From rubykelly at webtv.net Thu Apr 1 00:08:27 2004 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:08:27 -0000 Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94717 > All the books are filled with deliberate attempts to create false > impressions...that's what mystery stories are about! But when > you have all the facts, you see how you were led to misinterpret, > for example, Snape's actions at the first Quidditch match, or what > Quirrell meant when he said "C-can't t-tell you how p-pleased I > am to meet you." Rowling explains her attitude in the following > quote: > > Reader's Digest > December 2000 > J.K. Rowling: The Wizard Behind Harry Potter Tim Bouquet > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1200-readersdige > st-boquet.htm > > "Readers loved to be tricked, but not conned." > > IMO, if she says, "No" plainly and the answer turns out to be 'Yes' > that would be a con. But if she gives an obviously cagey answer, > and we let our own eagerness to have the matter settled supply > a certainty that isn't there, then we've conned ourselves, which is > a very different matter. I'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea > that Snape isn't a vampire, but she gave a cagey answer > because she hates to spoil a theory. But I can't see that she gave > a cagey answer because she wanted the matter closed. > > Pippin Pippin, that link didn't work; that, however, is not why I'm posting. I also think JKR gave a very cagey answer. Asking if Snape was "linked" to any vampires, as opposed to asking if he WAS one, certainly gives plenty of room. Supose we didn't know about Lupin's status as a werewolf-but suspected something along those lines. Consider the following possible exchange: "Is Prof. Lupin linked to any wereolves?" "Erm..." (you know the rest). Which would be misleading-but true! We know Lupin IS a werewolf, but never saw him "linked" to werewolves. As far as we know, he still isn't "linked" - which implies involvement with OTHER werewolves - even now. There's no mention of him being involved in Werewolf-Equality groups, or Werewoves Anonymous ("Hi, my name is Remus..."), he hasn't been outed as a member of the Werewolf Defense Force or a co-signer of the North Atlantic Werewolf Treaty Organization...or, well, anything. (It seems to me he could take a stance and stand up for himself as well as other werewolves since apparantly the WW knows about him; in fact organizing werewolves into demanding respect-AND the potion to treat the condition-would be more profitable than sitting around brooding. Of course, that would likely remove most of the motivation for him to have joined the DEs and be the traitor-to-the-Order theory as some have speculated. Lupin being a "half-blood" was also interesting, seeing as how theare no real "purebloods" and haven't been (remember in the CoS movie, when the Trio are in Hagrid's hut after Draco calls Hermione a mudblood? Haggrid explains that marrying Muggles or Muggle-borns kept the WW from dying out-in fact, he goes so far as saying that there's nobody more than a half-blood, nowadays? Coupl that with JKR discussing how important it is to get the movie scripts to include the vital info to the series "puzzle", along with her statement that all the info necessary to figuring things out is in CoS; not to mention all the "dead-ends" backwards as well as forwards in the Black family tree...hmmm...). I'm not saying I believe Snape IS a vampire, but it wouldn't surprise me. Most of the "vampire" clues could also regard other things as well, such as an Animagi form. (Does anyone else find it hard to believe young Severus would discover his bitter school rivals to be Animagi without attempting to achieve the sme ability?) Also, some of the "reasons" for the impossibility of Vampire Snape strike me as extremely silly (he wouldn't have aged since school being the silliest). There are a couple of vampire-invloved theories that would make sense in many ways: 1) Snape became a vampire at the end of GoF in order to spy on he DEs; 2) Snape ended up as a vampire while IN the DEs (managing to create a potion to endure sunlight); 3) Severus is a dhampir (half-vampire) of some kind, omething that could be nicely worked into the Perseus Evans anagram. How? Well...that's another post which I don't hve time for right now... She-Who-must-Go-Eat, (AKA) Kat/rxk From rubykelly at webtv.net Thu Apr 1 00:21:21 2004 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:21:21 -0000 Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94718 > All the books are filled with deliberate attempts to create false > impressions...that's what mystery stories are about! But when > you have all the facts, you see how you were led to misinterpret, > for example, Snape's actions at the first Quidditch match, or what > Quirrell meant when he said "C-can't t-tell you how p-pleased I > am to meet you." Rowling explains her attitude in the following > quote: > > Reader's Digest > December 2000 > J.K. Rowling: The Wizard Behind Harry Potter Tim Bouquet > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1200-readersdige > st-boquet.htm > > "Readers loved to be tricked, but not conned." > > IMO, if she says, "No" plainly and the answer turns out to be 'Yes' > that would be a con. But if she gives an obviously cagey answer, > and we let our own eagerness to have the matter settled supply > a certainty that isn't there, then we've conned ourselves, which is > a very different matter. I'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea > that Snape isn't a vampire, but she gave a cagey answer > because she hates to spoil a theory. But I can't see that she gave > a cagey answer because she wanted the matter closed. > > Pippin Pippin, that link didn't work; that, however, is not why I'm posting. I also think JKR gave a very cagey answer. Asking if Snape was "linked" to any vampires, as opposed to asking if he WAS one, certainly gives plenty of room. Supose we didn't know about Lupin's status as a werewolf-but suspected something along those lines. Consider the following possible exchange: "Is Prof. Lupin linked to any wereolves?" "Erm..." (you know the rest). Which would be misleading-but true! We know Lupin IS a werewolf, but never saw him "linked" to werewolves. As far as we know, he still isn't "linked" - which implies involvement with OTHER werewolves - even now. There's no mention of him being involved in Werewolf-Equality groups, or Werewoves Anonymous ("Hi, my name is Remus..."), he hasn't been outed as a member of the Werewolf Defense Force or a co-signer of the North Atlantic Werewolf Treaty Organization...or, well, anything. (It seems to me he could take a stance and stand up for himself as well as other werewolves since apparantly the WW knows about him; in fact organizing werewolves into demanding respect-AND the potion to treat the condition-would be more profitable than sitting around brooding. Of course, that would likely remove most of the motivation for him to have joined the DEs and be the traitor-to-the-Order theory as some have speculated. Lupin being a "half-blood" was also interesting, seeing as how theare no real "purebloods" and haven't been (remember in the CoS movie, when the Trio are in Hagrid's hut after Draco calls Hermione a mudblood? Haggrid explains that marrying Muggles or Muggle-borns kept the WW from dying out-in fact, he goes so far as saying that there's nobody more than a half-blood, nowadays? Coupl that with JKR discussing how important it is to get the movie scripts to include the vital info to the series "puzzle", along with her statement that all the info necessary to figuring things out is in CoS; not to mention all the "dead-ends" backwards as well as forwards in the Black family tree...hmmm...). I'm not saying I believe Snape IS a vampire, but it wouldn't surprise me. Most of the "vampire" clues could also regard other things as well, such as an Animagi form. (Does anyone else find it hard to believe young Severus would discover his bitter school rivals to be Animagi without attempting to achieve the sme ability?) Also, some of the "reasons" for the impossibility of Vampire Snape strike me as extremely silly (he wouldn't have aged since school being the silliest). There are a couple of vampire-invloved theories that would make sense in many ways: 1) Snape became a vampire at the end of GoF in order to spy on he DEs; 2) Snape ended up as a vampire while IN the DEs (managing to create a potion to endure sunlight); 3) Severus is a dhampir (half-vampire) of some kind, omething that could be nicely worked into the Perseus Evans anagram. How? Well...that's another post which I don't hve time for right now... She-Who-must-Go-Eat, (AKA) Kat/rxk From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 00:27:18 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:27:18 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94720 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Let's say, it had happened this way: Lupin comes out of the shower, > glances at the map and sees Pettigrew. Do you think he would have > dashed out without putting on his pants? No, but he might not zipped up, or put on his belt or his socks. Putting on one's trousers is a fairly ingrained thing, whereas taking a *monthly* potion is not. -Joe in SoFla From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 00:37:49 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:37:49 -0000 Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94724 snip Kat wrote: snip > I'm not saying I believe Snape IS a vampire, but it wouldn't surprise me. Most of the "vampire" clues could also regard other things as well, such as an Animagi form. (Does anyone else find it hard to believe young Severus would discover his bitter school rivals to be Animagi without attempting to achieve the sme ability?) snip Potioncat: I had a similar theory about Severus leaning to be an animagi for the same reason. But he didn't know. James rescued him as a human. 3) Severus is a dhampir (half-vampire) of some kind, omething that could be nicely worked into the Perseus Evans anagram. How? Well...that's another post which I don't hve time for right now... > Potioncat: The Perseus anagram interests me because Perseus also had a prophecy that affected his life and might explain the yelling man. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 00:40:05 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:40:05 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94725 Joe wrote: > > No, but he might not zipped up, or put on his belt or his socks. > Putting on one's trousers is a fairly ingrained thing, whereas > taking a *monthly* potion is not. > Potioncat responded: Want to bet? ;-) From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 00:43:52 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:43:52 -0000 Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > BTW, her answer didn't at all strike me as evasive. It's the kind of > thing you say, while raising your eyebrows - when a suggestion is > very very far from making sense. That was how it "sounded" to me the > moment I read it. There our paths must diverge. I took her answer to be (deliberately) vague. You must also keep in mind what the question was: "Is there a link between Snape and vampires?" And, MUCH more importantly, what it was *not*: "Is Snape a vampire?" To which the reply "Erm... I don't think so." can truthfully encompass a host of possibilities. If the question had been if Snape is a vampire, then the answer would have less wiggle room, but it wasn't. -Joe in SoFla From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 00:49:08 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:49:08 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: <20040331154508.82568.qmail@web14810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Vickey wrote: > Jen wrote: > > > On the heels of what happened the night before with > > Serverus' "severe disappointment", I'm very doubtful that Snape's > > motive was *primarily* the students safety. > > Joe wrote: > > >Student safety is a plausible cover for Snape, and >something of a > >bonus in outing Lupin. Especially since Snape has been >known to have > >a few passive-aggressive "Ooops!" moments. > > > How about a fear for his own safety?... He was almost attacked and would have been killed by Lupin as a boy...that is going to cause him to have some prejudices based in fear about werewolves, one in particular. He was probably uncomfortable being around Lupin, especially given how close he had to work with him. And fear is not always logical, even though it wouldn't have been Lupin's fault when they were kids, Severus will still resent him for it. > 1- This is the first time I have seen the notion of Snape having any fear. It doesn't jibe with someone willing to *betray* LV. 2- If that had been teh case, why would he leak the information to STUDENTS? -Joe in SoFla From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 01:02:25 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 01:02:25 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94729 > wrote: > > Jen wrote wrote: > > > > > On the heels of what happened the night before with > > > Serverus' "severe disappointment", I'm very doubtful that > Snape's > > > motive was *primarily* the students safety. > > > > Joe wrote: > > > > >Student safety is a plausible cover for Snape, and >something of > a > > >bonus in outing Lupin. Especially since Snape has been >known to > have > > >a few passive-aggressive "Ooops!" moments. > > > > snip< Potioncat: Joe, I love that line about "passive-aggressive Ooops moments." OK, so we have Severus Snape, trusted by DD. Who as a good officer, argues with his commanding officer in private and agrees and obeys in public. Then he slips and reveals Lupin's problem. Then he stops occlumency. There must be more going on here than we know about. Potioncat (who has recently produced a number of oneliners and OT posts and will think before posting least she annoys others.) From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Apr 1 00:49:02 2004 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:49:02 -0000 Subject: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94730 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > There. Now on to what you've said here. I think I *do* understand > what you're saying, Pippin, particularly about why Snape may see > this as war because he knows about the prophecy... and why he's not > allowed to explain all of that to Harry & Neville. I guess if all > of what you're describing *is* the true situation, then I'd say > we're back to my other argument: that, if it's really THAT > important for Snape to prepare these two particular students for > the inevitable battle(s) with Voldy, he's GOT to find a way to > reach them. Being cruel, sarcastic & nasty doesn't seem to be > cutting it w/ the two students who most need to learn, so why > doesn't he STOP the drill sergeant routine w/ them and find a way > to help them learn? SURELY he can *see* that it's not working with > them? > > Hmmmm. Maybe *that's* part of what I'm struggling with! If Snape > is as brilliant as I think he is, why isn't he able to see that his > methods AREN'T helping Neville & Harry to learn & to perform under > pressure? If he cares about The Order and defeating Voldy--as I > believe he does--then why isn't he re-evaluating his technique with > Harry & Neville? Perhaps because he knows that if Harry and Neville can't stand up to him at Hogwarts, if they can't perform under his gaze and insults, if they can't pay attention long enough to prepare his potion assignments correctly, if they can't marshall their fear and anger when they are frazzled, startled, or upset, then they don't stand a chance of defeating Voldemort? jujube (who is going to be extremely disappointed if, in book 7, Snape is revealed as a truly kindly soul, who wears daisies in his hair and confesses he felt "just awful" all of those years and would have much rather have been singing happy songs instead all that time) From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 01:09:31 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 01:09:31 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94732 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Any one of these steps would tell me Snape's primary interest is > getting the werewolf out of the school for *whatever* reason. What > he did is revenge. Not unmotivated revenge--no doubt there--but > revenge all the same. I am struck by how Lupin treats Snape *after* this episode (in Grimmauld Place, especially), in contrast to Sirius's treatment of Snape. If anyone had a "right" to treat Snape with contempt and derision, it's Lupin, but he doesn't. He doesn't call him "Snivellus" or throw his weight around. I get the sense that, on some level Lupin has forgiven Snape. -Joe in SoFla From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Apr 1 01:15:40 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 01:15:40 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94733 Jen: > > Snape, even if he was extremely fearful for his own or the > students > > safety, did not to our knowledge take one of these actions > > before 'outing' Lupin: > > > > A) Snape going to Lupin prior to outing him and say, "hey, I'm > > giving you a chance to leave first. If you don't, I'm telling > > everyone you're a werewolf"; > > > > B) Snape going to Dumbledore with basically the same > message--"take > > this chance to let Lupin go or I'm going to make his miserable > life > > more miserable"; or > > > > C) Snape talking to faculty and staff, then going to Dumbledore > > instead of the *students* for gosh sakes. Pippin: > I'm not sure I understand. The staff already knew that Lupin was > a werewolf, and there is a werewolf registry. Any future > employer would be able to find out, either by checking the > registry or asking for references. Jen: Where does it say an employer can check the werewolf registry? I'll concede defeat if that's true ;). In OOTP, Sirius tells the kids that Umbridge "drafted a bit of anti- werewolf legislation two years ago that makes it almost impossible for him to get a job." (US, chap. 14, p. 302) So prior to two years ago, a werewolf *could* get a job, even though it was difficult. Lupin states in POA he is "unable to find paid work because of what I am" (Chap. 18, US, p. 356). He doesn't say no one will hire him because the general public knows he's a werewolf. He can't hold down a job because of the inexplicable 3-4 days of unexcused absences every month. It's not like at school where he can tell his boss he's visiting his sick mother/had the flu/going to a funeral *every month*. That would make it difficult to get and keep a job. (And I just realized the time frame for that anti-werewolf legislation: Around the time Lupin was working at Hogwarts. Hmmmmm...) My point with the ABC options above was to show Snape had several avenues to get Lupin out of Hogwarts if that was his only agenda. Since he chose an option that also ensures the WW at large finds out Lupin is a werewolf, therefore further ostracizing him in the public eye, I contend Snape's *primary* motivation was other than the safety of Hogwarts. Pippin: > There are two different accounts of why Lupin quit. Hagrid says > he resigned "First thing this mornin'. Says he can't risk it > happenin' again." > > Lupin says that Snape "accidentally" let slip that he was a > werewolf, as if he would have stayed on if the news hadn't gotten > out. But then he says that the parents are right, it is too > dangerous for him to work at Hogwarts. Lupin himself told > Hagrid that he couldn't risk it happening again. If he would have > resigned anyway without pressure from the parents, then Snape > did no harm. If he wouldn't seriously have considered resigning > without pressure from the parents, then Snape was right. Jen: Being a werewolf is *not* the reason Lupin needed to resign. He didn't take his potion, he put people in danger, he didn't tell DD about the tunnels or the illegal animagi. Those are the reasons he needed to resign. The only thing Snape achieved by telling students Lupin was a werewolf was to make sure "everyone'd know by now" as Hagrid tells us in chap. 22, p. 422. Pippin: > We don't know whether Lupin, who resigned "first thing > this morning" did so before or after Snape made his "accidental" > announcement. Either way Snape's announcement did not force > Lupin's resignation. Lupin running loose on the grounds forced > his resignation. The only thing telling the students did was make > it harder for Lupin to reconsider his decision to quit. How is that revenge? Jen: Lupin forced his own resignation--agreed. Therefore Snape didn't need to pursue it. Why hit a man when he's down unless it's personal? Just ensuring Lupin left was not enough for Snape. He wanted Lupin to pay with his reputation and future. I call that revenge. From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 1 01:25:20 2004 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 01:25:20 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94734 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Joe wrote: > > > > No, but he might not zipped up, or put on his belt or his socks. > > Putting on one's trousers is a fairly ingrained thing, whereas > > taking a *monthly* potion is not. > > > Potioncat responded: > Want to bet? ;-) Alshain, adding her Knuts in defence of her favourite werewolf: What people seem to miss is that Lupin didn't have access to the Wolfsbane potion when he saw HRH on the map with Sirius & Peter, so putting on trousers after taking a shower is a false analogy. Lupin is in his office, examining the Marauder's Map for evidence that HRH might be sneaking out of the castle. Snape hasn't yet brought him the potion, which might or might not yet be ready (it's a question of interpretation whether Lupin needs to take it for a whole week of if it's enough that he takes it once or twice.) Lupin would have to get down to the dungeons first, find Snape and get the potion alt. wait until Snape had finished brewing it, then drink it. Only then run down to the Shrieking Shack, and if his suspicions about Sirius had been correct he'd have found three corpses. One of those tricky "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations where there is no right decision. Alshain From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 01:32:20 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 01:32:20 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Joe wrote: > > > > No, but he might not zipped up, or put on his belt or his socks. > > Putting on one's trousers is a fairly ingrained thing, whereas > > taking a *monthly* potion is not. > > > Potioncat responded: > Want to bet? ;-) As someone who has had to run out *in the middle of the night* (and several times in the course of serving a life sentence of matrimony) to get an equivalent (at least schedule-wise) to the Wolfsbane Potion...I think I might take that bet. :-) -Joe in SoFla From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 01:36:15 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 01:36:15 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Joe, I love that line about "passive-aggressive Ooops moments." It clicked in my head when I was rereading OotP and I came across the part when Snape gives HP a zero after--Oooops!--breaking HP's flask of potion (which I believe he did after he saw that HG had emptied out HP's cauldron). -Joe in SoFla From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 1 01:17:38 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 01:17:38 -0000 Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94737 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says "Kinda" like Hermione? Are you one of those who thinks she maybe shouldn't have jinxed the list? Or slapped Malfoy? Or led Umbridge into the Forbidden Forest? Hermione is as much a bitch as any Narcissa or Bellatrix type. Way too many plain, nerdy females slink around being nice and sweet and politically correct as if they had to compensate somehow for not contributing to the decor. Our girl has a mean streak and she's not afraid to indulge it. She's plain and totally not bothered about it. She's smart and not afraid to show it, even if it scares the boys away. And if you get on her sh*t list, she will jack you up definitively, without a moment of hesitation or a shred of compunction. Like Ron says in the movie, "...brilliant, but scary." Bravissima. --JDR From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 1 02:24:32 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 02:24:32 -0000 Subject: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94738 Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > Hmmmm. Maybe *that's* part of what I'm struggling with! If > > Snape is as brilliant as I think he is, why isn't he able to see > > that his methods AREN'T helping Neville & Harry to learn & to > > perform under pressure? If he cares about The Order and > > defeating Voldy--as I believe he does--then why isn't he re- > > evaluating his technique with Harry & Neville? jujube: > Perhaps because he knows that if Harry and Neville can't stand up > to him at Hogwarts, if they can't perform under his gaze and > insults, if they can't pay attention long enough to prepare his > potion assignments correctly, if they can't marshall their fear > and anger when they are frazzled, startled, or upset, then they > don't stand a chance of defeating Voldemort? Siriusly Snapey Susan: I do believe we're all beginning to talk in circles on this topic. :- ) My big thing with this is that I think a teacher can get away w/ pressuring & really high expectations if there is *trust* from the beginning. I think if there is no trust, if the main student reaction from day one is fear or anger [vs. respect or trust], then the student may "freeze" or "lock" and not learn as effectively as they can. So what I'm offering is that if Snape had TONED IT DOWN at the beginning--LET Harry & Neville gain a little confidence and get some lessons under their belts--THEN, if Snape felt the best way to teach these two to handle the pressure would be to really turn UP the pressure, then okey-dokey. But you've got to give the kids a taste of success or a sense that they want to/can succeed before you do so. At least when you're talking about 11- or 12-year-olds. IMHO, of course. ;-) At this point many of us are sharing our *own* experiences as either teacher or student or drill sergeant or trainee in order to explain our position. Because I taught and worked w/ this age group I believe a certain thing. Because someone else taught or was in the military and learned a different way, he/she believes a different thing. I'm not sure we're ever going to come closer together on this one.... > jujube (who is going to be extremely disappointed if, in book 7, > Snape is revealed as a truly kindly soul, who wears daisies in his > hair and confesses he felt "just awful" all of those years and > would have much rather have been singing happy songs instead all > that time) Siriusly Snapey Susan: Oh, good lord, I hope not, too! I want Sevvie to live, and I don't want him to be 100% miserable for the rest of his life, and I'd like to see a little bit of his ability to care, but I'd never want to be told that ALL this sarcastic nastiness was an act! I'm w/ you on that much at least. Oh--but I wouldn't mind if he learned to wash his hair more often, either. Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 02:25:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 02:25:29 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94739 x > > Alshain, adding her Knuts in defence of her favourite werewolf: x > > Lupin is in his office, examining the Marauder's Map for evidence > that HRH might be sneaking out of the castle. Snape hasn't yet > brought him the potion, which might or might not yet be ready (it's a > question of interpretation whether Lupin needs to take it for a whole > week of if it's enough that he takes it once or twice.) Lupin would > have to get down to the dungeons first, find Snape and get the potion > alt. wait until Snape had finished brewing it, then drink it. Only > then run down to the Shrieking Shack, and if his suspicions about > Sirius had been correct he'd have found three corpses. One of those > tricky "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations where there > is no right decision. > Potioncat: Or, Lupin can contact Snape and/or DD via floo and say, "I need the potion now, There's an emergency. We have to get to the Shrieking Shack!" Then maybe he goes too or maybe he stays behind. I will concede, that by the same token, Snape should have let DD know he was going after Lupin and the others. Except that Snape wasn't going to turn into a werewolf. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 02:32:26 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 02:32:26 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94740 Joe wrote: > > > Putting on one's trousers is a fairly ingrained thing, whereas > > > taking a *monthly* potion is not. > > > > > Potioncat responded: > > Want to bet? ;-) > > As someone who has had to run out *in the middle of the night* (and > several times in the course of serving a life sentence of matrimony) > to get an equivalent (at least schedule-wise) to the Wolfsbane > Potion...I think I might take that bet. :-) Potioncat: OK, good point. Joe wrote: >I am struck by how Lupin treats Snape *after* this episode (in Grimmauld Place, especially), in contrast to Sirius's treatment of Snape. If anyone had a "right" to treat Snape with contempt and derision, it's Lupin, but he doesn't. He doesn't call him "Snivellus" or throw his weight around. I get the sense that, on some level Lupin has forgiven Snape. Potioncat who has successfully cut and paste two posts together. I think you have a good point. I think Lupin was feeling pretty guilty for some of his poor judgement. JKR has said that Lupin goes out of his way to be friendly due to the experiences he's had. So it would figure that he would let it go. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 1 02:35:24 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 02:35:24 -0000 Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94741 Siriusly Snapey Susan: > I'm sorry, JDR, but I think this goes way too far. It might be > nice if you were to phrase this as an opinion. Some of us > actually kinda like Hermione...>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > "Kinda" like Hermione? Are you one of those who thinks she maybe > shouldn't have jinxed the list? Or slapped Malfoy? Or led Umbridge > into the Forbidden Forest? > > Hermione is as much a bitch as any Narcissa or Bellatrix type. Way > too many plain, nerdy females slink around being nice and sweet > and politically correct as if they had to compensate somehow for > not contributing to the decor. > > Our girl has a mean streak and she's not afraid to indulge it. > She's plain and totally not bothered about it. She's smart and not > afraid to show it, even if it scares the boys away. And if you get > on her sh*t list, she will jack you up definitively, without a > moment of hesitation or a shred of compunction. Like Ron says in > the movie, "...brilliant, but scary." > > Bravissima. > > --JDR No, I'm NOT one of those who thinks Hermione shouldn't have slugged Draco nor jinxed the DA list. "Kinda" wasn't meant to imply wishy- washyness so much as that I didn't want to come across as holding a strident, "I love Hermione & believe she has *no* faults" position. I did address this earlier today [#94673], when I responded to someone who said they believed you meant "bitch" in a positive light. I simply hadn't been sure from reading your post whether that's what you meant, and I've not been around HPfGU long enough to know posthaste who the big Hermione supporters are. Now that I know you did mean that in a positive light, fine. Although I prefer a less *loaded* word than bitch to describe our Hermione's strength & brass. Semantics, I guess. Siriusly Snapey Susan From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Thu Apr 1 02:50:08 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:50:08 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius? References: Message-ID: <001f01c41794$0b578420$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 94742 Now that I know you did mean that in a positive light, fine. Although I prefer a less *loaded* word than bitch to describe our Hermione's strength & brass. Semantics, I guess. Siriusly Snapey Susan {Silverthorne} Again, got to agree with you here, SSSusan...spirited, untamable, undaunted, opinionated, strong willed, stubborn, even "shrewish and underhanded" for her more slytherin-like moments...^^; "Bitch" connotates (at least to me), a woman who is completely self absorbed and has absolutely no redeeming qualities at all...not at all Hermione... *Shrugs* It all comes down to semantics, as SSS pointed out, though...^^; As long as no one confuses her for a female dog, I suppose we're doing okay...O.O ************************************* Anne/Silverthorne Silverthorne.Dragon at verizon.net (Nights and Weekends) Anne-TMC-RCVG.Campbell at tenetheath.com (6am-3pm American Central, Mon-Fri.) "It is better to die than to loose your wrench"--Paraphrased from a former Navy Mechanic. From bufo_viridis at interia.pl Thu Apr 1 03:15:26 2004 From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl) Date: 01 Apr 2004 05:15:26 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Harry is a Gary Stu? (was: Mary Sue) Message-ID: <20040401031526.470D432F112@front.interia.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 94744 > Neri again: > Even though I let JKR get away with everything I could, > Harry Potter is definitely a Gary Stu. I also suspect that if we > could have all the real answers form JKR, Hermione would have turn > out to be a Mary Sue. So all of you fanfic writers with Mary > sues/Gary Stus hidden in their drawers, there is still hope. To be a MS/GS charcter needs to be self insert AND be badly written. Disregarding he first one, the second condition is not fullfilled, so Harry is not a GS. Cheers, Viridis P.S. Probaly soom we'll be discussing Tonks :) ________________________ Curiouser and curiouser! From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 03:24:45 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 03:24:45 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a Gary Stu? (was: Mary Sue) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94745 First, many thanks to Star Opal, who posted this link in the "Mary Sue" thread: http://missy.reimer.com/library/marysue.html This site is a lot of fun. It is the Original Mary Sue Litmus Test by Melissa "Merlin Missy" Wilson, constructed to determine if the hero/ine of your fanfic is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Since I don't have any plans to write fanfic in the near future (but I have several very good plot ideas if someone's interested) I immediately tested JKR and Harry. The results are below. I paste only the sections in which JKR scores Mary sue/Gary Stu points. ---------------------------------------- Note: The test was written for Gargoyles fan fiction but as you'll see it is very relevant to HP. Another note: In any question in which there was even the slightest doubt, I let JKR get away with it. For example, here is one of the questions: "If someone tells you he/she doesn't like your character, do you take it as a personal attack on you?[1]" If the answer is positive you need to add [1] point to your total. Since we can't be sure of JKR's answer I let her get away with no points. Here is another example question: "Would you like to be friends with the character if you met in real life?[1]" The answer is almost certainly "yes", but still I let JKR get away with no points (hey, I'm feeling generous today). Ok, lets get on with it: ------------------------------------------ Section 1 - The Name Game Is the character's name in the title of the story or is the title otherwise a description of the character? (i.e. "The Girl Who Could Fly")[5] Section 2 - Physical Attributes Is the character from the same racial group as you?[1] Is the character a teenager or in her/his early twenties?[1] Does the character have an unusual eye color for no apparent reason? [3] Will this be a plot point later?[1] Does the character have a scar or a strange marking that is noticed by another character, but does not actually detract from his/her appearance?[1] Section 3 - Personal Traits Was the character adopted or did he/she otherwise live with people who were not his/her parents as a child?[1] Add points for each aspect seen somewhere during your character's life: - sole survivor of a calamity[2] Did the character have an unusual birth or unusual experience in early infancy? (i.e. abducted, placed in a basket and set afloat, visited by Three Weirdos, etc.)[1] Section 4 - Super Powers Does the character, not being fay, have magical/mutant powers anyway? [2] Can the character fly?[1] Without the aid of wings?[2] Section 5 - The Love Connection {Neri notes: JKR manages to get away with no points in this section!} Section 7 - The Fiendish Plot Do you tell the story from the character's point of view, all or mostly?[1] Does the character save the day and/or another character's life?[3] Through magical/mystical intervention?[1] Do you plan to write many more stories revolving around this character?[2] --------------------------------------------------------------- {Neri notes: JKR's total is 28 points. We proceed to the evaluation phase...} Possible Points: 170 (assuming some questions obviate the rest) Preliminary testing suggests the following basic scoring scheme: 0-14 Developed character, unlikely MS. 15-20 Borderline character. Characters in this range are potential MS's, who can go either way dependent on the author's skill. 21+ Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Proceed with greatest caution. 35+ Reconsider your character and plot. Please. Neri again: Even though I let JKR get away with everything I could, Harry Potter is definitely a Gary Stu. I also suspect, although I didn't bother to check it, that Hermione is a Mary Sue. So all of you fanfic writers with Mary sues/Gary Stus hidden in their drawers, there is still hope! Neri From Batchevra at aol.com Thu Apr 1 03:30:38 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:30:38 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment Message-ID: <1cc.1d5396b2.2d9ce6de@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94746 In a message dated 3/31/04 6:37:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: Batchevra wrote: Look, Lupin was distracted that night by what he saw on the map, his > old friend Sirius and Pettigrew, seeing them go down into the Whomping Willow. > Batchevra > > Potioncat: Let's say, it had happened this way: Lupin comes out of the shower, glances at the map and sees Pettigrew. Do you think he would have dashed out without putting on his pants? I know both Harry and Snape somethimes dash off without telling anyone, but Lupin has no excuse this time. But we know he wasn't in the shower, he was specifically looking at the map. He says so in the chapter. Lupin said that he was looking at the map because he knew that Harry, Ron and Hermione were going to see Hagrid about Buckbeak, what he didn't expect to see was Pettigrew's name on the map, and then see Sirius on it. He saw them go into the Whomping Willow and thought that some action would need to be taken. Although Harry has time to kill Sirius, what if the moment had gone on longer? Would Harry have then decided to kill Sirius? Lupin prevented Harry from harming Sirius and allowed for the back story to take place. I for one, believe that Lupin did forget to take the potion, as it wasn't a daily routine. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Apr 1 03:36:19 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:36:19 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...) Message-ID: <7f.4480687f.2d9ce833@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94747 In a message dated 3/31/2004 11:15:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: Even if Dumbledore secretly believed that Voldie will come back all these years (that begs the question though why he hired those grossly incompetent DADA teachers, if he wanted to prepare chidren for upcoming war), Hogwarts is not an "auror" training school, it is a civilian institution and eleven year olds come there not to start their military training (although theyc an sure do it later, if they want to) ========================= Sherrie here: No, they're not all going to be Aurors - but neither will the war be fought only BY Aurors. VW II is NOT going to be a CNN war, where some fight with smart bombs & other "clean" weapons while most watch Wolf Blitzer commentate - it's going to be an old-fashioned, down-&-dirty war, where no one can afford to stand aloof, because the fighting's going to be in YOUR town, on YOUR street, in YOUR yard... It's going to be Fredericksburg, Gettysburg, Stalingrad - and these children are future citizens of the Wizarding World - most of them, if we are correct and Hogwarts becomes a battleground, will see combat before they graduate (some before they have to shave). Every one of them had better be ready to fight, when - not IF - the time comes. My two Knuts (okay, maybe three this time) - as ever, YMMV. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Batchevra at aol.com Thu Apr 1 03:46:17 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:46:17 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94748 In a message dated 3/31/04 8:36:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: > > Jen wrote: I can't believe Snape 'spilling the beans' about Lupin was > *more* about the student's best interest and *less* about Snape's > best interest. I'm quantifying here because I do believe Snape > recognizes the potential danger of having a werewolf around more > than anyone else at Hogwarts. > > snip< > On the heels of what happened the night before with > Serverus' "severe disappointment", I'm very doubtful that Snape's > motive was *primarily* the students safety. Potioncat: Interesting, isn't it, that from time to time we see Snape go against DD, yet there never seems to be any consequence. Of course, we don't get to sit in at the annual review. I'd like to know from JKR what was behind Snape's slip of the tongue about Lupin and behind the end of occlumency lessons. But I really do think he was sincere in his distrust of Lupin and Black, and that it wasn't just spite. Potioncat Look, Snape does have legitimate reasons for hating Sirius, but we still don't know the whole back story of Snape and MWPP. But Snape is an adult and shouldn't take his anger of someone's father out on the son. As for Lupin, he wasn't in on the Prank, and I think of he had been told about what Sirius had done, he would have absolutely vetoed it, but he wasn't consulted about it, and we learn also that James was told about it and got Snape out of there. Snape is still in the past, and he is reacting and responding in a spiteful manner. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From EnsTren at aol.com Thu Apr 1 03:43:41 2004 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:43:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Harry is a Gary Stu? (was: Mary Sue) Message-ID: <38A94C62.7E4B6EDB.00170183@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94749 In a message dated 3/31/2004 10:15:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, bufo_viridis at interia.pl writes: > To be a MS/GS charcter needs to be self insert AND be badly written. Disregarding he first one, the second condition is > not fullfilled, so Harry is not a GS. > Eh...no. Self Insters are /Usually/ Mary Sues, and visa versa, but they don't have to be. Likewise, you can write a good fic with a Mary sue, it's just very very hard. Infact, Mary Sues can be hidden in good technical aspects, even a moderately passable story line. But that doesn't meanit's not... I think the best description for a Mary Sue is "cheap" Furthermore, the prevalance of "Harry Sues" (putting harry over the top. In Buffy there are "Willow Sues") in fanfic is because...well he's already one, but so "stupid" he doesn't take advantage of anything. Harry Sues are usually "Shape up" fics. > Cheers, Viridis > P.S. Probaly soom we'll be discussing Tonks :) Nemi From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 04:07:35 2004 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 04:07:35 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a Gary Stu? (was: Mary Sue) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94750 > Section 4 - Super Powers > > Does the character, not being fay, have magical/mutant powers anyway? > [2] > Can the character fly?[1] > Without the aid of wings?[2] I think this is unfair to give points here-if it were Harry alone you could give points but as that is the world in which she is working in I don't think you can do it. I don't think that test is accurate either. Take any main character from any book and most likely any of them would qualify-we read books about characters because the characters are different in some way or interesting in some way. Who wants to read a story about someone just like yourself? A Mary Sue/Gary Stu to me is a character that is 1)a self-insertion and 2) badly written. I do not see Harry as badly written nor do I see him as a self-insertion. Yes, he probably has *elements* of self- insertion (he shares a birthday with JKR) but that does not mean he is a Gary Stu. How many people can write something *without* any type of self-insertion in the character? I don't think anyone can simply because you are the one writing and therefore you write what you know to a certain extent whether you like it or not. I think I have lost track of my point here, but anyway, just some ideas. Kateydidnt From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 04:14:39 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 04:14:39 -0000 Subject: Handsomeness and Hermione (Was: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94751 Joe wrote: > In reality I don't know. The handsomeness thing throws a big > wrench/spanner into my thinking on this matter. I shall cogitate and > report back any suitable results. > > > * But who HAS? Sirius, at least as "once-handsome," and Cedric...was > Lockhart? anyone else? Carol, who hopes the List Elves won't mind a teeny post: You're forgetting the handsome and charming Tom Riddle. Not that he's much help in a SHipping post. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 04:33:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 04:33:34 -0000 Subject: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94752 > > Bonny wrote: So far as I can tell, there must be two Fawcett girls (at least) one in Ravenclaw (who tried to cross Dumbledores age line and came out with a beard) and one in Hufflepuff (who was blasted out of a rose bush by Snape). I believe I have heard them mentioned before as well, but I don't have time to re-read the series right now and make sure. maybe it is with one of these girls that Harry will have a little romance; we already know that Ms. Fawcett of Hufflepuff isn't opposed to a little kissing I (Carol) responded: I like your reasoning and agree that we'll be seeing Miss Fawcett in Book 6, but I think there's only one of her. The girl in the rosebushes in GoF is a Ravenclaw (adventurously kissing a Hufflepuff boy): "Ten points from Ravenclaw, Fawcett!" Snape snarled as a girl ran past him. "And ten points from Hufflepuff, too, Stebbins!" (GoF 426). Bonny wrote: > > Which edition of the book are you reading, Carol? Because I am > referencing from the canadian printing, raincoast publishing, and in > my book the above quote is written as such: > "Ten points from Hufflepuff, Fawcett!' Snape snarled, as a girl ran past him. 'And ten points from Ravenclaw, too, Stebbins!' as a boy went rushing after her." > > That is on page 371. I am assuming there must be an error in one or > the other of our copies. Carol responds: Oh, good heavens! Not another discrepancy! Mine is the First Scholastic Trade Paperback, copyright 2000 but printed in 2002. it contains the correction in the order of the "echoes" coming out of Voldemort's wand in the "Priori Incantatem" chapter, which to me suggests that it may contain other corrections as well. (My apologies for forgetting to put "Am. ed." but maybe it's a felicitous blunder in this case.) What's the year on yours? (Anybody with a corrected UK edition ca. 2002?) BTW, I think the error is in the Canadian edition because Miss Fawcett has already been identified as being in Ravenclaw in the age line scene and JKR (or an editor) wanted to make it consistent. (A change like that would not have been made by an editor without JKR's consent.) Carol From a_williams1 at pacific.edu Thu Apr 1 04:48:43 2004 From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:48:43 -0800 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor) References: <001301c4168c$c9916cc0$871d0f0a@bre.uop.edu> Message-ID: <005201c417a4$9c7671e0$871d0f0a@bre.uop.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 94753 >1. According to the Daily Prophet, the High Inquisitor position was the result of "surprise legislation" >passed by the Ministry on a Sunday night. Who passed that legislation? A legislative body? If >so, who is it composed of? How is it chosen? Why wasn't it mentioned by name? Well, I didn't really think that it was any body- I thought it was the Minister himself. Otherwise I would assume that it would be the Wizengamot that was involved, and perhaps Fudge rounded up those who were on his side at Harry's trial to pass some questionable legislation. But really, I just thought it was Fudge, maybe Percy and Delores that put it into effect. >2. The Daily Prophet quotes Percy Wesley extensively. How enthusiastic do you think his support really >is? Does he honestly believe what he says, is he doing it to get ahead of the Ministry, or does he really >think he owes unquestioning obedience to his superiors? How does the Percy we see here square with the >Percy we saw in PS/SS who admired Dumbledore's brilliance? I don't believe in Double Agent!Percy, and I think he truly is supportive of Delores and Fudge throughout the book, although some of him is brown-nosing. I think that Percy is blindly patriotic; he doesn't believe his government can do any wrong, especially those he's held in such high esteem for so long (Barty Crouch, Fudge). I think his problem is just that he doesn't believe the Ministry would truly put the entire Wizarding population (well, and the world) in there was a chance Voldemort was alive and well. >4. Does it seem out of character for the grade-obsessed Hermione to be quizzing Fred and George (of all >people) about OWL grades? Why didn't she research this like she researches everything else? Do you >think JKR did this purposefully? If so, why? Well, I didn't really think it was strange. My book is at home (and I'm 500 miles away at school) so I'm not exactly sure, but wasn't she asking what the letters meant? I don't know, maybe just because I didn't really expect that there'd be a lot of material written about OWLS, and their structure, and what everything meant... that's what the teachers are there to explain. >5. What did Umbridge hoped to achieve through the inspections? Has she targeted certain professors (we >learn that Flitwick's was "no big deal")? Does she have a hidden agenda beyond discrediting Dumbledore, >and if so, what is it? Is JKR using Umbridge to lampoon government interference in education? I think Umbridge's sole purpose with the inspections was to monitor what the children are learning in school. The Ministry needs to make sure that Dumbledore's anti-Ministry attitude isn't being passed on to the faculty and students at the school. She may have been looking for what she would deem inappropriate questions and stuff- to make sure that the other classes are being run like hers, and students aren't being allowed to question the teachers or the Ministry. I don't know about JKR making a statement about government interference, but I will say that I was uncomfortable (for lack of a better term) through the entire book because of the Ministry's actions, reigning in and punishing anyone who had the nerve to question the Ministry or the Minister... or believe in an alternative truth. >6. How can Umbridge possibly have enough time to inspect so many classes *and* teach all the DADA >classes as well? I don't know, I wondered this too. She has 7 DADA classes, and how often throughout the week do they meet? Perhaps she went to classes on alternate days... or... yeah, I don't know. >7. Did you guess after reading Trelawney's inspection that Trelawney's hiring had to do with her first >correct predicion? And did anyone mark the fact that Trelawney's dire prediction for Umbridge came true >in the Forbidden Forest? No to both... I guess I"m a little dense. I wish I had the book here to read the prediction. Hmmm. >8. What, if anything, does the revelation of McGonagall's December starting date at Hogwarts signify? Is >this a clue to a significant backstory, or a red herring? I don't think her hiring date means anything significant. Like many have said, maybe that's when Dippet died and they needed a new Transfiguration teacher. I wonder what McGonagall did before teaching Transfiguration. Did she teach another subject at the school? Did she have another career? Was she a housewife? Aesha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 05:54:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 05:54:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's disposition - the WW doesn't deal with pain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94754 > Del wrote: > > I've been thinking about this, while reading the various posts of > this thread which all make very good points. And it became more and > more obvious that there's a very simple answer to all those points : > there's no such thing as emotional or psychological support in the > WW. Not just for Harry I mean, but for *anyone*. > > We all keep wondering why Harry, or Sirius, or whoever, doesn't get > the emotional support they need. But in the books, nobody seems to > care or wonder about it. It just seems that people are *expected* to > just swallow whatever is thrown at them, smile, and go on. I mean, > how many times do we see anyone offering any kind of support to > someone else ? It does happen, but it's very rare. > > I can think of Mrs Weasley for example, but even she's not terribly > good at it : she keeps wanting to hide things from Harry when > knowledge would be his best weapon, she doesn't seem to realise how > much help Sirius needs, she doesn't seem to see Ron's lack of self- > confidence, etc... (Don't get me wrong : I truly appreciate > everything Molly does for Harry, and I wish I could personally thank > her for that hug she gave him at the end of GoF.) I just mean to > point out that she doesn't seem to be able to pinpoint very well who > might be in need of help, and when, and how to give it. And she's > the most caring person we know of in the entire WW... Scary, huh ? > > The other one we see trying to help is Hermione. But Hermione is > *Muggle-born* ! She was raised in a world where people are supposed > to help friends in need, including emotionally. But because she's > got no adults around her to help her figure out *how* to do it, > she's sometimes too blunt about it, or on the contrary too subtle, > and her efforts fail. Or sometimes, Ron, who was raised in the WW > world, stops her, like in the example above. > > One thing that really deeply struck me is that nobody among the > students knows about Neville's parents. I remember wondering, way > before GoF came out, how come Neville was raised by his Gran. I was > a bit surprised that nobody asked him. It's the kind of thing we > asked our friends/classmates when I was a kid. We didn't invade each > other's lives, but we did know the basics : whose dad was dead, > whose parents were divorced, etc... Of course, things like whose mom > was in prison, or whose little brother was killed in a car accident > didn't come out at first, but they often did in the end, after a few > months. So when I read the St Mungo's scene in OoP, and realised > that *nobody* at school, not even *Hermione*, knew about Neville's > parents, I knew something was very different with the WW. Alice and > Frank Longbottom were supposed to be very popular, what happened to > them is supposed to have traumatised the WW, and yet not one single > parent mentioned the thing to their kid !?!? Not even *Draco > Malfoy*, who always knows everything before everyone else, seems to > know about it, he never ever taunts Neville about it, and I don't > see why he wouldn't if he knew. I think this is very telling of the > WW's inability to face trauma and pain. They don't talk about it, > they don't help victims, they just pretend nothing happened and > expect victims to get better on their own. > I remember being so glad to see an adult (Moody) taking care of an > obviously traumatised Neville after the Unforgivables lesson. But I > also remember being *surprised* somehow. Now I know why : it never > happened before (an adult giving spontaneous emotional support to > one of the kids, I mean). The closest I can remember is McGonagall's > gentleness with Harry and Ron when leading them to petrified > Hermione, and you can't really call that emotional support, can > you ? (I also remember being bitterly disappointed at the end of > GoF, when it appeared that Fake!Moody had taken care of Neville only > in order to advance his plans, but that's a whole other matter, and > at least it *did* do some good to Neville !) > > Just look at Cho as one last example if you're not convinced. The > girl lost her boy-friend, she doesn't even know how, she suspects he > might have been killed by a mass murderer, the whole WW acts as > though it never happened, she's going out with the last person on > Earth she should be dating in those circumstances, she's melting in > big puddles every 5 feet, and yet I'm ready to bet the entire > content of my vault in Gringotts that she never received any help > beyond her mom's arms !! > Carol: I couldn't bring myself to snip anything beyond the first few words of this thoughtful post. I think you're right that the WW has a different view of pain than we do (especially in the last two decades). As I mentioned in another post, punishments we would consider barbaric were still tolerated when Arthur and Molly were in school, so it's no wonder that Dumbledore is so complaisant about Snape or that Snape (IMO) thinks his teaching methods will force the students, especially Harry, to learn what they need to know for VW2, or that students hex each other in the corridors or the Hogwarts Express with no remorse, or that Gran is so strict with Neville. What seems like abuse or cruelty to us is normal to them (with the possible exception of forcing a house-elf to iron his hands, which would be extreme even by WW standards). Snape and Gran aside, I agree that the WW either sees no need to comfort those who suffer pain (it's part of life; you have to learn to tolerate it) or they don't know how to do so. I think, too (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that there's a bit of the stiff-upper-lip British boys' school culture here. Harry won't complain about Umbridge's cruel punishment; he won't let her see him suffer; even when he finally tells Ron and Hermione about it, he won't go to Dumbledore or McGonagall. (He doesn't want to "rat" on someone, either, even if that person is wholly despicable like Umbridge.) I haven't gone back to count, but I remember noticing the adjective "bracingly" used rather frequently. George, for example, will say something to Ron or Harry to "brace" or strengthen him to face whatever the problem or challenge is. A few encouraging words and everything will be all right. That, and an occasional hug from Mrs. Weasley or a "I know yeh can do it!" from Hagrid appears to be all the encouragement that harry or anyone else receives (unless we count a "well done!" or two from Flitwick for Hermione). The odd thing, though, is that the Muggle world as represented by the Dursleys (the Grangers are no doubt a different matter) is in some respects similar to the WW in its tolerance of abuse and bullying. Dudley and his fellow students at Smeltings are taught to hit each other with a Smelting stick to learn "manliness" (bullying) or pain tolerance or both. Harry is punished rather than disciplined and expected to accept his various punishments without protest. (Dudley isn't disciplined at all, but that's another matter.) Maybe Harry's placement with these particular Muggles has somehow prepared him for the WW. I'm not saying that's right or good, only that there's a strange similarity here. To return to Del's point, I won't go quite so far as to say "there's no such thing as emotional or psychological support in the WW," but that support does seem to be limited and largely ineffectual. Their world is not our world; their standards are not our standards. I've said elsewhere that Wizards seem to be physically tougher than we are: you can't kill them in a car accident or by burning at the stake. Maybe (with the exception of Neville) they're emotionally tougher as well? I'm not condoning abuse or neglect (as we define them) or advocating a stiff upper lip, tough-love approach. I'm just trying to understand why Harry and Neville and Cho are left to deal with their own grief and why Dumbledore would allow the supposed Moody to Imperio his students. It makes sense only in a world with the values we held a century or more ago when corporal punishment was the norm in schools and sensitve boys were regarded as sissies. Comments, anybody? I'm trying to see the WW as it's presented in the books, without judging it or imposing modern, RW standards on it. Carol From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Apr 1 02:31:59 2004 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 02:31:59 -0000 Subject: feelings...nothing more than feelings... (was: Re: Harry's disposition ) In-Reply-To: <20040331185757.A1FCA1EC7B6@front.interia.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94755 I've been reading the thread on Harry's disposition and the perceived lack of warmth, and emotion, in the WW on the part of some listmembers with great interest and offer these comments in general response to what I've read. What I find really interesting is the idea that Harry is without a support network. OK, so summers with his aunt and uncle are pretty awful. But now we know, after OoP, that as miserable as it is, Harry now knows that his aunt promised to take care of him, and there's a certain amount of comfort, and some power, in that. And so I'm eagerly anticipating his return to Privet Drive, especially after that information and the Howler that Petunia received--now he knows, and now Petunia knows he knows. Oh, I know it's going to be as aggravating, and as hurtful as usual for him, but I wonder if there might now be something else added there--maybe some gratitude on his part and some admiration her part. Don't worry, I'm not getting carried away. But suddenly Privet Drive is literally a sanctuary; a place where Harry is safe via his mother's love, and because of his aunt's loyalty. I also don't see Harry as being let down by the people around him because to some extent he seeks out these situations where he ends up in trouble. Yes, Snape could have handled the Occlumency lessons better. But Harry opted, of his own free will, not to practice and not to close mind to the visions he was having. Harry opted to use the Maurader's Map. Harry opted to do a lot of the things which put him into danger (not all of them, mind you). But he's not a passive victim. He's a an active, willful, boy who makes his own choices and then has to deal with the consequences. And when he's at Hogwarts I think he has a lot of support. Certainly (at least it seems so to me) he spends more time with Dumbledore than anyone else, and is very close to Dumbledore's heart. The Weasleys have truly taken him in. He has Hagrid. He has friends. And even with the loss of Sirius, he has other elders who are there for him if he needs comfort or counsel--it's that so often he's engaged in behavior he can't or won't tell them about, so he can't necessarily avail himself of it. To me, also, the WW seems pretty emotional. Certainly we see all of the same emotions we do in the Muggle world: the concern and care-- paternal love, even--of Dumbledore and Hagrid; the jealousy and malevolence of Snape; the annoyance and humor of McGonigal (especially in OoP with respect to Umbridge). Furthermore, and then I'll get off this hobby horse for tonight, Harry is in greater danger if he is coddled and cosseted. He's got a daunting, if not seemingly impossible, task ahead of him. He can't risk--the WW can't risk--missing any chance for his character to be tempered. jujube (who really has to go do some other things this evening, like pack for a trip, but is enjoying herself too much with these interesting discussion) From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Apr 1 02:02:58 2004 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 02:02:58 -0000 Subject: Harry enjoying his friends pain (was: Harry's disposition) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Yes, indeed. And I also have to wonder about what Dumbledore said, > about Voldemort's great talent for spreading discord and enmity, > because Harry is cetainly not the only one to go all fratchety in > this book (though he does have the best excuse IMO). I'm not > asserting that Voldemort is magically affecting their tempers; it > could be just the stress and worry he causes along with the ripple > effect everyone's responses have on each other. Things are going > to get even worse, so they'll *all* have to learn to master > themselves. And the most dangerous thing is that Voldemort doesn't have to magically affect their tempers (or their emotions) in order to disrupt any organized defenses against them--they are all fully capable of doing that themselves. To me, the truly dangerous thing is not just that the stress and worry about Voldemort's presence and the ripple effect and widens already existing cracks, but that it can cause fractures in formerly smooth surfaces. I'm going to be especially interested in how Snape handles this pressure; in some ways I think he's the counterpoint to Harry, and the each function as a way for the other to see what would happen if they made different choices. jujube (who will stop here on that last point since although she's trying to get up to speed on things is also not sure if she's retreading old ground) From rbturner_1980 at msn.com Thu Apr 1 02:58:12 2004 From: rbturner_1980 at msn.com (robert b turner) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:58:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Couldn't Ron and Hermione Hear the Basilisk? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94757 >From: "Robert Jones" >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Couldn't Ron and Hermione Hear the Basilisk? It could have sounded like background noise to them so they would not have given it a second thought. "robert b turner" From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 03:33:09 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:33:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: No one was to blame... I think. In-Reply-To: <1080769696.8237.334.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040401033309.69367.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94758 <> Lurker, here! I don't have my books with me at my dorm, but as far as I remember, Lupin didn't actually *have* the potion. Isn't that why Snape stopped in Lupin's office and saw the Marauder's Map? To deliver the wolfsbane? I don't see why Snape would merely stop in to see if Lupin drank it, since Snape isn't very fond of Remus and also would have no reason to suspect that he had forgotten to drink it. So, couldn't it be that Remus saw Peter's name on the map, but couldn't wait around for Snape to show up because there was the chance that at that *very* moment, Harry and company were in mortal danger? Please correct me if I'm wrong about why Snape came to visit Lupin! Justine --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 04:25:10 2004 From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (Vickey) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:25:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040401042510.58350.qmail@web14811.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94759 jmgarciaiii wrote: Willowsgreyghost wrote: > How about a fear for his own safety?... He was almost attacked and would have been killed by Lupin as a boy...that is going to cause him to have some prejudices based in fear about werewolves, one in particular. He was probably uncomfortable being around Lupin, especially given how close he had to work with him. And fear is not always logical, even though it wouldn't have been Lupin's fault when they were kids, Severus will still resent him for it. > Joe wrote: 1- This is the first time I have seen the notion of Snape having any fear. It doesn't jibe with someone willing to *betray* LV. 2- If that had been teh case, why would he leak the information to STUDENTS? As for #1...I have a unrational fear of heights...never fallen, but it's there all the same. Now you won't catch me climbing on the roof of a house or bungy jumping because of the said fear, however I have no problem of flying....fear is not rational...it makes no sense that I fear one thing that deals with heights and not the other, but I do. If you look at GoF, you see Snape's reactions to DD when he says 'you know what I must ask you to do'...he would be crazy not to be afraid of LV, but he'd be crazier to not fight against him, because Voldy will be no less forgiving...at least this way he has a chance if Voldy is defeated. As for his fear of werewolves, and probably a unrational fear of Lupin, due to what occurred as a child...it may be unrational...he surely knows that Lupin had no part in that prank, nor would he intentionally hurt anyone, but as Lupin himself demonstrated that fateful night in PoA, a slip-up could cost someone their life...and Severus with a fear derived from the fact he was almost killed once, might decide now that he had to get word out about Lupin to ensure that Lupin goes...if not for the students...for his own safety. As for #2, who better to tell? The staff knows and they aren't going to go against DD. DD knows and isn't talking. The house-elves are talking, so who else is at Hogwarts to tell? And besides, who better to pass the word to the people who would want to protect the children most than the children themselves. A way to alleviate his unrational fears, by making a slip of the tongue...that way the brunt of his fear is gone and he didn't go against DD...it was an accident. SiriusBlack4Eternity From cerebella316 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 05:45:48 2004 From: cerebella316 at yahoo.com (cerebella316) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 05:45:48 -0000 Subject: Potions Master Question/ Viridis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94760 Viridis wrote: [Dumbledore] is famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for discovering the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and for his work on alchemy with his friend Nicolas Flamel. (HP Lexicon quoting Chocolate Frog Card) Ergo ? Dumble himself must be of the top Potions Masters of WW. I find it hard to believe he was just a clerk for Flamel. We don?t know what he was doing for better part of his life, so he could easily enjoy *beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses*. So why he was teaching transfiguration? He is powerful enough to be equally good in both fields. But still... Potioncat: This one took on a life of its own! I up-treaded back to see what started it all. And here I am. Viridis, was your question ever answered? Potioncat (who thinks that with the above idea of DD's potion making skills, he and Snape must be cooking up something) Bella's 2 knuts: I have no doubt in my mind that Dumbledore is excellent at everything he does! OoP, US hardback, p. 711: Prof Marchbanks on Dumbledore--"Examined him personally in Transfiguration and Charms when he did his N.E.W.T.s...Did things with a wand I'd never seen before..." This leads me to believe DD was pretty awesome at Charms, in addition to Transfiguration and (presumably) Potions. My question for you all is, why could it not have been that Flammel worked with DD because DD excelled in Care of Magical Creatures?? Maybe DD has a way with dragons that we don't know about!! I mean...Fawkes is pretty loyal to him...and Hagrid respects him so.... Just thought I'd throw that into the discussion! ~Bella, who is not to be confused with nasty Bellatrix and happens to identify more with Hermione and Harry (because of different aspects from each character's personality)...but keeps being told by the silly quizzes she's compelled to take that she is most like Dumbledore--Heehee! (Not that that's in any way a bad thing!) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 07:10:29 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 07:10:29 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94761 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > Potioncat: > Or, Lupin can contact Snape and/or DD via floo and say, "I need the > potion now, There's an emergency. We have to get to the Shrieking > Shack!" Then maybe he goes too or maybe he stays behind. > > I will concede, that by the same token, Snape should have let DD know > he was going after Lupin and the others. Except that Snape wasn't > going to turn into a werewolf. bboy_mn: One can rationalize your position, but realistically, I don't think Lupin would be eager to invite many people along when he went to investigate why he saw both Sirius and Peter on the Map. Given Snape and Sirius's ill-will, Snape would be the last person Lupin would give any hint that something was wrong at that moment. Also, given that he had just seen a dead person on the map (Peter) combined with Sirius's obvious attack on the Trio, I think he might have been a little pre-occupied in that moment. Consequently, he rushed out to investigate without thinking or planning. Snape in the same vein was distracted by his own hatred of Sirius to think of sharing the glory for his capture with anyone. Plus, the circumstance gave him the added bonus of getting Lupin fired and Harry expelled. ...like Christmas come early. Just a thought. bboy_mn From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 07:19:54 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 07:19:54 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't Ron and Hermione Hear the Basilisk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94762 Robert Jones wrote: > COS explains that Harry could understand the Basilisk because he > was a Parseltongue. But why couldn't Ron and Hermione even *hear* > it? Shouldn't it have made a hiss or some other snaky noise? > Nothing in the book suggests that a Parseltongue could read a > snake's mind or had especially acute hearing ? so shouldn't there > have been some noise for Ron and Hermione to hear? Del : I'm pretty sure they heard it. But they dismissed it as another castle background noise. We all do that all the time : we hear tons and tons of sounds, but we pay attention only to those that mean something special to us for whatever reason. In the street for example, we won't notice all the car sounds around us, but we will get instantly alert if we hear sudden braking sounds, even if it is 50 meters away. So Ron and Hermione didn't notice the hissing because it meant nothing special to them, while Harry noticed it instantly because it was a *voice* for him. And not just a voice either : a voice inside the walls that spoke of murder... Del From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 07:20:48 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 07:20:48 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a Gary Stu? (was: Mary Sue) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94763 Kateydidnt : > > I don't think that test is accurate either. Take any main character > from any book and most likely any of them would qualify-we read books > about characters because the characters are different in some way or > interesting in some way. Who wants to read a story about someone just > like yourself? > > I have to agree--many of the questions are simply variations on the theme of "is this character like Harry Potter?" or "does this character fit the archetypes of a typical hero/ ine?" Well, Harry IS like Harry, and he does fit many of those archetypes, but he is neither so clearly a wish-fulfillment of the author's own desires or a stand-in--nor, as pointed out, is he so poorly written--that he falls to GS/MS status. Like Hermione (or Ron or Ginny, for that matter, all of whom could fit the mold) Harry is an intriguingly drawn fictional character, well-rounded enough that we feel as if we like him, consistent enough that we feel we know him, and complex enough that we feel we aren't sure what he's going to do next. Having run across a few MS/GS in the reading I've done since I was a thirteen-year- old attending Star Trek conventions (when the fic came in smelly mimeographed 'magazines'), these guys aren't it. Antosha, who wonders, Am I a Gary Stu? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 07:26:24 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 07:26:24 -0000 Subject: OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94764 -Neri wrote: > Snape blew up even his drill sergeant > credibility when he has discriminated against Gryffindors and favored incapable students such as Crabbe and Goyle. Snape may be a superb > secret agent, but none of his "trainees" will follow him as a > commander under fire. Carol: Quick question here. What evidence do we have of Snape favoring Crabbe and Goyle? As far as we know, they could be among the "dunderheads" who received D's (for "dreadful") on the essays that Snape graded to OWL standards. I also can't recall him praising them in or out of class. IIRC, he mostly ignores them. Carol, resisting the impulse to argue until she hears the evidence From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Apr 1 07:36:46 2004 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 02:36:46 EST Subject: No one was to blame... I think. (was: Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Message-ID: <15a.317393b0.2d9d208e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94765 Justine: > I don't have my books with me at my dorm, but as far as I remember, Lupin didn't actually >*have* the potion. Isn't that why Snape stopped in Lupin's office and saw the Marauder's >Map? To deliver the wolfsbane? I don't see why Snape would merely stop in to see if Lupin >drank it, since Snape isn't very fond of Remus and also would have no reason to suspect >that he had forgotten to drink it. So, couldn't it be that Remus saw Peter's name on the >map, but couldn't wait around for Snape to show up because there was the chance that at >that *very* moment, Harry and company were in mortal danger? No, you're right, this *could* be how it was, although I don't think it's the implication of the text. However you've made me realise there's another discrepancy here. Snape's actual words in the Shrieking Shack are, "You forgot to take your Potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along." This implies that normally Lupin would *collect* his Potion from Snape, which of course is not the case on the only occasion we *see* Lupin take his Potion; in this case, too, Snape takes it to Lupin's office. Did he forget on that day too? Or perhaps the pattern just changed. After all it was a bit much for Snape to *keep* trotting round the castle with goblets of steaming potion, not very discreet and not very practical when it had to be drunk hot. And just to muddy waters I normally keep out of.... I don't really think that any supposed vampire lore (?laws?) really operate where JKR's concerned as she reinvents concepts to her own liking, but I do recall it being held significant that on that previous occasion, Snape had to ask permission to enter Lupin's office. He didn't this time. OK. Perhaps the door was open.... ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 07:39:24 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 07:39:24 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry_enjoying_his_friends=92_pain_(was:_Harry's_disposition)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94766 > Del: > > The only times Harry willfully hurt his friends and took some > > kind of pleasure or satisfaction in it is when he felt he was > > only punishing them, getting some kind of revenge on them. And > > that's a VERY human reaction, boy do I know about it :-) !! > > (Unless you mean I'm being possessed by an evil spirit ? ;-) > > Annemehr: > Yes, indeed. Del : For one fleeting moment, I wondered if you meant that yes indeed I'm being possessed by an evil spirit... Annemehr : > And I also have to wonder about what Dumbledore said, about > Voldemort's great talent for spreading discord and enmity, > because Harry is cetainly not the only one to go all fratchety in > this book (though he does have the best excuse IMO). I'm not > asserting that Voldemort is magically affecting their tempers; it > could be just the stress and worry he causes along with the ripple > effect everyone's responses have on each other. Things are going > to get even worse, so they'll *all* have to learn to master > themselves. Del : I think one big problem is what Arthur (or was it Hagrid ? I don't have my books sorry) explained : in the first time of LV, you didn't know who you could trust anymore. And it's happening again. The Trio has been constantly facing cases of people not being who the Trio thought they were (Snape, Quirrell, Lockhart, Sirius, Wormtail, Moody, etc...) One thing they're learning fast is that they basically can't trust *anyone*. In CoS, they had doubts about Hagrid. In PoA and GoF, Harry discovered that even his two best friends can be "untrustworthy" at times. Up to OoP, the only one they all trusted completely was DD, but in OoP Harry can't even be sure of DD's intentions anymore. And Harry even reaches a point where he can't be sure of *himself* ! And trust is mightily important when you're working alongside someone else : we all know what happened because of the distrust between Harry and Snape. > Annemehr > who agrees with Del more often than not, and hopes she didn't press > her argument too far in their last go-around Del : Nah, don't worry :-) I'm feeling slightly uncomfortable in this thread though : I mean, I'm *defending* Harry !!! I never thought it would happen :-) Del, who keeps surprising even herself :-) From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Apr 1 07:55:08 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 07:55:08 -0000 Subject: Hermione & Handsome guys (Was Hermione...Genius?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94767 "jmgarciaiii" wrote: SNIPPED ....although Hermione has shown a weakness for handsomeness, and HP has not really been described as handsome.* ---------- Hermione has a weakness for haondsomness??? I think Krum was described as only being slightly less awkward and unattractive than Gabbe and Coyle the human rocks. She was 12 (super age for a girl's first baseless crush) when she was on about Lockhart. AND I think it's important to point out that Lockhart appeared to be much more than a charming smile. He was the author of several books (who do we know who likes books???), he was supposedly a very widely knowned and skilled wizard and was touted (if by no one else by himself) for his selfless heroics (saving an entire town from some ridiculous creature, yada yada yada). The frilly robes, coiffed hair and charming smile just distract everyone while he displays his incompentence. Hermione's very first words about Lockhart are after they see a sign in F&B about his booksigning: "We can actually meet him!" Hermione squealed. "I mean, he's written almost the whole booklist!" She hasn't seen him yet and if she was only just now getting the books he wrote, she would never have seen his picture and what he looks like. She sqealed about him without any knowledge of how handsome he was. She was interested in him for what he had done and his skill (supposed) as a wizard. Also, in regards to Harry being handsome, I think there are two things that might allow it to be true that he's not just "awkward and knobbly kneed". First--everyone's critical of themselves and so, I think we get Harry's critical impression of himself. Second, if James was all that (which it seems he was) he couldn't have been too shabby too look at (at least average with a more than healthy bout of strut and swagger, I'd wager.) Arya From hpfgu_auror at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 08:36:53 2004 From: hpfgu_auror at yahoo.com (HPfGU Auror) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 00:36:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules Message-ID: <20040401083653.34803.qmail@web61008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94768 This ADMIN announces a new, improved type of HPfGU main-list message-formatting rules. To remedy the increasing number of posts, it is necessary to limit who can post on a particular day. Not wanting to make things too complicated, we strive, as always, to explain our rules with all clarity and conciseness. Rules can be frustrating to some, comforting to others, too strict to be believed by others. We hope that you will take time to look carefully at the content of this ADMIN, either now or when you have time. Though sometimes it's difficult to accept rules, it is also necessary to maintain order. Three years ago, it was difficult to read HPfGU because of the chaos that was posted. 1. List members will determine their designated posting days by adding the digits of their Gregorian-calendar birthdates. For example, if you were born on July 31, 1980, you would add 7+3+1+1+9+8+0 = 29. Simplify two-digit numbers thus: 2+9 = 7. 2. Each digit corresponds to a day of the week: 1 = Monday 2 = Tuesday 3 = Wednesday 4 = Thursday 5 = Friday 6 = Saturday 7 = Sunday Therefore, if 7 were the number resulting from your birthday, you would post on Sundays only. 3. If the resulting number is 8 or 9, you must post to a separate list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-oddmanout. 4. To make posting more efficient, we ask that you embed at least one message within another, using the Sebald encoding method, which dictates that ten unencoded words separate each encoded word. For example: "I don't understand why people think Hermione's age is important. I hate it when this thread comes up. You are just like Snape if you bring it up again." Decode it thus (encoded words marked with /slashes/): "/I/ don't understand why people think Hermione's age is important. I /hate/ it when this thread comes up. You're as ugly as /Snape/ if you mention it." The embedded message is therefore, "I hate Snape." Note: Hyphenated words count as two words; contractions count as one. Granted, the Sebald code requires that a bell ring at the beginning and end of the encoded message, but for our purposes we will require -- and readers will assume -- that the entire message is encoded. 5. We will no longer be accepting messages on character motives. 6. We will no longer be accepting messages on Wizarding World politics. 7. We will no longer be accepting speculation on events in the next two books. 8. We will no longer be accepting messages longer than three lines. 9. We will no longer be accepting messages shorter than two lines. 10. We will make an exception to Rules 8 and 9 only if the encoded message reveals the release date for Book 6, the complete final sentence of the series, or Arithmantic proofs of Sinistra's gender. 11. Your handle must be an anagram, twice scrambled, of your mother's great-aunt's housekeeper's maiden name. This will enable us to verify your true identity should the need arise. We hope that these new yet necessary rules will not provide excessive inconvenience to list members. Cheers! The List Administration Team p.s. For more Very Formally Detailed information on these new rules, including the Sebald code, please see our new list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-getinformed --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 09:30:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 09:30:39 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Let's_stop_comparing_pains_!!_(Re:_Harry_enjoying_his_friends=92_pain_)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94769 Susanne wrote: > > It's not that because Harry has more "excuses", now nobody > > else can feel bad. > > > > Ron has things that hurt his feelings, and so does Hermione, > > and everybody else, no matter if there is somebody else out > > there, who gets hurt more often. > > > > You can't tell other people, that they now > > have lost their right to feel bad about anything (or the > > right to express these feelings), unless it's as bad > > as what soandso is going through. > > > > Other people deserve compassion just as much as Harry > > Potter, and I'm pretty sure Harry would agree with me (most > > of the time), Del : I completely agree with you, Susanne ! Alla : > Other people can feel bad, of course and Ron's insecurities are > very "down to earth", but it just to me as a reader they seem quit > einsignificant in comparison to Harry. Del : Harry's problems are *bound* to seem bigger than anyone else's, since the story is told from Harry's point of view ! My problems are always bigger than yours, because they are mine so I see them up close (where a mole-hill looks like a mountain) and they have an emotional effect on me. Your problems, on the other hand, I see from a distance (easier to see the solution) and I can analyse dispassionately. Alla : > I mean he feels "overshadowed" by his family,I can understand > that, but at the same time Harry has no parents and when Ron > complains about his mother, well, he does seem as an ungrateful > brat to me. Del : Which is worse : no father, a violent father, a sexually abusing father, a father who's always away, a poor father, a "disappointing" father, a father in prison, a father with too high expectations of you, a father who doesn't care about you, a father who favours your brother, a divorced father, a remarried father, any real father... ? We simply can't "rate" problems. Alla : > He is entitled to his feelings, but as I said at those moments I, > as a reader don't find him very sympathetic. Del : Let me tell you about my own experience : I went through 15 years of depression being told that I shouldn't feel so bad, since I had so many good things in my life, and so few problems. Oh sure, I had no father, but I had a wonderful mother, and anyway having no father is much better than having a "bad" father. Oh sure, I had been abused sexually as a pre-teen, but I hadn't been raped, had I ? It was only touching, not really bad. Oh sure, I was poor, shy and fat. But those were a problem only in my head, I was only imagining that the other kids were tough with me because of it. And it wasn't like they were beating me up anyway. And I was so bright, so mature, I was living in such good conditions, I was going to school, I had such a loving mom and wonderful sister, etc, etc... How did I *dare* being depressed !? How could I be so ungrateful towards all the great things God (or life if you prefer) gave me ? How could I not see that there were tons of people who had many more, and much better, reasons to suffer, than pampered sissy attention-seeking little me ? I should be ashamed of being depressed ! I should stop being depressed, because I wasn't worthy of it ! It's only when I met my future husband, at age 27, that my feelings were validated for the very first time in my life. He was the first one to tell me that there was no being right or wrong when feeling bad. I was depressed and I had as much right as anyone else to be. It was a big surprise for me, I even refused to listen to him for months. And it was only when I allowed myself to be depressed that I began being able to really do something about it. That's when I granted myself the right to suffer from it that I finally recognised what being born and raised without a father had done to me (how could I love myself when my own father had refused to love me as a baby ?). That's when I accepted that I had a right to suffer from it that I saw clearly how much the sexual abuse I received as a pre- teen destroyed me, even though there had been no technical rape (I was put in a sexual role I was not ready to fill, by someone who was supposed to protect me). It's only when I allowed my anger towards all those people who had tried to minimise my trials to flare up, that I was able to find real comfort, help and support. They were wrong to tell me I shouldn't feel bad, they were wrong to tell me that it wasn't as bad as what other people were enduring, they were wrong to minimise my problems. They were wrong to deny my pain. And whoever tries to minimise Ron's problems (or whoever else) because Harry's problems are "bigger", is doing the exact same thing. Both boys need help. Both boys deserve total compassion. Period. And what about a competition between Harry and Neville ? Should be tough... Del, who thinks that when someone suffers, they deserve to be offered help, support and compassion. Even Tom Riddle. From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Thu Apr 1 10:10:26 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 10:10:26 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: <20040401083653.34803.qmail@web61008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, HPfGU Auror wrote: > > This ADMIN announces a new, improved type of HPfGU main-list message-formatting rules. LOL - isn't that cute! Spring is here at last! From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 10:56:16 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 10:56:16 -0000 Subject: feelings...nothing more than feelings... (was: Re: Harry's disposition ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94771 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" wrote: > And when he's at Hogwarts I think he has a lot of support. Certainly > (at least it seems so to me) he spends more time with Dumbledore than > anyone else, and is very close to Dumbledore's heart. The Weasleys > have truly taken him in. He has Hagrid. He has friends. And even > with the loss of Sirius, he has other elders who are there for him if > he needs comfort or counsel--it's that so often he's engaged in > behavior he can't or won't tell them about, so he can't necessarily > avail himself of it. If we accept ths premis, the question naturally surges forth as to why HP behaves this way. -Joe in SoFla From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 1 11:04:30 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:04:30 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: <20040401083653.34803.qmail@web61008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94772 Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! Yours severely, Sigune > > This ADMIN announces a new, improved type of HPfGU main-list message-formatting rules. To remedy the increasing number of posts, it is necessary to limit who can post on a particular day. Not wanting to make things too complicated, we strive, as always, to explain our rules with all clarity and conciseness. Rules can be frustrating to some, comforting to others, too strict to be believed by others. We hope that you will take time to look carefully at the content of this ADMIN, either now or when you have time. Though sometimes it's difficult to accept rules, it is also necessary to maintain order. Three years ago, it was difficult to read HPfGU because of the chaos that was posted. > > > > 1. List members will determine their designated posting days by adding the digits of their Gregorian-calendar birthdates. For example, if you were born on July 31, 1980, you would add 7+3+1+1+9+8+0 = 29. Simplify two-digit numbers thus: 2+9 = 7. > > > > 2. Each digit corresponds to a day of the week: > > > > 1 = Monday > > 2 = Tuesday > > 3 = Wednesday > > 4 = Thursday > > 5 = Friday > > 6 = Saturday > > 7 = Sunday > > > > Therefore, if 7 were the number resulting from your birthday, you would post on Sundays only. > > > > 3. If the resulting number is 8 or 9, you must post to a separate list: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-oddmanout. > > > > 4. To make posting more efficient, we ask that you embed at least one message within another, using the Sebald encoding method, which dictates that ten unencoded words separate each encoded word. > > > > For example: > > > > "I don't understand why people think Hermione's age is important. I hate it when this thread comes up. You are just like Snape if you bring it up again." > > > > Decode it thus (encoded words marked with /slashes/): > > > > "/I/ don't understand why people think Hermione's age is important. I /hate/ it when this thread comes up. You're as ugly as /Snape/ if you mention it." > > > > The embedded message is therefore, "I hate Snape." > > > > Note: Hyphenated words count as two words; contractions count as one. > > > > Granted, the Sebald code requires that a bell ring at the beginning and end of the encoded message, but for our purposes we will require - - and readers will assume -- that the entire message is encoded. > > > > 5. We will no longer be accepting messages on character motives. > > > > 6. We will no longer be accepting messages on Wizarding World politics. > > > > 7. We will no longer be accepting speculation on events in the next two books. > > > > 8. We will no longer be accepting messages longer than three lines. > > > > 9. We will no longer be accepting messages shorter than two lines. > > > > 10. We will make an exception to Rules 8 and 9 only if the encoded message reveals the release date for Book 6, the complete final sentence of the series, or Arithmantic proofs of Sinistra's gender. > > > > 11. Your handle must be an anagram, twice scrambled, of your mother's great-aunt's housekeeper's maiden name. This will enable us to verify your true identity should the need arise. > > > > We hope that these new yet necessary rules will not provide excessive inconvenience to list members. > > > > Cheers! > > > > The List Administration Team > > > > p.s. For more Very Formally Detailed information on these new rules, including the Sebald code, please see our new list at > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-getinformed > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From belijako at online.no Thu Apr 1 11:13:03 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:13:03 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94773 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, HPfGU Auror > wrote: > > > > This ADMIN announces a new, improved type of HPfGU main-list > message-formatting rules. > > > LOL - isn't that cute! Spring is here at last! Berit replies: Really great!!! I'm quite impressed with the work the ADMIN has put into these excellent new rules :-) The best I've read so far today (and I've read quite a few newspapers...) Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 11:28:03 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:28:03 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Or, Lupin can contact Snape and/or DD via floo and say, "I need the > potion now, There's an emergency. We have to get to the Shrieking > Shack!" Then maybe he goes too or maybe he stays behind. 1- I'd wager that Lupin was preoccupied (whether he should have been is matter for debate) 2- Lupin took responsibility for this, by realizing what he had done, and rather manfully at that. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Joe wrote: > >I get the sense that, on some level Lupin has forgiven Snape. > > Potioncat who has successfully cut and paste two posts together. > I think you have a good point. I think Lupin was feeling pretty > guilty for some of his poor judgement. JKR has said that Lupin goes > out of his way to be friendly due to the experiences he's had. So it > would figure that he would let it go. IIRC, what JKR said about Lupin is that he's been rejected so often that he's willing to do more than perhaps is wise to do. This, however, is fundamentally different from the concept of forgiveness. That is to say, to "let it go" is more the forget part of forgive- and-forget. Snape hates Lupin (I'm not exactly sure why, since canon is silent on whatever--besides being the M in MWPP--Lupin may have done to Snape back at school) but I am quite confident that, in contrast to Sirius, Lupin does not reciprocate. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Interesting, isn't it, that from time to time we see Snape go against > DD, yet there never seems to be any consequence. Of course, we don't > get to sit in at the annual review. This just made me think back to CoS and DD telling Snape: "Innocent until proven guilty, Severus." Might there be even more encoded (in a way that Snape and only Snape might understand) in this phrase? Might this have to do with how Snape evaded any legal consequence for having been a DE? > I'd like to know from JKR what was behind Snape's slip of the tongue > about Lupin and behind the end of occlumency lessons. But I really do > think he was sincere in his distrust of Lupin and Black, and that it > wasn't just spite. 1- I think Snape has too much self-possession, except for those moments of rage, to have an accidental "slip of the tongue." A very poor habit to have if one is spying on LV and the DEs. 2- If we accept that Snape distrusts Lupin (I agree wholeheartedly he distrusts Black) then we must ask why. Because Lupin is a werewolf and *only* because of that? If not, what other reason has Lupin given Snape for that distrust? -Joe in SoFla, who's managed to smoosh 3 posts into one From LadySawall at aol.com Thu Apr 1 06:49:56 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (Jo Ann) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 06:49:56 -0000 Subject: Broomstick Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94775 Heads up, Quidditch fans and canon experts! My apologies if this has been dealt with previously, but can anyone tell me whether it's indicated in canon whether a racing broomstick can carry more than one person? If it can be done, what effect does it have on speed, maneuverability, etc? If it can't, what happens if one tries? If it's not mentioned at all, can I get some opinions on the subject? Thanks in advance... J. Spencer From teshara at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 08:30:04 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 08:30:04 -0000 Subject: Wizards and Fickle Fame? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94776 I find it really strange that in book 2 Lockhart is the most popular wizard around and in the 5th book the nurse hardly knows anything of his fame. Are the healers supposed to be that busy they're segregated, or is fame really that fickle? ~ Chelle Who here remembers Milli Vanilli? From lionel_garth at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 08:43:28 2004 From: lionel_garth at yahoo.com (Lionel English) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 08:43:28 -0000 Subject: Underage magic enforcement In-Reply-To: <000701c41772$f58d5f50$6501a8c0@mac> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94777 > > Carol: > > If, as others have speculated, the underage magic is detected by > > identifying the wand, then a child under eleven would be using > > someone else's wand or no wand at all, and the MoM could not > > identify the child who cast the spell. --- "Bumbledor" wrote: > I think [...]The > M.O.M.'s job is to make sure the muggles don't find out about witches and > wizards existing. > > Now Harry is clearly the only wizard child in his area. He lives I think it's related to Muggles, but not (entirely) in the ways discussed so far. CoS provides clear evidence (Dobby's hover charm) that the MoM can detect the use of magic--and even identify the type, or effect--but it can not tell who performed the magic. Harry was cited merely because magic was detected in his muggle household, and he was the only known wizard in the area. But not only wasn't the charm performed by him, it wasn't even performed by a wand. So, an obvious reason wizarding children may not receive notices is that the MoM can't distinguish between magic performed by them and by their parents. If this is true, the only way the MoM can really enforce the Restriction is in the case of young witches and wizards who live in Muggle households and neighborhoods, as Bumbledore suggests. These would predominantly be Muggle-born witches and wizards; or those like Harry who, for exceptional reasons, happen to live with Muggles. With these particular children; neither they nor their parents would normally even know that they were magical until they received their first notice from Hogwarts, so until that happens the MoM couldn't really do anything. (They can't expel them from Hogwarts before they've been, nor can they even send a notice given that the family will have no idea who the Ministry of Magic is.) Furthermore, any magic these children perform will more than likely be wild, unfocused magic, given that they'll have no idea they can even do magic. It's therefore probably that only after they've been accepted at Hogwarts that the MoM has any authority over them. Questions: If one of these young witches or wizards is expelled from Hogwarts, and has their wand broken, does the MoM still exert any power over them? Can they still perform "wild" magic, and what can the MoM do about it? If the MoM can detect magic but not who's doing it, why didn't they notice Mundungus' apparating around Privet Drive? Lionel From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 11:34:07 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:34:07 -0000 Subject: Hermione & Handsome guys (Was Hermione...Genius?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > "jmgarciaiii" wrote: > Hermione has a weakness for haondsomness??? I think she does and that it's a natural thing, HOWEVER, I think I gave the very false impression that she only cares for that. Perhaps, my views are coloredby what other characters say about this matter. (Like Ron saying she only liked Cedric because he was handsome) > I think Krum was > described as only being slightly less awkward and unattractive than Gabbe > and Coyle the human rocks. True, but I don't recall Krum being seen with a romantic eye by Hermione. > She was 12 (super age for a girl's first baseless > crush) when she was on about Lockhart. AND I think it's important to point > out that Lockhart appeared to be much more than a charming smile. He was > the author of several books (who do we know who likes books???), he was > supposedly a very widely knowned and skilled wizard and was touted (if by no > one else by himself) for his selfless heroics (saving an entire town from some > ridiculous creature, yada yada yada). The frilly robes, coiffed hair and > charming smile just distract everyone while he displays his incompentence. True, but that may only have been a bonus. :-) > Also, in regards to Harry being handsome... I'm sorry, I meant that HP had never been *described* as handsome. -Joe in SoFla From belijako at online.no Thu Apr 1 11:35:30 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:35:30 -0000 Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94779 Khilari wrote: As a related thought, does LV have a sense of humour? I would love to know what his boggart looks like and whether he can fight it. Berit replies: Love your question Khilari :-) According to canon, there are only two things Voldemort fears: Death and Dumbledore! Whether the Dark Lord can muster enough humour to tackle a boggart in the shape of any of them, I don't know... Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From lionel_garth at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 08:22:11 2004 From: lionel_garth at yahoo.com (Lionel English) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 08:22:11 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor) In-Reply-To: <005201c417a4$9c7671e0$871d0f0a@bre.uop.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94780 --- "Aesha Williams" wrote: > >6. How can Umbridge possibly have enough time to inspect so many classes *and* teach all the DADA >classes as well? > > I don't know, I wondered this too. She has 7 DADA classes, and Actually, since Gryfindor doesn't seem to share their DADA classes with any other house, there are at least 14 classes (one for each Gryfindor level and one for each level of the combined other classes). And since it's highly unlikely that there are classes with three houses crowded together, it's more likely 28 classes--one for each level of each house. Even if they meet just once a week, that's still five to six classes a day. Lionel From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 11:37:59 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:37:59 -0000 Subject: Handsomeness and Hermione (Was: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94781 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Joe wrote: > > * But who HAS [been described as handsome]? Sirius, at least as "once-handsome," and Cedric...was > > Lockhart? anyone else? > > > Carol, who hopes the List Elves won't mind a teeny post: You're > forgetting the handsome and charming Tom Riddle. Not that he's much > help in a SHipping post. Was he? I don't recall any sort of "editorial" commentary on TR's looks...I must go dredge stuff up and see! (Or someone could do it for me.. :-) ) -Joe in SoFla From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 11:41:09 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:41:09 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: <20040401042510.58350.qmail@web14811.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94782 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Vickey wrote: > > jmgarciaiii wrote: > Willowsgreyghost wrote: > > How about a fear for his own safety?... He was almost attacked and > would have been killed by Lupin as a boy...that is going to cause > him to have some prejudices based in fear about werewolves, one in > particular. He was probably uncomfortable being around Lupin, > especially given how close he had to work with him. And fear is not > always logical, even though it wouldn't have been Lupin's fault when > they were kids, Severus will still resent him for it. > > > Joe wrote: > 1- This is the first time I have seen the notion of Snape having any > fear. It doesn't jibe with someone willing to *betray* LV. > > 2- If that had been teh case, why would he leak the information to > STUDENTS? > > As for #1...I have a unrational fear of heights...never fallen, but it's there all the same. Yes, but...that doesn't square with the personality of Severus Snape. Irrational dislike, yes. Irrational fear? I'm not so sure. > As for #2, who better to tell? The staff knows and they aren't going to go against DD. DD knows and isn't talking. The house- elves are talking, so who else is at Hogwarts to tell? And besides, who better to pass the word to the people who would want to protect the children most than the children themselves. A way to alleviate his unrational fears, by making a slip of the tongue...that way the brunt of his fear is gone and he didn't go against DD...it was an accident. > The "oops" theory doesn't convince me yet. This is because it presupposes a capacity for Snape to make this sort of mistake, and I haven't yet seen Snape do anything accidentally. -Joe in SoFla From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 11:54:18 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:54:18 -0000 Subject: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94783 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Oh, good heavens! Not another discrepancy! Mine is the First > Scholastic Trade Paperback, copyright 2000 but printed in 2002. it > contains the correction in the order of the "echoes" coming out of > Voldemort's wand in the "Priori Incantatem" chapter, which to me > suggests that it may contain other corrections as well. (My apologies > for forgetting to put "Am. ed." but maybe it's a felicitous blunder in > this case.) What's the year on yours? (Anybody with a corrected UK > edition ca. 2002?) > > BTW, I think the error is in the Canadian edition because Miss Fawcett > has already been identified as being in Ravenclaw in the age line > scene and JKR (or an editor) wanted to make it consistent. (A change > like that would not have been made by an editor without JKR's consent.) > > Carol Carolyn: My hardback copy of GOF, a UK first edition printed in 2000, says '10 points from Hufflepuff, Fawcett!" on p.371. (In contrast to the Miss Fawcett who is clearly identified as a Ravenclaw in the age-line scene on p.229). Definitely two Fawcett girls, maybe three taking into account the Miss Fawcett mentioned in the duelling scene in CS. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 12:13:58 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:13:58 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94784 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" wrote: > Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! > > Yours severely, > > Sigune > > > > > This ADMIN announces a new, improved type of HPfGU main-list > message-formatting rules. To remedy the increasing number of posts, > it is necessary to limit who can post on a particular day. Not > wanting to make things too complicated, we strive, as always, to > explain our rules with all clarity and conciseness. Rules can be > frustrating to some, comforting to others, too strict to be believed > by others. We hope that you will take time to look carefully at the > content of this ADMIN, either now or when you have time. Though > sometimes it's difficult to accept rules, it is also necessary to > maintain order. Three years ago, it was difficult to read HPfGU > because of the chaos that was posted. > > > > > > > > 1. List members will determine their designated posting days by > adding the digits of their Gregorian-calendar birthdates. For > example, if you were born on July 31, 1980, you would add > 7+3+1+1+9+8+0 = 29. Simplify two-digit numbers thus: 2+9 = 7. > > > > > > > > 2. Each digit corresponds to a day of the week: > > > > > > > > 1 = Monday > > > > 2 = Tuesday > > > > 3 = Wednesday > > > > 4 = Thursday > > > > 5 = Friday > > > > 6 = Saturday > > > > 7 = Sunday > > > > > > > > Therefore, if 7 were the number resulting from your birthday, you > would post on Sundays only. > > > > > > > > 3. If the resulting number is 8 or 9, you must post to a separate > list: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-oddmanout. > > > > > > > > 4. To make posting more efficient, we ask that you embed at least > one message within another, using the Sebald encoding method, which > dictates that ten unencoded words separate each encoded word. > > > > > > > > For example: > > > > > > > > "I don't understand why people think Hermione's age is important. I > hate it when this thread comes up. You are just like Snape if you > bring it up again." > > > > > > > > Decode it thus (encoded words marked with /slashes/): > > > > > > > > "/I/ don't understand why people think Hermione's age is important. > I /hate/ it when this thread comes up. You're as ugly as /Snape/ if > you mention it." > > > > > > > > The embedded message is therefore, "I hate Snape." > > > > > > > > Note: Hyphenated words count as two words; contractions count as > one. > > > > > > > > Granted, the Sebald code requires that a bell ring at the beginning > and end of the encoded message, but for our purposes we will require - > - and readers will assume -- that the entire message is encoded. > > > > > > > > 5. We will no longer be accepting messages on character motives. > > > > > > > > 6. We will no longer be accepting messages on Wizarding World > politics. > > > > > > > > 7. We will no longer be accepting speculation on events in the next > two books. > > > > > > > > 8. We will no longer be accepting messages longer than three lines. > > > > > > > > 9. We will no longer be accepting messages shorter than two lines. > > > > > > > > 10. We will make an exception to Rules 8 and 9 only if the encoded > message reveals the release date for Book 6, the complete final > sentence of the series, or Arithmantic proofs of Sinistra's gender. > > > > > > > > 11. Your handle must be an anagram, twice scrambled, of your > mother's great-aunt's housekeeper's maiden name. This will enable us > to verify your true identity should the need arise. > > > > > > > > We hope that these new yet necessary rules will not provide > excessive inconvenience to list members. > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > The List Administration Team > > > > > > > > p.s. For more Very Formally Detailed information on these new > rules, including the Sebald code, please see our new list at > > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-getinformed > > Potioncat: Well, at least we don't have to snip anymore! ahoo!? > > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Thu Apr 1 12:36:49 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 6:36:49 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: New Posting Rules Message-ID: <20040401123649.WQHL29216.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 94785 **Looks at rules....looks at date...blinks....keeps reading....starts to giggle...looks at date...actaully follows links (Needs coffee...don't laugh...). Looks at date on calender next to computer monitor. Reads rules again. Looks at date....** **Finally decides that it really *is* a post made especially for this day...goes back to reading other posts...** Love the new rules, guys! Anne/Silverthorne (Needs more coffee) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 12:38:02 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:38:02 -0000 Subject: Wizards and Fickle Fame? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94786 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chelle" wrote: > I find it really strange that in book 2 Lockhart is the most popular > wizard around and in the 5th book the nurse hardly knows anything of > his fame. > Are the healers supposed to be that busy they're segregated, or is > fame really that fickle? > > ~ Chelle > Who here remembers Milli Vanilli? Potioncat: No, I think Lockhart was very popular within his fan group, but that those with other interests wouldn't know much about him. I personally know that Grisholm is a popular author, but I couldn't tell you what he writes or what he looks like. I think it's interesting that Molly still has his books in OoP. From snapesmate at hotmail.com Thu Apr 1 12:37:34 2004 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:37:34 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: <20040401083653.34803.qmail@web61008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, HPfGU Auror wrote: > > This ADMIN announces a new, improved type of HPfGU main-list message-formatting rules. To remedy the increasing number of posts, it is necessary to limit who can post on a particular day. > 1. List members will determine their designated posting days by adding the digits of their Gregorian-calendar birthdates. For example, if you were born on July 31, 1980, you would add 7+3+1+1+9+8+0 = 29. Simplify two-digit numbers thus: 2+9 = 7. >> 4. To make posting more efficient, we ask that you embed at least one message within another, using the Sebald encoding method, which dictates that ten unencoded words separate each encoded word. > > We hope that these new yet necessary rules will not provide excessive inconvenience to list members. > > Cheers! > The List Administration Team > p.s. For more Very Formally Detailed information on these new rules, including the Sebald code, please see our new list at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-getinformed > A fine April Fool's Day to you to!! LOL! Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice guy! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Apr 1 12:58:03 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:58:03 +0100 Subject: What's he up to? Message-ID: <362E1E7C-83DC-11D8-AC3F-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94788 Every so often there's a trickle of posts wondering about "the small thing in CoS that will have a bearing later" that Steve Cloves mentioned during an interview. Like most posters I've made a few guesses and then passed on to something else. Without further hints we're whistling in the dark and sure as eggs is eggs we'll get no confirmation from from JKR, even if by chance we do latch onto the answer. However, there is something in CoS that bears thinking about - and it isn't small (except physically) and that concerns Dobby. I posted on this last October, but all too frequently when the subject of House Elves is raised a plethora of posters leap to decry the treatment of Elves in the WW and the thread tends to repeat all the old sociological arguments without really addressing the point raised. So let's just take it as read that any ill-treatment is to be deplored and that no doubt JKR will explain all at a later date. What I want to concentrate on is not what they are or how they are treated but what Dobby actually *does*. There could be a very big clue lurking in there somewhere. Dobby himself tells Harry that House Elves are bound "...to serve one house, one family." They're not interested in strangers, only in serving the Family they are attached to. Yet Dobby adds that he has "...come to protect Harry Potter, to warn him..." And once again Harry misses the chance to ask some pointed questions. So why is Dobby so very concerned about an apparent stranger? Note that he is not at all concerned about any of Harry's friends or colleagues and certainly not with Ginny, who is the front line victim for Malfoy's little ploy with the diary. The rebirth of Tom Riddle is of supreme indifference to him, it is only the involvement of, and the possible dangers to Harry that matters. So what's going on? Well, there are two possible scenarios that could explain Dobby's actions. The first, one that I put forward last year, is that Harry *is* a member of the family that Dobby serves. Just as Kreacher escapes to Bella by deliberately(?) misconstruing an instruction from Sirius, so Dobby does the same; seeking out another family member who holds views sympathetic to his own and giving them the low-down on what those horrible people back at the ranch are up to. The fact that the Potter name, though pureblood, does not appear on the Black tapestry gives this theory a small boost. JKR has been suspiciously reticent about the antecedents of James Potter, although in her most recent web-cast she did allow that James's parents were not of great importance. The actual name doesn't seem to fit into the mainstream of pureblood families either; it seems mundane among the Diggles and Dumbledores, but not so much so among the Blacks and Averys. A change of name to demonstrate a renunciation of family values is just possible but not likely. Then there is the whole brou-ha-ha of Dobby's manumission. This has been argued loud and long. Malfoy obviously did not intend for Dobby to be freed; can ties be broken when there is no intention? Add Dobby's insistence that it was *Harry* that set him free and we have a whole can of flobberworms open and writhing. How can Harry set him free if he's not family? Others insist that it was a trick on Harry's part to lure Malfoy into a thoughtless but irrevocable act. Maybe. But a new (to me) idea has been percolating through my admittedly twisted and conspiratorial mind. And it doesn't necessarily involve family ties, though they can be added as a bonus if you feel so inclined. What started me thinking was how often Dobby managed to get away from chez Malfoy during that year. He seemed to be spending an inordinate amount of time with Harry and at Hogwarts. How many instructions could Lucius give that could be misunderstood? And the timing; "Oh goody. Master has dropped a bollock again. I've just got time to nip across to Hogwarts and spell that Bludger. How convenient." Did Malfoy never notice that Dobby was absent without leave and did he never ask him where he'd been and what he'd been up to? Doesn't seem to fit with what we know of Malfoy's character IMO. But suppose, just suppose, that Lucius *sent* Dobby with strict instructions to stop Harry from attending Hogwarts that year and if necessary to warn him of danger. What could that mean? He's still not bothered about what happens to Ginny; not surprising when we see the animosity between Lucius and Arthur in Flourish and Blotts. He too is only concerned about Harry. It's not really feasible that he could foresee Harry defeating Tom, the diary and the Basilisk - Harry's only 12, a very novice wizard and is seen more as a pest than as a dangerous adversary. He wasn't even known to be a Parselmouth at the time of Dobby's first visit. No, the obvious danger to the plot was DD not Harry. And DD was neatly sidelined later, once the corridors were strewn with stiffs. So although we can assume that Lucius wanted the Basilisk out and about, eyeballing the students, he seemingly didn't want Harry wandering around with a bulls-eye on his back. Why not? He's on Voldy's team isn't he? Maybe. Although even Voldy seemed to wonder about Lucius's motives when they were re-united in the graveyard. He claims to smell guilt and tells Malfoy he expects a more faithful service in future. And Malfoy's response - "My Lord, I was on the alert..." You bet he was, but for what? Thieves fall out, a truism, but does it apply here? And why would Lucius get Harry involved in an possible internal DE power-play? Well, Harry is supposed to be Voldy's nemesis. A fairly risk-free option would be to make sure Harry survives to adulthood and the long anticipated showdown and meanwhile Malfoy quietly builds a power base - Fudge, the Ministry, the right people in charge of Hogwarts. Malfoy for Minister. Sneaky. Could even work. All this assumes that Malfoy is a thoroughly bad lot and totally committed to the Dark side. Is he? Consider, who does Snape hang around with, when he hangs around with anyone? Lucius. And Snape is supposed to be the link man between Voldy and DD. What if there's more than one link in the chain? Voldy would be mad to trust Snape, but he trusts Malfoy, at least up until now. It would also solve the problem of how Snape overcame his past betrayal to Voldy by simply by-passing it. He doesn't need to grovel before Voldy hoping like hell that Voldy's wand won't twitch and that Nagini has already been fed if Lucius is the main source for the Order's intelligence. Add in the interview with DD at the end of CoS. Lots of folk have expressed surprise that DD went so easy on him after he had caused so much trouble. A case of "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours," perhaps? Seduction instead of brute force? So Malfoy plays both ends against the middle, cooperating with both sides to a certain extent until he can pick the winner. How would that grab him? I think he'd like it - he'd think he was being clever. Until the fight in the Ministry. Still, not too bad - the Dementors have gone and Voldy will no doubt get him sprung fairly soon. What can we expect? Contrition, a mending of his ways or an even more fanatical adherence to the DE cause? Place your bets. Not many posters have had a close look at Malfoy recently, he seems to slip under the radar. Too slippery by half - I think he bears watching. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Apr 1 13:11:39 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:11:39 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: <20040401083653.34803.qmail@web61008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, HPfGU Auror wrote: > /Tell/ you what, this /admin/ team is going /to/ end up with some great/stuff/ on the message boards! Did they think of this wonderful scheme all by /themselves/? Kneasy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 1 13:31:42 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:31:42 -0000 Subject: Favoring Crabbe & Goyle? [was:Re: OT: Drill Sargeant] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94790 Neri wrote: > > Snape blew up even his drill sergeant > > credibility when he has discriminated against Gryffindors and > > favored incapable students such as Crabbe and Goyle. Snape may be > > a superb secret agent, but none of his "trainees" will follow him > > as a commander under fire. > Carol: > Quick question here. What evidence do we have of Snape favoring > Crabbe and Goyle? As far as we know, they could be among > the "dunderheads" who received D's (for "dreadful") on the essays > that Snape graded to OWL standards. I also can't recall him > praising them in or out of class. IIRC, he mostly ignores them. Siriusly Snapey Susan: One quick one for you, Carol. Though it's perhaps not outright *favoritism*, it could perhaps be argued as favoritism [haha--have I covered myself w/ that?]. Anyway, one of the times when Snape "vanishes" Harry's potion and gives me a zero [1st potions lesson of OoP], Goyle's potion also went horrendously wrong and it was ignored by Snape. After the lesson Hermione points out how unfair Snape was being, to have singled out Harry, and she said that Goyle's potion actually broke the flask & caught his robes on fire. Now, we do NOT know whether Goyle received a zero or some other grade, but we do know that Snape did not "evanesco" Ron's, Seamus', Neville's, or Goyle's, as he did Harry's. In sum, that might be seen as favoritism towards the others, or it might simply be seen as unfairness towards Harry. [I know, I know-- *or* as trying to get Potter to pay attention.] Siriusly Snapey Susan...who still thinks this takes nothing away from Neri's point that a drill sergeant who loses credibility through favoritism also potentially loses his underlings' commitment to follow him. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 13:43:22 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:43:22 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94791 snipping but not snippy > > Joe wrote: > > >I get the sense that, on some level Lupin has forgiven Snape. Potioncat: I snipped my initial reply which I wrote too quickly. Yes, I agree. This is one of Lupin's virtues, that he can forgive. Joe wrote: Snape hates Lupin (I'm not exactly sure why, since canon is silent > on whatever--besides being the M in MWPP--Lupin may have done to > Snape back at school) but I am quite confident that, in contrast to > Sirius, Lupin does not reciprocate. Potioncat: I agree. It's as if Lupin expects people to dislike him anyway, so Snape's dislike is nothing new. But he isn't going to respond in kind. > Joe wrote: > This just made me think back to CoS and DD telling Snape: "Innocent > until proven guilty, Severus." Might there be even more encoded (in > a way that Snape and only Snape might understand) in this phrase? > Might this have to do with how Snape evaded any legal consequence > for having been a DE? Potioncat: Yes, and at the time we had no idea. > > Joe wrote: > 1- I think Snape has too much self-possession, except for those > moments of rage, to have an accidental "slip of the tongue." A very > poor habit to have if one is spying on LV and the DEs. > > 2- If we accept that Snape distrusts Lupin (I agree wholeheartedly > he distrusts Black) then we must ask why. Because Lupin is a > werewolf and *only* because of that? If not, what other reason has > Lupin given Snape for that distrust? > Potioncat: Does anyone think the accidental slip of the tongue was an accident? There is certainly bad blood between Snape and Lupin to begin with. Added to that is Snape's concern for school security and the threat that Lupin brings to it(in Snape's mind), and the poor judgement Lupin shows. So that Snape's resentment/dislike/mistrust grows into something very dangerous. It is somewhat justified, at least from Snape's point of view. I don't think either Snape or Lupin were smart to run off to the Shrieking Shack without backup. Both of them are good guys and both have their share of faults. Potioncat From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 1 13:51:53 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:51:53 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: <20040401123649.WQHL29216.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94792 Silverthorne wrote: > **Looks at rules....looks at date...blinks....keeps > reading....starts to giggle...looks at date...actaully follows > links (Needs coffee...don't laugh...). Looks at date on calender > next to computer monitor. Reads rules again. Looks at date....** > > **Finally decides that it really *is* a post made especially for > this day...goes back to reading other posts...** > > Love the new rules, guys! Funny, funny, funny!! Thanks for the chuckle, list elves **and** Silverthorne. ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 1 14:17:25 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:17:25 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: <362E1E7C-83DC-11D8-AC3F-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94793 Kneasy wrote: > Every so often there's a trickle of posts wondering about "the > small thing in CoS that will have a bearing later" that Steve > Cloves mentioned during an interview. Siriusly Snapey Susan: How fortuitous!! Just this a.m. I was thinking how very much I'd like to get a thread started on what people think this "small thing" could be, that would actually go on for a long time w/ lots of input. Trouble is...I had no theory myself. So thanks, Kneasy! Kneasy: > However, there is something in CoS that bears thinking about - and > it isn't small (except physically) and that concerns Dobby. > What I want to concentrate on is not what they are or how they are > treated but what Dobby actually *does*. There could be a very big > clue lurking in there somewhere. > > Dobby himself tells Harry that House Elves are bound "...to serve > one house, one family." They're not interested in strangers, only > in serving the Family they are attached to. Yet Dobby adds that he > has "...come to protect Harry Potter, to warn him..." And once > again Harry misses the chance to ask some pointed questions. > > Well, there are two possible scenarios that could explain Dobby's > actions. The first, one that I put forward last year, is that > Harry *is* a member of the family that Dobby serves. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Oh, dear. All I can think of to say to this is...what would the Harry/Draco SHIPpers do if they turn out to be *family*? ;-) But on to the good stuff! Kneasy: > But a new (to me) idea has been percolating through my > admittedly twisted and conspiratorial mind. > What started me thinking was how often Dobby managed to get away > from chez Malfoy during that year. He seemed to be spending an > inordinate amount of time with Harry and at Hogwarts. How many > instructions could Lucius give that could be misunderstood? > And the timing; Siriusly Snapey Susan: Yeeees, this is something I'm sure many of us have wondered about! Kneasy: > But suppose, just suppose, that Lucius *sent* Dobby with strict > instructions to stop Harry from attending Hogwarts that year and > if necessary to warn him of danger. What could that mean? > > So although we can assume that Lucius wanted the Basilisk out and > about, eyeballing the students, he seemingly didn't want Harry > wandering around with a bulls-eye on his back. Why not? He's on > Voldy's team isn't he? > > Maybe. Although even Voldy seemed to wonder about Lucius's motives > when they were re-united in the graveyard. He claims to smell > guilt and tells Malfoy he expects a more faithful service in > future. And Malfoy's response - "My Lord, I was on the alert..." > You bet he was, but for what? Thieves fall out, a truism, but does > it apply here? And why would Lucius get Harry involved in an > possible internal DE power-play? Well, Harry is supposed to be > Voldy's nemesis. A fairly risk-free option would be to make sure > Harry survives to adulthood and the long anticipated showdown and > meanwhile Malfoy quietly builds a power base - Fudge, the Ministry, > the right people in charge of Hogwarts. Malfoy for Minister. > Sneaky. Could even work. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Okay, I'm with you so far, Kneasy, and I like this possibility, but .... Kneasy: > All this assumes that Malfoy is a thoroughly bad lot and totally > committed to the Dark side. Is he? Consider, who does Snape hang > around with, when he hangs around with anyone? Lucius. And Snape is > supposed to be the link man between Voldy and DD. What if there's > more than one link in the chain? Voldy would be mad to trust Snape, > but he trusts Malfoy, at least up until now. It would also solve > the problem of how Snape overcame his past betrayal to Voldy by > simply by-passing it. He doesn't need to grovel before Voldy hoping > like hell that Voldy's wand won't twitch and that Nagini has > already been fed if Lucius is the main source for the Order's > intelligence. Add in the interview with DD at the end of CoS. Lots > of folk have expressed surprise that DD went so easy on him after > he had caused so much trouble. A case of "You scratch my back and > I'll scratch yours," perhaps? Seduction instead of brute force? > > So Malfoy plays both ends against the middle, cooperating with both > sides to a certain extent until he can pick the winner. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Okay, HERE is where I think I'm losing it and need more detail, Kneasy. Are you saying that Voldy KNOWS Snape **is** the one who left forever, but that it doesn't matter because Snape's NOT really spying on Voldy, NOT really back in his service? That Snape's working only with Lucius...Lucius, who's really the ORDER'S SPY? Am I getting this, or have I totally screwed it up?? I DO like the part of this which goes to what kind of character Malfoy really is, and "power-hungry" and "opportunist" are two terms which jump into my mind. I've wondered why Voldy didn't give him a HARDER time in the graveyard...and yet there was that diary set-up which I *thought* did show a certain level of Voldy loyalty. So how would the diary have fit in, Kneasy? Just nastiness, to kill a few "mudbloods", but not really an attempt to bring Riddle back? Let's hear more! Siriusly Snapey Susan From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 14:43:37 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:43:37 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Does anyone think the accidental slip of the tongue was an accident? IMOCO, I don't accept the premise the slip of the tongue was accidental and, therefore, no accident. Just like Snape breaking HP's potion flask as no accident. -Joe in SoFla From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 14:56:54 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:56:54 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94795 Potioncat wrote: > > > Does anyone think the accidental slip of the tongue was an > accident? Joe answered: > IMOCO, I don't accept the premise the slip of the tongue was > accidental and, therefore, no accident. Just like Snape breaking > HP's potion flask as no accident. > Potioncat stammered: Hey, wait, didn't anyone hear the sarcasm in my voice?.. You know as in: "Just the man we've been looking for." To set the record straight. I do not believe the slip of the tongue was an accident either. Potioncat (that's what I get for defending a vampire.) ;-) From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Apr 1 15:07:02 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:07:02 -0000 Subject: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Siriusly Snapey Susan: I guess if all of what you're describing *is* the true situation, then I'd say we're back to my other argument: that, if it's really THAT important for Snape to prepare these two particular students for the inevitable battle(s) with Voldy, he's GOT to find a way to reach them. Being cruel, sarcastic & nasty doesn't seem to be cutting it w/ the two students who most need to learn, so why doesn't he STOP the drill sergeant routine w/ them and find a way to help them learn? SURELY he can *see* that it's not working with them? Why isn't he re-evaluating his technique with Harry and Neville?<< Because he's not a flexible person. His way is the only way he knows. But I think you just put your finger on why Dumbledore won't let Snape teach DADA. The one thing that whole crew of naive (Quirrell, before he became possessed), incompetent, careless, gonzo teachers hasn't done, except for Umbridge who was not Dumbledore's choice, is put Harry off the subject. Dumbledore knows Snape would make people hate DADA and he can't afford that, not with the war coming. Potion-brewing, on the other hand, is not a combat skill. It seems to be the Auror's equivalent of high-tech weaponry. The soldier needs to know how to use it and recognize it and counter it. Research and manufacturing, OTOH, generally takes place far from the battlefield. Harry's loathing of potions may hinder his career choices but so far it hasn't made much of a difference in the battles with Voldemort. And if Neville never gets near a cauldron for the rest of his life after he leaves school, Snape will probably conclude that he has done the WW a signal service. But Harry and Neville are tested under pressure in his class. They do learn to handle it, Harry better than Neville, but Neville learns too. . I suspect that whether they actually learn to brew potions as well is secondary from Dumbledore's point of view, if not Snape's. Now if this was Dumbledore's plan, then it obviously backfired when Snape had to teach Harry Occlumency, a skill which he thought Harry really did need, but not one which Dumbledore anticipated would have to be taught by Snape. I also think, as I've said before, that IMO, this was a felix culpa, since Occlumency only opened Harry's mind further to Voldemort in a way which Dumbledore, IMO, did not expect. I think Voldemort was already finding it difficult to enter Harry's mind because of the strength of Harry's positive emotions , and by clearing his mind, emptying it of emotion, Harry became more vulnerable. That's why the frequency of the dreams increased and the scar prickled more. Harry *was* learning Occlumency, and Snape was teaching it properly. It just wasn't working the way Dumbledore had hoped it would. It's possible that Dumbledore eventually realized this (I wonder how much information Prefect!Hermione passes to McGonagall?) and that's why he allowed Snape to discontinue the lessons. Interestingly, there was an article in this Sunday's New York Times magazine about a baseball coach and his Snape-like methods. The sub-title is " Was it abusive rage or tough love?" and the article suggests that sometimes it's all in the eyes of the parents. Pippin From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Apr 1 15:17:45 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:17:45 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: <362E1E7C-83DC-11D8-AC3F-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94797 Jen: I used to be a firm believer in Spy!Lucius, thinking he was actually working for the Order. Now I've ratcheted that down to ESC!Lucius, Ever-So-Compromised Lucius. Whatever is going on, Lucius does NOT want LV back in power. He had everything lined up, perfectly, to get exactly what he wants in the WW--Fudge in the MOM, seduced by wealth; a spot on the Board of Governors of Hogwarts, leading a charge to get DD out as Headmaster; a bit of Muggle-toture now and then when things get boring. And it all starts in COS, like Kneasy said: > But suppose, just suppose, that Lucius *sent* Dobby with strict > instructions to stop Harry from attending Hogwarts that year and if > necessary to warn him of danger. What could that mean? He's still not > bothered about what happens to Ginny; not surprising when we see the > animosity between Lucius and Arthur in Flourish and Blotts. He too is > only concerned about Harry. It's not really feasible that he could > foresee Harry defeating Tom, the diary and the Basilisk - Harry's only > 12, a very novice wizard and is seen more as a pest than as a dangerous > adversary. He wasn't even known to be a Parselmouth at the time of > Dobby's first visit. No, the obvious danger to the plot was DD not > Harry. And DD was neatly sidelined later, once the corridors were > strewn with stiffs. > > So although we can assume that Lucius wanted the Basilisk out and > about, eyeballing the students, he seemingly didn't want Harry > wandering around with a bulls-eye on his back. Why not? He's on > Voldy's team isn't he? Jen: This and the battle at the MOM give away Lucius' compromised position--he needs to keep Harry around. He knows Harry is the ONE. In COS, I agree with Kneasy the goal was to get DD out. I don't believe Lucius knew that Riddle could fully return out of the diary. This was an attempt to wreak havoc at Hogwarts, oust Dumbeldore, then proceed to 'rid the school of Mudbloods'. The Basilisk won't harm Draco or any other Slytherins, so Lucius doesn't have to worry about that. But, Lucius is no dummy. He doesn't believe LV is truly gone. Since he is armed with the knowledge that Harry is the only one who can defeat him, he finds it.....prudent.....to keep Harry alive. And how does he know about Harry? Well, perhaps he overheard a little conversation in the Hog's Head a long time ago. At the DOM, we again see Lucius' ambivalence. In post #86407, I proposed it was actually Lucius who started the whole 'hunt for the Prophecy' nonsense, not to defeat Harry, but LV: "Who else planted the seed of "obtaining the Prophecy" in LV's ear, luring Harry Potter to the MOM, and having LV outed to the WW? Who was the one telling all the DE's "not to kill Harry" in the DOM even though the other children were expendable in his eyes? He knows Harry is the One, and much as he and Snape despise "Potter", they want him to do their dirty business and remove LV for good. Then they, or Lucius at least, can get on with the business of running the WW in whatever way he can--bribery, under the table deals, etc." Kneasy: Although even Voldy seemed to wonder about Lucius's motives > when they were re-united in the graveyard. He claims to smell guilt > and tells Malfoy he expects a more faithful service in future. And > Malfoy's response - "My Lord, I was on the alert..." You bet he was, > but for what? Thieves fall out, a truism, but does it apply here? And > why would Lucius get Harry involved in an possible internal DE > power-play? Well, Harry is supposed to be Voldy's nemesis. A fairly > risk-free option would be to make sure Harry survives to adulthood and > the long anticipated showdown and meanwhile Malfoy quietly builds a > power base - Fudge, the Ministry, the right people in charge of > Hogwarts. Malfoy for Minister. Sneaky. Could even work. Jen: This is the dance between LV and Lucius. LV is a shrewd dictator. He is not immune to the fact that Malfoy has power in the mainstream WW, has money, has pureblood status--all the things Tom Riddle never had. Malfoy, while he may once have been young and idealistic and believed in LV's cause, is now older, wiser and more powerful---and he's not going to let some two-bit Evil Overlord who's not even pureblood (spits on floor) take anything away from him. LV suspects. But they still need at each other at this point. LV can't arouse suspicion by offing Lucius and Lucius needs to manuever LV into Potter's clutches so he can be rid of him once and for all. Kneasy: > So Malfoy plays both ends against the middle, cooperating with both > sides to a certain extent until he can pick the winner. How would that > grab him? I think he'd like it - he'd think he was being clever. Jen: He plays the middle, but there's only going to be one winner in his mind, thank you very mcuh....Lucius is on Lucius' side. From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 15:23:02 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:23:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Underage magic enforcement In-Reply-To: <1080769696.8237.334.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040401152302.63581.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94798 Message: 25 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:48:02 -0000 From: "JoAnna" Subject: Re: Underage magic enforcement Carol: << Mo: Didn't Harry get an official warning when Dobby made the cake fall on the lady's head? No wands were being used then, because Uncle Vernon had HP's wand locked away. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ From naama_gat at hotmail.com Thu Apr 1 15:27:50 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:27:50 -0000 Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94799 I (Naama) said: > > When JKR said "I don't think so", she knows (as anyone would > who is an English speaker) that it's immediately interpreted as > "as far as I know, no." So, if she said it and Snape *is* a > vampire, then she deliberately tried to create a false impression > with the participants; which is to lie. < To which Pippin replied: > You've never heard anyone say, "I don't think so, I *know* so"? Naama: I certainly have. It is a humorous phrasing, based on the fact that normally, "I don't think so" is used for a softened "no." < To think is to exercise the power of reason, and of course, JKR > does not need to reason out whether Snape is a vampire or not. > As I pointed out earlier, JKR herself uses such a construction in > one of the very first references to Snape, "At the start of term > banquet, Harry had got the idea that Professor Snape disliked > him. By then end of the first Potions lesson he knew he'd been > wrong. Professor Snape didn't dislike Harry--he *hated* him." Naama: But in her answer, she is not using "I don't think so" in a construct of any kind. She is using it au natural, so to speak. And again, in common usage, when somebody says "I don't think so" without additions, they mean to convey "as far as I know, no." What if the quote you bring would have been, "By the end of the first Potions lesson he knew he'd been wrong, Professor Snape didn't dislike Harry."? It would be senseless for the author to put it that way, for the reader to complete, in her head, "he hated him", right? In the same way, it doesn't make sense to interpret an "I don't think so" followed by a period, as the first part of a construct, ending in "I know so." > Dumbledore himself says something deliberately ambiguous in > OOP: "Tonight was supposed to be the first meeting" -- where > Fudge takes the meaning of "supposed" as "intended" but we > know that Dumbledore really means the other sense: > "presumed to be true without conclusive evidence." > > This is a deliberate attempt to mislead. But Dumbledore doesn't > appear to regard it as lying--more like he's giving Fudge a choice > about how to interpret his words, and letting Fudge jump to > conclusions. Naama: I'm sorry, but in this case Dumbledore was flat out lying to Fudge. He falsely confesses to initating DA. (It's remarkable, though beside the point of this discussion, that it is the first time in the books that Dumbledore is lying.) > All the books are filled with deliberate attempts to create false > impressions...that's what mystery stories are about! But when > you have all the facts, you see how you were led to misinterpret, > for example, Snape's actions at the first Quidditch match, or what > Quirrell meant when he said "C-can't t-tell you how p-pleased I > am to meet you." Rowling explains her attitude in the following > quote: > > Reader's Digest > December 2000 > J.K. Rowling: The Wizard Behind Harry Potter Tim Bouquet > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1200-readersdige > st-boquet.htm > > "Readers loved to be tricked, but not conned." > IMO, if she says, "No" plainly and the answer turns out to be 'Yes' > that would be a con. But if she gives an obviously cagey answer, > and we let our own eagerness to have the matter settled supply > a certainty that isn't there, then we've conned ourselves, which is > a very different matter. Naama: But I disagree with you precisely on whether her answer is cagey or not. *I* don't think it's cagey at all, *because* (sorry for repeting myself) "I don't think so" has such a clear meaning in common usage. So, in my understanding, if it turns out that Snape is vampire, her answer is a blatant con. Naama, who actually was growing quite fond of the Snape as Vampire theory From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 15:32:09 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:32:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: why DD might not want Snape for DADA job In-Reply-To: <1080782748.9310.97804.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040401153209.64965.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94800 I would love to know what his [LV] boggart looks like and whether he can fight it. Khilari Mo: Why fight a boggart when you can just AK it? However, I too am curious what form would LV's boggart take. LV doesn't really fear anything except love. How can love take a form? Any thoughts? ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ From bufo_viridis at interia.pl Thu Apr 1 15:36:17 2004 From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl) Date: 01 Apr 2004 17:36:17 +0200 Subject: ADMIN: New posting rules / What's he up to? Message-ID: <20040401153617.314391EC75B@front.interia.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 94801 > Kneasy wrote: > Every / small / Steve/ a / further / is / by / is / small / last / > Elves / treatment /repeat / point /ill / JKR / to / are / very / Harry / > family / they / to / misses / Dobby / is / colleagues / victim / Tom / the > involvement / what's / explain / year/ Dobby / an / another / giving /at / > name / theory / antecedents / she / The / pureblood /but / change / just...[snip the rest of the post] We are sorry, Kneasy, but you temporaralily suspended from posting untill your coding skills improve. You may send properly coded posts to HPfGU List Elves for checking on every odd day of the week followin the quarter of the moon. Once coding skills will be assessed to be sufficiable, your suspension will terminate. You'll be acknowledged by the owl from the Administrator. Sincerely, Viridis (in loco Administratorum) ________________________ Curiouser and curiouser! From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Thu Apr 1 15:44:25 2004 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:44:25 -0000 Subject: Molly/Arthur and Hermione/Ron Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94802 Many R/H shippers say that their relationship is like Molly and Arthur's based on the remark by Harry in the one scene in OOTP where Hermione turns to Ron for help in trying to convince Harry. I think the shippers are partially right but for the wrong reason. Ron and Hermione argue frequently, and Ron usually starts the arguments. Neither says "I'm sorry" to the other. They exchange insults and things are often left unresolved. On the other hand, Molly and Arthur do not insult each other. Molly nags Arthur and he doesn't argue back but in effect just says "yes, dear." They apologize and make up quickly. (They have also shown affection in the books, but we can't expect that yet from Ron.) They do not battle anything like Ron and Hermione. There is a whole different dynamic in their relationship. But maybe Ron is attracted to Hermione because she treats him like Molly treats Arthur? That would be at least part of the reason Ron is attracted to her. Based on his family life, that is what he expects a wife or girl friend to be like. (I shamelessly stole this point from another post.) But it doesn't work the other way: there bickering doesn't indicate that Hermione is at all interested in Ron. Instead, in OOTP she just seems genuinely annoyed with him. The constant fighting certainly doesn't mean that they were made for each other, nor is it any sign that they should be together or will end up together. It doesn't have anything to do with "sexual tension." The two do not agree on anything. They are each just too stubborn and opinionated and too different in interests and values to ever get along. None of this look promising for a lasting relationship. I'm thinking that maybe Ron will work up the courage to ask Hermione out in Book 6, and she might say "yes" because she doesn't have anything better to do. But I doubt if they can build a lasting relationship. Once they start going out, they will see they don't have that much in common or any emotional connection of a romantic type. "Opposites attract" ? maybe if they are complementary, but not if they are antagonistic like Ron and Hermione. Also being Hermione's boyfriend is going to be a challenge since she is such an impressive person (at least to me). (I also think Ron is going to die at the end of Book 7, so in any case I wouldn't plan on buying any wedding presents.) From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 16:02:30 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:02:30 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: <20040401083653.34803.qmail@web61008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, HPfGU Auror wrote: > > This ADMIN announces a new, improved type of HPfGU main-list message-formatting rules. /I/ am appalled at the new rules! Furthermore, I do not /think/ they will foster any content worthy of signing onto the list. /They're/ going to take the fun away and probably will cause /great/ consternation to all involved and mass exodus from the group. /Sincerely,/ Poisson d'AVril P.S. Is that a paper fish on my back? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 15:28:02 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:28:02 -0000 Subject: Re-reading CoS : questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94804 Hello all ! I flipped through CoS yesterday for a bit of light reading, and I have a few questions. (British Bloomsbury paperback First Edition if I'm not mistaken) 1. Okay, what's up with Snape and Malfoy !? Different looks, but same behaviour : same speech pattern as far as I can see, same coldness, same restraint, same cruel humour, same cold rage when angered. I won't give any examples, but just read the descriptions of Malfoy and then Snape, it's eerie and scary ! Add to that their obvious complicity against all odds, and I have to ask : what's going on ? And in a world where Metamorphagi (?) exist, I have to ask : have we ever seen Malfoy and Snape together ? Or have we ever seen one when we know for sure where the other is ? Because otherwise, I have to postulate that Snape and Malfoy could very well be one and the same person... (Canon counter-proofs more than welcome, because I get a headache just thinking of the implications of this possibility ! Though it would finally explain why Snape seemed to be almost smiling when Mrs Norris was found Petrified : he would be pleased that his plan worked) 2. What's up with Penelope Clearwater ? Why did she stay at Hogwarts for Christmas if her love affair with Percy wasn't supposed to be public, and why was she roaming the castle all alone ? What was she doing all alone around the library when everyone had gone down to the Quidditch pitch ? Both occurences being especially suspicious in the light of her being a Muggle-born, and thus especially at risk of being attacked. I can't find my PoA book, so I can't check up on her next year. I can't remember her doing anything suspicious, but still I'm wondering if Miss Clearwater is as clear as spring water... 3. The Chamber of Secrets : considering its name and its size, I'm fairly sure it was built to contain more than just the Basilisk. What those other secrets are, I can only guess. But one thing I did notice : the pipe that leads to it is described as having smaller pipes branching off it (p. 324), and the many pillars in the Chamber are all entwined by a big carved snake (p.329). Could this be some kind of Army of Slytherin ? Not just the Basilisk, but a whole army of smaller (but still big) snakes, that could invade the whole castle at once through the many pipes ? Tom could have missed it, he might have not realised that the Basilisk was only the leader of a whole army. Will this army come into play later ? And if so, WHO will be leading it ? Harry, or LV ? 4. Salazar Slytherin, or rather his statue : it is described as having an "ancient and monkey-like" face (p. 329). Unusual description, which put in my mind the image of a goblin. Could there be a connection between SS and the goblins ? Could SS be the ultimate fraud, pretending to want to clean Hogwarts of all non- purebloods when he in fact was half-goblin ? Another, much wilder, idea is that the whole goblin race could have been created, maybe even fostered somehow, by SS. What do we know about them ? I can't remember anything specific, apart from their perpetual wars, which happened only a few centuries ago if I recall correctly. Oh, and they seem to love underground tunnels as much as SS... I would welcome any canon info supporting or refuting these theories. 5. What happened to the basilisk fang Harry used to destroy the Diary ? I couldn't find any mention of it. 6. Myrtle's death : she describes it as follows. 'Ooooh, it was dreadful,' she said with relish. 'It happened right in here. I died in this very cubicle. I remember it so well. I'd hidden because Olive Hornby was teasing me about my glasses. The door was locked, and I was crying, and then I heard somebody come in. They said something funny. A different language, I think it must have been. Anyway, what really got me was that it was a *boy* speaking. So I unlocked the door, to tell him to go and use his own toilet, and then -' Myrtle swelled importantly, her face shining, 'I *died*.' Well, I'm bothered about the sequence. She says that Tom came in, which I believe means *through the door*. I mean, if Tom had come back all the way up the pipe (and *how*, by the way, *did* he come back up the pipe all those times ???), she wouldn't describe it as "someone came in", would she ? Moreover, I think she would have noticed if there had been a big great hole in place of one of the sinks, no matter how distressed she was when she herself came in. Then Tom spoke, Myrtle came out of the cubicle, and died right away. That would mean the Basilisk was right there in the pipe, waiting to get out of it the moment Tom opened the entrance. It doesn't sound terribly realistic to me. I don't see what it could hide, I'm just bothered. I'll stop here for today. I'll welcome any comment, including the ones implying or even stating clearly that I am completely out of my mind :-) Del From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Apr 1 11:43:22 2004 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:43:22 -0000 Subject: feelings...nothing more than feelings... (was: Re: Harry's disposition ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94805 I wrote: <> and Joe responded: <> I would say that it's because it's mainly because he's a child (and now a teenager) with a great gift who hasn't yet learned self- discipline. And I don't say that in an overly critical way as he spent all of his life before Hogwarts in a safe but miserable life. After he learns who he is and what he can do, his life becomes, in some ways, less miserable, and in all ways, more dangerous. I find his impetuousness and, yes, recklessness, to be somewhat understandable in that context as he tries out his new life. (Well, OK, maybe I am a little less thrilled with his behavior in OoP as the consequences of his willfulness grow more serious.) I might also say that it's also due, to some extent, to a passive- aggressive streak Harry is learning from...Snape. jujube (who is also worried that Harry will magically [no pun intended] be transformed into some super-perfect superhero and whos should instead be worried about catching the bus to work) From hannah at readysolve.com Thu Apr 1 13:55:26 2004 From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:55:26 -0000 Subject: Could Snape be part goblin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94806 I think after reading the replies that my theory was less likely than I thought. I still think it's *possible*. And I know we've seen Snape's parents, I was thinking part goblin not half goblin. Still, there is very little evidence. Part of the reason I put it on here was to see if it could survive contact with those who know the books better than I do, and apparently it can't. I still think it is more likely than vampire!Snape, if only because of the lack of red-herring style clues. All the same it *is* more probable that Snape is human, so I concede this arguement. Khilari. From amycrn4230 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 14:14:00 2004 From: amycrn4230 at yahoo.com (amycrn4230) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:14:00 -0000 Subject: Wizards and Fickle Fame? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chelle" wrote: > I find it really strange that in book 2 Lockhart is the most popular > wizard around and in the 5th book the nurse hardly knows anything of > his fame. > Are the healers supposed to be that busy they're segregated, or is > fame really that fickle? > > ~ Chelle > Who here remembers Milli Vanilli? This is my first post, so forgive me if I do this wrong, but anywho...I think you are right in that the healers are so busy they are indeed segregated and don't really care much for the world of celebrity...and I remember Milli Vanilli....Blame it on the rain was a fav! AmyC From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 1 16:19:13 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:19:13 -0000 Subject: Molly/Arthur and Hermione/Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94808 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Bite your tongue, boy! But I fear you may be right about Ron. At any rate, as a former Hermione turned McGonagall, I think Hermione really does have sort of teenage romantic feelings for Ron, if only because he's such a *guy*. He fascinates her. --JDR (spinster lady, sighing nostalgically) From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 15:41:57 2004 From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (Vickey) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:41:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] No one was to blame... I think. In-Reply-To: <20040401033309.69367.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040401154157.5556.qmail@web14806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94809 Pippin wrote: <> and Justine responded: <> Vickey: All I'm going to say is this...Snape did come to see Lupin because he hadn't taken his potion that night, but who says that Lupin had to wait for Snape to bring it to him? Lupin could have gone to the dungeons himself to get it. He had been taking it for at least 9 months during POA...it would have been a routine and I doubt that Snape always delivered it, but as for Lupin, it is possible, however out of character, that he forgot it in his disbelief at what he saw on the map. As for telling DD, remember this, DD was with Fudge and McNair...what do you think would have happened to Sirius then? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 1 15:54:38 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:54:38 -0000 Subject: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94810 Siriusly Snapey Susan: > if it's really THAT important for Snape to prepare these two > particular students for the inevitable battle(s) with Voldy, he's > GOT to find a way to reach them. Being cruel, sarcastic & nasty > doesn't seem to be cutting it w/ the two students who most need to > learn, so why doesn't he STOP the drill sergeant routine w/ them > and find a way to help them learn? SURELY he can *see* that it's > not working with them? Why isn't he re-evaluating his > technique with Harry and Neville?<< Pippin: > Because he's not a flexible person. His way is the only way he > knows. But I think you just put your finger on why Dumbledore > won't let Snape teach DADA. The one thing that whole crew of > naive (Quirrell, before he became possessed), incompetent, > careless, gonzo teachers hasn't done, except for Umbridge who > was not Dumbledore's choice, is put Harry off the subject. > Dumbledore knows Snape would make people hate DADA and > he can't afford that, not with the war coming. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Fascinating thought. That sometimes it really can be something so simple as "he's not flexible", when I suppose the tendency is to over- analyze. I like how this fits w/ the DADA thing if, indeed, Snape really did want that job. Pippin: > Harry's loathing of potions may hinder his career choices but so > far it hasn't made much of a difference in the battles with > Voldemort. But Harry and Neville are tested under pressure > in his class. They do learn to handle it, Harry better than > Neville, but Neville learns too. Siriusly Snapey Susan: All true enough. It does seem that Snape's treatment of Harry *in potions class* has NOT caused him to have an overall crisis of self- confidence, for he's gone right on taking risks and rising to the challenges he's encountered [or gone after]. Pippin: > Now if this was Dumbledore's plan, then it obviously backfired > when Snape had to teach Harry Occlumency, a skill which he > thought Harry really did need, but not one which Dumbledore > anticipated would have to be taught by Snape. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Agreed. Pippin: > I also think, as I've said before, that IMO, this was a felix > culpa, since Occlumency only opened Harry's mind further to > Voldemort in a way which Dumbledore, IMO, did not expect. I think > Voldemort was already finding it difficult to enter Harry's mind > because of the strength of Harry's positive emotions, and by > clearing his mind, emptying it of emotion, Harry became more > vulnerable. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Or, alternatively, perhaps the presence of *negative* emotions & thoughts--anger, rage, hatred regarding Snape--made it "riper" ground for Voldy to enter. I offer this because I'm not sure Harry was really having that much luck emptying himself of emotion. Pippin: > Interestingly, there was an article in this Sunday's New York > Times magazine about a baseball coach and his Snape-like > methods. The sub-title is " Was it abusive rage or tough love?" > and the article suggests that sometimes it's all in the eyes of the > parents. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Surely you don't think Snape is capable of [tough] loving *Harry*?! ;- ) Siriusly Snapey Susan From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 16:47:22 2004 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 08:47:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4425 In-Reply-To: <1080827590.8408.2873.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040401164722.67598.qmail@web10003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94811 Simplify two-digit numbers thus: 2+9 = 7 silly me I spent all those years thinking it was 11 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 16:05:23 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:05:23 -0000 Subject: Wizards and Fickle Fame? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94812 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chelle" wrote: > > I find it really strange that in book 2 Lockhart is the most > popular > > wizard around and in the 5th book the nurse hardly knows anything > of > > his fame. > > Are the healers supposed to be that busy they're segregated, or is > > fame really that fickle? > > > > ~ Chelle > > Who here remembers Milli Vanilli? > > > Potioncat: > No, I think Lockhart was very popular within his fan group, but that > those with other interests wouldn't know much about him. I > personally know that Grisholm is a popular author, but I couldn't > tell you what he writes or what he looks like. > > I think it's interesting that Molly still has his books in OoP. Julie (lip-synching my reply while the real author slaves away beside me)...I agree with Potioncat, and milli v- v- v- (stomps the floor) what? (lol) From pt4ever at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 16:55:21 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:55:21 -0000 Subject: Re-reading CoS : questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94813 > Del: > 1. Okay, what's up with Snape and Malfoy !? Different looks, but > same behaviour : same speech pattern as far as I can see, same > coldness, same restraint, same cruel humour, same cold rage when > angered. I won't give any examples, but just read the descriptions > of Malfoy and then Snape, it's eerie and scary ! Add to that their > obvious complicity against all odds, and I have to ask : what's > going on ? > And in a world where Metamorphagi (?) exist, I have to ask : have we > ever seen Malfoy and Snape together ? JoAnna: Problem being that we see Snape at Hogwarts in OotP after Lucius has been sent to Azkaban. I'm sure the guards at Azkaban would notice if Lucius was gone. > Del: > I can't find my PoA book, so I can't check up on her next year. I > can't remember her doing anything suspicious, but still I'm > wondering if Miss Clearwater is as clear as spring water... JoAnna: Perhaps she and Percy were having a quick tryst, taking advantage of the fact that most of the school was at the Quidditch pitch and they wouldn't be interrupted? After all, we don't know where Percy was... perhaps he left after Penelope and was the one who alerted the teachers to the fact that she & HG had been Petrified. I see a scenario like this one: Percy and Penelope agree to meet in a dark corner of the library for a quick tryst while everyone else is at the Quidditch match. They're interrupted by Hermione, who's so intent on looking up facts about the Basilisk that she doesn't notice them. Percy tells Penelope to leave, and he'll follow her in five minutes (so it doesn't look like they're leaving together). Penelope leaves, Hermione runs after her and tells her to look around corners with the mirror, 'cause the monster of Slytherin is a basilisk. Penelope and Hermione look past a corner with the mirror, and BAM! Petrification. Five minutes later, Percy leaves the library and stumbles upon their Petrified bodies. He raises the alarm, and McGonagall goes out to the Quidditch pitch to cancel the match. I hope we can learn more about Penelope in future books, or at least more about Percy's relationship (former, I'm guessing) with her. I'm sure Minister Fudge wouldn't be happy if his Jr. Assistant was in love with a Mudblood! > Del: > 5. What happened to the basilisk fang Harry used to destroy the > Diary ? I couldn't find any mention of it. JoAnna: I don't have my book handy, but I think Harry threw it aside after the diary was destroyed. It's probably still sitting in the CoS. > Del: > 6. Myrtle's death : she describes it as follows. > JoAnna: I'm guessing that Tom Riddle brought a broomstick or another means of magical transporation with him after the first time he entered the CoS, and that's how he got back up - or perhaps he rode the Basilisk! Either that or there's another exit somewhere in the chamber that Harry didn't find (i.e. an exit, but not an entrance). I don't find it odd that the Basilisk was right there in the pipe - likely Tom opened the pipe and called to the Basilisk, and it was just emerging from the pipe (to go out and kill more Mudbloods) when Myrtle came out of the stall. Likely she didn't notice the sink or TMR because the snake was so huge. - JoAnna From rredordead at aol.com Thu Apr 1 17:27:24 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 17:27:24 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Crucio. W as: Bellatrix and the Crucio In-Reply-To: <000401c4177a$ebb3e1e0$b1570043@intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94815 > --Eric wrote: > Eric, who thinks that with his anger issues, he could have Crucio'd > Bellatrix to a crispy critter with no problem whatsoever. Mandy here: Interesting post, but I'm going to comment on you signing off remark. I disagree. No matter how angry Harry is right now, anger is not what is required to produce an effective Crucio. According to Bellatrix "You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain ? to enjoy it - righteous anger won't hurt me for long " OotP Pg 715 UK edition. According to Merriam Websters; righteous means: Reacting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin. 2 a : morally right or justifiable. b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality. 3 slang : Genuine, good So it doesn't matter how angry Harry is, and his anger is genuine and good or *righteous*. To produce an effective Cruciatus Curse, what's required it the desire to really hurt someone. To *need* (not want) to cause them pain. And to *enjoy* causing that pain. That is sadism in it's purest form. That is what is required for the Cruciatus Curse. That is what makes it Unforgivable. Harry is not there, thank goodness. Let's hope he never reaches that dark place, or we've lost out hero for good. Cheers Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Thu Apr 1 17:53:30 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 17:53:30 -0000 Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94816 > Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: > > I'm sorry, JDR, but I think this goes way too far. It might be > > nice if you were to phrase this as an opinion. Some of us > > actually kinda like Hermione...>>> > > > > The Sergeant Majorette said: Hermione is as much a bitch as any Narcissa or Bellatrix type. Way too many plain, nerdy females slink around being nice and sweet > > and politically correct as if they had to compensate somehow for > > not contributing to the decor. > > Our girl has a mean streak and she's not afraid to indulge it. > > She's plain and totally not bothered about it. She's smart and not afraid to show it, even if it scares the boys away. And if you get on her sh*t list, she will jack you up definitively, without a > > moment of hesitation or a shred of compunction. Like Ron says in > > the movie, "...brilliant, but scary." > > Bravissima. > Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: I did address this earlier today [#94673], when I responded to > someone who said they believed you meant "bitch" in a positive > light. I simply hadn't been sure from reading your post whether > that's what you meant, and I've not been around HPfGU long enough to know posthaste who the big Hermione supporters are. Now that I know you did mean that in a positive light, fine. Although I prefer a less *loaded* word than bitch to describe our Hermione's strength & > brass. Semantics, I guess. Mandy here: Bravissima indeed. And both of you have solid ground to stand on. The title Bitch still has a lot of negative connotations surrounding it, and that raise the hackles on a lot of woman. Although it is up to us women to reclaim the word and be proud of it. But, this is on topic, I promise... IMO Harry Potter, Ron Wesealy and Draco Malfoy are just as much Bitches as our Hermione is. They are all strong, defiant, mouthy, independent, tend toward selfishness and self-centeredness. They all believe their shit don't stink, and all of them have an indulgent, mean streak as Sergeant Majorette points out about Hermione. The only difference being it's more accepted for the boys to behave this way. But that is slowly changing. ;-) Hermione, is equal to the boys in the boys in every way. As all girls are. Sometimes she's stronger, sometimes she's weaker. Sometimes she's better, sometimes she's worse. Brava Hermione and her creator! Cheers, Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Thu Apr 1 17:59:33 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 17:59:33 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94817 Oh my goodness! I lied about my date of birth! Yep! Of course I did. I'm a woman! And I didn't think was necessary for joining a web site! ;-) I can't remember what year I picked. It was random. I proberbly made myself 20 again! Good grief! Mandy From yahoo at azakit.com Thu Apr 1 15:22:44 2004 From: yahoo at azakit.com (azakitpgr) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:22:44 -0000 Subject: Edition Differences (WAS: Re: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94818 Carol wrote: < >> Carolyn wrote: <> I (PGR) write: I have two copies of GoF, they are both UK editions. The first is the 12th typesetting and has the "Priori Incantatem" mistake. The second is the 21st typesetting and has the amended "Priori Incantatem". Both typesettings agree with Carolyn's first edition: Fawcett in Hufflepuff & Stebbins in Ravenclaw. PGR From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 18:16:19 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:16:19 -0000 Subject: Broomstick Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94819 J. Spencer wrote: > Heads up, Quidditch fans and canon experts! > > My apologies if this has been dealt with previously, but can anyone > tell me whether it's indicated in canon whether a racing broomstick > can carry more than one person? > > If it can be done, what effect does it have on speed, > maneuverability, etc? > > If it can't, what happens if one tries? > > If it's not mentioned at all, can I get some opinions on the subject? The only applicable instances I can recall (not having read QTA) are the Quidditch World Cup, in which the injured Irish seeker rides on the back of a teammate's broom for the victory lap and Ron's suggestion to "Professor Moody" (Barty, Jr.) that Mr. Crouch was carried away from the Forbidden Forest on a broom (to which Crouch!Moody, who knows very well what really happened, replies noncommitally, "We can't rule out kidnapping"). Both examples are from GoF: Sorry I don't have time to look up the page numbers. As for the effects on speed and maneuverability, I can't say, but I imagine that a kidnapper who literally had his hands full keeping an unconscious victim on the broom would not be terribly concerned with such matters. (The Quidditch player's broom, a Firebolt, IIRC, didn't seem to be affected by its extra burden.) Hope this is helpful. Carol From tipgardner at netscape.net Thu Apr 1 18:37:00 2004 From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:37:00 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94820 "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Kneasy wrote: >>Dobby himself tells Harry that House Elves are bound "...to serve one house, one family." They're not interested in strangers, only in serving the Family they are attached to. Yet Dobby adds that he has "...come to protect Harry Potter, to warn him..." And once again Harry misses the chance to ask some pointed questions.<< >>Well, there are two possible scenarios that could explain Dobby's actions. The first, one that I put forward last year, is that Harry *is* a member of the family that Dobby serves.<< Tip wonders (all whilst marvelling at the subtle genius of Kneasy): Perhaps a more Occam friendly explanation is that unlike the case of Kreacher, Lucius never thought to expressly forbid Dobby from leaving. That would be particularly useful to Dobby's unauthorized travel habits if he often did errands external to Malfoy Manor. Kneasy continued: >> A fairly risk-free option would be to make sure Harry survives to adulthood and the long anticipated showdown and meanwhile Malfoy quietly builds a power base - Fudge, the Ministry, the right people in charge of Hogwarts. Malfoy for Minister.<< Tip opined: Although Lucius seems to have overplayed the DE part (getting caught by DD in CoS and by everyone in the OotP for a head of the MoM role. Kneasy: >> So Malfoy plays both ends against the middle, cooperating with both sides to a certain extent until he can pick the winner.<< Tip: Except that Harry and his group, who will presumably come to power if he defeats Voldie, will never trust Malfoy and will reject his attempts at power. Snapey Susan wrote: > I DO like the part of this which goes to what kind of character > Malfoy really is, and "power-hungry" and "opportunist" are two > terms which jump into my mind. Tip: Opportunist, perhaps, but isn't Malfoy already about as powerful as one can be in the wizarding world without having to hold a position beholden to the public, which I assume would be distasteful to him? Tip Check out my journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/tipgardner Check out my fan fiction: http://www.schnoogle.com From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 18:36:02 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:36:02 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94821 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Hey, wait, didn't anyone hear the sarcasm in my voice?.. You know as > in: "Just the man we've been looking for." > > To set the record straight. I do not believe the slip of the tongue > was an accident either. Well, it's April Fools Day, so I considered that discretion was the better part of valor. -Joe in SoFla From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 18:42:15 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:42:15 -0000 Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94822 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > But I disagree with you precisely on whether her answer is cagey or > not. *I* don't think it's cagey at all, *because* (sorry for repeting > myself) "I don't think so" has such a clear meaning in common usage. > So, in my understanding, if it turns out that Snape is vampire, her > answer is a blatant con. The answer is cagey because of the QUESTION that prompted said answer. The question *was not* "Is Snape a vampire?" but was, instead, "Is Snape linked to vampires?" Even the answer "Absolutely not!" is somewhat vague, because the information the questioner wants to obtain is not encapsulated perfectly by the question. -Joe in SoFla, who is NOT a proponent of the Vampire!Snape theory, but merely open-minded. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 18:33:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:33:27 -0000 Subject: Snape's and LV's boggarts (Was: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94823 > Khilari wrote: > As a related thought, does LV have a sense of humour? I would love to > know what his boggart looks like and whether he can fight it. > > Berit replies: > > Love your question Khilari :-) According to canon, there are only two > things Voldemort fears: Death and Dumbledore! Whether the Dark Lord > can muster enough humour to tackle a boggart in the shape of any of > them, I don't know... Carol: Good point, Berit! DD is "the only one he ever feared," which would make him the logical boggart, but it's also possible that he envisions himself dead, rather like Mrs. Weasley's boggart but more self-centered. It would be relatively easy to make DD ridiculous if LV has any sense of humor at all, but not so easy to do the same with his own death. (Are you listening, Harry? Loose a boggart on LV!) Speaking of boggarts, I've been thinking of JKR's unanswered question about Snape's boggart and what he might be afraid of. The only thing I can think of (related to his possible reasons for switching to Dumbledore's side) is the fear of having to perform an Unforgiveable Curse on an innocent person. (Regulus Black died for exactly that reason.) I'm not sure how that could be made into a boggart, much less how it could be made ridiculous, but it seems to me like a logical fear for Snape. Another possibility, of course, is fear of being caught in his double agent game, which would account for the pale face and glittering eyes at the end of GoF. Maybe he would see himself in Regulus Black's place. But again, how would he make that ridiculous? Carol, who wonders if Harry will see Snape's boggart and rescue him from it ( don't think Snape would be grateful!) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 1 18:52:23 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:52:23 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94824 Kneasy suggested: >> A fairly risk-free option would be to make sure Harry survives to >> adulthood and the long anticipated showdown and meanwhile Malfoy >> quietly builds a power base - Fudge, the Ministry, the right >> people in charge of Hogwarts. Malfoy for Minister. >> So Malfoy plays both ends against the middle, cooperating with >> both sides to a certain extent until he can pick the winner. Tip: > Except that Harry and his group, who will presumably come to power > if he defeats Voldie, will never trust Malfoy and will reject his > attempts at power. SIRIUSLY SNAPEY SUSAN replies to Tip: I won't DARE to speak for Kneasy, who's lightyears ahead of me in the nefarious plot category, but I would assume that Lucius is arrogant enough to believe he could handle Harry & crew, should Harry prevail. *Also*, if I understood Kneasy right [still waiting for confirmation or denial], Lucius will have been acting as a spy for the Order all this time, so he'd have more of an in than if he's "merely" a DE. Snapey Susan responded to Kneasy's post: > > I DO like the part of this which goes to what kind of character > > Malfoy really is, and "power-hungry" and "opportunist" are two > terms which jump into my mind. Tip: > Opportunist, perhaps, but isn't Malfoy already about as powerful as > one can be in the wizarding world without having to hold a position > beholden to the public, which I assume would be distasteful to him? SIRIUSLY SNAPEY SUSAN replies to Tip: Perhaps he is *now*. But what if his ultimate plan is to wait patiently while Harry & the Order do the dirty work of wining the war, thus having Voldy out of the way permanently [eliminating problem #1], and then [for problem #2] to reveal the next phase of his plan, which is to get rid Harry and any other Good Guys who remain after the final battle w/ Voldy? Perhaps Lucius believes it likely that key Good Guys will be killed during said battle--DD, Mad- Eye, McGonagall, Severus??--and that his path to the heights of power will be blocked "merely" by Harry and a few of his sundry supporters, such as Hermione, Ron, Neville & the like. I could see it. All he'd have to do is find a way to stay away from the dangers of battle 'til Voldy & many of the Good Guys are dead.... Siriusly Snapey Susan From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 18:54:52 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:54:52 -0000 Subject: Re-reading CoS : questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94825 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "JoAnna" wrote: > Problem being that we see Snape at Hogwarts in OotP after Lucius has > been sent to Azkaban. I'm sure the guards at Azkaban would notice > if Lucius was gone. Someone will correct me, but didn't the Dementors "quit" Azkaban at the end of OotP? -Joe in SoFla From rredordead at aol.com Thu Apr 1 19:01:42 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:01:42 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: <362E1E7C-83DC-11D8-AC3F-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94826 > Kneasy > So Malfoy plays both ends against the middle, cooperating with both > sides to a certain extent until he can pick the winner. How would >that grab him? I think he'd like it - he'd think he was being >clever. Until the fight in the Ministry. Still, not too bad - the >Dementors have gone and Voldy will no doubt get him sprung fairly >soon. > What can we expect? Contrition, a mending of his ways or an even >more fanatical adherence to the DE cause? Place your bets. Not many >posters have had a close look at Malfoy recently, he seems to slip >under the radar. Too slippery by half - I think he bears watching. Mandy here: What can we expect? Malfoy as Minister of Magic. As you say Lucius is too slippery by half and I would not be surprised if Lucius manages to spin the whole MoM incident in to his promotion in to the position of Minister. Very possible imo. Both Fudge and DD are in impossible positions at the end of book 5. Both have their hands firmly tied and I really don't see how either can effectively explain what happened in the Dept. on Mysteries. Witnesses put LV firmly back in the WW. A group of escaped DE's broke into the Ministry to steal a prophecy orb, and would have been successful if DD and his Order had not shown up to save the day. Sounds good, but how is DD going to explain the presence of 6 children, from his supposedly secure school at the Dept of Mysteries, dueling to the death!? And how is Fudge going to explain the return of LV, and security that is so lax at the MoM, to allow wanted Azakban escapees entrance? I don't think either can explain any of it without a severe cover up. And inside that cover up, is plenty of room for manovering, especially for someone as slippery and as powerful as Lucius Malfoy. I pretty confidant Fudge is out. What about DD? After the presence of children at the MoM he is barely going to hold on to his position as Headmaster, let alone Minister. So the position of Minister is going to be vacant, and all Lucius Malfoy needs is a good Lawyer, (Narcissa anyone?) to argue that yes he was at the MOM late that night and heard a ruckus downstairs. Went down to investigate and came across wanted DE's causing mayhem. Lucius joined in the fray to defend the Orb and the MoM and was then wrongly arrested in the chaos. Who's to claim other wise? DD? He appeared half way threw the fight, and can claim he saw Lucius fighting Order members, but Lucius' defense would simply claim that Lucius witnesses a group of wizards fighting, who was on whos side, was just not clear. Or he was simply fighting in his own self- defense. The testimony of the children is sketchy at best, if it even admissible. The presence of the 6 kids is a huge embarrassment, and who's going to believe the testimony of Harry who has already been proven to be psychologically unstable by most of the wizarding media? Yet another of Harry's fantasizes. First question I would ask Harry Potter in Lucius' defense is: What were you doing there? To which Harry would reply: " Rescuing Sirius." "The convicted and escaped mass murder, Sirius Black?" Would be the reply." "Yes." "And are we to believe that the whole Auror Dept of the MoM can't find Sirius, but you knew all along where he was?" "Yes." "Really and where is he now?" And so on and so on and so on. Any testimony by Harry is useless. Testimony by DD is a little more secure, but will the WW believe him? When he appears to be training an army of children at his school. The rest of the Order can be easily discredited: Lupin is a Werewolf. Shaklebolt and Tonks are Ministry Aorors who have spent the last 2 years aiding and abetting Sirius Black. Not to mention they've both been passing on Ministry information to DD. Can anyone say fired! The evidence against Lucius Malfoy is circumstantial and witnessed by people in chaos. An effective Lawyer could not only get Lucius off, but also make him look like a hero. Now wouldn't that be fun? Cheers, Mandy From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 19:02:47 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:02:47 -0000 Subject: Re-reading CoS : questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94827 Del wrote: > I flipped through CoS yesterday for a bit of light reading, and I > have a few questions. > (British Bloomsbury paperback First Edition if I'm not mistaken) > > 1. Okay, what's up with Snape and Malfoy !? Different looks, but > same behaviour : same speech pattern as far as I can see, same > coldness, same restraint, same cruel humour, same cold rage when > angered. I won't give any examples, but just read the descriptions > of Malfoy and then Snape, it's eerie and scary ! Add to that their > obvious complicity against all odds, and I have to ask : what's > going on ? > Potioncat: Owners and their pets often start to resemble each other. April Fools. Well, I noticed that Draco speaks like Snape in PoA (I think) I hadn't noticed it before although it was very obvious. Potioncat From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 18:50:40 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:50:40 -0000 Subject: feelings...nothing more than feelings... (was: Re: Harry's disposition ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" wrote: > I would say that it's because it's mainly because he's a child (and > now a teenager) with a great gift who hasn't yet learned self- > discipline. And I don't say that in an overly critical way as he > spent all of his life before Hogwarts in a safe but miserable life. > After he learns who he is and what he can do, his life becomes, in > some ways, less miserable, and in all ways, more dangerous. I find > his impetuousness and, yes, recklessness, to be somewhat > understandable in that context as he tries out his new life. What I meant by my question was: Why do you (and other HPfGUers) suppose he is hesitant (or worse, adamant not) to reach out for that counsel? In a sense, his impetuousness blinded him and because he didn't stop to remember the 2-way mirror, it might be said he contributed to Sirius' death. -Joe in SoFla From steffy07 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 19:14:13 2004 From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:14:13 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94829 > Mandy here: > Both Fudge and DD are in impossible positions at the end of book 5. > Both have their hands firmly tied and I really don't see how either > can effectively explain what happened in the Dept. on Mysteries. > Witnesses put LV firmly back in the WW. A group of escaped DE's broke > into the Ministry to steal a prophecy orb, and would have been > successful if DD and his Order had not shown up to save the day. > Sounds good, but how is DD going to explain the presence of 6 > children, from his supposedly secure school at the Dept of Mysteries, > dueling to the death!? And how is Fudge going to explain the return > of LV, and security that is so lax at the MoM, to allow wanted > Azakban escapees entrance? I don't think either can explain any of it > without a severe cover up. And inside that cover up, is plenty of > room for manovering, especially for someone as slippery and as > powerful as Lucius Malfoy. > > I pretty confidant Fudge is out. What about DD? After the presence > of children at the MoM he is barely going to hold on to his position > as Headmaster, let alone Minister. > > So the position of Minister is going to be vacant, and all Lucius > Malfoy needs is a good Lawyer Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't good ole' Lucius already at Azkaban? At the end of OOTP, Harry and Draco have a confrontation and Harry says he's already gotten Lucius in prison, and Draco says he wont' stay in there long, not without the Dementors guarding it? I don't have my book, so I may be recalling things incorrectly. Steffy From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 19:19:22 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (ms_melanie1999) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:19:22 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94830 Berit replies: Really great!!! I'm quite impressed with the work the ADMIN has put into these excellent new rules :-) The best I've read so far today (and I've read quite a few newspapers...) Berit My "Mela" reply: OMG I did not just figure out all my dates, about to write a really mean reply to the administration and get all upset just to realize what day it was on the calendar. ~Melanie From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 19:36:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:36:27 -0000 Subject: Favoring Crabbe & Goyle? [was:Re: OT: Drill Sergeant] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94831 I (Carol) wrote: Quick question here. What evidence do we have of Snape favoring Crabbe and Goyle? As far as we know, they could be among the "dunderheads" who received D's (for "dreadful") on the essays that Snape graded to OWL standards. I also can't recall him praising them in or out of class. IIRC, he mostly ignores them. Siriusly Snapey Susan responded: One quick one for you, Carol. Though it's perhaps not outright *favoritism*, it could perhaps be argued as favoritism [haha--have I covered myself w/ that?]. Anyway, one of the times when Snape "vanishes" Harry's potion and gives me a zero [1st potions lesson of OoP], Goyle's potion also went horrendously wrong and it was ignored by Snape. After the lesson Hermione points out how unfair Snape was being, to have singled out Harry, and she said that Goyle's potion actually broke the flask & caught his robes on fire. Now, we do NOT know whether Goyle received a zero or some other grade, but we do know that Snape did not "evanesco" Ron's, Seamus', Neville's, or Goyle's, as he did Harry's. In sum, that might be seen as favoritism towards the others, or it might simply be seen as unfairness towards Harry. [I know, I know-- *or* as trying to get Potter to pay attention.] Siriusly Snapey Susan...who still thinks this takes nothing away from Neri's point that a drill sergeant who loses credibility through favoritism also potentially loses his underlings' commitment to follow him. Carol responds: Hi, Susan. IMO, Snape just ignores Goyle (and Crabbe as well), not only in the incident you mention but in general. They're "dunderheads" whose fathers happen to be DEs so, as head of Slytherin and an undercover spy, he can't openly express the contempt he feels for them. He probably gave Goyle's potion the grade (mark) it deserved (very near to zero) and said nothing about it. (No canon for that assumption but I think it would be in character for Snape.) I think that Snape's strict standards in grading to OWL standards on the essay I mentioned earlier apply to everyone: He really *doesn't* want "dunderheads" in his NEWT Potions classes. (He'd prefer not to deal with them at all.) But his particular criticism of Harry and Neville (and possibly of the Gryffindors in general) is intended (as you said) to get them to follow directions. Also, as Pippin pointed out recently, his treatment of them is nothing to what they'll be facing with LV. They *must* learn to deal calmly with someone they *perceive* as an enemy so that they can cope with a real enemy when they encounter one. (Snape uses the same tactic in Occlumency: "You are handing *me* weapons to use against you!" He means, but can't say, "You are handing Voldemort weapons to use against you.") Snape, IMO, really does dislike Harry, but he isn't hurting him out of spite. He's trying to toughen him (and Neville) up for the battle ahead. (I'm not arguing that the strategy works, only that I think it's what he's attempting to do, with Dumbledore's full knowledge and (possibly) encouragement.) As for getting "underlings" to follow him, Snape (as far as I can tell) isn't going to be a battle captain with his students at his command and consequently he isn't concerned about Harry's or Goyle's or anyone else's loyalty to *himself*. IMO, he wants to prepare Harry in particular and anyone else who's loyal to *Dumbledore* to fight against LV. As for Crabbe and Goyle, who may well end up on the wrong side, the more inept they are, the better. (I haven't seen Snape offering them Remedial Potions. Have you? ;-) ) Did I answer all your questions, SSS? And can you and Neri answer mine (regarding evidence of actually, as opposed to ignoring, Crabbe and Goyle)? Carol, who would have presented these opinions in her original post but wanted to hear from Neri first From tipgardner at netscape.net Thu Apr 1 19:36:11 2004 From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:36:11 -0000 Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94832 "jmgarciaiii" wrote: > The answer is cagey because of the QUESTION that prompted said > answer. The question *was not* "Is Snape a vampire?" but was, > instead, "Is Snape linked to vampires?" Even the answer "Absolutely > not!" is somewhat vague, because the information the questioner > wants to obtain is not encapsulated perfectly by the question. > -Joe Tip shrugs: I hate to sound snippy, but how is "Absolutely not!" an unequivocal or somewhat vague answer? E.g. Am I connected to the production of HP? Absolutely not! Very little room for interpretation there. Tip Check out my journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/tipgardner Check out my fan fiction: http://www.schnoogle.com From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 19:47:48 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:47:48 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94833 Kneasy wrote: But a new (to me) idea has been percolating through my admittedly twisted and conspiratorial mind. What started me thinking was how often Dobby managed to get away from chez Malfoy during that year. He seemed to be spending an inordinate amount of time with Harry and at Hogwarts. How many instructions could Lucius give that could be misunderstood? And the timing; Siriusly Snapey Susan responded: Yeeees, this is something I'm sure many of us have wondered about! Carol: Probably Lucius himself is away from home a good deal of the time so it isn't *his* instructions that are "misunderstood." Maybe Dobby does something to annoy Narcissa, who says something like, "Get out of my sight, you stupid elf!" which Dobby takes as "permission" to leave (dutifully ironing his hands afterwards). (?) Carol, who finds Kneasy's (second) theory interesting but isn't buying it yet From steffy07 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 19:47:15 2004 From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:47:15 -0000 Subject: Switching Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94834 > Potioncat wrote: > > <> > Bonny writes: > "In a recent Interview on the BBC, Rowling has said that said that > someone important dies and someone switches houses..." > > I have not had a chance to look for the interview, but if it helps > anyone, it appears to have been on the BBC, if it exists. Steffy: I finally convinced my husband to read the books, and he just started POA. I was telling him about all the different theories about the books and whatnot, and all the discussions that happen on this site, and I told him about the possibility of JKR saying that someone might "switch houses" Before I could say anythign else, he said "So, someone is going to switch to Slytherin." I thought about it for a little while, and I think it makes the most sense. Why would a Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw switch? They are already decidely good. Why switch from "the good side to the good side." The only "house switch" that makes sense to me, is a Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw or (God forbid) Gryffindor switch to Slytherin or a Slytherin swith to Gryffindor, Huff or Raven. Steffy, who's wondering if that Slytherin who could see the thestrals in OOTP is important, and maybe if he isn't the one who might give us a good switcharoo From steffy07 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 19:30:12 2004 From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:30:12 -0000 Subject: Two Questions about POA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94835 I finished my re-reading of POA last night, and I noticed two things. I don't know if they have been discussed before, but as I am not very adept at using the search function, I cannot tell. But regardless, here they are: 1. I believe Fred and George say that a tunnel on the MM that they had used before that once led to Hogsmeade is now caved in. I immidiately thought of the Chamber of Secrets. Maybe somehow the tunnels were connected. I don't think the twins were in the Chamber, but they could have been connected some way...any opinions? 2. The twins and Percy are taking their O.W.L.S and N.E.W.T's respectively during POA, and at the end of the book (US edition, paperback page 430) we find out that they have their results! So, why do we have to wait all summer for Harry to find out the results of his OWLS during OOTP!! Just a FLINT?? Or did the rules change, I wonder? Ok, well. Just two small things I noticed. What does everybody think? Steffy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 20:20:06 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:20:06 -0000 Subject: Underage magic enforcement In-Reply-To: <20040401152302.63581.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me wrote: > Message: 25 > Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:48:02 -0000 > From: "JoAnna" > Subject: Re: Underage magic enforcement > > Carol: > << is detected by identifying the wand, then a child under eleven would > be using someone else's wand or no wand at all, and the MoM > could not identify the child who cast the spell. > > > > > Mo: > > Didn't Harry get an official warning when Dobby made > the cake fall on the lady's head? No wands were being > used then, because Uncle Vernon had HP's wand locked > away. Carol: Yes. Which is why I said "if" and attributed the theory to other posters. I've always had doubts about the wand theory but wanted to suggest that *if* it's true or partly true, children under eleven would not have bought their wands yet and wouldn't be traceable. Also there were about 100,000 wizards and witches at the Tri-Wizard Tournament and the MoM was trying to control detectable magic (from purple fires to children on toy brooms and failing miserably. Something similar seems to have happened at the MoM--a large number of people, some of age, some not, performing a variety of spells, including at least one successful and one unsuccessful Crucio, and no one was detected performing underage magic. So I think we're back to specific areas being monitored more closely than others and by different methods. Certainly Harry's house is most closely watched, and not necessarily because he lives with Muggles. I'm back to the theory I started out with, that the MoM detected the spell itself (Dobby's hover charm), not the wand, and assumed that Harry performed the magic because he was the only (known) wizard in the neighborhood. They also detected Harry's wandless "blowing up" of Aunt Marge (but for reasons of their own, didn't punish it). But then we have to explain why other magic, such as Arthur's "sorting out" the Tont-tongue toffee incident, wasn't detected. (True, it's not "underage magic," but neither was Dobby's. Maybe the Order has ways of concealing its spells from the MoM. But how about Sirius appearing as a dog in Little Whinging in PoA? The MoM was on the lookout for him, too. Are they just inept? Carol, who knows we've been through all this before but still can't find a single, consistent explanation that would make everything clear From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 20:17:53 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:17:53 -0000 Subject: Switching Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94837 Steffy wrote: > > Steffy, who's wondering if that Slytherin who could see the > thestrals in OOTP is important, and maybe if he isn't the one who > might give us a good switcharoo Potioncat: Did this little group ever reach a concensus on whether that was Nott or Zabini/unknown? (Is gender still unknown for Zabini?) Did I really say concensus in reference to this group? Whether there was a weedy/stringy boy or two tall skinny boys, I think he/they will be become important. And I'm wondering if Nott Senior had become half hearted and now only a DE out of fear. That could make young Nott conflicted in which path to follow. Another thought, if the Mom will be shaken by the political fallout, will Hogwarts be shaken up as well? Could there be some staff changes and house rearranging? Potioncat, much better at asking questions than in coming up with answers From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 20:24:13 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:24:13 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: <362E1E7C-83DC-11D8-AC3F-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: >> Well, there are two possible scenarios that could explain Dobby's > actions. The first, one that I put forward last year, is that Harry *is* a member of the family that Dobby serves. Just as Kreacher escapes to Bella by deliberately(?) misconstruing an instruction from Sirius, so Dobby does the same; seeking out another family member who holds views sympathetic to his own and giving them the low-down on what those horrible people back at the ranch are up to. > Carolyn: The theory that Dobby was the former Potter house-elf could also explain his actions. He could have been given to the Malfoys by the Office of House-Elf Relocation after the death of the Potters, against his will perhaps, but he had no choice. This surely means that the Malfoys have other house-elves..Dobby wouldn't have been their first. Maybe some unpleasant relative of Kreacher's lurks at the mansion, and there is rivalry/suspicion between him/her and Dobby, leading to Dobby's actions. There is also the peculiarity of the picture Dobby painted for Harry at Xmas in OOP. I've posted before now that this is very odd thing for a house-elf to have done. We have no other example of a non-human creating a work of art that I can think of. My theory was that the painting is some kind of message to Harry that will play later, or alternatively that it was a Potter family painting which Dobby passed on to Harry out of sentiment. > (lots of intermittent snipping of usual interesting theorising): > But suppose, just suppose, that Lucius *sent* Dobby with strict > instructions to stop Harry from attending Hogwarts that year .. Well, Harry is supposed to be Voldy's nemesis. A fairly risk-free option would be to make sure Harry survives to adulthood and the long anticipated showdown and meanwhile Malfoy quietly builds a power base - Fudge, the Ministry, the right people in charge of Hogwarts. Malfoy for Minister. Sneaky. Could even work. > > All this assumes that Malfoy is a thoroughly bad lot and totally > committed to the Dark side. Is he? Not many posters have had a close look at Malfoy recently, he seems to slip under the radar. Too slippery by half - I think he bears watching. > > Kneasy Carolyn: (sniff)well, I had a pop at him quite recently in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/94419 I think people are being massively mis-lead by all this mudblood/pureblood stuff. My theory is that the pureblood muggles and the pureblood wizards are in a conspiracy together to remain on top in both worlds. Democratic principles are a threat to both. When Tom Riddle was a teenager, the British social structure that had grown up over centuries was beginning to crumble, and although we have only JUST ejected our hereditary peers from the House of Lords, in practice, WW2 was the beginning of the end for the landed gentry. The WW has less truck with democracy, and lots of muggles might think that a Very Good Thing. Tom Riddle originally looked like a useful weapon to a number of interested parties, but they have all mistaken the degree to which they can control him. I think Lucius is part of a family that has played a key role in this conspiracy over the decades, and I agree that his relations with Voldie are extremely ambiguous as a result. Certainly the diary plot back-fired from his point of view, but I don't think the MoM fight will be fatal to him. I agree with Mandy in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/94826 who wrote that: 'The evidence against Lucius Malfoy is circumstantial and witnessed by people in chaos. An effective Lawyer could not only get Lucius off, but also make him look like a hero. Now wouldn't that be fun?' More problematic might be the demise of Fudge. We have heard from the recent chat that he is now toast. If Malfoy can play his cards right and remain influential at the ministry, there are many possibilities. The Ministry for Magical Games & Sport seems a haven for sleaze for instance. In my recent RadioTBAY interview with Kirley McCormack, I suggested that there might be international Quidditch-related gambling corruption that could be used to entrap more than a few ministry officials as part of this conspiracy. I also highlighted the fact that we still don't know who the muggle- studies teacher is (I suggested it could be Professor Mordicus Egg), and that Dumbledore has always shown a marked interest in what happens in the muggle world. IMO, he knows a lot about Tom Riddle's muggle ancestory, as well as the Salazar inheritance, and is calculating accordingly. Finally, ages ago, I posted that I thought that it would be Percy who uncovered evidence of the conspiracy whilst diligently preparing some documents for Fudge. Quite what Percy would do with this information is quite fascinating to consider. Carolyn From pt4ever at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 20:03:41 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:03:41 -0000 Subject: Switching Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94839 Potioncat wrote: <<>> I've looked, and I can't find *anything.* Granted, I haven't gone through every single JKR interview out there, but I have read quite a few, and so far I've found zilch. I'm beginning to wonder if this was a fan prediction that got somehow attributed to JKR. Has anyone else found anything? - JoAnna From editor at texas.net Thu Apr 1 19:43:09 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:43:09 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94840 Melanie- > My "Mela" reply: OMG I did not just figure out all my dates, about > to write a really mean reply to the administration and get all upset > just to realize what day it was on the calendar. Don't be embarrassed. Check out message #15691 from April 1, 2001. Then-Moderator John Walton caught more than a few of us with that (present company included--although I didn't go so far as to send panicked emails to the Mods or nasty emails to Yahoo). Alas, the poll I set up for people to vote on the best punishment for John is long gone--but I think we selected something suitably vile. I mean, he even gloated about it (#15743). ~Amandageist From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 20:46:25 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:46:25 -0000 Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94841 Pippin wrote: > As I pointed out earlier, JKR herself uses such a construction in one of the very first references to Snape, "At the start of term banquet, Harry had got the idea that Professor Snape disliked him. By then end of the first Potions lesson he knew he'd been wrong. Professor Snape didn't dislike Harry--he *hated* him." > > Naama responded: > What if the quote you bring would have been, "By the end of the first Potions lesson he knew he'd been wrong, Professor Snape didn't > dislike Harry."? It would be senseless for the author to put it that > way, for the reader to complete, in her head, "he hated him", right? > In the same way, it doesn't make sense to interpret an "I don't think so" followed by a period, as the first part of a construct, ending in "I know so." Carol: Needless to say, I agree with Naama that "I don't think so" means "no" in JKR's interview, but since I've already presented my arguments relating to that point, I want to take another tack here, to look at Pippin's quote from another perspective. Harry "knew he'd been wrong. Professor Snape didn't dislike Harry--he *hated* him." This quotation is a perfect example of JKR's use of a seemingly straightforward remark by the narrator to present Harry's perspective *as if* it were fact. Harry can't possibly *know* what anyone else thinks or feels. Certainly Snape *appears* to hate Harry, but how much is real dislike (which appears to Harry as hatred) and how much is dislike used as a cover for Snape's own purposes? He can't know and neither can we, but JKR wants us to *think* that Harry is right. (Remember that this quotation is from SS/PS and that Snape is being set up as a red herring villain.) I suggest that we should regard the words "Harry knew" with suspicion not only here but throughout hte series. IIRC, Harry "knew" that his parents died in a car accident, that Dementors can see, that Sirius Black wanted to kill him, that he was going to die when LV possessed him. None of these things that Harry "knew" turned out to be true. So his "knowledge" that Snape hates him fits into the same category. Carol, who apologizes for not having actual quotes at hand but will try to come back with them to support her theory From rredordead at aol.com Thu Apr 1 20:42:29 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:42:29 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94842 > Steffy > Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't good ole' Lucius already at > Azkaban? At the end of OOTP, Harry and Draco have a confrontation > and Harry says he's already gotten Lucius in prison, and Draco says > he wont' stay in there long, not without the Dementors guarding it? > I don't have my book, so I may be recalling things incorrectly. Mandy again: Yes, Malfoy is in Azkaban. But I don't think he has had a trial yet. Of course, I have no canon to support that but, it's was only a month between the MoM incident and Harry confrontation with Draco at the end of school. Exams are in June, school ends in mid July. Not enough time for a trial as sensational at that of Mr Lucius Malfoy's. I think all the escaped DE's who were caught would have been sent directly back to prison. But Lucius Malfoy would have to have a trial of some sort to prove his guilt. After all he's don't nothing wrong until the prosecution has proven his guilt. Unless, you are not innocent until proven guilty in the WW, which could also be possible. Lucius is a powerful, influential man and there is no way the Wizangamot could get away with sending to Azkaban without a trial. I believe what the Wizengamot is doing is to hold him in Azkaban until his trial date comes up. And a man of Malfoy's status would have many powerful Lawyers working to get him out on the wizard equivalent of bail, while they build his defense. From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 20:53:21 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:53:21 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" wrote: > Melanie- > > > My "Mela" reply: OMG I did not just figure out all my dates, about > > to write a really mean reply to the administration and get all > upset > > just to realize what day it was on the calendar. > > Don't be embarrassed. Check out message #15691 from April 1, 2001. > Then-Moderator John Walton caught more than a few of us with that > (present company included--although I didn't go so far as to send > panicked emails to the Mods or nasty emails to Yahoo). You know, considering this list has dubious distinction of having an inordinately high concentration of people who posess absolutely NO sense of humor, they're really asking for whatever they get in their emails. This is going to last for weeks. Mel, not fooling. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 21:01:37 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:01:37 -0000 Subject: Favoring Crabbe & Goyle? [was:Re: OT: Drill Sergeant] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94844 >Carol: > Did I answer all your questions, SSS? And can you and Neri answer mine > (regarding evidence of actually, as opposed to ignoring, Crabbe and > Goyle)? > > Carol, who would have presented these opinions in her original post > but wanted to hear from Neri first Neri: Carol, I agree that Snape ignores Crabbe and Goyle completely, but this is a BIG plus, considering the the kind of attention he pays to Harry and his friends. It really would be a tedious overkill for me to count here all the points taken, detentions, extra homework, terrorizing and cruel remarks that the Gryffindors get from Snape on a regular basis. If you're seriously claiming Snape doesn't practice favoritism, please find me a *single* case of him punishing, or even just frowning at Crabbe and Goyle (or at any other Slytherin for that matter). Thinking of this, I can see Harry refusing to take Slytherins into the DA in book 6, and Hermione convincing him otherwise by saying that he must not behave like Snape. Neri From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Apr 1 21:08:06 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:08:06 -0000 Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94845 Pippin previously: > > Dumbledore himself says something deliberately ambiguous in OOP: "Tonight was supposed to be the first meeting" -- where Fudge takes the meaning of "supposed" as "intended" but we know that Dumbledore really means the other sense: "presumed to be true without conclusive evidence." > > > > This is a deliberate attempt to mislead. But Dumbledore doesn't appear to regard it as lying--more like he's giving Fudge a choice about how to interpret his words, and letting Fudge jump to conclusions. > > Naama: > > I'm sorry, but in this case Dumbledore was flat out lying to Fudge. He falsely confesses to initating DA.< Nope. He admits only that he "organized this". He carefully adds that he has not yet recruited anyone and no one has yet agreed to join him. Harry's intention to form a Dark Arts defense group was reported to the Order by Mundungus, Dumbledore's agent. Sirius, Dumbledore's fellow conspirator, approved it. Dobby, Dumbledore's employee, just happened to show up with advice about a meeting place after Harry told Sirius he was hunting for one. I'd say Dumbledore did a whole lot of organizing. Do you really think they carried on once a week for six months, in a castle with suits of armor that watch what you're doing and a portrait that can turn itself invisible, without Dumbledore's tacit consent? They don't *all* have invisibility cloaks, you know. Pull the other one! Naama: > But I disagree with you precisely on whether her answer is cagey or not. *I* don't think it's cagey at all, *because* (sorry for repeating myself) "I don't think so" has such a clear meaning in common usage. So, in my understanding, if it turns out that Snape is vampire, her answer is a blatant con.< That's where we disagree. An online chat with an author about a mystery work-in-progress isn't common usage. It's more like the testimony of an expert witness with something to hide in a situation where she knows she can't be cross-examined. :::imagines putting JKR on the stand::: Cross Examiner: You've stated that you don't think there are any links between Snape and vampires. Is that correct? JKR: Yes. CE: Could you put that more definitely? JKR: I don't think so. Cross Examiner: Ms. Rowling, did you not state on April 13, 2000 that you knew all about Severus Snape? JKR-- Call me Jo, please CE: Very well, Jo. Did you not state that you knew all about Severus Snape? JKR -- Yes CE: And yet you can't state positively whether or not he has links to vampires? JKR--I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may incriminate me. Pippin apologizing to the real lawyers in the group tiny link to JKR's comment about plot construction and tricking the reader http://tinyurl.com/2sa7z tiny link to the April 13, 2000 AOL chat http://tinyurl.com/37lgz From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Apr 1 21:11:44 2004 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:11:44 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: New Posting Rules Message-ID: <103.422e9f17.2d9ddf90@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94846 In a message dated 4/1/2004 1:06:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, melclaros at yahoo.com writes: You know, considering this list has dubious distinction of having an inordinately high concentration of people who posess absolutely NO sense of humor, they're really asking for whatever they get in their emails. This is going to last for weeks. Mel, not fooling. Certainly had me going for a sec. I even went as far as to figure out my 'posting day'. lol. I didn't figure out 'Oh! It's April Fools Day!' until the very end. ^^; [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Apr 1 19:13:03 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:13:03 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94847 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Okay, HERE is where I think I'm losing it and need more detail, > Kneasy. Are you saying that Voldy KNOWS Snape **is** the one who > left forever, but that it doesn't matter because Snape's NOT really > spying on Voldy, NOT really back in his service? That Snape's > working only with Lucius...Lucius, who's really the ORDER'S SPY? Am > I getting this, or have I totally screwed it up?? > > I DO like the part of this which goes to what kind of character > Malfoy really is, and "power-hungry" and "opportunist" are two terms > which jump into my mind. I've wondered why Voldy didn't give him a > HARDER time in the graveyard...and yet there was that diary set-up > which I *thought* did show a certain level of Voldy loyalty. So how > would the diary have fit in, Kneasy? Just nastiness, to kill a > few "mudbloods", but not really an attempt to bring Riddle back? > > Let's hear more! > By now you should have read Jen's post 94797 which may have filled in a few of the gaps for you. Thank you, Jen! It's always a pleasure to come across a mind as suspicious as my own. I'm pretty sure that Lucius knows exactly what Snape's position is; it'd be difficult for him not to. Fellow DEs and Snape suddenly stops coming down to the Scout Hut where they learn to tie knots in Muggles, naturally he'd wonder what was wrong. Then the show trials after Voldy vanished where Snape is revealed as an anti-Voldy agent. Even though Malfoy was charged and found Not Guilty, it should have set his mind furiously to thinking - "How can I cover my back next time? How can I be certain of being on the winning side?" Easy. Be on both sides. He's vain enough to believe he can get away with it. He's never totally abandoned Voldy, he's never totally committed himself to the Order; he trims his sails to suit whatever wind is blowing. Make himself valuable to both sides - pass on information via Snape to the Order while still being chief roadie to the Voldy Victory Tour. "How else could I get the information?" he asks in a plaintive voice. I think he'd prefer Voldy to win; it would suit his personal convictions. Get all those mudbloods out of Hogwarts, clear the do-gooders out of the Ministry, isolate DD. But just in case.....better make myself useful to the other side. The diary performed it's planned function perfectly. It got DD out of the chair at Hogwarts. Malfoy wasn't concerned about a few casualties at Hogwarts, that sort of person didn't belong there anyway. But the plan unravelled - there were too many casualties and the genie (snake) wouldn't go back in the bottle, so parent power got DD re-instated, not only that, Potter got lucky - again. Pity. Maybe next time. That's what he'd be thinking while DD warned him there'd better not *be* a next time. DD knows exactly what happened and is, I think, prepared to use Malfoy, maybe even forgive, so long as it helps gets rid of a greater evil. After all Lucius is a babe in arms compared to the cunning DD. All this is assuming that just that particular sub-set of the options I listed is the most likely. It could be, with the way Malfoy has been presented; the Machiavelli of Malfoy Towers. In any event he's been too long in the shadows; we need to have a good hard look at Lucius. Kneasy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 21:08:22 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:08:22 -0000 Subject: Re-reading CoS : questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94848 Del wrote: > I flipped through CoS yesterday for a bit of light reading, and I > have a few questions. > (British Bloomsbury paperback First Edition if I'm not mistaken) > > 1. Okay, what's up with Snape and Malfoy !? Different looks, but > same behaviour : same speech pattern as far as I can see, same > coldness, same restraint, same cruel humour, same cold rage when > angered. I won't give any examples, but just read the descriptions > of Malfoy and then Snape, it's eerie and scary ! Add to that their > obvious complicity against all odds, and I have to ask : what's > going on ? > And in a world where Metamorphagi (?) exist, I have to ask : have we > ever seen Malfoy and Snape together ? Or have we ever seen one when > we know for sure where the other is ? Because otherwise, I have to > postulate that Snape and Malfoy could very well be one and the same > person... (Canon counter-proofs more than welcome, because I get a > headache just thinking of the implications of this possibility ! > Though it would finally explain why Snape seemed to be almost > smiling when Mrs Norris was found Petrified: he would be pleased > that his plan worked) Carol: One slight problem: Lucius is in Azkaban now and Snape is at Hogwarts. They can't be the same person. Besides, that would make Snape Draco's father and Draco clearly regards them as different people. And would rich, snooty Lucius lower himself to teach Potions and grade homework? Del wrote: > 2. What's up with Penelope Clearwater ? Why did she stay at Hogwarts > for Christmas if her love affair with Percy wasn't supposed to be > public, and why was she roaming the castle all alone? What was she > doing all alone around the library when everyone had gone down to > the Quidditch pitch ? Both occurences being especially suspicious in > the light of her being a Muggle-born, and thus especially at risk of > being attacked. > I can't find my PoA book, so I can't check up on her next year. I > can't remember her doing anything suspicious, but still I'm > wondering if Miss Clearwater is as clear as spring water... Carol: I don't know. I've raised several queries regarding Penny and how much she knows about her own petrification, but I haven't received a single response. I don't think she was a bad guy and her "excuse" for wandering the corridors would be that she's a prefect and it was her duty. Maybe, like Percy, she thought that Prefects would be immune from the attacks. But I still want to know what she know (if anything) about Diary!Tom, and how Percy could possibly think that LV isn't back in some form when both Penny and Ginny were Tom Riddle's victims. Maybe Tom Riddle *isn't* Voldemort, just as the shadow that comes out of LV's wand *isn't* Cedric, and destroying Diary!Tom (in Percy's view) has nothing to do with the return of the *real* Voldemort? In any case, LV himself doesn't seem to know about the basilisk incident, or at least he doesn't mention it in the graveyard scene. What's up? any ideas? Carol, snipping the rest of Del's post because she doesn't have any ideas on those points yet From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 21:16:02 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:16:02 -0000 Subject: No one was to blame... I think. In-Reply-To: <20040401033309.69367.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Justine wrote: > < who doesn't buy for a momen that Lupin was so distressed > about Peter that he forgot about his potion. Calm and collected > the whole time, he is.>> Justine : > Lurker, here! > > I don't have my books with me at my dorm, but as far as I remember, Lupin didn't actually *have* the potion. Isn't that why Snape stopped in Lupin's office and saw the Marauder's Map? To deliver the wolfsbane? I don't see why Snape would merely stop in to see if Lupin drank it, since Snape isn't very fond of Remus and also would have no reason to suspect that he had forgotten to drink it. So, couldn't it be that Remus saw Peter's name on the map, but couldn't wait around for Snape to show up because there was the chance that at that *very* moment, Harry and company were in mortal danger? Geoff: "'If you haven't been helping him, he (Harry) said, with a furious glanve at Black, 'how did you know he was here?' 'The map -' said Lupin. 'The Marauder's Map. I was in my office examining it -' 'You know how to work it?' Harry said suspiciously. 'Of course I know how to work it,' said Lupin, waving his hand impatiently. 'I helped write it..... ....'The important thing is, I was watching it carefully this evening because I had an idea that you, Ron and Hermione might try and sneak out of the castle....' .....'You might have been wearing your father's old Cloak, Harry -' 'How d'you know aboutthe Cloak?' 'The number of times I saw James disappearing under it... ' said Lupin, waving an impatient hand again. 'The point is, even if you're wearing an Invisibility Cloak, you show up on the Marauder's Map. I watched you cross the grounds and enter Hagrid's hut. Twenty minutes later, you left Hagrid and set off back towards the castle. But you were now accompanied by somebody else.' 'What?' said Harry. 'No, we weren't.' '*I couldn't believe my eyes*, said Lupin [my emphasis], still pacing and ignoring Harry's interruption, 'I thought the map must be malfunctioning. How could he be with you?' 'No one was with us!' said Harry. 'And then I saw another dot, moving fast towards you, labelled Sirius Black... I saw him collide with you. I watched as he pulled two of you into the Whomping Willow -' 'One of us!' said Ron angrily. 'No, Ron, two of you.'" (POA "Cat, Rat and Dog" p.254-55 UK edition) "Snape was slightly breathless but his face was full of suppressed triumph. 'You're wondering, perhaps, how I knew you were here?' he said, his eyes glittering. 'I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your Potion tonight so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I did... lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know....'" (POA "The Servant of Lord Voldemort" p.263 UK edition) Does look a bit as if Remus was so gobsmacked by what he saw that he took off without thinking everything through.... From saitaina at frontiernet.net Thu Apr 1 21:21:23 2004 From: saitaina at frontiernet.net (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:21:23 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re-reading CoS : questions References: Message-ID: <000f01c4182f$4904d700$01fea8c0@domain.invalid> No: HPFGUIDX 94851 Carol wrote: Well this is a rather confusing question as Tom Riddle IS Voldemort in the sense that at one point in time they were the same person (and rather still are as that's who Voldemort is under his assumed name) but the Tom that came out of the diary and held Ginny? No, they're two separate entities. Tom Riddle himself said it, he was nothing but a memory preserved in diary pages. An echo of what Voldemort was when he wrote it. Too small a piece of Voldemort's soul was trapped in the diary to be an actual connection and it was only with the aid of Ginny that he gained any sort of energy to become form and substance. The only true link to anyone Tom had, was to Ginny, not his other half. Though it does beg the question, if Tom could siphon energy from Ginny and create form and substance...could Voldemort have leached himself back out of the diary (or Tom leeched Voldemort) and thus become one again? (Well, if Ghostly Voldie could hold a pen). Saitaina **** Relying on the government to protect your privacy is like asking a peeping tom to install your window blinds.-- John Perry Barlow http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 21:33:56 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:33:56 -0000 Subject: Could Snape be part goblin? In-Reply-To: <20040331141401.76D3B2D2235@front.interia.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94852 Viridis wrote: The very question is if the humans can crosbreed with goblins. They can with Veelas and giants. I doubt they can with Trolls (anyway who'll be willing to try?) or Ceantaurs (in this case I think it would be centaurs who'll be unwilling). If humans could crosbreed with goblins than what about house -elves? Professor Flitwick, anyone? vmonte responds: It's funny you should mention house elves. What about Luna? She has large eyes that make her look like she is always surprised. She also has strange taste in jewelry (remember the radishes?). Sort of reminds me of Doby...Hmmm...What was that spell her mother was doing??? vmonte From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 21:42:47 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:42:47 -0000 Subject: Re-reading CoS : questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94853 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: Del: > 5. What happened to the basilisk fang Harry used to destroy the > Diary ? I couldn't find any mention of it. Geoff: Left it behind.... "Shaking all over, Harry pulled himself up. His head was spinning as though he'd just travelled miles by Floo powder. Slowly, he gathered together his wand and the Sorting Hat and, with a huge tug, retrieved the glittering sword from the roof of the Basilisk's mouth." (COS "The Heir of Slytherin" p.237 UK edition) I suspect he'd seen more than enough of it! From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 21:46:31 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:46:31 -0000 Subject: OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94854 Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: I will make one last feeble attempt to bring out a difference that I think is KEY. HRH & their class of Hogwarts students begin w/ Snape at age **11** and the war is **NOT** yet on. They are boarding school students, not military academy students or enlistees. No one has **told** them that their lives are in danger and they damn well better listen & learn this stuff because their *lives* depend on it. When a person goes into the military, he or she is 1) older and 2) *knows* his/her life depends upon listening & learning every detail. Doesn't anybody else out there think this is an important difference in the learning process? That one must *understand* the mission in order for the drill sergeant routine to be most effective? Somebody...anybody...? :-| vmonte responds: I agree with you 100%. Snape is not behaving the way he does because he wants to toughen up the students -- he is sadistic. DD on the other hand may have made Snape the Potions Master in order to toughen/teach the children that they need to learn how to deal with all kinds of people. DD also likes to give people a second chance. vmonte From steffy07 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 21:56:38 2004 From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:56:38 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94856 > Mandy again: > Yes, Malfoy is in Azkaban. But I don't think he has had a trial yet. > Of course, I have no canon to support that but, it's was only a month > between the MoM incident and Harry confrontation with Draco at the > end of school. Exams are in June, school ends in mid July. Not > enough time for a trial as sensational at that of Mr Lucius Malfoy's. > > I think all the escaped DE's who were caught would have been sent > directly back to prison. But Lucius Malfoy would have to have a trial > of some sort to prove his guilt. After all he's don't nothing wrong > until the prosecution has proven his guilt. Unless, you are not > innocent until proven guilty in the WW, which could also be > possible. Lucius is a powerful, influential man and there is no way > the Wizangamot could get away with sending to Azkaban without a trial. > > I believe what the Wizengamot is doing is to hold him in Azkaban > until his trial date comes up. And a man of Malfoy's status would > have many powerful Lawyers working to get him out on the wizard > equivalent of bail, while they build his defense. Steffy: Yes, but looking back into Gof, it doesn't seem like the WW follows the same procedures for justice as the real world. There was no trial for Sirius, and no lawyers for the other trials. People could give testimony, but it doesn't seem like the WW is too forgiving of people who are DE's, especially since Malfoy seems to have already confunded them once... From a_williams1 at pacific.edu Thu Apr 1 21:54:26 2004 From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:54:26 -0800 Subject: Re-reading COS : questions Message-ID: <000c01c41833$e6d47ae0$871d0f0a@bre.uop.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 94857 Del came up with some questions after going through COS: 1.And in a world where Metamorphagi (?) exist, I have to ask : have we ever seen Malfoy and Snape together ? Or have we ever seen one when we know for sure where the other is ? I think we have- during any Potions class. I'm sure they've mentioned Snape making some remark about a Gryffindor and Draco smirking or something at Snape's remark. Even if they hadn't... I don't know, I think that it would be hard for a teacher to teach a class and be a student in the class at the same time. 2. What's up with Penelope Clearwater ? Why did she stay at Hogwarts for Christmas if her love affair with Percy wasn't supposed to be public, and why was she roaming the castle all alone ? What was she doing all alone around the library when everyone had gone down to the Quidditch pitch ? Both occurences being especially suspicious in the light of her being a Muggle-born, and thus especially at risk of being attacked. I don't know why she stayed over the Christmas holidays, but perhaps she was on her way to the Quidditch match when she met Hermione. Also, unless it's in JKR's notes on the student body, I'm not sure why you assume Penelope is muggle born. If it's because she was petrified... well, Mrs. Norris was petrified, NHN was petrified... I don't think the basilisk knows who is of what kind of wizarding heritage, and when it met Hermione and Penelope wouldn't have thought to itself, "Well, this one's pureblood, so I'll let her go and just kill the other one." It was just that Penelope and Hermione were in the same place at the same time that caused her to be petrified. 4. Salazar Slytherin, or rather his statue : it is described as having an "ancient and monkey-like" face (p. 329). Unusual description, which put in my mind the image of a goblin. Could there be a connection between SS and the goblins ? Could SS be the ultimate fraud, pretending to want to clean Hogwarts of all non- purebloods when he in fact was half-goblin ? Well, are non purebloods just those who are muggle born or the child of a muggle and a witch/wizard? Perhaps someone who is a 'halfblood' would still be considered pureblood if they're a magical creature. I don't know about that, though. 6. Myrtle's death : Then Tom spoke, Myrtle came out of the cubicle, and died right away. That would mean the Basilisk was right there in the pipe, waiting to get out of it the moment Tom opened the entrance. It doesn't sound terribly realistic to me. I may just be dense, but I just assumed that it was the basilisk that came into the bathroom, not that Tom had. Hissing doesn't really sound particularly masculine or feminine to me; I think that if the snake were hissing, she might have assumed it was a boy- because who expects a huge deadly snake to sneak up on them in the bathroom? Aesha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 21:49:46 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:49:46 -0000 Subject: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94858 Pippin wrote: I also think, as I've said before, that IMO, this was a felix culpa, since Occlumency only opened Harry's mind further to Voldemort in a way which Dumbledore, IMO, did not expect. I think Voldemort was already finding it difficult to enter Harry's mind because of the strength of Harry's positive emotions, and by clearing his mind, emptying it of emotion, Harry became more vulnerable. Siriusly Snapey Susan responded: Or, alternatively, perhaps the presence of *negative* emotions & thoughts--anger, rage, hatred regarding Snape--made it "riper" ground for Voldy to enter. I offer this because I'm not sure Harry was really having that much luck emptying himself of emotion. Carol: I agree with SSS that Harry's rage, not his ability to empty his mind of emotion, was opening his mind to LV. That being the case, it was right for Snape to stop the Occlumency lessons, even if he did it for the wrong reason, and Dumbledore was right not to make him resume them. (I imagine that once Snape had calmed down after the Pensieve incident, he and DD went over Harry's behavior and visions together and decided that the lessons were doing more harm than good. Can't prove that, of course, but I'm sure that DD had a better reason than Snape's dislike of James for allowing Snape to discontinue the lessons. It makes sense to me that it was a joint decision based on the available evidence.) Carol From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 21:34:10 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:34:10 -0000 Subject: Underage magic enforcement In-Reply-To: <20040401152302.63581.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94859 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me wrote: > Mo: > > Didn't Harry get an official warning when Dobby made > the cake fall on the lady's head? No wands were being > used then, because Uncle Vernon had HP's wand locked > away. Geoff: Interesting thought just crossed my mind when I read this. OK, so (1) there was wandless magic involved and (2) Harry was the fall guy. However, hasn't it been suggested that house elves have magic of their own (possessing the ability to apparate where no man has apparated before for instance). Shouldn't therefore the Ministry be able to distinguish magic originating from an elf? From starropal at hotmail.com Thu Apr 1 22:30:15 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:30:15 -0600 Subject: FILKs-Standing; Under a Spell/Standing (Reprise) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94860 That Scar With Feeling by Star Opal; filked from Joss Whedon's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Once More With Feeling". Standing To the tune of _Standing_ THE SCENE: Order of the Phoenix; Chapter 37, The Prophecy Dumbledore tells everything. Dumbledore: You weren't ready For the world outside I kept pretending, That you could just hide I know I said that Id Save thousands before you -Tried But I... Your path's determined, And it's all uphill Didn't want to see it, Be killed or must kill And I know what it is you must fulfill But I... I wish I could say The right words And clear away your fate Wish I could play the seer And give you a clean slate Wish things could stay... But now its just too late Was standing in the way The cries around me, Didn't hear at all 'Cause I had you here And I dropped the ball Should have told when asked I because of love did stall But I ... I wish this could Lay at my feet And let you live at last Wish I could Pay out your debts But what must pass, must pass Wish things could stay - Your childhood, ending fast I was standing in the way Was just standing In the way ~~~~~ Under a Spell/Standing (Reprise) To the tune of _Under Your Spell/Standing (Reprise)_ THE SCENE: Harry realizes his hero is fallible, and Dumbledore confirms. Harry: I'm under a spell God, how can this be Playing with my destiny? All along you knew well Dumbledore, don't you see? Feel like nothing's left in me I just can't believe Dumbledore: Believe me, Wish it wasn't so Both: And it grieves me 'Cause I love you so But we both know Dumbledore: Harry: Wish I could Wish I could Say the right words Trust again like I did once And clear away your fate But I've just lost Sirius... Wish I could play the seer I can't adjust, full of disgust And give you a clean slate Its gone and I just wish... Wish... Both: Things could stay... Wish things could stay Wish things could stay Wish things could stay _________________________________________________________________ Persistent heartburn? Check out Digestive Health & Wellness for information and advice. http://gerd.msn.com/default.asp From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 22:01:07 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:01:07 -0000 Subject: Two Questions about POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "steffy07" wrote: Steffy: > 1. I believe Fred and George say that a tunnel on the MM that they > had used before that once led to Hogsmeade is now caved in. I > immidiately thought of the Chamber of Secrets. Maybe somehow the > tunnels were connected. I don't think the twins were in the > Chamber, but they could have been connected some way...any opinions? Geoff: I've answered this before myself but couldn't trace the message number tonight. The two are not linked. The cave-in in the Chamber of Secrets is below ground because Ron, Harry and Lockhart have gone down the pipe from the girls' bathroom at that point... "And then, just as he had begun to worry about what would happen when he hit the ground, the pipe levelled out and he shot out of the end with a wet thud, landing on the damp floor of a dark stone tunnel... ...'We must be miles under the school,' said Harry, his voice echoing in the black tunnel. 'Under the lake probably,' said Ron, squinting around at the dark, slimy walls.'" (COS "The Chamber of Secrets" p.223 UK edition) But this is nowhere near the tunnle referred to by Fred and George... "'....Don't bother with this one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. We used it until last winter but it's caved in - completely blocked'" (POA "The Marauder's Map" p.144 UK edition) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 22:39:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:39:34 -0000 Subject: Edition Differences (WAS: Re: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94862 I (Carol) wrote: < >> Carolyn responded: > PGR wrote: I have two copies of GoF, they are both UK editions. The first is the 12th typesetting and has the "Priori Incantatem" mistake. The second is the 21st typesetting and has the amended "Priori Incantatem". Both typesettings agree with Carolyn's first edition: Fawcett in Hufflepuff & Stebbins in Ravenclaw. Carol: Thanks, everyone. Then either the American edition is the only correct one (the chances of that are, alas, rather slim) or there are two Fawcett girls, one in Ravenclaw and one in Hufflepuff. Neither, apparently, is in Harry's year, or they would have been named in the Sorting Ceremony. (Should I burn my American editions?) Carol, who wishes she could see the original manuscript From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 22:21:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:21:52 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Crucio. W as: Bellatrix and the Crucio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94863 Eric signed off with: Eric, who thinks that with his anger issues, he could have Crucio'd Bellatrix to a crispy critter with no problem whatsoever. Mandy responded: No matter how angry Harry is right now, anger is not what is required to produce an effective Crucio. According to Bellatrix "You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain ? to enjoy it - righteous anger won't hurt me for long " OotP Pg 715 UK edition. According to Merriam Websters; righteous means: Reacting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin. 2 a : morally right or justifiable. b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality. So it doesn't matter how angry Harry is, and his anger is genuine and good or *righteous*. To produce an effective Cruciatus Curse, what's required it the desire to really hurt someone. To *need* (not want) to cause them pain. And to *enjoy* causing that pain. That is sadism in it's purest form. That is what is required for the Cruciatus Curse. That is what makes it Unforgivable. Harry is not there, thank goodness. Let's hope he never reaches that dark place, or we've lost out hero for good. Carol responds: I agree with most of Mandy's post, although I think the part about "*need* (not want) to cause them pain" is a slight misreading. Bellatrix actually says, "you need to really *want* to cause pain." So, yes, it's "want," not "need." But the ky point, I think is her next words: wanting to cause pain means enjoying inflicting pain on others, whether or not you're angry with them. (Think about Bellatrix and the Longbottoms, whom she tortured to insanity out of sadistic pleasuere, and contrast that with Harry's fury at Bellatrix for killing Sirius.) Other than that, I agree that a Crucio can only be properly performed by a sadist like Bellatrix and that Harry's anger is "righteous" in the sense of 2b, an "outraged sense of justice or morality" because of what Bellatrix has (apparently) done to Sirius. I also wholeheartedly agree that it would be terrible for Harry to reach the "dark place" where he enjoys causing pain and is no better morally than his enemies. If he performs any Unforgiveable Curse successfully, he will (IMO) be irredeemably evil, like Bellatrix--or young Tom Riddle after he AK'd his parents. Such actions *cannot be forgiven*. That's what Unforgiveable means. Carol From enigma_only at hotmail.com Thu Apr 1 14:53:18 2004 From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:53:18 -0000 Subject: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > wrote: > > Oh, good heavens! Not another discrepancy! Mine is the First > > Scholastic Trade Paperback, copyright 2000 but printed in 2002. it > > contains the correction in the order of the "echoes" coming out of > > Voldemort's wand in the "Priori Incantatem" chapter, which to me > > suggests that it may contain other corrections as well. (My apologies > > for forgetting to put "Am. ed." but maybe it's a felicitous blunder in > > this case.) What's the year on yours? (Anybody with a corrected UK > > edition ca. 2002?) > > > > BTW, I think the error is in the Canadian edition because Miss Fawcett > > has already been identified as being in Ravenclaw in the age line > > scene and JKR (or an editor) wanted to make it consistent. (A change > > like that would not have been made by an editor without JKR's consent.) > Carolyn: > My hardback copy of GOF, a UK first edition printed in 2000, says '10 > points from Hufflepuff, Fawcett!" on p.371. (In contrast to the Miss > Fawcett who is clearly identified as a Ravenclaw in the age-line > scene on p.229). Definitely two Fawcett girls, maybe three taking > into account the Miss Fawcett mentioned in the duelling scene in CS. Bonny: My edition is a 2000 Canadian, and is uncorrected in the end. I am unable to find a corrected edition at the moment to check on the page 371 thing. From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Thu Apr 1 22:42:31 2004 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:42:31 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Posting Rules (yay, March is *over*!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94865 Well, it's not my day to post (1+0+3+1+1+9+6+8 = 29 = 2+9 = 11 = 1+1 + 2 which would give me Tuesday), so I'll be expecting an owl with a red envelope in its beak any moment now... Darrell: > > Simplify two-digit numbers thus: 2+9 = 7 > silly me I spent all those years thinking it was 11 Lol, nice catch! ;-D The Geistly One wrote: > Check out message #15691 from April 1, 2001. > Then-Moderator John Walton caught more than a few of us with that > (present company included--although I didn't go so far as to send > panicked emails to the Mods or nasty emails to Yahoo). >>> Ha! He got me completely with that one, and I *did* write to the mods. (I'm the third message in 15743). ;-P In 15704 I had my "duh" moment; check out this comment from Susan in 15705: "a media campaign....can you imagine what 1100 irate HP grownups could do?" 1100. No, a zero wasn't left off; we really only had 1100 people as of this day three years ago. ~Wow~. Weren't we just so wee and cute back then? :-D > Alas, the poll I set up for people to vote on the best punishment for John is long gone--but I think we selected something suitably vile. I mean, he even gloated about it (#15743). >>> No, the poll's still around (I delete *nothing* if I can avoid it ) -- it's on OTC: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/surveys?id=623002 "What should we do to John?" Choices Votes % 325 replies Club him with a modem -- 18 5.54% Put him in leather pants, pour water on him, and watch them shrink as they dry -- 46 14.15% Tie him to a fire-ant hill and pour honey on him -- 24 7.38% Put him in a vat of Malmsey -- 16 4.92% Make him eat five British pizzas -- 30 9.23% Demand an elaborately calligraphed, individual apology, with chocolate included, for each of us -- 37 11.38% Make him take care of Amanda's kids, unaided, for a month -- 22 6.77% Sneak into his house and program Draco to have Moaning Myrtle's personality -- 27 8.31% Force him to eat all our spare earwax, booger,horseradish, and sardine flavored Any-Flavour Beans -- 34 10.46% Make him send an adoring, sincere fan letter to Jo Rowling asking, "How did you get the idea for Harry Potter?" -- 28 8.62% Legally change his name to Mundungus Fletcher -- 43 13.23% (Some notes: "Draco" was the name of John's computer. The "leather pants" was a nod to the fic thing of "Draco in leather"; started in "Draco Dormiens", iirc. We'd recently had a discussion about Malmsey/vegemite/etc., either on OTC, or maybe still on main back then, so that's where that came from. Ditto British pizzas.) I wasn't caught by John with a Rock #47 on April 1, 2002, though; I knew he was up to *something* (he'd phoned me for the password to get into the management id as he'd left that info behind in NYC, so I knew he had something up his sleeve). However, lots of list members were gobsmacked to see the homepages of the main list and OTC graffitied in big red letters that HP was "Teh EVIL" and our very mortal souls were in grave danger. Too good. I don't suppose anyone got screen grabs of those? (Heidi?) I'd so love to stick them in the files...posterity and all that... Happy 1st, everyone! --Kelley From saitaina at frontiernet.net Thu Apr 1 22:47:55 2004 From: saitaina at frontiernet.net (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:47:55 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: New Posting Rules (yay, March is *over*!!) References: Message-ID: <002801c4183b$5fe385a0$01fea8c0@domain.invalid> No: HPFGUIDX 94866 Kelley wrote: Oh goddess don't remind me of that one! I thought my inbox was going to explode from the fall out of that one. I have only fallen for ONE HPfGU April fools prank and since then have waited anxiously to see what was next. It's always fun to see if anyone is ensnared each year. And since that was rather of topic, here's an on topic bit...what would Dumbledore pull for April's 1st? The guy's got a sense of humor so what would he pull if he thought he could get away with it? What about McGonagall? After all, she's got a wicked sense of humor when the mood strikes her. Saitaina **** Relying on the government to protect your privacy is like asking a peeping tom to install your window blinds.-- John Perry Barlow http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From BrwNeil at aol.com Thu Apr 1 22:10:40 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 17:10:40 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's he up to? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94867 In a message dated 4/1/2004 5:03:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, steffy07 at aol.com writes: > I believe what the Wizengamot is doing is to hold him in Azkaban > until his trial date comes up. And a man of Malfoy's status would > have many powerful Lawyers working to get him out on the wizard > equivalent of bail, while they build his defense. .Steffy: >Yes, but looking back into Gof, it doesn't seem like the WW follows >the same procedures for justice as the real world. There was no >trial for Sirius, and no lawyers for the other trials. People could >give testimony, but it doesn't seem like the WW is too forgiving of >people who are DE's, especially since Malfoy seems to have already >confunded them once... Also remember Hagrid in CoS. He was sent off to Azkaban just because Fudge decided to send him. If Dumbledore couldn't help him, I doubt anyone will rush to Malfoy's aid. That would be the same as showing support for Voldemort. Neil Read and discuss Hogwarts Exposed and its sequel at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HogwartsExposed/ Stories also available at http://portkey.org/ author Neil, http://www.schnoogle.com/ author Neil, http://www.fanfiction.net/~neil1 author Neil1 and http://www.adultfanfiction.net/ author Neil. Chapter eighteen of Hogwarts Too Exposed - A Slytherin Among Us has been posted. Look for chapter nineteen April 5, 2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From enigma_only at hotmail.com Thu Apr 1 19:09:17 2004 From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:09:17 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: <362E1E7C-83DC-11D8-AC3F-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94868 Kneasy wrote: snip there is something in CoS that bears thinking about - and it > isn't small (except physically) and that concerns Dobby. snip > What I want to concentrate on is not what they are or how they are > treated but what Dobby actually *does*. There could be a very big clue > lurking in there somewhere. > > Dobby himself tells Harry that House Elves are bound "...to serve one > house, one family." They're not interested in strangers, only in > serving the Family they are attached to. Yet Dobby adds that he has > "...come to protect Harry Potter, to warn him..." And once again Harry > misses the chance to ask some pointed questions. > > So why is Dobby so very concerned about an apparent stranger? Note that > he is not at all concerned about any of Harry's friends or colleagues > and certainly not with Ginny, who is the front line victim for Malfoy's > little ploy with the diary. The rebirth of Tom Riddle is of supreme > indifference to him, it is only the involvement of, and the possible > dangers to Harry that matters. > > So what's going on? > > Well, there are two possible scenarios that could explain Dobby's > actions. The first, one that I put forward last year, is that Harry > *is* a member of the family that Dobby serves. Just as Kreacher > escapes to Bella by deliberately(?) misconstruing an instruction from > Sirius, so Dobby does the same; seeking out another family member who > holds views sympathetic to his own and giving them the low-down on what > those horrible people back at the ranch are up to. Bonny writes: I find that an interesting theory, and not improbable. There are a few things that point in that direction. For starters, in CoS, when Harry asks Dobby if there is anything he can do to help him out, Dobby never answers. Harry says "..Can't anyone help you? Can't I?'" and Dobby responds "Harry Potter asks if he can help Dobby... Dobby has heard of your greatness sir, but of your goodness, Dobby never knew." CoS, pg 17 Dobby deliberatley skirts the issue. He doesn't say that Harry can't free him because he is not a member of the family, as he would likely have said if it were so. A house-elf is probably bound by their magic to be unable to ask their family to be freed, so this would make sense. Later on, when he speaks to Harry in the hospital wing, Dobby says that he can only be freed if his masters (PLURAL!) provide him with clothes. Dobby would be able to come and warn Harry about the things that were going to happen at Hogwarts if he had not been given a direct order not to. In OotP Kreacher can tell Narcissa things, just not things the he had been forbiddin from repeating. There are certain things that Dobby won't tell Harry, because he HAS been forbiddin, but he comes very close, which would explain why he had to beat himslef. Another reason that he might have to beat himself is because he is doing things against the will of Harry, *one of the family* (speculation, of course). After he sealed the barrier at platform 9 3/4, Dobby said he had to iron his hands - but if he were acting on Malfoys orders he would not have had to do that. He did, however, know that he was acting against Harry's will... Another thing that could indicate that Harry is by blood a member of the family Dobby served is that in the later books, when Dumbledore is his master, Dobby acts more as though Harry is his master. He steals from Snape, repeats Moody and McGonagalls conversation, and comes freely to Harry in order to help him. Also, in OotP, when Dobby defys a direct order by going to warn Harry that Umbridge has found him out, Harry gives Dobby a direct order to get back to the kitchen and to lie if asked if he warned them, and Dobby obeys without question. Of course, none of this necessarily means that Harry is of that family, but neither does it say that he isn't. Kneasy: > > The fact that the Potter name, though pureblood, does not appear on the > Black tapestry gives this theory a small boost. Bonny: I agree, considering that all the decent members of the family are blown off of the tapestry - they wouldn't appear then, would they? Kneasy: JKR has been > suspiciously reticent about the antecedents of James Potter, although > in her most recent web-cast she did allow that James's parents were not > of great importance. The actual name doesn't seem to fit into the > mainstream of pureblood families either; it seems mundane among the > Diggles and Dumbledores, but not so much so among the Blacks and > Averys. A change of name to demonstrate a renunciation of family values > is just possible but not likely. > > Then there is the whole brou-ha-ha of Dobby's manumission. This has > been argued loud and long. Malfoy obviously did not intend for Dobby to > be freed; can ties be broken when there is no intention? Bonny: It seems to me most likely that there has to be deliberate intention, otherwise elves would be being freed left right and centre. When Hermione leaves all those hats around in OotP, Dobby says that the elves find it insulting, and that is why they stop - not because they are afraid of being freed. Snipped the rest Bonny From lmthib at earthlink.net Thu Apr 1 18:16:16 2004 From: lmthib at earthlink.net (Lynette) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:16:16 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: LV's boggart Message-ID: <15526588.1080843380556.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 94870 Mo: Why fight a boggart when you can just AK it? However, I too am curious what form would LV's boggart take. LV doesn't really fear anything except love. How can love take a form? Lynette: Would it appear as his dead Mother? But, he doesn't fear love - just don't understand it and could be hurt by it. He fears death and DD. Best wishes, Lynette Landover, MD Zone 7 From cerebella316 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 21:44:37 2004 From: cerebella316 at yahoo.com (cerebella316) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:44:37 -0000 Subject: (Ship) Harry and Parvati... In-Reply-To: <7a.53526bda.2d962c9a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94871 Ladycat (Tiffany) wrote: Hello everyone. I realized that we have already discussed to some extent about who Harry's new "crush" interest is going to be. I never really said anything because I was rereading the books. I just finished chapter 31 (O.W.L.S.) in OOTP, when he was having a hard time consentrating. When I read who he sitting behind, I went back to GoF the Yule Ball chapter and there came up with the same name, Parvati Patil. I really didn't think they could bring in someone completely new for that part, but I figured JKR would want to bring in less major characters. Parvati has played enough of a character that she would be suitable.Yes I realize that she didn't have the best time with Harry at the Ball, but that can always change. Another reason why I think she's going to be Harry's new interest is from the one thing that I read that stuck in my mind. 'He was sitting right behind Parvati Patil, whose long dark hair fell below the back of her chair. Once or twice he found himself staring at the tiny golden lights that glistened in its when she moved her head very slightly and had to give his own head a little shake to clear it.' (From OOTP Ch. 31 pg. 725 US version) Now Bella responds: Why not? We've tried Harry with just about everyone else!!! And Pavarti is pretty. She and her twin Padme are "the best-looking girls in the year" according to Dean. (Ch. 23 "The Yule Ball", GOF, p411 US Hardback) And, really, she's often supportive of Harry. She joins the DA when many think Harry's crazy. She's worried about him when Trewlany predicts his death in PoA. Whenever there is an argument between the Harry/the Trio and a teacher, Pavarti, along with Neville and Dean, are always the Gryffindor's that pipe in to support Harry's/the Trio's side (with Snape, with Umbridge<--Ch.13, "Detention with Dolores") And I think she was hoping the whole time that Harry would ask her to the Yule Ball--she nudges Lavender and they both turn to look at Harry when they first hear of the ball. (Ch 22, "The Unexpected Task) And she seems pretty excited and giggly when Harry does ask her to the Ball and is mad when he doesn't pay attention to here during the Ball. But, Pavarti is such a stereotypical girl. So worried about appearance (doesn't she curl her eyelashes with her wand?), gets all gushy over the pretty unicorns, etc. I always pictured Ron going for that kind of girl before Harry. (I mean, Cho is the typical, emotionally unstable teenage girl, but she's sporty, too...And I do believe that JK has chosen for Ron to show interest in Hermione.) So Harry and Pavarti are a stretch, but why not? They're as likely a couple as Harry and Luna! ~Bella, who, at this point, agrees with whomever it was that said, in the end, Ron will end up with Luna, Neville with Ginny, and Harry and Hermione on their own From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Apr 1 23:27:25 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 23:27:25 -0000 Subject: No one was to blame... I think. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94872 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Does look a bit as if Remus was so gobsmacked by what he saw that he took off without thinking everything through....<< So gobsmacked he takes off, forgetting about his potion, forgetting about the full moon, forgetting to de-activate the map, and yet when he gets to the Shack he's "remarkably calm"? One way or another, he's a terrific actor. Pippin noticing just now that Lupin stares at Black "so intently it seemed he was trying to read his mind." --ah, hah! Legilimency! From jmmears at comcast.net Thu Apr 1 22:51:16 2004 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:51:16 -0000 Subject: Switching Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94873 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "JoAnna" wrote: > Potioncat wrote: > << went out for a confirming quote. Has anyone found it? Has anyone > looked?>>> JoAnna replied: > I've looked, and I can't find *anything.* Granted, I haven't gone > through every single JKR interview out there, but I have read quite > a few, and so far I've found zilch. I'm beginning to wonder if this > was a fan prediction that got somehow attributed to JKR. > > Has anyone else found anything? > I've been in the fandom for nearly 3 years and I believe I *have* read every single JKR interview (at least all of the on-line ones) and I don't think I've ever seen her say anything about anyone switching houses. Personally, I think it's codswollop :-D. There are several "fandom myths" floating about online, where people repeat rumors concerning JKR statements they've heard *somewhere*. They always swear that she really said something or other but when someone else actually makes the effort to research the statement, it never turns up. The discussion then dies out only to resurface months later (sometimes on other lists), and the whole cycle repeats itself. The result is that large numbers of people are certain she said whatever it was because they actually did read it somewhere; just not in an interview where she's actually quoted. My personal approach is to never, ever believe anyone's claims concerning anything JKR is reputed to have said unless they provide a link, or at the very least, the name of the publication and the date it was published. Even then, I don't believe it unless I go read it myself ;-). The same goes for the books themselves, since movie and fanfic contamination are rampant and it's easy to confuse plot points and characterizations if you haven't actually read the book for a while. Jo Serenadust, ever the skeptic From ekrbdg at msn.com Thu Apr 1 19:42:16 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:42:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] feelings...nothing more than feelings... (was: Re: Harry's disposition ) References: Message-ID: <002401c41821$718a6860$7f83f343@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 94874 Joe in SoFla: >In a sense, his impetuousness blinded him and because he didn't stop >to remember the 2-way mirror, it might be said he contributed to >Sirius' death. *Kimberly's comment* I've repeatedly anguished over why Harry didn't use that mirror to contact Sirius. I've been disappointed over Sirius' death because I knew that if Harry would have stopped to think, then Sirius may still be alive. However, in re-reading OoTP this week, I came across the passage where Sirius gives Harry the "badly wrapped package". (the text) "What is it?" Harry asked. "A way of letting me know if Snape's giving you a hard time..... (omitted text)....-but I want you to use it if you ever need me, all right ?" "Okay," said Harry, stowing the package away in the inside pocket of his jacket, but her knew he would never use whatever it was. It would not be he, Harry, who lured Sirius from his place of safety, no matter, etc..." (end of the text) I think that for me, that clears up the question of "why didn't Harry stop and use the mirror ?". He was determined from first receiving the package that he wasn't going to use it. I still think he could have used the mirror but at least that gives me an insight as to why he didn't. It was reckless and impetuous, yes, but maybe this can shed some wandlight behind him jumping off and running to the MoM the way he did. Kimberly From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 21:39:40 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:39:40 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94875 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > Kneasy > > So Malfoy plays both ends against the middle, cooperating with both > > sides to a certain extent until he can pick the winner. > > > Mandy here: > Both Fudge and DD are in impossible positions at the end of book 5. > Both have their hands firmly tied and I really don't see how either > can effectively explain what happened in the Dept. on Mysteries. > Witnesses put LV firmly back in the WW. A group of escaped DE's broke > into the Ministry to steal a prophecy orb, and would have been > successful if DD and his Order had not shown up to save the day. > Sounds good, but how is DD going to explain the presence of 6 > children, from his supposedly secure school at the Dept of > Mysteries, dueling to the death!? Well, remember, DD wasn't headmaster anymore at the time, he was on the run from Fudge. Umbridge would be the one nominally responsible for the children. Still, your point about a good lawyer getting Malfoy off the hook is well taken. But do they even have lawyers in the WW? Harry certainly could have used one at times. -cheryl From ekrbdg at msn.com Thu Apr 1 22:10:00 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 17:10:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: New Posting Rules References: <103.422e9f17.2d9ddf90@aol.com> Message-ID: <000201c41836$40dad3c0$7f83f343@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 94876 >This is going to last for weeks. > Mel, not fooling. > Certainly had me going for a sec. I even went as far as to figure out my > 'posting day'. lol. I didn't figure out 'Oh! It's April Fools Day!' until > the very end. ^^; They certainly had me going! I got this message this morning and stewed my cauldron over it most of the morning! Then I came back, read some more messages and realized I had been "fooled"! Kimberly From pt4ever at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 20:07:19 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:07:19 -0000 Subject: Re-reading CoS : questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94877 I (JoAnna) wrote: <<>> Joe in SoFla wrote: <<>> Notice I said that the *guards* at Azkaban would notice, not that the Dementors would notice. I'm sure there are wizard guards at Azkaban now that the Dementors are gone, and I'm sure those wizard guards would notice if Lucius wasn't where he was supposed to be. - JoAnna From lhuntley at fandm.edu Fri Apr 2 00:05:00 2004 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:05:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: New Posting Rules In-Reply-To: <103.422e9f17.2d9ddf90@aol.com> Message-ID: <62517D7C-8439-11D8-94CF-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 94878 Mel said: > You know, considering this list has dubious distinction of having an > inordinately high concentration of people who posess absolutely NO > sense of humor, they're really asking for whatever they get in their > emails. > This is going to last for weeks. "IAmLordCassandra" said: > Certainly had me going for a sec. I even went as far as to figure out > my > 'posting day'. lol. I didn't figure out 'Oh! It's April Fools Day!' > until the > very end. ^^; I got about as far as the second sentence and thought, "Is this a JOKE?! . . . . . . . . . Ohhh." So it didn't really fool me, but that's only because I *hate* April Fool's Day with every Fiber of My Being. Between the hours of 12:00 AM and 12:00 PM on April 1st it is my working assumption that everyone and every*thing* in the world is Out to Get Me. Therefore, I am zealously suspicious of everything that crosses my path and spend most of the day either a) holed up in my room or b) tremendously jumpy. It's stupid and neurotic, yes, but I just can't help it. I fear practical jokes the way I fear bees -- having never really been "stung" by either, I have an irrational aversion to both. *shakes head at self* That said, I love it when the fandom gets in a celebratory mood, and I really appreciate the lengths that the major sites (HPfGU, TLC, FA, etc.) go to to make April Fool's Day actually *fun*. I can understand where Mel's coming from, but there have been much, much worse ADMINs on the April 1st's of the past and . . . well, we survived (a few chuckles richer, to boot). Laura (who thinks that the ADMIN team *ought* to have a sense of humor and who would turn into Mad Eye Moody if forced to endure Gred and Forge for too long.) From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Apr 2 00:27:38 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:27:38 -0000 Subject: Lupin staring (was No one was to blame... I think) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94879 Pippin said: > noticing just now that Lupin stares at Black "so intently it seemed > he was trying to read his mind." --ah, hah! Legilimency! Marianne: He stares at Sirius for a long time in the kitchen scene in OoP, too, as Sirius is about to give Harry some information on what the Order is up to. It doesn't seem as if they two are staring eye-to-eye, but Lupin is certainly very focused on Sirius for a few pages. Marianne From rredordead at aol.com Fri Apr 2 00:40:01 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:40:01 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94880 > -cheryl wrote: > Well, remember, DD wasn't headmaster anymore at the time, he was on > the run from Fudge. Umbridge would be the one nominally responsible > for the children. Still, your point about a good lawyer getting > Malfoy off the hook is well taken. But do they even have lawyers in the WW? Harry certainly could have used one at times. Mandy here: Possibly not Laywers, but Harry did have DD speak for him at his hearing in OotP. Perhaps this was because he was underage. As I've written in another post, (it's a response to Steffi, I don't have a number as I just posted it) someone a powerful as Malfoy will never just be flung into Azkaban. The Malfoys, along with all the purebloods, believe themselves to be above the law. Lucius will have some kind of recorse, some why of saying wait just a minute! I'm innocent and this is what really happened. (I also explaned in my other post why this didn't happen for Sirius.) Cheers, Mandy From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 2 00:55:39 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:55:39 -0000 Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94881 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says None of those boys is as bitchy as our girl. Harry and Ron, in fact, are shy little violets compared to Miss G., Harry as neglected orphan and Ron as kid brother. Draco's got a mouth on him, but independent? Bitches? Ha. Puppies is what they are. And as my mother once said to me when I complained about favoritism toward my brother: "You know men can't take care of themselves the way women can..." --JDR ("hell hath no fury like a woman bored") From LadySawall at aol.com Thu Apr 1 22:40:46 2004 From: LadySawall at aol.com (Jo Ann) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:40:46 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: <362E1E7C-83DC-11D8-AC3F-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: > So Malfoy plays both ends against the middle, cooperating with both > sides to a certain extent until he can pick the winner. How would > that grab him? I think he'd like it - he'd think he was being > clever. > Until the fight in the Ministry. Still, not too bad - the > Dementors have gone and Voldy will no doubt get him sprung fairly > soon. > > What can we expect? Contrition, a mending of his ways or an even > more fanatical adherence to the DE cause? Place your bets. Not many > posters have had a close look at Malfoy recently, he seems to slip > under the radar. Too slippery by half - I think he bears watching. Plenty of other people are doing a fantastic job of speculating about all this, so I won't, but it does dovetail neatly into something else I've been wondering about. Had anybody noticed that Draco Malfoy, in the course of being his usual obnoxious self, has done Harry a number of favors without Harry realizing it? 1. The first thing Draco does in the books is to try to make friends with Harry (or an alliance, at any rate.) He botches the job, and manages as a side effect(?) to firmly cement Harry's sympathies to Ron and Hermione and halfbloods/muggle-borns in general, and to convince him he doesn't want to be in Slytherin. 2. He's indirectly responsible for Harry discovering his own talent for flying. One could argue that Draco couldn't know about that--but then again everybody (except Harry) knew about James Potter's Quidditch skills... 3. Stretching a bit with this one, but if Draco hadn't got Harry in trouble, he would never have learned about the Unicorn killings or the properties of Unicorn's blood. 4. In PoA, he tips them off that the Death Eaters are out hunting muggles and muggle-borns. He specifically warns Hermione to get under cover if she doesn't want to become a target. Why on earth would he do that--surely he would have had a lot more fun watching the Death Eaters play with her? 5. He's the first one to clue Harry in that Sirius was spotted at the train station. There may be others, but I only have two of the books with me at the moment and I'm still re-reading OoP. Individually any one of those incidents could have been an accident or a coincidence, but put them all together with Kneasy's ideas and it really makes me wonder! J. Spencer From cerebella316 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 00:54:22 2004 From: cerebella316 at yahoo.com (cerebella316) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:54:22 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: <001b01c413bc$2a289aa0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94883 Bella again! I know that this post is pretty much between Alla and Silverthorne, but I can't help myself. Silverthorne: Some people defend Snape, some Sirius, some Harry, some defend all or none at all. I take Snape's side because until recently he was the most 'maligned' when it comes to who is right, wrong, or indifferent. I never said you could NOT have your opinions--I only stated that I wished people would give the same regards and respectful examination to all the characters--use the same measuring stick and see beyond the surface of things (something which is further colored by Harry- as-the-narrator). Bella: But we have!! I have been reading messages on this site for?oh my?2 years now? (Long before OoP) And we have put every character under the microscope. There has been talk of ESE!Lupin, ESE!Ollivander, ESE!Ron, ESE!Molly, ESE!Dumbledore, ESE!Hermione, and the list goes on and I don't mean necessarily that we've thought they all could be evil at some point, but we have studied everything from possible ulterior motives to just their basic flaws in their personalities. And everyone has their own stances when it comes to each of the characters. (There are many who involved in this site who are critical of Sirius, and there are other who take note of his flaws and accept them ) So don't think we haven't used "the same measuring stick" for the characters. Silverthorne: They are what they are--what JKR wants them to be...and although some are less 'savory' then others at first glance, they are all still on the same side, and they all have equally valid and invalid reasons for their behaivior. Remember, one of the big themes is *choices*--why, how, and how it affects all the characters. The other theme that comes up often is "All is not necassarily as it seems". I apply *both* factors to all the characters as I read--and my opinions of them change accordingly as I do so. Bella: And Snape has been given a second chance! Dumbledore spoke for him when he could have been sent to jail as a DE, and after 14 years Snape still *chooses* to be bitter and angry. (I would say this is all part of his act, but his is bitter and angry with Sirius and I'm not sure what to call it with Remus.) Silverthorne: Just as 'child abuse' seems to set you (Alla) off when you read the books, people who are hypocritical in their treament of others sets me off. Snape may be cruel, but he's consistant. Bella: Yeah, consistent in treating Harry and Neville crappy. Silverthorne: Sirius, on the other hand, chooses his targets, not necassarily on sound fact as to thier alignment, but rather in reaction to his own personal likes and dislikes (which are not always dead on). Bella: Huh? Who were Sirius' targets? Besides Snape and Kreature? Who I think are understandable...not right by any means, but understandable... Silverthorne: Once that became appearent, I lost respect for him. As a representative of the 'postive' in people, he skewed that all to hell in my view as soon as he went after another kid for the simple reason that he was bored Bella interrupts: But it has been said in the books that there was more to it than that. There was a history between Sirius and James and Snape that hasn't been completely drawn out for us yet. And for goodness sake, they were teenagers. That doesn't make what happened right, but teenagers are still still *discovering* themselves, trying to understand that good and bad isn't black and white. Moral development involves making mistakes and learning from them. Many posters have argued that they would never want to be judged on something they did in high school, because at that point you still have a lot to learn about life. Snape and Sirius just haven't gotten past that... Silverthorne: and it made it worse when he allowed himself to maintain that stance far into his adult life. He could have chosen any number of other ways to deal with Snape in school--they all could have, but they didn't. He could have let it go later in life, but he didn't. Bella: You are forgetting that Sirius spent 13 years in prison. I'm sure the detachment from the real world alone had some major impact on Sirius's psychological, moral, and behavioral development. Not to mention the guilt over the Potters death he sat brewing on...or the fact that Dementors were feeding on all that had been good in him... And his first encounter with Snape upon returning to the real world is Snape's intrusion upon the Shrieking Shack scene and trying to send Sirius back to prison without listening to the real story?even after Dumbledore seemed to believe it. ("You fool," said Lupin softly. "Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban?" PoA Ch 19, p 359, US hardback) I think I would've been a little upset if I were Sirius...and that may not only rehash an old grudge, but start a new one! Silverthorne: As the 'positive' one of the Severus/Snape pair, he should have, even if Snape couldn't. That is, in my opinion (which may not match yours, and I know that), what a 'good guy' does, after all is said and done. And perhaps he would have eventually if he hadn't died at the MoM. Until then though, I am constantly left with the thought of "For god's sake, Sirius. You're on the same side and grown up now. Let it rest." But he couldn''t, and that does indeed color my opinion of him. Bella: How can say that Sirius should be better adjusted and morally developed than Snape? I mean it has been hinted that both had hard childhoods. And it seems that Sirius bullied Snape. But, while Sirius suffered for 13 years in a cold jail cell with dementors sucking all his happiness and 1 year in a cave eating rats and 1 year in the old house of his parents which forced upon him memories of a painful childhood, Snape got to spend those years all warm and snuggly and safe in the dungeons of Hogwarts under the care of Albus Dumbledore, the epitome of good in these books. Did he learn nothing from Dumbledore's example? No! He tried to send Sirius back to jail (I know! he believed he was a murderer at this point!) Then he goaded Sirius to do something rash and leave Grimmauld's place with his words that Sirius was not *useful*. Both are equally childish when it comes to their attitude towards each other. But which character do you really think a psychologist would say had an environment more conducive reforming, to *growing up*? My bet is not Sirius... And please don't think I'm picking on you, Silverthorne! I always enjoy reading your posts--mainly *because* your opinion is different than mine, and I like different perspectives! ~Bella From cerebella316 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 00:29:24 2004 From: cerebella316 at yahoo.com (cerebella316) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:29:24 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: <001b01c413bc$2a289aa0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94884 Bella: There has been quite a bit of interesting?what do I want to call it? "banter"??between Alla, Silverthorne, Kneasy, and others concerning the snarling Snape. (I choose the word "snarling," for it's alliteration and because its multiple definitions seem befitting!) As much as I have been trying not to get involved, I cannot bite my tongue any longer. So Silverthorne writes to Alla: I am well aware that these are literary characters, not real (and therefor it puzzles *me* when you seem to defend Harry as if he were a real child and not the 'stereotyped' young hero that he is). Kneasy takes the 'evil Snape' stance and does it well--but I seriously doubt he is the mean old codger he appears to be on list (In other words, I am teasing him, as I do off list on the few times we have spoken). A few private emails proves him to be intelligent and very tolerant, in spite of his 'old codger from hell' personna on the board. So...if the snipped quote you used is your argument for me 'taking it too far and assuming that is the way he really is', then you might want to consider that 'what you see' is not necassarily 'what you get' (The very accusation you have thrown at me twice now). Bella responds: But I thought that most of the discussion on the board is in agreement that "what you see is not necessarily what you get" when it comes to Snape. And, if he is playing the role of a spy, than this is true not only for us as readers, but also for many of the characters. And how can you blame Harry for how he perceives Snape (and therefore how we read him)? Snape has blatantly picked on Harry since Day 1 (which could very well be part of his act, but how is Harry to know this?) Even Hermione is surprised at the behavior of Snape during their first potion lessen in OoP (Ch. 12, "Professor Umbridge"). Was it necessary for Snape to attack Harry on the first day? When for once Harry hadn't done anything to provoke such treatment but forget to add an ingredient? I do not blame the character of Harry Potter for having qualms with Snape. Snape is a big paradox to Harry?someone he keeps being told is good, but rarely ever sees actions to support this. It's like a kid being told brussel sprouts are good for you. Time and time again you're forced to eat it, but the taste is so aversive you just can't fathom the good of it! And it's not like you can see the good it's doing for your body!! At this point JK wants us to think Snape is mean, but on the good side. (And *mean* does not equal *bad*. Really he's more *spiteful* than anything) So, then, what else would you expect to see on this board? The fact is, she has only been given little glimpses of what's good and trustworthy in Snape?not enough to draw any conclusive pictures of him! And, really, saying Snape is a "tolerant" person (no one truly doubts his intelligence), especially when Harry, Neville, and Hermione are concerned, is even more of a stretch than saying that Ron is a jealous person who has the potential to turn on Harry. So please do no insinuate that this message board is closed-minded. We have tried to bring Snape into the light, to understand him. We have scrutinized every word he has uttered, action he has made. and we have tried again and again to justify his flaws, as we have done with Dumbledore, Hermione, Harry, Ron, Sirius, Remus, etc. But, as of now, there is very little factual information to support our theories that he is, for lack of better words, *nicer* than Harry perceives him. We often revert back to the idea that he is a "mean old codger" because, so far, he has predominantly been a "mean old codger." If and when he isn't anymore, there are many of us who will be more than happy to change our tunes, and you can say "I told you so! I knew it all along." But until then ~Bella, who hopes beyond all hope that Snape has a heart, but thinks he is absolutely abominable to Harry, Neville, Hermione...and even Sirius... From rredordead at aol.com Fri Apr 2 00:30:13 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:30:13 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94885 > Steffy wrote: > Yes, but looking back into Gof, it doesn't seem like the WW follows > the same procedures for justice as the real world. There was no > trial for Sirius, and no lawyers for the other trials. People >could give testimony, but it doesn't seem like the WW is too >forgiving of people who are DE's, especially since Malfoy seems to >have already confunded them once... Mandy: You might very well be right about the trial and lawyers in the WW. I don't have any canon to support my idea, just chewing on some thoughts. You are right about Sirius not having a trial, but that was a different situation imo. Sirius did not have the support of his immensely powerful family backing him up at the time. They had turned their back on him. Ironically as Sirius was thrown in to Azkaban for being a mass murderer and LV heir apparent. One would think that would have redeemed him in his parent's eyes. But even if his parents had a turn-around and wanted to help their only remaining son at the time of his sentence, the time was all wrong. With LV being defeated the tied of public opinion was against anyone who was with LV, and the Black family along with all the purebloods, were desperately trying to distance themselves. To help their son would have either proven the family's loyalty to LV, or Sirius allegiance to DD. Neither option would have been acceptable to the Black family. For them, the best answer was to let Sirius rot in prison. Malfoy, on the other hand, looks like a good guy, we know he isn't but he has the WW on his side. He's managed to position himself where he maintains respect and power, and I don't think his camp will allow him to just be thrown into Azkaban without an explanation or a fight. Some sort of trial, or perhaps an inquiry will be demanded and I don't see how the WW cannot comply. Mandy From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 00:47:56 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:47:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: No one was to blame... I think! In-Reply-To: <1080852539.24196.39751.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040402004756.48455.qmail@web41901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94886 <> and Justine responded: <> Vickey: All I'm going to say is this...Snape did come to see Lupin because he hadn't taken his potion that night, but who says that Lupin had to wait for Snape to bring it to him? Lupin could have gone to the dungeons himself to get it. He had been taking it for at least 9 months during POA...it would have been a routine and I doubt that Snape always delivered it, but as for Lupin, it is possible, however out of character, that he forgot it in his disbelief at what he saw on the map. As for telling DD, remember this, DD was with Fudge and McNair...what do you think would have happened to Sirius then? >> Justine: It doesn't *have* to be an issue of character. Perhaps Lupin was planning on going to see Snape, but got majorly sidetracked by the sudden appearance of Peter's name. Would there have been, then, time to run down to the dungeons? Probably not. And even if he had, Snape would most likely have asked questions about why he, Remus, was in such a hurry. I doubt Lupin would have wanted Snape to be involved, especially if he had a tiny hope that Sirius was innocent (obviously of Peter's murder, but also of being the traitor). But, then again, we just don't know... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Apr 2 00:43:33 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:43:33 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94887 Kneasy: > By now you should have read Jen's post 94797 which may have filled in > a few of the gaps for you. Thank you, Jen! It's always a pleasure to come > across a mind as suspicious as my own. Jen: Wow! That's high praise, Kneasy. Maybe I've read too many of your posts..... Kneasy: > I'm pretty sure that Lucius knows exactly what Snape's position is; it'd > be difficult for him not to. Fellow DEs and Snape suddenly stops coming > down to the Scout Hut where they learn to tie knots in Muggles, naturally > he'd wonder what was wrong. Then the show trials after Voldy vanished > where Snape is revealed as an anti-Voldy agent. Jen: Here's where Lucius and Snape are weak--they have to trust each other to survive. Lucius is Snape's link to Voldy and Snape is Lucius' link to the Order/Harry. This connection will bring at least one of them down. In the meantime, what does Lucius do? On one hand, he's probably safer in Azkaban than fighting LV's war for him. OTOH, languishing in prison won't do much for the resume. To stay influential in the WW, he'll have to come out of the DOM mess as an innocent victim. (Mandy argues very persuasively in #94826 how this outcome might happen). The Order will be compromised when their link to Voldy is severed (hehe). And Snape will be in grave danger without Lucius to intercede for him. After all, LV has probably kept his hands off Snape with assurances from Lucius that Snape is valuable and he'll 'keep an eye on him'. Jen, thinking Lucius will go first, probably around the end of Book 6 ;) From jasnyder at intrex.net Fri Apr 2 01:16:36 2004 From: jasnyder at intrex.net (Jen Snyder) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 20:16:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's "small thing" in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94888 Well, I went back and checked the World Book Day transcript and I was mistaken, she didn't say it then...I guess I must have reread or recently seen the interview with her and Steve Kloves and confused the two...sorry! But thanks to those people who went and found the quote from the JKR/Kloves interview... It also occured to me that Wormtail uses Voldemort's wand to kill Cedric, with no appreciable problems, so I guess there probably isn't any big deal with someone using another's wand...oh, well, the search for clues continues unabated! Jen S. Jen S. wrote: > > There's something I'd been thinking about even before the > > release of OotP, but when JKR said in the recent World Book Day > > chat that there was a "small thing" she'd put in CoS that almost > > gave everything away... Jen R.: > > I don't think that information came from the World day Chat. I've > seen that particular comment referenced several times, but haven't > actually seen an interview transcript to verify it. If I'm wrong, > please correct me and send me a link! > Susan: Yes, Jen S.!! I agree with Jen R., **please** send any link you can find to this. I was one of the ones who claimed to have heard this [I think it was *heard* rather than *read*] but have been unable to unearth a quote. Siriusly Snapey Susan ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jasnyder at intrex.net Fri Apr 2 01:45:13 2004 From: jasnyder at intrex.net (Jen Snyder) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 20:45:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Two Questions about POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94889 Steffy wrote: 1. I believe Fred and George say that a tunnel on the MM that they had used before that once led to Hogsmeade is now caved in. I immidiately thought of the Chamber of Secrets. Maybe somehow the tunnels were connected. I don't think the twins were in the Chamber, but they could have been connected some way...any opinions? I just noticed that too, since I've just finished listening to CoS on tape and started PoA...and I thought to myself, I wonder if that tunnel caved in because of the tunnel collapse in CoS! I agree, Fred and George didn't go in the Chamber, but what happened there might have affected other parts of Hogwarts. Since this is a repetition of information (sort of), it does really make me wonder if there will be a return to the Chamber in book six or seven... Jen S. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 01:04:12 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (shrtbusryder2002) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 01:04:12 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Crucio. W as: Bellatrix and the Crucio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94890 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Eric signed off with: > Eric, who thinks that with his anger issues, he could have Crucio'd > Bellatrix to a crispy critter with no problem whatsoever. > > > Mandy responded: > No matter how angry Harry is right now, anger is not what is > required to produce an effective Crucio. According to Bellatrix "You > need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain ? to > enjoy it - righteous anger won't hurt me for long " OotP Pg 715 UK > edition. > School Library Journal 9/1/1999 The Truth About Harry Roxanne Feldman 'They are very keen to know whom I'm going to kill. Very, very, very keen. That fascinates me. I think I understand why. They are all really worried about Ron. They've seen so many films where the main character's best friend died [that] I think they have become incredibly wise and know the storyteller's tricks, basically. They know that if Ron died, *Harry would have such a grudge, that it would make it very personal.* (emphasis mine) Are you planning to kill off Ron? I can't let on too much." Enough of a grudge to really cause some pain? And I was thinking, I'm absolutely positive DD could use crucio to effect. The way I see it learning to use crucio might be like learning the summoning charm. At first it takes concentration and real focus, but after years of practice and learned focus it becomes second nature. Now, no doubt Crucio would still require a little effort, I would think full-grown wizards (esp DEs like Fake!Moody could manage it without needing to concentrate too hard.) Seems to me that a full grown Harry could manage it without being a horrible person inside. Jason, who thinks he would have Expelliarmussed Bellatrix first off and followed up with a Petrificus Totalus and then taken a nice leisure in Crucio! From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 01:40:21 2004 From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (Vickey) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 17:40:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Edition Differences (WAS: Re: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040402014021.40044.qmail@web14802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94891 azakitpgr wrote: Carol wrote: < >> Carolyn wrote: <> I (PGR) write: I have two copies of GoF, they are both UK editions. The first is the 12th typesetting and has the "Priori Incantatem" mistake. The second is the 21st typesetting and has the amended "Priori Incantatem". Both typesettings agree with Carolyn's first edition: Fawcett in Hufflepuff & Stebbins in Ravenclaw. PGR Me: (SiriusBlack4Eternity) I have the first ed. Am. without the corrections and it says: "Ten points from Ravenclaw, Fawcett!" "And ten points from Hufflepuff too, Stebbins!" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 02:03:43 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:03:43 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94892 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cerebella316" wrote: > Bella again! I know that this post is pretty much between Alla and > Silverthorne, but I can't help myself. > Hi, Bella! Please feel free to jump in at any time. :o) > > Bella: > > So don't think we haven't used "the same measuring > stick" for the characters. > Oh, thank you! Thank you so much! I do use the same " measuring stick for all the characters. But it is still possible to like one more than another after you looked from all angles and I don't think that it makes me a hyppocrite at all. :o) > Bella: > > You are forgetting that Sirius spent 13 years in prison. I'm sure > the detachment from the real world alone had some major impact on > Sirius's psychological, moral, and behavioral development. Not to > mention the guilt over the Potters death he sat brewing on...or the > fact that Dementors were feeding on all that had been good in him... > > And his first encounter with Snape upon returning to the real world > is Snape's intrusion upon the Shrieking Shack scene and trying to > send Sirius back to prison without listening to the real story?even > after Dumbledore seemed to believe it. ("You fool," said Lupin > softly. "Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back > inside Azkaban?" PoA Ch 19, p 359, US hardback) > > I think I would've been a little upset if I were Sirius...and that > may not only rehash an old grudge, but start a new one! > Yes, absolutely. I was always surprised when people wanted Sirius to apologise to Snape in Shrieking Shack. When? before Snape was going to send him to dementors or after? I am not even talking about posttraumatic stress disorder, etc. > Bella: > > How can say that Sirius should be better adjusted and morally > developed than Snape? I mean it has been hinted that both had hard > childhoods. And it seems that Sirius bullied Snape. But, while > Sirius suffered for 13 years in a cold jail cell with dementors > sucking all his happiness and 1 year in a cave eating rats and 1 > year in the old house of his parents which forced upon him memories > of a painful childhood, Snape got to spend those years all warm and > snuggly and safe in the dungeons of Hogwarts under the care of Albus > Dumbledore, the epitome of good in these books. Did he learn nothing > from Dumbledore's example? No! He tried to send Sirius back to jail > (I know! he believed he was a murderer at this point!) Then he > goaded Sirius to do something rash and leave Grimmauld's place with > his words that Sirius was not *useful*. > > Both are equally childish when it comes to their attitude towards > each other. But which character do you really think a psychologist > would say had an environment more conducive reforming, to *growing > up*? > > My bet is not Sirius... > I agree again. I would invite anybody who says it is easy to survive prison to visit one of the prisons in my former country (No, I haven't been in one, but it is a VERY common knowledge, because millions had been in prisons at one point, suffering unjustly) I guess it is in my subconscience to identify with such characters immediately, even if they are fictional Sirius and Severus are quite similar, but they are not identical. As I said to me - Sirius' pain is more on the surface, it is easier to see and identify with. Snape is a mystery. I am quite sure that he suffers somewhere very deep inside, but I got tired of imagining it. And of course, one of them loves Harry (even if he sometimes confuses him with James) and the other, well.... not. :o) > > Alla From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 02:09:38 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:09:38 -0000 Subject: "The Art of War" " Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer." Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94893 Neri wrote: No reasonable person will consider 'get down and give me fifty' a humiliation for long if he/she learns that all trainees are equally likely to do it. He will, however, consider almost *any* task a humiliation if he learns that it is invariably inflicted on people with a certain skin color or a certain foreign sound to their surname or from a certain house. Snape blew up even his drill sergeant credibility when he has discriminated against Gryffindors and favored incapable students such as Crabbe and Goyle. Snape may be a superb secret agent, but none of his "trainees" will follow him as a commander under fire. vmonte responds: I agree with Neri. All this military talk reminds me of a book called "The Art of War," a military book that is over 1000 years old (I think). Well anyway, this book has a very famous quote which says: "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer (not sure of exact quote). If DD is a strategist, then perhaps he has Snape at the school for a different reason altogether. Perhaps it's so that he can keep an eye on Snape. DD may also want Snape at the school so that the children learn about him, and people like him. The more the kids are around Snape the more they are going to learn about his weaknesses (just like Voldy). Perhaps DD is teaching the kids how to fight the DE's -- how to use the DEs weaknesses against them. I'm starting to think that Occulmency lessons were not so much to teach Harry how to close his mind, but how to read Snape's mind. I wonder if DD meant Harry to see what was in the penseive as well. vmonte From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 01:49:06 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 01:49:06 -0000 Subject: Favoring Crabbe & Goyle? [was:Re: OT: Drill Sergeant] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > >Carol: > > Did I answer all your questions, SSS? And can you and Neri answer > mine > > (regarding evidence of actually, as opposed to ignoring, Crabbe and > > Goyle)? > > > > Carol, who would have presented these opinions in her original post > > but wanted to hear from Neri first > > Neri: > Carol, I agree that Snape ignores Crabbe and Goyle completely, but > this is a BIG plus, considering the the kind of attention he pays to > Harry and his friends. It really would be a tedious overkill for me > to count here all the points taken, detentions, extra homework, > terrorizing and cruel remarks that the Gryffindors get from Snape on > a regular basis. If you're seriously claiming Snape doesn't practice > favoritism, please find me a *single* case of him punishing, or even > just frowning at Crabbe and Goyle (or at any other Slytherin for that > matter). > > Thinking of this, I can see Harry refusing to take Slytherins into > the DA in book 6, and Hermione convincing him otherwise by saying > that he must not behave like Snape. Carol: I guess what I'm saying is that it's a sort of reverse favoritism (picking on Harry and Neville and trying, not exactly tactfully, to get Hermione to stop interfering) while ignoring the misbehavior and failed potions of the Slytherins. I don't think Snape specifically *favors* Crabbe and Goyle (or any other Slytherin), except that he lets them get away with things he won't allow Harry (or Ron or Hermione) to get away with (because, IMO, it's very important to him that HRH follow directions and rules). I'm certainly not denying the detentions and point docking, etc., that he gives the Gryffindors (and possibly the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws as evidenced by the rosebush scene in GoF). Nor am I denying that he ignores Draco's misbehavior, but, as I've argued elsewhere, I don't think his favoritism of Draco (which I think is a cover because of his spy connections) extends to his grading standards. We aren't really disagreeing here except maybe in our definition of "favoritism." We both believe that Snape ignores Crabbe and Goyle, in contrast to his treatment of Harry et al. I just don't consider ignoring people to be favoritisim, especially considering that C and G are likely to have *failed* the Potions OWL, in which case, they won't be in Snape's NEWT Potions class. I think he made sure that Harry (and possibly Neville) *would* pass the OWL exam because they'd be able to apply what he forced them to learn without his presence to distract them. I'm betting that HRH, Draco, a few Revenclaws and Hufflepuffs, and possibly Neville will have NEWT Potions with Snape next year, but Crabbe and Goyle won't. Why? Because Snape's "favoritism" meant they got no attention from him and consequently they didn't learn to follow directions. Also we know his low tolerance for "dunderheads," and I can't see him making exceptions for the sons of arrested Death Eaters (even if he wanted to) without losing the respect of the rest of the school, staff and students alike. Carol, who hopes for Harry's sake that Snape's methods worked, whether we Muggles approve of them or not From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 02:20:25 2004 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 18:20:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wizard lawyers!? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040402022025.36127.qmail@web60103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94895 > Steffy (snip) Harry says he's already gotten Lucius in prison, and Draco says he wont' stay in there long . . . Mandy again: Yes, Malfoy is in Azkaban. But I don't think he has had a trial yet (snip). . . Not enough time for a trial as sensational at that of Mr Lucius Malfoy's (snip). . . Lucius Malfoy would have to have a trial of some sort to prove his guilt. After all he's don't nothing wrong until the prosecution has proven his guilt. Unless, you are not innocent until proven guilty in the WW, which could also be possible. Lucius is a powerful, influential man and there is no way the Wizangamot could get away with sending to Azkaban without a trial. I believe what the Wizengamot is doing is to hold him in Azkaban until his trial date comes up. And a man of Malfoy's status would have many powerful Lawyers working to get him out on the wizard equivalent of bail, while they build his defense. owlery2003 As a counselor, I shudder to imagine the retainer to be asked of Lucius. Of course, to arch-criminal types, it's not really an issue. The galleons will flow into the scales of justice. Why would the WW be any different? What a character JKR will paint of a wizarding lawyer! Without Barty Crouch to serve as prosecutor, who will be the agressive Ministry rep? While the omnipotent readers can rest assured of Malfoy's complicity, the outcome of any "trial" is far from certain, especially given the Voldy-leaning members of the Wizengamot. At Harry's trial, how many members voted to find him guilty? (help with canon requested). In the interim, the "bail" question is another interesting aspect tba. We know Malfoy's got the Wiltshire mansion to pledge if it comes to that. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 02:24:13 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:24:13 -0000 Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tipgardner" wrote: > I hate to sound snippy, but how is "Absolutely not!" an unequivocal > or somewhat vague answer? E.g. Am I connected to the production of > HP? Absolutely not! Very little room for interpretation there. Because the original question was poorly phrased. If the question had been "Is Snape a vampire?" and the answer been "Absolutely not!" Then the answer would not have been ambiguous. -Joe in SoFla From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 02:41:47 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:41:47 -0000 Subject: Re-reading CoS : questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "JoAnna" wrote: > Notice I said that the *guards* at Azkaban would notice, not that > the Dementors would notice. I'm sure there are wizard guards at > Azkaban now that the Dementors are gone, and I'm sure those wizard > guards would notice if Lucius wasn't where he was supposed to be. That seems plausible. But...do we have anything to lead us to believe that? -Joe in SoFla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 02:49:12 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:12 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94898 Kneasy wrote: I'm pretty sure that Lucius knows exactly what Snape's position is; it'd be difficult for him not to. Fellow DEs and Snape suddenly stops coming down to the Scout Hut where they learn to tie knots in Muggles, naturally he'd wonder what was wrong. Then the show trials after Voldy vanished where Snape is revealed as an anti-Voldy agent. Carol: Snape stopped coming to meetings because he was at Hogwarts. As I've already argued, this probably happened around September 1 of the year the Potters were killed, about two months before Godric's Hollow. Lucius doesn't necessarily know that Snape was arrested and got off, but he probably suspects that Snape, like Lucius himself and every other DE who "walked free," used the old Imperio excuse. Lucius being Lucius, sneaky, slippery, cunning, and untrustworthy, may suspect Snape of playing both sides, but he doesn't necessarily "know" that he's doing so, mcuh less that Snape is really firmly on DD's side (at least so far as the available evidence indicates). Kneasy again: Even though Malfoy was charged and found Not Guilty, it should have set his mind furiously to thinking - "How can I cover my back next time? How can I be certain of being on the winning side?" Easy. Be on both sides. He's vain enough to believe he can get away with it. He's never totally abandoned Voldy, he's never totally committed himself to the Order; he trims his sails to suit whatever wind is blowing. Make himself valuable to both sides - pass on information via Snape to the Order while still being chief roadie to the Voldy Victory Tour. "How else could I get the information?" he asks in a plaintive voice. Carol: What evidence do we have that Malfoy has anything but antipathy or contempt for the Order (his remark to Snape about seeing Sirius in dog form on Platform 9 3/4)? He would know through Peter who the former Order members were and he probably suspected (pre-MoM) that they'd gotten back together. (Now he *knows* they have.) He also had a pretty good idea, based on the people who accompanied Harry to the Platform i OoP, who the new members were. (He may not have recognized Tonks and we don't know whether he knows she's a Metamorphmagus, but he probably suspected the Weasleys. and Lupin was already a member of the old Order. Does he even know that Snape is in the Order? As I've argued elsewhere, he may guess it now that he's in Azkaban, but why would he necessarily know before--especially since Snape is as cagey as he is and knows to trust Malfoy as he would adders fanged? (I'm not arguing--just asking what you think.) Kneasy: I think he'd prefer Voldy to win; it would suit his personal convictions. Get all those mudbloods out of Hogwarts, clear the do-gooders out of the Ministry, isolate DD. But just in case.....better make myself useful to the other side. The diary performed it's planned function perfectly. It got DD out of the chair at Hogwarts. Malfoy wasn't concerned about a few casualties at Hogwarts, that sort of person didn't belong there anyway. But the plan unravelled - there were too many casualties and the genie (snake) wouldn't go back in the bottle, so parent power got DD re-instated, not only that, Potter got lucky - again. Carol responds: Since "the other side" is essentially Dumbledore (and Harry if and when he grows up), I don't quite see the diary and the CoS incident was useful to anyone on the good side. For that matter, I'm not sure how it would have helped Voldemort. Here's how I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong. Voldemort was still vaporized. Malfoy may or may not have known that he had been in the back of Quirrell's head the previous year. (What, we wonders, was the condition of Malfoy's Dark Mark at that point? Were there signs that LV was stirring in Middle Earth, erm, the WW?) He somehow acquired the diary (I won't go into how, since our discussion some time back never resolved the question to my satisfaction). He may or may not have known what it was and who Tom Riddle was. (Did he know then, as he knows now, that Tom was a half blood? Did it matter?) He put the diary into Ginny's cauldron apparently hoping that the Chamber of Secrets would be reopened an more Muggle-borns killed. (Did he know the monster was a basilisk? Did he know that the Heir of Slytherin was Tom Riddle, the future Lord Voldemort? Was he trying to resurrect Voldemort in the form of Tom or just to kill off some Muggle-borns and make trouble for DD? Did he somehow expect Harry to be killed as well even though Harry was a half blood? If not, what was Dobby so upset about?)His plan failed, thanks to DD, Fawkes, and Harry. But--and here's where it gets interesting--what if the plan had succeeded? Ginny would be dead and the Weasleys disgraced, various Muggle-borns would be dead, Dumbledore would be ousted, and Hogwarts would be closed until matters could be "sorted out" (Draco would be sent to Durmstrang under fellow DE Karkaroff)--all well and good from Lucius's point of view. But, and here's the rub, Voldemort would be back in the form of Tom Riddle--young and alive with what had been Ginny's life. Was that what Malfoy really wanted? And what if the *real* Voldemort, at that point still Vapormort, found out about his other self? Would they merge identities of would they be rival manifestations of the same evil overlord, Voldemort and his clone? Imagine Vapormort resurrected by PP, at war with his other self, young Tom Riddle resurrected (inadvertently or not) by Malfoy's diary ploy. So my question is: Does Voldemort even know about the incidents in the Chamber of Secrets and Malfoy's role in them? If so, why didn't he mention them in the graveyard? Or is Malfoy keeping silent to protect himself? Although I agree with Kneasy that "DD knows exactly what happened," at least as far as Malfoy's role in initiating the events is concerned, I disagree that he's "prepared to use Malfoy, maybe even forgive, so long as it helps gets rid of a greater evil." Snape, yes, because he has his own reasons for wanting LV utterly and permanently destroyed. Malfoy, no, because his first concern is himself. Imagine Dumbledore saying to Harry, "I trust Lucius Malfoy." I don't think so. Carol, who hopes that people aren't deterred by her long post From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 03:07:02 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:07:02 -0000 Subject: Re-reading COS : questions In-Reply-To: <000c01c41833$e6d47ae0$871d0f0a@bre.uop.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94899 Del asked: > 4. Salazar Slytherin, or rather his statue : it is described as > having an "ancient and monkey-like" face (p. 329). Unusual > description, which put in my mind the image of a goblin. Could there > be a connection between SS and the goblins ? Could SS be the > ultimate fraud, pretending to want to clean Hogwarts of all non- > purebloods when he in fact was half-goblin ? > > Aesha responded: Well, are non purebloods just those who are muggle born or the child of a muggle and a witch/wizard? Perhaps someone who is a 'halfblood' would still be considered pureblood if they're a magical creature. I don't know about that, though. Carol: I find Aesha's response interesting in light of JKR's revelation that Remus Lupin is a half blood. Did JKR mean that Lupin is a) a "half and half" like Seamus? b) half pureblood, half Muggle-born like Harry? or c) half witch/wizard, half werewolf like--well, like nobody else we know in the WW. But option C could account for his having a werewolflike last name, and, as I postulated elsewhere in a post that no one responded to, it could have been his father who bit him. (Reactions, anybody? Don't bite me!) Carol, who notes that Severus Snape also has the initials SS and wonders if there's another way that we can refer to Salazar Slytherin to avoid confusion From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 03:14:19 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:14:19 -0000 Subject: Underage magic enforcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94900 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me > wrote: > > > Mo: > > > > Didn't Harry get an official warning when Dobby made > > the cake fall on the lady's head? No wands were being > > used then, because Uncle Vernon had HP's wand locked > > away. > > Geoff: > Interesting thought just crossed my mind when I read this. OK, so (1) > there was wandless magic involved and (2) Harry was the fall guy. > > However, hasn't it been suggested that house elves have magic of > their own (possessing the ability to apparate where no man has > apparated before for instance). Shouldn't therefore the Ministry be > able to distinguish magic originating from an elf? Carol: Evidently not. Remember my post(s) pointing out that the note from Mafalda Hopkirk was written in the passive voice: "A hover charm *was performed*"? The MoM apparently assumed that it was performed by the only known wizard in the area, but they didn't accuse him straight out as they did in OoP. Which is how we got onto the wand vs. wandless magic aspect of Underage Magic in various threads awhile back. Possibly those posts were among the thousand or so that were written while you were away from the list. . . . Carol From kking0731 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 2 03:23:07 2004 From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:23:07 -0500 Subject: JKR's "small thing" in CoS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94901 Here is the address for the article with Steve. Sorry I couldn't hyperlink it for you, my mail just doesn't seem to want to cooperate with me. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2003/0302-newsround-mzimba.htm Kathy _________________________________________________________________ Get reliable access on MSN 9 Dial-up. 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time offer) http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup&pgmarket=en-us&ST=1/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ From kking0731 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 2 03:33:17 2004 From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:33:17 -0500 Subject: JKR's "small things" in CoS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94902 OOps...Apparently hotmail hyperlinks for you! Learn something new everyday. Kathy- who's just a little pc illiterate _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 03:33:32 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:33:32 -0000 Subject: Two Questions about POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94903 Steffy wrote: I believe Fred and George say that a tunnel on the MM that they had used before that once led to Hogsmeade is now caved in. I immidiately thought of the Chamber of Secrets. Maybe somehow the tunnels were connected. I don't think the twins were in the Chamber, but they could have been connected some way...any opinions? Geoff: I've answered this before myself but couldn't trace the message number tonight. The two are not linked. The cave-in in the Chamber of Secrets is below ground because Ron, Harry and Lockhart have gone down the pipe from the girls' bathroom at that point... > ...'We must be miles under the school,' said Harry, his voice echoing in the black tunnel. > 'Under the lake probably,' said Ron, squinting around at the dark, > slimy walls.'" > But this is nowhere near the tunnle referred to by Fred and George...> > "'....Don't bother with this one behind the mirror on the fourth > floor. We used it until last winter but it's caved in - completely > blocked'" Carol adds: Also, of course, one passage leads to the Chamber of Secrets and the other leads out of the castle, presumably to Hogsmeade. The passage to the CoS would not have shown up on the Marauder's Map, which MWPP made for their own mischievous adventures, because no one other than the Heir of Slytherin (or Harry) could find the passage from the girls' bathroom to the locked stone door with the snakes on it (IIRC). And even if MWPP or the Twins had somehow discovered the passage to the CoS, they could not have used it for escaping Hogwarts as the Twins used "th[e] one behind the mirror on the fourth floor." Still, that passage could possibly be cleared with a good Reductor Curse. But as someone else pointed out (sorry I can't remember who), PP has undoubtedly revealed the existence and whereabouts of all the passages on the Marauder's Map to LV, and the best thing to do would be to close them all as quickly as possible. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 04:05:48 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 04:05:48 -0000 Subject: LV's boggart In-Reply-To: <15526588.1080843380556.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94904 > Mo wrote: > Why fight a boggart when you can just AK it? > > However, I too am curious what form would LV's boggart > take. LV doesn't really fear anything except love. > How can love take a form? > > > Lynette responded: > Would it appear as his dead Mother? > > But, he doesn't fear love - just don't understand it and > could be hurt by it. He fears death and DD. Carol tries to answer both posts at once: I agree that LV doesn't fear love. As I said in an earlier post, it's his own death he fears, so if his boggart took that form rather than DD's, it would no doubt appear as his own corpse, not his mother's. But *can* you AK a boggart, as Mo suggests? Does it have a life in the sense that a human being does? I suppose a sufficiently cold-blooded person could AK a cat or a snake (Nagini, anyone?) but a boggart? Most wizards, of course, couldn't do an AK and wouldn't try it even on a boggart because of the evil and corrupting nature of the spell itself, but most wizards also have enough of a sense of humor to ridicule a boggart into oblivion. I suppose even LV could find some sinister way to make a DD boggart laughable and consequently destroy it, but *would* he have to resort to an AK to destroy the boggart if it represented his own death? And if so, would an AK destroy it? I'm not at all sure it would. Carol From drdara at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 04:40:44 2004 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 20:40:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Edition Differences (WAS: Re: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040402044044.37719.qmail@web60709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94905 I have 2 Am Ed copies, 1 hardback, 1 paperback, the hb is a 1st edition and has the priori incantatem mistake and FAwcett in Ravenclaw and Stebins in Hufflepuff. The PB fixed teh mistake and still has FAwcett in RAvenclaw and Stebins in Hufflepuff. Plus I doublechecked the chapter where Fawcett gets sent too the infirmary cause of her beard and both copies say ravenclaw. DAnielle D. --- justcarol67 wrote: > I (Carol) wrote: > < the First > Scholastic Trade Paperback, copyright 2000 but > printed in 2002. it > contains the correction in the order of the "echoes" > coming out of > Voldemort's wand in the "Priori Incantatem" chapter, > which to me > suggests that it may contain other corrections as > well. (My > apologies for forgetting to put "Am. ed." but maybe > it's a > felicitous blunder in this case.) What's the year on > yours? > (Anybody with a corrected UK edition ca. 2002?) > > BTW, I think the error is in the Canadian edition > >> > > Carolyn responded: > in 2000, > says '10 points from Hufflepuff, Fawcett!" on p.371. > (In contrast > to the Miss Fawcett who is clearly identified as a > Ravenclaw in > the age-line scene on p.229). Definitely two Fawcett > girls, maybe > three taking into account the Miss Fawcett mentioned > in the > duelling scene in CS.>> > > PGR wrote: > I have two copies of GoF, they are both UK editions. > The first is the > 12th typesetting and has the "Priori Incantatem" > mistake. The second > is the 21st typesetting and has the amended "Priori > Incantatem". > Both typesettings agree with Carolyn's first > edition: Fawcett in > Hufflepuff & Stebbins in Ravenclaw. > > Carol: > Thanks, everyone. Then either the American edition > is the only correct > one (the chances of that are, alas, rather slim) or > there are two > Fawcett girls, one in Ravenclaw and one in > Hufflepuff. Neither, > apparently, is in Harry's year, or they would have > been named in the > Sorting Ceremony. (Should I burn my American > editions?) > > Carol, who wishes she could see the original > manuscript > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 04:59:04 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 04:59:04 -0000 Subject: Peter kiling Cedric (Was: JKR's "small thing" in CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94906 -Jen Snyder wrote: It also occured to me that Wormtail uses Voldemort's wand to kill Cedric, with no appreciable problems, so I guess there probably isn't any big deal with someone using another's wand...oh, well, the search for clues continues unabated! Carol: Well, yes and no. First, Peter had mastered the AK (which BTW pretty much eliminates any chance of his redemption IMO) and he was Voldemort's servant doing Voldemort's will with Voldemort's wand, so there probably wouldn't have been much conflict. Also, as a plot device, he had to use the wand in order for Cedric to come out of it, so the plot need outweighed the need to be consistent with Ollivander's words in another book. (I can't figure out how the wand gets into Voldemort's pocket after Peter drops it to grasp his bleeding arm, but oh, well. I don't know how Harry held onto the cup, Cedric's arm, and his own wand, either.) Where was I? Oh, yes. Has anyone besides me noticed that both Dumbledore and Harry alwasys say that Voldemort murdered Cedric? Technically, this statement is not quite true. Voldemort, a baby-shaped monster wrapped in a cloak, gave the order, but Wormtail pointed the wand and spoke the words that actually killed him. In other words, he committed murder, orders or no orders. Yet it's as if, in DD's and Harry's view, Wormtail is only an instrument like the wand and bears no share of the blame. The first and most obvious explanation that I see for Dumbledore's behavior is that he wants everyone to know that Voldemort is back and very dangerous, and his message will be more effective (he thinks) if he states that Voldemort killed Cedric and omits the detail of the middleman. Another reason, of course, is that the particular DE who murdered Cedric is supposed to be dead, and the story would come across as preposterous ("the usual dead man returning to life" or whatever Fudge says in "Parting of the Ways"). Dumbledore apparently never reveals all the details of Harry's adventures at the end-of-year banquet (the basilisk is anything but common knowledge), but he's especially close-lipped in this instance. Harry, of course, doesn't want to talk about Cedric because the memory is too painful, but possibly he also is afraid he won't be believed (again). And he, too, seems chiefly concerned with convincing everyone that Voldemort is back. I understand all this, but I'm still bothered by it. In a (Muggle) court of law, I suppose, both LV and Wormtail would be guilty, but still: Voldemort murdered Cedric is a half-truth. Wormtail murdered Cedric under Voldemort's orders is the full truth. Is anyone besides me bothered by this? or can you "sort it out" for me so I find it less disturbing? Anybody? Carol From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 05:12:05 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 05:12:05 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94907 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cerebella316" wrote: > Bella again! I know that this post is pretty much between Alla and > Silverthorne, but I can't help myself. > Annemehr: Heh. Neither can I! > > Silverthorne: > > Some people defend Snape, some Sirius, some Harry, some defend all > or none at all. I take Snape's side because until recently he was > the most 'maligned' when it comes to who is right, wrong, or indifferent. I > never said you could NOT have your opinions--I only stated that I > wished people would give the same regards and respectful examination > to all the characters--use the same measuring stick and see beyond > the surface of things (something which is further colored by Harry- > as-the-narrator). > > > Bella: > > But we have!! I have been reading messages on this site for?oh my?2 > years now? (Long before OoP) And we have put every character under > the microscope. There has been talk of ESE!Lupin, ESE!Ollivander, > ESE!Ron, ESE!Molly, ESE!Dumbledore, ESE!Hermione, and the list goes > on and I don't mean necessarily that we've thought they all could be > evil at some point, but we have studied everything from possible > ulterior motives to just their basic flaws in their personalities. Annemehr: And don't forget about the Snapologists ("Snape Apologists" mooshed together)! Until the release of OoP, and maybe for a short while after (I missed a good chunk of July), there was a whole flock of them who would remind you of their presence if anyone dissed Snape on the list. They hung around TBay a lot, and they seemed to be the most formidable defenders a character ever had. Not to mention Snape's other fans who weren't officially licensed in Snapology. A proud tradition, supporting Snape! Annemehr who admits to liking Harry best, but Snape is way up there, honest; and who's logged a year and a half on the list (RL: who needs it?) From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Fri Apr 2 05:15:34 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 23:15:34 -0600 Subject: Stepping even further into the Quagmire... Message-ID: <003201c41871$875237e0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 94908 Okay....since my points seem to have gotten a little muddy here...probably because I let myself get sidetracked, I'll lay down my opinions here. I know many of you do not agree with me, either in whole or in part, and that's fine. I'm not participating in order to make converts, or to have a battle royale about morals and who is 'right' or 'wrong' in the series--I'm more interested in just talking out possibiIities. Remember, please that these are *opinions*. More importantly, they are opinions about fictional characters, so although some of the characters I (like the rest of you) would not tolerate (or at least not tolerate certain actions from them) should I meet them, as literary characters, I can appreaciate them from a slightly different angle and in a different light then I would from real people. I suppose that I should make that clear...they aren't real, so although I enjoy the books, laugh and cry and curse and cheer just like other readers....I don't expect a fully 'real world' experince, so I make allowances that would not be very cool otherwise in my eyes if this were all real. I realize my mistake in the whole 'Sergeant Snape' thing was in abandoning Snape (and his part in regards to Harry) completely in order to explain the military (with help from my life mate), and not really link it back to story (which ended up happening anyway through other people), even though I did make a few feeble attempts. So....here's the points I was trying to make overall (Gonna leave the military angle out this time). Remember, these are just my opinions...like the rest of you, I am niether omniscent nor the author of the series...this is *just* what *I* get out of the books...everyone else will get something different out of it. That's the beauty of being individual human beings. The main point (and the one I'm getting into the most trouble for right now), is that we most often take an unbalanced view of the characters. An *example* of this is 'Sirius has better reason than Snape to be as he is because he was in prison, and we haven't seen Snape go through anything truly horrible yet'. Although that is perfectly 'good' logic, especially if you can relate to Sirius better than Snape (for *whatever* reason--I don't think we need to hash over Snape's numerous faults yet again to agree on this), it still invalidates Snape's side of it (good or bad). As Del pointed out, this is not really fair--*everyone* has things that make them good and/or bad, everyone has had extrememly painful experiences in their lives that are exactly that--extremely painful--*to them*--and Rowling applies that fact to her characters. It doesn't, however, make thier side (or the other person's side) any less or more important. It just makes it their side. To another person, whatever the experince was may not even be a factor as to whether or not it would be considered painful, either because the situation would not bother them, or they have not been in that situation themselves. Either way, the character who does *Not* have that painful situation happen to them may not have a sympathetic viewpoint. However, it does not make the person who suffered through that situation, no matter what it was, have any less of a valid claim to let that situation affect them somehow. We as the audience may not like it, understand it, or agree...but it is still *valid*. So, yes, Snape has as good a reason to be as he is, as Sirius does to be as he is. Or Harry has to be as he is...or any of the characters have to be as they are. We may not know what it is, we may not agree, we may not even *know* the reasons yet. At any rate, all of them deserve benefit of the doubt, there is more there then meets the eye, if only because Rowling has not finished the series yet. Snape may turn out to be as irredeemably evil and nasty as some think he is...or he may turn out to be one of the 'goodest' (is that a word?) characters of the book (Yes, I know, not likely, but I'm just trying to illustrate something here, not insist that he *IS* that good...besides, the thought of him smiling, being polite and wearing pastels at the end of all this makes my teeth itch....In fact, I think I need to go take a Benadryl before I go on...BRB...^^;). The same can go for Sirius...we know more about him than about Snape, but we don't know everything. I would love to find out Sirius's only 'fault' was an unreasoning hatred and treatment of 'bad' people (Snape and Kreacher, and others 'like' them), but we do have hints that it was more far reaching than that, at least in his teen years (Just ask Lupin). Hopefully, though, it was just the typical teen male who had everything and thinks he owns the world attitude...that can be grown out of. And maybe he did, before Azkaban...but we don't see that either yet--his adult personna echoes his teen one as far as we can see. Still, I am willing to say Sirius is brave, loyal (nay, *DEVOTED*), and most definetely on the 'good guys' side. NO argument there. But he went against a few things that *I* felt a 'hero', no matter how damaged he may be, should know better then to do. He hates seeing it when other people do it...so why isn't he smart enough to see it in himself and change it? And, believe it or not, that's where I give (or gave) Sirius far more credit then Snape until the fifth book--Sirius is smart, kind, and a **good guy**. He has a brain, and *Should* be able to do the one thing Snape cannot--look inside himself, see where the 'flaw' is, and fix it, despite Azkaban. Actaully, because of it. If he can hold himself together in that place, surely he can apply that same wit, iron will, and clarity to himself? But, again, that's just my own personal beef and opinion. And it will likely change as soon as Rowling gives us more backstory on Sirius...I'm sure there's far more 'good' to him than 'bad'...but at the moment, I don't have that information. So what I'm left with is a reader's disappointment that he wasn't as 'good' as I thought he was...don't worry, I'll get over it...maybe even before the next book comes out. But I still think it was crummy that he was a bully...and it makes me more inclined to defend Snape...because that was where the 'nasty' part of Sirius was focused...I have to wonder who started what...and who insisted on continuing it. For all we know, Sirius *did* start it...(Remember, it was he and James who were picking on Snape in that scene, not because he attacked them, but, because "Well, it's more the idea that he *exists*") By the same token, it might have been Snape...although I'm less inclined to believe it thanks to that scene. Truthfully, it was probably a mutual thing--both sides starting in on *each other*. No 'victims', just a mutual and all-encompassing anathama. I don't expect others to agree....but that is where I am on that... Harry....well, all I can say about Harry is that I started out wholly empathetic with him...his life with the Durselys had parallels with what I went through with my mother. I understood this poor, unloved, abused, *imprisoned* kid. Like everyone else, I wanted to take him aside and just hug the daylights out of him. Poor kid...and it didn't get better as the books went on. Oh no, it got worse. Murdered parents, a psychotic asshole killer who wants to take over the world wanting to kill him...people liking him, not for who he was, but 'what' he was...and then turning on him at a moments notice, as the fickle followers of the 'flavor of the month' club either found something else to like, or discovered his 'faults', thanks to Rita Skeeter. I really do feel sorry for him. I hated Snape right along with him too (yes, I did). And then Harry started growing up...he still has these problems...but now he has friends (something I really did not have until my twenties and I learned to trust people for real), an adoptive family in the Weasleys, adults who look out for him (granted, they don't hold his hand at every turn, but if they had, the book would be more about healing Harry then the situation of dealing with Voldemort--which is, after all, the point of this whole story arc), and even a good reputation among people who know better than to believe everything the Daily Prophet churns out. He's young, he's still wounded....but he's strong. Very strong....and smart. And yet....well, you know the list. Doesn't listen....won't talk to people when he needs help...chews on his friends...so on and so forth. Yes, he's young (but getting older), he's been through hell...but like Sirius, he has a brain...I just wish Rowling would let him use it a little. I still like the kid...I'm still routing for him, but knowing that he's in a postion...a bad one...where quite frankly, he doesn't have the luxury of *being* a kid...I keep wanting to find an extractor for his cranium-in-posterior problem. Unlike the potions master, Harry *needs* to be clear...and, by the same token, I have no doubt he will be when he needs to be...I suppose my 'crime' against Harry is that I expect him to be stronger than he is...more mature...more...disciplined. If only because I feel he'll need it for the final fight with Ol Moldy Voldy. I just want to see it develop a lot sooner then when that time comes.... As for RL...if I gave the impression that I felt any of your opinions were invalid in any way, I do apologize. That was not my intent. Like most people, there are times I do not express myself clearly. Please understand that.. I am sorry for any cause I may have given for that assumption to be made. Any crow you would like me to eat can be sent to my email address. Just please, remember the salsa and guacamole, or I'll never be able to get it down...^^; Most of my frustration with this discussion has been that the broader issues were ignored for the sake of nitpicking little things--Yes, we *all* know Snape is obnoxious and mean (and not the man we would want teaching our children--except maybe to teach them that there *are* mean people on the planet, here is one, and this is what you should do to try and deal with him...), especially to Harry. Even Snape's defenders agree to that...Just as we all *know* that Sirius was a bit immature and did a few things that, to be put kindly, were unwise, and just as we all know Harry, no matter what the reasons are, is going through a very angry time right now, and it's making it very hard for the kid to think and function well. Again....they all have valid reasons. And the people onlist defending each of them have valid reasons as well. So I suppose the frustration comes from the 'yes, but....' responce that is the most common start of any disagreement (And I'm just as guilty of it, although I've been tryng lately to keep all things on an equal footing). Now, before everyone picks up thier '____ for President" banners (so to speak) for thier favs, let me make this statement--because it is at the crux of what I have been trying to say from the beginning. *ALL* of these characters have both good points and bad. Some are obvious, some not so much. All of them have done good things (individual motives set aside--they all really *have* done good things), all of them have done questionable things, and all of them have done truly abominable things. Again, lay aside the motives, and I think we can all agree on this. We still may not *like* a certain character, due do other flaws we percieve in them, but I think we *can* agree on that--no matter which character it is...and that's all I'm really after...that acknowledgement. The nitpicking and moral judgements, one way or another, are just window dressing each of us bring to the discussion, based on individual emotions, values, experiences, and moral expectations. Just as we'll each pick a few characters to defend (often at the exspence of another), even if we happen to like *all* of them... Well...at least for a few exceptions...most of which are the likes of Umbridge, Crouch, DE, Voldy himself, ect...^^; Anyway, I hope I managed to make myself a little clearer without offending anyone this time around **crosses fingers** For the record: I am not a pacifist, but I don't like war, and wish we didn't need a military. By the same token, I understand the need for one...and the need to defend oneself. If my child had a teacher like Snape, I would be paying close attention to the class, but would not withdraw my child from the class unless it was obvious that they are not receiving the grades they should be receiving (Of course, I would be doing homework with my child, speaking with the teachers on a regular basis, and taking advantage of open houses and the like, so hopefully I would catch this). If it turned out that it was merely verbal, I would work on giving my child the tools to stand up to the teacher and keep a healthy self repsect despite the damned bastard (although hopefully I would have *already* been doing this for my child since it is one of my primary duties as a mother)--because someday, my child *will* run into another person just like this--better they know how to deal with them sooner then later because you can not run away from all your 'enemies'...there's always 'one more Snape' right around the corner...if it turned out to be more than verbal--including unfair grading and abuse, my child would be out of there quicker than you could say 'out'. Just thought I would point that out in case you all thought I was some sort of weird monster myself...^^; I feel that children understand more than we give them credit for, and are quite capable of learning things long before we're ready to teach them. As long as a parent is there to watch over them, bolster their self-confidence, and keep a gentle, guiding hand on them (although discipline is also necassary), the child should be fine, no matter what life throws at them. But it has to start with the parent. (In the context of HP, I know that Harry does not have this, but the other kids do...in Neville's case, though, his Gran makes him worse rather then better with her constant nagging and less than complimentary remarks--so the opnion there is that Neville would have handled Snape a hell of a lot better if Gran hadn't already undermined his confidence all those years...I'm not excusing Snape (put the bludgers down, please), but I do think Neville already was messed up before the Potions Master got hold of him). My favorite characters, in order, are, Snape, Lupin, Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore, Minerva, and Harry...the others are well-liked, but not as much...^^ Out of all of them, I defend Snape the most because of a belief (probably highly misguided) that he is not as bad as he seems. Besides, even the raving arses need a few people routing for them. ---Not to mention that I want to be close enough to him to strangle him if he really is a nasty creep...*winks*--- G'night all... ************************************* Anne/Silverthorne Silverthorne.Dragon at verizon.net (Nights and Weekends) Anne-TMC-RCVG.Campbell at tenetheath.com (6am-3pm American Central, Mon-Fri.) "It is better to die than to loose your wrench"--Paraphrased from a former Navy Mechanic. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 05:18:03 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 05:18:03 -0000 Subject: Edition Differences (WAS: Re: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II) In-Reply-To: <20040402014021.40044.qmail@web14802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94909 Carol wrote: < BTW, I think the error is in the Canadian edition >> Carolyn wrote: <> PGR wrote: > I have two copies of GoF, they are both UK editions. The first is the 12th typesetting and has the "Priori Incantatem" mistake. The second is the 21st typesetting and has the amended "Priori Incantatem". Both typesettings agree with Carolyn's first edition: Fawcett in Hufflepuff & Stebbins in Ravenclaw. SiriusBlack4Eternity wrote: I have the first ed. Am. without the corrections and it says: "Ten points from Ravenclaw, Fawcett!" "And ten points from Hufflepuff too, Stebbins!" Carol: Okay, that blows my original theory that it was a correction made at the same time as the order of the spells in the graveyard scene. At least we can place the blame (or credit?) squarely on the American editor since it appears in the first American edition and not in any British or Canadian edition. It's still possible that the American editor caught an inconsistency that the British editor didn't and it's also true that JKR would have read and accepted or rejected any editorial corrections (at least authors are *supposed* to do that. I know; I edit for a living). Well, we'll see how many Fawcetts there are when Book 6 comes out. Either the American editor was right and the British version is a Flint, or the American editor did us all a disservice and deserves to be sent an April Fools joke along the lines of our Administrative message (which had me going for the first paragraph even though I knew the List Elves didn't know my birth date. But when I got to the embedded Sebald method, I remembered the date). Carol, whose posting date is some time next year ;-) From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Apr 2 05:38:56 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 00:38:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No one was to blame... I think. Message-ID: <99.450f91a1.2d9e5670@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94910 In a message dated 4/1/04 6:30:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Does look a bit as if Remus was so gobsmacked by what he saw that he took off without thinking everything through....<< So gobsmacked he takes off, forgetting about his potion, forgetting about the full moon, forgetting to de-activate the map, and yet when he gets to the Shack he's "remarkably calm"? One way or another, he's a terrific actor. Pippin Actually Lupin is not calm, Page 252, POA UK version. Then Lupin spoke, in an odd voice, a voice that shook with some supressed emotion. "Where is he, Sirius?" I would say he was rattled. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cerebella316 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 01:33:12 2004 From: cerebella316 at yahoo.com (cerebella316) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 01:33:12 -0000 Subject: Clue that Dumbledore and Harry had a previous relationship... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94911 Siriusly Snapey Susan: I always thought this remark simply meant that--because he has let Harry down, because he has failed in some ways, and because Harry is so angry with him--DD is wondering if their close relationship might be *over*. Comments? Then Steffy07: OOTP was my favorite book of the series for many reasons, it was dark, amusing, surprising and touching. I am a huge, HUGE, Lupin and Sirius fan and was devasted at Sirius' death. But, the part of the book that affected me the most was when DD is talking to Harry, and Harry is expressing so much rage and frustration. I thought that DD was scared that maybe Harry wouldn't forgive him. I don't have my copy of OOTP in front of me, but I seem to recall him crying (or getting teary-eyed) when he said why he didn't make Harry prefect? Dumbledore loves Harry, and he has seen Harry suffer so much, I think that he is worried that maybe their relationsihp might suffer. With that being said, however, I always took that particular quote to mean that LV could never know how much of a role DD had played in shaping Harry's life while Harry was at Hogwarts. That he didn't need to know how close they were even back in the SS/COS years. Now Bella: I have to say that this was one of the most emotional HP scenes for me. It really shows how much Harry hurts and how much Dumbledore cares. It shows DD like a father who tried to do what was best for Harry (and Sirius), but in fact chose to do what was worst! Happens all the time in real life! And, personally, I think what DD meant with his remark about Voldemort realizing their relationship is that DD was afraid Voldemort would realize that Dumbledore loves Harry and use that to his advantage (like he did when he possessed Harry and goaded Dumbledore to kill him in Harry's body and Dumbledore couldn't do it!) Knowing that DD loves HP could be a powerful weapon for LV. (Heehee--all the abbrevations sound funny to read!) Also, I find it interesting that he alludes to a relationship with Harry that Harry really hasn't come to realize and count on. Harry *does not* turn to DD for support. He likes being "Dumbledore's favorite boy," and he never wants DD to think him weak or scared or crazy. So he actually often shies away from turning to DD for help. But I think Harry will now. I think the conversation that DD was afraid would end their *relationship* will actually make it stronger. (Or at least I hope it does!) ~Bella, who hopes beyond hope that Harry finally becomes comfortable in turning to DD for support, now that Sirius is gone. If not DD, then Lupin, or Mrs. Figg, or--God!--even Snape! Just someone!! Or all of them! He's really going to need as much support as he can get! From amycrn4230 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 02:49:42 2004 From: amycrn4230 at yahoo.com (amycrn4230) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:42 -0000 Subject: Being an animagus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94912 This is my first post, so hello all... Here is my question...In the chat with JKR recently she says that a person who studies to be an animagus cannot choose what they are to become, and in the PoA, I got the impression that the boys picked their animals in order to be big enough to "control" the werewolf (Remus)???...and my 2nd question is this...how did a stag fit in that tiny passageway to the shrieking shack? (p. 337 American Ed. "They moved as fast as they could, bent almost double...") Thanks for letting me lurk...these discussions are most enlightening! AmyC From jjjjjulie at aol.com Fri Apr 2 03:28:07 2004 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:28:07 -0000 Subject: feelings...nothing more than feelings... (was: Re: Harry's disposition ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94913 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" wrote: > What I meant by my question was: Why do you (and other HPfGUers) > suppose he is hesitant (or worse, adamant not) to reach out for > that counsel? > > In a sense, his impetuousness blinded him and because he didn't > stop to remember the 2-way mirror, it might be said he contributed > to Sirius' death. It might be said, yes. But on the other hand, he deliberately put the mirror away because he thought using it would endanger Sirius. I would say that how he contributed to Sirius' death was by not following the directives of Snape and Dumbledore; that is, to learn to close his mind to Voldemort. (This is why, by the way, I'm a bit puzzled by the list discussion which seems to somehow absolve Harry of his responsibility to learn this skill on the basis that Snape was being mean to him--Harry deliberately disobeyed his elders, and elders who are doing everything they can to save his life, at that.) This is, in its own way, I think, typical Harry behavior: simultaneously thinking he knows more than he does not realizing the full extent of what he does know, and not stopping to fully think through his actions. Why doesn't he go for counsel? He doesn't feel he needs it, some of the time. And some of the time, because he knows he'll be punished for what he did. However, I do think that this is all going to begin to change rather drastically in book 6 because now that the mythical hero, Harry, knows exactly what his quest is, he is going to have to change. Unlike the summer he spent after book 4, furious and self-pitying because he felt left out and jealous, the summer he spends after book 5/before book 6 may be the chance for him to digest all of the information Dumbledore gave him, to reconsider his behavior toward Dumbledore (and Snape), and to reconsider his impetuousness. I think- -and hope--that book 6 is about Harry's testing and formation as hero, prior to embarking upon his quest. jujube (who can post without guilt now that she's done packing) From cherishedvette at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 03:56:08 2004 From: cherishedvette at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:56:08 -0000 Subject: Two Questions about POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94914 Steffy: > 2. The twins and Percy are taking their O.W.L.S and N.E.W.T's > respectively during POA, and at the end of the book (US edition, > paperback page 430) we find out that they have their results! So, > why do we have to wait all summer for Harry to find out the results > of his OWLS during OOTP!! Just a FLINT?? Or did the rules change, > I wonder? > Karen: I just started re-reading COS and noticed that Percy did not get his O.W.L. results back until the beginning of August. So I would say that it is POA that has the FLINT. I just think JKR just wanted to make us wait to see how good or bad everyone did. Karen From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 04:12:40 2004 From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (Vickey) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 20:12:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040402041240.95555.qmail@web14808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94915 ghinghapuss wrote: >>Lucius is a powerful, influential man and there is no way the Wizangamot could get away with sending to Azkaban without a trial.<< Vickey: Why not? The Black family was a powerful family. Potrayed to be wealthy and influential, yet they sent Sirius to Azkaban without a trial...why wouldn't they do the same for our slippery friend Lucius? Vickey - Sirius, Severus, Remus...*sigh* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cerebella316 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 05:28:53 2004 From: cerebella316 at yahoo.com (cerebella316) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 05:28:53 -0000 Subject: Luna's importance to the series. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94916 Seren wrote: I posted this at MNI; am I crazy, or does this make sense? The Sorting Hat has spoken of the need for inter-house unity. Now, traditionally, we know that Gryffindor is aligned with Hufflepuff; conversely, this means Ravenclaw is tradionally aligned with Slytherin. We know that at least Draco Malfoy, the archtypal Slytherin, doesn't look down on Ravenclaw... he says so to Harry in Madame Malkin's robe shop. In GoF, Rowling reinforces the idea that Hufflepuff is normally sided with Gryffindor. While Ravenclawers are not nessecarily all for Slytherin, they are placed side by side. Luna breaks this. Although we have hints of inter-house mingling (Ginny and Harry both see Ravenclaws,) Luna openly supports Gryffindor. And she, like Harry (and Hermione, who could have ended up a Ravenclaw,) is unique to their house. Harry, because he could have fit into all of the houses. Luna is unique to her house because it is built on logic and intelligence, and yet she believes in the unbelievable. She calmly ignores the nasty behaviour people from her house shows her, and participates in the Battle of the Department of Mysteries. She also helps Harry through his pain of losing Sirius - for the first time, a character from another house shows true alignment with Harry, and a Gryffindor. Luna, moreso than the DA, is the first step to inter-house unity. Bella responds: No Seren, you're not crazy! I agree with you that Luna is important. But it's not so much that she is more important than the DA. The DA is the biggest thing toward house unity so far--bigger than Luna. But Luna *is* the first person from another house that the Trio have let penetrate their little circle. Really, for a while, we only saw the Trio expand to Fred and George and Ginny, and sometimes Percy and Neville, before now--and they were all Gryffindors! But now Luna, the Ravenclaw, has become part of the action. She, in a way, knows of the Order (or at least of the people who come to Harry's rescue when he needs it). She knows Harry was in contact with Sirius and that Sirius is now dead. She knows of a prophecy about Harry. So...Luna is a part of things now--the first person from another house to be (even if she may have happened to wander blindly into it all). Are there any from other houses that could become part of the group? Ernie? Susan? A Slytherin? I guess we'll have to wait and see! ~Bella From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 03:33:11 2004 From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (Vickey) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 19:33:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's and LV's boggarts (Was: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040402033311.57305.qmail@web14802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94917 justcarol67 wrote: >Carol, who wonders if Harry will see Snape's boggart and rescue him from it ( don't think Snape would be grateful!)< Vickey: I am just going to comment on that sig line, because I can guarantee that Severus would most definitely NOT be grateful if Harry rescued him from his boggart. Remember that Dumbledore tells Harry that James had done something that Severus could never forgive him for...save his life. If Harry were to repeat this, Severus would probably go off the deep end...He's worked so hard to keep Harry alive...I think for dual reasons, 1st so that there would be a chance to truly destroy Voldy and 2nd so that he could feel like he repaid James therefore allowing him to go back to hating James without any guilt. If Harry were to save him, I doubt that he'd be able to handle it. Vickey - a huge Snape fan who realizes he has faults...but loves him anyway --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Apr 2 06:43:43 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 06:43:43 -0000 Subject: Underage magic enforcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94918 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: Geoff: > > Interesting thought just crossed my mind when I read this. OK, so (1) > > there was wandless magic involved and (2) Harry was the fall guy. > > > > However, hasn't it been suggested that house elves have magic of > > their own (possessing the ability to apparate where no man has > > apparated before for instance). Shouldn't therefore the Ministry be > > able to distinguish magic originating from an elf? Carol: > > Evidently not. Remember my post(s) pointing out that the note from > Mafalda Hopkirk was written in the passive voice: "A hover charm *was > performed*"? The MoM apparently assumed that it was performed by the > only known wizard in the area, but they didn't accuse him straight out > as they did in OoP. Which is how we got onto the wand vs. wandless > magic aspect of Underage Magic in various threads awhile back. > Possibly those posts were among the thousand or so that were written > while you were away from the list. . . . Geoff: I haven't been away from the list..... I did in fact reply to one of your posts and commented on the use of the passive tense; this can be a very subtle way of expressing support or otherwise. But that doesn't really cover the question of whodunnit. It merely seemed to say, " We think you did it, HP, but we ain't quite sure!" From liliana at worldonline.nl Fri Apr 2 08:25:57 2004 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 08:25:57 -0000 Subject: Lupin staring (was No one was to blame... I think) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94919 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > > Pippin said: > > noticing just now that Lupin stares at Black "so intently it seemed > > he was trying to read his mind." --ah, hah! Legilimency! > > Marianne: > > He stares at Sirius for a long time in the kitchen scene in OoP, too, > as Sirius is about to give Harry some information on what the Order > is up to. It doesn't seem as if they two are staring eye-to-eye, but > Lupin is certainly very focused on Sirius for a few pages. > > Marianne Lilian piping in for a small snippet: That would also explain why Lupin calls Snape such an excellent occlumens! If he is good at legilimency, but cannot manage to glean truth/lies from Snape's mind (doing my utmost best not to call it mind-reading ) then Snape has to be really good at occlumency, in Lupin's opinion. Lilian From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 2 09:00:31 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 09:00:31 -0000 Subject: A simple-minded question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94920 All my questions seem to be basically simple-minded (I am a simple soul). Please don't despise me, but can I beg your indulgence to answer this one: Does Harry owe a life-debt to Snape for saving his life in the first book? Sylvia (full of admiration for the depth of other posters' knowledge of HP) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 09:00:12 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 09:00:12 -0000 Subject: Re-reading CoS : questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94921 JoAnna wrote: > > Notice I said that the *guards* at Azkaban would notice, not > > that the Dementors would notice. I'm sure there are wizard > > guards at Azkaban now that the Dementors are gone, and I'm sure > > those wizard guards would notice if Lucius wasn't where he was > > supposed to be. Joe in SoFla answered : > That seems plausible. But...do we have anything to lead us to > believe that? Del adds : Nope we don't. Moreover, we're talking about rich, influent *Lucius Malfoy* here. So if the guards are Ministry-appointed wizards, there's no doubt a few of them could have been corrupted to let Malfoy escape. I'm sure Fudge wasn't the only one Malfoy showered with gold. Del From liliana at worldonline.nl Fri Apr 2 09:21:07 2004 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 09:21:07 -0000 Subject: Peter kiling Cedric (Was: JKR's "small thing" in CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94922 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: >Carol: > Where was I? Oh, yes. Has anyone besides me noticed that both > Dumbledore and Harry alwasys say that Voldemort murdered Cedric? > Technically, this statement is not quite true. Voldemort, a > baby-shaped monster wrapped in a cloak, gave the order, but Wormtail pointed the wand and spoke the words that actually killed him. In > other words, he committed murder, orders or no orders. Yet it's as if, > in DD's and Harry's view, Wormtail is only an instrument like the wand > and bears no share of the blame. >Carol: > Is anyone besides me bothered by this? or can you "sort it out" for me so I find it less > disturbing? Anybody? Me (Lilian): I have not thought about it before, but now you bring up the point... Wormtail (or Peter Pettigrew rather) is believed to be dead. He was blown up by Sirius, together with a lot of Muggles. He received the Order of Merlin posthumously and all his mother got was his one finger. Only DD, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Lupin and Sirius know that this is not the truth, but the rest of the WW do not. LV on the other hand, is believed by some in the WW to be gone forever, but not by all. If DD would have said, although more accurately, that it was Peter Pettigrew who actually killed Cedric, no one in the WW would have believed DD. Claiming that it is LV (and who is indirectly responsible)will put some in the WW at their guard and possibly convince some doubters. Lilian From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 09:43:02 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 09:43:02 -0000 Subject: Re-reading CoS : questions, and more about Penny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94923 > Carol: > One slight problem: Lucius is in Azkaban now and Snape is at > Hogwarts. They can't be the same person. Del : Not exactly. We do not *know* that Lucius is indeed in Akaban, we have only been *told* so. Harry and Draco believe it, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. Carol : > Besides, that would make Snape Draco's father and Draco clearly > regards them as different people. Del : Once again, it's a matter of knowing vs believing. The fact that Draco *believes* that his dad isn't Snape, doesn't mean it's true. Maybe he just doesn't know better. Honestly, if I were Lucius/Snape, I wouldn't have told Draco, I would keep it secret from him. It would be way too dangerous to have a kid know that kind of secret. Carol : > And would rich, snooty Lucius lower himself to teach Potions and > grade homework? Del : I can't answer that if I don't know how things happened. I do believe that originally Snape and Malfoy were two different beings. I'm just wondering if one of them didn't get killed and the other is filling in while still keeping his real identity. Snape, for example, would have every reason to do that : it would allow him to spy on LV and his DEs, while keeping in contact with DD. And just for fun, I can even throw a love interest in the whole thing :-) : maybe Snape was in love with Narcissa, but Lucius got to marry her, gave her a son, and got killed somehow. But for whatever reason Narcissa couldn't re-marry with Snape, so Snape took Lucius's place so they could be together. I tell you, I can have a sick imagination sometimes :-) Prove me wrong though ;-) > Carol: > I don't know. I've raised several queries regarding Penny and how > much she knows about her own petrification, but I haven't received > a single response. I don't think she was a bad guy and > her "excuse" for wandering the corridors would be that she's a > prefect and it was her duty. Maybe, like Percy, she thought that > Prefects would be immune from the attacks. Del : I don't think Penny is a bad gal either. But she for sure wasn't on duty when Harry and Ron met her during the Christmas holidays. They later suppose she had been snogging with Percy, but is that true ? I have strong doubts about that, especially since I noticed yesterday evening that JKR tried to fool us on the number of students who stayed for the Christmas holidays that year. If I remember correctly, in PS/SS and PoA, very few students stay over, so few in fact that everyone ends up eating together at the same table, right ? But in CoS, they all eat at their own House table, without seeming to notice that Penny is alone at her Ravenclaw table : are there other Ravenclaws with her ? We know for sure that there are Slytherins other than Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, because when Draco, Harry and Ron get in the Slytherin common room, there are students already there. How does that reconcile with the fact that "there was almost a stampede to book seats on the Hogwarts Express so that students could go home for Christmas" because of the general panic (p. 227) ? I feel like JKR is trying to fool us into thinking that there's nothing special about one more student being there, when in fact it's highly abnormal. Carol : > But I still want to know what she know (if anything) about Diary! > Tom, and how Percy could possibly think that LV isn't back in some > form when both Penny and Ginny were Tom Riddle's victims. > > Maybe Tom Riddle *isn't* Voldemort, just as the shadow that comes > out of LV's wand *isn't* Cedric, and destroying Diary!Tom (in > Percy's view) has nothing to do with the return of the *real* > Voldemort? In any case, LV himself doesn't seem to know about the > basilisk incident, or at least he doesn't mention it in the > graveyard scene. What's up? any ideas? Del : In my idea, Diary!Tom is like a clone of 16-year-old Tom. Tom recorded a copy of himself in that Diary, but from then on, Diary! Tom was completely separated from his creator. The real Tom wouldn't know what would happen to his Diary!Clone, and vice-versa. So what you say Percy thinks is right : destroying Diary!Tom wouldn't influence in the least the real LV. Just like killing LV wouldn't destroy the Diary. And it's logical LV doesn't mention the Diary in GoF, because most likely he doesn't even know his clone has been reactivated : he was in Albania when those things happened, and I don't think Wormtail knew a lot about the Diary. A bit probably, but not all that happened. Del From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 2 10:08:00 2004 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 10:08:00 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94924 "jmgarciaiii" wrote: SNIPPED ....although Hermione has shown a weakness for handsomeness, and HP has not really been described as *handsome.* Didn't Mrs. Weasley call him just that in Ootp? (sorry, I really can't remember the page, or chapter for that matter, but I think they were in the kitchen at the time, and she was going on about how his hair had gotten rather long...Harry was taken aback because he thought she was making another attempt to convince *Bill* to cut his hair....) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 10:13:09 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 10:13:09 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Crucio. W as: Bellatrix and the Crucio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94925 Jason quoted JKR who said: > 'They are very keen to know whom I'm going to kill. Very, very, > very keen. That fascinates me. I think I understand why. They are > all really worried about Ron. They've seen so many films where the > main character's best friend died [that] I think they have become > incredibly wise and know the storyteller's tricks, basically. They > know that if Ron died, *Harry would have such a grudge, that it > would make it very personal.* (emphasis Jason) And then Jason commented : > Enough of a grudge to really cause some pain? Del : Obviously not, because it didn't work when Bellatrix killed Sirius, so I see no reason why it would have changed anything if she had killed Ron or Hermione. I wrote a post that touched that subject recently, here is the relevant excerpt : > OotP (US), Ch. 36, p. 810 > 'Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?' she > yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. 'You need to mean > them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain ? to enjoy it ? > righteous anger won't hurt me for long ? I'll show you how it is > done, shall I? I'll give you a lesson ? ' Please notice that she doesn't say that righteous anger can't make the Curse work : it just won't make it last for long. And the reason for it is simple : righteous anger seeks punishment and only punishment. Once the punishment is attained, righteous anger dies. It's just like when my kid annoys me a bit too much, and I yell at him in "righteous anger", and he starts crying. For a few fleeting seconds, I'm deeply satisfied (serves you well), but then my anger subsides because the punishment is attained, and I'm left with my baby crying. What I feel then is everything from pain to remorse, but certainly not anger, and most definitely not a further desire to hurt him !! In order to keep the Curse working, you have to want to make people suffer *for no fault of theirs at all and even though they are in pain* ! In order to make Crucio work, you have to get to the point that you can *enjoy* torturing anyone *for a prolonged time without any reason at all*. Harry hasn't done anything like that at all. He never ever came up to Ron and start telling him out of the blue how bad he is at Quidditch and then how ridiculous he looked in his dress robes at the Yule Ball and then how much money there's in Harry's vault but Harry will never give it to Ron, all the while watching Ron go from hurt to shame to pain to pleading Harry to please please stop ! (As for Hermione, Harry had an easy way to hurt her : tell her that Dobby collected her hats. He never did it.) Jason : > And I was thinking, I'm absolutely positive DD could use crucio to > effect. The way I see it learning to use crucio might be like > learning the summoning charm. At first it takes concentration and > real focus, but after years of practice and learned focus it > becomes second nature. Del : I don't think you realise what you're saying :-) Oh yes, it would "only" require some focus and concentration to learn Crucio. You would just have to focus enough to keep your victim's pain and pleading from touching you, and you would have to concentrate on hurting them again. You can learn that kind of behaviour, a lot of people do (abusive parents, torturers whether for legal purposes or not, etc ), but we generally do NOT consider that capacity as a *desirable* trait... And no I don't think DD could Crucio anyone. From his duel with LV at the end of OoP, it's quite obvious that he still has some kind of compassion for Tom Riddle. And compassion just cannot go along with Cruciating people. Jason : > Now, no doubt Crucio would still require a little effort, I would > think full-grown wizards (esp DEs like Fake!Moody could manage it > without needing to concentrate too hard.) Seems to me that a full > grown Harry could manage it without being a horrible person inside. Del : This is akin to saying that you think a full grown Harry could manage to go and beat up and torture and mutilate any *innocent* passer-by without being a horrible person inside. I disagree with you, needless to say :-) > Jason, who thinks he would have Expelliarmussed Bellatrix first > off and followed up with a Petrificus Totalus and then taken a > nice leisure in Crucio! Del : It wouldn't have changed anything. As Bellatrix says, Harry doesn't have enough sadism in him to make the Crucio really work. Del, who is puzzled by Imperioed Viktor Cruciating Cedric, but supposes that the necessary sadism came from Crouch!Moody through the Imperius link. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Apr 2 10:15:52 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 10:15:52 -0000 Subject: No one was to blame... I think. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94926 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > > Does look a bit as if Remus was so gobsmacked by what he > saw that he took off without thinking everything through....<< Pippin: > So gobsmacked he takes off, forgetting about his potion, > forgetting about the full moon, forgetting to de-activate the map, > and yet when he gets to the Shack he's "remarkably calm"? One > way or another, he's a terrific actor. Geoff: "The door of the room burst open in a shower of red sparks and Hrry wheeled around as Professor Lupin came hurtling into the room, his face bloodless, his wand raised and ready. His eyes flickered over Ron, lying on the floor, over Hermione, cowering next to the door, to Harry, standing there with his wand covering Black and then to Black himself, crumpled and bleeding at Harry's feet. 'Expelliarmus!' Lupin shouted.... ...Then Lupin spoke in an odd voice, a voice that /shook with suppressed emotion/...." (POA "Cat, Rat and Dog" p.252 UK edition) Sounds a bit worked up, doesn't he? He doesn't exhibit the appearance of "remarkable calm" until soem minutes later when Hermione accuses him of trying to get Black into the castle, of wanting to kill Harry and being a werewolf. (p.253) From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Apr 2 10:24:35 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 10:24:35 -0000 Subject: feelings...nothing more than feelings... (was: Re: Harry's disposition ) In-Reply-To: <002401c41821$718a6860$7f83f343@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94927 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" wrote: > Joe in SoFla: > >In a sense, his impetuousness blinded him and because he didn't stop > >to remember the 2-way mirror, it might be said he contributed to > >Sirius' death. > Kimberly: > I think that for me, that clears up the question of "why didn't Harry stop and use the mirror ?". He was determined from first receiving the package that he wasn't going to use it. I still think he could have used the mirror but at least that gives me an insight as to why he didn't. It was reckless and impetuous, yes, but maybe this can shed some wandlight behind him jumping off and running to the MoM the way he did. Geoff: Allow me to disagree with you. This topic was discussed a long time ago. To save me re-typing, I have pasted below a part reply which I wrote in message 73882: Two reasons. First, from OOTP Chapter 24 where Harry and the others are leaving to get the Knight Bus: (Sirius) "I want you to take this, he said quietly,thrusting a badly wrapped package ....... into Harry's hands. "What is it?" Harry asked. "A way of letting me know .... No, don't open it in here...."said Sirius ...... "OK", said Harry, stowing the package away ..... but he knew he would never use it .... It would not be he,Harry, who lured Sirius from his place of safety," (OOTP "Occlumency" p.463 UK edition) ie HP didn't want to compromise SB's safety. So we agree up to there. Second, from the last chapter: "Harry ..... noticed a badly wrapped package lying in a corner of it (his trunk). He could not think what it was doing there ..... He realised what it was within seconds. Sirius had given it to him inside the front door of number twelve Grimmauld Place." (OOTP "The Second War BEgins" p.755 UK edition) ie Harry had completely forgotten about it. It had been given at a time when everybody was rushing around in ever decreasing circles getting ready. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Apr 2 11:00:07 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 11:00:07 -0000 Subject: Peter kiling Cedric (Was: JKR's "small thing" in CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94928 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > -Jen Snyder wrote: > It also occured to me that Wormtail uses Voldemort's wand to > kill Cedric, with no appreciable problems, so I guess there probably > isn't any big deal with someone using another's wand...oh, well, the > search for clues continues unabated! > Carol wrote: snip<<< > > I understand all this, but I'm still bothered by it. In a (Muggle) > court of law, I suppose, both LV and Wormtail would be guilty, but > still: Voldemort murdered Cedric is a half-truth. Wormtail murdered > Cedric under Voldemort's orders is the full truth. Is anyone besides > me bothered by this? or can you "sort it out" for me so I find it less > disturbing? Anybody? > Potioncat: I may be missiong the point of Jen's question, but I understood that another wizard's wand wouldn't work as well, but would work. Carol, I never noticed that, but you're right. If being specific, Wormtail is the murderer. I think legally, both were guilty of murder. Emotionally, it's correct to say that LV murdered him. Certainly, Wormtail wouldn't have killed him without the order. And, DD has never been shy about wording things to his own purpose. Potioncat From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Apr 2 11:00:54 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 11:00:54 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > The evidence against Lucius Malfoy is circumstantial and witnessed by > people in chaos. An effective Lawyer could not only get Lucius off, > but also make him look like a hero. Now wouldn't that be fun? > Lawyers. Ah, well - into every life a little rain must fall. Though we haven't seen any evidence that they exist in the WW; perhaps with concepts like 'magical contracts' they are surplus to requirements. Alternatively the WW could have taken Pistol's vision to heart - "First thing we do...." The last thing Lucius would want is to be considered a hero, or at least not yet. Heroes are in the public eye; people expect them to *do* things when trouble looms. Not that Mafoy gives a damn about what the public thinks - to him the great unwashed is of no interest or importance whatsoever, IMO. He's the type that would believe in Divine Right of Kings and he thinks himself as of Royal blood. I've a feeling that any trial would be a white-wash anyway. Who will be preferring the charges? - Fudge. With Malfoy's gold still jingling in his pocket and a Wizengamot stuffed with his pals. DD is back in his seat, but throughout the series he has seemed remarkably reluctant to punish anyone for anything, and if Lucius is the source of Voldy information he'll want him back on the job as soon as possible. Additionally, DD was involved in the fight at the Ministry - can he judge a case in which he is a participant? It all gets very iffy, particularly when Sirius enters the picture. No, I'd expect a sudden epidemic of amnesia and for the likely out-come to feature Fudge as fall-guy for failing to keep Azkaban secure and for not controlling his Aurors. No doubt Malfoy has some dirt on him anyway, to be revealed if necessary, so a few minimal sentences handed out perhaps, the escapees sent back to the slammer and it'll all be swept under the carpet. As a final fall-back Lucius et al could always claim that they'd been Imperio'd by Voldy or Bella. Kneasy From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 11:17:47 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 11:17:47 -0000 Subject: Re-reading COS : questions In-Reply-To: <000c01c41833$e6d47ae0$871d0f0a@bre.uop.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94930 I, Del, asked : > 1.And in a world where Metamorphagi (?) exist, I have to ask : > have we ever seen Malfoy and Snape together ? Or have we ever seen > one when we know for sure where the other is ? Aesha Williams answered : > I think we have- during any Potions class. I'm sure they've > mentioned Snape making some remark about a Gryffindor and Draco > smirking or something at Snape's remark. Even if they hadn't... I > don't know, I think that it would be hard for a teacher to teach a > class and be a student in the class at the same time. Del goes ooops ! My mistake, Aesha, I wasn't clear enough on that one. I meant Malfoy Sr, *Lucius*, not Draco. Aesha : > Also, unless it's in JKR's notes on the student body, I'm not > sure why you assume Penelope is muggle born. Del : Hmm, I'm afraid my source is even better than that :-) It's in the book, see : p.281, UK paperback ed, Fudge says : "Very bad business. Had to come. Four attacks on Muggle-borns. Things've gone far enough. Ministry's got to act.' Four Muggle-borns, that would be Colin, Justin, Hermione and Penelope. And neither Hagrid nor DD corrected him. Aesha : > Well, are non purebloods just those who are muggle born or the > child of a muggle and a witch/wizard? Perhaps someone who is > a 'halfblood' would still be considered pureblood if they're a > magical creature. I don't know about that, though. Del : Considering the way Umbridge treats the half-humans, I seriously doubt anyone would consider them pure-bloods. I'm almost absolutely sure that 'pure-blood' means 'child of a witch and a wizard'. Aesha : > I may just be dense, but I just assumed that it was the basilisk > that came into the bathroom, not that Tom had. Hissing doesn't > really sound particularly masculine or feminine to me; I think > that if the snake were hissing, she might have assumed it was a > boy- because who expects a huge deadly snake to sneak up on them > in the bathroom? Del : As you say, hissing doesn't sound particularly masculine or feminine. But Myrtle was absolutely positive that it was a boy who had spoken : that's even why she stopped wallowing in her misery, because it was replaced with indignation, so she must have been sure of her fact. If she hadn't been so sure it was a boy, she would more readily have assumed it was Olive Hornby who had come in and who was making strange sounds just to tease her. Del From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Apr 2 11:19:17 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 11:19:17 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Crucio. W as: Bellatrix and the Crucio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > It wouldn't have changed anything. As Bellatrix says, Harry doesn't > have enough sadism in him to make the Crucio really work. > > Del, who is puzzled by Imperioed Viktor Cruciating Cedric, but > supposes that the necessary sadism came from Crouch!Moody through > the Imperius link. There's a small but maybe important difference between sadism and having the concentrated intent to cast a spell that causes pain. It might be misleading to take Bella's words at face value; she was, after all in the middle of a fight with an inexperienced wizard who had never tried a Crucio! before. He might get lucky and make it work, but why not put doubts in his mind to distract him? Not that there was much need - how often has Harry got a spell to work properly first time? Unlike Harry, Krum went to a school that is renowned for concentrating on Dark Magic. He is also in his final year(s) at school. It's no surprise that he could Crucio! Cedric. Remember that Crouch!Moody tells Harry's class that they are being shown the Forbidden Curses early - that normally they would have to wait until their sixth year before they saw them demonstrated. This means that it was a part of the curriculum - does that make the teacher that performs the demonstration a sadist? Kneasy From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 11:39:34 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 11:39:34 -0000 Subject: Wizards and Fickle Fame? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chelle" wrote: > I find it really strange that in book 2 Lockhart is the most popular > wizard around and in the 5th book the nurse hardly knows anything of > his fame. > Are the healers supposed to be that busy they're segregated, or is > fame really that fickle? > > ~ Chelle > Who here remembers Milli Vanilli? Ginger: I read it that she did know of his fame. Her words to the kids were "He was rather well known a few years ago; we very much hope that this liking for giving autographs is a sign that his memory might be coming back a little bit." She probably knew he was a fraud. I'm sure most of the staff had figured it out themselves. Not knowing the relationship between him and the kids, she may not have wanted to let on too much. As for Milli Vanilli- see my soon to be published works :) Ginger, who loves Milli Vanilli From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 12:01:31 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:01:31 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94933 Hello all ! The recent threads about the Cruciatus Curse have gotten me more and more confused. I've been arguing that using the Cruciatus curse requires some kind of sadism, but quite a few people disagree. So now I'm wondering : how do the Unforgivables work and why are they they called so ? Do they work like any other curse, or do they require some evil intent ? Why give them such a grand name as Unforgivable ? I'm really bothered by that. Unforgivable implies that there's no redemption possible. Why is that so ? In most Western societies, even murder can be "redeemed" : whoever has purged their jail sentence for murder is supposed to have been "purified" of it, for lack of a better term. They can go back to society, and live a "normal" life. So why does the WW, which is usually notably more lenient on moral matters than the Real World, think that those 3 Curses are Unforgivable ? I agree that it's not nice to force someone to do something, or to cause them pain, but isn't it a bit too much to go as far as calling those things unforgivable ?? I used to think that they were called Unforgivable because of the *intent* of the curser : I thought the successful use of one of them was a sure sign of an irremediably evil heart. But as some have pointed out, what about the teachers who demonstrate the UC to their students ? What about the Aurors who use them on bad guys ? Does the fact that they manage to perform them signal that their hearts have turned irremediably evil, and if so, should they still be allowed to teach/chase criminals ? I just don't get it. If anyone can perform an Imperio just like an Accio, then I don't see why Imperio should be deemed Unforgivable. Not nice yes, forbidden yes, but unforgivable no. On the other hand, if Imperio denotes an irremediably evil heart, then I don't understand how anyone can be allowed to use them under whatever circumstances, much less encouraged as the Aurors obviously were during VW1. Del, mightily confused. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 12:08:40 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:08:40 -0000 Subject: Filk: Blame it on the Train Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94934 Blame it on the Train based on Blame it on the Rain by Milli Vanilli. To Chelle and AmyC Scene: CoS. Snape's office. Snape has just left to get McG, who, as he told Ron and Harry, has the power to expell them. Ron turns to Harry and sings: Ron: We knew the train was leaving. We gave a good try (good try) To barrel through the barrier To reach the other side. Now we wished That we had made it (made it) And just rode it to the school. We had to fly away. Now we're gonna get the blame. Gotta blame it on something- Gotta blame it on something. Blame it on the train (train) Blame it on the car (car) Whatever you do, just don't blame me and you Blame it on the train, yeah, yeah. You can blame it on the train. ooh.... Harry: We can't, we can't, we can't, blame the train. We can't, we can't, we can't, blame the train. Yeah, yeah, We could say we are sorry. We could say we were wrong. Ron: But if we're to go and do that, no, no Snape would be right all along. Harry: We could say that we were desp'rate (desp'rate) To get back here to our school. We wanted back so bad That we'll have to take the blame. Ron: Gotta blame it on something- Gotta blame it on something. Blame it on the train that was bound for Hogwarts. Blame it on the car that took to flight. Whatever you do- just don't blame me and you Blame it on the train, yeah, yeah. You can blame it on the train Cuz the train can't fly And the train ain't here. You got to blame it on something. Blame it on the train Blame it on the car Whatever you do- just don't blame me and you Blame it on the train, yeah, yeah (repeat as necessary) Ginger, who was so taken in by the ADMIN that she actually thought of writing an encoded filk. This one isn't it. From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 06:05:07 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 06:05:07 -0000 Subject: How might Hagrid come into play? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94935 Hi... So, in his _Hidden Key to Harry Potter_, John Granger explains about the stages of alchemy and how we've got Albus as white, Sirius as black, and how Rubeus means red so we should expect Hagrid to figure importantly upcoming. Last night I read something that pointed out how the Philosopher's Stone was a deep red, and this reminded me of how Robbie Coltrane said that JKR had given him info on Hagrid's background that we didn't know yet. Any ideas what we might find out or what might happen that would have Hagrid playing an important part in the purification of Harry's soul or the development of his psyche into an enlightened philosopher's stone, or whatnot? I wonder what went on with Hagrid Senior? A.J. P.S., Granger also points out that the key helping ingredients sulfur (Ron) and mercury (Hermione) were known as the 'quarreling couple,' and had theories on Luna's upcoming importance... From greatraven at hotmail.com Fri Apr 2 12:55:53 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:55:53 -0000 Subject: Stepping even further into the Quagmire... In-Reply-To: <003201c41871$875237e0$05030f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" wrote: >Remember, please that these are *opinions*. More importantly, they are opinions about fictional characters, so although some of the characters I (like the rest of you) would not tolerate (or at least not tolerate certain actions from them) should I meet them, as literary characters, I can appreaciate them from a slightly different angle and in a different light then I would from real people. I suppose that I should make that clear...they aren't real, so although I enjoy the books, laugh and cry and curse and cheer just like other readers....I don't expect a fully 'real world' experince, so I make allowances that would not be very cool otherwise in my eyes if this were all real. > > > > *ALL* of these characters have both good points and bad. Some are obvious, some not so much. All of them have done good things (individual motives set aside--they all really *have* done good things), all of them have done questionable things, and all of them have done truly abominable things. Just as we'll each pick a few characters to defend (often at the exspence of another), even if we happen to like *all* of them... > > Well...at least for a few exceptions...most of which are the likes of Umbridge, Crouch, DE, Voldy himself, ect...^^; > What a fascinating post! I haven't been following this thread, so excuse me. I've just snipped a couple of bits here, because it's rather long, but anyway ... I definitely agree that there are people we love in fiction we wouldn't much like in real life. As I may have mentioned before, I used to watch a British SF show called Blake's 7, in which the most popular character was very Snape-like, except he was good-looking (he wore black, too, for the second half of the series). We all drooled over Avon and wrote Mary Sue tales for him and wept for his agony ... but quite honestly, I wouldn't have wanted him for a boyfriend in real life and certainly not for a boss! And characters who are merely amusingly nasty in HP, such as Umbridge, can be truly horrible in real life and not at all amusing. I am currently working with a real-life Umbridge and dearly wish for some handy centaurs. I'd rather look at the Marauders and Snape as students rather than as adults, because I work in the school system. I think if they went to my school, I would dislike all of them. I have no doubt Sirius, James and Remus (well, maybe I'd like Remus, but I wouldn't care for the company he kept) would be just as popular as they are at Hogwarts, but I don't like bullies, I don't care what their reasons. And at my school, certainly, they would have been given a good talking-to, and saying, "Severus started it!" wouldn't be considered an acceptable excuse. He, too, would be taken aside for a discussion. Parents would be called in. And speaking of parents, I agree with you there, too. Don't they have parent-teacher nights at Hogwarts? If they did, Neville's Gran would have had some serious discussions, yes, and Umbridge would never have got away with what she did. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Apr 2 12:56:06 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:56:06 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94937 Del wrote: > The recent threads about the Cruciatus Curse have gotten me more and > more confused. I've been arguing that using the Cruciatus curse > requires some kind of sadism, but quite a few people disagree. So > now I'm wondering : how do the Unforgivables work and why are they > they called so ? > > Do they work like any other curse, or do they require some evil > intent ? > > Why give them such a grand name as Unforgivable ? Potioncat wrote: I thought the "Unforgivable" referred to the legal status. That is, no legal excuse for using it therefore automatic sentencing. Except when Aurors were allowed to use it on outlaws. This ties in with my own confusion about the definition of Dark Arts. While the WW may be clear on them, I am not. Potioncat From the_bad_gene at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 11:26:12 2004 From: the_bad_gene at yahoo.com (Tim Cuthbertson) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 03:26:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Snape and Lucius -- same person? (was Re: Re-reading CoS : questions, and more about Penny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040402112612.35011.qmail@web60603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94938 Del : > I do believe that originally Snape and Malfoy were two different > beings. I'm just wondering if one of them didn't get killed and > the other is filling in while still keeping his real identity. > Snape, for example, would have every reason to do that: it would > allow him to spy on LV and his DEs, while keeping in contact with > DD. But, how can Lucius and Snape be the same person? They may not have been seen together in the books but in second film they watch the Quidditch match together!! You may say that this proves nothing, but JKR has forced certain scenes to be put into the films (eg Voldy killing HP mother in Godric's Hollow). If Snape and Lucius were the same person, she would never have allowed this!! Tim From greatraven at hotmail.com Fri Apr 2 12:58:56 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:58:56 -0000 Subject: A simple-minded question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94939 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > All my questions seem to be basically simple-minded (I am a simple > soul). Please don't despise me, but can I beg your indulgence to > answer this one: Does Harry owe a life-debt to Snape for saving his > life in the first book? > Sylvia (full of admiration for the depth of other posters' knowledge > of HP) This probably depends on the boy himself, but as I recall from the book, Snape saved his life as a point of honour - it was payment of a debt to James for saving his own life. Frankly, I doubt he would have let him die anyway, but that was the reason given. Sue B From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 13:10:34 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 13:10:34 -0000 Subject: No one was to blame... I think. In-Reply-To: <99.450f91a1.2d9e5670@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94940 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Batchevra at a... wrote: > Page 252, POA UK version. > > Then Lupin spoke, in an odd voice, a voice that shook with some supressed > emotion. "Where is he, Sirius?" I'm going to deviate somewhat from the tenor of this thread to comment on something which struck me about Lupin from the above passage. It seems to me that while he (Lupin) does appear rattled, he also appears equally desirous to master himself. In fact, I would say he can "maintain an even strain" better than any other denizen of the WW, with the possible exception of DD. Discuss. -Joe in SoFla From greatraven at hotmail.com Fri Apr 2 13:16:17 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 13:16:17 -0000 Subject: Being an animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94941 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amycrn4230" wrote: > This is my first post, so hello all... > > > Here is my question...In the chat with JKR recently she says that a > person who studies to be an animagus cannot choose what they are to > become, and in the PoA, I got the impression that the boys picked > their animals in order to be big enough to "control" the werewolf > (Remus)???...and my 2nd question is this...how did a stag fit in that > tiny passageway to the shrieking shack? (p. 337 American Ed. "They > moved as fast as they could, bent almost double...") > > Thanks for letting me lurk...these discussions are most enlightening! > > AmyC Well, it's JKR's universe, she should know, but I can't recall her sharing the information with us in the novels themselves. In such a huge lot of text, it's easy to have inconsistencies - and, yes, to forget such things as the size of the tunnel - and when you're a multi-million bestseller, the editor probably goes light on your work. The boys' animals certainly seem to suit their personalities - James the one who charges right in, Sirius the dog - aggressive, but loyal, Peter the rat - he was,after all, the smallest of them. And think how useful being a beetle is to Rita Skeeter - how on earth could a tabloid dirt-digger listen in on conversations if she was, say, an elephant animagus? :-) Given that it would have been a lot of work to become an animagus and then have to hide the fact, you'd want to be able to choose, wouldn't you? Sue B From liliana at worldonline.nl Fri Apr 2 13:36:02 2004 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 13:36:02 -0000 Subject: Focus on Dobby (was: What's he up to?) In-Reply-To: <362E1E7C-83DC-11D8-AC3F-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94942 @!#=**@!Yahoomort!@*##! (Censored version of actual comment of Lilian) Okay, so I have to do the bloo...erm...bally whole reply again. As this thought-provoking post has wandered of in various, well argumented already, directions already, I will merely focus on Dobby. IMO there are some other questions with regard to him that need explaining, apart from those raised in this post. >Kneasy wrote: > However, there is something in CoS that bears thinking about - and it > isn't small (except physically) and that concerns Dobby. > What I want to concentrate on is not what they are or how they are > treated but what Dobby actually *does*. There could be a very big clue lurking in there somewhere. > > Dobby himself tells Harry that House Elves are bound "...to serve > one house, one family." They're not interested in strangers, only > in serving the Family they are attached to. Yet Dobby adds that he > has "...come to protect Harry Potter, to warn him..." And once again Harry misses the chance to ask some pointed questions. Lilian: I couldn't agree more! >Kneasy: > So why is Dobby so very concerned about an apparent stranger? > Note that he is not at all concerned about any of Harry's friends > or colleagues and certainly not with Ginny, who is the front line > victim for Malfoy's little ploy with the diary. The rebirth of Tom > Riddle is of supreme indifference to him, it is only the involvement of, and the possible dangers to Harry that matters. > > So what's going on? > Lilian taking the opportunity to slip in some other questions about Dobby: 1) How did Dobby know where to find Harry? Further on Kneasy's ideas about Lucius, did Lucius obtain this information from the MoM? Or from Snape? Or is this part of the powerful magic of house-elves? Kreacher could find Narcissa because the Blacks and Malfoys associated with each other. If Sirius'mum visited her cousin, she could have taken Kreacher with her. 2) How did Dobby know that LV could be freely named before he (LV, I mean)changed his name?(CoS UK pb ed. pg 249) Ofcourse, Lucius is a DE but I do not consider LV's old name the kind of information he provides the members of his inner circle. And then there is DD's statement on that matter... (CoS UK pb ed. pg 242). What if Dobby already was a house-elf of Lucius Malfoy's father? Given Lucius age in OotP (41), his father could now have been 70+, so perhaps he was one of the intimate friends TR referred to (CoS UK pb ed. pg. 231). That would also explain (to me at least) how TR's diary fell into the hands of Lucius. It was not given by LV to one of his followers, but by TR to one of his best friends, Lucius' father, shortly after TR preserved his memory. Lucius simply inherited it. If that is the case, it seems to me that Dobby knows more about TR and as TR is not related to the Malfoys, IMO, Dobby could possibly tell Harry more about his arch-enemy. Lilian: I now imagine the prime-players in kind of dancing circle. LV trying to kill Harry, Lucius trying have LV killed, Snape trying to have Lucius killed, Harry having to "kill" one way or the other and Puppetmaster!Dumbledore pulling the strings. No miracle JKR said that Harry would run if he knew what was coming to him. Lilian From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 13:46:55 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 13:46:55 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lucius -- same person? (was Re: Re-reading CoS : questions, and more about Penny) In-Reply-To: <20040402112612.35011.qmail@web60603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94943 Tim Cuthbertson wrote: > But, how can Lucius and Snape be the same person? They may not > have been seen together in the books but in second film they watch > the Quidditch match together!! > > You may say that this proves nothing, but JKR has forced certain > scenes to be put into the films (eg Voldy killing HP mother in > Godric's Hollow). If Snape and Lucius were the same person, she > would never have allowed this!! Del : I know. This scene has bothered me for some time. I won't say that it proves nothing, I'll just say that I'm not sure this isn't a major movie-flint. I remember when I watched the movie the first time, I got mightily shocked (really !) when I saw Lucius attending the Quidditch match. My immediate reaction was "What *ever* is he doing here ?!? Parents never attend those games !" I know JKR kept a close watch on those movies, but I also know that she's just human. Misunderstandings happen all the time, and maybe she didn't catch that one in time. And in fact, that's precisely because of that scene that I'm asking for *canon* proof. Del From rredordead at aol.com Fri Apr 2 13:59:13 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 13:59:13 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Crucio. W as: Bellatrix and the Crucio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94944 > Kneasy wrote: > Remember that Crouch!Moody tells Harry's class that they are being > shown the Forbidden Curses early - that normally they would have to > wait until their sixth year before they saw them demonstrated. This > means that it was a part of the curriculum - does that make the > teacher that performs the demonstration a sadist? Mandy here: Yes, I think so. Or at least have a sadistic streak. To teach DADA you have to have a certain amount of experience dealing with the Dark Arts themselves, and that is going to require the ability to tap into and draw from the darker side of human nature. Sadism and masochism included. The challenge comes in having the ability to control these qualities and desires before they consume you and you fall to the 'dark side' forever. This is sounding so Star Wars. Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Fri Apr 2 14:03:45 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:03:45 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: <20040402041240.95555.qmail@web14808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94945 Mandy wrote: >Lucius is a powerful, influential man and there is no way > the Wizangamot could get away with sending to Azkaban without a trial. > Vickey: > Why not? The Black family was a powerful family. Potrayed to be wealthy and influential, yet they sent Sirius to Azkaban without a trial...why wouldn't they do the same for our slippery friend Lucius? Mandy here: No they wouldn't. I answered that question in post 94885 Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Fri Apr 2 14:23:23 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:23:23 -0000 Subject: Malfoy the Good Guy was: Wizard lawyers!? In-Reply-To: <20040402022025.36127.qmail@web60103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94946 > Mandy wrote: > Yes, Malfoy is in Azkaban. But I don't think he has had a trial >yet (snip). . . Not enough time for a trial as sensational at that >of Mr Lucius Malfoy's (snip). . . Lucius Malfoy would have to have a >trial of some sort to prove his guilt. After all he's don't nothing >wrong until the prosecution has proven his guilt. Unless, you are not innocent until proven guilty in the WW, which could also be possible. Lucius is a powerful, influential man and there is no way the Wizangamot could get away with sending to Azkaban without a trial. I believe what the Wizengamot is doing is to hold him in Azkaban until his trial date comes up. And a man of Malfoy's status would have many powerful Lawyers working to get him out on the wizard equivalent of bail, while they build his defense. > owlery2003 wrote: > As a counselor, I shudder to imagine the retainer to be asked of >Lucius. Of course, to arch-criminal types, it's not really an issue. >The galleons will flow into the scales of justice. Why would the WW be any different? What a character JKR will paint of a wizarding lawyer! Without Barty Crouch to serve as prosecutor, who will be the agressive Ministry rep? While the omnipotent readers can rest assured of Malfoy's complicity, the outcome of any "trial" is far from certain, especially given the Voldy-leaning members of the Wizengamot. At Harry's trial, how many members voted to find him guilty? (help with canon requested). In the interim, the "bail" question is another interesting aspect tba. We know Malfoy's got the Wiltshire mansion to pledge if it comes to that. Mandy again: Not to mention a fortune in Gringots I expect. I don't know what sort of legal system exists in the WW, but we do know that there are sometimes trials, and the prosecuted get to speak in their defense at them. GoF shows us this in the Pensive chapter. I think too many readers see Lucius Malfoy as a "bad guy" because that is how we, the reader, see him and we are privy to information the rest of the WW is not. But in the reality of the WW, Mr. Lucius Malfoy is far from bad. In fact perceived to be not only a good guy, but a great guy! He donates money to St. Mungos, is heavily involved in the running of the Ministry. He sat on the board of Governors for his son's school. Is there anyone else who has done more for his community? Of course we all know he's a slippery bastard out for his own gain, but the WW doesn't. He has them all fooled. That is where his power lies and there's absolutely no way the WW is going to let a man like that be thrown into prison with no expiation. It would undermine that whole system in the eyes of your average wizard, and smell of dictatorship. Malfoy will not only be out of prison within a couple of weeks but he'll have a cleared name and spotless reputation. Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Fri Apr 2 14:44:09 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:44:09 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94947 >mandy wrote: > The evidence against Lucius Malfoy is circumstantial and witnessed by people in chaos. An effective Lawyer could not only get Lucius off,but also make him look like a hero. Now wouldn't that be fun? Kneasey wrote: > > The last thing Lucius would want is to be considered a hero, or > at least not yet. Heroes are in the public eye; people expect them > to *do* things when trouble looms. Not that Mafoy gives a damn > about what the public thinks - to him the great unwashed is of no > interest or importance whatsoever, IMO. He's the type that would > believe in Divine Right of Kings and he thinks himself as of Royal > blood. > > I've a feeling that any trial would be a white-wash anyway. Who > will be preferring the charges? - Fudge. With Malfoy's gold still > jingling in his pocket and a Wizengamot stuffed with his pals. > DD is back in his seat, but throughout the series he has seemed > remarkably reluctant to punish anyone for anything, and if Lucius > is the source of Voldy information he'll want him back on the job > as soon as possible. > > Additionally, DD was involved in the fight at the Ministry - can > he judge a case in which he is a participant? It all gets very > iffy, particularly when Sirius enters the picture. No, I'd expect > a sudden epidemic of amnesia and for the likely out-come to > feature Fudge as fall-guy for failing to keep Azkaban secure > and for not controlling his Aurors. No doubt Malfoy has some > dirt on him anyway, to be revealed if necessary, so a few > minimal sentences handed out perhaps, the escapees sent back > to the slammer and it'll all be swept under the carpet. > > As a final fall-back Lucius et al could always claim that they'd > been Imperio'd by Voldy or Bella. Mandy here: So Malfoy gets off scot free? Without question imo. But do you think Malfoy would take the position of Minister for Magic if it were offered to him? I think he would. What has he been working for all his life but for the power to reign as King above all? It would put him in the position to take over as Supreme Leader when he deemed the time is right. War is looming, the WW is about to enter a state of ciaos and ripe for controlling, by the right man in the right position. Would it please LV? Could Malfoy convince him it's all for his (LV) benefit, whilst plotting to use Harry to destroy LV when the time is right? Malfoy's only stumbling block, and it a big one, is DD. But if the WW pushes DD into the background during all this, as they might because DD was instrumental in the MoM incident, Malfoy could assume power easily. But, could Malfoy ensure DD was taken out of the picture to keep himself secure in the position of Minister? Mandy. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Apr 2 14:45:48 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:45:48 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Crucio. W as: Bellatrix and the Crucio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94948 Kneasy wrote: > > Remember that Crouch!Moody tells Harry's class that they are being > shown the Forbidden Curses early - that normally they would have to > wait until their sixth year before they saw them demonstrated. This > means that it was a part of the curriculum - does that make the > teacher that performs the demonstration a sadist? > Potioncat: How do we know that Crouch/Moody was telling the truth? Maybe it wasn't normally a part of the cirriculum, maybe DD didn't know he was teaching it. Or if it was part of the cirriculum, maybe it wasn't a given that the Hogwarts teacher would demonstrate it him/herself. In the RW there are things policemen and soldiers have to know how to do or how to defend against. That doesn't make them or their instructors evil. Potioncat From steffy07 at aol.com Fri Apr 2 14:47:45 2004 From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:47:45 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94949 > So my question is: Does Voldemort even know about the incidents in the > Chamber of Secrets and Malfoy's role in them? If so, why didn't he > mention them in the graveyard? Or is Malfoy keeping silent to protect > himself? > > > Carol, who hopes that people aren't deterred by her long post (which was obviously snipped!) Steffy: I have been wondering about the above point you made in your arugement for awhile. If he did know about the CoS, why didn't he mention it at the graveyard? I don't think LV knew about it for that very reason. On the same line of reasoning, I don't think Malfoy knew that it was goign to bring Tom Riddle AKA LV back. I think he just wanted to stir up some trouble for Dumbledore and the Weasleys. If he knew that the diary was going to bring Tom Riddle back, then why didn't he stick up for himself at the graveyard? He could have defended himself by saying "I haven't been lying dormant all these years Master, just two years ago I tried to resurrect your schoolboy self in the form of a diary so that you could once again rule the wizarding world, and I would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for that Harry Potter and his meddling phoenix." Also, I don't think LV ever mentions Harry defeating him 3 times. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong!!) he only says Harry defeated him twice. Once as a baby and then when he was searching for the SS. Figured if he knew that Harry had defeated Tom Riddle/LV he would say Harry thwarted his attempts at WW domination 3 times, and not twice. Steffy, who apologizes for snipping Carol's post so drastically From steffy07 at aol.com Fri Apr 2 14:51:58 2004 From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:51:58 -0000 Subject: Re-reading COS : questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94950 Carol: > I find Aesha's response interesting in light of JKR's revelation that > Remus Lupin is a half blood. Did JKR mean that Lupin is > a) a "half and half" like Seamus? > b) half pureblood, half Muggle-born like Harry? > or c) half witch/wizard, half werewolf like--well, like nobody else we > know in the WW. > But option C could account for his having a werewolflike last name, > and, as I postulated elsewhere in a post that no one responded to, it > could have been his father who bit him. (Reactions, anybody? Don't > bite me!) Steffy: It makes sense to me about Option C. In PoA, Lupin says that it was a foolish mistake to get bitten. Why would it have been a foolish mistake? Surely not because he accidently got bitten at a young age, when he was too young to understand. Maybe it was foolish because he knew not to come too near his father during a certain time each month? From liliana at worldonline.nl Fri Apr 2 15:00:43 2004 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:00:43 -0000 Subject: Re-reading COS : questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94951 > Carol: > > I find Aesha's response interesting in light of JKR's revelation > that > > Remus Lupin is a half blood. Did JKR mean that Lupin is > > a) a "half and half" like Seamus? > > b) half pureblood, half Muggle-born like Harry? > > or c) half witch/wizard, half werewolf like--well, like nobody > else we > > know in the WW. > > But option C could account for his having a werewolflike last name, > > and, as I postulated elsewhere in a post that no one responded to, > it > > could have been his father who bit him. (Reactions, anybody? Don't > > bite me!) > > > Steffy: > It makes sense to me about Option C. In PoA, Lupin says that it was > a foolish mistake to get bitten. Why would it have been a foolish > mistake? Surely not because he accidently got bitten at a young > age, when he was too young to understand. Maybe it was foolish > because he knew not to come too near his father during a certain > time each month? Lilian here: Where does Lupin actually say that it was a foolish mistake to get bitten? All I could find (quickly) was: "....None of this could have happened if I hadn't been bitten ... and if I hadn't been so foolhardy ..." I take the last remark to mean that he should not have been so foolhardy to come to Hogwarts although he was a werewolf (both as a student and as a teacher). Did I miss something? Lilian From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Apr 2 15:08:35 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:08:35 -0000 Subject: Being an animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94952 Amy C. wrote: > > > > > > Here is my question...In the chat with JKR recently she says that a > > person who studies to be an animagus cannot choose what they are to > > become, and in the PoA, I got the impression that the boys picked > > their animals in order to be big enough to "control" the werewolf > > (Remus)???...and my 2nd question is this...how did a stag fit in that > > tiny passageway to the shrieking shack? (p. 337 American Ed. "They > > moved as fast as they could, bent almost double...") > > Sue B. wrote: > > Well, it's JKR's universe, she should know, but I can't recall her sharing the > information with us in the novels themselves. snip The boys' animals certainly seem to suit their > personalities - James the one who charges right in, Sirius the dog - > aggressive, but loyal, Peter the rat - he was,after all, the smallest of them. snip Potioncat: In at least 2 interviews, JKR states that you cannot choose. In one she says how embarrassing it would be to do all that work and turn into a slug and in another she says how terrible it would be to turn into a cockroach. I look at it as they worked to become animagi to be with him, and by luck their size permitted them to control him out of the shack. Although I don't know how Wormtail kept up. I agree the animagi do fit the boys. Even in OoP, Sirius is described in dog-like ways (a barking laugh). And I thought James' attack on Severus was very much like a stag showing off for the herd. So if you do all that work, the animagus is going to fit your personality in some way and would likely be useful to you. (hopefully?) Maybe Rita was shocked to be a beetle until she realised its value to her. Now, I'm not sure when JKR made the statement about the cockroach. It could have been before Rita Skeeter and she didn't want to say beetle. But, I had a brief theory about someone's animagi being a cockroach before I ever read the interview. As for the stag and the tunnel. The boys go to the tree, Sirius and Peter go through the tunnel. James goes to the shadow of the forest, transforms and runs (trots?) to the shack. Of course, I'm not sure how anyone opens doors. But we do see Padfoot open a door in the one of the books. Potioncat From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 2 15:19:26 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:19:26 -0000 Subject: Peter kiling Cedric (Was: JKR's "small thing" in CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94953 justcarol67 > Has anyone besides me noticed that both Dumbledore and Harry > alwasys say that Voldemort murdered Cedric? Technically, this > statement is not quite true. Voldemort, a baby-shaped monster > wrapped in a cloak, gave the order, but Wormtail pointed the wand > and spoke the words that actually killed him. In other words, he > committed murder, orders or no orders. Yet it's as if, in DD's and > Harry's view, Wormtail is only an instrument like the wand > and bears no share of the blame. > > I understand all this, but I'm still bothered by it. In a (Muggle) > court of law, I suppose, both LV and Wormtail would be guilty, but > still: Voldemort murdered Cedric is a half-truth. Wormtail murdered > Cedric under Voldemort's orders is the full truth. Is anyone besides > me bothered by this? or can you "sort it out" for me so I find it > less disturbing? Anybody? Siriusly Snapey Susan: Calling Voldemort Cedric's murderer doesn't bother me in the slightest. To explain why I feel this way, think of the famous American case of Charles Manson. According to the testimony of his followers, Charlie actually committed *none* of the murders; he did, however, tell his followers to commit them. They, of course, did not have to abide by his command, but they did [which is why they, too, are guilty], and by extention then, Charlie *is* a murderer. In both cases--Manson & Voldy--it was a deliberate, willful decision to ask/order/command [choose your term] that someone else be killed. Even if the orderer didn't pull the trigger, wield the knife, or wave the wand, he is just as guilty as the one who did. [IMHO, of course.] It's just like a man who hires a hit-man to kill an enemy. BOTH men are guilty of the murder. Or the guy who drives the get-away car for a bank robber. BOTH are guilty of the crime. As for why DD & Harry don't talk about Wormtail as "the" or "a" murderer, I don't know. Perhaps Harry & DD do not blame Wormtail as much as Voldy because they saw him as being in a position where he had little choice. [RW] Legally speaking, and this mirrors my personal belief, he **could** have been brave & said no to Voldy, just as Manson's followers could have said no, but I understand that many people would see Wormtail's hands as being tied in the matter. Regardless, I absolutely *do* understand why Harry & DD call Voldemort the murderer. Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Apr 2 15:18:43 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:18:43 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94955 Steffy: If he knew that the diary was going to bring Tom Riddle > back, then why didn't he stick up for himself at the graveyard? He > could have defended himself by saying "I haven't been lying dormant > all these years Master, just two years ago I tried to resurrect your > schoolboy self in the form of a diary so that you could once again > rule the wizarding world, and I would have gotten away with it too, > if it hadn't been for that Harry Potter and his meddling phoenix." > > Potioncat: But the DiaryTom was a copy or clone or twin. To us, he was the young evil LV, but to LV he would be another person. While the 2 of them would have shared 15 years of memories, LV would have tons more experience. So I think LV and DiaryTom would view each other as rivals. I think LV will be as upset that Malfoy used his diary as Snape was that Potter went into his pensieve. And I think he'll throw more than a jar of cockroaches. Potioncat From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 2 14:55:07 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:55:07 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lucius - same person? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94956 Even if Homer had nodded and JKR had missed the scene with Snape and Lucius together at the quidditch match, would she have allowed two different actors to play these characters?. Jason Isaacs and Alan Rickman are fairly alike to look at, but not to that extent. Sylvia (reluctantly partingwith the idea of Snape as Draco's dad.) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 2 15:32:57 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:32:57 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lucius -- same person? (was Re: Re-reading CoS : questions, and more about Penny) In-Reply-To: <20040402112612.35011.qmail@web60603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94957 Tim Cuthbertson wrote: > But, how can Lucius and Snape be the same person? They may not have > been seen together in the books but in second film they watch the > Quidditch match together!! > > You may say that this proves nothing, but JKR has forced certain > scenes to be put into the films (eg Voldy killing HP mother in > Godric's Hollow). If Snape and Lucius were the same person, she > would never have allowed this!! Siriusly Snapey Susan: This is perilously close to being OT or Movie Chatter, but **really**, list elves, I'm trying to get at what's important in canon. Really-really!!! ;-) Tim, do we *know* from an interview or something that JKR "forced" the scene of Voldy killing Lily into the movie? I'd never heard this before. I know a lot of people have felt that some imagery in that scene is important to understanding the book [because they see another person present], but I'd never heard that JKR insisted this scene be included. Can you clarify? Siriusly Snapey Susan From liliana at worldonline.nl Fri Apr 2 15:30:38 2004 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:30:38 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Hello all ! > > The recent threads about the Cruciatus Curse have gotten me more and > more confused. I've been arguing that using the Cruciatus curse > requires some kind of sadism, but quite a few people disagree. So > now I'm wondering : how do the Unforgivables work and why are they > they called so ? > > Do they work like any other curse, or do they require some evil > intent ? > > Why give them such a grand name as Unforgivable ? I'm really > bothered by that. Unforgivable implies that there's no redemption > possible. Why is that so ? In most Western societies, even murder > can be "redeemed" : whoever has purged their jail sentence for > murder is supposed to have been "purified" of it, for lack of a > better term. They can go back to society, and live a "normal" life. > > So why does the WW, which is usually notably more lenient on moral > matters than the Real World, think that those 3 Curses are > Unforgivable ? > > I agree that it's not nice to force someone to do something, or to > cause them pain, but isn't it a bit too much to go as far as calling > those things unforgivable ?? > Lilian: After I read your question, I have been mulling it over in my mind to explain my point of view. I came up with the comparison with guns, pistols, rifles and such. But before I embark on it, I would like to note that this is based on the general attitude/legal point of view in the Netherlands. I'm not too sure about the UK, where JKR comes from. Having said that, here goes! A gun (and the others mentioned) is a weapon intended to be used to force, maim or kill a living being. A gun is no toy! Only persons within the police force or the army are legislated to carry such a weapon. But only after they have been sufficiently trained in preventing to use it. For the sake of the comparison, I leave out shooting-clubs. Any other person who acquires a gun will (in general) do so with the intent to use it, which can only be done in the ways described above. Should he use in a case of self defense, he will be exonerated for the use, but still be punished for the possession of a gun. In the case of the Unforgivable curses, they are used to force (Imperius curse), to maim (Cruciatus curse) and to kill (Killing curse). No other outcome when you use them. Should DD imperio LV, to prevent LV from killing Harry, then DD would (probably) be exonerated for the outcome of the Imperius curse, but could still be punished for having used it in the first place (that's what DADA is for!). As to the name, perhaps they are called the Unforgivables because you get a life sentence for it. Or you get a life sentence because they are called the Unforgivables. Pick your choice! ;) Lilian From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 15:52:19 2004 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 07:52:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4432 In-Reply-To: <1080914370.6775.55353.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040402155219.15496.qmail@web10009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 94961 In the opening chapter of OOTP we see Frank Bryce murdered. "He opened his mouth and let out a scream. He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled." Later we see Cedric's death. "Whoever it was, he was short, and wearing a hooded cloak pulled up over his head to obscure his face. And - several paces nearer, the gap between them closing all the time - Harry saw that the thing in the persons arms looked like a baby ... or was it merely a bundle of robes? Harry lowered his wand slightly and glanced sideways at Cedric. Cedric shot him a quizzical look. They both turned back to watch the approaching figure. It stopped beside a towering marble headstone, only six feet from them. For a second. Harry and Cedric and the short figure simply looked at one another. And then, without warning, Harry's scar exploded with pain. It was agony such as he had never felt in all his life; his wand slipped from his fingers as he put his hands over his face; his knees buckled; he was on the ground and he could see nothing at all; his head was about to split open. >From far away, above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, "Kill the spare." A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: "Avada Kedavra!" A blast of green light blazed through Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to the ground beside him;" It never says PP cast that spell. It makes it seem that way but they don't talk of him with a wand in his hand. The first passage shows Lord Thingy is capable of using a wand and AK. Just food for thought. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Apr 2 15:43:37 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:43:37 -0000 Subject: Malfoy the Good Guy was: Wizard lawyers!? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94962 > > Mandy wrote: > I think too many readers see Lucius Malfoy as a "bad guy" because > that is how we, the reader, see him and we are privy to information > the rest of the WW is not. But in the reality of the WW, Mr. Lucius > Malfoy is far from bad. In fact perceived to be not only a good guy, > but a great guy! He donates money to St. Mungos, is heavily involved > in the running of the Ministry. He sat on the board of Governors for > his son's school. Is there anyone else who has done more for his > community? Jen: This is a very important point and definitely something to keep in mind (not only for Lucius, either). We are heavily influenced in our view of the WW by Harry, who is heavily influenced by his history & the people he chooses to hang out with--mostly Order members. The WW at large seems to be getting most of its info from the media, which we found out is prone to censorship by the MOM, and perhaps other influential people like Malfoy as well. I do think the incident at the MOM and imprisonment of Lucius might cast *some* doubt in the eyes of the public. This will be the second time Lucius was connected publicly to LV. A few people will wonder. This won't keep him from worming out of Azkaban, but it may temporarily hinder his personal goals. Fudge leaving the Minister position will also be a barrier. What will ESC!Lucius do next? I hope he won't be Minister--gaaaack! Jen From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Apr 2 16:25:59 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:25:59 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > >snipped > The recent threads about the Cruciatus Curse have gotten me more and > more confused. I've been arguing that using the Cruciatus curse > requires some kind of sadism, but quite a few people disagree. So > now I'm wondering : how do the Unforgivables work and why are they > they called so ? > > Do they work like any other curse, or do they require some evil > intent ? > > Why give them such a grand name as Unforgivable ? I'm really > bothered by that. Unforgivable implies that there's no redemption > possible. Why is that so ? > So why does the WW, which is usually notably more lenient on moral > matters than the Real World, think that those 3 Curses are > Unforgivable ? > > I used to think that they were called Unforgivable because of the > *intent* of the curser : I thought the successful use of one of them > was a sure sign of an irremediably evil heart. > > But as some have pointed out, what about the teachers who > demonstrate the UC to their students ? What about the Aurors who use > them on bad guys ? Does the fact that they manage to perform them > signal that their hearts have turned irremediably evil, and if so, > should they still be allowed to teach/chase criminals ? > There are a fair few posters that have on occasion got very worked up over the Unforgivables and a few months back you'll remember a thread arguing back and forth over whether Harry was forever tainted for having tried one on Bella. Me, I'm much more relaxed about it. JKR has come up with an interesting concept and one that most civilised people would agree with. Three actions that are forbidden; to kill, to cause pain and to remove free will. Interestingly, they are only Unforgivable if directed at another human being. Apparently Elves, Goblins, Giants and Centaurs don't count. (Yes, I know it was Crouch!Moody said this, but some of the kids obviously know a bit about them already; there'd be no point in him lying.) To cast one at a human is to incur immediate incarceration in Azkaban. Yet he Imperio's almost the entire class. And you can be sure they told their friends in other classes and they told....and so on. So it seems highly likely that Crouch!Moody told the truth when he says that Dumbledore decided that they should know about the curses early. (Once again DD seems to be able to pre-empt Voldy's ploys; it really does make me wonder if he has the script taped to his bathroom mirror.) You can't guard against an AK; Crucio! we don't know if you can or not and Imperio! you can shake off with practice. But you have to have the spell cast at you to practice throwing it off. The whole point of DADA is defending against Dark Arts and you won't get that from a book. You need the real thing. Seems like a contradiction - go to Azkaban or be defenceless. The key IMO is intent. Not the intent to throw the spell, but the end towards which the spell is being used. The spells give the user power over other humans - how is that power being used? For good or ill? Teaching and Aurors - basically good; Bella and Voldy - bad. Making irrevocable rules always leads to problems; there are invariably exceptions that creep in and graduations of culpability become apparent. The idea that breaking such a rule makes somebody irredemiably evil is not credible; this is a man-made rule - it is not Holy Writ the breach of which will inevitably drag someone to the nether regions for all eternity. The rule was made to protect individuals and society, but there are bound to be occasions when breaking the rule will provide just that protection that they are looking for. The danger to a user is the same as that of drugs - you could get hooked on the power rush. Just like Bella. Nasty. It becomes an easy way to impose your will on others. But just like drugs there are approved uses in appropriate and defined circumstances. Does that sound reasonable? Hope so, 'cos I'm not about to change my mind. The question is - will Harry be hooked on a single dose? Kneasy From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 2 16:29:13 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:29:13 -0000 Subject: Kill The Spare: Was DN 4432 In-Reply-To: <20040402155219.15496.qmail@web10009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94964 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Darrell Harris wrote: > From far away, above his head, he heard a high, cold > voice say, "Kill the spare." A swishing noise and a > second voice, which screeched the words to the night: > "Avada Kedavra!" A blast of green light blazed through > Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to > the ground beside him;" > > It never says PP cast that spell. It makes it seem > that way but they don't talk of him with a wand in his > hand. The first passage shows Lord Thingy is capable > of using a wand and AK. Just food for thought. "K": JK Rowling World Book Day Chat 4/4/2004 Rorujin: Did Wormtail used Voldemort's wand to kill Cedric? Is it why Cedric comes out of Voldemort's wand even though was Wormtail who killed him? JK Rowling replies -> Correct! http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrwbd.shtml Tigerfan, though JKR has a way of misleading us with her answers (*cough* vampire *cough*) in her interviews, it would appear that Peter did indeed cast the spell that killed Cedric. "K" From ekrbdg at msn.com Fri Apr 2 16:13:47 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:13:47 -0500 Subject: Peter kiling Cedric References: <20040402155219.15496.qmail@web10009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008801c418cd$8063c140$6ee8f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 94965 *Darrell Harris' comment* >It never says PP cast that spell. It makes it seem >that way but they don't talk of him with a wand in his >hand. The first passage shows Lord Thingy is capable >of using a wand and AK. Just food for thought. *Kimberly's Comments* Excerpt from the JKR webchat Rorujin: Did Wormtail used Voldemort's wand to kill Cedric? Is it why Cedric comes out of Voldemort's wand even though was Wormtail who killed him? JK Rowling replies -> Correct! PP did kill Cedric, with LV's wand. Kimberly, who remembers this because it's one of the most emotion filled, exciting chapters in the series ! From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 2 17:54:50 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:54:50 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94966 Del wrote: > > The recent threads about the Cruciatus Curse have gotten me more > > and more confused. I've been arguing that using the Cruciatus > > curse requires some kind of sadism, but quite a few people > > disagree. So now I'm wondering : how do the Unforgivables work > > and why are they they called so ? > > > > Do they work like any other curse, or do they require some evil > > intent ? > > > > Why give them such a grand name as Unforgivable ? I'm really > > bothered by that. > > I used to think that they were called Unforgivable because of the > > *intent* of the curser : I thought the successful use of one of > > them was a sure sign of an irremediably evil heart. > > > > But as some have pointed out, what about the teachers who > > demonstrate the UC to their students ? What about the Aurors who > > use them on bad guys ? Does the fact that they manage to perform > > them signal that their hearts have turned irremediably evil, and > > if so, should they still be allowed to teach/chase criminals ? Kneasy replied: > JKR has come up with an interesting concept and one that most > civilised people would agree with. Three actions that are > forbidden; to kill, to cause pain and to remove free will. > To cast one at a human is to incur immediate incarceration in > Azkaban. Yet he [Crouch!Moody] Imperio's almost the entire class. > So it seems highly likely that Crouch!Moody told the truth when he > says that Dumbledore decided that they should know about the curses > early. (Once again DD seems to be able to pre-empt Voldy's ploys; > it really does make me wonder if he has the script taped to his > bathroom mirror.) > You can't guard against an AK; Crucio! we don't know if you can or > not and Imperio! you can shake off with practice. But you have to > have the spell cast at you to practice throwing it off. The whole > point of DADA is defending against Dark Arts and you won't get that > from a book. You need the real thing. Seems like a contradiction - > go to Azkaban or be defenceless. > The key IMO is intent. Not the intent to throw the spell, but the > end towards which the spell is being used. The spells give the > user power over other humans - how is that power being used? For > good or ill? Teaching and Aurors - basically good; Bella and Voldy - > bad. Siriusly Snapey Susan: I think you're exactly right, Kneasy, about the intent **towards the end of the spell**, not just the intent to throw it. Kind of like in the RW, taking a life in a rage or revenge vs. killing in self- defense. I'm wondering, too, about what Bella told Harry about really having to MEAN it for it to work. Maybe that was true; maybe it wasn't & she was toying w/ his confidence. But maybe it's that it's true *for that particular unforgivable*--Crucio!--and not necessarily for all three. It seems pretty likely you'd need to MEAN it for AK as well. But maybe Imperio! is easier to cast? Maybe that's why Crouch!Moody [presumably w/ DD's approval] allowed the students to practice Imperio! without getting into trouble? I mean, if it's the one of the three curses which we know you can shake OFF w/ practice, maybe it's also simpler to cast? Siriusly Snapey Susan From KLMF at aol.com Fri Apr 2 17:52:40 2004 From: KLMF at aol.com (klmf1) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:52:40 -0000 Subject: About Dung... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94967 Sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum---I haven't been able to follow this group for the past few months. Mundungus--on my umpteenth time thru book 5 it occured to me that Dung was already in the Hogshead when Harry & Co. entered (he was dressed as the veiled witch). HOW did he know to be there? Or did I miss something obvious? K From rredordead at aol.com Fri Apr 2 18:19:57 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 18:19:57 -0000 Subject: Lucius and prison and all that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94968 > -Nora wrote: > JKR has told us that there's going to be a new Minister of Magic, one > thing that I'd predicted for myself. Scandals like the one just > having taken place under Fudge are the kind of thing that remove > administrations from power, and there's a long and fine British > tradition of them. So Fudge is toast, and discounting some real > manifestation of FIE, I don't think he'll be one of the vengeful > kicking and screaming types--I think he's pretty shaken up. > Fudge being gone cuts out a decent amount of Lucius' influence, off > the bat. In addition, I'm not sure what Lucius' reputation was > really *like*; witness the ever brought-up exchange with Borgin in > book 2. Borgin doesn't exactly sound like a fan, as soon as Lucius > has left the store. Mandy here: We don't know that. I seriously doubt's that Fudge is the only member of the Ministry Lucius has in his back pocket. > -Nora wrote: > Lucius got caught red-handed. Enough witnesses were there to prove > that Dumbledore had been right all along. Factor in the possibility > that people had always been making quiet noises about what Lucius > was, and his reputation is toast. The WW doesn't seem to be terribly > fond of Death Eaters, either... Mandy here: Sketchy witnesses at best. All of them fighting so no one is going to have a truly clear picture of what happened. Try proving any action during a battle, it's impossible. Only we, as witnesses, have a clear picture of what happened and that is because JKR wanted us to see the climax of her story. Try to look at the picture from inside, from each characters point of view, and it becomes very blurred. DD himself was on the run from authorities at the time, so his testimony will be ripped to shreds, Lupin is a werewolf and hated within the WW so his testimony won't be taken seriously. The children were not supposed to be there and could easily be kept from testifying. Even if they did, how are they going to explain why they were there? Rescuing Sirius? He's a convict on the run. If the fact that Harry, and through Harry DD, know where Sirius was for the last 2 years DD would be in even deeper trouble. Not to mention, Shaklebolt and Tonks are Aurors working for the MoM if it comes out that they knew where Sirius was their careers are destroyed. As Kneasy said in another post, the whitewash is going to be huge and Malfoy could get away with murder, literally within that kind of cover up. The WW is going to want to know why Malfoy is locked up and there is not going to be a convincing explanation. > -Nora wrote: > We have no evidence of wizarding lawyers, and the justice system is > pretty awfully summary. This worked against Harry in his hearing, > against Black, sent to Azkaban without a trial--I see no reason for > Malfoy to get any better treatment, especially as he's already in > prison. No mention was made in OotP of an upcoming trial, and Draco > didn't say something like 'Money/whatever will get him off', but > simply that they'd be out soon--more likely a breakout than not. > (Draco also does seem at least a little concerned for the publicness > of all this. As right he should.) Mandy here: But Harry did have a hearing and DD served as his council because his guilt had to be proven before they could punish him. Crouch and the Lestranges had a trial where Crouch Jr., was allowed to speak on his own behalf, before they were sentenced to life in Azkaban. Black did not, but I answered that point in another post but here is a copy : Sirius did not have the support of his immensely powerful family backing him up at the time. They had turned their back on him. Ironically as Sirius was thrown in to Azkaban for being a mass murderer and LV heir apparent. One would think that would have redeemed him in his parent's eyes. But even if his parents had a turn- around and wanted to help their only remaining son at the time of his sentence, the time was all-wrong. With LV being defeated the tied of public opinion was against anyone who was with LV, and the Black family along with all the purebloods, were desperately trying to distance themselves. To help their son would have either proven the family's loyalty to LV, or Sirius allegiance to DD. Neither option would have been acceptable to the Black family. For them, the best answer was to let Sirius rot in prison. Malfoy, on the other hand, looks like a good guy, we know he isn't but he has the WW on his side. He's managed to position himself where he maintains respect and power, and I don't think his camp will allow him to just be thrown into Azkaban without an explanation or a fight. Some sort of trial, or an inquiry will be demanded and I don't see how the WW cannot comply. No one with Malfoy's kind of power can be thrown into Azkaban and be made to disappear unless all sides want it, which was the case with Sirius. Lucius Malfoy will fight and fight hard! Also who should Draco explain how his father is going to get out of prison to his enemy? Just to say he's getting out is enough. > -Nora wrote: > With a toasted reputation, there's only so much money can do. I do > admit that a scenario I'd love to see is 'Draco as social pariah', > now that his daddy's a prison b**ch. There are, of course, the back > ways, and I'm fairly sure that the DEs will get out of Azkaban > somehow, but Lucius is way too far gone for a public rehabilitation > by now. His delusions of being the one pulling the strings are > toasted. If I were the Minister, I'd probably execute all the DEs in > Azkaban, but that's just my bloodthirsty side speaking... Mandy here: Lucius has been pulling the strings at the ministry for years. Those are not delusions. Our experience, as readers, of the Ministry comes from Arthur Weasley and he is someone who has not conformed to the bribery and back stabbing that seems to be rife at the ministry. Arthur's lowly position seem to me to be proof that, if you don't play the game you get left behind. Malfoy has been playing that game to his advantage for years and he know has an opportunity to call in his chips. Execution for the convicted DE, of which Malfoy is not one, would be a good answer, but there is no record of any legal executions occurring in the WW. The death sentence doesn't exist in Britain or Europe either so I don't think it would happen in JKR's books. I would like to see Draco as a social pariah though. Mandy. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Apr 2 18:35:31 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 18:35:31 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Potioncat: > > I thought the "Unforgivable" referred to the legal status. That is, > no legal excuse for using it therefore automatic sentencing. Except > when Aurors were allowed to use it on outlaws. > > This ties in with my own confusion about the definition of Dark Arts. > While the WW may be clear on them, I am not. Geoff: This is also how I would interpret Crouch!Moody's comments on them... "'Now.... those three curses - Avada Kedavra, Imperius and Cruciatus - are known as the Unforgivable Curses. The use of any one of them on a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentence in Azkaban. That's what you're up against.....'" (GOF "The Unforgiveable Curses" p. 192 UK edition) They are meant to eliminate, incapacitate or totally control other people. The other curses which may be used - Stupefy, Petrificus Totalis, Impedimenta etc can obviously affect others but the results are short term without the intention of lasting harm. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Apr 2 19:37:08 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:37:08 -0000 Subject: What's he up to? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94970 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fiondavhar" wrote: > > Dobby deliberatley skirts the issue. He doesn't say that Harry can't > free him because he is not a member of the family, as he would likely > have said if it were so. A house-elf is probably bound by their magic > to be unable to ask their family to be freed, so this would make > sense. Later on, when he speaks to Harry in the hospital wing, Dobby > says that he can only be freed if his masters (PLURAL!) provide him > with clothes. > > Dobby would be able to come and warn Harry about the things that were > going to happen at Hogwarts if he had not been given a direct order > not to. In OotP Kreacher can tell Narcissa things, just not things > the he had been forbiddin from repeating. There are certain things > that Dobby won't tell Harry, because he HAS been forbiddin, but he > comes very close, which would explain why he had to beat himslef. > > Another reason that he might have to beat himself is because he is > doing things against the will of Harry, *one of the family* > (speculation, of course). After he sealed the barrier at platform 9 > 3/4, Dobby said he had to iron his hands - but if he were acting on > Malfoys orders he would not have had to do that. He did, however, > know that he was acting against Harry's will... > > Another thing that could indicate that Harry is by blood a member of > the family Dobby served is that in the later books, when Dumbledore > is his master, Dobby acts more as though Harry is his master. He > steals from Snape, repeats Moody and McGonagalls conversation, and > comes freely to Harry in order to help him. Also, in OotP, when Dobby > defys a direct order by going to warn Harry that Umbridge has found > him out, Harry gives Dobby a direct order to get back to the kitchen > and to lie if asked if he warned them, and Dobby obeys without > question. > > Of course, none of this necessarily means that Harry is of that > family, but neither does it say that he isn't. > It do get interesting, don't it? Schoolchildren and their doings interest me not at all, magic is not all that magical and yet another Evil Overlord threatening to take over the world is just a yawn.The adult characters are well-drawn and JKR has presented a society just different enough to intrigue and where basic premises are changed sufficiently to throw one off balance but not so much that you're at the mercy of the author's whims, alibis and cover-ups. The major draw for me in the HP series is plot ambiguity. Why did so-and-so do that? What does this mean? Can I believe what this character says? Who and what is this person? Does it matter or not? All that lovely analysis and theorising - for 5 books! Now that is magic. Give me a set of puzzles, potential double-meanings, clues and red herrings and I'm a happy bunny. And it's not just one or two of the main cast either - it's most of the named individuals in the books. Dobby is yet another example. We start with a general overview of the nature and condition of Elfdom in general and then the three that have so far been plot sensitive. Questions all the way. Few answers. We've more or less sorted out Kreachur to our own satisfaction, but that doesn't guarantee that there won't be a surprise or two to come. Winky seems well on the way to becoming the local wino so we can forget about her; or can we? And then there's Dobby. IMO the CoS film did Dobby a dis-service; it made him cute - well, cutish. And he's not. He's got power and he can be spiteful. Above all he has information; lots and lots of information. He knows that he has information, but does he divulge it? Does he hell! I bet if you could strap him in a chair with a few bright lights and a couple of heavies, he could give away the entire plot! But we can't and he won't. So we're back to speculation. At the start of this thread I wrote that the family connection was my theory last year; that I'd had further thoughts. True. But there is so much evidence, conflicting, contradicting, ambiguous and none of it what you could call solid, that there is an almost over-whelming temptation to try and cover all possibilities. Or at the very least to get the likeliest on paper and brood over them hoping for inspiration to strike. There is no reason that I can see why either of the main theories I put forward should be right - or wrong. You pays your money and you takes your choice. Yes there are all sorts of hints that Dobby is connected to Harry in ways that Harry is not aware of. He does seem to be eager to please Harry at every possible turn - but is this just gratitude for his freedom? But Malfoy *must* be in there somewhere. He must know Dobby's history and that is a crucial piece of information. Even if Dobby was dumped on him by the Elf Re-location Office he must know where he came from - and if Harry's family then Malfoy knows that too. It was this thought that prompted the re-think. Even if Lucius did send Dobby to Harry that still doesn't change the possibility that Dobby might have other incentives - family connections - for being so friendly to Harry. Back to the brain-bashing. After all, I might have missed something. Kneasy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 19:41:38 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:41:38 -0000 Subject: feelings...nothing more than feelings... (was: Re: Harry's disposition ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94971 > Kimberly wrote: > > I think that for me, that clears up the question of "why didn't > Harry stop and use the mirror ?". He was determined from first > receiving the package that he wasn't going to use it. I still > think he could have used the mirror but at least that gives me an > insight as to why he didn't. It was reckless and impetuous, yes, > but maybe this can shed some wandlight behind him jumping off and > running to the MoM the way he did. > > Geoff responded: > Allow me to disagree with you. > > (Sirius) "I want you to take this, he said quietly,thrusting a badly > wrapped package ....... into Harry's hands. "What is it?" Harry > asked. "A way of letting me know .... No, don't open it in > here...."said Sirius ...... "OK", said Harry, stowing the package > away ..... but he knew he would never use it .... It would not be > he,Harry, who lured Sirius from his place of safety," > > ie HP didn't want to compromise SB's safety. > So we agree up to there. > > > "Harry ..... noticed a badly wrapped package lying in a corner of it > (his trunk). He could not think what it was doing there ..... He > realised what it was within seconds. Sirius had given it to him > inside the front door of number twelve Grimmauld Place." > > ie Harry had completely forgotten about it. It had been given at a > time when everybody was rushing around in ever decreasing circles > getting ready. Carol: IMO, it's all part of the terrible irony of good intentions contributing to (but *not* causing) Sirius's death. DD, Snape, Harry, and Sirius himself all unwittingly contributed to Sirius's death in some way, but the blame lies with LV for luring Harry to the MoM and Bellatrix (or whoever cast that second spell). The forgotten mirror emphasizes the irony of good intentions gone awry. And look at Geoff's first quotation: "It would not be he, Harry, who lured Sirius from his place of safety." Yet Sirius left Grimmauld Place to save Harry despite Harry's good intentions. That line reads very differently on a subsequent reading than on a first. No wonder Harry has a bad case of survivor's guilt. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 19:57:49 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:57:49 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Crucio. W as: Bellatrix and the Crucio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94972 Kneasy wrote: > Remember that Crouch!Moody tells Harry's class that they are being shown the Forbidden Curses early - that normally they would have to wait until their sixth year before they saw them demonstrated. This > means that it was a part of the curriculum - does that make the > teacher that performs the demonstration a sadist? Carol: Well, unquestionably, Crouch!Moody was a sadist. He enjoyed turning Draco into a bouncing ferret and had no pity for the tortured spiders or poor Neville, who was watching. More important, he had helped to torture the Longbottoms into insanity and had no qualms about Imperioing Krum to Crucio the innocent Cedric. That aside, do we really *know* that the students would see the Unforgiveable Curses demonstrated in their sixth year, much less that they would actually be Imperio'd--a teacher performing an illegal and Unforgiveable Curse on his own students? I for one think that Crouch!Moody was taking advantage of his cover as a supposed ex-auror, and of Dumbledore's trust, to do what the real Moody would not have done. I wonder what the parents would have thought if the students had reported over the summer that a teacher had Imperio'd them. I think DD would have had a flock or owls demending that teacher's resignation. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 18:59:28 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 18:59:28 -0000 Subject: Luna's importance to the series. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94973 > Seren wrote: > > The Sorting Hat has spoken of the need for inter-house unity. Now, > traditionally, we know that Gryffindor is aligned with Hufflepuff; > conversely, this means Ravenclaw is tradionally aligned with > Slytherin. We know that at least Draco Malfoy, the archtypal > Slytherin, doesn't look down on Ravenclaw... he says so to Harry in > Madame Malkin's robe shop. In GoF, Rowling reinforces the idea that > Hufflepuff is normally sided with Gryffindor. While Ravenclawers are > not nessecarily all for Slytherin, they are placed side by side. > Bella responded: > > I agree with you that Luna is important. > But it's not so much that she is more important than the DA. The DA > is the biggest thing toward house unity so far--bigger than Luna. Carol: I don't the fact that Draco doesn't look down on Ravenclaws, who are chosen for their intelligence, indicates a traditional alliance between Ravenclaw and Slytherin. Nor does his contempt for Hufflepuff, known for loyalty and hard work but not for qualities he prizes (like cunning, ambition, and pure blood) indicate that Gryffindor (which he doesn't mention) is traditionally allied with Hufflepuff. There are Ravenclaws in the DA (which, as Bella notes, is more important than Luna as an indication of interhouse unity if only because it involves more people); Harry has a crush on Cho (until OoP); the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws support Gryffindor against Slytherin in the Quidditch finals. I don't see any indication that the Ravenclaws and Slytherins are "placed side by side." Note also that it was Salazar Slytherin alone who left the group of original founders: one against three (or three against one, as he must have perceived it). For good or ill, the Slytherins are the odd men (children) out, and evidently have been for a very long time. The Sorting Hat, I think, wants to bring them back in, even if that means it sits on the shelf unused for the rest of its unnatural life. I do think (hope) a Slytherin will join the DA (I've posted elsewhere that I think it will be Theo Nott, but it could be Blaise Zabini). I'm also hoping that Harry will finally have a class that includes some Ravenclaws. I'm betting that it will be N.E.W.T. Potions. Carol From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 20:10:33 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:10:33 -0000 Subject: About Dung... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94975 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klmf1" wrote: > Sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum---I haven't been able to follow > this group for the past few months. > > Mundungus--on my umpteenth time thru book 5 it occured to me that Dung > was already in the Hogshead when Harry & Co. entered (he was dressed as > the veiled witch). HOW did he know to be there? Or did I miss something > obvious? > > K Meri answers: I would guess that DD knew pretty much from the beginning what HRH and the rest of the DA were up to, no matter how secretive they were trying to be. After all, DD doesn't need an invisibility cloak to become invisible. So he probably knew the date, time and location of the DA meeting pretty early on. But also, Fletcher is a pretty shady character, and is probably used for more covert operations. If I was DD and I wanted to do everything in my power to protect Hogwarts, I would keep one of my most trusted spies in the Hog's Head, anyway, just because of its shady reputation. You never know what you might accidentally overhear there. Barely a sickel's worth of thought, but it is, after all, a Friday afternoon. Meri - who thinks that there is an even bigger espionage operation going on then we yet know about. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 20:29:28 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:29:28 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94976 Potioncat wrote: I thought the "Unforgivable" referred to the legal status. That is, no legal excuse for using it therefore automatic sentencing. Except when Aurors were allowed to use it on outlaws. > Geoff: > This is also how I would interpret Crouch!Moody's comments on them... > > "'Now.... those three curses - Avada Kedavra, Imperius and Cruciatus - > are known as the Unforgivable Curses. The use of any one of them on > a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentence in Azkaban. > That's what you're up against.....'" > They are meant to eliminate, incapacitate or totally control other > people. The other curses which may be used - Stupefy, Petrificus > Totalis, Impedimenta etc can obviously affect others but the results > are short term without the intention of lasting harm. Carol: I agree with Geoff about the intent to cause harm, though not necessarily about lasting harm. Harry, for example, has survived the terrible pain of several Crucios. It was only the extended, unremitting use of them that drove the Longbottoms insane. And the Imperius Curse placed on Krum lasted just long enough for him to Crucio Cedric (Crouch!Moody's evil will was operating through him), but when he was released from the spell, he ran away in guilt and confusion. Here's what I think: Avada Kedavra is Unforgiveable (not just illegal) because it can only be performed with the intent to commit murder and there is no counter spell. Crucio is Unforgiveable because it requires a will (desire) to torture, not just to cause temporary pain. (I agree with Del that only a sadist like Bellatrix can successfully perform it.) Imperius is Unforgiveable because it deprives the victim of choice and forces him or her to do another's will. True, the uses to which Crouch!Moody put it in GoF appear harmless enough (making Neville do acrobatics, etc.), but C!M was nevertheless imposing his will on the students in violation of their own self-determination. Moreover, C!M was able to perform the spell because he had trained his will to the domination of others (to borrow a Gandalfism). So none of these spells, IMO, can be performed without evil intent. I think, as Del does (in a different post), that these spells corrupt the soul. Crouch Sr. did himself and the aurors a great disservice by making them legal as a punishment for DEs. Just possibly he has endangered their immortal souls. JKR is a Christian, after all. (Crouch Jr., of course, was corrupted long before he taught at Hogwarts, with an Imperio'd Moody in his trunk and an Imperio'd father at home, not to mention his role in torturing the Longbottoms.) To me, Unforgiveable is *not* synonymous with illegal. It relates not to law but to religion or morality. So my question is, *who* cannot forgive the use of these curses? Is it God, who is generally outside the picture in the WW except for the evidence here and there of an after life? Is it the WW as a whole? Suggestions or explanations, anyone? Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 19:17:07 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:17:07 -0000 Subject: Peter kiling Cedric (Was: JKR's "small thing" in CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94977 I (Carol) wrote: > > Has anyone besides me noticed that both > > Dumbledore and Harry alwasys say that Voldemort murdered Cedric? > > Technically, this statement is not quite true. Voldemort, a > > baby-shaped monster wrapped in a cloak, gave the order, but > Wormtail pointed the wand and spoke the words that actually killed > him. In other words, he committed murder, orders or no orders. Yet it's as if, in DD's and Harry's view, Wormtail is only an instrument like the wand and bears no share of the blame. > Is anyone besides me bothered by this? or can you "sort it out" for me so I find it less disturbing? Anybody? > Lilian responded: > > I have not thought about it before, but now you bring up the > point... Wormtail (or Peter Pettigrew rather) is believed to be > dead. He was blown up by Sirius, together with a lot of Muggles. He > received the Order of Merlin posthumously and all his mother got was > his one finger. Only DD, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Lupin and Sirius know > that this is not the truth, but the rest of the WW do not. > > LV on the other hand, is believed by some in the WW to be gone > forever, but not by all. If DD would have said, although more > accurately, that it was Peter Pettigrew who actually killed Cedric, > no one in the WW would have believed DD. Claiming that it is LV (and > who is indirectly responsible)will put some in the WW at their guard > and possibly convince some doubters. Carol again: Right. I know that it would be complicated to bring in PP by name--it would sound like a cock and bull story. But why not at least say that a DE did it on Voldemort's orders. That would be more plausible than Voldemort (thought to have been vaporized) doing it himself. The students don't even know about his "baby" form. As DD and Harry tell it, it sounds as if the resurrected Voldemort killed Cedric himself with his own wand. Maybe I'm worried about nothing, but I think they're undermining their own credibility by not giving at least a *slightly* clearer version of what happened. Maybe now that LV is known to have come back, Harry will make some version of the story public. Or maybe he and DD will think it's best to protect Cedric's privacy? Carol From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 2 20:39:58 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:39:58 -0000 Subject: Lucius and prison and all that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94978 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Yeah, we need Geoff Bannister to explain to us Americans the difference between barristers and solicitors: both "lawyers" on this side of the water. But here's another analogy to the Lucius scenario besides the political: could he be like John Gotti without the throat cancer? He's the guy they called the "Teflon Don" because he literally got away with murder for so long. Of course, he ended up dying in prison, and his son's mistress just committed suicide. (Sonny's in jail now, too, on much less interesting charges.) --JDR From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 21:11:02 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:11:02 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lucius - same person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94980 Sylvia wrote: > Even if Homer had nodded and JKR had missed the scene with Snape and > Lucius together at the quidditch match, would she have allowed two > different actors to play these characters?. Jason Isaacs and Alan > Rickman are fairly alike to look at, but not to that extent. > Sylvia (reluctantly partingwith the idea of Snape as Draco's dad.) Del : I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My original proposal was that someone, either Lucius or Snape, is some kind of Metamorphagus and is now playing both roles. But of course, he would play each role in the appropriate "costume" ie body. I commented on the fact that though Lucius and Snape *look* very different, they *act* very alike, and I asked if we have any canon stating that they clearly cannot be one and the same. I don't even call that a theory, because it's so improbable. I'm just wondering. Del, who missed the Homer reference, sorry From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 20:26:13 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:26:13 -0000 Subject: A simple-minded question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > All my questions seem to be basically simple-minded (I am a simple > soul). ... bboy_mn: 'Tis a gift to be simple 'Tis a gift to be free 'Tis a gift to come down Where we ought to be And when we find ourselves In that place just right We will be in the valley Of Love and delight. > Does Harry owe a life-debt to Snape for saving his life in the first > book? > > Sylvia bboy_mn: We are dealing with a common misconception held by almost everybody; in reality (fictional reality), Snape did not save Harry. Snape TRIED to save Harry, but it was Hermione with her Flame Charm that actually saved him, although she saved him by an accidental twist of fate. In 'flaming' Snape, Quirrel was knocked over and that stopped the Jinx that Quirrel was putting on Harry's broom. So, if Harry has a life debt to anyone, it's Hermione. Also, I'm not sure that Snape even knew for a sure what he was doing. I suspect that he saw Harry broom acting strange and made the assumption that someone somewhere might be trying to jinx Harry's broom. So, he started muttering 'best guess' countercurses which were only marginally effective. The countercurses certainly bought Harry some time, and kept him from falling off his broom, but his countercurses only moderated the jinx, it didn't actually stop it. Again, it was Hermione's accidental breaking of Quirrel's concentration and eye contact that stopped the jinx, and allowed Harry to get back on his broom. Now, I certainly can't say what Snape did was worthless; it did buy Harry some time, and that time allowed Hermione to come to the rescue, but I think it's probably an overstatement to say that Snape's contribution was enough to earn him a 'life debt'. Just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 20:00:19 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:00:19 -0000 Subject: feelings...nothing more than feelings... (was: Re: Harry's disposition ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94982 Carol wrote: IMO, it's all part of the terrible irony of good intentions contributing to (but *not* causing) Sirius's death. DD, Snape, Harry, and Sirius himself all unwittingly contributed to Sirius's death in some way, but the blame lies with LV for luring Harry to the MoM and Bellatrix (or whoever cast that second spell). The forgotten mirror emphasizes the irony of good intentions gone awry. And look at Geoff's first quotation: "It would not be he, Harry, who lured Sirius from his place of safety." Yet Sirius left Grimmauld Place to save Harry despite Harry's good intentions. vmonte responds: I agree with Carol. Besides, JKR is planing on using the mirror in the next 2 books. Now that it's in several pieces, I'm sure that Harry, Ron, & Hermione will be using it. vmonte From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Apr 2 21:19:06 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:19:06 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94983 Carol wrote: >>> I agree with Geoff about the intent to cause harm, though not necessarily about lasting harm. Harry, for example, has survived the terrible pain of several Crucios. It was only the extended, unremitting use of them that drove the Longbottoms insane. And the Imperius Curse placed on Krum lasted just long enough for him to Crucio Cedric (Crouch!Moody's evil will was operating through him), but when he was released from the spell, he ran away in guilt and confusion. >>> Ali: For some strange reason, I love this subject, and have a tendency to reproduce a post I first wrote about 18 months ago. I agree very much with the rationale of Geoff: IMO, the Unforgivables all deprive the victim of their right of self-determination; AK in the most obvious and final way. In English Law a crime consists of 2 components: The crime itself (actus reus) The intent (Mens Rea) Whilst muggles and one supposes wizards can be killed in many different ways, what stands out with AK is that these alternate ways can do things other than kill. AK does one thing and one thing only and that is take life. For instance, a gun will kill if it contains a bullet and if it is pointed at a nearby head and achieves its target. However, a gun is also used to fire a noise into the air to start a race. Hands might be used to wring a neck, thus taking life, but they could also be used to wring out wet clothes. IMO AK is unforgivable as it will always combine both the physical act with the intention. Once the curse is correctly cast, it can not be blocked. The object of the curse will die (unless they are Harry of course). The fact that AK is the only unforgivable "killing curse", does not make other killing methods more justifiable or less "bad"? they could presumably result in a life sentence to Azkaban. I am unsure how a "failed" curse would be perceived by the WW. For instance, Moody tells Harry's class that there must be considerable force behind an AK spell. If a child tries and fails, they must surely be guilty of attempted AK. Their punishment would then perhaps depend on how successful they thought that they would be. For instance, if the Neville we know up to GoF was to try to attempt AK, nobody would expect him to be successful. His failure would have been easy to predict, and would lessen the status of the "crime"- in my eyes at least. Right of Self Determination: IMO both the Cruciatus curse and the Imperius curse are Unforgivable as they take away their victim's right of self-determination, and place them at the mercy of another. The Imperius curse can be blocked, so whilst this ability is unusual, it is possible. IIRC, we are not told whether the Cruciatus curse can be blocked, although we are certainly given no clue that this is possible. Once again, the only purpose of these curses is to place you under somebody else's power. The castor could be using the curses for kicks, to achieve an action or gain information, but they are forcing the victim to act against their will. There is no other possible outcome, there is no other possible intention. Carol again: >>> True, the uses to which Crouch!Moody put it in GoF appear harmless enough (making Neville do acrobatics, etc.), but C!M was nevertheless imposing his will on the students in violation of their own self-determination. Moreover, C!M was able to perform the spell because he had trained his will to the domination of others (to borrow a Gandalfism). So none of these spells, IMO, can be performed without evil intent.<<< Ali: I agree that C!Moody was imposing his will on his students, but, and it's a very big but, they were willing participants. He gives Hermione the choice not to take part in the lesson. The students are voluntarily giving up their rights of self-determination. To me, this means that whilst C!M is showing them how the Imperius Curse works, he is not actually commiting an offence. Except that is, if you argue that the students were under age and therefore not legally capable of making that judgement. Hmmn, I think there is wriggle room there anyway. I take the point that there *are* other curses which take away the right of self determination, in one sense, every curse that makes the victim do something against their will, fulfills that definition. But, we could summise that those curses have a natural lifespan after which they stop, whereas the Unforgiveable Curses have to be lifted. The Unforgiveable Curses remain different because of their capacity to withstand blocks. The Imperious Curse can be blocked, but it still seems to be an exceptional Wizard that can do it. As we know, Harry is exceptional. His survival of the AK curse is the reason for the 7 books which we love. Carol: >> > To me, Unforgiveable is *not* synonymous with illegal. It relates not to law but to religion or morality. So my question is, *who* cannot forgive the use of these curses? Is it God, who is generally outside the picture in the WW except for the evidence here and there of an after life? Is it the WW as a whole? Suggestions or explanations, anyone?<<< It certainly would fit for these curses to be unforgiveable for moral reasons, but, I still feel that this would have to be a Wizarding World judicious interpretation of it. We know that Dumbledore goes against the grain by believing in second chances. If there is some kind of divine reason for the curses to be unforgiveable, it would seem to go against JKR's message about forgiving and second chances. It is true that humans can get used to, and learn to take pleasure in cruelty. I can imagine there being a WW belief that casting such a curse would sully ones soul or somehow alter ones chemical makeup. But, I believe that Harry will proof that this is not the case. I still believe that if tried in a muggle court for casting the Cruciatus curse, he would be found not guilty by reason of temporary insanity. If he was temporarily out of his mind, is his soul ruined? I think and hope not. I do agree that it was very significant that Harry did place the cruciatus curse on Bella. It is also significant that it didn't really work. In reality. although Harry tried to perform the cruciatus curse, he was unsuccessful because he did not have the necessary level of intent. Ali From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 21:36:09 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:36:09 -0000 Subject: Lucius and prison and all that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94984 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: > JKR has told us that there's going to be a new Minister of Magic, one > thing that I'd predicted for myself. Scandals like the one just > having taken place under Fudge are the kind of thing that remove > administrations from power, and there's a long and fine British > tradition of them. So Fudge is toast, and discounting some real > manifestation of FIE, I don't think he'll be one of the vengeful > kicking and screaming types--I think he's pretty shaken up. Is it just me, or anyone else getting a Fudge = Chamberlain and ? = Churchill sort of feeling? -Joe in SoFla From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 21:37:45 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:37:45 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses : what about Petrificus Totalus ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94985 Carol wrote : > To me, Unforgiveable is *not* synonymous with illegal. It relates not > to law but to religion or morality. So my question is, *who* cannot > forgive the use of these curses? Is it God, who is generally outside > the picture in the WW except for the evidence here and there of an > after life? Is it the WW as a whole? Suggestions or explanations, > anyone? Del : Hey, I wanted to bring up that very question in my original list, but having been burned recently, I decided not to go over the law/morality opposition again :-) Another point I've been bothered with is the use of some other curses that have not been described as either unforgivable or even forbidden. Petrificus Totalus, in particular, disturbs me a lot. It seems to me that it should fall in the Unforgivable category as well, because : 1. It annihilates one's freedom of action 2. It can easily allow some horrendous crimes to be committed. Being a woman, rape is the first one I think of. But it could also be used to immobilise someone in a burning house, for example, or to drown them. 3. I can't see when it could be used in a *constructive* way. Maybe when someone gets hysterical ? Or to stop a bad guy from doing something ? But it could get the same kind of exceptional treatment as the other Unforgivable Curses seem to receive then : it could be tolerated when used by trained people (Healers, Aurors) or in self-defence situations. 4. To me it's akin to tying someone up and gagging them, in RL, and most of the time, it's a very bad thing, right ? What do you all think ? Del From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 21:40:12 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:40:12 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivable Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94986 I (Carol) wrote: > I think, as Del does (in a different post), that these spells > corrupt the soul. Crouch Sr. did himself and the aurors a great > disservice by making them legal as a punishment for DEs. Just > possibly he has endangered their immortal souls. JKR is a > Christian, after all. (Crouch Jr., of course, was corrupted long > before he taught at Hogwarts, with an Imperio'd Moody in his trunk > and an Imperio'd father at home, not to mention his role in > torturing the Longbottoms.) > > To me, Unforgiveable is *not* synonymous with illegal. It relates > not to law but to religion or morality. So my question is, *who* > cannot forgive the use of these curses? Is it God, who is generally > outside the picture in the WW except for the evidence here and there > of an afterlife? Is it the WW as a whole? Suggestions or > explanations, anyone? > Nora responded: > That's a fascinating question, Carol--I'm glad you asked it straight > out. > My own thought is that it's an Unforgiveable offense towards the > sovereignty of another human being, and, as such, is Unforgiveable by anyone who holds that conception of human rights (which is not > dependent upon the existence of any divinity, but can accomodate > it). Carol: I think that's JKR's view, her reason for considering them Unforgiveable, especially given her emphasis on choice. But as far as I can see, the WW as a whole (including the wholly evil Barty Jr.) uses the term "Unforgiveable Curses," yet who have we seen besides Dumbledore (and maybe McGonagall or Lupin) who holds that view of human rights? Umbridge certainly doesn't, nor Barty Sr., nor Filch, if a Squib counts. (I won't bring in Snape because his views may not be what they seem.) The trials or hearings we've seen so far and the treatment of house-elves and the use of corporal punishment before DD became headmaster all seem to indicate that this conception of human rights is not widely held in the WW. Nora wrote: The WW has formalized it, but given their generally very weak formulations of ethics (that's another post, but they strike me as being remarkably weak in both moral and political philosophy as something that's valued in culture), I doubt many people have thought it through like that. To the general populace they're just extremely bad things, without (I suspect) a more subtle understanding of their kinship. Carol: I agree with you about the weak moral and political philosophy (see above). But do you think that "Unforgiveable Curses" is just a name they're given to distinguish them from less cruel and dangerous curses (it's legal and presumabley "ethical" to send your brother to St. Mungo's with an arm sprouting out of his head)? You could be right, but I'd like to think that someone with a sense of ethics gave them that name and that "Unforgiveable" means more than "extremely bad." I think it isn't just what you do to others by using them; it's what you have to do to *yourself* in order to perform them successfully that makes them really sinister. Consider Bellatrix. Was there ever a seed of good in her, as there was in her cousin Regulus, who also joined the DEs and found it not to his taste? We can't know when she became capable of casting a Crucio, but it seems she had to work to attain that level of cold malice. LV's star pupil, in her own view. Not a path that I want Harry to follow, whether or not it literally corrupts the soul. Carol From samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 21:53:48 2004 From: samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com (samwise_the_grey) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:53:48 -0000 Subject: Clue that Dumbledore and Harry had a previous relationship... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cerebella316" wrote: > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > I always thought this remark simply meant that--because he has let > Harry down, because he has failed in some ways, and because Harry > is so angry with him--DD is wondering if their close relationship > might be *over*. Comments? > > > Then Steffy07: > > OOTP was my favorite book of the series for many reasons, it was > dark, amusing, surprising and touching. I am a huge, HUGE, Lupin > and Sirius fan and was devasted at Sirius' death. But, the part of > the book that affected me the most was when DD is talking to Harry, > and Harry is expressing so much rage and frustration. I thought > that DD was scared that maybe Harry wouldn't forgive him. I don't > have my copy of OOTP in front of me, but I seem to recall him crying > (or getting teary-eyed) when he said why he didn't make Harry > prefect? Dumbledore loves Harry, and he has seen Harry suffer so > much, I think that he is worried that maybe their relationsihp might > suffer. > > With that being said, however, I always took that particular quote > to mean that LV could never know how much of a role DD had played in > shaping Harry's life while Harry was at Hogwarts. That he didn't > need to know how close they were even back in the SS/COS years. > > > Now Bella: > > I have to say that this was one of the most emotional HP scenes for > me. It really shows how much Harry hurts and how much Dumbledore > cares. It shows DD like a father who tried to do what was best for > Harry (and Sirius), but in fact chose to do what was worst! Happens > all the time in real life! > > And, personally, I think what DD meant with his remark about > Voldemort realizing their relationship is that DD was afraid > Voldemort would realize that Dumbledore loves Harry and use that to > his advantage (like he did when he possessed Harry and goaded > Dumbledore to kill him in Harry's body and Dumbledore couldn't do > it!) Knowing that DD loves HP could be a powerful weapon for LV. > (Heehee--all the abbrevations sound funny to read!) > > Also, I find it interesting that he alludes to a relationship with > Harry that Harry really hasn't come to realize and count on. Harry > *does not* turn to DD for support. He likes being "Dumbledore's > favorite boy," and he never wants DD to think him weak or scared or > crazy. So he actually often shies away from turning to DD for help. > > But I think Harry will now. I think the conversation that DD was > afraid would end their *relationship* will actually make it > stronger. (Or at least I hope it does!) > > ~Bella, who hopes beyond hope that Harry finally becomes comfortable > in turning to DD for support, now that Sirius is gone. If not DD, > then Lupin, or Mrs. Figg, or--God!--even Snape! Just someone!! Or > all of them! He's really going to need as much support as he can get! Now Samwise I dunno if I agree with you on that one Bella. Harry has confided in Dumbledore about things he wouldn't talk about with anyone else (being sorted to slytherin, seeing his Dad in POA). Does he go to the headmaster about everything? No, but he is (was??) a teacher Harry felt he could confide in and respected very much. Whether that will go away due to ill feelings on Harry's part remains to be seen. I wouldn't be surprised to see their relationship strained in book 6. Harry's more rebellious than ever and he'll listen to your advice, but he more than likely won't take it. Who knows, perhaps he'll be less head strong next year after what happened in the DOM. As for being "Dumbledore's boy" I've never seen Harry wanting to be a teacher's favorite student. Harry doesn't like to be vunerable in front of anybody, period. Although he has let his guard down with people he trusts (it's a short list). And he probably would have told DD about the voice in the wall had R&H not discourged him. Harry almost confided in Lupin a few times in POA but didn't because it involved rule breaking. He hasn't thought about going to Lupin since, but that could change since Lupin is knowledgable and approachable. The only problem perhaps is whether Lupin will actually be around to lend an ear. And Snape?? NEVER, EVER!!! Mrs. Figg...Nah. I should think the less they're seen together the better. I bet Figgy will get the ax eventually and leave the Dursley home vunerable at some point. Harry seems to become more susceptable to attack as the series progresses. Hogwart's may very well be the last safe haven he'll have...for awhile, then there won't be any. From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Apr 2 21:34:31 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:34:31 -0000 Subject: A simple-minded question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94988 Sylvia wrote: > > Does Harry owe a life-debt to Snape for saving his life in the first book? >>> Steve Bboy replied: >>>Snape did not save Harry. Snape TRIED to save Harry, but it was Hermione with her Flame Charm that actually saved him, although she saved him by an accidental twist of fate. So, if Harry has a life debt to anyone, it's Hermione.>> Ali: I actually wonder if in that instant whether Harry does owe a life debt to anyone. We know that Snape owed a life debt to James because James saved his life. James risked his life to save Snape. We know that Pettigrew owes a life debt to Harry because Harry saved his life. Arguably, Harry risked his life to save Pettigrew. "He ran forward, placing himself in front of Pettigrew, facing the wands" p. 275 PoA UK edition. At that moment, Sirius was so intent on killing Pettigrew that he might have been unable to stop himself firing off the curse. Harry took an enormous risk. Harry's life was under threat during that Quidditch match. Both Snape and Hermione ensured that no harm was done. But, neither risked their life to save him. I think that risk *must* be part of the ancient magic which seals the life debt. My feeling is that no life debt was formed then. Ali From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Apr 2 21:56:31 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:56:31 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses : what about Petrificus Totalus ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94989 x Del wrote: snip > Another point I've been bothered with is the use of some other curses > that have not been described as either unforgivable or even forbidden. > Petrificus Totalus, in particular, disturbs me a lot. It seems to me > that it should fall in the Unforgivable category as well, because : > 1. It annihilates one's freedom of action > 2. It can easily allow some horrendous crimes to be committed. snip Potioncat: This is something I've been trying to get a handle on for a while. There are a lot of hexes, jinxes, potions, etc that seem to have nothing but bad intentions. Yet, children are doing them! What must the adults know! And every book it seems we learn some new charm or magic. I've always wondered at what the Dark Arts were that Snape came to school knowing how to do. It seems to me that the Unforgivable Curses, however they may also fall into the WW morality/religion, are Legal Issues. I think, to summarize, I'm confused on this too. Potioncat From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Apr 2 22:07:27 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:07:27 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses : what about Petrificus Totalus ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94990 Del wrote: >>> Another point I've been bothered with is the use of some other curses that have not been described as either unforgivable or even forbidden. Petrificus Totalus, in particular, disturbs me a lot. It seems to me that it should fall in the Unforgivable category as well, because : 1. It annihilates one's freedom of action 2. It can easily allow some horrendous crimes to be committed. >>> Ali: I believe that the difference between this curse and the Unforgiveables is that it *can* be relatively easily blocked. This makes it very different from the others. I think that there are large number of curses which could kill, maim or cause untold damage or pain. But it is only the Unforgiveables that have the combination of intent, taking away self-determination and unblockability (for the majority of wizards, anyway). Ali From kcawte at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 2 21:48:45 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 22:48:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A simple-minded question References: Message-ID: <001201c418fc$45c52630$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 94991 > bboy_mn: > > We are dealing with a common misconception held by almost everybody; > in reality (fictional reality), Snape did not save Harry. Snape TRIED > to save Harry, but it was Hermione with her Flame Charm that actually > saved him, although she saved him by an accidental twist of fate. In > 'flaming' Snape, Quirrel was knocked over and that stopped the Jinx > that Quirrel was putting on Harry's broom. > > So, if Harry has a life debt to anyone, it's Hermione. > > K except of course that if it hadn't been for Snape and his counter charm Harry would have fallen well before Hermione was in a position to use her flame spell, possibly even before anyone realised there was a problem. So really he owes both of them. But I don't think the fall would necessarily have killed him - simply put him in the hospital wing - where he would be a lot more vulnerable to someone trying to kill him than in a dorm room with four other boys, plus assorted animals. My point being that if the fall wouldn't have killed him then neither of them actually saved his life so while he does owe them, it's not a life debt. K From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 22:09:22 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:09:22 -0000 Subject: Clue that Dumbledore and Harry had a previous relationship... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94992 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samwise_the_grey" wrote: > Harry almost confided in Lupin a few times in POA but didn't because > it involved rule breaking. He hasn't thought about going to Lupin > since, but that could change since Lupin is knowledgable and > approachable. Not only that, but often HP wouldn't approach Sirius because he was worried for his (Sirius') safety. Seeing how Lupin is the last of the MWPP crowd available, HP might well succumb to the temptation and actually seek his counsel. Which is a good thing, because Lupin is the most level-headed and clearest thinker available to HP *and* someone who has learned how to deal maturely with the consequences--good and bad--of his actions and choices. -Joe in SoFla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 22:59:26 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:59:26 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94993 I (Carol) wrote: > > >>> True, the uses to which Crouch!Moody put it in GoF appear > harmless enough (making Neville do acrobatics, etc.), but C!M was > nevertheless imposing his will on the students in violation of their > own self-determination. Moreover, C!M was able to perform the spell > because he had trained his will to the domination of others (to > borrow a Gandalfism). So none of these spells, IMO, can be performed > without evil intent.<<< > > Ali wrote: I am unsure how a "failed" curse would be perceived by the WW. For instance, Moody tells Harry's class that there must be considerable force behind an AK spell. If a child tries and fails, they must surely be guilty of attempted AK. (Still Ali:) > It is true that humans can get used to, and learn to take pleasure > in cruelty. I can imagine there being a WW belief that casting such > a curse would sully ones soul or somehow alter ones chemical makeup. > But, I believe that Harry will proof that this is not the case. I > still believe that if tried in a muggle court for casting the > Cruciatus curse, he would be found not guilty by reason of temporary > insanity. If he was temporarily out of his mind, is his soul ruined? > I think and hope not. I do agree that it was very significant that > Harry did place the cruciatus curse on Bella. It is also significant > that it didn't really work. In reality. although Harry tried to > perform the cruciatus curse, he was unsuccessful because he did not > have the necessary level of intent. Carol: I don't think that Harry or any child who cast a failed Unforgiveable Curse would be tried or prosecuted, or that the child's soul would be sullied by the *failed* attempt. Harry did not have the hatred or the cold indifference or the enjoyment of suffering required to cast a successful Cruciatus Curse, and I think and hope he learned that lesson. To me he resembles an angry teenager who's just been hit with a belt by an abusive parent and screams back, "I hat you! I wish you were dead!" and then does something to hurt the parent as much as possible, breaking a valued possession or even hitting back. This is a natural (if dangerous) response which could arguably be classified as righteous anger (Bellatrix's term for Harry's reaction). Bad analogy, perhaps, but I'm not arguing that the *failed* Crucio harmed Harry. As you say, "he did not have the necessary level of intent." But had it succeeded, I would have serious concerns about Harry's morality and sanity. He would have no qualms about casting other Unforgiveable Curses and would be well on his way to becoming another Tom Riddle. The book is about choices, mostly Harry's choices. And to make the choices that Tom made, to cast even one Unforgiveable Curse, would be to make him no better than Tom because, again, the spells cannot be cast without evil intent; otherwise they would be as forgiveable as any other curse. At best, Harry would be damaged goods, able to destroy LV but unable to live with himself afterwards because of what he had become. Whether Dumbldore would be able to forgive him is irrelevant. He would be, IMO, unable to forgive himself. Carol From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 22:16:37 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:16:37 -0000 Subject: Anyone think that Harry will start using the penseive for his own thoughts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94994 vmonte here: Does anyone think that Harry will start using the penseive to take a look at his own thoughts? If the penseive really does let you see memories objectively and from different view points wouldn't it make sense that Harry should try looking at those memories through the penseive's point of view?! I wonder what he would see if he placed the memories having to do with the endings of book 1-5? It might be a good idea to see the MOM fight at the end of OOTP from a distance. I wonder if Ron will use it since he is the strategist (chess game) of the group. Would this be a good way to see how the enemy is working? Just a thought! vmonte From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Apr 2 23:14:08 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 23:14:08 -0000 Subject: No one was to blame... I think. In-Reply-To: <99.450f91a1.2d9e5670@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Batchevra at a... wrote: > Actually Lupin is not calm, > > Page 252, POA UK version. > > Then Lupin spoke, in an odd voice, a voice that shook with some supressed > emotion. "Where is he, Sirius?" > > I would say he was rattled. > He was emotional when he got there. But a few pages later he's calm again. He doesn't seem startled by Snape's arrival, though Harry is shocked, Sirius jumps and Hermione screams. Then he doesn't remember or react to the news that he hasn't had his potion. And how is it that though he talks about being a werewolf for quite a while, he doesn't seem to realize it's the full moon and he's going to transform soon? Either he's far more rattled than he appears to be, in which case he's an excellent actor, or there's something really fishy going on (and he's an excellent actor). Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 23:25:44 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 23:25:44 -0000 Subject: A simple-minded question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94996 Sylvia wrote: Does Harry owe a life-debt to Snape for saving his life in the first book? >>> Steve Bboy replied: >>>Snape did not save Harry. Snape TRIED to save Harry, but it was Hermione with her Flame Charm that actually saved him, although she saved him by an accidental twist of fate. So, if Harry has a life debt to anyone, it's Hermione.>> Ali responded: I actually wonder if in that instant whether Harry does owe a life debt to anyone. We know that Snape owed a life debt to James because James saved his life. James risked his life to save Snape. We know that Pettigrew owes a life debt to Harry because Harry saved his life. Arguably, Harry risked his life to save Pettigrew. "He ran forward, placing himself in front of Pettigrew, facing the wands" p. 275 PoA UK edition. At that moment, Sirius was so intent on killing Pettigrew that he might have been unable to stop himself firing off the curse. Harry took an enormous risk. Harry's life was under threat during that Quidditch match. Both Snape and Hermione ensured that no harm was done. But, neither risked their life to save him. I think that risk *must* be part of the ancient magic which seals the life debt. My feeling is that no life debt was formed then. Carol: Interesting perspective, Ali. I like the idea of ancient magic sealing the bond. Do you have any canon for that, or is just an analogy to Lily's self-sacrifice? (I think she placed a charm on Harry, but that's another thread.) Anyway, if you're right about risk being involved, then Snape can't have been trying to pay off his life debt to James in the quidditch scene, as I previously thought. In order to repay that annoying life debt, he'll have to risk his life to save Harry. So I still think that saving Harry (and incidentally Hermione and Ron) from a werewolf and a murderer was one of his many motives in rushing after Lupin in the Shrieking Shack scene, but trying to save him from Quirrell was for the cause (loyalty to Dumbledore and keeping Harry alive for the final confrontation with LV). Carol, who still wonders what the consequences are of dying with a lifedebt unpaid From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 23:41:40 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 23:41:40 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses : what about Petrificus Totalus ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > x > Del wrote: > snip > > Another point I've been bothered with is the use of some other > curses > > that have not been described as either unforgivable or even > forbidden. > > Petrificus Totalus, in particular, disturbs me a lot. It seems to > me > > that it should fall in the Unforgivable category as well, because : > > 1. It annihilates one's freedom of action > > 2. It can easily allow some horrendous crimes to be committed. > snip > > Potioncat: > This is something I've been trying to get a handle on for a while. > There are a lot of hexes, jinxes, potions, etc that seem to have > nothing but bad intentions. Yet, children are doing them! What must > the adults know! And every book it seems we learn some new charm or > magic. I've always wondered at what the Dark Arts were that Snape > came to school knowing how to do. > > It seems to me that the Unforgivable Curses, however they may also > fall into the WW morality/religion, are Legal Issues. > > I think, to summarize, I'm confused on this too. > Potioncat Carol: Part of it, I think, is that hexes and jinxes are easily reversible and will wear off quickly on their own. The counterjinxes are also, evidently, easily mastered, at least by Hermione. More important, the hexes and jinxes don't require a desire to dominate, torture or kill--just momentary revenge or spite--or keeping a friend from following you if you're determined to do a little rule-breaking (Hermione hexing Neville in Book 1). The Unforgiveable Curses, according to our two DE experts, Bellatrix and Crouch!Moody, are complex and difficult. They require practice, power, and cold hatred or indifference to another person's humanity. They are the tools of Death Eaters and other criminals--or corrupt aurors and administrators like Crouch Sr., who have succumbed to their enemy's values and methods. I do think there's way too much hexing and jinxing going on in the book, especially in the Hogwarts Express on the way home (why is no adult present? Are they only deterred from performing similar hexes in the school corridors by fear of detention? Good thing Snape is there!) and I do think that teaching children hexes and jinxes (or allowing them to learn such nasty little tricks) reflects a different set of values than out own. But you can't do permanent harm with Petrificus Totalis (unless you use it to immobilize your opponent and do something else to him, like modifying his memory). Even then, apparently, it wouldn't be a crime. (Shouldn't Lockhart be in Azkaban for modifying all those memories? But in his case, intent and results, rather than a spell that's evil in itself, would be what mattered.) Carol, who's still certain that the Unforgiveable Curses are Unforgiveable for a reason From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 2 22:24:41 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:24:41 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses : what about Petrificus Totalus ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94998 Del wrote: >>> Another point I've been bothered with is the use of some other curses that have not been described as either unforgivable or even forbidden. Petrificus Totalus, in particular, disturbs me a lot. It seems to me that it should fall in the Unforgivable category as well, because : 1. It annihilates one's freedom of action 2. It can easily allow some horrendous crimes to be committed. >>> Then Ali wrote: > I believe that the difference between this curse and the > Unforgiveables is that it *can* be relatively easily blocked. This > makes it very different from the others. > > I think that there are large number of curses which could kill, > maim or cause untold damage or pain. But it is only the > Unforgiveables that have the combination of intent, taking away > self-determination and unblockability (for the majority of > wizards, anyway). Siriusly Snapey Susan now: Excellent questions, Del, and an equally excellent answer, Ali. I think your answer takes care of about all of Del's concern. But *before* reading this post, I was going to say that I think there ARE many other spells which *could* get someone a life sentence in Azkaban, but that they're simply not the "givens" that the Unforgivables are. That is, there might be ways/times in which these other spells could be used such that the intent is not really to harm. For instance, what was that spell used to "hover" Snape called [leaving the Shrieking Shack in PoA]?? It could be used as it was-- to more easily transport an unconscious person [though, granted, it also allowed some folks a few grins at Snape's head-knocking on the ceiling ;-)], but it seems to me it could also be used to immobilize a person or prevent him from doing something he wants to do. The latter case has the intent of taking away self-determination, whereas the former is actually a spell of convenience or assistance. I guess I'm trying to argue that while the Unforgivables are [almost!] always grounds for life in prison, some other spells could also get a wizard life in prison *but* might also be used in a totally innocuous manner, so they're not called Unforgivable. The Unforgivables--even if we grant them "okay" status as a teaching tool in DADA--could never otherwise be described as being available for use in a totally innocuous manner. Am I making any sense? Siriusly Snapey Susan From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 20:45:22 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:45:22 -0000 Subject: Being an animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 94999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amycrn4230" wrote: > This is my first post, so hello all... > > > Here is my question...In the chat with JKR recently she says that a > person who studies to be an animagus cannot choose what they are to > become, and in the PoA, I got the impression that the boys picked > their animals in order to be big enough to "control" the werewolf > (Remus)??? .... > How did a stag fit in that tiny passageway to the shrieking shack? > ... > > AmyC bboy_mn: JKR has said more than once that you can't pick your animagus form, but I have a theory... The animagus process is long and difficult, and it's very very possible that your resulting animal might be worthless. What if you animal form was a worm? Hardly worth the risky process if all you are in the end is a worm. So, I theories that as part of the animagus process, you are able to find out in advance what your animal for will be. Then you can decide if you want to continue with the process. As far as Sirius and James animal forms, they do fit their personalities, and I think once they found out what everyone's form would be, they strategized to determine how they could best use those forms to achieve their end. As it turned out two of the three (James and Sirius) were big enough that they dared leave the Shrieking Shack because they were confident they could control a werewolf. If they had other forms, weaker animal forms, then perhaps leaving the Shrieking Shack wouldn't have been an option. Again, they simply used the animal forms the recieve to their best advantage. Other form would have indicated other strategies and other courses of action. I think other's have answered your 'tunnel' question, I will expand on what they said. First we don't know for a fact that James, the largest animal, actually went through the tunnel as a Stag. Perhaps, he went through as a human with Sirius-the dog in the lead. Sirius went into the Shack first to control Lupin while James transformed at the Shack end of the tunnel or in the Shack itself. Later, when they left the Shack on their monthly adventures, there would be no need for James go into the Shack at all. He could just meet everyone else in the forest, and the adventure could continue from there. How do I know all this? Well... I don't. I just make it up as I go along, but I DO try to make up things that are likely. Many things are possible but few are likely. Just a thought. bboy_mn From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Apr 3 00:14:07 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 00:14:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's next potion class was Re: Luna's importance to the series. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 95000 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > I'm also hoping that Harry will finally have a class that includes >some Ravenclaws. I'm betting that it will be N.E.W.T. Potions. > I had an intriguing thought. What if Harry *doesn't* make it into NEWT potions? JKR has hinted he might have some problems. http://www.msn.co.uk/liveevents/harrypotter/transcript/ "During this reading you might get a hint of what might stand in his way of becoming an Aura [sic] apart from The Ministry's current attitude toward to him, he needs a qualification that can be quite difficult to get so here we go . " Suppose he needs to repeat 5th year potions in order to get another crack at the OWL (admittedly we don't know if that's possible). But that would put him in Gryffindor 5th year potions... with Ginny. Pippin From kkearney at students.miami.edu Fri Apr 2 22:13:55 2004 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:13:55 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables Curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 95002 Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: > I'm wondering, too, about what Bella told Harry about really having > to MEAN it for [the Cruciatus Curse] to work. Maybe that was true; > maybe it wasn't & > she was toying w/ his confidence. But maybe it's that it's true >*for > that particular unforgivable*--Crucio!--and not necessarily for all > three. It seems pretty likely you'd need to MEAN it for AK as >well. > But maybe Imperio! is easier to cast? Maybe that's why Crouch! >Moody > [presumably w/ DD's approval] allowed the students to practice > Imperio! without getting into trouble? I mean, if it's the one of > the three curses which we know you can shake OFF w/ practice, maybe > it's also simpler to cast? I beleive that one has to "really mean it" to cast any spell. However, I think this refers to the process of casting the spell rather than the outcome. For a difficult charm, this means that one has to be concentrating entirely on casting the spell, without being distracted by thoughts of the outcome. When Harry tried to cast the Cruciatus Curse, he wasn't thinking about the spell itself. He was thinking about Sirius and Bellatrix and his guilt and hurt and anger. I'm certain that at that moment, he really, truly meant to hurt Bellatrix. But he was concentrating too much on the outcome to concentrate on the process, and therefore was unsuccessful in sustaining the charm. We seem a similar thing take place when Harry casts the Patronus Charm at the beginning of OoP. During his first two attempts, he truly wanted the charm to work. However, his mind was wandering all over the place (How did the dementors get there? How many are there? Where's Dudley? How can this be happening? etc.) It was only when he had almost given up hope, and let himself concentrate completely on the single thought of his friends, that he was able to properly create a patronus. With regards to the Cruciatus Curse, this would imply that the ones who are best at it are those who aren't intent on causing their victims pain. Makes sense, doesn't it? No? :) Actually, it does to me. Many people have commented that they can think of no circumstances where a person would cast the Cruciatus curse without truly meaning harm. But take, for example, a normal, good witch or wizard who experiences some trauma, and for a short time, maybe just a moment, feels the need to hurt someone terribly. It certainly happens in the real world; why not the wizarding world? However, said average witch or wizard would be concentrating on his or her own pain and the pain he or she would like at the moment to inflict on the victim. As a result, he or she would probably not be successful. On the other hand, we have DEs like Bellatrix, who think nothing of casting the curse. To them, causing great pain to another is no cause for concern. They cast the curse without the connected emotions that most people would feel. No guilt, no anger, just indifference, and as a result, they are very good at it. -Corinth From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 22:14:45 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:14:45 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lucius - same person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 95003 > Sylvia wrote: > > Even if Homer had nodded and JKR had missed the scene with Snape and > > Lucius together at the quidditch match, would she have allowed two > > different actors to play these characters?. Jason Isaacs and Alan > > Rickman are fairly alike to look at, but not to that extent. > > Sylvia (reluctantly partingwith the idea of Snape as Draco's dad.) > > Del : > I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My original proposal was that > someone, either Lucius or Snape, is some kind of Metamorphagus and is > now playing both roles. But of course, he would play each role in the > appropriate "costume" ie body. I commented on the fact that though > Lucius and Snape *look* very different, they *act* very alike, and I > asked if we have any canon stating that they clearly cannot be one and > the same. I don't even call that a theory, because it's so improbable. > I'm just wondering. > > Del, who missed the Homer reference, sorry Carol: IIRC, "Homer nodded" (i.e. fell asleep) refers to an inconsistency in the Iliad, rather like a JKR Flint. I'll try to find some concrete evidence beyond Malfoy's presumed residency in Azkaban to refute the idea, but right now I'm just looking at the implications. Lucius performed the counter-jinx against Quirrell in the Quidditch match and questioned Quirrell's loyalty to Dumbledore? Lucius wrote that lovely logical riddle to keep Quirrell away from the sorceror's/philosopher's stone? Snape got into a fistfight with Arthur Weeasley and dropped the diary into Ginny's cauldron, but pretended not to know about the basilisk petrifying the students? Snape was with Draco on Platform 9 3/4 and saw Sirius in dog form and then pretends to Sirius that Lucius saw him? Snape (who can't apparate from Hogwarts) was absent from the graveyard but Lucius was present? (Unless LV knows that Snape and Lucius are one and the same, the one LV believes will not return would have to be someone else entirely.) Lucius made the potion that tamed werewolf Lupin during the full moon? Lucius showed Fudge his Dark Mark and then was sent by DD out into darkness and danger to do what? (I thought it was to explain to Lucius why he hadn't been in the graveyard.) Snape jingled coins in his pocket and bribed Fudge in the MoM? Lucius had memories of Snape's childhood that Harry glimpsed during the Occlumency lession? I know that these examples don't disprove your idea, but they would certainly spoil the lovely distinction between the complex, mysterious yet ill-tempered Snape, who rejected the Death Eaters and opposes LV, and the "bad Dark Wizard" Lucius (Dobby's term), who opposes DD and expresses his loyalty to LV, leading the raid on the MoM. Yes, Lucius is probably more complex than he appears to be, but I don't think there's an ounce of good in him. If he's on any side other than LV's, it's his own. Snape is definitely complex without the additional complication of being a metamorphagus, a former DE on the side of good despite a natural inclination in the other direction. I think the similarities between Snape and Lucius serve the same purpose as the similarities between Snape and Sirius. The characters are foils to each other: two men in similar circumstances, brought up with similar (Slytherin) values (and similar speech patterns), who made different choices. Does that work, or do you still think they might be the same person? Carol From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Apr 3 00:18:19 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 00:18:19 -0000 Subject: Harry's next potion class was Re: Luna's importance to the series. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 95004 Pippin wrote: Suppose he needs to repeat 5th year potions in order to get another crack at the OWL (admittedly we don't know if that's possible). But that would put him in Gryffindor 5th year potions... with Ginny. vmonte responds: Wow! I love the way you think Pippin. How humiliating would that be for Harry. Might be the thing he needs to get him to take his classes more seriously. vmonte From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Apr 3 00:20:30 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 00:20:30 -0000 Subject: A simple-minded question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 95005 Sylvia: Does Harry owe a life-debt to Snape for saving his life in the first book? >>> Steve: Snape did not save Harry. Snape TRIED to save Harry, but it was Hermione with her Flame Charm that actually saved him, although she saved him by an accidental twist of fate. So, if Harry has a life debt to anyone, it's Hermione. Neri: A bit of canon: SS/PS, Ch. 17: Harry couldn't take it in. This couldn't be true, it couldn't. "But Snape tried to kill me!" "No, no, no. I tried to kill you. Your friend Miss Granger accidentally knocked me over as she rushed to set fire to Snape at that Quidditch match. She broke my eye contact with you. Another few seconds and I'd have got you off that broom. I'd have managed it before then if Snape hadn't been muttering a counter-curse, trying to save you." So Harry would have fallen if not for Snape. However, we have also: SS/PS, Ch. 17: "Yes " said Dumbledore dreamily. "Funny, the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father quits. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace " So it seems that Snape considers saving Harry from the fall as settling his debt to James, not as Harry owing him a debt. However (again), doesn't Snape owe a debt for Harry because future!Harry saved Snape (together with Harry himself, Ron and Hermione) from the dementors in PoA? It doesn't seem likely that the dementors would have kissed the kids but spare Snape only because he was stunned. Of course, Snape doesn't know it was Harry who saved him (unless DD told him later), so this whole debt thing becomes even more complicated. I'd rather see it as if both Snape and Harry owing each other a debt that can never be repayed. Neri From wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk Sat Apr 3 00:18:26 2004 From: wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk (Wildean) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 01:18:26 +0100 Subject: Fidelius (long, contains spoilers for PoA and OtP) Message-ID: <02bb01c41911$34fab300$90fa4f51@b5c9d5> No: HPFGUIDX 95006 'Fudge dropped his voice and proceeded in a sort of low rumble. "Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once. He advised them to go into hiding. Well, of course, You-Know-Who wasn't an easy person to hide from. Dumbledore told them that their best chance was the Fidelius Charm." "How does that work?" said Madam Rosmerta, breathless with interest. Professor Flitwick cleared his throat. "An immensely complex spell," he said squeakily, "involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!"' (from "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban") >From this discussion, we know that the Potters were concealed by the Fidelius Charm. We've also discovered that the Secret-Keeper for the Potter family was changed at the last minute from Sirius Black to Peter Pettigrew, with tragic results. While they were hidden under the Fidelius charm, I assue that the Potters (Lily, James and Harry) were confined to their hiding place. It would be of no use using such an "immensely complex spell" if you nipped out for a bag of chips on Saturday night, allowing anyone you met - whether Muggles, Wizards, Death Eaters or You-Know-Whom (good grammar is everything!) to watch you adding the salt and vinegar. The Secret that was being hidden inside Pettigrew's soul was that the Potters were hiding in [whatever address] in Godric's Hollow. Presumably, other than the Potters and Peter Pettigrew, not one single person would be aware of where they were. When the spell was cast, I assume that anyone who had known where they were would instantly forget. Naturally, it would be of prime importance that You-Know-Whom didn't find out where the Potters were hiding, otherwise he would kill them. At first, Sirius was selected to be the Secret-Keeper, but at his instigation, they changed their minds and chose Peter, because Sirius was the obvious choice, and You-Know-Whom would be sure to go after him first. Lupin wasn't told of the change, in case he was spying for You-Know-Whom. It makes sense for as few people as possible to know who the Secret-Keeper was. Even Dumbledore didn't know that Peter had been chosen. Put yourself in their place for a moment. It's 1981. You want to go into hiding. You need a Secret-Keeper. Whom do you choose? Dumbledore - too much on his plate already. Sirius - too obvious, plus Lupin thinks he may be a spy. (at the end of "PoA" they apologised to each other for suspecting this.) Lupin - Sirius thinks he may be a spy. Others - (I'm speculating here that maybe Lily and James don't want to [put at] risk people they arent sure of, or aren't as close to) Which leaves Peter. If Lupin and Sirius suspect each other, then isn't there the slightest doubt in your mind that maybe Peter is a spy? I know who I'd choose. What's wrong with James or Lily? If you need to keep a secret in the most secure way possible, then why not keep the identity of the secret keeper as part of the secret to be kept (or if that's getting too self-referential, make James the primary Secret-Keeper concealing thelocation of the Potters) and perform another charm to let Lily keep the secret of the identity of the first secret-keeper. That way, if Peer goes to You-Know-Whom, he can't betray them. Nor can anyone else. Unless James or Lily divulge the fact that they are hiding in Godric's Hollow, they quite simply are completely and utterly safe. Of course then You-Know-Whom wouldn't be (almost) killed, Harry wouldn't be the boy who lived, and we'd all be talking about a completely different set of books. As my mother would put it, "If my auntie had balls, she'd be my uncle." Actually, now I come to think of it, there must be something we're not being told about the Fidelius charm. As we know, "The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it." Dumbledore has used the Fidelius charm to conceal 12 Grimmauld Place, particularly in its aspect as the HQ-Quarters of the Order of the Phoenix. Presumably, members of the Order of the Phoenix know where they're based, as part of the secret that's being Kept. But if anyone outside the Order finds out, then the secret is divulged and the place is no longer protected by the Fidelius charm. But there are several non-members of the Order of the Phoenix who know all about 12 Grimauld Place, and the fact that it's the Order's HQ. Namely Harry Potter, Ron, Fred, George and Ginny Weasley, Hermione Granger, Kreacher, Mrs Black's portrait. I'd say pretty much that constitutes divulgence. In that case, what's protecting 12 Grimmauld Place now? Wildean From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 2 22:32:31 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:32:31 -0000 Subject: Clue that Dumbledore and Harry had a previous relationship... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 95007 samwise_the_grey at y... wrote: > > Harry almost confided in Lupin a few times in POA but didn't > > because it involved rule breaking. He hasn't thought about going > > to Lupin since, but that could change since Lupin is > > knowledgable and approachable. Joe added: > Not only that, but often HP wouldn't approach Sirius because he > was worried for his (Sirius') safety. Seeing how Lupin is the last > of the MWPP crowd available, HP might well succumb to the > temptation and actually seek his counsel. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Or on the other hand, *because* Lupin is the last of the MWPP crowd, Harry might decide to avoid seeking his counsel, precisely out of fear of endangering him [Lupin]. Harry doesn't exactly have the best track record re: those he cares about/who care about him, and whether he is or isn't to "blame" for what's happened to those people, HE [Harry] feels that he is. Siriusly Snapey Susan...who **hopes** Harry learns to confide in someone, preferably DD or Lupin From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Sat Apr 3 00:52:23 2004 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 00:52:23 -0000 Subject: Tying things up with Iggy. (a forwarded post) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 95008 Hi, all! Am sending this on behalf of Iggy, who's having a few computer problems at the moment, as he says below. --Kelley ~~~~~~~~ Iggy here: I haven't been able to sound off on the list much lately due in part because of my current class and watching my daughter both taking up a significant amount of my mental energy, and massive problems with my computer. (Gateway is sending me a replacement chassis for my laptop.) I was thinking earlier today about JKR's penchant for names that sound like other words. "Diagon Alley" sounding like "diagonally" (and actually going off at an angle from Charing Cross Road), "Knockturn Alley" being "nocturnally" and being shrouded in shadows. Well, carrying this off into the theory that there is a "good Slytherin", I think I have deciphered who it would be: Theodore Nott. His name actually works in two different directions, which (if the overlying theories of the "good Slytherin" and the rhyming names having significance are correct) is too solid for me not to think it's him. First off, his last name (as someone else who's name escapes me ATM theorized) sounds like "not", meaning that he's "not" an evil Slytherin. Second off, the houses are supposed to come together and be unified (or "bound" together, if you will) in order to survive the coming storm. I think that Nott will be the "knot" that will tie, or bind, the Houses together somehow. This may be either in transferring to another House, or simply turning against the standard Slytherin form of behavior and actually making friends with some members of the DA, the Significant Six (as I will dub those who were in the Ministry mission), or other members of households other than their own. Any opinions about this theory? Iggy McSnurd From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 2 18:43:56 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 19:43:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Unforgivable Curses References: <1080914370.6775.55353.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004901c418e2$74baef20$9b4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 95010 Delwyn wondered: >So why does the WW, which is usually notably more lenient on moral >matters than the Real World, think that those 3 Curses are >Unforgivable ? > >But as some have pointed out, what about the teachers who >demonstrate the UC to their students ? What about the Aurors who use >them on bad guys ? Does the fact that they manage to perform them >signal that their hearts have turned irremediably evil, and if so, >should they still be allowed to teach/chase criminals ? Which ties into another angle which came to me the other day, while musing idly on the practical uses of the various branches of magic in workplace settings in the WW (basically I came to the fairly unremarkable conclusion that an industrial-type wizard would rely fairly heavily on Charms while a farmer would have a lot to do with Potions). But then I began wondering about whether AK was equally Unforgiveable if it's used to slaughter animals. Compared to the ways in which we kill them in our world, it seems considerably more humane. And I recall previous threads in which we discussed any number of practical uses for Imperio... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From gordonandjulie at worldnet.att.net Fri Apr 2 17:39:21 2004 From: gordonandjulie at worldnet.att.net (tooncescat1990) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:39:21 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wizardry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 95011 Hello to All- I lurk infrequently, but finally decided to ask this question (after checking the VFAQ file and trying the archives to no avail) I hope this isn't a subject that's been done to death, but I've been wondering since CoS why Hagrid isn't allowed to practice magic anymore. We know it was Tom Riddle, not Hagrid who killed Myrtle. Okay, now perhaps we had to wait to have everyone Fudge and all his lackeys SEE Voldemort, but does anyone want to speculate about whether Hagrid will be allowed to go to Olivander's and get a new wand...? Julie From pt4ever at yahoo.com Sat Apr 3 01:20:50 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 01:20:50 -0000 Subject: Fidelius (long, contains spoilers for PoA and OtP) In-Reply-To: <02bb01c41911$34fab300$90fa4f51@b5c9d5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 95012 Wildean wrote: <<