Stepping even further into the Quagmire...

[Silverthorne]

No: HPFGUIDX 94908

Okay....since my points seem to have gotten a little muddy here...probably because I let myself get sidetracked, I'll lay down my opinions here. I know many of you do not agree with me, either in whole or in part, and that's fine. I'm not participating in order to make converts, or to have a battle royale about morals and who is 'right' or 'wrong' in the series--I'm more interested in just talking out possibiIities. Remember, please that these are *opinions*. More importantly, they are opinions about fictional characters, so although some of the characters I (like the rest of you) would not tolerate (or at least not tolerate certain actions from them) should I meet them, as literary characters, I can appreaciate them from a slightly different angle and in a different light then I would from real people. I suppose that I should make that clear...they aren't real, so although I enjoy the books, laugh and cry and curse and cheer just like other readers....I don't expect a fully 'real world' experince, so I make allowances that would not be very cool otherwise in my eyes if this were all real.

 I realize my mistake in the whole 'Sergeant Snape' thing was in abandoning Snape (and his part in regards to Harry) completely in order to explain the military (with help from my life mate), and not really link it back to story (which ended up happening anyway through other people), even though I did make a few feeble attempts.

So....here's the points I was trying to make overall (Gonna leave the military angle out this time).

Remember, these are just my opinions...like the rest of you, I am niether omniscent nor the author of the series...this is *just* what *I* get out of the books...everyone else will get something different out of it. That's the beauty of being individual human beings.

The main point (and the one I'm getting into the most trouble for right now), is that we most often take an unbalanced view of the characters. An *example* of this is 'Sirius has better reason than Snape to be as he is because he was in prison, and we haven't seen Snape go through anything truly horrible yet'. Although that is perfectly 'good' logic, especially if you can relate to Sirius better than Snape (for *whatever* reason--I don't think we need to hash over Snape's numerous faults yet again to agree on this), it still invalidates Snape's side of it (good or bad). As Del pointed out, this is not really fair--*everyone* has things that make them good and/or bad, everyone has had extrememly painful experiences in their lives that are exactly that--extremely painful--*to them*--and Rowling applies that fact to her characters. It doesn't, however, make thier side (or the other person's side) any less or more important. It just makes it their side.

To another person, whatever the experince was may not even be a factor as to whether or not it would be considered painful, either because the situation would not bother them, or they have not been in that situation themselves. Either way, the character who does *Not* have that painful situation happen to them may not have a sympathetic viewpoint. However, it does not make the person who suffered through that situation, no matter what it was, have any less of a valid claim to let that situation affect them somehow. We as the audience may not like it, understand it, or agree...but it is still *valid*. So, yes, Snape has as good a reason to be as he is, as Sirius does to be as he is. Or Harry has to be as he is...or any of the characters have to be as they are. We may not know what it is, we may not agree, we may not even *know* the reasons yet. At any rate, all of them deserve benefit of the doubt, there is more there then meets the eye, if only because Rowling has not finished the series yet. 

Snape may turn out to be as irredeemably evil and nasty as some think he is...or he may turn out to be one of the 'goodest' (is that a word?) characters of the book (Yes, I know, not likely, but I'm just trying to illustrate something here, not insist that he *IS* that good...besides, the thought of him smiling, being polite and wearing pastels at the end of all this makes my teeth itch....In fact, I think I need to go take a Benadryl before I go on...BRB...^^;).

The same can go for Sirius...we know more about him than about Snape, but we don't know everything. I would love to find out Sirius's only 'fault' was an unreasoning hatred and treatment of 'bad' people (Snape and Kreacher, and others 'like' them), but we do have hints that it was more far reaching than that, at least in his teen years (Just ask Lupin). Hopefully, though, it was just the typical teen male who had everything and thinks he owns the world attitude...that can be grown out of. And maybe he did, before Azkaban...but we don't see that either yet--his adult personna echoes his teen one as far as we can see. Still, I am willing to say Sirius is brave, loyal (nay, *DEVOTED*), and most definetely on the 'good guys' side. NO argument there. But he went against a few things that *I* felt a 'hero', no matter how damaged he may be, should know better then to do. He hates seeing it when other people do it...so why isn't he smart enough to see it in himself and change it? And, believe it or not, that's where I give (or gave) Sirius far more credit then Snape until the fifth book--Sirius is smart, kind, and a **good guy**. He has a brain, and *Should* be able to do the one thing Snape cannot--look inside himself, see where the 'flaw' is, and fix it, despite Azkaban. Actaully, because of it. If he can hold himself together in that place, surely he can apply that same wit, iron will, and clarity to himself?

But, again, that's just my own personal beef and opinion. And it will likely change as soon as Rowling gives us more backstory on Sirius...I'm sure there's far more 'good' to him than 'bad'...but at the moment, I don't have that information. So what I'm left with is a reader's disappointment that he wasn't as 'good' as I thought he was...don't worry, I'll get over it...maybe even before the next book comes out. But I still think it was crummy that he was a bully...and it makes me more inclined to defend Snape...because that was where the 'nasty' part of Sirius was focused...I have to wonder who started what...and who insisted on continuing it. For all we know, Sirius *did* start it...(Remember, it was he and James who were picking on Snape in that scene, not because he attacked them, but, because "Well, it's more the idea that he *exists*") By the same token, it might have been Snape...although I'm less inclined to believe it thanks to that scene. Truthfully, it was probably a mutual thing--both sides starting in on *each other*. No 'victims', just a mutual and all-encompassing anathama. I don't expect others to agree....but that is where I am on that...

Harry....well, all I can say about Harry is that I started out wholly empathetic with him...his life with the Durselys had parallels with what I went through with my mother. I understood this poor, unloved, abused, *imprisoned* kid. Like everyone else, I wanted to take him aside and just hug the daylights out of him. Poor kid...and it didn't get better as the books went on. Oh no, it got worse. Murdered parents, a psychotic asshole killer who wants to take over the world wanting to kill him...people liking him, not for who he was, but 'what' he was...and then turning on him at a moments notice, as the fickle followers of the 'flavor of the month' club either found something else to like, or discovered his 'faults', thanks to Rita Skeeter. I really do feel sorry for him. I hated Snape right along with him too (yes, I did). 

And then Harry started growing up...he still has these problems...but now he has friends (something I really did not have until my twenties and I learned to trust people for real), an adoptive family in the Weasleys, adults who look out for him (granted, they don't hold his hand at every turn, but if they had, the book would be more about healing Harry then the situation of dealing with Voldemort--which is, after all, the point of this whole story arc), and even a good reputation among people who know better than to believe everything the Daily Prophet churns out. He's young, he's still wounded....but he's strong. Very strong....and smart. And yet....well, you know the list. Doesn't listen....won't talk to people when he needs help...chews on his friends...so on and so forth. Yes, he's young (but getting older), he's been through hell...but like Sirius, he has a brain...I just wish Rowling would let him use it a little. I still like the kid...I'm still routing for him, but knowing that he's in a postion...a bad one...where quite frankly, he doesn't have the luxury of *being* a kid...I keep wanting to find an extractor for his cranium-in-posterior problem. Unlike the potions master, Harry *needs* to be clear...and, by the same token, I have no doubt he will be when he needs to be...I suppose my 'crime' against Harry is that I expect him to be stronger than he is...more mature...more...disciplined. If only because I feel he'll need it for the final fight with Ol Moldy Voldy. I just want to see it develop a lot sooner then when that time comes....

As for RL...if I gave the impression that I felt any of your opinions were invalid in any way, I do apologize. That was not my intent. Like most people, there are times I do not express myself clearly. Please understand that.. I am sorry for any cause I may have given for that assumption to be made. Any crow you would like me to eat can be sent to my email address. Just please, remember the salsa and guacamole, or I'll never be able to get it down...^^;

Most of my frustration with this discussion has been that the broader issues were ignored for the sake of nitpicking little things--Yes, we *all* know Snape is obnoxious and mean (and not the man we would want teaching our children--except maybe to teach them that there *are* mean people on the planet, here is one, and this is what you should do to try and deal with him...), especially to Harry. Even Snape's defenders agree to that...Just as we all *know* that Sirius was a bit immature and did a few things that, to be put kindly, were unwise, and just as we all know Harry, no matter what the reasons are, is going through a very angry time right now, and it's making it very hard for the kid to think and function well. Again....they all have valid reasons. And the people onlist defending each of them have valid reasons as well. So I suppose the frustration comes from the 'yes, but....' responce that is the  most common start of any disagreement (And I'm just as guilty of it, although I've been tryng lately to keep all things on an equal footing). 

Now, before everyone picks up thier '____ for President" banners (so to speak) for thier favs, let me make this statement--because it is at the crux of what I have been trying to say from the beginning.

*ALL* of these characters have both good points and bad. Some are obvious, some not so much. All of them have done good things (individual motives set aside--they all really *have* done good things), all of them have done questionable things, and all of them have done truly abominable things. Again, lay aside the motives, and I think we can all agree on this. We still may not *like* a certain character, due do other flaws we percieve in them, but I think we *can* agree on that--no matter which character it is...and that's all I'm really after...that acknowledgement. The nitpicking and moral judgements, one way or another, are just window dressing each of us bring to the discussion, based on individual emotions, values, experiences, and moral expectations. Just as we'll each pick a few characters to defend (often at the exspence of another), even if we happen to like *all* of them...

Well...at least for a few exceptions...most of which are the likes of Umbridge, Crouch, DE, Voldy himself, ect...^^;

Anyway, I hope I managed to make myself a little clearer without offending anyone this time around **crosses fingers**

For the record:
I am not a pacifist, but I don't like war, and wish we didn't need a military. By the same token, I understand the need for one...and the need to defend oneself.
 
If my child had a teacher like Snape, I would be paying close attention to the class, but would not withdraw my child from the class unless it was obvious that they are not receiving the grades they should be receiving (Of course, I would be doing homework with my child, speaking with the teachers on a regular basis, and taking advantage of open houses and the like, so hopefully I would catch this). If it turned out that it was merely verbal, I would work on giving my child the tools to stand up to the teacher and keep a healthy self repsect despite the damned bastard (although hopefully I would have *already* been doing this for my child since it is one of my primary duties as a mother)--because someday, my child *will* run into another person just like this--better they know how to deal with them sooner then later because you can not run away from all your 'enemies'...there's always 'one more Snape' right around the corner...if it turned out to be more than verbal--including unfair grading and abuse, my child would be out of there quicker than you could say 'out'. Just thought I would point that out in case you all thought I was some sort of weird monster myself...^^;

I feel that children understand more than we give them credit for, and are quite capable of learning things long before we're ready to teach them. As long as a parent is there to watch over them, bolster their self-confidence, and keep a gentle, guiding hand on them (although discipline is also necassary), the child should be fine, no matter what life throws at them. But it has to start with the parent. (In the context of HP, I know that Harry does not have this, but the other kids do...in Neville's case, though, his Gran makes him worse rather then better with her constant nagging and less than complimentary remarks--so the opnion there is that Neville would have handled Snape a hell of a lot better if Gran hadn't already undermined his confidence all those years...I'm not excusing Snape (put the bludgers down, please), but I do think Neville already was messed up before the Potions Master got hold of him).

My favorite characters, in order, are, Snape, Lupin, Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore, Minerva, and Harry...the others are well-liked, but not as much...^^ Out of all of them, I defend Snape the most because of a belief (probably highly misguided) that he is not as bad as he seems. Besides, even the raving arses need a few people routing for them.

---Not to mention that I want to be close enough to him to strangle him if he really is a nasty creep...*winks*---

G'night all...
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Anne/Silverthorne
Silverthorne.Dragon at verizon.net (Nights and Weekends)
Anne-TMC-RCVG.Campbell at tenetheath.com (6am-3pm American Central, Mon-Fri.)

"It is better to die than to loose your wrench"--Paraphrased from a former Navy Mechanic.


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