Why were the sacrifices different? (was: A moral theory of Magic )

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 95325

I (Carol) wrote:
Are you sure that James sacrificed his life in the same way that 
Lily did? IMO, he died fighting to protect his family (like many 
another dead wizard, I imagine) but his death doesn't count as a
self-sacrifice in the way that Lily's does, since she was 
apparently wandless (and had to die for the "ancient magic" to 
work). Not all self-sacrifices protect another person the way 
Lily's did....
 
Siriusly Snapey Susan replied:
I'm sorry, Carol, but I don't get this one at all. James "died...to 
protect his family" and Lily died to protect Harry. What is the 
difference?  Why does his not "count"?  
 
And I have also never understood how folks derive from canon that 
Lily must have been wandless.  Maybe she was; maybe she wasn't.  But 
how exactly does that play into her sacrifice being different or 
more important or whatever than James'?  
 
I know *DD* stresses that Lily died to save Harry and that *that* 
kind of sacrifice leaves a mark....  But frankly I've never 
understood why it wasn't his PARENTS' sacrifice which BOTH left that 
mark.  Why wasn't James' sacrifice as "worthy" as Lily's?
 
I do think it's likely that Lily added some kind of charm or 
protection to Harry, in case Voldy should attack him, but did she 
KNOW in advance that she had to die?  If it was all inevitable that 
she had to die for Harry, then why bother to hide at all?  Or am I 
putting too much emphasis on "inevitable"?  <snip>


Carol:
Not every sacrifice counts as "ancient magic," or a lot more people
would survive AKs. Notice that DD never refers to James's
self-sacrifice. Why not? I'm not sure. In part, I think, because James
died fighting LV (as LV himself says) to buy time for Lily to escape
with Harry. (See James's words in the scene in PoA when Harry hears
his father for the first time.) But Lily didn't escape, or even
attempt to. Nor did she fight. She merely stepped in front of Harry
and begged Voldemort to kill her instead of Harry. ("Kill me! Not
Harry! Kill me!") Had she not been wandless, LV would have perceived
her as a threat as he did James and fought her. Instead he only says
"Stand aside, silly girl!" You don't say that to someone you know to
be an Order member, someone who has thrice defied you, if that person
is armed with a wand.

IMO Lily didn't want to escape--or defend herself--because she had to
be sacrificed--murdered--for the spell to work. Possibly the "ancient
magic" only involves mothers and their children so James's efforts
didn't count. Whether that's true or not, seems to involve a
defenseless person who didn't have to die substituting her (or his)
death for someone else's. But I think there's more to it. IMO, it
involves a protective spell that Lily placed on Harry that could only
be activated by her death. I also think that James didn't know what
Lily intended to do, or he wouldn't have advised her to run.

In any case, we're repeatedly told that it's her death, not James's,
that protects Harry. He "had" to die (LV's perspective) because he was
armed and fighting. She didn't have to die (LV's perspective) because
she wasn't armed and didn't present a threat. But from her own
perspective, she *did* have to die, a deliberate self-sacrifice, to
activate the "ancient magic."

As for your question about why they had to hide at all, I think they
did hope that they wouldn't be found and that they wouldn't have to
die. That's why they had the Secret Keeper. But I think that Lily,
unknown to James, had a Plan B. If the Fidelius Charm failed because
the Secret Keeper betrayed them, she would give her life to save
Harry. (Maybe, unlike James, she didn't place complete trust in
Peter.) At any rate, I don't think their deaths were inevitable, but I
do think that Lily gave a lot of thought to the Prophecy and its
fufillment and decided that Harry's life was more important than her
own. Also, she knew she had to die *before* LV AK'd Harry or the charm
would fail and her own death, if LV chose to kill her, would be for
nothing. It would no longer be a self-sacrifice, just a second murder.
And worse, there would be no Boy Who Lived to save the WW from Voldemort.

Carol