The Prophecy Again (Was:Re: Why were the sacrifices different?)

[annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 95402

> > > Jen wrote: <snip> Harry was born with the "power to vanquish the
> > Dark Lord" regardless of whether his parents died or not. <snip>
>  
> > Carol responds:
> > I don't think he was born with the power to vanquish LV or Lily's
> > sacrifice would not have been necessary. Nor would "mark him as his
> > equal" make any sense. Ironically, it's only when Harry is struck 
> by
> > the AK and it backfires that Harry becomes the only one who can 
> defeat
> > Voldemort. Until that point, that portion of the Prophecy was
> > unfulfilled, and it could have been Neville--or no one.
<snip>
> 
> Jen: Hmmmm...I've been pondering why I believe Harry was "born with 
> the power" and why it wasn't just Lily's sacrifice and/or charm 
> work. 
> 
> On one hand, I like your interpretation, Carol. It fits with what 
> Tom Riddle told Harry in COS: "So. Your mother died to save you. 
> Yes, that's a powerful countercharm. I can see now...there is 
> nothing special about you, after all. I wondered, you see." (US, 
> chap. 17, p. 317) That agrees with what you say, that it could have 
> been Harry, Neville or no one at all.

Annemehr:
But that was Diary!Riddle, who was made by Voldemort when he was only
sixteen, before the prophecy was made.  He had no way of knowing that
Harry *was* special (as his only source of up-to-date information was
Ginny, who knew nothing of the prophecy, either).

Actually, I agree with Jen that Harry was born with the power to
defeat LV, and it was always Harry, never Neville.  Anyway...

Jen:
<snip>
> I think the key is in how the two uses of the word 'power' are 
> interpreted. I interpret the first power, the Power to Vanquish, as 
> an inherent power Harry was born with that no one else, even 
> Neville, was born with. No one knows who the Prophecy refers to 
> though, until LV chooses Harry. That's when the Power to Vanquish is 
> activated & strengthened by a series of events that take place: 
> Lily's sacrifice, perhaps her own charm, Voldemort's AK--these 
> events interact to save Harry, & give Harry the additional blood 
> protection. 
> 
> The "mark him as his equal" part of the Prophecy still makes sense 
> to me with this interpretation. In attempting to kill Harry, LV 
> actually confers on him additional powers, including some of his 
> own. Had he chosen Neville instead, Neville might still be saved by 
> Alice's sacrifice, but the curse would not cause LV to lose his 
> powers nor would Neville gain additional powers.
> 
> Jen, going off to find some Advil for her Prophecy-induced headache.

Annemehr:
Here's how I look at the prophecy, which I think can be divided up
into phrases according to their purpose.  I am going to give the
prophecy its simplest interpretation.

Straight Information: "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK
LORD APPROACHES..." and "BUT HE WILL HAVE POWER THE DARK LORD KNOWS
NOT..."
- So, there is someone coming who can vanquish LV and who is stronger
than LV knows.

By This Ye Shall Know Him: "BORN TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM,
BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES...AND THE DARK LORD WILL MARK HIM AS
HIS EQUAL," and the reprise: "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE
DARK LORD WILL BE BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES...."
- In other words, how he can be recognised as "the one."  This *is*
Harry (according to my simple interpretation).

The Uncertain Outcome: "AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER
FOR NEITHER CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES...."
- This is uncertain *to us,* at any rate.  It is possible to interpret
this in a way that it becomes "straight information."

Okay, now for my interpretations:

As for what happened at Godric's Hollow when LV ended up marking
Harry, JKR said in the chat that the reason neither of them died by
the AK was the central question.  There is something of great
importance that we don't know yet, so it's hard to argue
interpretations.  However, if the "power the Dark Lord knows not" is
love, then it makes sense that LV was partly vanquished that night by
the love Harry received through Lily's sacrifice.  Harry *was* born
with Lily's love; it was merely made apparent in a particular way just
then.  Harry was also born with his own capacity for love as well as
all his other innate powers, whatever they turn out to be.  That LV
inadvertently transferred some of his own powers to Harry would be
part of that "central question" that we still haven't the answers to.

I also make little distinction between the love Harry received from
his parents and the love that is in his heart at age fifteen, or will
be at seventeen. I think it all will have its role in defeating LV.

And now for the phrase that gives us the most trouble:
AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER FOR NEITHER CAN LIVE
WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES....

Either can mean "both," as in when JKR first describes the Quidditch
field as having goalposts at "either end."  In this case, this phrase
of the prophecy is not the uncertain future, it is straight
information.  In my simplest interpretation, it means Harry and LV end
by killing each other by their own individual actions.

Either can also mean "one or the other."  If this is true, then the
prophecy leaves the outcome uncertain: either Harry kills LV, or LV
kills Harry; once ceases to survive, so now the other can live.

I can think of a simple way one of the other of these can come true,
where Harry vanquishes Voldemort and yet avoids committing what he
considers "murder."  

Suppose Harry comes to realise that the end must come with a
*successful* AK, cast by LV on Harry ("Not the WW! Not the WW! Take me
instead!").  It would mirror Lily's sacrifice and involve the power of
love which LV always underestimates.  Harry may sacrifice his own life
this way, but the connection forged between him and LV may cause a
surprising effect: Harry's death is exactly what vanquishes Voldemort.
 All that is left is to sort out the details.

If "either must die" means they both die, then Harry dies at the hand
of LV via an AK, while LV dies at the hand of Harry via Harry's
willing sacrifice and their connection.  The prophecy is fulfilled.

If "either must die" means one or the other dies, then Harry is the
one who dies at LV's hand, via AK.  In this case, vanquishing
Voldemort must mean something more like stripping him of his powers. 
Mirroring what happened at Godric's Hollow, Voldemort loses his
powers, although this time it's a bit different.  Perhaps he loses all
his magical powers permanently, so that he is now something like a
squib.  Now Voldemort can learn to truly live -- now that he can no
longer be a dark lord, he has the chance to learn to live a worthy
life (whether he takes it or not).  Again, the prophecy's fulfilled.

Of course, I don't like Harry dying.  I suppose if one or the other
must die (but not both), the ending can mirror the endings of some of
the individual books, where Harry willingly puts his life on the line
but doesn't lose it.  In this case, Harry exposes himself to LV's AK,
 believing that he'll die.  Since this is Harry's *own* sacrificial
offering (as opposed to what Lily did *for* him), the AK rebounds more
strongly than after Lily's death, and actually does kill Voldemort
this time.  To Harry's surprise, he has won and is still alive, but LV
can still be said to have died at Harry's hand in some sense, since
Harry had offered himself.  Prophecy fulfilled again (though I can
feel Kneasy cringing from here...sorry, man). By the way, I don't mean
to diminish Lily's sacrifice here, it's just that she wasn't the one
with the power to defeat LV, though she certainly made a contribution!

I think I'll go on record then and say that the end will definitely
be, er, one of these three.  At least, unless book six throws a monkey
wrench into it.  That's *my* interpretation, and I'm sticking to it!

Annemehr
off to join Jen in some Advil...
and a tip of the hat to bboy_mn, for using a variation of his phrase
"that's my story and I'm sticking to it"