DD: an appreciation (Was Re: Snape, A Murderer?)

[Barry Arrowsmith]

No: HPFGUIDX 95507

Splendid! Some responses that I can get my teeth into.
Multi-part post; individual answers could well vanish into the Well of 
Lost Posts that is Yahoo!Mort. (For  some reason it took over 12 hours 
for my original post to reach the board.)

lots of snips but still very long

 >
Neri:
I have several problems with the scenario of DD as the ruthless, grand 
puppet master:

1. This assumes that by the end of Book 7, when we'll have that scene 
when finally all is revealed, DD will say to Harry: "oh yes, and I
could have prevented your parent's death but didn't. In fact I kind of 
planned it. So sorry, Harry". Personally I can't imagine such a scene.
 >

Kneasy:
That's one possible scenario.
Personally, I don't expect DD to reach the end of Book 7. What I can 
imagine is  DD lying stricken, felled by whoever or whatever, asking 
for Harry's forgiveness and yet again claiming that he did what he 
thought was for the best. Great scene - it'll really bring the tissues 
out.
Even more likely IMO, is that Harry will figure it out for himself in 
Book 6. He's only just learned what's going on  and he'll be drawing 
(or jumping) to his own conclusions. He was a stroppy little bugger in 
OoP, this could make him even more uncooperative as he struggles 
against his destiny as outlined by DD.
The one fairly standard plot thread that hasn't yet appeared in HP is 
'The Temptation'. This could take lots of forms but if it surfaces at 
all a possibility would be a seductive whisper of "I know how you can 
escape from this mess" with inevitably dire consequences, possibly even 
leading to the demise of DD or a Weasley or two.
What fun!

 >
Neri:
2. Puppet-master!DD means that Harry was a puppet all his life.  
Somehow I don't think this is the moral JKR meant.
 >

Kneasy:
Well, it's possible to draw morals from just about anything, even from 
a well-meaning old man that had good intentions but perhaps went too 
far.
IIRC JKR tried to distinguish between the idea that she was writing a 
moral story (which she said she wasn't)  and a story that has some 
moral lessons in it (which she said she was). There's quite a gap 
between the two; the latter allows for much more character flexibility 
and errors of judgement.
But when you read the stories just how much choice has Harry  been 
allowed? Almost none. DD has had the broad outlines of his future 
mapped out from Godrics Hollow or even earlier. Harry  has had no say 
at all.

 >
Neri:
3. You are allowing DD an incredible foresight.  ...no mention here of 
any protection that "the one" will have, no mention of his parents 
killed by the Dark Lord, no mention what is the "mark". How would DD 
know in advance that the AK will rebound but leave a scar? How would he 
predict that Voldy's powers will be transferred to Harry during this? 
How could he be so sure that James, Lily and Voldy will all act the way 
they acted? If I were a puppet master I'd play my cards much safer.
 >

Kneasy:
Yep. IMO he does have incredible foresight, and I've  said before that 
he does seem to know of events before they happen, that he's acting as 
if he's following a script that has already been written. Which could 
portend some horrible time-manipulation plot, something I'd hate.
I doubt he would bother very much whether the mark was a scar or a 
tattoo saying "I  hate Voldy" The form the mark takes is largely 
irrelevant so long as it behaves the way it has.
Transfer of powers? We've only his word that there was such a transfer 
and if there was, how did he know? The ability to speak Parseltongue is 
known in the WW but very rare; why is DD so sure that it came from 
Voldy? At the time he's telling Harry this, he says that it is one of 
the powers (plural) that Harry has from Voldy; how the hell does he 
know there's more?
I also doubt that he knew what would result when Voldy threw the curse; 
the rebound would be a bonus. All he would be concerned about would be 
Harry's survival and that could be ensured by the judicious application 
of Old Magic. I imagine he was really broken up by the deaths of James 
and Lily that finalised the charm. You only have to read the first 
chapter of PS/SS to spot it - he gives them just four words: "I know, I 
know." Great epitaph from their friend and mentor.

 >
Neri:
4. If you still insist on giving DD so much credit, then it seems much 
more strange how he made several glaring mistakes in OotP. He
admitted to two of them by the end: failing to tell Harry sooner about 
the prophecy and failing to realize that Snape won't be able to teach 
Harry Occlumency  So is the grand puppet master really getting senile, 
or are you saying that he lied to Harry and us in this confession, and 
he actually planed Sirius death also?  The Sirius fans will be 
thankful...
 >

Kneasy:
DD has a habit of trimming. While it's difficult  to catch him in an 
outright lie he often slides out from under by avoiding giving answers 
or  only telling part of the truth. From his point of view it was 
probably easier not to tell Harry the full story, if indeed we really 
do have the full story. Once he's had time to think there'd be lots of 
questions that Harry would want to ask; oh, I don't know though, Harry 
is not good at asking the right questions or shutting up long enough to 
listen to  the answers.
It could be that DD underestimated Harry's hatred of Snape. Or maybe he 
underestimated Voldy. The dreams started long  before the lessons did - 
how much influence was Voldy able to exert? Enough to influence Harry's 
behaviour perhaps?
Sirius - a planned death? Maybe not planned, but useful. Opportunistic, 
let's say. Sirius dead in a desperate rescue is much to  be preferred 
to a live Sirius infecting Harry with thoughts that "James would have 
done it this way."
Who  would Harry be more likely to listen to -  Sirius or DD? I think 
we all know the answer to that one.

 >
Kathy’s questions to Kneasy:
So, Are you saying that it isn’t so much about Harry but about DD’s 
plan that involves Harry?
Did DD hide Harry away after setting up and using Lily and James 
sacrifice until he came of age to be taught to be useful for “the” 
plan?
Don't you think that would be beyond ruthless? In actuality worse than 
Voldemort himself.
 >

Kneasy:
In brief -  Yes and yes.
Harry wouldn't be in the position he's in if it hadn't been for the 
Prophecy and DD's plan that utilised it. Don't get me wrong, he's fond 
of Harry, possibly even "feels his pain" to  revert to current 
emotional babble, but he believes in the Prophecy, which means that 
Harry is a lot more than just some kid with an unfortunate past - he's 
the way to beat Voldy. And the  survival of the WW has a higher 
priority than Harry's feelings.
Harry  was Voldy's  target from the moment he heard the fragment of the 
Prophecy. What're the odds that Voldy would give up and go away? Not 
very good. He was after the Stone in book 1 in order to make his 
comeback; once he had, young Potter would be on his little list. Maybe 
not right at the top, but he would have all of eternity to deal with 
all his outstanding business. So unless Harry is involved in DD's plan 
his long term future would be shorter than he'd hope it to be. At least 
by being DD's Weapon!Harry he stands a chance he might not otherwise 
have.


 >
Siriusly Snapey Susan:
That is, would DD himself use the Unforgivables? I'm not trying to be 
dense. It's just seems you
talked *around* that a bit. Well, maybe that's not fair. Perhaps my 
original questions seemed either/or'ish: EITHER DD believes he must not 
use Unforgivables OR he thinks it's okay but it wouldn't have WORKED 
that time because Harry must do it.
 >

Kneasy:
If DD truly believes in the Prophecy, *and* his reading of the Prophecy 
is correct, then Harry is the one to sort out Voldy. IMO he also 
believes that Harry and Voldy are connected in some way (two  streams 
of green smoke?). It is this connection that is really intriguing and 
set me off on that possession thread. I think that possession is and 
will be an important factor in the books. DD  says that Harry has some 
of Voldy's powers - how? From an AK? Or by some other means like the 
dissolution at GH? But it may mean that Harry and Voldy  are linked; in 
which case what would be the effect on Harry of  destroying Voldy?
So to answer your question, I think he doesn't dare use an AK on Voldy 
without the risk of unknown (to us) effects on Harry. This ignores 
whether or not Voldy can actually be killed by an AK, DD doesn't want 
to take the risk anyway.
Would DD actually  stoop  so low as to cast an Unforgivable? Ask 
yourself the question below.

 >
Carol:
What powers could he be too "noble" to
use other than the Unforgiveable Curses?

Or how about a short answer that can't be misinterpreted. Do I believe 
that Dumbledore would use the Unforgiveable Curses, for any reason, 
under any circumstances? No, I don't.
 >

Kneasy:
With my imagination I could come up with lots of interesting powers, 
but we'd better ignore that.

Let me ask a question back: do you think that DD would use an 
Unforgivable to save Harry if no other means were available?

And remember, "for any reason, under any circumstances"  are your own 
limiting factors.
(BTW my answer would be "yes.")


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