Am I the only one

[a_reader2003]

No: HPFGUIDX 95909

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" <jmmears at c...> 
wrote:

> Carolyn wrote:
> Neil, health warning - this topic invokes the mum brigade, big
time, every time it comes up; get out your tin helmet and stand your 
ground.

:: Jo charges it, rolling pin at the ready ;)::

Carolyn:
(giggle) had to be a rolling pin in this battle I suppose ! A heavy 
blunt domestic item entirely appropriate to Molly's bludger approach 
to life. Prefer reason and logic myself (think daleks and staircases).

Jo:
I disagree that Molly is dangerous to Harry. As much as I love
Sirius, he was wrong -- Harry still *is* a child as much as he
doesn't want to believe it. He and Sirius would both have been
better served to have followed Molly's (and Dumbledore's) advice,
and perhaps Sirius would still be alive if they had.

Carolyn:
No, whatever Harry's actual age, in this situation he needed more 
information; Arthur admits it at the time, and so does Dumbledore at 
the end of the book. If Harry had just been able to understand a 
little more about how Voldemort could use his mind, none of it might 
have happened, and he would have accepted the injunctions of the 
adults around him with better grace. Other posters have pointed out 
that you can't continue with the 'because I tell you to' approach 
much beyond kindergarten.

Jo:
Well it's nice to see her get credit for the only hugs, presents and
enormous meals Harry has ever had in his life ;). Really, it's
Molly's (and the other Weasleys) willingness to embrace Harry that
has brought him his happiest, most carefree interludes. There's
nowhere he'd rather be than The Burrow, right? And I'm sorry, but I
can't consider Harry, Ron, Ginny, and the twins as young adults
given not just their ages, but real lack of maturity (and the twins
really are old enough to know better).

Carolyn:
The classic parenting trick IMO. Kids suddenly find out  that what 
they thought was freely given love and affection has a big price. The 
cost of Harry's past enjoyment at the Burrow is that he suddenly has 
to do exactly what he's told by a woman who is not his mother.

The actual ages of the kids is immaterial - its their experiences and 
personal perceptions that are important - and she simply doesn't want 
to know anything about this. Heck, Ginny has even been possessed by 
Voldie..you can't smother such memories with extra helpings of apple 
tart.

Jo:
Oh, of course she did. She's a very compassionate woman and Sirius
would have done well to show her a bit of respect, given all she's
done for his Godson, not to mention the fact that she prepares his
meals, cleans his disgusting house, and probably launders the
clothes on his back. She makes that remark in the heat of the
moment and while it was hurtful, you can't say she didn't speak the
truth, can you? All the years rotting in jail didn't do Harry much
good, after all. It's Harry's well being she's concerned with here;
not Sirius' who is after all a grown man, and should behave as
such.

Carolyn:
This is hardly worth responding to. Sirius has given his parent's 
disgusting house to the Order - none of its vileness is of his doing; 
he utterly hates what it is. And what's that Biblical proverb, 
that 'man reaps what he sows'? She actually hasn't done anything 
special for Harry, or indeed Sirius, just carried on in her self-
allotted domestic role. The WW society is pretty 1950s/bordering on 
medieval so probably people did assume that she would do this in 
addition to her guarding duties, but there is no evidence that anyone 
is rude or ungrateful to her for doing it. That was not the reason 
for the argument.

And Sirius ended up in jail within 48 hours of Lily and James dying. 
He had tried to take care of Harry immediately, but Hagrid (on 
Dumbledore's orders) would not let him. Rebuffed, the only thing he 
could think of doing was tracking down Pettigrew and avenging the 
deaths - a pretty reasonable action IMO. She is utterly cheap in not 
acknowledging this - and I saw no example of her being the slightest 
bit compassionate about him at any stage. 

Jo:
I disagree that Arthur's role has been usurped. He's pretty much
delegated the day to day running of the family's affairs to Molly
(you know, all the boring, tedious things like discipline, chores,
etc), but he's shown that when he considers something important he
asserts himself, and Molly gives in (as in PoA, as well as in OoP).
As for Sirius, she's not reducing him to a child. She's disagreeing
with him because she doesn't agree with him on Harry's best
interests. I think she's earned the right to do that over the past
several years.

<snip speculation on possible Weasley family disgrace>

Carolyn:
Well, you've chosen to snip some reasons for the Molly-Arthur 
dynamic; we will no doubt find out if any of that speculation is 
true. Whatever the cause, the idea of Arthur even trying to assert 
his authority in Molly's home sphere is laughable. She is the 
archetypal domestic dragon. There have been some amusing posts 
speculating on whether it continues on into the bedroom - it has all 
the makings of the classic dominatrix scenario. Certainly something 
has kept them producing kids despite their poverty.

In even thinking of disagreeing with her, Sirius is invading that 
domestic sphere of child-rearing which she has reserved for herself. 
Modern twaddle about father-figures and role models is perhaps 
irrelevant to these books, as Kneasy has forcefully pointed out on 
many occasions, but essentially that is what Sirius represents here. 
He's a man with a man's approach to life, far more forceful than 
Arthur, and not obliged to accept her judgement or authority. After 
all, she's moved into his house, not the other way round.

And she certainly has not earned the right to be Harry's mother. She 
has enveloped one of her son's friends in her vast maternal blanket 
on her own initiative. Now she wants payment in the form of Harry's 
obedience. He's already shown he can resist Imperio..she should take 
note.

Jo:
While she's under unbearable pressure, I think that Molly's
fundamentally tougher than most of the rest of the characters in the
order. IMO, she'd be the last one to betray the Order for the simple
reason that her family's survival depends utterly on the Order's
success. That her family (and Harry) are the most important things
in her life, and the fact that no one is more loyal to Dumbledore
than she leaves me confidant that if anyone cracks, it won't be
Molly.

Carolyn:
I think this sums up the dangers of her simplistic approach to life. 
There are numerous difficult questions about Dumbledore's conduct of 
this battle, and what his plans for Harry are. I am afraid he 
probably would not hesitate to sacrifice her and her whole family if 
it appeared necessary.

And you only have to consider just a few scenarios to get Molly 
seriously confused. What if she finds herself in a position where 
Percy has to be sacrificed to save the family ? What if Arthur is 
Imperio'd again and seems to be threatening Ginny ? Should Ron die to 
save Harry ? If one of the twins dies as a result of an action by 
Percy, is it ok for the surviving twin to avenge him by killing 
Percy ? All very nasty; rolling pins won't be much use to her.



Jo S., defending Weasleys since 2001	
Carolyn: Perhaps you should consider why there are so many attacks on 
her?