DD: an appreciation (Was Re: Snape, A Murderer?)

[arrowsmithbt]

No: HPFGUIDX 95946

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" <naama_gat at h...> wrote:
> 
> He did *not* say that. He was berating himself for allowing his love 
> of Harry to stand in the way of what he believed he should have done 
> for the higher good. If he really didn't care for the consequences of 
> his actions, other than Harry, what cause would he have to feel as 
> guilty as he does?
> 
Kneasy
And the higher good was what?
Saving others,  saving Harry  or defeating Voldemort?
IMO if he feels guilt at all, it's for missed opportunities to tell Harry
the truth. The deaths of others seems to be a minor consideration.

>
>Naama: 
> In that same monologue from which you have just quoted, Dumbledore 
> takes the blame for Sirius' death, with expressions of guilt. As for 
> Cedric, I'm sorry I don't have the books here so I can find the exact 
> quote, but Dumbledore appears distraught at his death. 
>

Kneasy:
I  can find where he takes the blame; maybe you regard that as expressions
of guilt, but regret, remorse or sorrow I can't find.

He says even less about Cedric apart from the end-of-term speech. It was 
Fudge that made all the fuss when the two arrived  back. DD's total verbal
output consists of
"Harry! Harry!"
"Harry you  can't help him now. It's over. Let go."
"That's right, Harry...just let go, now..."
"No, I would  prefer..." (On the suggestion that Harry go to the hospital.)

In the speech the only hint of sorrow is the opening line:
"...but I  must first acknowledge the loss of a very fine person..."
Acknowledge. What a word to use. Again no word of regret.
"His death has affected you all..." 
He could at least  have  said "us" instead of "you".
Apart from that he shows no emotion about Cedric at all.

>
>Naama: 
> Are you saying that Harry was *not* bound by a magical contract? I 
> don't see any evidence for that. It seems that once your name is spit 
> out of the goblet, you are, willingly or not, a contestant.
>
Kneasy:
Only if you put your name in it in the first place.
"Anyone wishing to submit themselves as champion must write their
name and school upon a slip of parchment and drop it into  the Goblet.
...The placing of your name in the Goblet constitutes a binding, magical
contract.....Please be very sure, therefore, that you  are wholeheartedly
prepared to play, before you drop your name in the Goblet." 
No mention there  of entry by proxy. Harry did not put his name in,
he made no attempt to do so. He did not enter the contract. What
happened was the equivalent of me volunteering you for army  duty
in Iraq. Would you feel bound by the contract? I doubt it. 

>
>Naama: 
> I don't understand you here - tears are cheap and words dear? If he 
> had said how sorry he was, that would have persuaded you that he 
> truly cares? Or would you have found the words cheap and blamed him 
> for not caring enough to cry?
>

Kneasy:
DD's words mean what DD wants them to mean, nothing else. Blame
has  little to do with it. In this thread I'm interested in whether he's the
type of leader  I think he is, rather than the old softy that others seem to
see. So I look for evidence for and against. The whole  of the explicative
monologue boils down to one strand - Voldy is your enemy, this is why
and one of you will have to kill the other. Not soft at all and no 
conventional expressions of sorrow or concern about it, either.

I'm not particulary bothered about this, though some seem to be upset
by this reading of his character. It is surprising that when reading the
text again, conventional words normally expressed at a death are not
there. IMO DD is an old toughie who tries to pretend that he's soft, 
but is not very good at it.
Fine. No problem.
  
>Naama: 
> I have always interpreted it to mean that Dumbledore placed his charm 
> on Harry *after* his mother's death. He knew what Lily had done and 
> wanting to give Harry the best protection he could, placed the charm 
> on him and left him with the Dursleys. 
> 
Kneasy:
OK. When did he place the charm? At the beginning of PS/SS? No evidence
for it. He takes Harry from Hagrid and puts him on the step with the letter.
No charm mentioned, though McGonagall should have noticed if he had.
I suspect that the charm was placed before the GH event. A protective
charm that was triggered by Lily's death.

And no, I don't expect anyone to agree with me. That's part of the fun.