[HPforGrownups] What does Snape owe Harry?

[Silverthorne]

No: HPFGUIDX 96666

{Caesian}
How delightful to find a bunch of grown-ups who want to talk about HP! I hope I am not repeating anything that has been posted previously, or making no sense, and if so  my apologies.


{Silverthorne}
Hey, welcome to the group! No worries, I think we've all rambled, come up with odd stuff, etc, so no worries. ;)


{Caesian}
In a nutshell, I speculate that Snape hates Harry, James, Sirius and Lupin so emphatically because he owes a life-debt that limits him to a role he detests, and from which he sorely wants to escape. 


{Silverthorne}
*nod,nod* This is a general consensus with a lot of the board, and even I have to agree that there is a lot of canon to support the idea. I, however, think that most of the animosity is actaully *gone* by the time of the books--although the residue is pretty ugly (Snape's constant harping on Harry, for example). Then again, I'm also one of the ones that thinks Snape's treatment of Harry is more than *just* a frustrated adult taking out his temper on a 'defenseless' boy--granted, Snape's teaching techniques suck, but there's a method to the madness as it were, and it isn't 'just' a hatred of James's offspring...(Although it helps Snape maintain that level of nasty Snark that he has in regards to the trio and Neville--much easier to be a jerk if you have an emotional base, still valid or not, to build on)


{Caesian}
Here's the supporting data:

We discover in GoF that James Potter may have saved Snape's life, and that Sirius and Lupin are also involved in this episode. We also learn in GoF that saving the life of another wizard creates a special bond between the savior and saved, regardless of their desire for this bond. This is a deep, impenetrable magic, according to Dumbledore. The saved, according to Dumbledore, is in the debt of the savior. 

Because James saved him, Snape originally owed the debt to James. This alone was enough to rile him, no doubt. The debt may have come to naught because James has died, however, I speculate that it has been passed to Harry, and that Snape, and Dumbledore, know this.

I believe that Snape may hope that by saving Harry's life, he could negate the debt. And that he desperately wants to do so. 


{Silverthorne}
Right--makes a lot of sense so far, and I would have to agree if we we're going completely on the assumption that Snape's only 'trip' on Harry is that Harry is Jame's son, and Snape owes a life debt to the family bloodline. ^^


{Ceasian}
**Silverthorne snips a lot of interesting cannon**
 In the match against Hufflepuff that Snape refereed, his behavior seemed slightly out-of-character. 

Before the match:
"There was simply no way that Snape would dare to try to hurt him if Dumbledore was watching. Perhaps that was why Snape was looking so angry as the teams marched on to the pitch, something that Ron noticed too.
`I've never seen Snape look so mean,' he told Hermione."

Then, after Harry had caught the Snitch:
"He saw Snape land nearby, white-faced and tight-lipped  then Harry felt a
hand on his shoulder and looked up into Dumbledore's smiling face.  Snape spat bitterly on the ground."

Now, Snape may well have been disappointed by the victory of Gryffindor, which allowed them to overtake Slytherin for the Quidditch cup and doubly irritated by the praise-worthy performance of Potter. But, despite his obvious partisan concern for Slytherin, and dislike of Harry, Snape is usually more self-contained. His reactions to other Quidditch contests have been "a very grim smile" and the like. I interpret this particularly peevish reaction to 
disappointment at his failure, again, to save Harry.



{Silverthorne}
Suggestive, but Snape always looks angry or irritated, or some other negative emotion with Harry...and, as is pointed out often enough on the board, since the books are from Harry's POV, it would be natural for Harry to assume that whatever is eating Snape has to do with him directly, and we as the captive audience would be introduced to that thought process as 'fact'. After all, that is how *Harry* sees it--whether or not he's correct in his assumption is another matter though

For all we know, Snape is irritated because he's actaully having to referee the match--something he might not actually enjoy. Other than being jealous of James's Quidditch skills when he was younger, we don't really have a lot of cannon to support that Snape *enjoys* Quidditch. To me, showing up for matches is not an indication of 'enjoyment'--I get the impression *everyone* attends the school Qudditch matches--rather like everyone has to attend Assemblies at school--even if that's not what they want to be doing. 

Having gone to Rodeo every junior year and high school year in Tucson, AZ, I can attest that someone can attend a sport/event on a regular basis *without* being a huge fan--I went because *everyone* in the family went. Although I loved seeing all the beautiful horses, had fun watching the clowns and stunt riders, the bronco, bull riding, barrel racing, and calf roping honestly bored me to tears. I really wanted to be at home, either doing artwork or taking a nice long exploratory walk out in the desert.

For all we know, Snape as an adult really thinks it's a waste of time, but since Qudditch is SUCH a big WW deal, he might have thought in his earlier years that that might be one of the ways to 'gain favor' or 'popularity' with other people--social climbing at its best. As he got older and found other ways to 'showcase' his talents and skills, the need to be well-versed in Qudditch faded...until he found it necassary to referee a match to make sure Potter didn't get himself creamed. Since adult Snape hasn't been on a broom before or since, and certainly not at a Quidditch match (if he likes it so much, why doesn't he referee more often? Obviously, the position can be exchanged between the qualified teachers). I find the idea very likely...

I do have to agree though that Snape was likely frustrated that nothing happened--but not necassarily because he failed Harry or the need to satisfy the life debt. I have to agree with others that Snape has his own agenda--he *wants* to look good...he *wants* to be recognized--and not necessarily as the one who saved Harry--Harry is just the most convienient vehicle for it, since Harry is the one person under Snape's watchful gaze that is likely to get himself into some sort of trouble that in most cases would need rescueing from. It's just Snape's bad luck that Harry has this knack of getting rescued in other ways--the Hand of Fate/Wheel of Fortune smiles on the boy. Snape need not apply for the job of 'guardian'...


{Ceasian}
In PoA, his reaction to finding Harry, Ron and Hermione with Lupin and Sirius in the Shrieking Shack has also struck me as a bit odd in that his first direct comment to Harry is to point out that he was saving his life. Because he had just witnessed a scene wherein Lupin, Sirius and the Trio were quietly talking, why did he believe this?


{Silverthorne}
There's some debate as to whether or not Snape heard *any* of that conversation, and if he did, how much. I think he heard from the door creaking on, but by the same token, I have to agree with folks that point out that he was *so* focused on Sirius that any other concerns went out the window--life debt to James/Harry included. Again, at the time, he was trying to capture/kill Sirius, not save Harry. In the worst case scenario, he was so engulfed with rage at Sirius that he had only eyes for finally taking down his school-day nemesis, at best, he honestly thought he was bringing in a DE murdered and his (very dangerous) werewolf accomplice before the pair could get hold of the kids and do them serious harm. Either way, life debts were the furthest thing form his mind--remember, at the end of the book, he was more upset that he had lost his claim to 'The Order of Merlin, First Class" than whether or not Harry was all right, of if he himself had 'satisfied' any life debt....


{Caerian}
 GoF, his extreme irritation and resistance to Colin Creevey taking Harry away from a Potions Class wherein Snape was, probably, planning to poison Harry suggests to me that, at this point, Snape's getting desperate. He's actually trying to risk Harry's life in order to have a shot at saving him (in this case, by providing the antidote). One could consider his constant attempts to get Harry expelled, and thus remove him from Dumbledore's direct oversight, in this category.

{Silverthorne}
Erm....I don't recall Snape ever even *threatening* to poison Harry in class--feed Neville's possibly poisonous potion to Trevor the Toad, yes. But not poison Harry. Also, even for Snape, with antidote in hand, that's a *very* risky propostion to take. First, there's Dumbledore to deal with if something goes wrong--you know, the man Snape probbaly owes his very existance and livelihood to. Unless Snape has the option of 'Running Home to Daddy' (Voldemort), it would be suicidal in more ways than one to risk that agreement with Dumble. If there had to be a choice between Harry and Snape, I can promise you, Dumble would have Snape out on his ear in no time, especially if Snape really went after Harry. Dumbledore is not stupid--he could put two and two together. Ever notice that the teachers and adults that really go after Harry are somehow always *away* from Harry by the end of the book in one way or another?

Then there's Snape's own past as a DE--even if his status as a former DE is known by only a select few, I have a feeling that one small slip up on Snape's part would have the MoM on him like white on rice as it were. Poisoning Harry would definetely get some attention from the MoM--probably almost as much as letting a suspected (ex) DE teach DADA....


{Caerian}
So, if all this is true, why wasn't he successful at that first Quidditch match when everyone else certainly thought Harry was at great risk? Maybe because the prophecy, and perhaps also the lingering protection of Lily's sacrifice, makes it extremely unlikely that Harry's life is about to be snuffed by anyone but Lord Voldemort. 
Finally, why has it been passed to Harry? In addition to Harry being James' son, I believe the fact that James and Lily were murdered plays a role in this, and may have sealed the deal. 


{Silverthorne}
Possible...but then again, I have to beg one question in all of this--which is this--*Can* a life debt be passed from Father to Son in the first place? That has always bothered me. Maybe Snape does not owe Harry a magical life debt at all...maybe, just maybe, it is all assumption on Harry (and possibly Snape's) part...Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape is trying to pay back his life debt to James by saving Harry at the Qudditch match...but he doens't say that there is an actual life debt to pay. For all we know, the 'life-debt' doesn't exist (or was negated by James's death)...or what Snape is calling a life-debt is really his own guilt towards James and/or Lily manifesting in some sort of twisted honor code of his own. Either way, it's not really re-inforced throughout the books--not as much as all the other factors between James and Snape, and not the way Peter's 'debt' to Harry is...

{Caelian}
I speculate that the debt Snape owes Harry chafes him in a very real way. 
I believe that until he is clear of it, he cannot live the life he wants to live  which, based on my reading of the character, is not an entirely nice one. (I suspect Snape wants the respect and power of folks like Malfoy, and that he would much rather be a high-ranking bad guy than a frustrated potions master.) Dumbledore is aware of this debt, and knows that even if Snape wanted to transgress against it, he could not  and therefore trusts him to behave.

In the final analysis, how else can we square his obvious efforts to save Harry against his even more obvious dislike of Harry - except to speculate that saving Harry's life is very much in his own self-interest. I tend to agree with J.K.R. that Snape gets more sympathy than he deserves, and that he is a deeply icky person. I do not see much evidence for ethical concerns as a motivation for his behavior, and do not think that, if he really did 
have a tortured heart of gold, J.K.R. would thus renounce him. If he is not acting for Harry's good, or out of loyalty to Dumbledore (and if he were, why wouldn't he also manage to be nice to Harry?), I suggest he's out for himself and always has been.


{Silverthorne}
Well, what relaly motivates Snape is still up for debate, since we're just now getting a glimpse into his greasy little head...but I *can* answer the last question easily enough. You don't *have* to be nice to someone who is loyal to the same person that you are loyal to in order to be truly loyal. Otherwise, the world would be in a lot more chaos than it is already. 

Think about it--you may be loyal to your job, your friends, your family, but even within those social structures, there are probably folks you wish you could do without, and some you might even pick on--at least when the person who 'leads' or 'heads' the group in question has their back turned...and yet, if the unit as a whole is attacked (that not so favorite person included), don"t you spring to that person's defence (no matter what you may say about them or do to them in other circumstances)?. Remember the old saying--'The enemy of my enemy is also my friend'. You might not like them--but you're on the same side. So you got to work together. But there is no cosmic law that says you have to treat that person *nicely*, no matter how allied you may be....and since Snape is not a habitually nice person anyway...he's the same way with Lupin...and Sirius...any of the Order members, really...just the degree od dislike and disrespect is different.

 
{Caelian}
My apologies to Snape-lovers. Not a big fan of the sexiness of yellow, uneven teeth myself - but I will freely admit he is one of the most tortured, mysterious and fascinating characters I have read - gotta give him props for that.


{Silverthorne}
eh, I like him for his mind, and I empathize with his childhood, having had a very similar one from what has been shown thus far (although I was never quite so nasty as he was). My liking for him stems more from sympathy than anything, and is actaully relatively newfound--I wasn't particularly enthralled with the man until we got some backround (and in my case, a little understanding of him) in OotP...he's an underdog--granted a mangy, nasty tempered, even rabid mutt of an underdog, but that gets a little more sympathy form me than folks that have a support system and don't bother to use it...^^; Snape, whatever he is, got there all by himself. If he's really 'turned good', then he did it all under his own power, usisng his own mind, and by clawing his way out of the ncie deep dark hole he ahd dug for himself. Someone who can change themselves that drastically get a *huge* vote of appreciation from me. Why? Because it is the ulitmate expression of Dumbledore's statement that we are shaped by the coices we make

And that includes the ones that get us out of earlier choices that were probably not so great...;)

Anne/Silverthorne
**Salvation is the hardest thing to accomplish...especially by yourself**


From: "caesian" <caesian at yahoo.com>
Date: 2004/04/21 Wed PM 09:43:13 CDT
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What does Snape owe Harry?



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