Why Voldemort is a fascist... (LONG)

[arrowsmithbt]

No: HPFGUIDX 108975

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:
> 
> First of all: did you *read* the list of nine principles set forward?
> That's not any grand canonical list, but I'd love to know which of
> these doesn't apply, being as I went to some care to compile
> them in a formulation that was not historically specific and thus
> limited to any one regime.  There's also the dictionary definition 
> that Susan kindly posted...
>
Kneasy:
Yep. And the 9 points aren't specific enough.
It could describe any number of 'God-King' regimes throughout history
- there's nothing unique in fascism except that the term is fairly recent.
  
> 
> Here I am going to take the extraordinary step of saying out and out:
> 
> That is not correct.
> 
> First of all, all of these regimes feature dictators.  More than 
> this,they all feature dictators with supporting ideologies, and 
> these ideologies have several features in common not mentioned by 
> your summaries.  They all explicitly reject democracy in favor of 
> autocratic rule, and this autocratic rule is justified by the 
> purpose of the organic state.  The most important person in this 
> organic state is, natch, the dictator--and he is always formulated 
> as an exceptional person, with some sort of nifty title (El 
> Caudillo, Il Duce, Der Fuehrer, The Dark Lord...).  Combined with
> the exceptional person of the leader is a conception of the *people* 
> as a unique and exceptional people with a particular destiny, which 
> of course, involves the leadership of their exceptional leader.  The 
> focus on the glorified past is related to the idea that the people 
> are a people of destiny--and there's always some pesky opponent 
> trying to deny the people their proper place, be it the Jews or 
> simply the people who don't agree with fascism.  *All* of these 
> systems also featured secret police (Blackshirts, Franco's street 
> thugs, the SS).

Kneasy:
I urge you  to read more history.
A dictator is a dictator is a dictator as I've said before. They all *end up*
the same, but their beginnings are much more interesting.
Benny - a marxist who saw nationalism as more fun than internationalism
Adolf - a Vienna socialist with an agenda that included confiscation of
land without compensation and the abolition of unearned income. It was
also where he learned his anti-semitism - it was socialist dogma. The Jews
were considered capitalists.
Franco - a former royalist who hated what socialists were doing to Spain.

When offered power Mussolini did not have secret police; parliament 
wasn't dissolved and he later had a massive majority even though the 
opposition was free and active. 
Hitler  got his toe-hold into government via free elections too; and his
supporters weren't the so-called elite but the dispossessed, the losers.
It all changed later of course. 
All very different - at the start when 'fascism' or 'national socialism' meant
something other than one man's whim.

Now which one does Voldy equate to? Because he too is at the beginning,
collecting supporters to topple the existing order.
Of course, if he has his way he'll end up the same and the label will be
just as meaningless.

> Nora:
> His past isn't just personal...because he's also interested, it 
> seems, in the composition of his society, you know, continuing 
> Salazar's noble work. He seems rather obsessed with how he, the 
> Heir, fits into this history, and he seems to have gone to great 
> lengths to create a historically founded persona for public 
> consumption.  Immortality is up there too, but I seem to
> remember that right now he's more interested in swatting the flies.  
> Waiting for some more info here on what Voldy himself actually 
> believes, I admit, but he does seem to have a general obsession with 
> the past.

Kneasy:
And what  is Salazars 'noble work'? Has it been spelled out? And he 
hasn't 'created' an historical persona - he is one. No sleight of hand, no
fraudulent claims, he is the heir of Slytherin. But I've never heard the DEs
say so. Do they  even know? Has he told them of his origins? I'd say not,
judging by Bella's reactions  in the Ministry. 
> 
> Nora:
> I read your argument and raise you one Josef Stalin.  Ever read 'The
> Gulag Archipelago'?  Random terror means that anyone can get nailed, 
> and has been proven remarkably effective at keeping a population 
> scared and in line.  Not to mention that this is canonical: several 
> characters mention the atmosphere of terror that prevailed, the fear 
> for one's family, etc.  Wormtail says 'he was taking over everywhere-
> -why not join up?'  Seems like for whatever reason, that random 
> terror was pretty effective; and also for whatever reason, people 
> weren't just up and leaving to get away from it.
> 
Kneasy:
Stalins victims weren't armed as his thugs were.
The knock on the door has a different perspective when the first one 
through might get an Obliviate! or worse thrown at him.
Yes, Voldy  did instigate a 'reign of terror' - as a terrorist. And the
idea works - for terrorists. 
JKR wants to make our blood crreep but she hasn't really thought through
all the implications and ramifications of doing such a thing in a society
based on magic. She too is thinking in terms of the KGB and Gestapo -
but it's laughable to believe a whole magical society could be cowed
by a government that acts like that. It couldn't work unless magic was
denied to the population at large. Think about it.