Petunia, Dudley and WW (and dementors)

[KathyK]

No: HPFGUIDX 109517

macfotuk wrote:

> > However, although dementors have clearly 
> > existed in the WW forever I'm sure I've read in the books 
> > (probably PoA) that it was Fudge who first went into league with 
> > them to use them as guards at Azkaban, much against DD's 
> > inclinations. Fudge didn't become MoM until well after James and 
> > Lily's demise (GoF and Barty Crouch Sr backstory), so has JKR 
> > made another mistake (deliberate or otherwise)? 

Yb responded:

> I wnet over that section again after I finished the book, and I 
> came up with a different idea: Petunia knows more than she's 
> telling about the WW. I can see two reasons for her explanation: 
> She is unconsciously melding two memories together, one of James 
> and Lily and one of someone else telling her about the Dementors 
> at Azkaban, /OR/ she is covering. She says "They guard the wizard 
> prison, Azkaban." Then she says she overheard it from "her and 
> that awful boy." I think she learned it from someone from the WW 
> that she's been in contact with. 


KathyK:

I looked for a reference to Fudge being the one who put the 
dementors in charge of Azkaban.  I'm afraid I didn't find one.  Of 
course, I may have missed it...  While I was looking, though, I did 
come across evidence that *contradicts* Fudge being the one who put 
them in charge of Azkaban.  

After reading OoP last summer, I couldn't decide whether or not the 
dementors were involved at all in the first war with Voldemort.  At 
the time I concluded that there was no way the the dementors could 
have been allied with the Ministry for the first war.  It didn't 
make sense to me considering what we know about the nature of the 
dementors.  I thought they either were not involved at all in the 
conflict for some reason or else they were on the side of LV, which 
also didn't make sense to me since that would mean the Ministry was 
employing creatures who had been loyal to Voldemort to guard people 
who were...loyal to Voldemort.

I have now reversed my previous conclusion.  I believe the dementors 
were guarding Azkaban at least since the events of Halloween 1981 
and probably even earlier than that.

We know Fudge didn't become Minister for Magic until sometime after 
baby Harry defeated Voldemort.  According to the _Quibbler_ in OoP, 
Fudge has been Minister for five years (OoP Ch 10, US ed. p 192).  
The dementors were helping the Ministry before that.  Have a look at 
the GoF Pensieve scene.  Dementors appear at Karkaroff's name-naming 
and six dementors escorted the Longbottom's attackers (GoF Ch 30, US 
ed. p 586 and 594).

The trials Harry witnesses in the pensieve all take place after LV's 
defeat and before Fudge became Minister and the dementors were 
already guards.  But we can place the association between the 
Ministry and the dementors further back than that, I believe.  

1.  Sirius makes the comment, "And I wasn't the only one who was 
handed straight to the dementors without a trial." (GoF Ch 27, US 
ed. p 527)  To me this implies dementors guarded Azkaban at the time 
Sirius was captured shortly after Godric's Hollow.  But if that's 
not enough to say they were allied with the Ministry during the 
first war, combining what Sirius says above with the below, I think 
it's a pretty fair bet they were around during the first war.

2.  Dumbledore's comment to Moody in the pensieve: "I have long felt 
the Ministry is wrong to ally itself with such creatures." (GoF Ch 
30, US ed. p 588)  This sounds like the dementors have been around 
for a while, at least for a part of the first war.  Now, I don't 
know why the dementors would choose to ally with the Ministry over 
LV considering their nature and Dumbledore's comment at the end of 
GoF that they wouldn't remain loyal to Fudge  (Ch 36, US ed. p 707) 
but it does seem likely they were Azkaban guards during the first 
war.  

Therefore, it is entirely possible that Petunia was telling the 
truth that she heard about the dementors in the way she says she 
did:  By eavesdropping on Lily and James (I believe Petunia is 
talking about them despite it not being explicitly stated in the 
text).  She is a nosy one, after all.  She doesn't need to have been 
in contact with the WW since receiving Harry to make her knowledge 
of the WW plausible.  However, this doesn't mean I particularly 
believe her knowledge comes from such an obvious source.  This is 
purely my own impression not based on much in canon but I got the 
impression, like Yb and others, that Petunia knows more about the WW 
than Vernon thinks and is in a hurry to cover herself when she spits 
out "her" and "that boy."  

However, I don't believe she has had much, if any, contact with the 
WW independent of Harry.  Rather I am very fond of the theory that 
she's been snooping through Harry's things and has been reading his 
copies of the _Daily Prophet_.  I can't for the life of me remember 
who owns that theory but I like it very much.  

The most likely source of Petunia's knowledge of the WW continues to 
be Lily.  Lily's experience with mixing the Muggle and Wizarding 
Worlds was much more positive than Harry's.  Her parents were proud 
of her.  Where Harry was discouraged from even mentioning anything 
to do with magic, Lily was bringing home frog spawn and practicing 
her magic during holidays.  Lily didn't have to live her life in 
secret.  It's likely Petunia picked up heaps of knowledge about the 
WW by merely snooping around her own sister while they were growing 
up.  

macfotuk:

> > To answer my own question it may be that Umbridge had authorised 
> > them to kill Harry (with a kiss) to shut him up and that 
> > therefore any witness would need taking out too. 

KathyK:  

I believe that is *exactly* what happened.  I think Umbridge wanted 
Harry out of the picture permanently and she is certainly ruthless 
enough to have the dementors administer The Kiss to Harry.  Dudley 
was just a bonus for them, an extra treat... 

KathyK, who has no doubt Mrs. Dursley is All Muggle