Case for Marauders (was Re: Marauders, Voldemort and the Map)

Thu Aug 12 21:37:00 UTC 2004

No: HPFGUIDX 109874

*sigh*  I was going to keep out of this one.  To begin, I agree with 
everything Nora has said in her posts regarding this matter.  

Okay, on with it.

RMM:

> First regarding "James hated the Dark Arts".
I absolutely 100% agree!  The books scream that out loud and clear.
However, the books and JKR have never stated that he NEVER PERFORMED 
THE DARK ARTS.  He may have hated them, but I aver that he performed 
them as Voldemort's right hand man, or close to it.<

KathyK:

You're walking a fine line here and I don't think you're 
succeeding.  He hated them but decided to join up with LV who is all 
about the dark arts and decided to dabble in them anyway.  Why?  
Please tell me why James would choose to do this if he hates the 
Dark Arts so much.  There is *nothing* to back up a claim that he 
performed Dark Arts while the canon that he hated said Dark Arts is 
a good indication that he would not perform them or be a part of a 
group that does do them.  For what?  The sake of cozying up to 
Voldemort who stands for soemthing else he disdains, Pure Bloodism?  
It just doesn't make any sense no matter how much I think about it. 

RMM:

> Why do I say that James is part of the inner circle of the DEs?
Well, canon says loud and clear that Voldemort only pays personal 
attention to those that are close to him.  In other words, Voldemort 
went to the Potters for two reasons that night -- 1) to kill James 
Potter, and 2) to kill Harry Potter.<

KathyK:

And here I thought young Harry with the "power to vanquish the Dark 
Lord" was sufficient reason to go after the Potters.  How very silly 
of me.  So this is why he went after Harry rather than Neville.  It 
had nothing to do with Pettigrew giving up their location.  It had 
nothing to do with Harry being a half-blood like himself.  It was a 
vendetta against Harry's father.  Bad Luck, Harry.  James has messed 
up your life real good, then.  ;-)

RMM:

>He would not compromise himself any more.  And I believe Lily 
helped him see the error of his ways.  Her LOVE saved him, just as 
it saved Harry.<

KathyK: 

The points Nora and others have brought up already that James is not 
a DE are much stronger and more firmly based in what we already know 
than what you are positing.  It is much more in line with canon that 
James wasn't a Death Eater and that he's had a thing for Lily since 
he was at least 15 and that Lily only went out with him in 7th year 
because he deflated his ego.  Much more in line than saying he was 
following around the Dark Arts loving, purge-the-mudbloods-from-the-
world Lord Voldemort until Lily's love saved him.  Why would Lily go 
for James if he was affiliated in any way with a group that 
questioned her right to *exist*?  "James thinks muggleborns are 
second-class citizens at best but he's just so darn cute, I have to 
go out with him?"  It doesn't fly.

And before we get to Remus Lupin's statements in PoA let me add this.

Sirius Black states that he ran away from his home when he was 
sixteen.  He spent his holidays at his good friend, James' house.  
Why did Sirius run away?  He says, "Because I hated the whole lot of 
them: my parents, with their pure-blood mania, convinced that to be 
a Black made you practically royal...my idiot brother, soft enough 
to believe them" (OoP Ch 6, US ed. p. 111).

As I recall it's your contention that MWPP were all at one point 
death eaters.  At least by the age of sixteen we know Sirius Black 
had enough of that.  He left his family.  And he went to JAMES.  
Why would he do this if James Potter was so keen to be Lord 
Voldemort's right-hand man?  Unless all this took place before they 
reached sixteen?  

RMM:

>Lupin the prefect led them into an association with Voldemort.
>That is heavily implied in canon.  See the following from PoA:

> Note what he states in the first paragraph: "He never knew I had 
led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally" and then 
in the second paragraph he states: "admitting that I'd led others 
along with me... "
There is a big difference here.  In the first, he is leading others 
only, and in the second he is leading others AND HIMSELF!
In other words, he can't be referring to the illegal animagi thing, 
for he is not an animagus, nor did he lead himself into it.<

>So, Lupin led himself and others into SOMETHING ELSE.<

KathyK:

False.  Lupin is referring to the fact that he "led" three other 
students along with him to betray Dumbledore's trust and to break 
school (and Ministry) rules by becoming unregistered animagi.  Lupin 
knows that betraying Dumbledore was wrong.  He knew it when he was a 
student, too, and did it anyway.  To me it's clear Lupin blames 
himself for his friends' decision to become animagi and betray 
Dumbledore's trust *along with him.*  However, I don't believe Lupin 
actually is the one who convinced the other three to act in this 
way.  We have canonical evidence that James and Sirius were the ones 
in charge during school.

"Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang."

(PoA Ch 10, US ed. p. 204)

"I think Dumbledore might have hoped that I would be able to 
excercise some control over my best friends," said Lupin. "I need 
scarcely say that I failed dismally."

(OoP Ch 9, US ed. p. 170)

"Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" he said.  "Did I ever have 
the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?"

"Yeah, well," said Sirius, "you made us feel ashamed of ourselves 
sometimes...That was something..."

(OoP Ch 29, US ed. p. 671)

If any of them were leading the others it was Sirius and James.  No 
doubt.  Lupin did not lead them to break rules and he certainly 
didn't influence his friends into becoming Death Eaters.

RMM:

> Sirius Black did not go along with it, until later.  How much 
later?
> About a year later Sirius entered the DEs.

KathyK:

Why so long?  Especially when he at 16, as canonically stated, had 
no use for his dark arts performing, pure blood loving family who 
thought LV had the right idea?  Because *Lupin* said so?  Not a 
chance.  There's no way Sirius or James were death eaters.  There 
are just too many things that don't add up.

Enough from me,

KathyK, rediscovering the yumminess of sun-dried tomatoes