Case for Marauders

[Cathy Drolet]

No: HPFGUIDX 110105

RMM said:
"3.  "though".  "Though" means "in spite of the fact that".  So,
Sirius is welcome at Mr. and Mrs. Potter's for Sunday lunch, in spite of the 
fact that he was now living on his own????  So he would be more 
welcome to visit more if he wasn't living on his own?  The Potters
are upset with him because he is living on his own and so will only 
welcome him on Sunday at lunch?"

DuffyPoo:
Yes, exactly.  In spite of the fact (using your words) that Sirius is considered an adult, quite capable of looking after himself, and is living in his own residence,  he is still 'always' welcome at the Potters for Sunday lunch.  The Potters are not 'upset' with Sirius because he is living on his own, they are sympathetic that he has separated himself from his family, and they are attempting to be a surrogate family.  He is still 'always' welcome in their home for a family meal - Sunday lunch.  Actually, my dictionary shows "though" to mean "nevertheless" (although I'm not here to battle dictionary definitions with you).  So, "When I turned seventeen I got my own place but I was always welcome for Sunday lunch, nevertheless."

RMM said:
"Sorry, but the way this sentence is phrased is loaded with a 
circumstantial case for the fact that Sirius was living on his own
and was welcome at the Potters ONLY for Sunday lunch because he and James 
were not getting along."

DuffyPoo:
To you, perhaps, but not to me. Sirius doesn't say he was *only* allowed for Sunday lunch, that is something you are reading into the text.  He says he was *always welcome* for Sunday lunch, regardless of the fact that he was now an adult, living on his own, responsible for himself, the Potters still wanted him to share family meal with them. By this time, Sirius had divorced himself from his real family and wouldn't want to share a family meal with them, yet the Potters wanted him to have a sense of family by sharing Sunday lunch with them.

---
RMM:
"I understand.  And I agree to a point.  However, there is canon to 
show that a rift occurs between Sirius and James.  Let me explain."

DuffyPoo:
We not going to be able to reconcile on this one.  The canon you use to explain that a rift occurred between Sirus and James is the canon I use to prove there is no rift.  


RMM:
"After 6th year, Sirius gets a place on his own, since he has money to 
do so. So why not go live with the Potters, who have essentially adopted
him, and be with his best friend, and save his money?"

DuffyPoo:
Because he is an adult and doesn't want to rely on the kindness of the Potter family any longer?  (It is exactly what I would have done)  He would only have needed a boarding house, he only needed a place for a bit in the summer - from whenever he turned 17, and removed himself from the Potter residence, until Sept 1.  He could have stayed at Hogwarts for Christmas and Easter holidays.  Even children who are legally adopted, move out of the 'family' home at some point.  There is no reason for Sirius's moving into his own home to be considered a rift between he and James.  At least not as I read it and not to some others who have also posted to this topic.  
The Potters' "sort of" adopting Sirius, to me, means they fed him and let him sleep on the sofa-bed (or spare room, or camp cot in James' room - he would only ever be there for a short periods of time).  If JKR had said "essentially" adopted, as you said, I would think they were taking full responsibility for Sirius, providing not only food and shelter, but clothing, school supplies, medical care, etc., and I just don't get that from Sirius saying he was "sort of adopted".  I was 'sort of' adopted by a two of my friends' familes and I don't think I ever spent a night under either roof.  My best friend in grade school called my house her "second home" and my mom "her other mother" but I don't think she ever spent a night at my house, either.  

DuffyPoo:
>>  [How many people here who had a child fall out with a best friend, 
would continue to invite the former best friend for Sunday lunch?<<

RMM:
"If that person was an adopted second son, I would.  Mr. and Mrs. 
Potter have a very close relationship with Sirius, that much is clear."

DuffyPoo again:
You said it yourself, "IF that person was an adopted second son."  Sirius wasn't adopted, he was 'sort of adopted.'  He knows the difference, he was given food and a place to sleep when he needed it (school holidays).  I don't see any indication that Mr and Mrs Potter have a 'very close' relationship with Sirius.  He is James' friend and is welcomed into their home because they are sympathetic with his plight (despising what his own parents stand for).  By the time James is 17, possibly the only meal the family eats together is Sunday lunch, so that would be the only one Sirius joins them for.  Why would he go for tea on Tuesday if James wasn't going to be there as well?  As close as I was to some of my friends' parents, I wouldn't have gone for a meal if my friend wasn't going to be there as well.  It was, after all, their child that was the friend, not the parents themselves.  

As to Sirius saying "Mr & Mrs Potter" perhaps JKR (or her editor) was just making things clear.  Sirius has said "your dad's place."  This could mean, James had his own place, apart from his parents, or that he was living with Lily's parents.  Sirius goes on to explain, though, that "your grandparents were really good about it" which could still indicate Lily's parents.  "I was always welcome at Mr. and Mrs. Potter's, though" is indicating to the reader, that it is clearly James' parents Sirius was staying with, to avoid any speculating that James living with or raised by anyone other than Mr and Mrs Potter, or that the 'grandparents' were Lily's parents.  ---Just an aside, as I was looking for something else, I saw this "Sirius' face was fuller, and he looked younger, much more like the only photograph Harry had of him, which had been taken at the Potters' wedding." (GoF The Hungarian Horntail)  Now, why did Harry think "at the Potters' wedding" instead of "at his parents' wedding?"  Maybe those pesky editors are trying to clarify things again, because "much more like the only photograph Harry had of [Sirius], which had been taken at his parent's wedding" could be misconstrued, by some, to mean at Sirius' parents' wedding?  Best say "the Potters' wedding" and remove all doubt.  Best to say "always welcome at Mr and Mrs Potters, though" and remove all doubt about where Sirius spent his school holidays before he turned 17.

During this whole conversation in OotP, Sirius has the opportunity to say that he and James had a falling out and that's why he left the Potters and got his own place.  He doesn't, however.  That alone, indicates to me, that they did not, at least, not one that was the cause of his leaving the Potter home.  Sirius has the perfect opportunity to show Harry that even the best of friends fall out, but he didn't, because it didn't happen, at least not in this situation.  Sirius knows Harry and Ron had a brief spell (about three weeks) of not talking to/misunderstanding each other, Harry told him about it when Sirius' head appeared in the Gryffindor fire, "and about Ron, Ron not believing him, Ron's jealousy..." (GoF The Hungarian Horntail).  Here, Sirius has another opportunity to tell Harry that he and James had fallen out, but he didn't;  no "Don't worry about Ron, he'll come around. Your dad and I had a big blow up in sixth year but we got over it," but straight into Karkaroff, Moody, Jorkins, the Dragon.  Yes, Sirius was in a precarious situation and didn't know how long he would have to talk, but as I wrote it, the statement would have only taken a second.  HP is not a questioner normally, but if he had asked why, Sirius could simply have said it was too complex to get into and there were more important things to talk about, like Karkaroff, etc.

RMM:
"Best friends cannot have a fight?  Best friends can't fallout over 
something as serious as one of them wanting to join a pureboodism 
group?"

DuffyPoo:
Certanly best friends can fight and fall out.  The problem here is both James and Sirius are on the same side of the pure-bloodism issue (from canon which has been pointed out before) and would have nothing to fall out over.  Neither of them would be interested in joining a pure-bloodism group.  (Also, I said previously, any time I had a serious falling out with a friend, even though it may have been made up, nothing was ever quite the same - which is not to say James and Sirius wouldn't be better at it than I was - just that I would never have trusted that someone with anything as important as being a child's godparent or a Secret-Keeper, after such a falling out.)

RMM:
"I would say that all four "appeared" to have left the group.  They
all went to DD and told him what was going on, and they all joined
the Order of the Phoenix when it was formed."

DuffyPoo:
Back a few days ago you said, "The true purpose was exposed. The loyal stayed and the others left. The Marauders, minus one, left."  You didn't say then, that the Marauders "appeared" to leave, you said they "left," all except PP.  My point to that post was that, if James, Sirius and Lupin left the 'organization' and PP stayed behind, when the time came for DD to start the Order of the Phoenix (or probably before, IMO, as soon as they left the group they would have gone to DD and informed him of the crap the organization leader was spouting, and how they got caught up in it), the three deserters would have explained about the 'organization' and that PP had stayed behind, still 'in' the 'organization.'  PP would likely not have been in the OotP, (unless Puppetmaster!Dumbledore wanted a spy in the Order!) Sirius would never have considered switching places with him as S-K, and James would have never gone for the idea anyway.

I guess I just can't reconcile that DD would be stupid enough to hire LV to teach at Hogwarts.  Canon says TR resurfaced as LV, so he would have been hired as LV.  If we believe that LV resurfaced in 1970, he would be busy gaining power and associates until 1976, I'd think, not teaching Dark Arts at Durmstrang so he could get an employment reference from Karkaroff to work at Hogwarts (would Karkaroff have been the Headmaster then?  How would he explain absences to go run LV's errands and do his dirty work?  How would he explain having to disapparate at a second's notice when the Dark Mark burned on his arm? The people he squealed on were "Important supporters, mark you. People I saw with my own eyes doing his bidding." He would have had to be away from the school for more than just school holidays, one would think, with all the descriptions he gave of seeing the DEs he was turning in.)   

I believe DD was one of the few who knew TR was LV, because he had been keeping a close eye on him ever since the original CoS incident.  TR said himself that he believed DD had guessed it was he who opened the Chamber, and kept an annoyingly close eye on him after.  TR told HP, through the diary, that "In my day, they told us it [the chamber of secrets] was a legend, that it did not exist."  DD would have been aware of the 'legend' as well, and when the legendary chamber was opened, and he guessed it was TR who opened it, he would have continued keeping an annoyingly close eye on TR even after he left Hogwarts.  DD would know from the legend that only Slytherin's heir could open the chamber, knew what Slytherin's opinion of Muggle-borns was, may suspect TR was after accomplishing the same thing, and on a path to becoming another SS.  That's why DD knew TR had gone travelling far and wide, consorting with the worst of our kind, sinking deeply into the Dark Arts, undergoing dangerous magical transformations, because he kept an eye on him, an annoyingly close eye.  DD said "when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was *barely* recognizable." (emphasis mine).  Barely recognizable, but recognizable to him, DD, who had kept a close eye on him for years.

Oh, something I just thought of.  The Marauders have joined this 'special DE organization.'  Would Snape not have belonged to it as well, it was right up his alley and he ended up a DE?  Yet Snape never, ever, tells HP that his father had been a DE, or that Sirius had been a DE, or that they had ever belonged to such an organization and it would certainly be in character for Snape to do so.  "Your father was a DE too, you know, but turned chicken and ran.  That's why he was murdered by the Dark Lord."  Doesn't happen.  The DEs were kept in the dark about each other, we know that from canon. Yet this 'special organization' would have brought a good number together, too many. Only the ones that needed to be aware of each other were, and only LV knew who they all were.  Good thing or Karkaroff would have spilled his guts on all of them.   "Voldemort moved on, and stopped, staring at the space -- large enough for two people -- which separated Malfoy and *the next man.*"  Why did LV not mention *the next man's* name?  Either because it is not important to the story (doubtful) or because LV (and JKR) doesn't want the others (or us) to know who he is (more likely).  The same reason he passed by so many others without mentioning the name of who was behind the mask.  Harry figures he's out-numbered 30 to 1 in the graveyard, yet the only names spoken by LV are Wormtail, of course, Avery, Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, the Lestranges, and Macnair, the DEs the others he passed by are already aware of, IMO.  Every one of the thirty in that group know Malfoy, Avery, Macnair, etc are DEs but they (Malfoy, etc) don't know the others who are under the masks.



That's enough for me on this subject.  I've been working on this e-mail for nearly four hours.  I cannot read the books and see anywhere that LV taught anything at Hogwarts, never mind had a special activities group going.  I cannot see that the Marauders would have ever joined this group, knowing what we have been shown of them, or became DE's (apart from PP of course).  I cannot see that Sirius left the Potters' home at seventeen because he was no longer friends with James.   So I will forthwith stay out of the subject, which I'm sure will be appreciated by all who read these huge postings of mine. ;-)  I will, however, be the first to admit I am wrong if any of this pans out in the next two books.

DuffyPoo



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