Hopefully it's not that simple (was: LV never loved anyone)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 110631

SSSusan wrote :
>>> "These are JKR's words, and the fact that she used the words--
about TOM specifically--"choices" and "wrong" seems highly 
significant.  No, I doubt he said, "I want to be evil when I grow up" 
but that was never my argument.  He had CHOICES and he made WRONG 
ones, per JKR.  That's been my point:  choices."  I'm going on my 
gut, my training, and JKR's words.<<<

Del replied :
> But don't you believe that people, especially kids, can make wrong
> decisions without realising they are wrong ? 


SSSusan:
Yes, I do think that can happen.  But at this point, I think that 
what *I* think doesn't matter much.  Let's move on to your next 
comment so I can clarify....


Del:
> And yes I'm quite vehement about Tom because JKR's statement that he
> never loved deeply shocked me. I know what abandonment can do to a
> child, so I already could relate to Tom before that. But to read 
> that he was so damaged that he never was able to love brought a 
> whole new dimension to the story, at least in my eyes. In fact, I 
> truly hope that she didn't mean things that simply, that she just 
> made an over-statement, and that Tom was not that damaged. Or else 
> I hope it will all come to play a part in the end, in relation with 
> Harry's love and compassion. Because otherwise I would feel that it 
> in fact unnecessarily takes away from LV's evilness.


SSSusan:
NOW we're getting somewhere, Del!!  Yes, we both want there to be 
MUCH MORE to what JKR has told us about Tom & Voldy, because if there 
isn't, it doesn't yet make total sense.  Psychopath... evil... never 
loved anyone... possibly never knew love... wrong choices [tactical 
or moral, thank you Pippin]....  While intriguing, it's hard to put 
*all* these pieces together into a complete, sensible package that 
satisfies people's understandings of psychopathology, emotional & 
moral development, and free will.

Here's what Pam recently said:
>>However, I really think that (whether we ever agree on the concept
of degrees of moral responsibility in real life) in the books, for
LV to be a great master criminal/truly diabolical villain, he has to
be seen as having *chosen* his path. Otherwise, he's just pathetic
and pitiable, and just not nasty enough for this type of fantasy
literature.<<

SSSusan again:
FINALLY, I think we're at the point where we've found common ground 
in this.  What Del said about hoping JKR didn't mean things that 
simply, and what Pam said about Tom/Voldy *having* to be seen as 
having chosen his path or else he's just pitiable and not diabolical 
are actually in agreement, I think.  We need more explanation from 
JKR so that this all fits with what we know about emotional 
development, moral judgment, psychopathology, etc.  

And here's the kicker for me:  I *trust* JKR to be able to do this.  
So far she's done precious little with the books to disappoint me, 
and I'm going to move merrily along on my way, believing that Tom did 
CHOOSE to some degree, because I think it's *not* as simple as the 
things JKR has fed us so far and that she will fill in the gaps to 
make it understandable.  (Please!!)

Siriusly Snapey Susan