[HPforGrownups] Re: Depression and Harry in OotP

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 110708

On 19 Aug 2004 at 22:06, delwynmarch wrote:

> Del replies :
> Well then I don't think Harry was depressed in OoP.

Well, I'd just like to weigh in with an opinion on this 
conversation. Let me explain where I am coming from. From the age 
of 12 onwards, I suffered from significant clinical depression. 
This is not a matter of any real dispute - I spent ten years 
suffering from it and I remember the experience particularly 
vividly. I had to endure it, because there were reasons why 
medication wasn't a good idea, and counselling alone wasn't enough 
to alleviate it. I self medicated with tubes of Nestle condensed 
milk, but that was about the only semi-effective treatment (-8

There were reasons - triggers - for my depression, but in my case, 
it was also chemical in nature, so even when the triggers were 
absent, it didn't go away. It was fairly severe - I did have 
significant thoughts of suicide at times, but perhaps the best 
indication of what it was like is when my father died, a man I 
greatly loved, shortly before my sixteenth birthday - well, I 
actually became slightly less depressed as a result of that 
experience. When I talk about being depressed, I'm not talking 
about a particularly mild form.

And my view, based on my experiences, is that Harry in Order of the 
Phoenix definitely shows very real signs of depression.
 
> "Low mood or marked loss of pleasure" 
> No. Harry had low times, granted, but he's not feeling low most of the
> time. He's feeling angry and frustrated, but not low. And he most
> definitely doesn't have a constant loss of pleasure, he still enjoys
> what he's always liked : the company of his friends (except when they
> start bickering or when they annoy him), Quidditch, Sirius's letters,
> or just being at Hogwarts. In fact, he himself makes the remark that
> Umbridge seems to be trying to take away everything that gives him
> pleasure, which implies that he still does get pleasure from those
> things. But then he gets his revenge by taking pleasure in teaching
> the DA anyway.

You have to bear in mind that depression does not necessairly mean 
feeling low, all or even most of the time. It can mean that, but it 
doesn't have to. As I've said, I suffered from severe depression as 
a teen, but that doesn't mean I was *always* feeling low. I had 
significant periods when I was actually quite happy. In my case, 
the signs of my depressive illness wasn't that I had a low mood all 
the time - it was the fact that I had a low mood as a 'default' 
mood.

It's normal to be depressed if bad things are happening to you. 
Depressive illness (not the best term, perhaps, but I don't want to 
get into semantics) is when you are depressed even when nothing bad 
is happening to you. At least that is one form of depression - the 
form I had. If good things were happening to me, I was as happy as 
most people would be. But... well, basically I didn't have a 
neutral position. I was either happy when I had a reason to be - or 
deeply, deeply unhappy, if I didn't have a reason to be happy. I 
was unhappy whether bad things were happening - or whether my life 
was entirely satisfactory, just not good.

I was perfectly capable of pleasure. I sought it out. And I found 
it. But *unless* I was actively enjoying myself, I rapidly slid 
into depression. And that's what I see in Harry. His 'default 
setting' seems depressed to me.

> "Significant change in appetite and marked weight loss"
> 
> We haven't seen that. Except when he does have a depressive episode
> and starves himself for a day or two, but otherwise he's got as
> healthy an appetite as ever.

This is one thing where in a minority of cases, the symptom of 
depression can actually be the reverse of the norm. While many 
depressives give up on food to an extent, for others it becomes a 
comfort.

The food that is described as available at Hogwarts, is, IMHO, 
excellent comfort food!

When I was depressed I didn't stop eating. In fact, eating became 
one of the easiest places for me to find the moments of pleasure 
that temporarily alleviated my depression. And the food I had to 
eat wasn't Hogwarts quality.
 
> "Sleep disturbance"
> 
> Well sure his sleep is disturbed, but not by depression.

"A little from column a and a little from column b'. Perhaps we 
can't really make a good assessment on this, because of the other 
things.
 
> "Feelings of worthlessness, low self-esteen, tendency to feel guilty"
> 
> Harry does have times when he feels guilty. But they are quite rare
> and they never last. As for feeling worthless or having a low
> self-esteem, I don't see that at all. Even in the middle of his
> hellish summer, he's still aware of everything he's accomplished.

Yes, but... well, again, so was I - not that my accomplishments 
were anywhere near like Harry's, of course. But I would argue 
(because this is what happened to me), that being aware of your 
accomplishments may very easily be a defence mechanism to the 
feelings of guilt, or worthlessness, or low self-esteem that are 
common (though not universal) in depression. The mind tries to 
fight depression in many cases, consciously and unconsciously. If 
you're feeling low, you do often bring memories of past 
achievements to the fore. And they can help.

> "Inability to concentrate"
> 
> No, I don't think so.

I suppose Binns' classes don't count (-8

But again, not universal. I often became hyperfocused when I was 
most depressed, rather than losing the ability to concentrate.

> "Thoughts of death and suicide."
> 
> I can't remember. Maybe it happened a few times, but it's nowhere as
> bad as it should get to be a symptom of depression. 

I can't remember either - but seriously, *any* though of suicide in 
a teen is a potential symptom of depression to be taken very 
seriously if there are any other clear symptoms. By itself, the 
occasional thought probably isn't a big deal - but if there's 
anything else going on, it very well may be.

> So no I don't think Harry is depressed. He has low mood episodes, when
> things go particularly wrong, but that's normal. He's full of anger
> and especially of frustration, but that's absolutely normal under the
> circumstances.

Yes, it is. But so would depression be. And anger and frustration 
are common symptoms of depression - *especially* in teenage boys 
who have very few other socially acceptable ways of expressing 
depressed feelings.

Honestly... considering what Harry saw at the end of Goblet of 
Fire, and the lack of opportunity he's had to process it (except 
for that one brief period with Molly Weasley at the end of Goblet 
of Fire - one of my favourite scenes in all the novels, because I 
know what experiences like that can do to you if you don't have 
that chance to let it out), I'd be quite surprised if he doesn't 
have a measure of depression - considering he does have frustration 
and anger, anyway.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
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