[HPforGrownups] Re: Depression and Harry in OotP

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 110780

On 20 Aug 2004 at 12:19, delwynmarch wrote:

> Shaun wrote :
> "I was perfectly capable of pleasure. I sought it out. And I found 
> it. But *unless* I was actively enjoying myself, I rapidly slid into
> depression. And that's what I see in Harry. His 'default setting'
> seems depressed to me."
> 
> Del replies :
> I guess we just don't see Harry the same way, because I don't see that
> his defaut setting has changed from the previous books. In my eyes, he
> has only added an alternative setting : anger. But when he's neither
> angry nor happy nor anything special, I just don't see that he's
> depressed. At least, no more than he was before OoP. Now if someone
> wants to make a case that Harry's been suffering from a sort of mild
> depression right from PS/SS, that's another thing entirely and I might
> agree.

Well, in fact, that is pretty much what I'd argue - I think Harry 
has probably been in a mild depressive state the whole time we've 
been reading about him, probably due to his upbringing in a fairly 
loveless environment.

What's changed in Order of the Phoenix, in my view, is twofold.

Firstly, any depression has become more focused by the events that 
occurred at the end of Goblet of Fire. GoF is *different* from the 
previous novels. Bad things happen to Harry during the course of 
Philosopher's Stone and Chamber of Secrets, but they are more or 
less resoved by the end of the year. Harry doesn't have to spend 
his entire summer holidays brooding over what happened to him the 
previous year, because it is over. The Philosopher's Stone is safe. 
Tom Riddle is contained, the Chamber is safe. The same is more or 
less true at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban - where *most* issues 
have been resolved at the end of the book - although Harry does 
have one carry over issue in that for a brief period he thought he 
was going to be free of the Dursley's, only to have that hope 
dashed. But most of the issues have gone away for the summer - they 
ended before he left Hogwarts for the year.

Goblet of Fire is *very* different. The events of the end of Goblet 
of Fire don't go away. Harry had to confront evil, and real 
devastation in a way he hadn't ever had to, except as a baby. Harry 
has to deal with Cedric being killed next to him, and the knowledge 
that this is the start of something else. He has much more to deal 
with and brood over than he ever has before. And he has nobody to 
turn to for help to deal with these things.

Harry is having to deal with things that are *far* worse than he 
has before. That changes the way he sees the world. I think he has 
probably been prone to depression since at least the age of 11 - 
he's just been resilient enough to, for the most part, keep it at 
bay. But resilience has limits.

In Harry's case, though, he does have one big advantage in dealing 
with a depression. One way people, especially teens, deal with 
depressive episodes is to turn them into anger. It gives them an 
outlet for their depression. In the absence of a decent target for 
their anger, many direct it at their families and friends (and 
Harry does this to an extent). But Harry has the huge advantage 
that he actually does have a real, legitimate, target for his 
anger. He has every reason and every right to be angry at Lord 
Voldemort. He has a legitimate focus - and I think that legitimate 
focus, to an extent at least, probably attenuates other expressions 
of depression.

The second issue that's different in Order of the Phoenix is... 
now, how do I put this? Okay - I mentioned in my earlier post that 
I was deeply depressed for most of my adolescence. That depression 
was initially triggered by a hideously bad school environment. And 
by the same token, the primary reason I survived my adolescent 
depression was because I wound up in an absolutely wonderful school 
environment. One of the reasons the Harry Potter books appealed to 
me when I first read them was because Harry's reaction to Hogwarts 
as a place of wonder, so mirrored my own to the school I attended 
when I was 13 in many ways. The time I started at that school was 
the time of my deepest, darkest, depression, and if I hadn't gone 
to that school, I think there's a very high probability I wouldn't 
have survived the following year. I was that depressed. The only 
reason I didn't kill myself was because I was promised this new 
school would be far far better - and it lived up to that (despite 
the presence of Snape-like teachers!).

I mention all that, because I think something similar applies to 
Harry, though to what degree it's true is hard to say precisely. I 
think Harry, very much, loves Hogwarts. It is his sanctuary. It's 
the place where he has his heart and his soul. It's the place he 
loves to be. It's the place where his depression is alleviated 
(assuming, of course, it exists). Harry has seemed less depressed 
in the first four books *because* of the existence of Hogwarts. His 
sanctuary. His place of happiness.

Now consider Order of the Phoenix.

I don't think anyone would argue that Harry spends his time at the 
Dursley's constantly wanting to return to Hogwarts. Well, one of 
Harry's first experiences in Order of the Phoenix is having to live 
under the threat that that will not happen. He's been told he is 
expelled. Imagine that... imagine being told that the place you've 
been happy at for the last four years is somewhere you may not be 
allowed to return to. If there's a trace of depression in your 
psyche, that's going to bring it a bit further forward in some 
fashion or another. When Harry is cleared - his happiness is 
obvious and incredible.

But when he gets to Hogwarts, it's no longer the sanctuary it was. 
Umbridge's presence sees to that. The stories about him in the 
Daily Prophet sees to that. He hasn't been made a Prefect. He winds 
up being banned from Quidditch. He is constantly punished for 
lying, when he is telling the truth...

His sanctuary is flawed. His place of safety has changed 
immeasurably.

Again, if Harry has been suffering from a mild depression all his 
adolescence, or if he's just been prone to it, it would be abnormal 
under the circumstances for it not to become more pronounced given 
what he is having to deal with now.

Hogwarts in Order of the Phoenix, is a very different place for 
Harry (not just Harry - for all the students).  
 
> Shaun wrote :
> " in a minority of cases, the symptom of depression can actually be
> the reverse of the norm. While many depressives give up on food to an
> extent, for others it becomes a comfort."
> 
> Del replies :
> I happen to know that very well from personal experience. It's even a
> warning sign between my husband and me : when I start eating too much
> junk food, that's a sure sign that depression is coming back. Quite
> often my husband will notice it before me !

Yes, but that's only one way it expresses itself (and it does that 
for me as well).

Del: 
> But Harry doesn't seem to have any food-related problem of any kind.
> He doesn't starve himself, but he doesn't stuff himself either. He
> enjoys eating, but he always did and that's healthy. He has no problem
> skipping meals if he needs time to study, he doesn't look for
> opportunities to nick food from the kitchens, or whatever. If anyone
> has a food problem in the Trio, it's Ron : he's got an unhealthy love
> for sweets, and he never skips (and even actively looks for)
> opportunities to stuff himself. 

The point is, I'm not saying that Harry has an eating problem - 
because I don't think he does. My point was that the idea that 
depression leads to a change in appetite, and weight loss, is 
hardly universal. For many depressives, the exact opposite can 
happen - and for a significant number, there may be no real change 
at all.

In the Hogwarts environment, where the food seems so good, I would 
assume that a healthy teenaged boy is already eating at least as 
much of it as is good for him - and given the number of stairs 
those kids have to climb everyday, they can probably eat a fair 
bit. When people overeat for pleasure (as depressives quite often 
do), it's generally because it's overeating that is giving them 
pleasure. If the food itself is wonderful (pleasure giving) to 
start with, there's less incentive for that to happen.

I'm not saying Harry has an eating problem... I'm trying to figure 
out how to say what my point is.

Serious generalisation follows: Depressives are only likely to 
undereat if eating is a chore. The reason depressives tend to 
undereat in many cases, is because they have lost interest in food, 
just as they've lost interest in other areas of their lives.

If eating is not a chore - for example, if the food is unusually 
good, that is much less likely to happen.

Junk food does complicate matters slightly - but while the Hogwarts 
diet doesn't seem incredibly healthy by muggle standards, it 
doesn't seem to me to include a lot of junk food.

Susanna/pigwidgeon37's essay at the Lexicon outlines the type of 
food they eat (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-food.html):

"Roast beef, roast chicken, fried sausages, stew, casserole, tripe 
(which McGonagall ironically offers Trelawney in PA), pork chops, 
shepherd’s pie, steak, Cornish pasties, lamb chops, sausages, bacon 
and steak, steak and kidney pudding, steak and kidney pie, black 
pudding, sandwiches (chicken and ham, for Harry and Ron in CS); 
bread, marshmallows and crumpets (Harry and Ron roast them over the 
Common room fire during the Christmas holidays in PS/SS), baked 
pumpkin (at Halloween), roast potatoes, jacket potatoes, boiled 
potatoes, mashed potatoes, chips, Yorkshire Pudding, peas, sprouts, 
carrots, gravy, ketchup, custard tart, Mint Humbugs, ice cream, 
apple pies, treacle tart, Spotted Dick, chocolate éclairs, 
chocolate gateau, jam doughnuts, Trifle, strawberries, jelly, and 
rice pudding."

While most moder nutritionists would probably roll their eyes at an 
entire diet like that, most of it really doesn't fall into the 
category of junk food.

The kids do eat 'junk food' - sweets, most notably - as nearly all 
kids do when they have the chance, and some probably overindulge on 
occasions (as many kids do when they have the chance). But overall, 
I actually suspect their intake of sweets, etc, is actually fairly 
low. There's no sign of a tuck shop at Hogwarts - in term time, 
they can certainly get sweets when they can go into Hogsmeade, but 
opportunities to do that are fairly limited (at least, official 
opportunities are - I've always found the fact that there is a 
secret tunnel between Britain's only Wizarding School, and one of 
the best Wizarding sweetshops in the country, very amusing. I have 
a mental image of generations of Hogwarts students digging a few 
feet a year, knowing that one day, ONE DAY, in the distant future, 
they will achieve the ultimate objective!) My view of teenage 
children with the type of access to sweets that Hogwarts students 
have, is that, the vast majority would probably absolutely binge on 
sweets after a Hogsmeade weekend (poor Madam Pomfrey!), but very 
few sweets would last until Tuesday - meaning that most of the 
time, they are not eating many at all.

Hogwarts actually has a fairly healthy and nutritious diet - 
*provided* the children are getting adequate exercise. And as 
someone who used to have to climb three levels of stairs a day, 
everyday, while he was at school, on multiple occasions, I find it 
*very* easy to believe that in a seven floor castle, with even 
towers, and one hundred and forty two staircases, that the kids are 
getting all the aerobic workout they need!
 
> Shaun wrote :
> " being aware of your accomplishments may very easily be a defence
> mechanism to the feelings of guilt, or worthlessness, or low
> self-esteem that are common (though not universal) in depression. The
> mind tries to fight depression in many cases, consciously and
> unconsciously. If you're feeling low, you do often bring memories of
> past achievements to the fore. And they can help."
> 
> Del replies :
> I understand that. But the thing is, Harry seems to have a healthy
> understanding of his accomplishments : he knows he's done great things
> (and gets upset when people seem to overlook that), but he's also
> aware that he's no superhero, and he gets upset when Ron and Hermione
> seem to see more in what he did than he himself does. Harry is pretty
> good as identifying what is his doing or not, in good things as in bad
> things : he knows he's beaten LV at the graveyard, but he also knows
> that he couldn't have done it without the help he received, and he
> also knows he could not have saved Cedric no matter what. He's not
> feeling either overly proud nor overly guilty. Doesn't sound like
> depression to me.

Well, then, you have a very different view of depression than the 
type I experienced.

That's the thing that has to be borne in mind - there's no single 
experience of depression. Just a lot of generalities.

Quite frankly, what I see in Harry is rather similar in this 
respect to what I went through. I knew I had achieved pretty nice 
things... not in the same league as Harry, of course, but, as one 
example, when I was 12, I became the youngest (by over two years) 
student in my state to ever reach the all-Secondary Schools public 
speaking finals, competing againt kids who were up to 17, along 
with a host of other significant academic awards. I had *real* 
achievements to look at, and I was proud of them. But I was also 
aware of my own limitations. I didn't exagerate my 'good 
achievements', nor did I - except for brief periods when I was in 
the absolute deepest throes of depression, undervalue them.

I didn't feel overly proud. Or overly guilty. I felt a bit of both, 
depending on what I was thinking about. And I most assuredly was 
depressed.

People have to be very careful in generalising about depression. I 
see Harry as depressed, partly because what I see is in many ways, 
very similar to what I experienced - but there are also some rather 
significant differences.
 
> Shaun wrote, about the inability to concentrate :
> "I suppose Binns' classes don't count (-8
> 
> But again, not universal. I often became hyperfocused when I was most
> depressed, rather than losing the ability to concentrate."
> 
> Del replies :
> Well, if Binns's classes count, I guess pretty much every student in
> Harry's class is depressed, except for Hermione :-)
> 
> As for hyperfocus, we don't see much of that either, except in the
> situations that require it.

Ah, but I'm not saying, hyperfocus is common. I've seen it - but it 
actually seems fairly uncommon to me. My point in mentioning it, is 
because it illustrates that this is not a black and white issue - 
like most of the diagnostic characteristics of depression. Even if 
most people have a particular symptom, there may be a minority who 
are quite the opposite - and even more who fall in between the two 
outliers.
 
> Shaun wrote :
> " And anger and frustration are common symptoms of depression -
> *especially* in teenage boys who have very few other socially
> acceptable ways of expressing depressed feelings."
> 
> Del replies :
> You've got a point there. But still I'm not sure this anger can be
> taken as a sure sign of depression. I would take this anger for just
> what it is : anger and frustration at being called a liar and not
> being able to defend himself. Anyone would be angry in his situation,
> without any need to call in depression.

Yes, and no, in my view.

Harry certainly has a reason to be angry when he's called a liar, 
and not able to defend himself. But a lot of his anger *doesn't* 
have any nice, clear, single cause like that. There's some cases 
where he has clear reasons. But there's plenty where I don't think 
he does.

People need to bear in mind that a person who is suffering from 
depression that doesn't have a reason, can also, at the same time, 
be depressed for a reason.

A person who has a depressive illness, and who is suddenly falsely 
accused and punished, for example, may now have a legitimate reason 
to be depressed. But that doesn't mean that the depressive illness 
has suddenly vanished or become irrelevant.

Harry does have some legitimate reasons for being depressed. But I 
think there's a lot more going on than just normal reactions.
 
> Shaun wrote :
> "Honestly... considering what Harry saw at the end of Goblet of Fire,
> and the lack of opportunity he's had to process it (except for that
> one brief period with Molly Weasley at the end of Goblet of Fire - one
> of my favourite scenes in all the novels, because I know what
> experiences like that can do to you if you don't have that chance to
> let it out), I'd be quite surprised if he doesn't have a measure of
> depression - considering he does have frustration and anger, anyway."
> 
> Del replies :
> As I said in another post, I was *expecting* Harry to experience some
> kind of depression at the end of GoF. But when I started OoP, I saw
> that JKR didn't seem to be taking him in that direction. I was
> actually quite surprised at how *little* he seemed to be feeling bad
> when awake. He's angry and frustrated, sure, and he even goes into an
> alternating pattern of overdrive and stupor after the Dementor attack,
> but he never seems to dwell on Cedric's death or on anything else.
> He's looking *forward*, he's in a *positive* mood concerning the war,
> he has a healthy dose of self-esteem, he's sure of his capacities, and
> so on. That was confusing to me at first, especially considering that
> we are told that he's got nightmares about the graveyard almost every
> night. And then I understood that the answer might be precisely that :
> his brain is processing the events at night, so Harry doesn't have to
> process them during the day. After all, we're talking about a boy who
> showed almost no sign of dysfunction after being abused for 10 years !
> It's not such a strech to assume that he must have a very effective
> built-in coping mechanism.

No, it isn't.

But frankly, if Harry didn't have a very effective coping 
mechanism, I'd expect to see him in St Mungo's by now.

Harry seems to me to have an unusual level of resilience for a 
child his age, right from the start of Philosopher's Stone.

As he gets older, I think his resilience does increase - but so do 
the pressures that are constantly building on him.

Now, using myself as an example again, I was probably the opposite 
in this regard. I lacked resilience, I was less resilient than the 
normal child when I was 11 or 12. That's one major reason why I 
collapsed into extremely awful and obvious depression at that age. 
But as I got older, my resilience did increase (both 'naturally' 
and with help - help that Harry isn't getting).

The fact that Harry hasn't collapsed into a gibbering heap means he 
probably is unusually strong, and has probably found unusually 
strong defence mechanisms to deal with what assaults him. That's 
great - and to his credit.

But here's the thing...

Resilience doesn't always *stop* people from becoming depressed, 
when they have good reason to be. It *can* do that, for some 
people. But it doesn't always.

What it can mean is merely that you are able to cope with your 
depression - and that's what I see in Harry.

If Harry *wasn't* depressed, I would, actually expect him *to* 
dwell on Cedric's death. You see that as a sign that Harry is not 
depressed. I think it's very likely to be the exact opposite. A 
'healthy' reaction to what Harry saw happen to Cedric would involve 
thinking about it quite a bit.

The fact that Harry doesn't do so, is because his mind is 
*defending* against what he saw. It's not absorbing it. It's not 
processing it in a healthy way. It's simply shielding itself. Now, 
Harry, isn't in total denial by any means, but I would say his 
unconscious refusal to think about this - and I do think that is 
what is going on. It's not a sign of psychological health if your 
mind won't let you think about genuinely bad experiences or shields 
you from them.

I went through something, somewhat similar I think. At the end of 
my fourth form year at school, my father died very suddenly. The 
thing is... you have to understand that the way school worked where 
I am back then, your last two years of secondary school - Year 11 
and 12, Form V and VI, almost completely determined your 
educational future. They really did determine where you could go to 
university, and what course you could do.

My father died just before this two year period started for me. I 
couldn't afford the luxury of time to grieve. So I locked my 
feelings down as much as I could, and refused to think about what 
had happened to me and what I'd lost. Because I could not afford to 
do that. I decided - and I think I was right to decide that - that 
the best way I could honour my father was to do well in my 
education, especially seeing that the main thing that killed him 
was stress, and the main cause of his stress was me and my 
education. I had to lock my feelings down. I didn't do it 
perfectly. I didn't completely fail to process it. But to a huge 
extent, I simply locked away the feelings. I didn't dwell on them. 
I did look forward, all the time, to the future. My self esteem was 
probably the best it had been since I was 8 years old, my mood was 
upbeat and positive. I was more confident of what I could achieve 
than I ever was before.

Pretty much matches the way you describe Harry in Order of the 
Phoenix.

But was I still deeply depressed? Of course, I was. Had my 
depressive illness gone away? No, it hadn't. Was I behaving in a 
psychologically healthy fashion... actually I'm not sure. I think 
given the reality I was facing, my attitude was reasonably healthy. 
And that may be true for Harry as well.

But even if Harry is dealing with depression the best way he can, 
given the situation he's found he's found himself in - that 
wouldn't mean the depression isn't there.
 
What I see in Harry - and this is just my perception, based on my 
experiences, and a little bit of knowledge of depression from 
outseide my experiences - is a remarkable boy whose resilience is 
preventing him from being crushed in a situation where he would 
have every reason to crumple.

The fact he doesn't, may say a great deal about his character, and 
his strength, and his power, and his self esteem, and his self 
image, and his self confidence.

But it doesn't really necessarily say anything at all to say that 
he's not dealing with depression.

You expected to see Harry depressed in Order of the Phoenix, but 
because Harry's depression didn't match what your schema tells you 
depression is, you don't see him as depressed.

Whereas, in my case, it matches my schema of depression extremely 
well.

I *know* I was depressed. I can't *know* that for Harry, of course. 
But I can say, that what I see and read in him is very, very 
familiar.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia