Quick to define Harry as "clinically depressed"?

[anthyroserain]

No: HPFGUIDX 110897

Dreadnought:
> While you may be correct, I find it just slightly disturbing to 
see 
> some of the attitudes towards clinical depression that are being 
> expressed on this list.
> Above is one example: "Those who become clinically depressed do 
so, 
> in a cyclical fashion regardless of their environment, and have 
> difficulty finding their way out."  
> 
> Too many people here, seem to me to have a very narrow view of 
what 
> clinical depression is, of what depression is. And unless Harry 
> fits their own narrow definition, it's obvious to them he's not 
> depressed.

Katie:

First of all, let me please explain that I mean not to cause 
offense. What follows is (naturally) very much my own 
opinion, and is not meant as a criticism of your opinion in any way, 
but rather as a defense of what you characterize as a "very 
narrow view".

I don't think I have a very narrow view of what clinical depression 
is (Yes, you weren't really talking about me, but I can only speak 
from my own viewpoint, of course :) ) But I don't like seeing *any* 
depressive emotions characterized as clinical depression. The fact 
is that there have to be some guidelines established or those words 
become meaningless. 
 
[snip]
> It was, in no way, cyclical. They looked for cycles. There were 
> none that they could find.

Tiny point: I think (though I may be wrong, and please speak up, 
syroun, if I am) that you may have misunderstood syroun's use of the 
word "cyclical". (syroun's original quote: "Those who become 
clinically depressed do so, in a cyclical fashion regardless of 
their environment, and have difficulty finding their way out.") I 
think syroun meant it not in the sense of "in cycles" but that it is 
recurrent if not treated. 

> My point is that there's no such thing as a single definition, or 
a 
> single expression of clinical depression. There are common 
> characteristics that a lot of clinically depressed people have - 
> but in virtually any case, there will always be exceptions.
>
> I'm not saying the lists of symptoms are a bad idea, and I 
> certainly think its totally valid for someone to use such a list 
to 
> try and decide whether or not Harry is depressed - but by the same 
> token, I think people really need to constantly bear in mind that 
> these lists of symptoms are *very* generalised. 
> 
> I certainly can't say Harry is depressed with anything like 100% 
> certainty. What I can say is what I see in him matches many of the 
> symptoms of the depression I suffered, rather closely. There's a 
> large distinction between those two ideas.

       Yes, Harry's feelings at times match the feelings of a 
clinically depressed person, but that's, I think, because those 
feelings are universal. Any realistic depiction in fiction of a 
normal, human character, particularly one that stretches through 
five event-filled books, is bound to show that character feeling 
depressed at some point. What distinguishes clinically depressed 
people from others is that they have those feelings most of the 
time, and without reasonable cause. I don't see that this fits 
Harry. He has mood swings like any teenager, and he is upset over 
the very real traumas he has experienced. I think he may
well suffer from grief-related depression, but I wouldn't 
characterize it as 
chronic or severe.

        To sum up, I agree with you: I don't think that we can 
definitively prove or disprove whether Harry is clinically 
depressed. (I'm not sure JKR would be certain if we asked her!) 
The list of symptoms is certainly not infallible, but I think most 
posters who think he isn't depressed don't say this just because
he doesn't fit a very narrow set of symptoms, but because there is 
insufficient evidence in addition to make that conclusion.

(A note: You may wonder where I get off saying all this. I'm 
certainly no expert, but, like quite a few others on this list, I 
have been clinically depressed and in treatment for several years.)

To go back to HP, I experienced a small shock of recognition when 
reading about Sirius in OOTP, as you did when reading about Harry. 
The perfectly subjective and slightly hypocritical distinction I 
draw is that Sirius seems to be in a low mood most of the time and 
behaves quite differently than Harry. (For what it's worth, I don't 
think Sirius is bipolar, because his "good moods" never really seem 
out-of-control or dangerous as they can with mania, and his reckless 
behavior occurs when he is unhappy or desperate. But, as I've just 
said, I'm biased about that.) 

The interior passages JKR writes for Harry show him to be 
sad and lonely some of the time, but these moods pass and don't seem 
to dominate his behavior as they do Sirius's. In other words, JKR 
writes Harry from inside-out, while she writes Sirius from outside-
in. If she were writing Harry as a "limited" character, I think far 
fewer of us would consider him seriously depressed, considering his 
behavior. But of course that doesn't take into account that he could 
be the sort of person who hides depression very well...

respectfully,
Katie