[HPforGrownups] Re: Quick to define Harry as "clinically depressed"?

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 110904

On 22 Aug 2004 at 9:18, anthyroserain wrote:

> Katie:
> 
> First of all, let me please explain that I mean not to cause 
> offense. What follows is (naturally) very much my own 
> opinion, and is not meant as a criticism of your opinion in any way, 
> but rather as a defense of what you characterize as a "very 
> narrow view".

Don't worry, I didn't for a moment believe anyone was trying to 
cause offence. And, frankly, I also don't have any objection to 
anyone criticising my opinion on this if they want to, just for the 
record.

> Katie: 
> I don't think I have a very narrow view of what clinical depression 
> is (Yes, you weren't really talking about me, but I can only speak 
> from my own viewpoint, of course :) ) But I don't like seeing *any* 
> depressive emotions characterized as clinical depression. The fact 
> is that there have to be some guidelines established or those words 
> become meaningless. 

That's certainly true - and it does become a major problem when any 
'depressive emotion' to use your term becomes classified as 
clinical depression.

There do need to be guidelines. But they must be *guidelines* not a 
straitjacket. Issues of mental health are often not black and 
white, and definitions need to allow for the shades of grey that 
often exist.
  
> [snip]
> > It was, in no way, cyclical. They looked for cycles. There were 
> > none that they could find.
> 
> Tiny point: I think (though I may be wrong, and please speak up, 
> syroun, if I am) that you may have misunderstood syroun's use of the 
> word "cyclical". (syroun's original quote: "Those who become 
> clinically depressed do so, in a cyclical fashion regardless of 
> their environment, and have difficulty finding their way out.") I 
> think syroun meant it not in the sense of "in cycles" but that it is 
> recurrent if not treated. 

Perhaps - but that's not always the case either. I have known 
numerous sufferers of clinical depression who had only one bout of 
it. It can be acute as well as chronic. 

> Katie:
>        Yes, Harry's feelings at times match the feelings of a 
> clinically depressed person, but that's, I think, because those 
> feelings are universal. Any realistic depiction in fiction of a 
> normal, human character, particularly one that stretches through 
> five event-filled books, is bound to show that character feeling 
> depressed at some point. What distinguishes clinically depressed 
> people from others is that they have those feelings most of the 
> time, and without reasonable cause. I don't see that this fits 
> Harry. He has mood swings like any teenager, and he is upset over 
> the very real traumas he has experienced. I think he may
> well suffer from grief-related depression, but I wouldn't 
> characterize it as 
> chronic or severe.

Well, my view - and it's not just my view, is that the 
distinguishing feature (if there is such a thing) of clinical 
depression isn't that the person is depressed most of the time - 
but rather that they are depressed as a default state of being. For 
many people, this will be the same thing - but not always. I'll 
have to use myself as an example of what I mean, again...

I developed clinical depression at age 12, and it persisted until I 
was about 12.

Now from the age of 14-22, I was probably depressed most of the 
time - it's hard to classify it like that in retrospect.

But at the age of 13, I was only depressed a minority of the time. 
Does that mean I wasn't clinically depressed for that year?

No, it doesn't. Why? Because for that one year (or at least 9 
months of it) I was lucky enough to be in a simply wonderful, 
absolutely incredible, ultimately suitable (OK, I'm probably 
exagerating a bit - but it did save my life) school, where 
everything almost could have been designed to make me happy.

My default state was still depressed. In any situation, when there 
wasn't something actively around to make me happy, I very rapidly 
fell into the doldrums.

The only reason I wasn't constantly depressed was environmental. 
The clinical depression was very much, still present, but I wasn't 
depressed most of the time.

Now, this has implications when thinking about Harry - because he 
has Hogwarts, and I think for him, Hogwarts may well play the same 
role as my school that year did for me. I think it's much harder to 
'diagnose' clinical depression when a person is in a wonderful 
environment for them. For some people, it's probably a moot point - 
but for some it makes a real difference.

> Katie:
> (A note: You may wonder where I get off saying all this. I'm 
> certainly no expert, but, like quite a few others on this list, I 
> have been clinically depressed and in treatment for several years.)

Hey, that's pretty much where I'm coming from as well - although 
I've been lucky enough that I no longer need treatment. I still 
need to be alert to the return of depression, but for now it's 
gone.
 
> Katie:
> To go back to HP, I experienced a small shock of recognition when 
> reading about Sirius in OOTP, as you did when reading about Harry. 
> The perfectly subjective and slightly hypocritical distinction I 
> draw is that Sirius seems to be in a low mood most of the time and 
> behaves quite differently than Harry. (For what it's worth, I don't 
> think Sirius is bipolar, because his "good moods" never really seem 
> out-of-control or dangerous as they can with mania, and his reckless 
> behavior occurs when he is unhappy or desperate. But, as I've just 
> said, I'm biased about that.) 

I actually think Sirius as seen in OotP is depressed as well - but 
it's a different form of depression, one quite different from what 
I experienced, so I haven't really ventured an opinion on it.
 
> Katie:
> The interior passages JKR writes for Harry show him to be 
> sad and lonely some of the time, but these moods pass and don't seem 
> to dominate his behavior as they do Sirius's. In other words, JKR 
> writes Harry from inside-out, while she writes Sirius from outside-
> in. If she were writing Harry as a "limited" character, I think far 
> fewer of us would consider him seriously depressed, considering his 
> behavior. But of course that doesn't take into account that he could 
> be the sort of person who hides depression very well...

I've never really argued that Harry is seriously depressed. I just 
think he could be. It's very hard for me to judge one way or the 
other - as I say, all I can really venture is that I recognise 
similarities between what he seems to me to be experiencing, and 
what I experienced, and I happen to know I was clinically 
depressed. (-8



Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]