Percy and Arthur (Was Is Percy a Spy?)

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 111157

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" <jmmears at c...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <b_boymn at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Now on to Percy, I don't think Percy is or was a spy..., and I 
> > sympathize with him .... As far as I'm concerned Arthur hold equal
> > if not greater blame for the incident than Percy, although Percy 
> > is certainly carries a significant share. 
 
> Jo Serenadust: 
> 
> I'm having a hard time with the notion of Arthur sharing "equal if 
> not greater blame" for the rift with Percy.  I have read your 'Good 
> Son' posts and while I agree with much of your analysis of Percy's 
> psyche,  I strongly disagree with the notion that Arthur's attempt 
> to open his eyes to what's really going on in the WW makes Arthur 
> responsible for *any* of the ill-will resulting from the 
> confrontation.
> 

b_boymn:

Well, I'm sure you saw it but I will point out once again that "Percy
certainly carries a significant share" of the blame.

Arthur's problem is that he was responded with all the tact and
subtlety of Fred. If Arthur truly saw the danger of the situation the
diplomatic, tactful, and best strategic method of dealing with it
would have been to congradulate Percy's new job and celebrate with
him. Then gradually work in the possibility of conflict of interest
being so close to Fudge, and he could have gradually let that
tactfully evolve into statements about not understanding how Fudge can
be against Dumbledore and Harry when there is so much evidence to
support their position. 

Certainly Percy's back would have gone up at that, but Arthur could
have pointed out that Percy was right; given his job, he would be
expected to show support for his boss. And then follow that
understanding with bits and pieces of evidence to suport Harry and
Dumbledore. Evidence like how could Harry who lives a very sheltered
life know the things he knows. How could Harry know the Death Eater's
names? Yes, yes, it's in the public records, but like I said, Harry
lives a very sheltered life, how does he come across public records?
How could Harry have any knowledge of the reverse-spell/brother wand
effect? How could Harry know anything about the graveyard? How could
he describe so accurately a place he couldn't possibly know anything
about? How could they explain Harry's wounds? How could Harry discribe
the Riddle mansion? 

Of course, even Arthur or, for that matter, Dumbledore may not be able
to explain these either, but Arthur's objective would have been to
sway Percy. I could go on but the point is, if Arthur has made an
effort, he could have turn the situation to his strategic advantage
instead of allienating Percy. If not allying with Percy, then at least
neutralizing him as a potential threat.


> 
> Steve continued:
>  
> > However, I could conceive of the possibility that after the 
> > Quibbler interview with Harry came out, Percy might have been 
> > swayed from his position. And, considering this possibility, 
> > Dumbledore might have made a 'no hard feelings' peace offering. 

> Jo Serenadust:
> 
> Well, the trouble is that Dumbledore's plate is quite full at this 
> point in the story.  He's the last one standing in the way of 
> Umbridge and Fudge's total takeover of Hogwarts, ...  I don't think 
> that dealing with Percy's lack of loyalty and respect for him is all
> that high a  priority.  ...
> 

b_boymn:

A agree completely, but I was trying to create a more plausable
explanation than some of the far fetched 'Percy is a Spy' theories
that were being stated. Rather than some grand conspiracy or elaborate
plan, I suspect at most Dumbledore, at the appropriate moment, might
have taken an hour or two of his time to make peace with Percy. 

Given his belief in second chances, that makes a whole lot more sense
than some elaborate complex 'Spy Theory'.


> 
> Steve wrote:
> 
> > I don't think this beak between Percy and his family is directly
> > related to Voldemort's return. I think Percy is seriously offended
> > that his own father didn't believe that (...Percy...) could get a 
> > job on his own merit. That is the true heart of this
> > misunderstanding.

> Jo Serenadust:
> 
> But, he didn't get the job on his own merit, which should be 
> patently obvious, even to him.  I think that Percy's ambition and 
> egotism have robbed him of any common sense or decency.  

b_boymn:

Percy is academically, and in the area of deportment, one of the most
outstanding student to come through Hogwarts. From my read, this idea
of getting 12 OWLs appears to be an outstanding achievement of the
highest order. Something achieved by very very few students. I think
it is also fair to say that Percy did equally well in his NEWTs and
afteral was both Prefect and Head Boy. He has outstanding qualifications. 

Yes, I will admit that rising to Fudge's personal assistance was a bit
fast for someone right out of school, and I have absolutely no doubt
that Fudge's motives were corrupt, but it is unfair to say that Percy
doesn't 'merit' this job. And, let's not forget that he's not being
made king of the universe, he's a glorfied secretary for Fudge; he
takes notes, fetches tea, files paper, etc.... True, he does all this
for the Minister himself rather than some mundane middle manager, but
in the end, Percy is still nothing but a 'gopher'. 

Certainly with his outstanding record at school, he is more than
qualified to take notes and fetch Fudge's tea.

As to his unfortunate previous position with Barty Crouch Sr., let us
not lose sight of the fact that Percy was the LEAST senior member of
that apparently large and significant department. There were many
other employees who know Crouch much better and work with him much
longer than Percy did. They certainly had a greater responsibility to
come forward and voice their concerns. 

So while Percy certainly was questioned, and I'm sure Percy certainly
was sweating bullets, in the end, Percy did nothing wrong. He recieved
his orders and passed them on, and that's pretty much what he was paid
to do.


> Jo Serenadust:
>
> Percy was extremely cruel on  both occasions and while I'm sure 
> Arthur and Molly will be willing to forgive him, I don't think that 
> I ever will.
> 

b_boymn:

Once again, I can only refer back to someone else's theory that Percy
completely cut himself off from his family to prove that he could
excel on his own merit. That regardless of what Fudge's motivation
might be, Percy was bound and determined to prove the he was up to the
job.

Once he made that commitment, that had to include Christmas presents.
If you took the present, it could be seen as Dumbledore's supporters
trying to get into his good graces to get informaion about Fudge. 

I will admit that it was a very painful incident for Molly, and I have
to believe that to some degree, Percy knew it would cause distress,
but he had chosen his course, and felt he must stay on it. I will say
this about the Weasleys, down to the last one, they are SO damned
stubborn and mule-headed; not to mention hot-headed. 


> Jo Serenadust:

> I've always cut Percy a lot of slack in spite of his pomposity and 
> generally unpleasant behavior, because I thought that he was 
> fundamentally decent and that he loved his family.  Although I still 
> don't believe he's an evil person or will become a DE, his OOP 
> behavior has put him beyond the pale for me. When push comes to 
> shove, protecting his fragile ego is more important to him than his 
> family.
> 
> My sympathies are entirely with his parents who in no way deserve 
> this shabby treatment.
> 
> 
> Jo Serenadust, former Percy sympathizer


bboy_mn:

Without a doubt, Percy made a grave mistake, and I'm sure now, after
the fact, he is deeply repentant, but that said, I do not relent on my
belief that Arthur played his hand very poorly. 

One last note on Percy, I take strong objection to Percy being
portrayed as power hungry or ambitious in a negative way. Percy wants
achievement and success, more accurately, he wants to achieve and to
succeed, but he does not desire power for the sake of power. Nor will
he go to any ends to achieve his goals. Percy is the boy who does it
right, even when he is wrong (ironically), and will take no pride in
achievement or success that is ill-gotten. 

Someone once said that anyone who has ever been a parent or a child
knows that love and hate can exist simultaniously, and that the
presents of hate or anger, does not mean the absents of love.

Like all of you, I am angry at Percy for being such a blind pompous
ass, but I still love him, and believe the best in the long run.

That's my story and I'm stuck with it.

Steve/b_boymn (was bboy_mn, was asian_lovr2, was never Lexicon Steve)