Harry... Tsk Tsk (Re: Snape's DE past)

[Brenda M.]

No: HPFGUIDX 111568

> Alla: 
> Alla waves to Brenda and decides to have a little disagree
> ment with her. :o) <<<

Brenda waves back to Alla and decides to go head-to-head with Alla, 
only friendly :o)


> Brenda earlier:
> BUT he was informed by Snape that there IS a possibility that 
> Voldemort will use the connection to "try and make [Harry] do 
> things". Is it only me, or does that imply the scnerio where Harry 
> does things because Voldemort tried and made him?
> 
> Alla:
> I was certainly among those posters. I absolutely do NOT read "try 
> and make do things" as "sending false visions". I read it as more 
> like trying to put you under Imperium curse. You know, forcing you 
> do stuff, but your reading is certainly just as valid as mine. I 
> don't think Harry was informed nearly enough the level he should be 
> informed, I don't think Dumbledore gave him the right teacher to 
> practice Occlumency with, la la la (you know the gist :o))

Bren butting in, yet again:

True, it sounds rather like Imperius curse than sending false 
visions. BUT, Imperio is much broader and inclusive concept compared 
to false visions, meaning sending false visions is certainly one of 
the means to manipulate someone. Of course I wish that Snape had told 
Harry of what Voldemort can actually do with this mental connection, 
to scare Harry into practicing, per se. My first-round of OoP I 
certainly didn't read "try and make do things" as "sending false 
visions", but now I can understand it as one of the clue seeds from 
JKR. I very much agree with you that Harry should have been informed 
more, after all, he is the *weapon* with the serial number "Boy-Who-
Lived".

On the second thought, we don't know if Snape was even aware of this 
possibility of sending false visions. His use of Occlumency in spying 
Voldemort doesn't involve making up memories, just "to shut down 
those feelings and memories that contradict the life, and so can 
utter falsehoods in his presence without detection". [OoP, 469. UK]

Hmm, I wonder if Voldemort *did* attempt Imperio Harry throughout 
OoP, when Harry was feeling strongly outrageous...


> I think teacher, whom Harry would trust made a HUGE difference in 
> such important matter

Agreed ;) For second, I was afraid you will compare Occlumency 
lessons to Patronous lessons, 'cause those two are incomparable, IMO. 
Crouch!Moody's Imprerio lessons are better suited, but Harry at least 
respected him. 
 

> You know, I just recently got over being upset with Dumbledore and 
> here you go. :)
> Your post reminded me how much of an idiot I consider Dumbledore to 
> be since he ever thought in the first place that that could work 
> EVER.

Now, now, easy on the oldie, we don't want to upset him, it's not 
good for his health ya know *wink*

I for one feel sympathy towards DD for having to arrange this. I 
mean, if Snape couldn't teach Harry, then who could? You mentioned in 
later post Dumbledore should have taught Harry himself, but uhh... So 
you want DD to be attacked and (possibly) murdered by Harry?!?! He 
felt intense impulse to attack DD the second he made eyecontact with 
DD! Any longer than that, we don't know what would have happened.

Besides, Umbridge would have gone any length to prevent Harry's 
private lesson from DD once she found out about it.

Speaking of the devil, I suppose she was part of reasons Snape was 
chosen to teach Harry, not other Occlumens. Snape had good references 
from Malfoy and co, Umbridge trusted him to be on her side. And the 
hatred between Harry and Snape was well publicized, no one would have 
suspected Snape to be actually *helping* Harry.

I wondered why Lupin wasn't asked, because it appears that he is a 
Legilimens himself. But if Umbridge was the one who implemented the 
act against werewolves, then Lupin can only do so much...


> Me earlier, quoting Hermione from OoP, 489. UK: 
> 'A fever or something. It has to get worse before it gets better.' 
>
> Alla:
> Are you refering to the fact that Harry felt weakened after the 
> lessons? I don't know. I don't consider direct attack of Harry's 
> mind to be the best teaching method. You know, Snape, what about 
> starting VERY slowly with the beginner student, not from knocking 
> him out almost? But, we don't know how the Occlumency supposed to 
be taught, that I happily concede.

Me again, unable to keep my nosy butt out of it:

Yes, that's precisely what I'm refering to. It's a nice parallel, the 
immune mechanism between physical and mental system. Lol, can you 
imagine, Snape being considerate in teaching Harry, it'll take all 
the fun out of it!! ;)

What I really wanted Harry to do, after seeing in Snape's Pensieve, 
was to apologize to Snape. Not just because he invaded Snape's 
privacy, but because Harry realized Snape had been right about James, 
and actually felt bad.

"... it was that he knew how it felt to be humiliated in the middle 
of a circle of onlookers, knew exactly how Snape had felt as his 
father had taunted him, and that judging from what he had just seen, 
his fathe had been every bit as arrogant as Snape had always told 
him." [OoP, 573. UK]

I had such high hopes that Harry might have the nerves to apologize 
to Snape, but alas being Harry he didn't.

At least they have better understanding of each other, I was 
surprised to see Snape didn't taunt him with memories from Harry's 
childhood. That can only prove to be useful in the future, no? <g>


> Alla:
> Regardless, I would be cautious of taking Hermione's words for 
> granted, always. You know, we have SPEW as an example that she does 
> not always do things the right way. I think she was right waaay too 
> many times in OOP and JKR is setting her for a fall in the next one.

While SPEW mania comes from being Muggle-born and not comprehending 
the Wizarding World as whole, she certainly rocks in Department of 
Logic. If her logic makes sense to me, I'm happy to go along with it. 
It is true that she is almost always right throughout the series, but 
then Harry doesn't listen to her very much, now does he. *grinning at 
the thought of Alla getting impatient here*

  
> Brenda:
> I believe learning the prophecy should have come AFTER Harry had 
mastered Occlumency, for the following reason:
> 
> Alla:
> I strongly disagree with this one, of course, but I see your point. 

Bren: I made my peace with whatever happened, in the particular order 
and everything. I believe it was for the best, overall.


> Alla:
> Can you explain to me how Harry was supposed to see that his dream 
> about Sirius is different from his other dreams, specifically from 
> the dream about Arthur, which helped to save the man? Specifically, 
> how Harry was supposed to figure out that the dream was false?

Bren: 

That's why I said "he should have been more careful *judging* the 
dream logically and act accordingly, instead of rashing out and 
impulsively flying to MoM". It was obviously hard for him to tell 
whether it was real or fake, his godfather was involved! I will have 
to quote Hermione yet again...

'It's five o'clock in the afternoon ... the Ministry of Magic must be 
full of workers ... how would Voldemort and Sirius have got in 
without being seen? Harry ... they're probably the two most wanted 
wizards in the world ... you think they could get into a building 
full of Aurors undetected?' [OoP, 645. UK]

Remember, he only went to use Umbridge's fireplace because Hermione 
begged him to. What would have happened if he just marched straight 
to MoM? Without alerting the Order? I bet you wouldn't want to think 
about that ;)

But Pippin's right, it doesn't matter whether it was real or false. 
Sirius is in much better place than 12 Grimmauld Place, as long as 
he's happy I'm good.


Brenda