Neville's choice & the Hat's Consideration

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 119346


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Vivamus" <Vivamus at T...> wrote:
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > Ask yourself this, with his definite overriding lack of 
> > selfconfidence, what are the odds that Neville choose 'not 
> > Gryffindor'? 
> > 
> > ... the Sorting Hat considers a students choice,  isn't it 
> > reasonable that the Hat would disregard a student's choice when 
> > it knows that choice goes against the student's  true nature?

 
> Vivamus:
> I would agree that it is reasonable, but so is the SH going entirely
> on the student's choice.  JKR has not given us enough information to
> lean too far in either direction, I think, except that she *has* 
> shown us that Harry's choice was respected by the hat, AND that 
> Harry also fit the qualifications for the hat.  To support your 
> contention that the hat really is in control, it was only after the 
> hat essentially said to Harry, "you could be in all four houses, so 
> where should I put you?" that Harry started thinking, "not
> Slytherin".
> 
> I would disagree that Neville would ever say that he is not good
> enough for Gryffindor. I think that is a matter of family pride, and
> I suspect his grandmother in particular would be disappointed if he 
> weren't put there. I further suspect he would know this.  
> 
> Vivamus

bboyminn:

Our positions on this issue are close, but I still have a few
nit-picking points.

I would agree that the Hat /considers/ a student's choice, but that
consideration has more to do with the student's underlying reasons
than the choice itself. 

I would not agree that "it is reasonable... the SH going entirely on
the student's choice". As has been pointed out, the Sorting Hat has a
specific purpose, it is programmed for one task, and that task has
specific parameters. The founders had specific characteristics that
they liked to see in their hand-picked students, and the Hat carries
on the search for those specific characteristics. /Those parameters/
carrry the greatest weight, far more weight than student choice or
parental expectations. 

So, student choice would certainly be considered because it tells the
Hat something about the student, but I can't agree to the Hat yeilding
entirely to student choice.

Using Neville as an example, I agree that it may have been expected by
his Grandmother and other family that he be selected for Gryffindor,
but by Neville's own words, he doesn't think he is worthy of being a
Gryffindor. That leads to a reasonable speculation, given Neville's
long sorting, that Neville and the Hat had some disagreement over his
worthiness to be in Gryffindor. 

So back to my main point, the Hat considers student choice, but only
with relavants to what is motivating that choice and what it tells the
Hat about the student. The choice is /somewhat/ irrelevant, but the
reason and motivation are far more significant. To yield to student
choice is far too superficial for a device that has programmed into it
specific parameters and a specific purpose.

In Hermione's example, we can speculate that the Hat said 'Ravenclaw'
but given her previously stated preference, Hermione said 'no, no, I
want Gryffindor', after which the Hat replied 'Well then, better be
Gryffindor'. Superficially, that would appear as if the Hat yielded to
 Hermione, but I simply can't believe the Hat would do that unless it
saw very strong and specific Gryffindor characteristics in her. So, it
was those characteristics that put her in Gryffindor, not her choice.

However, (being somewhat repetative), her choice did tell the Hat more
than her preference. To be a frightened student in a new school, in a
new unfamiliar environment, to be confronted by a complex, intellignet
, and strange magical object for the first time, and still have the
courage to contradict and argue with that object (the Hat), shows a
degree of courage and determination that are indeed Gryffindor
characteristics. So, Hermione's choice meant something to the Hat, but
it yielded to her characteristics, not her superficial choice.

Again (and again and again, [sorry]) in Harry's example, as you
pointed out, Harry never said 'I want Gryffindor', he said or thought,
'not Slytherin', that left three other possible House, all of which he
would have done well in. 

Although, I will add that, to some extent, I do see part of your
point. If a particular student was dead even 50/50 split between the
personality characteristics of two houses, and the student said 'I
want Ravenclaw', assuming Ravenclaw was one of the Houses being
considered, the Hat would likely weigh it's decision in favor of
Ravenclaw. But I add, that, in that case, it would be what that choice
told the Hat about the student that swayed it, and not the student's
choice itself.

Sorry for being so repetative, I know I said the same thing half a
dozen times in 6 different ways, but I really feel that first and
foremost, the Hat will be guided by it's intended purpose and
predefined House paramenters. Only after giving the greatest weight to
those parameters would Student choice be factored in.

I further agree that this is all pure speculation, and we can't state
with absolute certainty until JKR gives us an explanations. That said,
the Hat does have a documented purpose and uses documented guidelines,
and I feel it reasonable to concluded the 'purpose' and 'guidelines'
take precidences.

Just a thought.

Steve/bboyminn (was bboy_mn)