Voldemort's "death"

[ginnysthe1]

No: HPFGUIDX 119476


> iamamommy wrote:
> <snip> I think somehow Lord Voldemort will have his soul eaten my a
> dementor.  I think that somehow Harry will trick LV into possesing
> him, and a dementor will Kiss Harry, but somehow Harry will retain 
his soul and survive to tell the tale. <snip>

>Magda responded:
> > I'm not sure about the possessing-Harry bit but otherwise I agree
> > that getting Dementor-ed is a likely Voldemort ending.  It would 
be poetic justice if his allies turned on him, also that there is a
> > force stronger than Voldemort <snip>  Also in POA Lupin says 
being Dementor-ed is a fate worse than death, and there's that 
dialogue about that very subject between Dumbledore and Voldemort at 
the MoM in OOTP.  Foreshadowing? > At any rate, it would give the 
series an out from Harry's supposed fate as either victim or killer.  
If he can get Voldemort soul-sucked, he won't have to actually kill 
him. <snip>

Kim responds now:
I too think the idea of a Dementor's soul-eating kiss sealing 
Voldemort's fate is a possibility.  It's not the fate I'd prefer, of 
course, but I still have an open mind as to other possible endings to 
the series.  I think Magda may be right about those "fate worse than 
death" passages being foreshadowings of LV's fate.
But I suggested in a previous post in this thread and will offer the 
question again: do you think it's possible that LV doesn't even have 
a soul anymore, as Carol suggests below about Barty Jr.?  If LV has 
already forsaken his own soul, a Dementor's kiss wouldn't have much 
effect, would it?  Besides, the Dementors are on LV's side now 
(supposedly), so what would cause them to turn on him?  Frankly I've 
never understood who or what the Dementors actually are, other than 
that I think JKR said that they are the embodiment of depression (or 
despair?).

> Carol added:
> I also would like to see Harry have an "out" so that he destroys
> Voldemort without having to "murder" him (his own word) and the
> Dementors might provide a way to do that (without, I hope, having
> Harry kissed by a Dementor in the process). The main problem I see
> with this theory is that Harry is "the one with the power" and his
> defeat of Voldemort is supposed to involve his unique ability to
> master the mysterious power behind the door (sacrificial love?).

Kim asks Carol:
Is that last part from Harry's conversation with DD in OotP where DD 
mentions the locked room in the Dept. of Mysteries?  My sense is that 
the power behind the locked door is even greater than sacrificial 
love, at least if I remember correctly the description DD used.  But 
I too think that mysterious power will play a key role in the 
ultimate "defeat" of Voldemort.

Carol continued:
>I don't want to see him sacrifice himself to a Dementor to achieve 
this goal even if he does live to tell the tale. But it strikes me 
that my objection is more a matter of personal revulsion than logic.<

Kim now:
I agree with Carol.  A Dementor's kiss for Harry, no way.  There can 
be a kind of natural logic in revulsion and other "physico-emotional" 
reactions, IMO.  I think our bodies are far smarter than we tend to 
give them credit for.  

Carol continued: 
> I do think we are intended to see the Dementor's soul-sucking as a
> fate worse than death. Barty Jr's body may still be walking around 
in St. Mungo's, he may even still be eating and drinking, but he no
> longer has a self or a soul and when his soulless body dies, that 
will be the absolute end of him--no passing beyond the Veil, no 
reunion with the mother who loved him and died for him, no chance for
> redemption for the truly horrible things he did in life through his
> own tragic wrong choices. His soul, separated from his body, is lost
> in darkness and nothingness forever.<

Kim asks:
Did the Dementors perform the "kiss" on Barty Jr.?  If so, I can't 
recall it.  Not that I remember everything I read.  Or I might be 
inferring something incorrectly from what you wrote.

Carol:
> <snip> ... there's also the question of what death is, what would 
happen to Voldemort if he were to die (and if he can die in the 
normal way). What is death in JKR's potterverse? Would Voldemort, 
perhaps the most evil wizard of all time and certainly one of the 
worst, have a chance for redemption? Or would he pay for his sins in 
the WW equivalent of hell? We have no indication that the WW has any 
such concept, unless you count vestiges of Christianity such as 
Christmas carols and Harry's baptism and the occasional use of "damn" 
and "hell" <snip>  My question is, which would be worse for Voldemort 
(and consequently more deserved), a soul forever lost in the abyss of 
darkness inside a Dementor or eternal hellfire (or whatever 
equivalent punishment awaits evil wizards after death)? If death (for 
wizards) is not something to be feared, if it's just the "next great 
journey" <snip> then surely death is too good for Voldemort?
> 
> And if, as Hagrid suggests, Voldemort no longer has enough human 
left in him to die (even with Harry's blood inside him), what then? 
Maybe some different fate awaits him. Maybe earthly immortality, once 
ended, destroys the chance for an eternal life beyond the Veil. If 
so, maybe Voldemort doesn't need a Dementor to fall into the 
nothingness that awaits him.
> 
> Carol, wondering if earthly immortality precludes eternal afterlife
> for wizards

Kim:
Where does a person go when he dies in the Potterverse?  I too doubt 
it would be either a Christian heaven or hell, but that's just a 
hunch.  Is there anything more specific about that in canon?  Perhaps 
it's something like reincarnation as suggested by "the next great 
adventure" (note "next," not "last").  But as to LV's chance for 
redemption, I'm not sure why most people on this list seem to be so 
dead-set against it.  Sure, he deserves his come-uppance, but why is 
he so totally unredeemable?  Of course, he's evil, maybe even 
the "most evil," but why unredeemable?  I wouldn't wish eternal 
nothingness on anyone, not even LV (and I don't think Harry would 
either -- also just a hunch).  And Harry of all people would seem to 
have the most justification to wish such a thing for Voldemort.  I'm 
afraid evil figures like LV may just end up being scapegoats 
sometimes, to be punished eternally for the collective guilt of man- 
or wizard-kind.  I mean, where would LV (and Hitler, Stalin, to name 
a few from the real world) be without his collaborators, not to 
mention all those who turn a blind eye to the evil in their midst?  
What fate do they deserve?

Now here's a really crazy question...  What if LV were to fall into 
that time-reversing bell jar in the Dept. of Mysteries and become a 
baby again (not just a baby-head like that DE did)?  Would he still 
be worthy of eternal damnation then?

Kim