The Philospher's Stone (was: Harry's Protection (was Re: Questions))

[eloise_herisson]

No: HPFGUIDX 119514


Kneasy:
> The emphasis has been changed too; originally the concept of the 
> formulation was solely concentrated on the transmutation of metals, 
> the immortality bit was a later addition  to alchemical thinking. 
In the
> Potterverse JKR seems to put the cart before the horse -  it's the 
> prospect of eternal life that is pre-eminent, recycling baked beans 
> cans to pay off the mortgage comes in a very distant second.

Eloise:
I'm glad you mentioned this. Right after I posted my last message, it 
struck me that there might be another reason for restricting access 
to the Philosopher's Stone completely unrelated to immortality: since 
it was also believed to turn base metal into gold, unrestricted 
access could spell disaster for the wizarding economy. Rather 
frivolous in the context of immortality and all, but nevertheless....
<images of harassed Goblins trying to explain to MoM officials just 
why they had to keep the secret under wraps>

It also crosses my mind to wonder now whether the Philosopher's Stone 
has any connection with Harry's parents' wealth, another secret which 
we've been promised we'll find out about later.


Kneasy:
> What is evident is that in HP the Stone is supposed to endow 
> immortality to the *physical* body. This is a key distinction IMO,  
> squatting as I am behind the ramparts of Possession Theory. Voldy's
> spirit/essence/mind did not die at GH, though his body was destroyed
> (or so we assume), but without a corporate aspect he becomes almost
> powerless, though the 'almost' is important - he's still able to 
possess
> other beings.  If he can only slot this essence into a body that 
has a 
> user guarantee stretching to eternity - well, he's set for life - 
and it'll
> be a *very* long one, approximately until the heat death of the 
universe.

Eloise:
Well, yes, quite. But this was the case before he was ripped from his 
body too. It's the question I was asking really. Unless we assume 
that the essence of a person dies at a given point even if the body 
is immortal, surely all that is needed to achieve bodily immortality 
is an immortal body, which he could have achieved via the 
Philosopher's Stone without recourse to whatever else he did. I think 
a belief in the immortality of the soul is hinted at, both in 
Dumbledore's own stated philosophy on death and in the concept of the 
Dementor's Kiss being worse than death itself. If soul sucking result 
merely in oblivion, then I don't see that it can really be worse than 
death except for the people who have to deal with the empty shell 
left behind. It implies a loss of that essence which makes one human 
and can pass on to another existence.


Kneasy:
<snip>

> Of course many  fans have wondered about the back-story to 
> the Flamels, their association with DD and why the hell Voldy 
> didn't drop round their place one night before GH and beat, 
> threaten or Legilimise the Stone or the formulation out of them.
> That would fit his usual practices, you'd think. It's not  as if 
the 
> Flamels or old Nick's success were a secret, is it? But no; Voldy 
> isn't a villain that thinks, no Cassius he. He waits until 
everything
> goes pear-shaped, his dastardly plans dashed, spends 10 years
> having a meeting of minds with the local rodentia in some primitive
> back-water before coming out for round two. Seems very 
> providential that he reappears when he does. Or is it providential?

Eloise:
Well, it could be a bit of the old Evil Overlord syndrome.

Kneasy:
> Right. This is where Kneasy constructs his own back-story, based
> on his reading of characterisation and story arc.
> 
> It wasn't providential at all - DD deliberately lured him out using
> the Stone as bait. Much better to tackle Voldy before Voldy is ready
> than wait until he is back in full fig and possibly already 
immortal.

Eloise:
I can live with that and the rest of your theory, but my problem is 
why Dumbledore had that opportunity. *Why* hadn't Voldemort already 
seized bodily immortality via the Stone.


Kneasy:
<snip>.
> 
> The implications of Voldy's rant in the graveyard, where he goes 
> on about how he almost became immortal, suggest that there are 
> routes to this end other than the Stone. 

Eloise:
Yes, this is what I deduced too. If there's one magical route, then 
there's no reason why there shouldn't be another. 

Perhaps Jen put her finger on it:

> In alchemy, the process is equally important (or more 
> important?) than the end result. As the base metals are purified 
> into gold, so the apprentice is purified and transformed.  It's a 
> life's work and requires a devoted servant to perfect the process 
> and move through each level on the way to immortality. 
> 
> Presumably Flamel's work would be considered a spiritual 
> transformation and Voldemort's work was the antithesis of this.

Eloise:
Perhaps Voldemort would be *incapable* of creating the Philosopher's 
Stone. Still begs the question of why he didn't try to steal it 
earlier. Or perhaps he did and we just don't know about it.

Kneasy:
>Or perhaps it's just  that he
> thought there were [other routes to immortality]. Certainly nothing 
has been said about the Stone
> being central to his plans before the first book; he travels the 
world,
> learns strange things, yet apparently never finds out that there's 
this
> bloke who's already cracked it.
> Very odd. He needs a decent search engine - the one he's got is 
> too similar to Yahoo!Mort for comfort. 

Eloise:
The problem I outlined exactly. The other explanation is that the 
kind of immortality granted by the Stone isn't enough: if it grants 
only bodily immortality, would that prevent (for example) your being 
soul-sucked by a Dementor? 

Kneasy: 
> Unless - and here's a thought - the Flamels don't exist - they're 
> DD's invention - and so is the Stone - devised to catch Voldy's 
> attention. It'd certainly explain why there isn't a queue 5 miles 
long
> pointing to the Flamel's front door. Just a throw-away comment on 
> a Chocolate Frog card, rig an entry in a book in the Hogwarts 
library,
> start a  rumour or two and Voldy's hooked.
> Or is that a conspiracy theory too far?

Eloise:
Well, it *is* very strange that Hermione had never heard of Flamel 
(particularly as he was a real person) although I guess she wouldn't 
expect him still to be alive. But surely other people would have 
noticed the reference on the Chocolate Frog card (interesting he 
didn't have his own, though).


Kneasy:
> Try another - DD  is Nicholas Flamel, reborn/revitalised every 
> couple of centuries - just like Fawkes. In which  case, if we accept
> JKR's premises on the need for a top-up  of elixir every so  often, 
> and if the Stone has really been destroyed, then DD is  on his last 
> legs. No wonder he's described as tired and old.

Eloise:
I don't actually believe this, but I don't think it's totally far 
fetched, either. A little piece of possible corroboration is that 
Flamel has a wife and JKR was very evasive on the subject of 
Hogwarts' professors' wives, saying we would find out why later. 
Making sure that Voldemort is defeated once and for all could also 
come under the heading of putting his affairs in order as Flamel was 
supposed to have just enough elixir to do.

I'm not sure that (as Jen suggested) his having embraced immortality 
for some while makes his speeches on the subject of death 
hypocritical as  according to this theory by the end of PS/SS (if not 
before) he has decided either that immortality isn't all it's cracked 
up to be, or else that the job with which he was entrusted was coming 
to an end (I hate to draw the analogy again, but like the knight 
guarding the Grail). One thing Dumbledore doesn't claim to be is 
infallible; in saying, 

"You know, the Stone was really not such a wonderful thing. As much 
money and life as you could want! The two things most human beings 
would choose above all - the trouble is, humans do have knack of 
choosing precisely those things which are worse for them,"

he could easily be expressing regret at what he himself has done.

I'd better stop before I start to believe it.


~Eloise
who especially likes Geoff's suggestion that Voldemort might be 
finally overcome by the ennui of the endless routine of finding 
things for sycophantic Death Eaters to do.