Is Snape really that good at Occlumency?

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 120102


Lupinlore wrote: 

At several points in OOTP, we were told that Snape is a master  
Occlumens.  Yet, according to Snape Occlumency requires one 
to "clear your mind of all emotion."  Now, this is something that 
Snape seems  singularly unable to do, particularly when dealing with 
Harry.  Yet, we are led to believe that, although he cannot clear 
his mind of emotion when dealing with a 15 year old student, he CAN 
do so when his life is on the line before the most evil and 
knowledgable wizard in the world.
Interesting.

Alla:


Great post, Lupinlore. Yes, I also thought about it. Especially 
after Snape's "emotions speech". As I said yesterday - hypocritical 
much, Snape?

We have Lupin's " but he is a superb Occlumenc" So, should we trust 
Lupin or not? I tend to believe we should, but of course, I am not 
positive.



Lupinlore:

What are the possibilities here?
 
1)  Snape really isn't nearly as good an Occlumens as he and 
everyone else thinks.  Which, of course, does not bode well.
 
2)  Snape was lying.  Occlumency really doesn't require you to clear 
 your mind.  But why would he lie?


Alla:


OK as to first two, I would answer no, he is good Occlumenc and no, 
he was not lying (unless he is ESE, of course and was deliberately 
sabotaging the lessons :o))



Lupinlore:
 
 3)  Snape was mistaken.  Occlumency does not require clearing your 
 mind, but blocking it with emotion.  After all, it is not a clear 
 mind that saves Harry from Voldie, but his emotions.  Many people 
 have commented on this seeming inconsistency, and speculated that 
 occlumency was a waste of time if, in fact, what Harry needs to do 
to  battle Voldemort is fill himself with emotion, not block it.  
Thus, Snape is a good Occlumens but he really doesn't understand 
*why* he's a good Occlumens.  But wouldn't his own teacher have 
corrected this belief?  Or perhaps Snape is self-taught or 
a "natural" Occlumens.  It's just that he has an unclear 
understanding of his own defenses.  He can block Voldemort not 
because, as he thinks, he is clearing his mind, but because he's a 
perpetually seething cauldron of rage and bitterness.  And, in that 
case, Dumbledore might not realize that Snape can't teach Occlumency 
because Snape doesn't understand it 
correctly himself.
 
4)  Snape really is able to clear his mind in the presence of 
Voldemort but cannot in Harry's presence.  Now this would seem to 
stretch credulity, but I have a feeling this is what JKR is telling 
us.  Which means that Snape is even more childish and petty than he 
at first appears.  Once again, this does not bode well.



Alla:

Actually, I think both 3 and 4 are possible. Let's say Snape is a 
natural Occlumenc, right? Either Dumbledore or Voldemort have 
somehow discovered that ability of his and just used it to their 
advantage. So, Snape did not have any lessons at all and did not 
discover what student of Occlumency ahs to do first, since it comes 
to him naturally.

I would agree with number 4, but change it a little bit. Snape may 
as well be able to clear his mind but he is absolutely uncapable of 
teaching Harry how to do so.


So, in short, Snape MAY be a great occlumenc, but he is grossly 
inadequate as Occlumency teacher to Harry, IMO



LadyOfThePensieve wrote:

snip.

I really love the HP books and do really wonder why people are so
biased when they judge specific circumstances in the books. Your 
view makes me wonder how much stupid Dumbledore can be up to your 
eyes?



Alla:

LOLOL! Can you believe that I am wondering about the same thing 
sometimes? I suspect we are thinking about different circumstances 
in the books though.

I am not Lupinlore but I am going to answer your question anyway. 
How stupid Dumbledore was in my eyes (I am assuming you meant OOP 
and Occlumency specifically) - VERY stupid.

LadyOfThePensieve wrote:

Trying to take revenge on a fictional character is petty at all 
events from my point of view.


Alla:

Poor, poor FICTIONAL characters. I feel so bad for them because us 
bad, evil posters continuously criticise them (eh... taking revenge 
on them) for one thing or another.

I think we can hope those fictional characters will survive though. 
Since we are on the subject, could you please tell me are all 
characters should be exempt from criticising in your opinion, or 
only some of them (like Snape), because I also have some characters 
to nominate to get exemption from criticising.
(That was a joke. Before anyone wants to smack me -  NO, I am not 
suggesting that we should stop criticising  ANY character in the 
books(yeah, even Harry :o)), quite the opposite in fact)

Tammy wrote:
I think Snape is exaggerating the truth a little bit for Harry's
understanding of Occlumency. Harry obviously looks at the world in a
very "black or white" way, and sees little shades of grey. 
Snape says "Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down
those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter
falsehoods in his presence without detection." (pg 531, US 
paperback).
 
To me, that would suggest that you only need to block out CERTAIN
emotions. For Harry, that would - at this point - seem to signify 
that he needs to block all emotions. For Snape, if he is indeed 
spying (for either side I might add), he would only need to shut 
down certain emotions. The feelings he has against Harry, James, 
Remus, Sirius, etc would only be to his benefit in Voldemort's 
presence, thus Snape would have no need to even practice shutting 
those down. If he's spying for Voldemort, he would still have no 
need to shut those down, as Dumbledore knows and accepts Snape's 
anti-Potter feeligns.


Alla:

OK, suppose this is indeed true and only certain emotions need to be 
shut down in order to succesfuly block Legilimenc intrusion.

But does not it mean that Snape was teaching Harry incorrectly from 
the beginning? Because his love for Sirius saved at him in the end, 
right?


You are saying that Snape was exaggerating the truth for Harry, but 
to me it sounds like he was not telling him the truth, if you are 
correct.

I think we should make a suggestion for JKR to write Occlumency 
guide (something similar to Fantastic Beasts and Quidditch through 
ages). It will answer A LOT of our questions. :o)