Snape as bully/teacher/protector/disciplinarian/nemesis/ally...

[lupinlore]

No: HPFGUIDX 120179


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> 
<SNIP> 
> 
> SNAPE AND HIS TEACHING METHODS/WHAT DOES SNAPE KNOW?
> 
> Del raised some points in #120177 about whether I jumped to too 
many 
> conclusions about how much Snape knows.  I'll concede that *if* 
> she's right, much of my argument crumbles.  For those who don't 
> recall, my argument is this:
> 
> 1) Snape is truly on the side of the good guys
> 2) Snape wants Voldy taken down
> **3) Snape understands that Harry is the only one with the chance 
of 
> vanquishing Voldy**
> 4) Snape *should* logically therefore want Harry to be the best-
> prepared "weapon" he can be -– in charms, spells, dueling, potions, 
> transfiguration, occlumency -- in every area possible
> 5) Snape *should* therefore want Harry to NOT just get by or learn 
> enough to not fail, because he *should* understand that the future 
> of the WW might well rest upon how well & how much Harry learns
> 6) In my view, Harry clearly isn't learning *well* from Snape
> 7) Snape *should* therefore swallow his pride/repress the rage/do 
> whatever it takes, including – horrors! – evaluating his methods 
and 
> alter his instruction tactics with Harry
> 
> 
> Now, if Del is right that Snape DOESN'T know about the prophecy and 
> that Harry is WonderBoy, fine, I'd back off a bit from this 
> argument.  
> 
> Of course, I don't think I'm wrong. :-)  Although I could believe 
> the argument that it could be dangerous for Snape to know too much 
> of the prophecy.  It would be dangerous – to Snape and potentially 
> to the Order if Voldy could get the info from him.   
> 
> If, however, Neri is right in his #120154 [please go read!!], about 
> Molly, Arthur, Sirius & Lupin knowing about the prophecy and about 
> Harry's importance, then it's hard to imagine Snape wouldn't also 
> know.  It could be because DD told him, or it could be because 
> Snape's the one who overheard part of the prophecy in the first 
> place.  *However* he came to know, I agree with Neri that it does 
> seem logical that he knows enough to know that Harry's "it," and so 
> for now I will stand by my argument that Snape should have 
> instructed Harry differently, both in Potions class and in 
> Occlumency.  
> 
> Disclaimer 1:  I believe Snape did try harder in Occlumency than he 
> had in the past.  Disclaimer 2:  I believe Snape & Harry's 
> relationship was so bitter & distorted by this point that there was 
> little chance of success in Occl. without a lot of intervention 
from 
> DD.  So some of this is a moot point by book 5.  
> 
> But I just can't get over how someone who ostensibly understands 
how 
> important Harry's role will be won't do whatever he can to make 
sure 
> he's prepared.  Yes, yes, yes – I know Snape may see preparation 
> as "toughening" Harry up.  It also may include keeping him alive, 
> something I think Snape has in mind when he punishes Harry for 
being 
> out of bounds & flaunting school rules.  But it also includes 
making 
> sure the relationship isn't so sour that the kid won't listen and 
> can't respect the teacher.  Harry can be a prat, but he also *can* 
> listen and *can* respect a teacher [McGonagall, Sprout, Flitwick, 
> Lupin, Hagrid – none seem to have big problems with Harry, do 
> they?].  
> 
> I can't but fault Snape for not seeing the bigger picture here.  
> 
> You've gotta be tough to face Voldy, but you've got to know your 
> stuff, too, and Harry's not learning his stuff as well as he could, 
> imo.  His fault?  Some, certainly.  But Snape's too in my way of 
> seeing things.
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan

I agree with you on just about every point, Susan.  However, I would 
go in a *slightly* different direction.

I think you are correct that Snape's methods were hopeless.  However, 
I don't think it would be possible for him to teach Harry any other 
way.  He is simply too damaged.

Where I think Snape *can* most certainly be faulted is in not owning 
up to the fact of his deficiency.  He is an adult and should be wise 
enough to know what his own weaknesses are.  If he can't teach Harry 
effectively, he should own up to that, very vigorously if need be.  
You don't ask alcoholics to tend bar, and that is what Snape teaching 
Harry amounts to.  Perhaps Snape did try to explain this to DD, but 
if so we have no evidence of it.

Which gets us back to Dumbledore, the other member of this happy 
disfunctional family.  I don't think DD is a fool for trusting Snape -
 although I tend to think Snape's motives are almost purely selfish.  
I don't think the man has a noble particle in his makeup.  
Nevertheless, I think Snape truly is on the side of DD and the Order.

Where I think DD is a fool is in misjudging the depths of Snape's 
emotionally crippled nature.  DD tends, I strongly suspect, to put 
positive spins on things.  He probably managed to convince himself 
that *surely* Snape could put things aside now that he saw the ox was 
in the ditch, so to speak.

I think where Snape is at fault, as I said above, is in not owning up 
to the fact, while there was still time to do something else, that he 
*just couldn't do it.*

Lupinlore