Theoretical boundaries

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 120401


Lupinlore wrote: 
"I will agree with you that I am seeing everything through the filter
 of my own experiences.  I can't see things any other way, and I'd be
 foolish to deny it.  Whether it's erroneous or not is for future 
experience to dictate.  And as for being justified -- well, it's 
natural and inevitable.  If you find it offensive, I am sorry that 
your feelings are wounded."

Del replies:
I personally don't find it offensive. Just cumbersome in some cases.
Both my and your feelings and past experiences can become annoying
when we try to discuss some things.

For example, we've almost all had teachers more or less Snape-like.
Whether we liked them, disliked them, feared them, or hated them, this
past experience is *bound* to make us react emotionally to Snape's
teaching methods. But those emotions become a burden when trying to
assess whether Snape's methods are working *on his students*. Saying
"I know from experience that such methods can't work", or "most
children don't react well to that kind of methods" is, well,
irrelevant. Saying "Neville goes to pieces in every single Potions
lesson", on the other hand, is relevant, because it is a given fact.
Extrapolating on why Neville goes to pieces, though, is once again a
risky matter, because we will automatically assume that he crumbles
because of the same reasons *we* would crumble, which isn't
necessarily true (up to the end of OoP, for example, one could have
argued that Neville is terrible in Potions class because he is
morbidly afraid of potions and/or cauldrons, for whatever reason). And
then again, we still have to define what successful teaching is *in
the WW*. If Neville obtains a good result at his Potions OWL, can we
objectively say that Snape's teaching method wasn't appropriate for
Neville for example, since the end result seems to be the only thing
that matters?

Emotions aren't bad. But they sure can muddle some discussions
*unnecessarily*.

Kneasy wrote: 
" And you have no monopoly on experiences. I've watched children die;
held their hands while they did so, too. That makes a vast difference;
to me, fiction is nothing like the real thing and never can be. I
cannot behave or pretend to behave as if it were. Equating *my* past
experiences with a character in a light novel would be to debase and
devalue real people and real tragedy. "

Lupinlore answered:
"I respect you for your experience.  But you seem to think it gives 
your method of approaching the text some superior weight.  It does  not."

Del replies:
I don't think that was the point Kneasy was trying to make. I think he
was trying to explain that in his idea, "personal experience" and
"discussing a fantasy book" have little to do in common, because one
is real and the other is fictional. You Lupinlore react to Harry and
his adventures as to real people, while Kneasy would consider it an
insult to the real people of his life who suffered to grant Harry and
the other fictional characters the statute of living, breathing,
suffering human beings. His past experience *cannot* apply, because in
a way, Harry and the others are not "worthy" of it. They do NOT
suffer, and Kneasy is not going to pretend that they do.

Apologies to Kneasy because I'm bound to have (only slightly I hope)
misrepresented him. However, the approach I presented, even if it is
not Kneasy's, is still valid.

Lupinlore wrote:
" Nor does any other kind of experience that I or anyone else might
have had provide *superior* insight."

Del replies:
Well, sometimes it *does* feel like this on this forum...

Lupinlore wrote:
" However, our experience does have the weight of being *our*
experience, and therefore provides the basis for our honest answers to
the challenges the text brings to us."

Del replies:
Not necessarily. Some people (like you Lupinlore apparently) cannot do
without their past experience. There's nothing wrong with that.
However, you have to be aware that some people CAN do without bringing
in their past experience.

Lupinlore wrote: 
"I am truly sorry you find it offensive, but then all I can do is
suggest that you avoid such conversations.  Perhaps we do have
different modes of public discourse than were common some years ago. 
Once again, if that makes you uncomfortable, I'm sorry, but we aren't
 going to stop, and the best I can say is that if it upsets you that 
terribly you would be well advised to avoid it.  "

Del replies:
Hum, I hate to say that, but usually those things come to us without
us asking for them. When Eloise Herisson tried to discuss Snape as a
plot device, her thread immediately became invaded by emotional
responses to Snape that were totally irrelevant to the matter.
Similarly, it's not really a surprise if way too many threads, no
matter how they started originally, end up discussing either Snape's
nastiness or the Dursleys' abuse of Harry : that's emotional
highjacking, that's what it is :-)

Del