From rredordead at aol.com Sun Feb 1 00:53:09 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 00:53:09 -0000 Subject: James Potter Bio Facts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90028 > Debbie R. wrote: > I've spent about 4 hours searching archives and rereading bits of the books and can't find the confirmation I'm looking for, so I've > decided to post to the list at large..... > Most everyone assumes that James Potter was of Gryffindor House - but I can't find any specific canon reference that explicitly states that as fact. > The HP Lexicon gives us 2 references; the first is the online > interview with Scholastic wherein someone (making an assumption) asks what position James played on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, and JKR simply replies that he was a Chaser. That, IMO, is not at all > conclusive evidence she didn't say he wasn't Gryffindor, but she > didn't say that he was either. > The HP Lexicon also says that James' House was confirmed by Harry in CH 31 of OP. I've just reread the chapter twice and can find no > mention of James anywhere. Am I just missing it? Mandy here: No, you're not missing it. There is absolutely no canon supporting the idea that James Potter was in Gryiffindor. Which is why we all argue over it, oh, about once or twice a month. ;-) Not that I mind, as every so often an interesting new opinion pops up. If you are interested there was a thread a few months back (summer/fall time) when I had a debate with Lexicon/Steve over the assumptions the Lexicon makes about House Membership, not just for James and Co., but other characters too, like the Malfoys and Blacks. I didn't think (and still don't) that the Lexicon should make assumptions without canon, but it's Steve's site (and a fantastic site at that) and he can do what he likes with it. Mandy, who is undecided on what houses they were in, but is convinced that James and Co. were not in Gryffindor together. From rredordead at aol.com Sun Feb 1 01:12:17 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 01:12:17 -0000 Subject: OOP weather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90029 "Dysis" wrote: > I have been re-reading OOP, and have noticed something that annoys > me very much. In the beginning of the book, we learn that there is a severe drought. Okay, so we learn that there has been no water for a while and that the heat is unbearable. > > When Harry is on the Hogwart's Express, he notices some rain clouds > gathering in the distance. Later, when he gets off the train, Harry > notices the Thestrals. Their breath forms mist in the chilly night > air. In the first week of the school year, it rains profusely. Every time Harry looks outside, it's drizzling. Even Ron notices this. So what's the deal? How come there is such a drastic change in weather? > True, the months are different (the drought takes place in June/July while the rain is in September). But September isn't all that cold. Something is not clicking here. JKR mentions the weather a lot in this book. I became annoyed with the constant reference to the rainy weather. She obviously wants to draw our attention to it. I don't have any solid theories about this yet, but could it be LV? Maybe he's demonstrating his new powers. Or maybe it could be some wizards who were tired of the constant heat. They're not very good theories, I know, but I still have to work on them. Any ideas about this? Mandy here: Two words: Great Britain! Sorry to disappoint, but I don't think there are any hidden messages in the constant references to rain by JKR. The weather is a constant source of conversation in the UK. Just like the Eskimos have something like 50 words for snow, so the British have an umpteen number of words for rain. And yes, the weather changes drastically at the drop of a hat. I had the pleasure of growing up near Salisbury Plain, the site of Stonehenge, and if you want unnerving and freaky weather experiences, go and visit the famous stone circle. You can actually see weather change before you eyes; clouds forming in an otherwise clear sky and pour with rain before clearing up and disappearing, all within the space of an hour. Quite spectacular really and easy to see how ancient peoples though the area was magical. Well, it is magical, but that's a whole other converstaion. Our weather stinks but we have the greenest country in the world and great skin because of it, so I can't complain. Mandy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 01:39:10 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 01:39:10 -0000 Subject: What was Mrs. Weasley Thinking? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90030 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > wrote: > > >> I don't think she forgets Ginny - Ginny isn't old enough to be a > prefect yet - her statement could mean 'so far' or she could be > confident for some reason that Ginny will be a prefect. Fred and > George, though, are old enough - and they in the room with her. > Yes, a mother with a large group of kids can occasionally forget > something, sure - but to actually totally forget two of them > exist...<< > Pippin: > > I think JKR is illustrating denial. And since denial is a > subconscious process, it doesn't matter that the Twins were > right in front of her. Molly wants to think that all of her children > are Prefect material, and the inconvenient fact that two of them > were not, though as conspicuous as the proverbial elephant in > the living room, simply escaped her. That's my take on it, > anyway. > > Pippin bboy_mn: Another possibility is that Molly wrote off Fred and George's chances of becoming Prefects a long time ago, so when she says 'that's everyone', what she means is that's everyone who ever had even the remotest of maybe becoming prefect. Just a thought. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Feb 1 07:53:03 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 07:53:03 -0000 Subject: James Potter Bio Facts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > Debbie R. wrote: > > I've spent about 4 hours searching archives and rereading bits of > the books and can't find the confirmation I'm looking for, so I've > > decided to post to the list at large..... > > Most everyone assumes that James Potter was of Gryffindor House - > but I can't find any specific canon reference that explicitly states > that as fact. > > The HP Lexicon gives us 2 references; the first is the online > > interview with Scholastic wherein someone (making an assumption) > asks what position James played on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, and > JKR simply replies that he was a Chaser. That, IMO, is not at all > > conclusive evidence she didn't say he wasn't Gryffindor, but she > > didn't say that he was either. > > The HP Lexicon also says that James' House was confirmed by Harry > in CH 31 of OP. I've just reread the chapter twice and can find no > > mention of James anywhere. Am I just missing it? > > > Mandy here: > No, you're not missing it. There is absolutely no canon supporting > the idea that James Potter was in Gryiffindor. Which is why we all > argue over it, oh, about once or twice a month. ;-) Not that I mind, > as every so often an interesting new opinion pops up. > Geoff: I believe it is how you interpret Harry's point of view.... "The truth was that Ron had just reminded Harry forcibly of another Gryffindor Quiddich player who had once sat rumpling his hair under this very tree." (OOTP "OWLS" p.621 UK edition) ..which takes you back to.... "Harry noticed that his father had a habit of rumpling up his hair as though to keep it fom getting too tidy and he also kept looking over at the girls by the water's edge." (OOTP "Snape's Worst memory" p.568 UK edition) ...and... "'Apologise to Evans,' James roared at Snape, his wand pointed threateningly at him. 'I don't want /you/ to make him apologise,' Lily shouted, rounding on James. 'You're as bad as he is.' 'What?' yelped James, 'I'd NEVER call you a - you-know-what!' 'Messing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like you've just got off your broomstick, showing off with that stupid Snitch, walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can - I'm surprised your broomstick can get off the ground with that fat head on it. You make me SICK.' (OOTP "Snape's Worst Memory" p.571 UK edition) It pretty obvious that Harry is thinking of his father as he talks to Ron. The question is, as has been raised before, does Harry /know/ that James was a Gryffindor player or is he basing assumptions, for example, on some of McGonagall's comments as I suggested a day or so ago? From spang_b at yahoo.co.in Sun Feb 1 08:39:08 2004 From: spang_b at yahoo.co.in (spang_b) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 08:39:08 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90032 > Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; > (chap. 10, page 187 US, page 170 UK, OotP) > "Liquid squid squirted from every boil on the plant; thick, stinking > dark green jets of it. They hit the ceiling, the windows, and > splattered Luna Lovegood's magazine; Ginny, who had flung her arms > up in front of her face just in time, merely looked as though she > was wearing a slimy green hat". > Ok, I know we are talking about opinion here, but how big do you > think a magazine is? I, for one, have not seen one that is so big it > will cover the entire body, but that is me. > If you want to claim it was a WW magizine, and is therefore larger > than others, and take the part written " and splattered Luna > Lovegood's magazine", literately as meaning her magazine, AND ONLY > her magazine, I wonder what your take is on "Ginny, who had flung > her arms up in front of her face just in time, merely looked as > though she was wearing a slimy green hat"? Do you think she only got > stink sap on her head or possibly on other parts of her that was not > covered by her arms? > Me personally, I think Luna got Stink sap on her legs, her hands > (they were holding the paper after all), and possible, seeing that > the stink sap splashed off the ceiling, on top of her head. > > Fred spang: Thanks for quoting the para. But if you notice further down the page, till the point when Ginny removes the stinksap by her spell,it is explicitly mentioned that Ginny, Neville and Harry are the ones who got the stinksap treatment. It is also mentioned how they got it. Neville is "drenched", Harry gets a "faceful" and Ginny's hands are covered with stinksap because she covers her face with them.There is a possibility that Luna might have got it on her head and legs but wouldn't the the author have described it explicitly when she does it so elaborately for the other three? It is also said that the back of Luna's magazine is covered with the sap. So even the magazine is mentioned but Luna is not. So I don't think Luna's got it. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Feb 1 11:28:09 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 11:28:09 -0000 Subject: Hey! Yew! (plus runes) In-Reply-To: <000401c3e79e$30035680$6401a8c0@helenw1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Helen R. Granberry" wrote: > > Yew is a symbol for death (hence it being planted in churchyards). I > believe holly is a symbol for rebirth, but not quite as sure on that > one. Yew is more than a symbol for death, it *is* death. All parts of the plant are poisonous, particularly the berries. It is associated with graveyards for eminently practical reasons - back in the Middle Ages, all males above 16 were required to practice archery. The best wood for bow-making is yew, so lots of yew trees were planted. But grazing animals had to be kept away from them since they ingest the shed berries and leaves (needles) accidentally while feeding (the berries are slightly larger than a match-head and as few as ten can be a fatal dose). In most villages the only area enclosed by cattle proof fences or walls was the graveyard, so that's where the yews were planted. JKR is probably up to something with her runes - what it is we'll have to wait and see, but don't put too much trust in outside references to Druids or their runes. In the UK they left no written record and the Romans deliberately expunged the religion, slaughtering all the priests and adherents they could find. (They objected to the human sacrifices). So they are pretty much a mystery. Lots of runes around, of course, mostly of Scandanavian origin - and they didn't practice Druidism. The Druidic practices found these days are a recent invention dating from about 1850. So it's probable that JKR has once again put her own twist on old mythology. Kneasy From yellobanana08 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 1 07:52:44 2004 From: yellobanana08 at hotmail.com (neisra2003) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 07:52:44 -0000 Subject: Trevor the Toad Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90036 I have been thinking a great deal recently about Neville's toad, Trevor, but can't seem to reach any ideas about his significance in the books. Why do I believe he is significant? -Otherwise, what would be the point of introducing him? He doesn't really DO anything, or add to the plot. JKR only seems to introduce small characters when they will play a greater role later on (for example, Crookshanks). She also makes a point to continually refer to Trevor, just so we don't forget him (like when the kids were making shrinking potions and Snape tested Neville's potion on Trevor). The PS/SS movie also made sure the toad got screen time. Lastly, I think this Uncle Algie character (who gave Trevor to Neville) is kind of fishy. Whether he is good or bad, though, I could not say. I know this doesn't seem an important part of the series, but I just thought I'd bring it up. Any ideas? From angreave at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 10:56:45 2004 From: angreave at yahoo.com (Andrew Greaves) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:56:45 -0000 Subject: The Historical Geography of the Wizarding World Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90037 Okay, this is my first post here, and it turned out to be something of an essay. That will likely be usual for me. I tend to be rather logical, and prefer to avoid 'shipping in public, although my perspective can seem to be coming wildly out of left field on occasion. The Historical Geography of the Wizarding World This is an attempt to define the generalized location of the Wizarding World based on the following facts and inferences. There are only five known Wizarding Schools, canonically located in Brazil, France, New England, Scandinavia, and Scotland respectively. Note that this does not account for correspondence courses and traditional apprenticeships. The Wizarding World itself would seem to be based upon the legends of the noble faerie common across Northwestern Europe. These included the Alfar and Svartalfar of Scandinavia, the Seelie and Unseelie Courts of England, the Gwragedd Annwn of Wales, the Fey of France, and the Sidhe and Sith (both pronounced 'she') of Ireland and Scotland respectively. In all cases, these Faerie were linked with the megalithic monuments and barrows that marked an earlier culture. The WW can be seperated into three seperate nationalities, each associated with a particular European school and language. Beauxbaton with the Brythonic Celts, Durmstrang with the Old Norse, and Hogwarts with the Goedelic Celts. This becomes relevent later. Canonically, the WW didn't fully embrace apartheid until 1692. A date which seems likely to be linked with the Salem Witch Trials in the same year. While they kept themselves seperate, they still associated with the corresponding muggle cultures and experienced the same territorial and technological advancements up until 1692. The existence, or not, of other magical cultures elsewhere in the world has little or no relevance to the state of the WW and is mostly ignored for the sake of clarity. While their were definitely magic- users in Egypt, their existence, and the existence of others elsewhere lies beyond the scope of this essay. The origin of the WW, at least in Europe, lies with the megalithic monument builders of Neolithic Europe from 4300 to 2000 BC. Roughly the same period, and pre-dating, the Old Kingdom in Egypt. From Brittany this culture spread over an area from southern Sweden and the lower Oder valley to the Pillars of Hercules and the Horn of Africa and most points west, excluding the Iberian Plateau, the Low Countries, Eastern England, and the rest of the African Coast. Note that the Tuatha de Danaan, ancestors of the Sidhe and Sith, ruled Ireland from 2400 to 1000 BC. A bit late, but well within acceptable tolerances. Encroaching muggle cultures eventually forced the WW to withdraw, becoming associated with their barrows and monuments. In this time, the WW became the Noble Faerie of legend. The greatest of them were even deified. The Celtic gods are the best known, but the Vanir might also qualify. Frey certainly does. It was alongside the Celts, from 1200 BC, that the WW experienced its first major territorial expansion, and the point at which the Old Norse nationality differentiated itself. In this period, it expanded to cover the remainder of Great Britain, the Low Countries, central Iberia, northeastern Italy, isolated central Anatolia, and down the Danube Valley to the Black Sea, including Thrace and western Transylvania. The Roman conquest forced the second differentiation in the WW, with the Romanized nation becoming the Brythonic Celts, and the non- Romanized nation becoming the Goedelic Celts. Having been too closely associated with the (suppressed) Druids, the WW seems to have mostly withdrawn during this period. Other magical cultures, from the East, may have had greater dominance over the Empire during this period. The second major territorial expansion came with the Vikings and their descendents. In this time, the WW expanded through Russia and across the North Atlantic, as well as southern Italy. Viking settlement in Western Europe likely also had its parallels. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that the Malfoys were linked with the Normans. Christianity posed the first major threat to the existence of the WW. Monotheistic religions tend to be quite unable to tolerate the existence of disenting viewpoints, not being able to simply assimilate them like polytheisms are able to. This became a problem at the close of the middle ages when the Church was able to begin fully suppressing divergent viewpoints more thoroughly. This was the time when the concept of completely seperating themselves from the muggles began to gather momentum. A third, albeit truncated, period of expansion came with the European explorers and colonists of the Renaissance. Colonizing alongside the British, the Dutch, and the Portugese, mostly because the Spanish Inquisition had rousted them from Spain and France placed severe controls on potential colonists, the WW expanded into Brazil and what would eventually become the Thirteen Colonies. The former being associated with the Brythonic nationality and Beauxbatons, and the latter with the Goedelic nationality and Hogwarts. These WW colonies were apparently large enough and distant enough to warrant the establishment of their own major Wizarding Schools. The apartheid of the WW has had its own effects. Sociocultural and technological developments in the muggle world since 1692 haven't been matched, and the WW never experienced the population explosion that the muggles did. Andrew Greaves angreave at yahoo.com From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sun Feb 1 13:13:21 2004 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 08:13:21 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trevor the Toad Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90038 yellobanana08 at hotmail.com writes: > -Otherwise, what would be the point of introducing him? He doesn't > really DO anything, or add to the plot. I disagree. Trevor serves a definite purpose, especially in Book 1. Neville's constant misplacing of Trevor introduces the concept that he (Neville) is a bumbler, an accident on two feet. Most familiars tend to look after themselves, and return when expected, but Trevor is constantly getting away, which can be taken to mean that Trevor knows where he should be better than Neville does. Others have speculated (and this is a theory to which I do NOT subscribe) that Trevor is in fact Uncle Algie transformed, and his function is to keep a constant eye on Neville, who is, in fact, an extremely powerful wizard under an enchantment of failure cast by his own family (for his protection - as the Prophecy would seem to apply nearly as well to him as to Harry) The only thing I'm sure about is that there is something going on with Neville, his parents, and his grandmother which we have not been given full particulars of. Just as an errant thought - does anybody know the average life span of a toad? -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Feb 1 13:14:38 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 13:14:38 -0000 Subject: OOP weather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90039 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "president0084" wrote: > > The drought can be explained away by the fact that surrey is in the > South of England which normally has draught over the summer. Scotland > (Hogwarts)is in the very north of the island hence generally colder. Geoff: Actually, Surrey does not /normally/ have a drought. (One of the driest areas of the UK is East Anglia). The most serious general droughts were in 1976 and then, there was long spell of fine, dry, weather in the latter part of the summer of 1994 and then, as OOTP suggests, there was a long hot summer in 1995 which was fairly wide spread throughout the UK.I think the references in the book refer to later in the Autumn when the weather had changed in general. I really cannot subscribe to Mandy's suggestion that our weather stinks. I walk my dogs 4-5 miles a day and very rarely do I get really wet. Even yesterday, with the gales battering our house (we face west up the Bistol Channel) I was still able to get out and dodge the showers and stay dry; where we live, we can usually forecast the weather for the next couple of hours just by watching the sky and the wind. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 13:40:14 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 13:40:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's Scar Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90040 I have been re-reading PS/SS and came across something that peaked my interest. When McGonagal, DD and Hagrid are looking at baby Harry one last time, McGonagal asks DD if he can fix Harry's scar. He replies that even if he could, he would not as scars can be very useful. We know the scar causes extreme pain when LV is up to something, so I guess you could say the pain is a bit of a tip off to Harry, but it hasn't really been helpful in thwarting or avoiding LV. So will the scar be helpful in some other way to Harry in the future? I am not sure if this has been discussed before. If so, I apologize, and would like to hear others comments. Fran From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 1 14:16:07 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 14:16:07 -0000 Subject: OOP weather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90041 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Sorry to disappoint, but I don't think there are any hidden messages in the constant references to rain by JKR. "K" I guess if this was just an ordinary book describing an ordinary world I would agree with you. However, I think we tend to forget this is a fantasy world and we can't always apply what happens in our world to the Potter world. I believe we miss out on a lot of little clues when we don't remember that. As Hermione says about the Hogwarts ceiling, "It's bewitched to look like the sky outside." ss/ch 7/pg 117 We also have Jim McGuffin, the weatherman. No, I think we are suppose to be keeping an eye on the weather. Of course, I have been wrong before. :-) "K" From Ali at zymurgy.org Sun Feb 1 14:58:14 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 14:58:14 -0000 Subject: OOP weather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "president0084" wrote: > The drought can be explained away by the fact that surrey is in the South of England which normally has draught over the summer. Scotland (Hogwarts)is in the very north of the island hence generally colder.> I agree with the idea that the weather does somehow mirror Harry's circumstances, but I tend to agree with the other Brits. Weather is a British obsession. It is not true that the South of England normally has droughts over the summer. Thames Water supply most of Surrey where little Whinging is supposed to be set. They have not imposed any hosepipe bans for a long time. Certainly, there were no hosepipe bans during the year (1995) in which OoP is generally supposed to have happened. Ali From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 15:13:01 2004 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 07:13:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? Message-ID: <20040201151301.1367.qmail@web40015.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90043 2Feb04 "dumbledore11214" wrote: "...Dumbledore to be capable of anything now. But if you are correct, I also think that Dumbledore deserves to die slow and painful death right now. Politics are dirty, ...but I believe that there is always a line, which even a leader in a war can't cross...I think that consciously allowing Voldie to kill James and Lily will be that line." Paula now: OK, in theory I can agree with you--that there is always a line that a leader must not cross if he/she doesn't wish to be as evil as his/her opponent. But IF James and Lily were in on the plan from the very beginning, ie ready and willing to sacrifice themselves, then IMHO, DD is clean. James and Lily would have know what they were getting into and therefore have gone to their deaths willingly and NOT at the hands of DD. ~Paula Gaon Please visit Beautiful and Fun Things: http://alumni.austincollege.edu/pgaon/ "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irina_l_ at hotmail.com Sun Feb 1 09:47:42 2004 From: irina_l_ at hotmail.com (ilubom) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 09:47:42 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: <000501c3e842$54ea1b60$6601a8c0@mac> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90044 "dumbledore11214": > > > I am more in agreement with Melclaros' theory that Snape was the > > one, who overheard the complete prophecy > "Bumbledor" wrote: > Ah, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Dumbledore state that > someone was listening but did not hear the ENTIRE thing? AKA they only got > HALF of it? > I just listened to the book again.. and I could swear that is what happened. Irina: Thats what DD said happened, but I don't really believe him. I think it is a bit unlikely that someone would bother evesdropping on a job interview with someone who has never before has made any (correct) prediction at all. I also think that it is too convenient that the person has been able to hear just enough to encourage LV to go after the Potters, but not enough to hear the next few lines and that, having heard the first part of the prediction they were allowed to go free to LV and report the whole thing. Surely, if DD didn't want the prediction publicised he was quite capable of modifying/wiping the memory of the prophesy. I guess, what I am saying is that I find it a tad suspicious that a supporter of LV heard just enough to make sure that LV took the necessary steps to enable his own destruction, but not a word more. I agree that Snape was probably the one who told LV the first part of the prophecy, but I think he actually knew the second part as well - ie he deliberately sent LV to his destruction, thus earning DD's trust. Irina From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Feb 1 16:03:20 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Feb 2004 16:03:20 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1075651400.28.30915.m4@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90045 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, February 1, 2004 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From entropymail at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 17:13:42 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 17:13:42 -0000 Subject: Hey, Yew/Harry's Scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90046 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > I have been re-reading PS/SS and came across something that peaked my > interest. When McGonagal, DD and Hagrid are looking at baby Harry one > last time, McGonagal asks DD if he can fix Harry's scar. He replies > that even if he could, he would not as scars can be very useful. > > We know the scar causes extreme pain when LV is up to something, so I > guess you could say the pain is a bit of a tip off to Harry, but it > hasn't really been helpful in thwarting or avoiding LV. So will the > scar be helpful in some other way to Harry in the future? I am not > sure if this has been discussed before. If so, I apologize, and would > like to hear others comments. > > Fran I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'm beginning to think that the scar was not produced by Voldemort's curse at all, as everyone in the WW believes. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the scar is really an eihwaz rune, which often resembles a lightning bolt. The rune is said to protect one from dangerous magic (by reflecting it back). It represents protection as well as death, reincarnation, and long life. It also signifies the necessity for one to go through great, sometimes painful, change in life in order to grow and succeed. Since Lily seems to have had some knowledge of ancient magic, she may have given Harry the scar immediately before (or even quite a while before) Voldemort's visit to Godric's Hollow. If Harry had this protection before Voldemort's curse, it may explain V.'s curse being reflected back and nearly killing him. It may also explain the destruction of Godric's Hollow; a powerful, dangerous curse reflected back would surely be poorly aimed and could cause massive devastation to the surrounding area. Dumbledore may have more understanding of the scar's powers than he has let on (very Dumbledore-ish tactic). Although he may not have been sure what kind of protection the scar might provide Harry in the future, he is probably aware of how it helped Harry during his first battle with Voldemort at Godric's Hollow, and suspects that it will be valuable to him in the future. :: Entropy :: who is wondering if Neville has a rune on his arse. From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 17:24:04 2004 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 17:24:04 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90047 Irina wrote: >Thats what DD said happened, but I don't really believe him. I think it is a bit unlikely that someone would bother evesdropping on a job interview with someone who has never before has made any (correct)prediction at all.< KathyK jumps in: I just wanted to say that while it may be too convenient for people's liking for the eavesdropper to have only heard part of the prophecy, I don't think it's unlikely or convenient that someone would be trying to listen in on this particular conversation. In fact, I think it would be unbelievable if no one was trying to eavesdrop. Is this because there's something vital about Trelawney, the unproven seer, or is this because the position of Divination Professor is so important Voldemort must know what's going on? Of course not! If I were Lord Voldemort, and the only wizard I ever feared was out there doing everything he could to thwart my evil reign of terror, I would have people following his every move as best they could. And since he was headmaster at Hogwarts, I would definitely have spies stationed in Hogsmeade. Dumbledore sitting at the Hog's Head was an opportunity not to be missed. The spy may not have known a thing about who Dumbledore was meeting and what it was regarding until the interview actually began. And then the spy got lucky. I'm in no way discounting the idea that Dumbledore might have had something to do with James and Lily's deaths. You all have made me way too suspicious of him for that. But I find nothing wrong with the idea that Voldemort is terribly interested in anything having to do with Dumbledore and has people doing their best to track his movements, even if it's just to a job interview in the Hog's Head. KathyK, who now wants to go sing Gail's Hog's Head filk From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Feb 1 17:52:42 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 17:52:42 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ilubom" wrote: >> DD was there for a basic job interview of ST, he says himself that he did not expect to hear anything interesting that night. So why would anyone bother eavesdropping on the conversation? << Dumbledore was the recognized leader of the resistance to Voldemort. Naturally Voldemort's spies would keep tabs on him, especially if he were going to meet with someone who wouldn't interest him as a prospective teacher. Irina: >>Also, it is a bit of an unlikely coincidence that the eavesdropper was discovered just when he/she heard enough to encourage LV to attack Harry, but did not hear anything else.<< Perhaps the eavesdropper was Mundungus or someone like him, who was banned from the Hogshead but keeps sneaking back in...I guess the WW has never heard of restraining orders It may be that this person was discovered, not by Dumbledore but by the Hogshead staff, who escorted him out quietly so as not to disturb the other patrons. Dumbledore would not know that he had overheard any of the prophecy or related it to Voldemort until his own spies reported it back to him. Irina: >> - we know that DD trusts Snape, but do not really know why. Just because Snape became a spy for the other side is not really enough. If he betrayed one side, he could as easily betray the other. So why does DD trust him?<< Dumbledore knew that Voldemort could access Harry's thoughts, so he had every reason not to reveal to Harry why he trusts Snape. But Dumbledore has an infallible loyalty test. Anyone who can summon Fawkes is loyal to him. Now, I do think it possible that Voldemort did learn more of the Prophecy from another source, someone else close to Dumbledore or to the Potters. I think that one of the reasons he wanted to hear the thing for himself so badly was that he suspects this source also concealed part of the prophecy from him, for purposes of his own. As we are told in CoS, the one thing a Dark Lord doesn't want is another Dark Lord competing with him. Voldemort must constantly fear betrayal from his own ranks. Sirius himself says that the other Death Eaters think Peter betrayed their master. He didn't, obviously, or he'd have been executed instead of rewarded with a silver hand. But what if someone else did? Suppose that one of the DE's , having heard the entire prophecy, sent Voldemort after the Potters, expecting Voldemort to be finished off. Nobody, even having heard the entire Prophecy, would have predicted that Voldemort would survive a rebounded AK. It sounds as though Voldemort will mark the One as his equal, and then one will die at the hand of the other. Nothing in there about existing as a vapor for thirteen years. But Voldemort did survive, and that would put this betrayer in an awkward position The betrayer couldn't succeed Voldemort as leader of the Death Eaters because of those, like Bella, who were convinced that LV was still around. Pippin From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 18:05:26 2004 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 18:05:26 -0000 Subject: The Historical Geography of the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90049 --- Andrew Greaves wrote: There are only five known Wizarding Schools, canonically located in Brazil, France, New England, Scandinavia, and Scotland respectively. Constance Vigilance (me): Actually, canonically, we have only THREE Wizarding Schools, and the locations of THOSE are in dispute. I think we all agree that Hogwarts is in Scotland, but we don't have absolute canonic proof of even that. That Beubatons is in France is also likely, but it could be in French-speaking Belgium. While I firmly believe that Durmstrang is in Scandinavia, there is much disagreement on that accord among our listees who have made good cases for Eastern Europe and northern Russia. I don't know your reference for a school in Brazil, but I suspect that arguments could be made pro and con on that regard also. As for the existance of a school in New England, I think there is very likely to be such a school, but we have no canonic proof of any school in North America. We do have a cluster of quidditch fans at the World Cup from the Salem Witches' Institute, but that isn't a school, it's a social club for women. It's a JKR joke based on the Women's Institutes in the UK. Did you see the movie Calendar Girls? It's about a fund raiser at a Women's Institute. At the World Cup, we even have the visitors from the Salem Witches' Institute *knitting*, emphasizing the women's focus of the Institute. I did enjoy your post, though. I think you have some good insight on the geographic history of wizardry. ~ Constance Vigilance From amani at charter.net Sun Feb 1 18:30:58 2004 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:30:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Historical Geography of the Wizarding World References: Message-ID: <001701c3e8f1$8a6bf880$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90050 --- Andrew Greaves wrote: There are only five known Wizarding Schools, canonically located in Brazil, France, New England, Scandinavia, and Scotland respectively. Constance Vigilance (me): I don't know your reference for a school in Brazil, but I suspect that arguments could be made pro and con on that regard also. Taryn: I went looking for it and found it in chapter 7 (Bagman and Crouch) of GoF: "'Spect they go to some foreign school," said Ron. "i know there are others. Never met anyone who went to one, though. Bill had a penfriend at a school in Brazil..." [American paperback pg. 84] ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 19:35:54 2004 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 19:35:54 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90051 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spang_b" wrote: > > > Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; > > (chap. 10, page 187 US, page 170 UK, OotP) "Liquid squirted from every boil on the plant; thick, stinking dark green jets of it. They hit the ceiling, the windows, and splattered Luna Lovegood's magazine; Ginny, who had flung her arms up in front of her face just in time, merely looked as though she was wearing a slimy green hat". Ok, I know we are talking about opinion here, but how big do you think a magazine is? I, for one, have not seen one that is so big it will cover the entire body, but that is me. If you want to claim it was a WW magizine, and is therefore larger than others, and take the part written " and splattered Luna Lovegood's magazine", literately as meaning her magazine, AND ONLY her magazine, I wonder what your take is on "Ginny, who had flung her arms up in front of her face just in time, merely looked as though she was wearing a slimy green hat"? Do you think she only got stink sap on her head or possibly on other parts of her that was not covered by her arms? Me personally, I think Luna got Stink sap on her legs, her hands (they were holding the paper after all), and possible, seeing that the stink sap splashed off the ceiling, on top of her head. Fred spang: Thanks for quoting the para. But if you notice further down the page, till the point when Ginny removes the stinksap by her spell,it is explicitly mentioned that Ginny, Neville and Harry are the ones who got the stinksap treatment. It is also mentioned how they got it. Neville is "drenched", Harry gets a "faceful" and Ginny's hands are covered with stinksap because she covers her face with them.There is a possibility that Luna might have got it on her head and legs but wouldn't the the author have described it explicitly when she does it so elaborately for the other three? It is also said that the back of Luna's magazine is covered with the sap. So even the magazine is mentioned but Luna is not. So I don't think Luna's got it. ===================================================================== Fred Waldrop again; spang said above: "and Ginny's hands are covered with stinksap because she covers her face with them." Where did you read that? I have all 5 books in both US and UK version, not to mention in CD form, and I can not find any where in the 10'th chapter, (Luna Lovegood chapter) where it states that Ginny had stink sap any where other than on her head. So, as I said earlier, unless you are saying that because the book ONLY states that Ginny got stink sap on her head, and she did not get any on her arms OR hands that she threw up to protect her eyes, (because it is not in the book), or, maybe the author did not go into the kind of detail that spelled every little bitty tiny thing out, but said just enough for us to come to the conclution that ALL FOUR received some stink sap, whether it was spelled out or not. Fred From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Feb 1 19:39:28 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:39:28 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Historical Geography of the Wizarding World Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90052 In a message dated 2/1/2004 1:06:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, constancevigilance at yahoo.com writes: I don't know your reference for a school in Brazil, but I suspect that arguments could be made pro and con on that regard also ************************* Sherrie here: I don't have the book with me here, but in GoF, Ron tells Harry of a penpal that Bill used to have in a Wizarding school in Brazil - the penfriend had sent Bill a cursed hat that made his ears shrivel up, when Bill couldn't go to visit. IIRC, this takes place while the kids are wandering through the camp at the QWC. Sherrie (shows over, two weeks til Daytona, so y'all are stuck with me!) :-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From president0084 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 15:57:52 2004 From: president0084 at yahoo.com (president0084) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:57:52 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: <20040201151301.1367.qmail@web40015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90053 > Paula now: James and Lily would have know what they were getting into and therefore have gone to their deaths willingly and NOT at the hands of DD. > The alleged prophecy is so vague that the Potter's couldn't know that Harry would survive that attack and NO way would a parent put their child at so much Risk. Is the fact that Harry pulled Gordic sword out of the hat a red- hearing or is the Prophecy a red hearing? Looking back over the books Dumbledore motives seem very very questionable. I suppose the question is. Is Dumbledore capable of such a callous action for the sake of a War? I think for one think he is, In book one Dumbledore had the stone in the school and a set of challenges a 1st year got by. Second year he encouraged harry to go after the chamber of secrets, 3rd year he kept him in the Dark and for years thinking Sirius was responsible for Lilly's death changed his mind in seconds (with no proof) 4th year he allowed harry be entered into the tri-wizard cup. This passed actions suggest Dumbledore motives must at least be questioned. Thanks for reading my rambling Jim From angreave at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 18:32:17 2004 From: angreave at yahoo.com (Andrew Greaves) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 18:32:17 -0000 Subject: The Historical Geography of the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90054 Andrew Greaves wrote: > There are only five known Wizarding Schools, canonically located > in Brazil, France, New England, Scandinavia, and Scotland > respectively. Constance Vigilance: > Actually, canonically, we have only THREE Wizarding Schools, and > the locations of THOSE are in dispute. I think we all agree that > Hogwarts is in Scotland, but we don't have absolute canonic proof > of even that. That Beubatons is in France is also likely, but it > could be in French-speaking Belgium. While I firmly believe that > Durmstrang is in Scandinavia, there is much disagreement on that > accord among our listees who have made good cases for Eastern > Europe and northern Russia. True, and the essay was inspired by that particular thread. One of its rationales was to explain why a school in Scandinavia could have students from across most of eastern Europe. > I don't know your reference for a school in Brazil, but I suspect > that arguments could be made pro and con on that regard also. Actually, it was the Lexicon at http://www.hp-lexicon.org/schools.html > Did you see the movie Calendar > Girls? It's about a fund raiser at a Women's Institute. No, I've never even heard of that movie. I tend more towards science fiction, fantasy, and historically-based movies. > I did enjoy your post, though. I think you have some good insight > on the geographic history of wizardry. Thank you. Andrew Greaves From john_the_walker82 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 1 19:58:16 2004 From: john_the_walker82 at yahoo.co.uk (john_the_walker82) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 19:58:16 -0000 Subject: The Historical Geography of the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90055 --- Andrew Greaves wrote: > There are only five known Wizarding Schools, canonically located in > Brazil, France, New England, Scandinavia, and Scotland respectively. Constance Vigilance (me): > > Actually, canonically, we have only THREE Wizarding Schools, and the > locations of THOSE are in dispute. I think we all agree that Hogwarts > is in Scotland, but we don't have absolute canonic proof of even > that. Hi everybody, first post. The location of Hogwarts has bothered me ever since I read OotP. Note the following: "...two figures shrouded in hoods sat at a table in one of the windows; Hary might have thought them Dementors if they had not been talking in strong Yorkshire accents..." (OotP Uk edition, Ch. 16, p.300) So, two Yorkshire wizards in Scotland, or is Hogwarts a hundred miles south of where we all thought? JW, who loves the idea of a couple of soul-sucking demons enjoying a quiet pint. From erinellii at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 21:25:11 2004 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 21:25:11 -0000 Subject: Hey Lexicon Steve! McGonagall/Riddle SHIP In-Reply-To: <003901c3e806$af8b5de0$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90056 Anne: > 'Charming' does not immediately equate with dating though. Children 'charm' people all the time--from parents to teachers--to get what they want, if they have that particular skill. And you can bet that it DOESN'T include kissing, dating, etc. in that case. Erin: *Children* do charm adults all the time, but very few of them who have that talent are able to articulate what they are doing in precisely the way that Tom does. Besides, fifteen years of age is a bit old for that particular sort of charm. The surly teenage years are when most people are least able to summon it up, and I'd venture to suggest that Tom doesn't exactly count as a child any longer, having just coldbloodedly carried out a plan to kill Myrtle. And, assuming heterosexuality, when was the last time you heard a fifteen-year-old male talk about "charming" other males? It makes more sense to me if Tom's statement refers primarily to females. Anne: What it DOES include is convincing the person being charmed that the charmer is sweet, cute, intelligent, or whatever enough so that the one being charmed wants to do something for the person...so although I COULD see Tom 'charming' McGonagall if they were in school together (perhaps by compliments and hinting that she is so intelligent so he goes to her all the time for answers), in order to get something from her, I don't see it being as a 'dating' boyfriend-girlfriend kind of thing. Erin: Sure, I can see that. That sort of thing, though, could easily get out of hand. Suppose Tom was charming along, thinking he was being all clever and platonic, and then Minerva asked him out on a date. Would he turn her down? Turning her down would expose him as a jerk and make it unlikely that he would ever be able to charm her into anything again. I think he'd run with it, see where it went. Maybe date her until she left Hogwarts. And even then, they'd keep in touch by owl because Tom is smart and not one to squander a potentially useful contact. Suppose, then, in his seventh year, Tom reads of a Dark Arts potion which he believes has a good chance of making him immortal, and which requires, for example, fingernail clippings from the wife of the person drinking the potion. Now Tom needs a wife. He thinks, "Who can I get to marry me in the least amount of time and with the least effort on my part? Ah, yes.... Minerva." So he begins to write more romantically, to court her through his letters. She falls back in love, and they are married when he graduates from Hogwarts. He gets what he needs from her and then shows his true colors before leaving to journey around the world and learn more Dark Arts. I'm not asking anyone to embrace this theory totally and wholeheartedly. Heck, I'm not even sure I really believe it myself. And as Debbie pointed out (and I meant to say this earlier when Valky praised me for it, I just forgot, honestly) the Riddle/McGonagall SHIP is not my original theory or anything, that credit belongs to Porphyria, who wrote in message #38783: > Wait -- didn't she go to school with Tom Riddle? Maybe they were > lovers! Hang on: she's tall and thin and has black hair, just like > Tom -- maybe they're cousins! Or for those of you who like it > juicy, maybe they were both. >:-D Erin: Though I may possibly be the first one to be pushing StillMarried! StillGood!McGonagall as opposed to Evil!McGonagall with Riddle SHIP or Good!McGonagall with *past* Riddle SHIP. If not, I apologize to whoever else first thought it up. So, as I was saying, I'm not arguing this in hopes of gaining anyone's wholehearted belief that this is an inevitable plotline in the story. Let me quote listmember Oliver Fouquet from back in November: "In fact, it raises the problem of-- what does believing in a theory about Harry Potter mean? I would say that I can believe in a theory in two ways. I can believe in a theory in the sense that I think it is likely that this theory will be proved in future books. Or I can believe in a theory in the sense that I would not consider it illogical that this theory is proved in the future books." Erin: So I guess what I'm asking for is the second sense of "belief"-- in other words, for people to stop screaming that the ship is completely impossible. And if you can picture Tom Riddle charming Minerva McGonagall in *any* sense, Anne, you're already there. --Erin From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 21:39:34 2004 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:39:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Trevor the Toad Message-ID: <20040201213934.89777.qmail@web40019.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90057 1Feb04 "neisra2003" wrote: " Why do I believe he (Trevor) is significant? -Otherwise, what would be the point of introducing him? He doesn't really DO anything, ...I think this Uncle Algie character (who gave Trevor to Neville) is kind of fishy. " Paula now: Thanks for jogging me to this point. Trevor has long puzzled me too. However, my point of reference is more towards Scabbers, who was always so *boring*. And we saw what he turned out to be. I have a couple of theories: 1) Remember how Umbridge is always being described as looking like a frog, and from the very beginning is dead set against Harry (at the trial). I could imagine that Trevor is part of a *conspiricy* against Neville--insrtumental in keeping him confused and forgetful. Remember he too could be the one refered to in the prophecy. OR 2) Just the opposite. Umbridge really is a red herring and Trevor is some sort of protective creature that maybe we've yet to meet. If memory serves me correctly, it was Uncle Algie who discovered that Neville really had powers when he dropped Neville out the window and he bounced back up. So somehow, Trevor could fit into all this....Who knows? I'm dying to know too, but like you I feel certain that Trevor will indeed have his moment for good or evil! ~Paula Gaon Please visit Beautiful and Fun Things: http://alumni.austincollege.edu/pgaon/ "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun Feb 1 21:43:43 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:43:43 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hey Lexicon Steve! McGonagall/Riddle SHIP References: Message-ID: <000e01c3e90c$76e36800$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90058 Erin: So I guess what I'm asking for is the second sense of "belief"-- in other words, for people to stop screaming that the ship is completely impossible. And if you can picture Tom Riddle charming Minerva McGonagall in *any* sense, Anne, you're already there. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90059 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Miller" wrote: > Actually, canonically, we have only THREE Wizarding Schools, and the > locations of THOSE are in dispute. I think we all agree that Hogwarts > is in Scotland, but we don't have absolute canonic proof of even > that. That Beubatons is in France is also likely, but it could be in > French-speaking Belgium. While I firmly believe that Durmstrang is in > Scandinavia, there is much disagreement on that accord among our > listees who have made good cases for Eastern Europe and northern > Russia. > dorapye: We have three *named* wizarding schools, but a suggestion that there are, or have been, others, from DD himself, no less: GoF p 165 (UK) 'The Triwizard Tournament was first established some seven hundred years ago, as a friendly competition between the three /largest/ European schools of wizardry - Hogwarts, Beauxbatons and Durmstrang...' (my emphasis) Of course, in the seven hundred years since, maybe all but the three largest schools have closed, but this line would suggest that at the least there *have been* other European schools of wizardry, even if there are only three now. But can we assume that Hogwarts, Beauxbatons and Durmstrang are the *only* European wizard schools now? dorapye From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 21:56:30 2004 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 21:56:30 -0000 Subject: Trevor the Toad In-Reply-To: <20040201213934.89777.qmail@web40019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90060 --- Paula Gaon wrote: > > 1) Remember how Umbridge is always being described as looking like a frog, ... Constance Vigilance: I think it was just JKR's joke - Umbridge was a toady (meaning one who kisses up to superiors), so JKR made her look like a toad. CV From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Feb 1 21:59:34 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 21:59:34 -0000 Subject: The Historical Geography of the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "john_the_walker82" wrote: John_the_walker > Hi everybody, first post. The location of Hogwarts has bothered me > ever since I read OotP. Note the following: > "...two figures shrouded in hoods sat at a table in one of the > windows; Hary might have thought them Dementors if they had not been > talking in strong Yorkshire accents..." (OotP Uk edition, Ch. 16, > p.300) > So, two Yorkshire wizards in Scotland, or is Hogwarts a hundred > miles south of where we all thought? > JW, who loves the idea of a couple of soul-sucking demons enjoying a > quiet pint. Geoff: There has been a lot of discussion on the whereabouts of Hogwarts and the general consensus is that it is in the Highlands of Scotland. There is a long and quite involved thread beginning at 83906 which might be of interest. I see no reason why wizards with Yorkshire accents shouldn't be in Hogsmeade. They could be working in the area or visiting the village. Boys and girls from all areas of the UK come to the school with their own accents after all.... From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 22:02:54 2004 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:02:54 -0000 Subject: The Historical Geography of the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90062 --- dorapy wrote: > We have three *named* wizarding schools, but a suggestion that there > are, or have been, others, from DD himself, no less: > > Of course, in the seven hundred years since, maybe all but the three > largest schools have closed, but this line would suggest that at the > least there *have been* other European schools of wizardry, even if > there are only three now. But can we assume that Hogwarts, > Beauxbatons and Durmstrang are the *only* European wizard schools > now? > > dorapye Constance Vigilance: I didn't say that. I think there ARE more WW schools in Europe and around the world. The original poster said there is *canonical* proof that the five schools he listed were in the locations he indicated. I was quibbling with the claim of canonical proof of location. We have no such proof, only strong indicators. And we don't even have *proof* that there is a school in New England, although I think there probably is. Thanks to those who pointed out the canonical proof that there *is* at least a school in Brazil. CV From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 22:42:44 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:42:44 -0000 Subject: The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90063 Speculation on future events- Question in two parts, what do you think will happen to Umbridge as a result of her actions before and at Hogwarts, and what do you hope will happen to her? Some Possibilities- - She will fade away never to be heard from again. - Everything will be swept under the rug, and nothing will be mentioned or done. She keeps her job, but stays in the story while wisely maintains a low profile and stays out of everyone's way. - She will be thoroughly disgraced, and in essence pushed into a self-imposed exile; too ashamed to show her face. - She will be sent to prison for instigating an attack on Harry that would have left him and his cousin worse than dead. - Disgraced and exiled from the Ministry and the mainstream, she will go underground and join Voldemort's forces. She will blame Harry for everything that happened to her, and hope that joining the DE's will help her get revenge on Harry as well as bring her back to power and prominence when Voldemort takes over. -other Personally, I vote for and hope for the second to last one. She will not be procecuted as that would involve a public trial that would be highly embarassing to the Ministry which is quite embarassed enough as it is. So, Umbridge will be stripped of her job, pay, rank, and status in the wizard world and essentially cast out so as not further embarass the Ministry. She will sulk and brood, blaming Harry for everything, taking no responsibility for her own action, and in a funk of depression and minor psychologcal instability, she will vow to take revenge on him for ruining her life. In doing so, she will seek out the only people who are sympathetic to her cause, and join the Death Eaters. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your perspective, this will be Umbridge's ultimate downfall. When you make a deal with the devil, you really shouldn't be surpised when you end up in hell. In the end, people like Umbridge are their own worst enemy. She will ultimately be the cause of her own doom. Her own future action will cause her far more damage than any court sentence could have, but not before she causes a little more damage to Harry and friends. As it was left in the last book, she seems to have gotten away with it, but I have to believe, given the extent of her crimes (near murder, torture, violation of basic human rights, etc...), her actions can't possibly be ignored. Just a thought. bboy_mn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 00:27:28 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 00:27:28 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: <000501c3e842$54ea1b60$6601a8c0@mac> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Bumbledor" wrote: > > Ah, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Dumbledore state that someone was > listening but did not hear the ENTIRE thing? AKA they only got HALF of it? > > I just listened to the book again.. and I could swear that is what happened. No, you are correct and I am wrong. Sorry about that! It is still does not invalidate the theory about Snape setting Voldie on Potters. It was enough for him to overhear the first part only for Lord thingy to decide that Potters should be dead. That if we were to believe what Dumbledore said, of course. :o) Alla From nansense at cts.com Mon Feb 2 00:50:13 2004 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 00:50:13 -0000 Subject: clothing in the Potterverse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90065 I've always wondered how Harry acquired his muggle clothes. When living with the Dursley's his wardrobe choices were confined to Dudley's cast-offs. In Diagon Alley he is fitted for robes at Mme Malkin's (no mention of casual wear). Hogsmeade trips have never, to my knowledge included a stop at wizard equivalent of Brooks Brothers. I don't see Petunia taking him back-to-school shopping over the summer; she's more prone to instigating clothing humiliation by dying Dudley's old clothes grey in some stinking solution. In the movie abomination/contamination of book 1 we see Harry on the Hogwarts Express with ripped khakies several sizes too big. When watching H fight Quirrelmort I remember thinking: no, not the red cableknit...where did he get that anyway? Then I began pondering the significance of the color red in the alchemical healing process...rubeus potter, etc, etc. Do we ever see Harry acquiring normal under-the-robe wear? **** Have you ever wondered why it's so difficult for adult wizards to understand muggle fashion? it seems like their kids seem relatively down with the lifestyle. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 01:20:38 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 01:20:38 -0000 Subject: Hey, Yew/Harry's Scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > > I have been re-reading PS/SS and came across something that peaked my > > interest. When McGonagal, DD and Hagrid are looking at baby Harry one > > last time, McGonagal asks DD if he can fix Harry's scar. He replies > > that even if he could, he would not as scars can be very useful. > > > > We know the scar causes extreme pain when LV is up to something, so I > > guess you could say the pain is a bit of a tip off to Harry, but it > > hasn't really been helpful in thwarting or avoiding LV. So will the > > scar be helpful in some other way to Harry in the future? I am not > > sure if this has been discussed before. If so, I apologize, and would > > like to hear others comments. > > > > Fran > > > > I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'm beginning to think > that the scar was not produced by Voldemort's curse at all, as > everyone in the WW believes. > > The more I think about it, the more I believe that the scar is really > an eihwaz rune, which often resembles a lightning bolt. The rune is > said to protect one from dangerous magic (by reflecting it back). It > represents protection as well as death, reincarnation, and long life. > It also signifies the necessity for one to go through great, sometimes > painful, change in life in order to grow and succeed. Since Lily > seems to have had some knowledge of ancient magic, she may have given > Harry the scar immediately before (or even quite a while before) > Voldemort's visit to Godric's Hollow. > > snip> > :: Entropy :: who is wondering if Neville has a rune on his arse. I think you may be on to something. If Lily had protected Harry with ancient magic using the eihwaz rune, maybe that is why the scar is in that shape and not a hole as I would expect. Also Harry has gone through a great powerful change in OOP: he lost Sirius and was told the prophecy. Another thing, the books never say that the AK curse produces such a scar or any scarring at all. This may all tie in with Hermione studying Runes..... DD may have recognized the scar as being a sign of eihwaz and did not elaborate the detail to McGonagal. Fran From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 02:25:01 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 02:25:01 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90067 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ilubom" wrote: > Greetings everyone, Ilubom: > I was thinking about DD's explanation to Harry about why LV decided > to try to kill him as a baby - ie that Trelawney's prophesy was > partly overheard by a Deatheater, and the story has some gaping > holes in it. It was overheard; there's nothing about the eavesdropper being a Death Eater. > > DD was there for a basic job interview of ST, he says himself that > he did not expect to hear anything interesting that night. So why > would anyone bother eavesdropping on the conversation? If I was LV, any time there was an opportunity to overhear Dumbledore at any time I'd take it. That's basic intelligence gathering. There aren't too many opportunities to catch DD outside the Hogwarts grounds, and LV should take every one if he can. Every low-life in the WW probably knows there's money, no questions asked, in reporting anything DD says. Recall that only DD knows he's going to a simple interview. That's what war is about. You find out every thing you can about your enemy, listen to every word he says if you can, in the hope that the nugget you seek turns up. LV got lucky. It happens. The folks at NSA pray for moments like that. > My theory is that Dumbledore, probably with Snape's assistance made > sure that LV was aware of the first part of the prophesy and, in > effect sent LV after Harry + his parents. I know it sounds crazy, > but let me explain. It's not just crazy, it's repugnant. Any of the "Evil Dumbledore' theories, if true, would be the greatest betrayal of readeres by an author, ever. Unforgivable. What would it tell readers, many of them young? ** People are no damn good. ** Everyone will betray you in the end; nobody can be trusted. ** Love, loyalty and service are not real. Only betrayal is real. We get this from pop culture, from countless shows where your best buddy from the Army is the one helping the drug dealers. I don't believe for a second that JKR would do it. That's not the same as saying Dumbledore can make a mistake; he has, several, the biggest one born of love and compassion for Harry and maybe a little avoidance of causing pain - a human weakness. What Harry can count on is that Dumbledore will do his best for him, flawed though it may be. > DD hears the prophesy from ST. He realises that, in order to have > any chance to be rid of LV, one of the boys who fit the description > of the prophesy has to be marked by LV as his equal and to have > powers that LV does not know of. He realises of course that LV is > unlikely to "mark" either Harry or Neville unless he has a reason > to do so. How can he do so? - by making sure that LV knows only the > first part of the prophesy! The hole here is that DD heard the prophecy, understood its significance, and hatched a plan to have half of it overheard *after* the fact. (We'll bring out the Time Turner next). Why is this explanation more believable than the one advanced? He did have time thereafter to have James and Lily betrayed to their deaths, knowing that Lily would sacrifice herself in a way that would keep Harry alive but leave him marked. I doubt the "Mission Impossible" team (I just outed my own age) could have brought it off. I think JKR is reasonably logical. She hasn't thrown us major curve balls. Magic is magic, but her characters are as real and human as we are, they act as we do, and the principles of strategy and tactics apply the same. The problem with being a puppeteer like Dumbledore is supposed to be is that the puppets seldom cooperate. Look at the much simpler conspiracies that fall apart in our own world! From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 02:43:49 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 02:43:49 -0000 Subject: clothing in the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90068 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zesca" wrote: > I've always wondered how Harry acquired his muggle clothes. > > When living with the Dursley's his wardrobe choices were confined to > Dudley's cast-offs. > In Diagon Alley he is fitted for robes at Mme Malkin's (no mention of casual > wear). Impossible to explain, really. Watch out for the movie contamination! Just remember that the books aren't a windo into Harry's world, they're a tiny peephole, and we see only a msll portion of Harry's life. IOW, there's plenty of off-page time for him to buy clothes, if he did. When watching > H fight Quirrelmort I remember thinking: no, not the red cableknit...where did > he get that anyway? Then I began pondering the significance of the color red > in the alchemical healing process...rubeus potter, etc, etc. Speaking of movie contamination, did you see _The Sixth Sense?_ Just curious. > Have you ever wondered why it's so difficult for adult wizards to understand > muggle fashion? it seems like their kids seem relatively down with the > lifestyle. I guess that's just a bit of business on JKR's part, a little contrived. The Muggle world has to influence the wizard one in many ways. Harry or Dean or Hermione or whoever with a foot in the Muggle world shows up in their jeans and Muggle fashions and the pureblood kids take a liking to them. Dean brings his football (soccer ball) to school, one of his classmates gets curious, and next thing you know there's a game on the lawn. And so on. A lot of the feeling against the Muggle-born comes from that, I'll bet. Fudge doesn't like to see wizard kids in jeans and tank tops, or listening to U2 on the Walkmen their Muggle-born friends gave them for Christmas. It's a CULTURE WAR! From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 02:53:20 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 02:53:20 -0000 Subject: The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Speculation on future events- > > Question in two parts, what do you think will happen to Umbridge as a > result of her actions before and at Hogwarts, and what do you hope > will happen to her? It's hard to imagine any future for her in the wizard world. Disgrace is seldom that complete, never so in America, it seems like. At least in the UK they resign once in a while. Her disgrace is nothing to Fudge's, far more complete and public. How he remains in office for a day after LV's exposure is more than I can figure out. Your prison scenario is the right one, but I'm afraid it won't happen. Dumbledore will allow her to move on, which may be into the arms of your last possibility, joining LV. This would be a violation of the tactical principle that you never leave living enemies behind you. > In the end, people like Umbridge are their own worst enemy. She will > ultimately be the cause of her own doom. Her own future action will > cause her far more damage than any court sentence could have, but not > before she causes a little more damage to Harry and friends. > Absolutely true, except that it could be a lot more damage. She needs to be neutralized once and for all. Jim From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 03:13:30 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 03:13:30 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90070 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > It's not just crazy, it's repugnant. Any of the "Evil Dumbledore' > theories, if true, would be the greatest betrayal of readeres by an > author, ever. Unforgivable. What would it tell readers, many of > them young? > > ** People are no damn good. > ** Everyone will betray you in the end; nobody can be trusted. > ** Love, loyalty and service are not real. Only betrayal is real. Before I get to "what it would tell the young readers", I'd like to state for the record that no, I don't really believe that JKR will go in the Dumbledore is evil direction in the future books, BUT the only reason I still believe in it is her interviews. If she did not characterise Dumbledore as a sympathetic character , I'd say that canon has quite a few clues, which can point out to Dumbledore misdeeds already and who knows, maybe more are coming. You never know... There are very many sympathetic characters in the books besides Dumbledore and the only message I would read if he will turn out to be evil is that Dumbledore is evil. Period. (again, I don't really think that it is going to happen, but it is possible and not crazy at all, the way I see it) > We get this from pop culture, from countless shows where your best > buddy from the Army is the one helping the drug dealers. I don't > believe for a second that JKR would do it. That's not the same as > saying Dumbledore can make a mistake; he has, several, the biggest > one born of love and compassion for Harry and maybe a little > avoidance of causing pain - a human weakness. What Harry can count > on is that Dumbledore will do his best for him, flawed though it may > be. See, I did not buy his great love to Harry , when he was talking at the end of OoP. I don't believe that "the only wizard Voldie ever feared" could not come up with a better way to keep Harry safe than to leave him with Duddleys and letting him grew up in the atmosphere of if not physical, then emotional abuse for sure.You call it a mistake, I call it a crime. I think it was already repugnant enough, so it is probable that Dum,bledore may do something more repugnant in the future. I think that if Dumbledore really loved Harry as much as he claims, he would find ways to talk to Harry at any time before battle at the MoM happen. Could you tell me what changed at the end of OoP that Dumbledore suddenly thought it was safe enough to talk to the boy? I also think that it was a crime on his part to ask Snape to teach Harry occlumency, although I love the fact that JKR made them to learn more about each other. The problem with being a puppeteer like Dumbledore > is supposed to be is that the puppets seldom cooperate. Look at the > much simpler conspiracies that fall apart in our own world! I understand your unwillingness to consider Dumbledore is ever so evil theories. Trust me, I feel the same way about the theories, which consider that Harry even could be tempted by Dark. Nevertheless, as I said after OoP I don't like Dumbledore anymore. :o) Alla From nansense at cts.com Mon Feb 2 04:27:33 2004 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 04:27:33 -0000 Subject: clothing in the Potterverse/coping with cosmic angst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90071 madeyemood wrote: > > I've always wondered how Harry acquired his muggle clothes. "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Impossible to explain, really. Watch out for the movie > contamination! Just remember that the books aren't a windo into > Harry's world, they're a tiny peephole, and we see only a msll > portion of Harry's life. madeyemood: While I realize that the above standard explanation will do, I guess I just wanted to see if anyone else noticed this omission. One minute ripped oversized khakis, the next, nice loose-fitting dockers and a lovely crewneck. For me this is kind of like the laundry question at Hogwarts. Who does the invisible work of completing this sort of mundane task? Perhaps house elves have the ability to whip up some fine tailoring (along with the treacle tarts) for the sartorially challenged students. "Jim Ferer" wrote: >IOW, there's plenty of off-page time for him to buy clothes, if he did. madeyemood: Harry would need to have the muggle money and transportation to buy clothes from a muggle store. It's not clear to me that he has these resources. We only hear tell of him taking walks at night in his neighborhood, which doesn't seem to be close to a GAP. And then there's the problem of payment: I'm not sure that VISA processes wizard currency. "Jim Ferer" wrote: > I guess that's just a bit of business on JKR's part, a little > contrived. The Muggle world has to influence the wizard one in > many ways. SNIP > A lot of the feeling against the Muggle-born comes from that, I'll >bet. Fudge doesn't like to see wizard kids in jeans and tank tops, or >listening to U2 on >the Walkmen their Muggle-born friends gave them for Christmas. It's >a CULTURE WAR! madeyemood: interesting...perhaps one of the aspects of Potterverse that's so refreshing for us meta-muggles is the opportunity to imagine an environment where kids are less affected by wacky trends. Who needs Bono when you have the Weird Sisters? Even the fashion at Hogwarts seems more modest and sensible. In general, the WW seem relatively wholesome --- archaic or odd rather than modern scary decadent. Hags while grotesque could be seen as comparatively quaint/eccentric, whereas the language of fashion seems so much more viscious, competitive, anorexic and hypersexualized in muggleworld. "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Speaking of movie contamination, did you see _The Sixth Sense?_ madeyemood: yes'm. speaking of non-canon movies, I just saw _Thirteen_ about these wretchedly dissipated girls: the piercings, the sex, the wanton self-hatred and drug use. Potter's world does create a very nice break from the rather frightening muggle social issues currently engaging the collective adolescent psyche. We don't have to worry about Harry piercing his tongue, or the nature of his relationship with the piercing dude. Perhaps I have more in common with Fudge than I thought...It just seems to be getting more and more impossible for your average muggle young person to feel okay. HP expresses pretty extreme adolescent feelings, but he's reacting to genuinely nasty circs. He isn't bumming out that his parents won't let him go to the movies; he's being persecuted by antagonistic incontrovertably abusive relatives. He doesn't just think the world's unfair because his allowance isn't big enough to pay for whatever trinket of the moment; he's the target of an actual campaign promoted by the Ministry of Magic. Furthermore, he isn't using drugs, sex, food or any of the standard addictions teens cultivate for dealing with the ups and downs of adolescence. Harry's primary areas of excess seem to be quidditch and rage. Lucky for him, when he's in the WW both of those things are regarded with intelligence. So while he has numerous experiences of intense intolerability, wise people around him (Dumbledore, Minerva M, Hermione, the Weasleys, Sirius, Lupin) understand and support his perceptions and do their best to share their perspective in some pragmatic way that will help Harry find a solution and bear this remarkable load. From kkearney at students.miami.edu Mon Feb 2 05:35:48 2004 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 05:35:48 -0000 Subject: The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90072 Steve asked: > Question in two parts, what do you think will happen to Umbridge as a > result of her actions before and at Hogwarts, and what do you hope > will happen to her? > > Some Possibilities- > - She will fade away never to be heard from again. > - Everything will be swept under the rug, and nothing will be > mentioned or done. She keeps her job, but stays in the story while > wisely maintains a low profile and stays out of everyone's way. > - She will be thoroughly disgraced, and in essence pushed into a > self-imposed exile; too ashamed to show her face. > - She will be sent to prison for instigating an attack on Harry that > would have left him and his cousin worse than dead. > - Disgraced and exiled from the Ministry and the mainstream, she will > go underground and join Voldemort's forces. She will blame Harry for > everything that happened to her, and hope that joining the DE's will > help her get revenge on Harry as well as bring her back to power and > prominence when Voldemort takes over. > -other Other. I certainly don't see her joining with the DEs. Sure, she hates Harry, and I don't doubt she will blame him for her utter disgrace. However, her hatred of the DEs was also genuine (in my opinion). She is not completely stupid (okay, I know we don't really have much evidence for this, but she managed to fool a lot of intelligent wizards and witches, in addition to the stupid ones). Her ultimate motivation has always been personal fame, and I think she realizes that Voldemort and the Death Eaters can never give her this. So what do I think will happen with her? Well, this is the first time I've really thought about it, so I'll need a little time to come up with a legitimate theory. But I think she is going to end up helping Dumbledore. Not very willingly, of course. However, she has suddenly gained knowledge about a topic to which few have been ever been exposed. About a group that could potentially be very helpful to Dubledore's fight: the centaurs. Dumbledore has seemingly had very little success on this front. He has gained the friendship of only Firenze, as far as we know, and in turn gained the severe dislike of the others. And he has been unable to persuade them to take sides in the upcoming battle. I think Umbridge, in her stay with the centaurs (several hours, at the least), may have picked up some crucial tidbit of information. I think, in the end, she is going to have to learn to overcome her severe prejudices against part-humans, as well as her hatred of Dumbledore and his followers, and offer this information. I'll have to think about this some more. -Corinth From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 06:48:05 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 06:48:05 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: Alla: > If she did not characterise Dumbledore as a sympathetic character , > I'd say that canon has quite a few clues, which can point out to > Dumbledore misdeeds already and who knows, maybe more are coming. > You never know... I don't characterize Dumbeldore's actions as "misdeeds." He can be criticized for anything, IMO, except being malicious. > There are very many sympathetic characters in the books besides > Dumbledore and the only message I would read if he will turn out to > be evil is that Dumbledore is evil. Period. (again, I don't really > think that it is going to happen, but it is possible and not crazy > at all, the way I see it) There's a concept in literature, especially in mysteries, of an author "playing fair." An author can't pull stuff completely out of thin air, or tell you one thing in the author's voice and then negate it. You'd say there are many clues that DD could be evil, but I don't think there are, really. For a shining example of fair surprises, look at _The DaVinci Code_. As far as messages go, you can't take a character readers have known as good, truly good, and make him evil that way. It would be like having one of the Seven Dwarfs turn out to be working for the Queen. > See, I did not buy his great love to Harry , when he was talking at > the end of OoP. I don't believe that "the only wizard Voldie ever > feared" could not come up with a better way to keep Harry safe than > to leave him with Duddleys and letting him grew up in the > atmosphere of if not physical, then emotional abuse for sure.You > call it a mistake, I call it a crime. I think it was already > repugnant enough, so it is probable that Dum,bledore may do > something more repugnant in the future. I won't say that until I know exactly what else DD could have done. The whole WW does seem to let things happen that our world would not, though, doesn't it? I think of Snape's persecution of various students here, for example. The existence of Slytherin House itself is another. > I think that if Dumbledore really loved Harry as much as he claims, > he would find ways to talk to Harry at any time before battle at > the MoM happen. Dumbledore explained it, and I don't think he was lying. > Could you tell me what changed at the end of OoP that Dumbledore > suddenly thought it was safe enough to talk to the boy? > I also think that it was a crime on his part to ask Snape to teach > Harry occlumency, although I love the fact that JKR made them to > learn more about each other. A crime is something more than a failure to come up with a more palatable solution to a problem than the one chosen. Dumbledore thought the risk too great, to Harry and to the cause of fighting Voldemort. The cause is more important than Harry is. Dumbledore is not above criticism. He should have found the will to tell Harry everything sooner. I don't know why he couldn't have given Harry some comforting words through an intermediary, unless he thought even that would have given LV an advantage. But I would not criticize a leader because he made hard calls. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Feb 2 07:50:01 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 07:50:01 -0000 Subject: The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90074 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: Corinth: > But I think she is going to end up helping > Dumbledore. Not very willingly, of course. However, she has suddenly > gained knowledge about a topic to which few have been ever been > exposed. About a group that could potentially be very helpful to > Dubledore's fight: the centaurs. > > Dumbledore has seemingly had very little success on this front. He > has gained the friendship of only Firenze, as far as we know, and in > turn gained the severe dislike of the others. And he has been unable > to persuade them to take sides in the upcoming battle. > Geoff: OTOH, hasn't Hagrid had a lot of dealings with the centaurs - at least until the Firenze business created problems. He ought to have a wealth of experience to draw on. From flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com Sun Feb 1 21:08:00 2004 From: flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com (Diana Walter) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 21:08:00 -0000 Subject: The Historical Geography of the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90075 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "john_the_walker82" wrote: > "...two figures shrouded in hoods sat at a table in one of the > windows; Hary might have thought them Dementors if they had not been > talking in strong Yorkshire accents..." (OotP Uk edition, Ch. 16, > p.300) > So, two Yorkshire wizards in Scotland, or is Hogwarts a hundred > miles south of where we all thought? Me (daw): Yorkshire wizards in Scotland? Why not? The Hog's Head is in Hogsmeade, after all, which is the only entirely wizarding settlement around; it would be entirely possible that they had both grown up elsewhere, decided they wanted a more wizard-friendly environment, and moved to Hogsmeade as adults. Or maybe they were visiting on either business or pleasure. --daw From noelleisastar at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 23:20:52 2004 From: noelleisastar at yahoo.com (noelleisastar) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 23:20:52 -0000 Subject: Squib or muggle - who's a late bloomer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > I was rereading some random JK interviews, and in one quote she said > that someone very late in life (No specific age given), who has > never shown any ability for magic previously, will be able to do > magic in very desperate conditions. > > I'm sure it's been discussed, but anyone have a thought on who this > could be? Noelle says: Hermione's parents are also a possibility. I think that they are a bit more of a long shot however, especially being as they have yet to play any role whatsoever in the books. From warhound at accessus.net Mon Feb 2 00:22:25 2004 From: warhound at accessus.net (Beverly Adams) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 00:22:25 -0000 Subject: The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90077 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Speculation on future events- > > Question in two parts, what do you think will happen to Umbridge as a > result of her actions before and at Hogwarts, and what do you hope > will happen to her? > > (snip)> > Personally, I vote for and hope for the second to last one. She will > not be procecuted as that would involve a public trial that would be > highly embarassing to the Ministry which is quite embarassed enough as > it is. So, Umbridge will be stripped of her job, pay, rank, and status > in the wizard world and essentially cast out so as not further > embarass the Ministry. > (snip) > she will seek out the only people > who are sympathetic to her cause, and join the Death Eaters. > > Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your perspective, this will > be Umbridge's ultimate downfall. When you make a deal with the devil, > you really shouldn't be surpised when you end up in hell. > (snip) > > As it was left in the last book, she seems to have gotten away with > it, but I have to believe, given the extent of her crimes (near > murder, torture, violation of basic human rights, etc...), her actions > can't possibly be ignored. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Beverly replies: I agree with you, Steve. I hope she goes to prison as what she did while at Hogwarts was criminal. But while we know the extent of the things she did (making students inflict self-imposed scars, teaching only theory and no practical, becoming a tyrant, almost inflicting an Unforgiveable on a student), I'm wondering how much will come out and be general knowledge to those who have that happy power to put her in prison. Fudge (in particular) will not want it tossed about how horrible she was as a DADA teacher and all the subsequent things she did. Look at all the power he gave her so willingly. He will try to cover it up and make it all go away--including Umbridge who will be sent on some remote assignment. However, she has a thirst for power so I could see her going over to the Death Eaters. What would be nice is if she did become involved with the DEs and in a future scene come face-to-face with members of the DA. They would curse and hex her so much that she would be a squelching slug like Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle only with no one to turn her back into a human. Beverly (who every time she read about toad-like-Umbridge thought of "Roz" the character in "Monster's Inc.") From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Feb 2 03:13:16 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 03:13:16 -0000 Subject: clothing in the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zesca" wrote: >snip< Have you ever wondered why it's so difficult for adult wizards to understand > muggle fashion? it seems like their kids seem relatively down with the > lifestyle. My first post here. I've had a hard time picturing the clothes as discribed in the book. It certainly sounds like they wear robes, with no street clothes underneath, but it's hard to imagine how they'd ride brooms and really get around. In the movie Snape's outfit does a very good job of covering his wrist and neck and I wonder if that is a clue, however, the book doen't describe his robes as doing that. Potioncat From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 03:53:55 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (dk59us) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 03:53:55 -0000 Subject: Adalbert Waffling (1899-1981) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90079 OK, here is an odd coincidence (at least I thought so) from the back of a wizard card. I wouldn't pay it much attention except that it appears that JKR wrote the texts for the cards and at least some folk consider them part of canon. Anyway, the text is short, so here it is: "Adalbert Waffling was born in 1899 and died in 1981. This famous thinker wrote all about magic. Every modern wizard and witch has learned from his writings." Waffling wrote Magical Theory, which is on the required list of books for First-Years (PS Canadian pb, Chapter 5, p. 52). So what, one may well ask? Well, Waffling was 82 when he died, certainly a respectable enough age, but it seems that the lifespan of wizards may be somewhat longer than that of muggles. At least for Dumbledore... A prominent wizard, respected author. And he died in 1981, which if I read the canonical evidence correctly, was the height of Voldemort's first ascendancy--until October 31 at Godric's Hollow. The card doesn't list the cause of death. Was Adalbert Waffling one of those about whom Hagrid said, "'Course some stood up to him--an' he killed 'em." (PS Can.pb, p. 45)? Or did Voldemort think there was something to be learned from Waffling, something not in his published works? Probably a coincidence, but who knows? Eustace_Scrubb From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Mon Feb 2 05:44:16 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 05:44:16 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90080 There is one thing that Dumbledore mentions in OotP. He says (roughly paraphrased) that he cared too much for Harry's well being and his happiness to let him in on the truth. He also says that he didn't care how many people died (poorly paraphrased, sorry book's not on me). So I think that Dumbledore perhaps was probably a bit too into the war with Voldie at the beginning, but began to soften up as the weapon, AKA Harry, actually took human form and grew in front of his eyes. Not only is Harry the weapon that could stop Voldie, but he is actually a friend and someone DD cares about now. IT is a bit of a predicament, don't you think? So perhaps DD was in on a lot of the conspiracy, though it probably did not happen how he calculated perhaps. I don't see him as allowing the Potters to be killed, and like someone mentioned before, I dont see the Potters saying, "sure, let old voldie come and try to kill my son so that he might be able to stop him one day." I think perhaps DD had gotten into making the prophacy happen, yet since he would not know that the parents would die and such, nor does the marking like an equal make much sense, he probably tried to play that one by ear, hoping for the best, but got the worst. And not only does the new weapon half kill Voldie, but he lives a miserable life until he goes to Hogwarts, and has to have a yearly battle against the dark side. He sees this weapon as a person, but one who has to live miserably to save Wizard and Muggle kind everywhere. I think that he regrets ever having to put Harry up to it, but it was too late already, and it is time for Harry accept his fate. Sawsan, who is rambling because the thought is on the tip of her tongue, but is too tired to make much sense. From irina_l_ at hotmail.com Mon Feb 2 04:17:48 2004 From: irina_l_ at hotmail.com (ilubom) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 04:17:48 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90081 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > It [the prophecy] was overheard; there's nothing about the eavesdropper being a > Death Eater. Irina: Sorry, I should have said a LV supporter. Whoever supposedly overheard it reported it to LV, they wouldn't have done it if they didn't support him (that's why I don't think it was Dung - he was in the Order and would not have gone running to LV) >Every low-life in > the WW probably knows there's money, no questions asked, in reporting > anything DD says. Irina: I have to say that I don't recall LV's supporters ever been rewarded with money in any of the five books. It seems that they are doing it either for ideological reasons, to avoid death or to "join the biggest bully on the block" - ie to ingratiate themselves to someone who they think will be the greatest power in the world and hopefully get a share of that power. > LV got lucky. It happens. The folks at NSA pray for moments like that. Irina: On the contrary, LV got very, very, very unlucky. That is my point - the ONLY way LV could be defeated is if he marked one of the boys mentioned in the prophecy as "his equal". He found out just enough to encourage him to take the necessary steps to his own downfall (ie attack Harry), but not enough to put him on guard. Irina (previous post): > > My theory is that Dumbledore, probably with Snape's assistance made > > sure that LV was aware of the first part of the prophesy and, in > > effect sent LV after Harry + his parents. Jim: > It's not just crazy, it's repugnant. Any of the "Evil Dumbledore' > theories, if true, would be the greatest betrayal of readeres by an > author, ever. Unforgivable. What would it tell readers, many of > them young? > > ** People are no damn good. > ** Everyone will betray you in the end; nobody can be trusted. > ** Love, loyalty and service are not real. Only betrayal is real. > >I don't believe for a second that JKR would do it. That's not the same as saying Dumbledore can make a mistake; he has, several, the biggest one born of love and compassion for Harry and maybe a little > avoidance of causing pain - a human weakness. What Harry can count on is that Dumbledore will do his best for him, flawed though it may be. Irina: I am not at all pushing an evil "DD theory". I think that, if Lily and James were in on the plan, this action would not be "evil" - it would be a tragic sacrifice on part of everyone concerned for the greater good of others. I do not think that good and evil in the books are simple concepts. The "good" and the "bad" characters are not neatly segregated and identified. In fact, Harry constantly learns that people are so complex that they cannot be divided into "good" and "bad". For example - from the first book we learn that there is more to Snape than his nasty side, in the third book we learn that the "bad guy" Sirius is not what he seems and that the "good guy" Lupin risked the lives of those at Hogwarts by the antics of his youth and by not revealing to DD that Sirius is an animagus, in the fourth book we see Barty Crouch Snr as an incarnate of both "good" and "evil" in his fight against LV and his son as an "evil" mascarading as an innocent, frightened boy. In the fifth book we see Fudge and Percy, neither of whom are inately evil, doing all the wrong things, we learn that James had a side to his character even Harry can't be proud of and that Petunia may care more for Harry than she lets on. As Sirius tells Harry, we see that the "world is not divided into good people and deatheaters." I think JKR's writing is sophisticated enough to create characters and plots that are not black and white but are imbued with moral dilemmas. And this would be one of those: if James and Lily were willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the multitudes that would have been destroyed by LV's continued reign - should DD have enabled it? What if they knew nothing about it - would he be justified in sacrificing them for the sake of thousands of others (Coming from a liberal ideological standpoint that each life is infinitely precious and may not be used as a numbers game, I would say "no", but minds may differ - a utilitarian perspective would lead to the opposite view) I also note that DD does not view death as the worst thing that can happen to a person - he says as much to Harry in the first book and to LV in OoP when the latter is surprised that DD is not trying to kill him. It is plausible that he regarded death as a lesser of two evils. > The hole here is that DD heard the prophecy, understood its > significance, and hatched a plan to have half of it overheard *after* > the fact. (We'll bring out the Time Turner next). Why is this > explanation more believable than the one advanced? Irina: No, I don't think it was overheard after the fact, I don't think it was overheard at all. I think that someone who LV trusted, but who was really playing for the other side (probably Snape) reported only the first part to LV on purpose - to make sure that LV took the steps necessary for his own downfall, but without knowing their significance. > He did have time thereafter to have James and Lily betrayed to their deaths, knowing > that Lily would sacrifice herself in a way that would keep Harry > alive but leave him marked. I doubt the "Mission Impossible" team > could have brought it off. Irina: DD knew about the ancient magic that saved Harry's life, he also knew that LV always underestimated it (DD says as much in PS). If Lily and James were in on the plan - they would certainly be very aware of it too. I think it is also curious that DD knew why Harry had survived immediately after the Potters' death - that is why he brought Harry to his aunt's house - he was putting his trust in Lily's blood, sealing her sacrifice, he says as much in OoP. I am wondering just how he knew that Lily died to save Harry - DD wasn't there, there were no witnesses to what happened at the Potters' house - so how did he know that it was Lily who gave her life to save Harry (she would not have died otherwise). DD figured it all out before even seeing Harry's scar - Hagrid was sent to fetch Harry and bring him to his aunt's house very quickly after the murders - Muggles didn't even have a chance to get into the house yet! Either there was some very good guess work and very quick thinking or DD knew what went down in Godric Hollow! Sorry about the length of this everyone :-) From Tigerstormxx at aol.com Mon Feb 2 07:57:55 2004 From: Tigerstormxx at aol.com (james320152002) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 07:57:55 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90082 "president0084" : > Looking back over the books Dumbledore motives seem very very > questionable. I suppose the question is. > > Is Dumbledore capable of such a callous action for the sake of a War? > > I think for one think he is, In book one Dumbledore had the stone in > the school and a set of challenges a 1st year got by. Second year he > encouraged harry to go after the chamber of secrets, 3rd year he kept > him in the Dark and for years thinking Sirius was responsible for > Lilly's death changed his mind in seconds (with no proof) 4th year Well to be fair Dumbledore is skilled at Occlumency so he would know if he was lying or not. And Albus Dumbledore is a very old and wise man and a very reasonable man. That mixed with the fact that he is good at Occlumency, I am not suprised he could think that Sirius Black could be an innocent man James From Tigerstormxx at aol.com Mon Feb 2 08:02:34 2004 From: Tigerstormxx at aol.com (james320152002) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 08:02:34 -0000 Subject: If Albus Dumbledore is really Evil...Who is he working with Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90083 I have heard a lot of the Dumbledore is evil theories but I wonder if Dumbledore is really evil who is he working for ? I seriously don't think it could be Lord Voldemort becuase those two being the greatest wizards in the world I don't see how the wizarding world would stand a chance without Dumbledore. What ideas do you guys have ? James From kking0731 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 2 01:10:29 2004 From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 20:10:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90084 >Paula now: >OK, in theory I can agree with you--that there is always a line that a >leader must not cross if he/she doesn't wish to be as evil as his/her >opponent. But IF James and Lily were in on the plan from the very >beginning, ie ready and willing to sacrifice themselves, then IMHO, DD is >clean. James and Lily would have know what they were getting into and >therefore have gone to their deaths willingly and NOT at the hands of DD. Kathy: I would have to agree with Paula, that would be the most powerful magic, to be willing to sacrifice your life for your child. Lily and James were willing to do anything to save Harry. _________________________________________________________________ What are the 5 hot job markets for 2004? Click here to find out. http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Custom/MSN/CareerAdvice/WPI_WhereWillWeFindJobsIn2004.htm?siteid=CBMSN3006&sc_extcmp=JS_wi08_dec03_hotmail1 From kking0731 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 2 01:50:34 2004 From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 20:50:34 -0500 Subject: Hey, Yew/Harry's Scar Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90085 Lily didn't leave a visible sign on Harry as it states in SS pg.299 when DD says "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realize that love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign... So how could the scar have appeared?...it wasn't his mother. Her mark was definitely (from this statement) not visible. Voldemort did however "mark" him. Kathy _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 From belijako at online.no Mon Feb 2 12:12:23 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 12:12:23 -0000 Subject: clothing in the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90086 Jim wrote: Fudge doesn't like to see wizard kids in jeans and tank tops, or listening to U2 on the Walkmen their Muggle-born friends gave them for Christmas. It's a CULTURE WAR! Berit replies: A Muggle football will work nicely at Hogwarts (though, if the other students are anything like Ron, they just think Muggle sports are weird; after all the soccer teams on the posters don't even MOVE!), but I doubt a walkman would work; according to Hermione electrical appliances go hay-wire because of all the magical protection... :-) I don't have canon evidence for this, but I suspect a walkman wouldn't work very well at a wizard's house/property either, because most wizarding families would use a lot of magic all the time, making Muggle appliances dysfunctional. Mrs Weasley, for intance, uses magic all the time to cook food, clean the dishes, you name it. The Weasleys has an old radio in the kitchen playing wizard music, but my guess is that a wizard radio works on magic and are not fitted with plugs or batteries. Mr Weasley would be delighted if they were though :-) Also, even though wizard children seem to be more in tune with Muggle clothing than their parents, there is no canon evidence that they conform to other aspects of teenage Muggle culture like using walkmen and computers (Harry had to explain to Ron what a computer game was). Why, they've got magic! They don't need microwave ovens or television sets or walkmen or computers :-) So, clothing or not, the gap between the Muggle and wizard world seem to be rather significant... I've read a few fan-fics, and especially the stories written by younger HP-readers tend to include a lot of Muggle artifacts like walkmen being played at Hogwarts (I understand why they'd want to do that, because that's the world they know and care about). But I must admit that irritates me a bit. It's not at all in tune with Rowling's magical world. I see no need of introducing more of the Muggle world to the magical world; it's perfectly charming and wonderful as it is! But I guess that makes me just like the "oldfashioned wizards" who scoff at Muggle stuff :-)) Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 2 13:16:49 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:16:49 -0000 Subject: clothing in the Potterverse (rather long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90087 zesca wrote: << I've always wondered how Harry acquired his muggle clothes. When living with the Dursley's his wardrobe choices were confined to Dudley's cast-offs. In Diagon Alley he is fitted for robes at Mme Malkin's (no mention of casual wear). Hogsmeade trips have never, to my knowledge included a stop at wizard equivalent of Brooks Brothers. I don't see Petunia taking him back-to-school shopping over the summer; she's more prone to instigating clothing humiliation by dying Dudley's old clothes grey in some stinking solution. Have you ever wondered why it's so difficult for adult wizards to understand muggle fashion? it seems like their kids seem relatively down with the lifestyle.>> Sigune here: [OOOOOH - fashion and the WW! I apologise right here for what will be a rambling post...] Yes, the Muggle dress confusion seems strange to me, too; but I agree with other posters that there are bits of information we seem to be missing simply because they are not being discussed in the books as they would probably lead too far away from the main storyline. Here are my thoughts: - Harry went to a perfectly 'normal' (i.e. Muggle) primary school. Surely other wizard children (not to mention Muggle-borns) will have done so, too. As far as we know there are no wizarding primary schools. It has been suggested on other threads that wizard children below the age of eleven receive private tutoring; but surely that arrangement cannot suit every wizarding family? My guess is that even a number of non-Muggleborn wizard children attend Muggle primary schools, which means they would be in touch with Muggle culture, from which follows there would be some 'contamination' at least, as is the case among Muggles also (e.g. at my school there were 'seasons' of a sort: one girl would bring a skipping rope and next day the playground was full of skipping ropes; next month we would all be collecting stickers - in any case someone launched a fad and then there was no escaping it). Of course I have no canon support whatsoever. - Where do wizards live? Hogsmeade, we know, is a purely magical community. Godric's Hollow is another one. But I should think that many wizarding families live in Muggle communities. The Blacks, a pureblood family, have their house in London. Although it is (almost?) perfectly possible for magical folk to avoid all contact with Muggles (seeing they have their own transport, their own radio etc. etc.), I imagine that a fair number of them would in fact be in touch with Muggles on a regular basis. I mean, even a witch or wizard might enjoy a walk in the neighbourhood, or (window)shopping, or a fair, or an exhibition in a Muggle museum or something of the kind. Or they might rent a flat in a Muggle building. - As for clothes: maybe we are talking generation gaps here. I can imagine young wizards or witches being sensitive to Muggle fashion, whereas older ones may grow more conservative and go back to the good old robe. Wearing Muggle(inspired) clothing might be a way for young wizards and witches of expressing their youthfulness and distancing themselves from their parents' generation - ideologically and otherwise. Besides, trousers can be very practical. Maybe the adult wizards are simply losing their touch by being too absorbed in the WW. Besides, if wizards indeed have twice the lifespan of a Muggle, there can be little wonder that they can't keep up with all the fashion changes in the Muggle world. Besides I think they wouldn't be out of tune at some parties :). * Personally (and here I ought perhaps to mention that I am drawing a Potterverse comic, just to signal that the visual aspect of the WW is of great concern to me) I find that, although the robes may work perfectly in a novel and are indeed the kind of clothing wizards are identified with, they are a bit boring. Even taking into account that you can vary cloth, colour, neckline etc., basically what you get is a long dress that is sometimes combined with a cloak. Not visually challenging at all (well, at least not to me). So I would ardently defend the film designers' choices AND any wizard who decides to mix some Muggle clothing with his/her wizarding getup. * - As far as money is concerned: in CoS Hermione's parents change Muggle money at Gringotts, I believe - or this might come from a JKR interview - my memory is letting me down, but I am 100% sure that I read somewhere that Gringotts change Muggle money. In any case I have been wondering about such simple things as food as well: do wizards buy their peas and potatos and steaks at strictly wizard shops? I doubt it. So they would need Muggle money anyway. Of course the novels are primarily concerned with signalling everything that is specific to the WW as these are the things we poor Muggles know nothing about and need introducing to; witches and wizards going to the supermarket are not, I suppose, a priority in the storytelling. But I like to think that the WW is more mixed up with the Muggle world than it appears at first sight in canon; wizards and Muggles share, after all, their humanity, and the strict segregation between them sounds very Voldemortish/purebloodish to me. And then there are all those Muggleborn or mixed ancestry wizards and witches - what kind of people would they be to simply discard all their Muggle relations - school friends, neighbours, family etc. - once they realise they have magic in their blood? Erm - am I proving myself an arch-Muggle here :)? Yours severly, Sigune - who adores fashion and design AND wizards and witches From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 13:43:01 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:43:01 -0000 Subject: Hey, Yew/Harry's Scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90088 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > > I have been re-reading PS/SS and came across something that peaked my > > interest. When McGonagal, DD and Hagrid are looking at baby Harry one > > last time, McGonagal asks DD if he can fix Harry's scar. He replies > > that even if he could, he would not as scars can be very useful. > > SNIP> > > I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'm beginning to think > that the scar was not produced by Voldemort's curse at all, as > everyone in the WW believes. > > The more I think about it, the more I believe that the scar is really > an eihwaz rune, which often resembles a lightning bolt. The rune is > said to protect one from dangerous magic (by reflecting it back). It > represents protection as well as death, reincarnation, and long life. > It also signifies the necessity for one to go through great, sometimes > painful, change in life in order to grow and succeed. Since Lily > seems to have had some knowledge of ancient magic SNIP> > :: Entropy :: who is wondering if Neville has a rune on his arse. Another thing I read in PS/SS that I had not noticed before is when Harry i getting his wand. Olivander states that James was good for transfigurations and Lillys was good for CHARMS!!! So there is a clue for POA and I thnk in coming books we may learn more of Lilies expertise of charms. I think that it will be revealed that it was Lily's charm on Harry using the eihwaz rune that saved his life. This does not negate any cannon of Lily's love saving Harry. She loved him so much that she put an ancient protection charm on him. The scar is just comfirmation of this. The force of the AK was at the spot where the scar is on Harry's forehead. It's analogous to a car alarm: you dont know it is there until it is tripped. In GOF, Harry tells DD what LV said about having the same blood protection that Harry has from Harry's mother. ...."For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of of something like triumph in DD eyes......" Could this mean that LV is thinking Harry is only proteced by Lily's blood, and DD knows it is more than that. I think there have been posts on the meaning of that particular sentence. As I stated before, I think DD saw rune mark and recognized it for what it is. Fran From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Mon Feb 2 13:18:51 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:18:51 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90089 Alla wrote: Could you tell me what changed at the end of OoP that Dumbledore suddenly thought it was safe enough to talk to the boy? Sawsan here: Anyway, Dumbledore ignored Harry throughout OOTP so that Voldie would not make a close connection between Harry and DD, but when DD goes to save Harry personally at the MoM, then it had already been obvious that they were close. Also, Harry had just suffered a terrible loss, and had been through five years of knowing that there is something about Voldie and him, and having to fight the Death Eaters in some form or another, so it was high time he got some answers. Dumbledore just thought that he might as well let him in on the horrible truth. Imagine looking at a child and knowing that they had a horrible destiny ahead of them and might even die. That has to be hard. I am sure DD has his faults, but I don't think that he would be evil. I think he knows too much, and has probably even tampered with time, so he knows that somethings he cannot change, no matter how powerful of a wizard he is. He seems to have to watch things fall apart and watch people die, knowing that it was inevitable. I am sure that DD has had a pretty miserable life, so that would make seem a bit less caring or what not. OK enough of my ranting. Sawsan From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Mon Feb 2 12:43:14 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 12:43:14 -0000 Subject: Hey, Yew/Harry's Scar Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90090 Sawsan here. I looked up the eihwaz (sp?) rune on the net. http://www.bewitchingways.com/runes/eihwaz.htm This website says that the rune means "Another nonreversible rune, Eihwaz is generally a positive rune in divination. Its traditional meaning is yew; because of this Eihwaz is associated with hunting and the daring that hunting necessitates. Eihwaz often appears in a reading to tell the querent, "Go ahead, take the plunge, the risk is worth it in the end." Basically, Eihwaz indicates that the querent has set her sights on a viable target and is unlikely to encounter defeat. And even if she does encounter catastrophe, it will be minor and may in fact be to her advantage in the long run." That also goes along with Harry and his daring, and hopefully, his defeating Voldie. Another few facts, which possibly are irrelevent, but might be worth looking into, are these: Also called Yr or Eoh Letter: E Old Norse name: none Flower: lilac Gem: topaz Number: 5 The part about its traditional meaning is yew confuses me though, are they talking about the yew tree? If so, that could go along with Voldie's "marking him as his equal" with his yew wand, correct? I mean, that was part of the prophecy, so I won't totally dismiss Voldie having something to do with putting that scar on Harry's forehead, though perhaps Lily did put a protective charm on Harry to begin with. On another website : Eihwaz is the axis around which all else revolves and from which all else spins. It contains the mystery of life and death. It is a life giving force which has its roots in the Underworld and death. It provides protection, and can help increase personal power and defense. It suggests the passage and communication between different worlds and layers of reality. This rune embodies the ideal "better not to promise anything than to promise too much and fail", and serves as a reminder of the natural and rightful restrictions that serve a greater good. Eihwaz is the immovable object standing against all irresistable forces. Magically it can be a rune of wisdom when invoked in accessing the mysteries of Yggdrasil. In mythology, Yggdrasil is the tree from which Odin hung to obtain the answers to the mysteries of the runes. This means Eihwaz can be worked to obtain understanding of all mysteries. In divination it can reflect stamina and survival and may be represented by any of the following forces. EIHWAZ UPRIGHT:Survival, strength, reliability, dependability, trustworthiness, enlightenment, endurance, defense, protection, secret or sacred knowledge EIHWAZ MERKSTAVE: Confusion, destruction, dissatisfaction, weakness, vulnerability, untrustworthyness, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, ignorance I would think that the eihwaz upright is what Harry has on his forhead if I am correct, and the fact that it is " It is a life giving force which has its roots in the Underworld and death" has a lot to do with the ancient magic that Harry's mom left for Harry by protecting him and sacrificing herself, which maybe, when Voldie tried to kill Harry, the Eihwaz appeared. Sawsan, sorry for the long post. From naama_gat at hotmail.com Mon Feb 2 15:55:28 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 15:55:28 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90092 The major problem I have with your (Irina's) theory is that it means (as you said in a previous post) that Dumbledore plain and simply lied in his OoP denouement speech. The thing is, if DD lied then, then each and every speech he has made is suspect. You (the reader) can't trust anything he has said, can't take things he has said as facts within the story. BUT, JKR specifically said that she uses DD as a means to convey information to the reader (DD and Hermione). So, as far as the construction of the narrative goes, it would be completely destructive to have DD lie to Harry in such a poignant moment. Irina: > the ONLY way LV could be defeated is if he marked one of the boys > mentioned in the prophecy as "his equal". He found out just enough > to encourage him to take the necessary steps to his own downfall > (ie attack Harry), but not enough to put him on guard. Naama: A prophecy, by its very nature, is a paradoxical thing. LV has, or should have, learned this through experience: the very effort he made to prevent its realization, realized it. DD, as a wise man, wouldn't have meddled in the workings of a prophecy. Unlike LV, he would have known that the wisese thing is to let this destiny realize itself. Irina: > I do not think that good and evil in the books are simple concepts. > The "good" and the "bad" characters are not neatly segregated and > identified. In fact, Harry constantly learns that people are so > complex that they cannot be divided into "good" and "bad". Naama: I agree with the second part of this paragraph, but not the first. I think, in fact, that good and evil are simple concepts in the books. At least, they are simple in the sense that they are absolute - JKR doesn't appear to hold a relative view on morality. I.e., Voldemort and the DEs aren't similar to real world fanatics, who may hold a terrible ideology (in our eyes) but do so in *good* faith. The worst bigots and inquisitors didn't choose evil; they chose good, as defined under their belief system. This is not the case in the Potterverse. The whole point of Voldemort is that he chose evil - as such. Remember, "there is no good and evil, only power and those too weak to seize it" (paraphrase)? This is the ultimate evil (and the difference between him and an evil character like Umbridge) - to completely deny morality. Irina: > I think JKR's writing is sophisticated enough to create characters > and plots that are not black and white but are imbued with moral > dilemmas. And this would be one of those: if James and Lily were > willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the multitudes that > would have been destroyed by LV's continued reign - should DD have > enabled it? Naama: I have a factual problem here: if they were willing to be sacrificed, why bother with the whole Secret Keeper thing? Why put somebody else - a friend of theirs (whether Peter or Sirius) - at risk? Irina: > What if they knew nothing about it - would he be > justified in sacrificing them for the sake of thousands of others > (Coming from a liberal ideological standpoint that each life is > infinitely precious and may not be used as a numbers game, I would > say "no", but minds may differ - a utilitarian perspective would > lead to the opposite view) Naama: If DD had a utilitarian perspective, as you call it, he would have been training Harry rigorously since he was a baby. He appears to have cared enough about Harry (a single, precious life), to avoid putting this load on Harry's back. Which even to DD seems, now, irresponsible. Irina: > > He did have time thereafter to have James and Lily betrayed to > their deaths, knowing > > that Lily would sacrifice herself in a way that would keep Harry > > alive but leave him marked. I doubt the "Mission Impossible" >>team could have brought it off. Naama: I completely agree with Jim that there was no way DD could have known that Lily would sacrifice herself in the way she did. Nor could he have been sure of the effects of such an act. LV was Avada Kedavering people left and right, overcoming powerful wizards and witches. The prophecy doesn't preclude the possiblity that LV will overcome his rival. So, it doesn't even make sense that DD would encourage a duel between LV and baby Harry, even he was as manipulating and cold hearted as you paint him. Naama From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Feb 2 15:19:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 15:19:04 -0000 Subject: worse than a vampire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90093 I've had a horrible thought about Snape and I have two questions to go with it. My idea is that Snape is an animagus: cockroach! In the British versions, does Lupin turn his Boggart-moon into beetles or cockroaches? And does Snape throw a jar of cockroaches or beetles at Harry in the Worst Memory event? Even a generic beetle would be better than a cockroach! Here's what made me think this: page 138 of Prisoner of Azkaban (paperback) Lupin's boggart is a silvery orb: "Forward Neville and finish him off!" said Lupin as the boggart landed on the floor as a cockroach. Crack! Snape was back. I always wondered why Lupin used a cockroach as the funny thing that would help him fight off a boggart. But what if Snape had also tried to become an animagus as a teen and ended up a cockroach, wouldn't Lupin find that funny? It would make sense. It also appears that you may not be able to choose your animal, although I'm not sure. Also, Snape's greasy hair is pretty disgusting, as are cockroaches. He lurks in dark corners. His eyes are beetle black. My apologies if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find it in the archieves. Prove me wrong...Please! Potioncat From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 17:46:35 2004 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (JuHu) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:46:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040202174635.90276.qmail@web40207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90094 --- Steve wrote: > She will sulk and brood, blaming Harry for > everything, taking no > responsibility for her own action, and in a funk of > depression and > minor psychologcal instability, she will vow to take > revenge on him > for ruining her life. In doing so, she will seek out > the only people > who are sympathetic to her cause, and join the Death > Eaters. I have only one quarrel with this theory. How exactly would she join the DEs? We only know of one female DE, and I believe this is a reflection of Voldy's view on women: they aren't competent enough to be an asset to his hostile take-over bid. I can see it now . . . Umbridge finds the secret DE meeting, and taps someone on the shoulder. "Excuse me, I'm looking for the Dark Lord." Goyle looks stupidly around at her, she's wearing her pink cardigan and black velvet bow again. He points toward LV in the center of the group. She strides up to him and simpers, "Hi, can I join you?" LV already has a poor wizard working for him, Wormtail, who has proven to be a liability. I can't see him taking on another incompetent one, much less a failed Hogwarts headmistress. Other than that, I'm gleefully awaiting whatever JKR is going to give Umbridge as her due. Cheers, JuHu __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Mon Feb 2 18:13:01 2004 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:13:01 -0000 Subject: Can Students Switch Houses? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90095 I'm still thinking about the question of which house James, Sirius, and Remus were in, and here's something that might complicate the problem further. In PS/SS, in the night after Harry is sorted, he has a dream about Quirrell' turban telling him he must switch to Slytherin immediately. Well, can the students switch like that? Didn't the Sorting Hat say he never made a mistake? But if students can switch, James or Sirius or Remus might have started in one House and ended up in later years in another. From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 18:21:44 2004 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:21:44 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s and how they're calculated In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90096 "Ali" wrote: I've just bought "New clues to Harry Potter: Book 5, by Galadriel Waters. I confess that I haven't yet really tried to read it all or understand it, but my eyes were immediately drawn to what IMO is a mistake, or at least an assumption dressed up as a fact. Whenever I have read OoP, I have always assumed that the DADA is made up of two parts, the written exam and the practical exam. However, Galadriel Waters states that the "Written exam for a class is worth one OWL;and the pratical exam is worth one OWL; so, each subject is worth two OWLS" p. 109. Now, it is possible that this is how they're calculated, but it seems unlikely. Possible subjects: Divination DADA x 2 Charms x 2 Transfiguration x 2 CoMC x 2 History of Magic Muggle Studies Runes Arithmancy Astrononomy x 2 Potions x 2 Herbology (Apologies if I've forgotten any) The subjects I've multiplied are the subjects which seem to have 2 separate parts. That would mean Harry could theoretically achieve 15 O.W.L.s, 3 more than both Bill and Barty Crouch Junior. ===================================================================== Meri here: I always thought that you got you got one OWL for each passing grade and that some subjects had two exams, a written exam and a practical exam where applicable. For example: Divination - practical exam (reading tea leaves, etc.) DADA - written and practical (theory and actual defense techniques) Charms - written and practical Transfiguration - written and practical CoMC - written and practical History of Magic - written exam (essay questions) Muggle Studies - written exam Runes - written exam Arithmancy - written exam Astrononomy - practical and written exam would be almost the same here Potions - written and practical Herbology - practical By my count, I get sixteen OWLs, and 12 of 16 would be very acceptable. Harry could potentially get 13, and, if that is the normal schedule of exams and classes, then 12 for 13 is excellent. Meri ===================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I have been pondering this myself for a while also. What I have wondered (using the 2 O.W.L.'s per subject when there is 2 parts), what happens when someone does great on the practical, but totally screws up the written exam? or visa-versa? Do they take the average of the two grades? and then give a third O.W.L. with a final and ultimate grade? (say you got an O in practical DADA and a D in the written, how would the person know what there final grade was in DADA?) Or does the practical count for more seeing as that is when you are actually doing the spell/charm or whatever? It just seems like it would open up too many questions if you gave 2 O.W.L.'s for 1 class. I just can't see how that could work. I could see them taking into account BOTH the written and practical parts of the test and issue one ultimate grade(O.W.L.) over both (with a side note on how you did on each), but not a seperate O.W.L. for each. But, hopefully in a year or so, all our little questions will be answered. Or at least we will have a few new ones to ponder. Fred From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Feb 2 19:27:44 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 19:27:44 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: <200006072337.37974.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90097 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > > The first time in OoP that I read Harry complaining about everything he had > done and how it wasn't recognised by others [+eternal ramblings],... he > didn't seem Harry. I know the first explanation is Harry is young, > hormones... but I'd like to left open the possibility of external bad > 'feelings' being poured drop by drop without Harry or the readers noticing > it, I'd like to read a good case of slow, subtly done soul corruption from > the victim's PoV. > Must admit, I hadn't considered this possibility before. The Voldy entity has skills that no other wizard seems to have. Mind-reading, for example. The normal WW way is Legilimens! and from what is reported in OoP between Harry and Snape, the 'victim' is aware of which memories are being accessed. At the climax of PS/SS Voldy seems to read Harry's mind to find out that the Stone is in his pocket, but doesn't cast a spell and Harry doesn't know that his mind is being read. Similarly, again in OoP, Harry doesn't know why he has urges to attack DD until it is explained to him by Dumbledore. But Ginny points out that it is very different to her experience of possession by the Tom!Diary. And the possession in the Ministry seems to be different again - Harry is aware of it but can do nothing, he is being used as a mouth-piece. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that Voldemort is more than just Tom Riddle. Something else is there as well. Something that can enter and control actions and words but not thoughts. If Harry can escape, maybe Tom can too. Kneasy From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 19:48:52 2004 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 19:48:52 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90098 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: Irina: He did have time thereafter to have James and Lily betrayed to their deaths, knowing that Lily would sacrifice herself in a way that would keep Harry alive but leave him marked. I doubt the "Mission Impossible" team could have brought it off. Irina ===================================================================== Naama: I completely agree with Jim that there was no way DD could have known that Lily would sacrifice herself in the way she did. Nor could he have been sure of the effects of such an act. LV was Avada Kedavering people left and right, overcoming powerful wizards and witches. The prophecy doesn't preclude the possiblity that LV will overcome his rival. So, it doesn't even make sense that DD would encourage a duel between LV and baby Harry, even he was as manipulating and cold hearted as you paint him. Naama ===================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I have been thinking about the prophecy a lot for a while now. (page 741 UK & 841 US OotP) "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROCHES....BORN TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM, BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES... AND THE DARK LORD WILL MARK HIM AS HIS EQUAL, BUT HE WILL HAVE POWERS THE DARK LORD WILL KNOW NOT... AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HANDS OF THE OTHER FOR NEITHER CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES... THE ONE WITH POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD WILL BE BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES..." Now I know it is only my opinion, but the two parts that jump out at me are "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROCHES" and "AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HANDS OF THE OTHER". Now my point is this, LV COULD NOT kill Harry, because at THAT TIME, Harry was not able(old enough, powerful enough?) to kill LV. And until Harry DOES have the power/will/ability to kill LV, LV will not be able to kill Harry. Because in the prophecy, "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD" has to be able to kill LV, because the prophcey says "EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HANDS OF THE OTHER". It give BOTH Harry AND LV a chance, not just one or the other. Also, I think the reason in GoF, chap. 36, "The Parting of the Ways", Harry says, "For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes." I think that Dumbledore knows that it is not really Lily's sacrafice that saved Harry (I think it could have made it a lot eaiser for Harry, IE he just gets a scar instead of something worse. Without Lily's sacrafice, Harry could have been hurt much worse but still have lived.) And because LV thinks he has some extra sort of charm protecting him now, and Dumbledore knows he doesn't, this is what I think the "gleam of triumph" in Dumbledores eye was about. But, we will know in a few years, hopefully. Fred From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 16:42:48 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 16:42:48 -0000 Subject: The Lestrange's/Crouch Trial Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90099 When the four people were brought in , the first person mentioned is a 'thickset' man who STARED BLANKLY. The next man was nervous looking, the woman had heavy lidded eyes, and the blond boy kept telling his father he didn't do it. We assume that these people are Bellatrix and (Nervous looking man is her husband), the boy is Crouch-obviously. But, who is the first man, and why is he 'staring blankly'- staring blankly in JKR world means either a memory charm, or the Imperius Curse or perhaps something else-but definitely something wrong with a person who stares blankly. When I read the 4th book the first and second time I was concentrating on Barty Jr., and never even noticed that one of the defendants stared blankly. (Also, in GOF-Death Eaters chapter- LV looks at a place 'large enough for two people to stand- and says the Lestranges should stand there- but they are in Azkaban- those are the only two in Azkaban? We know about Crouch- but who is the fourth person and why does LV not mention how loyal this guy was- if he went to Azkaban too? ) Sirius refers to (In GOF- Padfoot returns)the Lestrange/Crouch trial, and the defendants as people who "talked their way out of Azkaban the first time." If the Lestranges had talked their way out of Azkaban the first time, why would they go to the trouble of trying to find LV, and get caught? Is this just a comment made by someone (Sirius) who doesn't really know what they're talking about? Perhaps the Lestranges didn't really go to the Longbottoms to find LV- but to kill Neville.. Surely, if LV knew that Harry was a potential 'one' - he would've known about Neville as well. He went to Harry's first- and he lost his body. Maybe, his Death Eaters went to the Longbottoms thinking that their master chose the 'wrong' boy- and figured they might be able to bring him back (Find him) if Neville was killed. Secondly, How did the four people get caught? We've seen just how powerful Bellatrix can be- as well as Barty Crouch (Although there is room for suspicion that he perhaps learned his Dark Arts at Azkaban)- either way- the four were caught and held- who do we know that can do that? I think it must've been DD who caught them- but how did he/or if I'm wrong 'they' find out about the Longbottoms in time to actually capture those responsible? And, again, why was the thickset man staring blankly? Is he perhaps a relative of Neville's that needed to be subdued because he knew something he shouldn't have? LizVega From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 18:48:32 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:48:32 -0000 Subject: The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90100 bboy_mn wrote: > Question in two parts, what do you think will happen to Umbridge as > a result of her actions before and at Hogwarts, and what do you hope > will happen to her? LizVega here: I thought it was insane that she just left the castle after her stint in the hospital ward, with zero ramifications for her actions concerning Harry,and the running in the school. If we do ever hear from her again- I think she sounds like the perfect scapegoat for Fudge. Wasn't she his undersecretary before coming to Hogwarts? If the president of the US is in trouble it's not unlikely that he will look to place blame on the VP- is the WW any different? Who knows that she sent the Dementors after Harry? Only the people in her office that night they went to the MOM? Or, does DD know? If DD knows, as he knows everything, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't report that to Fudge. She sent DEMENTORS after a student, and not just any student, but Harry Potter. I think in book 6, Fudge is going to be spending a lot of time trying to keep his job- he'll need to blame somebody, or 'poor information' on somebody. She's his scapegoat. He can say that not only did she send the dementors after Harry- but she also fed him false information- which is why he didn't know that LV was really back. That's what I think will happen.... What do I hope will happen? Everything stated above...plus a nice healthy stay in Azkaban- unfortunately- she'll be meeting some Death Eater's in there won't she? After being disgraced by Fudge, and sent to the clink, it makes sense that she'll go where she's wanted- somewhere 'power' and 'torture' are in the job description. Just my thoughts....but something has to happen to her- the clip clopping just wasn't punishment enough for me. LizVega From robersondd at comcast.net Mon Feb 2 18:57:18 2004 From: robersondd at comcast.net (Debbie Roberson) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:57:18 -0000 Subject: Squib or muggle - who's a late bloomer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90101 lizvega2 wrote: > > I was rereading some random JK interviews, and in one quote she > said > > that someone very late in life (No specific age given), who has > > never shown any ability for magic previously, will be able to do > > magic in very desperate conditions. > > > > I'm sure it's been discussed, but anyone have a thought on who > this > > could be? > The "Mimble Wimble" thread suggests that it might be Vernon Dursley. Though Aunt Petunia comes to my mind as well, given that she seems to know a bit more about the WW than we ever thought she might. I believe that either one is a distinct and likely possibility. I look forward to future revelations on their backstories. Debbie R. From robersondd at comcast.net Mon Feb 2 19:45:44 2004 From: robersondd at comcast.net (Debbie Roberson) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 19:45:44 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90102 Irina wrote: > I think it is also curious that DD knew why Harry had survived > immediately after the Potters' death - that is why he brought Harry > to his aunt's house - he was putting his trust in Lily's blood, > sealing her sacrifice, he says as much in OoP. > I am wondering just how he knew that Lily died to save Harry - DD > wasn't there, there were no witnesses to what happened at the > Potters' house - so how did he know that it was Lily who gave her > life to save Harry (she would not have died otherwise). DD figured > it all out before even seeing Harry's scar - Hagrid was sent to > fetch Harry and bring him to his aunt's house very quickly after > the murders - Muggles didn't even have a chance to get into the > house yet! Either there was some very good guess work and very > quick thinking or DD knew what went down in Godric Hollow! One point that I think is very significant is that approximately A YEAR AND A HALF passed from the night of Trelawney's prophecy to the night Voldemort attacked the Potters in Godric's Hollow. There was enough time for Dumbledore to figure out which parents/children were likely candidates and help them take precautions. Do you think, perhaps, that might be WHY the Potters were in hiding in the first place? Do you think the prophecy might have something to do with WHY the Longbottoms were tortured and ended up in Hospital? I believe that it isn't unreasonable to think that Lily and Dumbledor may well have made a just-in-case contingency plan, so he had some idea what she had planned to protect Harry. I think they could also have had an "alarm" to alert the Order of the Phoenix in the event of an attack. Did Dumbledore set the whole thing up? I doubt it. He wouldn't have been aware of the prophecy until it happened; but I do believe he tried to help both the Potters and the Longbottoms protect their children. Debbie R. From rredordead at aol.com Mon Feb 2 19:59:47 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 19:59:47 -0000 Subject: Hey, Yew/Harry's Scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90103 To Fran and :: Entropy :: If you look back over the past 2 weeks posts, you'll see that I have been debating this idea with Whizbang and Carol. You both raised practically the same ideas we did. If you do a search on Lily and Scar you'll see it all, if you're interested. Cheers Mandy. From rredordead at aol.com Mon Feb 2 20:17:07 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 20:17:07 -0000 Subject: Can Students Switch Houses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90104 Robert Jones wrote: > In PS/SS, in the night after Harry is sorted, he > has a dream about Quirrell' turban telling him he must switch to > Slytherin immediately. Well, can the students switch like that? > Didn't the Sorting Hat say he never made a mistake? But if students can switch, James or Sirius or Remus might have started in one House and ended up in later years in another. Mandy here: In my school in England, yes, you could switch Houses after appealing to the Head boy/girl, then the Head of House, and finally, to the Headmaster himself, but it was extremely rare. Extremely! I never knew anyone who did, or even knew a friend of a friend who did. It was a rumor that a boy had switched years before because of bulling. But it could have been a just a rumor. It was a complicated process and any kid who considered it seemed to have an easier time solving their problem than starting the process to switch houses. It is a bureaucratic nightmare for the teachers so they would do anything to prevent it. In my school it was considered a terrible disgrace to switch houses. Your fellow house members would consider you a traitor of the worst kind and no one, and I mean no-one, would trust you again. Not even your new housemates. Remember this is my experience though, and other schools might be different. However, in reference to the Potterverse, even if Hogwarts has something like my experience, I could see someone like Sirius Black switching without too much difficulty. He was the sort of rebel who could pull it of with out a scratch, and being in such a position of power in the school with James to begin, with I would imagine that the other kids wouldn't dare to question his decision. Cheers Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Mon Feb 2 20:34:03 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 20:34:03 -0000 Subject: The Lestrange's/Crouch Trial and Lexicon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90105 lizvega wrote: > When the four people were brought in , the first person mentioned is a 'thickset' man who STARED BLANKLY. The next man was nervous > looking, the woman had heavy lidded eyes, and the blond boy kept > telling his father he didn't do it. We assume that these people are > Bellatrix and (Nervous looking man is her husband), the boy is > Crouch-obviously. But, who is the first man, and why is he 'staring > blankly'- staring blankly in JKR world means either a memory charm, > or the Imperius Curse or perhaps something else-but definitely > something wrong with a person who stares blankly. Mandy here: It's thought that the two other people besides Bellatrix and Crouch Jr. are her husband Rodolphus Lestrange and his brother Rastaban Lestrange. I don't think we know yet which is Bella's husband though, unless OotP clears it up. I don't have the book on me to check. Either man could be a possibility. The staring blankly is interesting and could point to something being wrong with him. Or he could be just in shock at being arrested. What ever the reason Bellatrix is the only one of the four in control of herself during that scene and not afraid to stand up for what she believes. As a side I noticed that the Lexicon has a note that Bellatrix met Rodolphus at Hogwarts while in Slytherin together! Where in the canon is any of that stated? If someone has a page reference I'd be very grateful. I believe we don't know for certain that Bella, or any of the Black sisters, were in Slytherin. Although it is an educated guess that Bellatrix was. We also don't know that the Lestrange brothers went to Hogwarts do we? They sound French to me and I would think that Beauxbatons would be a better guess for their place of education. Cheers Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Mon Feb 2 20:40:05 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 20:40:05 -0000 Subject: worse than a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90106 > Potioncat wrote: But what if Snape had also tried > to become an animagus as a teen and ended up a cockroach, wouldn't > Lupin find that funny? It would make sense. It also appears that you may not be able to choose your animal, although I'm not sure. > Also, Snape's greasy hair is pretty disgusting, as are cockroaches. He lurks in dark corners. His eyes are beetle black. Mandy here: I had not though of that idea, and although I'm not sure I agree, yet, it's pretty funny. Poor Snape, he tries so hard and just can't win can he? Cheers Mandy From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Mon Feb 2 20:52:40 2004 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 20:52:40 -0000 Subject: worse than a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90107 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: <> > But what if Snape had also tried > to become an animagus as a teen and ended up a cockroach, wouldn't > Lupin find that funny? It would make sense. It also appears that you > may not be able to choose your animal, although I'm not sure. <> > Potioncat JKR *implied* in an interview that you can not pick your animagus http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000- scholastic-chat.htm Question: "If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be?" Reply: "I'd like to be an otter - that's my favourite animal. It would be depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something." Lliannanshe From inky_quill at hotmail.com Mon Feb 2 20:01:56 2004 From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 20:01:56 -0000 Subject: Despised Lackey or Social Equal?: Snape's 'Respectability' Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90108 I'm fairly new at posting, so I hope you'll all forgive me if this question has been raised before. And pardon the long windedness. I was following the recent discussion about Professor Snape's supposed "desire" for the DADA position (Good points all),when a point was raised as to whether or not Lucius Malfoy considered Severus Snape of sufficient social standing to treat as an ally vs. a lackey, and that the way Draco "sucks up" to Snape might indicate his family doesn't "look down on Snape socially". What I've been wondering about?and perhaps those of you familiar with class structure and the British boarding school system could sound in ? where would Snape's position as Head of Slytherin House place him in the social context of Wizarding Britain in general? Ignoring Snape's unpleasant appearance and demeanor, what type of status does a "job" like Head of House confer as opposed to just being a Potions professor/Master? Social prominance or "status" usually derives from a couple different things, which I imagine holds true in Wizarding Britain, too. A) there's the old standby of wealth?either commercial prosperity or land, with land being by far the preferred and respectable source of wealth. B) family lineage: pureblood vs. less pure or muggle born. I assume that within the pureblooded families there is a whole separate hierarchy based on ancient lineage, direct descent, famous magical ancestors, service to the crown/ministry of magic (ie the Ancient House of Black, and the Tom Riddle's reinvention of himself as a "lord") Or should I say three sources of status? There is also: C) amount of magical power. Wealth: We don't know from the books whether Snape has any income beyond what he earns as a potions instructor at Hogwarts (I wonder what the remuneration at such an exclusive school would be like?). He may have additional income derived from being a Potions Master (publication royalties, patents, consultation fees) or an inheritance. Family Background: I tend to agree with whomever said Snape's memories indicated a non-elite background, although I didn't take his spitting at the Quiddith match as proof (spitting + sports just seems to be a guy thing and I took it solely as a sign of spur-of-the- moment intense contempt). Since he was a Death Eater, he surely claims some degree of pure wizardly heritage. I tend to read Snape (his dress, speech patterns, method of teaching, emphysis on respect and obedience) as someone with a chip on his shoulder, who's self-made (or re-invented), who has struggled for what he has and is very much on guard against loosing it, rather than born to wealth and power and easy social connections like the Malfoys. Magical Ability: We've been told Severus Snape is a very powerful wizard, and at a fairly young age?he's not yet forty in a potentially 150+ life span?so we can probably safely assume that he's not yet reached his peak ability. He is also one of an exclusive and limited number of specialists in his field in Britain. Snape lacks the trappings of pretigious power that Lucius Malfoy displays, yet we really don't know how the two compare magically. So taking any combination of the sources of status where does that leave Snape? Since Hogwarts is the only school of its type in wizarding-Britain, am I safe in assuming that means any other magical training would be viewed with suspicion and prejudice? Not quite "the thing"? Wouldn't this increase the prestige of being one of the four Heads of House? Would the Board of Governors have to approve an appointee as Head of House, or would it be solely at Dumbledore's discretion? Or would there be a board within a board composed only of former Slytherins who would have to approve, just as Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs would approve a new Head of thier houses? Or would the other heads or even the Sorting Hat decide in a vacancy? So I wonder. Would a combination of magical abilities, and what must be at least a respectable bloodline (perhaps a bastard branch or tradition of vassalage to a `good' pure blooded family?) plus Head of House be enough to place Severus Snape on equal footing with someone like Lucius Malfoy? Snape is able to project a strong aura of power and intimidation in the books, besides the added impression of residual DE nastiness that Harry and gang know about from his past, but set that aside (and it can be as he was very careful, almost meek, in his dealings with Doris Umbridge). Unaware of any Death Eater connections or Snape's reputation as a cold and nasty character, would someone like Lucius Malfoy or Neville's Grandmother, or Amelia Bones consider Snape of 'respectable' or 'proper' social standing? Or would he only be held in respect by other Slytherins (whose children he is overseeing/training, and even post-Hogwarts he would retain some power as Head of House for things like references and word-of-mouth recommendations)? Regardless of how Lucius and Severus interacted in school or as fellow Death Eaters (or spies), Lucius has a child who is sorted into Snape's House. I would assume that regardless of how the two men personally get along, Lucius would at least feign cordiality while Draco was in school, and somewhat vulnerable to his Head of House's wrath or interference. Consequently the younger Draco would "suck up" knowing that if he could gain his Head of House's favor it would make his Hogwarts career much easier. (I imagine there's a separate course of study for young Slytherins called Manipulation and Self Preservation 101). I don't think we've enough canon evidence to state that Draco believes his father and Snape are `friends' or that he knows that Snape was/is a Death Eater. I agree that there seems to be some form of interactions between Snape and Malfoy, Sr. due to Umbridge's and Sirius' remarks, but I think Lucius has kept the younger Draco isolated from the realities of the Death Eaters(per Draco's speech in the Slytherin common room during the polyjuice adventure in CS). It's more that Snape and Malfoy are fellow Slytherins and part of an "old boys network" that share certain values, which Draco assumes he'll one day take his own place in. Would anyone care to comment? Offer corrections on assumptions? Julie From inky_quill at hotmail.com Mon Feb 2 21:06:50 2004 From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 21:06:50 -0000 Subject: The Lestrange's/Crouch Trial In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > > (Also, in GOF-Death Eaters chapter- LV looks at a place 'large > enough for two people to stand- and says the Lestranges should stand > there- but they are in Azkaban- those are the only two in Azkaban? Not necessarily. I always took Voldemort's trip around the circle as a calculated device to make a point to the surviving Death Eaters. LV is regathering the Death Eaters at the cemetery--both announcing his return and chiding them for their abandonment. "I see you all, whole and healthy, with your powers intact....why did this band of wizards never come to the aid of their master, to whom they swore eternal loyalty." He is making a point about loyalty (and revealing that he knows what they've all been up to in his absence) He rewards-- if you can call it that-- Wormtail, tortures Avery (who basically askes for it), needles Lucius (does he need Lucius' money, social prestige, and influence too much to outright torment like Avery?) for "disappointing" him. Next to Lucius stands the space for the Lestranges who were faithful, who continued on after his 'destruction' trying to find Voldemort--that's why they tortured the Longbottoms. LV is very clear here. The Lestranges are the only ones who sought him in his 'exile' and now are the only ones with an excuse for missing the meeting (OK the two who are dead also have an excuse). I don't think that this excludes there being other Death Eaters in Azkaban, but perhaps none of the Lestranges calibre and loyalty. > Sirius refers to (In GOF- Padfoot returns)the Lestrange/Crouch > trial, and the defendants as people who "talked their way out of > Azkaban the first time." If the Lestranges had talked their way out > of Azkaban the first time, why would they go to the trouble of > trying to find LV, and get caught? Is this just a comment made by > someone (Sirius) who doesn't really know what they're talking about? The Lestranges went to the trouble because they were fanatical believers. I believe that Sirius meant that some Death Eaters -- especially the Lestranges and the other man young Barty was caught with--had come under suspicion before but there hadn't been proof to convict them. We've got two seperate things here. What Harry sees in the Pensive is not the trial but the sentencing. Sirius is recalling the climate of terror. The difficulty in telling who worked for Voldemort and who didn't. He is alluding to the frustration of being unable to prove guilt in court, hence some DEs "talked" their way free and NEVER WENT TO AZKABAN when they should have. If the Lestranges had been sent to prison when they were first suspected, the Longbottoms would not have been attacked. The continuing secret identity of the DEs, and their violence caused the Ministry and Aurors to became increasingly violent and ruthless in return. The public clammored for revenge and punishment, not for judicuous consideration of evidence and protection of plaintiffs' rights by law. A very scary situation. I wonder how many wrongly convicted witches/wizards were sent to Azkaban. Sirius surely wasn't the only one. As for the blank stare, I took it for a numbness, so to speak, shock or disbelief that in just a moment he'll hear his sentence. He has retreated into himself. While one man looked around frantically --- cornered animal type behavior-- and Belletrix was angry and self- righteous, his blank stare was a different type of response to being convicted. The dementors were surrounding them. The choice is Azkaban or the Kiss. Perhaps the blank man had only now realized the reality of what that meant? Julie who really enjoys your posts, lizvega2! From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Mon Feb 2 21:47:09 2004 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 21:47:09 -0000 Subject: The Lestrange's/Crouch Trial and Lexicon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90110 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > Mandy here: > It's thought that the two other people besides Bellatrix and Crouch > Jr. are her husband Rodolphus Lestrange and his brother Rastaban > Lestrange. > > I don't think we know yet which is Bella's husband though, unless > OotP clears it up. I don't have the book on me to check. Either man > could be a possibility. <> OOP does clear this up in Chapter 6, "Bellatrix and her husband Rodolphus came in with Barty Crouch Jr." That would make Rastaban the brother-in-law. <> > As a side I noticed that the Lexicon has a note that Bellatrix met > Rodolphus at Hogwarts while in Slytherin together! Where in the > canon is any of that stated? If someone has a page reference I'd be > very grateful. <> > Cheers Mandy Can you please tell me where you found this on the Lexicon web site. The only error I found was underthe name Lestrange, Rodolphus "Husband of Bellatrix, sentenced to Azkaban along with Bellatrix, her brother Rastaban,. . . " Rastaban is not really her brother but her brother-in-law. Lliannanshe From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 21:54:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 21:54:34 -0000 Subject: James Potter Bio Facts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90111 > Carol: There's also the apparent fact that both James and Sirius hate the Dark Arts (associated with Slytherin) and are chiefly characterized by a kind of reckless courage, a Gryffindor rather than a Slytherin trait. So in the absence of other evidence, I'm inclined to trust that image of James as a Gryffindor quidditch player. It's the closest thing we have to solid evidence at the moment. (There's also Lupin's support of Gryffindor in quidditch, somewhere in PoA.) > Geoff: > I spotted a little piece of canon just now which caught my attention > while looking for something else which seemed relevant to this > discussion. > The fact that she [McGonagall] remembers James as a good player suggests that he > was in her house because she probably wouldn't necesarily recall him > if he had been in a different house. > > There's also a suggestion that she knew him and Lily sufficiently > well to use their first names.... > > McGonagall is rather old-fashioned and tends to use the pupil's > surname or first name plus surname. It is not very often that she > uses merely first names - even on ex-pupils. Perhaps this indicates a > closeness when they were seniors in her house? It's just a > speculative thought. Carol again: One additional bit of support for that idea. We know that Lily was in Gryffindor. When someone asked JKR which house Lily was in, she replied, "Gryffindor, naturally." Since McGonagall regards James and Lily with equal affection and (as you say) uses first names for both of them, it does seem likely that they were both in her house. Not proof, I realize, but I still can't see JKR putting characters she regards with real affection (Sirius and Remus as well as James) in any house other than the one all her other favorites (Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid, Harry, Hermione, and the Weasleys) belonged to. Carol From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Feb 2 22:11:30 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 22:11:30 -0000 Subject: worse than a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I always wondered why Lupin used a cockroach as the funny thing that would help him fight off a boggart. But what if Snape had also tried to become an animagus as a teen and ended up a cockroach, wouldn't Lupin find that funny?<< If Snape could become a cockroach as a teen he would have used this ability to escape the werewolf and the Prank as we know it wouldn't have happened. I have a feeling the silvery orb is a prophecy orb and not the moon at all. " Or did you realize that the boggart turned into the full moon when it saw me?" is, like many other things that Lupin says, equivocal. Someone else suggested that a cockroach would be a far less ominous thing to find in the dark and dusty hall of prophecy. Pippin From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 22:14:16 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 22:14:16 -0000 Subject: Hey, Yew / Harry's Scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > If you look back over the past 2 weeks posts, you'll see that I have > been debating this idea with Whizbang and Carol. Okay, I've looked back on all of the recent threads and posts I could find about Harry's scar. In the interest of clarity, I'll try to sum up the various theories for the scar and what it represents. I won't go into the canon for each of the theories (you'll have to read back a few posts for that!) but they seem to boil down to these: 1. Harry's scar was caused by Voldemort's AK curse. It is in the shape of a lightning bolt, which is what happens when curses fail. The reason for this failure is unknown. 2. Harry's scar is an Eihwaz rune, given to him by Lily some time before Voldemort's visit to Godric Hollow, as protection against attack from Voldemort and the Death Eaters. 3. Harry's Eihwaz scar is a *result* of Lily's protection charm. She gave Harry a protection charm, which was only sealed when she gave her life for Harry. Voldemort then AK'd Harry, but the curse was reflected and the scar resulted from the AK meeting with the protection charm. Have I missed anything? In my opinion, Theory #3 makes the most sense, because it incorporates A. All of the hints JKR seems to be giving us (Lily's charm-friendly wand, Hermione/Luna's rune studies, references to eihwaz runes and yew trees and what they mean), and B. Does not contradict Dumbledore's explanations of what happened that night (he said it was her love that saved him, and we do know from the graveyard scene that this ancient magic probably requires great sacrifice to work -- Peter had to sacrifice his hand!). C. It also helps to explain much of the unexplained of Godric's Hollow (why the AK didn't work, why Harry has this unusual scar, why the house was destroyed). I hope I've summed it all up well. Let me know what I've forgotten and, as they say, fire away! :: Entropy :: From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 2 22:13:34 2004 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 22:13:34 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Despised Lackey or Social Equal?: Snape's 'Respectability' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <401ECB8E.1080602@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90114 Julie wrote: > I tend to read Snape (his dress, speech patterns, method of teaching, > emphysis on respect and obedience) as someone with a chip on his > shoulder, who's self-made (or re-invented), who has struggled for > what he has and is very much on guard against loosing it, rather than > born to wealth and power and easy social connections like the > Malfoys. > So I wonder. Would a combination of magical abilities, and what must > be at least a respectable bloodline (perhaps a bastard branch or > tradition of vassalage to a `good' pure blooded family?) plus Head of > House be enough to place Severus Snape on equal footing with someone > like Lucius Malfoy? > > > Would anyone care to comment? Offer corrections on assumptions? > > Julie > > digger: I think there are few in the WW Lucius Malfoy would regard as equals ;-) Snape's immediate backgound could well be pureblood, yet tainted in some way. I think the glimpses we had of his unhappy homelife as a child help our speculation. His father seemed overbearing and cruel. That would give good precedent for dear Severus' teaching style. Is he just repeating the verbal abuse he received as a child, to his students? So why was his father so overbearing and nasty? I think the idea of a social mis-match between Snape's parents is enough to furnish. If Snape pere or mere were high status and had the audacity to marry beneath them, the aristo family might well have spurned their company, and even 'cut them off without a penny', forcing financial hardship on them. That can be reason enough to cause resentment and spousal cruelty. I think this is more likely than our dear Severus being born on the 'wrong side of the blanket', though that is possible too. So Lucius Malfoy might well acknowledge Snape as being a kind of 'poor cousin' or somesuch. Not an equal, but one who has a trickle of noble blood in his veins. Tainted blood though, and with no financial clout. But our Snape is smart. He is powerful in his wand magic. He is also logical (a rare talent in a wizard). He knows a compendium of curses and hexes right from his first year at Hogwarts. (I can't help suspecting he learnt those the hard way, from Daddy using them at home) This would have earned him respect in the Slytherin Common-Room, and Malfoy would certainly have taken notice of him. I feel the Malfoy Snr/Snape relationship is a kind of patronage. Malfoy is canny and devious. Snape is highly talented and therefore useful. Malfoy encourages Snape to develop his talent for potions. Maybe Malfoy procures Snape some illegal ingredients to brew some dark and dangerous potions. Who else would have brewed Malfoy those poisons he is hiding under his drawing room floor but Snape? If Snape needs money, I'm sure there is a ready black market for all kinds of potions only he can brew. In fact, Snape could probably earn far more than his teachers salary by setting up a lab and shop in Knockturn Alley. But this would not bring him the respectability and recogonition he craves. digger From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Feb 2 22:29:14 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:29:14 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hey, Yew/Harry's Scar Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90115 In a message dated 2/2/2004 6:43:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, Kathy (kking0731 at hotmail.com) writes: Lily didn't leave a visible sign on Harry as it states in SS pg.299 when DD says "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realize that love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign... So how could the scar have appeared?...it wasn't his mother. Her mark was definitely (from this statement) not visible. Voldemort did however "mark" him. ************************************* Sherrie here: It's possible that it might have been a combination of the two - that Lily placed the protection charm on Harry, in such a way that it would only be activated if he were attacked, in which case the rune of protection would appear. Just a thought... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 22:47:45 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 22:47:45 -0000 Subject: clothing in the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90116 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > Jim wrote: > Fudge doesn't like to see wizard kids in jeans and tank tops, or > listening to U2 on the Walkmen their Muggle-born friends gave them > for Christmas. It's a CULTURE WAR! > > Berit replies: > A Muggle football will work nicely at Hogwarts (though, if the other > students are anything like Ron, they just think Muggle sports are > weird; after all the soccer teams on the posters don't even MOVE!), > but I doubt a walkman would work; according to Hermione electrical > appliances go hay-wire because of all the magical protection... :-) I > don't have canon evidence for this, but I suspect a walkman wouldn't > work very well at a wizard's house/property either, because most > wizarding families would use a lot of magic all the time, making > Muggle appliances dysfunctional. Mrs Weasley, for intance, uses magic > all the time to cook food, clean the dishes, you name it. The > Weasleys has an old radio in the kitchen playing wizard music, but my > guess is that a wizard radio works on magic and are not fitted with > plugs or batteries. Mr Weasley would be delighted if they were > though :-) You're right, mostly, but magic can't be that powerful in interfering with Muggle devices, or it would give too much away - I suspect you need a big concentration of magic, like Hogwarts, to make interference. But my point wasn't about walkmen, it was about influence as a human phenomenon. It's actually the simpler things, like clothes and Muggle rrecreation, that would be more likely influential. Somebody must be interested in using their bodies in play, like football; only a select few get to compete at Quidditch in three games a year (that we know of). If there's pickup Quidditch games, we don't hear about them, and we should. > It's not at all in tune with Rowling's > magical world. I see no need of introducing more of the Muggle > world to the magical world; it's perfectly charming and wonderful > as it is! But I guess that makes me just like the "oldfashioned > wizards" who scoff at Muggle stuff :-)) I agree with the sentiment, actually (FWIW, I don't like the designated hitter rule either). It's just human nature that the kids will influence each other. I like patrolling the fantasy/reality border. What if my kids got a Hogwarts letter? What if Hermione gave an interview to the Muggle press? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 23:06:20 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 23:06:20 -0000 Subject: OOP weather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90117 - wrote: The drought can be explained away by the fact that surrey is in the South of England which normally has draught over the summer. Scotland (Hogwarts)is in the very north of the island hence generally colder. > > Geoff: > Actually, Surrey does not /normally/ have a drought. (One of the > driest areas of the UK is East Anglia). The most serious general > droughts were in 1976 and then, there was long spell of fine, dry, > weather in the latter part of the summer of 1994 and then, as OOTP > suggests, there was a long hot summer in 1995 which was fairly wide > spread throughout the UK.I think the references in the book refer to > later in the Autumn when the weather had changed in general. Carol: I'm not British, but I was in England (London and Oxford) for the one and only time in July and August 1994. "Knowing" that England was foggy and rainy, I had lugged along my umbrella. In the five weeks I was there, I used it only once. England was suffering from what it considered a heat wave (almost no rain and temperatures in the 80s Fahrenheit). People were standing on the rim of the fountain in Trafalgar Square trying to cool themselves with the spray. I don't know whether the weather had gone back to normal by September, but the conditions JKR describes in the opening chapters of OoP are exactly as I experienced them during my visit. Carol, who lives in Tucson and knows what heat really is From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 23:17:03 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 23:17:03 -0000 Subject: Question: Baruffio and the buffalo Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90118 Since English is not my mother tongue, I always suspect I'm missing puns and clues in HP. It took me two years to realize there is a pun in "Diagon Alley" . Now, could someone please explain to me (slowly, with diagrams) if there is a pun in: SS/PS, Ch. 10: "Now, don't forget that nice wrist movement we've been practicing!" squeaked Professor Flitwick, perched on top of his pile of books as usual. "Swish and flick, remember, swish and flick. And saying the magic words properly is very important, too ? never forget Wizard Baruffio, who said `s' instead of `f' and found himself on the floor with a buffalo on his chest." I would have thought that the editors got it mixed up as usual and it actually should have written "said `f' instead of `s' ", but what the @$#& is a "bussalo"??? Do we need a Latin expert here? Thanks, Neri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 23:42:51 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 23:42:51 -0000 Subject: Hey! Yew! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90119 Meghan Chalmers-McDonald wrote: EIHWAZ is the symbol for the "Yew tree." I was just reading Voldimort's rebirth sceen when I noticed, this: This seemingly innocent detail is mentioned several times, down to it's leaves, in the telling of Voldimort's rebirth. Entropy responded: 1) Yew trees are evergreens, and can live for an incredibly long time (2,000 [years] or more). The yew tree is held sacred by the Druids; it symbolizes death and rebirth. The yew tree also symbolizes transformation, great age, and reincarnation. Carol: As I wrote about a century ago (actually, I think it was November), I think Harry's and Voldemort's wands are "brothers" in more than their shared Phoenix-feather cores. Yew, an evergreen tree planted in churchyards (or graveyards) as a symbol of rebirth or reincarnation, and holly, an evergreen tree or shrub whose branches are hung as a decoration at Yule or Christmas to symbolize rebirth or resurrection, are variations on the same theme. Voldemort, who seeks immortality through transformation, has a wand of yew. Harry, the Boy Who Lived, has a wand of holly, possibly symbolizing his "rebirth" after surviving the Avada Kedavra curse. Since Harry is the destined "savior" of the WW, the Christian implications of his holly wand are probably significant. Voledmort's more purely pagan yew wand may imply that he is looking in the wrong place for immortality. I don't want to reduce HP to allegory (yew=pagan=bad); (holly=Christian=good), but I do think that the similarities *and* differences between yew and holly have symbolic implications. (As I said in another post, allegory implies a simple on-to-one correspond between a person, place, or object and what it represents, whereas symbols are complex and subject to interpretation: not even the author can tell us exactly what they "mean.") I'm pretty sure, however, that the wood any wand is made of will tell us something about the witch or wizard that wand "chooses," not just Harry and Voldemort but any witch or wizard whose wand we care to investigate. An aside: I'm wondering if "Ollivander" has some connection with olive (wood) wand. Olive branches have long been regarded as emblems (not symbols!) of peace. Might there be some connection between Mr. Ollivander and the process of reconciliation between Slytherin and the other houses or between wizards and other beings that must take place if Voldemort is to be permanently defeated? (There's no point in destroying Voldemort if what he stands for is not also defeated.) Carol From rredordead at aol.com Mon Feb 2 23:47:11 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 23:47:11 -0000 Subject: The Lestrange's/Crouch Trial and Lexicon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90120 Mandy wrote: > > It's thought that the two other people besides Bellatrix and Crouch Jr. are her husband Rodolphus Lestrange and his brother Rastaban Lestrange. I don't think we know yet which is Bella's husband though, unless OotP clears it up. I don't have the book on me to check. Either man could be a possibility. > Lliannanshe wrote: > OOP does clear this up in Chapter 6, "Bellatrix and her husband > Rodolphus came in with Barty Crouch Jr." > That would make Rastaban the brother-in-law. Mandy here: Forgive me my post was badly written, and I realized after I hit send that what I meant was actually something else. What I meant was, do we know which of the two men is Rodolphus (Bella's husband)and which is Rastsban (her brother-in-law)? The thickset man who stared blankly or nervous looking man? I think perhaps the OotP might have descriptions of the two men in either the chapter where Harry looks at their mug-shot in the Daily Prophet, or the battle in the MoM. I can't remember with out my copy of the book. > Lliannanshe wrote: > Can you please tell me where you found this on the Lexicon web site. > The only error I found was underthe name Lestrange, Rodolphus > "Husband of Bellatrix, sentenced to Azkaban along with Bellatrix, her brother Rastaban,. . . " Rastaban is not really her brother but her brother-in-law. Mandy here: I found it in the Lexicon under People (found in the side bar), then under Death Eaters. There is a whole paragraph on Bellatrix and the references I found on her being in Slytherin at Hogwarts and meeting Rodolphus there. Cheers Mandy. From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 00:11:47 2004 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 00:11:47 -0000 Subject: The Lestrange's/Crouch Trial and Lexicon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90121 Mandy wrote: >>As a side I noticed that the Lexicon has a note that Bellatrix met Rodolphus at Hogwarts while in Slytherin together! Where in the canon is any of that stated? If someone has a page reference I'd be very grateful.<< Lliannanshe then wrote: >Can you please tell me where you found this on the Lexicon web site.< KathyK then adds: I believe Mandy was reading here: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/death_eaters.html Mandy also wrote: >>I believe we don't know for certain that Bella, or any of the Black sisters, were in Slytherin. Although it is an educated guess that Bellatrix was. We also don't know that the Lestrange brothers went to Hogwarts do we? They sound French to me and I would think that Beauxbatons would be a better guess for their place of education.<< KathyK, with her copy of GoF in hand replies: According to Sirius not only did Rodolphus Lestrange attend Hogwarts, but he was in Slytherin along with Bellatrix. GoF, Ch 27 "Padfoot Returns" (US ed. pg 531): BEGIN QUOTE "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." Sirius held up his fingers and began ticking off names. "Rosier and Wilkes-they were both killed by Aurors the year before Voldemort fell. The Lestranges-they're a married couple-they're in Azkaban." END QUOTE So Bellatrix and Rodolphus were both at Hogwarts and in Slytherin. I'd consider it a good bet that's where Bellatrix and Rodolphus met- unless they've known one another since before Hogwarts, which is possible. A case could be made that perhaps Rabastan was not in school with them as we have no specific canon stating he was at Hogwarts. I don't think it's much of a stretch to place Narcissa into Slytherin either, as Draco Malfoy mentions to Harry in SS/PS about house placement: SS (US ed. pg 77) Ch. 5 "Diagon Alley": BEGIN QUOTE "Well, no one really knows until they get there, do they, but I know I'll be in Slytherin, all our family have been" END QUOTE As I mentioned in a previous post a couple months ago (message 84369) it's not certain whether or not Draco is referring to all his family or if he's thinking more specifically of the Malfoy family, but I think placing Narcissa into Slytherin is an educated guess based on what we know of her. KathyK, who is liking her haircut ever so much From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 00:21:52 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 00:21:52 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90122 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Roberson" wrote: > There was enough time for Dumbledore to figure out which > parents/children were likely candidates and help them take > precautions. Do you think, perhaps, that might be WHY the Potters > were in hiding in the first place? Of course. Right on! And we haven't heard, but the Longbottoms may have been in hiding, too. I have no doubt that Voldemort would have taken the King Herod solution and killed every possible candidate he could. IOW, if LV had succeeded in killing Harry Potter, he would have immediately hunted down Neville as well. Do you think the prophecy might > have something to do with WHY the Longbottoms were tortured and > ended up in Hospital? That doesn't appear to be the case -- we've heard that the Longbottoms, both Aurors, were tortured for information on LV's possible location (and to gratify Bellatrix's psychosis). Why else would they be tortured, to reveal their son's location? We have to speculate how Dumbledore knew what it was that saved Harry, because we don't know. It's plausible to me that a wizard as wise and powerful as Dumbledore could sense the aura of the ancient natural magic that protected Harry, especially so soon after the event. The scar might have told him, as learned as he is. But I'm guessing. I find it more believable than the notion he set up the deaths of the boy's parents and arranged Lily's sacrifice. How could he ever predict how things would go down? How could he know Voldemort wouldn't just magically set the Potter's house ablaze in the middle of the night, or just sneak in little Harry's bedroom and kill him before his parents had any idea LV was around? The 'Dumbledore arranged it' theory depends not just on DD being capable of being as cold and manipulative as Voldemort himself, but on the entire cast of characters behaving exactly as planned. That's a hard sell. Life is much messier than that. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 00:27:14 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 00:27:14 -0000 Subject: Trevor the Toad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90123 > --- Paula Gaon wrote: > > > > 1) Remember how Umbridge is always being described as looking like > a frog, ... > > Constance Vigilance: > > I think it was just JKR's joke - Umbridge was a toady (meaning one > who kisses up to superiors), so JKR made her look like a toad. > > CV And she also causes "umbridge" (umbrage): offense, hostility, suspicion, etc. The name and the appearance work together to make her loathsome from the moment we meet her--very different from our initial reaction to Trevor, an eleven-year-old boy's most prized possession. I wouldn't be surprised if Trevor turns out to be important, but I doubt that it will have anything to do with Umbrage. BTW, has anyone noticed that Draco Malfoy and his cronies don't seem to have pets (er, familiars)? Or does that eagle owl belong to Draco? (I thought it was his father's.) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 00:45:10 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 00:45:10 -0000 Subject: clothing in the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90124 Potioncat wrote: > My first post here. I've had a hard time picturing the clothes as > discribed in the book. It certainly sounds like they wear robes, > with no street clothes underneath, but it's hard to imagine how > they'd ride brooms and really get around. Carol: It's always seemed off to me that Ron's mother sends her kids sweaters (jumpers) at Christmastime, yet she seems to have no idea what Muggle clothes look like. I also get the idea from the Pensieve scene in which Snape is wearing nothing but underwear under his robe and from the old wizard at the World Cup who likes "a nice breeze around his privates" that wizards and witches don't wear anything except socks, shoes, and underwear under their robes. That would mean that the movies and the illustrator of the books got it wrong: these are close, not open, robes--like a judge's gown or a graduation gown. As for pajamas, which the boys do seem to wear (though Percy, IIRC, wears a nightshirt, as does Snape), maybe Harry started out with an old pair of Dudley's but was allowed to keep the ones that Madam Pomfrey gave him on the various occasions when he was injured. At any rate, the movie version of PoA is way off base in making the kids indistinguishable from Muggles when they're not in class. Carol, who thinks that riding a broom would be extremely uncomfortable no matter what the witch or wizard was wearing. From amani at charter.net Tue Feb 3 00:58:56 2004 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:58:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question: Baruffio and the buffalo References: Message-ID: <008601c3e9f0$e7c86a40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90125 Neri: Since English is not my mother tongue, I always suspect I'm missing puns and clues in HP. It took me two years to realize there is a pun in "Diagon Alley" . Now, could someone please explain to me (slowly, with diagrams) if there is a pun in: SS/PS, Ch. 10: "Now, don't forget that nice wrist movement we've been practicing!" squeaked Professor Flitwick, perched on top of his pile of books as usual. "Swish and flick, remember, swish and flick. And saying the magic words properly is very important, too - never forget Wizard Baruffio, who said `s' instead of `f' and found himself on the floor with a buffalo on his chest." I would have thought that the editors got it mixed up as usual and it actually should have written "said `f' instead of `s' ", but what the @$#& is a "bussalo"??? Do we need a Latin expert here? Taryn: Flitwick is referring to mispronouncing the spell, which we don't know, which PRODUCED the buffalo on Baruffio's chest. The spell probably didn't have "buffalo" in it, he just mis-pronounced the spell and accidently ended up with it. So we don't know what the spell was. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 20:52:12 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 20:52:12 -0000 Subject: If Albus Dumbledore is really Evil...Who is he working with In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "james320152002" wrote: > I have heard a lot of the Dumbledore is evil theories but I wonder if > Dumbledore is really evil who is he working for ? I seriously don't > think it could be Lord Voldemort becuase those two being the greatest > wizards in the world I don't see how the wizarding world would stand > a chance without Dumbledore. What ideas do you guys have ? > > > > James LizVega here: Personally, the theory that Dumbledore is evil sounds like a load of dung to me! We're all grasping at straws waiting for the sixth book- and some people haven't gotten over that 'gleam' in DD's eye from GOF- but the gleam is most likely something ado with Voldemort being able to touch Harry- something DD might consider to be of great benefit for the OOP. Just my opinion- but the theories are getting out there- desparation = half-assed theories- just ask Fudge! From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 00:06:45 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 00:06:45 -0000 Subject: The prophesy...sorry for being boring Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90127 The one with the power to vanquish the DARK LORD. Harry says in OOP- during a clue men see- that the only people he's ever heard call Voldemort the Dark Lord are Death Eaters. Now, I'm not saying that Trelawney is a DE...no no no. But, why did she refer to him this way? I don't have my book with me- but is that what she called him when she made the prediction during Harry's Divination Final? Also, what are the ramifications of using generic terms like, "The one with the power," and "The Dark Lord" ???? Seems open to interpretation.... maybe Dumbledore thought so too. From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Mon Feb 2 21:32:12 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 21:32:12 -0000 Subject: Holly and Yew Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90128 The Eihwaz rune is very interesting to read about while reading about Harry. It is lightening bolt shaped, it represents "strength, reliability, dependability, trustworthiness. Enlightenment, endurance. Defense, protection. The driving force to acquire, providing motivation and a sense of purpose. Indicates that you have set your sights on a reasonable target and can achieve your goals. An honest man who can be relied upon." it also is represented by the Yew Tree, the very wood that Voldie/ Tom's wand is made of. Also, "Eihwaz is the axis around which all else revolves and from which all else spins. It contains the mystery of life and death. It is a life giving force which has its roots in the Underworld and death." which seems very interesting and relevent to the story, as there is a lot about death and rebirth in the series as well as other things listed about the said rune ( i have a bit more about it in message 90090). Eihwaz represents life and rebirth as well as death. THe yew is symbolic of death as well. Holly is the symbol of rebirth, and the only feathers that Fawkes the Pheonix gives for wands are the core of both a yew and a holly, which choose Tom Riddle and Harry respectively. So, after all of this, what can we understand from these connections? I think that there is something to all of this, but I can't quite tie it all together. So what do you guys think the significance of it all is? I just wish I could see the significance of Harry's wand being of holly, other than rebirth? i don't see any runes that symbolize the holly, so i think i am missing something. Sawsan From robersondd at comcast.net Mon Feb 2 21:55:45 2004 From: robersondd at comcast.net (Debbie Roberson) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 21:55:45 -0000 Subject: Deatheaters vs. followers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90129 I've been following the thread on the Lestranges and a thought occurred to me - wasn't it mentioned early on that there were numerous devotees to Voldemort and that the Deatheaters (those marked anyway) were his "inner circle" of followers - the elite, if you will. Or is it that there were followers, Deatheaters, and then the elite circle of Deatheaters that bore the mark? If that were the case, then perhaps only the inner circle would've been called to be present at the cemetary. Debbie R. (who is just musing and hasn't gone back to the books for canon references yet) From d.marchel at comcast.net Mon Feb 2 23:33:48 2004 From: d.marchel at comcast.net (Dysis) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 23:33:48 -0000 Subject: Hey, Yew/Harry's Scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90130 Kathy wrote: > Lily didn't leave a visible sign on Harry as it states in SS pg.299 when DD > says "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot > understand, it is love. He didn't realize that love as powerful as your > mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign... So how > could the scar have appeared?...it wasn't his mother. Her mark was definitely > (from this statement) not visible. Voldemort did however "mark" him. Dysis: This would be true, but DD mentions that Harry is also protected by an "ancient magic" that LV "has neglected" (or something to that effect; I don't have my books with me ^^;;). Lily might have cast the special spell on Harry, in the form of an Eihwaz rune. The rune protects against dark magic. It may not have been visible at first, but after LV's spell reflected off of Harry, then it became visible - - as a scar, of course. From d.marchel at comcast.net Mon Feb 2 21:24:59 2004 From: d.marchel at comcast.net (Dysis) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 21:24:59 -0000 Subject: Colin's camera? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90131 I know I'm taking this back a few books, and that this has probably been mentioned before, but how does Colin's camera work in Hogwarts? No electrical things are supposed to work there, and Colin had an electrical, Muggle camera. A friend proposed to charm his pictures into moving, so I'm guessing that the camera would have to be a Muggle one. I've always thought this was a contradiction, but never really bothered to post it. Maybe it's just a Flint. Any suggestions? From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Feb 3 01:46:08 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:46:08 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colin's camera? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <401F9810.6614.10855C3@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 90132 On 2 Feb 2004 at 21:24, Dysis wrote: > I know I'm taking this back a few books, and that this has probably > been mentioned before, but how does Colin's camera work in Hogwarts? > No electrical things are supposed to work there, and Colin had an > electrical, Muggle camera. A friend proposed to charm his pictures > into moving, so I'm guessing that the camera would have to be a > Muggle one. I've always thought this was a contradiction, but never > really bothered to post it. Maybe it's just a Flint. Any suggestions? Who said his camera was electrical? Plenty of normal Muggle camera's aren't electrical, and I can't recall anything in the book that indicates Colin has more than a basic camera. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 02:09:35 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 02:09:35 -0000 Subject: Hey, Yew/Harry's Scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90133 > Sawsan here.> > I looked up the eihwaz (sp?) rune on the net. > > http://www.bewitchingways.com/runes/eihwaz.htm > > > EIHWAZ UPRIGHT:Survival, strength, reliability, dependability, > trustworthiness, enlightenment, endurance, defense, protection, secret > I would think that the eihwaz upright is what Harry has on his > forhead if I am correct, and the fact that it is " It is a life giving > force which has its roots in the Underworld and death" has a lot to do > with the ancient magic that Harry's mom left for Harry by protecting > him and sacrificing herself, which maybe, when Voldie tried to kill > Harry, the Eihwaz appeared. > Thanks for the information. I happen to think that you're right that the Eihwaz rune, meaning protection and so on, appeared on Harry's forehead when LV's curse hit Harry as the result of the "ancient magic" involved with her sacrifice. What I want to say here is a new point, at least for me: Normally the Avada Kedavra leaves the victim unmarked; Tom Riddle's family look as if they died of fright, poor Cedric looks slightly surprised, but the curse doesn't blast a hole through them or mark them in any way. Harry alone is marked. The curse ricohets off his forehead onto Voldemort, who also suffers in a unique way, losing his body when the normal reaction is to lose the spirit (die) with the body completely intact. Voldemort survived because of pre-existing magic, transformative spells he had performed on himself. Harry also survived through pre-existing magic (either his mother's self-sacrifice alone or a protective charm she placed on him). Which of them caused the scar to appear? Is it merely the accidental marking of Harry as Voldemort's equal, Eihwaz-shaped because of the association of yew with the rune, or did it appear the second the curse struck Harry as a result of protective magic (also associated with the rune), shielding him and deflecting the curse onto Voldemort? Or both? Carol, who swore she was through with this thread but can't seem to let it go. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 02:25:33 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 02:25:33 -0000 Subject: worse than a vampire and Lupin's boggart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90134 -"potioncat" wrote: > > > I always wondered why Lupin used a cockroach as the funny > thing that would help him fight off a boggart. But what if Snape > had also tried to become an animagus as a teen and ended up > a cockroach, wouldn't Lupin find that funny?<< > > If Snape could become a cockroach as a teen he would have > used this ability to escape the werewolf and the Prank as we > know it wouldn't have happened. > > I have a feeling the silvery orb is a prophecy orb and not the > moon at all. " Or did you realize that the boggart turned into the > full moon when it saw me?" is, like many other things that Lupin > says, equivocal. > > Someone else suggested that a cockroach would be a far less > ominous thing to find in the dark and dusty hall of prophecy. Thank you, Pippin! As you know, I really like Snape (faults and all) and the idea of his being a cockroach animagus is simply revolting. It would ruin the books for me forever, far more than your vampire theory. But you're certainly right. If he could turn into a cockroach (or a bat, or any other kind of animal) he could have viewed werewolf!Lupin in perfect safety. I've always thought that turning the boggart into a cockroach is his way of making his own boggart ridiculous. As for Lupin's boggart not being the full moon, I've wondered about that, too. Not only does Lavender refer to it as a crystal ball after the boggart lesson, I seem to recall a scene in which Sybil Trelawney offers to read Lupin's future and he runs off in the opposite direction. (If I didn't imagine this scene, it would have to be in PoA.) But his words to Hermione in the Shrieking Shack seem to indicate that it really is a full moon. And what would a werewolf fear more than the moon that would reveal his true identity? Carol From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 02:32:37 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 02:32:37 -0000 Subject: clothing in the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90135 Potioncat: > > My first post here. I've had a hard time picturing the clothes as > > discribed in the book. It certainly sounds like they wear robes, > > with no street clothes underneath, but it's hard to imagine how > > they'd ride brooms and really get around. > Carol replied: > It's always seemed off to me that Ron's mother sends her kids sweaters > (jumpers) at Christmastime, yet she seems to have no idea what Muggle > clothes look like. I also get the idea from the Pensieve scene in > which Snape is wearing nothing but underwear under his robe and from > the old wizard at the World Cup who likes "a nice breeze around his > privates" that wizards and witches don't wear anything except socks, > shoes, and underwear under their robes. That would mean that the > movies and the illustrator of the books got it wrong: these are close, > not open, robes--like a judge's gown or a graduation gown. As for > pajamas, which the boys do seem to wear (though Percy, IIRC, wears a > nightshirt, as does Snape), maybe Harry started out with an old pair > of Dudley's but was allowed to keep the ones that Madam Pomfrey gave > him on the various occasions when he was injured. > > At any rate, the movie version of PoA is way off base in making the > kids indistinguishable from Muggles when they're not in class. > > Carol, who thinks that riding a broom would be extremely uncomfortable > no matter what the witch or wizard was wearing. Now Ginger: I just figure that the adults have trouble more as a matter of fashion. I'm sure they know about shirts and pants etc. It's just which ones to wear! Imagine you had only the clothes you wore in high school. (Leg warmers, anyone?) Given the wizard life span, styles would change even more. Poor Archie has probably been out of the Muggle fashion loop for so long, he doesn't even remember. Hence the random shopping. I get a giggle out of thinking of him going into the Muggle shop in the first place! Jumpers don't really go out of style. Maybe the design, but what do I know? I hate shopping. Molly could have learned to make them at Hogwarts from a Muggle friend who knitted, and hasn't changed the pattern. Maybe that's why the kids groan at them. As to the broom-riding, in QA there's a nice illustration in chapter 9 showing the cushioning charm. I bet that helps a lot. Oddly enough, in chapter 10, there's an illustration of the Starfish and Stick in which the wizard seems to have a slit up the side of the robe. Talk about a healty breeze! Ginger, shuddering at the thought of Arthur in bell bottoms and a Nehru jacket. It could have happened. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 02:46:21 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 02:46:21 -0000 Subject: Squib or muggle - who's a late bloomer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90136 lizvega2 wrote: I was rereading some random JK interviews, and in one quote she said that someone very late in life (No specific age given), who has never shown any ability for magic previously, will be able to do magic in very desperate conditions. I'm sure it's been discussed, but anyone have a thought on who this could be? Debbie R responded: > The "Mimble Wimble" thread suggests that it might be Vernon Dursley. > Though Aunt Petunia comes to my mind as well, given that she seems to > know a bit more about the WW than we ever thought she might. I > believe that either one is a distinct and likely possibility. I look > forward to future revelations on their backstories. Carol: If the List Elves will forgive me a short post, we've recently gone through this topic at least twice. The prime candidates are Filch and Mrs. Figg, both squibs (and both considerably older than the Dursleys). Muggles (including all of the Dursleys) are nonmagical people, by definition unable to become witches or wizards at any point in their lives. Sorry I don't have time to look up the relevant posts, but you can probably find the Petunia and Mrs. Figg threads easily enough by looking at the Message Index for the last few weeks even if the Search function is still acting up. Carol, who is trying to catch up and finding it difficult to lurk From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 06:17:47 2004 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 06:17:47 -0000 Subject: The prophesy...sorry for being boring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90137 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > Harry says in OOP- during a clue men see- that the only people > he's ever heard call Voldemort the Dark Lord are Death Eaters. > > Now, I'm not saying that Trelawney is a DE...no no no. > > But, why did she refer to him this way? > Also, what are the ramifications of using generic terms like, "The > one with the power," and "The Dark Lord" ???? > > Seems open to interpretation.... maybe Dumbledore thought so too. ~lizvega2 Whizbang here: I love "a clue men see." Is that yours? I'm not sure it's Trelawney speaking when these prophesies are delivered. It doesn't sound like her voice and she seems unaware of them. So is she channeling someone else? And generic terms have all kinds of possiblilities. Maybe Voldemort isn't the Dark Lord. Is he possessed by some entity that is? Has this entity possessed others in the past? As for the "one with the power," my feeling is that there were enough "identifying features" as Dumbledore called them, to pinpoint the one who was born with the power. True, Dumbledore had to wait for all the identifying features to manifest in order to know for certain which boy the prophesy spoke of, as there was only one with the power who approached, not a couple of possibilities. Just because it wasn't known for sure which boy was the one in the prophesy, doesn't mean it could have been either. As it was Harry, it was always and only Harry. ~Whizbang From Calimora at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 07:46:57 2004 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Calimora at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:46:57 -0000 Subject: Colin's camera? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90138 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dysis" wrote: > I know I'm taking this back a few books, and that this has probably > been mentioned before, but how does Colin's camera work in Hogwarts? > No electrical things are supposed to work there, and Colin had an > electrical, Muggle camera. A friend proposed to charm his pictures > into moving, so I'm guessing that the camera would have to be a > Muggle one. I've always thought this was a contradiction, but never > really bothered to post it. Maybe it's just a Flint. Any suggestions? I think that this is a flint, as modern cameras on batteries, which wouldn't work in Hogwarts. The movie version solves this with an old flash pan camera which doesn't involve electricity. On one of these cameras it's the flash ignition of a phospherous compound and the direct exposure of a photosensitive plate that captures the image. I'm fairly certain that JKR didn't intend for Colin to have an antique like this as the books state that developing the *film* in the proper potions causes the images to move. The ancient not electric cameras didn't have film per se, they had single shot slates. ~Calimora (Wow, it's been a while) From Calimora at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 07:55:57 2004 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Calimora at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:55:57 -0000 Subject: worse than a vampire and Lupin's boggart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90139 > And what would a werewolf fear > more than the moon that would reveal his true identity? > > Carol Perhaps the crystal ball that could(did) reveal his future? McGonagall's comments about Sybil imply that there are a few genuinely talented seers out there. Perhaps the Divination class wasn't always rubish. ~Calimora From naama_gat at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 08:01:53 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 08:01:53 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90140 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" > > > I have been thinking about the prophecy a lot for a while now. > (page 741 UK & 841 US OotP) > "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROCHES....BORN > TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM, BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH > DIES... AND THE DARK LORD WILL MARK HIM AS HIS EQUAL, BUT HE WILL > HAVE POWERS THE DARK LORD WILL KNOW NOT... AND EITHER MUST DIE AT > THE HANDS OF THE OTHER FOR NEITHER CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER > SURVIVES... THE ONE WITH POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD WILL BE > BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES..." > > Now I know it is only my opinion, but the two parts that jump out at > me are "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROCHES" > and "AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HANDS OF THE OTHER". > Now my point is this, LV COULD NOT kill Harry, because at THAT TIME, Harry was not able(old enough, powerful enough?) to kill LV. > And until Harry DOES have the power/will/ability to kill LV, LV > will not be able to kill Harry. > Because in the prophecy, "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE > DARK LORD" has to be able to kill LV, because the prophcey says > "EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HANDS OF THE OTHER". It give BOTH Harry AND > LV a chance, not just one or the other. I'd like to point out that "the one with the power to.." doesn't necessarily mean "the one who can...". It depends on how you interpret 'power.' It can be viewed as a potentiality, rather than as an active force. E.g., Harry had always had the power to produce a Patronus, but was not always able to do so (because he lacked the knowledge, he lacked the self confidence, etc.). In that case, baby Harry was vulnerable, since of course he couldn't have vanquished Voldemort then. That, of course, was what Voldemort was hoping for - to eliminate his mortal enemy before he posed a real threat to him. The fact that it didn't work out, doesn't mean that it categorically *couldn't* have worked out. > > Also, I think the reason in GoF, chap. 36, "The Parting of the > Ways", Harry says, "For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a > gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes." > I think that Dumbledore knows that it is not really Lily's sacrafice > that saved Harry (I think it could have made it a lot eaiser for > Harry, IE he just gets a scar instead of something worse. Without > Lily's sacrafice, Harry could have been hurt much worse but still > have lived.) On what do you base the assertion that it wasn't Lily's sacrifice that saved Harry? Naama From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Feb 3 08:07:40 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:07:40 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colin's camera? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <401FF17C.21581.265AF87@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 90141 On 3 Feb 2004 at 7:46, Calimora at yahoo.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dysis" wrote: > I think that this is a flint, as modern cameras on batteries, which > wouldn't work in Hogwarts. The movie version solves this with an old > flash pan camera which doesn't involve electricity. On one of these > cameras it's the flash ignition of a phospherous compound and the > direct exposure of a photosensitive plate that captures the image. > I'm fairly certain that JKR didn't intend for Colin to have an > antique like this as the books state that developing the *film* in > the proper potions causes the images to move. The ancient not > electric cameras didn't have film per se, they had single shot > slates. Not so. I have a camera purchased for school (media studies class) in 1990. It was a fairly cheap camera - the minimum I needed to take photos with for my class. It is not electrically powered. Yes, it has an electric flash and if I want to use that I need to put batteries in it - but for basic operation it does not use electricity at all - I haven't had batteries in it since about 1990 - and I still use it occasionally. It's a Hanimex 35es - except mine is black, http://www.ozcamera.com/photo%207/706.jpg shows it. A fairly modern camera doesn't need to be electrical. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Feb 3 10:11:42 2004 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 05:11:42 EST Subject: Despised Lackey or Social Equal?: Snape's 'Respectability' Message-ID: <1e5.18a94e29.2d50cdde@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90142 Julie: > What I've been wondering about?and perhaps those of you > familiar with class structure and the British boarding school system > could sound in ? where would Snape's position as Head of Slytherin > House place him in the social context of Wizarding Britain in > general? Ignoring Snape's unpleasant appearance and demeanor, what > type of status does a "job" like Head of House confer as opposed to > just being a Potions professor/Master? Eloise: What a very good question. I'm not sure that it's really possible to answer it by analogy with the real world. In the first place, we know of only one wizarding school in Britain, Hogwarts. We know (or believe thanks to Hermione) that as a school it is of very high status internationally. What we *don't* know, however, is how the status of being employed there fits into the WW mentality. Teachers, at least school teachers, must be few of a kind in the WW. Are they therefore celebrities or oddballs? Or simply nonentities? Hogwarts and the WW do to an extent seem to be locked into a somewhat Victorian time warp. Back in those days, teachers at boarding schools, would obviously come from among the educated classes. They would themselves have been privately educated, meaning that they came from families with some means. OTOH, it was very much the sort of career that would (I think) be undertaken by a younger brother, the one not going to inherit. I guess it was probably (I confess, I'm guessing here as it's not a subject I've ever seen discussed) the upper middle class equivalent of an upper class younger son going into the clergy. Think Nicholas Nickleby where our hero, fallen on hard times and destitute, takes on a teaching position. Learning itself was highly prized on Victorian times and prominent academics could become celebrities. However, I'm not at all sure that that sort of social cachet attached itself to the humble schoolmaster. So Hogwarts, as so much of JKR's world is for me a bit of an anomaly, an unanswered question. *But* you bring up another element here. Snape is not just any old teacher, he is *Head of Slytherin House*. Again, this really has no real world equivalent. It seems that the whole of the educated wizarding population of Britain (pace those who believe there *are* other wizarding schools - and in fact I think this is still consonant with the views of those who think that Hogwarts has other "campuses") were divided at the age of 11 into one of the four houses and that this division seems to be *much* more important that the dividing into houses which happens in a RL school*. This is of course, partly a result of the fact that the wizarding population is relatively small and all apparently educated at the same school, so that what might be relatively trivial in RL terms ends (most people you meet in adult life won't have been to your school and won't care a fig what house you were in) ends up being something which everyone you meet understands and is an instant means by which they can categorise you. One can imagine being at a party and the opening gambit not being "What do you do?" but "Which house were you in?" The house question is even more potent because the division is not random. Wizards do not become loyal to their house simply because of an artificial division, they have a much deeper loyalty to it because their house says something deep about their own nature and therefore they might be expected to have and even greater instinctive loyalty to members of their own house. At this point I was going to say something about houses running in families, but this is probably irrelevant. The Sorting Hat is quite capable of placing different members of the same family into different houses. In Public Schools at least, there is a tradition (I'm not sure that it's universal) of always placing family members over generations in the same house. But yes. I think that being Head of Slytherin *should* carry with it some status and this is probably recognised by the Malfoys. Julie: > Wealth: We don't know from the books whether Snape has any > income beyond what he earns as a potions instructor at Hogwarts (I > wonder what the remuneration at such an exclusive school would be > like?). He may have additional income derived from being a Potions > Master (publication royalties, patents, consultation fees) or an > inheritance Eloise: No. We know nothing and I would guess that in any case he lives a fairly frugal life, allowing for investment in exotic Potions ingredients, that is. We have no idea what the remuneration might be. Is it pretty poor, as one would expect for a teacher, or *is* it a job of high prestige? (As an aside, I wonder if we can glean anything from Lockhart? Just why did *he* want the job?) Regarding the Potions Master suggestion, I take it that you are regarding this as being a title of significance? This is one of those things which British readers tend to gloss over. "Master" is a normal way of referring to a school teacher over here. Just *why* it only seems to be used in reference to Snape, I don't know, but I would refer to McGonagall similarly as "the Transfiguration mistress" or Flitwick as the "Charms master". It's actually JKR's use of "professor" which is anomalous, unless we again draw 19th century parallels, when this becomes just another word for a school teacher Maybe it use of "Potions Master" *does* have significance, but it certainly doesn't leap off the page to one used to British school terminology. Julie: > Family Background: I tend to agree with whomever said Snape's > memories indicated a non-elite background, although I didn't take his > spitting at the Quiddith match as proof (spitting + sports just seems > to be a guy thing and I took it solely as a sign of spur-of-the- > moment intense contempt). Since he was a Death Eater, he surely > claims some degree of pure wizardly heritage. Eloise: I always envisaged him as coming form a pretty upper class background, myself. Part of the reason for that was that I always thought we were meant to see something of Draco in him. Not an exact parallel, but I've always believed that to an extent he identifies with the boy and goes out of his way to treat him in the way he wasn't treated when he himself was at Hogwarts: that he favours Draco, to somehow make up for deficiencies in his own childhood. But class and money don't always equate. It's been suggested in the past that the Weasleys are in fact an upper class family fallen on hard times. Julie: > > I tend to read Snape (his dress, speech patterns, method of teaching, > emphysis on respect and obedience) as someone with a chip on his > shoulder, who's self-made (or re-invented), who has struggled for > what he has and is very much on guard against loosing it, rather than > born to wealth and power and easy social connections like the > Malfoys. > Eloise: Well, he's certainly struggled. It seems very clear that his family background was less than ideal, both in terms of relationships and material comfort. And of course, he *has* reinvented himself, from ex-DE to Dumbledore's right hand man. I've written a lot in the past about why I believe Snape is like he is. I think a lot of the chip is to do with Harry, a lot to do with the fact that so much of what he has done has been in secret and has necessarily gone unrecognised. We don't really know about his social connections (although most of his friends from the past seem to be dead or, at least until OoP, in Azkaban). I don't think he's had any opportunity to pursue any social connections much since the time he joined the DE's. Julie: > Magical Ability: We've been told Severus Snape is a very powerful > wizard, and at a fairly young age?he's not yet forty in a potentially > 150+ life span?so we can probably safely assume that he's not yet > reached his peak ability. He is also one of an exclusive and limited > number of specialists in his field in Britain. Snape lacks the > trappings of pretigious power that Lucius Malfoy displays, yet we > really don't know how the two compare magically. Eloise: No, we don't (though I'd put my money on Severus any day). And we don't know how many people are aware of his ability, either. He specialises in a rather unshowy and apparently undervalued field of magic. Julie: > So taking any combination of the sources of status where does that > leave Snape? Eloise: Frustrated, I think. ;-) Julie: > Since Hogwarts is the only school of its type in wizarding-Britain, > am I safe in assuming that means any other magical training would be > viewed with suspicion and prejudice? Not quite "the thing"? Eloise: If it exists, I'd say yes. Julie: > Wouldn't this increase the prestige of being one of the four > Heads of House? Would the Board of Governors have to approve an > appointee as Head of House, or would it be solely at Dumbledore's > discretion? Or would there be a board within a board composed only of > former Slytherins who would have to approve, just as Ravenclaws or > Hufflepuffs would approve a new Head of thier houses? Or would the > other heads or even the Sorting Hat decide in a vacancy? Eloise: More good questions. I think that the Board of Governors probably *would* have to approve. I think they'd probably have to approve of any appointee, in fact, although I'd assume that they generally go with Dumbledore's recommendation. Of course, we don't actually know if there *is* another Slytherin teacher at Hogwarts, do we? Given Dumbledore's character, I suspect that although not impossible (because he is not prejudiced), it is unlikely. Although some of his appointments do leave that open to question. He doesn't seem *terribly* worried about some of the teaching that goes on. However when we look at his "bad" teachers, aside from DADA, we have Trelawney, whom he presumably employed because of the prophecy (and what a disappointment *she* must have turned out to be!), Hagrid, whom he has personal reasons to employ and Binns who presumably won't go away. I think that Snape is at Hogwarts because that is exactly where Dumbledore wants him. Actually, a thought just occurs. If Dumbledore didn't appoint Snape to DADA because he thought it would bring out the worst in him (*if* that's the reason), then what exactly did he think making him Head of Slytherin House would do for him? But perhaps it's that he *does* understand him so well. Here is one place where he can have the recognition he so craves and in a pretty public form. I digressed. I also think that Lucius would support Snape as Head of House because he either knows or suspects that he may be a fellow DE or be sympathetic to the cause. I don't think that's ever been made clear. Julie: > So I wonder. Would a combination of magical abilities, and what must > be at least a respectable bloodline (perhaps a bastard branch or > tradition of vassalage to a `good' pure blooded family?) plus Head of > House be enough to place Severus Snape on equal footing with someone > like Lucius Malfoy? Eloise: I don't know. I think there are still too many imponderables. As I say, blood and money don't always go together and for the Malfoys, at least Lucius, I'm sure that blood would be the most important. So if Snape is from a respectable, purebloodline and he's apparently not betraying that inheritance, then I think that Lucius would treat him pretty much as an equal on that level. However even within that parity of social standing, money or the lack of it would play a part. For instance, regarding marriage, then I would expect Lucius to want his family to marry into other wealthy pure blood families, rather than into poor ones (unless there was a good political reason for it). I couldn't see Severus being Lucius' first choice to marry his (notional) sister, for instance, if a wealthier wizard with similar credentials came along. I think that basically the two of them would treat each other with the utmost respect and caution. I think their mutual history of which Snape definitely knows and Lucius might either know or else suspect is more important to their relationship than their respective positions in society. Julie: > Snape is able to project a strong aura of power and intimidation in > the books, besides the added impression of residual DE nastiness that > Harry and gang know about from his past, but set that aside (and it > can be as he was very careful, almost meek, in his dealings with > Doris Umbridge). Unaware of any Death Eater connections or Snape's > reputation as a cold and nasty character, would someone like Lucius > Malfoy or Neville's Grandmother, or Amelia Bones consider Snape > of 'respectable' or 'proper' social standing? Or would he only be > held in respect by other Slytherins (whose children he is > overseeing/training, and even post-Hogwarts he would retain some > power as Head of House for things like references and word-of-mouth > recommendations)? Eloise: I would imagine that some non-Slytherins would hold him in a degree of suspicion as anti-Slytherin prejudice seems fairly strong among those from other houses, especially as a result of the last Voldemort war. Someone like Fudge would certainly hold him as respectable (he did until he saw the Dark Mark). However these things are not mutually exclusive. We can regard someone to be of "proper social standing" and give them public respect whilst still disliking or despising them personally. Look at Mr Borgin's reaction to Lucius. He obviously wouldn't cross him and in a social situation, as face to face, no doubt would treat him with the utmost respect. But his personal feelings cut across any social respect or recognition that he gives him. I would think that the fact that he was employed in a highly responsible position by Dumbledore would give pause for thought (at least up until the time when people started to think that Dumbledore was losing his grip). Neville's grandmother, I am sure, would respect him for that reason if for no other, as Molly does. But yes. He is a teacher at a world-class wizarding school and head of house. That gives him social respectability (if not status), whatever anyone's personal feelings. Julie: >Regardless of how Lucius and Severus interacted in school or as > fellow Death Eaters (or spies), Lucius has a child who is sorted into > Snape's House. I would assume that regardless of how the two men > personally get along, Lucius would at least feign cordiality while > Draco was in school, and somewhat vulnerable to his Head of > House's wrath or interference. Eloise: Oh definitely. And Snape's treatment of Draco surely has something to do with the impression he wants to convey to Lucius. Julie: > Consequently the younger Draco would "suck up" knowing that if he > could gain his Head of House's favor it would make his Hogwarts > career much easier. (I imagine there's a separate course of study > for young Slytherins called Manipulation and Self Preservation 101). Definitely. Julie: > I don't think we've enough canon evidence to state that Draco > believes his father and Snape are `friends' or that he knows that > Snape was/is a Death Eater. I agree that there seems to be some form > of interactions between Snape and Malfoy, Sr. due to Umbridge's and > Sirius' remarks, but I think Lucius has kept the younger Draco > isolated from the realities of the Death Eaters(per Draco's speech in > the Slytherin common room during the polyjuice adventure in CS). It's > more that Snape and Malfoy are fellow Slytherins and part of an "old > boys network" that share certain values, which Draco assumes he'll > one day take his own place in. Eloise: I think this is spot on regarding Draco. What exactly Snape and Lucius know about their respective activities, though, I'm not at all sure. > Would anyone care to comment? Offer corrections on assumptions? I'm not at all sure. Thank you for a most thought-provoking post. ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Feb 3 10:41:09 2004 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 05:41:09 EST Subject: Lestrange (was:Re: The Lestrange's/Crouch Trial and Lexicon) Message-ID: <61.3a9144da.2d50d4c5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90143 > I believe we don't know for certain that Bella, or any of the Black > sisters, were in Slytherin. Although it is an educated guess that > Bellatrix was. We also don't know that the Lestrange brothers went > to Hogwarts do we? They sound French to me and I would think that > Beauxbatons would be a better guess for their place of education. I know this point has been answered already, but I just wanted to go off at a tangent about names. The best known Mrs Lestrange in literature is (or at least was!) a character in Agatha Christie's 'Murder at the Vicarage'. Thie murder victim in this book was one *Lucius* Prothero. Perhaps coincidence. Perhaps a suggestion of JKR's recreational reading. In either case, both names with a British literary precedent. Malfoy itself, of course, is also a name of French origin. There may be some hint of JKR wishing to give a feeling of very old aristocratic names (dating back to the time of the Conquest) to some of her pureblood families. ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 3 11:09:24 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 11:09:24 -0000 Subject: Snape and Draco (Was: Despised Lackey or Social Equal?) In-Reply-To: <1e5.18a94e29.2d50cdde@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90145 Eloise wrote: << I always envisaged [Snape] as coming form a pretty upper class background, myself. Part of the reason for that was that I always thought we were meant to see something of Draco in him. Not an exact parallel, but I've always believed that to an extent he identifies with the boy and goes out of his way to treat him in the way he wasn't treated when he himself was at Hogwarts: that he favours Draco, to somehow make up for deficiencies in his own childhood.>> Sigune muses: The Draco/Snape relationship has puzzled me a lot. Unlike you I cannot at all imagine Snape identifying with Draco. Malfoy Jr may have a certain talent for potion-making, but apart from that... Draco strikes me as much too stupid (sorry Draco fans) for Snape to be able to really respect him or care for him. Snape is very secretive and discrete; he berates Harry for flaunting his emotions and stuff - well, Draco is even worse than Harry in that respect, isn't he? He seems to me to be the greatest danger to his father's reputation also. Imagine Lucius Malfoy going through all the trouble of clearing his name after LV's fall, and Dunderhead Draco keeps boasting of all those things his father is trying to keep hidden. Draco misses all the thoughtfulness, subtlety and cunning a man like Snape is likely to admire in a person. I think. It seems to me that Snape's favoritism of Draco has two reasons: 1) Draco is apparently the best Slytherin has to offer in this particular year (well, compared to Crabbe and Goyle he is a genius), and Snape as a good Head of House has to support his Slytherin students and use all the assets he gets; 2) Favouring Draco makes a good impression on Lucius Malfoy. Just my two Knuts though. Yours severely, Sigune - who started off as a Draco fan because of his style, but eventually lost patience with him for thoughtlessness From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 3 11:20:01 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 11:20:01 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew Power (Was: James Potter Bio Facts) In-Reply-To: <200006081927.46805.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90146 Simariel wrote: << I just had to defend Peter, I think he's quite impressive a wizard.>> Sigune says: Yes he is! It rather confuses me to read references to Pettigrew's lack of magical ability all the time, when he does some impressive magic in our faces. Poor silly powerless Peter Pettigrew kills a whole street full of Muggles, defeats Sirius and gets away transformed as a rat; Poor silly powerless Peter Pettigrew brews a potion that restores old Voldy to his body. It seems to me Mssrs Moony, Padfoot and Prongs have a serious lack of judgment when it comes to both friends (Pettigrew) and enemies (Snape). Yours severely, Sigune From elfundeb at comcast.net Tue Feb 3 11:38:12 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 11:38:12 -0000 Subject: Hey Lexicon Steve! McGonagall/Riddle SHIP In-Reply-To: <000e01c3e90c$76e36800$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90147 Erin wrote: > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timeline.html#Important > > which talks about the Lexicon timeline versus the "official" timeline > approved by Rowling on the CoS dvd, and down at the end of the page > it states that the official timeline stipulates that the opening of > the Chamber of Secrets actually takes place 51 years before the book > CoS. > > So that makes Riddle 68 to McGonagall's 70 at the end of GoF. > I apologize for beating a dead horse, but I have a further correction. I think the difference (assuming 70 is an exact number for McGonagall and that JKR intended it to refer to the end of GoF) is only one year. According to the DVD timeline the Lexicon uses, Tom framed Hagrid on June 13, 1942, at the end of Tom's fifth year (he states it took him five years to discover the secret entrance), when Tom was already or about to turn 16 (Tom stated that he preserved his 16-year-old self in the diary), which would make him 69 at the end of GoF, not 68. A one-year difference makes the possibility of a Riddle/McGonagall relationship more plausible -- especially if it took place *after* they left Hogwarts. McGonagall may have adopted her no-nonsense self-control as a consequence of whatever happened between her and Tom Riddle, to make sure nothing of the kind ever happened again. And, of course, the relationship need not have been romantic. He may have possessed her the way he possessed Ginny; Tom *charmed* Ginny but I don't think there was anything sexual about his possession of her (at least in a physical sense -- for those that see subtexts of puberty and sexual awakening pervading CoS, Tom's possession of Ginny takes on a whole new meaning). And to Carol: who is more curious about whether Tom Riddle was a secret disciple of Grindelwald during his years at Hogwarts Indeed. I think he was. Debbie who is most curious about why McGonagall was so out of the loop on October 31, 1981 From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Feb 3 12:26:39 2004 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 07:26:39 EST Subject: Snape and Draco (Was: Despised Lackey or Social Equal?) Message-ID: <15c.2c3c86fc.2d50ed7f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90148 Sigune muses: >Malfoy Jr may > have a certain talent for potion-making, but apart from that... Draco > strikes me as much too stupid (sorry Draco fans) for Snape to be able > to really respect him or care for him. Snape is very secretive and > discrete; he berates Harry for flaunting his emotions and stuff - > well, Draco is even worse than Harry in that respect, isn't he? He > seems to me to be the greatest danger to his father's reputation > also. Imagine Lucius Malfoy going through all the trouble of clearing > his name after LV's fall, and Dunderhead Draco keeps boasting of all > those things his father is trying to keep hidden. Draco misses all > the thoughtfulness, subtlety and cunning a man like Snape is likely > to admire in a person. I think. I agree with all of that, actually. But I don't think that Draco has a happy home life and I think Snape may well identify with that. There are hints (I'm not going down the abused child road) that Draco doesn't really get on with his father all that well. It's a cold relationship. I always envisaged Snape having a cold, distant (or absent) father, things that are strongly implied in OoP. I suspect that Snape knew Draco or at least his situation to some extent before his arrival at Hogwarts. We're also not really certain of Draco's popularity at school beyond a amall circle of Slytherin hangers on (no indication of true friendship). Snape similarly had a "gang of Slytherins" yet is commonly *perceived* as a loner. He was apparently not popular beyond his own in-group. As for Draco's intelligence. I'm not sure. We know Hermione beats him in exams, but then you'd expect her to beat anyone. Aside from Potions, we only really see him in COMC where he has such disdain for Hagrid that it's impossible to judge his intelligence. I mean, yes, the things he's done in COMC have been stupid, but intelligent boys *do* act stupid and fail to attend or try when they think the subject they're being taught or the teacher teaching it are stupid too. He's not brave, though and that's a definite contrast to Severus. Though whizzing around at high speed on a broomstick must take some kind of courage. I just have a feeling that if Severus had fallen off his broom, probably no-one would have worried about him or asked anyone to cut up *his* potions ingredients for him (hence perhaps part of his willingness to molly coddle Draco). Ability or not, Draco is the most prominent Slytherin in his year. Snape probably was too (all those curses, ability at potions, possible implications of flying ability). And given his character, he probably didn't feel he got the recognition he deserved. So it was part of my mental picture of Snape (who I think tends to project rather) that in his relationship with Draco he rather trieds to treat him as he wishes he had been treated. As I said, not a direct parallel. And of course he has good practical reasons for keeping in with Lucius. But I don't know. You've made me think. :-) ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 12:27:55 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:27:55 -0000 Subject: Hey, Yew/Harry's Scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90149 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > Sawsan here.> > > I looked up the eihwaz (sp?) rune on the net. > > > > http://www.bewitchingways.com/runes/eihwaz.htm > > > > > > EIHWAZ UPRIGHT:Survival, strength, reliability, dependability, > > trustworthiness, enlightenment, endurance, defense, protection, secret > > I would think that the eihwaz upright is what Harry has on his > > forhead if I am correct, and the fact that it is " It is a life giving > > force which has its roots in the Underworld and death" has a lot to do > > with the ancient magic that Harry's mom left for Harry by protecting > > him and sacrificing herself, which maybe, when Voldie tried to kill > > Harry, the Eihwaz appeared. > > > > Thanks for the information. I happen to think that you're right that > the Eihwaz rune, meaning protection and so on, appeared on Harry's > forehead when LV's curse hit Harry as the result of the "ancient > magic" involved with her sacrifice. > > What I want to say here is a new point, at least for me: Normally the > Avada Kedavra leaves the victim unmarked; Tom Riddle's family look as > if they died of fright, poor Cedric looks slightly surprised, but the > curse doesn't blast a hole through them or mark them in any way. Harry > alone is marked. The curse ricohets off his forehead onto Voldemort, > who also suffers in a unique way, losing his body when the normal > reaction is to lose the spirit (die) with the body completely intact. > > Voldemort survived because of pre-existing magic, transformative > spells he had performed on himself. Harry also survived through > pre-existing magic (either his mother's self-sacrifice alone or a > protective charm she placed on him). Which of them caused the scar to > appear? snip> Carol, who swore she was through with this thread but can't seem to > let it go. Another thing I read in PS/SS that I had not noticed before is when Harry i getting his wand. Olivander states that James was good for transfigurations and Lillys was good for CHARMS!!! So there is a clue for POA and I thnk in coming books we may learn more of Lilies expertise of charms. I think that it will be revealed that it was Lily's charm on Harry using the eihwaz rune that saved his life. This does not negate any cannon of Lily's love saving Harry. She loved him so much that she put an ancient protection charm on him. The scar is just comfirmation of this. The force of the AK was at the spot where the scar is on Harry's forehead. It's analogous to a car alarm: you dont know it is there until it is tripped. In GOF, Harry tells DD what LV said about having the same blood protection that Harry has from Harry's mother. ...."For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of of something like triumph in DD eyes......" Could this mean that LV is thinking Harry is only proteced by Lily's blood and love, and DD knows it is more than that. I think there have been posts on the meaning of that particular sentence. As I stated before, I think DD saw rune mark and recognized it for what it is. IMHO this would tie in DD saying scars can be useful and the gleam of victory. The latter has always had me wondering what DD was thinking. Fran From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Tue Feb 3 12:29:54 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 6:29:54 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colin's camera? Message-ID: <20040203122954.EXRS25581.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90150 I think that this is a flint, as modern cameras on batteries, which wouldn't work in Hogwarts. The movie version solves this with an old flash pan camera which doesn't involve electricity. On one of these cameras it's the flash ignition of a phospherous compound and the direct exposure of a photosensitive plate that captures the image. I'm fairly certain that JKR didn't intend for Colin to have an antique like this as the books state that developing the *film* in the proper potions causes the images to move. The ancient not electric cameras didn't have film per se, they had single shot slates. Er....well, there's always older Nikon, Konica and Cannon cameras (1960-1990) that aren't digital either ((And are still in use as valid "professional grade" equipment--I have an old Konica myself)). They're entirely manual/mechanical but for the flash, and I don't think the acid based batteries for the flashes would be affected--they are, after all, more of a 'potion' incased in protective metal themselves, not electrical...The older cameras ALSO require chemical film procession (35mm flim). So there are ways to use a 'modern' camera at Hogwarts--just not a spiffy, hook-it-up-to-the-computer-and-download-pictures one. Which most professionals would not use for thier serious field work anyway--the more electronics the thing has, the more likely something will go wrong at a crucial moment--not a good thing when 'the' picture happens for maybe 2.0 nanoseconds and isn't likely to happen again in your lifetime..(And you can't change lenses, either, which REALLY limits what you can take, and how, from what angle, form how far away (or close), what lighting, etc....). Anne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irina_l_ at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 02:37:09 2004 From: irina_l_ at hotmail.com (ilubom) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 02:37:09 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90151 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Roberson" wrote: [very heavy snipping] >Do you think, perhaps, that might be WHY the Potters > were in hiding in the first place? Do you think the prophecy might > have something to do with WHY the Longbottoms were tortured and ended > up in Hospital? Debbie, I think the prophecy DID have something to do with it. After LV ran into his little problem with killing Harry and lost his powers his inner circle of DEs would have realised that there was more to the prophecy and that LV may have been set up. The best way to find out what happened would be to ask those related to the subject of the prophecy, in the hope that they knew what happened and why (if LV was set up, the Potters and Longbottoms would be most likely to know how that was done). As the Potters were dead, they couldn't tell anyone anything. The only other possibility were the Longbottoms, because their son could also have been the subject of the prophecy. I think the DEs thought the Longbottoms may know something because of their connection with the prophecy and so tried to torture the information out of them. It seems a bit unlikely to me that Longbottoms were targets simply because they were Aurors - there are many Aurors working for the Ministry, but only Longbottoms were singled out. Irina From bcbgx6 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 02:57:08 2004 From: bcbgx6 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 02:57:08 -0000 Subject: Question: Baruffio and the buffalo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90152 Neri wrote: > > > > I would have thought that the editors got it mixed up as usual and it > actually should have written "said `f' instead of `s' ", but what the > @$#& is a "bussalo"??? Do we need a Latin expert here? > Brian writes: I think, at least in my American edition, that there's a mistake here. The spell for levitation is "Wingardium Leviosa" and the movement that accompanies it is "swish and flick." There is no "f" in "Wingardium Leviosa." JKR could have had "swish and flick" on her mind when she wrote the lines. Or she could mean that if one says "fwish and slick" while swishing and flicking the wand, as could happen if one is really struggling to get the movement down (saying "swish and flick" all the while), one could end up with a buffalo on his/her chest. It's also kind of strange that the buffalo-beset Wizard was named Baruffio, a name that is morphophonologically reminiscent of the word "buffalo." From bcbgx6 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 03:08:51 2004 From: bcbgx6 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 03:08:51 -0000 Subject: Despised Lackey or Social Equal?: Snape's 'Respectability' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90153 Julie writes: > I was following the recent discussion about Professor Snape's > supposed "desire" for the DADA position (Good points > all),when a point was raised as to whether or not Lucius Malfoy > considered Severus Snape of sufficient social standing to treat as an > ally vs. a lackey, and that the way Draco "sucks up" to Snape might > indicate his family doesn't "look down on Snape socially". > > What I've been wondering about?and perhaps those of you > familiar with class structure and the British boarding school system > could sound in ? where would Snape's position as Head of Slytherin > House place him in the social context of Wizarding Britain in > general? Ignoring Snape's unpleasant appearance and demeanor, what > type of status does a "job" like Head of House confer as opposed to > just being a Potions professor/Master? > > > > Brian replies: Your post touches on an issue that I've seen before, Snape's designation as Potions Master. My impression, based on two things, is that Master is a general title that could be applied to all fully qualified male teachers in the school. When Snape attempts to command the Marauder's Map to reveal itself, he says something like, "I, Severus Snape, master of this school...." This usage of "master" goes along with Dumbledore's title of head_master_. Here in the U.S., private schools (called "public" schools in the U.K.) often have a "headmaster." A teacher at such a school can be called a master. Dumbledore is the head "master," that is, head teacher. Now it's true that Snape is the only one referred to as "master." JKR's exclusive application of this traditional title to Snape could be significant. As for Snape's social position, the incident between Malfoy and Dumbledore in COS could be helpful in understanding the relationship. Malfoy is "on the board" at Hogwarts, thus in a position of power over any and all teachers. What remains to be seen, however, is how Malfoy and Snape rank in relation to each other in Voldemort's organization. It could well be that Snape is higher in the order of Death Eaters than is Malfoy, or vice versa. Teachers, in all Western societies I know about, occupy a position of some regard, but with little, if any, statutory power, save for that exerted over a child's grade. From claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 04:45:33 2004 From: claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 04:45:33 -0000 Subject: The Magical World Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90154 Have just spent a good time reading some of the FAQ's; now while people delve into the expanded magical world, and some are the explanations are fascinating, one point I think most people are over looking is how the books are written. The books are always written from Harry's POV. So we, the readers, only know what Harry knows, what Harry is told, what Harry sees etc. Perhaps JKR is doing an Asimov and keeping large areas of her world uncovered, for herself or other writers to touch upon at a later date, perhaps? I throw my suggestion out to the wolves!! Also for an alternate 6th and 7th books please read my attempts to be found at groups.yahoo.com/groups/merlin_legacy From penny at smta.cc Tue Feb 3 04:49:51 2004 From: penny at smta.cc (harrymyhero) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 04:49:51 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90155 kg wrote: > I guess the next proof you need for your theory is 1) whether Tom > started calling himself Voldemort before or after he entered the > chamber, and 2) if he created the diary before or after entering the > chamber. I believe he said he was already "Lord Voldemort" ... pg. 314 Am Ed, COS "You see?" he whispered. "It was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course. harrymyhero From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Tue Feb 3 10:00:20 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 10:00:20 -0000 Subject: the reconciliation of the houses (Was: Hey! Yew!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90156 Carol: Might there be some connection between Mr. > Ollivander and the process of reconciliation between Slytherin and the > other houses or between wizards and other beings that must take place > if Voldemort is to be permanently defeated? (There's no point in > destroying Voldemort if what he stands for is not also defeated.) > adi: I don't know about Mr.Ollivander but I was thinking about the reconciliation of the houses a lot. According the sorting hat's new song, there have been differences between the four houses ever since Slytherin left the school. I wonder if that means someone has to return to the school again to achieve the final reonciliation. Like, Slytherin's heir. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Feb 3 12:35:34 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:35:34 -0000 Subject: worse than a vampire and Lupin's boggart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90157 (I think it was) Pippin wrote: > > If Snape could become a cockroach as a teen he would have > > used this ability to escape the werewolf and the Prank as we > > know it wouldn't have happened. > > >x> > Someone else suggested that a cockroach would be a far less > > ominous thing to find in the dark and dusty hall of prophecy. > Carol wrote: > Thank you, Pippin! As you know, I really like Snape (faults and all) > and the idea of his being a cockroach animagus is simply revolting. It > would ruin the books for me forever, far more than your vampire > theory. But you're certainly right. If he could turn into a cockroach > (or a bat, or any other kind of animal) he could have viewed > werewolf!Lupin in perfect safety. > > I've always thought that turning the boggart into a cockroach is his > way of making his own boggart ridiculous. > > x And what would a werewolf fear > more than the moon that would reveal his true identity? > Potioncat here: I hope I'm posting this correctly! I'm going to play Hermione and keep some of my findings to myself to protect the professor I like. I agree with you, Carol. There is some significance to cockroaches and I hope I've found a better suggestion. A jar bursts and cockroaches fall out, a silvery orb turns into a cockroach. Perhaps cockroaches are and important part of the Wolfbane Potion (no wonder it tastes so bad) and Lupin can laugh that something so small and unimportant can defeat the power of the moon. I do think Lupin's Boggart is the moon. I think the prophecy orb was a red herring. As for Snape being an amimagus, he could have learned how to do it after the Prank incident, particularly if that is when he discovered the significance of the nicknames. However, if he does turn into a cockroach (and I do hope not) it's clear that Sirius doesn't know about it. Potioncat From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 14:19:14 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 14:19:14 -0000 Subject: The prophesy...sorry for being boring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90158 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whizbang" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > > "lizvega2" wrote: > > > Harry says in OOP- during a clue men see- that the only people > > he's ever heard call Voldemort the Dark Lord are Death Eaters. > > > > Now, I'm not saying that Trelawney is a DE...no no no. > > > > But, why did she refer to him this way? > > > Also, what are the ramifications of using generic terms like, "The > > one with the power," and "The Dark Lord" ???? > > > > Seems open to interpretation.... maybe Dumbledore thought so too. > > ~lizvega2 > > Whizbang here: > > I love "a clue men see." Is that yours? > LizVega Here: No, a clue men see is not mine. Don't know who originally spotted it- but I saw it in Galadriel Water's New Clues Book, if you haven't read it- it's pretty insightful, I really enjoyed it- something to do during the down time, you know? hehe > I'm not sure it's Trelawney speaking when these prophesies are > delivered. It doesn't sound like her voice and she seems unaware of > them. So is she channeling someone else? > > And generic terms have all kinds of possiblilities. Maybe Voldemort > isn't the Dark Lord. Is he possessed by some entity that is? Has > this entity possessed others in the past? > > As for the "one with the power," my feeling is that there were > enough "identifying features" as Dumbledore called them, to pinpoint > the one who was born with the power. True, Dumbledore had to wait > for all the identifying features to manifest in order to know for > certain which boy the prophesy spoke of, as there was only one with > the power who approached, not a couple of possibilities. Just > because it wasn't known for sure which boy was the one in the > prophesy, doesn't mean it could have been either. As it was Harry, > it was always and only Harry. > > ~Whizbang From elfundeb at comcast.net Tue Feb 3 14:21:05 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 14:21:05 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90159 Debbie Roberson wrote: > One point that I think is very significant is that approximately A > YEAR AND A HALF passed from the night of Trelawney's prophecy to the > night Voldemort attacked the Potters in Godric's Hollow. > > There was enough time for Dumbledore to figure out which > parents/children were likely candidates and help them take > precautions. Do you think, perhaps, that might be WHY the Potters > were in hiding in the first place? Do you think the prophecy might > have something to do with WHY the Longbottoms were tortured and ended > up in Hospital? > Ah, another Debbie. Welcome! I think only the Potters were in hiding, and it wasn't because of the prophecy. I don't believe Dumbledore learned that Voldemort knew about the prophecy until much later. Of course, I don't know how reliable Fudge is on such matters, but my primary canon is the following, from PoA, ch. 10: "Fudge dropped his voice and proceeded in a sort of low rumble. 'Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know- Who was after them. Dumbledore . . . had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped them off, and he alerted James and Lily at once. He advices them to go into hiding. . . . Dumbledore told them that their best chance was the Fidelius Charm." Since the Potters were attacked only a week after the Fidelius Charm was performed, it appears that Dumbledore didn't realize how much Voldemort knew about the prophecy until the spy (Snape! Snape!) informed him. I doubt the Longbottoms were ever under similar protection if Dumbledore relied on his covert information. And since the attack on Godric's Hollow, Dumbledore has clearly believed -- as he tells Harry at the end of GoF -- that Harry is the one and Neville accordingly wouldn't need protection. Debbie From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Tue Feb 3 14:53:31 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 14:53:31 -0000 Subject: The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90160 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Speculation on future events- > > Question in two parts, what do you think will happen to Umbridge as a > result of her actions before and at Hogwarts, and what do you hope > will happen to her? > Carolyn: I think Umbridge is just the latest and most horrible manifestation of what is rotten at the MoM, and of the behaviour of bureaucracy under threat. Crouch Sr was a previous extreme example - he was prepared to use almost any methods to win (including it was whispered, the unforgiveable curses). Even Mad-Eye was pretty ruthless when he was an Auror, even if he didn't use the curses, certainly much more cynical than Dumbledore, judging by Moody's comments in the pensieve trial scenes. Fudge is an archetypal weak, power-loving official, unable to take a principled position on anything. I don't think he would regard Umbridge as having done anything particularly wrong, only as having failed in their attempt to deal with the power-threat from Hogwarts. Although Dumbledore & Harry have been proved right about Voldemort, and Fudge has now got to be seen to be implementing protective policies for the WW, inwardly he must be seething with rage at being made to look so stupid. Umbridge likewise - she's more or less psycho anyway; I should think her experiences in the forest and at Hogwarts have completely tipped her over the edge. Because the books are getting darker and more complex, I don't believe there will be anything so simple and satisfying as bunging the pair of them into Azkaban where they belong. Instead, I think that in Book 6 at any rate, there will be a continuing sub-plot at the MoM, where Fudge, manipulated/goaded on/supported by Umbridge (and others) tries to protect his position (and the authority of the MoM) longer-term. Remember the behaviour of the rest of the Wizengamot - only a few openly stood out against the removal of Dumbledore, and most would have gone along with Fudge's treatment of Harry at his trial if DD hadn't intervened. Arthur, Tonks and Shacklebolt have all had to be very circumspect in garnering ministry support up until the end of OoP. Its a typical government culture - apart from the Aurors, full of cautious, risk-averse types, shuffling paper. We also don't know anything about WW election processes, or how people can be chucked out. Maybe you get to be Minister of Magic for life, or at least until retirement, for instance - which could be over 100 years. These sort of timescales might mean that the MoM gets riven by the sort of internecine struggle that royal families went in for when they really did run the country. In this situation, I could envisage Fudge + Umbridge and other extreme supporters doing some kind of deal with Voldemort, in the mistaken belief that it will win them power over some other faction at the MoM. Its happened plenty of times in real life. We are told that this is exactly how Voldemort works, successively tricking, lying, blackmailing, intimidating, and setting people against each other. People also do not necessarily hate Voldemort. We have the example of the support he got from pure-bloods previously, until they saw how far he was prepared to go to win power. There are still people around, like Ollivander, who thought he 'did great things', even if they were evil. Characters like Filch, and the various low-life which hang around Knock-turn Alley would presumably be easily recruited. Perhaps Percy will find out about this deal, and this will be his moment of glory - he realises how wrong he has been, tells DD, but somehow dies as a result. I am sure Umbridge will be killed off eventually, but I think she is going to cause much more suffering before she's done. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 14:58:35 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 14:58:35 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and Blood Lines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90161 I know this may have been covered, but I have been away awhile. I was wondering about that horrible punishment Umbridge had for Harry, the quill that wrote lines in blood on the back of his hand. Does anyone else think this is symbolic (yes, quite elementary) of Umbridge's preference for purebloods and willingness to punish half- bloods and mudbloods. If so, how far would she take this? DE? And, what might she know about Fudge? Julie From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 15:11:20 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 15:11:20 -0000 Subject: The Magical World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90162 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > Have just spent a good time reading some of the FAQ's; now while > people delve into the expanded magical world, and some are the > explanations are fascinating, one point I think most people are over > looking is how the books are written. The books are always written > from Harry's POV. So we, the readers, only know what Harry knows, > what Harry is told, what Harry sees etc. Perhaps JKR is doing an > Asimov and keeping large areas of her world uncovered, for herself or > other writers to touch upon at a later date, perhaps? > > I throw my suggestion out to the wolves!! > > Also for an alternate 6th and 7th books please read my attempts to be > found at groups.yahoo.com/groups/merlin_legacy Meri here: I think you make a good point. JKR's world is as new to Harry as it is to us. He asks all the questions that we want to (or most of them anyhow) and through him we learn about the magical world. I think that this is one of the strengths of the books: no prior knowledge is required. (Unlike, say, Tolkien, where you need to have read a few things before hand to know anything about anything.) She reveals her world at her own pace, and I for one like the way she does so. As to having other writers take on parts of the HP world, I really can't see that happening. JKR letting her literary baby whom she nursed through young adulthood be touched by other writers, as well intentioned as they may be? I don't see it. Meri (who wanted to jump in on the clothing discussions but didn't have time and sees Harry as more of an Old Navy guy than a Brooks Brothers boy) From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 15:22:31 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 15:22:31 -0000 Subject: the reconciliation of the houses (Was: Hey! Yew!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90163 adi wrote: I was thinking about the reconciliation of the houses a lot. According the sorting hat's new song, there have been differences between the four houses ever since Slytherin left the school. I wonder if that means someone has to return to the school again to achieve the final reonciliation. Like, Slytherin's heir. Meri here: Well, Slytherin's heir allready came to the school in Tom Riddle, and that didn't work out so well. Unless Tom Riddle had some long lost affair that we don't yet know about, he is (as DD said) the last Slytherin. But you make an excellent point. The four houses will have to stand united if Hogwarts is going to survive the second war, and the only way to do that is for the Gryffindors, Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws to embrace and accept the Slytherins and vice versa. The first three have allready shown that they can unite against Slytherin, but the real challenge for them will be to bring that oft exlied house into the fold. Each house has its good qualities and its bad ones, and I personally can't wait to meet a redeeming Slytherin, someone who is resourseful and ambitious, but in a good way, because it would just be too one dimensional for JKR to have them all be evil, Malfoy loving gits. Meri (who is amusing herself between classes with thoughts of LV's illegitimate grandchild getting sorted into Hufflepuff next term) From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 15:29:22 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 15:29:22 -0000 Subject: Houses Unite! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90164 I know I've harped on this issue before, with very little interest from the rest of you- which is fine- I don't mind pontificating for my own amusement! The theme of 'unity among the houses' started becoming clear around book four, possibly sooner- my indepth reading sometimes gets shallow- first beginning with the TriWizard tournament, which I believe took place simply for the purpose of Dumbledore getting Beauxbaton and Durmstrang together because he knew Volderot was getting more powerful, just like he brought Moody to the school, as a form of a protection for Harry. Hermione states somewhere in GOF that the purpose of the tournament was to create unity between the wizarding schools, and it hadn't been held in how many hundreds of years before? What a coincidence that Dumbledore, I'm assuming, went to so much trouble to reinstate it. Karkaroff basically says so after Harry is made champion. So, Dumbledore finds out from Harry at the end of Book 3 that Trelawney predicted Wormtail scurrying off, and helping Volderot to power again- and she did say that he would become more powerful than before. Very soon after term ended, maybe before even, DD started putting things together as a means of precautionary measures. He worked to reinstate the triwizard tournament to strengthen the ties between the three largest wizarding schools, and he brought Moody to school- wonder what else he did? At the end of book 4, DD gives his speech about UNITING and CHOOSING. He says that volderot's power is held in his ability to create tension and mistrust in the wizarding community. At the beginning of book 5 the sorting hat talks about how when the founders first created the school they were the best of friends. The hat states specifically that gryffindor and slytherin were BEST friends while ravenclaw and hufflepuff were best friends. And, how the houses were torn apart by bickering. Can anyone imagine slytherin and gryffindor being best friends now? It's been pounded into our heads just how much slytherin and gryffindor hate each other. Throughout all five books, the anamosity is present and reinforced by jo. Doesn't Ron joke after the sorting in book 5, after Hermione makes the comment about unity, that he wouldn't ever become friends with slytherin's? But, it seems that perhaps everything is building toward that outcome. The DA was a good way to get Harry to interact with the ravenclaws, and hufflepuffs. It's stated that ravenclaw and hufflepuff will cheer for gryffindor before they'll cheer for the slytherin's- i think in the first book at the end. So, even if all of the houses have to unite there will still be stragglers- some, like malfoy and the thugs and that cow parkinson- probably won't join our side- but what about the rest of the slytherin house mates? Are they all like Malfoy? I can't recall one episode that Harry has had with a slytherin that has been positive, so, what will finally convince Harry and Ron to forget about how much they hate Slytherin? Perhaps they need to find out about some decent slytherin's......????? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Feb 3 15:36:10 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 15:36:10 -0000 Subject: Lestrange (was:Re: The Lestrange's/Crouch Trial and Lexicon) In-Reply-To: <61.3a9144da.2d50d4c5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > > The best known Mrs Lestrange in literature is (or at least was!) a character > in Agatha Christie's 'Murder at the Vicarage'. Thie murder victim in this book > was one *Lucius* Prothero. Perhaps coincidence. Perhaps a suggestion of JKR's > recreational reading. In either case, both names with a British literary > precedent. > There's been mention previously that JKR is a sort-of fan of our Aggie. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she's not using the same standards of plot resolution that La Christie is infamous for. (She cheats, you know. Clues not made available to the reader suddenly appear in the final exposition.) At least Dumbledore doesn't seem to be Belgian, though Sybill as Miss Marple would be a turn up for the books.... Kneasy From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 3 15:46:50 2004 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 15:46:50 -0000 Subject: clothing in the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zesca" wrote: > In the movie abomination/contamination of book 1 we see Harry on the > Hogwarts Express with ripped khakies several sizes too big. When watching > H fight Quirrelmort I remember thinking: no, not the red cableknit...where did > he get that anyway? Alshain, coming in late to the clothes thread: I've assumed that he's wearing the Weasley jumper (at least it looks like it's handmade). Cables are more interesting to knit than plain stocking stitch (that's when the right side is all smooth, no?) and a crewneck is one of the easiest necks you can do. Alshain the V-neck challenged knitter From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Feb 3 16:00:07 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 16:00:07 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and Blood Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" wrote: > I know this may have been covered, but I have been away awhile. > > I was wondering about that horrible punishment Umbridge had for > Harry, the quill that wrote lines in blood on the back of his hand. > Does anyone else think this is symbolic (yes, quite elementary) of > Umbridge's preference for purebloods and willingness to punish half- > bloods and mudbloods. If so, how far would she take this? DE? > And, what might she know about Fudge? > There was a post I made months ago where I theorised that our Dolly is not a pureblood (78719). No known pureblood is described as wearing Muggle clothes and Dolly has that horrible pink cardigan. Purebloods go to Madame Malkin where they get robes for *all* occasions. IMO adults that wear robes only is a pureblood identifier. So it's unlikely that she's a DE. A nasty disposition, political expediency and a wish to please the pureblood powers-that-be could explain Dolly's attitude. Kneasy From rredordead at aol.com Tue Feb 3 16:13:47 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 16:13:47 -0000 Subject: The Lestrange's/Crouch Trial and Lexicon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90168 Thanks for that. I thinks it's time to me to re-read GoF, again. Any excuse right? ;-) Mandy From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 16:28:22 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 16:28:22 -0000 Subject: worse than a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90169 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > I have a feeling the silvery orb is a prophecy orb and not the > moon at all. " Or did you realize that the boggart turned into the > full moon when it saw me?" is, like many other things that Lupin > says, equivocal. Carol/Message 90134 As for Lupin's boggart not being the full moon, I've wondered about that, too. Not only does Lavender refer to it as a crystal ball after the boggart lesson, I seem to recall a scene in which Sybil Trelawney offers to read Lupin's future and he runs off in the opposite direction. (If I didn't imagine this scene, it would have to be in PoA.) But his words to Hermione in the Shrieking Shack seem to indicate that it really is a full moon. And what would a werewolf fear more than the moon that would reveal his true identity? ~Calimora/90139 Perhaps the crystal ball that could(did) reveal his future? McGonagall's comments about Sybil imply that there are a few genuinely talented seers out there. Perhaps the Divination class wasn't always rubish. Potioncat/90157: I do think Lupin's Boggart is the moon. I think the prophecy orb was a red herring. "K" The Boggart lesson: 'It's a shapeshifter,' she said. 'It can take the shape of whatever it thinks will frighten us most.' 'So the Boggart sitting in the darkness within has not yet assumed a form. He does not yet know what will frighten the person on the other side of the door. 'It's always best to have company when you're dealing with a Boggart. He becomes confused. The charm that repels a Boggart is simple, yet it requires force of mind. You see, the thing that really finishes a Boggart is *laughter*. What you need to do is force it to assume a shape that you find amusing. poa/ch 7/pg 101/uk The wardrobe burst open. Hook-nosed and menacing, Professor Snape stepped out, his eyes flashing at Neville. 'R-r-riddikulus!' squeaked Neville. There was a noise like a whip-crack. Snape stumbled; There was a roar of laughter; the Boggart paused, confused, and Professor Lupin shouted, 'Parvati! Forward! Parvarti walked forward, her face set. Snape rounded on her. There was another crack, and where he had stood was a blood-stained, bandaged mummy... poa/ch 7/pgs 103-104 Parvati cries 'riddikulus'... The bandages unravel, become entangled and fall... Lupin calls for Seamus...Seamus darts past Parvati. *Crack!* A banshee appears Seamus cries 'Riddikulus'... banshee makes a rasping noise and clutches her throat, her voice is gone. *Crack!* Turns into a rat, which chases it's tail. *Crack!* Becomes a rattlesnake, which slithered and writhed before... *Crack!* Single, bloody eyeball. Lupin calls for Dean. Dean hurries forward. *Crack!* Eyeball becomes a severed hand. 'Riddikulus!' yelled Dean. Hand is trapped in a mousetrap. Lupin calls for Ron. Ron leaps forward. *Crack!* Giant spider. 'Riddikulus!' bellowed Ron. The spider's legs vanish and it rolls over and over. Boggart comes to a halt at Harry's feet. He raises his wand but... 'Here' shouted Professor Lupin suddenly, hurrying forward. *Crack!* A silvery-white orb hangs in the air in front of Lupin. 'Riddikulus! Lupin says, almost lazily. *Crack!* 'Forward, Neville, and finish him off!' said Lupin, as the Boggart landed on the floor as a cockroach. Crack! Snape was back. This time Neville charged forward looking determined. *Crack!* 'Riddikulus!* Neville shouts. Split second view of Snape in his lacy dress. Neville - 'Ha,!' of laughter, and the Boggart exploded into a thousand tiny wisps of smoke, and was gone. poa/ch 7/pgs 104-105/uk ~~~~ The person approaches the Boggart. The Boggart assumes a shape. The person calls Riddikulus. The Boggart, still associated with what that person fears, is then shown in a way that person finds amusing, then the *next shape* is of what the *next person* fears. In shortened form: Riddikulus Snape/Boggart stumbles Crack Riddikulus Mummy/Boggart is unravelling Crack Banshee/Boggart Can no longer shriek. Crack Boggart/Orb Crack Should not the orb have been shown again in the form that Lupin finds amusing *before* the *Crack*? Regardless of whether it is the moon or a prophecy orb, we should have seen something else after Lupin cried Riddikulus. The orb turns into a cockroach after the *Crack*. So is that cockroach associated with Lupin's boggart or is it now associated with Neville, as it's Neville that has now come forward to finish off the Boggart? If the cockroach is associated with Lupin's Boggart, then the cockroach is connected with the orb. The amusement has to do with the orb and not with Snape. Right??? I'm asking if that would be correct. At least that's how I'm reading it. Why would it be amusing for the moon to turn into a cockroach? Or why would it be amusing for a prophecy orb to turn into a cockroach? I guess what I'm trying to say is that whatever that person finds amusing is still associated with that fear. It's the orb and cockroaches. Not the cockroach and Snape. I do believe the red herring is the moon. It's only Lupin who says that is what he sees. Yet as Carol has pointed out Lavender Brown sees it as a crystal ball. So should we believe Lupin or is he hiding something? Or did you realize that the Boggart changed into the moon when it was me?' (Lupin) poa/ch 17/pg 253/uk ~~'I wonder why Professor Lupin's frightened of crystal balls?' said Lavender thoughtfully. poa/ch 7/pg 105/uk~~ One could look at the following as an attempt by Lupin to learn about Harry's divination lesson. Hence, Lupin is indeed interested in some sort of prophecy. Is Lupin really interested in only Harry or is he also interested in what the tea leaves say? ~~'Sit down,' said Lupin, taking the lid off a dusty tin. 'I've only got teabags, I'm afraid - but I daresay you've had enough of tea leaves?' Harry looked at him. Lupin's eyes were twinkling. 'How did you know about that?' Harry asked. 'Professor McGonagall told me,' said Lupin, passing Harry a chipped mug of tea. poa/ch 8/pg 116/uk The connection between cyrstal balls and orbs is seen again in another incident. ~~'If you must know, Minerva, I have seen that poor Professor Lupin will not be with us for very long. He seems aware, himself, that his time is short. He positively fled when I offered to crystal-gaze for him -' poa/ch 11/pg 170/uk So what is Lupin's fear? Is it his true identity or is it the future? I'm not really sure. Could it not be both? If you are a believer in the James/Lupin switch, would not James be afraid of the prophecy orb (Harry's ?) and of revealing his true indentity? Personally, I don't belive that James is Lupin but I will say it is possible that someone else could be Lupin. As in we have never known the true Lupin, just the one who is using his body. So, I do believe it's a prophecy orb but I don't think it necessarily makes dear Lupin out to be evil. "K" From rredordead at aol.com Tue Feb 3 16:28:51 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 16:28:51 -0000 Subject: Hey, Yew/Harry's Scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90170 Carol wrote: > Thanks for the information. I happen to think that you're right that > the Eihwaz rune, meaning protection and so on, appeared on Harry's > forehead when LV's curse hit Harry as the result of the "ancient > magic" involved with her sacrifice. > What I want to say here is a new point, at least for me: Normally the Avada Kedavra leaves the victim unmarked; Tom Riddle's family look as if they died of fright, poor Cedric looks slightly surprised, but the curse doesn't blast a hole through them or mark them in any way. Harry alone is marked. The curse ricohets off his forehead onto Voldemort, who also suffers in a unique way, losing his body when the normal reaction is to lose the spirit (die) with the body completely intact. > Voldemort survived because of pre-existing magic, transformative > spells he had performed on himself. Harry also survived through > pre-existing magic (either his mother's self-sacrifice alone or a > protective charm she placed on him). Which of them caused the scar to appear? Is it merely the accidental marking of Harry as Voldemort's equal, Eihwaz-shaped because of the association of yew with the rune, or did it appear the second the curse struck Harry as a result of protective magic (also associated with the rune), shielding him and deflecting the curse onto Voldemort? Or both? Mandy here: Thank you for putting so clearly what I have been trying to say all along. And sorry I wasn't around to back you up last week, I was out of town and am just now catching up. This thread doesn't seem to want to die just yet. ;-) Perhaps because it's a good one. But I think at this point, we are not going to get any closer to solving the main 2 questions: How did the scar get there? And by who?, until book 6 comes out gives us more some more meat to chew on. So, those of you who are convinced LV if the sole reason for the scar, and those of us who think there's more to Lily's involvement, are just going to have to agree to disagree...for now. Roll on book 6 Cheers Mandy. From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 16:29:23 2004 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 16:29:23 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90171 "Fred Waldrop" wrote I have been thinking about the prophecy a lot for a while now. (page 741 UK & 841 US OotP) "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROCHES....BORN TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM, BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES... AND THE DARK LORD WILL MARK HIM AS HIS EQUAL, BUT HE WILL HAVE POWERS THE DARK LORD WILL KNOW NOT... AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HANDS OF THE OTHER FOR NEITHER CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES... THE ONE WITH POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD WILL BE BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES..." Now I know it is only my opinion, but the two parts that jump out at me are "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROCHES" and "AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HANDS OF THE OTHER". Now my point is this, LV COULD NOT kill Harry, because at THAT TIME, Harry was not able(old enough, powerful enough?) to kill LV. And until Harry DOES have the power/will/ability to kill LV, LV will not be able to kill Harry. Because in the prophecy, "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD" has to be able to kill LV, because the prophcey says "EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HANDS OF THE OTHER". It give BOTH Harry AND LV a chance, not just one or the other. Naama wrote I'd like to point out that "the one with the power to.." doesn't necessarily mean "the one who can...". It depends on how you interpret 'power.' It can be viewed as a potentiality, rather than as an active force. E.g., Harry had always had the power to produce a Patronus, but was not always able to do so (because he lacked the knowledge, he lacked the self confidence, etc.). In that case, baby Harry was vulnerable, since of course he couldn't have vanquished Voldemort then. That, of course, was what Voldemort was hoping for - to eliminate his mortal enemy before he posed a real threat to him. The fact that it didn't work out, doesn't mean that it categorically *couldn't* have worked out. Fred again Naama,if you would have read all of what I said, you would have seen "And until Harry DOES have the *power/will/ability* to kill LV, LV will not be able to kill Harry." I understand that Harry alway had the "power", but he did not have the ability to use it as a baby. ===================================================================== Fred wrote Also, I think the reason in GoF, chap. 36, "The Parting of the Ways", Harry says, "For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes." I think that Dumbledore knows that it is not really Lily's sacrafice that saved Harry (I think it could have made it a lot eaiser for Harry, IE he just gets a scar instead of something worse. Without Lily's sacrafice, Harry could have been hurt much worse but still have lived.) Naama wrote On what do you base the assertion that it wasn't Lily's sacrifice that saved Harry? Fred again Just like so many more in here, no one REALLY knows what kept Harry from dying, we all just have out theories about what helped save him. Whith my theory, I AM still including Lily's scrafice, possibly a charm protection and giving a reason for Dumbledore's "gleam" in GoF. And I think, of course, it is only my opion, that my theory is as sound as any other one that has been brought up to date. Fred From rredordead at aol.com Tue Feb 3 17:02:58 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:02:58 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew Power (Was: James Potter Bio Facts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90172 > Simariel wrote: > > << I just had to defend Peter, I think he's quite impressive a > wizard.>> > > Sigune says: > Yes he is! It rather confuses me to read references to Pettigrew's > lack of magical ability all the time, when he does some impressive > magic in our faces. > Poor silly powerless Peter Pettigrew kills a whole street full of > Muggles, defeats Sirius and gets away transformed as a rat; > Poor silly powerless Peter Pettigrew brews a potion that restores old Voldy to his body. > It seems to me Mssrs Moony, Padfoot and Prongs have a serious lack of judgment when it comes to both friends (Pettigrew) and enemies > (Snape). Mandy here: Hear! Hear! As a big fan of Peter Pettigrew I am always quick to jump to his defense as a great Wizard. Despicable person, yes, but powerfully magical. Time and time again people surrounding Peter Pettigrew underestimate him much, to their eventual horror. Peter is not, by any stretch of the imagination, weak! His only 'mistake' is to be insecure. He wanted others to like him too much, and when they didn't, he saw to it that they paid for it. James and Sirius made that mistake, seeming to ignore his abilities, which were as good as theirs, and making fun of him. ""Put that away will you? Said Sirius finally, as James made a fine catch and Wormtail let out a cheer. "Before Wormtail wets himself from excitement." Wormtail turned slightly pink....." Snapes Worst Memory, page 645, OopT, US Edition. Comments like that may seem like nothing to those speaking them, but to those on the receiving end, they cut like a hot knife, sudden, sharp and terribly painful. And this was a moment of happiness for the group! I can imagine how they treated Peter when they were annoyed or angry. Peter eventually turned his back on them and walked toward a mentor who promised him so much more, I imagine treated him with respect (at least for a while) and gave him some of the power he craved. James ended up dead and Sirius in prison. Harry underestimated Peter in PoA, showing mercy on a man begging for his life. That resulted in LV resurrection in GoF much to Harry's horror. I'm not blaming Sirius, James and Harry for Peter's behavior. Peter is solely responsible for his decisions and actions. But it is the continual underestimation of 'little' Peter Pettigrew that is going to keep causing mayhem amongst the Order. What interesting to me is the fact that currently Voldemort is underestimating Peter, treating him badly and disrespectfully and I wonder what that means for Peter? I foresee Peter turning on Voldemort viciously, eventually. Peter can't help it. Remember it's always the quite one you have to watch and never turn you back on them! That may be a silly old wives tale but it's true. Underestimate it at your own risk! Mandy From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Tue Feb 3 17:08:12 2004 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:08:12 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Umbridge and Blood Lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <401FD57C.3060105@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90173 drjuliehoward wrote: > I know this may have been covered, but I have been away awhile. > > I was wondering about that horrible punishment Umbridge had for > Harry, the quill that wrote lines in blood on the back of his hand. > Does anyone else think this is symbolic > > Julie > I don't think it is especially symbolic of anything except her sadism. I am bothered by that quill. It is clearly a Dark Arts object. Where did she get it? I bet it is illegal. I wanted Lee Jordan and Harry to go to MacGonagall about it, so Umbridge's use of it on students went on record. That b**** Umbridge is insane, cruel and such a brilliant fictional creation. I think this even though I had a teacher just like her; without the magic of course. What a delight to read OOP and loathe her! digger From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 17:13:46 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:13:46 -0000 Subject: The prophesy...sorry for being boring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90174 > Whizbang wrote: > I'm not sure it's Trelawney speaking when these prophesies are > delivered. It doesn't sound like her voice and she seems unaware of > them. So is she channeling someone else? Carol: Hey, Whizbang! We agree here. Since the voice doesn't sound like hers and she's not aware that she's prophesying, clearly she's channeling someone or something, very much as the ancient Sibyls she's named after were supposed to have done (sibyl = prophetess or witch). Given the foggy belief system in the WW, it's hard to say who she's channeling, though. It can't be the pagan gods. Can it be the God of Christianity or other monotheistic religions? I don't think so. An impersonal voice from the spirit world? I just don't know. It's interesting, though, that her grandmother was named Cassandra, after the Trojan woman whose prophecies, though true, were never believed. Whizbang: > As for the "one with the power," my feeling is that there were > enough "identifying features" as Dumbledore called them, to pinpoint > the one who was born with the power. Carol: You're still taking your "born with the power" interpretation for granted. Nowhere does the prophecy say that "the one" is born with the power. (In fact, he hasn't even been born when the prophecy is spoken.) It's entirely possible, and indeed probable, that he acquires the power, or rather the potential for that power, when the curse fails. Granted, part of the prophecy (the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal) refers to the events at Godric's Hollow, but the rest of it has not happened yet. Harry and LV have not yet met on equal terms, and one or the other has not yet fallen. If Harry already had the power to destroy Voldemort, he would have done so in CoS or GoF. It appears that his powers are not yet fully developed. He's still a wizard in training. In any case, the wording of the prophecy ise ambiguous, and it's best not to be too certain of our interpretations. Whizbang: True, Dumbledore had to wait > for all the identifying features to manifest in order to know for > certain which boy the prophesy spoke of, as there was only one with > the power who approached, not a couple of possibilities. Just > because it wasn't known for sure which boy was the one in the > prophesy, doesn't mean it could have been either. As it was Harry, > it was always and only Harry. Carol: Again, you're taking your point of view for granted. It's possible that Voldemort could have chosen--and "marked"--Neville. IMO, the moment he chose Harry and unwittingly marked him with the scar (which may or may not have appeared because of Lily's protective charm), "the one" became Harry. Until that point, either boy fit the description and either could have been "the one." (At least we agree that after Godric's Hollow, Neville was out of the running and the prophecy applied only to Harry.) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 17:32:37 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:32:37 -0000 Subject: worse than a vampire and Lupin's boggart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90175 > > And what would a werewolf fear > > more than the moon that would reveal his true identity? > > > > Carol > > Perhaps the crystal ball that could(did) reveal his future? > McGonagall's comments about Sybil imply that there are a few > genuinely talented seers out there. Perhaps the Divination class > wasn't always rubish. > > ~Calimora Carol: You could be right. After all, Trelawney does see what looks like a Grim in the crystal ball in PoA and there really is a Grim-like dog in Harry's future at that point. And she also seems to have predicted that "one of our number will leave us forever" (quoting from memory here), which could count as a minor prophecy about Hermione. It would be funny if both Dumbledore and McGonagall were wrong about divination. I do think that the crystal ball was a red herring to lead us away from the idea of Lupin as a werewolf, but I'm not absolutely sure. There seems to be no question that some prophecies are real (the ones that were copied and stored in the DoM), but evidently minor predictions based on palm reading and crystal ball gazing are too insignificant to matter. As Firenze says, they focus on the individual person and not on the whole picture. (Bad paraphrase, sorry.) BTW, some questions I asked earlier still have not been answered. How are the prophecies (or their echoes) captured in crystal and can the ones whose containers were destroyed in the battle be restored? Is the loss of the record of the prophecies important or not? (I realize that we can't answer these questions with any precision, but I'm interested in speculations about them.) Carol From smaragdina5 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 17:37:42 2004 From: smaragdina5 at yahoo.com (smaragdina5) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:37:42 -0000 Subject: worse than a vampire and Lupin's boggart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90176 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote:> Potioncat here: I hope I'm posting this correctly! > There is some significance to cockroaches and I hope I've found a > better suggestion. A jar bursts and cockroaches fall out, a silvery > orb turns into a cockroach. Don't forget the Cockroach Clusters, important enough that they were made into a password and later recalled by Harry to get into Dumbledore's office (who was just joking)! Betta smaragdina From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 17:49:08 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:49:08 -0000 Subject: Question: Baruffio and the buffalo In-Reply-To: <008601c3e9f0$e7c86a40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90177 > Neri: > could someone please > explain to me (slowly, with diagrams) if there is a pun in: > > SS/PS, Ch. 10: > "Now, don't forget that nice wrist movement we've been practicing!" > squeaked Professor Flitwick, perched on top of his pile of books as > usual. "Swish and flick, remember, swish and flick. And saying the > magic words properly is very important, too - never forget Wizard > Baruffio, who said `s' instead of `f' and found himself on the floor > with a buffalo on his chest." > Taryn: > Flitwick is referring to mispronouncing the spell, which we don't know, which PRODUCED the buffalo on Baruffio's chest. The spell probably didn't have "buffalo" in it, he just mis-pronounced the spell and accidently ended up with it. So we don't know what the spell was. > Neri again: OK, I gather there wasn't a pun here (or at least I'm not the only one who haven't got it), but this puzzler still bugs me: what kind of charm, when you replace the 'f' with 's', will cause a buffalo to appear on your chest????? I had this crazy picture in my mind of Baruffio meaning to say something like "accio basalo" but said `f' instead of `s' with disastrous results... only it is written the other way around: "said `s' instead of `f' ". Another crazy idea: isn't the scientific (latin) name of animal the americans call buffalo is actually "bison"? So what if the original charm Baruffio meant to say included the word "bifon" (whatever that is...)? Or, what is the latin name of the african or asian buffalo? Neri, stopping before he suggests something *really* stupid. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 18:22:46 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 18:22:46 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" wrote: > ...or, maybe the author did not go into the kind of detail that spelled every little bitty tiny thing out, but said just enough for us to come to the conclution that ALL FOUR received some stink sap, whether it was spelled out or not. Bookworm: That's when the warning lights should go on - when we conclude something that JKR doesn't specifically mention. That seems to be when she is the sneakiest ;-) Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 18:29:52 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 18:29:52 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > All JKR is trying to do, is describe an indecipherable mumbled vocal untterance. Bookworm: Are you absolutely, positively, certain about that?! For any other author, I would agree, but not JKR... Ravenclaw Bookworm From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 18:53:39 2004 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 18:53:39 -0000 Subject: The prophesy...sorry for being boring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > Carol: > Hey, Whizbang! We agree here. Since the voice doesn't sound like > hers and she's not aware that she's prophesying, clearly she's > channeling someone or something, =========================================== Whizbang: Whose voice comes from Trelawney is an interesting question. Reminds me of the howler that Petunia got. Harry didn't actually recognise that voice. He deduced it was Dumbledore's nearly a year later. ======================================== > Carol: > You're still taking your "born with the power" interpretation for > granted. Nowhere does the prophecy say that "the one" is born with > the power. (In fact, he hasn't even been born when the prophecy is > spoken.) -------------------------------------------------- Whizbang: The one had the power when the prophesy was delivered. "The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches." At that moment, as Trelawney spoke and Dumbledore listened, the one was approaching with the power. If there was one and he had the power when the prophesy was delivered, where did it go when he was born? It doesn't seem logical to assume that One with the Power was approaching became a couple of possiblilities, either of whom could get the power when the last event disclosing the identifying feature occurred. ============================================== Carol: > It's entirely possible, and indeed probable, that he acquires > the power, or rather the potential for that power, when the curse > fails. Granted, part of the prophecy (the Dark Lord will mark him > as his equal) refers to the events at Godric's Hollow, but the > rest of it has not happened yet. ------------------------------------------- Whizbang: Dumbledore refers to the marking by Voldemort as the "final identifying feature," not a bestowing of oneness or the potential for it. As this prophesy is also about the Dark Lord, he must fulfill his part of it. Therefore, he must mark the one. He can only mark the one. Anyone else he attempted to death curse would have died. Therefore, as Neville was not the one and never was, if Voldemort had gotten to Neville first, Neville would not have survived. Voldemort did not choose his nemesis. He fulfilled his part of the prophesy and in the process made it possible to identify the one. What did happen when Voldemort marked Harry, is that Voldy gave Harry powers and a future to escape him. His own powers. ================================================= Carol: > Again, you're taking your point of view for granted. It's possible > that Voldemort could have chosen--and "marked"--Neville. IMO, the > moment he chose Harry and unwittingly marked him with the scar > (which may or may not have appeared because of Lily's protective > charm), "the one" became Harry. Until that point, either boy fit > the description and either could have been "the one." (At least we > agree that after Godric's Hollow, Neville was out of the running > and the prophecy applied only to Harry.) > Whizbang: So the one is approaching but it hasn't yet taken possession of one of the boys. ??? Then who is the One? It's neither Harry nor Neville but some other entity entirely that uses whichever boy the DL marks? Is this a battle between two entities, the Dark Lord and the One, who are only using/possessing Tom Riddle and Harry Potter to pursue their antatgonism? From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 19:00:34 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:00:34 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > All JKR is trying to do, is describe an indecipherable mumbled > vocal untterance. > > Bookworm: > Are you absolutely, positively, certain about that?! For any > other author, I would agree, but not JKR... > > Ravenclaw Bookworm LizVega here: That's exactly what I thought! With any other author I would've overlooked the mumbling as just that, mumbling from a man who's frightened of an even bigger man-Hagrid, but have we ever seen Vernon mumble in frustration? Ever? Even when Moody's bowler hat exposed the crazy eye in the last chapter of OOP? No! Vernon never mumbles! And, let's not forget that a variation of Mimbulus Mimbletonia as stated on the HP TCG- can we consider those to be canon?- is MIMBLE WIMBLE! The trading cards say that Mimble wimble is used to deter or interrupt a spell- or something like that- and then Hagrid tries to turn Dudley into a pig but only manges to give him a tail! I believe that the plant, and mimble wimble are connected. I find it hard to believe that some people still insist on underestimating the amount of clues that JO wrote into the books- remember, I'm a broken record now, sorry :), but she wrote about Harry and his world for five years before anything was published. I think it's entirely likely that clues about everything- even the prophesy- were weaved into PS! From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 19:07:22 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:07:22 -0000 Subject: The Animagi was Re: Giving the map to Lupin (Was: Lupin's vampire essay) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: >Um, no. The Prank was probably in their sixth year, but the Animagi outings began in the fifth, as Remus says in PoA, "Finally, in our fifth year, they managed it." Bookworm: The full quote is: "It took them [James and Sirius] the best part of three years to work out how to" become animagi....Peter needed all the help he could get...in our fifth year they managed it." (POA, p354, US hardcover) So by the end of their 3rd year or beginning of their 4th, James and Sirius were anamagi. It was Peter who couldn't do it until their 5th year. I think that Remus would have had to go to the Shrieking Shack every month to transform because Madam Pomfrey escorted him to the Whomping Willow. If they didn't continue that pattern, Madam Pomfrey, Dumbledore, etc. would have wondered why. (It is possible that Dumbledore already knew, but that's another topic...) Once in the Shack, the others would join Remus and lead him out again when the `coast was clear.' Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 19:19:47 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:19:47 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harrymyhero" wrote: > > kg wrote: > > > I guess the next proof you need for your theory is 1) whether Tom > > started calling himself Voldemort before or after he entered the > > chamber, and 2) if he created the diary before or after entering > the > > chamber. > > I believe he said he was already "Lord Voldemort" ... > > pg. 314 Am Ed, COS > "You see?" he whispered. "It was a name I was already using at > Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course. > > harrymyhero Bookworm: To answer your 2nd question, Tom created the diary after entering the chamber. (p312, US Hardcover) [Dumbledore] "'certainly kept an annoyingly close watch on me after Hagrid was expelled,' said Riddle carelessly. 'I knew it wouldn't be safe to open the Chamber *again* (my emphasis) while I was still at school. But I wasn't going to waste those longe years I'd spend searching for it. I decided to leave behind a diary...'" Ravenclaw Bookworm From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 19:23:40 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:23:40 -0000 Subject: Despised Lackey or Social Equal?: Snape's 'Respectability' In-Reply-To: <1e5.18a94e29.2d50cdde@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90184 Julie wrote: I've been wondering where would Snape's position as Head of Slytherin House place him in the social context of Wizarding Britain in general? Ignoring Snape's unpleasant appearance and demeanor, what type of status does a "job" like Head of House confer as opposed to just being a Potions professor/Master? Eloise responded: Teachers, at least school teachers, must be few of a kind in the WW. Are they therefore celebrities or > oddballs? Or simply nonentities? Hogwarts and the WW do to an extent seem to be locked into a somewhat > Victorian time warp. [Teaching] was very much the sort of career that would (I think) be undertaken by a younger brother, the one not going to inherit. Think Nicholas Nickleby where our hero, fallen on hard times and destitute, takes on a teaching position. Carol: I think that's a good analogy. But also consider what working for a living, even in a "genteel" position like teaching, did to the person's social status. Lucius Malfoy reminds me of the "gentlemen" in Jane Austen's novels who consider work of any kind beneath them, and for that reason I think he would see himself as socially superior to Snape. Also their relationship when they were both in Slytherin may affect their current friendship or whatever we should call it. Snape is considerably younger (four or five years), and that age difference would have shaped the way Lucius treated Severus in the two years during which they both attended Hogwarts. Severus would have been a precocious little boy and Lucius the presumed leader of the gang of Slytherins which he let Severus join. (I base "leader" on Malfoy's taking the lead in the Muggle baiting and in the raid on the DoM.) I think that's where Sirius's snide reference to Snape as Malfoy's "lap dog" comes in. He can't know how they interact as adults, but he does apparently know that Severus was Malfoy's "little pet" (which is what "lap dog" means) when they were boys. Julie: Wealth: We don't know from the books whether Snape has any income beyond what he earns as a potions instructor at Hogwarts (I wonder what the remuneration at such an exclusive school would be like?). He may have additional income derived from being a Potions Master (publication royalties, patents, consultation fees) or an inheritance. > Eloise: No. We know nothing and I would guess that in any case he lives a fairly frugal life, allowing for investment in exotic Potions ingredients, that is. We have no idea what the remuneration might be. Is it pretty poor, as one would expect for a teacher, or *is* it a job of high prestige? Carol: I agree that the teachers probably aren't paid a large salary, but they really don't need one. They have free room and board and no electric or water bill to pay. In any case, though, Snape and McGonagall can afford dress robes and Snape evidently has several. He wears a green one to at least one of the quidditch games and perhaps a different one to the feast at which the dress robes of the other teachers were contrasted with Lupin's shabby one. But the mere fact that he works for a living (setting aside Dumbledore's motives for wanting him at Hogwarts) seems to indicate that he isn't wealthy. That fits with the picture of a deprived childhood that we glimpse in the Pensieve. Julie: Family Background: I tend to agree with whomever said Snape's memories indicated a non-elite background . Since he was a Death Eater, he surely claims some degree of pure wizardly heritage. Eloise: I always envisaged him as coming form a pretty upper class background, myself. But class and money don't always equate. Carol: I'm not sure how you're defining "elite" and "non-elite" here, but my sense of WW aristocracy is that it's based primarily on blood, though money matters, especially if it's unearned income based on inheritance and investments. Monetarily, Snape is clearly not in Malfoy's league, but in terms of blood he must be at least a "half blood" like Harry (whose parents were a witch and a wizard even though one of them was Muggle-born) or Lucius would not have associated with him at Hogwarts. Also Draco seems to have a very good idea of who is and who is not Muggle-born (witness his treatment of Hermione). I don't think he would treat Snape as respectfully as he does if he didn't know Snape to be a pureblood like himself. Julie: I tend to read Snape (his dress, speech patterns, method of teaching, emphysis on respect and obedience) as someone with a chip on his shoulder, who's self-made (or re-invented), who has struggled for what he has and is very much on guard against loosing it, rather than born to wealth and power and easy social connections like the Malfoys. Eloise: Well, he's certainly struggled. It seems very clear that his family > background was less than ideal, both in terms of relationships and material comfort. And of course, he *has* reinvented himself, from ex-DE to Dumbledore's right hand man. . I think a lot of the chip is to do with Harry, a lot to do with the fact that so much of what he has done has been in secret and has necessarily gone unrecognised. Carol: I agree. But I think the re-invention goes further back. Professor Snape, with his sweeping grace and stern arrogance is very different from the skinny, stoop-shouldered teenager who was tormented by MWPP and went around throwing hexes at his enemies (who threw them at him, as well). He has learned to control his emotions (except on rare occasions when he allows the rage to boil over) and to control others. The re-invention began with becoming a DE and continued with becoming a spy and then a teacher and, as you say, Dumbledore's righthand man. The elevation to Head of Slytherin House probably completed his evolution in terms of personality. We also have to factor in occlumency and "mastery" of Potions, whether or not the title "Potions Master" is intended to reflect that mastery. Julie: Magical Ability: We've been told Severus Snape is a very powerful wizard, and at a fairly young age--he's not yet forty in a potentially 150+ life span--so we can probably safely assume that he's not yet reached his peak ability. He is also one of an exclusive and limited number of specialists in his field in Britain. Snape lacks the trappings of pretigious power that Lucius Malfoy displays, yet we really don't know how the two compare magically. Eloise: No, we don't (though I'd put my money on Severus any day). And we don't know how many people are aware of his ability, either. He specialises in a rather unshowy and apparently undervalued field of magic. Carol: My money is also on Snape, who clearly excels at DADA as well as Potions. Whatever his opinion of Charms and Transfiguration, I doubt that he really considers curses and countercurses to be "silly wand waving." Julie: So taking any combination of the sources of status where does that leave Snape? Eloise: Frustrated, I think. ;-) Carol: LOL. He's highly gifted and craves recognition (the DADA position, the Order of Merlin that he came so close to receiving). I hope his time will come. Eloise: If Dumbledore didn't appoint Snape to DADA because he thought it would bring out the worst in him (*if* that's the reason), then what exactly did he think making him Head of Slytherin House would do for him? But perhaps it's that he *does* understand him so well. Here is one place where he can have the recognition he so craves and in a pretty public form. Carol: Yes. But he does seem young for the position, so it's possible that he was the only professor from Slytherin House after his predecessor died or retired. Still, I agree that Dumbledore understands him and wants him to be relatively contented in what amounts to protective custody in Hogwarts. I also think that it serves Dumbledore's needs to have the Slytherin students respect Snape, regardless of how the others feel about him. Eloise: I also think that Lucius would support Snape as Head of House because he either knows or suspects that he may be a fellow DE or be sympathetic to the cause. I don't think that's ever been made clear. Carol: I'm almost certain that he thinks Snape is still a loyal Death Eater (Snape must have explained to him why he couldn't be at the graveyard in GoF) and that Malfoy is the means by which Snape finds out what LV is telling his Death Eaters. I don't have any proof of this, but I'm thinking of Snape's mission at the end of GoF and his words to Harry in one of the occlumency scenes in OoP. Julie: So I wonder. Would a combination of magical abilities, and what must be at least a respectable bloodline plus Head of House be enough to place Severus Snape on equal footing with someone like Lucius Malfoy? Eloise: So if Snape is from a respectable, purebloodline and he's apparently not betraying that inheritance, then I think that Lucius would treat him pretty much as an equal on that level. However even within that parity of social standing, money or the lack of it would play a part. For instance, regarding marriage, then I would expect Lucius to want his family to marry into other wealthy pure blood families, rather than into poor ones (unless there was a good political reason for it). I couldn't see Severus being Lucius' first choice to marry his (notional) sister, for instance, if a wealthier wizard with similar credentials came along. Carol: I think the whole concept of working for a living is at least as important to snobby Lucius as money per se--the old prejudice of the aristocracy against the bourgeoisie, in Muggle terms. I think there's a touch of patronization (is that a word?) in Malfoy's attitude toward Snape, though the only evidence I have for that is Sirius's catty reference to Snape as Malfoy's lap dog. (Okay. I know "catty" usually refers to women, but I think it fits her. "Doggy" won't do the trick.) We've never seen Snape and Malfoy together (movie contamination aside). Eloise: I think that basically the two of them would treat each other with the utmost respect and caution. I think their mutual history of which Snape definitely knows and Lucius might either know or else suspect is more important to their relationship than their respective positions in society. Carol: And there's also a mutual history at Hogwarts, which I envision as a little boy and the teenage mentor/protector who disappeared from his life at the end of his (Severus's) second year. I think that Malfoy influenced young Snape's decision to join the Death Eaters. He may even have engineered it. If so, then Snape assuredly has mixed feelings for Malfoy--the friend who tempted him with recognition for his talents and in so doing ruined his life. Julie: Snape is able to project a strong aura of power and intimidation in the books, besides the added impression of residual DE nastiness that Harry and gang know about from his past, but set that aside (and it can be as he was very careful, almost meek, in his dealings with Doris Umbridge). Carol: Meek? That's not how I read the scene. He clearly has as much contempt for Delores Umbridge as McGonagall does and is not about to let her control his class or to give her information that he regards as onone of her business. ("I suggest you ask Professor Dumbledore.") Umbridge intimidates Trelawney and confuses Hagrid, giving her grounds to report them as incompetent and suggest their removal. Snape gives her no such ammunition. Julie: Unaware of any Death Eater connections or Snape's reputation as a cold and nasty character, would someone like Lucius Malfoy or Neville's Grandmother, or Amelia Bones consider Snape of 'respectable' or 'proper' social standing? Carol: Malfoy doesn't belong in this list, as he knows Snape personally. As for Neville's grandmother, who has reason to hate the DEs for what they did to her son and daughter-in-law, I think the mere fact that he's Head of Slytherin House would be enough to alienate her. Amelia Bones also has reason to hate the DEs. I'm not saying that Slytherin = Death Eater, but I think the WW makes that connection. Now if he were Head of Gryffindor House (same blood, same money, same social standing) I think Neville's gran would treat him with distant politeness, not as a social equal but as a respectable person with whom she could sit down to tea without embarrassment. Julie: Or would he only be held in respect by other Slytherins (whose children he is overseeing/training, and even post-Hogwarts he would retain some power as Head of House for things like references and word-of-mouth recommendations)? Eloise: I would imagine that some non-Slytherins would hold him in a degree of suspicion as anti-Slytherin prejudice seems fairly strong among those from other houses, especially as a result of the last Voldemort war. Carol: And as for recommendations, remember his words to Crabbe in OoP (something like allowing Neville to suffocate might prevent Snape from giving Crabbe a job recommendation--bad paraphrase and no time to look it up!) Julie: Regardless of how Lucius and Severus interacted in school or as fellow Death Eaters (or spies), Lucius has a child who is sorted into Snape's House. I would assume that regardless of how the two men personally get along, Lucius would at least feign cordiality while Draco was in school, and somewhat vulnerable to his Head of House's wrath or interference. Eloise: Oh definitely. And Snape's treatment of Draco surely has something to do with the impression he wants to convey to Lucius. Carol: I agree. IMO, Snape's favoritism, especially toward Draco, has nothing to do with affection and everything to do with how he wants to be perceived by the parents of his Slytherin students, especially the DEs. Otherwise the sarcasm he reserves for Neville would be aimed at Crabbe and Goyle as well. I have no doubt that he privately holds them (and their fathers) in contempt for their incompetence and stupidity. Carol From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Feb 3 17:28:58 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:28:58 -0000 Subject: worse than a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90185 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: >x> > If the cockroach is associated with Lupin's Boggart, then the > cockroach is connected with the orb. The amusement has to do with > the orb and not with Snape. Right??? I'm asking if that would be > correct. At least that's how I'm reading it. > > Why would it be amusing for the moon to turn into a cockroach? Or > why would it be amusing for a prophecy orb to turn into a cockroach? > I guess what I'm trying to say is that whatever that person finds > amusing is still associated with that fear. It's the orb and > cockroaches. Not the cockroach and Snape. xx> > "K" Potion Cat here: Yes, the cockroach is associated with Lupin's boggart,because the cockroach or the orb/cockroach connection is funny to Lupin. However, originally I saw something else that made me think that Snape is associated with a cockroach or is a cockroach animagus. No, I don't want to believe it and I've almost talked myself out of it. But it was associated with the 2 events: Snape throwing cockroaches at Harry and with Lupin using cockroaches as a boggart defence. And it dawned on me that if Snape is a cockroach and Lupin knows it, then a cockroach would be funny to him. Particularly since Snape doesn't want him to teach at Hogwarts. It also blends together in the the boggart class when Lupin's cockroach turns into Neville's Snape. A different idea I've had is that perhaps cockroaches are part of the potion that he takes to resist the moon. So a simple cockroach defeating the power of the moon is funny. (If of course the orb is the moon.) Potioncat From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 19:43:26 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:43:26 -0000 Subject: McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Freeman, Louise Margaret" wrote: > Hmmm... wouldn't a teacher normally begin in September? Sounds like > McGonagall was a mid-year replacement for someone. This suggests that > something unfortunate happened to the previous Transfiguration teacher > mid-year. Or perhaps the headmaster; since Dumbledore was teaching > Transfiguration 50 years ago, he could have been in that position then moved > to the Headmaster post when it was vacated. McGonagall would have then been > hired to replace him. Bookworm: Good catch. It's possible that Headmaster Dippet had a heart attack or stroke, Dumbledore was promoted to Headmaster, then McGonagall was hired to preplace Dumbledore. What I would like to know is what McGonagall was doing during the decade (roughly) between leaving as a student and returning as a professor. Have there been any threads on this that I haven't found? Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 20:12:06 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:12:06 -0000 Subject: Runes eihwaz and ehwaz (WAS: Re: Hey! Yew!) In-Reply-To: <20040131005829.44409.qmail@web11509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meghan Chalmers-McDonald wrote: > Frost: > So all the talk about EIHWAZ made me curiouse. I looked it up. SOme places it looked more like a bit of lightning than others, so... meh... But then you read that it is the symbol for the "Yew tree." > Bookworm: Or the Yew is the symbol for the rune. I did some searching on the meaning of the runes after reading another thread, but it relates to this one too. The similarities to our favorite characters are striking. "I mistranslated 'ehwaz'," said Hermione furiously. It means 'partnership,' not 'defense.' I mixed it up with 'eihwaz.'" (OoP 715, Am. ed.). EIHWAZ http://www.tarotcam.com/runes/eihwaz.html Eihwaz (Yew tree.) Strength, reliability, dependability, trustworthiness. Enlightenment, endurance. Defense, protection. The driving force to acquire, providing motivation and a sense of purpose. Indicates that you have set your sights on a reasonable target and can achieve your goals. An honest man who can be relied upon. EIHWAZ is the turning point in the runic journey, and represents the transformation phase of the initiatory process. All rites of passage, particularly those marking the transition into adulthood, contain the symbolism of death, the idea being that one's former 'self' has died and given birth to a new persona. EIHWAZ is the passage through which we must enter the realm of Hell in order to gain the knowledge and acceptance of our own mortality, as well as those mysteries which can only be learned from the dark Lady of the dead. The process is a truly frightening one, but it is something we all must go through if we are to confront our deepest fears and emerge with the kind of wisdom that cannot be taught but must be experienced. Appearance: It looks like a enlongated ??Z??, standing on the point. Like a stylized lightning bolt ?? And from another site: http://www.nordic-life.org/nmh/runes/Ihwaz.htm It is a rare rune, hardly used in the texts, and one that is not found anywhere else before the year 400. Ihwaz was not commonly invoked. EHWAZ http://www.tarotcam.com/runes/ehwaz.html Ehwaz (Horse, two horses.) Transportation. Movement and change for the better. Gradual development and steady progress are indicated. **Harmony, teamwork, trust, loyalty.** An ideal marriage or partnership. EHWAZ represents energy and motion. In this case, however, there is also respect for the source of the power to be considered. This is not merely an impersonal energy source - it is a living, breathing thing whose needs and desires must be taken into consideration, rather than be simply used as a slave. This is the balance that must be achieved on the path of pure magic. Appearance: Like an elongated ????M?? - - So we have ??an honest man who can be relied on??, protection/defense, and a rite of passage, along with ??knowledge and acceptance of our own mortality?? and ??mysteries??. Then there is Harmony/teamwork/partnership (SHIPPERS have fun here ), and a warning to keep things in balance and not to take them for granted. Don??t you just love the hints and trivia JKR hides in the books? Ravenclaw Bookworm From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 20:18:38 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:18:38 -0000 Subject: The Animagi was Re: Giving the map to Lupin (Was: Lupin's vampire essay) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90188 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > >Um, no. The Prank was probably in their sixth year, but the > Animagi outings began in the fifth, as Remus says in PoA, > "Finally, in our fifth year, they managed it." > > LizVega here: Where is it stated in any book that the 'prank' Sirius played on Snape happened in the sixth year? Do we know for sure that it happened after the rest of the marauder's became animagi? I thought the only information we have on the matter is when Lupin/Sirius tells Harry and such that James found out about Sirius' trick, and went down the tunnel after him, but not before Snape saw Lupin as a werewolf. If the marauder's were already animagi, then wouldn't Sirius have been running the risk that Snape would have found out about the animagi too? I'm speculating, obviously (Unless there is a direct reference to the year when the 'prank' was played- then I'm just wrong!)but, wouldn't it be more likely that Sirius played the 'prank' before the marauder's could join Lupin themselves? From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Feb 3 19:35:33 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:35:33 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] clothing in the Potterverse (rather long) References: <1075750107.24791.38965.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000801c3ea8c$edac02e0$63e66151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 90189 Sigune wrote: > - Harry went to a perfectly 'normal' (i.e. Muggle) primary school. > Surely other wizard children (not to mention Muggle-borns) will have > done so, too. As far as we know there are no wizarding primary > schools. It has been suggested on other threads that wizard children > below the age of eleven receive private tutoring; but surely that > arrangement cannot suit every wizarding family? My guess is that even The only thing that makes me wonder about this possibility is that it would be a horrible breach of the Statute of Secrecy. I'm not speaking from experience here, but I would imagine it would be extremely difficult to make sure that primary school children keep schtum about their and their families' ability to do magic, especially given the number of references to that sort of thing in children's stories, fairy tales, and the like. I don't think that most MM families would have private tutors (though the aristocracy certainly would): it would just be that the parents would teach the children what they needed to know, literacy, numeracy, the domestic magic that's needed to function, and so on. > pureblood family, have their house in London. Although it is > (almost?) perfectly possible for magical folk to avoid all contact > with Muggles (seeing they have their own transport, their own radio > etc. etc.), I imagine that a fair number of them would in fact be in > touch with Muggles on a regular basis. I mean, even a witch or wizard There's a fair bit of canon evidence for this. The young Harry encounters a wizard or two in his early years, much to the Dursleys' horror. But I suspect that they use the same don't-notice-me magic that is used to make their homes etc unnoticeable. They'd see us, but we wouldn't notice them. > - As for clothes: maybe we are talking generation gaps here. I can > imagine young wizards or witches being sensitive to Muggle fashion, > whereas older ones may grow more conservative and go back to the good > old robe. Wearing Muggle(inspired) clothing might be a way for young > wizards and witches of expressing their youthfulness and distancing > themselves from their parents' generation - ideologically and I think this is more likely to be right than the idea that the Muggle element coming into the WW are in some way the arbiters of fashion. I'm an advocate of the "large" WW population theory, and within that theory it's evident that the number of entirely muggleborn children is very tiny by comparison with the number of wizard borns, too small to affect the culture on its own. If there was a large number coming in, you just wouldn't have the widespread ignorance of muggle behaviour that comes across so strongly in the books. > Maybe the adult wizards are simply losing their touch by being too > absorbed in the WW. Besides, if wizards indeed have twice the > lifespan of a Muggle, there can be little wonder that they can't keep > up with all the fashion changes in the Muggle world. > Besides I think they wouldn't be out of tune at some parties :). Can you lose your touch by being involved in your own world? From a WW p.o.v., it's perhaps people like Arthur Weasley who might be seen as out of touch because of his fascination with someone else's world! Maybe from a longer lifetime perspective, you're more likely to stick with what's tried and true rather than trends that come and go from year to year. > of great concern to me) I find that, although the robes may work > perfectly in a novel and are indeed the kind of clothing wizards are > identified with, they are a bit boring. Even taking into account that > you can vary cloth, colour, neckline etc., basically what you get is > a long dress that is sometimes combined with a cloak. Not visually > challenging at all (well, at least not to me). So I would ardently > defend the film designers' choices AND any wizard who decides to mix > some Muggle clothing with his/her wizarding getup. * You might also think about whether there are distinctively "ethnic" styles of wizard garb. Robes may be appropriate to European wizards, but what about African or Chinese wizards? > - As far as money is concerned: in CoS Hermione's parents change > Muggle money at Gringotts, I believe - or this might come from a JKR > interview - my memory is letting me down, but I am 100% sure that I > read somewhere that Gringotts change Muggle money. In any case I have > been wondering about such simple things as food as well: do wizards > buy their peas and potatos and steaks at strictly wizard shops? I > doubt it. So they would need Muggle money anyway. Once again I don't know how this would fit with the Statute of Secrecy. Who knows what the goblins do with muggle money - a fascinating topic to wonder about, that. But my own thoughts are that it's just not necessary for wizards to do business with muggles. Maybe there's some sort of wizards' market every week in various locations where wizard craftspeople and farmers come to sell their wares... > But I like to think that the WW is more mixed up with the Muggle > world than it appears at first sight in canon; wizards and Muggles > share, after all, their humanity, and the strict segregation between > them sounds very Voldemortish/purebloodish to me. And then there are > all those Muggleborn or mixed ancestry wizards and witches - what > kind of people would they be to simply discard all their Muggle > relations - school friends, neighbours, family etc. - once they > realise they have magic in their blood? The separation has gone on for a long time, for ten generations of Muggles. I think that even before that, given the persecution of wizards, there was an increasing de facto separation, in which the WW community kept to itself, precisely because the cultural differences were hard to bridge. I don't think it's in any way Voldemortish, though - that faction would probably have responded to persecution by fighting back and seeking to enslave and rule Muggledom. Once again, it's worth remembering that the number of muggleborn children each year is small - it would follow from the size of Hogwarts that there's less than 40 a year, very small in comparison with the number of non-wizard children. And that figure probably includes the children with one wizard parent as well. I'm sure that they would keep in touch with their parents (at least to the extent that everyone else does) though perhaps friends from junior school would fall by the wayside. I'm certainly not friends with anyone that I used to know back then, without changing cultures in between! > Erm - am I proving myself an arch-Muggle here :)? Remember that there are two perspectives, how muggles would see wizards, and how wizards do see muggles - by no means the same. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Feb 3 20:29:19 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:29:19 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Animagi was Re: Giving the map to Lupin (Was: Lupin... Message-ID: <54.21b51b2f.2d515e9f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90190 In a message dated 2/3/2004 3:24:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, lizvega2 at yahoo.com writes: Where is it stated in any book that the 'prank' Sirius played on Snape happened in the sixth year? ****************** Sherrie here: In PoA, Snape tells Dumbledore that Sirius proved himself capable of murder at sixteen years old. That would make him sixth year, I think. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 3 20:31:54 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:31:54 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew Power (Was: James Potter Bio Facts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90191 Big snip >Yes he is! It rather confuses me to read references to Pettigrew's > lack of magical ability all the time, when he does some impressive > magic in our faces. > Poor silly powerless Peter Pettigrew kills a whole street full of > Muggles, defeats Sirius and gets away transformed as a rat; > Poor silly powerless Peter Pettigrew brews a potion that restores old > Voldy to his body. > It seems to me Mssrs Moony, Padfoot and Prongs have a serious lack of > judgment when it comes to both friends (Pettigrew) and enemies > (Snape). > > Yours severely, > > Sigune I was re-reading OotP last night. When I read the section in Snape's Worst Memory" the description of Peter is chilling. He is looking at Snape "Hungrilly", he was watching in "awe", he was watching in "avid anticipation", etc. All of these descriptions of Wormtail point to who he really is. A coward biding his time, never acting on his own but lying in wait for others to have their backs turned to strike, or more accurately, to help someone else strike. I think Petigrew is incredibly powerful, he has proven that time and again, including when he was able (even though it was with help)to become an animagi. He appears to me to be a master manipulator. He wants what others have, cannot accomplish it himself so he allows others to think him stupid so they will help him get what he wants. I do not believe he was brave to cut off his hand for Voldemort. Leaving the discusting mass of ? to drown in the caldron and rescuing the son of your best friend, that would be brave. Not doing the bidding of someone horrible to save your own skin. I too wonder about the other marauders. It is obvious they were arrogant (at least James and Sirius were) and that they believed themselves invincible. When did Peter get to know Voldemort? for that matter when did Snape? Did Snape already hold a position outside of school that Peter coveted? Is that why he is so hungry? Or does he simple revel in the humiliation of another person? Whatever it all means I wonder who will turn out to be the "biggest bully in the playground" (POA US pg.370) and if Peter will be on his/her side or if he will have to "worm" his way out of trouble again. My original idea in this response had absolutely nothing to do with what I just wrote so I appologize if it seems off topic. My initial idea was to point out how much this character reminds me of Neville. Like many of JKR's characters Peter can be held up and compared to another with similar personality traits/abilities who makes very different choices. What would Peter have done in the Department of Mysteries? What will Neville do now that it is becoming clear that he is powerful? I think it makes a rather interesting show down if in the end the last two standing are none other than Peter Pettigrew and Neville Longbottom, two of the most underestimated and widely misunderstood wizards of their respective times. As for me i'd like to see Neville show Peter what it means to be brave and a friend. Sue, who had no idea she had so much pent up about the little worm. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 20:33:20 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:33:20 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ilubom" wrote: > > Snape may have just started at Hogwarts or is about to and > Dumbledore knows that he is a former death eater who has turned spy. > It is possible that LV thought that he was positioning Snape at > Hogwarts to spy on DD. DD can use Snape, probably with Snape's full > knowledge, to feed the information to LV. Snape, in accordance with > the plan, tells LV only the first part of the prophecy. He knows > that by doing so, he sets in motion LV's downfall. This is why DD > trusts him - what better proof can there be that he is no longer a > supporter of LV than by becoming the instrument of his downfall. > Snape would also be in perfect position to pass on information > without arousing suspicion - if he is working at Hogwarts it is not > at all extraordinary that he overheard the prophecy - there is no > reason why LV would not believe him. > > > Basically, the theory is that DD, with Snape's assistance set in > motion a chain of events that he knew was the only way to bring > about LV's downfall and in the process he sacrificed James and Lilly > (possibly with their knowledge/consent). Naturally, he would not > tell this to Harry - one could only imagine what his reaction would > be if he found out. Bookworm: This also explains something that has bugged me - if the prophecy was made before Harry's birth, why did Voldemort wait for more than 15 months before attacking him? Dumbledore would have known to send the Potters into hiding before Snape went to Voldemort. He (or Flitwick possibly) would also have had time to help Lily with any protection charms. A year would have given them time to research obscure charms and spells. Remember Voldemort's comment about the Death Eater 'who may have left me forever'? Hearing the entire prophecy would confirm that Snape hadn't told him the whole story. Ravenclaw Bookworm (imagining Harry's reaction *when* he finds out) From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 20:44:11 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:44:11 -0000 Subject: OOP weather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90193 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > We also have Jim McGuffin, the weatherman. No, I think we are suppose to be keeping an eye on the weather. Of course, I have been wrong before. :-) Bookworm: Unless you think about what a McGuffin is: McGuffin (aka: MacGuffin or maguffin) is a term for a Plot Enabling Device, i.e. a device or plot element in a movie that is deliberately placed to catch the viewer's attention and/or drive the logic of the plot, but which actually serves no further purpose - it won't pop up again later, it won't explain the ending, it won't actually do anything except possibly distract you while you try to figure out its significance. Sound familiar? Ravenclaw Bookworm From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Feb 3 20:51:03 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:51:03 -0000 Subject: Question: Baruffio and the buffalo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90194 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brian" wrote: Brian: > I think, at least in my American edition, that there's a mistake > here. The spell for levitation is "Wingardium Leviosa" and the > movement that accompanies it is "swish and flick." There is no "f" > in "Wingardium Leviosa." JKR could have had "swish and flick" on her > mind when she wrote the lines. Or she could mean that if one > says "fwish and slick" while swishing and flicking the wand, as could > happen if one is really struggling to get the movement down > (saying "swish and flick" all the while), one could end up with a > buffalo on his/her chest. "'Now don't forget that nice wrist movement we've been practising!' squeaked Professor Flitwick, perched on top of his pile of books as usual. 'Swish and flick, remember, swish and flick. And saying the magic words properly is very important too - never forget Wizard Baruffio, who said 's' instead of 'f' and found himself on the floor with a buffalo on his chest.'" (PS "Hallowe'en" p.126 UK edition) Geoff: I read this as a /general/ comment from Flitwick about speaking clearly, not just the Wingardium Leviosa spell. Even Harry learns that, if you don't speak clearly, things can go wrong, although he didn't finish up with a herbivore on him..... "With a roar, the fire turned emerald green and rose higher than Fred who stepped right into it, shouted 'Diagon Alley' and vanished. 'You must speak clearly, dear,' Mrs.Weasley told Harry as George dipped his hand into the flowerpot. 'And mind you get out at the right grate...'" (COS "At Flourish and Blotts" p,41 UK edition) The moral of this is, if you are casting a spell or travelling by Floo, don't stuff your mouth full of bacon butty before you say anything.... I now need an excuse to use "morphophonologically" in a sentence.... Geoff From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 3 20:55:48 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:55:48 -0000 Subject: The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90195 bboy wrote: > > Speculation on future events- > > > > Question in two parts, what do you think will happen to Umbridge as > a > > result of her actions before and at Hogwarts, and what do you hope > > will happen to her? > > > > This is a pet topic of mine. I like to think that Umbridge's life will resemble Rita Skeeter's. An outcast, no nifty little black bow on her mousy head, a job at the ministry bottling bird entrails for study in the potions office (although in an earlier post I did recommend a job as Centaur Liason in the Forbidden Forest). I do think she will be useful later. My hope is that she becomes book 6 and 7's running gag for the worst possible job. I do not think she will be back at the MOM as Fudge's assisstant in any capacity. Even corrupt politicians distance themselves from failed supporters the minute they fall from grace, and WAY too many children attend Hogwart's and will tell their parents exactly what Umbridge is capable of. I doubt that she will face any disciplinary action for the Dementor attack because their is no way (especially now) to prove that it was her who sent the Dementors. Azkaban would not satisfy me. A running bit envolving her constant humiliation would. Sue (who taught with a Delores Umbridge and never got to see her fired :() From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 20:59:14 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:59:14 -0000 Subject: The Animagi was Re: Giving the map to Lupin (Was: Lupin... In-Reply-To: <54.21b51b2f.2d515e9f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90196 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 2/3/2004 3:24:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, > lizvega2 at y... writes: > Where is it stated in any book that the 'prank' Sirius played on > Snape happened in the sixth year? > ****************** > Sherrie here: > > In PoA, Snape tells Dumbledore that Sirius proved himself capable of murder > at sixteen years old. That would make him sixth year, I think. > > Sherrie > > Lizvega here: Thanks for the correction...no I really mean that! hehe! It all gets so confusing...wonder how Jo keeps it all straight- and she knows soooooo much more than we do! > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From CoyotesChild at charter.net Tue Feb 3 21:02:56 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:02:56 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP weather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c3ea99$2351b8c0$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 90197 > Bookworm: > Unless you think about what a McGuffin is: > > McGuffin (aka: MacGuffin or maguffin) is a term for a Plot Enabling > Device, i.e. a device or plot element in a movie that is > deliberately placed to catch the viewer's attention and/or drive the > logic of the plot, but which actually serves no further purpose - it > won't pop up again later, it won't explain the ending, it won't > actually do anything except possibly distract you while you try to > figure out its significance. > > Sound familiar? > > Ravenclaw Bookworm Iggy here: A bit of additional info on McGuffin. The McGuffin device was originated by Alfred Hitchcock in one of his movies (I, unfortunately, don't remember which... it was one of his espionage thrillers.) It was placed in the film as something designed to deliberately mislead the audience into thinking that the device itself was a main plot point. It's similar to a red herring, but is actually used more as a central aspect rather than a peripheral one. Hitchcock used the concept with such brilliance and style that it became a popular term for a deliberately misleading aspect of a movie. (It worked its way, eventually, into popular enough terminology that it was added into the dictionary.) Iggy McSnurd From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Feb 3 21:05:03 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 21:05:03 -0000 Subject: The Animagi was Re: Giving the map to Lupin (Was: Lupin... In-Reply-To: <54.21b51b2f.2d515e9f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 2/3/2004 3:24:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, > lizvega2 at y... writes: > Where is it stated in any book that the 'prank' Sirius played on > Snape happened in the sixth year? > ****************** Sherrie: > In PoA, Snape tells Dumbledore that Sirius proved himself capable of murder > at sixteen years old. That would make him sixth year, I think. > Geoff: Not necessarily. Pupils who are in what is now Year 11 (the old Fifth Year) and coming up to GCSE examinations are those folk whose 16th birthday falls between 1st September and 31st August of the year in which they are the year. When they enter the Sixth Form they are already 16. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Feb 3 21:16:15 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 21:16:15 -0000 Subject: Colin's camera? In-Reply-To: <20040203122954.EXRS25581.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90199 Geoff: An interesting point which has re-occurred to me after following this thread is that it would appear that Dumbledore does not seem to know how to handle a camera. "'The three of them stared down at Colin. Then Dumbledore leaned forward and prised the camera out of Colin's rigid grip. 'You don't think he managed to get a picture of his attacker?' said Professor McGonagall eagerly. Dumbldore didn't answer. He prised open the back of the camera. 'Good gracious!' said Madam Pomfrey. A jet of steam had hissed out of the camera. Harry, three beds away, caught the acrid smell of burnt plastic." (COS "The Rogue Bludger" p.135 UK edition) If DD wanted to see if Colin had taken any pictures, the /last/ thing he would do would be to prise open the back of the camera..... Unless the Dumbledore conspiracy theorists feel that he didn't want any photos to be seen? Geoff: From belijako at online.no Tue Feb 3 21:19:26 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 21:19:26 -0000 Subject: worse than a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90200 K wrote: So what is Lupin's fear? Is it his true identity or is it the future? I'm not really sure. Could it not be both? If you are a believer in the James/Lupin switch, would not James be afraid of the prophecy orb (Harry's ?) and of revealing his true indentity? Berit replies: Sometimes I think the simplest, most straightforward explanation is the better one :-) In this case, I don't think Lupin's boggart was a crystal ball. I think it was the moon just as he says himself and just as Hermione correctly deduced. Why did Lupin flee when Trelawney offered to crystal-gaze him? Well, what is the simple and most obvious explanation to that, based on canon? Anyone in their right mind would flee if Sybil offered to foresee their future :-)) I would. And so would Harry, if he could... Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 20:06:59 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:06:59 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and Blood Lines In-Reply-To: <401FD57C.3060105@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: > drjuliehoward wrote: > > I know this may have been covered, but I have been away awhile. > > > > I was wondering about that horrible punishment Umbridge had for > > Harry, the quill that wrote lines in blood on the back of his hand. > > Does anyone else think this is symbolic > > > > Julie > > > > I don't think it is especially symbolic of anything except her sadism. > > I am bothered by that quill. It is clearly a Dark Arts object. Where did > she get it? I bet it is illegal. I wanted Lee Jordan and Harry to go to > MacGonagall about it, so Umbridge's use of it on students went on record. > > That b**** Umbridge is insane, cruel and such a brilliant fictional > creation. I think this even though I had a teacher just like her; > without the magic of course. What a delight to read OOP and loathe her! > > digger AMEN to that! I bet our dear Ms. Umb**** visits Knockturn Ally on a regular basis. Julie From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Feb 3 21:26:50 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 16:26:50 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Animagi was Re: Giving the map to Lupin (Was: Lupin... Message-ID: <75.21dc23a2.2d516c1a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90202 In a message dated 2/3/2004 4:19:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, gbannister10 at aol.com writes: Sherrie: > In PoA, Snape tells Dumbledore that Sirius proved himself capable of murder > at sixteen years old. That would make him sixth year, I think. > Geoff: Not necessarily. Pupils who are in what is now Year 11 (the old Fifth Year) and coming up to GCSE examinations are those folk whose 16th birthday falls between 1st September and 31st August of the year in which they are the year. When they enter the Sixth Form they are already 16. ********** Sherrie, again: That may be the case IRL, but it appears to me that Hogwarts students' ages correspond with their years - or rather, with the beginning of their years. First years are 11, Seconds are 12, and so on, though they will most likely have birthdays during the year. We know Angelina, for example, turned 17 in October of her sixth year (GoF, p. 230 UK paper) - therefore, she was 16 when that year began. We can also infer that the Prank hadn't happened yet at the time of "Snape's Worst Memory", so Sirius could not yet have turned 16 at the end of his fifth (O.W.L.s) year. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 21:45:22 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 21:45:22 -0000 Subject: OOP weather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > Unless you think about what a McGuffin is: > > McGuffin (aka: MacGuffin or maguffin) is a term for a Plot Enabling > Device, i.e. a device or plot element in a movie that is > deliberately placed to catch the viewer's attention and/or drive the > logic of the plot, but which actually serves no further purpose - it > won't pop up again later, it won't explain the ending, it won't > actually do anything except possibly distract you while you try to > figure out its significance. > > Sound familiar? "K" But it's so much more interesting to think how the weather can be in a fantasy land than what it is like in the real world. ~~"Gallopin' Gorgons, that reminds me," said Hagrid... With his tongue between his teeth he scribbled a note that Harry could read upside down: Dear Professor Dumbledore, Given Harry his letter. Taking him to buy his things tomorrow. WEATHER'S HORRIBLE. (my emphasis) Hope you're well. Hagrid ss/ch 4/pg 52 Personally I don't believe it's just a casual talk of weather going on here. ~~For a split second Harry thought he had done magic without meaning to, despite the fact that he'd been resisting as hard as he could - then his reason caught up with his senses - *he didn't have the power to turn off the stars*. oop/ch 1/pg 16/us I'll stick by my original statement that there is more to the weather than we think. IMO Moldy Voldy and probably Harry can have an affect on the weather. Who knows, maybe McGuffin will make another appearance. "K" From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 21:56:28 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 21:56:28 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Boggart/ was worse than a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90204 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > > Sometimes I think the simplest, most straightforward explanation is > the better one :-) "K" That's not usually the explanation I look for! :-) Berit: >In this case, I don't think Lupin's boggart was a > crystal ball. I think it was the moon just as he says himself and > just as Hermione correctly deduced. Why did Lupin flee when Trelawney > offered to crystal-gaze him? Well, what is the simple and most > obvious explanation to that, based on canon? Anyone in their right > mind would flee if Sybil offered to foresee their future :-)) I > would. And so would Harry, if he could... "K" I just think there's so much more to Lupin and I still say it's an orb. I notice in OoP that Lupin's boggart still hasn't changed. ~~Lupin came running into the room... Pulling out his own wand he said, very firmly and clearly, "Riddikulus!' Harry's body vanished. A silvery orb hung in the air over the spot where it had lain. Lupin waved his wand once more and the orb vanished in a puff of smoke. oop/ch 9/pg 176/us Wonder if that orb would have turned into a cockroach again if Lupin had given it time? "K" Always looking for the strange and unexpected in HP. From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 20:19:58 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:19:58 -0000 Subject: Albus Dumbledore is NOT evil. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90205 Hey everyone! There have been quite a few threads of late about how DD might be evil, and I just came across this quote of JKR's disputing the theory. (Actually I've read this interview before, but I forgot about it >_<) Evan Solomon: "Do you have more fun writing the evil characters? Because Lord Voledmort [the sinister wizard who killed Harry's parents] is the quintessential evil character." JKR: "Yeah, he's a bad one. Do I have more fun? I loved writing Dumbledore and he is the epitome of goodness. But I loved writing Rita." And there is also the interview where JKR said she puts a lot of her own opinions through DD. Anyway, there's that for people to chew over. :-) ~ Hitomi From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 20:11:06 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:11:06 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew Power (Was: James Potter Bio Facts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90206 Mandy wrote: > Hear! Hear! As a big fan of Peter Pettigrew I am always quick to > jump to his defense as a great Wizard. Despicable person, yes, but > powerfully magical. > > Time and time again people surrounding Peter Pettigrew underestimate > him much, to their eventual horror. Peter is not, by any stretch of > the imagination, weak! His only 'mistake' is to be insecure. He > wanted others to like him too much, and when they didn't, he saw to > it that they paid for it. Hitomi: Ok, to be honest, when I first read your opinion, it disturbed me. And my argument is going to only actually be a difference of opinion, but also backed up by JKR a bit. Everyone is of course, entitled to their own opinion and beliefs, but I feel it necessary to give my drastically different point of view. In discussing Peter Pettigrew, and those of his ilk, in an interview, JKR had this to say: "Is evil attractive? Yes, I think that's very true. Harry has seen the kind of people who are grouped around this very evil character. I think we'd all acknowledge that the bully in the playground is attractive. Because if you can be his friend, you are safe. This is just a pattern. Weaker people, I feel, want that reflected glory. I'm trying to explore that." Peter's insecurity is not his only weakness. To be perfectly honest, we don't actually know if he was insecure, if he actually thought less of himself. We know Neville is insecure, for obvious reasons. But I think that it is a profound mistake to believe Peter is the way he is due to insecurity. Insecure people certainly do not turn into mass murderers as a rule. I know you called him a despicaple person, but Peter happens to be one of the characters I hate most in this series, and I'll explain why. Peter *is* weak. And I don't mean magically, and I don't think his friends necessarily meant magically. I think they saw in him what JKR has written into his character. Peter takes the easiest road. It's easier to hang around the "bullies," so to speak. To be protected by that reputation, or "reflected glory." Peter didn't have to be insecure to want that type of security. Even powerful people fear. As long as Peter hung around James and Sirius, no one would could pick on the little, overweight boy. But for all we know, Peter probably actually believes he deserves the "reflected glory," that it is his due. Peter's foil, is of course, Neville. Harry see's Neville's face as Peter, when he first imagines Sirius' betrayal of his parents in Book 3 (before Harry discovers the truth). And, as we know, Neville is insecure; he is the overweight, awkward, blundering boy of his class. Does that make him weak magically? No, it just makes him insecure. Which is my half-formed theory of why some people would like him to be "the One" instead of Harry. As I've said before, people love the under-dog. But despite Neville's, at times, failings, he never hides behind Harry, or Hermione for that matter. He glady accepts their help, but he does try to stand up for himself, he doesn't become their friend in order to recieve their protection. Most of the time, he doesn't even hang around them that much, at least not all that much until Book 5. But more than likely, Peter just became James's and Sirius' friend out of fear. It's far easier to be their friend than their enemy, and he couldn't possibly have deluded himself into believing James and Sirius were wonderful people. They weren't terrible people, they didn't delight in evil or anything so obvious, and they picked on those whom they believed deserved it, such as Mr. Dark-Arts- Himself-Snivellus-Snape. But they were arrogant, cruel to those such as Snape and those they didn't like; and as we all know, there is nothing more cruel than a child in all its purity. Most children don't understand compassion, they haven't been hurt enough, and James and Sirius are no exception to the rule. That's why I've always viewed Harry as different - he knows what it is to be abused and neglected. Neville does as well. That's why I don't excuse characters such as Snape and Peter. They were abused, yes, but they took the easy road, and now abuse others. Snape less so, but my sympathy is limited for such characters. Harry would never have hated Snape the way he does, had he ever showed even an ounce of human decency towards Harry. You can argue Snape saved Harry's life, and worked to save Sirius', but then I could argue DD said Snape saved Harry's life out of a sense of duty, the same goes for that of Sirius', because they are both members of the Order. Did Snape actually want to save either of them? I find it highly unlikely. He hates them too much. He views saving lives as a decision - a matter of right vs. wrong. Harry just saves lives, because that's what you do. He can't just watch someone die, even if he hates them. Do I think Harry would work to save Draco's life? Perhaps not as strenuously as he worked to save Sirius' in Book 5 (when he thought Sirius to be in the Department of Mysteries), but I know he'd sacrifice his own life for Draco's, or Dudley's, and probably even for Snape's. And therein lies the difference. But back to my point, James and Sirius were typical children, and then typical teenagers. I just graduated from highschool, and I'm a Japanese minority, one of the "smart" kids, and I know what the cruelty of my peers can be. But had Pettigrew EVER cared for them, he would never have been able to do what he did. Mandy wrote: > James and Sirius made that mistake, seeming to ignore his abilities, > which were as good as theirs, and making fun of him. Hitomi: Peter's abilities were as good as theirs, because they helped him. They helped him become an animagus (Book 3). Mandy wrote: ""Put that > away will you? Said Sirius finally, as James made a fine catch and > Wormtail let out a cheer. "Before Wormtail wets himself from > excitement." Wormtail turned slightly pink....." Snapes Worst Memory, > page 645, OopT, US Edition. Comments like that may seem like nothing > to those speaking them, but to those on the receiving end, they cut > like a hot knife, sudden, sharp and terribly painful. And this was a > moment of happiness for the group! I can imagine how they treated > Peter when they were annoyed or angry. Peter eventually turned his > back on them and walked toward a mentor who promised him so much > more, I imagine treated him with respect (at least for a while) and > gave him some of the power he craved. James ended up dead and Sirius > in prison. Hitomi: This is, in my opinion, a gross over-sympathetic view. Peter did turn his back on his "friends," and James and Sirius were certainly not great friends back then. But they grew up, they learned better, and they became decent people. And THAT is when Peter betrayed them. And not just James. Lily and their one-year-old son. As I said, he could not have ever possibly loved them to be able to do such a thing, no matter how James and Sirius had hurt him in the past. People love to over-sympathize with those that are bullied, because this is one of the few instances in the series that we can truly relate to. Most of Harry's situations we can't, they're too unreal. And Peter and Snape were bullied, but that does NOT excuse Snape having ever become a Death Eater, or his obvious cruelty to his students. He favors the Slytherins, but he still doesn't treat them kindly; he just... tolerates them, and favors them as a way to torture the Gryffindors more. Snape has become what he hated - the arrogant bully. It might be understandable, and Snape might not be a bad person, but it isn't justifiable. Just as Peter's actions are not. Far less so, actually. And I highly doubt that Voldemort was ever kind to Peter. He probably just promised him that "reflected glory," and Peter went running, like the weak idiot he is. He even said in Book 3, that to not be LV's follower was equivalent to suicide. His friends weren't the strongest anymore, to hang around them was to remain vulnerable. To become LV's follower was to become safe. Peter values his life over anyone else's, over all else. That's arrogance, not insecurity. He believes his life to be worth more than goodness, than the lives of those he supposedly "loves," than the life of a one-year-old boy who had not yet had the chance to live. Sirius admitted he would have died for Peter. He said James would have as well. Peter turned his back on their love, however badly they may have expressed it. And he turned towards the epitome of hate. Peter is beyond despicable. He is evil. He has embraced that side of humanity - the easiest road to take. The road to hell is wide and open. I guess I just agree with Dante (in his "Divine Comedy"/"Inferno"). The deepest circle of hell is where betrayers reside (in Dante's work Judas and Brutus are down there with Lucifer himself). At the very least, LV is honest about what he is. He doesn't pretend to be anything else. Peter betrayed James, Lily, and Harry, he killed twenty innocent Muggles, sent Sirius to Azkaban, murdered Cedric, brought LV back to life, as well as betrayed the entire Order of fourteen years ago with his lies. And if there is ever someone stronger than LV, he would turn his back on LV immediately, and try to "befriend" them. At least Harry knows what he is. You will find no sympathy, and little empathy, in me for Wormtail. Mandy wrote: > Harry underestimated Peter in PoA, showing mercy on a man begging for > his life. That resulted in LV resurrection in GoF much to Harry's > horror. I'm not blaming Sirius, James and Harry for Peter's > behavior. Peter is solely responsible for his decisions and actions. Hitomi: Harry didn't underestimate Peter. He just would not see him murdered, especially at the hands of Sirius. He would not let himself nor Sirius become what they depise. A murderer. Which is why Harry doesn't really want to kill LV, he just wants him stopped. Harry doesn't want to murder anyone. And he doesn't want to be responsible for killing someone. Why do you think Sirius' death tears him up so much? He blames himself. He believes Sirius would still be alive if not for him. And I don't think people underestimate Peter anymore. They know what he's capable of now. But Peter is predictable. Just look for the most powerful person, and there you will find Peter Pettigrew. The name Wormtail really does fit him. I don't expect anyone to share my strong feelings of dislike for this character. I just can't understand how you could possibly like him. ~ Hitomi, who sticks Peter in the same category as Bellatrix, Lucius, and Umbridge Q: "Some people say good characters are boring and evil characters are always the more interesting. There's the famous line about Milton and Paradise Lost: God is a bore and the devil is interesting." JKR: "Well, Harry is good. I personally do not find Harry boring at all. He has his faults. Ron and Hermione are very good characters... but no, I'm not bored by goodness." From pscospoagofootp at aol.com Tue Feb 3 21:34:09 2004 From: pscospoagofootp at aol.com (pscospoagofootp at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 16:34:09 EST Subject: DD an animagus Message-ID: <8.44d89e81.2d516dd1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90207 I have been a lurker for a while and I enjoy all the different theories that are put forth in this forum. And I have a few of my own and I am going to share one that I have had since reading gof that was reinforced in ootp. Dumbledore is an animagus. Most likely a bee or wasp. My proof - At the beginning of Harry Potter's History of Magic O.W.L. there was a wasp in the upper windows. American Version of OOTP pg725 line 5 and also I think that is how he can become invisible without an invisibility cloak. (pardon for not having the reference) And also his last name is old English for bumblebee. Sorry if this was scatter brained. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 22:33:54 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 22:33:54 -0000 Subject: ... Lackey or Equal?: The Master In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brian" wrote: > > Brian replies: > Your post touches on an issue that I've seen before, Snape's > designation as Potions Master. My impression, based on two things, > is that Master is a general title that could be applied to all fully > qualified male teachers in the school. ...edited... > > Now it's true that Snape is the only one referred to as "master." > JKR's exclusive application of this traditional title to Snape could > be significant. > bboy_mn: Let's not forget that the title of 'Master' pre-dates all educational degrees, and in the ancient and modern world carries far more meaning than simply being an honorific. Today we still have Master Craftsmen and Master Tradesmen as in Master Electrician, Master Plumber, Master Draftsmen (artist), and Master Boilermaker/Steamfitter. The Craftmans Guilds and the Apprentice/Journeyman/Master designation represent one the oldest recognised certification of skill in the western world. Now let's look at Potions relative to other subjects taught at Hogwarts. I can very easily see the existance of a Potion Maker's Guild that oversees the certification and on-the-job training of potions makers. But I don't seet that applying to transfigurations or charms with equal ease; these are too broad and general to warrant a Guild of their own. Now there may be some Guilds related to the application of transfigurations and charm for a specific purpose; example; a Master Builder's Guild - construction of buildings and other structures by magic. In the context of Hogwarts, potions is an applied science whereas Transfigurations is more a theoretical science which includes the teaching of applied examples. The only other areas where I could see the Master Guilds as appropriate would be Herbology. Applied Herbology is very much like applied potions, it requires great knowledge and skill. Another area, although it's not specifically taught at Hogwarts, would be medicine. I suspect that medicine in the wizard world follows the Apprentice model of on-the-job training. One trains under a Master Healer for a certain number of years until your personal Master and the Master Healer's Guild decide that you are finally qualified to carry the title of "Master". In my view, the general nature of Potions lends itself well to the Master Potion Maker's Guild model. In discussion occupations in the wizard world and the apparent historical context that the wizard world models, the Craftsman/Tradesman Guild would be far more dominant that educational degrees. That could very easily explain why there are no wizarding universities in the wizard world. > Brian continues: > > As for Snape's social position, ...edited... bboy_mn: Snape and Lucius- They are certainly not social equals as Malfoy is very rich and powerful. However, that doesn't not make Snape inferior; he is certainly not a 'commoner'. He certainly commands his own degree of respect as a teacher, head of house, Master Potions maker, as an assumed pureblood, and relative to Lucius, as a former Death Eater. Just as a Duke and a Baron are not social equals, they are both 'nobility' and have significant social status. The Duke just happens to have more of it, as well as, in all likelihood, more money, influence, and power. Snape and Draco- I think Snape favors Draco for a variety of reason; he is the son of a fellow Death Eater, Draco is a Slytherin, Draco is from a very prominent powerful well respected family, Draco is smart and does well in school, Draco is not Harry, Draco doesn't like Harry, etc.... As far as Draco's intelligence, it seems that he does well in all his classes and in general, is a top student. Regarding the comments by his father, it doesn't seem as if Draco's marks are lacking in general, only that he was beat by a muggle. In addition, we all know there is a big difference between having intelligence and being smart; smart in the sense of wise. Also, being intelligent and capable in school in no way implies a person will have common sense, applied smarts, or courage. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Feb 3 22:59:53 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 22:59:53 -0000 Subject: The Animagi was Re: Giving the map to Lupin (Was: Lupin... In-Reply-To: <75.21dc23a2.2d516c1a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90209 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > Geoff: > Not necessarily. Pupils who are in what is now Year 11 (the old Fifth > Year) and coming up to GCSE examinations are those folk whose 16th > birthday falls between 1st September and 31st August of the year in > which they are the year. When they enter the Sixth Form they are > already 16. > ********** > Sherrie, again: > > That may be the case IRL, but it appears to me that Hogwarts students' ages > correspond with their years - or rather, with the beginning of their years. > First years are 11, Seconds are 12, and so on, though they will most likely have > birthdays during the year. We know Angelina, for example, turned 17 in > October of her sixth year (GoF, p. 230 UK paper) - therefore, she was 16 when that > year began. We can also infer that the Prank hadn't happened yet at the time > of "Snape's Worst Memory", so Sirius could not yet have turned 16 at the end > of his fifth (O.W.L.s) year. Geoff: Your interpretation agrees with what I said - I have commented on the age business before but I haven't time to track my message number tonight. To summarise, a pupil entering the First Year should have reached eleven no later than 31st August of that year so, during their First Year, they will become 12, so that when they enter the Second Year, they are already 12... and so on hence pupils coming into the Lower Sixth are 16 - which fits quite correctly with Angelina who is 17 in the October of the First Year Sixth. Sirius must therefore have been sixteen when he came into the Sixth Form - at the latest he could have a birthday during the summer holidays. From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Feb 4 07:04:53 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:04:53 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Animagi was Re: Giving the map to Lupin (Was: Lupin... References: <75.21dc23a2.2d516c1a@aol.com> Message-ID: <004701c3eaed$36a29800$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 90211 "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva." ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] The Animagi was Re: Giving the map to Lupin (Was: Lupin... > Sherrie, again: > > That may be the case IRL, but it appears to me that Hogwarts students' ages > correspond with their years - or rather, with the beginning of their years. > First years are 11, Seconds are 12, and so on, though they will most likely have > birthdays during the year. We know Angelina, for example, turned 17 in > October of her sixth year (GoF, p. 230 UK paper) - therefore, she was 16 when that > year began. We can also infer that the Prank hadn't happened yet at the time > of "Snape's Worst Memory", so Sirius could not yet have turned 16 at the end > of his fifth (O.W.L.s) year. > K But he could according to your argument. If Angelina turned 17 in her 6th year then she must have turned 16 in the October of her *fifth* year. K From pjcousins at btinternet.com Tue Feb 3 23:24:32 2004 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:24:32 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow Playback Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90212 How does Dumbledore have such a good interpretation, (if not knowledge), of the events at Godric's Hollow ? Other posts have mentioned missing 24 hours. What is perhaps DD's prized possession? I wonder if, in those 24 hours, DD took his pensieve and touched Harry's brow with his wand and extracted Harry's recent memories. DD would then be able to play them back, (as with the prophecy), and this is how DD learnt of Voldemort's vaporisation. The WW had to learn somehow of LV's vapour form downfall. I suggested months ago that a witness to the event was Frank Longbottom, which led to his and his wife's torture by the DE's. Frank also would have alerted DD. But the pensieve is becoming a very prominent tool, (and wouldn't we all like one), and may be a better theory. We know Harry witnessed his own AK because he can recall the green flash, (I mean he wasn't asleep). Maybe DD extracting Harry's memories caused the famous scar, although I am favouring the Rune theory that is now gathering pace. Does this theory explain DD's knowledge ? Phil From nobradors at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 23:54:54 2004 From: nobradors at hotmail.com (nuriaobradors) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:54:54 -0000 Subject: Sirius-Weasley Cousin-ness Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90213 hem hem Hi, I don't know whether this issue has been brought up before - if it has, I'll thank the kind listee who can direct me to the right thread. In Oop, chapter 6, upon Harry's surprise from finding Narcissa and Sirius are first cousins, Sirius explains how pure blood families are interrelated and examples (is that a verb in English?) : "Molly and I are cousins by marriage and Arthur's something like my second cousin once removed". The second part of the sentence is very clear (as long as Sirius isn't messing family relations up): Arthur would be Sirius's second cousin child, either from Mrs Black side, or on some Mr Black's *female* relatives. (none of my second cousins, for instance, has the same surname as me, and only one of my first cousins has). Now, my assumption here is that by saying "Molly and I are cousins by marriage" Sirius does NOT refer to her marriage to Arthur. My reasons to assuming this are: 1. The sentence then should have probably been "Molly and I are cousins by marriage *because* or *since* Arthur's something like my second cousin once removed", or "Molly and I are cousins by marriage, Arthur's something like my second cousin once removed, see"; or plainly "Arthur's something like my second cousin once removed, so Molly and I are cousins by marriage". 2. Saying that Arthur's his cousin makes it automatically obvious that Molly is her cousin by marriage. The possibilities, then, are as follows: 1. Molly's cousin to Sirius by Marriage with *another* of Sirius's cousins (very Star Wars, as JKR would say? Yet it throws a new range of possibilities... married to Arthur's brother first, had Bill and Charlie... First husband dies, finds console in his muggle loving brother, end up in love, married and having 5 more children... shame and scandal in the family that wipes the weasleys out of the tapestry) 2. Molly's cousin to Sirius by Marriage because her brother or sister is married to one of Sirius's cousins. The thing, then, is *who* those two could be. Could we have Molly Malfoy -Weasley? Lestrange- Weasley? Either that or Sirius really find it tricky to determine family grades of relative-ness. ;) Cheers, Nuri From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 00:25:05 2004 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 00:25:05 -0000 Subject: FILK: It's Winky Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90214 Anyone old enough to remember the old jingle "It's Slinky" ? Well, here it is, with the original words: http://www.messiah.edu/hpages/facstaff/barrett/slinky/slinky.wav Here is the midi, in case you want it without the words: http://www.geocities.com/chi_girl3205/Slinky.mid Now, here is "It's Winky" Who sits and cries with big brown eyes The Crouches' caretaker, she. Refuses pay, the House Elf way? Everyone knows it's Winky. Batlike ears and butterbeers And loyalty put to the test. Tomato nose and filthy clothes? Everyone knows its Winky. It's Winky, It's Winky She never asked to be free. It's Winky, It's Winky Reluctant elf employee. (repeat three times) Constance Vigilance (ching, ching - playing with my Slinky) From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 00:46:35 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 00:46:35 -0000 Subject: Sirius-Weasley Cousin-ness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nuriaobradors" 1. Molly's cousin to Sirius by Marriage with *another* of Sirius's > cousins (very Star Wars, as JKR would say? Yet it throws a new range > of possibilities... married to Arthur's brother first, had Bill and > Charlie... First husband dies, finds console in his muggle loving > brother, end up in love, married and having 5 more children... shame > and scandal in the family that wipes the weasleys out of the tapestry) > > 2. Molly's cousin to Sirius by Marriage because her brother or sister > is married to one of Sirius's cousins. The thing, then, is *who* > those two could be. Could we have Molly Malfoy -Weasley? Lestrange- > Weasley? > > Either that or Sirius really find it tricky to determine family > grades of relative-ness. ;) > > Cheers, > > Nuri This is a very interesting theory. I do not recall, and I do not have the first book handy, if Molly Weasly's hair color is ever mentioned. Perhaps she is blonde? I like the Malfoy connection and the idea that the first two children are from a previous marriage. In GOF she refers to getting a "telling off" by the Fat Lady for coming in at 4:00 in the morning but I do not remember if she was with Arthur or if we just assumed she was. It could explain the age difference between Charlie and Percy. I do recall, however, that Bill told DD at the end of GOF that he would "tell Dad" what had happened and he obviously meant Arthur Weasley. I really can't wait for all of this geneology to be explained, I think we are in for some major surprises. Even those of us who obsessively track these things. Sue From tiger_queen429 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 00:51:16 2004 From: tiger_queen429 at yahoo.com (tiger_queen429) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 00:51:16 -0000 Subject: Why SPEW will never work Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90216 When I first started reading GoF, I really liked the idea of Hermione in SPEW, but as the book went on, I started to not like the idea as much anymore. Then, when I read OoP, I really started to dislike Hermione and where she was taking SPEW. This is when I began to realize that SPEW would never work out, at least not in the time frame of these books. As I read posts about Hermione and SPEW, most of the discussion centered around if it was right,or important for her to do so. I read nothing about the overall success of her movement. In any society, oppostion to reforms in that society will exist. But at the same time there would be support for those reforms. Yet in the wizarding world no such support exists even from one of the biggest magical creature lovers out there,Hagrid. At first it really struck me that I would dislike an anti-slavery movement. Now I realize what I disliked about SPEW: the house elfs did not want to be free themselves. I think that for any movement giving powers to the underpriviladged needs the cooperation of the underprivilaged group. The history of slavery through out human history contains many tales of run away slaves and slave revolts. In Latin America, for example, African slaves formed independant communiities in opposition to slavery. In the United States, many slave revolts occured, at the same time as abolitionist helped slaves escape with the Underground Railroad. The point I'm trying to make is that there would have been no Underground Railroad without the slaves willing and wanting to travel on it. I see Hermione as the abolitionist trying to free slaves, and the house-elfs as the slaves. But the clear difference is that house-elfs are not "traveling on the Underground Railroad". With Dobby's example this becomes a bit more clear in my mind. Dobby wanted freedom from the Malfoys which he could only get by getting his freedom. Now that he has his freedom, he still wants to work(like ever other house-elf). House-elves can become free in OoP by picking up the clothes left in Gryffindor tower, but instead of getting their freedom in a realitivley easy way, they choose to avoid the tower. I'm not condoning slavery in any way, but I think that it will never happen as long as the house-elf themselves are not demanding their own freedom. Hermione would be better off helping goblins or werewolves gain more rights because at least they show some desire to gain more freedoms. Tigerqueen From nobradors at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 01:18:17 2004 From: nobradors at hotmail.com (nuriaobradors) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 01:18:17 -0000 Subject: Why SPEW will never work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90217 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tiger_queen429" wrote: > At first it really struck me that I would dislike an anti-slavery > movement. Now I realize what I disliked about SPEW: the house elfs > did not want to be free themselves. I think that for any movement > giving powers to the underpriviladged needs the cooperation of the > underprivilaged group. The history of slavery through out human > history contains many tales of run away slaves and slave revolts. In > Latin America, for example, African slaves formed independant > communiities in opposition to slavery. In the United States, many > slave revolts occured, Exactly. Posing another example, (inspired in another post) is like if non-jews would form a movement to save "innocent poor jewish babies from the foul mutilation of circumsition" - But I don't think observant jews, or the majority of them (and correct this clumsy catholic girl if I'm wrong), would want that, even if they were circumcised when they were merely 8 days old. (needless to say I'm neither condoning nor condemning circumsition). > I'm not condoning slavery in any way, but I think that it will never > happen as long as the house-elf themselves are not demanding their > own freedom. Hermione would be better off helping goblins or > werewolves gain more rights because at least they show some desire to > gain more freedoms. Personally, it annoys me a little this house-elf/slavery connection. I don't see them as slaves, but as domestic helpers. We don't need to go to the WW to see domestic service employees treated nearly as slaves, or cinderellas if you want. The house-elf allegory is conveniently exaggerated to fit the story, but I don't think people like the Malfoys would treat a human maid or butler any better than they treated Dobby - the differences between people and house-elves at choosing to stay with that people and their level of endurance to mistrteatment being obvious. I live in a middle-class neighbourhood and I've seen kids from not-so-wealthy families plainly insulting the household personnel or making derisive comments about them. Cheers, Nuri From nobradors at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 01:24:04 2004 From: nobradors at hotmail.com (nuriaobradors) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 01:24:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius-Weasley Cousin-ness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90218 "suehpfan" replied to my post: > This is a very interesting theory. I do not recall, and I do not > have the first book handy, if Molly Weasly's hair color is ever > mentioned. Perhaps she is blonde? She's redhead, but even when red head has to do with your family background, it may appear, and it does in RL, spontaneusly in redheadless parents' kids. I believe it's also more likely to appear where there are blond genes. Sue: > I do recall, however, that Bill told DD at the end of GOF that he > would "tell Dad" what had happened and he obviously meant Arthur > Weasley. Well, if Arthur raised them since their early chilhood, it's only logical they call him dad. I've a friend who was raised by her grandmother and my friend calls her -and refers to her as- her mother. > I really can't wait for all of this geneology to be explained, I > think we are in for some major surprises. Even those of us who > obsessively track these things. Cheers to that! ;) Nuri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 02:47:26 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 02:47:26 -0000 Subject: Point of View (Was: The Magical World) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90219 "Chris" wrote: one point I think most people are over > looking is how the books are written. The books are always written > from Harry's POV. So we, the readers, only know what Harry knows, > what Harry is told, what Harry sees etc. Perhaps JKR is doing an > Asimov and keeping large areas of her world uncovered, for herself or > other writers to touch upon at a later date, perhaps? Carol responds: I just did a huge thread on point of view in HP for an audience of one. (Thank you, Andrew!) If you care to read it, here's a link to my second post (the first post is quoted in full): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/89786 It's all about the limited omniscient point of view, its variations and its limitations. At least you'll know that one person has paid attention to how the books are written! Carol From erikal at magma.ca Wed Feb 4 04:06:09 2004 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:06:09 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why SPEW will never work Message-ID: <01a501c3ead4$39174ae0$bea31a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 90220 Tigerqueen wrote: >With Dobby's example this becomes a bit >more clear in my mind. Dobby >wanted freedom from the Malfoys which >he could only get by getting >his freedom. >I'm not condoning slavery in any way, >but I think that it will never >happen as long as the house-elf >themselves are not demanding their >own freedom. Hermione would be better off helping goblins or >werewolves gain more rights because at least they show some desire to >gain more freedoms. Now me (Erika Wolfraven): First of all, I agree that Hermione is going about things the wrong way; you can't force freedom on people. What Hermione ought to be doing really is trying to campaign for elf rights rather than freedom. She should focus on improving their working conditions, making sure that the kind of abuse Dobby suffered is made illegal, that house-elves have the right to personal safety and the right to find another master if they so choose. Choice after all is supposed to be one of the central themes of the books, right? Nuri added: >Personally, it annoys me a little this house-elf/slavery >connection. >I don't see them as slaves, but as domestic helpers. >I don't think people like the Malfoys would treat a they treated Dobby - the differences between people >and house-elves >at choosing to stay with that people and their level of >endurance to >mistrteatment being obvious. me again (Erika Wolfraven): But you see, that's the difference between a house-elf and a servant: a servant can leave; a house-elf cannot. I think that's the crucial distinction. It's fine for the house-elves to serve as long as it's something they've chosen. But what choice are they given? They work from generation to generation for the same family. They never choose whether to do so or not. Loyalty to the family becomes ingrained in them. If we go with what Dumbledore says in CoS that it is our choices that make us who we are, well then where does that leave the house-elves? When I read about house-elves I often think of a quote from John Stuart Mill's _The Subjugation of Women_. I apologise in advance if anyone is offended by the quote. To put it in context it's from 1869 (according to my Norton Anthology of Eng Lit 6th ed) at the height of Victorian England, and is not meant as a criticism of more enlightened modern day men. "All men, except the most brutish, desire to have, in the woman most nearly connected with them, not a forced slave but a willing one, not a slave merely, but a favourite. They have therefore put everything in practice to enslave their minds." A willing slave. Isn't that what wizards want in a house-elf? A servant who asks for nothing and is owed nothing, who desires to serve, who feels that his very purpose in life is to serve and that his loyalty to the master comes above all else? And don't wizards expect this mentality in a house-elf? Couldn't we say then that it's their minds that are enslaved, and that they become _willing_ slaves? I realize of course that the Rowling's house-elves are likely derived from "brownies", benevolent elves who do housework, and that one can argue that it's in the house-elves' very nature to be servile. However, as I understand brownies, the difference once again is that they can leave a household if they choose to. So once again it comes down to the simple matter of choices. Do the house-elves have any? No. Therefore they are slaves not servants. Again, I agree that Hermione is proceeding the wrong way. In forcibly trying to free them, she, too, is depriving them of choice. What she does not seem to recognise is that it's the ingrained mind set of the house-elves that is the problem and that she is doing them a disservice by trying to force freedom upon them. The problem is the societal system which creates and perpetuates their servility. Best Erika (Wolfraven) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 03:25:44 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 03:25:44 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and Blood Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90221 "drjuliehoward" wrote: > I was wondering about that horrible punishment Umbridge had for > Harry, the quill that wrote lines in blood on the back of his hand. > Does anyone else think this is symbolic (yes, quite elementary) of > Umbridge's preference for purebloods and willingness to punish half- > bloods and mudbloods. If so, how far would she take this? Carol responds: The only student besides Harry that we know was made to write lines on his own hand with that poison pen is Lee Jordan, and we have no indication that he's a half blood or Muggle-born. (The Gryffindors I can think of who fit those categories are Seamus, who's "half and half," Dean Thomas, and, of course, Hermione.) So whatever Umbridge's motive in choosing her victims, I don't think it's the purity of their blood. She may have it in for Gryffindors in particular, but I don't think it's that, either. We certainly don't see her forming any alliances with Snape, who openly favors Slytherin over Gryffindor, and as for his forming an alliance with her, I think his animosity toward her is obvious. I personally think she's motivated simply by innate cruelty and lust for power, and any student who thwarts her, or any teacher who appears vulnerable (Hagrid and Trelawney) is a potential victim. It's the Ring for poor little Smeagol, I mean, power for poor little Delores--and for the MoM as long as it supports and promotes her. Her title, the Hogwarts High Inquisitor, obviously suggests the Spanish Inquisition. Does anyone know if those educational decrees are analogous to, say, papal bulls during the Inquisition (which I realize extended beyond Spain)? Or is JKR caricaturing modern British educational reform? (In the U.S. we have self-esteem training and No Child Left Behind, but I won't get into that because it can't be relevant.) Carol, who would love to see the Toad Lady toadlady disgraced. (Don't ask me to decipher the pun. ;-p ) From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 03:35:57 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 03:35:57 -0000 Subject: Trevor the Toad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90222 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > Just as an errant thought - does anybody know > the average life span of a toad? Bookworm: Just for the fun of it, I made a quick search and found this: The life span of Common Toads in captivity may be as high as 20-40 years, but in the wild, it is more likely to be 10 - 12 years. http://www.offwell.free-online.co.uk/toads2.htm#Lifespan Kind of surprising. Now, what kind of toad *is* Trevor? Ravenclaw Bookworm From Batchevra at aol.com Wed Feb 4 03:50:15 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:50:15 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pettigrew Power (Was: James Potter Bio Facts) Message-ID: <1dd.19c2d54f.2d51c5f7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90223 In a message dated 2/3/04 6:23:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk writes: Simariel wrote: << I just had to defend Peter, I think he's quite impressive a wizard.>> Sigune says: Yes he is! It rather confuses me to read references to Pettigrew's lack of magical ability all the time, when he does some impressive magic in our faces. Poor silly powerless Peter Pettigrew kills a whole street full of Muggles, defeats Sirius and gets away transformed as a rat; Poor silly powerless Peter Pettigrew brews a potion that restores old Voldy to his body. It seems to me Mssrs Moony, Padfoot and Prongs have a serious lack of judgment when it comes to both friends (Pettigrew) and enemies (Snape). Yours severely, Sigune Isn't that what Rowling has done this whole series, I mean that she has shown Neville as a timid character, nearly a squib and lets everyone think that he doesn't belong in Gryffindor while also giving us little bits of his bravery that is sometimes completely overlooked. How about Lupin, easygoing, wearing shabby clothes but is very competent in DADA. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 03:59:10 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 03:59:10 -0000 Subject: Houses Unite! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90224 lizvega2 worte: > At the beginning of book 5 the sorting hat talks about how when the > founders first created the school they were the best of friends. The > hat states specifically that gryffindor and slytherin were BEST > friends while ravenclaw and hufflepuff were best friends. And, how > the houses were torn apart by bickering. Can anyone imagine > slytherin and gryffindor being best friends now? > > It's been pounded into our heads just how much slytherin and > gryffindor hate each other. Throughout all five books, the anamosity > is present and reinforced by jo. Doesn't Ron joke after the sorting > in book 5, after Hermione makes the comment about unity, that he > wouldn't ever become friends with slytherin's? > So, even if all of the houses have to unite there will still be > stragglers- some, like malfoy and the thugs and that cow parkinson- > probably won't join our side- but what about the rest of the > slytherin house mates? Are they all like Malfoy? I can't recall one > episode that Harry has had with a slytherin that has been positive, > so, what will finally convince Harry and Ron to forget about how > much they hate Slytherin? > > Perhaps they need to find out about some decent > slytherin's......????? Carol responds: I can't find much good to say about Draco and his cronies (though we may see some friction among them if Crabbe, Sr. is in Azkaban with Lucius and Goyle, Sr. isn't), but even they stood up to toast Cedric Diggory at the end of GoF (though they and some of their housemates refused to do the same for Harry). And Pansy's pro-Slytherin fanaticism may be mostly show. Did anyone notice that she was trying hard not to show how much she liked the baby unicorns in GoF? And there's also our mystery Slytherin, the "weedy" (or is it "stringy"?) boy who saw the Thestrals, who is probably the "stringy" (or is it "weedy"?) Theodore Nott--whose father is also, presumably, in Azkaban but was openly neglected by Lucius Malfoy in the raid on the DoM ("Leave Nott! Leave him, I say!") If word gets around to Theo of how his father was treated by Draco's, what little friendship they have for one another may fall completely apart. And there's another Slytherin boy in Harry's year who doesn't hang around with Draco, the completely unknown quantity named Blaise Zabini. For all we know, those two could be friends. Maybe they'll join the D.A. I know this has been said repeatedly by other people, but Slytherins can't all be bad. It would be inexcusable to sort any eleven-year-old child into a house that would doom him or her to become a Dark Witch or Wizard. Even Durmstrang, which teaches the Dark Arts rather than just DADA, managed to produce Viktor Krum. Yes, I know he Crucio'd Cedric, but he was under an Imperius curse himself. Aside from that, he seems to be gruff and shy but basically decent. (He likes Hermione. How bad can he be?) I also see the theme of unity developing but thinks that a unified Hogwarts, if it happens, will be a marriage of convenience, a temporary alliance to defeat a common enemy. As for a unified WW, in which Wizards and Centaurs and Goblins and House Elves march together to Mordor--er, to the Riddle House or wherever Voldemort is staying--I think there's a much chance of that as of Wizards openly apparating and transfiguring on the streets of London. Carol From inky_quill at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 00:21:58 2004 From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 00:21:58 -0000 Subject: ... Lackey or Equal?: Snape's favorism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90225 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Steve said > I think Snape favors Draco for a variety of reason Draco is not Harry, Draco doesn't like Harry, etc.... I think you have a very important point here. Regardless of whether Snape genuinely likes Draco or not (or Lucius), this ongoing feud between Draco and Harry would catch Snape's attention. Snape hated James Potter (it seems with good reason), and said somewhere that Harry was becoming very arrogant like his father, breaking rules as if he had a special dispensation, or something to that effect. Not to say I think Harry's perfect or his life & choices aren't hard, but I can totally see Severus Snape saying to himself "finally, someone who doesn't shamelessly fawn over the Potter brat," and doing everything he can to promote Draco, one of his Slytherins, over Harry Potter. Heck, he might have favored a Ravenclaw or a Hufflepuff over Harry if there was one handy. What's going to be interesting in the next couple of books is whether Snape or anyone else finally has the sense to step in and try to lower the anomosity level. The two boys have become so locked into their roles as enemies that they don't think about it any more. If nothing else, if Snape gets a chance to step back and think, he might recognize in Draco's and Harry's little war, some of the same elements, it has been proposed, that made up at least part of his own decision to join the Death Eaters as a way back at (or to be safe from) a certain gang of Gryffindors. If nothing else I assume Snape would want to prevent the young Slytherins, including Draco, from becoming casualties when Voldemort falls. Someone use wisdom, please! Julie From inky_quill at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 23:54:49 2004 From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:54:49 -0000 Subject: Despised Lackey or Social Equal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol wrote: > I'm not sure how you're defining "elite" and "non-elite" here, but my sense of WW aristocracy is that it's based primarily on blood, though > money matters, especially if it's unearned income based on inheritance and investments.>> For myself I meant non-elite meaning not of the highest social position or the aristocracy. I see more of a white collar or small businessman/craftsman background, or small independent landowner. Respectable but not super wealthy or titled. (For some unexplainable reason, I see Snape as having more of an urban upbringing. Go figure, I don't know why. Perhaps its my secret impression that he'd make a nasty street fighter). Lucius Malfoy I see as representative of an elite/aristocratic background of wealth and privilege. I agree pedigree would be the ultimate definition. Not all the money in Gringotts would buy acceptance without the proper breeding. But having both would be lovely. Carol, excellent point about Draco's knowlege of who is and who isn't muggle-born. When parentage and bloodlines define who one is, I would image that those to whom it's important make an early point of familiarizing themselves with who's acceptable and who isn't. Another point why Snape is probably more, rather than less, pureblooded. Draco, hasn't always known his wizardly Debrett's. He made that faux pas at the robe shop when he first met Harry, and before he had command of the nuances, assuming that since the boy's parents were "our kind" ie a witch and wizard, that the boy was someone he could be friends with (sorry books not handy to check exact wording). Poor Draco, left himself wide open there and ended up rejected. I've always wondered if that could have ended differently. Draco's spoiled, brattiness aside, the slytherin children definately have a strick against them from the other houses before they can do anything to earn it. Tar is so sticky. Perhaps this is another point to add under Snape's reinvention of himself, a reinvention of Slytherin House. Even if there were, as you suggest, no other Slytherins teaching at the time, it might explain why Snape was appointed House master at such a young age. > Eloise wrote:> So if Snape is from a respectable, purebloodline and he's apparently not betraying that inheritance, then I think that Lucius would treat him pretty much as an equal on that level. However even within that parity of social standing, money or the lack of it> would play a part. I couldn't see Severus being Lucius' first> choice to marry his (notional) sister, for instance, if a wealthier> wizard with similar credentials came along.>>>> Julie: No, probably not. I was pondering whether Snape had enough "credentials" to rate an invitation to tea, much less an invitation to both ceremony and reception. Being acceptable to invite to dinner or stand up with the sister at a dance is one thing, being acceptable as suitor is a whole next level with additional criteria for acceptance. I grew up in a small western town in the US. We didn't have a rigid 'class' distinction of wealth or pedigree--too small for that. Looking back of course, I see from an adult perspective that while "all are equal, some are more equal than others" to loosely paraphrase George Orwell. Along your wedding example, in my small town (so small most everyone's related to some degree---made me think of the tapestry at the Black house) it was taken for granted that the whole town was invited to the wedding. But there were some that you definately gave a personalized invitation, and who sat where and how long they stayed at the reception (or if they went to the reception) said something about where they stood in the town hierarchy. The nuances were there, but I didn't see them til I was older. Even though I moved there when I was 3 and I took my step=dad's name, its my 1/2 siblings who "belong" while I'm still the "step-daughter" when long time residents explain who I am to others. I wonder how many generations it will take for Hermione and/or her children to "belong" in the eyes of the more traditional social matrons of the WW? > Carol: I think there's> a touch of patronization (is that a word?) in Malfoy's attitude toward> Snape, though the only evidence I have for that is Sirius's catty> reference to Snape as Malfoy's lap dog. Oh gosh! You have an excellent point here (and I agree, Sirius was catty for a dog person). If Sirius was refering to the youthful Snape's 'adoption' by the older Malfoy & Gang while at school, that would explain that more satisfactorily. Carol, your thought that Snape is spying via his friendship(?) with Lucius makes the most sense to me of the various theories I've run across. And explains why Snape is so put out at Sirius's doggy-persona appearance. Who was it said that Wormtail, as LV's right hand, probably spilled the Mauraders' secret animal identities? If Snape was surprised enough he might have a hard time explaining why he knows the black lab is Black, especially if he's not in contact with the Death Eaters in general, but gets his info at one remove through Lucius. I do hope that Snape has other friends than Lucius, regardless of the quality or reason behind the 'friendship'. Too much of 'my friend, my enemy.' > Julie:> Snape is almost meek, in his dealings with > Doris Umbridge). > > Carol: > Meek? That's not how I read the scene. He clearly has as much contempt> for Delores Umbridge as McGonagall does and is not about to let her> control his class or to give her information that he regards as onone> of her business.("I suggest you ask Professor Dumbledore.") Umbridge intimidates Trelawney and confuses Hagrid, giving her grounds to> report them as incompetent and suggest their removal. Snape gives her> no such ammunition.> Julie: Perhaps meek was a poor choice of words. I agree totally, he despises Umbridge just as much as McGonnagal does, if not more, and is not about to let her use him to achieve her own agenda. But comparing Snape and McGonnagal's responses to Umbridge, I thought that Snape was being quite toned down from his usual nasty, dominating manner and was deliberately careful in making his answers. In fact he seems a bit careful during the entire class session. He employs his usual sneering tone on the students, but doesn't employ any of his usual insulting personal comments. When Harry botches his potion, he merely comments that it's "no points again, then,Potter" and has Harry write an essay on why his potion failed. Nor does Snape go for his usual belittlement of Neville Longbottom, and he had a perfect opportunity. Neville clearly being physically restrained from attacking Draco when Snape came to the door. I imagine he must have had to work fast to avoid Umbridge following him to the door to see what all the ruckus was about. Of all days to have part of his class physically fighting each other, it had to be the day Umbridge was monitoring! And it had to be Lucius' son who was being attacked. McGonnagal at one point admonishs Harry to guard his mouth and remember who Umbridge works for. Clearly this is a lesson Snape has already learned, without Deloris' constant reminders that she represents the MofM. I think Snape is well aware of how much Deloris idolizes Lucius Malfoy as the Minister's dear friend and supporter (and hopes for his patronage for her own career), and how much damage she can do to his Hogwarts existance (for example she's already meddling in his curriculum), not even considering how she can hurt the war against LV. I imagine that dealing with Umbridge?aside from the danger she represents?must really gall Snape. As a Slytherin, Snape must pride himself on being subtle and discreet in his manipulation, and it must be frustrating to watch as Deloris just lays it on with a trowel, using the sensitivity of a bludger. Thank you so much for your insights, Eloise and Carol! Julie From Tigerstormxx at aol.com Wed Feb 4 02:04:28 2004 From: Tigerstormxx at aol.com (james320152002) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 02:04:28 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus In-Reply-To: <8.44d89e81.2d516dd1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, pscospoagofootp at a... wrote: > I have been a lurker for a while and I enjoy all the different theories that > are put forth in this forum. And I have a few of my own and I am going to > share one that I have had since reading gof that was reinforced in ootp. > Dumbledore is an animagus. Most likely a bee or wasp. My proof - At the beginning of > Harry Potter's History of Magic O.W.L. there was a wasp in the upper windows. > American Version of OOTP pg725 line 5 and also I think that is how he can become > invisible without an invisibility cloak. (pardon for not having the > reference) And also his last name is old English for bumblebee. Sorry if this was > scatter brained. > As for becoming invisible without an invisibility cloak, we must remember this is Albus Dumbledore the most powerfull wizard in the world. The same rules that apply to most wizards don't apply to him. If the Fred and George can make hats that make your head vanish then wouldn't it be plausable for Dumbledore to be able to use a spell to make himself invisible? But I do agree being the most powerfull wizard in the world i think that he probally would be an Animagus considering that three students and hogwarts were able to manage it in only 5 years, and they were only 15 at the time. From kking0731 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 02:35:33 2004 From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 21:35:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew Power (Was: James Potter Bio Facts) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90228 >snip: Hitomi: Harry didn't underestimate Peter. He just would not see him murdered, especially at the hands of Sirius. He would not let himself nor Sirius become what they depise. A murderer. Which is why Harry doesn't really want to kill LV, he just wants him stopped. Harry doesn't want to murder anyone. And he doesn't want to be responsible for killing someone. Why do you think Sirius' death tears him up so much? He blames himself. He believes Sirius would still be alive if not for him. And I don't think people underestimate Peter anymore. They know what he's capable of now. But Peter is predictable. Just look for the most powerful person, and there you will find Peter Pettigrew. The name Wormtail really does fit him. I don't expect anyone to share my strong feelings of dislike for this character. I just can't understand how you could possibly like him. ~ Hitomi, who sticks Peter in the same category as Bellatrix, Lucius, and Umbridge Q: "Some people say good characters are boring and evil characters are always the more interesting. There's the famous line about Milton and Paradise Lost: God is a bore and the devil is interesting." JKR: "Well, Harry is good. I personally do not find Harry boring at all. He has his faults. Ron and Hermione are very good characters... but no, I'm not bored by goodness." Kathy here: I loved what you had to say about Peter and the way that you stated it all....It was Harry's compassion along with his mother's that set them apart. It really brought up two questions when reading all you had to say about Peter: 1st: Why did V ask Lily to step aside? Maybe Lily (like Harry to Pettigrew) was compassionate to V and saved his life once. Then V owed Lily. 2nd: If Harry is soooo compassionate that he can't stand a side and let a muggle (like Dudley) or a wizard (like Pettigrew) be killed, then how can he kill V? Maybe thats when Pettigrew steps in. He still owes Harry his life. ...Pettigrew still has time to change his spots. Thanks for the thoughts Hitomi! From teshara at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 02:43:48 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 02:43:48 -0000 Subject: Sirius-Weasley Cousin-ness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90229 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nuriaobradors" > > 1. Molly's cousin to Sirius by Marriage with *another* of Sirius's > > cousins (very Star Wars, as JKR would say? Yet it throws a new > range > > of possibilities... married to Arthur's brother first, had Bill and > > Charlie... First husband dies, finds console in his muggle loving > > brother, end up in love, married and having 5 more children... > shame > > and scandal in the family that wipes the weasleys out of the > tapestry) Well, there's nothing more traditional than that. Don't see why it would possibly be a scandal unless they killed her first husband... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > This is a very interesting theory. I do not recall, and I do not > have the first book handy, if Molly Weasly's hair color is ever > mentioned. Perhaps she is blonde? Nope, when they're getting on the train they say she has red hair. >I like the Malfoy connection and > the idea that the first two children are from a previous marriage. > In GOF she refers to getting a "telling off" by the Fat Lady for > coming in at 4:00 in the morning but I do not remember if she was > with Arthur or if we just assumed she was. It could explain the age > difference between Charlie and Percy. They say she'd been for a walk with their father. He was caught and beaten by the groundskeeper atthe time. ~ Chelle From teshara at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 02:48:56 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 02:48:56 -0000 Subject: Weasleys on the Tapestry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90230 Since everyone has a theory here's mine: There were burns on the tapestry to signify the disowning of recent family members, but there wasn't even a MENTION of the Weasleys. At all. Even though Sirius says Arthur and Molly are both related to him although distantly, NONE of their line is on the tapestry. Whatever happened with the Weasleys must have happened WAY before Arthur and Molly. I want to know what happened, darn it! ~ Chelle From armadillof at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 03:06:21 2004 From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 03:06:21 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow Playback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90231 Phil: > We know Harry witnessed his own AK because he can recall the green > flash, (I mean he wasn't asleep). > Maybe DD extracting Harry's memories caused the famous scar, although > I am favouring the Rune theory that is now gathering pace. > > Does this theory explain DD's knowledge ? No. JK states through her characters many times through the books that Voldemort was responsible for the scar.....especially through Dumbledore, and JK has stated that anything Dumbledore says is to be taken as an absolute truth....with perhaps the exception of woolly socks.... ;) Voldemort gave Harry the scar. There is no doubt in my mind. A.F. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 04:15:26 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 04:15:26 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elfundeb2" wrote: > Debbie Roberson wrote: I think only the Potters were in hiding, and it wasn't because of the prophecy. I don't believe Dumbledore learned that Voldemort knew about the prophecy until much later. Of course, I don't know how reliable Fudge is on such matters, but my primary canon is the following, from PoA, ch. 10: "Fudge dropped his voice and proceeded in a sort of low rumble. 'Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know- Who was after them. Dumbledore . . . had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped them off, and he alerted James and Lily at once. He advices them to go into hiding. . . . Dumbledore told them that their best chance was the Fidelius Charm." Since the Potters were attacked only a week after the Fidelius Charm was performed, it appears that Dumbledore didn't realize how much Voldemort knew about the prophecy until the spy (Snape! Snape!) informed him. I doubt the Longbottoms were ever under similar protection if Dumbledore relied on his covert information. And since the attack on Godric's Hollow, Dumbledore has clearly believed -- as he tells Harry at the end of GoF -- that Harry is the one and Neville accordingly wouldn't need protection. Bookworm: That's assuming Fudge knows the true story, not just the official one. Going back to the original post (#90008), the theory suggested that Voldemort *didn't* know about the prophecy until just before the attack on the Potters. If the whole thing was a scheme to test Snape's reliability, then very few people would have known the details. I'm sure, though, that Dumbledore told the Potters and Longbottoms early on so that they could take precautions. Which leads to the next question - what kind of protective charm was placed on Neville?? Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 05:04:39 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 05:04:39 -0000 Subject: Question: Baruffio and the buffalo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90233 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Since English is not my mother tongue, I always suspect I'm missing > puns and clues in HP. It took me two years to realize there is a pun > in "Diagon Alley" . Now, could someone please > explain to me (slowly, with diagrams) if there is a pun in: > > SS/PS, Ch. 10: > "Now, don't forget that nice wrist movement we've been practicing!" > squeaked Professor Flitwick, perched on top of his pile of books as > usual. "Swish and flick, remember, swish and flick. And saying the > magic words properly is very important, too ? never forget Wizard > Baruffio, who said `s' instead of `f' and found himself on the floor > with a buffalo on his chest." > > I would have thought that the editors got it mixed up as usual and it > actually should have written "said `f' instead of `s' ", but what the > @$#& is a "bussalo"??? Do we need a Latin expert here? > > Thanks, > Neri According to the dictionary.com/translate page, 'bussalo' is Italian for 'it knocks'. I wonder what Wizard Baruffio was really trying to do...? Ravenclaw Bookworm From smaragdina5 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 05:05:30 2004 From: smaragdina5 at yahoo.com (smaragdina5) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 05:05:30 -0000 Subject: Why SPEW will never work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90234 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tiger_queen429" wrote: > When I first started reading GoF, I really liked the idea of Hermione > in SPEW, but as the book went on, I started to not like the idea as > much anymore. Then, when I read OoP, I really started to dislike > Hermione and where she was taking SPEW. This is when I began to > realize that SPEW would never work out, at least not in the time > frame of these books. I've been reading _A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court_, and keep being struck by reminders and pointers about SPEW. In the Twain story, the narrator of the Arthur-era story (not the first narrator in the story) keeps remarking on how set in their ways the people are, how they have grown up raised on only certain ideas, that it would never occur to them to think another way, and how it doesn't work to try to shock them into behaving the right way and treating everyone properly as equals and feeling that they have inherent worth themselves. The narrator tries to move slowly with the right people and not go about strongwilling and bulldozing the entire system. I haven't gotten to the end of the story yet. I wonder what will happen in our septology parallel. Betta smaragdina From smaragdina5 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 05:09:27 2004 From: smaragdina5 at yahoo.com (smaragdina5) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 05:09:27 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and Blood Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Her title, the Hogwarts High Inquisitor, obviously suggests the > Spanish Inquisition. It reminds me of the Lord High Executioner, who had a little list, on which he could place the names (when a victim must be found) of various people he didn't like who wouldn't be missed, he said, i.e. his getting rid of them wouldn't be questioned, so he could easily put them down on the offing list by his power. Betta smaragdina From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 05:09:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 05:09:27 -0000 Subject: The prophesy...sorry for being boring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90236 > Carol: > You're still taking your "born with the power" interpretation for > granted. Nowhere does the prophecy say that "the one" is born with > the power. (In fact, he hasn't even been born when the prophecy is > spoken.) > Whizbang: > > The one had the power when the prophesy was delivered. "The one > with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches." At that > moment, as Trelawney spoke and Dumbledore listened, the one was > approaching with the power. Carol: The prophecy was delivered before Harry was born. He could not possibly have had the power to defeat the Dark Lord as a fetus--or even as a fifteen-month-old baby. And we don't know that the voice speaking the prophecy, which we agree isn't Trelawney's, is speaking *in* the present *about* the present. It's using the present tense, but it's presenting a prophecy and prophecies deal with the future. (For all we know, the all-knowing voice may be speaking from a different perspective, in a different time.) I think you may be taking the words too literally. The chief characteristic of that prophecy is ambiguity, and if we try to pin a literal meaning on it, we are bound to be wrong.) I've made all my arguments and hope you'll forgive me for dropping the argument now. My interpretation still seems valid to me as a *possible* explanation for the events at Godric's Hollow, which are not the fulfillment of the prophecy, only its initiation. We don't know how the prophecy will be fulfilled; it hasn't happened yet. As long as you believe that Harry was born with the power to defeat Voldemort, nothing I can say will convince you to look at the rest of my argument and consider the *possibility* that his life was saved, and the curse deflected onto Voldemort, by a charm his mother placed on him. I think the clues point in that direction, but I suppose for you they'll remain red herrings. Let me ask you one last question, though. Do you also think that Harry was born with the ability to speak Parseltongue and that none of LV's powers were transferred to Harry at Godric's Hollow? Is The Boy Who Lived, in your view, no different than he was before the encounter with Voldemort except for being an orphan and having a scar? What about the scar itself linking him to Voldemort? I think that the Harry who lived with his mother and father and the Harry who survived the AK are very different people--or rather, Harry is someone special, someone "marked" for a special fate, *after* the attempted AK but not before. And even now, at sixteen as of Book 5, he still does not have the power to destroy Voldemort except as partially developed potential. All he has now is the ability to survive whatever Voldemort does to him until the time foretold in the prophecy arrives. Carol From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 05:19:04 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 05:19:04 -0000 Subject: Holly and Yew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > The Eihwaz rune is very interesting to read about while reading about > Harry. It is lightening bolt shaped, it represents "strength, > reliability, dependability, trustworthiness. Enlightenment, endurance. > Defense, protection. The driving force to acquire, providing > motivation and a sense of purpose. Indicates that you have set your > sights on a reasonable target and can achieve your goals. An honest > man who can be relied upon." > i don't see any runes that symbolize the > holly, so i think i am missing something. Bookworm: I looked at the two runes Hermione mentioned after her exam rather than a matter of holly versus yew. Instead of repeating it all here, I'll refer you to my earlier post (#90187). I think you found the same site I did - did you see the page on ehwaz, too? The information fits Harry nicely, but the information on ehwaz makes a provocative counterpoint. I'd be interested in your thoughts. Ravenclaw Bookworm From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 05:23:45 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 05:23:45 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90238 > LizVega here: > > With any other author I would've > overlooked the mumbling as just that, mumbling from a man who's > frightened of an even bigger man-Hagrid, but have we ever seen > Vernon mumble in frustration? Ever? Even when Moody's bowler hat > exposed the crazy eye in the last chapter of OOP? No! Vernon never > mumbles! And, let's not forget that a variation of Mimbulus > Mimbletonia as stated on the HP TCG- can we consider those to be > canon?- is MIMBLE WIMBLE! The trading cards say that Mimble wimble > is used to deter or interrupt a spell- or something like that- and > then Hagrid tries to turn Dudley into a pig but only manges to give > him a tail! Carol: Two things here that I mentioned before but they seem to have been overlooked. First, "mimble wimble" is what Harry hears, not necessarily what Uncle Vernon says. We all know that Harry's perception of what is happening around him is not infallible. Second, the "mimble wimble" scene occurs nine pages before the attempt to turn Dudley into a pig. I provided the page numbers with the appropriate quotes in a previous post. (IIRC, Uncle Vernon's words and actions have no effect on the pig spell; presumably it's Hagrid's lack of training and his broken wand concealed within an umbrella handle that prevent the spell from having its full effect, just as the tortoises in the Transfiguration breathe steam or have willow-patterned shells.) Uncle Vernon, as Hagrid makes clear in that same scene and JKR states emphatically in every book, is the ultimate Muggle. Whatever the significance of "mimble wimble," and I'm not questioning a possible connection with Mimbulus Mimbletonia, it's highly likely that it relates to Uncle Vernon having magical powers or an intuitve knowledge of countercurses. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 05:42:33 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 05:42:33 -0000 Subject: The Animagi was Re: Giving the map to Lupin (Was: Lupin's vampire essay) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90239 > > LizVega here: > > Where is it stated in any book that the 'prank' Sirius played on > Snape happened in the sixth year? Do we know for sure that it > happened after the rest of the marauder's became animagi? Carol: Snape says in PoA that Sirius tried to murder him when he was sixteen. The reference is clearly to the Prank. Sorry I don't have the page reference or the exact quote at hand. Carol From RACH911 at aol.com Tue Feb 3 13:24:20 2004 From: RACH911 at aol.com (rach9112000) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:24:20 -0000 Subject: Snape and Draco (Was: Despised Lackey or Social Equal?) In-Reply-To: <15c.2c3c86fc.2d50ed7f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90240 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Sigune muses: > > >Malfoy Jr may > > have a certain talent for potion-making, but apart from that... Draco > > strikes me as much too stupid (sorry Draco fans) for Snape to be able > > to really respect him or care for him. > Eloise writes: > I agree with all of that, actually. > > But I don't think that Draco has a happy home life and I think Snape may well > identify with that. There are hints (I'm not going down the abused child > road) that Draco doesn't really get on with his father all that well. It's a cold > relationship. I always envisaged Snape having a cold, distant (or absent) > father, things that are strongly implied in OoP. I suspect that Snape knew Draco > or at least his situation to some extent before his arrival at Hogwarts. > (snipped) > I just have a feeling that if Severus had fallen off his broom, probably > no-one would have worried about him or asked anyone to cut up *his* potions > ingredients for him (hence perhaps part of his willingness to molly coddle Draco). > Ability or not, Draco is the most prominent Slytherin in his year. Snape > probably was too (all those curses, ability at potions, possible implications of > flying ability). And given his character, he probably didn't feel he got the > recognition he deserved. So it was part of my mental picture of Snape (who I think > tends to project rather) that in his relationship with Draco he rather trieds > to treat him as he wishes he had been treated. Rachel replies: On reading the books, I have never got the impression that Snape is trying to "molly coddle" Draco and I can't think of any canon to support his feeling of sympathy towards Draco(but if you can find any please do tell me because it could be an angle that I have just never seen before). I took the scene where Snape orders Dracos ingredients to be cut up for him, more as Snapes way at getting at Harry by forcing his best friend to do work for Draco. I agree with Sigune in respect that Draco is too stupid (not academically but with regards to common sense and awareness), for Snape to respect him all that much. I get the feeling more that Snape likes to portray overt favouritism towards Draco, in order to annoy Harry and highlight his dislike for Harry and show that just because other people think he's so great, Snape definately does not agree. In Snapes eyes, the more he supports and favouritises Draco, the more it puts Harry in his place. Rachel From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Tue Feb 3 13:52:21 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:52:21 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90241 Is it coincidence that Snape is especially horrible to Harry and Neville, considering they are both eligible to be "the one" of the prophesy? I know that he is horrible to the Gryffindors anyway, but I noticed he seems even more so to Harry and Neville. Neville is terrified of Snape, and I know that Snape finds Neville to be a complete idiot in his eyes, but I don't think that's the only reason. I also know of Snape's hatred of James and the Marauders. But I think there has to be more to it. Anythoughts? Sawsan From ktd7 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 06:22:21 2004 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 06:22:21 -0000 Subject: Why SPEW will never work In-Reply-To: <01a501c3ead4$39174ae0$bea31a40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90242 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erika L." wrote: > Tigerqueen wrote: > > >With Dobby's example this becomes a bit >more clear in my mind. Dobby > >wanted freedom from the Malfoys which >he could only get by getting > >his freedom. > > > > >I'm not condoning slavery in any way, >but I think that it will never > >happen as long as the house-elf >themselves are not demanding their > >own freedom. Hermione would be better off helping goblins or > >werewolves gain more rights because at least they show some desire to > >gain more freedoms. > > Now me (Erika Wolfraven): > > I realize of course that the Rowling's house-elves are likely derived from "brownies", benevolent elves who do housework, and that one can argue that it's in the house-elves' very nature to be servile. However, as I understand brownies, the difference once again is that they can leave a household if they choose to. So once again it comes down to the simple matter of choices. Do the house- elves have any? No. Therefore they are slaves not servants. Again, I agree that Hermione is proceeding the wrong way. In forcibly trying to free them, she, too, is depriving them of choice. What she does not seem to recognise is that it's the ingrained mind set of the house-elves that is the problem and that she is doing them a disservice by trying to force freedom upon them. The problem is the societal system which creates and perpetuates their servility. Now me, Karen: I agree with you, Wolfraven! Hermione's got the right idea... the name of her organization is Society for the Promotion of Elvish Welfare. This is a cause many wizards and house elves could probably identify with. This simply states that the organization wants to help them have better lives. Who could argue? However, they are not yet ready for "accidental freedom", which could leave them in much worse shape in their minds. However, it is totally erroneous to assume that they are better off in virtual slavery, however well they are being treated. We often say, "better the devil you know than the one you don't know". That is not necessarily true, it just means that we fear the unknown. House elves are a prime example of the over-arching theme running through the entire series; that of inequality and prejudice. Muggles vs. Wizards, Non-human magical beings vs. Wizards, Muggle-born vs. "Pure blood wizards", Centaurs vs. Wizards... the list keeps growing. If you read "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them" carefully you'll get a real clue about the attitudes of the wizards to anyone who they consider inferior, which, of course, is everyone but themselves. They have the same attitude toward other magical beings that the Centaurs have toward wizards. House elves are simply the lowest intelligent beings on the totem pole. As with almost any enslaved population, after a while, it seems to be the normal way of things, even to the slaves. Hermione is smart enough that she may figure out that she needs to change her tactics. If she works to better the lives of house elves, whether they stay attached to their houses or not, she can eventually make a difference, but she has to educate both house elves and wizards to be able to "set them free". I think that this seemingly less significant part of the story is going to become the basis for a lot of important stuff that happens later. Karen From kking0731 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 00:41:39 2004 From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:41:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: worse than a vampire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90243 >K wrote: >So what is Lupin's fear? Is it his true identity or is it the >future? I'm not really sure. Could it not be both? If you are a >believer in the James/Lupin switch, would not James be afraid of the >prophecy orb (Harry's ?) and of revealing his true indentity? > >Berit replies: > >Sometimes I think the simplest, most straightforward explanation is >the better one :-) In this case, I don't think Lupin's boggart was a >crystal ball. I think it was the moon just as he says himself and >just as Hermione correctly deduced. Why did Lupin flee when Trelawney >offered to crystal-gaze him? Well, what is the simple and most >obvious explanation to that, based on canon? Anyone in their right >mind would flee if Sybil offered to foresee their future :-)) I >would. And so would Harry, if he could... > >Berit Kathy replies: Or it could have been a full moon and he had to go. _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 04:48:46 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 04:48:46 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew Power (Was: James Potter Bio Facts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90244 > Kathy here: > I loved what you had to say about Peter and the way that you stated it > all....It was Harry's compassion along with his mother's that set them > apart. It really brought up two questions when reading all you had to say > about Peter: > 1st: Why did V ask Lily to step aside? Maybe Lily (like Harry to Pettigrew) > was compassionate to V and saved his life once. Then V owed Lily. > 2nd: If Harry is soooo compassionate that he can't stand a side and let a > muggle (like Dudley) or a wizard (like Pettigrew) be killed, then how can > he kill V? Maybe thats when Pettigrew steps in. He still owes Harry his > life. ...Pettigrew still has time to change his spots. > > Thanks for the thoughts Hitomi! Hitomi: Ok, first and foremost, thank you Kathy and Nora Renka (in your e- mail) for your support and compliments. It's greatly appreciated and valued ;) But getting to the actual posting part: concerning the first question. My theory, unless of course we're given more information, such as your suggestion that perhaps Lily once saved LV's life (which is a rather interesting theory, and made me think quite a bit), is that LV just couldn't be bothered killing Lily, especially since his main threat (due to the prophecy) was Harry. I'm sure he would have killed Lily after having killed Harry (had he been able to do so), but at that immediate moment, Lily was probably just in the way. LV has been shown to be very apathetic in some instances, and Lily was not his immediate concern. Weak theory, I know, but the best I can come up with given what little information we have. I doubt, even if Lily had saved his life, that LV would have taken that into consideration. Remember, that would go into the category of that "ancient magic" DD mentions, the magic LV despises, and thus underestimates, because he can't understand love. Which begs the question of when Lily saved her son, was that also in accordance with the prophecy, or in other words, was she helping to fulfill it (assuming she might not have known of Trelawney's prophecy)? I could go on and on about this, but I'm basically just going to wait until we know more, because there isn't any real point. It's just arguing theories, and I don't feel like arguing something I can't give real proof for. But again, your suggestion definitely made me think. I hope Book 6 comes out soon (well sooner than another two and a half years). Second question: Harry's compassion could also lead to his killing LV. I look at it this way (though, of course, we know Harry's having saved Peter will come into play, and your theory is more than valid) - whenever it comes down to Harry vs. LV, as it most likely will, Harry will be making the decision between the world and one evil man. And I know Harry would shoulder the burden of murder if it meant saving those he loves, especially Ron and Hermione. His memory of Ron and Hermione saved him from the dementors in the beginning of Book 5. This may sound cliche, but for them, for their life and happiness, Harry would kill. And that's why I sometimes wonder if Harry will actually die or not (which would be beyond depressing). Could Harry actually live with such a burden? I don't know. I'm not saying he'd willingly kill himself, of course not, but death is the "next great adventure for the well-organized mind." It would be Tolkien-ish, having Harry willing go to rest, but it's a hypothetical ending I'm working with, and unlikely to happen. Still, it's worth thinking about. But yes, Harry's compassion is one of the things I love most about him. His empathy. ~ Hitomi, who again offers her thanks From warhound at accessus.net Wed Feb 4 05:20:58 2004 From: warhound at accessus.net (Beverly Adams) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 05:20:58 -0000 Subject: Will Parvati and Lavender become ghosts??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90245 I was listening to my PoA tape, again, and a phrase leapt out at me in Chapter 8 "Flight of the Fat Lady." From PoA US hardback edition page 142: "(Harry) couldn't like Professor Trelawney, even though she was treated with respect bordering on reverence by many of the class. Parvati Patil and Lavender Brown had taken to *haunting Professor Trelawney's tower room* at lunchtimes..." Maybe it's just because I've been reading too many posts regarding the meaning behind minutia, but it made me wonder if Parvati and Lavender will die in one of the next two books and become ghosts. Or is it just a simple statement to show how PP and LB hero worship Prof. Trelawney? Of course the next question is: "Why would they need to become ghosts?" A first thought is for them to help Harry understand death and why some wizards/witches become ghosts. But since they would be staying in Prof. Trelawney's tower room, would Harry even be going up there and talking to them? He doesn't like Prof. T so why would he want to hang around there even if it was to find out more about the death process. Another thought is that they would be there to keep an eye on Prof. T while Dumbledore waited for her next prediction. Seems like a waste of two people's lives, though, just to babysit Trelawney. Anybody else, with a better imagination than me, have any theories? Beverly (whose 14-year-old daughter made fun of her by saying, "You know they use the word "and" a lot in these books. What do you think that means???") From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Wed Feb 4 06:05:06 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 06:05:06 -0000 Subject: Holly and Yew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90246 --- > Bookworm wrote: > I looked at the two runes Hermione mentioned after her exam rather > than a matter of holly versus yew. Instead of repeating it all here, > I'll refer you to my earlier post (#90187). I think you found the > same site I did - did you see the page on ehwaz, too? The > information fits Harry nicely, but the information on ehwaz makes a > provocative counterpoint. I'd be interested in your thoughts. > Ravenclaw Bookworm Sawsan here: I did look up the ehwaz as well, but I guess I wrote it off for two reasons: first the shape was all wrong to me :P and second because even Hermione noticed that she confused them both and the eihwaz was what she needed or something to that effect. I do see what you mean though, and I find that quite interesting... but the reason I was thinking about the Holly and Yew is because the Yew definately goes along with Harry's scar and the Eihwaz rune, I was just hoping to see if Harry's wand had any significance, though I do not know why anymore. I wonder why Hermione hasn't noticed or mentioned anything about Harry's scar and the eihwaz rune, now that I actually looked it up and thanks to the people who noticed it before, I am surprised at Hermione's not even showing any remote interest in the similarities. So now I am wondering whether Hermione did notice, but either did not want to bring it up or was forced not to (she hides things from Harry and Ron a few times IE Lupin=Werewolf, the time turner, etc) or if she genuinely misses something very important that seems to be staring her in the face constantly. I also want to know if there is something in the eihwaz rune that has something to do with the "more wonderful and more terrible than death" part of the prophesy, considering it has strong ties to death and rebirth and so on. Also, considering the rebirth part of the rune, I almost want to think that since Harry was the only known person to survive the AK curse, that he might be the only known person to come back from the dead as well. I know that is farfetched, but JKR always likes to throw in the fact that Harry might not live at the end of the series, but I find it unlikely that if he does die that he will stay dead. Do I make any sense? :P Sawsan From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Wed Feb 4 06:10:35 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 06:10:35 -0000 Subject: Avada Kadavra Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90247 I know there have been many discussions about if Sirius is really dead, but then I got to thinking, didn't Nearly Headless Nick say something about people who die happy don't come back or something along those lines? Or at least I think someone said that anyway. So that got me to thinking, how many of the people who died via AK died happy? That just didn't make any sense to me at all. I know the bit about being courageous enough to die and such, but to die happy? I doubt anyone who was AK'd would be happy. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am definately going to look that bit up again. From d.marchel at comcast.net Wed Feb 4 02:05:06 2004 From: d.marchel at comcast.net (Dysis) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 02:05:06 -0000 Subject: Colin's camera? In-Reply-To: <401F9810.6614.10855C3@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90248 Shaun Hately: > > Who said his camera was electrical? > > Plenty of normal Muggle camera's aren't electrical, and I can't > recall anything in the book that indicates Colin has more than a > basic camera. Dysis again: Any cameras that I know of work on batteries. Hmmm. Maybe I'm not exposed enough to this world . . . lol! From a_williams1 at pacific.edu Wed Feb 4 06:04:58 2004 From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:04:58 -0800 Subject: Weasley-Sirius family Message-ID: <005801c3eae4$d19bd640$7f420a0a@bre.uop.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 90249 Nuri wrote: 2. Molly's cousin to Sirius by Marriage because her brother or sister is married to one of Sirius's cousins. The thing, then, is *who* those two could be. Could we have Molly Malfoy -Weasley? Lestrange- Weasley? Either that or Sirius really find it tricky to determine family grades of relative-ness. ;) Cheers, Nuri Hi Nuri, Several months ago... I think in August or so... about how I think Molly may be Molly Malfoy. I don't know why I can't find my post in the archives... I typed my email addresses and my name and a few key words and nothing came up. Anyway, I think that Molly Malfoy may be they younger (well, I don't know, maybe older) sister of Lucius Malfoy, and that's part of the reason that Malfoy is so mean to the Weasleys... I can't remember all I wrote in my post, and I wish I knew what the number was or what I titled the post! Anyway, I too think that perhaps Molly is related "by marriage" because she's Lucius' sister. But is that too far away to be related by marriage? I don't know... Aesha Williams [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From john_the_walker82 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 3 19:38:21 2004 From: john_the_walker82 at yahoo.co.uk (john_the_walker82) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:38:21 -0000 Subject: Houses Unite! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90250 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > It's been pounded into our heads just how much slytherin and > gryffindor hate each other. Throughout all five books, the anamosity > is present and reinforced by jo. Doesn't Ron joke after the sorting > in book 5, after Hermione makes the comment about unity, that he > wouldn't ever become friends with slytherin's? > > But, it seems that perhaps everything is building toward that > outcome. > > So, even if all of the houses have to unite there will still be > stragglers- some, like malfoy and the thugs and that cow parkinson- > probably won't join our side- but what about the rest of the > slytherin house mates? Are they all like Malfoy? I can't recall one > episode that Harry has had with a slytherin that has been positive, > so, what will finally convince Harry and Ron to forget about how > much they hate Slytherin? > > Perhaps they need to find out about some decent > slytherin's......????? I think this will happen, and is symbolised by Blaise Zabini. Why else the complete ambiguity surrounding this character, right down to the question of gender. I doubt it will hapen until Book 7 though. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Feb 4 07:41:58 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 07:41:58 -0000 Subject: Question: Baruffio and the buffalo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: Neri: > > I would have thought that the editors got it mixed up as usual and > it > > actually should have written "said `f' instead of `s' ", but what > the > > @$#& is a "bussalo"??? Do we need a Latin expert here? > > > > Thanks, > > Neri Ravenclaw Bookworm: > According to the dictionary.com/translate page, 'bussalo' is Italian > for 'it knocks'. I wonder what Wizard Baruffio was really trying to > do...? Geoff: That assumes that the word "buffalo" was part of the spell. I would agree that to mix up 's' and 'f', it might have to be in a different language (such as Latin). There are certain words in, for example, German which I sometimes have trouble pronouncing clearly although they have never produced such drastic results. :-) From Tigerstormxx at aol.com Wed Feb 4 07:44:25 2004 From: Tigerstormxx at aol.com (james320152002) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 07:44:25 -0000 Subject: Avada Kadavra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90252 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > I know there have been many discussions about if Sirius is really > dead, but then I got to thinking, didn't Nearly Headless Nick say > something about people who die happy don't come back or something > along those lines? Or at least I think someone said that anyway. So > that got me to thinking, how many of the people who died via AK died > happy? That just didn't make any sense to me at all. I know the bit > about being courageous enough to die and such, but to die happy? I > doubt anyone who was AK'd would be happy. Please correct me if I am > wrong. I am definately going to look that bit up again. Well I don't think Nearly Headless Nick meant happy. Just that coming back as a ghost is really really rare. Those that do come back do not accept there death. Sirius Black was not afraid of death therefore he accepted it so he probably won't be coming back. From naama_gat at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 09:55:56 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 09:55:56 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > Carol: > > Two things here that I mentioned before but they seem to have been > overlooked. First, "mimble wimble" is what Harry hears, not > necessarily what Uncle Vernon says. We all know that Harry's > perception of what is happening around him is not infallible. The question is not whether Mimble Wimble is what Harry heard or what Vernon said (or both). As fictional characters, they neither really speak or hear. The question is, why did JKR choose to put those specific words/sounds in Vernon's mouth (or Harry's ears). Do you really think that it was purely by accident? That it's a coincidence that she had Vernon say Mimble Wimble and had given that exact name to a magical plant? She is such a careful writer, and she has spent so long planning this story, going over the various details of the Potterverse and the plot, that it seems highly unlikely to me. > > Uncle Vernon, as Hagrid makes clear in that same scene and JKR states > emphatically in every book, is the ultimate Muggle. Whatever the > significance of "mimble wimble," and I'm not questioning a possible > connection with Mimbulus Mimbletonia, it's highly likely that it > relates to Uncle Vernon having magical powers or an intuitve >knowledge of countercurses. If there is one message that JKR is anxious to get through the books, it's the danger of prejudice. Another important message is the importance of choice over inborn ability. In the Potterverse, the most important divide, and around which there is the strongest prejudice, is between magic and Muggle. On the face of it, it is not a matter of choice to which group you belong - you have either been born with magical ability, or not. So, it would be very much in keeping with JKR''s central messages that the biggest Muggle of them all would turn out to be a latent wizard, who *chose* to be a Muggle. Maybe Vernon's parents did to him what he tried to do to Harry, and squashed the magic out of him? Wouldn't that explain his rabid antagonism to anything magic? Naama Naama From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Feb 4 09:57:45 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 04:57:45 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colin's camera? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90255 In a message dated 2/4/2004 1:35:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, Dysis (d.marchel at comcast.net) writes: Dysis again: Any cameras that I know of work on batteries. Hmmm. Maybe I'm not exposed enough to this world . . . lol! ************************************** Sherrie here: Most modern cameras do have a battery - but as it's been pointed out, that's primarily for the flash. Older camers, though, didn't have such a thing - I remember having an old Brownie camera as a kid (that was the name of the camera - didn't have anything to do with the Girl Scouts) - not a battery to be found. Heck, my grandparents had an old Bell & Howell movie camera - you cranked it to run it! Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 4 10:42:51 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 10:42:51 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90256 sawsan wrote: << Is it coincidence that Snape is especially horrible to Harry and Neville, considering they are both eligible to be "the one" of the prophesy? I know that he is horrible to the Gryffindors anyway, but I noticed he seems even more so to Harry and Neville. Neville is terrified of Snape, and I know that Snape finds Neville to be a complete idiot in his eyes, but I don't think that's the only reason. I also know of Snape's hatred of James and the Marauders. But I think there has to be more to it. Any thoughts?>> Sigune reflects: I am aware of the fact that this does not really answer your question, but you set me thinking about the nature of Snape's contempt for Neville. I may be too positive towards Snape here, but it has always seemed to me that what fuels our Potion Master's contempt is the fact that Neville definitely has something in him but doesn't work hard enough to make it come out. Something similar goes for Harry: Snape knows that he is capable of surprisingly great things (saving the Stone, defeating Riddle, winning the Triwizard Tournament...), yet in Potions class he keeps messing up through such stupid things as skipping a line in a recipe. This has nothing to do with talent or capability and everything with attention. And inattention freaks Snape out. As to Neville, he has been treated as a near-Squib all the time, but since his joining the DA we have seen he is actually rather apt at Charms; that would suggest to me he isn't a near-Squib at all, and that Snape's impatience is not without reason. Of course that doesn't justify his extremely nasty behaviour as a teacher at all; but as far as I can see Snape is never friendly with anyone. Now if Snape's antipathy towards Harry and Neville has anything to do with their both being the "one" from the prophecy, that would be really unsettling; and not wanting to consider Traitor!Snape an option, I will leave the theorising on that point to others :)... Yours severely, Sigune From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 09:51:35 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 09:51:35 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90257 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > Is it coincidence that Snape is especially horrible to Harry and > Neville, considering they are both eligible to be "the one" of the > prophesy? IMO, he is horrible to Neville because Neville is an easy target, not because he's a potential messiah or whatever. I very much doubt DD has shared this particular piece of information with anyone who doesn't need to know it, and at the time the prophecy was made Snape wasn't working at Hogwarts anyway. He was probably off being a Death Eater somewhere or something. Snape is a character I feel a good deal of sympathy for, in many ways, but it would be just like him to pick on the klutzy kid without it occurring to him that he's less klutzy when you aren't picking on him. If you suggested to Snape that Neville might be the Chosen Whatever, he'd probably die laughing. Poor Snape. Brave, basically honourable and decent, if not likable, but he belongs in the research lab, not in the classroom. From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 12:37:11 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 12:37:11 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus In-Reply-To: <8.44d89e81.2d516dd1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, pscospoagofootp at a... wrote: > I have been a lurker for a while and I enjoy all the different theories that > are put forth in this forum. And I have a few of my own and I am going to > share one that I have had since reading gof that was reinforced in ootp. > Dumbledore is an animagus. Most likely a bee or wasp. My proof - At the beginning of > Harry Potter's History of Magic O.W.L. there was a wasp in the upper windows. > American Version of OOTP pg725 line 5 and also I think that is how he can become > invisible without an invisibility cloak. (pardon for not having the > reference) And also his last name is old English for bumblebee. Sorry if this was > scatter brained. It's not the first time there's been a wasp hanging around. Why would JKR call attention to it? Dumbledore is Old English for a wasp, anyway. I'd say the odds DD is an animagus are better than 50- 50. He'd be an unregistered Animagus, though, or Hermione would know. (maybe she does) Someone here once said it would be funny if, with all the *un*registered animagi around, McGonagall was one of the few animagi straitlaced enough to actually register. I always thought that the ability to become an animagus isn't that rare; it's just so much work to learn not many witches or wizards take the trouble. From s_ings at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 13:28:54 2004 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 13:28:54 -0000 Subject: Clarification on Convention Alley Fees and Corrected Registration FAQ link Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90259 To follow-up on the Convention Alley Planning Committee's announcement about the opening of the Convention Alley website and the start of registration, the CA Planning Committee would like to clarify that the cost figures are listed in Canadian dollars. While the conversion is subject to change depending on the value of the Canadian dollar, $200 CAD currently equals approximately $151 US (for registrations before March 30, 2004), and $250 CAD currently equals approximately $189 US for registrations between March 31, 2004 and July 1, 2004). In addition, the link to the registration FAQ should be: http://www.conventionalley.org/registration.html . Message boards have also been added which may be found at: http://pub99.ezboard.com/bconventionalley . Please contact the Convention Alley team at: convention_alley2004 @ hotmail.com (without the spaces) regarding registration questions and at: hpottawa @ yahoo.no(without the spaces) with any other questions. ~Sheryll Townsend on behalf of the 2004 Convention Alley Planning Committee Convention Alley is an unofficial event and is not endorsed or sanctioned by Warner Bros., the Harry Potter book publishers or J.K. Rowling and her representatives. Convention Alley also has no affiliation with HP Education Fanon, Inc. From CoyotesChild at charter.net Wed Feb 4 14:12:02 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:12:02 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colin's camera? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c3eb28$df8aca60$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 90260 > Dysis again: > Any cameras that I know of work on batteries. Hmmm. Maybe I'm not > exposed enough to this world . . . lol! > Iggy here: Ok, gotta step in on this one... My mom was a photography major in college, knows a lot of professional photographers from her PR business, as do my brother-in-law's family, since 3/4 of them are graphic artists who deal with a lot of photography. Through this, I have acquired a pretty decent level of knowledge in the field for someone who has never taken a photography class. (I can take some very good pics, know how to use a lot of different cameras, and even know the basics of film developing.) A good deal of very good quality, professional grade cameras are still available without any electronics in them at all. Even the more common cameras that people use only have a battery in them to activate the flash bulb. (to be honest, the electronics in the early models... such as the one Colin uses in the movies, have such a basic grade of electrical system as to not even really count as electronics... it's merely a very simple, quick activating circuit. Give me a battery, 2 small wires, and a flash bulb, and I can produce the same effect.) Most of the electronics relating to cameras are either for the flash, or for the "auto-film advancer." (And even those are removable on most professional grade cameras.) The extension cable for the shutter button, the timer, and the shutter itself, for example, are all purely mechanical. And unless you have an auto focus function, the focus itself is manually operated. I would also state the hypothesis that it's not ALL electronics that fail at Hogwarts, merely the more complex electrical devices. (I can't imagine a school of sorcery not having some simple, hand driven generator for some of their classes, like advanced potions. After all, if you don't have the skill to conjure a lightning bolt, how else will you catalyze some potion ingredients?) >From this, we can assume that simple things, like the flash on Colin's camera or a basic pen-light (if anyone ever thinks to bring one and try to use it) would actually works. For one thing, if there's a spell over Hogwarts that suppresses ALL electrical reaction or conductivity, then people would drop dead at the gates, any spells involving electricity wouldn't work and couldn't be taught, and you'd never see a single thunderstorm in the sky over the school. Iggy McSnurd From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 14:52:39 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 14:52:39 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and Blood Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90261 > I personally think she's motivated simply by innate cruelty and lust > for power, and any student who thwarts her, or any teacher who appears > vulnerable (Hagrid and Trelawney) is a potential victim. It's the Ring > for poor little Smeagol, I mean, power for poor little Delores--and > for the MoM as long as it supports and promotes her. > Carol, who would love to see the Toad Lady toadlady disgraced. (Don't > ask me to decipher the pun. ;-p ) The pun was GREAT! The only thing that will make me laugh harder about all of this is the first time we hear her call the quill, "My Precious!" Julie From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Feb 4 11:26:56 2004 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 06:26:56 EST Subject: Snape and Draco / Despised Lackey or Social Equal? Message-ID: <119.2e8294c4.2d523100@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90262 Rachel: > On reading the books, I have never got the impression that Snape > is trying to "molly coddle" Draco and I can't think of any canon to > support his feeling of sympathy towards Draco(but if you can find > any please do tell me because it could be an angle that I have just > never seen before). Eloise: It's an angle that comes from my own analysis of Snape's character, more than anything else, working backwards in an attempt to explain why he is like he is. Also (and here I'm in danger of getting into trouble as has happened before, because if you say parallel, people have a tendency to think you mean an exact parallel and I don't) there seems to be some analogy being drawn between the Draco/Harry antipathy and the Severus/James one. Now that could work both ways. Either it could mislead, or it could be genuine and if so Severus could be homing in on that antipathy to Harry, which would be another point of identification. What I also must make clear is that I'm talking about a degree of *identification*, not of sympathy or liking. I'm saying that at some psychological level, Snape may favour Draco because in doing so he is fulfilling psychological needs of his own which frankly *cannot* have been fulfilled as a child, IMO. Just look at him. Did that man have a happy childhood? Was he made to feel good about himself? Did anyone ever give him any sense of self worth? I doubt it very much. The behaviour we see from him in the Pensieve and during the action of the books suggests otherwise. I'm suggesting that he's not favouring *Draco*, he's favouring juvenile Severus, a Severus who still, in his thirties, needs to grow up in many ways. Rachel: > I took the scene where Snape orders Dracos ingredients to be cut > up for him, more as Snapes way at getting at Harry by forcing his > best friend to do work for Draco. Eloise: That element is undoubtedly there. He does like to get at Harry through his friends. But conscious and unconscious motivations can go hand in hand. Rachel: > I agree with Sigune in respect that Draco is too stupid (not > academically but with regards to common sense and awareness), for > Snape to respect him all that much. I get the feeling more that > Snape likes to portray overt favouritism towards Draco, in order to > annoy Harry and highlight his dislike for Harry and show that just > because other people think he's so great, Snape definately does not > agree. In Snapes eyes, the more he supports and favouritises Draco, > the more it puts Harry in his place. Eloise: True. But the emphasis is on his favouritism of *Draco* in particular. OK there are good practical reasons for this, aside from the fact that we're seeing things largely from Harry's POV. But I still see potential parallels. Carol: >But also consider what working for a >living, even in a "genteel" position like teaching, did to the >person's social status. Lucius Malfoy reminds me of the "gentlemen" in >Jane Austen's novels who consider work of any kind beneath them, and >for that reason I think he would see himself as socially superior to >Snape. Eloise: A very good point which I failed to make! Yes. I think there is a crucial difference there. Interestingly, though he speaks as if Draco will need to pursue a profession. I wonder why? I too have always assumed that Lucius lived off inherited wealth. I wonder why he thinks Draco *needs* good grades. Carol: >Also their relationship when they were both in Slytherin may >affect their current friendship or whatever we should call it. Snape >is considerably younger (four or five years), and that age difference >would have shaped the way Lucius treated Severus in the two years >during which they both attended Hogwarts. Eloise: According to the dates available to the Lexicon, it's more like six years, so Lucius would have been taking his NEWTS while Severus was still a first year. Carol: >Severus would have been a >precocious little boy and Lucius the presumed leader of the gang of >Slytherins which he let Severus join. (I base "leader" on Malfoy's >taking the lead in the Muggle baiting and in the raid on the DoM.) Eloise: I guess he probably stood out, but I wonder if Lucius would have taken much notice of a greasy-haired little oddball like that. Social notice, that is. If his talent were precocious, then I can see that he might have noted it. Carol: I think that's where Sirius's snide reference to Snape as Malfoy's "lap dog" comes in. He can't know how they interact as adults, but he does apparently know that Severus was Malfoy's "little pet" (which is what "lap dog" means) when they were boys. Eloise: It's quite possible. But Sirius is quite capable of being snide just because Snape, well, exists. I thought that this remark was simply meant to cast aspersions on Severus, imply that Snape's meetings with Lucius (presumably reported to the Order) are the reverse of what they are reported to be. Just a nasty way of accusing him of being still in Voldemort's service, in the process riling Snape further, because Lucius' lap dog is no doubt *exactly* what Snape is having to pretend to be and I can't see him enjoying that. Not to mention giving JKR (via Snape's dialogue) a neat way of leading in to the fact that Lucius had recognised Sirius. I'm not sure that it *has* to have a retrospective meaning. Carol: >I'm almost certain that he thinks Snape is still a loyal Death Eater >(Snape must have explained to him why he couldn't be at the graveyard >in GoF) and that Malfoy is the means by which Snape finds out what LV >is telling his Death Eaters. I don't have any proof of this, but I'm >thinking of Snape's mission at the end of GoF and his words to Harry >in one of the occlumency scenes in OoP Eloise: I still wonder about that one. We don't know that all the DEs know each others' identities. Snape's starting at the mention of Lucius' name when Harry describes the graveyard scene could be explained in conflicting ways. It could have been shock, not realising that Lucius *was* a DE; it could have been the confirmation of a suspicion; it could have been concern that Lucius would realise he was missing. Ages ago, some work was done trying to put all the DEs into their respective cells. I think the original idea came from Peg Kerr (29347): it was thought that it was probably prudent that not all DEs knew each other. Later others (Eileen, I think was involved) tried to work out who probably knew each other. Unfortunately I've not managed to find the respective posts yet (although I think Tom might have been looking at DE posts recently). Even in the graveyard they are masked: it is Voldemort who has the privilege of naming and shaming or else praising. Knowing your place in the circle does not mean you know the identity of everyone else (though granted, once any dialogue ensues, then you'd be able to identify wizards you knew). Julie: >>Snape is able to project a strong aura of power and intimidation in >>the books, besides the added impression of residual DE nastiness that >>Harry and gang know about from his past, but set that aside (and it >>can be as he was very careful, almost meek, in his dealings with >>Doris Umbridge). Carol: >Meek? That's not how I read the scene. He clearly has as much contempt >for Delores Umbridge as McGonagall does and is not about to let her >control his class or to give her information that he regards as onone >of her business. ("I suggest you ask Professor Dumbledore.") Umbridge >intimidates Trelawney and confuses Hagrid, giving her grounds to >report them as incompetent and suggest their removal. Snape gives her >no such ammunition. Eloise: Snape's position is very precarious. He had Fudge on his side, but he has now *told* him that he was a DE (though how he didn't already know, I have no idea). As he did with Fake!Moody, he has to play an ultra-cautious game with Umbridge. The last thing he needs is for all the parents to be told that he was a DE or for Umbridge to suspend him. If he were outed, then I guess Lucius would do all in his power to avoid him. He'd also be away from Hogwarts and the protections it affords. ~Eloise Who spent far too long trying to write this because of the infernal slowness of Yahoo today. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Feb 4 15:54:15 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 15:54:15 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" wrote: > > Now if Snape's antipathy towards Harry and Neville has anything to do > with their both being the "one" from the prophecy, that would be > really unsettling; and not wanting to consider Traitor!Snape an > option, I will leave the theorising on that point to others :)... > Personally, I don't believe that there is real antithapy. Or at least not on Snape's side. The boys probably hate him, but that doesn't worry Ole Sevvy in the least. Oh, sure, he finds Harry and Neville irritating, but so what? After 14 years as a teacher it wouldn't be anything he hasn't come across before. IMO it's all part of Snape's invented personna; the DE friendly exterior he shows to the world while secretly beavering away for the Order (and his own ends). At Hogwarts Snape is a member of the Sevvy/DD double act - Snape plays the hard man, DD plays the persuader and they both know exactly what they're doing and why. You'll note that whenever Snape demands that Harry be expelled, it is always to DD and in front of Harry. Does he expect his (apparent) wish to be granted? Like hell! It's playacting and recognised as such by DD. The only time Snape has been *really* angry was in the Shrieking Shack and then not at Harry. You'll also note that he rarely if ever gives detention to Harry or Neville, though he could find reasons to do so almost daily. It's invariably "Points from Gryffindor!" Nothing personal in that. Snape is DD's watch-dog; he's allowed to growl, but not bite. Kneasy From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 16:14:23 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 16:14:23 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > Is it coincidence that Snape is especially horrible to Harry and > Neville, considering they are both eligible to be "the one" of the > prophesy? But I think > there has to be more to it. Anythoughts? > > Sawsan "K" I agree. I know Snape isn't the nicest person in the world and I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but I do believe Snape is aware of the Prophecy. IMO Snape is preparing Harry and Neville for whatever may come their way. From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 17:24:38 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 17:24:38 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > > > <> > Carol: > > Two things here that I mentioned before but they seem to have been > overlooked. First, "mimble wimble" is what Harry hears, not > necessarily what Uncle Vernon says. SNIP What exactly would the point be of Harry hearing something that wasn't actually said? Harry hears Uncle Vernon mutter what sounded like 'mimble wimble'- can we argue that wasn't actually what Uncle Vernon said? Absolutely. But, IT'S IN THE BOOK! Personally, I don't disregard anything that's in the book, especially if suspicion or doubt, on Harry's part anyway, is present. We all know that Harry's perception of what is happening around him is not infallible. SNIP : Agreed! But, it's far more insightful to study what is going on around Harry, that how he reacts to it. > > Second, the "mimble wimble" scene occurs nine pages before the attempt > to turn Dudley into a pig. SNIP Nine pages, right. But, Carol, act it out. How long does nine pages actually take to act out? Maybe, a few minutes? How much dialogue is there in those nine pages? I think we can both agree that speaking nine pages worth of dialogue/text would only take a few minutes in real time. I provided the page numbers with the > appropriate quotes in a previous post. (IIRC, Uncle Vernon's words and > actions have no effect on the pig spell; presumably it's Hagrid's lack > of training and his broken wand concealed within an umbrella handle > that prevent the spell from having its full effect, just as the > tortoises in the Transfiguration breathe steam or have > willow-patterned shells.) > > Uncle Vernon, as Hagrid makes clear in that same scene and JKR states > emphatically in every book, is the ultimate Muggle. Whatever the > significance of "mimble wimble," and I'm not questioning a possible > connection with Mimbulus Mimbletonia, it's highly likely that it > relates to Uncle Vernon having magical powers or an intuitve knowledge > of countercurses. > > Carol SNIP Are you sure about that last statement? It sounds like your agreeing with me- perhaps you meant to say, "It's highly unlikely that it relates to Uncle Vernon having magical powers or an intuitive knowledge of counter curses?" I apologize if my comments seem argumentative. Perhaps I am arguing, but I believe this very much. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. No harm done, and it'll be fun seeing where I went wrong! I just don't take anything for granted in the HP books. And, I try to decipher between blatant red herring story line clues, and SEEMINGLY blatant red herring story line/septology clues. LizVega~ who loves these discussions! From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 4 17:30:28 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 17:30:28 -0000 Subject: Despised lackey or social equal Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90266 This is such a fascinating thread, one of the most interesting we have had for some time. Can I make a small, slightly OT point. Someone (Julie?) saw the position of a teacher in WW as similar to that in the Victorian age and cited Nicholas Nickleby as an example. But Nicholas was always "a gentleman" even when working for Squeers and was not in any way a trained teacher. Julie (this time I'm sure it was Julie!) went on to describe Snape in terms I totally agreewith: >I tend to read Snape (his dress speech patterns, method of teaching, emphasis on respect and obedience) as someone who has struggled for what he has and is very much on guard against losing it, rather than born to wealth and power and easy social connections like the Malfoys> This is a perfect description of another Dickens character, Bradley Headstone from Our Mutual Friend, a teacher who has dragged himself up by his bootstraps and lives in fear of losing what it has cost him so much to achieve. Like Snape, he is a power-house of barely controlled passion, and he has his own Lucius Malfoy in Eugene Wrayburn, born to wealth and power and easy social connections. Sylvia From belijako at online.no Wed Feb 4 17:28:27 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 17:28:27 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and Blood Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90267 Carol wrote: The only student besides Harry that we know was made to write lines on his own hand with that poison pen is Lee Jordan, and we have no indication that he's a half blood or Muggle-born. So whatever Umbridge's motive in choosing her victims, I don't think it's the purity of their blood. I personally think she's motivated simply by innate cruelty and lust for power, and any student who thwarts her, or any teacher who appears vulnerable (Hagrid and Trelawney) is a potential victim. Berit replies: I agree with you; Umbridge's motive seems to be driven by a hunger for power rather than an urge to purify the world of halfbloods or Muggle-borns. Just a little comment on Harry and Lee being the only ones we know of being punished by having to write lines. There is strong canon evidence (not clearcut proof though) that quite a large number of students were punished this way: Quote: "After putting four successive classes in detention and failing to discover their secret, she was forced to give up and allow the bleeding, swooning, sweating and vomiting students to leaved her classes in droves" (OoP p. 597 UK Ed). The reason I believe the students of these four classes were punished by writing lines with her cruel quill, is that this is the only type of detention Umbridge ever set (as far as canon tells us). But then all those students should be walking around with "I shall respect my elders" or "I shall not tell lies" on the back of their hands, but we don't see anyone but Harry doing that? The answer would be that the students of the four classes were given only a day each of detention; there were simply too many miscreants around for Umbridge to have them all sit in detention for weeks at a time :-) Compare this to the quote on Mr. Filch: Quote: "Filch prowled the corridors with a horsewhip ready at his hands, desperate to catch miscreants, but the problem was that there were now so many of them he never knew which way to turn." (p. 597) That would have been Umbridge's challenge as well :-). So it is therefore safe to assume that Harry's long detentions were an exception to the rule. So he's the only one were the quill made a lasting impression. Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Wed Feb 4 08:44:54 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 08:44:54 -0000 Subject: Great Uncle Algie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90268 Hi, If Mimbulus Mimbletonia is truly the courage plant, as it is being made out to be, then I wonder at the timing of the present of it to Neville by his uncle Algie. Did Algie forsee that Neville would be needing a boost in his courage quotient and so went to great lengths to procure this rare plant? That means, of course, that the Longbottoms are more tuned in with the happenings than has been previously suggested. There were a couple of posts wondering why Neville's relatives(his grandmom and all) have not participated in the workings of the Order. Maybe they do, in a very longshot way. Bye, aditya From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Wed Feb 4 13:02:23 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 13:02:23 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew Power Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90269 Hitomi wrote: > Second question: Harry's compassion could also lead to his killing > LV. I look at it this way (though, of course, we know Harry's > having saved Peter will come into play, and your theory is more than > valid) - whenever it comes down to Harry vs. LV, as it most likely > will, Harry will be making the decision between the world and one > evil man. And I know Harry would shoulder the burden of murder if > it meant saving those he loves, especially Ron and Hermione. Sawsan here: Interesting theory Hitomi. I am inclined to think that Harry can actually kill Voldie without actually murdering him though. Perhaps "killing" Voldie could mean distroying the evil side of Tom Riddle. I think, though I haven't exactly thought how, he can find a goodness in himself that also reflects back to Voldie, thus "killing" the Dark Lord and redeeming Tom Riddle. Just a thought, but we already know that the wands don't want to attack each other and that Harry does not want to have to hurt or kill anyone. Any thoughts? Sawsan From SFischer at Hunter.COM Wed Feb 4 17:34:05 2004 From: SFischer at Hunter.COM (Fischer, Shari) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:34:05 -0600 Subject: The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90270 bboy wrote: > Speculation on future events- > > Question in two parts, what do you think will > happen to Umbridge as a result of her actions > before and at Hogwarts, and what do you hope > will happen to her? Hi! This is my first post, so I hope I do this right! I've been wondering the same thing about Umbridge. Will she turn against Fudge and the MOM because they finally believe Voldemort's back? She obviously hates DD, and he's been restored to the Wizengamot. Now that she is no longer able to use any of them to get her 'sadistic control' fix, will she join Voldemort? If the DEs are in Azkaban, he needs someone still on the outside to help him. She might be easily persuaded to join him. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 18:56:57 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 18:56:57 -0000 Subject: Great Uncle Algie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90271 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > Hi, > > If Mimbulus Mimbletonia is truly the courage plant, as it is being > made out to be, then I wonder at the timing of the present of it to > Neville by his uncle Algie. Did Algie forsee that Neville would be > needing a boost in his courage quotient and so went to great lengths > to procure this rare plant? That means, of course, that the > Longbottoms are more tuned in with the happenings than has been > previously suggested. There were a couple of posts wondering why > Neville's relatives(his grandmom and all) have not participated in > the workings of the Order. Maybe they do, in a very longshot way. > > Bye, > aditya I've always wondered about Great Uncle Algie and Gran, thinking that there was more to them that met the eye. I've thought they might be on the darker side, not necessarily DEs. However, your idea makes a whole lot of sense. If Uncle Algie is more in tuned, I really wonder if Gran is. If she is more aware of the workings of the Order, why would she so readily dismiss the gum wrappers Nevilld's mom gives him on his visits? What is your opinion? Julie (who always has suspected more from Neville's family) From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 18:56:11 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 18:56:11 -0000 Subject: Colin's camera? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90272 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Or maybe you're just young. A camera is just light on silver salts. A common kiddie science project back in the day was a simple box camera, which was a black box with a pinhole, somewhat akin to the homemade devices you use to observe an eclipse. Of course, as you can tell from my description, I was no kid physicist. I had to use a storebought Brownie camera... --JDR From hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu Wed Feb 4 19:24:19 2004 From: hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu (phanbu) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:24:19 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90273 Jim Ferer wrote: > He'd be an unregistered Animagus, though, or Hermione would > know. (maybe she does) Hermione mentioned that she read a list of all animagi registered within the last century. Perhaps Albus wasn't on that list because he registered longer ago. From entropymail at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 20:10:59 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 20:10:59 -0000 Subject: Great Uncle Algie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90275 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" wrote: > I've always wondered about Great Uncle Algie and Gran, thinking that > there was more to them that met the eye. I've thought they might be > on the darker side, not necessarily DEs. However, your idea makes a > whole lot of sense. If Uncle Algie is more in tuned, I really > wonder if Gran is. If she is more aware of the workings of the > Order, why would she so readily dismiss the gum wrappers Nevilld's > mom gives him on his visits? What is your opinion? I've always felt that Gran and her brother, Great Uncle Algie, have had very different ideas about how to best protect Neville from Voldemort and the Death Eaters. From the start, Algie has been trying to eke some bit of magical talent out of Neville. He knows his parents were powerful, so why shouldn't Neville be? His Gran, however, has been doing her best to make Neville believe that he is nearly a squib. She's given him a wand which has not "chosen" him, and constantly compares him to his full-grown wizard dad...not to mention a possible charm which may keep him a bit "flumoxed" and a suspicious Trevor toad which I'm sure is no normal toad (!) Why? To protect him, of course! If Voldemort believes that Neville's talents are negligible, he won't even bother to go after him as he has so vehemently gone after poor Harry. In a way, she's hiding Neville in plain sight. Brilliant! :: Entropy :: From belijako at online.no Wed Feb 4 20:28:56 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 20:28:56 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90276 Sigune wrote: I may be too positive towards Snape here, but it has always seemed to me that what fuels our Potion Master's contempt is the fact that Neville definitely has something in him but doesn't work hard enough to make it come out. Now if Snape's antipathy towards Harry and Neville has anything to do with their both being the "one" from the prophecy, that would be really unsettling Berit replies: So, the reasons I have seen listed so far, are: 1. Snape is being cruel to Neville because like the bully he is he picks on the weaker students 2. Snape is angry at Neville for not working harder 3. Snape is "toughening" up both Neville and Harry because of the prophecy, getting them ready for the fight. I guess it's possible all three could be right. There's also a possible fourth reason why Snape is picking on Neville: Neville regularly visits his parents at the ward at St. Mungo's. They share the room with barking and hairy Agnes who has an as of yet unnamed son. If she turns out to be Snape's mother, the likelihood of Neville knowing about it is very high. So maybe the reason Snape is cruel to Neville is the same reason he is cruel to Harry: Punishing him for being his father's son (punishing Neville for being so tactless as to know about the humiliation of his mother). Well, this is my pet theory at the moment :-) Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From belijako at online.no Wed Feb 4 20:06:37 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 20:06:37 -0000 Subject: Colin's camera? In-Reply-To: <000101c3eb28$df8aca60$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90277 Iggy wrote: >From this, we can assume that simple things, like the flash on Colin's camera or a basic pen-light (if anyone ever thinks to bring one and try to use it) would actually work. For one thing, if there's a spell over Hogwarts that suppresses ALL electrical reaction or conductivity, then people would drop dead at the gates, any spells involving electricity wouldn't work and couldn't be taught, and you'd never see a single thunderstorm in the sky over the school. Berit replies: Very well put Iggy! There's a difference between working devices such as microphones ("bugging devices"), walkmen, PC's etc. which are finely tuned, delicately wrought electronics as opposed to a simple flashlight on an otherwise manually worked camera. I don't think a Muggle radio would work though; not because the batteries themselves wouldn't work, but because the magic, in much the same way as a magnetic field, would interfere with and distort the radio waves. But that's just my guess :-) Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 21:15:25 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:15:25 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90278 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > There's also a > possible fourth reason why Snape is picking on Neville: Neville > regularly visits his parents at the ward at St. Mungo's. They share > the room with barking and hairy Agnes who has an as of yet unnamed > son. If she turns out to be Snape's mother, the likelihood of Neville > knowing about it is very high. So maybe the reason Snape is cruel to > Neville is the same reason he is cruel to Harry: Punishing him for > being his father's son (punishing Neville for being so tactless as to > know about the humiliation of his mother). Well, this is my pet > theory at the moment :-) "K" I'm glad you brought this back up. I did see the Agnes post and never had time to respond. It's a very good theory and one I could believe in. The part about Agnes being Snape's mother, that is. I would also like to point out that it's possible the son who is visiting his mother is a student at Hogwarts. However, I lean towards Snape. But I don't believe the main reason Snape is mean/cruel/whatever to Neville is because of the situation at St. Mungo's. Nor do I believe the main reason Snape treats Harry as he does is due to Harry being the son of James. There's surely more to it than that. Also, in my mind I pictured Neville's parents as being totally unable to understand anything and that was not the case. So if Agnes is the mother of Snape, maybe it's Snape who is slipping something to Frank and Alice Longbottom during his visits. For their cure, of course. I am interested in dear Agnes, poor thing, and I do believe we will see her again. "K" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 22:16:26 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:16:26 -0000 Subject: Question: Baruffio and the buffalo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90279 > Neri: I would have thought that the editors got it mixed up as usual and it actually should have written "said `f' instead of `s' ", but what the @$#& is a "bussalo"??? Do we need a Latin expert here? Ravenclaw Bookworm: According to the dictionary.com/translate page, 'bussalo' is Italian for 'it knocks'. > > > Geoff: > That assumes that the word "buffalo" was part of the spell. I would > agree that to mix up 's' and 'f', it might have to be in a different > language (such as Latin). Carol: I'm also assuming that the spell was in Latin, like most spells in the HP books. (Maybe "accio something-or-other"). I tried looking up the Latin for "buffalo" using an online English-to-Latin dictionary and came up with "bubalus." That would mean that Baruffio meant to say something like "accio bubaluf" and said "accio bubalus" instead. But I don't think that would work. "Bubaluf" is worse than "bussalo." Besides, he didn't just conjure up a buffalo by mistake. It landed on his chest! Also, IIRC, the letter "f" isn't all that common in Latin words (except possibly as a spelling to represent that sound in words borrowed from Greek containing the lieeter phi). It's been a very long time since I studied Latin, so I could be wrong. I'm down to the theory that it was just a comic example intended by both Flitwick and JKR to illustrate the importance of correct pronunciation (much like the Diagon Alley/floo powder example that someone (I think Geoff) used in an earlier post. Carol, who thinks the Baruffio story is hilarious regardless of what he was trying to say or do From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 22:32:54 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:32:54 -0000 Subject: The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90280 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fischer, Shari" wrote: > bboy wrote: > > Speculation on future events- > > > > Question in two parts, what do you think will > > happen to Umbridge as a result of her actions > > before and at Hogwarts, and what do you hope > > will happen to her? > > Hi! This is my first post, so I hope I do this right! I've been wondering the same thing about Umbridge. Will she turn against Fudge and the MOM because they finally believe Voldemort's back? She obviously hates DD, and he's been restored to the Wizengamot. Now that she is no longer able to use any of them to get her 'sadistic control' fix, will she join Voldemort? If the DEs are in Azkaban, he needs someone still on the outside to help him. She might be easily persuaded to join him. Sure you did it right, welcome! Some people obey the law because they believe in it; some do it for fear of punishment. I see Umbridge as the latter. If she does join LV, it would be as an agent-in-place in the Ministry, I'd think. That troubles me too. You'd think that after the disgrace she and her sponsor Fudge just underwent, they couldn't hold office one more day, or be trusted with the restroom combination. What good would she be to LV? If I had to predict anything, it'd be we see her in a very limited way, or maybe not at all. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 22:39:28 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:39:28 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90281 pscospoagofootp (did I get that right?) wrote: [I have a theory that] Dumbledore is an animagus. Most likely a bee or wasp. My proof - At the beginning of Harry Potter's History of Magic O.W.L. there was a wasp in the upper windows. > And also his last name is old English for bumblebee. Jim Ferer responded: > It's not the first time there's been a wasp hanging around. Why > would JKR call attention to it? Dumbledore is Old English for a > wasp, anyway. I'd say the odds DD is an animagus are better than > 50-50. He'd be an unregistered Animagus, though, or Hermione would > know. (maybe she does) Carol: The presence of a bee or wasp isn't *proof* that Dumbledore is an animagus, but in conjunction with his last name (which actually means bumblebee, not wasp), it's an interesting bit of evidence. I personally hope he isn't--we've had too many animagi already and this would just bee [typo!] one animagus too many, especially since it's so close to Rita Skeeter (mosquito)'s disguise. Also, if he's unregistered, that would mean he not only condones rule-breaking, he also practices it. And this would be a wizarding law, not a school rule that he's breaking. However, much as I don't want the theory to be true, I do see one more piece of evidence leading in that direction. Like McGonagall, our registered animagus, Sumbledore was the Transfiguration teacher. In fact, he was *her* Transfiguration teacher, meaning that he must have taught her how to transform into a cat. That being the case, he certainly could have taught himself to turn into a bee or wasp. I prefer to believe the theory that Dumbledore is so powerfully magical that he can make himself invisible at will ("I don't need a cloak to become invisible," Mirror of Erised scene in CoS, quoted from memory), but I do see the evidence to indicate that you may be right. Carol From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Feb 4 22:57:19 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:57:19 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew Power (Was: James Potter Bio Facts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" > I loved what you had to say about Peter and the way that you stated it > all....It was Harry's compassion along with his mother's that set them > apart. It really brought up two questions when reading all you had to say > about Peter: > 1st: Why did V ask Lily to step aside? Maybe Lily (like Harry to Pettigrew) > was compassionate to V and saved his life once. Then V owed Lily. > 2nd: If Harry is soooo compassionate that he can't stand a side and let a > muggle (like Dudley) or a wizard (like Pettigrew) be killed, then how can > he kill V? Maybe thats when Pettigrew steps in. He still owes Harry his > life. ...Pettigrew still has time to change his spots. I see a contradiction here. If V owed his life to Lily, surely simply giving her a warning to step aside is not a method to repay that. Especially since he killed her immediately afterwards. And, if V can behave in this way, why would we assume Peter wouldn't? I've always seen Peter as amoral. He doesn't do horrible things because he takes joy in them, like Bellatrix, or because he has Vmort's worldview of "Kill all the Mudbloods." Peter gravitates to whatever people will make his life easier. He felt that the Order was not going to be able to stop Vmort in the first war, so he traded information for his own skin. Now, his situation doesn't strike me as a particularly happy one. Yes, he's a henchman that Vmort depended on very heavily, but it doesn't seem like Peter's been shown any appreciation for that. He didn't seem like a particularly happy DE in the graveyard scene in GoF. And with Bellatrix back, I'd be willing to bet that Peter has slipped down a rung or two in the DE heirarchy. But, is that enough to make him switch sides again or suddenly get a conscience? I don't think so. If he were to do something heroic, I still think he'd be doing it because he believed that the DEs were going to lose. And, thus he could try to gain some goodwill from Harry's side to try to mitigate against his past sins. Again, it wouldn't be because he was remorseful over his past actions or because he was trying to repay a debt, it would be because he saw a potential way to once again save himself. I, for one, am hoping that Remus rips his heart out. Oh - I just had a thought. I could see Harry making a bargain with Peter that ran along the lines of "I'll do what I can to protect you from harm or see that you get a only a short prison sentence, but only if you clear Sirius' name." Marianne, who'd still vote for heart-ripping-out From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 23:41:06 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 23:41:06 -0000 Subject: Avada Kadavra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90283 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > I know there have been many discussions about if Sirius is really > dead, but then I got to thinking, didn't Nearly Headless Nick say > something about people who die happy don't come back or something > along those lines? Or at least I think someone said that anyway. So > that got me to thinking, how many of the people who died via AK died > happy? That just didn't make any sense to me at all. I know the bit > about being courageous enough to die and such, but to die happy? I > doubt anyone who was AK'd would be happy. Please correct me if I am > wrong. I am definately going to look that bit up again. I think the quote you are thinking of is not Nearly Headless Nick but JKR herself who said in an interview that people who came back as ghosts were not very happy people. I believe she meant in general in their lives, not at the moment of death. If going on to the spirit world required joy at one's demise, there would be many more ghosts, IMO. Sue From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Thu Feb 5 00:05:58 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 00:05:58 -0000 Subject: The Magical World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90284 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" > wrote: > >Perhaps JKR is doing an > > Asimov and keeping large areas of her world uncovered, for herself > or > > other writers to touch upon at a later date, perhaps? > Meri here: I think you make a good point. JKR's world is as new to > Harry as it is to us. He asks all the questions that we want to (or > most of them anyhow) snip >As to having other writers take on parts of the HP world, I > really can't see that happening. JKR letting her literary baby whom > she nursed through young adulthood be touched by other writers, as > well intentioned as they may be? I don't see it. > Meri AmanitaMuscaria writing now : What's fanfic about, then? Surely the whole HP universe has spiralled away from J.K.R.? Whether that's right or wrong, it 's a fact. I myself can't imagine how she's feeling, with her personal world taken by hundreds? thousands? of writers and moved in directions she couldn't have thought of. How weird is that? Or even the scenario that people have written up bits of her imagination into fanfic before she's published them? Sorry. I write fanfic, but I'm also in two minds about it. It's such a peculiar place to be, where a series isn't finished by its original author, but there's so MUCH work around the characters. I'd hate to be Rowling now. I don't think this has happened before, where someone's work has been taken up so widely, while it's in progress. I've followed Sherlock Holmes fanfic, pre-internet and post- ; this is so much more avid, fierce. What do you all think? Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 23:11:20 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 23:11:20 -0000 Subject: The prophesy...sorry for being boring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90285 --- snip> Carol: > The prophecy was delivered before Harry was born. He could not > possibly have had the power to defeat the Dark Lord as a fetus--or > even as a fifteen-month-old baby. And we don't know that the voice > speaking the prophecy, which we agree isn't Trelawney's, is speaking > *in* the present *about* the present. It's using the present tense, > but it's presenting a prophecy and prophecies deal with the future. > (For all we know, the all-knowing voice may be speaking from a > different perspective, in a different time.) Big snip And even now, at sixteen as of Book 5, he > still does not have the power to destroy Voldemort except as partially > developed potential. All he has now is the ability to survive whatever > Voldemort does to him until the time foretold in the prophecy arrives. > > Carol Sue: This brings up an interesting point. Who exactly is Trelawny channeling? It was mentioned in another post that perhaps it is her great grandmother, but I wonder. There have been so many references to time, especially in book 5, and we know that wizards can infact move through time. There has even been all of the speculation about DD "true" identy. It makes me wonder if DD or even someone powerful we have not thought of could be using Trelawny as a vessel for communication. Perhaps even DD knows who this person (intity) is and that is why it is so important to keep Trelawny safe at Hogwarts. I have been reading New Clues to Harry Potter Book 5 (Waters & Mithrandir) and have begun to wonder more about Peeves as well. They point out that he has capabilities that are different than both ghosts and wizards. How does he always seem to know what is going on? Perhaps he will turn out to be one of the biggest plot twists of all. Sue, who is spending WAY too much time thinking about all of this...Book 6 Please! From armadillof at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 19:46:11 2004 From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:46:11 -0000 Subject: Great Uncle Algie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90286 Julie: > I've always wondered about Great Uncle Algie and Gran, > thinking that there was more to them that met the eye. > I've thought they might be on the darker side, not > necessarily DEs. They're good through and through. They support Dumbledore, they raised Neville...you just have to see their opinions through their actions. They're not lead characters. They'll play roles I'm sure, minor as they may or may not be...but they are certainly not dark sided people. AF From blondeangelkiss at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 19:12:54 2004 From: blondeangelkiss at yahoo.com (Bridget) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:12:54 -0000 Subject: Who's really in charge? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90287 Hi all! I've been re-reading the series, paying special attention to the parts where Harry is at the Dursleys', as it seems to me that Harry thinks Vernon is in charge. Vernon is the one who punishes and threatens him etc. But if you read closely, it's fairly obvious that Petunia is the one making the rules, Vernon is just the one enforcing them. The biggest example of this is in OOP, when Vernon wants to kick Harry out, and Petunia won't let him because of the Howler(pgs 40 & 41 US). Vernon could've argued w/ her but doesn't, what she says goes. In fact the last line of the chapter is "YOU HEARD YOUR AUNT, NOW GET TO BED!" (emphasis not mine) He doesn't just say get to bed, he says you heard your aunt. And it's not just in this scene either, in the first chapter of PS/SS he notices all the weird stuff going on and the references about Harry and considers mentioning it to Petunia. He immediately dismisses the idea because he doesn't want to upset her. He is deliberately ignoring his instincts about what's going on to avoid upsetting her. What I want to know is why he lets her be in control. What does she has over him? Is it merely because he loves her or does he know something about her we don't? We know Petunia knows more then she let on to knowing can the same be said of Vernon? Any ideas, other examples, and comments are much appreciated! Bridget From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Wed Feb 4 23:53:57 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 12:53:57 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD an animagus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20040205125023.04858720@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 90288 At 22:39 4/02/2004 +0000, you wrote: >Carol wrote: > >The presence of a bee or wasp isn't *proof* that Dumbledore is an >animagus, but in conjunction with his last name (which actually means >bumblebee, not wasp), it's an interesting bit of evidence. I >personally hope he isn't--we've had too many animagi already and this >would just bee [typo!] one animagus too many, especially since it's so >close to Rita Skeeter (mosquito)'s disguise. Also, if he's >unregistered, that would mean he not only condones rule-breaking, he >also practices it. And this would be a wizarding law, not a school >rule that he's breaking. However, much as I don't want the theory to >be true, I do see one more piece of evidence leading in that >direction. Like McGonagall, our registered animagus, Sumbledore was >the Transfiguration teacher. In fact, he was *her* Transfiguration >teacher, meaning that he must have taught her how to transform into a >cat. That being the case, he certainly could have taught himself to >turn into a bee or wasp. > >I prefer to believe the theory that Dumbledore is so powerfully >magical that he can make himself invisible at will ("I don't need a >cloak to become invisible," Mirror of Erised scene in CoS, quoted from >memory), but I do see the evidence to indicate that you may be right. > >Carol Tanya here. Just one thing to add. Hermione got the animagus list, sure, but it was a list of all the animagus witches and wizards within the past 100 years. As Dumbledore is older than that, He could of easily managed the skill in under 50 years and be off the list in regards to time line. Tanya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 01:01:30 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 01:01:30 -0000 Subject: From Black to White (was Peter...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90289 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > Marianne (kiricat): > > I see a contradiction here. If V owed his life to Lily, surely > simply giving her a warning to step aside is not a method to repay > that. > bboy_mn: I won't go into this in depth because I've had my say on the matter in a previous discussion. Plus, it's one of those discussions that can never be resolved, or at least, not with available information. When Voldemort entered the room in which Harry and Lily were, he had one major objective, one absolute TOP priority, and that was Harry. Lily was inconsequential, so he told her to move aside. Harry was in Voldemort sights and he didn't have the time, interest, or inclination to allow himself to be delayed by the mere presents of some 'silly girl'. When Lily became an annoyance and a delay to his objective, Voldemort disposed of her like yesterday's rubbish; no more, no less. So, 'step aside you silly girl' (paraphrased) wasn't compassion but complete and utter disinterest in Lily. > Marianne: > I've always seen Peter as amoral. ...edited... > > Now, his (Peter's) situation doesn't strike me as a particularly > happy one. ...edited... > > But, is that enough to make him switch sides again or suddenly get a > conscience? I don't think so. ...edited..., it would be because he > saw a potential way to once again save himself. > bboy_mn: Peter is a real mystery in this story, but when you think about it, we have many great mysteries that must/should be resolved before the end. Conclusion, that last book in the series is really going to be exciting when all these mysteries finally converge and are resolved. I can only concluded that Peter is going to play a major role in this final resolution, but what that role will be is difficult to discern. There are so many possibilities. Peter could turn spy for the good side, but his ability to move about freely is extremely limited, and that also limits his ability to communicate with anyone. I'm not thinking of the fact that he is suppose to be dead here, I'm thinking more of the impression I get that Voldemort doesn't let Peter stray very far from his side. I don't think Voldie really trust Worntail. So, while I can see the possibility, I'm not leaning heavily on Peter as a good spy; unless it is a last minute one time act of desperation. I will however agree that while there will be an element of conscience involved in his 'heroic' action, it will mostly be motivated by realizing the Voldemort is doomed to lose, and that will lead Peter to try to cultivate this new realization to his advantage. An alternate is that Peter will intervene in some way to save Harry. Example, Voldemort captures Harry and uses him as leverage against Dumbledore, but Peter sneaks in the dungeon and helps Harry escape. OR... Peter and one other DE are in a position where they have the opportunity to kill Harry, but Peter kills the other DE so Harry can get away, then makes up a story where the DE was somehow killed by the Order or by Harry. OR... in the final scene, Voldemort is about to kill Harry, and Peter thrusts his magic hand into Voldemort's chest and rips out his heart. ...and many many more. The problem with the 'heart ripping out' is that there are so many other possible alternate characters who could just as easily be the real destroyer of Voldemort; Ron, Neville, Dobby, Dumbledore, Tom Riddle as a separate entity from Voldemort, etc.... Marianne: > > Oh - I just had a thought. I could see Harry making a bargain with > Peter that ran along the lines of "I'll do what I can to protect you > from harm or see that you get a only a short prison sentence, but > only if you clear Sirius' name." > > Marianne, bboy_mn: Now this brings up a very interesting question - Will Sirius's name ever be cleared and how? Marianne suggests that in consideration for a lighter sentence, Peter might be willing to testify. I propose other possibilities which don't necessarily rule out Peter playing a part. My personal opinion has always been that Sirius's name will be cleared in a pre-emptive effort to clear the Black family estate. Harry will publish another article/interview in which he explains what happened; Peter wasn't really dead, Peter actually killed the 13 people, etc.... It would seem that they must first clear Sirius's name, then lay the ground work for a favorable resolution of the Estate, the acknowledge that Black is dead, then finally clear the Black Family Estate, hopefully in Harry's favor, if not directly then at least, indirectly. The key being that they can't acknowledge that he is dead until the have cleared his name and have some knowledge that the estate will be resolved in favor of the good guys. Personally, I suspect the existance of a handwritten Will by Sirius, but the validity will be contested as long as Sirius is considered a criminal. Therefore, the first step is to clear his name. Naturally, Draco is the nearest male Heir, so it would be a fight between Harry and Draco over the estate. That could make some juicy conflict between Harry and Draco. One outcome I wouldn't mind seeing is Sirius leaving the bulk of the estate to the Weasleys in Trust, that is, the Weasleys manage the Black Estate on Harry's behalf. In a way, that would make Arthur and Molly Harry's official wizard guardians, not to mention making them rich; at least functionally rich, if not literally rich. Don't really want to start the 'Black Inheritance' thread again, as that's been discussed in detail. I'm more interested in people opinion of IF and HOW Sirius Black's name will be cleared. So MANY mysteries and only two books left, that hardly seems like enough books to resolve them all. Just a thought. bboy_mn From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 5 01:11:36 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 01:11:36 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90290 snip Neville > regularly visits his parents at the ward at St. Mungo's. They share > the room with barking and hairy Agnes who has an as of yet unnamed > son. If she turns out to be Snape's mother, the likelihood of Neville > knowing about it is very high. So maybe the reason Snape is cruel to > Neville is the same reason he is cruel to Harry: Punishing him for > being his father's son (punishing Neville for being so tactless as to > know about the humiliation of his mother). Well, this is my pet > theory at the moment :-) > > Berit > http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html I do love this theory! Is it possible too that every time poor Snape has run into poor Neville in the ward he has slipped him a little note reminding him what will happen to him if he tells anyone who Agnes is? Perhaps his behavior in class is a weekly reminder of what will happen to Neville if he spills the beans. This may in fact be part of the reason Neville has never told anyone about his own parents, he is too afraid he will get questioned about other people there and will have to answer questions which might reveal Snape's secret. BTW, my response to your original post on this matter may have sounded flip...I can be over enthusiastic :). I do however believe that it is possible that Agnes could be suffering from a long standing family curse which also effects Luna Lovegood's family...who knows? Sue From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 5 00:06:15 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 00:06:15 -0000 Subject: Great Uncle Algie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90291 ---snip > I've always wondered about Great Uncle Algie and Gran, thinking that > there was more to them that met the eye. I've thought they might be > on the darker side, not necessarily DEs. However, your idea makes a > whole lot of sense. If Uncle Algie is more in tuned, I really > wonder if Gran is. If she is more aware of the workings of the > Order, why would she so readily dismiss the gum wrappers Nevilld's > mom gives him on his visits? What is your opinion? > > Julie (who always has suspected more from Neville's family) It seems to me that what Neville's Grandmother really wants is to protect Neville at all cost. Is it possible that she has been using memory charms on him all along in the hopes that he will be unable to perform magic and therefore safe from the hands of one Voldemort and his followers? If that is possible, then isn't it also possible that Uncle Algie is trying to thwart his sister (?) and make sure that Neville gets what he needs to become the wizard Algie knows he can be. It would explain Granny's refusal to allow Neville his own wand and the constant jabs at his capabilities, not because she really believes him incapable but because she hopes to keep him from discovering his true potential. Sound like another family we know? (cough, Dursleys, cough ;)) Wondering about Neville constantly, Sue From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 02:24:29 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 02:24:29 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90292 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol: > The presence of a bee or wasp isn't *proof* that Dumbledore is an > animagus, but in conjunction with his last name (which actually means > bumblebee, not wasp), it's an interesting bit of evidence. I > personally hope he isn't--we've had too many animagi already and this > would just bee [typo!] one animagus too many, especially since it's so > close to Rita Skeeter (mosquito)'s disguise. It isn't proof, I agree. Just suggestive. When JKR repeats something, we should notice it. I'll stick with the "better than 50- 50" chance and leave it there. Carol: In fact, he was *her* Transfiguration > teacher, meaning that he must have taught her how to transform into a cat. BTW, I knew perfectly well Dumbledore means "bumblebee," I don't know what I was thinking. I was tired, I guess. Was Dumbeldore in fact McGonagall's teacher? Maybe. I don't know who else it would have been. With McGonagall as Assistant Headmistress, does this mean that Transfiguration teacher is the first among enquals of the staff? I believe it is. From nymphadora1 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 21:05:21 2004 From: nymphadora1 at yahoo.com (nymphadora1) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:05:21 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phanbu" wrote: > Jim Ferer wrote: > > He'd be an unregistered Animagus, though, or Hermione would > > know. (maybe she does) > > Hermione mentioned that she read a list of all animagi registered > within the last century. Perhaps Albus wasn't on that list because > he registered longer ago. I concur with the idea of DD being an unregistered animagus. While listening to the books on tape I noticed something that hadn't registered while reading them for myself. Before DD was made headmaster of Hogwarts, he was the transfiguration teacher. One would think, with his skill at fighting LV that he would have been the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher but not so! If he is an expert at transfiguration, and if he as brilliant as everyone says he is, then I think its a shoo-in that he's an animagus. It would be a simple matter for him to transfigure himself. The question is, what is he? My first thought was Hedwig. What better way to watch over Harry? I'm trying to remember whether there are any scenes where Hedwig and DD appear together. Can someone with a better memory than me enlighten me on my recollections? Nymph From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 4 19:11:49 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:11:49 -0000 Subject: Weasley-Sirius family In-Reply-To: <005801c3eae4$d19bd640$7f420a0a@bre.uop.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90295 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Yeah, I remember that thread, and I like the idea of Slytherin!Molly (not her house in school, but her family). We know very little about Lucius' and Molly's backgrounds; but I think if they were siblings, we'd know that. And how would we resolve the lack of physical resemblance? Half-sibs, maybe? One of them illegitimate? --JDR From frost_indri at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 20:27:46 2004 From: frost_indri at yahoo.com (frost_indri) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 20:27:46 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90296 Kneazy: > Personally, I don't believe that there is real antithapy. Or at least not on Snape's side. The boys probably hate him, but that doesn't worry Ole Sevvy in the least. Oh, sure, he finds Harry and Neville irritating, but so what? After 14 years as a teacher it wouldn't be anything he hasn't come across before. Frost: Except the son of his arch-nemesis and an rather convenient punching bag to exert frustrations on, all in the same class. Kneazy: > IMO it's all part of Snape's invented persona; the DE friendly exterior he shows to the world while secretly beavering away for the Order (and his own ends). You'll note that whenever Snape demands > that Harry be expelled, it is always to DD and in front of Harry. Does he expect his (apparent) wish to be granted? Like hell! It's playacting and recognized as such by DD. The only time Snape has been *really* angry was in the Shrieking Shack and then not at Harry. You'll also note that he rarely if ever gives detention to Harry or Neville, though he could find reasons to do so almost daily. It's invariably "Points from Gryffindor!" Nothing personal in that. >> Frost: Actually, I think there is a very good reason for him not giving Potter or Longbottom detentions, if he really doesn't like them for whatever reason. Why on earth would he want to spend more time with them. Those who give detentions usually have to dish them out as well. If Snape does hate them (and I do think he has some large amount of antipathy towards Harry) then it makes more sense for him to detract points than to have to spend an hour or so with them, making them gut frogs or what not. As for whether or not he really hates them or was really trying to get Potter expelled... I doubt he really expected it to work, but he probably does want to heap as much grief on Potter's head as possible. I doubt he was play acting. However, I do think that he has enough of a control on himself to not push it to far, and to save Potter when he doesn't want to; to act beneficially towards someone he hates. Neville... I just think he finds Neville as incompetent and annoying, and maybe he, like Harry in the beginning of OoP, takes some pleasure in taking out his frustrations on other people. Neville is just an easy target for that. Frost From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 02:44:58 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 02:44:58 -0000 Subject: Did LV try to spare Lily? (was From Black to White (was Peter...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90297 > Marianne (kiricat): > > > > I see a contradiction here. If V owed his life to Lily, surely > > simply giving her a warning to step aside is not a method to repay > > that. > > > > bboy_mn: > > > When Voldemort entered the room in which Harry and Lily were, he had > one major objective, one absolute TOP priority, and that was Harry. > Lily was inconsequential, so he told her to move aside. Harry was in > Voldemort sights and he didn't have the time, interest, or inclination > to allow himself to be delayed by the mere presents of some 'silly girl'. > > When Lily became an annoyance and a delay to his objective, Voldemort > disposed of her like yesterday's rubbish; no more, no less. > > So, 'step aside you silly girl' (paraphrased) wasn't compassion but > complete and utter disinterest in Lily. > Now Neri: PS, Ch. 17 ? The Man with Two Faces: "Quirrell was walking backwards at him, so that Voldemort could still see him. The evil face was now smiling. "How touching ..." it hissed. "I always value bravery ... Yes, boy, your parents were brave ... I killed your father first and he put up a courageous fight ... but your mother needn't have died ... she was trying to protect you ... Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have died in vain." So LV remembered that Lily "needn't have died" ten years after the case. That doesn't sound like utter disinterest or yesterday rubbish. Also, for the plot it is essential that Lily needn't have died. If she had, then it would have been a simple murder, as was James' death, and not a sacrifice. So I think there is definitely something there. Neri From robersondd at comcast.net Thu Feb 5 02:28:36 2004 From: robersondd at comcast.net (Debbie Roberson) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 02:28:36 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy (again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90298 The prophecy states "neither can live while the other survives." This phrase draws my attention more than any other; that, and Ghosts. That is a form of survival, is it not? The battle isn't over until one of them is not just dead - but GONE. Harry has arguably already vanquished the Dark Lord once as an infant (even if he was unaware of doing so and played no part in it of his own accord), but Voldemort survived as.....as what? A spirit? A Ghost? And he rose to power again. Harry can't live his own life because the battle must now continue. If Harry falls in battle, as long as his spirit survives the WW has hope because if he survives, Voldemort cannot Live, he will have to be looking out for the Return of Harry. Is this making any sense or do I sound totally senile? It isn't flowing as well in written form as it is floating around in my brain. Debbie R. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Feb 5 01:10:01 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 01:10:01 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90299 "K" wrote: > Also, in my mind I pictured Neville's parents as > being totally unable to understand anything and > that was not the case. So if Agnes is the mother > of Snape, maybe it's Snape who is slipping something > to Frank and Alice Longbottom during his visits. > For their cure, of course. > > I am interested in dear Agnes, poor thing, and I do > believe we will see her again. Potioncat here: So, K, or is it G? Do you think Snape is helping the Longbottoms or were you being Snape-isly sarcastic? I think Agnes will be related to someone we know at Hogwarts. It will be interesting to see who. I do think Snape is being mean to Neville for a reason. Whether it is due to Agnes or due to "teaching life skills" we'll have to see. Does anyone else have an opinion about the phrase "remedial potions' being used as a treatment on this ward? I remember the first time I saw it thinking it was the wrong use of the word, but Harry also has "remedial potions," so perhaps it is a clue? Potioncat From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 03:19:41 2004 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 03:19:41 -0000 Subject: FILK: Walk Like a Dementor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90300 This one is to Walk Like an Egyptian, here is the midi: http://www.hamienet.com/midi16614.html If it doesn't scan quite right, don't blame me, neither does the original. Walk Like a Dementor All those who guard Azkaban Who on the dark cold North Sea reside Don't jump or run (oh whey oh) They silently along just seem to glide. With rattling breath the undead rise Suck happiness from ev'ry room. A cruel twist- (oh whey oh) A loving kiss now means lasting doom. Quick trial and You're on the island Ay oh whey oh, ay oh whey oh Walk like A Dementor (short music break 4 bars) Ministry is in denial A magical top bureaucrat Fudge thinks he knows (oh whey oh) No brains inside lime green bowler hat Voldemort just sends out a call One touch upon dark secret mark When DE's come (oh whey oh) Walk like Dementors in the dark All the DE's still inside go Ay oh whey oh, ay oh whey oh Walk like A Dementor (long music break 12 bars) Lift up your hands, drop your hood With rotting skin and that putrid breath Suck out the joy (oh whey oh) And leave a fate so much worse than death Umbrage to impress her mentor Sent evil things out to represent Patronus stag (oh whey oh) It charged like a Dementor That batty Arabella Figg She went outside to feed the cat Though squib she be (oh whey oh) Dementors can see in spite of that Gave testimony, did Missus Figg Dementors running, so very big! They ran in? What did you say? I think I meant gliding, yes I did! All the Wizengamot saying Ay oh whey oh, ay oh whey oh Walk like A Dementor ~ Constance Vigilance, who's had enough Bangles for a while now. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Feb 4 21:20:05 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:20:05 -0000 Subject: Who was involved in James and Lily's death? was Re: Were Dumbledore & Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90301 Irina: >> No, I don't think it was overheard after the fact, I don't think it was overheard at all. I think that someone who LV trusted, but who was really playing for the other side (probably Snape) reported only the first part to LV on purpose - to make sure that LV took the steps necessary for his own downfall, but without knowing their significance.<< In that case, Dumbledore lied to Harry. "My -- our-- one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and was thrown from the building." This is a flat statement, very different from the equivocations and evasions Dumbledore has employed when skating on the thin ice of truth...and why bother with verbal acrobatics if he's willing to lie outright anyway? Dumbledore doesn't seem to know in PS/SS exactly how Harry survived. It could be that he was acting on a guess rather than a certainty when he decided that the blood of Harry's mother would have a special potency. Harry himself at the end of first year told Dumbledore that his mother had died to save him, and it may have been only then that Dumbledore learned for certain that his guess was right. But it is canon that Lily was gifted in Charms. Possibly she had an interest in ancient magic, and discussed with Dumbledore, or with Nicholas Flammel, the making of a charm of protection on Harry which would be activated if she gave her life for him. As for how Dumbledore knew so quickly that the Potters had been attacked, perhaps Godric's Hollow was being monitored by magical portrait (Bowman Wright?) or by Floo powder. This could explain Lupin's "You heard James?" comment The delay between the time of the prophecy and the birth of Harry makes it possible that James and Lily had not yet defied Voldemort three times when it was given and this opens some interesting possibilities. Perhaps Voldemort didn't think Lily had defied him the requisite number of times when he confronted her, and this is why he wanted her to stand aside. It is also possible that the person who turned the Prophecy over to Voldemort thought it would apply to the Longbottoms and *not* James and Lily. Perhaps the eavesdropper thought he was *shielding* James and Lily, not betraying them. Ah, irony! But who was it? It would be interesting if all three of James's best friends had betrayed him in some way. Elkins posted once that if so, this was the fateful consequence of the habits of secrecy and deception that they had developed to hide their lawlessness in their Marauder days. And, I would add, the same sort of denial that Dumbledore engaged in when he decided to keep the truth from Harry. When Dumbledore says, "What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered..." he is confessing that he knew he wasn't living up to his principles. But the werewolf adventures could not have happened had James and his friends not put Lupin's welfare and happiness above the lives of others. What if Lupin felt that he needed to repay this? What if he was the one who overheard part of the Prophecy, and turned it over to Voldemort believing it would protect James and Lily, not seal their fate? James and Lily's luck in eluding the Dark Lord doesn't seem to have been common knowledge even in the Order. In PS/SS, Hagrid says that Voldemort killed everyone who stood up to him but.. "Suppose the myst'ry is why You-Know-Who never tried to get [James and Lily] on his side before." And yet Dumbledore tells us in OOP that by the time of Harry's birth they had narrowly escaped Voldemort three times! If the eavesdropper was Lupin, that would explain both the resemblance of his boggart to a prophecy orb, his representation of it as the full moon, and his reluctance to have anything to do with Sybil Trelawney. . Pippin From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 5 03:26:34 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 03:26:34 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy (again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90302 Debbie R. Wrote: > The prophecy states "neither can live while the other survives." > This phrase draws my attention more than any other; that, and > Ghosts. That is a form of survival, is it not? The battle isn't > over until one of them is not just dead - but GONE. This is a very interesting point. Is this perhaps the reason that Sirius had to die in the way that he did? Perhaps the only way to truly "vanquish the Dark Lord" is to send him through the vail to the other side, body, wand, and all. I realize this would eliminate the possibility that Sirius could ever return either but it seems that his death could have more than one lesson. If this, in fact, is the only way to eliminate Voldemort then the trip to the MOM, Sirius's death would not have been in vain. Sue From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 5 03:44:54 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 03:44:54 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90303 Snip > Does anyone else have an opinion about the phrase "remedial potions' > being used as a treatment on this ward? I remember the first time I > saw it thinking it was the wrong use of the word, but Harry also > has "remedial potions," so perhaps it is a clue? > > Potioncat As a matter of fact I have an opinion on the matter :)! I stated on an earlier post that if Snape is related to Agnes and he, infact, is trying to cure her, perhaps he is the person who invented the Wolfsbane potion. It would have been an accident of course, but imagine the angst Snape would have felt about helping Lupin. In my original post on the subject I suggested that perhaps Agnes is suffering from a family curse that only effects the women and there are others in his family who have suffered the same destiny. Perhaps Snape is related to the Lovegoods and Luna's mother, who liked to experiment with her spells, was desperately trying to save herself from the same fate. I also believe that Neville is going to do something rather fabulous with his knowledge of herbology, perhaps inventing the very potion that saves Snapes mother from her terrible curse. Far fetched, of course, but I would love for Snape to have to eat some form of crow for all of the torment he has heaped on Neville. Sue, who promises not to repeat herself again :)! From artcase at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 04:18:56 2004 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 04:18:56 -0000 Subject: snakes, rats, yew and holly...random thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90304 I am in the process of re-reading the series from the beginning (it gets so frustrating waiting for another book...) And came across the fact that Harry's wand isn't a "twin" of LV's, but actually 2 1/2 inches shorter, and made of holly not yew. This begs me to wonder the difference in the properties of the woods the wands are made from. Willow is good for charms (Lily's wand was willow) and James' wand was good for transfiguration. (no wonder he became an animagus). Then, I was reading posts about Peter Pettigrew's contribution (or suspected contribution) to the resolution of this tale. That ran my mind on another tangent. Peter is a rat, the food of snakes. Both Harry and LV have the ability to talk to snakes. Both of these images were introduced at the very beginning of the series. In conclusion, rats vs. snakes ? yew and holly, which is better? (remember the holly was the ONLY plant that could kill Balder in Norse mythology, and YEW was the divine tree of the druids. The Yggdrasil(sp?) (tree of life) is supposed to be a yew tree, and the french celts worshipped yew as the tree most blessed by the gods. Like the subject says, random thoughts Art. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Feb 5 04:48:59 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 04:48:59 -0000 Subject: FILK: Harry Potter, Buddy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90305 My H2$/HP musical is now complete! http://home.att.net/~coriolan/musical/howto.htm Here's the final song: Harry Potter, Buddy (OOP, Chap. 23) To the tune of Cinderella, Darling from Frank Loesser's How to Succeed in Business Without Even Trying THE SCENE: HARRY, convinced that he is possessed by LORD VOLDEMORT, decides to leave the Wizarding World for good, lest he betray his friends to the Dark Lord. He is about to leave 12 Grimmauld Place in the guise of the archetypal runaway, with all his worldly possessions wrapped in a knapsack tied around the end of his Firebolt. Just as he is about to open the door, and abandon everything he has ever cherished, he is interrupted by a sardonic voice. PHINEAS (spoken): I have a message for you from Albus Dumbledore. HARRY (not turning from the door): What is it? PHINEAS (spoken): Actually, it's a singing telegram. (Enter SIRIUS, RON, GINNY & HERMIONE. Enter from the opposite direction, a CHORUS OF GRIMMAULD BOGGARTS. Throughout the song, HARRY faces toward the door, and away from his friends, refusing to face them or to speak till the end) SIRIUS (music): You've never faced a crisis that has ever seemed to be Any harrier. CHORUS OF BOGGARTS (in the guise of Dementors): Horror to ya! RON: For evil visions seem to prove Somehow you've crossed the serpent/human barrier. CHORUS OF BOGGARTS: Horror to ya! GINNY: Why treat yourself like you are a Dark Lord carrier? Why don't you ask a girl who once read from Tommy's diary, By You-Know-Who possessed once. CHORUS OF BOGGARTS: Horror to ya! HERMIONE: Why does our Harry Potter want to act like a dunce? ALL (except HERMIONE and HARRY): Harry, please don't be a dunce! HERMIONE: Don't you realize, you're the ultimate Alpha male, For Bildungsroman? For the readers and our sake Please, Harry, c'mom! ALL (except HARRY): C'mon! C'mon! C'mon! Don't... Don't... Don't... Harry Potter, buddy Don't act like a dunce. SIRIUS: Don't drop from the story. You're the legend, the filk star Even if your dreams are gory. ALL (except HARRY): We rely on you, Harry, Please do not pull stupid stunts Camaraderie with Potter, we! Don't, Harry Potter, Don't act like a dunce. RON: Oh, we have lived it with you, Each volume and each page, >From the Fiery Goblet SIRIUS: To the Azkaban Pris'ner GINNY: Secret Riddle Chamber HERMIONE: Philosophical Stone It's been Harry P. all the way (Enter KREACHER, rudely interrupting the proceedings) SIRIUS (angry): No! Old rouge elf! SIRIUS & ENSEMBLE (except HERMIONE): Old rouge elf, go away! (As the ENSEMBLE continues to plead with HARRY, KREACHER withdraws and contemplates how to put to use his Master's command to a literal and useful purpose) KREACHER ? aside - (and ENSEMBLE) Oh, let me now be heinous (Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease) My pretext may be spurious (Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease) No more can Black detain us (Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease) I'm off to meet my Precious (Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease) Tis you, my Narcissa, who'll refresh us (Oooooooooooooooooooooo) So it is you I'm off to see (Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm) And Lucius. ALL (except HARRY): Stone us! But don't, don't... Don't...Harry Potter, buddy Don't act like a dunce. SIRIUS: No denial of your enchantment! You're enabled, And nimble No more Boy-Who-Lived recant-ment! ALL (except HARRY): We rely on you, buddy And we're pained by your affronts Don't wind up like poor ol' Wormytail Don't, Harry Potter, don't Don't... Don't... Don't, Harry Potter, don't, Don't... Don't... Don't, Harry Potter, don't! Don't act like a dunce. HARRY (spoken, turning to face everyone): All right! I'll join you one more time. CHORUS OF BOGGARTS (in the guise of Dementors): Horrors to us! (One by one, the CHORUS OF BOGGARTS explode as HARRY, smiling broadly in spite of himself, embraces his friends and allies. In the excitement and joy, no one observes KREACHER as he Apparates to the Malfoy Mansion) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated today with 46 new filks) From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Feb 5 04:50:50 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 04:50:50 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Love of a Hearty Goat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90306 The Love of a Hearty Goat This came about as a sort of a side effect of my HP/H2$ musical. To the tune of The Love From a Heart of Gold from Frank Loesser's How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying (The original song parodies the style of a Victorian-era parlor ballad) The SCENE: ABERFORTH DUMBLEDORE, that ever-copious fountain of melody, again holds forth on the object of his affections. ABERFORTH In pasture dwells my passion Over which I must deep emote. What care I if The Daily Prophet Keeps a-bashin' With their coarse Anecdotes? She is my source for bezoars That all-purposing antidote There is nothing in life that could possibly be more Than the love of a hearty goat - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated today!) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 07:33:53 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 07:33:53 -0000 Subject: Did LV try to spare Lily? (was From Black to White (was Peter...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90307 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > Marianne (kiricat): > > > > > > I see a contradiction here. If V owed his life to Lily, surely > > > simply giving her a warning to step aside ... > > > > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > > > > When Voldemort entered the room in which Harry and Lily were, he > > had one major objective, one absolute TOP priority, and that was > > Harry. Lily was inconsequential, so he told her to move aside. > > > > Now Neri: > > PS, Ch. 17 ? The Man with Two Faces: > > "Quirrell was walking backwards at him, so that Voldemort could still > see him. The evil face was now smiling. > "How touching ..." it hissed. "I always value bravery ... Yes, boy, > your parents were brave ... I killed your father first and he put up > a courageous fight ... but your mother needn't have died ... she was > trying to protect you ... Now give me the Stone, unless you want her > to have died in vain." > > So LV remembered that Lily "needn't have died" ten years after the > case. That doesn't sound like utter disinterest or yesterday rubbish. > Also, for the plot it is essential that Lily needn't have died. If > she had, then it would have been a simple murder, as was James' > death, and not a sacrifice. So I think there is definitely something > there. > > Neri bboy_mn: Sorry, but your quote and statements confirm what I said (at least to me) rather than deny my conclusion. First, and foremost, remember when Voldemort/Quirrel said this, he had ulterior motives. First he tried to convince Harry that he could bring his parents back to life if Harry would only join Voldemort. When that didn't work, he tried to prey on fear, intimidation, and emotions. Lily was inconsequential and insignificant to Voldemort which is exactly why she didn't have to die. As long as Voldemort got what he wanted, which was Harry dead, he could care less if Lily lived or died. So, he didn't kill her because she was part of his Grand Plot, she simply interferred with his objective, and Voldemort casually killed her rather than allow her to delay him from his goal. That's from Voldemort's perspective. But he is someone who really doesn't understand the world and people around him very well; he way to abosorbed in himself. That's what will eventually lead to his downfall again, and that is at the core of all the classic 'Evil Overlord' mistakes that he makes in every book. He is supreme in his arrogance. Logically, what parent would casually step aside while the most evil wizard in a century killed their child? I'm pretty sure, that those parents would be in an extreme minority. That fact that Voldemort considered Lily of no concern or consequence, doesn't change the fact that Lily's attempt to save her son was EXTREMELY significant and ultimately the very thing that destroyed Voldemort and saved Harry. Voldemort's desires and motivations are completely independant of Lily's motivations and actions. I think it makes much more sense to assume that Lily was of little or no consequence than to fantasize that somebody or other was in love with somebody else (Lupin/Lily, Snape/Lily, Voldemort/Lily, Wormtail/Lily, Trevor_the_Toad/Lily, etc...), or somebody owned somebody something (life debt), or that some ulikely character is related to some other unlikely character (Harry/Lily/James's uncle/cousin/father/grandfather is Snape/Slytherin/Riddle/Voldemort/Dumbledore/Griffindor/etc...). Although, I readily confess that my version is far less fun to think about than some of the other proposed versions. Then again, it's just a thought. bboy_mn From gartzen at e-mail.dk Wed Feb 4 18:09:32 2004 From: gartzen at e-mail.dk (gartzen88) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 18:09:32 -0000 Subject: Ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90309 > > Rob wrote: > > > What purpose do ghosts serve at Hogwarts? Each house has > > > one. Peeves seems to be just a troublemaker. So i keep > > > wondering why are they there. > > > > GartZen > > In PoA they help searching the castle for Black... Maybe they > > help in tight situations or give advice. They could be some kind > > of "pets", and make Hogwarts a more cosy place ;) > Julie: > I think the Bloody Baron would take offense to being referred to as > a "pet." I think the ghosts play and will play a larger role in > the septology and that their presence does have meaning. Could they be > part of what is protecting Hogwarts? > What I meant was that they give a atmosphere. Then the first thing to my mind was a pet-atmosphere... Not meant like that they ARE pets of Hogwart ;).... So I didn't mean that the students had to "walk their pet-ghost" ;);).... the reason I ain't so good at explaining msyelf... is that my English isn't THAT great... As you may have discovered ;) - GartZen From naama_gat at hotmail.com Thu Feb 5 11:58:09 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:58:09 -0000 Subject: Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90310 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" wrote: > > Fred again > Naama,if you would have read all of what I said, you would have > seen "And until Harry DOES have the *power/will/ability* to kill LV, > LV will not be able to kill Harry." I understand that Harry alway > had the "power", but he did not have the ability to use it as a baby. > So .. I'm not sure then that I understand your original argument. What is logically impossible in "either must die at the hand of the other" and Voldemort having successfuly killed baby Harry? (It's not a rhetorical question, I really want to understand.) ===================================================================== > > > Naama wrote > On what do you base the assertion that it wasn't Lily's sacrifice > that saved Harry? > > > Fred again > Just like so many more in here, no one REALLY knows what kept Harry > from dying, we all just have out theories about what helped save him. > Whith my theory, I AM still including Lily's scrafice, possibly a > charm protection and giving a reason for Dumbledore's "gleam" in GoF. > And I think, of course, it is only my opion, that my theory is as > sound as any other one that has been brought up to date. > Well, we're pretty much told outright that it *was* Lily's sacrifice that saved Harry. It is said by Dumbledore in PS and again in more detail in OoP. So, again, why do you assert that "no one REALLY knows.." etc.? And, Fred, I'm not trying to be aggressive - I'm truly interested, OK? Naama From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Feb 5 12:26:50 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 12:26:50 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "frost_indri" wrote: > Except the son of his arch-nemesis and an rather convenient > punching bag to exert frustrations on, all in the same class. Kneasy: Arch-nemesis? What arch-nemesis? James was no nemesis to Snape, let alone arch. Snape is alive and James isn't. Guess who thinks he's a winner. IMO too many posters are under-estimating Snape and just looking at him from Harry's point of view. That's too simplistic; he is by far the most complex character in the series and to dismiss him as a mindless bully is a mistake. We know that he is playing a double or even a triple game. He's an important member of the Order, possibly the only one able to get information directly from the DEs, meanwhile maintaining friendly contacts with his old chums without raising their suspicions. DD trusts him absolutely and Harry does not have a clue what Snape is really up to. Harry is little more than an ignorant child commenting on a very dangerous game being played by experienced adults and thinking he knows best. Harry expresses frustration because no-one tells him what's going on. Why the hell should they? I certainly wouldn't trust Harry with vital information that he didn't *need* to know. He's too volatile; he'd do or say something that could ruin everything, just as he did at the end of OoP, where you'll remember he is so certain that he is right he takes the risk of exposing Snape as a member of the Order. Meanwhile Snape keeps on walking his tightrope; one false step and he could, quite literally, be dead. He taunts Harry and Neville in class yet he's the one who's around to surreptitiously save Harry's neck. Do you really think this is by chance? I certainly don't. He's under orders from DD to keep an eye on Harry *and* to maintain his front. Snape is cold, calculating and intelligent. He probably did hate James and with good reason it seems, but he'd never mistake Harry for James. And he doesn't give a damn what Harry thinks of him, he's got more important things to worry about. For a long time I've banged on about the role of our Sevvy, starting with 69509 Snape - a very good hater, and then through numerous other threads. I may be wrong about his motivation, but I'm dead certain about his role. > > Frost: > Actually, I think there is a very good reason for him not giving > Potter or Longbottom detentions, if he really doesn't like them for > whatever reason. Why on earth would he want to spend more time with > them. Those who give detentions usually have to dish them out as > well. Kneasy: Not so. He could easily hand them over to Filch. It's happened before. Umbridge seems to be the only teacher that insisted that detentions were under her direct supervision and she had an ulterior motive. Look at it from Snape's point of view. How does Harry behave towards him? And why does Harry act that way? Pure adolescent pique. Harry wants what Harry wants and any curb or restriction is a personal affront. He knows that Snape is important to the Order, he knows that DD trusts Snape, he knows Snape has saved his neck, potentially on more than one occasion, yet he persists in seeing everything in terms of his own feelings. Snape is wrong, Snape is bad. It's about time he grew up. Kneasy From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Thu Feb 5 07:47:13 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 07:47:13 -0000 Subject: In Essence Divided Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90312 I have been rereading OotP and I found something quite interesting as I read the part about Harry's vision of Arthur Weasley being attacked. Dumbledore brought out an instrument which made a smoky snake shape of some sort, and he found that obvious, and he asks, "but in essence divided?" Now I haven't reached the end of OotP and I did not pay much attention to this bit before, but I am highly interested in what this means. First off, I agree with many of the members about there being enough animagi, but, how could Harry be in the snake if he is reading Voldie's mind? Perhaps Voldie was Imperiusing Nagini or something I don't know. Also, the snake that bit Arthur had venom that would not let his wounds heal. I lost my "Fantastic Beasts..." book, so if anyone knows of a snake like beast that has this curious venom, please let me know. I also had a thought, yes its as farfetched as my others, but I remembered some of the recent posts about Voldie being possessed by some sort of being, and as I read the part about the snake, it got me to thinking that there might be a snakelike being that was able to possess humans. I know that it is probably a long shot, but as I think about it more and more, there are things in the series that seems to make sense of this theory, as well as one old wives tale if you will. 1. Snakes have been thought to have a hypnotic stare in many tales of old. 2. Snakes in this series are quite important. 3. The death eaters' symbol is a skull with a snake coming out of the mouth, perhaps meaning that the snake is "in there head ( this is not literal, I mean perhaps controlling them or the spirit of one is residing in the head etc) 4. Parseltongue is thought of as an evil ability. 5. Voldie has Nagini at his side constantly, and she was milked to help Voldie thrive. 6. The Basilisk was the beast in the chamber of secrets. etc... So if this is anywhere near true, then perhaps Voldie could be exorcised in a way and that might actually kill Voldie without having to murder Tom Riddle. Any thoughts, help, or constructive criticism would be much appreciated :) Also, the part about "in essence divided, well that part makes me think that the possession of this snake like being of Voldie was divided when he tried to AK Harry and Harry inherited that part as well, though it probably was not awakened until Voldie was reborn. Harry is a bit meaner and angrier in Book 5, though considering his age and what he has been through, that's not saying much. I just think that perhaps he has a stronger moral fiber than Voldie and won't give in to that type of thing, plus he was not directly possessed by the being in question. Perhaps Voldie was not forcefully possessed by this being but maybe gave into it as he thought that this could mean immortality. Sawsan, who is exhausted but had to write all of her thoughts down before she forgot them by morning. From pulpficlet at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 19:18:06 2004 From: pulpficlet at yahoo.com (pulpficlet) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:18:06 -0000 Subject: Great Uncle Algie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90313 Aditya wrote: > If Mimbulus Mimbletonia is truly the courage plant, as it is being > made out to be, then I wonder at the timing of the present of it > to Neville by his uncle Algie. Did Algie forsee that Neville would > be needing a boost in his courage quotient and so went to great > lengths to procure this rare plant? That means, of course, that the > Longbottoms are more tuned in with the happenings than has been > previously suggested. Me (Paula): I think something important is coming with all of the Longbottoms. There is too much there for Neville just to be a bumbling boy and a prophesy red herring. It is just too convenient that Neville has his dad's old wand, that he is given the most useless of pets when he starts off at Hogwarts. Now he gets yet another seemingly useless gift -- a plant, and we know from his early years at Hogwarts that he is talented at one thing, herbology. If Mimbulus Mimbletonia is a courage plant however, why would Uncle Algie think Neville needs one? He won an award for bravery in his first year at Hogwarts. > If Uncle Algie is more in tuned, I really > wonder if Gran is. If she is more aware of the workings of the > Order, why would she so readily dismiss the gum wrappers Nevilld's > mom gives him on his visits? What is your opinion? Me (Paula): I really do think the only point of that scene was to show that Neville has had a tough life with his tough grandmother. Just like Harry, if you think about it. Paula From naama_gat at hotmail.com Thu Feb 5 13:55:45 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 13:55:45 -0000 Subject: Did LV try to spare Lily? (was From Black to White (was Peter...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90314 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > bboy_mn: > > > > > > > > > > > When Voldemort entered the room in which Harry and Lily were, he > > > had one major objective, one absolute TOP priority, and that was > > > Harry. Lily was inconsequential, so he told her to move aside. > > > > > > > and: > Lily was inconsequential and insignificant to Voldemort which is > exactly why she didn't have to die. As long as Voldemort got what he > wanted, which was Harry dead, he could care less if Lily lived or >died. > > So, he didn't kill her because she was part of his Grand Plot, she > simply interferred with his objective, and Voldemort casually killed > her rather than allow her to delay him from his goal. But all this applies just as well to James. If, as you say (and I agree with you), that Voldemort had one overriding objective and that was to kill Harry, then James is just as inconsequential to him as Lily at that point. But still, he differentiates between them - it is *Lily* who needn't have died. Why only she and not James? I seem to detect an underlying assumption here, which is that Voldemort would have seen James as a threat and therefore James' death was necessary to him. Lily, on the other hand, he wouldn't see as a threat, and therefore didn't have to kill her. I think this reflects a kind of male chauvinism which doesn't seem to apply to the WW, or even to Voldemort himself. At least, we don't have any evidence for it. Witches are just as powerful as men in the WW, and this seems to be taken for granted in the Potterverse. Another point I'd like to make is that Voldemort and his followers take pleasure in killing and torturing for its own sake. I would have thought that for Voldemort the question wouldn't be "why kill" but "why not kill". So, if he didn't just automatically, unthinkingly, kill her, there must have been some reason for it. For some reason Lily was someone he preferred *not* to kill. > > That's from Voldemort's perspective. But he is someone who really > doesn't understand the world and people around him very well; he way > to abosorbed in himself. All this is beside the main point, but I have to say that I don't agree with this assessment at all. He completely understands his DEs, for instance. He understands exactly what makes each and every one of them tick, as we see at the graveyard scene. He also understands what makes his enemies tick. It was his understanding of Harry's psyche that brought about Sirius' death. There is just one thing that is impenetrable to him (according to Dumbledore), and that is love. Not in the sense that he can't take advantage of it (he manipulated Harry through his love to Sirius), but in the sense that he underestimates it's power. Other than that, he is as insightful into the working of people's mind and soul as Dumbledore. Naama From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 5 14:10:47 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:10:47 -0000 Subject: The Dark Mark (was: In Essence Divided) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90315 Sawsan wrote: << 3. The death eaters' symbol is a skull with a snake coming out of the mouth, perhaps meaning that the snake is "in there head ( this is not literal, I mean perhaps controlling them or the spirit of one is residing in the head etc)>> Sigune here: I am interested in this issue (also in the other points you raised, Sawsan, but I can come up with nothing useful there). I have launched this thought on another thread before but I got no response; so: do other posters think that the Dark Mark is more than just Voldie's version of a beeper? What I mean to propose here is that it might have properties similar to those of Harry's scar. It struck me that Snape, for one, seems to be more sensitive to the mentioning of Voldemort's name than others who don't have the Mark (even more than McGonagall, who tends to wince so violently that it upsets her glasses, OoP). The mention of the name of the wizard who put the Mark on the DE's arm might sort of activate it in a way. In any case it drives Snape to positive fury and of course he clutches his left arm. Is it possible that LV can use the Mark as an extra asset to manipulate his followers, and even sense some of their feelings, like Harry can feel LV's violent emotions of pleasure/grief? That, through the Dark Mark, he is a constant presence in their lives, in another way then just a visible reminder? The Mark is set by magic probably not dissimilar from the one that set Harry's scar, I should fancy. Thoughts, anyone? Yours severely, Sigune From beelissa at nycap.rr.com Thu Feb 5 14:37:16 2004 From: beelissa at nycap.rr.com (Melissa Worcester) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:37:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD an animagus References: <5.0.2.1.2.20040205125023.04858720@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <004e01c3ebf5$8d312930$5ad94142@CPQ21816182602> No: HPFGUIDX 90316 >Carol wrote: > >The presence of a bee or wasp isn't *proof* that Dumbledore is an >animagus, but in conjunction with his last name (which actually means >bumblebee, not wasp), it's an interesting bit of evidence. I just wanted to point out a couple of things. First, when Harry is waiting to take the final exam for Divination in PoA (during which Trelawney gives the prophecy about the Dark Lord's servant), a fly is buzzing in a window nearby. But, in both this and the scene during the History of Magic exam in OoP, no one sees the bee/wasp/fly. To my way of thinking, an insect buzzing way up high in a window sounds pretty much the same, whether it is a bee or a wasp or even a fly. So, maybe it was a bumblebee in both cases. Or maybe Dumbledore said to himself, "What sort of insect shall I transform into? Not a bumblebee, that's too obvious, considering the meaning of my surname. How about a wasp?" Another alternative that I have come up with is that it is an animagus but it's not Dumbledore at all. Rita Skeeter was able to gain access to Hogwarts when she wasn't allowed there in her human form. Maybe someone else is doing the same. Is it a Death Eater? Is it someone on Dumbledore's side, who is watching Harry at Dumbledore's request? "I have watched you more closely than you can have imagined," says Dumbledore. Does this mean he watched in person, or that someone watched him for Dumbledore? Anyway, I kind of think these are put there for a purpose. They may be just a red herring of some sort, but I don't think they're there by accident. Hmm... do toads eat flies? How about bees and wasps? Totally unrelated topic: is anyone else getting some messages from this list with [spam] replacing [HPforGrownups] in the subject and a notation that Yahoo groups thinks the mail is spam? I hope someone can do something about that. The messages don't seem to be spam, and it's messing up the automatic message filing system I've got set up. Thanks! Melissa, briefly coming out of lurkdome From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 14:42:46 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:42:46 -0000 Subject: Great Uncle Algie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90317 > It seems to me that what Neville's Grandmother really wants is to > protect Neville at all cost. That makes a lot of sense. I know that if something happened to me, my mom would do everything in her power to protect my son, especially if it were likely that he would be a tartget. Based on your speculation, I have a couple of questions: (1) Do you think Gran and Uncle Algie know about the prophecy? (2) If so, how? (3) What do you think about the gum wrappers and Gran's dismissal of them? Julie -- who really really really wants to know what is up with the gum wrappers! From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 14:52:14 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:52:14 -0000 Subject: Ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90318 my mind was a pet-atmosphere... Not meant like that they ARE pets of > Hogwart ;).... So I didn't mean that the students had to "walk their > pet-ghost" ;);).... > the reason I ain't so good at explaining msyelf... is that my English > isn't THAT great... As you may have discovered ;) > > > - GartZen I understand. I had the same experience when I lived in France. You are right...they do give Hogwarts an atmosphere. I'm just wondering if their presence is MORE than atmosphere. About protection, a couple of thoughts: 1) They could be part of a "stealth network" so to speak, functioning somewhat like DD's portraits. I don't think leave Hogwarts, but I do not have canon evidence for that. 2) Could their presence be part of a larger spell protecting Hogwarts, or could these particular ghosts be at Hogwarts for THEIR protection? Julie From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Feb 5 15:19:30 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 15:19:30 -0000 Subject: Who was involved in James and Lily's death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90319 Pippin wrote: > Perhaps Voldemort didn't think Lily had defied him the requisite > number of times when he confronted her, and this is why he > wanted her to stand aside. I'm not sure I understand this. Was he thinking 'I'm not sure if she's had two strikes or three, so I'd better attack Harry in case it's three, but if it's only two, then attacking her might help fulfil the prophecy by converting her to a triple (if I fail), and thus Harry into my nemesis, so I'd better not do that'? I know he has a propensity for plans so complex that they are virtually guaranteed to fail, but I sense a biscuit is being taken here. All theories which hinge on his hesitation in attacking Lily seem to me to founder on the split-second length of that hesitation, which suggests economy of effort as the motive: "Stand aside, you silly girl." "Never!" "I said, stand- oh, I can't be doing with this, Avada Kedavra, now for the child." I rather like the idea of Voldemort gold-plating his Herod-like credentials for evil-doing by deliberately going about ineptly attacking parents whose children were born in late July, so as to have an excuse to attack the children, though. David From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 15:26:17 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 15:26:17 -0000 Subject: Asking Lily to step aside (Was: Pettigrew Power) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90320 Hitomi asked: Why did V ask Lily to step aside? Maybe Lily (like Harry to Pettigrew) was compassionate to V and saved his life once. Then V owed Lily. Hi, Hitomi. Apologies for narrowing in on a small part of your interesting post. I think the answer is contained in LV's words to Lily, "Step aside, you silly girl!" Clearly he doesn't perceive her as a threat, maybe because she's very young (about twenty-one: note "girl," not "woman") and Muggle-born--both possible grounds for contempt in LV's view in anyone who isn't "the one" (killing off Muggle-borns has ceased to matter to him now, as Tom Riddle tells us in CoS)--and she's female to boot. (Given the small number of female DEs, it's safe to assume that LV is sexist.) IOW, he sees her as virtually powerless, despite the three defeats mentioned in the prophecy, which he probably credits to James. In any case, James presumably put up a fight so LV had to kill him, but Lily is apparently just standing between LV and Harry, not a threat but an obstacle blocking his way. He doesn't understand that any mother, whether she's human or a grizzly bear, will protect her child from harm (whether or not he's protected by a charm involving her death). He somehow expects her to move over and let him kill the baby. He could have just stunned her or elbowed her aside, but she insisted hysterically that he kill her instead and he apparently saw that as the only means of accomplishing his goal. (I think she had to die for the protective charm to work, but that's beside the point here.) I imagine LV would have killed her as frosting on the cake after the main job was done, though maybe he would have enjoyed watching her suffer first. (If Bella was with him, I'm sure he'd have left Lily to her.) But, to repeat, I think he didn't kill her at first because he perceived her as an obstacle, not a threat. He didn't care whether she was dead or alive at that point, as long as she was out of his way. It was Harry's death that mattered. Carol From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Thu Feb 5 15:53:39 2004 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 15:53:39 -0000 Subject: Ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90321 Julie wrote: > You are right...they do give Hogwarts an atmosphere. I'm just > wondering if their presence is MORE than atmosphere. About > protection, a couple of thoughts: > 1) They could be part of a "stealth network" so to speak, > functioning somewhat like DD's portraits. I don't think leave > Hogwarts, but I do not have canon evidence for that. > 2) Could their presence be part of a larger spell protecting > Hogwarts, or could these particular ghosts be at Hogwarts for THEIR > protection? Now me: I wonder how Nearly Headless Nick's desire to join the Headless Hunt plays into this? And his death day party? Nick's desire to join the Headless Hunt implies he can leave the castle, and that he at least occasionally wants to. Remember too Moaning Myrtle's haunting of the student who teased her. The student (Olive?) got the MoM to stop Myrtle, and Myrtle came back to live in her toilet. One question: did she choose to come back, or was she ordered? (I don't have my book so I can't check). It will be interesting to see if the other ghosts (like Ravenclaw's) come into play in the story. -kg From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 16:46:19 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 16:46:19 -0000 Subject: Who's really in charge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90322 "Bridget" wrote: > Hi all! I've been re-reading the series, paying special attention to > the parts where Harry is at the Dursleys', as it seems to me that > Harry thinks Vernon is in charge. Vernon is the one who punishes and > threatens him etc. But if you read closely, it's fairly obvious that > Petunia is the one making the rules, Vernon is just the one > enforcing them. He is deliberately > ignoring his instincts about what's going on to avoid upsetting her. > What I want to know is why he lets her be in control. What does she > has over him? Is it merely because he loves her or does he know > something about her we don't? We know Petunia knows more then she > let on to knowing can the same be said of Vernon? Any ideas, other > examples, and comments are much appreciated! Carol: I think that Vernon and Petunia are operating as a team in their suppression of Harry but with different motivations. Vernon's are fairly simple, he's a Muggle and "Mugglehood," to him, is normal. Petunia, despite her witch sister, is also a Muggle, "normal" to him, and he must have loved her to marry her despite her "freaky" sister. At first (SS/PS chapter one), he simply doesn't want anyone to know that his sister-in-law and her husband are a witch and a wizard. Then Harry shows up on his doorstep, and the need to conceal the "abnormality" of his wife's relations becomes more urgent (in his view). When the owls arrive with the letters for Harry from Hogwarts, he goes into panic mode. (I do think he's in charge at that point. Petunia, Dudley, and Harry are all powerless against what even Dudley perceives as his his father's insanity: "Daddy's gone mad, hasn't he?") Once Vernon realizes that he can't prevent Harry from going to Hogwarts, he reverts to his old methods, trying to force Harry to be "normal" by punishing any accidental magic or use of the "M" word, etc. The only reason he lets Harry out of his cupboard is fear of retribution from the WW. (Later he and Dudley both fear that Harry will cast a spell on them; later still they fear retribution from Harry's "convicted murderer" godfather.) Vernon also pretends that Harry is incorrigible and not quite sane, attending not Hogwarts but St. Brutus' School for Incurably Criminal Boys (IIRC). Essentially, I think Uncle Vernon is the arch-Muggle, the modern descendant of the witch-burners of the Middle Ages. He would deny magic if he could; since he can't, he hates and fears it and tries to suppress it. Petunia's motivations are different and more complex. Unfortunately for those of us who want to interpret her, we've never been allowed inside her mind. We do know that she grew up with a witch sister who got a letter from Hogwarts (clearly Petunia didn't) and apparently did magic over the summer vacations (maybe MoM restrictions weren't so stringent then?). Petunia is obviously jealous of her sister, calling her a "freak" but perhaps secretly wishing she were a freak, too, and calling James "that awful boy" whether or not she really means it. She certainly has seen magic performed, and she knows about Howlers and Dementors. But apparently she doesn't want anyone, including Vernon, to know how much she knows, which explains why she's so uptight when he tries to talk with her about what he's seen in SS/PS chapter one and why she, too, punishes Harry for accidental magic. At first, it seems to me, Petunia's position is rather like Vernon's. They've agreed to hide from the world the fact that she has close relatives who aren't "normal." (It's rather like hiding the fact that your sister is an alcoholic who has been released from prison after serving a prison sentence for a hit-and-run. You don't talk about her and you don't want her to visit you and you don't have any photos of her in your house.) At this point all Petunia and Vernon have to do is hide Lily's and James's existence from their neighbors and Vernon's business contacts. But when Harry arrives on their doorstep, Petunia grasps much more thoroughly than Vernon does how much more complex (and dangerous) the situation has become. Whatever is in the letter that DD puts in Harry's blankets is a binding contract, as he reminds her in the Howler, but clearly she's in the situation against her will. It may well be that her resentment shows in her treatment of Harry. In any case, we know that she knows more than Vernon does about the WW and Harry's parents, and apparently it's much harder for her to keep quiet about it. Twice, when she has a chance to talk, the information she's been holding in bursts out of her. The first instance is in the hut when Hagrid arrives to take Harry to Hogwarts and she can finally confess that her sister and brother-in-law were a witch and wizard and that they were not killed in a car accident. Her resentment and jealousy of Lily are clear, but so is the fact that her feelings have been bottled up for ten years and she can now, finally, reveal part of the secret. In OoP, we get another glimpse of how much Petunia has been concealing, this time the knowledge of what a Dementor is. She perceives the meaning of the Howler and Vernon doesn't, and it does appear at that point that Petunia is in charge. Maybe Vernon understands at last that she knows more than he does and her motives are not the same as his. I have no idea what's going to happen with the Dursleys in the next two books, but I think it's time for Petunia to level with Vernon and tell him what's really going on. He needs to understand that there's more at stake than concealing from the world that they have an "abnormal" nephew or connections with the WW he wants to believe does not exist. The Dementor incident has shown Petunia that she and her family are now in real danger, but she also knows, thanks to the Howler, that she must continue to let Harry stay in her home. How she'll explain that to the arch-Muggle, I can't guess, but I think that telling him the full truth instead of holding everything inside will at least result in an improvement in her emotional state. Maybe it will result in an improvement in her treatment of Harry as well. We can only hope. Carol From belijako at online.no Thu Feb 5 16:53:09 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 16:53:09 -0000 Subject: Colonel Fubster Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90323 Many of us believe we're going to meet Mark Evans again in book 6, revealed as a wizard and enrolled at Hogwarts. -Anyone ever wondered whether old Colonel Fubster is going to pop up again? Colonel Fubster is the old neighbour of aunt Marge who takes care of her dogs when she is visiting her brother Vernon. This is what we know about him: Quote (from PoA, UK Ed): "'Who's looking after the dogs, Marge?' Uncle Vernon asked. 'Oh, I've got Colonel Fubster managing them,' boomed Aunt Marge. 'He's retired now, good for him to have something to do.'" (p. 23) "At that moment, the wine glass Aunt Marge was holding exploded in her hand ... 'Not to worry,' grunted Aunt Marge, mopping her face with her napkin. 'Must have squeezed it too hard. Did the same thing at Colonel Fubster's the other day. No need to fuss Petunia, I have a very firm grip...' But Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon were both looking at harry suspiciously... ...Outside in the hall, he [Harry] leant against the wall, breathing deeply. It had been a long time since he'd lost control and made something explode. He couldn't afford to let it happen again." (p. 25) "'This one's [Harry] got a mean, runty look about him. You get that with dogs. I hade Colonel Fubster drown one last year. Ratty little thing it was. Weak. Underbred.'" (p. 26) I hope you agree with me that it is clear from the text that it was Harry's anger who made the wine glass shatter in Aunt Marge's hand. That's why I find it very interesting that the exact same thing happened in the presence of old Colonel Fubster... Rowling dropping little details like this is rarely coincidental! And Colonel Fubster is mentioned three times in just a few pages. My bet is that Colonel Fubster is more significant than what meets the eye, just like Arabella Figg came into her own in book 5 after having only been a crazy old neighbour mentioned in passing for the first four books. I believe Colonel Fubster is a (retired?) wizard (there is no canon evidence squibs can make glass shatter by magic). Just like Harry, old Fubster is having a hard time controlling his temper when Marge is around :-) I have no idea what Colonel Fubster is doing in Aunt Marge's neighbourhood, but since she seems to know him well he probably has been living there for a long time (at least a year; see quotes). So I have no theory as to why he might be a wizard, I just find the clue about the shattered glass very intriguing. Anyone else who thinks Colonel Fubster will be revealed as a wizard in later books? Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 17:02:51 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:02:51 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20040205125023.04858720@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90324 Carol wrote: The presence of a bee or wasp isn't *proof* that Dumbledore is an animagus, but in conjunction with his last name (which actually means bumblebee, not wasp), it's an interesting bit of evidence. I personally hope he isn't--we've had too many animagi already . Also, if he's unregistered, that would mean he not only condones rule-breaking, he also practices it. However, much as I don't want the theory to be true, I do see one more piece of evidence leading in that direction. Like McGonagall, our registered animagus, Dumbledore was the Transfiguration teacher. In fact, he was *her* Transfiguration teacher, meaning that he must have taught her how to transform into a cat. That being the case, he certainly could have taught himself to turn into a bee or wasp. I prefer to believe the theory that Dumbledore is so powerfully magical that he can make himself invisible at will , but I do see the evidence to indicate that you may be right. Tanya responded: Just one thing to add. Hermione got the animagus list, sure, but it was a list of all the animagus witches and wizards within the past 100 years. As Dumbledore is older than that, He could of easily managed the skill in under 50 years and be off the list in regards to time line. Thanks. That makes me feel better about the rule-breaking, anyway, and the bee/wasp theory is certainly less contrived (and difficult to sustain as a plot device) than the DD=Ron time travel theory. I seem to remember Ron or Harry stunning a wasp when they're practicing stunning spells (possibly in Trelawney's class?). I'll have to pay more attention to the bee/wasp references. If any stinging insects show up in a scene where DD is also present, or the insect stings Harry or one of his friends, I guess we can throw the theory out the window. Otherwise, it remains a possibility. Carol From claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 17:06:05 2004 From: claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:06:05 -0000 Subject: Ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90325 Julie wrote: "You are right...they do give Hogwarts an atmosphere. I'm just wondering if their presence is MORE than atmosphere." I think it is and in my opinion, which I believe JKR also mentioned once, none of the ghosts died happy or least so we are led to believe from what we know so far. So I think this will come back into it possibly something to do with Sirius! (Yes I know what Nick said in OotP, but I dont think Sirius "died" a normal death.) Chris Read my fanfic at groups.yahoo.com/groups/merlin_legacy From ladyasriel2001 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 08:18:35 2004 From: ladyasriel2001 at yahoo.com (ladyasriel2001) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 08:18:35 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90326 Nymph wrote: > I concur with the idea of DD being an unregistered animagus. I'm sure I read an interview with JKR where she said that there would be no more unregistered animagi in the books. Has anyone else seen that? Why does he have to be unregistered? As other people have said, Hermione only looked at the animagi that century and Dumbledore would have become one in the previous century. Lady Asriel From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Thu Feb 5 07:28:34 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 07:28:34 -0000 Subject: How many people know the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90327 snip from entropy mail (from Great Uncle Algie): > If Voldemort believes that Neville's talents are negligible, he won't > even bother to go after him as he has so vehemently gone after poor > Harry. In a way, she's hiding Neville in plain sight. Brilliant! aditya: Well, that would be true supposing that Neville's granny is aware of the prophecy. Not just that the prophecy exists but that also it's contents. And that Neville could be targeted. So far, there has been no clear indication in the books that anyone apart from Dumbledore and now, Harry knows the prophecy. Yeah, it is true that it looked like the members of the Order of Phoenix know that there is a prophecy as do the Death Eaters but I wonder how many people know it in it's entriety? Also if, the Order knows that Voldemort is after Harry because he is supposed to kill Voldemort, then how can they be ever so complacent about keeping Harry in the dark? Aditya From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 17:58:17 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:58:17 -0000 Subject: How many people know the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90328 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > snip from entropy mail (from Great Uncle Algie): > > If Voldemort believes that Neville's talents are negligible, he won't > > even bother to go after him as he has so vehemently gone after poor > > Harry. In a way, she's hiding Neville in plain sight. Brilliant! > > aditya: > Well, that would be true supposing that Neville's granny is aware > of the prophecy. Not just that the prophecy exists but that also > it's contents. And that Neville could be targeted. > > So far, there has been no clear indication in the books that > anyone apart from Dumbledore and now, Harry knows the prophecy. > Yeah, it is true that it looked like the members of the Order of > Phoenix know that there is a prophecy as do the Death Eaters but I > wonder how many people know it in it's entriety? > > Also if, the Order knows that Voldemort is after Harry because he > is supposed to kill Voldemort, then how can they be ever so > complacent about keeping Harry in the dark? > > Aditya I agree. Read my post 90317. Julie From clio44a at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 18:01:22 2004 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 18:01:22 -0000 Subject: snakes, rats, yew and holly...random thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90329 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "artcase" wrote: > > In conclusion, rats vs. snakes ? yew and holly, which is better? > (remember the holly was the ONLY plant that could kill Balder in > Norse mythology, and YEW was the divine tree of the druids. The > Yggdrasil(sp?) (tree of life) is supposed to be a yew tree, and the > french celts worshipped yew as the tree most blessed by the gods. > I was very intrigued when I read your thought about holly being the only plant that could kill Baldur, and of course my thoughts immediately jumped to Harry. The idea of a Harry/Baldur parallel is tempting and I have to think about it, BUT Baldur was killed by an arrow made from mistletoe, not holly, IIRC. Some goddess, I can't remember who, made every tree and bush promise they wouldn't harm the favorite among the gods. She forgot about the mistletoe because it grows on top of trees and therefore is not a bush or tree in its own right. Just thought I should mention this. Yet the image of Harry as Baldur the Invulnerable, who in his arrogance literally invites the assasin to shoot him, is worth a thought or two. Clio From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 18:18:32 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 18:18:32 -0000 Subject: The Dark Mark (was: In Essence Divided) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90330 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" wrote: > Sawsan wrote: > > << 3. The death eaters' symbol is a skull with a snake coming out of > the mouth, perhaps meaning that the snake is "in there head ( this is > not literal, I mean perhaps controlling them or the spirit of one is > residing in the head etc)>> > > > do > other posters think that the Dark Mark is more than just Voldie's > version of a beeper? What I mean to propose here is that it might > have properties similar to those of Harry's scar. > > It struck me that Snape, for one, seems to be more sensitive to the > mentioning of Voldemort's name than others who don't have the Mark > The mention of the name of the wizard who > put the Mark on the DE's arm might sort of activate it in a way. Is it possible that LV can use the Mark as an extra > asset to manipulate his followers, and even sense some of their > feelings, like Harry can feel LV's violent emotions of > pleasure/grief? That, through the Dark Mark, he is a constant > presence in their lives, in another way then just a visible reminder? > The Mark is set by magic probably not dissimilar from the one that > set Harry's scar, I should fancy. > > Thoughts, anyone? > > Yours severely, > > Sigune Yes I have thoughts! Your post and Swansan's post have encouraged me. I am one who thinks that an evil presence beyond LV is at work. This thread was mentioned last week sometime under the subject "Possession." I definitely think TR *chose* to become LV and I think he *chose* to give in to the same power as SS and Grindelwalde (mentioned on DD's chocolate frog card). By the same token, I think you are right about the dark mark being more than just a beeper (that was funny). I think they somehow are marked by this evil presence, but in keeping with JKR, one can *choose* to give in, not give in, and not STAY in. I think this is precisely what Snape has done, thus paving he way for the concept of redemption as has been speculated before. As I mentioned in a previous post, I do not think this is TR being controlled by something. Quite the contrary. I think he chose to be empowered and continues to make this choice. I think TR is the MAIN dark wizard at this time, with the DEs being secondary to him, but I think all have choices. (as Harry will have, I speculate, in Book 7). I do not know if this evil force is a snake or embodies a snake (much like the serpent in Eden). I believe the latter. But the question is...Who empowers whom? Julie From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 18:45:11 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 18:45:11 -0000 Subject: From Black to White (was Peter...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90331 Marianne: Oh - I just had a thought. I could see Harry making a bargain with Peter that ran along the lines of "I'll do what I can to protect you from harm or see that you get a only a short prison sentence, but only if you clear Sirius' name." bboy_mn: Now this brings up a very interesting question - Will Sirius's name ever be cleared and how? My personal opinion has always been that Sirius's name will be cleared in a pre-emptive effort to clear the Black family estate. Harry will publish another article/interview in which he explains what happened; Peter wasn't really dead, Peter actually killed the 13 people, etc.... It would seem that they must first clear Sirius's name, then lay the ground work for a favorable resolution of the Estate, the acknowledge that Black is dead, then finally clear the Black Family Estate, hopefully in Harry's favor, if not directly then at least, indirectly. The key being that they can't acknowledge that he is dead until the have cleared his name and have some knowledge that the estate will be resolved in favor of the good guys. Carol: Although I agree with you that Sirius's name needs to be cleared to resolve all the loose ends of the story, I think that's going to be extremely difficult. As you say, Wormtail is the key. If the Wizengamot sees that he's alive, then Sirius is at least innocent of his murder. It may be more difficult to prove that he didn't kill the twelve Muggles (or betray Lily and James, if that matters to the WG). Proving that he's dead will be even more difficult. Whatever the significance of the Veil in terms of symbolism and so forth, the fact remains that it simply absorbed Sirius. There's no body, no proof that he died fighting Bellatrix, no proof that he was present in the Battle in the DoM. Fudge, who shows up at the end, sees Dumbledore and Harry but no one else on the good side. He has only Dumbledore's word for what happened, and we don't know exactly how much DD thinks he needs to know ("the important points of what has happened here tonight," as DD puts it, OoP 818, Am. ed.). Even if DD tells Fudge what happened to Sirius, is he, with his penchant for denial, likely to believe that Sirius was in that battle and that he's fallen through the Veil? Will anyone else believe it? Only the Aurors Fudge brings with him witness anything, and all they see is Harry, DD, LV, Bellatrix, a group of stunned and bound DEs, and a lot of rubble. (I'm not sure what happens to the other children, but the Order members have almost certainly apparated before the Aurors arrive in the DoM.) My point is, I don't see any way to prove the story of Sirius's falling through--unless DD puts Harry's memory of the battle in the Pensieve and shows it to Fudge. I'm not even sure that would constitute proof to him, or to anyone else whose opinion matters. I also don't think that DD would do that, because he still needs to keep the identities of the Order members secret. (The names of the arrrested DEs were published, but not the full story of the Battle of the DoM and its participants.) So even if Sirius's name is cleared, I don't see how, without a body or testimony from anyone except DD, the DEs, and a group of children, his death is going to be proved. Anyone else have any ideas, or something I'm overlooking? Carol From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 19:18:50 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 19:18:50 -0000 Subject: Did LV try to spare Lily? (was From Black to White (was Peter...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90332 I'm combining posts from Steve (up thread), Naama (#90314 ) and Carol (#90320). Neri wrote: PS, Ch. 17 ? The Man with Two Faces: "Quirrell was walking backwards at him, so that Voldemort could still see him. The evil face was now smiling. "How touching ..." it hissed. "I always value bravery ... Yes, boy, your parents were brave ... I killed your father first and he put up a courageous fight ... but your mother needn't have died ... she was trying to protect you ... Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have died in vain." So LV remembered that Lily "needn't have died" ten years after the case. That doesn't sound like utter disinterest or yesterday rubbish. Also, for the plot it is essential that Lily needn't have died. If she had, then it would have been a simple murder, as was James' death, and not a sacrifice. So I think there is definitely something there. bboy_mn: Sorry, but your quote and statements confirm what I said (at least to me) rather than deny my conclusion. First, and foremost, remember when Voldemort/Quirrel said this, he had ulterior motives. First he tried to convince Harry that he could bring his parents back to life if Harry would only join Voldemort. Neri notes: I can't remember anywhere in the book where LV suggests he can bring Harry's parents back to life. I seem to remember there was something like that in TMTMNBN, and personally I thought this prop was way overboard. bboy_mn: When that didn't work, he tried to prey on fear, intimidation, and emotions. Neri: Do you suggest that LV did *not* remember that he said "step aside, silly girl", and ten years later he invented again this "but your mother needn't have died" in order to play on Harry's emotions? This is somewhat contrived. A simpler explanation is that he did remember it, which suggests it did have some significance for him. bboy_mn: Lily was inconsequential and insignificant to Voldemort which is exactly why she didn't have to die. As long as Voldemort got what he wanted, which was Harry dead, he could care less if Lily lived or died. So, he didn't kill her because she was part of his Grand Plot, she simply interferred with his objective, and Voldemort casually killed her rather than allow her to delay him from his goal. Also Carol: I imagine LV would have killed her as frosting on the cake after the main job was done, though maybe he would have enjoyed watching her suffer first. (If Bella was with him, I'm sure he'd have left Lily to her.) But, to repeat, I think he didn't kill her at first because he perceived her as an obstacle, not a threat. He didn't care whether she was dead or alive at that point, as long as she was out of his way. It was Harry's death that mattered. Naama: But all this applies just as well to James. If, as you say (and I agree with you), that Voldemort had one overriding objective and that was to kill Harry, then James is just as inconsequential to him as Lily at that point. But still, he differentiates between them - it is *Lily* who needn't have died. Why only she and not James? Neri: I agree. The books make it clear time and again that it was Lily's death, not James' death, that was critical for the protection of Harry and the first defeat of LV. There must be a principal difference between these two deaths. Carol: I think the answer is contained in LV's words to Lily, "Step aside, you silly girl!" Clearly he doesn't perceive her as a threat, maybe because she's very young (about twenty-one: note "girl," not "woman") and Muggle-born--both possible grounds for contempt in LV's view in anyone who isn't "the one" (killing off Muggle-borns has ceased to matter to him now, as Tom Riddle tells us in CoS)--and she's female to boot. Naama: I seem to detect an underlying assumption here, which is that Voldemort would have seen James as a threat and therefore James' death was necessary to him. Lily, on the other hand, he wouldn't see as a threat, and therefore didn't have to kill her. I think this reflects a kind of male chauvinism which doesn't seem to apply to the WW, or even to Voldemort himself. At least, we don't have any evidence for it. Witches are just as powerful as men in the WW, and this seems to be taken for granted in the Potterverse. Neri: I agree. Hermione and McGonagall are powerful at least as much as their male peers, and the most powerful and dangerous supporter of LV himself is Bellatrix. LV *is* extremely arrogant, but he is clearly not arrogant towards females more than he is arrogant towards males. Naama: Another point I'd like to make is that Voldemort and his followers take pleasure in killing and torturing for its own sake. I would have thought that for Voldemort the question wouldn't be "why kill" but "why not kill". So, if he didn't just automatically, unthinkingly, kill her, there must have been some reason for it. For some reason Lily was someone he preferred *not* to kill. Neri: I agree again with Naama, and would like to add: if Lily and/or the reader believe that LV would have killed Harry first because this was his major objective, and only after that would have taken his time killing Lily (even only as squashing a fly), then Lily's death is not a real sacrifice (no more than James' death, for sure), but a matter of her choosing if she prefer to die before or after her son. bboy_mn: That's from Voldemort's perspective. But he is someone who really doesn't understand the world and people around him very well; he way to abosorbed in himself. That's what will eventually lead to his downfall again, and that is at the core of all the classic 'Evil Overlord' mistakes that he makes in every book. He is supreme in his arrogance. Neri: At the time the prophecy was made, James and Lily had already defied LV no less than three times. I can't think of anything that would irk the "Dark Lord" more than that, even if he is so arrogant he doesn't regard them as real opponents. So, while LV's major objective was certainly killing Harry, logic would have suggested that finally nailing both James and Lily would have been an important bonus for him. bboy_mn: Logically, what parent would casually step aside while the most evil wizard in a century killed their child? I'm pretty sure, that those parents would be in an extreme minority. Neri: Yes. This is why I tend to believe that Lily did cast some special charm of "Old Magic". But still, the books make it very clear that the death of James, who also put himself between LV and his family, was not the one who sealed the Old Magic. It required Lily's "sacrifice". And it would only be a real sacrifice if Lily "needn't have died". bboy_mn: I think it makes much more sense to assume that Lily was of little or no consequence than to fantasize that somebody or other was in love with somebody else (Lupin/Lily, Snape/Lily, Voldemort/Lily, Wormtail/Lily, Trevor_the_Toad/Lily, etc...), or somebody owned somebody something (life debt), or that some unlikely character is related to some other unlikely character (Harry/Lily/James's uncle/cousin/father/grandfather is Snape/Slytherin/Riddle/Voldemort/Dumbledore/Griffindor/etc...). Neri: I readily agree with you that many of these explanations seem like terrible clich?s, if not outright ridiculous. Although, to be fair to JKR, I don't believe she imagined, when she first invented the major plot, that several internet forums will discuss to death every possible explanation, coding them with imaginative/silly acronyms, until they all become terrible clich?s. Another possibility is that JKR will never give a satisfactory explanation why LV tried to spare Lily. But I think that just the fact that he did (rather than his reasons) is essential to the plot and for the whole theme of self- sacrifice in the books. Without it, Lily's death is no more of a sacrifice than James' death. But if JKR is indeed a great author, she may yet manage to give an explanation that will not look like a clich?, and will solve some additional mysteries regarding the past. We'll just have to wait and see. Neri From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 19:57:58 2004 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (JuHu) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:57:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD an animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040205195758.70983.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90333 Tanya said: > Just one thing to add. Hermione got the animagus > list, sure, but it > was a list of all the animagus witches and wizards > within the past 100 > years. As Dumbledore is older than that, He could of > easily managed > the skill in under 50 years and be off the list in > regards to time line. Now me: I don't believe it would be smart for the MoM to just take off those when a century has expired. Being the paranoid lot that they are, they'd keep all Animagi registered until they are darn sure that they were dead. Another thing to consider is that Hermione saw the list, *we* (AKA Harry) didn't. And what she informs us is that, "We did Animagi in class with Professor McGonagall. And I looked them up when I did my homework- the Ministry of Magic keeps tabs on witches and wizards who can become animals; there's a register showing what animal they become, and their markings and things . . . and I went and looked Professor McGonagall up on the register, and there have been only seven Animagi this century, and Pettigrew's name wasn't on the list- " ("Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs" US p. 351) This doesn't rule out the possibility that Hermione saw previous centuries. She was just telling Lupin what she saw, and trying to make him see reason. This also wasn't an appropriate time and place to throw over to Harry, Ron and the reader, "Oh, and by the way, Dumbledore is an Animagus, too. He turns into a purple hippogriff." Hermione doesn't always give Harry and Ron more information than they *need to know*, such as Lupin being a werewolf. JuHu, envying Tonks her metamorphmagus ability __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 20:18:43 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:18:43 -0000 Subject: Great Uncle Algie and Neville's Gran In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90334 "suehpfan" wrote: > It seems to me that what Neville's Grandmother really wants is to > protect Neville at all cost. Is it possible that she has been using > memory charms on him all along in the hopes that he will be unable to > perform magic and therefore safe from the hands of one Voldemort and > his followers? If that is possible, then isn't it also possible that > Uncle Algie is trying to thwart his sister (?) and make sure that > Neville gets what he needs to become the wizard Algie knows he can > be. > > It would explain Granny's refusal to allow Neville his own wand and > the constant jabs at his capabilities, not because she really > believes him incapable but because she hopes to keep him from > discovering his true potential. Carol: I think that both Uncle Algie and Gran care about Neville in their different ways. I realize that hanging your great nephew out the window by his heels is an odd way to prove affection, but Uncle Algie is old and quirky and was worried until then that Neville might be a Squib (I know the book says "All Muggle," but the term "Squib" hadn't been introduced, and the Longbottoms are purebloods so Neville couldn't have been any sort of Muggle.) Uncle Algie showed his affection for Neville by giving him his two most prized possessions, Trevor the Toad and the Mimbulus Mimbletonia. The second seems to indicate that he now recognizes, and is proud of, Neville's skill in herbology. Maybe it's also his way of saying that he's sorry he ever doubted Neville (or hung him out the window). Gran is harder to explain. In some ways she reminds me of Professor McGonagall, stern and old-fashioned, but with more of a pureblood air about her, yet she must be adamantly opposed to the Death Eaters, who presumably killed her husband (we know that he's dead and Neville says he saw him die) and Crucio'd her son and daughter-in-law, both Aurors, driving them to insanity. I have no doubt that in her stern way she loves Neville and is trying to do what's best for him, but instead of encouraging him and building his self-confidence (which McGonagall, for all her impatience with Neville's deficiencies, recognizes that he needs), she reminds him of his deficiencies by sending him a Remembrall and turning in his Hogsmeade permission form for him as if she doesn't trust him not to lose it. Of course, the forgetfulness is not an imagined failing--it's quite real, whatever its cause--but it adds to her perception of his inadequacy. And since the way others see us--especially powerful and important others whom we want to please--shapes the way we see ourselves, Gran's view of Neville reinforces his view of himself as not only forgetful and clumsy but barely magical. But the wand, I think, is something else again. I don't think Gran deliberately gave Neville his father's wand to prevent him from adequately performing magic. It probably did hinder Neville's progress in Charms and Transfiguration, but I don't think that was Gran's intention. I think the wand has more to do with her view of Frank, her much-loved son. IMO, his wand is to her a cherished reminder of what he was before the DEs took away his mind and powers, and I think that her giving it to Neville meant two things. First, it was an admission in her own mind that Frank was lost to her forever, that he would not return, that he was, to all intents and purposes, dead. There would be no moment of waking when she could return his wand to him and all would be well again. Second, to give the wand she had so cherished to Neville would be, in her view, a great honor. This was the wand that had fought against Death Eaters, the wand that had been used three times to challenge Voldemort himself--a token of Gran's hope that Neville will overcome his deficiencies and bring honor to the family by follow in his father's footsteps. And now that wand broken. How will Gran react? Neville thinks she'll "kill him," but Ron uses the same expression to describes Molly's ranting and I think it's the same sort of adolescent exaggeration in this case. Given the circumstances in which the wand was broken, I think Gran will be proud rather than angry. Maybe she'll reaize that even if Neville isn't Frank, she can still be proud of him in his own right. I think and hope she'll be glad now to buy Neville his own wand. After all, if he's going to fight Death Eaters like his father, he'd better be able to do it right. Carol, who doesn't think there's any need for memory charms to explain what's wrong with Neville and has no doubt that he'll become a hero in Books 6 and 7 From rredordead at aol.com Thu Feb 5 20:32:18 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:32:18 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew Power (Was: James Potter Bio Facts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90335 Regrettably I had snip, a lot, but the post would be far too long. Hitomi wrote: Ok, to be honest, when I first read your opinion, it disturbed me. Mandy here: Oh goodie. ;-) It's by studying the `evil' people in the world which will increase our understanding of what make some of us do despicable things and other not. Just condemning them will not change anything. Hitomi wrote: Peter's insecurity is not his only weakness. To be perfectly honest, we don't actually know if he was insecure, if he actually thought less of himself. We know Neville is insecure, for obvious reasons. But I think that it is a profound mistake to believe Peter is the way he is due to insecurity. Insecure people certainly do not turn into mass murderers as a rule. Mandy here Neither do abused children, as a rule, but some do. We don't know hardly anything about Peter Pettigrew which makes debating his behavior very difficult, and it is unfair to compare him to Neville who is character we know so much about. Peter is almost certainly insecure. Unsure of his own abilities which leads him to live in the shadow of boys who are very secure and confident. We all learn from the example of others, both positively and negatively. The strength of others inspires us. Hitomi wrote: But more than likely, Peter just became James's and Sirius' friend out of fear. It's far easier to be their friend than their enemy, Mandy here Classic insecure behavior! Peter doesn't have the self confidence to believe he could stand up to these boys so he ingratiates himself to them. Hitomi wrote: and he couldn't possibly have deluded himself into believing James and Sirius were wonderful people. Mandy here Why not? The rest of the school did. Peter put up with the crap James and Sirius dished because of his desire to be friends with the top dogs in school. Of course Peter thought they were wonderful. Peter has proven himself to be sneaky, intelligent and crafty if he had to pick a crew to hang out with, who could offer the protection and reflected glory he craved, who else would he pick? Hitomi wrote: They weren't terrible people, they didn't delight in evil or anything so obvious, and they picked on those whom they believed deserved it, such as Mr. Dark-Arts- Himself-Snivellus-Snape. But they were arrogant, cruel to those such as Snape and those they didn't like; and as we all know, there is nothing more cruel than a child in all its purity. Mandy here: They weren't terrible people! Are you kidding? Of course they were. However we can forgive them for it because they were children, and as you yourself mention below, children don't understand compassion. But it doesn't make their behavior any less terrible. James and Sirius behaved in a despicably cruel and terrible way towards Snape in the one example of their bullying we have in OotP. And it has been said from their own mouths, that they hexed kids in the corridors because they could. Not to mention Sirius attempted to KILL Severus when he was 16! We have no evidence to prove or disprove they only picked on kids they didn't like. And your implication that it is OK to bully a child who `deserves' it, is very disturbing. Who determines what kind of behavior `deserves' the bulling treatment? The bully himself? I sure James and Sirius could find a very good reason to determine who deserved their wrath whenever it suited them. Hitomi wrote: But back to my point, James and Sirius were typical children, and then typical teenagers. I just graduated from high school, and I'm a Japanese minority, one of the "smart" kids, and I know what the cruelty of my peers can be. Mandy here: Well, we have something in common then, and in common with Peter himself. The cruelty of kids in school. I was the little shy, insecure girl who was `lucky' enough to be friends with the cool girls only to have them pick on me when no-one else was around. Sound familiar. Yep, it's why I relate t Peter I suppose. Although I haven't killed anyone. Yet. :-) I'm joking. Hitomi wrote: But had Pettigrew EVER cared for them, he would never have been able to do what he did. Mandy here: Well that depends on how you define care. I think you will find that many serial killers care deeply for their victims before and while they are torturing and killing them. Peter cared and loved his friends but switched that affection to a new God when he found it. Hitomi wrote: Peter's abilities were as good as theirs, because they helped him. They helped him become an animagus (Book 3). Mandy here: There it is: underestimating Peter and proving my original argument. If it was that easy to become an animagi that there would be thousands running around. A witch or wizard could simply ask their neighbor to help them out and, boom, an other animagi! After all its an incredibly useful ability, desirous of many witches and wizards I would imagine. Who wouldn't want to be able to change into an animal even for fun? But we know it is very difficult magic to achieve and very few are able to do it. Hitomi wrote: This is, in my opinion, a gross over-sympathetic view. Peter did turn his back on his "friends," and James and Sirius were certainly not great friends back then. Mandy here I'm under the impression that the Maurders were the greatest of friends. If you don't believe that, how can the devastating revelation of the horror of betrayal and the astounding beauty of forgiveness at the end of PoA mean anything? The book profound and moving because of the redemption of Remus and Sirius, the discovery of their mutual distrust for over 13 years, and their lost and found love. And of course the discovery, by Remus of the true betrayer; Peter Pettigrew. Hitomi wrote: But they grew up, they learned better, and they became decent people. And THAT is when Peter betrayed them. And not just James. Lily and their one-year-old son. Mandy here One of the tragedies of the saga is that fact that none of the Mauders, with the exception of Remus, grew-up. Peter betrayed, James died and Sirius went to prison only 2 years out of school. 20 years old is still very young, inexperienced and naive. Granted, they lived in a time of war so they most likely grew up faster than kids today, but they were still young adult men and behaved and thought like young adult men and made mistakes like young adult men. Hitomi wrote: People love to over-sympathize with those that are bullied, because this is one of the few instances in the series that we can truly relate to. Most of Harry's situations we can't, they're too unreal. And Peter and Snape were bullied, but that does NOT excuse Snape having ever become a Death Eater, or his obvious cruelty to his students. Mandy here I'm not over sympathizing with Peter. As I said in my original post he is a despicable person, but evil people are still human. No matter how we all hate to admit it. Even Hitler was human, had a mother, and was made of flesh and blood, just like us. But much of the behavior of these despicable people is formed in their youth. Note I say much, "not all", as this not an excuse. We all have to grow up a take responsibility for our actions. But when your dealing with a man as young as Peter was when he betrayed James, you have to consider his treatment by those around him and understand that they, while they are not responsible, hold a key to his behavior. Peter now, at 35, is a very different story. He has grown up and he will reap what he has sown. He will be forced to pay for what he has done. Hitomi wrote: And I highly doubt that Voldemort was ever kind to Peter. He probably just promised him that "reflected glory," and Peter went running, like the weak idiot he is. He even said in Book 3, that to not be LV's follower was equivalent to suicide. His friends weren't the strongest anymore, to hang around them was to remain vulnerable. To become LV's follower was to become safe. Mandy here You don't think that giving Peter a silver hand was an act of kindness? Not from LV's point of view it wasn't LV was taking care of business, but to Peter, oh God yes it was kind! He practically wept with joy when he received that `gift.' Ok, he was weeping in agony as well, but joy and despair are so far apart they meet in the middle. It was a gift from his God. Hitomi wrote: Peter values his life over anyone else's, over all else. That's arrogance, not insecurity. Mandy here Agreed it is arrogance but it's an arrogance that is born out of insecurity, born out of the desperation that Peter believe he simply has no other option but to do whatever it takes to survive. He can not conceive of any other way out because he is restricted by his narrow self-perception. He is too scared to take another road, to choose another path. I argue that this is not weakness because it takes just as much courage to do the wrong thing when it hurts those you love, as it does to do the right. As a society we are not taught this because society wants to reward us for doing the right thing and scare us in to avoiding the wrong path. For good reasons, please don't think I promoting bad behavior. I'm not. Hitomi wrote: He believes his life to be worth more than goodness, than the lives of those he supposedly "loves," than the life of a one-year-old boy who had not yet had the chance to live. Sirius admitted he would have died for Peter. He said James would have as well. Peter turned his back on their love, however badly they may have expressed it. And he turned towards the epitome of hate. Peter is beyond despicable. He is evil. Mandy here Sure Peter is evil, despicable, sad, but he still needs to be a 3- dimentional character. You want to believe that Peter didn't care for James and Sirius because than you can believe it was easy for him to turn on them and there-for deduce that he was weak. Boring. I believe Peter loved James and Sirius and it was the hardest thing in the world for him to turn against them. It tore him apart, left him living in hell everyday for the rest of his life. Now doesn't that make for a much more exciting and dramatic plot line? Doesn't it make Peter Pettigrew more interesting, 3- dimentional and conflicted? Even if you hate him. I think so. Hitomi wrote: And I don't think people underestimate Peter anymore. They know what he's capable of now. Mandy here: In the story not as much, but outside the story in the HP for GP world, it appears just about everybody is still underestimating Peter. Hitomi wrote: But Peter is predictable. Just look for the most powerful person, and there you will find Peter Pettigrew. The name Wormtail really does fit him. Mandy here: Was predictable, yes, but possibly not any more. Where was he through out OotP? Working for LV? Yes, but where? What was he doing? Peter is missing in action right now and that is a very scary prospect indeed. Hitomi wrote: I don't expect anyone to share my strong feelings of dislike for this character. I just can't understand how you could possibly like him. Hitomi, who sticks Peter in the same category as Bellatrix, Lucius, and Umbridge Mandy here Don't worry your not alone. And I'm sure you are going to cringe when I say I like Lucius, Bellatrix and Umbridge as much as I do Peter. The `bad' characters, in fiction and non-fiction always fascinate me because they represent the dark side of human nature. Those thoughts we all have, occasionally, and are terrified and embarrassed of. Yet these people act on them. Why? For some reason they are not censored, either because do abuse, neglect, a multitude of reasons, or, occasionally, just born that way. We can't have light with out dark, good without evil and kindness without nastiness. Mandy, who doesn't find the good characters boring at all. I just find the bad ones more interesting, conflicted and delightful. From snapesmate at hotmail.com Thu Feb 5 20:44:16 2004 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:44:16 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow Playback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "armadillof" wrote: > Phil: > > > We know Harry witnessed his own AK because he can recall the green > > flash, (I mean he wasn't asleep). > > > > > > Does this theory explain DD's knowledge ? > > A.F. What I'd like to know is, WHO was the robe wearing person standing just behind Voldemeort's right shoulder in that "playback". I have slow-moed and paused using a frame by frame advance of the DVD. There is no mistaking the fact that someone IS standing behind Voldemeort's right shoulder, even though he is initially shown walking alone toward the Potters' home... Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is not a nice guy! From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 20:46:38 2004 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:46:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4215 In-Reply-To: <1075952716.9793.38454.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040205204638.50206.qmail@web10010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90337 Message: 1 Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:16:26 -0000 From: "justcarol67" Subject: Re: Question: Baruffio and the buffalo > Neri: I would have thought that the editors got it mixed up as usual and it actually should have written "said `f' instead of `s' ", but what the @$#& is a "bussalo"??? Do we need a Latin expert here? Ravenclaw Bookworm: According to the dictionary.com/translate page, 'bussalo' is Italian for 'it knocks'. > > > Geoff: > That assumes that the word "buffalo" was part of the spell. I would > agree that to mix up 's' and 'f', it might have to be in a different > language (such as Latin). Carol: I'm also assuming that the spell was in Latin, like most spells in the HP books. (Maybe "accio something-or-other"). I tried looking up the Latin for "buffalo" using an online English-to-Latin dictionary and came up with "bubalus." That would mean that Baruffio meant to say something like "accio bubaluf" and said "accio bubalus" instead. But I don't think that would work. "Bubaluf" is worse than "bussalo." Besides, he didn't just conjure up a buffalo by mistake. It landed on his chest! Also, IIRC, the letter "f" isn't all that common in Latin words (except possibly as a spelling to represent that sound in words borrowed from Greek containing the lieeter phi). It's been a very long time since I studied Latin, so I could be wrong. I'm down to the theory that it was just a comic example intended by both Flitwick and JKR to illustrate the importance of correct pronunciation (much like the Diagon Alley/floo powder example that someone (I think Geoff) used in an earlier post. Carol, who thinks the Baruffio story is hilarious regardless of what he was trying to say or do I don't know what Bifon is but a yahoo search returned a few hundred non english websites. Bison by the way is the North American buffalo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 21:08:34 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 21:08:34 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow Playback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90338 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "armadillof" > wrote: > > Phil: > > > > > We know Harry witnessed his own AK because he can recall the > green > > > flash, (I mean he wasn't asleep). > > > > > > > > Does this theory explain DD's knowledge ? > > > > A.F. > > What I'd like to know is, WHO was the robe wearing person standing > just behind Voldemeort's right shoulder in that "playback". I have > slow-moed and paused using a frame by frame advance of the DVD. > There is no mistaking the fact that someone IS standing behind > Voldemeort's right shoulder, even though he is initially shown > walking alone toward the Potters' home... > > Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is not a nice > guy! The question I have is this: Is the person standing to LV's shoulder movie contamination or is there canon evidence for someone else being there? Julie From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 21:19:19 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 21:19:19 -0000 Subject: Did LV try to spare Lily? Motivations are the Key In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90339 This thread has gotten a little to long to try and quote and address issues point by point, so I will try and get my position across in a summary. James- Was James sacrifice for nothing? If Lily could have been spared, why was James killed? The difference between Lily and James is that James step FORWARD to fight with Voldemort, to give Lily time to take Harry and run. So James is in a direct confrontational duel with Voldemort, and that is was got him killed. Lily on the other hand stepped BACK to specifically protect Harry. That doesn't in any way diminish his death. He fought bravely in an effort to save his home and family, but it was a general effort. Lily's efforts were very specific both in location and intent. Lily- I thought I made it clear that Lily did not have to die, even if I didn't make it clear, I did say it. We argue not so much on IF as we do on WHY. Why she didn't have to die, I do not see as any grand gesture, mercy, benevolence, or integral part of a grand scheme on Voldemort's part. She was simply inconsequential. He had what he wanted, which was Harry, and that was all that matter. In blocking his way, Lily became an inconvenience and Voldemort casually killed her. Another point I tried to make is that Voldemort's motivations don't effect Lily's motivations. Lily could have cowered in a corner paralyzed with fear, and sat by helplessly while Voldemort killed her son. In a case like that, Voldemort may have just walked out after killing Harry, and left Lily alive. I even suspect that part of Voldemort's modus operandi is to indeed always leave someone alive after a raid. The fact that someone is alive to tell the chilling tale of how murderous Voldemort and the DE's are would only serve to increase the level of terror in the wizarding world. So YES, Lily could have been spare. But Voldemort doesn't understand DEEPER human motivations. As someone else pointed out from the simplest mammal all the way up the food chain to Humans, all mothers will fiercely protect their young. So, Lily steps forward determined to protect Harry. The fact that Voldemort saw this as an annoyance, in no way undermines what Lily did, nor does it diminish her sacrifice in any way. Regardless of Voldemort's motivations, Lily was motivated by protecting her son at all cost, Lily is motivated by her courage and willingness to sacrifice herself. It is Voldemort own lack of awareness of these very motivations of Lily's that lead to his downfall. Certainly, Voldemort can understand the human motivations of fear, power, lust, and greed, but he falls very far short in his understanding of love, compassion, true heartfelt loyalty, and selfless sacrifice. Voldemort- Whether Voldemort would have spared Lily out of indifference, or due to some grand intricate and mostly fanciful plot twist is irrelevant. If Lily had stepped aside there is a chance she would have been spared. When she didn't step aside, he killed her, not as part of some grand plan, but because she interfered with his objective, and to him, human life is cheap. Keep in mind, if Volemort was really intent on sparing Lily, he could have stunned her. The fact that he killed her only re-enforces my belief that her life or death was inconsequential. Keep in mind, it's inconsequential in Voldemort's mind, but of great consequence to Harry and the story, and of course, unknown to him at that instant, of great consequence to Voldemort too. So, to Voldemort, life is cheap, take it or leave it, it hardly matters. It is his objectives that are important. Lily interfered with his objective; Lily died as a result. Lily and Voldemort's motivations do not have to be in sync for this too work. Lily can be inconsequential to Voldemort with out his attitude diminishing her sacrifice in any way. It is, in fact, Voldemort's lack of understanding of Lily's motivations that is his downfall. Lily didn't have to die, on that we seem to agree. Now the question is whether she didn't need to die because of Voldemort's indifference or because of some grand fanciful scheme. You know my position. I will close by saying that there is substantially more to the story of Voldemort's defeat at Godric's Hollow than we now know, and each of the characters, I'm sure, has underlying secrets that will eventually be revealed. In summary, it not Voldemort's attitude toward Lily, but Lily's attitude toward Voldemort and Harry that give value to her sacrifice. Then again, it's just a thought. bboy_mn From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Feb 5 21:43:10 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 21:43:10 -0000 Subject: Who was involved in James and Lily's death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90340 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > Pippin wrote: > > > Perhaps Voldemort didn't think Lily had defied him the requisite > > number of times when he confronted her, and this is why he > > wanted her to stand aside. > > I'm not sure I understand this. Was he thinking 'I'm not sure if > she's had two strikes or three, so I'd better attack Harry in case > it's three, but if it's only two, then attacking her might help > fulfil the prophecy by converting her to a triple (if I fail), and > thus Harry into my nemesis, so I'd better not do that'? I know he > has a propensity for plans so complex that they are virtually > guaranteed to fail, but I sense a biscuit is being taken here. Pippin responds: A biscuit??? ::googles::oh, do you mean " a cake" as in "that takes the cake" ? No, I think his reasoning was something like, "Well, only the Longbottoms have defied me three times...must be them. No wait, prophecies are tricky, I'd better eliminate all the couples who've defied me more than once, heheh, *that's* a short list...(ticks off on long white fingers) " McKinnons, Bones, Prewitts, yes, what about Potter--*he's* defied me three times, but I'm not sure about her, was she in that raid or not? Oh, never mind, I'll kill the husband and the child first, then it won't matter. " Remember, Voldemort doesn't know about all the marks as his equal blather. He thinks all he has to do is kill the child before it's old enough to be dangerous to him. Dave: > All theories which hinge on his hesitation in attacking Lily seem to me to founder on the split-second length of that hesitation, which > suggests economy of effort as the motive: > > "Stand aside, you silly girl." > "Never!" > "I said, stand- oh, I can't be doing with this, Avada Kedavra, now for the child." Pippin: But Harry remembers quite a bit more than a split second of dialogue: "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!" "Stand aside you silly girl...stand aside, now..." "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead--" "Not Harry! Please...have mercy...have mercy...." "Not Harry! Not Harry! Please--I'll do anything--" "Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!" Voldemort doesn't seem to be enjoying the screams, yet he doesn't stun her into silence or blast her aside. He seems to really want her to step out of the way of her own free will. > > I rather like the idea of Voldemort gold-plating his Herod-like > credentials for evil-doing by deliberately going about ineptly > attacking parents whose children were born in late July, so as > to have an excuse to attack the children, though. LOL! Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 21:50:57 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 21:50:57 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90341 > Carol: > In fact, he was *her* Transfiguration > > teacher, meaning that he must have taught her how to transform into > a cat. Jim Ferer wrote > Was Dumbeldore in fact McGonagall's teacher? Maybe. I don't know > who else it would have been. With McGonagall as Assistant > Headmistress, does this mean that Transfiguration teacher is the > first among equals of the staff? I believe it is. Carol again: I hadn't thought about McGonagall as "first among equals," but I suppose she is. The other Heads of Houses (Snape, Flitwick, Sprout) would be next in rank, then the other professors (Binns, Sinistra, Trelwney, and Vector?), then the mere instructors (Hagrid and Madam Hooch), along with the staff members like Madams Pomfrey and Pince. Filch, I suppose, is at the bottom. As for Dumbledore being McGonagall's Transfiguration teacher, he was Tom Riddle's and they were only a few years apart. (I thought it was six or seven years--now it appears closer to three.) Dumbledore would have been about 100 then, and presumably had been teaching at Hogwarts for a good many years before that. I assume he was Head of Gryffindor House then, too, but of course I could be wrong on that. Carol From amani at charter.net Thu Feb 5 22:10:39 2004 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:10:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colonel Fubster References: Message-ID: <005c01c3ec34$e42e4d00$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90342 Berit: Anyone else who thinks Colonel Fubster will be revealed as a wizard in later books? Taryn: Surprisingly, this is a question that's been posed to JKR before and I remembered, so I went and looked it up and, voila (unfortunately, as it disagrees with your proposed theory): In Prisoner of Azkaban, a character by the name of Colonel Fubster was mentioned. Is he a wizard? No, he's a Muggle neighbour of Aunt Marge's. (Poor man!) http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-livechat-barnesnoble.html --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 23:12:33 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 23:12:33 -0000 Subject: Who was involved in James and Lily's death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90343 ->Pippin: > > But Harry remembers quite a bit more than a split second of > dialogue: > > "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!" > "Stand aside you silly girl...stand aside, now..." > "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead--" > "Not Harry! Please...have mercy...have mercy...." > > "Not Harry! Not Harry! Please--I'll do anything--" > "Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!" > > > Voldemort doesn't seem to be enjoying the screams, yet he > doesn't stun her into silence or blast her aside. He seems to > really want her to step out of the way of her own free will. > Carol: Ah. Now we get to the meat of the matter. I'm not sure why Voldemort hesitated to kill Lily, certainly not out of kindness or affection or respect for her. But as I said before, he *had* to kill James because James came at him ready to fight, whereas Lily was not threatening him; she was merely a "silly girl" standing in his way. She might not even have been holding a wand. So in his view, she didn't have to die. All she had to do was stand aside and let him kill her son. But of course she's not going to stand aside. No mother would. And, equally important, she's not going to be silent. look at her words: "Kill me instead." She *insists* on being killed. Why? Because she knows that only her self-sacrifice can save Harry. It won't do for her to be merely stunned. To invoke the "ancient magic" (whether or not it involves a protective charm she's placed on Harry, as I think it does), Lily *does* have to die. But LV doesn't know that, either at Godric's Hollow or in the Quirrelmort scene where he implies that she died for nothing. He's right that he didn't have to kill her. He could have stunned her. But he's wrong that she didn't have to die. She did have to, but for her own reasons, not his. Carol From belijako at online.no Fri Feb 6 00:05:12 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 00:05:12 -0000 Subject: Colonel Fubster In-Reply-To: <005c01c3ec34$e42e4d00$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90344 Taryn wrote: In Prisoner of Azkaban, a character by the name of Colonel Fubster was mentioned. Is he a wizard? No, he's a Muggle neighbour of Aunt Marge's. (Poor man!) Berit replies: Thanks Taryn! That sort of killed my theory, yeah :-) What a shame; I thought the shattering glass-clue was so neat... Of course I might speculate that Rowling said that just to lure me off track... but no, if that was the case she probably would have said "I'm not going to answer that; you'll just have to wait and see"; her standard-answer when she won't disclose too much. So I'm going to leave it. For now :- ) Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From kcawte at ntlworld.com Fri Feb 6 08:23:11 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 00:23:11 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colonel Fubster References: Message-ID: <002101c3ec8a$75a5fbc0$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 90345 > > Berit replies: > Thanks Taryn! That sort of killed my theory, yeah :-) What a shame; I > thought the shattering glass-clue was so neat... Of course I might > speculate that Rowling said that just to lure me off track... but no, > if that was the case she probably would have said "I'm not going to > answer that; you'll just have to wait and see"; her standard-answer > when she won't disclose too much. So I'm going to leave it. For now :- > ) > K Didn't JKR say that we would see someone older developing magical powers (or something like that)? In which case maybe *Marge* shattered the glass? Oh what a horrible thought - although Petunia and Vernon's reactions would be amusing. Is Marge related to Petunia? Or Vernon? Thinking about the various discussions on how wizards, muggles and squibs fit together genetically it would be interesting if she was magical and was related to Petunia and Lily. K From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Feb 6 00:25:46 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 00:25:46 -0000 Subject: From Black to White (was Peter...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90346 Steve wrote: > It would seem that they must first clear Sirius's name, then lay the > ground work for a favorable resolution of the Estate, the acknowledge > that Black is dead, then finally clear the Black Family Estate, > hopefully in Harry's favor, if not directly then at least, indirectly. > The key being that they can't acknowledge that he is dead until the > have cleared his name and have some knowledge that the estate will be > resolved in favor of the good guys. > > Personally, I suspect the existance of a handwritten Will by Sirius, > but the validity will be contested as long as Sirius is considered a > criminal. Therefore, the first step is to clear his name. Now Marianne: Why would the fact that Sirius is still considered a criminal have anything to do with whether he could will the estate to someone? He obviously inherited it, even though he is a criminal. Or are you saying that as a criminal, his estate could still be inherited by someone within the family, but the criminality bit precludes Sirius leaving anything of the estate (not necessarily personal possessions) to someone other than a Black? Steve again: > Naturally, Draco is the nearest male Heir, so it would be a fight > between Harry and Draco over the estate. That could make some juicy > conflict between Harry and Draco. Marianne: Oh yes, both boys tussling over an estate, while separated from their father figures due to death and prison, although how long Lucius remains behind bars is anyone's guess. Somehow, I see him slithering out sooner rather than later. Steve: > One outcome I wouldn't mind seeing is Sirius leaving the bulk of the > estate to the Weasleys in Trust, that is, the Weasleys manage the > Black Estate on Harry's behalf. In a way, that would make Arthur and > Molly Harry's official wizard guardians, not to mention making them > rich; at least functionally rich, if not literally rich. > > Don't really want to start the 'Black Inheritance' thread again, as > that's been discussed in detail. I'm more interested in people opinion > of IF and HOW Sirius Black's name will be cleared. Marianne: Like many things in the books, I find myself on the fence. I would dearly love to have Sirius' name cleared eventually, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's not. If Peter pulls off another vanishing act and no one from the DE side who may have some proof of Peter's guilt says anything, then I can see one of Harry's burdens at the end being the knowledge that he'll never be able to convince the WW that Sirius was innocent. Just as a little reminder to Harry and the readers that life isn't always fair, and, that, even if the good guys win, they can't necessarily right all the wrongs that have been done. Marianne From grahadh at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 00:58:18 2004 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (grahadh) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 00:58:18 -0000 Subject: Colonel Fubster In-Reply-To: <002101c3ec8a$75a5fbc0$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90347 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > Didn't JKR say that we would see someone older developing magical powers (or > something like that)? In which case maybe *Marge* shattered the glass? Oh > what a horrible thought - although Petunia and Vernon's reactions would be > amusing. Is Marge related to Petunia? Or Vernon? Thinking about the various > discussions on how wizards, muggles and squibs fit together genetically it > would be interesting if she was magical and was related to Petunia and Lily. > > K POA p.18 (US edition): "Aunt Marge was Uncle Vernon's sister. Even though she was not a blood relative of Harry's (whose mother had been Aunt Petunia's sister), he had been forced to call her "Aunt" all his life." That doesn't mean that she won't be the one to develop magical abilities, at this point all we can really do is speculate on that point, your guess is as goos as mine when it comes to that. -Dhyana From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 6 01:23:56 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:23:56 -0000 Subject: Colonel Fubster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: -Anyone ever wondered > whether old Colonel Fubster is going to pop up again? Colonel Fubster > is the old neighbour of aunt Marge who takes care of her dogs when > she is visiting her brother Vernon. This is what we know about him: > > Quote (from PoA, UK Ed): > > "'Who's looking after the dogs, Marge?' Uncle Vernon asked. > 'Oh, I've got Colonel Fubster managing them,' boomed Aunt > Marge. 'He's retired now, good for him to have something to do.'" (p. > 23) "K": I wonder if we are suppose to be noticing Marge, Colonel Fubster, and/or *Ripper*. ~~'Tea, Marge?' he said. 'And what will Ripper take?' 'Ripper can have some tea out of my saucer,' said Aunt Marge... 'But I couldn't leave poor old Ripper. He pines if he's away from me.' Ripper began to growl again as Harry sat down. This directed Aunt Marge's attention to Harry for the first time. "So!' she barked. poa/ch 2/pg 23/uk ~~He was nine and Ripper the bulldog was chasing him up a tree and the Dursleys were laughing below on the lawn... "Did you see everything I saw?" Harry asked, unsure whether he wanted to hear the answer. "Flashes of it," said Snape, his lip curling. "To whom did the dog belong?" "My Aunt Marge," Harry muttered, hating Snape. oop/ch 24/pg 535/us Wonder why Snape is interested in the dog owner? Or is he really interested in the dog? "K" From amani at charter.net Fri Feb 6 01:30:22 2004 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:30:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colonel Fubster References: <002101c3ec8a$75a5fbc0$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: <002501c3ec50$cb48f1c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90349 > Berit replies: > Thanks Taryn! That sort of killed my theory, yeah :-) What a shame; I > thought the shattering glass-clue was so neat... Of course I might > speculate that Rowling said that just to lure me off track... but no, > if that was the case she probably would have said "I'm not going to > answer that; you'll just have to wait and see"; her standard-answer > when she won't disclose too much. So I'm going to leave it. For now :- > ) > K Didn't JKR say that we would see someone older developing magical powers (or something like that)? In which case maybe *Marge* shattered the glass? Oh what a horrible thought - although Petunia and Vernon's reactions would be amusing. Is Marge related to Petunia? Or Vernon? Thinking about the various discussions on how wizards, muggles and squibs fit together genetically it would be interesting if she was magical and was related to Petunia and Lily. Taryn: She's Vernon's sister. "Aunt Marge was Uncle Vernon's sister. Even though she was not a blood relative of Harry's (whose mother had been Aunt Petunia's sister), he had been forced to call her "Aunt" all his life." [PoA American Paperback, pg. 18] ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 6 02:40:26 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 02:40:26 -0000 Subject: Who's really in charge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90350 "Bridget" wrote: > Hi all! I've been re-reading the series, paying special attention to > the parts where Harry is at the Dursleys', as it seems to me that > Harry thinks Vernon is in charge. Vernon is the one who punishes and > threatens him etc. But if you read closely, it's fairly obvious that > Petunia is the one making the rules, Vernon is just the one > enforcing them. We know Petunia knows more then she > let on to knowing can the same be said of Vernon? Any ideas, other > examples, and comments are much appreciated! Carol: I think that Vernon and Petunia are operating as a team in their suppression of Harry but with different motivations. I have no idea what's going to happen with the Dursleys in the next two books, but I think it's time for Petunia to level with Vernon and tell him what's really going on. He needs to understand that there's more at stake than concealing from the world that they have an "abnormal" nephew or connections with the WW he wants to believe does not exist. Bookworm: This thread really got me to stop and think about Vernon and Petunia as a couple. In the opening scene Bridget described (up thread), Vernon is thinking about Petunia's reaction. Bridget ascribed this to Petunia having the dominate role. Certainly she did after the dementors and the howler. But the quote Bridget gave when Vernon told Harry to listen to his aunt sounded more like tag-team parenting to me. Statements like that are often heard in our house: Father/Mother: "Get ready for bed." Daughter: (whine, excuses, stalling...) Father/Mother: "Get ready for bed, now." Daughter: (more stalling...) Mother/Father: "You heard what your Father/Mother said. You have 30 seconds to start running the bath." Daughter: (stomp, stomp...) (Did I mention she is a pre-teen? ) As Carol mentioned, Vernon and Petunia operate as a team. Sometimes one or the other takes the more prominent role, depending on the circumstances. In the scene where Petunia found out that Mrs. Figg has broken her leg and can't take Harry while the Dursleys take Dudley and Piers to the zoo, they are both making suggestions and objections to each other. In CoS, when they are getting ready for the Masons' arrival, Vernon is the one in charge of setting the stage. And when the letter from the Ministry arrived, it was Vernon who locked Harry in his room. >From our family's experience, when there are issues with the teachers, my husband usually steps back because I'm the one with experience working in the schools. So when magic is involved it seems that Vernon steps back and lets Petunia deal with it because of her family's history with magic. Unfortunately, while I agree with Carol that Petunia *should* tell Vernon what she knows, I don't think she will. Neither do I think that Vernon wants to know about it. IMO, the pattern of secrecy about anything dealing with magic will continue, at least for the near future, until Dudley is in danger again. Ravenclaw Bookworm From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 02:49:15 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 02:49:15 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyasriel2001" wrote: > Nymph wrote: > > I concur with the idea of DD being an unregistered animagus. > > I'm sure I read an interview with JKR where she said that there would > be no more unregistered animagi in the books. Has anyone else seen > that? Why does he have to be unregistered? As other people have said, > Hermione only looked at the animagi that century and Dumbledore would > have become one in the previous century. I haven't seen that interview, but we could all go to the Goat Pen (Mike Gray's interview site) to look for it. I only have trouble with the "previous century" thing because it really seems like such a loophole. Maybe Hermione did look at a list that was only those registered *this century,* but wouldn't you think any list of animagi would show anybody who's still living? I don't like escape clauses like that, but obviously that could be the answer. Whether DD is unregistered or not isn't important right now, except for how many people know it. Being able to become a bumblebee/wasp would be less valuable if Fudge or others knew it. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 6 03:38:30 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 03:38:30 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble (longer) In-Reply-To: <200006101755.59873.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90352 LizVega replied: Any way, I think it's something that he had not heard /thinked in years, that came out as a result of a stress situation ('DURSLEY', he boomed). Bookworm: What happens in those nine pages between `Mimblewimble' and Dudley's tail? Let's take a look: 1. Hagrid tells Harry his parents are famous. 2. Vernon forbids Hagrid to tell Harry anything. 3. Hagrid scolds Vernon for never telling Harry about his parents. 4. Hagrid tells Harry he is a wizard. 5. Hagrid gives Harry his letter. 6. "After A FEW MINUTES (my emphasis) he stammered, `What does it mean, they await my owl?'" 7. Hagrid pulls an owl out of his pocket, writes a letter to Dumbledore, "went to the door, and threw the owl out into the storm" 8. "Then he came back and sat down..." 9. Vernon told Hagrid that Harry isn't going to Hogwarts. 10. Hagrid calls Vernon a `great Muggle' then explains to Harry what Muggles are. 11. Vernon says they swore to stamp the magic out of Harry. 12. Petunia rants about her sister (for about ? of a page). 13. Harry yells at Petunia for lying about his parents' death. 14. Hagrid stumbles over telling Harry about Voldemort. It takes almost a full page for him to just get started ? lots of stammering and stuttering ? and two pages total to tell the story. 15. Vernon called the Potters weirdos. 16. Hagrid threatens Vernon with his umbrella. 17. Another half page about Voldemort. 18. Harry thought about how he could be a wizard when he had been kicked around his whole life. 19. Hagrid pointed out "Never mad things happen when you was scared or angry?" 20. More thinking about things in Harry's past. 21. Vernon and Hagrid argue over Harry going to Hogwarts. 22. Vernon called Dumbledore a Crackpot Old Fool. 23. Hagrid "thundered" at Vernon. "He brought the umbrella swishing down through the air to point at Dudley ? there was a flash of violet light, a sound like a firecracker, a sharp squeal, and the next second, Dudley was dancing on the spot with his hands clasped over his fat bottom, howling in pain. When he turned his back on them, Harry saw a curly pig's tail poking through a hole in his trousers. 24. Vernon pulls Dudley and Petunia into the other room. There is a fair amount of non-dialog time ? Harry reading the letter, thinking about it, thinking about being a wizard, Hagrid writing the note to Dumbledore, rolling it up to give to the owl, walking to the door, throwing the owl into the air, walking back to the sofa. I would think that this scene would take at least 10 minutes from the time Hagrid first "boomed" at Vernon, and the time Vernon insulted Dumbledore. If `mimblewimble' really is a protection charm, I wonder how long it would last? As I was typing the list I was thinking that `mimblewimble' couldn't have anything to do with Hagrid casting the spell on Dudley. But the one thing that struck me in going through this exercise is the actual spell. Hagrid is furious with VERNON for insulting Dumbledore, but he deliberately pointed his umbrella at DUDLEY. If he was angry with Vernon, why did he cast a spell on Dudley instead? He specifically said he meant to turn Dudley into a pig, so it wasn't an accident. Did Hagrid realize that Vernon was protected in some way? How clearly would he be thinking when he is in a rage like that? What does he know that we don't? Ravenclaw Bookworm From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 6 04:03:49 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 04:03:49 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD an animagus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90353 JuHu quoted: > >"We did Animagi in class with Professor McGonagall. >And I looked them up when I did my homework- the >Ministry of Magic keeps tabs on witches and wizards >who can become animals; there's a register showing >what animal they become, and their markings and things >. . . and I went and looked Professor McGonagall up on >the register, and there have been only seven Animagi >this century, and Pettigrew's name wasn't on the list- >" ("Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs" US p. 351) > Now, about this Dumbledore/Animagus thing, JKR said in her interview that there would be no more *unregistered* Animagi, right? And Hermione looked in the register and didn't see Dumbledore, right? Not necessarily. She said she didn't see Pettigrew's name, and that she did see McGonagall's. She says there are seven names on the list -- but doesn't tell us who the other six are. All we know is that none of them are Pettigrew (or James or Sirius). For all we know, Dumbledore is a *registered* Animagus, right there for anyone to see who wanted to look it up. And Hermione, who can certainly keep a secret, might not have mentioned it, either because she thinks it might be an important piece of information to have up her sleeve, or because Dumbledore or McGonagall asked her not to. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Let the advanced features & services of MSN Internet Software maximize your online time. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200363ave/direct/01/ From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 04:13:35 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 04:13:35 -0000 Subject: Colonel Fubster In-Reply-To: <002101c3ec8a$75a5fbc0$bcde6251@kathryn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90354 K wrote: Didn't JKR say that we would see someone older developing magical powers (or something like that)? In which case maybe *Marge* shattered the glass? Oh what a horrible thought - although Petunia and Vernon's reactions would be amusing. Is Marge related to Petunia? Or Vernon? Thinking about the various discussions on how wizards, muggles and squibs fit together genetically it would be interesting if she was magical and was related to Petunia and Lily. Carol: My thought in this scene was that Marge really did shatter the glass at Colonel Fubster's, which is why she didn't realize that Harry broke it this time. He got off lucky--until, of course, he "blew her up," which she could hardly take credit (or blame) for. I don't think we'll see more of Colonel Fubster (though I could be wrong, since his name was mentioned three times. Heck, we could even meet Petunia's friend Yvonne, who was vacationing in Majorca!) I very much doubt that the person who performs magic at a late age will be Marge, who in any ccase is Vernon's sister, not Petunia's--a thorough Muggle. My bet is still Mrs. Figg, who's a Squib and therefore has some sort of chance at becoming magical. She already sees Dementors and speaks to cats. Also, IIRC, JKR said the person would perform magic "late in life," and as far as I can tell, Marge, Vernon, Petunia, et al. are not much older than Lily would be if she were alive, say in their late thirties or early forties. That may sound late in life to someone Harry's age, but not to me. So again, my vote goes to Mrs. Figg. Carol, who can't believe how many typos she found in this post and hopes she caught them all From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 6 04:55:18 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 04:55:18 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble (longer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90355 big giant snip Hagrid is furious with VERNON for insulting > Dumbledore, but he deliberately pointed his umbrella at DUDLEY. If > he was angry with Vernon, why did he cast a spell on Dudley > instead? He specifically said he meant to turn Dudley into a pig, > so it wasn't an accident. > > Did Hagrid realize that Vernon was protected in some way? How > clearly would he be thinking when he is in a rage like that? What > does he know that we don't? > > Ravenclaw Bookworm Great post, I really would be disappointed it ANY person on Privet drive or related to the Dursleys in any way showed up with magic powers. It has always struck me as curious that Hagrid attacked Dudley. I think it could be one of two possibilities. Because Hagrid is not a fully trained wizard, Dudley, as a child, was easier to hex. Maybe even muggles are harder to hex as they get older. Or (and I tend to think this is more likely) Hagrid is aware of EXACTLY how awful Dudley has been to Harry because Dumbledore has watched Harry "more closely" than Harry ever knew. Perhaps DD shared some of the lowlights of Dudley's behavior with Hagrid before he went to get Harry. My thoughts, Sue From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 10:52:06 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 10:52:06 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" wrote: > For all we know, Dumbledore is a *registered* Animagus, right there for > anyone to see who wanted to look it up. And Hermione, who can certainly > keep a secret, might not have mentioned it, either because she thinks it > might be an important piece of information to have up her sleeve, or because > Dumbledore or McGonagall asked her not to. I like that explanation. It's the most plausible one to me. Hermione would absolutely keep a secret if asked. I never warmed up to the idea that Hermione looked up all the animagi registered *this century,* and didn't find him because DD was registered the century before - it seemed like such a loophole, and you'd think any list of animagi would include the ones *still living.* OTOH, there are hypotheses that could explain why DD didn't register or that his registration was a State secret: ** DD didn't register for the same reason Rita Skeeter didn't, although his motives were purer: he gathered intelligence this way on LV, and Grindenwald before him. ** He did register, but the Minister at the time (not Fudge) agreed to keep it secret. Fudge may not even know, which at the time of OoP would have been a good thing. There's no evidence for any of it, but it seems to make sense. Jim Ferer From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Feb 6 12:34:51 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 12:34:51 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Animagi, and animals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90357 There's something I wondered about in connection with this debate about Dumbledore being an Animagus. Ages ago, before OOP I was trying to think through the role of animals in POA, because they are quite prominent there. Not only is there the whole Animagus and Lupin as werewolf thing, but also we have the way Crookshanks and Scabbers function as surrogates for Hermione and Ron's relationship. And we start the Care of Magical Creatures lessons. This led me to set up the following approximate correspondences between the characters and animals: Harry - deer (Patronus) Ron - Scabbers (later, Pigwidgeon, pets) Hermione - Crookshanks (pet) Sirius - dog (Padfoot, Animagus form) Lupin - wolf (transformation) Pettigrew - rat (Animagus form) James - deer (Animagus form) McGonagall - cat (Animagus form) Dumbledore - Phoenix (pet?) Voldemort - snake (pet, but also now the OOP manifestation) Neville - toad (pet) Snape - ?? some will want to insert 'bat' Hagrid - special case, see below What I started to hypothesise was that, more or less, either you get a pet or an Animagus form but not both. Post-OOP we may be able to say that the Patronus is less part of this set-up and assign Harry - Hedwig; allowing owls brings Percy and Draco neatly in. However, Lupin did assign some significance to Harry's Patronus form at the end of POA. I don't think that pets and Animagus forms are mutually exclusive things in terms of magical capability. I see it more as a question of the symbolism employed to illustrate aspects of the characters. In effect, the literary space taken up by a potential Animagus form for Dumbledore is already occupied by Fawkes. There are undoubted problems with all this: Sirius gets Buckbeak later; what is Hedwig's role (and Hermes and Draco's eagle owl)? But there are things I like, too. To me, it's no accident that animal correspondences for Snape are fugitive or suppressed (think of those things in jars): it's part of his mystery. That Fred and George associate so closely that there is no room for pets also says something. Whether the lack of an animal association for Ginny can be connected to her generally late character development is more questionable. In OOP, Luna's association with invisible animals is suggestive: as elusive as the Crumple-Horned Snorkak yet as real as the Thestral. I also like that Harry's link to Voldemort includes Parseltongue. I like that Ron changes from Scabbers to Pigwidgeon, foreshadowing his eventual self-acceptance as a more mercurial person than the laid-back image of a somnolent rat. But I think Hagrid is very interesting in this regard. Up to the end of GOF, as well as Fang, he gets a *different* animal in each book: Norbert; Aragog; Buckbeak; Blast-ended Skrewts. There is a very deep mystery about Hagrid: right at the beginning of the series its moral anchor, Dumbledore, characterises him for us with the phrase 'I would trust Hagrid with my life', and from that moment on JKR flaunts his unreliability, instability, even incompetence. I see his animal associations reflecting this: Fang is the fixed point, while all the others are his mutability. And what are we to make of his OOP 'animal': Grawp? I do have some thoughts about that, but it's a whole separate post. There's also the question of Fluffy's role, which is clearly symbolic but perhaps not of Hagrid's *character* development as such. And there's the question of the meaning of Hagrid's status as the 'Mr Animals' of the series. So, in terms of the immediate debate about Dumbledore, I'm inclined to reject the hypothesis that he's an Animagus. David From anuchillinz22 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 03:39:23 2004 From: anuchillinz22 at yahoo.com (anuchillinz22) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 03:39:23 -0000 Subject: Seamus- Good or Bad? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90358 Hi, I'm new. My name is Kat. I've been reading the posts a little before I said something because I didn't want to repeat anything. I saw in the Photo Albums under "Harry Potter and Me" the school list, and I apologize if this was mentioned before, but it seemed to me by the symbols Rowling's put beside the names, Seamus seems to me like the only non-Slytherin with a filled in square next to his name along with the likes of Crabbe and Goyle, which leads me to think that maybe Seamus might become bad in some way. Once again, I apologize if this was mentioned before as I'm fairly new, and I just wanted to give my input. I love the discussions so far. From robersondd at comcast.net Thu Feb 5 01:02:56 2004 From: robersondd at comcast.net (Debbie Roberson) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 01:02:56 -0000 Subject: Why SPEW will never work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90359 tiger_queen429 wrote: > Then, when I read OoP, I really started to dislike > Hermione and where she was taking SPEW. This is when > I began to realize that SPEW would never work out, > at least not in the time frame of these books. Debbie adds: I haven't gone back to the other threads regarding SPEW, so this point has likely been brought up before, please bear with me if it has. But it seems to me that the WW has subjugated in some way, shape or form all of the intelligent magical creatures at some point in the history of the wizarding world (references to various wars from Histor classes, etc) throughout the books have given some vague references as I recall. I suspect that those Wizards-of-old acted out of fear intitially rather that a sense of superiority - Dobby showed us first hand that house-elves are a force to be reconed with. The wizarding world is lucky that they are so inclined to "domestication." I can't help but wonder what they were like before whatever agreement led to their current "servitude." I rather suspect we will find out in the coming books. Debbie From aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 07:07:26 2004 From: aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com (aaoconnor2002) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 07:07:26 -0000 Subject: Agnes (was Re: Snape's mother) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90360 Berit wrote: > Quote: "Two beds along was a woman whose entire > head was covered in fur; Harry remembered something > similar happening to Hermione during their second > year, although fortunately the damage, in her case, > had not been permanent. ... > 'Here you are, Agnes,' said the Healer brightly to the > furry-faced woman, handing her a small pile of Christmas > presents. 'See, not forgotten, are you? And your son's > sent an owl to say he's visiting tonight, so that's nice, > isn't it?' > Agnes gave several loud barks." (OoP p. 452 UK Ed). > > I can't help being suspicious when Rowling reveals small details > about new, seemingly insignificant characters. Now me (Audrey): One thing about this passage puzzles me. The healer hands Agnes a pile of presents but *tells* her that her son sent an owl and will be visiting. Now either Agnes can't read or the owl was addressed to the staff and not to Agnes. If the former is the case then I really don't have anywhere to go with this post, but assume, for discussion's sake, the latter is correct. Why would someone write to the hospital where their mother is a patient and inform the staff that they will be visiting later? Perhaps this son needs some special assistance on arrival. Perhaps this son can't enter a magical building without help. Perhaps this son is a squib. Now who do we know who is a squib, has access to owls, has an affinity for furry creatures that might or might not be what they seem to be, and spends most of his time far enough from London that he can't visit regularly? Agnes - Argus, not much of a stretch to my imagination. Thoughts? Comments? Audrey (who wondered while writing this what you call the non-magical offspring of a mixed, Muggle/Magic couple? Would they be Muggles or Squibs?) From john_the_walker82 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 5 12:56:37 2004 From: john_the_walker82 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?John=20Walker?=) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:56:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Arthur and Lucius (Was Re: Weasleys on the Tapestry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040205125637.77395.qmail@web25205.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90361 Chelle wrote: > There were burns on the tapestry to signify the > disowning of recent family members, but there wasn't > even a MENTION of the Weasleys. At all. Even though > Sirius says Arthur and Molly are both related to him > although distantly, NONE of their line is on the tapestry. > > Whatever happened with the Weasleys must have happened WAY before > Arthur and Molly. > > I want to know what happened, darn it! I want to know why it is that Arthur Weasley and and Lucius Malfoy hate each other so much, even before the Chamber of Secrets incident. Obviously their views clash, but there seems to be a deep personal animosity over and above that. John From armadillof at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 17:52:49 2004 From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:52:49 -0000 Subject: Great Uncle Algie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90362 > > Julie -- who really really really wants to know what is up with the > gum wrappers! I just thought JK was making a point of Neville's psyche and how sad his life has been. I don't think there's much to the gum wrappers otherwise, I mean Neville's parents are certifiably insane. If you've ever been in contact with people who have lost their minds due to alzheimer's, strokes, or other degenerative neurological diseases, that type of act (giving someone something relatively 'useless') is often commonplace. I just thought it had personal meaning to Neville b/c it was likely one of the only things or types of things his parents gave him that is tangible. AF From mangochee at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 21:51:18 2004 From: mangochee at yahoo.com (mangochee) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 21:51:18 -0000 Subject: Colonel Fubster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90363 Berit wrote: > Many of us believe we're going to meet Mark Evans again in book 6, > revealed as a wizard and enrolled at Hogwarts. -Anyone ever wondered > whether old Colonel Fubster is going to pop up again? Colonel Fubster > is the old neighbour of aunt Marge who takes care of her dogs when > she is visiting her brother Vernon. This is what we know about him: I thought about that too, but I recently found out that in a Barnes & Noble chat JKR said that he's a Muggle. Question: In Prisoner of Azkaban, a character by the name of Colonel Fubster was mentioned. Is he a wizard? JKR: No, he's a Muggle neighbour of Aunt Marge's. (Poor man!) You can find the rest of the chat here: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/archive/Oct00_LiveChat_Barne sNoble.htm From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 19:34:19 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 19:34:19 -0000 Subject: How many people know the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90364 Aditya wrote: Well, that would be true supposing that Neville's granny is aware of the prophecy. Not just that the prophecy exists but that also it's contents. And that Neville could be targeted. So far, there has been no clear indication in the books that anyone apart from Dumbledore and now, Harry knows the prophecy. Yeah, it is true that it looked like the members of the Order of Phoenix know that there is a prophecy as do the Death Eaters but I wonder how many people know it in it's entriety? Also if, the Order knows that Voldemort is after Harry because he is supposed to kill Voldemort, then how can they be ever so complacent about keeping Harry in the dark? Hitomi: Ohayo minna! Personally, unless given more information, I've always assumed only DD, and now Harry, know of the full prophecy. We know LV knows part of it, and we know the DE's know, if what Lucius said to Harry in the Prophecy Room is any indication, but I don't think the Order knows. For an example, after Arthur was attacked, and the kids were using the Extendable Ears in St. Mungo's, Moody says something along the lines of "Well, yeah, we know there something's odd about about the Potter boy, no denying that." And Molly, when Sirius wants to tell Harry what's been going on in the beginning, blatantly refuses to tell him anything, because DD said not to tell Harry anything he doesn't absolutely need to know. She doesn't know why DD gave them these instructions, though. We find out at the end, of course, but I don't DD ever told anyone of the prophecy. I think he's probably been living with that burden for the last sixteen years. Besides, McGonagall and apparently everyone else were clueless at the beginning of Book 1. Also, DD probably didn't tell the Potters or Longbottoms. He had Snape as a spy, and either Snape, or something else, tipped him off that LV was going after the Potters. We know that from Book 1, because Lily and James had to go into hiding in the first place, because LV was after them. DD was just probably waiting to see who LV would go after first, because he would have known it could have only been the Longbottoms' or Potters' son, Lily and Mrs. Longbottom would have had to have been pregnant at the time Trelawney gave the prophecy (summer of a little over sixteen years ago, and Harry and Neville turn sixteen in a month). I try to look at hearing the prophecy from DD's POV, and besides the fact it probably seemed a Godsend, he couldn't have known what "marking as his equal" meant. We could've guessed LV would have to choose between the boys, and he would have know LV would go after whomever he thought "the One" to be, since LV was given knowledge of such a prophecy, and that would suddenly be his main threat. And so, he goes after the Potters. DD has assumed, as we are led to, that that designates Harry as "the One." He fulfills the prophecy, there would have been no need to tell the Longbottoms or Gran. Especially since LV pretty much ignores Neville's existence. He always concentrates on Harry (for obvious reasons). Neville isn't in anymore danger than say, Luna Lovegood. So, in summation, I don't think DD has told anyone, except for Harry. And the people who keep the Prophecy Room might know, too. I don't think it really matters, though, because Harry will tell Ron and Hermione eventually, and everyone will have to know. Besides which, if I were Harry, and they didn't let me into the Order next year, I would be rather miffed. Considering he has more clause to be in it than anyone, besides perhaps DD. Just my thoughts, at any rate. Oh, and I have a theory on Harry and Neville. I don't think Neville is "the One," wouldn't make as much sense, but has anyone read the "Alvin Maker" series by Card? It's an American fantasy series, and Alvin is the seventh son of a seventh son, making him "the One" of this series. But his little brother, Calvin (yes, I know, redundant), is the eighth son, obviously, but the first son was dead at the time of his birth, so Calvin is sort of a seventh son of a seventh son, but really the eighth. Anyway, it has given him powers similar to his older brother, but not on the same level. Maybe that is how Neville will be (without Calvin's personality, ugh). Just something to think about. 'Kay I'm done :) ~ Hitomi, who like Julie, wants to know what is up with the gum wrappers, and how many Neville has From allisongrannis at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 23:27:01 2004 From: allisongrannis at yahoo.com (allison grannis) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 23:27:01 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90365 In my opinion, and I have read these books almost religiously, the fact that Dumbledore taught transfiguration does not necessarily mean that he was an animagus. As stated throughout the books, just because a wizard has the ability of certain powers, does not mean that he would use them. And besides that, let's look to the OOTP to the part where Umbridge thinks she has 'busted' Harry about the D.A. If Dumbledore was an animagus, why not just transfigure then, instead of using Fawkes? From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 13:22:09 2004 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 05:22:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4218 In-Reply-To: <1076036920.8434.79497.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040206132209.69621.qmail@web10003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90366 Message: 19 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 02:40:26 -0000 From: "scoutmom21113" Subject: Re: Who's really in charge? I for one would be very dissappointed to find out Vernon's family was any way connected to magic. He is the only Dursley who's thoughts we have seen. In PS/SS he is without a clue to the identity of the wizards gathering in his area. He sees them as strange and odd but doesn't connet the dots until he hears the Potter name. If he turns out magical he it should be a surprise to him as well as his family. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Feb 6 13:22:19 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 13:22:19 -0000 Subject: The meanings of the titles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90367 Continuing the thread Amy Z raised a few days ago about titles. Do the titles of the books have a significance beyond the obvious? The old Stoned!Harry theory (described at http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#ps ) suggests that the Philosopher's Stone is a metaphor for Harry himself. He is the thing that defeats the death of the wizarding world. Harry is held back by his Dementor-induced memories in POA, and people have commented before on the parallels between Sirius' and Harry's position at the beginning of the book. He eventually frees himself with his Patronus. Is the goblet of fire the one with the names coming out of it, or the one that Voldemort himself emerges from in his evil sacrament ('flesh of the servant, willingly given')? (Question: was 'Doomspell Tournament' a working title or the one originally intended but changed because of a leak?) In the story, Harry's name comes out of the goblet and, much later, Voldemort is reborn; in the wider story arc, as Voldemort rises again from his submerged life, so Harry rises as the champion to counter him. This are the easy ones. I see a parallel between the Chamber and Harry's own heart, partly via the religious references to the Mosaic tabernacle which is surely a pattern for the individual's heart journey into the presence of God. However, it's less clear to me that this is what the book is 'about'. In a sense Tom's diary is a chamber of secrets, too - at least it is what contains the secrets that are most important in the context of the story arc as a whole. The Order of the Phoenix I have more trouble with. I can't see a convincing meaning beyond the surface one. There is a latent theme of unity (think of the Sorting Hat's song) even though it is mostly worked out through examples of disunity and disconnection. One could argue that by 'ignoring' Harry over the year Dumbledore has handed over leadership of the fellowship of the good to Harry, nucleated in the six who visit the MOM and extended in the DA. I dunno. Any thoughts? Is there a series of double meanings in the titles? If so, does it point to anything? Religion? David From charlot7542 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 03:53:33 2004 From: charlot7542 at yahoo.com (charlot7542) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 03:53:33 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90368 Kneasy wrote: > IMO too many posters are under-estimating Snape and just > looking at him from Harry's point of view. That's too simplistic; > he is by far the most complex character in the series and to > dismiss him as a mindless bully is a mistake. Now Charlotte (sorry had to butt into the conversation) I certainly don't think Snape is a mindless bully. He is an incredibly complicated character, but you can't get past the fact that he is a bully nevertheless. Don't get me wrong - I love Snape and I do think that he was treated absolutely terribly by James and Sirius if that one scene in the pensieve is anything to go by. But the fact of the matter is that he has never been able to get past those childhood experiences and indeed continues to behave in a very childish way by taking out his grudge on the son of James. As someone in a position of authority at a place of education no less, he really should know better - the way he behaves is an example for those children in his care. Kneasy: > We know that he is playing a double or even a triple game. > He's an important member of the Order, possibly the only one > able to get information directly from the DEs, meanwhile > maintaining friendly contacts with his old chums without raising > their suspicions. DD trusts him absolutely and Harry does not have > a clue what Snape is really up to. Harry is little more than an > ignorant child commenting on a very dangerous game being played > by experienced adults and thinking he knows best. > Meanwhile Snape keeps on walking his tightrope; one false step and > he could, quite literally, be dead. He taunts Harry and Neville in > class yet he's the one who's around to surreptitiously save Harry's > neck. And Charlotte Yes, I do believe that he is playing a very dangerous game and at great personal risk, but there's a difference between his activities as a member of the Order, which relate to his ideological beliefs, and personal gripes and hurt pride. Even if he feels that he has to maintain a front when teaching Malfoy and the other children of death eaters in potions class, you can't tell me that Snape doesn't enjoy tormenting Harry. In his head I have no doubt that Snape equates Harry with James - he as much as tells him that he's getting arrogant like his father at one point. It must really irk him that the son of his hated rival is such a celebrated and important person. And now in the classroom situation he has James's substitute in a place where he wields the authority. It's not like he's not going to use this advantage. It's a way that he can take out his childhood frustrations and still justify it to himself. And of course, don't forget that Snape continues to treat Harry with complete disdain even when they are alone together - like in their Occlumency lessons. I agree that Harry can be headstrong and make mistakes, but what about Severus refusing to teach him Occlumency even though he must have realised how important it was. This was for purely personal reasons - Harry saw one of Snape's worst memories and Sev was embarrassed. He couldn't bear that Harry had personal ammunition against him and knowing nothing about Harry's character because he has never taken the time to separate him form the memory of his father, he assumed that Harry would use this against him. In actual fact, Harry was horrified and perhaps for the first time understood why Snape behaves as he does. Kneasy: > How does Harry behave towards him? And why does Harry act that way? > Pure adolescent pique. Harry wants what Harry wants and any curb or > restriction is a personal affront. He knows that Snape is important > to the Order, he knows that DD trusts Snape, he knows Snape has saved > his neck, potentially on more than one occasion, yet he persists in > seeing everything in terms of his own feelings. Snape is wrong, Snape > is bad. Charlotte In fact they both willfully misunderstand each other. I agree its easy for Harry to blame Snape for everything, but Snape's attitude invites this. Harry is gradually having to re-evaluate his feelings towards Snape as he learns more, but its going to take a while. At the end of OTP when Harry blames Snape for the death of Sirius its completely understandable - he's coming from a position of hurt and not wanting to blame himself and certainly not Sirius for rashness he lashes out at the most convenient scapegoat. I'm sure in his heart of hearts that he doesn't really believe this. He hasn't forgotten that Snape is working for the order and that DD trusts him. Actually Ron's always the one to jump on the "Snape is bad" bandwagon. Kneasy: > It's about time he grew up. Charlotte: Agreed that Harry's going to have to control his temper and rashness, but remember he's only 15 years old and (literally) has the weight of the world on his shoulders - this is not normal teen- angst. Sure it wouldn't hurt for him to see things from Snape's point of view, but your asking something from a teenager that Snape, a man close to 40 has never demonstrated. A little mutual understanding would go a long way. Charlotte. From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 6 05:45:36 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 05:45:36 -0000 Subject: What's in the Chamber of Secrets that will come up later? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90369 I had read that JKR says that there is something in the Chamber of Secrets that will play an important part in the books to come. That has me on my path again of wondering what is in there? Is it that there is something about the Chamber itself or in the book? I reread the part about the Chamber, and the only things that seemed to stand out were the 2 intwined snakes at the entrance that had emerald eyes and seemed to be alive. Also, the huge statue of Slytherin and the basilisk coming out of his mouth. Any ideas? Sawsan From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 6 05:50:00 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 05:50:00 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90370 This motto has always been funny to me. I thought it was supposed to be be funny until recently when I started to take everything in the HP series seriously. SO, does anyone think that this will have an important role in the book? Does anyone think that someone has been tickling a sleeping dragon, and that's the cause of all the meyhem and Lord Voldie, etc? Thanks. Sawsan From delphislash at yahoo.ca Fri Feb 6 04:09:13 2004 From: delphislash at yahoo.ca (delphislash) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 04:09:13 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90371 > JuHu quoted: > > > >"We did Animagi in class with Professor McGonagall. > >And I looked them up when I did my homework- the > >Ministry of Magic keeps tabs on witches and wizards > >who can become animals; there's a register showing > >what animal they become, and their markings and things > >. . . and I went and looked Professor McGonagall up on > >the register, and there have been only seven Animagi > >this century, and Pettigrew's name wasn't on the list- > >" ("Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs" US p. 351) Of course, the phrase "this century" might be telling. Perhaps if Dumbledore became an Animagus before middle-age, he would be on a different listing - that of *last* century. JKR is quite good at slipping in little loopholes like that :-) -Delphi From CoyotesChild at charter.net Fri Feb 6 13:49:18 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 07:49:18 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Agnes (was Re: Snape's mother) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c3ecb8$08d85a00$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 90372 > > Now me (Audrey): > Why would someone write to the hospital where their mother is a > patient and inform the staff that they will be visiting later? > Perhaps this son needs some special assistance on arrival. Perhaps > this son can't enter a magical building without help. Perhaps this > son is a squib. Iggy here: Or, since Agnes barks like a dog and looks like one (for the most part), she has some of the instincts of a dog and would chase the owl around the room instead of trying to get the letter. (Ever see a playful or aggressive dog react to a flock of birds? Especially larger birds...) He may have sent the owl to the staff for the safety of the owl itself. Iggy McSnurd From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 6 06:07:26 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 06:07:26 -0000 Subject: Colonel Fubster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90373 >Carol wrote: > Also, IIRC, JKR said the person would perform magic "late in life," > and as far as I can tell, Marge, Vernon, Petunia, et al. are not much > older than Lily would be if she were alive, say in their late thirties > or early forties. That may sound late in life to someone Harry's age, > but not to me. So again, my vote goes to Mrs. Figg. > Sawsan here: I am with you about Vernon, Petunia, and Marge not being that old; but perhaps since most wizards and witches develop magic at a really young age, it would be considered pretty late for them to develop them as 30 or 40 year olds. Just a thought. From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 6 06:16:52 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 06:16:52 -0000 Subject: Who's really in charge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90374 Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote: > As Carol mentioned, Vernon and Petunia operate as a team. Sometimes > one or the other takes the more prominent role, depending on the > circumstances. In the scene where Petunia found out that Mrs. Figg > has broken her leg and can't take Harry while the Dursleys take > Dudley and Piers to the zoo, they are both making suggestions and > objections to each other. In CoS, when they are getting ready for > the Masons' arrival, Vernon is the one in charge of setting the > stage. And when the letter from the Ministry arrived, it was Vernon > who locked Harry in his room. Sawsan here: I dont know about Vernon and Petunia, I agree about Petunia wearing the pants in the family. Vernon almost seems to fear her reaction if he were to mention Harry at the beginning of PS/SS. I think she is definitely the one in charge. That's why I hope to see her become a witch, perhaps that fire she has got in her will be put out, and she would have to come to terms with being a "freak" and then finally realize that it wasn't all that bad after all. IF she does develop powers, then we will see who is in charge; because if it is Vernon, he will probably either divorce her or treat her badly for a while after recovering from shock and a possible hernia. If it is Petunia, I can imagine her acting as if she were sick and Vernon would be pampering her while loathing Harry even moreso because(perhaps in Vernon's eyes) Harry infected her with his abnormality. Sawsan, who thinks her posts are definitely becoming Quibbler worthy. From CoyotesChild at charter.net Fri Feb 6 13:57:32 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 07:57:32 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthur and Lucius (Was Re: Weasleys on the Tapestry) In-Reply-To: <20040205125637.77395.qmail@web25205.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301c3ecb9$2db13940$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 90375 > > I want to know why it is that Arthur Weasley and and Lucius Malfoy hate > each other so much, even before the Chamber of Secrets incident. Obviously > their views clash, but there seems to be a deep personal animosity over > and above that. > > > John > Iggy here: It seems that they are close enough in age that their animosity would have started back in school. Also, while we may have seen the Black family tree, we haven't seen the one for the Malfoy family. For all we know, Arthur and Lucius are first cousins or something, and we all know their respective feelings towards Muggles. (And then there's the really fun one... Like Snape possibly having been in love with Lilly, Lucius may have been in love with Molly. *grin*) Iggy McSnurd (Who wonders what Draco and the Weasley kids would have been like if Molly and Narcissa had switched husbands.) From rredordead at aol.com Fri Feb 6 15:55:50 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 15:55:50 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow Playback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90376 > Julie wrote: > The question I have is this: Is the person standing to LV's > shoulder movie contamination or is there canon evidence for someone else being there? Mandy here: This is no canon evidence of anyone else at the Godrick's Hollow scene, but it is such a tantalizing thought. We all want to know what happened so desperately, and as Harry and LV are not reliable sources, we want a third part witness/accomplice to reveal all. I know I do. ;-) The figure in the film could be movie contamination, but we also know that JKR was heavily involved in the filming of that scene, or at least involved in the writing of it. So it is possible it could be factually correct, and perhaps JKR decided to pull the image at the last minute in fear that it would give too much away. If this decision was made after filming it might have been too late to remove the images filmed, it is very expensive to go back a re-shoot a scene. Or, it could be a genuine mistake, over enthusiasm by the director and when JKR saw it she wanted it removed. I don't imagine we will find out until the last book is not only written but filmed as well. Personally I believe there has to be a spectator, someone to retell the story to Harry (and us) in Book 7. Accomplice or witness I don't know. I've thought it could be Snape, but I've also thought it could have been one of the Longbottoms arriving just too late to be of any help and in their panic, believing Harry to be dead, rush back home to save Neville. I've also thought it could have been Remus, although I'm not convinced by the ESE/Lupin theory, it would make a great twist. Cheers Mandy From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 16:05:25 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 16:05:25 -0000 Subject: The meanings of the titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > > Do the titles of the books have a significance beyond the obvious? > > The old Stoned!Harry theory (described at > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#ps ) suggests that > the Philosopher's Stone is a metaphor for Harry himself. He is the > thing that defeats the death of the wizarding world. Annemehr: I do love this theory! Glad you brought it up! David: > The Order of the Phoenix I have more trouble with. I can't see a > convincing meaning beyond the surface one. There is a latent theme > of unity (think of the Sorting Hat's song) even though it is mostly > worked out through examples of disunity and disconnection. One > could argue that by 'ignoring' Harry over the year Dumbledore has > handed over leadership of the fellowship of the good to Harry, > nucleated in the six who visit the MOM and extended in the DA. I > dunno. Annemehr: Oh, I like this post! And yes, I think I have an underlying meaning for the title. First of all, I just want to point out that when we are talking about the symbolism of the phoenix, we have to remember that there are two aspects to the creature: its manner of death and rebirth (which people easily remember, it seems), and also its attributes of courage and loyalty which it can confer to the pure of heart through its song while striking fear into the hearts of the evil. I think the Order of the Phoenix itself is so named mostly for the hope that its members would be courageous and loyal and remain on the side of the light. This probably reflects the surface meaning of the book title. To go even deeper, though, I think the death of a phoenix by fire and its rebirth from the ashes relates very closely to what Harry has just gone through beginning in the graveyard of GoF and right through his fifth year. He lived through the "fire" all year, which was miserable for him, and which culminated in the soul-crushing loss of Sirius and revelation of the prophecy. In his meditation by the lake we find he has been reduced to "ashes," and in his meeting with Luna and his reaction to the Kings Cross sendoff I believe we see our first glimpse of the "tiny, wrinkled newborn" phoenix chick -- the beginning of the new Harry. The descriptions of the immediate pre- and post-burning Fawkes in CoS note that he was very ugly (as many people complain of Harry's attitude and temper in OoP), yet the mature bird is very beautiful. There is also a parallel with alchemy, I believe. More knowledgeable people can correct me if needed, but I remember reading that in the alchemical process, the base materials you begin with must be completely *broken down* into their simplest, most elemental forms -- almost destroyed -- before they can be reconstituted into their highest, purest form, so: Base metal --> Breaking down --> Lowest Form --> Reconstitution --> Pure Form (Alchemy, to the best of my memory) Old Phoenix --> Fire --> Ashes --> Chick --> Mature Phoenix Original Harry --> OoP Experiences --> Despair by Lake --> Luna, Kings Cross --> New Harry (in future books) David: > Any thoughts? Is there a series of double meanings in the titles? > If so, does it point to anything? Religion? Annemehr: Your post also reminds me of something Iris posted some time ago, which complements what you've said very well. In her post (message #46992) she writes how she found that the seven obstacles Harry faced on the way to the philosopher's stone in PS/SS seem to parallel main ideas in each of the seven books. For instance, first was Fluffy the three-headed dog, which seems to parallel the formation of HRH's friendship, the three into one committed unit. Second was Devil's Snare (a snakey plant) down the trapdoor, which parallels Harry going *down* into the Chamber of Secrets and encountering the basilisk. It goes on very convincingly -- I recommend reading it all. It's also interesting to try to predict books six and seven likewise. Iris, if she's reading this, may have more to add, and those more knowledgeable about alchemy may have to correct me somewhat, though I think I have the basic idea right. Does any of this point to anything? I think studying the titles as you have can certainly help us perceive the main themes of the books, for instance that (IMO) OoP was maybe more about the "remaking" of Harry than it was about what was hidden in the DoM. I think everything you, Iris, and I have said makes it obvious that this is a very well-thought-out story indeed, where JKR has amalgamated much folklore and history, alchemy, and ideas from her own Christian religion into an extremely rich whole. It is so rich, in fact, that it makes it very difficult to pick out what are the central relationships and symbols from what may just be conicidental. It has us looking up the meanings of flowers and trees, astrology and star names, alchemical symbols, classical mythology and local folklore, runes, numerology, second meanings of names, Christian symbolism, literary references (Shakespeare, Gouge, ), and more I'm sure, as well as searching out parallels between different parts of the story itself (e.g. Grindelwald <--> Voldemort, Marauders <--> HRH). A very good children's story indeed! I'm looking forward to seeing how JKR weaves everything together in the end. Annemehr who went on surprisingly longer than expected From rredordead at aol.com Fri Feb 6 16:26:25 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 16:26:25 -0000 Subject: From Black to White (was Peter...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90378 > Carol wrote: > Although I agree with you that Sirius's name needs to be cleared to > resolve all the loose ends of the story, I think that's going to be > extremely difficult. As you say, Wormtail is the key. If the > Wizengamot sees that he's alive, then Sirius is at least innocent of his murder. It may be more difficult to prove that he didn't kill the twelve Muggles (or betray Lily and James, if that matters to the WG). > > Proving that he's dead will be even more difficult. Whatever the > significance of the Veil in terms of symbolism and so forth, the >fact remains that it simply absorbed Sirius. There's no body, no >proof that he died fighting Bellatrix, no proof that he was present >in the Battle in the DoM. Fudge, who shows up at the end, sees >Dumbledore and Harry but no one else on the good side. He has only >Dumbledore's word for what happened, and we don't know exactly how >much DD thinks he needs to know ("the important points of what has >happened here tonight," as DD puts it, OoP 818, Am. ed.). Even if DD tells Fudge what happened to Sirius, is he, with his penchant for denial, likely to believe that Sirius was in that battle and that he's fallen through the Veil? Will anyone else believe it? Only the Aurors Fudge brings with him witness anything, and all they see is Harry, DD, LV, Bellatrix, a group of stunned and bound DEs, and a lot of rubble. (I'm not sure what happens to the other children, but the Order members have almost certainly apparated before the Aurors arrive in the DoM.) > > My point is, I don't see any way to prove the story of Sirius's > falling through--unless DD puts Harry's memory of the battle in the > Pensieve and shows it to Fudge. I'm not even sure that would > constitute proof to him, or to anyone else whose opinion matters. I > also don't think that DD would do that, because he still needs to keep the identities of the Order members secret. (The names of the > arrrested DEs were published, but not the full story of the Battle of the DoM and its participants.) So even if Sirius's name is cleared, I don't see how, without a body or testimony from anyone except DD, the DEs, and a group of children, his death is going to be proved. Mandy here: You cover it very well. I'm sure you haven't over looked this, but I wanted to also add that the whole of the WW, except the Order, believes, 100%, that Sirius is be on the side of LV. They possibly even believe he is a Death Eater. It says in one of the books, PoA I think, that Sirius was believed to be LV's right hand man and ready to take over if LV ever fell from power. Even in OotP when the DE escape from Azkaban, the Daily Profit reports that it is believed that Black it their rallying point. So, even if it can be proved that Black is dead, which it nigh impossible as Carol clearly points out above, how can DD convince Fudge and the WW that he was really fighting on the good side? The only evidence is Peter himself, as pointed out above, and he is conveniently MIA. The only people to have seen Peter alive are either friends of Siruirs or his Godson Harry's friends. Not exactly impartial testimony. I think it's going to be a very difficult struggle indeed. Look at Molly's instincts around Black, despite being told by everyone she loves of Blacks innocence, she is still prejudiced against him where Harry is concerned. The belief that a man is a mass murdering, evil Death Eater for 13 years is not easy to let go of. Especially without any evidence. Not to mention clearing Blacks name it going to be the last thing on the MoM and DD's list of things to do. What with LV back and a war on the horizon, clearing the name of a mass murder, who is 'allegedly' dead, with no living immediate family is not going to be a top priority. Harry is Sirius' only hope, and I believe he is going to channel a lot of his anger in to clearing Sirius name eventually, but for now he's got a lot on his plate to deal with. Cheers Mandy From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Feb 6 17:08:32 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:08:32 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Animagi, and animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90379 David: > What I started to hypothesise was that, more or less, either you >get a pet or an Animagus form but not both. Hmmmm. Hermione gets an otter patronus as well as her cat, Crookshanks.Sirius has both Buckbeak and an animal form. Dumbledore has Fawkes, and is connected to the bumblebee by his name if nothing else. I think the animal companions and counterparts may represent a desire or ability that's being repressed. The more developed characters have more than one animal because they are more complex. Harry the snake: his connection with Voldemort the deer : memories of his father the owl: knowledge (all those questions Harry doesn't let himself think of, much less ask.) Sirius hippogriff: escape dog form: uncomplicated emotions Hermione otter patronus: playfullness Crookshanks: aggression Dumbledore Phoenix: immortality Bumblebee: sting, ie, exercising those powers he is too noble to use Pippin From rredordead at aol.com Fri Feb 6 17:07:31 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:07:31 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Lucius (Was Re: Weasleys on the Tapestry) In-Reply-To: <000301c3ecb9$2db13940$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90380 > > John wrote: > I want to know why it is that Arthur Weasley and and Lucius Malfoy > hate each other so much, even before the Chamber of Secrets incident. Obviously their views clash, but there seems to be a deep personal animosity over and above that. Mandy here: We don't yet know of their history, and most likely won't find out unless it involved Harry, unfortunately, as Arthur and Lucius are two of my favorites. But I think it is simply, status and class. It is difficult for a non Brit to truly understand the ramifications of class and status and the importance of blood. (I don't know if either of you are British or not, so forgive me if I'm talking basics to you both.) But I will attempt to summarize what I believe to be the case. ;-) Lucius and Arthur both live in two different classes, they may both may be pure blooded, but that makes no difference. It is like saying to a member of a white supremacist group that a non-white person is still a human being, they can't accept it, it is beyond their comprehension. Lucius is part of the social elite, rich and powerfully connected to all the right people and not only that, his family have been for generations. He was born that way. He did nothing to deserve it; it is his right of birth. Or birth right. Arthur is the opposite. He is poor and much lower down on the social scale; he has no power and is most defiantly not connected at all. But Arthur too believes that that is his birth right. And unfortunately there is no social movement. It is impossible for Arthur to rise up, no matter how rich he may become, and just as impossible for Lucius to move down no matter how poor he may become. So in that restrictive society the belief that supremacy exist in the genes and blood becomes the norm. Lucius and Arthur both believe that their position in the world is the result of their birth, parents and class. The question of education, personality, kindness, niceness, generosity have no baring in this fact of life. Remember the story is set in a country that believes that a man or woman is King/Queen simply because they were born that way. No other qualification is necessary. And the rest of the nation is to bow to that other human being. Somehow I'm am less than the Queen, my status is lower. I could be a more intelegent, pretter, nicer, more generous, kind, productive, creative and useful member of society, but that dosen't matter if I stand before the queen I'm expected to lower my head in subserviance. And you know what I actually agree with that. Weird isn't it? So Lucius' hate stems from the fact the Arthur is simply, in his opinion and words a disgrace to the wizarding world. So is Arthur's wife and the idea that those two people can be allowed to breed so many children is abhorrent to him. Excuse the harsh language, but I it effectively sums up Lucius' point of view. He needs no other excuse. Arthur is a good man and also far more tolerant than Mr. Malfoy. His hatred seems to come from the fact the Lucius is an arrogant bastard and treats his family with disrespect and disregard. Discusting isn't it? > Iggy here: > It seems that they are close enough in age that their animosity would have started back in school. > Also, while we may have seen the Black family tree, we haven't seen the one for the Malfoy family. For all we know, Arthur and Lucius are first cousins or something, and we all know their respective feelings towards Muggles. (And then there's the really fun one... Like Snape possibly having been in love with Lilly, Lucius may have been in love with Molly. *grin*) Mandy here: OK how about this for a theory: Perhaps Molly and Lucius are brother and sister? Lucius would hate Arthur for bringing his sister down into the gutter, and keeping her there. And in turn hate his sister for falling for a lower class wizard. It would seem likely that Sirius would have mentioned it though, when he mentioned that Arthur and Lucius are cousins. Just a silly thought, Mandy From phil_hp7 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 6 13:14:20 2004 From: phil_hp7 at hotmail.com (Phil Boswell) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 13:14:20 -0000 Subject: Sirius-Weasley Cousin-ness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90381 "nuriaobradors" wrote: > In Oop, chapter 6, upon Harry's surprise from finding Narcissa and > Sirius are first cousins, Sirius explains how pure blood families > are interrelated and examples (is that a verb in English?) : > "Molly and I are cousins by marriage and Arthur's something like my > second cousin once removed". > The second part of the sentence is very clear (as long as Sirius > isn't messing family relations up): Arthur would be Sirius's second > cousin child, either from Mrs Black side, or on some Mr Black's > *female* relatives. (none of my second cousins, for instance, has the > same surname as me, and only one of my first cousins has). Alternatively one of Sirius' parents could be Arthur's second cousin. I had a look around and found an interesting chart at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~vatgs/cousins_chart.htm As can be seen, the relationship is symmetric: you are "second cousin once removed" to your "second cousin once removed" and vice versa. > Now, my assumption here is that by saying "Molly and I are cousins by > marriage" Sirius does NOT refer to her marriage to Arthur. My reasons > to assuming this are: [snipped because they appear sound] > The possibilities, then, are as follows: > 1. [possible previous marrige by Molly snipped] > 2. Molly's cousin to Sirius by Marriage because her brother or sister > is married to one of Sirius's cousins. There are more possibilities. Cousins are technically people who are related to each other but not as close as siblings or aunts/uncles (who are their *parents'* siblings). So the relationship could be more distant. All it needs is for one of Molly's ancestors to have married one of Sirius' ancestors. Bearing in mind the obsession with keeping the bloodlines pure, it would not be surprising if relationships many generations back are known. I've certainly met several third cousins (my Family Tree having been traced for 27 generations this is not that hard :-) and their ages could be very different from mine, despite us belonging to the "same" generation. Add to that the possibility of inter-marriage *between* generations ... > Either that or Sirius really find it tricky to determine family > grades of relative-ness. ;) Doesn't everybody? HTH HAND -- Phil From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 6 17:28:55 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:28:55 -0000 Subject: From Black to White (was Peter...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > So, even if it can be proved that Black is dead, which it nigh > impossible as Carol clearly points out above, how can DD convince > Fudge and the WW that he was really fighting on the good side? Harry is Sirius' only hope, and I believe he is going to > channel a lot of his anger in to clearing Sirius name eventually, > but for now he's got a lot on his plate to deal with. "K": Do we even know yet that Black was not a DE or that he really was on the side of good? IMO we don't. Barnes and Noble Chat/20 October 2000 Is Sirius Black ever going to be cleared? JKR: Can't tell you, that's too important a bit of information! From rredordead at aol.com Fri Feb 6 17:43:27 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:43:27 -0000 Subject: Molly Malfoy was: Sirius-Weasley Cousin-ness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90383 > Nuri > The possibilities, then, are as follows: > > 1. Molly's cousin to Sirius by Marriage with *another* of Sirius's > cousins (very Star Wars, as JKR would say? Yet it throws a new range of possibilities... married to Arthur's brother first, had Bill and Charlie... First husband dies, finds console in his muggle loving brother, end up in love, married and having 5 more children... shame and scandal in the family that wipes the weasleys out of the tapestry) > > 2. Molly's couin to Sirius by Marriage because her brother or sister is married to one of Sirius's cousins. The thing, then, is *who* those two could be. Could we have Molly Malfoy -Weasley? Lestrange- Weasley? Mandy here: As I mentioned briefly in another post I like the Molly Malfoy idea. She could be Lucius' sister. It would fuel the Lucius-Arthur hatred. Lucius would be gutted by the idea that his sister could marry such a socially challenged man, who can't raise above junior minister, and who's kept her pregnant for the last 20 something years. Perhaps something awful happened, like Lucius and her parents disowned her on her marriage. Molly seems like the sort of girl to do exactly what she wants. Cheers Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Fri Feb 6 17:49:51 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:49:51 -0000 Subject: From Black to White and back to Black (was Peter...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90384 Mandy wrote: > > So, even if it can be proved that Black is dead, which it nigh > > impossible as Carol clearly points out above, how can DD convince Fudge and the WW that he was really fighting on the good side? Harry is Sirius' only hope, and I believe he is going to channel a lot of his anger in to clearing Sirius name eventually, but for now he's got a lot on his plate to deal with. > "K" wrote: > Do we even know yet that Black was not a DE or that he really was on the side of good? IMO we don't. > Barnes and Noble Chat/20 October 2000 > Is Sirius Black ever going to be cleared? > JKR: Can't tell you, that's too important a bit of information! Mandy here: Damned good point! I handn't put much thought into a ESE/Sirius idea. But would Harry accept it? Would we? More importantly could JKR really do that to Harry and us??? Do you have a past post on ESE/Sirius? I would love to read it. Mandy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 17:56:59 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:56:59 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble (longer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90385 Sue wrote: > I really would be disappointed it ANY person on Privet > drive or related to the Dursleys in any way showed up with magic > powers. It has always struck me as curious that Hagrid attacked > Dudley. I think it could be one of two possibilities. Because > Hagrid is not a fully trained wizard, Dudley, as a child, was easier > to hex. Maybe even muggles are harder to hex as they get older. Or > (and I tend to think this is more likely) Hagrid is aware of EXACTLY > how awful Dudley has been to Harry because Dumbledore has watched > Harry "more closely" than Harry ever knew. Perhaps DD shared some of > the lowlights of Dudley's behavior with Hagrid before he went to get > Harry. I think your second suggestion is closer to the mark, though probably Hagrid's not being a fully trained wizard (and using a broken wand hidden in an umbrella) is the reason the spell caused only a pig's tail to appear rather than transforming Dudley into a pig. But I think also that punishing the son punishes the parents (they'd be more upset by Dudley's pig's tail than one of their own). Also Dudley's being so fat probably suggested the idea of a pig to Hagrid's mind, and maybe the temptation was too great to resist. :-) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 18:10:13 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 18:10:13 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90386 "Janet Anderson" wrote: For all we know, Dumbledore is a *registered* Animagus, right there for anyone to see who wanted to look it up. And Hermione, who can certainly keep a secret, might not have mentioned it, either because she thinks it might be an important piece of information to have up her sleeve, or because Dumbledore or McGonagall asked her not to. > Jim Ferer responded: > I like that explanation. It's the most plausible one to me. Hermione > would absolutely keep a secret if asked. I never warmed up to the > idea that Hermione looked up all the animagi registered *this > century,* and didn't find him because DD was registered the century > before - it seemed like such a loophole, and you'd think any list of > animagi would include the ones *still living.* OTOH, there are > hypotheses that could explain why DD didn't register or that his > registration was a State secret: > > ** DD didn't register for the same reason Rita Skeeter didn't, > although his motives were purer: he gathered intelligence this way on LV, and Grindenwald before him. > > ** He did register, but the Minister at the time (not Fudge) agreed > to keep it secret. Fudge may not even know, which at the time of OoP would have been a good thing. > > There's no evidence for any of it, but it seems to make sense. Carol: Or maybe animagi weren't required to register in the old days (pre-Grindelwald). IIRC, the werewolf registration law is new. Doesn't Percy indicate that it was instituted by Crouch? In any case, children seem to have been able to practice magic at home when Lily was at Hogwarts (unless Petunia is making up stories about frog spawn and rats turning into teacups and I don't see why that would be the case), so the laws appear to have become stricter in recent years (unless you count exceptions for Aurors allowing them to cast Unforgiveable Curses). Anyway, I agree that there must be some reasonable explanation for DD's being an unregistered animagus, if indeed he is one. And again, all we have as evidence is his name, the presence of wasps in various scenes, the precedent of Rita Skeeter, and DD's ability to become "invisible" if he chooses. It's one way of accounting for his near-omniscience regarding Harry, with fewer complications than the time-travel theory, but there may be other explanations as well. Anyone else have any ideas? Carol From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 6 18:13:51 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 18:13:51 -0000 Subject: From Black to White and back to Black (was Peter...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Mandy here: > Damned good point! I handn't put much thought into a ESE/Sirius > idea. But would Harry accept it? Would we? More importantly could > JKR really do that to Harry and us??? > > Do you have a past post on ESE/Sirius? I would love to read it. > Mandy "K": I do have a friend on another site who makes some very good points for ESE/Sirius. I'm sure it's been discussed here also. Would JKR really do that? Yes. Personally, I hope not. Even though Sirius was always a jerk I did like him. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 18:19:45 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 18:19:45 -0000 Subject: Agnes (was Re: Snape's mother) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90388 > Audrey (who wondered while writing this what you call the non-magical > offspring of a mixed, Muggle/Magic couple? Would they be Muggles or > Squibs?) I guess it depends on whether they can see Dementors and have an affinity with cats! Carol From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Feb 6 13:57:21 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 13:57:21 -0000 Subject: Colonel Fubster/Ripper/Agnes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90389 Berit asked if we'd see Col. Fubster again. "K" wrote: > I wonder if we are suppose to be noticing Marge, Colonel Fubster, > and/or *Ripper*. > "Did you see everything I saw?" Harry asked, unsure whether he > wanted to hear the answer. > > "Flashes of it," said Snape, his lip curling. "To whom did the dog > belong?" > > "My Aunt Marge," Harry muttered, hating Snape. > oop/ch 24/pg 535/us > > Wonder why Snape is interested in the dog owner? Or is he really > interested in the dog? Potioncat: What a circle these posts become!! I think it was Berit, who started this thread and also asked about Agnes being Snape's mother. Here's Snape being very interested in a viscious dog whose owner "barks." Could this be a connecting clue? Potioncat From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 18:39:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 18:39:34 -0000 Subject: the gum wrappers (Was: Great Uncle Algie) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90390 > > Julie -- who really really really wants to know what is up with the gum wrappers! > AF: > I just thought JK was making a point of Neville's psyche and how > sad his life has been. I don't think there's much to the gum > wrappers otherwise, I mean Neville's parents are certifiably > insane. If you've ever been in contact with people who have lost > their minds due to alzheimer's, strokes, or other degenerative > neurological diseases, that type of act (giving someone something > relatively 'useless') is often commonplace. I just thought it had > personal meaning to Neville b/c it was likely one of the only things > or types of things his parents gave him that is tangible. > Carol: Also it suggests that Alice has some dim memory of her son (or her younger self, who resembled him). She reaches out to Neville in an infantile way and he's touched by it. So is the reader: I'd have been very disappointed in Neville if he'd thrown away that gum wrapper. (Neville's father, Frank, OTOH, doesn't appear in the scene even though we know he's behind the curtain, perhaps an indication that his mental condition is even worse than Alice's.) The scene serves primarily, I think, to introduce Hermione, Ron, and Ginny to the sad fate of Neville's parents, to give us as readers a glimpse of Gran, and to enable Harry to feel empathy for Neville. Whatever the case with the gum wrappers, I'm certain we're going to learn more about the Longbottoms in the next two books. But there *is* something odd about the gum wrappers themselves. Bubbles from Droobles' Best Blowing Gum are large and blue and take a long time to pop. There's no sign that anyone in the ward has been blowing bubbles, no residue on the walls (though of course Alice could chew it, or even eat it thinking it's candy without blowing bubbles). Even though I'm not a proponent of the theory that someone is keeping the Longbottoms insane through a spell on the bubblegum, I do think there's something more behind the wrappers than Alice's simple gesture of dim recognition and it's very touching acknowledgement by Neville. Maybe Harry will see Neville holding a pocketful of gum wrappers and it will trigger a conversation about Neville's parents. I'm willing to bet that they'll come back into the story in some way, just as Agnes the hairy-faced woman will. JKR doesn't drop in details of that sort for nothing. Carol From dalriada26 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 18:31:31 2004 From: dalriada26 at yahoo.com (Dalriada) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 18:31:31 -0000 Subject: The Podmores/Filch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90391 Once again, apologies if this has been discussed to death. I've been re-reading CoS. In the Deathday Party chapter, Sir Nick's letter denying him membership in the Headless Hunt is signed by Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore. Considering the importance of names, is it safe to assume Sir Patrick is a distant relation of Order member Sturgis Podmore? Sturgis was sent to Azkaban after being caught in the MoM. I wonder what Sir Patrick did to get decapitated? A while back there was discussion about `aristocratic' wizards and hyphenated names. Are there any wizards out there with the Delaney name we know of or could Sir Patrick be going by Delaney-Podmore just to be fashionable? For random speculation, I present this: I propose it is Filch who is the previously incapable wizard that will be able to use magic in the future. It is during the Deathday Party chapter that Harry is taken to Filch's office and he reads the Kwikspell letter. When I first read this book, I thought the letter was a charming detail that JKR put in for fun (in addition to illustrating the insecurity/tension Squibs face in the wizarding world). Now, I take no detail for granted. Why would JRK even create a method of training like Kwikspell if it is never used or mentioned again? Sure, it's supposedly used by the witches and wizards who give testimonials in the Kwikspell letter, but who are they to us, the readers? Why should we care if these random witches and wizards were able to learn magic? Now Filch learning magic has more ramifications for the story. After all, he was so close to having the power to punish students with Umbridge as Headmistress-- what would Filch do to misbehaving kids if he could perform a few effective charms or hexes? Would a magical Filch (along with Mrs. Norris) roaming about end HRH sneaking around the castle with, or without, Invisibility Cloak? Then again, it's also been said that the newly-magical person would use magic in a certain situation, implying the power is not permanent, so who knows if this scenario could even happen? Still, it's fun to imagine. Dally From suzchiles at msn.com Fri Feb 6 18:49:31 2004 From: suzchiles at msn.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:49:31 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Great Uncle Algie References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90392 AF, I think your post is spot-on. I remember when I was very young, my mother was hospitalized for nervous problems due to extreme stress. When I visited her, she gave me a yarn octopus that she must have made in art therapy. I still have that octopus, nearly 40 years later. Suzanne ----- Original Message ----- From: "armadillof" To: Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Great Uncle Algie > > > > > Julie -- who really really really wants to know what is up with > the > > gum wrappers! > > > I just thought JK was making a point of Neville's psyche and how > sad his life has been. I don't think there's much to the gum > wrappers otherwise, I mean Neville's parents are certifiably > insane. If you've ever been in contact with people who have lost > their minds due to alzheimer's, strokes, or other degenerative > neurological diseases, that type of act (giving someone something > relatively 'useless') is often commonplace. I just thought it had > personal meaning to Neville b/c it was likely one of the only things > or types of things his parents gave him that is tangible. > > AF From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 18:50:58 2004 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 18:50:58 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Lucius (Was Re: Weasleys on the Tapestry) In-Reply-To: <20040205125637.77395.qmail@web25205.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90393 > John: > I want to know why it is that Arthur Weasley and and Lucius Malfoy hate each other so much, even before the Chamber of Secrets incident. Obviously their views clash, but there seems to be a deep personal animosity over and above that. Erin: I can't resist a chance to plug the Arthur Weasley With Imperius theory, so here you go: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40168 It explains everything. Erin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 18:55:15 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 18:55:15 -0000 Subject: gum wrappers (Was: How many people know the prophecy?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90394 Hitomi: > Ohayo minna! >> ~ Hitomi, who like Julie, wants to know what is up with the gum > wrappers, and how many Neville has Carol: Probably one for each visit, so thirteen or fourteen, depending on when he made his first visit--twice that if he visits in summer, too. (I doubt that he visits more often than that. It would be pointless and very depressing. (Maybe it's Neville who gives his mom the gum, and she gives him the used wrapper back?) Carol, who wants to know what "ohayo minna" means From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 19:06:08 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:06:08 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90395 "allison grannis" wrote: > In my opinion, and I have read these books almost religiously, the > fact that Dumbledore taught transfiguration does not necessarily > mean that he was an animagus. As stated throughout the books, just > because a wizard has the ability of certain powers, does not mean > that he would use them. And besides that, let's look to the OOTP to > the part where Umbridge thinks she has 'busted' Harry about the D.A. > If Dumbledore was an animagus, why not just transfigure then, > instead of using Fawkes? Carol: I agree that having taught Transfiguration doesn't prove he's an animagus; it simply indicates that he probably taught McGonagall how to become one. It's one piece of evidence that seems to fit the pattern, none of which proves the theory. It's possible, however, that DD used Fawkes to escape Umbridge (and Fudge) to avoid revealing that he was an Animagus. (Please understand that I'm not arguing for the Animagus theory, just exploring it as a possibility.) But along the same lines as your Fawkes point, DD tells Harry near the end of OoP that the members of the Order have ways of communicating with each other other than the Floo Network (he seems to be referring here to Snape communicating with 12 Grimauld Place). I don't know whether these methods involve invisibility (probably not), but they could account for some of Dumbledore's knowledge. Carol, who is very curious about those mysterious methods of communication! From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 6 19:19:50 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:19:50 -0000 Subject: Colonel Fubster/Ripper/Agnes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90396 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > What a circle these posts become!! "K" That's the truth! Potioncat: > I think it was Berit, who started this thread and also asked about > Agnes being Snape's mother. > > Here's Snape being very interested in a viscious dog whose owner > "barks." Could this be a connecting clue? "K" How about this scene: He was nine, and Ripper the bulldog was chasing him up a tree... He was sitting under the Sorting Hat... Hermione was lying in the hospital wing, *her face covered with thick black hair...* oop/ch 24/pg 534/us "Here you are, Agnes," said the Healer brightly to the *furry-faced woman*, handing her a small pile of Christmas presents. "See, not forgotten, are you? And your son's sent an owl to say he's visiting tonight, so that's nice, isn't it?" oop/ch 23/pg 512/us I do think we need to take another look at Vernon (Mimble Wimble), Marge, Yvonne, Marjoca (mentioned in two of the books), that glass shattering, Colonel Fubster, and dear Ripper. Perhaps Fubster is nothing more than a muggle but that doesn't mean he won't play a role in the books. Is Ripper something other than just your average dog? He doesn't like Harry but he does like his tea! :-) So perhaps someone (Fubster and/or Ripper)is interested in Harry and has found a way to keep tabs on him by becoming close to Marge who is related to Vernon. They would then have access to Harry. "K" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 19:31:03 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:31:03 -0000 Subject: The meanings of the titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90397 David wrote: > The Order of the Phoenix I have more trouble with. I can't see a > convincing meaning beyond the surface one. There is a latent theme > of unity (think of the Sorting Hat's song) even though it is mostly > worked out through examples of disunity and disconnection. One > could argue that by 'ignoring' Harry over the year Dumbledore has > handed over leadership of the fellowship of the good to Harry, > nucleated in the six who visit the MOM and extended in the DA. I > dunno. > > Any thoughts? Is there a series of double meanings in the titles? > If so, does it point to anything? Religion? Carol: Without getting too deeply into this topic (though I did ask, a while back, for some symbolic rather than allegorical or archetypological readings of the books!), there's obviously some rebirth symbolism relating to the Phoenix (Fawkes himself, the Phoenix feathers in Harry's and Voldemort's wands, and the Order of the Phoenix itself, belatedly arising from its own ashes). If you want to give it a religious twist, it could somehow be connected with resurrection. I prefer not to go the Christ symbol route myself, and JKR has made it clear in her interviews that the dead will not come back. But the rebirth imagery is undeniable. We also see it in the associations of both holly and yew with rebirth or immortality. You might think about why Dumbledore has a Phoenix. Could Fawkes, who is red and gold like the Gryffindor colors, have been passed along from Godric Gryffindor to each successive Head of Gryffindor House for a thousand years? (I'm assuming here that DD was Head of Gryffindor House before he became Headmaster and that McGonagall, as his successor, would receive Fawkes as a sort of inheritance when DD dies.) What are the implications of the name, the Order of the Phoenix? Was that its original name? If so, why, since it hadn't been reborn? Anyway, I'm not sure how you're connecting "unity" with the Order of the Phoenix (though of course I see the unity theme). And, um, "nucleated"? Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 19:38:05 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:38:05 -0000 Subject: What's in the Chamber of Secrets that will come up later? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90398 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > I had read that JKR says that there is something in the Chamber of > Secrets that will play an important part in the books to come. That > has me on my path again of wondering what is in there? Is it that > there is something about the Chamber itself or in the book? I reread > the part about the Chamber, and the only things that seemed to stand > out were the 2 intwined snakes at the entrance that had emerald eyes > and seemed to be alive. Also, the huge statue of Slytherin and the > basilisk coming out of his mouth. Any ideas? > > Sawsan Carol: This is pretty simplistic, I admit, but the Dark Mark is a skull with a snake coming out of its mouth. Is it the skull of Salazar Slytherin? At least that seems to be the source of the image in Tom Riddle/Voldemort's mind. Carol, who is wondering why the Order of Walpurgis changed its name to the Death Eaters and whether there's any connection between the name and the symbol From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 19:39:35 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:39:35 -0000 Subject: Agnes (was Re: Snape's mother) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90399 > Berit wrote: > > > Quote: "Two beds along was a woman whose entire > > head was covered in fur; Harry remembered something > > similar happening to Hermione during their second > > year, although fortunately the damage, in her case, > > had not been permanent. ... > > 'Here you are, Agnes,' said the Healer brightly to the > > furry-faced woman, handing her a small pile of Christmas > > presents. 'See, not forgotten, are you? And your son's > > sent an owl to say he's visiting tonight, so that's nice, > > isn't it?' > > Agnes gave several loud barks." (OoP p. 452 UK Ed). > > > > I can't help being suspicious when Rowling reveals small details > > about new, seemingly insignificant characters. > > Now (Audrey): > > One thing about this passage puzzles me. The healer hands Agnes a > pile of presents but *tells* her that her son sent an owl and will be > visiting. Now either Agnes can't read or the owl was addressed to > the staff and not to Agnes. If the former is the case then I really > don't have anywhere to go with this post, but assume, for > discussion's sake, the latter is correct. > > Why would someone write to the hospital where their mother is a > patient and inform the staff that they will be visiting later? > Perhaps this son needs some special assistance on arrival. Perhaps > this son can't enter a magical building without help. Perhaps this > son is a squib. (snip theory that Agnes may be Filch's mother.) Ginger: I'm not arguing the Filch theory, but I did want to add that the son may have owled the staff rather than Agnes herself simply because Agnes can't speak. I had a good friend with cerebral palsey who would have been perfectly capable of reading a note saying I was coming, or of hearing and understanding me had I said it in a phone call, but as she couldn't speak, she wouldn't have been able to communicate it to the staff. I used to call them and let them know that I was coming for a visit. If Filch is her son, I hope he leaves Mrs. Norris behind when he visits. Ginger From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 19:41:08 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:41:08 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90400 "sawsan_issa" wrote: > This motto has always been funny to me. I thought it was supposed to > be be funny until recently when I started to take everything in the HP > series seriously. SO, does anyone think that this will have an > important role in the book? Does anyone think that someone has been > tickling a sleeping dragon, and that's the cause of all the meyhem and > Lord Voldie, etc? > Well, a "sleeping" (formerly complacent) Draco has certainly been stirred to active malice. Not that I think that's the meaning of the motto, but "Draco" does mean "dragon." Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 20:03:35 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 20:03:35 -0000 Subject: Who's really in charge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90401 Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote: As Carol mentioned, Vernon and Petunia operate as a team. Sometimes one or the other takes the more prominent role, depending on the circumstances. In the scene where Petunia found out that Mrs. Figg has broken her leg and can't take Harry while the Dursleys take Dudley and Piers to the zoo, they are both making suggestions and objections to each other. In CoS, when they are getting ready for the Masons' arrival, Vernon is the one in charge of setting the stage. And when the letter from the Ministry arrived, it was Vernon who locked Harry in his room. > > Sawsan here: > > I dont know about Vernon and Petunia, I agree about Petunia wearing > the pants in the family. Vernon almost seems to fear her reaction if > he were to mention Harry at the beginning of PS/SS. I think she is > definitely the one in charge. That's why I hope to see her become a > witch, perhaps that fire she has got in her will be put out, and she > would have to come to terms with being a "freak" and then finally > realize that it wasn't all that bad after all. IF she does develop > powers, then we will see who is in charge; because if it is Vernon, he will probably either divorce her or treat her badly for a while after recovering from shock and a possible hernia. If it is Petunia, I can imagine her acting as if she were sick and Vernon would be pampering her while loathing Harry even moreso because(perhaps in Vernon's eyes) Harry infected her with his abnormality. Carol: As I said in one of my book-length posts that probably got skipped, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90322 I think that Vernon and Petunia are acting as a team to suppress Harry's magical impulses, but for different reasons. Vernon, the arch-Muggle, is just afraid of what the neighbors and his business contacts will think if they find out he has an "abnormal" nephew. Petunia's motives are much more complex and much less clear--partly hiding from the neighbors (which Vernon thinks is her whole motive), partly long-standing jealousy of Lily, and partly knowledge of the WW that she's hiding even from Vernon. The suppression is difficult for her--she strikes me as the gossiping type who hates keeping a secret, and in the few instances in which she has a chance to tell part of what she knows, it comes bursting out of her. But there's something going on between her and Dumbledore (maybe the secret of Harry's blood kinship to her as the reason he has to stay with her and some incentive for keeping her end of the bargain). At any rate, both Vernon and Petunia suppress Harry at different times and for different reasons. Petunia is definitely *not* in charge at the time Vernon is nailing up the mail slots and searching madly for a way to escape the owls, but she clearly *is* in charge after the Dementors appear (but at that time she's not suppressing Harry, she's saying that he has to stay). I don't see Petunia as a Squib who'll become a witch. Her parents were Muggles, and as JKR has said in an interview, Muggles don't have Squib children (though they can have witch and wizard children like Lily). In fact JKR says straight out in that interview that Petunia is *not* a witch. But she definitely has some knowledge of the WW which will come to light in the later books. Maybe we'll even see her attitude toward Harry change. She might even tell him what happened to her parents. If it's as terrible as I imagine it is, her hostility toward the WW is perfectly understandable (even though it's wrong to take it out on Harry). Carol, who will try to keep her posts shorter so they won't deter readers! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Feb 6 20:08:00 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 20:08:00 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90402 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "charlot7542" wrote: > Charlotte: > Agreed that Harry's going to have to control his temper and > rashness, but remember he's only 15 years old and (literally) has > the weight of the world on his shoulders - this is not normal teen- > angst. Sure it wouldn't hurt for him to see things from Snape's > point of view, but your asking something from a teenager that Snape, > a man close to 40 has never demonstrated. A little mutual > understanding would go a long way. > Maybe it's me. Perhaps I imagine things and I haven't written what I think I've written. But, please, please, please, could someone explain to me why when I say that I believe Snape's behaviour towards Harry and Neville is an act, everybody ignores that part of my post. Are so many members determined that Snape *must* mentally torture and degrade children for fun? It seems that all other sins can be forgiven, but one hard word to Harry and he is unfit to teach, he is a monster, he must be made to see the error of his ways. Poppycock. It's a sad day when a self-centred little snot like Harry can't be firmly put in his place. And Snape's the man to do it, even if it is part of his cover. Snape is the necessary corrective in Harry's school world. The one person who will make DD's pet look over his shoulder before he tries one of those stunts that end as an epic cock-up. Who else will act as a brake on Harry? On average, I'd estimate that Harry sees DD maybe four times in a school year, and one of those is the final chapter explication in each book when DD acts more like a concerned, third rate Self-Actualisation Counselor rather than as a Headmaster protecting a confused teenager from a murderous monster. In theory, the head of Gryffindor House is McGonagall, but he usually sees her only in Transfiguration classes, though they may meet very occasionally when storm clouds loom. Not that it does any good, he generally ignores what she has to say anyway. The one staff member on the spot is invariably Snape. Why is this? Because it's his job. He's been appointed as Harry's guardian angel at Hogwarts - by DD. He's the one to warn Harry off, to keep him out of trouble and to save his skin when necessary. And what better way to keep an eye on him than to loudly proclaim that Harry is trouble and that he (Snape) will dog his footsteps until he catches him out. Harry being Harry is entirely predictable in his attitudes and behaviour and makes Snape's job so much easier and his announced intention very believable. Don't get me wrong, Snape is never going to adopt Harry; he almost certainly sees him as a pain in the neck that he could do without, but do you really think that he doesn't understand how important Harry is to Dumbledore's plan? With maybe Neville as first reserve? Of course he does. All his actions towards Harry are calculated. Only once has he ever physically threatened Harry, despite all the provocation thrown at him, at that was when Harry delved into the Pensieve. And there, I strongly suspect, his reaction was not because of what Harry saw, but what he *might* have seen. Harry seeing Snape embarassed is one thing, Harry seeing something critical, secret, or dangerous about Snape and Voldy would be something else again. (Nobody ever asks about the other memories Snape put in the Pensieve.) We all knowingly repeat how foolish it is to take JKR's characterisations at face value; how she deliberately misleads. Are there so many posters that consciously and deliberately stifle their suspicions when looking at Snape? Just because he's sarcastic? You fall in my estimation if you do. Kneasy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 20:14:12 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 20:14:12 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Lucius (Was Re: Weasleys on the Tapestry) In-Reply-To: <000301c3ecb9$2db13940$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90403 -John wrote:I want to know why it is that Arthur Weasley and and Lucius Malfoy hate each other so much, even before the Chamber of Secrets incident. Obviously their views clash, but there seems to be a deep personal animosity over and above that. Iggy responded:: It seems that they are close enough in age that their animosity would have started back in school. Carol: Are they? Lucius is 41 at the end of GoF, making him about four years older than Snape and MWPP, whereas Molly says that she and Arthur were students before Hagrid became gamekeeper, which happened about fifty years before CoS. That being the case, the Weasleys must be in their seventies, middle-aged by WW standards but much too old to have gone to school with Lucius Malfoy. Unless the part about Ogg, the gamekeeper, is a Flint, the age difference is too great for this idea to be correct. I agree, though, that it's that *kind* of rivalry, very like what we see between Harry and Draco (or James and Severus as boys). Maybe Lucius Malfoy's father was Arthur's school nemesis, and Lucius inherited the mutual hositlity when he grew up. Carol From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 6 20:26:10 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 20:26:10 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble (longer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Sue wrote: > > Or > > (and I tend to think this is more likely) Hagrid is aware of EXACTLY > > how awful Dudley has been to Harry because Dumbledore has watched > > Harry "more closely" than Harry ever knew. Perhaps DD shared some of > > the lowlights of Dudley's behavior with Hagrid before he went to get > > Harry. > > Carol: But I think > also that punishing the son punishes the parents (they'd be more upset > by Dudley's pig's tail than one of their own). Also Dudley's being so > fat probably suggested the idea of a pig to Hagrid's mind, and maybe > the temptation was too great to resist. :-) > Bookworm: I realize that it wasn't Hagrid casting the spells, but the Ministry officials seemed to have no trouble dealing with Mr. Roberts at the QWC. Maybe there is a difference because Hagrid's powers aren't as strong. But when Hagrid gets angry, I don't think *he* is thinking clearly. So the idea of punishing the parents but attacking Dudley seems too subtle for him. And in the scene, Hagrid was furious with Vernon. If he knew how Vernon had treated Harry (which doesn't seem likely given that he didn't know Harry hadn't been told anything about his parents), then that would increase Hagrid's anger. If that were the case, I think I think his fury would be beyond his control. He was obviously controlled enough to deliberately turn his attack away from Vernon and toward Dudley for no apparent reason. "Control" and "Hagrid" aren't often found in the same sentence, IMO. Also, Hagrid attributes the pig's tail (instead of a complete pig) to Dudley's personality - "Meant ter turn him into a pig, but I suppse he was so much like a pig anyway there wasn't much left ter do." (p59) As angry as he was, I think there would have been a lot of magical weight behind his spell, but it didn't work. Hagrid isn't the most reliable source. I think he found the easiest answer to fit the situation. But is it really what happened? I don't think so. I think there are a few more puzzle pieces that JKR hasn't given us yet. Another thought - Dumbledore was the Transfiguration teacher when Hagrid was expelled, not Headmaster (SoC). Hagrid didn't say that Dumbledore persuaded the Headmaster to let Hagrid stay on as gamekeeper, or that the Headmaster let him stay. Hagrid said that *Dumbledore let* him stay on. Dumbledore's role becomes ever more like "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." (to borrow a quote) Ravenclaw Bookworm From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 20:54:37 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 20:54:37 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Animagi, and animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90405 Pippin wrote: > I think the animal companions and counterparts may represent a > desire or ability that's being repressed. The more developed > characters have more than one animal because they are more > complex. > > Harry > the snake: his connection with Voldemort > the deer : memories of his father > the owl: knowledge (all those questions Harry doesn't let > himself think of, much less ask.) > > Sirius > hippogriff: escape > dog form: uncomplicated emotions > > Hermione > otter patronus: playfullness > Crookshanks: aggression > > Dumbledore > Phoenix: immortality > Bumblebee: sting, ie, exercising those powers he is too noble to > use > Carol: I personally think that we know the pets (I can't say "animal companions" without cringing, sorry) of the students in Gryffindor because they're the ones Harry knows most about (how about Lee Jordan's tarantula?), and we know the forms of the few people who are animagi, but neither is an index of their development or complexity. None of them except McGonagall and the possible animagus, Dumbledore, are fully developed characters. McGonagall, Dumbledore, MWPP, and Rita Skeeter may or may not have had pets in their school days. (Imagine if McGonagall had a real cat as a pet, and she stepped outside with it occasionally to, um, "let her hair down.") As for a Patronus, every witch or wizard has one, but its identity or shape can only be discovered if they cast the spell correctly. All of which makes me wonder what Snape's "animal companion" (pet? familiar?) was when he was a student. (I know you'll say a bat, though I don't know if bats are allowed at Hogwarts as anything but Halloween decorations. Imagine one flying along the corridors and teachers and students screaming and running in all directions!) And what might his Patronus be? For that matter, what's his boggart, his greatest fear? Is it LV, which would help to explain why he hates to hear Voldemort's name? Imagine him as the DADA teacher teaching boggarts and having LV reveal himself to the terrified students! In any case, he's the most complex character of all, so if the theory that "the more developed characters have more than one animal because they are more complex" is valid, it would have to apply to him. Carol, who had fun with this post even though she doesn't believe the theory From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 21:25:18 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 21:25:18 -0000 Subject: Anagram Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90406 I don't know if this means anything, but the first year password to Gryffindor was Caput Draconis. Mix up the words and you get: Draco's a tin cup. I wonder if this means anything. IMO, probably not. I was just looking through old passwords and wodering if there's more to them that noone's noticed! Some of the other passwords: balderdash, fairy lights, mimbulus mimbletonia, etc. From rredordead at aol.com Fri Feb 6 21:50:41 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 21:50:41 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Lucius (Was Re: Weasleys on the Tapestry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90407 > John: > I want to know why it is that Arthur Weasley and and Lucius Malfoy > hate each other so much, even before the Chamber of Secrets incident. > Obviously their views clash, but there seems to be a deep personal > animosity over and above that. > Erin: > I can't resist a chance to plug the Arthur Weasley With Imperius > theory, so here you go: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40168 > It explains everything. Mandy here: It certainly does explain everything and it's a very good post too. Thanks for the link, it was before my time here on HPforGU. If Arthur was indeed under the Imperious during LV first reign, it would explain so much about his relationship with Lucius and his fear of the Dark Mark appearing in the sky at the Quidditch World Cup. Especially if Arthur had been involved in an action where the Mark was left over some poor Wizarding house. I can't imagine the guilt those forced to do heinous deeds under the Imperious must feel. Arthur, seems so eager to please by working so hard for little reward. Is he trying to repay a debt he feels he owes society for bad deeds? I love getting new theories (new to me) to think about. Cheers Mandy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 22:00:28 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 22:00:28 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90408 Kneasy wrote: Maybe it's me. Perhaps I imagine things and I haven't written what I think I've written. But, please, please, please, could someone explain to me why when I say that I believe Snape's behaviour towards Harry and Neville is an act, everybody ignores that part of my post. > It's a sad day when a self-centred little snot like Harry can't be firmly put in his place. And Snape's the man to do it, even if it is part of his cover. Snape is the necessary corrective in Harry's school world. The one person who will make DD's pet look over his shoulder before he tries one of those stunts that end as an epic cock-up. Who else will act as a brake on Harry? > The one staff member on the spot is invariably Snape. Why is this? Because it's his job. He's been appointed as Harry's guardian angel at Hogwarts - by DD. He's the one to warn Harry off, to keep him out of trouble and to save his skin when necessary. And what better way to keep an eye on him than to loudly proclaim that Harry is trouble and that he (Snape) will dog his footsteps until he catches him out. Harry being Harry is entirely predictable in his attitudes and behaviour and makes Snape's job so much easier and his announced intention very believable. All his actions towards Harry are calculated. Only once has he ever physically threatened Harry, despite all the provocation thrown at him, at that was when Harry delved into the Pensieve. And there, I strongly suspect, his reaction was not because of what Harry saw, but what he *might* have seen. Harry seeing Snape embarassed is one thing, Harry seeing something critical, secret, or dangerous about Snape and Voldy would be something else again. (Nobody ever asks about the other memories Snape put in the Pensieve.) Carol: With the exception of your characterization of Harry, I agree wholeheartedly with your post, especially the parts I've retained her. But "I agree" posts are forbidden, which is why I haven't responded earlier. Maybe others are in the same boat. I think that many of us probably see Snape as DD's righthand man, playing the important role of "bad cop" to DD's "good cop"; keeping an eye on Harry and steering him away from trouble whenever possible. (And not just Harry, but Ron as well.) I think, for example, that it was necessary for Snape to punch a hole in the balloon of "our new celebrity" on the first day of class to show both him and his fellow students that Harry was no different in most respects from anyone else in the class and just how profound his ignorance of potions (and the WW in general) really was. Snape's motive was the same as DD's in having Harry raised by Muggles (setting aside protective charms related to Harry's blood)--to keep him from being a spoiled little god to his fellow students. But also I think that lesson must be etched in Harry's memory, and when the time comes when he needs a bezoar, he'll remember it. I could give other examples but I want to get to your point about the Pensieve, which I was actually thinking about before I read your post. Harry thinks--and DD wants him to think--that Snape stopped giving the occlumency lessons because Harry witnessed Snape's worst memory in the Pensieve. But as you say, what were those other two memories that Snape had put in the Pensieve *specifically to prevent them from being seen by Harry*? What if they were not memories of his own personal humiliation but something he didn't want Voldemort, via Harry, to see? I suggest that one of them was Snape's arrangement with Dumbledore to teach Potions at Hogwarts, bound by some promise of loyalty that Dumbledore trusts implicitly. The other might have been his revelation to Dumbledore that Harry's parents were in danger. Whatever they were, it was essential that they not be seen by either Harry or Voldemort. I imagine Snape rushing to the Pensieve expecting the worst, then forcing himself to control his anger and remove Harry from the objectifid memory, throwing Harry *from* him, as someone (maybe you, Kneasy) pointed out, so he won't hurt him and then sending him away. Then Snape would have calmed himself down, put his thoughts back into his head, and gone to Dumbledore with the empty Pensieve, saying that Harry can't be trusted not to look into the Pensieve and it's too great a risk to continue the lessons. If DD had thought that they should have continued, he would have ordered Snape to do so despite the humiliation he had suffered. But he saw the need to stop them and accepted the humiliation as a believable excuse for doing so. (In any case, as Harry himself admits, it was his own fault that the lessons weren't accomplishing their objective. He hated Snape too much to listen to what he had to say or to block his emotions from his mind.) One more bit of evidence that I think backs up Kneasy and that is DD's continued insistence that Harry call Snape "Professor Snape" and his detailed explanation at the end of OoP of Snape's role in getting the members of the Order to the MoM. If it weren't for Snape contacting the Order members, Harry and his friends would be dead. He even tried to prevent Sirius from going there, and if Sirius had heeded him, he also would be alive. And DD points out to Harry that Snape *had* to play a role, pretending he hadn't received Harry's cryptic message. He *had* to conceal from Umbridge that he not only understood it but intended to act on it. But Harry is too absorbed in his agony over Sirius's death to hear. It's too convenient to hate Snape and blame everything on him. In other words, yes, Snape is "the necessary corrective in Harry's world." Yes, he is Harry's "guardian angel." And, yes, he must conceal his role. Fortunately for him and for Dumbledore, he has just the personality to pull it off without suspicion--from Harry or from the Slytherin students whose fathers happen to be Death Eaters. Snape is in mortal danger as a spy (or whatever he's doing for the Order). He is also in mortal danger if his role as Harry's protector is discovered. Harry, in contrast, is in no real danger from Snape's sarcasm. It will cause him no permanent harm, as we've already seen. But falling from a broom, being bitten by a werewolf, being AK'd by Death Eaters in the DoM? Those are the kinds of dangers from which Snape is trying to protect Harry without being detected, to keep him alive for Dumbledore and for the ultimate battle against Lord Voldemort. Carol, who apologizes to the List Elves for being prolific but had to answer one last post before getting back to work From rredordead at aol.com Fri Feb 6 22:02:29 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 22:02:29 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90409 > "sawsan_issa" wrote: > This motto has always been funny to me. I thought it was supposed to be be funny until recently when I started to take everything in the HP series seriously. SO, does anyone think that this will have an > important role in the book? Does anyone think that someone has been tickling a sleeping dragon, and that's the cause of all the meyhem and Lord Voldie, etc? > Carol wrote: > Well, a "sleeping" (formerly complacent) Draco has certainly been > stirred to active malice. Not that I think that's the meaning of the motto, but "Draco" does mean "dragon." Mandy here: I know this has been discussed at length before, but principally it is this: It could either be connected to Harry being the sleeping Dragon and LV is doing the tickling, LV being the sleeping Dragon and Harry doing the tickling or Draco being the sleeping dragon and Harry tickling him. IMO, whatever the connection it has to involve the unification of the school by the Houses coming together. So, perhaps the school is the sleeping dragon, or has a dragon under it. In the Chamber of Secrets perhaps? There is excitement on MuggleNet about the discovery of a new clue concerning the Chamber of Secrets. And JKR herself said she almost gave it all away in book 2. What if the monster is not the Basilisk (he was just a pet), but a Dragon? So if Hogwarts is a sleeping dragon, perhaps the unification of the houses awakens it and creates a force that can banish the Army of Lord Voldemort. OK now I'm just rambling. More on this later after I thought it through. Mandy From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 6 22:47:45 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 22:47:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040206224745.26574.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90410 justcarol67 wrote: "sawsan_issa" wrote: > This motto has always been funny to me. I thought it was supposed to > be be funny until recently when I started to take everything in the HP > series seriously. SO, does anyone think that this will have an > important role in the book? Does anyone think that someone has been > tickling a sleeping dragon, and that's the cause of all the meyhem and > Lord Voldie, etc? > Well, a "sleeping" (formerly complacent) Draco has certainly been stirred to active malice. Not that I think that's the meaning of the motto, but "Draco" does mean "dragon." Carol Rincewind The first word of Hogwarts motto is DRAGO not DRACO as in Malfoy DRAGO means Dragon. AS far as I remember Draco was a Roman General, but It Does not mean Dragon. Rincewind ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save ?80 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Feb 6 22:49:12 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 22:49:12 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Carol: > Well, a "sleeping" (formerly complacent) Draco has certainly been > stirred to active malice. Not that I think that's the meaning of the > motto, but "Draco" does mean "dragon." Geoff: But not by tickling I think...... We did have a thread a few moths ago when I (jokingly to start with) suggested that the motto should be translated as "never tickle a sleeping Draco". It produced some interesting replies. Draco, - the Latin word, not 'im in Slytherin - , also occurs in PS when the first Gryffindor password we encounter is "Caput Draconis" (= dragon's head). From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Feb 6 22:55:55 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 22:55:55 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: <20040206224745.26574.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, udder_pen_dragon wrote: Rincewind: > > The first word of Hogwarts motto is DRAGO not DRACO as in Malfoy DRAGO means Dragon. As far as I remember Draco was a Roman General, but It Does not mean Dragon. Geoff: Sorry to disagree. In the drawing in the UK editions, the first word of the motto has a "C" with a noticeable serif. Draco is quite definitely Latin for dragon. From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Fri Feb 6 22:54:03 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:54:03 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus References: <20040206224745.26574.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004d01c3ed04$1e745b60$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90413 Rincewind The first word of Hogwarts motto is DRAGO not DRACO as in Malfoy DRAGO means Dragon. AS far as I remember Draco was a Roman General, but It Does not mean Dragon {Anne} "Draco" is the designation for the dragon constellation whose tail seperates Ursa Major from Ursa Minor. and, according to Cassell's Latin and English dictionary, it does indeed mean "a kind of snake or dragon" From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 23:09:27 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 23:09:27 -0000 Subject: Safety at Hogwarts, Dumbledore, Voldemort and other musings.. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90414 Dumbledore states in OOp that Harry must return to the Dursley's only once a year for the charm with Lilly's blood to work. So, what happens when he goes to the burrow? Or to Grimmauld Place? Or to Hogwarts? Is the protection applicable in those places as well? Ever since my first reading of PS I never questioned the safety at Howgarts. Hagrid says, (Not one to take too seriously, I know : ) ) that Gringott's is the safest place in the world, except maybe Hogwarts. Now, we know there are all sorts of charms protecting Hogwarts from muggles, but what about the rest of the wizarding world? In PS- Voldemort's spirit or whatever he was, lived in the school for nearly a year. Why didn't anyone pick up on that? In COS- The basilisk is set loose, and Dumbledore and Hagrid are forced out- In POA- Sirius got into the school, the gryffindor tower and the dormitory. Not to mention that he lived on the grounds all year as a dog- and the Dementors were stationed right outside! In GOF- Mad Eye was a fake, and Rita Skeeter had no trouble, in the beginning, of getting on the grounds. She was banned a little way into the TWT, according to Hagrid, but she buzzed in anyway, didn't she? Now, up until Voldemort's resurrection, these incidents serve to remind me that Hogwarts really isn't that safe. We know that PEOPLE can't apparate inside the grounds, but Dobby and Fawkes have proven that this rule doesn't apply to them. Crouch Sr. got onto the grounds. Madam Maxime and Karkaroff introducted two new ways of getting into Hogwarts. The triwizard cup was a portkey. It seems that people, as long as they're not apparating, can pretty much come and go as they please at Hogwarts. Not to mention the fact that six underage wizards flew! invisible threstals right out of the grounds...... Voldemort had to have known that Dumbledore was kicked out of school in OOP. If Dumbledore was the reason why LV didn't take the school the first time, AND If people can come and go to Hogwarts, AND knowing now why LV was after Harry in the first place, why didn't LV just send a couple of death eaters to Hogwarts to kidnap Harry, after Dumbledore left? Delores would've given directions to the portrait hole without batting an eye..... In the MOM- hall of prophesy, Lucius says something along the lines of 'the dark lord wondered why you had not come to listen to the prophesy yet' - what he was saying is that Voldemort assumed that Harry knew of the prophesy- if LV thought that Harry knew what the prophesy said- why didn't he just send someone to hogwarts and force it out of him? Which makes me wonder, what else is keeping LV out of Hogwarts? Would it be easier to take him from the dursley's or Hogwarts? Also, in those 24 hours, or however long it was between James' and Lilly's murder and the arrival of Harry at Privet Drive, what if Dumbledore was putting the necessary 'blood' in all of the places it would need to be, to keep Harry safe? Part of his 'plan'? Living quarters/Blood protection for Harry for the next ten years: Lilly's sister Living quarters/Blood protection for the seven years at Hogwarts: ? Maybe that's why Dumbledore can't leave the school... and we are wondering where he goes in the summer...maybe nowhere.. maybe in order for the charm to work DD has to stay at the school. What I'm speculating is, of course, whether or not Harry has blood relatives at Hogwarts/burrow/grimmauld place. Dumbledore says no. Dumbledore never lies. But, I've seen some people post that 'Dumbledore omits certain things'. When Harry asked DD in his first year why Voldemort wanted to kill him- Dumbledore doesn't 'basically' tell him the truth- but omit the part about the prophesy's existence- he flat out tells him that he can't tell him. Dumbledore flat out told Harry that he was delivering him to his mother's last blood relatives. So, what does that do to my theory? Crushes it :) But, it's still fun speculating! From belijako at online.no Sat Feb 7 00:41:02 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:41:02 -0000 Subject: CoS-clue quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90415 Mandy wrote: There is excitement on MuggleNet about the discovery of a new clue concerning the Chamber of Secrets. And JKR herself said she almost gave it all away in book 2. Berit replies: Please; could anyone tell me where to find the interview where Rowling said this about the clues of book 2? I can't find it. Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Feb 7 00:42:11 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:42:11 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus Message-ID: <1c4.14b33948.2d558e63@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90416 In a message dated 2/6/2004 5:56:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, udderpd at yahoo.co.uk writes: The first word of Hogwarts motto is DRAGO not DRACO as in Malfoy DRAGO means Dragon. AS far as I remember Draco was a Roman General, but It Does not mean Dragon. *************** Sherrie here: No, it's "Draco", and it does mean "dragon". However, I don't think it's referring to Ferretboy. I've always read it in a more...metaphorical way, as in "Don't play with what you don't understand." But that's just me. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From belijako at online.no Sat Feb 7 01:02:17 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:02:17 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90417 Carol wrote: Well, a "sleeping" (formerly complacent) Draco has certainly been stirred to active malice. Not that I think that's the meaning of the motto, but "Draco" does mean "dragon." "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus". I think it is a very good motto. I'm quite impressed with Rowling for making it up (she has made it up, right; or is it an old Chinese saying or something? :-) In Norwegian we have a similar saying: "Do not wake a sleeping bear". I think the Hogwarts motto conveys that one should never underestimate one's opponent; provocative action might not be a wise move even though your enemy at the moment seems quite harmless and dormant... A dragon is best monitored and controlled sleeping; you don't want to find yourself in the situation of facing one that's awake. I believe Harry will find out just how true the school motto is in the next two books... Right at the end of OoP he did "tickle" a sleeping dragon. Reading the conversation between Harry and Draco in the Entrance Hall makes me quite sure Draco will come back in book 6 considerably more dangerous than he has ever been. I wish Harry hadn't tickled that dragon... Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 01:54:03 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:54:03 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90418 Rincewind: The first word of Hogwarts motto is DRAGO not DRACO as in Malfoy DRAGO means Dragon. As far as I remember Draco was a Roman General, but It Does not mean Dragon. Geoff: Sorry to disagree. In the drawing in the UK editions, the first word of the motto has a "C" with a noticeable serif. Draco is quite definitely Latin for dragon. Carol: It's also a constellation (Draco, the Dragon). Probably his mother named him as part of the Black tradition of naming children after celestial objects. Andromeda is a constellation; Sirius, Regulus, and Bellatrix are stars. Not sure how that might tie in with the motto, though. Maybe there's some connection with astrology or divination: "Mars is red tonight." BTW, the first Draco I'm aware of (really Drako, but I can't use Greek letters here) was Greek, the Athenian tyrant from whom the adjective Draconian (harsh) was derived. And, yes, his name meant "dragon," too. Carol, who can't find the motto in the American editions but does remember a bit of high school Latin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 02:19:13 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 02:19:13 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: <1c4.14b33948.2d558e63@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90419 Sherrie here: No, it's "Draco", and it does mean "dragon". However, I don't think it's referring to Ferretboy. I've always read it in a more...metaphorical way, as in "Don't play with what you don't understand." But that's just me. Or "Let sleeping dogs lie," especially if their name is Fluffy! Siriusly, er, seriously, I agree that it's metaphorical but have no idea who or what the sleeping dragon is. Carol, who was only joking about it referring to Draco From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 02:11:53 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 02:11:53 -0000 Subject: Harry's blood relatives (Was: Safety at Hogwarts, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90420 "lizvega2" wrote: > Dumbledore says no. Dumbledore never lies. But, I've seen some > people post that 'Dumbledore omits certain things'. When Harry asked > DD in his first year why Voldemort wanted to kill him- Dumbledore > doesn't 'basically' tell him the truth- but omit the part about the > prophesy's existence- he flat out tells him that he can't tell him. > > Dumbledore flat out told Harry that he was delivering him to his > mother's last blood relatives. Carol: First, interesting observations on the safety of Hogwarts. I'm not sure what to say there, except that I'm pretty sure that Snape is keeping an eye on Harry. I'll have to think about that one. But as to DD's statement that Harry has no blood relations other than Petunia. As I've said before, Lily's parents were Muggles who could have Muggle relatives that DD would not be aware of. Nor would he be aware of any magical children those Muggle relatives might have if they were under eleven years old. But I'm pretty sure that a blood relative of Harry's will show up at Hogwarts in Book 6--a supposed Muggle boy named Mark Evans who will be Harry's second cousin or something along those lines. I'm not saying that Dumbledore lies--only that he doesn't know everything. Carol (who also thinks that Mark Evans will have green eyes) From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sat Feb 7 02:26:05 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 20:26:05 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus References: Message-ID: <000c01c3ed21$bd8f61a0$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90421 {Carol} Or "Let sleeping dogs lie," especially if their name is Fluffy! Siriusly, er, seriously, I agree that it's metaphorical but have no idea who or what the sleeping dragon is. {Anne} Perhaps it is actaully a warning for those who would attack Hogwarts or its students (and former students) as well as sleeping inhabitants....after all, it is a castle....you know, those things built for defence in war time oh so long ago? ^^; After all, whether it's a Teacher (McGonagall, Dumbly, Snape), a Syltherin (Draco), Gryffindor (Harry), etc....or even one of the ghosts (Would you want to mess with the Bloody Baron....or even Myrtle for that point...), there's some pretty formidable people being 'spit out' of that school....(Even old Moldy Voldy himself).... Anne From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 03:14:45 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 03:14:45 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90422 This isn't just going to be a short list of possible ships. I have been thinking lately, from different actions in the books, small statements and feelings the charactars give off. Harry and Hermoine definitely have a very close emotional situation. They have and always will be there for eachother. Ron and Hermoine, on the other hand, seem to actually show signs of jelousy toward eachother. In opposition to this, is Ron and Hermoine's inability to communicate, get along, and be totally comfortable with eachother as Harry and Hermoine are. I forsee, this is totally my opinion, that Hermione and Ron will have some sort of relationship. Most likely it will be fairly short, and will end from their differences, bickering, etc. But while this is going on, Harry will start to realize what he is missing when Hermoine is with Ron. Hermione wouldn't be there for him all the time as she used to be. Harry will start to realize his feelings for her and become slightly jelous. After Hermoine and Ron end, things will happen between Harry and Hermoine to make them realize their feelings for eachother. These just seem to be what I get while reading the books, and it is my opinion alone. Does anyone agree or disagree, or have their own theories? Andrew From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 04:13:38 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 04:13:38 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90423 Mandy said So, perhaps the school is the sleeping dragon, or has a dragon under it. In the Chamber of Secrets perhaps? There is excitement on MuggleNet about the discovery of a new clue concerning the Chamber of Secrets. And JKR herself said she almost gave it all away in book 2. What if the monster is not the Basilisk (he was just a pet), but a Dragon? Where is this quote? Could someone please direct me to it? Andrew From armadillof at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 20:53:50 2004 From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 20:53:50 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90424 "sawsan_issa" wrote: > > This motto has always been funny to me. I thought it was supposed to > > be be funny until recently when I started to take everything in the HP > > series seriously. SO, does anyone think that this will have an > > important role in the book? Does anyone think that someone has been > > tickling a sleeping dragon, and that's the cause of all the meyhem and > > Lord Voldie, etc? Carol wrote: > Well, a "sleeping" (formerly complacent) Draco has certainly been > stirred to active malice. Not that I think that's the meaning of the > motto, but "Draco" does mean "dragon." Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus can be interpreted as a 'rough' latin. (Few exceptions such as nunquam=numquam; slight spelling modifications et al). I interpret it generally as meaning "the snake never sleep peacefully". draco=snake nunquam=never dormiens=sleep titillandus=peacefully From pfsch at gmx.de Fri Feb 6 21:58:26 2004 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 22:58:26 +0100 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter 10, "Luna Lovegood". In-Reply-To: <1074559665.11960.29214.m1@yahoogroups.com> References: <1074559665.11960.29214.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <1867327849.20040206225826@gmx.de> No: HPFGUIDX 90425 Hi Meri, Meri wrote: I am not sure how much of JKR's writing is influenced by what the fans expect to see, but this chapter does seem to be planting things for the future. [...] This only seems to tell me that there will be further significance to Luna Lovegood to the plot, and like some of these characters, she may be more than she seems. I know that there has been speculation that Luna is a Seer, but I need more info/cannon before I buy that one. Peter now: My prediction - though improbable I must admit - is one of the "who will end up in love with whom" kind. Harry might fall in love with Luna in a future book. It does not seem that way right now though. But he has been an outcast for long episodes in his life and seeks company with many not fully accepted members of WW, too, think of Lupin, Sirius ... Luna, on the other hand, appears to bright (since in Ravenclaw) though a bit crazy and is described good looking to my accord (well, if you take away butterbeer corks and stuff). She shows courage, has seen death, and we might see they've got more in common than meets the eye, soon. Well, just in case Harry/Hermione and Harry/Ginny doesn't work out... ;) Speaking of predictions I'm wondering what Trelawney's third prediction might say. Bye Peter (http://www.setrok.de) From kagome at tiscali.it Fri Feb 6 23:16:08 2004 From: kagome at tiscali.it (Kagome) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:16:08 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: <004d01c3ed04$1e745b60$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> References: <20040206224745.26574.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <004d01c3ed04$1e745b60$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20040207000604.03eaf288@pop.tiscali.it> No: HPFGUIDX 90426 Rincewind > >The first word of Hogwarts motto is DRAGO not DRACO as in Malfoy DRAGO means >Dragon. AS far as I remember Draco was a Roman General, but It Does not mean >Dragon > >{Anne} > >"Draco" is the designation for the dragon constellation whose tail seperates >Ursa Major from Ursa Minor. >and, according to Cassell's Latin and English dictionary, it does indeed >mean "a kind of snake or dragon" Let's try to put order in this mess =P Draco: Latin word that means Dragon (YES it DOES mean Dragon. I studied Latin for 5 years, so you can trust my words. Draco, draconis, draconi, draconem, draco dracone etc. etc. For people who don't know, these are the cases of the singular Latin declination of the word "Draco", respectively Nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative, ablative). By the way: its spelling is "Drahco" and not Dray-co. At least in latin. Draco: name of a star in a constellation (yes, it's true, even though I don't remember the constellation) Draco indeed was a Roman general Drago: Italian word that means Dragon. I'm Italian so you *can* trust me. In the Hogwarts motto the word indeed means "Dragon", although it may be a subtle way to implicate a "let sleep the sleeping Draco", in which case it means that there's a reason why JKR hasn't still characterized a lot Draco, and that there's a reason for Lucius to have been sent to Azkaban ... what if this "tickles the sleeping Draco"? Probably this is why JKR said not to get too fond on Draco. I don't know what is Draco's fate in canon, but I won't ever repent to be a Draco's fan :) -- Kagome http://www.fanfiction.it http://www.inuyasha.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 03:27:52 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 03:27:52 -0000 Subject: Safety at Hogwarts, Dumbledore, Voldemort and other musings.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90427 lizvega2 wrote: > Dumbledore states in OOp that Harry must return to the Dursley's > only once a year for the charm with Lilly's blood to work. So, what > happens when he goes to the burrow? Or to Grimmauld Place? Or to > Hogwarts? Is the protection applicable in those places as well? > > Ever since my first reading of PS I never questioned the safety at > Howgarts. Hagrid says, (Not one to take too seriously, I know : ) ) > that Gringott's is the safest place in the world, except maybe > Hogwarts. Now, we know there are all sorts of charms protecting > Hogwarts from muggles, but what about the rest of the wizarding > world? Hitomi: This was an interesting post, and it brought up points I've always wondered about myself. We pretty much know Harry is vulnerable when he isn't in the Dursleys' house, or isn't at Hogwarts. Which is why DD is having Harry constantly followed, even during Hogsmeade weekends. And is also why he had a guard when he was leaving the Dursleys'. Though I think after his fifth year, DD will have someone else follow Harry besides Dung. > In PS- Voldemort's spirit or whatever he was, lived in the school > for nearly a year. Why didn't anyone pick up on that? Hitomi: I wouldn't be surprised if DD did know, he knew everything Harry and the trio were up to. And Voldemort wasn't a huge threat, he was relying on Quirrell. Plus, DD at least knew LV was active, hence all the protections around the Stone. But I think DD knew LV was limited in what he could do, not having an actual body and only being a spirit. So whether or not he knew it was Quirrell, as long as he watched over Harry and the Stone, he probably figured things would be fine. And he was right, except for he almost fell for that fake notice from London, but DD being DD, he figured it out. > In COS- The basilisk is set loose, and Dumbledore and Hagrid are > forced out- Hitomi: Except DD knew it was LV the whole time, he just couldn't figure out how. Then he learns it was a memory of Tom Riddle, and it makes sense. Plus, the chamber was built into Hogwarts. Kind of hard to keep the basilisk out when it's supposed to be there, at least from Salazar Slytherin's point of view, especially since only the Heir can awaken it, and only a Parseltongue can actually get into the chamber. And DD left Fawkes, and Fawkes can send messages, which he apparently did, because DD showed up that same night. > In POA- Sirius got into the school, the gryffindor tower and the > dormitory. Not to mention that he lived on the grounds all year as a > dog- and the Dementors were stationed right outside! Hitomi: Again, Sirius knew things about the school most do not, and he was an unregistered animagus, which DD didn't know about. I doubt DD watched the Marauders as closely as he has watched Harry. The Dementors are blind, and they can miss things, otherwise Sirius wouldn't have been able to escape Azkaban. I look at it this way, because DD didn't know about Scabbers, either. DD keeps those around him whom he believes will be useful (friends/allies). He brought Lupin there that year, not only as a DADA teacher, but also probably due to Sirius' breakout. Lupin knew Sirius was an animagus, and though he didn't tell DD, because he felt guilty, I think if Sirius had ever seemed a serious threat, he would have told DD. Lupin knew. DD made a good judgement about Lupin. And DD and Lupin knew there were things about what happened the night of the Potters' deaths that they didn't know, and Sirius only ever attacked during Harry's third year when Harry wasn't around. Until the Shrieking Shack. And that is when Lupin shows up. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion DD knew a lot more about what was going on. Like with the time-turner. He knew Harry and Hermione were outside Hagrid's cabin, he had to have known. And he purposely distracted Macnair. My only thing is how on earth did he know. There is a lot about DD as of yet unanswered. > In GOF- Mad Eye was a fake, and Rita Skeeter had no trouble, in the > beginning, of getting on the grounds. She was banned a little way > into the TWT, according to Hagrid, but she buzzed in anyway, didn't > she? Hitomi: Again, we're dealing with an unregistered animagus, and Hermione did eventually figure it out. And I doubt DD was seriously concerned about Rita, otherwise I think he would have gone to more extreme measures of keeping her out. He basically just officially said, "You are not allowed here." But he didn't really try to physically keep her out. And with Moody, DD did realize it wasn't him in the end. And in that, we're dealing with an active LV that no one knew about. DD probably did panic when Harry and Cedric vanished, it wasn't foreseen. But he figured out LV's entire plot on his own, he just wanted Barty Crouch Jr.'s confirmation. DD always knows far more than we do. > Now, up until Voldemort's resurrection, these incidents serve to > remind me that Hogwarts really isn't that safe. We know that PEOPLE > can't apparate inside the grounds, but Dobby and Fawkes have proven > that this rule doesn't apply to them. Crouch Sr. got onto the > grounds. Madam Maxime and Karkaroff introducted two new ways of > getting into Hogwarts. The triwizard cup was a portkey. It seems > that people, as long as they're not apparating, can pretty much come > and go as they please at Hogwarts. Not to mention the fact that six > underage wizards flew! invisible threstals right out of the > grounds...... > > Voldemort had to have known that Dumbledore was kicked out of school > in OOP. If Dumbledore was the reason why LV didn't take the school > the first time, AND If people can come and go to Hogwarts, AND > knowing now why LV was after Harry in the first place, why didn't LV > just send a couple of death eaters to Hogwarts to kidnap Harry, > after Dumbledore left? Delores would've given directions to the > portrait hole without batting an eye..... Hitomi: Well, I'm totally with you, in that Hogwarts probably isn't as safe as we'd like, but it has to be sort of open, is it a school. And according to Hermione and "Hogwarts... A History," there are protections all around the place. But getting to your examples, Dobby is a house-elf, I don't think the same rules apply, which is why the WW's underestimation of the house-elves is dangerous. Just look at the situation with Kreacher. And Fawkes is... well, Fawkes. We know the same rules don't apply. Phoenixes are powerful magical creatures, and rarely domesticated. A dragon could probably break into Hogwarts, but it isn't likely, considering they can't be controlled. Crouch Sr. walked onto the grounds, he wasn't a threat, and I highly doubt he could have just marched into the school without someone noticing. One of the protections around the grounds could be anyone with malicious intent isn't allowed in. Just a thought. Maxime and Karkaroff were expected and invited, and I doubt many people would willingly go through the lake. There are some creepy things down there, and unless allowed, I doubt many could use that method of transportation. Too dangerous. I don't think that squid is just for show. The portkey was activated by fake-Moody, who was welcomed and not suspected until too late. Again, though, we're dealing with one of LV's schemes, and they usually have merit, unfortunately. My theory for why LV didn't go after Harry once DD left? It would have been stupid and highly dangerous. LV was working to get the prophecy (to learn how to destroy Harry), his main goal wasn't actually Harry himself, and once he figured out he needed Harry to pick up the prophecy, why bother fetching him when you can get him to voluntarily come? Which is what LV did. Besides which, it would be a rather blatant sign that he was back if he sent a couple of Death Eaters to kidnap Harry. He was trying to keep his resurrection a secret, and Harry isn't completly helpless. The teachers are still there, and I know DD wouldn't have left without someway of continuing to look after Harry. Such as Occlumency, which didn't work, but Snape was still there. The portraits report to DD, the house-elves report to DD, and Fawkes can send warnings. Plus there's Harry's own abilities and the DA, which seemed to be at least mildly affective against the Death Eaters at the end of book 5. Plus, LV already tried that last year, and it didn't work. The Order would now be watching for something like that to happen. > In the MOM- hall of prophesy, Lucius says something along the lines > of 'the dark lord wondered why you had not come to listen to the > prophesy yet' - what he was saying is that Voldemort assumed that > Harry knew of the prophesy- if LV thought that Harry knew what the > prophesy said- why didn't he just send someone to hogwarts and force > it out of him? Hitomi: Again, same reasons as above. And I also think LV wanted to hear the prophecy in its original entirety. And he did succeed in getting Harry to voluntarily come. Harry just ended up thwarting him again, even if it was an accident. I think DD has some degree of faith in Harry's ability to stay alive. > Which makes me wonder, what else is keeping LV out of Hogwarts? > Would it be easier to take him from the dursley's or Hogwarts? Hitomi: Personally, I'd say Hogwarts, if DD isn't around. And now that everyone knows LV is back, LV can use open force without risking anything. If I was DD, I'd probably lock Harry in his aunt and uncle's house, and then when the summer was over, follow him around everywhere. And DD has ways of disappearing that we don't know of. Like after Umbridge caught the DA, in the Headmaster's office. > Also, in those 24 hours, or however long it was between James' and > Lilly's murder and the arrival of Harry at Privet Drive, what if > Dumbledore was putting the necessary 'blood' in all of the places it > would need to be, to keep Harry safe? Part of his 'plan'? Hitomi: I think the "necessary blood" has to be a living person, like Petunia and Dudley, but this an interesting theory. > Living quarters/Blood protection for Harry for the next ten years: > Lilly's sister > > Living quarters/Blood protection for the seven years at Hogwarts: ? > Maybe that's why Dumbledore can't leave the school... and we are > wondering where he goes in the summer...maybe nowhere.. maybe in > order for the charm to work DD has to stay at the school. > > What I'm speculating is, of course, whether or not Harry has blood > relatives at Hogwarts/burrow/grimmauld place. Hitomi: Definitely possible, though we know all the Potters are dead (what happened to Harry's grandparents anyway?), and the blood has to be on his mother's side. And again, there is a lot about DD and his powers that we just don't know. > Dumbledore says no. Dumbledore never lies. But, I've seen some > people post that 'Dumbledore omits certain things'. When Harry asked > DD in his first year why Voldemort wanted to kill him- Dumbledore > doesn't 'basically' tell him the truth- but omit the part about the > prophesy's existence- he flat out tells him that he can't tell him. > > Dumbledore flat out told Harry that he was delivering him to his > mother's last blood relatives. > > So, what does that do to my theory? Crushes it :) But, it's still > fun speculating! Hitomi: I agree, it is fun speculating :-) I also agree with Carol's response in which she said DD doesn't necessarily know everything, because we know he doesn't. But there is also a lot about DD and Hogwarts we still don't know. So, I just trust that DD is doing everything in his ability to keep Harry safe, but I also think DD is putting more trust in Harry himself, one of the reasons he told Harry the prophecy - Harry had proved he was long since ready to hear it. And besides, Hermione is usually always right, when she isn't emotional. In conclusion, I think Harry is safer than we have been led to believe. But again... the war is just about to start. Oy, that was long! Ja ne! ~ Hitomi From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 03:49:29 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 03:49:29 -0000 Subject: gum wrappers (Was: How many people know the prophecy?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90428 > Carol wrote: > Probably one for each visit, so thirteen or fourteen, depending on > when he made his first visit--twice that if he visits in summer, too. > (I doubt that he visits more often than that. It would be pointless > and very depressing. (Maybe it's Neville who gives his mom the gum, > and she gives him the used wrapper back?) > > Carol, who wants to know what "ohayo minna" means Hitomi: Hey Carol! The gum wrapper thread has been beaten to death, I just think everyone agrees there's something funny about them. Or maybe Neville just keeps them as a gift. It does make you wonder though how much of Mrs. Longbottom's mind is still intact. (And why would you give an unstable person gum, of all things? Wouldn't plain candy - no hard candy - be better?) 'Ohayo' is a typical morning greeting. Just as 'konnichiwa' is your general hello. 'Minna' means everyone/everybody. '-san' is an honorific, reserved for strangers to familiar acquaintances. Other words I think I have used: 'gomen' means sorry, 'gomen nasai' means "I'm very sorry." 'Ja ne' is goodbye, unlike 'sayonara' which most English-speaking people are familiar with, which actually means farewell. Sorry if this has confused anyone, I have a tendency to think mostly in Japanese when home, my mother (mother - 'haha-yue,' or referred to as 'okaa-san'/'okaa-chan') understands English, she just doesn't like to use it. Some words and phrases I never think in English, unless I remind myself to. I have Japanese versions of Harry Potter, though, which are a trip, because some slang and humor just don't translate well. It's weird comparing them to the English originals. ~ Hitomi, whose name actually means 'iris,' like the part of the eye, not the flower, and who grew up speaking both languages From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 05:29:14 2004 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 05:29:14 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90429 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > Or "Let sleeping dogs lie," especially if their name is Fluffy! > Siriusly, er, seriously, I agree that it's metaphorical but have no > idea who or what the sleeping dragon is. Talisman, wearing a FEATHERBOA, ready to tickle anything that comes her way, observes: No reason why a metaphor can't be played out in the plot. There is always Harry's little observation that "Deliberately causing mayhem in Snape's potions class was about as safe as poking a sleeping dragon in the eye." (CoS 186) Nice comparison, eh? Snape/sleeping dragon. Snape rocks. Draco Malfoy is small change. And, for those of the vampish inclination, "Dracul" also means dragon, in Romanian. Talisman, who, now that she thinks of it, wouldn't mind having a pet dragon, either. From starropal at hotmail.com Sat Feb 7 07:17:32 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:17:32 -0600 Subject: FILK We'll Never Tell... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90430 Can you believe there's only 6 Dursley FILKs? What a travesty! To the tune of I'll Never Tell from Buffy the Musical: Once More With Feeling _Well Never Tell_ (as sung by Petunia and Vernon Dursley) by Star Opal Petunia: This is the man with looks like a mammal And he's all mine Our claim to fame is the plain and the normal And that's just fine He's got an average biz We have one perfect, lovely kid The only trouble is... I'll never tell Vernon: She is the one, my ordinary hon So conventional Wonderful tyke, Dudley's bright Always right Routine Quiet Routine And I love them both so Our lawn always perfectly mowed There's just one thing that-- No. Ill never tell Both: 'Cause there's nothing to tell Petunia: He's weird Vernon: He's freaky Petunia: He's also kinda sneaky Vernon: He knows these bloody Weasleys That I can't describe Petunia: His hair, its messy Vernon: He doesn't know reality Petunia: His parents got blown up By some Lord Thingy Both: At times he's kind of scary Vernon: Just glad summer's temporary Petunia: Then things get back to ordinary Vernon: Has a common name like Harry Both: But we seem very well 'Cause, God knows, We'll never tell Petunia: When things get rough he He just hides behind his stuffy That makes Vernon 'bit huffy Cause he uses that - you know Vernon: He's odd He's creepy It all goes really deeply His mother- Petunia: Don't mention Lily! Vernon: Sorry my dear, its so She-- Petunia: Look at him! He's actin' crazy! *Harry just walks by and the Dursleys get hysterical* Both: You know Vernon: It's quite appalling Petunia: His friends tried calling Vernon: He is the worst kind of weirdo A godfather that's a wacko He ruins the joy of Quiet routine Petunia: He's strange Vernon: Very strange Petunia He's got this owl with mange Vernon: That's why Ill never Let the thing out of that cage Petunia: I hate this thing Its dirty and obscene I know there'll come the day I'll throw the whole lot out Both: We tried To make him decent They died We took him into our home Vernon: Did all that we could to fix him Petunia: Didn't work, try to keep him hidden Vernon: And now he's going to that school That's run by that senile old fool Petunia: When the worlds become all smudgy What will happen to our Duddy? Vernon: Is he quirky? Petunia: Is he schemin'? Vernon: Is he possibly a demon? Both: He could really make our lives In Little Whinging a hell So, thank God, We'll never tell We swear That well never tell Vernon: My lips Are sealed Petunia: I take the fifth Vernon: Nothing to see, move it along Both: Well never Tell _________________________________________________________________ Plan your next US getaway to one of the super destinations here. http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Feb 7 07:45:48 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 07:45:48 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90431 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Sherrie: > No, it's "Draco", and it does mean "dragon". However, I don't think > it's referring to Ferretboy. I've always read it in a > more...metaphorical way, as in "Don't play with what you don't > understand." But that's just me. > > Or "Let sleeping dogs lie," especially if their name is Fluffy! > Siriusly, er, seriously, I agree that it's metaphorical but have no > idea who or what the sleeping dragon is. Geoff: I suspect that the saying will have been Hogwart's motto for a very long time - long before DM appears on the scene. It may be one of JKR's "coincidences" that it can be applied to our little friend... As Sherrie says, it's much in the same category as "let sleeping dogs lie". I was suddenly reminded that Bilbo invented a proverb in "The Hobbit" - "never laugh at live dragons" - after he got singed by Smaug! From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Feb 7 07:55:42 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 07:55:42 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040207000604.03eaf288@pop.tiscali.it> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90432 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kagome wrote: Kagome: > Let's try to put order in this mess =P > > Draco: Latin word that means Dragon (YES it DOES mean Dragon. I studied > Latin for 5 years, so you can trust my words. Draco, draconis, draconi, > draconem, draco dracone etc. etc. For people who don't know, these are the > cases of the singular Latin declination of the word "Draco", respectively > Nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative, ablative). By the way: > its spelling is "Drahco" and not Dray-co. At least in latin. > Draco: name of a star in a constellation (yes, it's true, even though I > don't remember the constellation) > Draco indeed was a Roman general > Drago: Italian word that means Dragon. I'm Italian so you *can* trust me. Geoff: I too studied Latin for 5 years and consider in retrospect it was an incredibly valuable thing to do - though it didn't seem so at the time. Interestingly, we learned our cases in a different order. I learned them as Nom, Voc, Acc, Gen, Dat and Abl. Other languages. My dictionary gives me "drakon" as the Greek origin. I believe the Swedish word is draken - their air force used to have SAAB Drakens as part of their equipment. Friends Malfoy and Norbert have certainly got the posts flying around!! From mkeller01 at alltel.net Sat Feb 7 13:42:00 2004 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 13:42:00 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > This isn't just going to be a short list of possible ships. I > have been thinking lately, from different actions in the books, > small statements and feelings the charactars give off. Harry and > Hermoine definitely have a very close emotional situation. They have > and always will be there for eachother. Ron and Hermoine, on the > other hand, seem to actually show signs of jelousy toward eachother. > In opposition to this, is Ron and Hermoine's inability to > communicate, get along, and be totally comfortable with eachother as > Harry and Hermoine are. > I forsee, this is totally my opinion, that Hermione and Ron > will have some sort of relationship. Most likely it will be fairly > short, and will end from their differences, bickering, etc. But > while this is going on, Harry will start to realize what he is > missing when Hermoine is with Ron. Hermione wouldn't be there for > him all the time as she used to be. Harry will start to realize his > feelings for her and become slightly jelous. After Hermoine and Ron > end, things will happen between Harry and Hermoine to make them > realize their feelings for eachother. > These just seem to be what I get while reading the books, and > it is my opinion alone. Does anyone agree or disagree, or have their > own theories? > > Andrew You're right, Andrew. It all comes down to interpretation. And, In my opinion, which pairing or person you most identify with. Are you more like Hermione, Ginny or Luna? Would you rather be involved with someone like Hermione, Ginny or Luna? I'm an avid H/G shipper. I definitely identify more with Ginny. And on occasion, I'm ashamed to admit that I find myself twisting canon to suit my shipping preferences. I've also seen the R/H's and H/H's doing the same thing. We could go on and on (and we often do.) That's why I normally avoid ship debating. Raises my blood pressure to boot. So, in a lazy/cowardly fashion, I'm just gonna write what I see happening in canon and what I want to happen without listing the reasons why or quoting canon (am I in for a slapping?): OBHWF and N/L. Very Austinesque. The King and the Queen (R/H), the Sun and the Moon (G/H), the Eagle and Toad...above and below (L/N.) Very alchemyesque. Toad (who had to get this off her chest and is now going back into self imposed exile) shipping poll anyone? From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat Feb 7 14:19:34 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 14:19:34 -0000 Subject: What does Aunt Marge know? (was Colonel Fubster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90434 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > Many of us believe we're going to meet Mark Evans again in book 6, > revealed as a wizard and enrolled at Hogwarts. -Anyone ever wondered whether old Colonel Fubster is going to pop up again? Colonel Fubster is the old neighbour of aunt Marge who takes care of her dogs when she is visiting her brother Vernon. This is what we know about him: > (snip) > > I hope you agree with me that it is clear from the text that it was > Harry's anger who made the wine glass shatter in Aunt Marge's hand. > That's why I find it very interesting that the exact same thing > happened in the presence of old Colonel Fubster... (snip) Carolyn: It seems that JKR has confirmed in an interview that Colonel Fubster is a muggle (see down thread), but I have always wondered whether Aunt Marge knows more about Lily Evans than it seems. In the chapter where the wine glass shatters (POA, Ch. 2) she says: 'You mustn't blame yourself for the way the boy's turned out, Vernon'...'If there's something rotten on the INSIDE, there's nothing anyone can do about it'. (Caps here indicate JKR's own italics in the UK version). Then there's her nasty dog remark: 'If there's something wrong with the bitch, there'll be something wrong with the pup -' And a page or so later: '..but your sister was a bad egg. They turn up in the best families. Then she ran off with a wastrel and here's the result right in front of us.' It seems that she has some strong basis for disliking Lily, over and beyond Lily going off to marry James, who it seems from the subsequent conversation, she does not know much about ('This Potter....you never told me what he did?'). We don't know if Petunia married Vernon before or after Lily married James, but it seems possible from the text that Petunia might have been married first, and therefore Marge, as newly-related family might have become aware that Lily was magical, and that her parents were proud of it (Vernon certainly knows). Petunia's and Lily's parents also appear to be dead (or Harry surely would have been put in his grandparents' care), and if, as we all suspect, they died in a Voldy-related WW incident, Marge might be aware of some of the details of this, as Petunia might have found it difficult to cover up the death of her parents completely. So, what might be the result of Marge knowing something ? Would she try to use the knowledge to 'deal with' Harry in some way ? Vernon must be pretty tense about Harry returning to Little Whinging after the events at the beginning of OoP, Dudley also. If Marge has been to visit whilst Harry was away at Hogwarts, she might have picked something up - easy to imagine Vernon trumpeting on in a row with Petunia in the bedroom, that 'the boy's got to go', and her overhearing. She's forceful and ruthless (she has puppies drowned) - she could gang up with Vernon to insist Petunia gets rid of Harry, and then his blood protection is no more. Although the Order are on the look out for Harry this time round, to make sure he is not so isolated, the Dursleys might still try to deal with the situation in some way that places Harry in danger. Finally, is it just me that sees the similarity in personality types between Fudge, Umbridge and the Dursleys ? All unpleasant, stupid individuals, dedicated to maintaining the status quo, even by the use of torture, abuse and cruelty ? From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 7 15:21:46 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 15:21:46 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90435 If Dumbledore is, indeed, an animagus, he must certainly have become so well before middle-age. If Sirius & Co. can achieve animagus status at the age of 15, I'm damn sure that DD, the greatest wizard of the age, could have done so, always assuming, of course, that he wanted to. Sylvia (who feels we have way too many animagi floating around already) From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Sat Feb 7 04:23:17 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 04:23:17 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: <000c01c3ed21$bd8f61a0$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90436 I think those ideas sound really good and make a lot of sense. WHen I first read it, I thought it was a funny way of saying "Don't push it." But, with all the references to Dragons and Snakes, I was thinking we should be watching out for something to be awakened. Now that I think of it, another possibility that I think was not mentioned, is perhaps now that Harry has seemed to have been pushed over the edge, he has been awakened, and now a whole lot of people are in trouble. At least that is the sappy hero story version. But there is one other person, for that matter, that has seemed to be "sleeping" but has been awakened near the middle of OotP. That person is Neville, who I think will be great soon (though I still won't buy into him being 'the One' because Harry was marked by Voldie). Sawsan From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 7 16:41:35 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 16:41:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Animagi and animals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90437 Thanks, Carol, for bringing up the subject of Snape's patronus and/or boggart. I have been wondering about this myself and came to the same conclusion that the boggart might be LV red in tooth and claw - as good a reason for not giving Snape the DADA job as any - but I haven't formed any definite idea about the patronus. Not a snake, surely. Anyone got any less conventional ideas? Sylvia From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 17:07:19 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 17:07:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Animagi and animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90438 Sylvia wrote: > Thanks, Carol, for bringing up the subject of Snape's patronus and/or > boggart. I have been wondering about this myself and came to the > same conclusion that the boggart might be LV red in tooth and claw - > as good a reason for not giving Snape the DADA job as any - but I > haven't formed any definite idea about the patronus. Not a snake, > surely. Anyone got any less conventional ideas? Neri now: Shouldn't Snape's patronus be a really large bat? Just kidding. I don't really believe that vampire thing. And in order to execute the patronus you need a happy memory. What would that be for Snape? I can't think of anything, unless it is the day James died, or the day Sirius died. Or was it Slytherin's seventh quidditch cup in a row? Neri From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Feb 7 20:16:37 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:16:37 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Animagi, and animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Pippin wrote: > > I think the animal companions and counterparts may represent a > > desire or ability that's being repressed. The more developed > > characters have more than one animal because they are >>more complex. > Carol: > I personally think that we know the pets (I can't say "animal > companions" without cringing, sorry) Oh, I was shooting for alliteration not pc-ness. But Hedwig, Buckbeak and the Thestrals are not pets, anyway, IMO. They're working animals. Carol: > All of which makes me wonder what Snape's "animal >companion" (pet? familiar?) was when he was a student. (I >know you'll say a bat, thoughI don't know if bats are allowed at >Hogwarts as anything but Halloween decorations. That didn't stop Lee from bringing a tarantula, or Ron from bringing Scabbers. Carol: >Imagine one flying along the corridors and teachers and > students screaming and running in all directions!) Surely witches and wizards aren't afraid of bats, except vampire bats of course Carol: >And what might his Patronus be? He probably doesn't know himself, as I doubt he's ever produced one. Not every wizard can manage a corporeal patronus. It's a rare feat. Carol: > In any case, he's the most complex character of all, so if the >theory that "the more developed characters have more than one >animal because they are more complex" is valid, it would have >to apply to him. David already pointed out that Snape has quite the collection of slimy things in jars. Presumably that's where the rat organs harvested by Harry and Ron and the horned toads harvested by Neville end up, along with the cockroaches. Note that bats, rats, cockroaches and toads are nocturnal. So that's hmm, vampirism, treachery, furtiveness and sexuality. (The RL horned toad is a variety of lizard, however JKR's reference to "frog guts" under Neville's fingernails makes it appear she had some sort of amphibian in mind.) Pippin who agrees with Carol about Snape's boggart From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sat Feb 7 21:57:40 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 21:57:40 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90440 Sawsan wrote: > This motto has always been funny to me. I thought it was supposed to > be be funny until recently when I started to take everything in the HP > series seriously. SO, does anyone think that this will have an > important role in the book? Does anyone think that someone has been > tickling a sleeping dragon, and that's the cause of all the meyhem and > Lord Voldie, etc? I *think* I've read every post in the latest go-round of this topic. Quite what the motto ('Draco is never interesting when asleep') means in the context of the series is tricky to work out. Another question is what it is referring to in the context of Hogwarts: why should a school have adopted this motto? Was it the four founders saying to the Muggle world that the 'sleeping' WW had been stirred up (by persecution) into defending itself by creating a school? (It seems reasonable to suppose that the most fundamental defensive action any culture or distinctive grouping can take is to start a school because that ensures survival through the generations.) If so it's rather negative, almost implying it would have been better for both parties for the WW not to crystallise and perpetuate a distinctive identity. However, *Dumbledore's* actions seem directly contrary to the motto, because he is consistently poking at the underbelly of the sleeping identity of the WW, criticising it and undermining 'wizarding pride'. It makes one wonder if Voldemort's following came into being in reaction to Dumbledore's activity, even if V himself was set on his path for more personal reasons. Perhaps Hermione was not the first to form a liberation movement with less wisdom than enthusiasm. David Draco's dorm has a nun who... oh, never mind From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 22:03:01 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 22:03:01 -0000 Subject: Encouraging news about book Six Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90441 Hope this is ok to do...I was at the HP Lexicon and read the following The Letter Box's Note from JKR Some of you oldbies may remember the Letter Box project from last spring, where hundreds of (mostly older teen and adult) fans sent letters to JK Rowling in a gorgeous box, all through the organizational work of Ali Wildgoose. Today, the text of JKR's letter to all of us whose letters were in that box was posted on the project's LiveJournal. In it, she expressed her gratitude for the letters, the wishes on the birth of her son, David, and the packaging, and said: David is indeed the main reason that i am horrendously behind on my correspondence. Well - David and book 6 which (before the press start up again with the writer's block stories) is flowing like a mountain stream. I am hoping this means the book may be out sooner than expected! Fran From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Feb 7 22:35:02 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 22:35:02 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > Sawsan wrote: > > > This motto has always been funny to me. I thought it was supposed > to > > be be funny until recently when I started to take everything in > the HP > > series seriously. SO, does anyone think that this will have an > > important role in the book? Does anyone think that someone has been > > tickling a sleeping dragon, and that's the cause of all the meyhem > and > > Lord Voldie, etc? David: > I *think* I've read every post in the latest go-round of this topic. > > Quite what the motto ('Draco is never interesting when asleep') > means in the context of the series is tricky to work out. > > Another question is what it is referring to in the context of > Hogwarts: why should a school have adopted this motto? Was it the > four founders saying to the Muggle world that the 'sleeping' WW had > been stirred up (by persecution) into defending itself by creating a > school? (It seems reasonable to suppose that the most fundamental > defensive action any culture or distinctive grouping can take is to > start a school because that ensures survival through the > generations.) If so it's rather negative, almost implying it would > have been better for both parties for the WW not to crystallise and > perpetuate a distinctive identity. > > However, *Dumbledore's* actions seem directly contrary to the motto, > because he is consistently poking at the underbelly of the sleeping > identity of the WW, criticising it and undermining 'wizarding > pride'. It makes one wonder if Voldemort's following came into > being in reaction to Dumbledore's activity, even if V himself was > set on his path for more personal reasons. Perhaps Hermione was not > the first to form a liberation movement with less wisdom than > enthusiasm. Geoff: It's fascinating the different line a thread can take when it resurfaces. Folk might like to drift back to a previous set of discussions which began at message 84472 with a thread entitled "Caput Draconis" and continued under a couple of other headings beginning with "Never tickle a sleeping dragon" at message 84482. From ajiva at yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 17:33:08 2004 From: ajiva at yahoo.com (Azeem Jiva) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:33:08 -0000 Subject: What's in the Chamber of Secrets that will come up later? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > I had read that JKR says that there is something in the Chamber of > Secrets that will play an important part in the books to come. That > has me on my path again of wondering what is in there? Is it that > there is something about the Chamber itself or in the book? I reread > the part about the Chamber, and the only things that seemed to stand > out were the 2 intwined snakes at the entrance that had emerald eyes > and seemed to be alive. Also, the huge statue of Slytherin and the > basilisk coming out of his mouth. Any ideas? Hi, Mugglenet just posted an interesting article, the summary is at: http://www.mugglenet.com/wwp/subplot-chamber.shtml But if you go to the main page there are more links there too From hufflepuff at pop.com.br Fri Feb 6 15:23:52 2004 From: hufflepuff at pop.com.br (hufflepuff0305) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 15:23:52 -0000 Subject: Sam is Back Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90444 Almar? for everyone in HPforGrownups: There and here back again is Samwise Weasley, directly from Brazil to HP4GrownUps, with a more (old) replies: ====================================================================== About: Neville's Spellcasting abilities and his wand ====================================================================== "I have in the past hypothisized that Neville's spell-casting ability, or lack thereof, was directly related to the fact that he was using someone else's wand. (...) My point here is this: after he received his new wand, his "own" wand his ability to use it improved." (Nicole) I believe you're right, although not completely. I believe that Neville's low spellcasting abilities was the result of: psychological block (caused by the magically-driven madness of your fathers) and the use of a not "chosen by" wand (is that right?). Your argument about the wand is valid, so valid that Ron's spellcasting abilities are very improved in Prisioner of Azkaban, cause he gains a new and "chosen by" wand. But, in OotP, we see that Neville has a very great improvement in your magical abilities after the Death Eaters' escape from Azkaban (remember: the Death Eaters that driven the Longbottom to a Crucio-induced madness, the Lestrange, had escaped). Neville saw that your fathars would be at risk, and then Neville has made a effort to learn more magic. Remember that Neville was the firts after Hermione that learned a spell (I believe that was 'Estupore' or 'Impedimenta'). ====================================================================== About: Stamps ====================================================================== "In the UK you can buy stamps in lots of different denominations from 1p upwards, so it would be perfectly possible to cover the envelope in stamps for less than ?1. Most common stamps are 1st class and 2nd class stamps which are (I think) 27p and 21p but those values could be wrong - I post anything that needs posting through work and they use a franking machine." (Kat Armstrong) I don't know if will interest for anyone, but here in Brazil this could also be made. Although we have some standard stamps for common posts (I belive, like the UK's 1st and 2nd Class), we have stamps based in the value, like "R$ 1,00" (more or less US$ 0.33), "R$ 0,50" (US$ 0,15, aprox.), etc... ====================================================================== About: Harry's Potions NEWT ====================================================================== "In OotP it was made clear that OWLs and NEWTs are conducted by the MoM, not by the Hogwarts teachers. Do you have to be in the official NEWT class in order to take the NEWT? Perhaps not, especially if the headmaster and deputy are both on your side." (Neri) I don't think so. Here in Brazil (okay, that's personal experience, but should be a good measure) when we want to go to University (I don't know about any other place in the world) we need to be approved in "vestibular" (that's in Portuguese), a test of your knowledge in Portuguese, Math, Physics, Biology, etc... But, although the test is made by the University, you don't need to study in the University for prepare yourself for "vestibular". Indeed, you could make preparatory courses, learn by autodidatics, etc... The NEWT classes is cited in all OotP. But I believe that Harry passed in your Potions OWL with the minimum that Snape want to be Harry in the class. And, with Hermione's and McGonagall's help, I believe that Harry with catch the good NEWT needed by him to be an Auror. ====================================================================== About: Snape's teaching method ====================================================================== "You could attempt to argue that Snape is doing what he thinks is best for Neville, but I honestly do see it as abuse. I'm fine with teachers who are tough on the kids, but Snape's treatment of Neville is too much. He doesn't just criticize his work; he treats him like dirt in front of his peers, and basically calls him stupid. A good teacher would want to make a student better at their subject and would recognize that these scare tactics are ineffective after a year or two. While Snape's methods may work for most, he's a failure at his profession (though admittedly it's probably not his calling) where some students are concerned. And I'm not particularly a fan of Neville, by the way. That treatment seems awful, though." (Devin) I will resume this in a very, VERY, preconceptual argument: Snape is Slytherin until his marrowbone! I will explain: I don't see nothing wrong in teachers that are harsh with students (some of my best teachers were harsh). But Snape is not harsh: he has, as we say in Brazil, "dois pesos e duas medidas" (two weights and two measures). In anything that he is involved, he wants (an does as more than possible) to prejudice everyone in favor of Slytherin. I didn't will have anything against Snape's teaching method if the measures were equal for everyone. But you could see in ALL BOOKS that Snape DELIBERATELY prejudice Gryffindor, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw in favor of Slytherin. I believe that McGonagall is harsh: she treats every student in the same terms (she takes point from Gryffindor when they make some mistake, gives extra work when they don't have the expected results, etc...). But McGonagall is a good teacher: he explain correctly everything. If anyone didn't learn, is the student fault only. We don't see any other teacher deliberately prejudicing students. And don't come with the "House Cup" argument: we NEVER seen Flitwick, McGonagall or Sprout deliberately prejudincing other houses' students in favor of their houses'. "By the way, I don't think a teacher needs to be cruel to prepare a student for adult life. They're going to find out the world is a mean place no matter what and many of their peers are going to confirm the presence of "disappoint, sarcasm, or criticism" in the world." (Devin) I believe that a good teacher should act with wisdom, give prizes (in any form) for good work and repreendish bad work. Simple that. It's a good way for anyone learn about consequences of his acts. "I was hopeless at the subject and I hated his guts for evermore because he, like Snape, took every opportunity to rub in the fact that you were not good." (Geoff) I have a teacher of Databases in my Computer Technic school that was Snapely at the core. He liked to rub for we the we are rubbish, we are less-than-nothing comparing with his oh-f$#@ing-lord-so-great experience. What a jerk! Snape is bad not because he is harsh (Snape is not harsh - at least with Slytherins), he is a bad teacher cause he is a mind ripper! He likes to make anyone that isn't Slytherin to feeling as dog poo! ====================================================================== About: Trelawney ====================================================================== "But I'm not so sure that Umbridge was under orders from Fudge via Malfoy to get rid of Trelawney. I think she merely saw Trelawney as an easy target, a clearly incompetent teacher whom she could use to display her authority and power as High Inquisitor. She tried to fire Hagrid for the same reason. I doubt that she was under orders to fire him because he could provide valuable information to Voldemort if he were captured and tortured." (Carol) I believe that Umbrigde could be a DE, in a more undercover way. If she fired Trelawney, she could place her out of the security of Hogwarts. I don't believe that Voldemort should go to Hogwarts only to catch Trelawney, and send Umbrigde to a kidnap should be counterproducent: if Umbrigde is a DE, it should be more interesting for Voldemort maintaining that in Hogwarts, (un)teaching the studennts DADA... Realize that. ====================================================================== About: Quidditch Theory ====================================================================== "Suppose we will then have to allow a position for Hermione on the Quidditch team. Hope not, as she doesn't seem too keen herself. And what about Neville? But I like your Quidditch theory." (Jekatiska) Hermione should be paired with Ginny and Neville as a "Chaser". Remember: she had saved them with Devil Snare's knowledge. She had taken and prepared polyjuice. She had learned about the Lupin "disease". She had taken Scabbers in Hagrid's hut. She had helped Harry with spells in GoF. And she had helped Harry to form DA. I don't believe that Ron will die. My suspects are others, and more darker ones... But not involving Ron Weasley. About Neville: I believe Neville as one of the Chasers or Beaters, but he's in game now. In Chess Theory, I believe that we had a pawn promoted (at least) to knight. ====================================================================== About: Ron a knight? ====================================================================== "Why did Ron not choose the King position for himself? I'm no more a chess expert than a medieval expert, but I think one part of the answer is that he would not have been safe as King, since the objective of the game is to checkmate the King. He would also be away from the action, since the other pieces protect the King. The other reason is that Ron did not see himself as a king, but rather as a vassal." (Debbie) A very loose comparation: Ron's role in HP is the same of Sam's in LOtR - he is the fellow sidekick for the hero. Ron was the first *good* wizard with his age which Harry make friendship. Ron was, at some way, in all Harry's adventures. Ron supports almost all Harry's decisions, even they are catastrophic (like the run to Ministry of Magic). I believe that, in the end, Ron will see the power within himself, and will be ready to take a life without being in Harry's shadow (even Harry and Ron surviving the final battle). ====================================================================== About: Snape thrashing Neville ====================================================================== "So if Snape is Malfoy's lap dog, as Sirius says, would he be bullying Neville and Harry for Draco benefit? That is to insure this behavior is reported to Lucius?" (Tim) OK, I believe in two theories: 1-) More radical: Snape is a mind ripper! He likes to make Neville (and any no-Slytherin) go crazy in your classes. Simple that. 2-) The good: Snape need some credit with Lucius, and the best way to take that is to support Draco in everything. And, in some way, a good way to make it is to place Draco, at least in the Pureblood circle, as "the best". Note that Snape support all Draco's humillation against Neville, Ron, Ernie, etc... everyone Pureblood. Another way is giving some "liberty" for Draco, prejudicing others in favor of Draco. The HP series has a lot of example of this, but wse could give the Duel Club and the Duel with Harry (when Draco's and Harry's spells hits Hermione and Goyle) in GoF. A third way is to making Harry (and Gryffindors) having a hell-time in his classes, and to permit Draco to make the same. Snape *obviously* have some pleasure in this, but this is nothing compared with Draco's pleasure. "Potter Stinks" and the Witch Weekly's article in GoF could be, IMHO, good example of this way. I believe that gives Snape some "points" with Lucius, that is, if not the most powerful, the most trustful (at least, at LV's eyes) DE. ====================================================================== About: Petunia and wizardry ====================================================================== "Would she try to hide her power or will she be forced to use it in order to save herself or her family???" (vmonte) I believe that we could compare a (possibly) Petunia's awakening to wizardry as the Dragon Ball-Z's moment when Goku, in Namekusei, unleash the SuperSayajin power. OK, some OT explanations: Goku was fighting by the right to have the Namekusei's Dragon Balls against Freeza. At some time, Goku and his friends are dead-ended by Freeza. Freeza, to demonstrate his power, kills Kuririn. But Freeza don't know that Kuririn is Goku's best friend. In a anger frenzy, Goku unleash a very great power, that rivalize with Freeza's power: the SuperSayajin power, that gives Goku the power to destroy a planet (I know, this is REALLY overpower... But anime without overpowering is like HP without Hogwarts). Coming back to HP: The Dursley will be bullyed by some DE (Lucius Malfoy, anyone?). At some time, at least one of Dudley or Vernon will be, at least, badly injured. All power that is locked in Petunia will unleash in a one VERY F#$*ING (sorry by the badword) big magic, that will disable the DE. Petunia will have two choices: trying to continue to live as a muggle (and risk yourself for another of this magic, which potentially could blast one or either of your family - Vernon or Dudley), or going to Hogwarts to learn how to use magic correctly. "If so, Dudley's brush with a dementor may have released forgotten memories from his infancy. (...) What if the encounter with the Dementors released a vision having to do with Voldemort, his mother, or even the death of Potter's parents or Grand parents. Could Dudley's worst fear be that he was previously attacked by a Dementor as an infant? Did Voldemort get to Petunia before he got word from Wormtail about James and Lily Potter? Did he threaten her family? Do you think Petunia sold out her parents in order to protect her own family???" (vmonte) We could trace a thought line in this way: Petunia and Lilly was born by the marriage of one squib and one muggle (or two squibs), which explain the fact of the parent's hapinness for Lilly going to Hogwarts (and still making him a muggleborn, 'cause squibs are technically muggles). But, at some way, the Evans knows the Potters, and Lilly know James, and so on. As a way to make some fear in Lilly and James, LV kills the Evans. Petunia, Vernon and Dudley are saved by the protection of Privet Drive 4, but this couldn't forbid that Dudley says things VERY, VERY wicked. This is mind-blocked by Dudley's psych, and the things going OK until he is demented... "Yes, Petunia is hiding something big! Her hatred of the wizarding world is very apparent. I'm sure the last thing she would want is for her son to have magical powers. I think it is no coincidence that she married someone like her husband. She was looking for a life that had nothing to do with witches and wizards." (vmonte) We could also note the Petunia's obssession for cleaning and the tedious "social meanings"... "Are Dudley's magical powers being restrained by DD? Or will Petunia turn out to have magical powers in the end? If so, she may have to use magic to protect her family. She may even kill someone important in the DE because she will catch them unawares... Who really knows, just speculating." (vmonte) I don't believe in the chance of Dudley being a wizard. If he was a wizard, we could have at some way a blast of magic thrashing the dementors when Dudley was attacked (unvoluntary wizardry, IMHO, has a standard: the more life-threating the situation, the more powerful the wizard "counter-attack"). Okay, I know that dementors disable some power... but, being Dudley repressed so much time, the magic attack triggered should be proportional to the time (I know, math is math, magic is magic, but that's reasonable, even according magic). Even the dementors could not have power to overcome so much power. For Petunia: read my "Magical SuperSayajin" (that was terrible, not?! :o) ) theory, before ====================================================================== About: Ships ====================================================================== "I think he'll end up with Luna Lovegood. She's a character that just sees Harry as Harry and not as "The Boy Who Lived". The fact that she seems quite uninterested in his fame might just be what Harry needs...(I have NEVER believed in Harry/Hermione, they're just friends.)" (romerskesims) I need to confess - I'm Neville/Ginny, Ron/Hermione at heart. I believe that the Magnet Theory (opposts attract each one) is valid. Ron (calm, uncommited, etc...) and Hermione (serious, committed, etc...) is EXACTLY opposed each one. Neville (only born, clumsy, without confidence) and Ginny (very brothers, agile, confident) has this characteristics also. And this is showed in Harry and Luna, and other ships, like Hagrid/Olympe, Fleur/Bill and Lupin/Tonks (that's a very COOL pair). ====================================================================== About: Sorting ====================================================================== I don't know for you... But for me I believe that the Sorting Hat *NOT* split evenly the students in the house, but I could not stop to think that Hufflepuff has VERY MUCH MORE students than the other Houses. That's because the "default" characteristic of the Hufflepuff house (understanding: anyone that's not fit to any other house goes to Hufflepuff). What do you thinking about that? ====================================================================== About: Person Transfiguration ====================================================================== "Can transfiguration be used (like when drinking polyjuice)to impersonate another character (without being a metamorph)?" (vmonte) I can't show Transfiguration as a mean of impersonation, like Polyjuice and Metamorphomagic (is that?). I believe that Transfiguration can hide the characteristics of someone, but not could be used for impersonation. ====================================================================== About: Animagic ====================================================================== "For the most part, anyway, as we must remember Sirius talking about how his emotions were simpler when in dog form, so he could slip past the Dementors. But it seems a very dramatic difference between the two." (Taryn) AFAIK, I believe that a animagus maintain a in-between equillibrium between his human and his animal's mind. He could think as a human, but his feelings is more animallistic. I don't believe that a animagus could turn yourself in any animal: this could easily invalidate the Animagus' registration in MOM. And, here in Brazil, the Indians has the tradition of the "soul animal": he believes that anyone has a animal spirit in yourself. Thinking this in HP could lead you to this theory: someone could ONLY animagic yourself to a animal that correspond with his personal's characteristic. Thinking in Maurauders: * Peter: a rat. Only think in himself, and has as sole objective to survive. He don't want to fight, so he hide himself bihind more powerful people; * Sirius: a dog. Loyal with his friends, and very agressive against anyone that hurts his friends. He could sacrifice himself (as he REALLY made) to protect anyone that he loves. * James: a deer. Strong, and powerful, protects the friends against external threats (like a potential Lupin's frenzy)... That's OK to me thinking in this way. Thinking yourselves in this. "I suppose that some of these details also apply to Krum, who may be an unregistered shark animagus for all we know, but would have limited opportunities to use that ability in Durmstrang or Bulgaria." (Carol) I don't think so... I believe that a wizard could Transfigurate parts of himself for parts of animals, like Krum mades in Triwizard. That's OK to me... But a Animagus form should be more difficult and all-or-nothing: you change TOTALLY to animal form, or don't change at all. Namari? ====================================================================== Samwise Weasley The Burrow, Bag Road, 9 3/4 Borda da Mata - MG - Brazil Nick: Sam_Weasley hufflepuff at pop.com.br ICQ #:173799674 samwiseweasley at pop.com.br MSN: hufflepuffbr at hotmail.com Linux User #328087 ====================================================================== HPCode (1.1) H PS++COS+++POA+++GOF+++*OOTP+++ FF++ QB CH+++DD+++HB++HM+PO++TR+++AR+++AT+++*MS+++ NL/Gi-BW/Fl-RB/Ol-RW/He-HP/Lu-RL/To HPCode - www.hogwarts-library.net/common/hpcode.html From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Sat Feb 7 04:32:55 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 04:32:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's blood relatives (Was: Safety at Hogwarts, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90445 I don't know, I remember DD mentioning that Petunia was Harry's only maternal relative, or that's how I understood it. I don't think that Harry came from a long line of single child families who all died out by 1981. That just seems too easy and too convenient. I think that Petunia is Harry's only maternal relative, and therefore he has to stay with her because Lily had put the blood charm protection thingy on him, not James. So even if there were other Potters, I don't think that he would have been able to get to know them because of the Dursleys antimagic mentality, and because they could not have the blood protection from Lily. Dumbledore does not lie, he just withholds the truth. So we will see. Sawsan From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Sat Feb 7 05:00:12 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 05:00:12 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90446 I think that you are right about the relationships. I like Ron, don't get me wrong, but I can't see him and Hermione being blissful as a couple at all. He is a very jealous type, so jealous that the gets weird after he finds out about Ginny and Michael Corner, which I thought was similar to his reaction about Krum and Hermione. Hermione, thus far, has not seemed to show real interest in anyone (well Lockhart is a strange exception). I think that there is a special friendship between her and Harry, and a much more peaceful relationship could develop between the both of them. She worries about him, and tries not to offend him for the most part, but doesn't get put down by him either. He, Harry, seems to consider her feelings as well and she seems to be the only girl he is close to. They both don't show any romantic feelings towards each other, and now that Cho is out of the picture (THANK GOD!!!) neither does Harry. However, I think that it will happen in time, were Harry to survive his destiny. If Hermione does end up with Ron, that would be too Dawson's Creek for me and very depressing IMO. I just don't see them right for each other. I think Ron will eventually go for someone who is strong, more accepting of his personality (than Hermione, who constantly corrects him or tells him off for his honest yet insulting remarks), and sees him for who he is and loves him for that. We don't know too much about Susan Bones, but I think she will be important, and maybe even be the girl of Ickle Ronnikins dreams. That's my opinion anyway. Sawsan. From pfsch at gmx.de Sat Feb 7 18:53:33 2004 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 18:53:33 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter 10, "Luna Lovegood". In-Reply-To: <1867327849.20040206225826@gmx.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90447 > My prediction - though improbable I must admit - is one of the "who > willend up in love with whom" kind. Harry might fall in love with > Luna in a future book. Well, reading OotP ch. 21 now, I found a new "evidence" on p.400 UK ed.: Luna and Harry under the mistletoe (full of Nargles). Well, just something to think about. I'm growing quite fond of the idea. ;) Bye Peter (www.mondratte.de) From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 23:30:21 2004 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:30:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040207233021.22912.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90448 It's been a while since I've posted, but since I had a little bit of free time, I figured I'd put my two sense in IMHO, Harry and Hermione will end up together, to me they've been working up to that relationship since about second year. I'm not sure when it will happen, but I have a feeling it will happen slowly - maybe with a first kiss that they both decide not to mention again but they can't stop thinking about it - something like that. As for Ron, I believe he will end up with Luna. I know that seems odd, but that was the feeling that I got after reading OOTP. I think the way she would look at him was very telling, and I could see it leading somewhere. One last ship, I think it will be Ginny and Nevelle. Don't quite know why I think that, but I do. Ok, thats the end of my opinion. Have a good day all Beckah sawsan_issa wrote: I think that you are right about the relationships. I like Ron, don't get me wrong, but I can't see him and Hermione being blissful as a couple at all. He is a very jealous type, so jealous that the gets weird after he finds out about Ginny and Michael Corner, which I thought was similar to his reaction about Krum and Hermione. Hermione, thus far, has not seemed to show real interest in anyone (well Lockhart is a strange exception). I think that there is a special friendship between her and Harry, and a much more peaceful relationship could develop between the both of them. She worries about him, and tries not to offend him for the most part, but doesn't get put down by him either. He, Harry, seems to consider her feelings as well and she seems to be the only girl he is close to. They both don't show any romantic feelings towards each other, and now that Cho is out of the picture (THANK GOD!!!) neither does Harry. However, I think that it will happen in time, were Harry to survive his destiny. If Hermione does end up with Ron, that would be too Dawson's Creek for me and very depressing IMO. I just don't see them right for each other. I think Ron will eventually go for someone who is strong, more accepting of his personality (than Hermione, who constantly corrects him or tells him off for his honest yet insulting remarks), and sees him for who he is and loves him for that. We don't know too much about Susan Bones, but I think she will be important, and maybe even be the girl of Ickle Ronnikins dreams. That's my opinion anyway. Sawsan. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 23:34:50 2004 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 23:34:50 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90449 Just a quick question...has anybody heard anything about book six?? I look all the time - when I have the time - but I haven't been able to for a while. Sorry if this has been asked about a thousand times, I was just curious. Thanks Beckah From rredordead at aol.com Sat Feb 7 23:40:04 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 23:40:04 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90450 > sawsan_issa wrote: > Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus can be interpreted as a 'rough' > latin. (Few exceptions such as nunquam=numquam; slight spelling > modifications et al). I interpret it generally as meaning "the > snake never sleep peacefully". > draco=snake > nunquam=never > dormiens=sleep > titillandus=peacefully Mandy here: In my latin-english dictionary Titillandus means to titialate, tantalize or tickle. Tease if another option. Mandy From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sun Feb 8 00:16:13 2004 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 00:16:13 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90451 armadillof wrote: > Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus can be interpreted as a 'rough' > latin. (Few exceptions such as nunquam=numquam; slight spelling > modifications et al). I interpret it generally as meaning "the > snake never sleep peacefully". > draco=snake > nunquam=never > dormiens=sleep > titillandus=peacefully Admittedly I've never studied Latin, but I read the phrase as _draco_ => "dragon" _nunquam_ => "never" _dormiens_ => present participle of _dormio_ "to sleep" _titillandus_ => gerund of _titillo_ "to tickle" What is the basis of your translation of _titillandus_? I'd expect some derivative of _placide_ "peaceful" instead. - Corinth From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sun Feb 8 00:33:35 2004 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 19:33:35 EST Subject: No mystery guest in OOP? Message-ID: <1f1.186dd46f.2d56dddf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90452 Ok. For some reason this has been bothering me, so I thought I'd bring it to the table. In every book thusfar (other than OOP, unless I'm missing something) there has been a revealing at the end where we learn one of the characters is evil. PS/SS: Quirrell CoS: Tom Riddle/Voldemort PoA: Scabbers/Wormtail GoF: Mood/Crouch JR Where is the mystery and the unveiling in OOP? Heh-I don't know why this is bothering me...but...worth a thought. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carrilynne at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 7 20:33:48 2004 From: carrilynne at sbcglobal.net (carrilynne) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:33:48 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Lucius (Was Re: Weasleys on the Tapestry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90453 This is an interesting thread. I just finished OoP again last night, and something else came to my attention (if it's discussed somewhere in these tombs - please forgive me in advance). Ron says "... it has about as much chance of happening as my father has of becoming Minister of Magic". So, has anyone thrown out the possibility or likelihood of Arthur becoming the MoM in one of the next 2 books? When Ron says something in jest... it usually happens and what a great slap in the face of the CLASS or PUREBLOOD preference. ~Carri From rubykelly at webtv.net Sun Feb 8 03:39:55 2004 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 03:39:55 -0000 Subject: (was what Aunt M.knows/Col. Fub) Future implications foe magic vs.nonmagic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90454 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" > wrote: > > Many of us believe we're going to meet Mark Evans again in book 6, > > revealed as a wizard and enrolled at Hogwarts. -Anyone ever > wondered whether old Colonel Fubster is going to pop up again? > Colonel Fubster is the old neighbour of aunt Marge who takes care of > her dogs when she is visiting her brother Vernon. This is what we > know about him: > > (snip) > > > > I hope you agree with me that it is clear from the text that it was > > Harry's anger who made the wine glass shatter in Aunt Marge's hand. > > That's why I find it very interesting that the exact same thing > > happened in the presence of old Colonel Fubster... > (snip) > > Carolyn ...Sorry, I snipped most of this post because it would've been very long otherwise-DO go up & read if you haven't! Interesting observations! BUT I personally think Peunia is much more intimidated by DD than she ever would be by Marge, plus there's something she's keeping secret from Vernon-perhaps she's been getting renumeration of some kind (Harry did inherit quite a bit of $$$); if so, Petunia may well have kept this for herself. Well, we know someone will use magic "late in life"; I suspect the incident w/ Marge (who DOES seemto imply some kind of acquattance with the WW in her comments) may well indicate it's going to be Vernon (or perhpa Dudley, tho' Dudley's a bit young for the "late in life"clue), and we may well find out that there have been other magicals in the Dursely family; people who have been ostracized or over-praised, either of which might lead Vernon and Marge to have the feelings they do. If Vernon had a sibling or cousin that was magical, it might even be a reason Vernon & Petunia bonded-perhaps even how they met (the two non-magicals attending a Hogwart's graduation?) not to mention any feelings toward a relative of their own could certainly cause Marge to make such nasty remarks about Lily & Harry. It could be the Dursleys are related to ANY one-the Graingers (whom V & P would probably suck up to, since both of Hermione's parents are medical professionals, and since even their "icky" magical daughter clearly posesses the mental gifts they'd like to attribute to Duuders but secretly know isn't o-"the poor girl can't help it, I suppose-and she DOES earn top marks in every subject! THAT'S not magic, THAT'S from her NORMAAL parents, you know..."-can't you just hear it?! Lol!!) Yes, the Graingers are no doubt just the sort of people Petunia would be happy to impress he neighbours with! Hermione's folks seem awfully nice, so let's hope they're never subjected to that, they'd be too polite too embarrass Harry. Then there's all the others-Dean Thomas' family, the other Evanses (including the mysterious Mark), and of course Ted Tonks, father of Nymphodora (hmm, anyone else think about the name Tonks and the Knots it might imply?). Any of those names might be connected to the Dursleys, or the blank spots in the Black genealogy-or in other "pureblood" family genealogies, the Malfoys/Crabbes/Goyles/Parkinsons etc.who'd "conveniently" and "accidently" leave off any Muggles the way some people are all eager to trace family lines until they stumble across the bootleggers or horse-thieves, or ancestors of the wrong religion/colour/national origen.God help Draco and Narcissa if Hermione decides to REALLY research Sirius' family chart, eh?? (Psst-if I had my druthers, it'd be Vernon that makes the horrifying discovery of demonstrarting magic-it's just tooo delicious!!) And from the original post, this exchange: >>>>Finally, is it just me that sees the >>>>similarity in personality types >>>>between Fudge, Umbridge and the Dursleys ? > All unpleasant, stupid > individuals, dedicated to maintaining the > status quo, even by the use > of torture, abuse and cruelty ? I think it's JKR demonstrating that neither magical nor non-magicals have the monopoly on any the nastier aspects of human nature; indeed, in that way there's a great deal in common (a theme repeated in all the novels) which most especially shows in the various and constant strains of prejudice in BOTH groups. I think a "unification" of both worlds, plus all the elements in them (House-Elves, Goblins, intellectuals, "old-blood", etc.) willl be among the major elements in the coming books. Also, the discovery that there's more Muggle ancestry in supposed "pure-blood" families (what do you think the holes and dead-ends in the Black family tree are indicative of?!) - I think's JKR's statement re: not wantng to reveal too much of her religious beliefs lest it "give too much away"plays into this (as well as some other things I've noticed, no doubt along with swarms of other readers mentally saying "hmmm, kind of reminds me of..." :); think "A house divided against itself cannot stand" along with treating other people the way we ourselves would wish to be treated), and the idea of unification, across all lines, will come into play more and more... Hoping to see Draco find out he has an Uncle Vernon :D, KAT/rxk From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Feb 8 03:56:27 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 03:56:27 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90455 Kneasy wrote: >snip< I believe Snape's behaviour towards Harry and Neville is an act... The one staff member on the spot is invariably Snape. Carol: >snip< What if they were not memories of his own personal humiliation but something he didn't want Voldemort, via Harry, to see? >snip< Whatever they were, it was essential that they not be seen by either Harry or Voldemort. >snip< In other words, yes, Snape is "the necessary corrective in Harry's world." Yes, he is Harry's "guardian angel." And, yes, he must conceal his role. Potioncat: I hope I haven't snipped so much this doesn't make sense. I too agree that Snape is both playing a role and is protecting Harry. The ideas about the pensieve make a lot of sense. I've wondered what would happen if LV got a look into Snape via Harry. So it seems even more important that Harry have a strong dislike for Snape. And Snape has given him lots of reasons to dislike him! But, he's still taught him! Making him write an essay about the potion he messed up was priceless! It looked like punishment, to both Harry and Umbridge, but taught Harry the very potion Umbridge didn't want taught. As for the potions that didn't get Marks (Mark Evans esco) Snape knows very well how they turned out. And it seems the O.W.L.S. are more important than the classroom grade. I'll bet both Harry and Neville pass potions O.W.L.S. and I bet Harry's grade will be good enough for N.E.W.T.S potions class. And I don't think either outcome will surprise Snape. Potioncat (who having said all this in defense of Snape, wouldn't want him for a teacher either.) From pixieberry at harborside.com Sun Feb 8 05:28:37 2004 From: pixieberry at harborside.com (Krystol Berry) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 21:28:37 -0800 Subject: Now Black (is back) Filk Message-ID: <003b01c3ee04$67c3f040$1a3a2d0c@D55NTV31> No: HPFGUIDX 90456 Now Black (is back) to the tune of Get Back by The Beatles (original lyrics can be found here: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/beatles/14518.html ) Dedicated to Constance Vigilance, who always filks to groovy tunes. After meeting at The Three Broomsticks, Hermione and Ron quickly shove Harry under their table as Prof. McGonagall, Prof. Flitwick, Hagrid, and Fudge seat themselves close by and begin to speak. MCGONAGALL: Sirius was a wizard, not much of a loner. Severus got him irate. His best friends were Peter, James, and Remus Lupin None of whom could guess his fate. Now Black is back. Yes, Black escaped from Azkaban. Now Black is back Broke out and now he's on the run. He's back, Hagrid. No doubt That Black is Back. Yes, Black escaped from Azkaban. That Black is back. Broke out and now he's on the run. He's back now. FUDGE: Sweet young Lily Evans, such a lovely woman. James Potter, he was her man. Sirius betrayed them with contempt that's numbing, Voldy then pursued his plan. Now Black is back. That Black escaped from Azkaban. Now Black is back Broke out and now he's on the run. He's back, Minerva. No doubt That Black is back. Yes, Black escaped from Azkaban. Now Black is back Broke out and now he's on the run. He's back, Rosmerta. And Potter hasn't a clue Sirius turned on James And he betrayed Lily. ROSMERTA: Such a playful youngster MCGONAGALL: Now Black is back Yes, Black escaped from Azkaban. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 8 05:35:48 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 05:35:48 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90457 > If Dumbledore is, indeed, an animagus, he must certainly have become so well before middle-age. > Sylvia (who feels we have way too many animagi floating around > already) I have been thinking about DD as an animagus a great deal, both as I read the books and through this thread. It has occured to me that perhaps DD is something we have not had described to us before. We all know that DD is a VERY powerful wizard, why then would such a powerful wizard be limited to becoming but 1 other thing? perhaps Dumbldore is capable of becoming anything he wants, whenever he wants. He would not have to register as he is not specifically an animagus (although I believe if Hermione found him on the list and was asked to keep it quiet she would) and he would be able to be anywhere without people knowing he was there. Oh say...a spider in a cupboard under the stairs perhaps? Wondering about Dumbledore and who the other metamorphmagus is going to be... Sue From rubykelly at webtv.net Sun Feb 8 05:45:54 2004 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 05:45:54 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Animagi and animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90458 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Sylvia wrote: > > Thanks, Carol, for bringing up the subject of Snape's patronus > and/or > > boggart. I have been wondering about this myself and came to the > > same conclusion that the boggart might be LV red in tooth and claw - > > > as good a reason for not giving Snape the DADA job as any - but I > > haven't formed any definite idea about the patronus. Not a snake, > > surely. Anyone got any less conventional ideas? > > Neri now: > Shouldn't Snape's patronus be a really large bat? > > Just kidding. I don't really believe that vampire thing. > > And in order to execute the patronus you need a happy memory. What > would that be for Snape? I can't think of anything, unless it is > the day James died, or the day Sirius died. > > Or was it Slytherin's seventh quidditch cup in a row? > > Neri Arrggh unfortunatly I can't find the start of this thread "much fake sobbing"-sniff, sniff-anyone have a fake tissue? ANYway... Snape may have happy memories we no nothing about, and unfortunatly I don't know if we'll ever find out his Patronus (unless some future plot point revolves around it). I see no reason why it wouldn't be a snake-in many, many cultures, snakes are symbols of eternity, healing, divine messangers, wisdom, knowledge (especially "secret" knowledge), guardians, bringers of dreams and creative inspiration, and so on. Even in Abrahamic culture they weren't looked on as merely baddies (like the serpent in Eden, which wasn't a real snake but a form assumed by the ultimate You-Know-Who!). In fact, I'm sure you've all seen the modern medical profession's symbol of the Cadueus (staff) of Hermes, which winged with two twining serpents. In ancient times, Apollo, who was the god of medicine, was believed to send doctors of that time inspiration to heal by sending Hermes-a dream involving snakes was looked on as a sign of recovery. Asnake swallowing its tail was/is the sign of eternity in many religions and cultures, while snakes were used to guard many places used as cold-storage for food-in fact, my father talks about visiting his grandparents back in the 1930s at a farm which had no indoor plumbing, let alone electricity or running water. There was a spring-house not too far away from the main house; there was (suprise!) a little stone building with a stream running through, which was always cold, where milk, cream, butter, eggs, and various other food requiring cold storage was kept. When visiting, one of the chores he disliked was retrieving something from the spring-house since it was inhabited by a large black snake (not poisonous, but still scarey to a little kid!), which served quite nicely to keep rats and mice away from the food there. (There were cats too , but their territory was the barn and feed sheds, as well as the cellars-WARM places!).I imagine this is still a common practice in many places. Another thing that springs to mind is from the New Testament, where, when speaking to the disciples of evangelizing, Jesus advises them to "be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves". Dragons, which are sometimes called "Great serpents" or "Great wyrms" are also symbols of good fortune, wealth, divine blessing, and power in many places too, especially the East. Therefore, snake or dragon (Slytherin or not) could be very reasonable Patroni. Then there's the possibility Severus happy memory might involve his mother. If so, it could be something feline-cats being reknowned (mother cats, anyway!) as being very concious of their young and very ferocious in defense of them. Cats are also nocturnal, generally quiet-to-silent in movement (except when making swooping leaps like my own just did into the window!) Siad feline could be either either a housecat, or one of their large, wild variety. A happy memory could involve Albus Dumbledore-who has faith in him now, and who treats him with affection (someimes amused, sometimes with gentle reproof, sometimes obviously anxious about him, defending him to Harry and no doubt others over the years-and I'd guess this began when Severus arrived at Hogwarts as an 11-year-old child who by then was probably emitting an aura of need which Dumbledore would have picked up. If DD was the stimulus, the aforesaid possible feline Patronus could have been (heeheehee) a lion! Or, a bee-another animal atrributed with magical power. Or, if a bat is so unthinkable-why not a bird? Ravens, vultures, other large birds of prey; all known to be intelligent animals of silence and speed (and swoopy) who are noted for caring for their young. Or-if it was his mother-a dove (yes, more giggling on my part! Even tho' it could fit). Then there's the "romance" angle-since JKR was so startled by being asked if Snape would have a romance that she seems to practically have admitted that he's either married or was, it could be any of the animals known for faithfulness to their mates-like, say (AHAHAHA!!) WOLVES - OH, but I'd LOVE to see THAT one! :D :D Also, does anyone else think that once young master Severus had discovered his most despised fellow-students were animagi, HE would not rest until beoming one himself? Some of the possibilities for Patrni could serve for that too (ok, maybe not becoming a dragon!). But a cat, a raven/owl/crow, a snake-heck, anything that might not be noticed as being out-of-the-norm, seem possible & might involve spying, too. Kat(rxk) From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Feb 8 07:41:38 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 07:41:38 -0000 Subject: No mystery guest in OOP? In-Reply-To: <1f1.186dd46f.2d56dddf@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90459 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: Cassie: > Ok. For some reason this has been bothering me, so I thought I'd bring it to > the table. > > In every book thusfar (other than OOP, unless I'm missing something) there > has been a revealing at the end where we learn one of the characters is evil. > > PS/SS: Quirrell > CoS: Tom Riddle/Voldemort > PoA: Scabbers/Wormtail > GoF: Mood/Crouch JR > > Where is the mystery and the unveiling in OOP? Heh-I don't know why this > is bothering me...but...worth a thought. Geoff: Into that category, I would put the revelation that Dolores Umbridge set the Dementors on Harry. Up to that point, I considered her a vicious and sadistic woman but that shifted my view of her considerably. Whether it fits your criterion or not, I don't know.... From clio44a at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 14:22:28 2004 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 14:22:28 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90460 I was thinking lately about the end of OotP and Harrys state of mind, and I wondered much of a loose cannon he might be now. In the MoM, after Bellatrix Lestrange has killed Sirius, Harry duels with her. OotP, Brit. ed. p715: "Hate rose in Harry such as he had never known before; he flung himself out from behind the fountain and and bellowed, 'Crucio!' Bellatrix screamed: the spell had knocked her off her feet, but she did not writhe and shriek in pain as Neville had- she was already back on her feet, breathless, no longer laughing. [...] 'Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?' she yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. 'You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain - to enjoy it- rightous anger won't hurt me for long [...]'" It is a bit reassuring here that Harry, although he wants to cast an Unforgivable, is unable to do so efficiently, because he doesn't feel enough hate in him. He doesn't enjoy the pain of it victim enough. Now, I was wondering what would happen if the target of Harrys spell was a different person, one he really hates. Snape. In Dumbledore's office, Harry blames Snape for Sirius death. And here, for the first time, we see Harry connecting joy and hate. OotP, Brit. ed. p734: "Harry disregarded this; he felt a savage pleasure in blaming Snape, it seemed to be easing his own sense of dreadful guilt, and he wanted to hear Dumbledore agree with him." Some scenes later, Harrys newfound hatred of Snape is reinforced. It is not the 'rightous anger' Bellatrix says Harry uses in his meek Crucio. p750 "Snape had emerged from the staircase leading to his office and at the sight of him Harry felt a great rush of hatred beyond anything he felt towards Malfoy ... whatever Dumbledore said, he would never forgive Snape ... never ..." I wonder what would happen if Harry met Snape alone, if Snape provoked him, maybe. Would he really try to harm him physically? In book 4 this seems to be foreshadowed. Harry more than once fantasizes of hurting Snape. GoF, just after the 'I see no difference' incident: "Harry's ears were ringing. The injustice of it made him want to curse Snape into a thousand slimy pieces. [...] Harry sat there staring at Snape as the lesson began, picturing horrific things happening to him. . . . If only he knew how to do the Cruciatus Curse. . . he'd have Snape flat on his back like that spider, jerking and twitching. [...] Harry imagined picking up his cauldron, and sprinting to the front of the class, and bringing it down on Snape's greasy head - And then a knock on the dungeon door burst in on Harry's thoughts." And later in GoF, after Snape reads Rita Skeeter's article aloud: "Determined not to look at Snape, Harry resumed the mashing of his scarab beetles, imagining each one to have Snape's face." Well, I think this is a bit startling. Would Harry really, now that he knows the Crucio curse and has in his mind a good reason to hate Snape, go so far as to hurt him? And enjoy it? I don't want to go into 'who's to blame for Sirius death' debates. It is enough, that Harry thinks Snape got Sirius killed. In those examples from GoF Snape has only insulted Harry with words and it triggers such violent fantasies in him. What will happen now, that Harry thinks Snape is responsible for Sirius death? There is no denying that he is a bit unhinged. Would Harry expose Snape as a spy or challenge him to a duel maybe? Any thoughts? Clio, who thinks AngryTeenager!Harry and curses might prove to be a explosive combination From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun Feb 8 14:42:14 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:42:14 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's revenge on Snape? References: Message-ID: <002401c3ee51$be629800$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90461 {Clio,} Well, I think this is a bit startling. Would Harry really, now that he knows the Crucio curse and has in his mind a good reason to hate Snape, go so far as to hurt him? And enjoy it? I don't want to go into 'who's to blame for Sirius death' debates. It is enough, that Harry thinks Snape got Sirius killed. In those examples from GoF Snape has only insulted Harry with words and it triggers such violent fantasies in him. What will happen now, that Harry thinks Snape is responsible for Sirius death? There is no denying that he is a bit unhinged. Would Harry expose Snape as a spy or challenge him to a duel maybe? Any thoughts {Anne} Yow...frightening thought, there. I'd forgotten all of those specific passages with Harry imagining such violent harm to Snape.... Like you, I don't want to get into another thread of how Harry will turn out--good or bad, herioc or tragically fallen to the Dark...or whether or not Snape 'deserves it' for being 'abusive'....(Does anybody really 'deserve' to be treated horribly? I always thought it was an exercise in futility--it's not as if the 'deserving' person will learn anything from it, and all it does is lower the person who thought the punishment was 'deserved' to the level of thier victim....) As for how he would use it against Snape, it's hard to tell...he might not ever take real action, but I can see the inner turmoil getting worse as misconception and hate continues to trade themselves between the two, because unless Harry gets a sudden clarity of inner vision, I don't think any understanding or apologies will be forthcoming from either him or Snape. But it does lend another idea, that ties in, perhaps to the 'possession' threads that have been circulationg recently. Between Harry's newfound rage, and his failure to learn Occulimens in the last book...what if Voldy finally has the key he needs with those two factors to actually worm his way into Harry's mind and use him, or more precisely, use his negative feelings to fuel control over the boy and have him do what Voldy wants (Like Tom did with Ginny and the diary). That would be a horrifying, ugly mess... (and yet, still excuse Harry from turning evil--at that point, he would just be another helpless puppet). Very ugly thought.... Then again, perhaps that is what 6 will be about...Harry finally loosing control somehow, and then having to use all the presumed talent, inherant 'goodness' and willpower he has to drag himself back out of it...by himself (now that he's lost a lot of the former protective structure around him....) Anne (Silverthorne) From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Sun Feb 8 15:09:57 2004 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 15:09:57 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90462 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: (very snipped) > I believe the Swedish word is draken - their air force used to have > SAAB Drakens as part of their equipment. Friends Malfoy and Norbert > have certainly got the posts flying around!! "Draken" = "the dragon". Drake = just "dragon". Sorry, couldn't let this one pass. (I'm totally impressed that you knew this, by the way. But then, I also nearly started cheering when Jennifer Garner spoke two entire sentences in very decent Swedish on "Alias". So much fun, speaking a minority language. :)) Eva. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Feb 8 16:02:50 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 8 Feb 2004 16:02:50 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1076256170.25.46156.m11@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90463 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, February 8, 2004 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Feb 8 16:11:33 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:11:33 +0000 Subject: Entering the Chamber Message-ID: <76A31187-5A51-11D8-8F7F-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90464 Since I submitted the original Possession post a week or so ago, aspects of the whole Chamber question have been bothering me. According to Tom it took him five years to find the entrance to the Chamber, but annoyingly he doesn't tell us how he solved the problem. Nor is there any hint as to why the entrance should be in a girl's bathroom. There is also a faint possibility that there is more than one entrance. To take the last point first - Harry is aware of something (the Basilisk) that he can hear moving about in the structure of Hogwarts. To do so it had to leave the Chamber; but Myrtle has apparently seen nothing unusual in her bathroom recently. Isn't this a bit odd? There sits Myrtle, alone and palely loitering in her U-bend, desperate for company or someone she can nag, and she is not aware of the multiple Basilisk forays that cause such a fuss, nor did she notice Ginny using the bathroom to access the Chamber. Surely the sound of Possessed!Ginny speaking Parseltongue to open the Chamber would have attracted her attention? Apparently not. Or perhaps it didn't all happen in the bathroom. Tell me, how did Tom get *out* of the Chamber all those years ago? He certainly didn't use Fawkes. It's a long slide down to the bottom - and there are no steps. Harry first hears the Basilisk during his detention with Lockhart - this is within the first few days of the start of the school year. Is it likely that Ginny has already opened the Chamber in that short time? I wouldn't have thought so, and if I'm right then the Basilisk can somehow access the school pipework by a route other than the entrance in Myrtle's boudoir. Maybe it has always been able to do this and only a Parselmouth would have been able to realise it. After all, there are lots of side pipes branching off from that slide down to the Chamber. The only two Parselmouths since Salazar's days that we know about are Harry and Tom. Is this what alerted Tom to the existence of the Chamber and the monster within? But Tom, like Harry, might not have realised that what he was hearing was Parseltongue; why should he? It's just a voice so far as he is concerned. But there is something else in the school that can help him. Tom is a sneaky, devious little creep. He spies on people. He's been spying on Hagrid and his little pet and Aragog knows all about Basilisks. He fears them and begs Hagrid to let him leave. He doesn't tell Hagrid what it is that he fears but a brilliant scholar like Tom may have reasoned it out in much the same way as the Trio, especially Hermione, did later. Acromantula - spiders - obsessive fear - Basilisk! Pipes - pipework - bathrooms. Check 'em out! Yippee! Jackpot! Diary!Tom tells us that he was a prefect when Myrtle died, so he was probably in his sixth year. It took him five years to find the Chamber, so it's highly likely that he had been down there before Myrtle came eyeball-to-eyeball with her nemesis. Remember the timings in that event: Myrtle was being happily miserable in her cubicle, hears someone speaking, unlocks the door and faces her ultimate Freudian nightmare. Not enough time for Tom to slide down to the Chamber and call the monster from Salazars statue; the Basilisk was not sleeping, it was up and about and eager to be out and at 'em. Something, presumably Tom, had already primed it for action. But the problem remains, Tom could enter the Chamber from the bathroom, but from the way it is described, he couldn't get out of the Chamber that way. Transfiguration into a bird? We never see him indulge in Transfiguration either as Tom or Voldy, and there'd be a risk that with the loss of his human intelligence the Basilisk would get him too. A broom-stick? He'd hardly wander around the school and into girl's toilets carrying a broom, would he? People would talk, start ugly rumours. No, I strongly suspect that there is another entrance.. Bets? Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Feb 8 16:13:49 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:13:49 +0000 Subject: Possession Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90465 A few more thoughts on the theme that Voldemort is more than just Tom Riddle after a make-over. There seems to be a growing expectation among fans that the Chamber of Secrets holds, or held, more than just a Basilisk. Its very name endorses the idea. Secrets - plural. Some expect that JKR will return us to the Chamber in a future volume, and there is that tantalising hint that she nearly gave away the key to the story in CoS. Enough there to attract any red-blooded theoriser. What happened to Salazar Slytherin? We don't know. We are told that he left the school - after constructing the Chamber. Presumably he could see the way the wind was blowing long before he left. You don't cobble together something like the Chamber in five minutes and then he'd have to find or hatch a Basilisk, make sure it was OK, place a few spells here and there - generally get things ready for whoever it was that would, as Tom says, "...finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work." So he had time to set it up just the way he wanted; nice and comfy, all mod cons, everything an Heir might want. But all we see is a Basilisk. That's it, is it? One measly Basilisk is the sum total of the malice of a twisted old looney? Come now, surely he could do better than that. For a start, he'd have to be sure that whoever entered the Chamber matched the job description for Heir. How can he do that? Well, they have to be a Parselmouth to get in and maybe to find out about the Chamber at all (see Entering the Chamber, 90464), but that might not guarantee evil intent; Harry isn't evil, or is he? So by my reckoning, it's much easier to make sure that somebody is evil when they *leave* the Chamber, than it is to ensure that only evil enters it. And possession is how you do it. An Heir inherits possessions ('scuse the pun) and the first to enter gets possessed. Can't have some do-gooder ruining Salazars little plan, can we? So there was something in there that trapped whoever entered and took them over for Salazar's own ends. I was re-reading CoS and I was struck by the number of times that Diary!Tom refers to Lord Voldemort in the third person, as if he were someone else entirely. It could be a verbal tic, but I wonder. Twice Diary!Tom proclaims the greatness of himself and of Voldy. He says that he is the greatest wizard in the world, and of course Harry puts him straight. Everybody remembers that passage. But a few lines earlier he says that Voldemort is the greatest wizard in history. Wow! That is something else. Do you really think that Tom believes he is greater than his hero Slytherin? Not from the way he refers to Salazar, you wouldn't; he talks like a disciple not a superior. We know that there is a dis-embodied entity that can pass from Voldy Mk I to intermediate life-forms after Godrics Hollow and from Quirrell to rats in Albania and eventually form Voldy Mk II. So where did this entity come from? From the Chamber IMO. And it is a sub-set of old Salazar himself. Now for a wild guess. Diary!Tom was destroyed when the diary was destroyed. The spirit of Salazar Slytherin will be destroyed when a certain something in the Chamber is destroyed. Expect a big show-down under Hogwarts! Kneasy From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Feb 8 16:47:48 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 16:47:48 -0000 Subject: No mystery guest in OOP? In-Reply-To: <1f1.186dd46f.2d56dddf@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90466 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > Where is the mystery and the unveiling in OOP? Heh-I don't >know why this is bothering me...but...worth a thought. I think that Books 5, 6 and 7 are going to form a much more cohesive unit than the earlier books in the series.. We do have Kreacher unmasked as a villain and Umbridge revealed as the one who set the Dementors on Harry and Dudley. But many other mysteries remain unresolved. Of course we don't know how the Prophecy will play out. But we also aren't sure of the story behind Sturgis Podmore's break-in, we don't know what's up with Petunia, what horrible experience caused Dudley to have such a drastic reaction to the Dementors, how Snape is managing to get information from the Death Eaters, what's in the locked room at the Ministry, and why, oh, why is the account of Sirius's death written so that someone besides Bella could have killed him? Is there once again a traitor in the Order, who is picking off its members one by one? I have a feeling that this situation will continue in Book 6, which may end with an actual cliffhanger. Pippin who is planning the update of the Mysteries FAQ From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 17:23:51 2004 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 17:23:51 -0000 Subject: No mystery guest in OOP? In-Reply-To: <1f1.186dd46f.2d56dddf@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90467 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > Ok. For some reason this has been bothering me, so I thought I'd bring it to > the table. > > In every book thusfar (other than OOP, unless I'm missing something) there > has been a revealing at the end where we learn one of the characters is evil. > > PS/SS: Quirrell > CoS: Tom Riddle/Voldemort > PoA: Scabbers/Wormtail > GoF: Mood/Crouch JR > > Where is the mystery and the unveiling in OOP? In terms of a single character, none (other than the significant one Geoff & Pippin pointed out, that Umbridge proves to have been behind the Dementor attack, but I can see that that isn't the good- or neutral-character-revealed-to-be-Ever-So-Evil unveiling you're talking about). However, if one broadens your question a bit, there is certainly a mystery and unveiling. Another way of phrasing your question is "there is always a big, Poirot-lays-it-all-for-you explication where the central mystery of the plot is explained: Lupin & Black give it in PoA (and Hermione, if the Time-Turner counts as a central mystery for you), and Quirrell, Riddle, and Crouch Jr. give it in the others. Where is it this time?" To that phrasing of the question I would answer that it's in Dumbledore's office, delivered by Dumbledore, with the teaser JKR gave us when the publication date was announced in January '03: "I am now going to tell you everything." The "everything" being "the question you asked me at the end of PS." It isn't the villain- revealed moment you're talking about, but it is much bigger than any of those revelations, because it's about the mystery of the whole series. Now, IMO, it is peculiarly anticlimactic, but that feeling also seems right. Harry isn't hanging on every word; he barely cares or hears, because he's in shock (and speaking for many of us: so are we. We really want Dumbledore to just shut up so we can absorb the fact that she's just gone and killed Sirius--though we don't want it badly enough to close the book and sit in reflective silence for awhile ). And it's answering a question that we almost knew the answer to already--"why did Voldemort try to kill baby Harry?" "Because baby Harry had the power to overthrow him." We didn't know the details (and still don't), but since we've known since Book One, Chapter One that V *did* try to kill him, his having a reason to do so is QED. The only real mystery the Big Explanatory Scene solves is why Dumbledore has left Harry so dangerously ignorant--and the answer to that doesn't pack a big plot punch, but does pack an emotional one: because he loves him. (The other half of the answer, that VoldemortChannelling!Harry is actually dangerous to Dumbledore, we've known since the portkey out of AD's office at Christmas.) How's that, Lord Cassandra? Any help? Amy Z From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Feb 8 17:46:55 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 17:46:55 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: >(snip usual interesting analysis ... but you missed the bit about whether they really had girl's loos 1000 years ago; have not heard an adequate explanation of that one, and it must mean another/different entrance exists) > Now for a wild guess. Diary!Tom was destroyed when the diary was > destroyed. > The spirit of Salazar Slytherin will be destroyed when a certain > something in the Chamber is destroyed. > > Expect a big show-down under Hogwarts! > > Kneasy Carolyn: Well, what else do you expect if you tickle a sleeping dragon ? Bet Dumbledore knows exactly what's down there..can't remember the name of the dragon under the Lonely Mountain (?Smorg?) but same archetype. However, this dragon is not necessarily evil, just a bit single- minded in guarding its 'treasure'. I can envisage a brisk and bloody battle taking place on Hogwart's boundaries, and we all think Tom/Voldy is trying to get in to get at Harry, but actually Tom's suddenly realised he has to get in to get to the dragon under Hogwart's first, and kill it, in order to finally vanquish his oldest and deepest foe, Dumbledore. Dumbledore knows all this too, but also knows that if the dragon is killed, not only will he die, but the source of Hogwart's magic will disappear forever...(the dragon is guarding some fount of ancient magic, rather than a pile of gold this time, and this is the real reason DD won't leave Hogwarts for long, even to be Minister of Magic; this immense and hugely powerful dragon is also the only magical creature tough enough to do battle with the basilisk which has been loose down there for the last 1000 years). Needless to say, our trusty hero will be the only one who can possibly defend DD and Hogwarts against this dastardly threat, and he will obligingly leap into the fray at some inopportune moment. But in killing off Tom, DD knows that Harry may well kill off himself, because of the transfer of powers that happened at Godric's Hollow. There is also a good chance the dragon will kill them both anyway, it being pretty terrifying, and not very particular when its attacked. So, another pesky moral dilemma for DD, to let Voldy live or die ?? What's the best thing for the WW ? For Harry ? For himself ? No wonder he thinks there are things worse than death. Next creaky installment of this totally unsupported theory coming soon ... From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sun Feb 8 17:56:19 2004 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:56:19 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No mystery guest in OOP? Message-ID: <74.3816288e.2d57d243@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90469 In a message dated 2/8/2004 2:42:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, gbannister10 at aol.com writes: > Geoff: > > Into that category, I would put the revelation that Dolores Umbridge > set the Dementors on Harry. Up to that point, I considered her a > vicious and sadistic woman but that shifted my view of her > considerably. Whether it fits your criterion or not, I don't know.... Cassie: Hmm...maybe. However, unlike the other characters in the books who revealed themselves to be evil at the end, Umbridge was 'evil' throughout. The others tried to help Harry and really did fool him. I can imagine Harry being shocked she did this, but not shocked that she was the one who did it (especially after the terrible things she's done and what a terrible woman she is) Maybe that's my criteria. Good characters that WE would have never expected to be the villian. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sun Feb 8 18:12:06 2004 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:12:06 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No mystery guest in OOP? Message-ID: <1f0.188c2820.2d57d5f6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90470 Amy Z: To that phrasing of the question I would answer that it's in Dumbledore's office, delivered by Dumbledore, with the teaser JKR gave us when the publication date was announced in January '03:? "I am now going to tell you everything."? The "everything" being "the question you asked me at the end of PS."? It isn't the villain- revealed moment you're talking about, but it is much bigger than any of those revelations, because it's about the mystery of the whole series. > How's that, Lord Cassandra? Any help? Cassie: Well, it does solve the 'mystery of the series' and there were more little mysteries throughout (what's up with that door Harry keeps dreaming about? Why is Hagrid all beat up? Why won't Dumbledore look at Harry? Who sent that Howler and what does it mean? etc...) Hmm...Ok, new approach: The other books seem to lead us on. They have their share of little mysteries, like the ones I mentioned in OoP. Maybe it's just me and I need to reread the book, but there wasn't really any part where there was a shocking revelation and everything just fell into place. I've been trying to figure out why OoP was a bit...disappointing for me (Well, I loved the Snape scenes. and the Lucius scenes. and the mentions of Quirrell, Snape, and Lucius. *_*) I suppose. It's good to have the change and not have the same plot line all the time, yes. But, like I said, I was a bit disappointed. XP ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sun Feb 8 18:14:18 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:14:18 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] No mystery guest in OOP? References: <1f1.186dd46f.2d56dddf@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901c3ee6f$5f7cc9a0$de5aaacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90471 ~Cassie~: > In every book thusfar (other than OOP, unless I'm missing something) there > has been a revealing at the end where we learn one of the characters is evil. > > PS/SS: Quirrell > CoS: Tom Riddle/Voldemort > PoA: Scabbers/Wormtail > GoF: Mood/Crouch JR > > Where is the mystery and the unveiling in OOP? Heh-I don't know why this > is bothering me...but...worth a thought. Well, my first thought was Harry himself; he's "hosting" Voldemort in a more active fashion than ever previously, to the point of being manipulated quite handily; and then is subsequently "cleansed." This fits the "two identities in one person" theme the earlier ones present, too. In essence divided; whether by nature or forcible entry. ~Amanda From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Feb 8 18:26:49 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:26:49 -0000 Subject: Entering the Chamber In-Reply-To: <76A31187-5A51-11D8-8F7F-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90472 Kneasy: > >To do so it had to leave the Chamber; but Myrtle has apparently seen nothing unusual in her bathroom recently. Isn't this a bit odd? There sits Myrtle, alone and palely loitering in her U-bend, desperate for company or someone she can nag, and she is not aware of the multiple Basilisk forays that cause such a fuss, nor did she notice Ginny using the bathroom to access the Chamber.<< Pippin responds: But Myrtle goes abroad frequently. She attends the Deathday party, she spies on the Prefect's Bathroom, and while she's in the U-bend she can be flushed down to the lake. Possessed!Ginny can wait till Percy goes to take a bath or she can simply flush Myrtle out of the way. Kneasy: >>Tell me, how did Tom get *out* of the Chamber all those years ago? He certainly didn't use Fawkes. It's a long slide down to the bottom - and there are no steps.<< Pippin: The basilisk itself speaks parseltongue and it obeys Tom's commands. He could cast a disillusionment charm on himself, have the monster deliver him to the bathroom, then order it to return to the Chamber. Kneasy: >> Harry first hears the Basilisk during his detention with Lockhart - this is within the first few days of the start of the school year.Is it likely that Ginny has already opened the Chamber in that short time? << Yes. When Harry saw Hagrid that morning, there was a half-plucked rooster on his kitchen table. This was Ginny's doing (the cause of the uproar among the birds which Harry heard earlier that morning) and it proves that she was already under Tom's control. Kneasy: >> He's been spying on Hagrid and his little pet and Aragog knows all about Basilisks. He fears them and begs Hagrid to let him leave. He doesn't tell Hagrid what it is that he fears but a brilliant scholar like Tom may have reasoned it out in much the same way as the Trio, especially Hermione, did later. Acromantula - spiders - obsessive fear - Basilisk! Pipes - pipework - bathrooms. Check 'em out! Yippee! Jackpot!<< Pippin: Hmm....I don't think Aragog knew about the basilisk before it was let out of the Chamber. It couldn't leave the statue of Slytherin until it was called...but may be there's another way out of its lair that doesn't lead into the castle. What did it live on for 1000 years? It must have been eating something to get that big. Kneasy: > so it's highly likely that he had been down there before Myrtle >came eyeball-to-eyeball with her nemesis. Pippin: Yes. Riddle himself says "all these attacks" when speaking to Dippet. Kneasy: >>Remember the timings in that event: Myrtle was being happily miserable in her cubicle, hears someone speaking, unlocks the door and faces her ultimate Freudian nightmare. Not enough time for Tom to slide down to the Chamber and call the monster from Salazars statue; the Basilisk was not sleeping, it was up and about and eager to be out and at 'em. Something, presumably Tom, had already primed it for action.<< I always figured Tom and his little pet were on their way *back* to the Chamber after a foray. They entered the bathroom from the corridor. Pippin From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 18:35:55 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:35:55 -0000 Subject: No mystery guest in OOP? In-Reply-To: <1f0.188c2820.2d57d5f6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90473 ~Cassie~ said I've been trying to figure out why OoP was a bit...disappointing for me (Well, I loved the Snape scenes. and the Lucius scenes. and the mentions of Quirrell, Snape, and Lucius. *_*) I suppose. It's good to have the change and not have the same plot line all the time, yes. But, like I said, I was a bit disappointed. I bet that this book will be one of the most critical of the series when all is said and done. She couldn't just follow the same plot line as before...Start out innocent-Some weird things happen- Something terrible happens at a quidditch match-trio try to solve mystery-trio solve the problem right before summer brake...The fourth and fifth books are starting to brake away from this already, but when all is finished, and we look back, we will find certain things in these last few books that may have seemed trivial but will then seem so important. StarWars for instance...the second movie, nothing really HAPPENED...a few people get frozen, etc etc, but nothing big happens, but it is critical to the series. Andrew From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 8 18:41:30 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:41:30 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90474 snip > Well, I think this is a bit startling. Would Harry really, now that > he knows the Crucio curse and has in his mind a good reason to hate > Snape, go so far as to hurt him? And enjoy it? I don't want to go > into 'who's to blame for Sirius death' debates. It is enough, that > Harry thinks Snape got Sirius killed. In those examples from GoF > Snape has only insulted Harry with words and it triggers such violent > fantasies in him. What will happen now, that Harry thinks Snape is > responsible for Sirius death? There is no denying that he is a bit > unhinged. Would Harry expose Snape as a spy or challenge him to a > duel maybe? Any thoughts? > > Clio, > who thinks AngryTeenager!Harry and curses might prove to be a > explosive combination It is always an interesting possibility that Harry will retaliate against Snape in some way. I think there may come a time when he is faced with the choice of exposing Snape as a member of the Order or protecting him. For me I think he will protect him thus evening the "score". Snape has also constantly made a point of telling Harry that he is not in any way special. I found his comments in the Occlumency chapter in OotP most interesting. At that point he KNOWS there is something very special about Harry, and if it is true that Snape is the one who overheard the profecy then he would have know before for Harry was born that he was special. In the section you quoted Harry says "a hate he has not felt since that night at the Dursley's". He does not say a hate comperable to what he felt at Bellatrix Lestrange. He has shown himself capable of hurling a hex in the moments following total devestation, but he has also shown himself capable of feeling great compassion for Snape. I don't believe he will attack Snape, I think it is time for Harry to show Snape who he really is in book 6. He is getting mature enough (or at least old enough) to stand his ground with many of the adults around him, including Snape. By the way, as totally compelling as it is, I HATE the idea of Voldemort snaking his way into Harry's mind and creating havoc there, too sad! :( Sue From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 18:50:00 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:50:00 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's house Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90475 What house was Hagrid in at Hogwarts? It seems odd that Tom Riddle would have known about Aragog. Wouldn't Hagrid have to have been in Slytherin for Tom to be able to do this? Andrew From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 18:53:11 2004 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:53:11 -0000 Subject: Entering the Chamber In-Reply-To: <76A31187-5A51-11D8-8F7F-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90476 --- Kneasy wrote: > Since I submitted the original Possession post a week or so ago, > aspects of the whole Chamber question have been bothering me. < Agreeing with Kneasy, I think there is very likely to be several entrances to the Chamber. In fact, I think many of the secret passageways in Hogwarts are related the the Chamber. I think this fact was demonstrated when Ron's wand malfunction in the Chamber tunnel FAR below Hogwarts was able to cause a cave-in and block the roomy passageway way up on the 4th floor. This is the secret passageway that the twins and Sirius mention. I think this is good evidence that at least those two passageways are related. I think most or all of them are related - and many of them lead out. I think that it wasn't the CHAMBER that was unlocked from the bathroom, but the enclosure that was keeping the BASILISK caged. We know that the Basilisk had free roam of the lower chamber because of the animal skeletons at the bottom of the chute. But I think it could not go farther until the sink mechanism opened a lock somewhere between the bathroom and the lower chamber. At that point, it was free to travel through the entire network of pipes and tunnels, from which point Harry was able to hear it. > Tell me, how did Tom get *out* of the Chamber all those years > ago? He certainly didn't use Fawkes. It's a long slide down to the > bottom - and there are no steps. > As to how Tom got *out* of the chamber, I think it could have happened thus: We know that the Basilisk was able to get into the bathroom after it had been opened. We also know that Tom could speak to the Basilisk and that it took his orders. Tom could have told the snake to carry him back to the bathroom and then return to its lair far below. Then Tom could reseal the lock mechanism using parseltongue, thereby capturing the snake back in the lower chambers until the next unsealing. > Harry first hears the Basilisk during his detention with Lockhart - > this is within the first few days of the start of the school year. Is > it likely that Ginny has already opened the Chamber in that short time? Harry did not notice any snakey sounds in his first year, so the Basilisk seemed to be out of the way until Ginny actually freed it from Myrtle's bathroom, which I think could have happened early on, before Ginny started to become suspicious. Yeah. I think Ginny could have opened it within that short amount of time. > > I strongly suspect that there is another entrance.. Bets? > I wouldn't bet against you on that, Kneasy, although I came to suspect the network of passageways, of which the Chamber is a part, because of my thinking about how Quirrell (<-- obligatory Quirrell mention) might have escaped the dungeon. I DO believe that the Chamber has other entrances. For one thing, how did all the animals get into the Chamber to become Basilisk food? Rats, ok. Rats are everywhere. But it says "other small creatures". I think some of the other entrances are small enough for small creatures to get in, but not big enough for enormous basilisk snakes to get out. If all the secret passageways in Hogwarts link up to the Chamber, which I think is a possibility, then an interesting thought presents: One of the secret passageways leads to Honeydukes. Does anyone think that kindly Mr. Honeyduke is unaware of a hole in his storeroom? He doesn't have stuff piled on it, so he seems to be keeping it clear for some reason. Perhaps he is purposefully allowing unknown beings access to Hogsmeade through his storeroom? Maybe this is where the fabled vampires live? And how about the other secret passageways? The twins know of several which they haven't told us, the readers, about. And I'd bet a sickle that there are even more that not even the Twins found. Did Salazar build all those, too? Where do they go and why? The head reels. There is much to be straightened out in the next two books. ~ Constance Vigilance From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 19:11:41 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 19:11:41 -0000 Subject: Posession etc. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90477 Kneasy said There seems to be a growing expectation among fans that the Chamber of Secrets holds, or held, more than just a Basilisk. Its very name endorses the idea. Secrets - plural. Some expect that JKR will return us to the Chamber in a future volume, and there is that tantalising hint that she nearly gave away the key to the story in CoS. Enough there to attract any red-blooded theoriser. Andrew When did she say this, could you please point me to this, honestly. I would like to read it. Kneasy said And possession is how you do it. An Heir inherits possessions ('scuse the pun) and the first to enter gets possessed. Can't have some do-gooder ruining Salazars little plan, can we? So there was something in there that trapped whoever entered and took them over for Salazar's own ends. Andrew Since when is Salazar so evil. Didn't Dumbledore specifically say that Godric and Salazar were best friends? I don't think that Salazar was truly evil, he just had no respect for muggle borns, thought of them as sub-wizard. Maybe he didn't have the intent to kill the muggle borns. Just to scare them off. If im wrong, tell me please. Carolyn said I can envisage a brisk and bloody battle taking place on Hogwart's boundaries, and we all think Tom/Voldy is trying to get in to get at Harry, but actually Tom's suddenly realised he has to get in to get to the dragon under Hogwart's first, and kill it, in order to finally vanquish his oldest and deepest foe, Dumbledore. Needless to say, our trusty hero will be the only one who can possibly defend DD and Hogwarts against this dastardly threat, and he will obligingly leap into the fray at some inopportune moment. But in killing off Tom, DD knows that Harry may well kill off himself, because of the transfer of powers that happened at Godric's Hollow. There is also a good chance the dragon will kill them both anyway, it being pretty terrifying, and not very particular when its attacked. Andrew Nice bit of fanfiction. Does it make any sense to the HP plot? Do you think JKR would build all of this up, have her favorite character go through such pain, and not even be the 'one' that matters. Don't forget the prophecy. Carolyn said So, another pesky moral dilemma for DD, to let Voldy live or die ?? What's the best thing for the WW ? For Harry ? For himself ? No wonder he thinks there are things worse than death. Andrew The fat of the wizarding world isn't in the hands of Dumbledore, Dumbledore knows that. The fat of the world is in Harry. Harry will be more powerfull that Dumbledore eventually. Be it with the aid of the power in the department of mysteries. From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 19:16:36 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 19:16:36 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90478 By the way, as totally compelling as it is, I HATE the idea of Voldemort snaking his way into Harry's mind and creating havoc there, too sad! :( Sue I agree. You can't always speculate like that, and actually expect anything in the story. It is JKR's story and you have to think what she is likely to do. Will she do certain things to destroy the charactar she created, I highly doubt it. Plus this is a 'childrens' book. Well, not anymore. Just as Lord of the Rings wasn't a childrens book at all. You always have to remember these are charactars that JKR created, not real people. Andrew From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun Feb 8 19:43:31 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 19:43:31 -0000 Subject: FILK: Molly, Don't Put My Healer Down Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90479 Molly, Don't Put My Healer Down (OOP, Chap. 23) To the tune of Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town by Kenny Rogers Dedicated to Star Opal Hear a MIDI at: http://www.smickandsmodoo.com/aaa/lyrics/ruby.htm or http://www.jacquedee63.com/ruby.html THE SCENE: St. Mungo's, First Floor, Dai Llewellyn Ward. ARTHUR WEASLEY is in major trouble with his better half when she learns that he has been fooling around "snake-oil" medical treatments ARTHUR: You're pursing up your lips and yelled, and actin' like you was ticked Molly, are you contemplating going ballistic? The stitches on my wound, I see, are causing you to frown Oh Molly, don't put my Healer down. It wasn't me that asked that snake to crawl across the floor When I stood as secret guard for Albus Dumbledore. And yes, you know how I'm game for Muggle remedies Oh, Molly, it's complementary The Trainee Healer, `Gustus Pye, is quite a lovely chap And he wants to see if a method like this will the snake venom zap And it may not work, it seems as though I'm gainin' no rebound Oh Molly, ask Smethwyck to come down They're leaving now, as I observe my sons sneak out the door They want to run before their Mum proclaims her famous roar And if I could move, I'd flee her wrath at twice the speed of sound Oh Molly, don't put your husband down. Oh Molly, for gosh sakes, put that down - CMC (feeling guilty over leaving poor Arthur in such dire straits) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun Feb 8 19:46:46 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:46:46 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's revenge on Snape? References: Message-ID: <002b01c3ee7c$4984c820$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90480 {Sue} By the way, as totally compelling as it is, I HATE the idea of Voldemort snaking his way into Harry's mind and creating havoc there, too sad! :( {Andrew} I agree. You can't always speculate like that, and actually expect anything in the story. It is JKR's story and you have to think what she is likely to do. Will she do certain things to destroy the charactar she created, I highly doubt it. Plus this is a 'childrens' book. Well, not anymore. Just as Lord of the Rings wasn't a childrens book at all. You always have to remember these are charactars that JKR created, not real people. {Anne} Well....no offence, but why not? If we can speculate Snape is a vampire, why not the possibility that Harry is open to manipulation? Rowling has indeed opened the possibility--the things Snape tells Harry during Occulimency lessons supports it...(You allow emotion to rule you, a Leglimens can get into your mind and wreck havoc). Not to mention that Voldemort did indeed invade Harry's mind in the fifth book and played the kid for exactly what he wanted Harry to do...not only that, but Harry's 'open door' to his own mind has not been closed yet, either. He's still linked to Voldemort...and he still has not learned any decent level in Occulimens as of the end of the book... I'm not suggesting that its permanent thing that would happen either...after all, Harry is being made out (at least from clues that are constantly sited from the Harry supporters...and yes, before I get blasted for that, I do agree he is the hero of the books...if a bit messed up at the moment), to be **above average** as a wizard. He may be open to manipulation, but that doesn't mean he'd fall permanent prey to it. Many of the best legends and fantasy stories (even children stories), deal with the 'what is *really* the 'right' thing to do' issue...no matter what you WANT to do because you are hurt, upset, abandoned, hated, etc...and it includes what happens to the hero when he 'screws it up'...and then the final victory over himself when he finally gets the idea of what really *is* right or wrong...("A Self Divided" anyone?) Harry at this point in the books has been set up as angry, hurt, and betrayed, including by the adults he has trusted the most. He is being confronted by issues that will shape his very being for the rest of his life...and 'good' he may be...but at some point he will (or should, if Rowling really is rounding out his character), have to decide for himself what moral code he will follow, whether it's going after Snape in revenge, or defeating Voldemort. And the possibility of possession is likely to force that on him--after all, if he's being pushed to do something he wants to do anyway by an outside force (or has envisioned doing in his mind, such as taking 'revenge' on Snape) , would he do it? Especially if he was relatively unaware of the outside influence... Now, to clarify, I'm not saying he would...in fact, if he's as sparkling clean soul-wise as he 'should' be as the hero, then some part of him will refuse at the critical moment....and that will be his salvation and the block that keeps him from ever jumping off that 'moral cliff'. In which case, the victory will be stunning, both for him (and hopefully) for the readers...after all, if he does the 'right' thing after all, despite Voldy, despite his own still relatvely immature impulses, than that is a huge victory indeed... I will agree that it all boils down to what Rolwing wants to do with her characters....and you are right that she may not go that route...then again, she might. The ground work is there for the possibility to occur...and, as a final thought for those objecting to the idea that Harry would not do such an 'evil' thing... Remember, he is human...remember also that Rowling has an uncanny ability to make her characters very human as well....and remember that even the best of humanity can screw up and do the wroing thing...Even Dumbledore admits that at the end of book 5. The question, as always, is what do you do after that? Do you allow it to drag you further down into the morass of Darkness (as in Tom/Voldy's case)? Or do you bravely fight your way out of it? I'm all for seeing Gryffindor's finest fight his way out of it. It would be a hell of a victory, and proof that even the most evil of us all has a chance for redemption...if we bother to take it... Anne (Silverthorne) From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 20:05:34 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 20:05:34 -0000 Subject: Time of Possession (was Re: Entering the Chamber) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90481 Kneasy (in a rather brilliant post) asked: > > Harry first hears the Basilisk during his detention with Lockhart - > > this is within the first few days of the start of the school year. > Is > > it likely that Ginny has already opened the Chamber in that short > time? To which Constance Vigilance answered: > Harry did not notice any snakey sounds in his first year, so the > Basilisk seemed to be out of the way until Ginny actually freed it > from Myrtle's bathroom, which I think could have happened early on, > before Ginny started to become suspicious. Yeah. I think Ginny could > have opened it within that short amount of time. To which I, Ginger, now add: (all quotes CoS US paperback unless otherwise indicated) I am certain there would have been time. TR tells Harry that he had been listening to Ginny as she "poured out her soul". He then grew stronger (p. 310) and, well, we know the rest. So how much time did she have to "pour out her soul"? 31 July-Harry's b-day/Mason party/Harry shut in his room 3 Aug.-Harry has been in his room for 3 days, (p. 22)/rescued by the Weasleys. (p. 23) 4 Aug.-Harry arrives (early morning) at the Burrow 11? Aug.-Harry gets letter from Hogwarts ("about a week after his arrival" p. 43)/letter arrives from Hermione asking them to meet "next Wednesday" in Diagon Alley (p. 45) So Ginny gets the diary on "next Wednesday". Now I know JKR is dodgy on dates, but in PS/SS, Harry's birthday is on a Tuesday (SS p.43 paperback). Since his 11th birthday is in 1991 (using the generally accepted timeline based on Nick's deathday), then his 12th birthday is in 1992, which, if I recall, was a leap year. That makes his birthday fall on a Thursday in CoS. That makes the 11th a Monday. So the Wednesday in question would have to be the 13th or the 20th. The letter arrived "about a week after his arrival" so it could have come anywhere betweed the 9th and the 13th, giving a couple of days leeway. Had it arrived on the 9th, 10th or 11th, then the trip to DA would have been on the 13th. Had it arrived on the 12th or 13th, then they would have gone the 20th. All I have to go on it the quote that "Mrs Weasley woke them all early the following Wednesday." (p. 47), which doesn't really narrow it down much. She would have had either 11 or 18 days to write before she even reached Hogwarts. A girl about to go away from home for the first time can write a *whole lot* in a diary in a week or two, especially if the diary is so sympathetic and kind (p. 309). Which makes me wonder- on p. 66, Ginny forgot her diary. Did she know in some way that it was bad, and forgot it on purpose, but was forced by TR to retrieve it? Or did she just honestly forget it and remember on her own? Ginger, who has never had to correct her own post so many times before sending! From charlot7542 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 15:43:40 2004 From: charlot7542 at yahoo.com (charlot7542) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 15:43:40 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90482 Kneasy wrote: > Maybe it's me. Perhaps I imagine things and I haven't written what I think > I've written. But, please, please, please, could someone explain to me why > when I say that I believe Snape's behaviour towards Harry and Neville is an > act, everybody ignores that part of my post. Charlotte: I'm not ignoring this part of your post - I agree that it is partly an act, but I also think the behaviour comes a little too easily to him. Kneasy: And there, I > strongly suspect, his reaction was not because of what Harry saw, but > what he *might* have seen. Harry seeing Snape embarassed is one > thing, Harry seeing something critical, secret, or dangerous about Snape > and Voldy would be something else again. (Nobody ever asks about the > other memories Snape put in the Pensieve.) Charlotte: This is a valid point - I would dearly love to know the content of those two other memories in the pensieve. >Kneasy: > Don't get me wrong, Snape is never going to adopt Harry; he almost > certainly sees him as a pain in the neck that he could do without, but > do you really think that he doesn't understand how important Harry is > to Dumbledore's plan? With maybe Neville as first reserve? Of course > he does. All his actions towards Harry are calculated. Only once has > he ever physically threatened Harry, despite all the provocation thrown > at him, at that was when Harry delved into the Pensieve. > > We all knowingly repeat how foolish it is to take JKR's characterisations > at face value; how she deliberately misleads. Are there so many posters > that consciously and deliberately stifle their suspicions when looking at > Snape? Just because he's sarcastic? You fall in my estimation if you do. Charlotte: Yes, but the whole point JKR is trying to get accross is that even the best of us make mistakes and errors in judgement (even DD) and it's impossible to classify anyone as completely evil or completely good. As Harry grows, so too does his understanding of the world around him - hence a definite movement away from black and white character labels. Not all sadistic people are Death Eaters (Umbridge), and equally not all those who fight on the side of good are always controlled and able to master nagative emotions (Sirius for eg). Snape, is a flawed person, who nevertheless fights, for whatever reason, against the forces of darkness. But, just because he works for the Order and Dumbledore doesn't mean that every single action is calculated to aid this cause. You're allowing him an almost superhuman emotional control when you assume that all his negative bullying behaviour stems entirely from a subjective desire to help Harry. That doesn't allow for the much more interesting complexities of a man, who does much to help Harry and his cause, but nevertheless can't ever completely curb his jealousy and dislike. Charlotte From c_robocker at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 15:07:22 2004 From: c_robocker at yahoo.com (c_robocker) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 15:07:22 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble (longer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90483 Ravenclaw Bookworm: > Also, Hagrid attributes the pig's tail (instead of a complete pig) > to Dudley's personality - "Meant ter turn him into a pig, but I > suppse he was so much like a pig anyway there wasn't much left ter > do." (p59) As angry as he was, I think there would have been a lot > of magical weight behind his spell, but it didn't work. Hagrid > isn't the most reliable source. I think he found the easiest answer > to fit the situation. > > But is it really what happened? I don't think so. I think there > are a few more puzzle pieces that JKR hasn't given us yet. Very interesting. I bought my daughter the "Chamber of Secrets" computer game for Christmas. In it, one of the spells is "MimbleWimble or Stuttering Charm "Causes your opponent to mess up his or her next spell." JKR was involved in some portions of the development of this game according to the credits. This implies to me that Vernon might have a bit more WW knowledge than I realized. And if he really did utter a charm, and it was effective (Hagrid's attempt to turn Dudley into a pig only succeeded in Dudley gaining a tail), then is Vernon capable of magic? Yikes! CRobo From kirklander368 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 8 09:09:11 2004 From: kirklander368 at hotmail.com (burnoweatherhead) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 09:09:11 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90484 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "armadillof" wrote: > Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus can be interpreted as a 'rough' > latin. (Few exceptions such as nunquam=numquam; slight spelling > modifications et al). I interpret it generally as meaning "the > snake never sleep peacefully". > draco=snake > nunquam=never > dormiens=sleep > titillandus=peacefully It's a strange amalgam of Latin. The 'draco' and 'dormiens' go together as a noun + gerund = 'sleeping snake' or 'sleeping dragon'. 'Nunquam' *is* as allowable as 'numquam' so no problems there. 'Titillandus' is peculiar as it's not an imperative ('titillate', which would demand either an accusative 'draconem' or dative 'draconi') but a gerundive of 'titillare', meaning 'needing to be tickled' but I'm not sure it 'agrees' grammatically with the noun 'draco'. What you are left with is not 'Never tickle a sleeping dragon/snake' but 'A sleeping dragon never needs to be tickled' which isn't quite the same thing necessarily. The 'draco' pronunciation should by all reasoning hold for Draco's name too and I implement this when reading the books to my children. Burno, whose first post this is. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 20:12:45 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 20:12:45 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: <002b01c3ee7c$4984c820$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: > {Sue} > > > {Anne} > > Well....no offence, but why not? If we can speculate Snape is a vampire, why > not the possibility that Harry is open to manipulation? Rowling has indeed > opened the possibility--the things Snape tells Harry during Occulimency > lessons supports it...(You allow emotion to rule you, a Leglimens can get > into your mind and wreck havoc). Not to mention that Voldemort did indeed > invade Harry's mind in the fifth book and played the kid for exactly what he > wanted Harry to do...not only that, but Harry's 'open door' to his own mind > has not been closed yet, either. He's still linked to Voldemort...and he > still has not learned any decent level in Occulimens as of the end of the > book... > Of course, Harry's being manipulated again is as valid theory as any. I personally believe that it will not happen simply because it will be anti-climatic. It already happened as a major plot point and I don't believe that JKR will repeat herself. When she introduces something for the second time, usually at first it played a minor role in the plot development, not as significant as in the OoP I also believe that JKR does not lie int he interviews, she usually avoids the questions she does not want to answer and I believe that she said that harry will not be tempted by darkness (I probably mentioned it in the past, but I may be wrong and I don't have a link) I also already wrote a post that I have faith in Harry's moral code, so I won't repeat myself. I think that Harry will learn Occlumency in book 6 (unless Severus will be his teacher again, of course :o)). > I'm not suggesting that its permanent thing that would happen either...after > all, Harry is being made out (at least from clues that are constantly sited > from the Harry supporters...and yes, before I get blasted for that, I do > agree he is the hero of the books...if a bit messed up at the moment), to be > **above average** as a wizard. He may be open to manipulation, but that > doesn't mean he'd fall permanent prey to it. Many of the best legends and > fantasy stories (even children stories), deal with the 'what is *really* the > 'right' thing to do' issue...no matter what you WANT to do because you are > hurt, upset, abandoned, hated, etc...and it includes what happens to the > hero when he 'screws it up'...and then the final victory over himself when > he finally gets the idea of what really *is* right or wrong...("A Self > Divided" anyone?) > This is very strange indeed. Usually in the heroic quest I LOVE the hero to fight off the possession of the dark forces, but I have NO DESIRE whatsoever to see Harry doing that. I think Rowling can put a moral dilemma for him without Voldie being in his mind again. At least I would hope so. > Harry at this point in the books has been set up as angry, hurt, and > betrayed, including by the adults he has trusted the most. He is being > confronted by issues that will shape his very being for the rest of his > life...and 'good' he may be...but at some point he will (or should, if > Rowling really is rounding out his character), have to decide for himself > what moral code he will follow, whether it's going after Snape in revenge, > or defeating Voldemort. Oh, I sincerely hope that he will get some sort of revenge on Snape without breaking his moral code. (Like I don't know, saving his life at the end and making Snape to be int he Potter's debt all over again ;o)) Alla From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Sun Feb 8 20:16:31 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 20:16:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90486 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" > I agree. You can't always speculate like that, and actually expect > anything in the story. It is JKR's story and you have to think what > she is likely to do. Will she do certain things to destroy the > charactar she created, I highly doubt it. Plus this is a 'childrens' > book. Well, not anymore. Just as Lord of the Rings wasn't a > childrens book at all. You always have to remember these are > charactars that JKR created, not real people. > > Andrew You're kidding, right? Not real people? Where did that come from? Oh oh..... another illusion shattered. Inge From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 20:25:34 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 20:25:34 -0000 Subject: Harry, Neville, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "charlot7542" wrote: > Kneasy wrote: > > Maybe it's me. Perhaps I imagine things and I haven't written what > I think > > I've written. But, please, please, please, could someone explain > to me why > > when I say that I believe Snape's behaviour towards Harry and > Neville is an > > act, everybody ignores that part of my post. > Oh, Kneasy, I sincerely apologise from snipping your post from the reply. But I could not find it. So, I am going to do that. It could be an act. In fact, believe it or not I supported this theory 99.99% before OoP came out. It can still be an act and you are right, there are significant evidence, which supports that. Nevertheless, I believe that Dumbledore's "I forgot that some wounds..." support the theory that Snape was upset that Harry saw that specific memory and not two others. I could be very wrong, of course. > Charlotte: > This is a valid point - I would dearly love to know the content of > those two other memories in the pensieve. > > > >Kneasy: > > We all knowingly repeat how foolish it is to take JKR's > characterisations > > at face value; how she deliberately misleads. Are there so many > posters > > that consciously and deliberately stifle their suspicions when > looking at > > Snape? Just because he's sarcastic? You fall in my estimation if > you do. I AM NOT taking Snape's characterisation at the face value. Even if it will turn out that he was acting all along and was Harry's guardian angel, etc, I am taking a huge issue with the way he is doing it. Many Snapologists stated that Harry has to learn that being nice is not necessarily the same as being a good person. But in many ethical systems IT IS. Yes, evil git pretending to be kind to Harry is worse than someone, who is not evil, but deliberately cruel. Nevertheless, I take someone who is kind and the Light supporter over the second one. What I am trying to say is that Ends do not always justify the Means. > Charlotte: > You're allowing him an > almost superhuman emotional control when you assume that all his > negative bullying behaviour stems entirely from a subjective desire > to help Harry. That doesn't allow for the much more interesting > complexities of a man, who does much to help Harry and his cause, > but nevertheless can't ever completely curb his jealousy and > dislike. > > Charlotte I hope I won't be yelled for saying that I agree wholeheartedly with this paragraph. Alla From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun Feb 8 20:41:42 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 14:41:42 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's revenge on Snape? References: Message-ID: <003901c3ee83$f5a40740$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90488 {Alla} Of course, Harry's being manipulated again is as valid theory as any. I personally believe that it will not happen simply because it will be anti-climatic. It already happened as a major plot point and I don't believe that JKR will repeat herself. When she introduces something for the second time, usually at first it played a minor role in the plot development, not as significant as in the OoP {Anne} Fair enough...but then she needs to find a way to get Harry's mind from Voldy soon then--right now, there is no resolution to keeping Harry from being manipulated again, other then 'It's been done already'. When that's pointed out in the Werewolf Lupin/Vampire Snape posts, it's never enough for people insisting on Vampire!Snape. When she resolves it conclusively, then, to me, the possibility is gone. Until then, it's possible. {Alla} I also believe that JKR does not lie int he interviews, she usually avoids the questions she does not want to answer and I believe that she said that harry will not be tempted by darkness (I probably mentioned it in the past, but I may be wrong and I don't have a link) {Anne} Being 'tempted' by the Darkness is not the same as being manipulated by it. Harry already thinks its all right to hate Snape and blame him for Sirius's death. Although that in and of itself is not 'bad'...it does lead the way to more extreme opinions, such as who deserves to 'suffer' for thier mistakes, be removed, etc. It's an easy trap to fall into, even for "Lightsiders", especially when they've been hurt by the person, situation, moral dilemma themselves (Crusades, Vietnam, WW2 and the Japanese)...and that erroneous assumption easily leads people to do bad things...whether or not they themselves are inherently evil...its a fundamental human flaw. {Alla} I also already wrote a post that I have faith in Harry's moral code, so I won't repeat myself. {Anne} I do to a point--he is still young, and can still make a lot of serious mistakes, all under the self-righteous belief that what he is doing is indeed right...the true morality will come when he realizes that sometimes he has to divorce himself from the situation to see it clearly, and thus make the correct choice (and that may not necassarily be the one his emotions are wanting him to make). And that is what I have faith in as 'Harry as the Hero'--that he'll be able to see past his own hurtful experiences to a more stable, balanced view of what's going on around him. He hasn't gotten there just yet, though...in fact, his own hurt and pain is making it hard indeed... {Alla} I think that Harry will learn Occlumency in book 6 (unless Severus will be his teacher again, of course :o)). {Anne} He may...and hopefully he will...I doubt Dumbledore will ask Snape to be the teacher agian though...Harry is far too emotionally pissed at Snape for that to happen, and Dumbly is aware of that fact. {Alla} This is very strange indeed. Usually in the heroic quest I LOVE the hero to fight off the possession of the dark forces, but I have NO DESIRE whatsoever to see Harry doing that. I think Rowling can put a moral dilemma for him without Voldie being in his mind again. At least I would hope so. {Anne} And usually I would say the same about a Vampiric former bad guy trying to do good (Snape as a Vampire), but not here. Snape is already messed up enough. Adding that inhuminty factor will only excuse his behiavior, not explain it--a cop out to say the least in regards to a very complicated, messed up man. But again, we won't know what Rowling will do...just that it will be intersting... {Alla} Oh, I sincerely hope that he will get some sort of revenge on Snape without breaking his moral code. (Like I don't know, saving his life at the end and making Snape to be int he Potter's debt all over again ;o)) {Anne} Personally, I would love to see some sort of understanding come between the two...not just a 'getting Snape in Harry's debt again' scenario (that falls under 'uneven' and 'self-righteous' revenge to me). But again, Harry will have to come to a much higher understanding of the human condition in all its forms for that to happen, because unless Snape really does a 180, it's not gonna happen. Unlike Snape, Harry is not set in his ways...yet. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 20:56:45 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 20:56:45 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's house In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > What house was Hagrid in at Hogwarts? It seems odd that Tom Riddle > would have known about Aragog. Wouldn't Hagrid have to have been in > Slytherin for Tom to be able to do this? > > Andrew bboy_mn: Well, we don't know for sure what house Hagrid was in but I think it's safe to say a majority of people assume he was a Gryffindor. As to how Tom could have found out about Aragog, it's probably because Slytherin's Commons Room and Dorms are in the Dungeons, and it was also in the dungeons that Hagrid kept Aragog. Tom may have seen Hargrid wandering around down there and followed him. Hagrid wouldn't have had to be a Slytherin, he would have only had to have been in Slytherin territory (the Dungeons). That would have raised enough suspicious on Tom's part to follow Hagrid and find out what he was up to. A couple of other things I noticed, Tom seems to have a very intense dislike for Hagrid, the could imply common Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry, and he seemed to have a very Umbridge-like attitude toward Hagrid that seemed directed at the fact that Hagrid was a half-breed. Although, what conclusions these points can lead us to, I'm not sure. Can't prove any of this, just speculation, but none the less, that's how I see it. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 21:07:39 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:07:39 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: <003901c3ee83$f5a40740$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90490 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: > Fair enough...but then she needs to find a way to get Harry's mind from > Voldy soon then--right now, there is no resolution to keeping Harry from > being manipulated again, other then 'It's been done already'. When that's > pointed out in the Werewolf Lupin/Vampire Snape posts, it's never enough for > people insisting on Vampire!Snape. When she resolves it conclusively, then, > to me, the possibility is gone. Until then, it's possible. > Yes, of course. Harry should learn to defend his mind against Voldy thing. > {Anne} > > Being 'tempted' by the Darkness is not the same as being manipulated by it. > Harry already thinks its all right to hate Snape and blame him for Sirius's > death. Although that in and of itself is not 'bad'...it does lead the way to > more extreme opinions, such as who deserves to 'suffer' for thier mistakes, > be removed, etc. It's an easy trap to fall into, even for "Lightsiders", > especially when they've been hurt by the person, situation, moral dilemma > themselves (Crusades, Vietnam, WW2 and the Japanese)...and that erroneous > assumption easily leads people to do bad things...whether or not they > themselves are inherently evil...its a fundamental human flaw. > Well, I agree with you, it is a human flaw, but where we disagree is that I don't believe that desire to hurt Snape will lead Harry on a apth of being manipulated by Darkness. > {Anne} > > I do to a point--he is still young, and can still make a lot of serious > mistakes, all under the self-righteous belief that what he is doing is > indeed right...the true morality will come when he realizes that sometimes > he has to divorce himself from the situation to see it clearly, and thus > make the correct choice (and that may not necassarily be the one his > emotions are wanting him to make). And that is what I have faith in as > 'Harry as the Hero'--that he'll be able to see past his own hurtful > experiences to a more stable, balanced view of what's going on around him. > He hasn't gotten there just yet, though...in fact, his own hurt and pain is > making it hard indeed... > Well, we differ again. :o) As I said I don't believe that switching the positions with Snape ( Harry having the upper hand, for once) will stop Harry from maturing. On the contrary, I believe that it will do both of them a lots of good. > {Anne} > > But again, we won't know what Rowling will do...just that it > will be intersting... > Of course. :) > {Alla} > > Oh, I sincerely hope that he will get some sort of revenge on Snape > without breaking his moral code. (Like I don't know, saving his life > at the end and making Snape to be int he Potter's debt all over > again ;o)) > > > {Anne} > > Personally, I would love to see some sort of understanding come between the > two...not just a 'getting Snape in Harry's debt again' scenario (that falls > under 'uneven' and 'self-righteous' revenge to me). But again, Harry will > have to come to a much higher understanding of the human condition in all > its forms for that to happen, because unless Snape really does a 180, it's > not gonna happen. Unlike Snape, Harry is not set in his ways...yet. Of course, I disagree. That would be a very nice type of revenge in my book. So far, "Uneven and self-righteous" are the words I would describe Snape's behaviour towards Harry and I don't see why child should change his ways before the adult does. Simply ebcause child is the main character of the book? If it wil turn out that Snape is unable to change his ways a little bit at least the end (No, I don't want him to become nice suddenly, I just want him to stop his petty revenge against the child of his chidhood enemy), I think that he has to die saving Harry, that would be the only way he can redeem himself in my book. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 21:15:15 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:15:15 -0000 Subject: No mystery guest in OOP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90491 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > I think that Books 5, 6 and 7 are going to form a much more > cohesive unit than the earlier books in the series.. We do have > Kreacher unmasked as a villain and Umbridge revealed as the > one who set the Dementors on Harry and Dudley. But many > other mysteries remain unresolved. > Yes, I view OoP as a first part of the trilogy. So many unresolved issues. :) Surely, the main mystery of the last three books is how the figh tagainst Voldie actually ends and of course we wil not learn anything about it before the end of book 7. > > I have a feeling that this situation will continue in Book 6, which > may end with an actual cliffhanger. > Please, no. :o) Although I have a feeling that you may be right. Alla From clio44a at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 21:25:32 2004 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:25:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90492 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > >By the way, as totally compelling as it is, I HATE the idea of > >Voldemort snaking his way into Harry's mind and creating havoc >there, >> too sad! :( >> >> Sue >> > > > I agree. You can't always speculate like that, and actually expect > anything in the story. It is JKR's story and you have to think what > she is likely to do. Will she do certain things to destroy the > charactar she created, I highly doubt it. Plus this is a 'childrens' > book. Well, not anymore. Just as Lord of the Rings wasn't a > childrens book at all. You always have to remember these are > charactars that JKR created, not real people. > > Andrew I do not think it is necessary for Voldemort to manipulate Harry to do something he will regret later. Harry is not thinking clearly at the end of OotP. He is mourning, he is frustrated about Dumbledore's behavior, and he is angry about the whole being kept in the dark about the prophecy and Order business stuff. I would not equal Harry doing something violent with destroying the character, btw. This story is after all about choices and moral growth. In order to mature Harry MUST make mistakes. And learn from them. In OotP JKR has lead Harry closer towards the abyss of bitterness and mental instability than I thought it would be possible for such a popular children's book. BTW, I think it is an insult of JKR's abilities as a writer to say quote: >You always have to remember these are >charactars that JKR created, >not real people. I believe it is due to the realism of the characters that the books became so popular. Well, back to the Harry/Snape hate problem. These two people will inevitably meet again. Given their characters I can hardly imagine either one of them to apologize and make peace with the other. It would be great, if Harry found the strength in him to do so, but I believe at this point of the series this is wishful thinking. Snape has just climbed in Harry's Most Hated People list in spot 2, right after Voldemort, but above Draco Malfoy, Umbridge and many people more. So, what is going to happen? I think these two are set up for a major clash. I can imagine that Snape taunts Harry until he leashes out violently. Maybe even with a Cruciatus. (See my original post why I think so.) Would JKR write that? Yes, because it is important what Harry thinks afterwards. I can picture him being disgusted with his own doing. And he will realize that violence does not help him in any way. He will not have fun seing someone in pain, and it will not ease his own pain about Sirius' death. This could be an important step in Harry's maturation. To recognize one's own mistake is a very important lesson. Would JKR write about physical violence? Yes. Injuries in the wizarding world are not a big deal. They can be mended very quickly and rarely have consequences (Moody is an exception). Especially Snape has been depicted in scenes of bodily violence before. He confronts Quirrell in PS, he duels with Lockhart in CoS, he throws Harry out of his office in OotP. He is wounded by Fluffy in PS, he receives a head wound in GoF and fights with James in OotP. JKR is certainly not afraid of letting him suffer. Harry hurting Snape would also tie in nicely with the whole 'James- the-bully' subplot. Harry feels sorry for Snape when he peeks into his pensieve. He doesn't want to be like his father. If he did something to Snape, he would prove Snape's constant 'You are just like your father' right. Like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Can you imagine how disgusted Harry would be with himself if that would happen? Harry's realization of what he is able to do when angry is in my opinion a much better basis for a peace with Snape than his anger at the end of book 5. After all it is Snape who says in the Occlumency lesson that one must learn to control one's emotions. See the common ground? Clio, who thinks Harry is too young to be a second Ghandi yet. From t.forch at mail.dk Sun Feb 8 21:49:37 2004 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 22:49:37 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid's house In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040208224109.02aa2b00@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 90493 At 20:56 08-02-04 +0000, Steve wrote: >Well, we don't know for sure what house Hagrid was in but I think it's >safe to say a majority of people assume he was a Gryffindor. According to an on-line chat Rowling has said that Hagrid indeed was in Gryffindor: HTH /Troels From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun Feb 8 21:51:34 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:51:34 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's revenge on Snape? References: Message-ID: <004301c3ee8d$b89cf780$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90494 {Alla} Yes, of course. Harry should learn to defend his mind against Voldy thing. {Anne} Yep. {Alla} Well, I agree with you, it is a human flaw, but where we disagree is that I don't believe that desire to hurt Snape will lead Harry on a apth of being manipulated by Darkness. {Anne} Oh No? It will lower him to Snape's level...and Voldemort's. It is, after all, the same thought process that leads the Death Eaters to kill, maim, torture Muggles and half-wizards...."This person is a horrid example of humanity/wizardness--therefore they deserve to suffer, deserve whatever horrid thing that comes their way...." Sound familiar? It should--it's the thought process that starts the Holocosts and genocidal wars of this world (and any other). Once you start down that path, then it becomes easier and easier each time to excuse the 'removal' of a certain type of person, simply because they do not follow the same social and moral rules that you do...Snape, horrid or not, is STILL a human being, and is still a living creature. Harry is still responsible for what he does to this human being....and a true hero does NOT repeat the mistakes of his enemies and oppressors...or he becomes them. Tom Riddle's story is already proof of that in the books....and Harry is Tom's flip side...."Those that hunt monsters...." {Alla} Well, we differ again. :o) As I said I don't believe that switching the positions with Snape ( Harry having the upper hand, for once) will stop Harry from maturing. On the contrary, I believe that it will do both of them a lots of good. {Anne} I don't think it will. What I think it will do is give him 'permission' to act as judge, jury, and executioner if he is allowed to continue feeding on his own hurt, hate, pride and self-riteousness. It won't teach Snape a damned thing to have the tables turned on him--James and company already did that to him throughout his teen years, and all it did was feed Snape's hatred. Harry continuing that will only feed Snape's (assumed by us) opinion that Harry is truly his father's son in this. And all it will do for Harry is teach him to be a bully like his father was....it certainly won't teach him that most 'lightside' quality of all--the ability to forgive, even if the person you're forgiving isn't 'worthy'. To me, that is a true hero....anyone can dish out the same 'medicine' to another person--it takes a much stronger, morally active person to succeed in learning not to give into that base desire. What you're suggesting is that Harry learns true, unadulterated hate for another being, and exercise in it....something Voldemort himself excels in. {Alla} Of course, I disagree. That would be a very nice type of revenge in my book. So far, "Uneven and self-righteous" are the words I would describe Snape's behaviour towards Harry and I don't see why child should change his ways before the adult does. Simply ebcause child is the main character of the book? {Anne} No, because if he is truly the *hero* of the book, I expect *Heroic* abilities from him, including being more grown up and mature than his nemesis, no matter whoo is older than whom. If he is the penultimate expression of good, courage, and heroism, than I expect more than a bit of petty revenge for hurt feelings out of him. His father made that mistake...and look at how it shaped several people's fates.... {Alla} If it will turn out that Snape is unable to change his ways a little bit at least the end (No, I don't want him to become nice suddenly, I just want him to stop his petty revenge against the child of his chidhood enemy), I think that he has to die saving Harry, that would be the only way he can redeem himself in my book {Anne} That's truly, truly harsh and judgemental. People can be cruel and stupid, blind and horrid...but to expect Death to be the only resolve for them ignores the chance, no matter how slight, that they may find redemption (a theme that most of us on the list seem to agree Snape is about to one degree or another. Whether or not he manages it is an other issue entirely...). And I find that even more depressing than the 'bad guy' winning in the end--because then, the 'Lightside' itself has given into the 'Darkside's' moral values.... From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Feb 8 22:03:41 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 22:03:41 -0000 Subject: Entering the Chamber In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90496 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Miller" wrote: Constance Vigilance: > I think this > fact was demonstrated when Ron's wand malfunction in the Chamber > tunnel FAR below Hogwarts was able to cause a cave-in and block the > roomy passageway way up on the 4th floor. This is the secret > passageway that the twins and Sirius mention. I think this is good > evidence that at least those two passageways are related. I think > most or all of them are related - and many of them lead out. > Geoff: I must be being a bit thick but where did that idea come from? According to canon, Fred speaking.... "'Don't bother with the one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. We used it until last winter but it's caved in - completely blocked.'" (POA "The Marauder's Map" p.144 UK edition) This is in the November of 1993. So the cave-in was in the winter of 1992. but Harry's confrontation with the basilisk was in the summer of '93 at the end of his second year. "Ten minutes into the class, Professor McGonagall told them that their exams would start on the first of June, one week from today." (COS "The Chamber of Secrets" p.210 UK edition) And Ginny was taken into the chamber three days before this date (i.e. 29th May). "Three days before their first exam, Professor McGonagall made another announcement at breakfast." (p.211 same chapter) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 22:57:52 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 22:57:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: <004301c3ee8d$b89cf780$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90498 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: > > {Anne} > > Oh No? It will lower him to Snape's level...and Voldemort's. It is, after > all, the same thought process that leads the Death Eaters to kill, maim, > torture Muggles and half-wizards...."This person is a horrid example of > humanity/wizardness--therefore they deserve to suffer, deserve whatever > horrid thing that comes their way...." Sound familiar? It should-- it's the > thought process that starts the Holocosts and genocidal wars of this world > (and any other). Once you start down that path, then it becomes easier and > easier each time to excuse the 'removal' of a certain type of person, simply > because they do not follow the same social and moral rules that you > do...Snape, horrid or not, is STILL a human being, and is still a living > creature. Harry is still responsible for what he does to this human > being....and a true hero does NOT repeat the mistakes of his enemies and > oppressors...or he becomes them. Tom Riddle's story is already proof of that > in the books....and Harry is Tom's flip side...."Those that hunt > monsters...." > You misunderstood me. I believe that Harry's desire to hurt Snape will not transform into any evil action against him, that is why it will not lead the boy to Darkness. If Harry will somehow hurt Snape's pride by his positive action (saving his life, for example) - yes, I strongly believe that he is entitled to it. > I don't think it will. What I think it will do is give him 'permission' to > act as judge, jury, and executioner if he is allowed to continue feeding on > his own hurt, hate, pride and self-riteousness. It won't teach Snape a > damned thing to have the tables turned on him--James and company already did > that to him throughout his teen years, and all it did was feed Snape's > hatred. Harry continuing that will only feed Snape's (assumed by us) opinion > that Harry is truly his father's son in this. And all it will do for Harry > is teach him to be a bully like his father was....it certainly won't teach > him that most 'lightside' quality of all--the ability to forgive, even if > the person you're forgiving isn't 'worthy'. To be a bully like his father was? Well, to be called a "bully" towards Snape, I strongly believe that Harry should be the same size as Snape is first of all. Whether it will teach Snape anything or not, I want him to taste his own medicine. He chose from the victim to become a bully. I want him to stop the cycle of hate first, not Harry. Otherwise we must pay for our choices. For the record, I believe that Harry will forgive him at the end. If Harry hurts Severus in the process (not physically, but emotionally, which hurts just the same in my opinion), I will not cry much. To me, that is a true > hero....anyone can dish out the same 'medicine' to another person-- it takes > a much stronger, morally active person to succeed in learning not to give > into that base desire. What you're suggesting is that Harry learns true, > unadulterated hate for another being, and exercise in it....something > Voldemort himself excels in. > Nope, I don't suggest at all for Harry to learn and exercise hate towards another human being, what I am suggesting , that he is entitled to smack Severus a couple of times, that is all. :o) > No, because if he is truly the *hero* of the book, I expect *Heroic* > abilities from him, including being more grown up and mature than his > nemesis, no matter whoo is older than whom. If he is the penultimate > expression of good, courage, and heroism, than I expect more than a bit of > petty revenge for hurt feelings out of him. His father made that > mistake...and look at how it shaped several people's fates.... > OK. See despite the fact that Harry is the hero of the book, I don't expect of him more than I expect of adult. I don't expect him to know better than his adult teacher does. > That's truly, truly harsh and judgemental. People can be cruel and stupid, > blind and horrid...but to expect Death to be the only resolve for them > ignores the chance, no matter how slight, that they may find redemption (a > theme that most of us on the list seem to agree Snape is about to one degree > or another. Whether or not he manages it is an other issue entirely...). And > I find that even more depressing than the 'bad guy' winning in the > end--because then, the 'Lightside' itself has given into the 'Darkside's' > moral values.... OK again. Yes, for some literary characters I expect the redemption can be found in death only. Whether Snape is one of them for sure, I will tell you after book 6 come out. What IS depressing for me is that I expected something to change for better after GoF. I LOVED Snape showing his dark mark to Fudge. I expected him to realise that Harry is NOT James. He saw what this child went through. He knows what burden is on the boy's shoulders. He still does not hcange. Whether you find it harsh and judgemental or not, if we find out that Snape's behaviour towards Harry and other Gryffs was not an act, yes, I believe that the only way he could be truly redeemed is to die in the process of saving Harry. Alla From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 22:56:54 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 22:56:54 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90499 You're kidding, right? Not real people? Where did that come from? Oh oh..... another illusion shattered. Inge Ooh sorry, let me say that in a different way. They don't have motives. JKR has motives for the charactars. Is that better? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 23:02:42 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 23:02:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Ooh sorry, let me say that in a different way. They don't have > motives. JKR has motives for the charactars. Is that better? Eh? There are two ways we can look at the characters and analyse their behaviour - outside the story and within the story. Of course, when I say that 'Snape should know better" for example, I am looking at him as a real person, who does not know that he is in the book about Harry Porter :o). (Was it Pip's analogy?) It does not mean that I don't know who rules the action besides the scenes. :o) Need book 6, right know. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 23:09:57 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 23:09:57 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90501 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: > Clio, > who thinks Harry is too young to be a second Ghandi yet. Can I steal this phrase from you, please, pretty please? Yes, Harry is entirely too young to be thinking about peaceful solutions only. Yep, I think that Harry and Snape are bound to clash very seriously. I think you convinced me that it could be physical violence, which will end up with Harry being disgusted with himself. Again ;o) I do want these two to make peace with each other. Unfortunately, I am less and less sure of such possibility. Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 23:17:41 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 23:17:41 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Lucius (Was Re: Weasleys on the Tapestry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carrilynne" wrote: > This is an interesting thread. I just finished OoP again last > night, and something else came to my attention (if it's discussed > somewhere in these tombs - please forgive me in advance). > > Ron says "... it has about as much chance of happening as my father > has of becoming Minister of Magic". > > So, has anyone thrown out the possibility or likelihood of Arthur > becoming the MoM in one of the next 2 books? > When Ron says something in jest... it usually happens and what a > great slap in the face of the CLASS or PUREBLOOD preference. > > ~Carri I responded to this topic some time ago in one of my many, um, overlooked posts. Essentially I said somehing about not expecting any improvement in Muggle/WW relations at the end of the book (which we would almost certainly see if Arthur became Minister of Magic). Book 7 will be set in a year that is already, for JKR's readers, in the past (1997?). If JKR appointed Mr. Weasley Minister of Magic, she'd have to find a way (other than admitting that the WW doesn't really exist, which she couldn't and wouldn't do)to explain why we Muggles still can't see Hogwarts and still can't enter Diagon Alley, and why wand-carrying wizards aren't openly walking the streets of London. How about a reformed Percy as Minister of Magic in the distant future, when he's about 90? Or more likely, since I fear that poor Percy won't reach 21, much less 90, how about Hermione as Minister of Magic in about the year 2090? She has the right background and could have cultivated the right connections by then, and she's certainly the character most interested in politics. Carol, who thinks that having all of Ron's joking predictions come true is too much of a gimmick, not sufficiently subtle for JKR From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 23:24:19 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 23:24:19 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90503 Sue wrote: > I have been thinking about DD as an animagus a great deal, both as I > read the books and through this thread. It has occured to me that > perhaps DD is something we have not had described to us before. We > all know that DD is a VERY powerful wizard, why then would such a > powerful wizard be limited to becoming but 1 other thing? perhaps > Dumbldore is capable of becoming anything he wants, whenever he > wants. He would not have to register as he is not specifically an > animagus (although I believe if Hermione found him on the list and > was asked to keep it quiet she would) and he would be able to be > anywhere without people knowing he was there. > > Oh say...a spider in a cupboard under the stairs perhaps? > > Wondering about Dumbledore and who the other metamorphmagus is going > to be... > Sue From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 23:35:20 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 23:35:20 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > > If Dumbledore is, indeed, an animagus, he must certainly have > become so well before middle-age. > > Sylvia (who feels we have way too many animagi floating around > > already) > > I have been thinking about DD as an animagus a great deal, both as I > read the books and through this thread. It has occured to me that > perhaps DD is something we have not had described to us before. We > all know that DD is a VERY powerful wizard, why then would such a > powerful wizard be limited to becoming but 1 other thing? perhaps > Dumbldore is capable of becoming anything he wants, whenever he > wants. He would not have to register as he is not specifically an > animagus (although I believe if Hermione found him on the list and > was asked to keep it quiet she would) and he would be able to be > anywhere without people knowing he was there. > > Oh say...a spider in a cupboard under the stairs perhaps? > > Wondering about Dumbledore and who the other metamorphmagus is going > to be... > Sue I think you're onto something here. If DD is a metamorphmagus, he could turn into a wasp or anything he wanted to because he would have been born that way. (Maybe he could even turn himself into a potted plant, as Hannah Abbott suggested tha Sirius Black could do in PoA). Whether that would also enable him to become completely invisible without an Invisibility Cloak, I don't know, but he's indicated that he has that ability. We've seen only one metamorphmagus (or should that be metamorphmaga, since she's female?) so far, and way too many animagi for the idea of DD as animagus to appeal to me. Certainly JKR needs to show that he's different from, and more powerful than, any other "fully qualified" wizard (though maybe not as Gandalf-like as he appeared at the end of OoP), and being a metamorphagus would partially fit the bill--as long as he made more interesting use of the ability than Tonks has so far. Personally, I think she must have been used primarily to get us used to the concept of metamorphmagism (I'm guessing at the noun form here), which will undoubtedly play a larger role later in the series, just as the polyjuice potion in CoS prepared us for the transformation of Barty Crouch, Jr., two books later. Carol From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sun Feb 8 23:53:52 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:53:52 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's revenge on Snape? References: Message-ID: <005601c3ee9e$ce6d0300$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90505 {Alla} You misunderstood me. I believe that Harry's desire to hurt Snape will not transform into any evil action against him, that is why it will not lead the boy to Darkness. If Harry will somehow hurt Snape's pride by his positive action (saving his life, for example) - yes, I strongly believe that he is entitled to it. {Anne} Ah, thank you for clarifying...it sounded like you DID want Harry to take like action against Snape in earlier posts....and yes, that would open the door for more negative steps for our hero to take if he does. {Alla} To be a bully like his father was? Well, to be called a "bully" towards Snape, I strongly believe that Harry should be the same size as Snape is first of all. {Anne} hmmmmmmm....okay, then let's try 'judgemental', shall we?--or self-riteous.... "Well," said James, appearing to deliberate the point, "It's more the fact that he *exists*, if you know what I mean..." Clear case of judgement there....goes right along with Harry's idea that Sirius's death is all Snapes fault, and he will never forgive him for it. {Alla} Whether it will teach Snape anything or not, I want him to taste his own medicine. {Anne} And would that make it 'right'? IMHO, no it would not. If you expect the 'villains' to redeem themselves by changing thier moral tune, then you might want to wonder why you would expect other people to go down to the level you expect those villains to crawl out of in order to be redemable...and that is the crux of my point. Lowering yourself to their level does no good for anyone. Dumbledore tries to halt it whenever one of the characters start in on another...Remus Lupin constantly tries to explain 'the other person's point of view' when Harry starts railing about how unfair Snape (or even his own father) had been--reminding him that he shouldn't get angry...it is a constant theme underlying what most of the calmer, saner aduts of the book present when the question of "why SHOULDN'T we do the same thing back, why SHOULDN't this person suffer too?". And to ignore that is to ignore that very point. {Alla} He chose from the victim to become a bully. I want him to stop the cycle of hate first, not Harry. Otherwise we must pay for our choices. {Anne} Uh....clarify the last part of that sentence? I agree that Snape must learn from his own mistakes...but treating him to the same hell he gives others won't work. He already had that as a child--through what his own father, and then James and the others, did to him. What he is doing now is repeating that same pattern on other people he himself suffered through (A typcial pattern of abuse, if you want to go that route). He doesn't need anymore 'lessons'...he needs someone to drag him OUT of the cycle.... {Alla} For the record, I believe that Harry will forgive him at the end. If Harry hurts Severus in the process (not physically, but emotionally, which hurts just the same in my opinion), I will not cry much. {Anne} And here is where you and I differ vastly. Repeating the same mistake on Severus that he makes with others is a crime unto itself. It will not heal him...it will not help him. It will only shove him further into the Darkness he's tried to crawl out of. And since Dumbly has allowed him back into the fold, I have to say that that means, at least for now, Snape DOES have the chance to be redeemed...but it won't be by passing judgement on him....or getting 'revenge'. {Alla} Nope, I don't suggest at all for Harry to learn and exercise hate towards another human being, what I am suggesting , that he is entitled to smack Severus a couple of times, that is all. :o) {Anne{ That IS hate....and that is what he has for Snape right now.... {Alla} OK. See despite the fact that Harry is the hero of the book, I don't expect of him more than I expect of adult. I don't expect him to know better than his adult teacher does. {Anne} Why not? Isn't that part of the point of the story...for Harry to be 'better' than his enemies? To learn to not wallow in the same hate and violence than they do? No? Than what, exactly, makes him a 'good guy'? The people he choses to hate and fight over the people he doesn't? Although there are some absolute morals and values in this world, what truly makes people 'better' is thier ability to get beyond thier own petty hurts and see clearly... {Alla} OK again. Yes, for some literary characters I expect the redemption can be found in death only. Whether Snape is one of them for sure, I will tell you after book 6 come out. {Anne} Or book seven, which is when Rolwing has told us all to 'look out for Snape'... {Alla} What IS depressing for me is that I expected something to change for better after GoF. I LOVED Snape showing his dark mark to Fudge. I expected him to realise that Harry is NOT James. He saw what this child went through. He knows what burden is on the boy's shoulders. He still does not hcange. {Anne} No, he doesn't seem to make a BIG change...but...he DID listen to Harry in Umbridge's office, even though it didn't seem like it at the time...he DID do his best to get Dumbly and the others to the MOM ASAP...and he DID tell Sirius not to go...although, considering the damage those two had done to each other, it's no surprise Sirius did not take him...seriously....the point is, he did do some positive things in the book. He believed Harry...he listened....and he tried, snarky as he is...to do the right thing with that information. But neither he nor the Order are Gods...and so, Sirius lost his life in the process... {Alla} Whether you find it harsh and judgemental or not, if we find out that Snape's behaviour towards Harry and other Gryffs was not an act, yes, I believe that the only way he could be truly redeemed is to die in the process of saving Harry {Anne{ *Shrugs* And I beleive the human spirit, even in Snape's case, is far stringer and complex than that.... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 23:56:04 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 23:56:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Animagi and animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90506 Sylvia wrote: Thanks, Carol, for bringing up the subject of Snape's patronus and/or boggart. I have been wondering about this myself and came to the same conclusion that the boggart might be LV red in tooth and claw - as good a reason for not giving Snape the DADA job as any - but I haven't formed any definite idea about the patronus. Not a snake, surely. Anyone got any less conventional ideas? Neri now: Shouldn't Snape's patronus be a really large bat? Just kidding. I don't really believe that vampire thing. And in order to execute the patronus you need a happy memory. What would that be for Snape? Kat: > Arrggh unfortunatly I can't find the start of this thread "much fake sobbing"-sniff, sniff-anyone have a fake tissue? Carol: Here's the post where I asked the question about Snape's boggart and patronus that Sylvia was responding to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90405 Carol, who enjoyed your thoughts on why Snape's patronus might well be a snake (Snape/snake?) without any implication that he's evil. The implication could well be powerfully magical and subtle, both of which he certainly is. Since (despite his loyalty to DD and enmity toward LV and the DEs) he's the quintessential Slytherin in many respects, a snake patronus would be fitting--but IMO it would be strange to see a snake attacking Dementors. (How convenient that he was out cold when the Dementors showed up in PoA so JKR didn't have to reveal his Patronus. If Harry had seen Snape cast a snake Patronus, he and Ron would certainly have interpreted it as yet more evidence that Snape is an "evil git.") Just some inclusive thoughts on the subject of my favorite character. Carol From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 00:45:20 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 00:45:20 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90507 We've seen only one metamorphmagus (or should that be metamorphmaga, > since she's female?) so far, and way too many animagi for the idea of > DD as animagus to appeal to me. Certainly JKR needs to show that he's > different from, and more powerful than, any other "fully qualified" > wizard (though maybe not as Gandalf-like as he appeared at the end of > OoP), and being a metamorphagus would partially fit the bill--as long > as he made more interesting use of the ability than Tonks has so far. > Personally, I think she must have been used primarily to get us used > to the concept of metamorphmagism (I'm guessing at the noun form > here), which will undoubtedly play a larger role later in the series, > just as the polyjuice potion in CoS prepared us for the transformation > of Barty Crouch, Jr., two books later. > > Carol Sue: Yeah! Thanks for the response! I agree with what you had to say about Tonks, she is the first act. We have not seen what someone with those capabilities and 150 of life experience can do. For that matter we haven't seen what Tonks can do if she needs to. I do like the idea that Harry has more to work with than we yet know as well. So maybe... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 00:52:32 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 00:52:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90508 Clio wrote: In the MoM, after Bellatrix Lestrange has killed Sirius, Harry duels with her. > It is a bit reassuring here that Harry, although he wants to cast an Unforgivable, is unable to do so efficiently, because he doesn't feel enough hate in him. He doesn't enjoy the pain of it victim enough. > Now, I was wondering what would happen if the target of Harrys spell was a different person, one he really hates. Snape. In Dumbledore's office, Harry blames Snape for Sirius death. And here, for the first time, we see Harry connecting joy and hate. > "Harry disregarded this; he felt a savage pleasure in blaming Snape, it seemed to be easing his own sense of dreadful guilt, and he wanted to hear Dumbledore agree with him." Some scenes later, Harrys newfound hatred of Snape is reinforced. It is not the 'rightous anger' Bellatrix says Harry uses in his meek Crucio. "Snape had emerged from the staircase leading to his office and at the sight of him Harry felt a great rush of hatred beyond anything he felt towards Malfoy ... whatever Dumbledore said, he would never forgive Snape ... never ..." I wonder what would happen if Harry met Snape alone, if Snape provoked him, maybe. Would he really try to harm him physically? In book 4 this seems to be foreshadowed. Harry more than once fantasizes of hurting Snape. Well, I think this is a bit startling. Would Harry really, now that he knows the Crucio curse and has in his mind a good reason to hate Snape, go so far as to hurt him? And enjoy it? In those examples from GoF Snape has only insulted Harry with words and it triggers such violent fantasies in him. What will happen now, that Harry thinks Snape is responsible for Sirius death? There is no denying that he is a bit unhinged. Would Harry expose Snape as a spy or challenge him to a duel maybe? Any thoughts? > > Clio, > who thinks AngryTeenager!Harry and curses might prove to be a > explosive combination Carol: I've left large portions of this excellent post unsnipped because it provides important background for my own response. First, I'm not sure that Harry's hatred for Snape is as deep as it appears. Much of it is a child's or teenager's resentment of an overly strict authority figure. Snape is a convenient scapegoat, a target for all the anger bottled up in Harry which can't be directed at the real enemy, Voldemort. Smashing beetles that he imagines as having Snape's face is a convenient and relatively harmless way of letting off steam. Also Harry knows that he owes a few debts to Snape and that Dumbledore trusts Snape implicitly. I don't think that Harry, now that he's come to terms with Dumbledore after resenting him through a whole 700-page book, will continue to blame a man he knows to be Dumbledore's ally and agent for killing Sirius. As one of your quotations indicates, Harry's "savage pleasure" in blaming Snape is really a way of lessening his own feelings of guilt, at least for that moment. As you say, his failure to cast an effective Cruciatus curse is reassuring. So, to me, is the change in him at the end of OoP. He was feeling friendless and alone--no one could understand his misery over Sirius's death or share the burden of having to kill LV or be killed by him , etc., etc.--but once he sees how many people are really behind him and that he's not alone after all, his attitude changes. As someone else pointed out in another thread, he actually leads Uncle Vernon to the car, not the other way around--surely a hopeful sign that he's on his way to recovery. I think (hope) that we'll see less adolescent angst and rebellion in Book 6, with Harry trusting his friends and DD more and understanding that some of the anger he feels may not be his own. If so, though he probably won't admit to himself that he's blamed Snape unfairly, he'll probably arrive at a more realistic perspective of the events leading to Sirius's death. Even if he won't admit that he owes his life to Snape, he should surely acknowledge that it was Snape who sent the Order to rescue him and that Snape tried to prevent Sirius from going to the MoM. Maybe he'll redirect his anger toward Bellatrix, or at least tone down his resentment of Snape, understanding the difference between whispered sarcasm in Potions class and Unforgiveable Curses hurled at him and his friends in the MoM. I'm pretty sure that "he would never forgive Snape. Never!" is yet another example of narration from Harry's POV that will turn out not to be true. IMO, it illustrates the kind of intense but short-lived anger that everyone, and particularly a teenager under a lot of stress, sometimes feels. I also hope that the momentary understanding of Snape's perspective that Harry felt after witnessing Snape's humiliation in the Pensieve will return to him at some point. I think *that* Harry was much closer to the essential Harry than the angry, resentful prisoner of his emotions that we saw throughout most of OoP. He couldn't bring himself to kill the "murderin' traitor" Sirius (to quote Hagrid) or allow Sirius and Remus to kill Peter in PoA; he couldn't cast an effective Cruciatus on Bellatrix in OoP, yet he had much stronger grounds for hating those people (or thought he did) than he has for hating Snape. And Snape is anything but defenseless; I don't think Harry could catch him unawares even if he dared to try. Not to mention that Harry himself knows the consequences of casting a spell on a teacher. (If Snape had really wanted to have him expelled, he could have done so after HRH stunned him in the Shrieking Shack.) Harry's not going to go to Azkaban for Crucioing Snape, or even allow himself to be expelled for hexing him with a jelly legs curse. I do wonder how Harry is going to destroy Voldemort without resorting to murder (his only alternative from his current perspective), but I don't think he's going to ready himself for the final battle by practicing Unforgiveable Curses on his least favorite teacher. Carol From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 00:58:03 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 00:58:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: <005601c3ee9e$ce6d0300$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90509 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: > {Alla} > > For the record, I believe that Harry will forgive him at the end. If Harry > hurts Severus in the process (not physically, but emotionally, which hurts > just the same in my opinion), I will not cry much. > > {Anne} > > And here is where you and I differ vastly. Repeating the same mistake on > Severus that he makes with others is a crime unto itself. It will not heal > him...it will not help him. It will only shove him further into the Darkness > he's tried to crawl out of. And since Dumbly has allowed him back into the > fold, I have to say that that means, at least for now, Snape DOES have the > chance to be redeemed...but it won't be by passing judgement on him....or > getting 'revenge'. I would like to emphasize that Harry is my absolute favourite character in the books. So, first and foremost I care about what will help HIM, not Snape: what will heal HARRY, not Snape. Again I can't help but think that this is very strange reaction for me. :o) and I guess part of JKR genuis. :o) Usually, I care about "grey" characters much more than I care about Heroes themselves in the similar genre. I have to think whether the fact that Harry is an orphaned child is the main reason that I want hug him and make it all better? :o) Yes, yes, I know that we are not talking about real people here. :o) Now, Snape is third on my list of favourites, but if Harry gets to vent some of his frustration at him, I would only welcome such scene in the books. > That IS hate....and that is what he has for Snape right now.... I guess we are talking about degrees here. > > Why not? Isn't that part of the point of the story...for Harry to be > 'better' than his enemies? Because that although I don't want the books to mirror the reality completely, I want the emotions and human relationships resemble the reality close enough. I believe that it is INCREDIBLY UNFAIR to expect that Harry will be better than Snape at 15. It is just does not happen in reality and I don't want it to be otherwise. At least when he finally graduates and defeates Voldy. :o0 Although > there are some absolute morals and values in this world, what truly makes > people 'better' is thier ability to get beyond thier own petty hurts and see > clearly... > Yes, but sometimes it is unrealistic, right? Snape still is not over his. > Or book seven, which is when Rolwing has told us all to 'look out for > Snape'... > Yes. > Alla From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 01:10:16 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 01:10:16 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Animagi and animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90510 Big snip Since (despite his loyalty to DD and enmity toward LV > and the DEs) he's the quintessential Slytherin in many respects, a > snake patronus would be fitting--but IMO it would be strange to see a > snake attacking Dementors. (How convenient that he was out cold when > the Dementors showed up in PoA so JKR didn't have to reveal his > Patronus. If Harry had seen Snape cast a snake Patronus, he and Ron > would certainly have interpreted it as yet more evidence that Snape is > an "evil git.") > > Just some inclusive thoughts on the subject of my favorite character. > > Carol I think it is also compelling that we do not know Lupin's Patronus. There were many opportunities for us to be shown exactly what it is. In the Hogwart's Express, Harry is unconcious and afterward Hermione told him that Lupin shot a "silvery thing" out of the end of his wand. Although I am not necessarily of the opinion that Remus=James, I am sure that Lupin is a powerful enough wizard to create a "corporeal" Patronus. We all know by now that JKR doesn't keep secrets if it is not important. As for Snape, the snake Patronus is a great visual (it was, of course, Snape who told Malfoy how to conjure a snake in CoS). I rather like the idea of Snape's Patronus being something soft and cuddly. Since the wizard does not have control over what form their Patronus takes, it would be a fascinating twist if an important reflection of Snapes inner life turned out to be a big shaggy dog. Sue, who would desperately like to know Snape's "story". From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 01:21:28 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 01:21:28 -0000 Subject: No mystery guest in OOP? In-Reply-To: <74.3816288e.2d57d243@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90511 > Cassie: > > Hmm...maybe. However, unlike the other characters in the books who revealed > themselves to be evil at the end, Umbridge was 'evil' throughout. The others > tried to help Harry and really did fool him. I can imagine Harry being shocked > she did this, but not shocked that she was the one who did it (especially > after the terrible things she's done and what a terrible woman she is) > > Maybe that's my criteria. Good characters that WE would have never expected > to be the villian. Carol: Maybe JKR felt that's she'd used that plot device so often that we'd solve the mystery halfway through the book if she used it again. Possibly she wants to take the books in a new direction now, with new kinds of surprises in each one. In this case, the big revelation--or big shock if she hadn't prepared us for it--would have been the death of Sirius, which would have made any revelation of a seemingly good bad guy anticlimactic. Carol From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 01:55:32 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 01:55:32 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble (longer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90513 CRobo wrote: > Very interesting. I bought my daughter the "Chamber of Secrets" > computer game for Christmas. In it, one of the spells is > "MimbleWimble or Stuttering Charm > "Causes your opponent to mess up his or her next spell." > > JKR was involved in some portions of the development of this game > according to the credits. This implies to me that Vernon might have > a bit more WW knowledge than I realized. And if he really did utter > a charm, and it was effective (Hagrid's attempt to turn Dudley into > a pig only succeeded in Dudley gaining a tail), then is Vernon > capable of magic? Yikes! > Neri now: This thread have become intriguing and I'm really sorry to squash it, but here is a bit from JKR's interview I just came across while looking for something else: America Online, October 19, 2000, Chat Transcript http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-aol-chat.htm "Q: Does everyone have a little magic in them? Even if they are Muggles? And if not, how did magic start? JKR answers: I think we do (outside the books), but within my books -- do you really think there's any magic in Uncle Vernon? Magic is one of those odd talents which some have and some don't." JKR doesn't lie in her interviews (that I know of) and here she brought up Vernon herself. On the other hand, she did not specifically said "Uncle Vernon doesn't have magic in him", but "do you really think there's any magic in Uncle Vernon?". So all of you Uncle Vernon's fans, there is still hope 8-) Neri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 02:28:07 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 02:28:07 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90514 This is a repost with errors corrected. My apologies to anyone who has read the first version already and wondered what kind of idiot can see the obviously nominative "draco" and think it's in the genitive form ("draconis"). A tired idiot? :-0 "armadillof" wrote: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus can be interpreted as a 'rough' latin. (Few exceptions such as nunquam=numquam; slight spelling modifications et al). I interpret it generally as meaning "the snake never sleep peacefully". draco=snake nunquam=never dormiens=sleep titillandus=peacefully Wouldn't "snake" be "serpens"? We have all sorts of references to snakes in the HP books, most of them in some way associated with Salazar Skytherin, from the basilisk and the carved snakes in the Chamber of Secrets to LV (the Heir of Slytherin) speaking Parseltongue and keeping Nagini as a pet--not to mention the Slytherin coat of arms and the Dark Mark (which is too much like the statue in the CoS to be coincidence. I think that if JKR meant the motto to be associated with these omnipresent snake motifs, she would have used a more unambiguous noun for "snake." I also suspect that"draco" suggests "dragon" rather than "snake" to most readers who have some acquaintance with Latin. It also, of course, suggests Draco Malfoy, who as I said in another post, is almost certainly named after the constellation Draco, which is always translated "dragon," not "snake." As I said, I don't think that the sleeping dragon is Draco. I'm only mentioning his name with regard to the translation. As to who or what the sleeping dragon might be, I rather suspect that it's Hogwarts, as someone in this thread suggested. In any case, I don't think it has anything to do with the serpent/Slytherin motif, as all the serpents (the basilisk, Nagini, the carved serpents, and those in the Dark Mark) are already either awake or dead, as are the serpent-associated people (Salazar Slytherin, the Blacks, LV, and Harry). Not one of these serpents is sleeping or even dormant. (LV, however powerless in his "vapor" form, has been wide awake throughout the series.) The question for me now is, who or what in the book is large and dangerous, but not yet roused to action. It could be Hogwarts, as I mentioned above, or it could be the as yet untapped power of the WW itself. Carol, who hopes she's fixed all her errors (except "inclusive" for "inconclusive" in another post) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 02:33:29 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 02:33:29 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90515 This is another repost removing the "draconis" error. Forgive me if you've read the original already. Kagome: Draco: name of a star in a constellation (yes, it's true, even though I don't remember the constellation) Carol: It's both a star and the constellation that incorporates the star. Here's a nice site showing what it looks like: http://www.crystalinks.com/draco.html Interestingly, Rastaban, which is very close to the name of one of the Lestrange brothers (Rabastan), is also a star in the constellation Draco. There are quite a few sites on the Net explaining the mythology behind the constellation, if anyone want to try to link it with HP. Here are two of them: http://www.emufarm.org/~cmbell/myth/draco.html http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/constellations/draco.html The second URL does link dragon and serpent imagery, but I still think the two are distinct in the HP series, if not necessarily in all myths and mythologies. Incidentally, Tolkien's dragons include "a great cold drake" (cf. draco) and "Scatha the Worm (= Snake), so he does make the association between snakes or serpents and dragons, but I have yet to see it in HP. Even if Wormtail is somehow associated with snakes instead of segmented earthworms (cf. Wormtongue = Snake Tongue in LOTR), I don't see a connection between Wormtail and dragons. In GoF JKR describes the Horntail (IIRC) as "more lizardlike than the others," but none of the dragons is referred to as snakelike. Carol, who still can't find the motto in her American editions From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com Sun Feb 8 23:50:55 2004 From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (Sarah) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:50:55 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD an animagus? References: Message-ID: <004701c3ee9e$64eddee0$0600a8c0@HOMESARAH> No: HPFGUIDX 90516 Carol: > I think you're onto something here. If DD is a metamorphmagus, he > could turn into a wasp or anything he wanted to because he would have > been born that way. (Maybe he could even turn himself into a potted > plant, as Hannah Abbott suggested tha Sirius Black could do in PoA). Sarah (me): I don't see this pointed out too often, but when Harry enters the Mirror of Erised room, there is an upturned wastepaper basket on the floor. It seems an odd detail to include for "atmosphere," and I've often wondered if something could be underneath the basket. It does seem like it would be hard to see out of, though. Maybe the basket itself is not what it seems. Sarah From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 9 03:47:21 2004 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 03:47:21 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Incidentally, Tolkien's dragons include "a great cold drake" (cf. > draco) and "Scatha the Worm (= Snake), so he does make the association > between snakes or serpents and dragons, but I have yet to see it in > HP. Even if Wormtail is somehow associated with snakes instead of > segmented earthworms (cf. Wormtongue = Snake Tongue in LOTR), I don't > see a connection between Wormtail and dragons. In GoF JKR describes > the Horntail (IIRC) as "more lizardlike than the others," but none of > the dragons is referred to as snakelike. There are a lot of different dragon species in mythology (which has spread to lots of roleplaying systems). Not all dragons have wings, and not all of them breathe fire. And it isn't always clear, for instance in the Greek myths, whether "serpent" refers to an ordinary snake or a kind of dragon. As I understand it, a dragon proper has wings and at least four legs, while serpents and wyrms are earthbound (the Germanic dragons were almost always flightless, for instance). The dragons in the first task all had wings, IIRC, and the other ones mentioned in Fantastic Beasts as well. Among all of Tolkien's dragons, Glaurung has to be the foremost. It was a while since I read the Silmarillion, so I can't remember if he breathed fire or just was venomous and able to hypnotise his victims. From ktd7 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 05:12:20 2004 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 05:12:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Clio wrote: > In the MoM, after Bellatrix Lestrange has killed Sirius, Harry > duels with her. > > > > > I do wonder how Harry is going to destroy Voldemort without resorting > to murder (his only alternative from his current perspective), but I > don't think he's going to ready himself for the final battle by > practicing Unforgiveable Curses on his least favorite teacher. > > Carol Karen: Is it really murder to defend oneself against an attack? Or is it murder when both people are involved in a battle? I think that one of the reasons for Harry's anger in OOP is to set up the anger he will have to channel against Voldemort. I expect in the 6th book we will see Harry working hard to prepare himself against a coming battle. His pain at losing Sirius will be refocused on Voldemort. He will still be angry with Snape, but somewhere along the line, they will have to come to terms. My expectation is that he will still be consumed with anger, but Voldemort (and by extension, Bellatrix) will be his target. Harry's suspicions of Snape may keep him misdirected, but eventually, he will understand Dumbledore's confidence in Snape. Karen From catlady at wicca.net Mon Feb 9 06:02:14 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 06:02:14 -0000 Subject: Malfoy pets / age in First Year / the Dark Mark Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90519 Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90123 : << BTW, has anyone noticed that Draco Malfoy and his cronies don't seem to have pets (er, familiars)? >> Draco, Vincent, and Gregory don't seem to have pets, but Millicent Bulstrode is in their House and their year and has a black cat. My own theory on Draco not having any pets is that the purpose of pets is to be loved and Lucius is far from wanting to teach Draco to love ... I absolutely believe a small fanfic written by one of my friends, in which little Draco had a pony, and when he was old enough to move up to a real horse, his father required him to prove that he was grown-up enough for a horse by killing his beloved pony ... Geoff wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90209 : << To summarise, a pupil entering the First Year should have reached eleven no later than 31st August of that year so, during their First Year, they will become 12, so that when they enter the Second Year, they are already 12... and so on hence pupils coming into the Lower Sixth are 16 - which fits quite correctly with Angelina who is 17 in the October of the First Year Sixth. >> Speaking from hearsay, the timeline on the CoS DVD says that Hermione was born September 19, 1980 (not 1979). So Hogwarts's cut-off date cannot be Aug 31 as in the Real World you described. I suspect it is Autumn Equinox (which seems to have been Sept 22 in 1980, from quick Web search). Severely Sigune wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90315 : << do other posters think that the Dark Mark is more than just Voldie's version of a beeper? >> Someone theorized that the Dark Mark links the person's life to LV's life so they they'll die when/if LV does. That would be how LV could tell the Death Eaters in the Graveyard Scene in GoF that he knew with absolute certainty that they had known he was alive: if he weren't, they wouldn't have been either. This adds to Sevvie's burden, that if he succeeds in his goal of destroying LV, he also will die. If this is the case, the Death Eater *must* get some benefit from the Dark Mark, or only Bellatrix would have been fanatic enough to accept it ... perhaps it gives the Death Eater an extra boost of magical power? From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Mon Feb 9 07:00:31 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 01:00:31 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's revenge on Snape? References: Message-ID: <007101c3eeda$68b9e3c0$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90520 {Alla} I would like to emphasize that Harry is my absolute favourite character in the books. So, first and foremost I care about what will help HIM, not Snape: what will heal HARRY, not Snape. Again I can't help but think that this is very strange reaction for me. :o) and I guess part of JKR genuis. :o) {Anne} Your 'favorite' is indeed obvious in the way you defend him to the exclusion of all others, including his number one protector, Dumbledore. No arguement there, and no condemnation either, but considering what you hint at in your own belief system, I am not surprised either. It is obvious you empathize completely with him. That's not a bad thing...but there is such a thing as over-empathizing...^^; {Alla} I have to think whether the fact that Harry is an orphaned child is the main reason that I want hug him and make it all better? :o) {Anne} Very likely, especially if you can find parallels in your own life to compare his situation to, which is often how people find thier favorite character to empathize with within any story. I actaully do empathize with Harry, but I empathize with Snape more (after the events of book 4, BTW, once we got a little more info on him than just "Bullying Professor") because his childhood seems to have mirrored mine in many ways. From what little we the audience think we know-- Snape has an abusive parent, was not well liked by his peers for whatever reason (yes yes, I know, he was 'up to his ears in the Dark Arts'. Ever wonder why he felt it necassary to learn them in the first place? No? Maybe you should--it would explain a lot I'm sure--and not just 'well, he's just bad'). Snape was hounded by the 'popular' (and bullying) kids at school, simply because 'he exists', and so forth. And yes, I had ALL of that in my childhood--and I was the 'quiet mouse in the corner', unlike Snape. I was just the convienient target because I was oddball out, and my mother had a BAD rep around town...therefore, I was fair game...(Incidently, 'fair game' included things like having fist-sized rocks thrown at me once they had me cornered....^^;). So yes, I do empathize with the old Snark...I see a flip side to myself that could have been...just as I see what Harry is going through, and know the danger he's playing at by wallowing in self-pity and misplaced blame---there was a time I stood at that juncture of life myself, and had to make the decision... Snape appearently had a very lonely, unhappy life that did not change once he got to Hogwarts, unlike, say, Pettigrew, who James and Sirius let him follow them around like a pitiful stray (Why Pettigrew the psychophant, who repaid them later with betrayal, instead of Severus...who at least might have stood on equal ground with them? Or perhaps that was the very reason why not--he didn't want a subservient role in James' little gang, didn't want to be the one his 'friends' laughed at...)...also UNLIKE with Harry, who suddenly gained real friends, an adoptive family, a fatherly type to guide him (More than one if you include Lupin, Sirius, even the 'real' Moody to some degree), --in short, Harry got an entire support structure to fall back on. And he was young enough at the time to learn from that and escape the sour, bitter way of looking at things that Snape did not manage in his own youth... Like Harry, the difference for me is that I had someone to drag me out of hating the world while I was still young enough to learn that life, and people, did NOT have to be 'that way'. By the same token, I was old enough to realize what I had escaped, both in regards to my situation, and what I could have become if I had stayed with my mother. So, I feel far more sorry for Snape than I ever will for Harry, even though Snape 'grew up' to be a hateful adult. Quite frankly, of the two, he got the shorter end of the stick, and still is getting it. I would be disagreable too in that situation... Again, to make it clear, it's not a bad thing to empathize with Harry (and yes, I do empathize with him. But I also expect him to 'get better' and find a way not to become what he hates seeing in Snape (Hatred, blaming others, projected pain, etc))... By the same token, all of the characters, even though they may not be the main character, have a lot of interesting, and valid, things about them that deserve to be explored (and respected), even if it's only through Harry's limited eyes. I have never been satisfied with empathizing with 'just' the hero--no matter how down trodden, lost, or beat up he may feel or truly be. The author almost always 'rescues' his/her creation from whatever dreadful fate the hero might otherwise suffer--and I expect Harry's fate will be no different in Rowling's capable hands, no matter what trails and tribulations she chooses to put him through before the end of the series (especially if she does not want to be lynch-mobbed by her fans for killing/destroying/making-him-evil Harry). So I do indeed tend to find as much interest, if not more, in the people around the main hero. Without them, he will have nothing to strive for, nothing to learn, nothing that will make him grow beyond his current self, and there certainly will be no comparison between said hero and the world around him. In short, the story becomes a monologue...with a very one-sided POV of everything that's going on. To me, the hero is boring without something to measure him by, and compare him to. I don't need to be told he'll probably make it out the other end, bruised and scarred, maybe, but still the hero. He usually does. But what about the people around him? What do they learn, what do they gain, or loose? They live in that world too...and they are just as interesting and deserving of some sort of respect as the hero is. {Alla} Yes, yes, I know that we are not talking about real people here. :o) Now, Snape is third on my list of favourites, but if Harry gets to vent some of his frustration at him, I would only welcome such scene in the books. {Anne} I wouldn't---Voldy and his group are enough in terms of hatred and 'venting' at people, I think, without the hero and allies resorting to the same treatement of each other (I completely lost my liking for Sirius after the Pensieve scene--and he was my favorite until then--especially after realizing that he STILL insisted on acting the same towards Snape in the present time. Snape was not the only one who needed to 'grow up' in that book...and being a 'good guy', I would have expected it from Sirius much sooner than from Snape--especially since he took such great pride in 'being above' Snape in nature and principles. My reaction to that is "Put your money where your mouth is, please...", and Sirius failed miserably.). Rowling has already made it quite clear what happens when friends and allies start in on each other--people suffer and/or die as a result. Horribly, tragically, and usually senselessly (except maybe in terms of helping the plot along). It may give some readers a sense of vindictive riteousness to see Snape 'get his own' from Harry, but to me, that would lower Harry in my eyes forever, and leave a very bad taste in my mouth. Taking Severus down a peg or ten isn't necassary...he's likely to pay in some horrible way for his past crimes without Harry's help before the end of the series. I don't expect Harry to be Ghandhi, but I do expect him to eventually get rid of the idea that he needs to 'hate' and 'judge' others, especially just to make himself feel better about something that happened. He's fifteen going on sixteen now--he's getting old enough to learn that lesson...he's not an 'innocent' anymore, and hasn't been for a long time....not with the life he's had so far. {Alla} I guess we are talking about degrees here. {Anne} *Raises eyebrow as she thinks about an earlier coversation* Perhaps we are...^^; {Alla} Because that although I don't want the books to mirror the reality completely, I want the emotions and human relationships resemble the reality close enough. I believe that it is INCREDIBLY UNFAIR to expect that Harry will be better than Snape at 15. It is just does not happen in reality and I don't want it to be otherwise. {Anne} Actaully, yes it does happen, and no it isn't unfair to expect it from a fifteen, soon to be sixteen, year old boy---that's when I started dragging myself out of behaiving/thinking/feeling as badly as the people who had hurt me. I started taking responsibilty for myself and my actions and quit blaming other people for them, or expecting retribution for whatever percieved hurts I had suffered at their hands. I am neither a 'hero', nor as 'talented', 'smart', or 'powerful' as Harry is made out to be. I was a 'normal', if emotionally scarred, teenager (just like Harry)....and quite frankly, if I could manage it in my teen years, 'messed up' as I was by my own experinces with abuse...then a hero in a book should be able to...he is, after all, by his very nature, 'better' than me... I do think it unfair to NOT expect him to aim for higher ideals...especially when they are likely to shape not only his future, but the WW's, by his actions (Which will be governed by his ideals--just like any person's are). I don't expect him to 'get it' suddenly, any more than I would expect Snape to suddenly change *his* tune over night...but I DO expect Harry to essentially, 'get over it' at some point and concentrate on higher goals. He can't wallow in self-pity forever--and he only has two years (books) left to quit wallowing before his story is done if Rowling holds to her promise... Also, Harry, like any hero of a story, is an ideal that young readers will look to for ages to come, since he is the 'good guy' fighting against the 'bad guys'. If he CAN'T get over it, then real, live kids who identify with him will think it is indeed okay to be vengeful and vindictive towards others, that its okay to hold onto hate even though all it does is poison what you will see, do, and hear from and to others--a nasty cycle that will only perpetuate itself. Don't we have enough of that mind set in entertainment (Not to mention reality) already? {Alla} Yes, but sometimes it is unrealistic, right? Snape still is not over his. {Anne} No, he isn't over it--you are correct in that. By the same token however, he never had what Harry has in regards to people who love and care about him, as far as we can tell...he has a lot more to dig out of emotionally than Harry, even when including the whole "The Boy who Lived/The Boy of the Prophecy" thing...Harry has people to hold his hand and keep him sane and on 'the Right Path' if he bothers to listen to them and learn....but I don't see the same support structure being set up for Snape at any time, past, present, or future. So, where did Snape learn to 'get over it' then?...when did he have the chance to? Even grown-ups need outside help in order to get over whatever hurts they harbor, sometimes even more so than children, because they've lived with the scars so much longer. At least Harry HAS that support to fall back on already...and it doesnt look like it will go away any time soon...not unless Voldy manages to kill everyone BUT Harry (not likely)...Harry will never be alone...even when he thinks he is. All he'll have to do is be reminded of that fact...and accept it when he is reminded. Harry is the hero of the series--I never had doubts in regard to that, just as I will never doubt that he will remain so through-out all of them. By the same token, I believe our young hero has a LOT more growing, and growing up, to do, and that is actually one of the main themes of the books--learning to grow and grow up. Learning to become the best person you can become...and to avoid becoming like those people that are not at thier best. I believe Rowling will continue to put him through hell as it were, and make him, and the readers through him, confront, in some way, all of these issues--whether by taking his control away from him in some manner and making him act 'on the other side' for a time...or by him finally getting his own mind, heart and soul straightened out and realizing that he doesn't want to repeat the same mistakes his father, Sirius, Snape or any other adult has made that has screwed up so much. Or perhaps both. No, Rowling will not let our hero fall.. of that I am certain...but I do suspect she will let him dangle over that edge for a bit. That is, after all, a part of growing...learning..and becoming both an adult AND a hero. Anne (Silverthorne) From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Feb 9 07:51:33 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 07:51:33 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90521 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol, who still can't find the motto in her American editions Geoff: In the UK editions, it occurs in the drawing of the Hogwarts badge which is on the title page. From belijako at online.no Mon Feb 9 10:30:43 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 10:30:43 -0000 Subject: No mystery guest in OOP? In-Reply-To: <74.3816288e.2d57d243@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90522 Cassie: Maybe that's my criteria. Good characters that WE would have never expected to be the villian. Berit replies: Cassie asks why there are no seemingly good guy being revealed as the baddie in OoP like in the other four HP books. Other posts have suggested Umbridge, though she doesn't quite fit Cassie's criteria since she's already "bad". I've read the posts in this thread, and no one so far has suggested James. James is an interesting twist on the "bad-guy-being-revealed" theme! Of all the bad guy revelations, this one's the one that probably upset Harry the most. Harry finds out at last that his father James the saint and hero was no saint and that Snape was right all along. Of course, Sirius and Lupin try to balance the picture, assuring Harry James grew out of it and/or was not totally bad. But think about it: The most devastating revelation in OoP (maybe apart from Harry finding out the defeat of Voldemort lies entirely on his houlders) was for Harry to have the picture of a good and noble father shattered into a thousand pieces. So I'm voting for James being the good guy revealed to be the villain in OoP... I know; it's a slight twist compared to the "good-guy- turning-out-bad-revelations" in the previous books, but that makes the revelation even more significant in my eyes. Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From belijako at online.no Mon Feb 9 10:51:05 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 10:51:05 -0000 Subject: DD an animagus? In-Reply-To: <004701c3ee9e$64eddee0$0600a8c0@HOMESARAH> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90523 Sarah wrote: When Harry enters the Mirror of Erised room, there is an upturned wastepaper basket on the floor. It seems an odd detail to include for "atmosphere," and I've often wondered if something could be underneath the basket. Berit replies: A good observation! I hadn't thought of that. I haven't got the book with me, and I don't recall whether the up-turned waste basket was present the first, second or third time Harry came around (the first time he was -seemingly- alone, the second time he was with Ron and the third time DD made his presence known; correct?). If Harry noticed the wastebasket the first or second time, I don't think anyone was hiding underneath it. I think someone was sitting on it: An invisible Dumbledore :-). That would be the logical thing to do,; wouldn't it: If there were no chairs around, make one by turning the wastebasket upside down to make a seat. Of course, DD could have conjured up a nice squashy armchair to sit in; but an armchair would have looked just as out of place in that room as the mirror of Erised did (unless he made it invisible too :-). By the way; the third time around Dumbledore revealed himself sitting on top of one of the desks that were stored along the wall as far as I recall. Still not conjuring up a decent armchair, is he :-) Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Mon Feb 9 04:42:32 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 04:42:32 -0000 Subject: Canon support for the return of Sirius and other dead characters (?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90524 For a long while I was sincerely in doubt that we would ever see Sirius again in any form. I felt this because of JKR's confirming his death in an interview and the way she explained it it seemed final. I hated this feeling more than any other emotion that the book had brought out. Now I have reread OotP, I saw hope for some sort of return of the dead. I reread the part when Luna and Harry were conversing at the end of the book. I will place emphasis on the parts that seemed a bit hidden (for me anyway, I am not that much of a "read between the lines" sort of gal). These come from the chapter of OotP entitled "The Second War Begins" UK version pages 760-761. The only two people talking in these snippets are Luna and Harry. "There is no need for them to take your things" he said flatly. "D'you want help finding them?" "Oh, no," she said smiling a him. "THEY'LL COME BACK, THEY ALWAYS DO IN THE END. It was just that I WANTED to pack tonight..." Then... "Yes, it was rather horrible," said Luna conversationally. "I still feel very sad about it sometimes. But I've still got Dad. ANd anyway, it's NOT as though I'LL NEVER SEE MUM AGAIN, IS IT?" Then... "OH, COME ON. YOU HEARD THEM, JUST BEHIND THE VEIL, DIDN'T YOU?" Then... "Are you sure you dont want me to help you look for your stuff?" he said. "Oh, no," said Luna. "NO, I THINK I'LL JUST GO DOWN AND HAVE SOME PUDDING AND WAIT FOR IT ALL TO TURN UP... IT ALWAYS DOES IN THE END... " Ok, now I know that is not clear cut proof of anything, the only seemingly hopeful part is the one where Luna tells Harry that they are just beyond the veil. But, I thought how interesting it was that Luna kept emphisizing that whatever she lost will turn up in the end, but she really wanted them now. That part made me think that maybe JKR was trying to tell us that loss is not finite, and that eventually you'll get back what you lost, though it may not be when you demand them. Or at least in Harry's case. Now that can also mean that Harry will die and that he will meet up with his family, as one of his enemies promised ( I think in CoS when Tom was being a jerk in the end). Or, perhaps that it means that in the end of the series, Harry will reunite with Sirius and maybe Lily and James; though JKR promised that we will never see a living James and Lily. Any thoughts? Sawsan From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Mon Feb 9 00:26:58 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 00:26:58 -0000 Subject: Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90525 Beckah wrote: > Just a quick question...has anybody heard anything about book six?? > I look all the time - when I have the time - but I haven't been able > to for a while. Sorry if this has been asked about a thousand times, Yes the sixth year at Hogwarts is mentioned in book four. Moody (Crouch Jr.) tell Harry's DADA class that in thier sixth year they will actually be shown what the bad curses that people like the death eaters use. So we can expect some very interesting DADA classes in book six. From topfor at aol.com Mon Feb 9 00:33:02 2004 From: topfor at aol.com (smtopliff) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 00:33:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90526 What about an animal that kills snakes? How about a mongoose? Maybe his Patronus is Rikki Tikki Tavi, but with major attitude. From mrsbrooksathome at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 06:57:50 2004 From: mrsbrooksathome at yahoo.com (mrsbrooksathome) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 06:57:50 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90527 Here's a question that has always nagged at me: In the first book, Hagrid tells Harry about his vault and all that good stuff, and on numerou occasions throughout the series, Harry having more money than Ron is an issue. Where did the money come from? I know Lily and James supposedly left it for him... But where did they get it? And has anyone ever mentioned what they did for a living? I know they were in the OOTP, but as I understand it, that is not exactly a paying career? Ideas? From topfor at aol.com Mon Feb 9 00:18:54 2004 From: topfor at aol.com (smtopliff) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 00:18:54 -0000 Subject: Entering the Chamber In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90528 Constance Vigilance: > > I think this > > fact was demonstrated when Ron's wand malfunction in the Chamber > > tunnel FAR below Hogwarts was able to cause a cave-in and block the > > roomy passageway way up on the 4th floor. This is the secret > > passageway that the twins and Sirius mention. I think this is good > > evidence that at least those two passageways are related. I think > > most or all of them are related - and many of them lead out. > > IS it possible that we may find out in Book 6 that the passageway on the fourth floor is actually NOT caved in but just a bit of the castle that Fred and George needed to keep to themselves? Did they make the Skiving Snackboxes in their room or in the secret passageway on the fourth floor? Just wondering.... .s. From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Sun Feb 8 22:00:13 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 22:00:13 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90529 I think this (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90465) is quite an interesting post. The only thing I can think of when it comes to the Chamber and the plumbing is that Tom had to appeal to Slytherin so that the Basilisk could come out of his, Slytherin's, statue's mouth. I do expect that the mouth of that statue leads to the plumbing ( which makes me think that Slytherin was full of ... um... well you get the picture). Perhaps Tom took the road of Slytherin, and that is how he learned about possession and perhaps immortality. There is something about snakes and dragons in this story that seems to be important, so I don't doubt that there is something else going on with the Chamber, though a second basilisk seems boring now that we have Voldie back in the flesh (if you want to call it that). I have been doing some reading about snakes, and they seem to represent immortality in ancient legends. As for Carolyn's dragon theory, was that canon or filk? It was interesting, but you got me feeling that I have missed something big about Smorg(?) and Dumbledore. I am pretty sure Slytherin left a big part of himself behind, aside from his Monkey Boy Statue in the Chamber. I don't think it's Slytherin's ghost, because they don't seem to be able to do much. Peeves has more abilities than the ghosts, though the Bloody Baron strangely enough scares the hell of him. So I don't think it would be strange to have another sort of undead power in Hogwarts, though I would think that DD would be able to banish it, as he does with Peeves. Anyway, this has me wondering more and more about why Dumbledore does not make certain changes. Maybe we need to look at Fantastic Beasts again to see if there are any horrible monsters that we haven't run into yet. But I think we will find something that was so obvious we will kick ourselves about not putting it together. Sawsan From amani at charter.net Mon Feb 9 11:34:50 2004 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 06:34:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where did the money come from? References: Message-ID: <000d01c3ef00$bae64f00$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90530 mrsbrooksathome: Here's a question that has always nagged at me: In the first book, Hagrid tells Harry about his vault and all that good stuff, and on numerou occasions throughout the series, Harry having more money than Ron is an issue. Where did the money come from? I know Lily and James supposedly left it for him... But where did they get it? And has anyone ever mentioned what they did for a living? I know they were in the OOTP, but as I understand it, that is not exactly a paying career? Ideas? Taryn: What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive? Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-livechat-aol.html ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 9 11:33:45 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:33:45 -0000 Subject: Unicorn horns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90531 I may have just imagined it, as I can't find the reference, but I have a feeling that unicorn horns were used for something or other (potions, possibly). Perhaps I'm confusing it with unicorn hairs being used in wands, together with things like dragon's heart- strings. Do unicorns shed their horns or would there be any way of obtaining a horn without killing the creature, which would be unthinkable. I'm probably going off on a completely wild-goose chase here but it's worrying me a bit. Can anyone help? Sylvia From claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 11:30:09 2004 From: claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:30:09 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90532 "mrsbrooksathome wrote: Where did the money come from? I know Lily and James supposedly left it for him... But where did they get it? And has anyone ever mentioned what they did for a living? I know they were in the OOTP, but as I understand it, that is not exactly a paying career? Ideas?" The only reference to James and Lily, having jobs in the books comes from Uncle Vernon. (Probably not the best source of infomation). I am guessing that they did have jobs, aswell as working for the OotP. Similar to Arthur, Tonks, Kingsley he work at the MoM or McGonagall, Hagrid and Dumbledore himself who worked at Hogwarts. Some theories are that the Potters were a rich family and that James inherited a fair sum, but I think they did have jobs. James possibly playing Quidditch, and I do not know what sort of job Lily might of had. Maybe their career choices come up in later books. Harry does have the advantage of 10 years worth of interest though as well. Any suggestions to what jobs Lily might have been doing? Chris Read my fanfic at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/merlin_legacy From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 14:30:47 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 14:30:47 -0000 Subject: Canon support for the return of Sirius and other dead characters (?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90533 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > For a long while I was sincerely in doubt that we would ever see > Sirius again in any form. I felt this because of JKR's confirming his > death in an interview and the way she explained it it seemed final. I > hated this feeling more than any other emotion that the book had > brought out. Now I have reread OotP, I saw hope for some sort of > return of the dead. I reread the part when Luna and Harry were > conversing at the end of the book. I will place emphasis on the parts > that seemed a bit hidden (for me anyway, I am not that much of a "read > between the lines" sort of gal). I've been thinking alot about this lately. Whenever you read something in this series that rings a bit odd, it's usually a clue, rather than just a superfluous detail or poorly-structured sentence. And the whole discussion with Luna certainly rang odd with me. Luna seems to represent an unbridled faith in things that seem impossible, and her words seem very prophetic. I've said this before, but I just can't believe that JKR would have spent all of this time and energy on a character (Sirius) just to have him die before being resolved, or even fleshed out. In literary terms, this seems like a very badly developed character -- but, we know that JKR doesn't just throw in poorly developed characters and then just move on, does she? JKR has said (I believe it was the Albert Hall interview) that characters can't come back when they are *properly* dead. Sounds like a bit of a fluff to me! What is *properly* dead, anyway? Anyway, I know that this has been discussed before, but Sirius' death seems terribly dodgy to me: 1.It is clear in the text that Bellatrix threw a curse at Sirius; but that's not the one that hit him. A second one did. We don't know what color it was (was it green?), and we don't know who threw it. Seems to be Bellatrix. But it could have been anyone. Even an Order member. 2.And just how could Remus have been so sure that Sirius was dead? Big read flag. The reader has to realize that it's no accident that JKR chose Remus, the most outside of outsiders in the WW, to tell Harry that Sirius was dead. We have to question just how Remus would know what what going on with that veil (he has no access to what goes on at the Ministry, let alone the Dept. of Mysteries), unless he had been told beforehand by someone in the Order. Unless Sirius' "death" had been planned. Gonna go look through the book again to see if Luna's sentiments are repeated anywhere else. Cheers! :: Entropy :: , who wonders if Sirius would show up in the Room of Requirement if Harry needed to speak to him. From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 14:36:44 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 14:36:44 -0000 Subject: Unicorn horns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > I may have just imagined it, as I can't find the reference, but I > have a feeling that unicorn horns were used for something or other > (potions, possibly). Perhaps I'm confusing it with unicorn hairs > being used in wands, together with things like dragon's heart- > strings. Do unicorns shed their horns or would there be any way of > obtaining a horn without killing the creature, which would be > unthinkable. I'm probably going off on a completely wild-goose chase > here but it's worrying me a bit. Can anyone help? > Sylvia Don't know if this is what you're looking for, but: Book 1, The Forbidden Forest (pg. 258 US ed.) "Harry Potter, do you know what unicorn blood is used for?" "No," said Harry, startled by the odd question. "We've only used the horn and tail hair in Potions." "That is because it is a monstrous thing, to slay a unicorn," said Firenze. :: Entropy :: From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 14:40:47 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 14:40:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: <007101c3eeda$68b9e3c0$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90535 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: > Your 'favorite' is indeed obvious in the way you defend him to the exclusion > of all others, including his number one protector, Dumbledore. No arguement > there, and no condemnation either, but considering what you hint at in your > own belief system, I am not surprised either. It is obvious you empathize > completely with him. That's not a bad thing...but there is such a thing as > over-empathizing...^^; > Anne, just a brief note. I never said that I don't like other characters. I think that you can safely say that I will always defend Harry over Snape (does not mean that I don't like him either :o)) Besides that I adore so many others in "potterverse". If you must know for quite a long time I could not pick a favourite one. I love Sirius dearly for example and still hope that he will come back. :o) I am going to answer your post in more detail in the evening and probably off list. Let me just say that although our personal experiences shape the way we look at the characters, I think you give mine too much importance. Have to start working now. Alla From claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 11:52:15 2004 From: claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:52:15 -0000 Subject: FF: Re: Canon support for the return of Sirius and other dead characters (?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90536 "Sawsan wrote: For a long while I was sincerely in doubt that we would ever see Sirius again in any form. I felt this because of JKR's confirming his death in an interview and the way she explained it it seemed final. Or, perhaps that it means that in the end of the series, Harry will reunite with Sirius and maybe Lily and James; though JKR promised that we will never see a living James and Lily. Any thoughts?" Just a couple....Most of this comes from an idea I toyed with whilst planning out my plotline for my fanfic book, "HP & Merlin's Wand", the original idea was to bring Sirius, Lily and James back to life, but in the end my co-writer said this meant all the sympathy Harry got from readers vanished. I did this by assuming that Sirius did not die from Bella's curse. There is no mention in the book that it was AK, it just says a coloured jet of light. Not that AK is the only curse that can kill, (I think). In the original write of MW I pointed out that all ghosts in HP had died prematurely, (but that is another thread!), so I guessed that those people that did not chose to stay in the real world as ghosts, ended up in the Department of Mysteries behind the veil. (How else would James and Lily know to be proud of Harry in GoF.) Using the fact that Sirius had not died, I allowed him to be able to leave the veil as a "not quite ghost" similar to Voldemort after he attacked Harry (Round One). Sirius then persuaded Dumbledore to cast the spell from GoF, that Pettigrew cast to resurrect Voldemort. Sirius then performed the curse on Lily and James. Here is the extract from the original attempt of MW, from Ch4: ""Dead?" asked James, "sorry to disappoint but we are not dead. Nor were we ever. Wizards that have their lives prematurely taken from them, do not die in the same way as wizards who die naturally. Have you not noticed that all the school ghosts died prematurely?" "So if you were not dead, were you ghosts?" asked Mrs. Weasley. "No, as we chose not to. We died as a family or at least we meant to," Lily stole a glance at Harry, "so we decided to let go. Then we found ourselves locked up in the Department of Mysteries." "Why were you locked up?" asked Ron. James continued, "Well the Ministry decided that it was better to keep all the souls of people who had been killed as both a punishment and as a safeguard. Punishment for getting killed and a safeguard as firstly, you do not want wizards with revenge running around the country to kill the person that killed them as you would have a problem, and secondly, to stop the Dark Magic needed to re-awake the remnants from being used." "So how did you come back?" asked Ron. "Well Sirius convinced Dumbledore to cast the spell on him and let him use it on us. Dumbledore is, as you know, the greatest wizard of our time and he understands things and trusts people where others would not. He trusted Sirius and understood what he wanted, so he helped him." So while I know believe James and Lily will not come back in JKR's books, I like Saswan, believe that Sirius will return!! Alternatively, Harry vs Voldemort turns into the Apocalypse and all the dead return, perhaps; probably not. Chris Read my fanfic at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/merlin_legacy From SnapesRaven at web.de Mon Feb 9 12:23:28 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:23:28 +0100 Subject: Where did the money come from? References: <000d01c3ef00$bae64f00$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <001401c3ef07$86c7dac0$d540bfd5@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 90537 mrsbrooksathome: Here's a question that has always nagged at me: In the first book, Hagrid tells Harry about his vault and all that good stuff, and on numerou occasions throughout the series, Harry having more money than Ron is an issue. Where did the money come from? I know Lily and James supposedly left it for him... But where did they get it? And has anyone ever mentioned what they did for a living? I know they were in the OOTP, but as I understand it, that is not exactly a paying career? Ideas? SnapesRaven: Good morning! As far as I know, Harry's parents were aurors; I think I read it here onlist but I haven't got my books at hand right now, so no canon evidence. Perhaps this helps you? I think the auror job is just as well- or ill-paid as any other - but regarding the importance for the MoM, it might be rather the first option: well-paid and therefore one reason for Harry's parents' fortune, apart from his father's own inheritance. SnapesRaven From c_robocker at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 15:12:49 2004 From: c_robocker at yahoo.com (c_robocker) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:12:49 -0000 Subject: Canon support for the return of Sirius and other dead characters (?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90538 Sawsan wrote: > > For a long while I was sincerely in doubt that we would ever see > > Sirius again in any form. I felt this because of JKR's confirming his > > death in an interview and the way she explained it it seemed final. I > > hated this feeling more than any other emotion that the book had > > brought out. Now I have reread OotP, I saw hope for some sort of > > return of the dead. I reread the part when Luna and Harry were > > conversing at the end of the book. I will place emphasis on the parts > > that seemed a bit hidden (for me anyway, I am not that much of a "read > > between the lines" sort of gal). Entropy: > I've said this before, but I just can't believe that JKR would have > spent all of this time and energy on a character (Sirius) just to have > him die before being resolved, or even fleshed out. In literary terms, > this seems like a very badly developed character -- but, we know that > JKR doesn't just throw in poorly developed characters and then just > move on, does she? JKR has said (I believe it was the Albert Hall > interview) that characters can't come back when they are *properly* > dead. Sounds like a bit of a fluff to me! What is *properly* dead, > anyway? > > :: Entropy :: , who wonders if Sirius would show up in the Room of > Requirement if Harry needed to speak to him. I recall that in one of JKR's interviews, she said that there was a death coming that was going to be horrible to write but 'has to be'. (link: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/1201-bbc-staff.htm) In a later interview about the OotP, she said that she had cried after writing the a scene in the book where she killed a character. I took both interviews to be talking about the death of Sirius. (Dangerous assumption, I know, with two more books to come.) What struck me was the comment that it 'has to be'. That makes me think that the reason she did it was a major plot point. Perhaps the purpose of the 'death' of Sirius is the 1) influence of the event on Harry that shapes him to handle the future. Or perhaps the veil is something else altogether, a one-way transport of some type to place and/or time, and where/when ever it took Sirius, 2) it took him where/when that he can do something to bring about the ultimate victory over V. Then again, the discussion with Luna makes me think that Harry will 3) see his family and Sirius in an afterlife. I sort of think the second is a good possibility - after such a tragic life and unjust suffering, it would give Sirius the opportunity to clear his name. And then the third is good as well - just hopefully not at the end of book 7! CRobo, who is waving 'hello' to the list elves and uses the words 'some' and 'perhaps' and 'maybe' an awful lot when thinking about HP. From rredordead at aol.com Mon Feb 9 15:39:49 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:39:49 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90539 mrsbrooksathome wrote: > Where did the money come from? I know Lily and James >supposedly left it for him... But where did they get it? And has >anyone ever mentioned what they did for a living? I know they were >in the OOTP, but as I understand it, that is not exactly a paying >career? Ideas? Mandy here: Well the fortune had to have been inherited or donated as James and Lily only had a couple of years after leaving school before they died, yet they were still able to leave their son a vast fortune. So, unless Gringotts has an unbelievable savings plan, it must have come from somewhere else and I can think of 3 possible sources: The Potters, The Evanses or some other wealthy source. The first thought is it comes from James, because it is generally assumed that money comes from the male partner. It is convenient, certainly, to believe the Potters were wealthy as we not met any of them, yet, and we have met Lily's sister Petunia, who doesn't seem particularly wealthy, but that doesn't necessarily mean her parents weren't. I have always had the impression that James was from a rich family. I don't know why, except that it does seem appropriate, that because he and Sirius were best of friends they were of the same ilk. Meaning that they were both from rich, pureblooded wizarding families. In fact I have always assumed that all four of the maurders were wealthy purebloods. But of course this is all conjecture. With the exception of Sirius; I have no canon to support this idea. But it is also interesting, if the money came from Lily's family. We know Petunia is not especially wealthy, but we don't know anything about their parents. Perhaps Lily's and Petunia's parents were the wealthy ones and left the bulk of their fortune to their beloved daughter, the one who was the witch they were so excited to give birth to. It would add fuel to Petunia's hatred and possible jealousy of her sister. Or perhaps Lily received an inheritance from a wizarding relative, an aunt or cousin who ignored Petunia. Or, better still, Petunia refused to accept money from a magical source, and then saw Lily and her husband spend it all on fighting a guerrilla war, that resulted in their death. The only other source I can come up right now is some kind of fund that was set up by DD or the Order, that the WW world could donate to. Benefiting baby Harry Potter as he grows up, as a thank you for ridding the world of `He Who Must Not Be Named'. But that seems boring somehow. As for a job, well if James and Lily were wealthy enough they wouldn't just need one, and that would enable them both to devote all their time to working with the Order. K Keep in mind that in the two or so years James and Lily were out of school, before they were killed, they actively fought a war, were constantly living with the threat of capture, torture and death by LV and his Death Eaters, got married and had a baby. They kept themselves pretty busy that would have let hardly any room a starter job, let alone a career. Just some thoughts. Cheers Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Mon Feb 9 16:05:19 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:05:19 -0000 Subject: Could Lily have trained to be an Auror while Pregnant? In-Reply-To: <001401c3ef07$86c7dac0$d540bfd5@henrike> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90540 > SnapesRaven wrote: > Good morning! As far as I know, Harry's parents were aurors; I think I read it here onlist but I haven't got my books at hand right now, so no canon evidence. Mandy here: I have a problem with Lily being able to become an Auror in the short space of time between when she left school, and the time she died. It was only about 2 years. 3 at the most. Now, we know Tonks is a newly trained Auror and she is only 20 years old, right? So that makes the training program roughly 2 years long, so logically James and Lily had the time. But Lily was pregnant and had a baby. Now I'm assuming the training program is very physical, like training to be a policeman/woman or magical army boot camp. Could Lily have had the time and the ability to Auror train, work for the Order, and carry and have a baby? Don't forget you have the pregnancy, the birth and the beautiful hell of not sleeping for 4 or 5 months after the birth. I have these dates: Lily left school in 1978 (from Lexicon) Auror training: 1978-1980 (my speculation) Got pregnant Sept/Oct 1979 (logical deduction from date of birth) Gave birth July 1980 (from Lexicon) So this only give her just over 1 year of physical freedom to train. Summer 1978 ? autumn 1979. Also bear in mine she was a member of the Order during this time and actively fighting LV. I do see Lily as a superwoman, and I want to believe it is possible as I'm a young woman and want to be able to do it all, but I just don't see how she could have done it. Any thoughts? I would love to be proved wrong on this one. Cheers Mandy From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 16:05:04 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:05:04 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble (longer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > CRobo wrote: > > Very interesting. I bought my daughter the "Chamber of Secrets" > > computer game for Christmas. In it, one of the spells is > > "MimbleWimble or Stuttering Charm > > "Causes your opponent to mess up his or her next spell." > > > > JKR was involved in some portions of the development of this game > > according to the credits. This implies to me that Vernon might > have > > a bit more WW knowledge than I realized. And if he really did > utter > > a charm, and it was effective (Hagrid's attempt to turn Dudley into > > a pig only succeeded in Dudley gaining a tail), then is Vernon > > capable of magic? Yikes! > > > > Neri now: > This thread have become intriguing and I'm really sorry to squash it, > but here is a bit from JKR's interview I just came across while > looking for something else: > > America Online, October 19, 2000, Chat Transcript > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-aol-chat.htm > > "Q: Does everyone have a little magic in them? Even if they are > Muggles? And if not, how did magic start? > > JKR answers: I think we do (outside the books), but within my books -- > do you really think there's any magic in Uncle Vernon? Magic is one > of those odd talents which some have and some don't." > > JKR doesn't lie in her interviews (that I know of) and here she > brought up Vernon herself. > > On the other hand, she did not specifically said "Uncle Vernon > doesn't have magic in him", but "do you really think there's any > magic in Uncle Vernon?". So all of you Uncle Vernon's fans, there is > still hope 8-) > > Neri LizVega here: Isn't it odd that she mentioned Uncle Vernon in the context of that question! We are to assume that, no, there is no magic in uncle vernon- but that's not what she says- she continues to say that magic is one of those odd talents that some people have and others do not- but she didn't say that Uncle Vernon doesn't have any magic in him- she asks if we the readers think that uncle vernon has any magic in him. I wonder if the question caught her off guard- Jo gets flustered and starts stuttering during some of her interviews- bless her : )- but what if she was just surprised that we were questioning everyone's 'orientation' as it were- since she's gone to such painstaking efforts to identify everyone to us! But, isn't usually a viable option to question who/what/when everyone is? In the WW that is? And, one of the major themes of the books has been prejudice, bigotry, intolerance. We have gotten so good at 'categorizing' everyone- and that's what her characters and their endeavors are trying to teach us not to do- I wouldn't be one bit surprised if vernon is magical, or dudley for that matter, or petunia. Just like Harry and Hagrid think they're the biggest bunch of muggles in the world- so do we- but what if we/Harry are wrong? How would that affect Harry or the plot? From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 16:11:26 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:11:26 -0000 Subject: FF: Re: Canon support for the return of Sirius and other dead characters (?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90542 "Sawsan wrote: > For a long while I was sincerely in doubt that we would ever see > Sirius again in any form. I felt this because of JKR's confirming his > death in an interview and the way she explained it it seemed final. Chris: ...by assuming that Sirius did not die from Bella's curse. There is no mention in the book that it was AK, it just says a coloured jet of light So while I believe James and Lily will not come back in JKR's books, I like Saswan, believe that Sirius will return!! Entropy: Let's not forget that JKR has already (very conveniently) provided us with a potion which could convince everyone of Sirius' death. We all remember Snape's infamous "...bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death..." speech during Harry's first Potions lesson (Book 1, Ch 8 The Potions Master). But don't forget that, during the same tirade, he goes on to say: "What would I get if I added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?...For your information, Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death." As we know, most of JKR's very specific details usually come back to "haunt" us. Since this potion hasn't been utilized yet, perhaps it will be the means by which Sirius will "hide out" through Book 6 and maybe even 7. Now that Lucius recognized his animagus form at King's Cross, Sirius certainly needs to find a new means hiding in plain sight. :: Entropy :: From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 9 16:21:35 2004 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:21:35 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4027B38F.7090205@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90543 Chris wrote: > Any suggestions to what jobs Lily might have been doing? > > Chris How about she worked at the MOM as an Unspeakable in the Dept of Mysteries, specialising in research into LOVE MAGIC ;-) digger From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 16:26:54 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:26:54 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mrsbrooksathome" wrote: > Here's a question that has always nagged at me: In the first book, > Hagrid tells Harry about his vault and all that good stuff, and on > numerou occasions throughout the series, Harry having more money > than Ron is an issue. Where did the money come from? I know Lily > and James supposedly left it for him... But where did they get it? > And has anyone ever mentioned what they did for a living? I know > they were in the OOTP, but as I understand it, that is not exactly a > paying career? Ideas? LizVega here: JKR said in an interview that James inherited the money and that HE DIDN'T HAVE TO HAVE A WELL PAYING JOB- so maybe they didn't work at all? If the timelines are correct, then it would've been very time consuming to work for the order, get married, have the baby, and do anything else in that amount of time. If I inherited a lot of money, and took into account the conditions I was living through ie voldemort, I probably wouldn't work either. I think it's interesting that jo said that james didn't have to have a well paying job- it makes me start thinking about all of the jobs that we know of that aren't well paying. Who's poor? From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Feb 9 16:30:51 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:30:51 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: <003901c3ee83$f5a40740$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90545 {Anne} >>And usually I would say the same about a Vampiric former bad guy trying todo good (Snape as a Vampire), but not here. Snape is already messed upenough. Adding that inhuminty factor will only excuse his behiavior, notexplain it--a cop out to say the least in regards to a very complicated,messed up man. But again, we won't know what Rowling will do...just that it will be intersting...<< Pippin: Ah, I think I see what you're saying. And I'm sorry if I've come on too strong about this in the past. To me, Rowling's Elves, Vampires, Centaurs, etc are "people", and talk of them being less than "human" in that sense makes me want to start quoting Shylock. But that's just me. I don't have a problem with mythical races representing various states of moral development in other works--I just don't think Rowling is going there. As far as I can see, Rowling's inhuman characters don't have a patent on inhumanity. The ability to do evil is not more inherent in one species than another, IMO. Any notion I had that witches and wizards are morally "better" than anyone else was demolished along with the Fountain of Magical Brethren at the end of OOP. I don't think that Rowling wants us to believe that Bane has a talent for being nasty because centaurs are like that, but humans are all basically good and only become evil through external circumstances. IMO, Snape has a talent for evil, whether it was instilled in him by human cruelty, vampiric ancestry, human ancestry or sheer cussedness. But he made a choice later in life that reversed some earlier ones, and put his talents to a different use. Berating schoolchildren is hardly admirable, but surely it's preferable to joining an evil megalomaniac in his conquest of the world! IMO, Harry too has a nasty side, one which he has never cultivated because he has never wanted to be like the Dursleys or Draco. Now his situation is more complicated. Between his discoveries about his father, his hatred of Snape, which he believes to be righteous, and his realization that even Dumbledore does things that he knows will cause pain to others, Harry might find himself tempted. Pippin From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 9 17:14:55 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:14:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: <4027B38F.7090205@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20040209171455.14072.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90546 Udder_P_D My thought is that there is sufficent for schooling, but not an excessive ammount of money in Harry's vault. We have cannon for him not buying a Firebolt when it first came out incase he ran out of money. IMO what he has is Potter money and there may well be a lot more of it in trust awaiting his eighteenth birthday (seventeenth still in Hogwarts), we will just have to wait and see. U Pendradon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save ?80 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 9 17:37:38 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 17:37:38 -0000 Subject: Unicorn horns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90547 Entropy quoted from The Forbidden Forest chapter (Pg 258 in US edition): "Harry Potter, do you know what unicorn blood is used for?" "No" said Harry, startled by the odd question "We've only used the horn and tail hair in Potions". Thanks, Entrophy, that is exactly the bit I was trying to remember. But I'm still puzzled as to how they obtain the unicorn's horn without harming the animal. Do unicorns shed their horns? Or are the horns removed after the creature has died naturally? I imagine unicorns must be pretty rare, even in the WW so how do they obtain sufficient horns for school-children to use in potion making? Sylvia From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 9 18:03:00 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:03:00 -0000 Subject: Unicorn horns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90548 Apologies, Entropy, for mis-spelling your name. I have had a pretty exhausting day with a rampant two-year-old, and am having difficulty in spelling my own. Sylvia (I think) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 18:09:04 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:09:04 -0000 Subject: Could Lily have trained to be an Auror while Pregnant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90549 > > SnapesRaven wrote: > > Good morning! As far as I know, Harry's parents were aurors; I > think I read it here onlist but I haven't got my books at hand right > now, so no canon evidence. > > Mandy here: > I have a problem with Lily being able to become an Auror in the > short space of time between when she left school, and the time she > died. Neri now: IIRC, there is no canon to even suggest that Lily and James were aurors, although they certainly were members in the Order. In General, only a few of the members of either the original or the current Order were aurors. However, if Lily practiced a lot of defensive spells while she was pregnant, this may explain why Harry is naturally good at it 8-) Neri From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 18:14:50 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:14:50 -0000 Subject: The Secret Garden / Colin Creevy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90550 Just finished watching "The Secret Garden", and was struck by some similarities between one of the main characters and Colin Creevey. 1. First of all, the names. The Secret Garden character's name is Colin Craven. 2. Both Colin Craven and Colin Creevey are small, mousey children, perhaps a bit naive and definitely socially inept. 3. Colin Craven spends a good deal of the story in his bed, unable to walk, due to a mysterious (imagined) disease. Colin Creevey spends a good deal of "The Chamber of Secrets" in his (hospital) bed, unable to walk due to a mysterious petrification. 4. Colin Craven takes to photography, and makes a few interesting discoveries while looking through his lens. And Colin Creevey, well, you know... Just thought I'd share this bit, as it's always nice to see where JKR is coming from. :: Entropy :: From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Mon Feb 9 18:00:29 2004 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (szydlowskil) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:00:29 -0000 Subject: Harrys Scar Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90551 Pursuing my own study of Runology, I've been reading "The Well and the Tree" by Paul Bauschatz(1982, University of Minnesota Press). A footnote from his discussion of Beowulf's fight with the dragon jumped out at me. The bracketed explanations of Bauschat's terminology are mine. >From page 214, Note 17: "Beowulf is, at this point, faege {marked}. This contrasts with his earlier comment: naes ic faege pa gyt 'I was not yet marked' (2141), which he makes to Hygelac in his report of his battle with Grendel's Mother. The term always refers to some special marking or significance of an apparently ordinary actor, which places him within the flow of the powers behind the normal. It regularly occurs in relation to actions that lead to death, especially in an important or meaningful death, the ultimate significance. It is thus clearly related to the power of wyrd itself.{Earlier in the text, Bauschatz describes wyrd as "the influential power of the past upon the present reality", page 28.} Beowulf, whose greatness is touched by the action is "marked", and he bears within him the full impact of all the actions related to and deriving from the theft." Harry's scar, if it indeed is a rune, may indicate he is also marked in another less visible, yet highly signifiacant, fashion. Incidentally, from Bauschat's text, it is to be expected that a woman had something to do with Harry's mark, particularly "a woman who knows much about the nature of the universe", with "a gift of prophesy", and "more in touch with forces beyond this life". Lynette From rtb333 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 18:11:10 2004 From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:11:10 -0000 Subject: Unicorn horns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90552 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" > Sylvia wrote: > > Thanks, Entrophy, that is exactly the bit I was trying to remember. > But I'm still puzzled as to how they obtain the unicorn's horn > without harming the animal. Do unicorns shed their horns? Or are the > horns removed after the creature has died naturally? I imagine > unicorns must be pretty rare, even in the WW so how do they obtain > sufficient horns for school-children to use in potion making? Rob Now: Unicorn horns do not shed, or they would be called unicorn antlers. My guess is that since the horns of animals continually grow that some of the unicorn horn is cut or shaved off for use in potions. I think(no book with me) in "Fantastic Beasts" Rowling says that they live for a long time and are friendly toward women. This would provide the opportunity to gather the unicorn horn. Rob From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 18:26:15 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (dk59us) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:26:15 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from? (and what about Harry's grandparents?) In-Reply-To: <000d01c3ef00$bae64f00$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90553 mrsbrooksathome: Here's a question that has always nagged at me: In the first book, Hagrid tells Harry about his vault and all that good stuff, and on numerous occasions throughout the series, Harry having more money than Ron is an issue. Where did the money come from? I know Lily and James supposedly left it for him... But where did they get it? And has anyone ever mentioned what they did for a living? I know they were in the OOTP, but as I understand it, that is not exactly a paying career? Ideas? Taryn provides JKR's response from a 2000 AOL live chat: What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive? Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/ articles/2000/1000-livechat-aol.html Now Eustace_Scrubb: This subject always gets me wondering what happened to Harry's grandparents and when (since they are likely sources of inheritance). This quote from JKR suggests that one or both of James' parents were dead by the time of the attack on Godric's Hollow. (Of course, James' inheritance could have come from a favorite uncle, a family friend or an escaped convict lurking in the marshes, but it seems more likely to have come from his (recently) deceased parents. I say recently because (and I only have PS/SS at hand right now) I seem to recall that Sirius was taken in by James' parents when he left the Black household late in his Hogwarts career. If so, that would seem to mean that both of Harry's paternal grandparents were still living when James and Sirius were about 16 or 17, but seem to have been dead by the time the James was 21 or so (his age when LV killed him). We've heard about a lot of people who died in those years, but unless I've missed it, nothing about James' parents...do we even know their first names? And what about Lily Evans' parents? We know little more about them...maybe less. We know what Petunia tells Harry and Hagrid in the hut off the coast: "But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!" (PS/SS, Chapter 4) Do we ever hear _anything_ more about them? Presumably all four are among the "at least ten others" Harry sees in the Mirror of Erised (PS/SS, Chapter 12) but we learn only that some of the figures had green eyes and some had knobbly knees, etc. Only James and Lily are described in any detail. Trying to read clues to the rest of the saga from what JKR _has_ written or said is hard enough, but I can't help feeling that such a complete _lack_ of mention of these four people must be significant. Has JKR ever said that we'd learn more about Harry's grandparents...or only his parents? Eustace_Scrubb From rredordead at aol.com Mon Feb 9 19:05:48 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 19:05:48 -0000 Subject: The Hogwarts Time Bomb. Was: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90554 > Kneasy wrote: > Now for a wild guess. Diary!Tom was destroyed when the diary was > destroyed. The spirit of Salazar Slytherin will be destroyed when a certain something in the Chamber is destroyed. > Expect a big show-down under Hogwarts! Mandy here: Interesting post as usual Kneesy. I have laid my money on a show- down on Hogwarts grounds, after all it's the only thing that ties in everything, that we have so far. Not to mention the saga ends after year 7, no time for Harry to grow up and fight, nope, he has to do it while he is still at school. The uniting of the houses is going to be a major plot line the last book. JKR wouldn't waste such an important even of the new Sorting Hat song on a plot line that is just going to fizzle out. No, it's going to become more and more important at time goes on and the only thing that can save Harry, Hogwarts and the WW. DD seems to reign supreme as the only wizard LV fears, so DD must be destroyed for LV to reign completely. DD seems to center his power and existence at Hogwarts. He draws from its very existence and history and power as a breading ground for the wizarding youth. Hogwarts is DD Achilles heel. The only way to control a nation, is to control its youth, so again Hogwarts must be controlled and if not controlled destroyed. Fudge new this when he installed Umbridge at the school. Hogwarts contains the Chamber of Secrets, Salazar Slytherins seat of power, plus God knows what else. Either the Chamber must be destroyed or cleansed. Whichever one, the Chamber it not going to go down without a fight. A battle at Hogwarts allows for all the main players to be present, DD, Snape, Hagrid, McGonigal, HRH, Draco, Neville etc. etc. etc. Plus LV assorted DE's, Dementors, Dragons, Giants etc. Hogwarts is Harry's home and houses all his most beloved friends, so any threat to the school would be taken very seriously by Harry indeed. Harry Potter would fight to the death to save Hogwarts. Howarts contains the Mirror of Erised, the Room of Requirement, the Chamber of Secrets, Fawlks, Gawp, Dumbledore's Army, the seats of power for all four houses, the Forbidden Forest and all it contains. Plus Hagrid the one person to really know the forest, and last, but not least, the entire offspring of all of Britain's WW!!!! It's a time bomb waiting to go off! If LV really wants control he got to get into that school and the Chamber of Secrets is he doorway inside. I know I've got some more thoughts in my head somewhere, but I'm supposes to be working so, apologies for the weakness of this post but I think you get the general idea. Cheers Mandy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 20:27:56 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:27:56 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90555 -Carol: > > I do wonder how Harry is going to destroy Voldemort without > resorting > > to murder (his only alternative from his current perspective), but > I > > don't think he's going to ready himself for the final battle by > > practicing Unforgiveable Curses on his least favorite teacher. > > > > Carol > > Karen: > Is it really murder to defend oneself against an attack? Or is it > murder when both people are involved in a battle? I think that one > of the reasons for Harry's anger in OOP is to set up the anger he > will have to channel against Voldemort. I expect in the 6th book we > will see Harry working hard to prepare himself against a coming > battle. His pain at losing Sirius will be refocused on Voldemort. He > will still be angry with Snape, but somewhere along the line, they > will have to come to terms. My expectation is that he will still be > consumed with anger, but Voldemort (and by extension, Bellatrix) > will be his target. Harry's suspicions of Snape may keep him > misdirected, but eventually, he will understand Dumbledore's > confidence in Snape. Carol again: I that killing in self-defense or in battle doesn't constitute murder, but my point is, first, that Harry doesn't see it that way. From his present perspective, it's "murder or be murdered." He didn't want Sirius and Remus to become murderers and he doesn't want to become one himself. However, I think that, as usual, he's oversimplifying things and jumping to conclusions, and he doesn't yet see that it may be possible to destroy Voldemort without committing deliberate premeditated murder (just as he's already done with Quirrell). But there's another point that concerns me (already discussed at length on this list more than once): The only killing spell that Harry knows is an Unforgiveable Curse that requires either intense hatred or a cold indifference to murder to make it work. Either use will corrupt the soul. Tom Riddle, having committed one murder using a basilisk, coolly murdered his father and grandparents using Avada Kedavra and in so doing placed himself beyond redemption at the age of seventeen. Harry, IMO, must not learn to use the Unforgiveable Curses, which are the weapons of the enemy. They are not only illegal (unless the Ministry of Magic gives him special permission to use them and that seems most unlikely), they are Unforgiveable. They require the user to be indifferent to (or to desire) the death, pain, or loss of will of the victim, and that is not a direction I want to see Harry go. He needs (as Snape has told him), to control his emotions, to think and interpret what he sees without allowing it to be colored by anger or the desire for revenge. If he can't do so, he will become Voldemort's puppet. And if he kills Voldemort in the violence of his anger--or worse, in cold blood--he will have become another Tom Riddle, his own worst enemy. There is--there must be--another way, which neither Harry nor the reader sees. But if JKR allows Harry to use an Unforgiveable Curse on anyone (not counting the failed Crucio on Bellatrix which should be a mistake that he learns from), I will feel that JKR has betrayed me by failing to maintain her own distinction between good and evil. Carol From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Feb 9 20:27:04 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:27:04 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble (longer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" > And, one of the major themes of the books has been prejudice, > bigotry, intolerance. We have gotten so good at 'categorizing' > everyone- and that's what her characters and their endeavors are > trying to teach us not to do- I wouldn't be one bit surprised if > vernon is magical, or dudley for that matter, or petunia. Just like > Harry and Hagrid think they're the biggest bunch of muggles in the > world- so do we- but what if we/Harry are wrong? How would that > affect Harry or the plot? I've always thought Petunia would be the one to do magic "later in life" but you've almost got me convinced it might be Vernon!! His very late entry into the magic world would be quite stunning for Harry & Co. One of my favorite scenes in OOTP is the point where "....for the very first time in his life, Harry fully appreciated that Aunt Petunia was his mother's sister." (P. 38) Wonder if finding out Vernon has magical blood will also invite a moment of understanding for Harry? Jen, still convinced Petunia's the one, but considering Vernon for shock value From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 20:33:27 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:33:27 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mrsbrooksathome" wrote: > Here's a question that has always nagged at me: In the first book, > Hagrid tells Harry about his vault and all that good stuff, and on > numerou occasions throughout the series, Harry having more money > than Ron is an issue. Where did the money come from? I know Lily > and James supposedly left it for him... But where did they get it? > And has anyone ever mentioned what they did for a living? I know > they were in the OOTP, but as I understand it, that is not exactly a > paying career? Ideas? bboy_mn: In the equivalent age that the Wizard world appears to live in, we can safely assume that those who already have some money live by the adage 'it takes money to make money'. Where the Potter money originally came from we don't know, but once the Potter's (great grandparents, grandparents, parents, James, who ever...) had money, they probably perpetuated their wealth by making investments. In a sense, in that apparent day and age, if you had money, you were a businessman, but not so by anything so mundane and common as the selling of goods. Instead, by /financing/ the selling of goods, by being a facilitator of business transaction, by arranging connections between buyers and sellers, and by lending money. Since it's unlikely that there is a wizard's stocks and bonds market, and equally unlikely that wizards invest in the muggle market, the only remaining market that a wizard can invest in is, as I said, the facilitation of business transactions for a profit. If the Potter's were wealthy enough to have landed estates then the probably generated income from hiring people to manage that land. Example, much like the current royal family, they let farmers farm their land, the farmers do all the work, and the land owner takes a handsome share of the profits. If they owned general and/or commercial real estate then they drew money from the leasing of that property. Also, once they had money, they may have invested in substantial, but minor ownership of an on-going business; trading company, sale of products or services, etc.... So, based on my viewing of old movies, investing, lending, and ownership and management of real estate are the method most rich people used to perpetuate their wealth. If you are interested in a more detailed explaination, I have a post from a discussion that occurred in the grubby run down pub down the street about how Lucius Malfoy makes his money. Given James apparent wealth, the same information would apply to him. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/message/573 It's mostly an extended version with examples of what I've already said here. Just a thought. bboy_mn From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 20:40:02 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:40:02 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90558 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" But there's another point that concerns me (already discussed at > length on this list more than once): The only killing spell that Harry > knows is an Unforgiveable Curse that requires either intense hatred or > a cold indifference to murder to make it work. Either use will corrupt > the soul. Tom Riddle, having committed one murder using a basilisk, > coolly murdered his father and grandparents using Avada Kedavra and in > so doing placed himself beyond redemption at the age of seventeen. > Harry, IMO, must not learn to use the Unforgiveable Curses, which are > the weapons of the enemy. They are not only illegal (unless the > Ministry of Magic gives him special permission to use them and that > seems most unlikely), they are Unforgiveable. They require the user to > be indifferent to (or to desire) the death, pain, or loss of will of > the victim, and that is not a direction I want to see Harry go. > > More Snipping> There is--there must be--another way, which neither Harry nor the > reader sees. But if JKR allows Harry to use an Unforgiveable Curse on > anyone (not counting the failed Crucio on Bellatrix which should be a > mistake that he learns from), I will feel that JKR has betrayed me by > failing to maintain her own distinction between good and evil. > > Carol I absolutely agree that there must be another way. We have learned, more than once, that Harry needs to talk to people before he makes grand decisions about what he "must" do. As with his detentions with Umbridge, he will eventually confide in those closest to him and, I am sure, find out there is more than one way to eliminate Voldemort. I wonder how Dumbledore destroyed Grindywald? They never called DD a murderer, at least on his Chocolate Frog card. I am also sure that Moody caused the death of more than one DE and we know from what others have said about him that he never used the Unforgivables. My thoughts, Sue From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 20:42:15 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:42:15 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90559 > > Carol, who still can't find the motto in her American editions > > Geoff: > In the UK editions, it occurs in the drawing of the Hogwarts badge > which is on the title page. Thanks, Geoff. The American editions don't show it. Is it online somewhere? Carol From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 20:44:17 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:44:17 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90560 snip> If the Potter's were wealthy enough to have landed estates then the > probably generated income from hiring people to manage that land. > Example, much like the current royal family, they let farmers farm > their land, the farmers do all the work, and the land owner takes a > handsome share of the profits. >snip >> bboy_mn I just have one question. Who owns the Riddle house? Sue From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Feb 9 20:56:48 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:56:48 -0000 Subject: Riddle House Re: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90561 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > > I just have one question. Who owns the Riddle house? > Sue Why, Lucius Malfoy of course! :). OK, I don't know that for sure, but he's at least a candidate to be the "wealthy man who owned the Riddle House", keeping it for 'tax purposes' according to the villagers (GOF). I'm not sure to what end....perhaps Lucius needed access to something in the house, or knows of certain magical properties contained within, or it's part of his plot to overthrow LV and rule the WW himself....hey, it could happen. Jen, with her head full of conspiracy theories at the moment. From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Mon Feb 9 20:56:30 2004 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:56:30 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > Thanks, Geoff. The American editions don't show it. Is it online > somewhere? > > Carol http://www.hp-lexicon.org/w_pl_hogwarts.html I think this will help. Lliannashe From kkearney at students.miami.edu Mon Feb 9 21:03:16 2004 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:03:16 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > wrote: > > > Carol, who still can't find the motto in her American editions > > Geoff: > In the UK editions, it occurs in the drawing of the Hogwarts badge > which is on the title page. It's also found in "Fantastic Beasts..." in the forward written by Dumbledore. -Corinth From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 21:09:36 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:09:36 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90564 > LizVega here: > > JKR said in an interview that James inherited the money and that HE > DIDN'T HAVE TO HAVE A WELL PAYING JOB- so maybe they didn't work at > all? > > If the timelines are correct, then it would've been very time > consuming to work for the order, get married, have the baby, and do > anything else in that amount of time. > > If I inherited a lot of money, and took into account the conditions > I was living through ie voldemort, I probably wouldn't work either. > > I think it's interesting that jo said that james didn't have to have > a well paying job- it makes me start thinking about all of the jobs > that we know of that aren't well paying. Who's poor? A job that doesn't pay well? How about teaching? Snape isn't rich despite his (presumed) pureblood status. Which makes me wonder--what if James was the DADA teacher and his death started the jinx on that position? That would put a new twist on Snape's quest for the DADA post--and on his resentment of James, as well. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 21:29:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:29:34 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble (longer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90565 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" > > And, one of the major themes of the books has been prejudice, > > bigotry, intolerance. We have gotten so good at 'categorizing' > > everyone- and that's what her characters and their endeavors are > > trying to teach us not to do- I wouldn't be one bit surprised if > > vernon is magical, or dudley for that matter, or petunia. Just > like > > Harry and Hagrid think they're the biggest bunch of muggles in the > > world- so do we- but what if we/Harry are wrong? How would that > > affect Harry or the plot? > > > I've always thought Petunia would be the one to do magic "later in > life" but you've almost got me convinced it might be Vernon!! His > very late entry into the magic world would be quite stunning for > Harry & Co. One of my favorite scenes in OOTP is the point > where "....for the very first time in his life, Harry fully > appreciated that Aunt Petunia was his mother's sister." (P. 38) > Wonder if finding out Vernon has magical blood will also invite a > moment of understanding for Harry? > > Jen, still convinced Petunia's the one, but considering Vernon for > shock value Since JKR has taken great pains from Book One to present Uncle Vernon as the ultimate Muggle, even allowing us inside his head to present the Muggle tendency to deny the existence of anything that would hint at the magic he considers "unnatural," I really don't think it could be him. And if Vernon turns out to be the one who learns magic late in life, despite any inclination to do so, how can we trust anything JKR's narrator says? (I know we can't trust Harry's perspective, but the first chapter of SS/PS is not written from Harry's POV, and it clearly presents Vernon as a Muggle.) If it must be a Dursley who belatedly does a bit of magic, I'd rather it be Petunia, who at least has some experience of the WW (which she has forcibly suppressed for fifteen years or more). But my bet is still Mrs. Figg, who talks like a witch and sees Dementors and communicates with cats. (I don't usually go in for physical violence, but I loved the part where she hit Mundungus Fletcher with her bag full of catfood cans. I'm sure she would have hexed him instead if she'd had a wand.) Carol From clio44a at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 21:41:21 2004 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:41:21 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90566 Carol wrote: >First, I'm not sure that Harry's hatred for Snape is as deep as it >appears. Much of it is a child's or teenager's resentment of an >overly >strict authority figure. Snape is a convenient scapegoat, a target >for all the anger bottled up in Harry which can't be directed at the >real enemy, Voldemort. [snip] >I don't think that Harry, now that he's come >to terms with Dumbledore after resenting him through a whole 700-page >book, will continue to blame a man he knows to be Dumbledore's ally >and agent for killing Sirius. [snip] >If so, though he >probably won't admit to himself that he's blamed Snape unfairly, >he'll probably arrive at a more realistic perspective of the events >leading to Sirius's death. Even if he won't admit that he owes his >life to Snape, he should surely acknowledge that it was Snape who >sent the Order to rescue him and that Snape tried to prevent Sirius >from going to the MoM. Excellent analysis! Yet I doubt that Harry will have the same trust in Dumbledore as he has had before the events in OotP. Ddore has not outright lied to him, but held a few things back. And Ddore has proven himself to be fallible. Consequently Harry will not follow Ddore's lead anymore as easily as before. True, Dumbledore trusts Snape. But is he right? Others have (or had) their doubts in Snape being on the right side, namely Moody, Sirius and Ron (who probably echos an opinion he has heard at home). I somehow can't imagine Harry believing Ddore about Snape's loyalty. Note that the quote about Harry never forgiving Snape is from AFTER Harry's little chat with Ddore. Eventually Harry will of course come to the insight that Snape tried to save the day after he had rushed off to the MoM. I just can't see Harry realizing that overnight at Privet Drive, when he is alone with his anger. Some person (not Dumbledore!) or some event in book 6 must lead him to this insight, IMHO. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Alla wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: >> Clio, >> who thinks Harry is too young to be a second Ghandi yet. >Can I steal this phrase from you, please, pretty please? Yes, Harry >is entirely too young to be thinking about peaceful solutions only. Well, feel free to do so. >Yep, I think that Harry and Snape are bound to clash very seriously. >I think you convinced me that it could be physical violence, which >will end up with Harry being disgusted with himself. Again ;o) Nice to hear that my points seem to be convincing. : ) What I think would be interesting to hear from your perspective as a prime Harry apologist (which is not something bad in itself) is: would you say it would both Harry and Snape do good if something like this happened? Harry taking advantage of a position of power over Snape, I mean. And where do you think Harry was disgusted with himself so far? Alla wrote in another post: (in her little skirmish with Anne) >He [Snape] chose from the victim to become a bully. I want him to >stop the >cycle of hate first, not Harry. I don't want to reiterate your lively and interesting discussion about morals and who has to back down first. Let me just point out this - Snape has already stopped the 'cycle of hate' and has risen above his own revenge. After all we know after these 5 books he has stopped being a supporter of Voldemort and now works for the good guys. Even more: if he truely was the spy who warned the Order about the attack on the Potters, he, for whatever debatable reason, did not wish the death of his childhood enemy anymore. That means Snape has already proven that he has a conscience and is able to see the error of his ways. He learned from his mistakes. Did Harry make mistakes and learn from them? We are yet to see. Clio, who is very happy that Harry has developed in such a complex character that we can discuss his current state of mind and his moral standards. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 21:41:41 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:41:41 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90567 -> > Thanks, Geoff. The American editions don't show it. Is it online > > somewhere? > > > > Carol > > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/w_pl_hogwarts.html > I think this will help. > > Lliannashe Thanks very much. (I've used the Lexicon many times but don't remember that particular page.) Is that version of the crest identical to the one in the British editions? BTW, someone said that "nunquam" is an error for "numquam," but I looked it up and both spellings seem to be acceptable. (If it is an error, though, it might be the artist's rather than JKR's.) Carol From lovegrrl_in at hotmail.com Mon Feb 9 20:03:13 2004 From: lovegrrl_in at hotmail.com (lovegrrl) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:03:13 -0000 Subject: Canon support for the return of Sirius and other dead characters (?) References: <1076351292.6813.87867.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90568 >"Sawsan wrote: >> For a long while I was sincerely in doubt that we would ever see >> Sirius again in any form. I felt this because of JKR's confirming his >> death in an interview and the way she explained it it seemed final. > > > >Chris: >...by assuming that Sirius did not die from Bella's curse. There >is no mention in the book that it was AK, it just says a coloured jet >of light So while I believe James and Lily will not come back >in JKR's books, I like Saswan, believe that Sirius will return!! > > >Entropy: > >As we know, most of JKR's very specific details usually come back to >"haunt" us. :::lovegrrl::: I had thought in the past about JKR's 'very specific details' and I was thinking, Dumbledore says, something like, only the unhappiest people come back to us. but if we go back to the earlier books; PS we see both James and Lily in the Mirror of Erised and it is Lily's love that protects harry, CoS Tom Riddle appears, PoA Harry has memories of his parents brought on by the Dementors, his patronus takes the form of his dead father and Peter 'returns' from the grave, GoF Lily and James, among others, come back as 'ghosts'... and yet we are to believe that Sirius won't appear in some form in the future? I know it looks like I'm clucthing at straws and I do believe that Sirius is dead and I understand why. But to never see him again??? I think the series is as much about what has passed as it is about what will come. Harry's whole life is twisted up in a timewarp where events of the past imprint themselves on the present (as is shown by the opening chapter of book one, Tom Riddles diary, the Time Turner and Pettigrew's return to Voldemort) and because of this I'm not sure if I believe we won't see Sirius again or, at least, that he will have an effect on Harry's action. His death has already incited Harry to try to kill and even though Harry couldn't do it at the time who says he won't be able to do it in the future. Do you see what I mean? lovegrrl From kawfhw at earthlink.net Mon Feb 9 21:50:15 2004 From: kawfhw at earthlink.net (Ken and Faith Wallace) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:50:15 -0500 Subject: Updates Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90569 Does anyone know of a good website that updates on HP news. I want to be sure that I stay tuned to any news about the release of book six. Thanks. Faith __________ CRICHTON: Boy, was Spielberg ever wrong. Close Encounters my ass. Farscape, Premiere From amani at charter.net Mon Feb 9 21:53:39 2004 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:53:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unicorn horns References: Message-ID: <00b101c3ef57$2d21f820$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90570 Sylvia: > I may have just imagined it, as I can't find the reference, but I > have a feeling that unicorn horns were used for something or other > (potions, possibly). Perhaps I'm confusing it with unicorn hairs > being used in wands, together with things like dragon's heart- > strings. Do unicorns shed their horns or would there be any way of > obtaining a horn without killing the creature, which would be > unthinkable. I'm probably going off on a completely wild-goose chase > here but it's worrying me a bit. Can anyone help? Entropy: Don't know if this is what you're looking for, but: Book 1, The Forbidden Forest (pg. 258 US ed.) "Harry Potter, do you know what unicorn blood is used for?" "No," said Harry, startled by the odd question. "We've only used the horn and tail hair in Potions." "That is because it is a monstrous thing, to slay a unicorn," said Firenze. Taryn: Also, if you'd like another reference... While Hagrid asked the man behind the counter for a supply of some basic potion ingredients for Harry, Harry himself examined silver unicorn horns at twenty-one Galleons each and miniscule, glitter-black beetle eyes (five Knuts a scoop). [PS/SS, American paperback, pg. 81] So we do know that, however they get them, they /are/ available whole. I'd very much doubt they would kill the unicorns expressly for the horns, which I'm positive would be illegal, and in the quote I gave Harry and Hagrid were in a perfectly respectable Apothecary shop in Diagon Alley. A good question, at any rate. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clio44a at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 22:25:24 2004 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 22:25:24 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" > > > Now for a wild guess. Diary!Tom was destroyed when the diary was > > destroyed. > > The spirit of Salazar Slytherin will be destroyed when a certain > > something in the Chamber is destroyed. > > > > Expect a big show-down under Hogwarts! > > > > Kneasy > > Carolyn: > > Well, what else do you expect if you tickle a sleeping dragon ? Bet > Dumbledore knows exactly what's down there..can't remember the name > of the dragon under the Lonely Mountain (?Smorg?) but same archetype. [snip] > Dumbledore knows all this too, but also knows that if the dragon is > killed, not only will he die, but the source of Hogwart's magic will > disappear forever... [snip] > Next creaky installment of this totally unsupported theory coming > soon ... Mmh, interesting. A dragon in the mountain ... connected to the castle ... guarding whatever ... never tickle the sleeping dragon/sleeping magic... Isn't there a myth about a king trying to built a castle (Uther Pendragon, IIRC), but the walls of the castle won't hold because of the dragon in the mountain, that has been awaken? And Merlin realizes that? Dragons seem to be harmless in JKRs world. Can there be something like a metaphorical dragon? Slytherin's power itself, maybe? After all a mini-dragon is the symbol of Slytherin. And there was already the basilisk as a symbol of Slytherin's evilness. Btw, I believe the name of the dragon in the Lonely Mountain in The Hobbit is Smaug. Just thinking aloud, Clio From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Feb 9 22:32:45 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 22:32:45 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90572 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Carol; > Thanks very much. (I've used the Lexicon many times but don't remember > that particular page.) Is that version of the crest identical to the > one in the British editions? Geoff: Not quite. It's black & white without the banner at the top. From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 22:39:15 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 22:39:15 -0000 Subject: Riddle House Re: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" > wrote: > > > > I just have one question. Who owns the Riddle house? > > Sue > > Why, Lucius Malfoy of course! snip> > Jen, with her head full of conspiracy theories at the moment. I was asking the question in response to a post about the Potter money and the idea that they would have also been wealthy land owners. What if the Riddle house was actually, unbeknownst to him, owned by Harry himself? Earlier in this thread there was a reference to the fact that Harry could be due to receive an even larger sum of money (and possibly property) from the Potter estate when he is of age. Itjust made me very "curious". Sue From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Feb 9 22:42:49 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:42:49 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Updates Message-ID: <1c1.14cd343e.2d5966e9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90574 In a message dated 2/9/2004 5:09:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, kawfhw at earthlink.net writes: Does anyone know of a good website that updates on HP news. I want to be sure that I stay tuned to any news about the release of book six. Thanks. Faith ********************** Sherrie here: IMHO, your best bet would be to watch the websites for Bloomsbury (http://www.bloomsburymagazine.com/harrypotter/) and Scholastic (http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/home.asp). The publishers should have updated (and accurate!) information before anyone else! Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 22:49:42 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 22:49:42 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble (longer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90575 Big snip >But my bet is still Mrs. Figg, who talks like a witch and sees Dementors and > communicates with cats. (I don't usually go in for physical violence, > but I loved the part where she hit Mundungus Fletcher with her bag > full of catfood cans. I'm sure she would have hexed him instead if > she'd had a wand.) > > Carol My bet is on old "Figgy" as well. As she has obviously had the job of watching Harry for all of these years, she has probably developed quite a fondness for him. I would put my galleons on her finding the magic inside when faced with yet another attack on young Harry outside of the Dursley home. I imagine the next two summers being full of Harry running for the door/window of #4 to escape some evil doer. I'd still like to know what it is with squibs and cats. Sue, Who also counts among her favorite HP images that of Mrs. Figg walloping Mundungus Fletcher (what a name!) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 23:31:03 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 23:31:03 -0000 Subject: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90576 Here is JKR's two knutes: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2001/0301-comicrelief- staff.htm "Q: On the Hogwarts crest there is a motto written in Latin, what does it stand for? A: It means 'never tickle a sleeping dragon', good sound practical advice." and also: "Q: Why did you choose "never tickle a sleeping dragon" as your motto? A: Lots of schools have pointless mottos like 'reach for the stars' or 'persevere and endure;' I wanted something useful." Neri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 00:14:42 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:14:42 -0000 Subject: Riddle House Re: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" > > wrote: > > > > > > I just have one question. Who owns the Riddle house? > > > Sue > > > > Why, Lucius Malfoy of course! snip> > > Jen, >Suehpfan: > > I was asking the question in response to a post about the Potter > money and the idea that they would have also been wealthy land > owners. What if the Riddle house was actually, unbeknownst to him, > owned by Harry himself? > > Sue bboy_mn: I hadn't thought of that before, there is the question of what happened to the Potter's home when James' parents died. Was there an ancestral Potter estate/manor/mansion/house? If so, then where? As a side note, this in turn brings up the question of where the Potter's (all) are buried. Perhaps it's a cultural thing, but in the US, I think a visit to the family burial plot for some one like Harry would be a very very likely thing to happen. Perhaps, not so likely in Britian. Another side note, I would really like more information of Godric's Hollow. Were the Potter's just renting a place there or was this their ancestral home? Exactly, how bad was the place damaged? Was it, at some later point in time, totally demolished and removed? Was it ever rebuilt? Could it be rebuilt? Will it be rebuilt? For those who don't know real estate in Britain and especially around London is EXTREMELY expensive, so owning a house, especially a nice large house, represents a very substantial financial asset. When this issue of the Riddle house came up before many many moons ago, I speculated the either Lucius owned it on Voldemort's orders, or Dumbledore owned it because he knew it was tied to Voldemort, and would probably come in handy in the future. At that time, I speculated that when the war was over, Harry would be given the Riddle mansion as a reward, and as a place where he could begin a new forever Voldemort free life. But now that Sirius has died, I'm speculating that Harry will get the Black Mansion. that thought however, doesn't change my idea that either Malfoy or Dumbledore are in control of the Riddle mansion. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 10 00:41:18 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:41:18 -0000 Subject: Riddle House Re: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90578 snip>bboy_mn wrote: > Another side note, I would really like more information of Godric's > Hollow. Were the Potter's just renting a place there or was this their > ancestral home? Exactly, how bad was the place damaged? Was it, at > some later point in time, totally demolished and removed? Was it ever > rebuilt? Could it be rebuilt? Will it be rebuilt? > > snip > When this issue of the Riddle house came up before many many moons > ago, I speculated the either Lucius owned it on Voldemort's orders, or > Dumbledore owned it because he knew it was tied to Voldemort, and > would probably come in handy in the future. snip> > bboy_mn I think it is unlikely Dumbledore owns the Riddle house. If he did he would have been keeping track of the movement in and out of the house in case Voldy tried to use it. It is obvious he was at the very least paying attention to the newspapers around Little Hangleton because he knew Frank Brice had been killed (or at least died in the old house). I think it is of course very likely that Lucius owns the Riddle House or even Voldemort himself. It would be an interesting twist if one of the Potter's bought it with the intent of destroying it and was killed before they had the chance. I believe, I do not have the books handy, the house in Godrick's Hollow is refered to as a cottage. If that is the case, then any Potter "manner" would be in another location. It also makes sense that James would have moved away from the ancestral home because people would be more likely to know where it was. This brings up another question about the Fideleus Charm. If the charm is done on a location that many people know, does that mean they are no longer able to find it unless the secret keeper shows them where it is again? Would they return to the location only to find the home (or whatever) has simply vanished? Vexed by Fideleus and curious about these moldy old homes, Sue From cparnell at bigpond.net.au Tue Feb 10 01:18:49 2004 From: cparnell at bigpond.net.au (saieditor) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:18:49 -0000 Subject: New Clues and Sinking Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90579 Hi Everyone. I wandered over to Mugglenet to read the new clues, and something came to mind about sinking. Here is the quote >>>>> The toilet-related running-bits as explained above and listed twice, are presumably once again to point us towards bathrooms. A bathroom, particularly Moaning Myrtle's, seems to be the focus of these clues. Though sinking is also related to the Basilisk Point of this subplot, as pointed out above they could also mean sinking as in bathroom sinks with faucets. All variations of sink including sinking, sank, and sunk are interrelated. Notice that when a character does sink into something, it is usually a chair, throne, a seat, or any kind of variation which basically means toilet. We think J.K.R's intentions are not to gross us out with all this toilet humor, but to point us once again towards Moaning Myrtle's bathroom and the sink entrance to the Chamber! >>>>> In the Arthurian mythological cycle there is a chair, if you sit in it, you sink into it, never to be found again. It is a stone carved chair at the Round Table. This chair is called the Siege Perilous. saieditor From dianapalmer at mac.com Mon Feb 9 16:30:59 2004 From: dianapalmer at mac.com (gryffindor_nc) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:30:59 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90580 mrsbrooksathome wrote: > Here's a question that has always nagged at me: In the first book, > Hagrid tells Harry about his vault and all that good stuff, and on > numerou occasions throughout the series, Harry having more money > than Ron is an issue. Where did the money come from? Perhaps the wizarding world has life insurance. With both parents getting killed, Harry is sure to have inherited a fairly large payoff from the insurance company. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Feb 10 02:33:25 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:33:25 -0000 Subject: Fidelius, the Riddle House (Re: Where did the money...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > This brings up another question about the Fideleus Charm. If the > charm is done on a location that many people know, does that mean > they are no longer able to find it unless the secret keeper shows > them where it is again? Would they return to the location only to > find the home (or whatever) has simply vanished? > > Vexed by Fideleus and curious about these moldy old homes, > Sue Jen: Here's Flitwick's ambiguous quote on the Fidelius: "As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window." (POA, US, cahp. 10, p. 205). Initially I pictured this scene with LV pressing his nose against a window at Godric's Hollow, seeing no one inside. But wouldn't LV just magically destroy the house anyway, on the off-chance the Potters were all hiding in the bathroom or somewhere?!? So does You-Know-Who **feel** his nose is pressed to the glass or not?!? My guess is no, that the building would vanish to all but the Secret- Keeper and the occupants. Sort of like Hogwarts appears to Muggles, the actual structure is there, but spells/enchantments keep Muggles from finding it. From cowardly_heroic at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 20:19:33 2004 From: cowardly_heroic at yahoo.com (Patty Satjapot) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:19:33 -0600 Subject: Question about Hogwarts' tuition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90582 Hi everyone, sorry if this was discussed before. I was reading through the series, and I realized that I have never come across anywhere in the book where they mention tuition for Hogwarts and if some students were waived or how much the MoM funded Hogwarts and who were their sponsors, etc. I was wondering if anyone might have read somewhere in the books if they mentioned those things because I remember that Hagrid spoke to Harry in the first book about his gold in Gringotts for purchasing his equipment, but he didn't say anything about paying tuition. If it's not mentioned in the books, did JKR mention it anywhere? Patty From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 10 02:37:45 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:37:45 -0000 Subject: Could Lily have trained to be an Auror while Pregnant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: ...But Lily was pregnant and had a baby. Now I'm assuming the training program is very physical, like ...army boot camp. Could Lily have had the time and the ability to Auror train, work for the Order, and carry and have a baby?...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says If Auror training is like Army boot camp, Lily would not have been admitted if she were, or became, pregnant during the "boot camp" phase (sixteen weeks or so, depending on specialty.) However, once you reach your first duty station, it's case by case. I have known clerks who began to swoon as soon as they pulled the plug on the rabbit, and signallers who were climbing towers in the field at six months. Ballet dancers, who often show not much more than a slight convexity over the tutu skirt at six months, are famous for giving birth practically in the wings at intermission. Potions or duelling might be problematic, but if Lily's specialty was charms, arithmancy, runes or such, she could (if she were of sturdy English yeoman stock) give birth in the nurse's office during lunch and be back at her desk with the kid nursing in a sling in the afternoon. Nannies, wet-nurses, infant day care... It's very doable, and has been done. --JDR PS: Please, nobody flame me if your pregnancies were difficult. I also knew women who had to spend six months in bed to bring a pregnancy to term. From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 20:48:38 2004 From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:48:38 -0800 Subject: DD an animagus? References: Message-ID: <008701c3ef4e$193f9230$9701a8c0@odyssey.local> No: HPFGUIDX 90584 Berit: > If Harry noticed the wastebasket the first or second time, > I don't think anyone was hiding underneath it. I think > someone was sitting on it: An invisible Dumbledore :-). > By the way; the third time around Dumbledore revealed > himself sitting on top of one of the desks that were stored > along the wall as far as I recall. Still not conjuring up a > decent armchair, is he :-) Sarah: Harry saw the wastebasket on his initial visit. You're right, when Dumbledore finally reveals himself he's sitting on one of the desks. Seems like the desks were there all along, so the wastebasket is still a curiosity. Dumbledore slipped off the desk to sit on the floor with Harry. Are we meant to note this because Dumbledore is flexible for a hundred-and-fifty year old, because it shows his fondness for Harry (or that he doesn't consider himself above him) or an unknown third possibility? Perhaps I scrutinize this chapter too closely, but Jo seems to give it a lot of importance when she talks to readers and the press. Sarah From erikal at magma.ca Tue Feb 10 04:10:22 2004 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:10:22 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: <01f901c3ef8b$ce217e60$fca31a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 90585 A slightly delayed response but I wanted to add in my two knuts... Andrew wrote: > These just seem to be what I get while reading the books, and > it is my opinion alone. Does anyone agree or disagree, or have their > own theories? > Toad replied: >You're right, Andrew. It all comes >down to interpretation. And, In >my opinion, which pairing or person you >most identify with. Are you >more like Hermione, Ginny or Luna? >Would you rather be involved >with someone like Hermione, Ginny or >Luna? > >I'm an avid H/G shipper. I definitely >identify more with Ginny. *nods* I too have noticed this trend in shipping tendencies. I myself identify quite closely with Hermione and I ship H/H. To me pairing Hermione with Ron is just unthinkable. I don't relate to him at all as a character. I also have never enjoyed the arguing between Ron and Hermione. But lots of people do identify with Ron and those who ship R/H enjoy their bickering. I sometimes wonder if there is a preponderance of Ron fans on the R/H ship. Either way, I think most shippers are reading through tinted glass. We use canon to back our arguments, but the interpretation of any quote is still highly subjective. Toad continued: >And on occasion, I'm ashamed to admit >that I find myself twisting >canon to suit my shipping preferences. >I've also seen the R/H's and >H/H's doing the same thing. We could >go on and on (and we often do.) >That's why I normally avoid ship >debating. Raises my blood pressure >to boot. I like to think that when I use canon I'm not just twisting it suit my needs. The thing is that most quotes are quite malleable. They can mean more than one thing. It's true that some people go too far in attempting to argue their point; they ignore or dismiss alternate readings or impose a forced interpretation onto a quote. But it doesn't have to be that way. The important thing is to keep a cool head and an open mind. Shipping debate _can_ turn into a shipping war, but it doesn't have to; it can also be a discussion between people who are interested in tossing canon back and forth and as well as in learning more about the "opposing" ship. >So, in a lazy/cowardly fashion, I'm >just gonna write what >I see happening in canon and what I >want to happen without listing >the reasons why or quoting canon (am I >in for a slapping?): There's no harm in that :) I can only speak for myself, but I participate in shipping-related discussion because I enjoy it. I enjoy doing close readings of the text and I find it amazing how people from different ships can look at the same passages and read them in completely different ways. And I've also found others who are open-minded and interested in _discussing_ their points of view rather than trying to impose them on me or anyone else. Just my two knuts of the shipping issue. Best, Erika (Wolfraven) For friendly shipping discussion join us at The Great Debate http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGreatDebate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Feb 10 00:51:20 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:51:20 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from?/teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90586 Carol wrote: A job that doesn't pay well? How about teaching? Snape isn't rich despite his (presumed) pureblood status. Which makes me wonder--what if James was the DADA teacher and his death started the jinx on that position? That would put a new twist on Snape's quest for the DADA post--and on his resentment of James, as well. Potioncat here: Carol, you come up with the kind of ideas that leave me thinking "Why didn't I think of that!" How about this theory? James and Lily Potter are teachers at Hogwarts. Both of them are killed and now there are two openings: DADA and Potions. Snape needs a safe place and a job, so Dumbledore hires him for potions. It does seem he was hired after their deaths although that isn't certain. It would explain why Professor McGonagall refers to them as James and Lily (I always thought she was referring to adults she knew, not students she remembered) and might be why Hagrid recalls them as such nice people. For that matter it could have just been James who was the teacher and some other teacher was killed as well...since there seems to have been 2 openings when Snape started teaching. Although it would seem if they were teachers, living at Hogwarts would have been safer than Godric's Hollow. As for the jinx, I always thought that started with Quirrell's death. We're told somewhere that he had held the job for several years (4?)but each one after him only lasted a year. Potioncat From mrsbrooksathome at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 02:11:56 2004 From: mrsbrooksathome at yahoo.com (mrsbrooksathome) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:11:56 -0000 Subject: Lineage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90587 I would really be interested in knowing Harry's geneology. Does anyone happen to know anything about it? I recall someone saying that Lily was a mudblood... so which side was her magical parentage on? And was James a pureblood? I seem to think he was, but I can't seem to remember whether or not this is actually supported by any actual evidence. Steph From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 03:47:58 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 03:47:58 -0000 Subject: Question about Hogwarts' tuition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90588 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Patty Satjapot" wrote: > Hi everyone, sorry if this was discussed before. I was reading through the > series, and I realized that I have never come across anywhere in the book > where they mention tuition for Hogwarts and if some students were waived or > how much the MoM funded Hogwarts and who were their sponsors, etc. I was > wondering if anyone might have read somewhere in the books if they mentioned > those things because I remember that Hagrid spoke to Harry in the first book > about his gold in Gringotts for purchasing his equipment, but he didn't say > anything about paying tuition. If it's not mentioned in the books, did JKR > mention it anywhere? > > Patty You know, I was wondering this while doing a reread of CoS. If poor abandoned orphan Tom Riddle could afford to go, then I would assume that there is some sort of scholarship program, and perhaps even governmental financial aid for those who cannot afford all the costs. The Weasleys, for example: Arthur, as a government employee, could probably recieve some sort of financial aid. (I know that here in the US federal employees families are eligible for special scholarships: my aunt is a postal worker and both my sister and I have applied through her for grants from the federal government. We also recieve state aid, if we qualify based on how much our parents make.) There must be some sort of aid to continuing students as well. Sirius ran away from home at 16, so someone had to pay his seventh year bills (I amuse myself here with a thought of Sirius paying back his student loans.) As to how Harry pays his bills, I would assume that there is special access granted to his vault at Gringotts, though what that access is I don't know. There must be some sort of direct deposit system that transfers funds, like a WW Western Union, as we have seen nothing of wizard credit cards or checks. But to move slightly off topic, there seems to me to be a lot of unanswered questions about the operation of Gringotts. For example, how did McGonogal get the money from Harry's vault to buy his Numbus 2000? How dod Sirius, a convicted killer, access his account to buy Harry's Firebolt? Who regulates the vault keys? Any thoughts, cause I have no idea. . Meri - who goes back to lurkdom with joyous thoughts of Arthur Weasley trying (and failing) to balance a checkbook From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 10 04:33:24 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 04:33:24 -0000 Subject: Question about Hogwarts' tuition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90589 snip As to how Harry pays his bills, I > would assume that there is special access granted to his vault at > Gringotts, though what that access is I don't know. There must be > some sort of direct deposit system that transfers funds, like a WW > Western Union, as we have seen nothing of wizard credit cards or > checks. But to move slightly off topic, there seems to me to be a > lot of unanswered questions about the operation of Gringotts. more snipping> Meri - who goes back to lurkdom with joyous thoughts of Arthur > Weasley trying (and failing) to balance a checkbook I have often wondered about this as well. In PS/SS Harry comments that he doesn't think the Dursley's hatred of anything magical would stop them from invading his vault. The Dursley's (well, Vernon) have said on many occaisions that caring for Harry was a great financial burden. Wouldn't it just be typical if we find out in the end that the Dursley's were given a large sum of money upfront, or monthly payments to care for Harry? And even that the money that has been provided for his care was spent instead on Dudley? We know they will lie, would they also steal? Every time I think of these types of things, I wonder more and more about Petunia. I have believed, since the begining, she will turn out to be more of an ally than Harry ever imagined. Not because she has done such a great job of caring for him but because she has the information he needs and will soon provide. Perhaps she will also shed some light on the financial provisions made for Harry and if there were some where they went. Sue, who cannot imagine putting her nephew in the cupboard. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 04:39:30 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 04:39:30 -0000 Subject: Lineage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mrsbrooksathome" wrote: > I would really be interested in knowing Harry's geneology. Does > anyone happen to know anything about it? I recall someone saying > that Lily was a mudblood... so which side was her magical parentage > on? And was James a pureblood? I seem to think he was, but I can't > seem to remember whether or not this is actually supported by any > actual evidence. > > Steph Lily is a Muggle-born, so there wouldn't be any *known* wizarding heritage on either side. But because of the appearance of Mark Evans in OoP (an apparent Muggle but just the right age to come to Hogwarts next year if he, too, turns out to be a Muggle-born with Magical powers), I think that a few generations back there must have been a wizard or witch in the Evans line, maybe with Squib children who passed as Muggles, married Muggles, and produced Muggle children, so that even Dumbledore doesn't know about Lily's and Mark's magical ancestor (who would also, of course, be Harry's, Petunia's, and Dudley's ancestor). As for James, he wasn't a Muggle-born so his parents must have been a witch and a wizard. And since there's no evidence that either of his parents was Muggle-born, so he was probably a pure-blood (or at any rate a full-blood, if you make that distinction). As his parents seem to have been wealthy (JKR says that James's money was inherited), I'm guessing that yes, James was a pureblood. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 04:56:02 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 04:56:02 -0000 Subject: Question about Hogwarts' tuition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90591 "Patty Satjapot" wrote: > Hi everyone, sorry if this was discussed before. I was reading through the > series, and I realized that I have never come across anywhere in the book > where they mention tuition for Hogwarts and if some students were waived or > how much the MoM funded Hogwarts and who were their sponsors, etc. I was > wondering if anyone might have read somewhere in the books if they mentioned > those things because I remember that Hagrid spoke to Harry in the first book > about his gold in Gringotts for purchasing his equipment, but he didn't say > anything about paying tuition. If it's not mentioned in the books, did JKR > mention it anywhere? I don't recall any mention of tuition in the books. The Weasleys can barely afford to buy books and school supplies; IMO tuition for eight children (or for the six who were born fairly close together) would be impossible. But Hogwarts wouldn't require much money for its upkeep. Repairs can be performed magically, the House Elves work for nothing, there are no utility bills to pay, and the teachers' salaries are presumably modest (they receive room and board and Snape, McGonagall, et al. have enough money to buy dress robes, but they wouldn't have many other expenses. I'm guessing that the teachers provide the supplies they need for their classrooms (grindylows or potion ingredients or whatever) out of their own pockets (though Trelawney's crystal balls may have been around since the school was built). Maybe the Ministry of Magic provides just enough money to keep the school going--a scary thought as that might seem to justify more Umbridge-style intervention. I doubt that Dumbledore does. But someone has to pay for the food that the House Elves prepare--food conjured out of nothing returns to nothing, like leprechaun gold. Maybe the students whose parents can afford it (or are willing to pay it?) are charged tuition, but then the Weasleys would never hear the end of it from Malfoy. Sorry to go around in circles here, but I don't see a clearcut answer. Carol From ybmagpye at comcast.net Mon Feb 9 20:25:04 2004 From: ybmagpye at comcast.net (Claire) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:25:04 -0800 Subject: Unicorn horns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90592 Sylvia: > >But I'm still puzzled as to how they obtain the unicorn's horn > >without harming the animal. Do unicorns shed their horns? Or are the > >horns removed after the creature has died naturally? I imagine > >unicorns must be pretty rare, even in the WW so how do they obtain > >sufficient horns for school-children to use in potion making? Nice question... Antlers are shed (James Potter's if a garden variety stag, and not an animagus or Patronus, would shed his antlers once a year). Horn is NOT shed, and Unicorns have Horns. As I recall, horns can continue growing and if worn out, they will continue adding materials from the base of the horn. So.... anyhoo, perhaps if a unicorn's horn is cut off, it can regrow a new one. Now of course being magical, perhaps Unicorns do break the rules and shed their horns although perhaps they do so when they fell like doing so. Otherwise what is the point of being magical? Alice From flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com Tue Feb 10 03:31:49 2004 From: flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com (Diana Walter) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 03:31:49 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from?/teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90593 > Carol wrote: > A job that doesn't pay well? How about teaching? Potioncat wrote: > How about this theory? James and Lily Potter are teachers at > Hogwarts. Both of them are killed and now there are two openings: > DADA and Potions. Snape needs a safe place and a job, so Dumbledore > hires him for potions. More support for this idea (which I really, really like): James and Lily could have been some of those married Hogwarts faculty JKR won't talk about. --daw From alina at distantplace.net Tue Feb 10 06:41:09 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:41:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lineage References: Message-ID: <000d01c3efa0$de5c42a0$a6a09c18@cr390913a> No: HPFGUIDX 90594 > I would really be interested in knowing Harry's geneology. Does > anyone happen to know anything about it? I recall someone saying > that Lily was a mudblood... so which side was her magical parentage > on? And was James a pureblood? I seem to think he was, but I can't > seem to remember whether or not this is actually supported by any > actual evidence. > > Steph I believe Aunt Petunia's words from book 1 about her and Lily's parents: "They were proud to have a witch in the family," as well as her own attitude towards the magic word has made it a canon belief that Lily was a muggle-born witch and has no magical parentage at all. I think it is also generally believed that James is a pureblood, and I think that Snape's memory where he calls Lily a mudblood but doesn't call James one would support that, I can't remember any other quotes at the moment. Alina. From alina at distantplace.net Tue Feb 10 06:43:15 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:43:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where did the money come from?/teachers References: Message-ID: <001901c3efa1$37171aa0$a6a09c18@cr390913a> No: HPFGUIDX 90595 > > Carol wrote: > > A job that doesn't pay well? How about teaching? > Potioncat wrote: > > How about this theory? James and Lily Potter are teachers at > > Hogwarts. Both of them are killed and now there are two openings: > > DADA and Potions. Snape needs a safe place and a job, so > Dumbledore > > hires him for potions. > > More support for this idea (which I really, really like): James and > Lily could have been some of those married Hogwarts faculty JKR > won't talk about. --daw > The only real thing that doesn't fit for me is DADA and Potions. From what we know, James excelled at Transfiguration and Lily as Charms. However, those pieces of information could be misleading, but I don't think so, not unless Olivander lied... Alina. From Tigerstormxx at aol.com Mon Feb 9 21:23:40 2004 From: Tigerstormxx at aol.com (james320152002) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:23:40 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90596 Carol: > The only killing spell that Harry knows is an Unforgivable Curse > that requires either intense hatred or a cold indifference to > murder to make it work. Either use will corrupt the soul. > > Harry, IMO, must not learn to use the Unforgivable Curses, which > are the weapons of the enemy. They are not only illegal (unless > the Ministry of Magic gives him special permission to use them and > that seems most unlikely), they are Unforgivable. I understand your point of view on this but after all the death and pain Lord Voldemort has caused who would blame Harry for taking the easy way out, just using the Avada Kedavra could end this war. With all the pain that Voldemort has caused Harry, I am sure he could muster up the anger to destroy him for good. "james320152002" From TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com Tue Feb 10 03:31:20 2004 From: TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com (TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:31:20 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lineage Message-ID: <8c.2f8e1d0.2d59aa88@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90597 Steph: > I would really be interested in knowing Harry's geneology. Does > anyone happen to know anything about it? I recall someone saying > that Lily was a mudblood... so which side was her magical parentage > on? And was James a pureblood? I seem to think he was, but I can't > seem to remember whether or not this is actually supported by any > actual evidence. > I seem to remember that nothing has really been said about his lineage on either side. There are some people who speculate that Lily and Petunia's parents were squibs, which is why they were so happy that Lily turned out to be a witch. That's an interesting idea. TrixieCookie2326 From Tigerstormxx at aol.com Mon Feb 9 21:28:58 2004 From: Tigerstormxx at aol.com (james320152002) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:28:58 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90598 LizVega here: > JKR said in an interview that James inherited the money and that > HE DIDN'T HAVE TO HAVE A WELL PAYING JOB- so maybe they didn't work > at all? > > If the timelines are correct, then it would've been very time > consuming to work for the order, get married, have the baby, and > do anything else in that amount of time. > > If I inherited a lot of money, and took into account the conditions > I was living through ie Voldemort, I probably wouldn't work either. > > I think it's interesting that Jo said that James didn't have to > have a well paying job- it makes me start thinking about all of the > jobs that we know of that aren't well paying. Who's poor? Interesting theory; I never thought about that. But I was always under the impression that James's family just had money. When Harry was in Snape's memory James reminded me a bit of Draco - a spoiled rich kid. Not that his character is like Draco or the Malfoys. It seems we would know if James or Lily were Aurors so I just figured they didn't work and just devoted all their time to the order. "james320152002" From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Tue Feb 10 05:22:38 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 05:22:38 -0000 Subject: Going to Hogwarts. ( Was: Question about Hogwarts' tuition) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90599 I was wondering about the tuition myself. The main thing that worried me was how is someone who has no money going to attend, but then Tom Riddle answered that by at least showing that it can be done. But there is something else that I wonder, though I am sure that I am not supposed to think this thought while reading : What if there is a child who is a witch or wizard, but is not allowed to go to Hogwarts, or any other wizarding school? Like, for instance, what if Dudley got his invite? We know with Harry that it was a special circumstance he was taken against his gaurdians' wills. But what if a parent just said no way!! You can't take my kid!! At first, I thought, that's silly they just won't have to go. But imagine all the trouble that child could get into if they were untrained, the MoM would have to be modifying so many memories and fixing things that child might have messed up unintentionally. I know that we won't have any canon on this point, but it interests me all the same to see what you guys think. Sawsan From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 07:19:47 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:19:47 -0000 Subject: Question about Hogwarts' tuition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Patty Satjapot" wrote: > ... I realized that I have never come across anywhere in the book > where they mention tuition for Hogwarts .... ...edited... Hagrid spoke > to Harry in the first book about his gold in Gringotts for purchasing > his equipment, but he didn't say anything about paying tuition. > > If it's not mentioned in the books, did JKR mention it anywhere? > > Patty bboy_mn: To my knowledge JKR has never specifically addressed this issue. I has however been discussed here, and I will give you the short (hopefully) version of my views. I believe that Hogwarts is tuition free. Initially, the four founders of the school provided a large endowment that was to be used to run the school. Most endowments like this, whether in the real world or persumably the magic world, are invested and as much as possible money from the return on investments is used to pay daily operating expenses. It's seems reasonable to assume that part of the job of Headmaster, as well as the Board of Governors, is to manage the Hogwarts School Endowment. I had it all calculated out once, but even a small endowment compounded over 1,000 years at a very tiny percent of interest, added up to a very substantial amount of money. In addition, I believe the school is supported by donations from Alumni, and other benefactors such as wealthy businessmen who need well trained wizards as employees, inheritance from the estate of dead alumni, etc.... This is very much the way many univesities and colleges get a large potion of their funding today. I also speculate that the Hogwarts Board of Governors are the twelve people who have donated the most money to the school. Since the school runs on their money, they are given some say in how it is operated and how that money is managed. Some of these seats could be inherited. For example, if the estate of a family gave an extremely large endowment to the school, then subsequent generations would continue to hold that seat on the Board. If a new benefactor came along, and donated a substantial amount, then he would be allowed to take the place of the Board member whose previous donations were the smallest. Given Lucius Malfoy's inclination to give large donations to causes and people who can provide him with power, prestige, and influence, it's reasonable to assume a large donation bought him his seat on the Board of Governors. As others pointed out, in slightly different words, Hogarts is a land grand university, the land and buildings were donated to the school by the founders, so that represents as substantial asset. Combine that with a large cash endowment, and a history of reasonably honest headmaster and governors, and the endowment could have increased nicely to keep up with inflation as well as growing in relative value. The largest routine expenses are probably food and staff salaries, and while that's not exactly small, it wouldn't be a huge drain on their resources, assuming they have substantial resources to start with. Well, I certainly can't prove any of this, but it's not that far from the way most colleges and universities receive money, so I think it fits in very nicely with Hogwarts. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 07:32:48 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:32:48 -0000 Subject: Dursley's and Money (was:... Hogwarts' tuition) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > > ...edite... > The Dursley's ... have said on many occaisions that > caring for Harry was a great financial burden. Wouldn't it just > be typical if we find out in the end that the Dursley's were given > a large sum of money upfront, or monthly payments to care for Harry? > And even that the money that has been provided for his care was > spent instead on Dudley? We know they will lie, would they also > steal? > bboy_mn: Well, it wouldn't exactly be stealing since they were given the money to take care of Harry, it would be their money, and they could argue that Harry had all the necessities of life. Given their generosity in taking Harry in, as well as factoring in the potential danger, I'm sure the Dursleys didn't feel Harry really needed any 'luxuries'. I too have considered the possibility that the Dursleys may have received some pay up front or in installments, or some promise of pay in the future; perhaps, when Harry comes of age. The most delicious part of this idea is Harry's reaction when he finally finds out. I can't wait to read that scene. > Sue continues: > > Every time I think of these types of things, I wonder more and more > about Petunia. I have believed, since the begining, she will turn > out to be more of an ally than Harry ever imagined. ...edited... > > Sue bboy_mn: Under normal routine day-in-day-out circumstances Petunia is a Dursley to the core, as muggle as muggle can be, but the current circumstances are anything but normal, and I am inclined to agree with you, when the chips are down, and push comes to shove, Petunia will prove to us all that she really is an Evans more than a Dursley. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 10 09:20:12 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:20:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <01f901c3ef8b$ce217e60$fca31a40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20040210092012.14805.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90602 "Erika L." wrote: Toad replied: >You're right, Andrew. It all comes >down to interpretation. And, In >my opinion, which pairing or person you >most identify with. Are you >more like Hermione, Ginny or Luna? >Would you rather be involved >with someone like Hermione, Ginny or >Luna? > >I'm an avid H/G shipper. I definitely >identify more with Ginny. *nods* I too have noticed this trend in shipping tendencies. I myself identify quite closely with Hermione and I ship H/H. To me pairing Hermione with Ron is just unthinkable. I don't relate to him at all as a character. I also have never enjoyed the arguing between Ron and Hermione. But lots of people do identify with Ron and those who ship R/H enjoy their bickering. I sometimes wonder if there is a preponderance of Ron fans on the R/H ship. Either way, I think most shippers are reading through tinted glass. We use canon to back our arguments, but the interpretation of any quote is still highly subjective. I like to think that when I use canon I'm not just twisting it suit my needs. The thing is that most quotes are quite malleable. They can mean more than one thing. It's true that some people go too far in attempting to argue their point; they ignore or dismiss alternate readings or impose a forced interpretation onto a quote. But it doesn't have to be that way. The important thing is to keep a cool head and an open mind. Shipping debate _can_ turn into a shipping war, but it doesn't have to; it can also be a discussion between people who are interested in tossing canon back and forth and as well as in learning more about the "opposing" ship. Udder_P_D here I wonder if a lot of fans Ship H/G and R/Hr as a neat package. IMO Ron had no respect for Hermione's views and I cannot see the basis of a lasting relationship in their interaction. Ron rate physical top of his attraction list and Hermione is very much take me as you find me. Molly, Ron and probably Ginny would like to ship Harry with Ginny but IMO he not only needs Hermione as a strong partner but he has total respect for her as a girl and as an individual. A very good basis for a lasting relationship. Just my two P's worth Udder Pendragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save ?80 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue Feb 10 10:10:38 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:10:38 -0000 Subject: Question about Hogwarts' tuition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90603 "Patty Satjapot" wrote: > > Hi everyone, sorry if this was discussed before. I was reading > through the series, and I realized that I have never come across anywhere in the book where they mention tuition for Hogwarts and if some students were waived or how much the MoM funded Hogwarts and who were their sponsors, etc. > I was wondering if anyone might have read somewhere in the books if they mentioned those things because I remember that Hagrid spoke to Harry in the first book about his gold in Gringotts for purchasing his equipment, but he didn't say anything about paying tuition. If it's not mentioned in the books, did JKR mention it anywhere? > JustCarol responded: > >>> But Hogwarts wouldn't require much money for its upkeep. Repairs can be performed magically, the House Elves work for nothing, there are no utility bills to pay, and the teachers' salaries are presumably modest (they receive room and board and Snape, McGonagall, et al. have enough money to buy dress robes, but they wouldn't have many other expenses. But someone has to pay for the food that the House Elves prepare-- food conjured out of nothing returns to nothing, like leprechaun gold. Maybe the students whose parents can afford it (or are willing to pay it?) are charged tuition, but then the Weasleys would never hear the end of it from Malfoy.<<< Ali replies:- This topic has come up many times before, and opinions are always very divided - because there is no canon proof. I always wonder though, why people assume that tuition fees must be paid? To me, it seems to go against the policy of allowing all those with magical ability to attend, if it is then dependant on parental income. Surely, the dangers of not training up magical children, the dangers of exposure and magical accident etc, would mean that the MoM was under more than a moral obligation to train them. Not training them would risk exposure of their secret world. If we have state funded schools in the Muggle World, why shouldn't the Wizarding World? For a world that seems to have such a well- formed bureaucracy, it does not seem to be a stretch to assume that they might have taxation, and the ability to pay teachers and the upkeep of Hogwarts. JKR has said that there is a magic quill at Hogwarts which writes down the names of magical children when they are born. They are later written to and invited to attend Hogwarts. I believe that this invitation rests on ability to do magic and not ability to pay. Other listees have developed theories of scholarships for poorer students like the Weasleys and Tom Riddle. The idea of Hogwarts being a Foundation school has also been mooted, and I suppose I can see this argument working. If the 4 founders set up the school with a large legacy, perhaps supported by yields from Hogwarts-owned farms, or the like, then it is possible that little further income would be required, even now. The MoM could provide any shortfall. Again though, there is no evidence for this theory. But the idea of foundation schools is well-rooted in British History. In some ways, the Hogwarts Founders were far ahead of their Muggle counterparts. Magical training for all; Boys and Girls. Britain has had compulsory education for little over a hundred years. As you might have gathered, I do not believe that Hogwarts charges tuition fees. I tend to assume that all magical children are given the chance to go to Hogwarts - whether their parents like it or not. I'll make an exception for Dudley though, who I still maintain is a good candidate for the finding magic later in life. I think it perfectly possible, that Dumbledore in ensuring Harry's future, would have traded off any rights Dudley might have had to a magical education. But, that idea is in previous posts. Ali (Who is still chewing over the idea of Vernon as the one with magical ability - although, that would only seem to work with the use of "Mimble Wimble" if he actually knew he had magical ability and knew the spell. It would seem a funny phrase for even a frightened Vernon, to say by accident.) From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 10 10:19:15 2004 From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:19:15 -0000 Subject: Le Guin's Potter bashing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90604 Another great author joins the ranks of those who don't get the fuss about HP. In The Guardian on Monday February 9 Ursula LeGuin wrote: Question: Nicholas Lezard has written 'Rowling can type, but Le Guin can write.' What do you make of this comment in the light of the phenomenal success of the Potter books? I'd like to hear your opinion of JK Rowling's writing style Answer: I have no great opinion of it. When so many adult critics were carrying on about the "incredible originality" of the first Harry Potter book, I read it to find out what the fuss was about, and remained somewhat puzzled; it seemed a lively kid's fantasy crossed with a "school novel", good fare for its age group, but stylistically ordinary, imaginatively derivative, and ethically rather mean-spirited. http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/sciencefiction/story/0,6000,1 144428,00.html http://tinyurl.com/23hjb Cheers, Dumbledad From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 10 10:47:34 2004 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:47:34 -0000 Subject: Dursley's and Money (was:... Hogwarts' tuition) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > > > > ...edite... > > The Dursley's ... have said on many occaisions that > > caring for Harry was a great financial burden. Wouldn't it just > > be typical if we find out in the end that the Dursley's were given > > a large sum of money upfront, or monthly payments to care for Harry? > > And even that the money that has been provided for his care was > > spent instead on Dudley? We know they will lie, would they also > > steal? > > > > bboy_mn: > > Well, it wouldn't exactly be stealing since they were given the money > to take care of Harry, it would be their money, and they could argue > that Harry had all the necessities of life. Given their generosity in > taking Harry in, as well as factoring in the potential danger, I'm > sure the Dursleys didn't feel Harry really needed any 'luxuries'. Alshain says: I understood Sue to mean that the monthly payments were supposed to specifically provide for Harry. It might not be outright theft if the Dursleys provided Harry with a bare minimum and spent the surplus on Dudley, but it'd be fraud at the very least. Alshain From belijako at online.no Tue Feb 10 12:21:18 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:21:18 -0000 Subject: Jinxed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90606 It seems like a lot of the posters here take it for granted that the DADA job at Hogwarts is jinxed. I can't see how anyone can possibly arrive at such a conclusion. The HP books imply quite strongly that this is a *rumour* that has been started. A rumour based on the fact that the last four years, no DADA teacher has lasted more than a year. This is clearly an attempt by students and others to try to explain what is going on. A classical example of what happens when people don't know or understand what is happening. And when people can't understand or don't see the logic in something, they invent supernatural or "magical" reasons. Ignorance leads to superstition. If we were to look at each and every instance, we'll discover that they all had perfectly natural causes: (Quirrel died, but doesn't count since he lasted more than a year). Lockhart regrettably damaged his memory and therefore ended up (even more) useless as a teacher. Who's to blame? A jinx? No, those were the results of his own actions. Lupin didn't last a whole year. Because of a jinx? A better explanation would be the "occupational hazard of being a werewolf". Impostor!Mad-Eye Moody? Again: Him not lasting more than a year as a Hogwarts teacher was solely due to his own actions, not some mysterious jinx. Umbridge? Needless to say; she is also solely responsible herself for not lasting more than a year! These DADA teachers (with the possible exception of Lupin who of course can't help he's a werewolf) had to take the consequences of their own choices and actions. It's quite lame in my opinion to let a jinx excuse their bad choices in life. I'm not saying there aren't any jinxes around in the magical world; just that there is no canon evidence suggesting the DADA job is jinxed. It's just a rumour. Plain old superstition. What we read in the books is "they're saying it's jinxed". We don't see Dumbledore or the staff walking around trying to solve any jinx-puzzle. As far as I recall, we don't see the staff spreading this rumour at all (Hagrid comments on the rumour, but doesn't support it or back it up; he just states that there is a rumour goung around). Only the students do (and maybe the Daily Prophet?). It would certainly be in DD's interest to break that jinx. If it existed. After all; DADA teachers are killed, having their memories destroyed, thrown out because of prejudices, turning evil and plotting to deliver the boy who lived to Voldemort, and turning so cynical they're willing to use any means to reach their goals. If all this was due to ONE cause, a jinx, shouldn't DD be using more of his time to find and stop this serious threat to not only his DADA teachers, but to Hogwarts and its students? Compare the rumour of the DADA jinx with the rumour of the existence of a secret chamber. DD and the staff took it very seriously indeed when the old tale and rumour of the secret chamber and its monster was backed up by "evidence": The petrifications of cats, ghosts and students. Likewise DD has had plenty of "evidence" for the DADA job being jinxed; after all, none of the last four teachers has lasted more than a year, and terrible things have happened to them. But funnily enough there is no uproar, no fervent investigation on the jinx-issue... Could it be because DD understands and knows that the jinx-rumour is just that: A rumour? I rest my case :-) Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From rredordead at aol.com Tue Feb 10 14:50:35 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:50:35 -0000 Subject: Updates In-Reply-To: <1c1.14cd343e.2d5966e9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90608 > kawfhw at e... writes: > Does anyone know of a good website that updates on HP news. I want to be sure that I stay tuned to any news about the release of book six. Thanks. > Sherrie here: > IMHO, your best bet would be to watch the websites for Bloomsbury > (http://www.bloomsburymagazine.com/harrypotter/) and Scholastic > (http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/home.asp). The publishers should have updated (and accurate!) > information before anyone else! Mandy here: Both sites Sherrie recomended are excelent and lean toward book news. If you want news on everything else like the film and all that relates to them, book mark both: Muggle.net at http://www.mugglenet.com/ The Leaky Cauldron at http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ Mandy From philstar22 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 10 08:15:13 2004 From: philstar22 at hotmail.com (ruth harper) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:15:13 +0800 Subject: Riddle House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90609 Sue wrote: > I just have one question. Who owns the Riddle house? I was under the impression that it was owned by Voldemort's father and grandparents. Did it not mention in GOF that those three were killed there? If all the muggles were afraid to go there, then why would anyone else have to own it. It was kept up by Frank. From SnapesRaven at web.de Tue Feb 10 10:49:17 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:49:17 +0100 Subject: Animagi reproducing? Message-ID: <001701c3efc3$88b3c5d0$654dbfd5@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 90610 Good morning! Don't ask why, but a somehow curious thought has entered my mind... Are animagi, while in their animal form, able to reproduce? If so, there are even more questions occurring... a) Would an animagus pregnancy require remaining in the animal form during the whole period? a.1) How long whould this period be? The time the kind of animal would take to deliver a cub/whatever or the human span of ~9 months? a.2) Would the child of two animagi become one as well, or is it still necessary to learn how to change? b) Do animagi maintain their human gender? I mean, do men always change into male animals, and women vice versa? I don't intend to imply any animagus pairings here... I just wonder. Of course, it would have been very interesting had both lily and James been animagi, and become the same kind of animal. But as I don't know if wizards are able to determine which kind of animal they become (although I know that Snuffles was apparently a male dog) this is just a thoughtplay. I was under the impression that - as does Peter - living as an animal can keep animagi safe for many years. So I thought maybe an animagus pregnancy/perhaps even childhood could be safer in times of war. Could it have been a possibility for Lily and James to stay alive or at least hide animal!baby Harry from LV? Please, tell me what you think! : ) SnapesRaven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From CoyotesChild at charter.net Tue Feb 10 15:29:18 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:29:18 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unicorn horns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c3efea$a8f685e0$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 90611 > Sylvia: > > >But I'm still puzzled as to how they obtain the unicorn's horn > > >without harming the animal. Do unicorns shed their horns? Or are the > > >horns removed after the creature has died naturally? I imagine > > >unicorns must be pretty rare, even in the WW so how do they obtain > > >sufficient horns for school-children to use in potion making? > > > Nice question... Antlers are shed (James Potter's if a garden variety > stag, and not an animagus or Patronus, would shed his antlers once a > year). > > Horn is NOT shed, and Unicorns have Horns. As I recall, horns can continue > growing and if worn out, they will continue adding materials from the base > of the horn. So.... anyhoo, perhaps if a unicorn's horn is cut off, it can > regrow a new one. > > Now of course being magical, perhaps Unicorns do break the rules and shed > their horns although perhaps they do so when they fell like doing so. > Otherwise what is the point of being magical? > > Alice Iggy here: Also, nobody said that they use the entire horn. Looking through the Forbidden Forest, you might find splinters of horn that have come off when they were sharpening their horns or in fights, or even larger chunks broken off in fights, challenges for dominance of the herd, etc... You probably just have to know where to look. Some people, like Hagrid, may even be able to get the unicorn to let them "harvest" some of their horn material. (Shaving a little off the sides and end will allow the horn to retain its defensive and magical abilities, and will also help keep the horn from getting so large as to be troublesome... like a stag who's antlers have grown too large to allow it to easily make it through thick foliage.) Just my two centaur's worth. Iggy McSnurd From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Feb 10 15:59:03 2004 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:59:03 -0000 Subject: Question about Hogwarts' tuition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote in post #90603: Ali replies:- > (Who is still chewing over the idea of Vernon as the one with > magical ability - although, that would only seem to work with the > use of "Mimble Wimble" if he actually knew he had magical ability > and knew the spell. It would seem a funny phrase for even a > frightened Vernon, to say by accident.) Bohcoo' thoughts: Hi Ali! I assumed that Vernon's use of "Mimble Wimble" was because he and Petunia had discussed some of the things she knew about the WW at some point in their relationship, but most certainly after baby Harry landed on their doorstep. So, it makes sense to me that Vernon would have some knowledge of the WW from Petunia, no matter how desperately they both tried to pretend it did not exist. Just as he mangled other WW words and phrases (my favorites being his take on the word, "Dementors"), of course he would slaughter anything else he tried to discuss. I don't think Vernon is one speck magical, but feel good old Squib Petunia is going to knock his SOCKS off with some 11th-hour magic -- perhaps to save Dudley's life later on -- something that would really rub Vernon's nay-saying nose in it. (Heh, couldn't resist bringing socks into it....) Grins, Bohcoo From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Feb 10 16:31:32 2004 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:31:32 -0000 Subject: Question about Hogwarts' tuition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90613 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Patty Satjapot" wrote in post #90582: > Hi everyone, sorry if this was discussed before. I was reading through the > series, and I realized that I have never come across anywhere in the book > where they mention tuition for Hogwarts and if some students were waived or > how much the MoM funded Hogwarts and who were their sponsors, etc. I was > wondering if anyone might have read somewhere in the books if they mentioned > those things because I remember that Hagrid spoke to Harry in the first book > about his gold in Gringotts for purchasing his equipment, but he didn't say > anything about paying tuition. If it's not mentioned in the books, did JKR > mention it anywhere? > > Patty Bohcoo replies: All of the replies to your thought-provoking post were excellent -- and I would imagine that the reality of it lies somewhere in a blend of all of the theories. I'd like to propose an alternate possibility: What if Dumbledore has been keeping Hogwarts going with "all the money a person could want," from drinking the Elixir from the Sorcer's Stone? Dumbledore, a man who twinkles over those students with enough initiative to break some of the rules and with enough creativity to get around others, would probably walk through any door even opened a crack in his direction. So, there he was with Flamel, a beaker full of Elixir -- do you really think he didn't take a sip? Didn't store some up for his own use, in essence giving him, Dumbledore, "all the life and money he could want?" So, I think Dumbledore's long life is due, in part, to the Elixir. He would also have all the money he needed and I am sure he would have used it to fund Hogwarts in any way that was needed -- operating expenses, salaries, maintenance and all the other things tuition is meant to cover. Unfortunately, the Stone is now destroyed. Haven't we all noticed the increasing frequency with which Dumbledore is described as "old" or "old and tired?" He has always been described as "ancient" and "old" but in OOP JKR amped it up considerably. I see that as an elephant-in-the-room clue that Dumbledore's days are numbered. Without the Elixir, he will age quickly and die soon. Now, here is the ant-in-the room clue: Have you also noticed that the castle is also aging, taking on a Dorian Gray aspect of Dumbledore? In previous books the common room, in particular, is described as warm and cozy; in OOP it is described as dilapidated, with threadbare rugs and holes in the arms of the chairs. As Dumbledore ages, the castle ages. Could it be that when Dumbledore dies, the castle will just evaporize into dust? Shuddering to think it, Bohcoo From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Feb 10 16:39:28 2004 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:39:28 -0000 Subject: Oops - 90612 IS different from 90613 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90614 Sorry guys -- I forgot to change the subject line when replying. Not that I'm any big genius, but I hope you all read both posts and don't just think I sent the identical post twice. Red-facedly yours, Bohcoo From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 16:40:37 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:40:37 -0000 Subject: Le Guin's Potter bashing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90615 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" wrote: > Another great author joins the ranks of those who don't get the fuss > about HP. In The Guardian on Monday February 9 Ursula LeGuin wrote: > > Question: Nicholas Lezard has written 'Rowling can type, but Le Guin > can write.' What do you make of this comment in the light of the > phenomenal success of the Potter books? I'd like to hear your > opinion of JK Rowling's writing style > > Answer: I have no great opinion of it. When so many adult critics > were carrying on about the "incredible originality" of the first > Harry Potter book, I read it to find out what the fuss was about, > and remained somewhat puzzled; it seemed a lively kid's fantasy > crossed with a "school novel", good fare for its age group, but > stylistically ordinary, imaginatively derivative, and ethically > rather mean-spirited. Let me start with LeGuin's 'ethically mean-spirited' comment, 'cause it got me fired up: LeGuin represents a passivist New Age philosophy that denies the existence of Voldemorts, of whom there are many in the world. Maybe LeGuin would like to try conflict resolution on LV, or find out what Lucius's real needs are. Bah. People in the Potterverse do get comeuppance sometimes, something LeGuin probably doesn't believe in. JKR hasn't got a problem with it, apparently, and neither do I. You don't see Harry, Ron, Heremione, or the twins bullying, do you? As far as 'stylistically ordinary' goes, LeGuin has a point, although to me it's not a negative. JKR uses a straight ahead storytelling style, a clean, clear narrative, not rich in language like Tolkien or Eddison, but well suited to telling her tale. Imaginatively derivative? Devilish antagonists aren't new, nor conflicts amongst students, nor a trio of close friends, but those elements haven't been combined in the way JKR has before. Would we criticize a cook for using flour, salt, and sugar in his cooking? Shakespeare's plots weren't very original. I wouldn't compare JKR with Shakespeare, but one of the secrets of her success is the same as one of Shakespeare's: she gave us incredibly rich, complex, real characters that have survived us discussing them to death for years now. The power of these characters is reflected by the millions of words of HP fanfiction out there; these characters are good enough that we want to work their poor fingers to the bone in our plots. The power of Shakespeare's characters is shown in the challenge to actors of interpreting 400 year old characters. I care what happens to everybody in the Potterverse; were any of you that wrapped up in Ged's fate? (Wizard of Earthsea, by LeGuin, which I liked and have a good opinion of). Of course, the biggest difference between JKR and Shakespeare that comes to mind is he reinvented about half the English language and JKR hasn't; but she's done all right. LeGuin should have asked us what all the fuss is about. From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 16:54:47 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:54:47 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <20040210092012.14805.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, udder_pen_dragon wrote: > > > "Erika L." wrote: > > Toad replied: > >You're right, Andrew. It all comes >down to interpretation. And, In > >my opinion, which pairing or person you >most identify with. Are you > >more like Hermione, Ginny or Luna? >Would you rather be involved > >with someone like Hermione, Ginny or >Luna? > > > >I'm an avid H/G shipper. I definitely >identify more with Ginny. > > *nods* I too have noticed this trend in shipping tendencies. I myself identify quite closely with Hermione and I ship H/H. To me pairing Hermione with Ron is just unthinkable. I don't relate to him at all as a character. I also have never enjoyed the arguing between Ron and Hermione. But lots of people do identify with Ron and those who ship R/H enjoy their bickering. I sometimes wonder if there is a preponderance of Ron fans on the R/H ship. Either way, I think most shippers are reading through tinted glass. We use canon to back our arguments, but the interpretation of any quote is still highly subjective. I don't think that you can analyze ships by quotes, or by analyzing canon. We're not trying to prove who killed Cock Robin here. This is a retread, I've posted it before, but it's my take: I'm an H/H shipper because time and again Harry and Hermione are perfect for each other, but I started out as an H/G shipper and still have a soft spot for it, so Toad and I are not opponents, but mirror images: THE CASE FOR HARRY AND GINNY Toad:"See, I [see] this completely different [than GEO does]. Ginny is over her hero- worship crush. She sees Harry with all his flaws. The stage is set for true love to enter the picture. I actually have more hope for an H/G romance after reading OotP. They wouldn't have stood a chance if Ginny fell in love with the Boy Who Lived." I agree completely. H/G would never work if she was in little girlish infatuation. Now we see Ginny growing up in a really good way. This girl's head is screwed on straight. She's her own person, and I like how she's integrated Fred and George into herself. She has the gumption and character for a complex guy like Harry. Ron wants it, FWIW, and he's Harry's best friend. I absolutely do not believe that Ron's promoting H/G to leave Hermione clear for him; I am sure Ron is completely sincere in wanting to see his sister and his best friend together for both their sakes, which brings us to a mine-field concept in the shipping lexicon: ONE BIG HAPPY WEASLEY FAMILY OBHWF is a minefield in shipping debate, beginning with a double R/H and H/G wedding, and everybody living happily ever after on Walton - er, Weasley - Mountain. Many shippers find it too corny and saccharine for words, but I don't. Harry's going to be beat to hell at the end of the war, wounded, in mind and probably body, exhausted, and more stressed than anyone should ever be. He'll need all the support he can get, and most people would count themselves blessed to be in the bosom of a family like the Weasleys, who know him, love him, and understand him. Love is the greatest power in the Universe, and the deepest mystery in the Department of Mysteries. Where else but OBHWF would there be more in one spot? THE CASE FOR HERMIONE AND HARRY I said I'm an H/H shipper, for one overriding reason: never have two people been more suited to each other, perfect soulmates. Hermione has been the person who has prepared him for his challenges; while he is the greatest natural talent of his generation, she is the exemplar of what hard work and application can do - a perfect yin and yang. She understands him better than anyone else. Hermione cares for him as much or more than anyone. When she asks after Harry and Cho, what's going on there? Is she not interested in Harry, or not aware of *how* she might care for him, or is she mature enough to know his feelings for Cho have to be resolved, that the risk must be run? I don't know, but I know that Harry and Hermione love each other already. It may not be romantic love, but they are incredibly close. Hermione with anybody else - even Ron - would be a step backwards in intimacy. Hermione knows exactly what Harry needs. Her DA idea was brilliant, giving him a purpose and a boost he badly needed at the same time providing others with something they needed as well. She sees in Harry his natural leadership qualities and the isolation that was hurting him, and came up with just the right thing that helped him keep going. It's not an accident that JKR tells us more than once how much the DA means to Harry. Let's remember whose idea it was, and how she cared for him at a time when Harry was just plain unlikeable. (I was mad at him about fifty times in OOP). Harry has noticed her, and the subtlety of the clues make them more convincing. In OOP, when she suggests he tell Cho how ugly he thinks Hermione is, he says 'but I don't think you're ugly!' which was a spontaneous letting out of his feelings. In GoF, there were true sparks when he noticed her at the Yule Ball. These seeds are not idly planted. They will burst out someday. Harry's 'saved' Hermione, too. I don't mean physically, although he has, but Hermione knew early that she would be a different person and a lesser one without being in the Trio. She started out with an affinity to Percy, but look at how the two have diverged. Because of her adventures, because she's discovered real purpose, she's a young woman of character and moral courage and Percy's a disgusting sycophant. She might have been a Ravenclaw at heart when she arrived, but there never was a truer Gryffindor now. She's seen what bravery can do. Hermione has gained immensely from knowing Harry. WHAT DOES HARRY NEED? If Harry ends up with Ginny, he's going to have a supportive, loving woman and family, a healing balm for all the hurts he's got and will get. If it's Hermione, she's going to care for him in a different way, pushing him when he needs it, tough when she has to be, challenging him back to health. Which does he need? If anyone wants to argue their viewpoint based on the idea that "JKR says so," that's weak, IMO. JKR doesn't want us to do that. She wants us to find it in the meaning of her text. She keeps telling us everything is there, and it is. I come down on the H/H side, but I won't cry for him if he ends up with Ginny, no way. She's a great girl, and they all deserve to be happy. Jim F. P.S. When I was an enthusiastic H/G shipper, and when I was, this was the daily affirmation of the Good SHIP H/G: "Say it loud, I'm corny and I'm proud! We love Her-my-oh-ninny, but we're gonna root for Ginny!" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 17:16:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:16:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "james320152002" wrote: > Carol: > > The only killing spell that Harry knows is an Unforgivable Curse > > that requires either intense hatred or a cold indifference to > > murder to make it work. Either use will corrupt the soul. > > > > Harry, IMO, must not learn to use the Unforgivable Curses, which > > are the weapons of the enemy. They are not only illegal (unless > > the Ministry of Magic gives him special permission to use them and > > that seems most unlikely), they are Unforgivable. > > I understand your point of view on this but after all the death and > pain Lord Voldemort has caused who would blame Harry for taking the > easy way out, just using the Avada Kedavra could end this war. With > all the pain that Voldemort has caused Harry, I am sure he could > muster up the anger to destroy him for good. > > "james320152002" Dumbledore himself has warned Harry against taking the easy way out, and it's significant that he poses the choice not as right vs. wrong but as "what is right rather than what is easy." IMO, Harry will make a choice that is both right and difficult, one that's consistent with "Good" as JKR has defined it. Anger and goodness seldom go together in her book, and good people (epitomized by Dumbledore) have powers that they will not use. This point is made in the very first chapter of the very first book, and I doubt that JKR will deviate from it or allow her hero to do so. The challenge for Harry is how to destroy Voldemort without resorting to Voldemort's methods or falling to his level. Revenge only perpetuates the cycle of pain and death. Carol From mbarclay at lee.edu Tue Feb 10 17:36:37 2004 From: mbarclay at lee.edu (rzl46) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:36:37 -0000 Subject: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: <001701c3efc3$88b3c5d0$654dbfd5@henrike> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90618 Interesting idea. I've often pondered the similar idea of reproduction while under the influence of polyjuice potion. I've been absent from this group for several months, so I'll refrain from writing more from the fear of repeating. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Feb 10 17:38:51 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:38:51 -0000 Subject: Possession Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90619 I've been searching the web trying to find the reference for the quote that CoS contains clues to the Theory of Everything in the HP series. Not successful so far (this web thing is just too damn big), but I did come across something veeeerry interesting which *may* have some bearing on the Possession thread. It's from Quick Quotes and it's the Scholastic.com online chat, 16th Oct 2000. JK was asked about the Chamber and responded that "...I just liked the thought that Slytherin had left something of himself behind." "..something of *himself*?" The Basilisk isn't 'of himself' is it? Can a structure like the Chamber itself be considered as such? Stretching it a bit, IMO, though there will be those that dissent. This sounds interesting; in fact it makes my eyes gleam just like DD's did. I'm officially up-grading my Possession 'speculations' up a level to 'Theory'. Back to that web thing. Kneasy From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Feb 10 17:59:36 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:59:36 -0000 Subject: Mimble Wimble (SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90620 Carol wrote: > Since JKR has taken great pains from Book One to present Uncle Vernon > as the ultimate Muggle, even allowing us inside his head to present > the Muggle tendency to deny the existence of anything that would hint > at the magic he considers "unnatural," I really don't think it could > be him. > > And if Vernon turns out to be the one who learns magic late in life, > despite any inclination to do so, how can we trust anything JKR's > narrator says? (I know we can't trust Harry's perspective, but the > first chapter of SS/PS is not written from Harry's POV, and it clearly > presents Vernon as a Muggle.) Never underestimate the power of denial. Personally, I hope that Vernon turns out to be the distant Weasley cousin who is an accountant, and of whom they Never Speak. After all, directors of companies are usually accountants. For me, the main merit of this theory is that an H/H ending does not prevent Harry being part of One Big Sappy Weasley Family after all. Bwahahahahaha! David From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Feb 10 18:03:28 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:03:28 -0000 Subject: The meanings of the titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90621 Annemehr wrote: > To go even deeper, though, I think the death of a phoenix by fire and its rebirth from the ashes relates very closely to what Harry has > just gone through beginning in the graveyard of GoF and right through his fifth year. He lived through the "fire" all year, which was > miserable for him, and which culminated in the soul-crushing loss of Sirius and revelation of the prophecy. In his meditation by the > lake we find he has been reduced to "ashes," and in his meeting with Luna and his reaction to the Kings Cross sendoff I believe we > see our first glimpse of the "tiny, wrinkled newborn" phoenix chick -- the beginning of the new Harry. The descriptions of the > immediate pre- and post-burning Fawkes in CoS note that he was very ugly (as many people complain of Harry's attitude and temper > in OoP), yet the mature bird is very beautiful. Intuitively, this feels right to me. It's Harry-centric; we are explicitly reminded of this aspect of the Phoenix when Fawkes stops the AK; the previous book has 'fire' in the title; as the book proceeds Harry has to carry a progressively heavier load; the plot driver towards the end is Harry's loyalty to Sirius; and we hope the tears at the end will bring healing. I like the idea that fannish discontent with OOP is foreshadowed by Alas - I'm not competent to judge the alchemy connections. > Your post also reminds me of something Iris posted some time ago, which complements what you've said very well. In her post > (message #46992) she writes how she found that the seven obstacles Harry faced on the way to the philosopher's stone in PS/SS > seem to parallel main ideas in each of the seven books. Yes, indeed - and she has reiterated it at the Hogs Head group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/message/493 - since we're talking about harmony ;-) In fact, Iris' posts were partly in my mind when writing about the titles. I really like what Iris has to say, but I think there is a difficulty in drawing out the truly fundamental from the merely very significant, which is something I'd like to try. I turned to the titles as a way of filtering the themes in the hope that they would provide a new clarity. For example, I'm not sure that Fluffy's significance is *primarily* the suggestion of 'triplication' (interestingly, Iris didn't mention the HRH trio - I think that must be your own contribution); I think other interpretations are possible, for example that he signals entrance to the underworld (in Greek mythology Cerberus the three headed dog was Hades' guard dog: remember Hagrid got him 'from a Greek chappie'; also Cerberus was charmed by the music of Orpheus cf Dumbledore's hint about music at the sorting feast). So you could interpret that trial as being about entrance and initiation: enter the living philosopher's stone with the power to charm (stopper?) death, who first has to proceed through a sequence of trials. It could also be saying that the end of the trials is death, a possibility reinforced by Hagrid's role as ferryman in the first book (Hades is normally reached by a ferry across the river Styx, piloted by Charon; remember also Hagrid is introduced as 'Keeper of the Keys', a role we subsequently hear nothing of despite it being a chapter title, reminiscent of Jesus' statement 'I hold the keys to death and Hades' (Rev 1)). But I'm not wedded to this interpretation any more than the 'triplication' one. The problem with symbolic interpretation of HP (as with Revelation!) is too many meanings, not too few. Hence my interest in the titles as possible statements: '*these* are the symbols by which to interpret all the other symbols'. But I accept this may be forcing the books into a mould that they can't fit. For instance, first was Fluffy the three-headed dog, which seems to parallel > the formation of HRH's friendship, the three into one committed unit. Second was Devil's Snare (a snakey plant) down the trapdoor, > which parallels Harry going *down* into the Chamber of Secrets and encountering the basilisk. It goes on very convincingly -- I > recommend reading it all. It's also interesting to try to predict books six and seven likewise. Exactly - this approach complements the detective-story one where clues are analysed. > Iris, if she's reading this, may have more to add, and those more knowledgeable about alchemy may have to correct me somewhat, > though I think I have the basic idea right. Fire away, everyone! > Does any of this point to anything? I think studying the titles as you have can certainly help us perceive the main themes of the > books, for instance that (IMO) OoP was maybe more about the "remaking" of Harry than it was about what was hidden in the DoM. I > think everything you, Iris, and I have said makes it obvious that this is a very well-thought-out story indeed, where JKR has > amalgamated much folklore and history, alchemy, and ideas from her own Christian religion into an extremely rich whole. It is so rich, > in fact, that it makes it very difficult to pick out what are the central relationships and symbols from what may just be conicidental. It > has us looking up the meanings of flowers and trees, astrology and star names, alchemical symbols, classical mythology and local > folklore, runes, numerology, second meanings of names, Christian symbolism, literary references (Shakespeare, Gouge, ), and more > I'm sure, as well as searching out parallels between different parts of the story itself (e.g. Grindelwald <--> Voldemort, Marauders <--> > HRH). A very good children's story indeed! > > I'm looking forward to seeing how JKR weaves everything together in the end. I can only echo this. David From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Tue Feb 10 18:09:46 2004 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:09:46 -0000 Subject: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: <001701c3efc3$88b3c5d0$654dbfd5@henrike> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "SnapesRaven" wrote: SnapesRaven wrote: > I don't intend to imply any animagus pairings here... I just wonder. Just for fun (and to make your head spin), imagine what would happen if a wizard in animagus form accidentally mated with an animal of the species they turned into. (For example, pretend that McGonagall accidentally mated with a cat or kneazle while in cat form). Would the offspring be half-human but in cat form? Kneazles are supposed to be very smart; imagine a half-human half kneazle running around. -kg who's traveling to the UK next spring and has some football/beer questions for anyone who's interested (and able) to answer them off- list. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 18:13:12 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:13:12 -0000 Subject: Riddle House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90623 > Sue wrote: > > I just have one question. Who owns the Riddle house? > > I was under the impression that it was owned by Voldemort's father and grandparents. Did it not mention in GOF that those three were killed there? > If all the muggles were afraid to go there, then why would anyone else have to own it. It was kept up by Frank. An abandoned house whose owners were murdered would go to their estate, and with no known heirs (Tom's existence would have been kept secret), the ownership would presumably have reverted to a real estate company or the government. It wouln't be left ownerless. In any case, we know that there were three subsequent owners, at least two of them Muggles. The first two families tried to live there but evidently regarded it as a haunted house and quickly sold it. The third never lived there but reputedly kept it "for tax purposes." The impression created by those words is that the current absentee owner is a rich Muggle, but people on this board have speculated that it's really Lucius Malfoy, who has kept it for LV all these years. I personally can't imagine Lucius "lowering" himself to pose as a Muggle or succeeding in the attempt. (Lucius with a Muggle haircut and a business suit, negotiating with Muggle real estate agents and purchasing the house with Muggle money? Or Lucius using Muggle post and writing checks drawn on a Muggle bank to buy the house and pay Frank's wages?) Anyway, here's the relevant passage: "[After the murders,] Frank did not leave. He stayed to tend the garden for the next family who lived in the Riddle House, and then the next--for neither family stayed long. . . . The wealthy man who owned the Riddle House these days neither lived there nor put it to any use; they said in the village that he kept it 'for tax resaons,' though nobody was very clear what these might be. The wealthy owner continued to pay Frank to do the gardening. . . ." (GoF Am. ed., 4-5) All we know for sure is that, yes, the house had subsequent owners and the current one is an absentee owner. That person seems to be a Muggle but his reasons for buying the house aren't entirely clear: the "tax reasons" sound like speculation on the part of the Little Hangletonians rather than a real motive for purchasing a "creepy" and decrepit old manor house. Since the owner pays Frank (in Muggle money), IMO he probably is really a Muggle. He could, however, be a sinister Muggle with WW connections, or even a Muggle-born wizard with connections to both the Muggle world and the WW. But it's hard to imagine a Muggle or Muggle-born wizard wanting to return the House to LV as his "rightful heritage"--or LV wanting to own the house that reminds him of the Muggle heritage he was denied. I personally think that he needed to be near his father's grave to obtain his bone and the deserted house was a good place to hide until he could achieve that purpose, but I don't see how he or Malfoy could legally own it. Anyway, you have the quote and my speculations. Draw your own conclusions. Carol From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 18:20:11 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:20:11 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > > It's from Quick Quotes and it's the Scholastic.com online chat, > 16th Oct 2000. > > JK was asked about the Chamber and responded that "...I just > liked the thought that Slytherin had left something of himself > behind." > > "..something of *himself*?" The Basilisk isn't 'of himself' is it? > Can a structure like the Chamber itself be considered as such? > Stretching it a bit, IMO, though there will be those that dissent. > > This sounds interesting; in fact it makes my eyes gleam just like > DD's did. I'm officially up-grading my Possession 'speculations' > up a level to 'Theory'. > > Back to that web thing. > > Kneasy Since I first read this thread and made my comment, I have been trying to find where I had read the initial article that made me think about the "possession" idea and how TR and Grindelwalde, etc., might be connected. Yesterday, I found it. It was Maline's first essay entitled "Chosen" on Mugglenet's "North Tower" section. I find Maline's article's very fascinating and enlightening. Julie From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 18:43:14 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:43:14 -0000 Subject: Unicorn horns In-Reply-To: <000501c3efea$a8f685e0$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90625 Sylvia: But I'm still puzzled as to how they obtain the unicorn's horn without harming the animal. Do unicorns shed their horns? Or are the horns removed after the creature has died naturally? I imagine unicorns must be pretty rare, even in the WW so how do they obtain sufficient horns for school-children to use in potion making? Iggy: Also, nobody said that they use the entire horn. Looking through the Forbidden Forest, you might find splinters of horn that have come off when they were sharpening their horns or in fights, or even larger chunks broken off in fights, challenges for dominance of the herd, etc... You probably just have to know where to look. Some people, like Hagrid, may even be able to get the unicorn to let them "harvest" some of their horn material. (Shaving a little off the sides and end will allow the horn to retain its defensive and magical abilities, and will also help keep the horn from getting so large as to be troublesome... like a stag who's antlers have grown too large to allow it to easily make it through thick foliage.) Carol responds: Although Hagrid seems to be an exception to the rule, JKR's unicorns generally follow traditional mythology in being less afraid of girls than boys (or women than men). (Professor Grubbly-Plank has the boys stand back and the girls come forward.) Maybe Ollivander has a granddaughter (Luna?) who calls the unicorns to her long enough for him to pull out their tail hairs (but nothing worse) to make a wand. As for horns, a unicorn might be willing to shed its horn into a young girl's hand. She could then give it to an adult who needed it as a potion ingredient. (Snape, of course, would buy his powdered unicorn horn in Diagon Alley rather than relying on, say, Pansy Parkinson, to help him obtain it.) Unicorn blood, of course, is another matter, and would not be used in potions made by students--or by Snape. It can only be obtained as Quirrelmort obtained it, by killing or wounding the unicorn to give himself a cursed half life. (BTW, although some people on this list blame Harry for Quirrell's death, I think it had more to do with having drunk the unicorn blood. Once LV left him, he had only his own accursed self. The burns Harry gave him (in self-defense) on his hands and face probably were not fatal, but the unicorn blood, in combination with being unpossessed, probably was.) Carol From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Feb 10 18:50:30 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:50:30 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90626 > > Toad replied: > > >You're right, Andrew. It all comes >down to interpretation. And, In my opinion, which pairing or person you most identify with. Are you more like Hermione, Ginny or Luna? >Would you rather be involved with someone like Hermione, Ginny or >Luna? I'm an avid H/G shipper. I definitely >identify more with Ginny. Erika: > > *nods* I too have noticed this trend in shipping tendencies. I myself identify quite closely with Hermione and I ship H/H. To me pairing Hermione with Ron is just unthinkable. I don't relate to him at all as a character. I also have never enjoyed the arguing between Ron and Hermione. But lots of people do identify with Ron and those who ship R/H enjoy their bickering. I sometimes wonder if there is a preponderance of Ron fans on the R/H ship. Either way, I think most shippers are reading through tinted glass. We use canon to back our arguments, but the interpretation of any quote is still highly subjective.<< Jim: >> I don't think that you can analyze ships by quotes, or by analyzing canon. We're not trying to prove who killed Cock Robin here. This is a retread, I've posted it before, but it's my take: I'm an H/H shipper because time and again Harry and Hermione are perfect for each other, but I started out as an H/G shipper and still have a soft spot for it, so Toad and I are not opponents, but mirror images:<< Pippin: I think it depends not only on how you want the story to end but on how you want it to develop. Do you prefer a fairytale romance, where all the obstacles to the lovers' happiness are external, or do you prefer an Austen-esque affair in which two apparently mismatched people have to work through a comic/painful process of self-discovery with bliss as their ultimate reward? R/H,H/G does not necessarily equal a sacharrine One Big Happy Weasley family double wedding --not if Harry has to leave the wizarding world in order to save it (which I believe he will.) Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 19:06:14 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:06:14 -0000 Subject: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90627 > SnapesRaven wrote: > > > > I don't intend to imply any animagus pairings here... I just > wonder. > > Just for fun (and to make your head spin), imagine what would happen > if a wizard in animagus form accidentally mated with an animal of > the species they turned into. (For example, pretend that McGonagall > accidentally mated with a cat or kneazle while in cat form). Would > the offspring be half-human but in cat form? Kneazles are supposed > to be very smart; imagine a half-human half kneazle running around. I'm not sure how far I want to go with this idea given that the HP series is (at least in theory) intended for children, but we do have the pairing of Hagrid's wizard father and giant(ess) mother, which rather boggles the mind even though they were married. McGonagall "letting her hair down" to mate with a male cat is a little harder to swallow. But your theory could plausibly account for the origin of centaurs (an animagus in horse form and a real horse). It seems preferable to the alternative (a horse and a woman or a mare and a man). Ugh. Carol, who can't believe she posted to this thread From rredordead at aol.com Tue Feb 10 19:17:30 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:17:30 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90628 > Kneasy wrote: > > This is the way I'm tending to lean. Although Tom wandered the > > world for a number of years before making his bid for power, there is no evidence of anything out there that could change a spiteful and resentful adolescent into the Voldy!Monster. > kg wrote: > The one flaw I see in your argument is that Tom Riddle took the time to create his diary while still at Hogwarts and presumably before he first entered the chamber of secrets. Plus he was already calling himself "Lord Voldemort" amongst his friends at school. Creating the diary to preserve his sixteen year old self shows quite a bit of foresight, actually, that shows more foresight from Voldemort than we saw in OotP. > > I guess the next proof you need for your theory is 1) whether Tom > started calling himself Voldemort before or after he entered the > chamber, and 2) if he created the diary before or after entering the chamber. Mandy here: I don't necessarily see this as a flaw in the, well, what is now Kneesy's theory. ;-) I always saw the Diary as flexible in it ability to amass knowledge over time. Like the portraits on DD wall, they all see to be very aware of current events even though they've been dead for many years. I believe the diary is like that in that, as along as someone is able to communicate with it, it learns and amasses knowledge. Whoever had the Diary before Ginny, prime suspect being Lucius Malfoy, could have kept it updated. Informing the diary of LV life since he 'lost' the book. If the essence of Tom and LV is in that diary and I don't think it matters, for the possession theory to work, when Tom began to call himself Lord Voldemort. The diary would assume the latter name as it is now the correct title for the diary's creator. And the spirit of Lord Voldemort, that is present in the Chamber, sucking life from Ginny, is fully cognizant of the current Lord Volemort's past and present, as well as the 16 year old Tom Riddle's past, present and future. Does that make any sense??? Cheers Mandy From starropal at hotmail.com Tue Feb 10 19:23:36 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:23:36 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unicorn horns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90629 I don't have any answers for you, just another passage. When Hagrid takes Harry inside the Apothecary: "...Harry himself examined silver unicorn horns at twenty-one Galleons each..." P/SS ch 5, pg 81 US pb. Star Opal "Isn't life," she stammered, "isn't life-" But what life was she couldn't explain. No matter. He quite undestood. "*Isn't* it, darling?" said Laurie. _________________________________________________________________ Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx From mranan at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 19:32:40 2004 From: mranan at yahoo.com (mranan at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:32:40 -0000 Subject: Le Guin's Potter bashing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90630 Certain quote deleted for easy formatting --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" > wrote: > > Answer: I have no great opinion of it. When so many adult critics > > were carrying on about the "incredible originality" of the first > > Harry Potter book, I read it to find out what the fuss was about, > > and remained somewhat puzzled; it seemed a lively kid's fantasy > > crossed with a "school novel", good fare for its age group, but > > stylistically ordinary, imaginatively derivative, and ethically > > rather mean-spirited. > I hope this isn't a start of another endless de ja vu of "Look that author bashed HP, so let's bash her/him back here" thread. While everyone is entitled with their opinions, I'd rather trying to figure out why le Guin would think so other than why she is wrong at bashing HP. The fact that we like something they don't like does not mean that they are doing something unreasonable. First of all, le Guin is over 70 years old...I am not saying that old people don't have open minds, but the social and ethical environment they experienced over years differs vastly from us who were born much later. It is quite possible that her acceptance on a pop novel is far less than most of us, as you can find out from other questions being asked in that interview. And for those of you who know well about Taoism...they adopt changes very slowly and prefer to be "isolated" from political and social movements to focus on the scholastic and literary sides of things. They are never avid supporters of a particular trend, per se. With that in mind, let's look at her comment: "stylistically ordinary, imaginatively derivative, and ethically rather mean-spirited." This is all drawn from a very highly set literary PoV (AKA "the snob view"). And if you raise the bar high enough, you will see her points. HP wasn't that highly rated among the writing groups I was a members of, although most members were HP fans anyway. I am not experienced enough to tell about writing styles..."imaginatively derivative" mostly refers to the settings that JKR adopted from established (fantasy or not) books and yet did not derive far enough from the modern world, and as she developes more along the books, some appear to conflict with others. One fantasy/sci-fi tradition is that your create your world and the story happends under its rule, where in HP we don't find that necessary because the world setting is rather vague compare to big sets such as LoTR and WoT. "ethically rather mean-spirited" refers to the card-board image of B&W portrayed by some characters in the books as well as some words used to represent it. It is a bit early to draw such conclusions as I don't think this is what JKR intended to keep until Book 7. And I think whether this comment is reasonable or not depends on how she will write the rest of the series. This is one of the most fun part about HP, that Harry's view might be so jaded and many things were not be what was told. To strictly criticize HP on this issue based on facts up to OoTP, I would partially agree with le Guin. >From the above one can see that HP was usually bashed due to its somehow man-made special nature: a children's book turned out to be a series actually grows with its readers, a result would not be materialized with its success business-wise. If it was to remain as a children's book, or not be have so many pop concepts that attract millions of buyers and be highly praised, traditional authors would not be so harsh on it. And ironically that is exactly where HP's literary highlight and originality comes from: It opens a route on using low-fantasy settings to create an vivid, easy-to-read book that can be mass-marketed to break the age barrier in reading. It also suggests a new form of fantasy fiction where the business concept was heavily favored over its literary intentions (whether on purpose or not). Which was, unfortunately, loathed by many professionals since good fiction was meant to be an higher art that only tells its greatness to selected targets who could understand and appreciate it, Not something so widly loved and blindly followed by the entire world like the earlier Disney movies. (Well, Disney were not bashed like that, they end pretty soon and they don't grow with your kids to make more money...) To break down the roots: HP was hated among traditional writers because 1.the forever war between the "pop Vs. pro" debate in the book industry 2.the powerful marketing strategy and the somehow frightening global fever brought by the publicity after the initial success of PS. le Guin's comments just proved these once again. Don't ask her to find out what the fuss is all about, because the nature of the fuss itself was part about this book that she does not find appealing. From rredordead at aol.com Tue Feb 10 20:14:30 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:14:30 -0000 Subject: Possession and Salazar's Noble Work. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90631 Kneesy wrote: What happened to Salazar Slytherin? We don't know. We are told that he left the school - after constructing the Chamber. Presumably he could see the way the wind was blowing long before he left. Mandy here: I've been mulling on the unification of Houses, LV's ambitions, and your very interesting theory of LV really being possessed by Salazar Slytherin and I started to think about what could be Salazar's ultimate goal in building the Chamber and enabling the ability to possess a worthy body. It seems to me an awful lot of work to go to just to force Hogwarts to close by killing handful of presumptuously magical children. Don't you think? There has to be a grander plan than that. What we do know is Salazer had the desire to only admit pureblooded children into the school, deeming all others not worthy of an education in magic. And we know Gryffindor, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw opposed this course of action, forcing Salazar in to the position of abandoning Hogwarts all together. Above, you propose that Salazar suspected he would have to leave, finished the chamber anyway sealing himself, or a spirit of himself inside, along with a few other nasty secrets yet to be discovered. A 1000 or so years passed and Tom came along and was the ideal vessel for Salazar to continue and/or finish his noble work. Sound good to me but I suppose my question is then what exactly is Salazar Slytherin's noble work? As I said above it's got to be more that closing down Hogwarts School. A noble goal for an Evil Overlord is to take over the world as we know it, and that seems to be Voldemorts plan. So with that in mind how can the Chamber be used to assist Salazar/Voldemort achieve that goal? What if The Chamber is a catalyst to destroy Hogwarts and all it contains? After all, it contains all the off-spring of the WW in Britain right? One sap and the next generation is entirely destroyed, mudbloods, halfbloods, and the purebloods disgusting enough to fraternize with them, leaving the WW ready to start anew with only Salazars/Voldemorts chosen purebloods. I know it's a bit extreme and a very thin, but it's a start and I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on Slytherin's Noble Work. Cheers and thanks for a really interesting new theroy Kneesy. Mandy From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Tue Feb 10 20:37:38 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:37:38 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi reproducing? Message-ID: <20040210203738.XVXD26012.out010.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90633 {SnapesRaven} I don't intend to imply any animagus pairings here... I just wonder. Just for fun (and to make your head spin), imagine what would happen if a wizard in animagus form accidentally mated with an animal of the species they turned into. {Carol} I'm not sure how far I want to go with this idea given that the HPgseries is (at least in theory) intended for children, <<>> But your theory could plausibly account for the origin of centaurs (an animagus in horse form and a real horse). It seems preferable to the alternative (a horse and a woman or a mare and a man). Ugh. {Anne} I have to agree with Carol on prefering to say an animagus horse in form and a real horse mating as an explaination fir centaurs than...um...bestiality as the explaination for any human-animal mixes creature wise. I also kinda want to steer away for the most poart from considering whether wizard/animal mating took place between shape shifted animagi and animals...and to further add, I would also have to say that I doubt that is how Rowling sees the centaur race having formed (if she even thought about it). Since centaurs were a genetically viable race all on thier own in the Greek myths, and Rowling thus far only seems to tweak the original forms of the myths and folkloric creatures for her own use, I don't see the necessity of saying centaurs came from some poor shapeshifted animagus mistaking the family plow animal for his or her human mate after a drunken night on the town, so to speak...^^; However, I am interested enough in shapeshifting to wonder about things such as whether or not a preganant animagus could shift without the risk of miscarriage. Would the body accomidate a non-shifting fetus, or would the strain cause the mother to void it? Or would the child, since fetus and mother are sharing thier blood supply, nutrients and other things, shift with the mother? (This would assume that the child would, by default, probably be sharing the same genetic code that enables the mother to shapeshift.) To go one further (although this possibilty definitely catapaults the theory way out of the pg to pg-13 range the series is written in, and into the part I sort of really don't want to think about--at least not for the sake of a 'childs' series), when an animagus is shapeshifted, does it actually re-write its genetic code so that it is not just the form, but the DNA that changes? In which case, then I would guess that yes, animagus COULD conceivably...er...conceive...off spring with a totally different species. But then we're back to the first question...when mom changes, does the child change also, or does the change in the womb's environment cause the body to reject it? The same question goes for a child with only one animagi parent...how does the genetics from the non-shifted affect the fetus's ability to keep up with mom if she shifts...is there the possibility that the mother CANNOT shift if she's pregnant (some sort of genetic fail safe that keeps her from doing so. so that she doesn't run the risk of loosing her child)? All intersting things to wonder. Of course, since this is, at least on the surface, a children's series, I suspect the possibilities are not likely to be considered by Rowling, except in passing, perhaps (as it was with the mechanics of how Hagrid's mother and father managed to mate--how COULD a 6 foot man manage to mate with a 15 foot or larger woman and manage to conceive?). Since most kids probaly would not bother to wonder about such things (unless they are a biology buff)...she probaly doesn't think it necassary to explain or even acknowledge. (Most kids probably would go "Your dad/mom was a what? Cool!--Or--"'ick!!' how did (the wizard parent involved) stand to do THAT?!"--, and then get on with the rest of the story...lol. Anne **also surprised to be disccusing in this thread** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Tue Feb 10 20:38:26 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:38:26 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Need A Room Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90634 In Honor of the greatest band that ever was and their 40 Anniversary of coming to the U.S. ( http://www.thefab40.com/calendar.html) here is a little filk for your listening enjoyment. Need A Room (A Filk by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Love Me Do_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle01.html If you don't know this tune, then I really pity you. Harry: We must retreat To where we can meet It must be discreet We need - need a room Whoa-oh, need a room Must be a place That has enough space To become our base We need - need a room Whoa-oh, need a room Somewhere that is Hidden away Where I can teach D.A.D.A We have to go Where Umbridge won't know 'Cause she is our foe We need - need a room Whoa-oh, need a room Then twenty-eight Friends and school-mates Will appreciate When we - can resume D.A. class anew Yeah, need a room Whoa-oh, need it soon -Gail B. From mnaperrone at aol.com Tue Feb 10 14:49:19 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:49:19 -0000 Subject: Harry's revenge on Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "james320152002" wrote: > Carol: > > Harry, IMO, must not learn to use the Unforgivable Curses, which > > are the weapons of the enemy. They are not only illegal (unless > > the Ministry of Magic gives him special permission to use them and > > that seems most unlikely), they are Unforgivable. > > I understand your point of view on this but after all the death and > pain Lord Voldemort has caused who would blame Harry for taking the > easy way out, just using the Avada Kedavra could end this war. With > all the pain that Voldemort has caused Harry, I am sure he could > muster up the anger to destroy him for good. I tend to agree with Carol - I don't think Harry should learn unforgivables. And I don't think it will be an Avada Kedavra that kills Voldie. It'll have to be some spell or other magic stemming from wuuuvvvvvvv . . . :P mnaper From TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com Tue Feb 10 16:00:55 2004 From: TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com (TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:00:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animagi reproducing? Message-ID: <1C0AF223.35B66808.FD754928@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90636 a) Would an animagus pregnancy require remaining in the animal form during the whole period? a.1) How long whould this period be? The time the kind of animal would take to deliver a cub/whatever or the human span of ~9 months? a.2) Would the child of two animagi become one as well, or is it still necessary to learn how to change? b) Do animagi maintain their human gender? I mean, do men always change into male animals, and women vice versa? So, let me get what you're saying: if McGonagall was pregnant when she transfigured herself into the cat, would her fetus become a kitten fetus? I should think transfiguration wouldn't be recommended for women who are pregnant. There's probably something about changing your form that would be harmful to the baby. I think transfiguration isn't something you inherit how to do, but rather something you can learn to do. So even if your parents can transfigure themselves, you may not be able to. I should think that you would maintain your gender when you transfigure. Trix From kreneeb at hotmail.com Tue Feb 10 18:15:45 2004 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:15:45 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90637 Jim F. said >If anyone wants to argue their viewpoint based on the idea that "JKR >says so," that's weak, IMO. JKR doesn't want us to do that. She >wants us to find it in the meaning of her text. She keeps telling us >everything is there, and it is. Kitten says, I'm not a Shipper, IMO Hermione, Ginny, and Luna are great girls, but I just don't see them as Harry's, so don't think that I'm weak and trying to argue my viewpoint by saying JKR Said so, but If JKR wants us to find it in the meaning of her books, why in interviews is she still hinting at a Ron/Hermione relationship? As a non shipper I can understand why someone would ship Hermione/Harry or Ginny and Harry in the books there are great evidence for both, I also think that a lot of the books are distorted to suit there shipping preference. I just wonder how Harry and Hermione shippers interpret her interviews. Couric: "Any snogging with Hermione?" Rowling: [surprised] "Harry and Hermione! Do you think so?" -- From Katie Couric's June 2003 interview with JK Rowling "Harry and Hermione are very platonic [platonic means nonsexual] friends. But I won't answer for anyone else. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink." -- From a National Press Club Luncheon chat with JK Rowling, October 1999) Q: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of Goblet of Fire? A: "Yes, something's "going on," but Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy." -- From a BarnesandNoble.com chat with JK Rowling Kitten... Who thinks Harry should end up with a total ghost character, like Susan bones, or Sally Anne Perks, Blaise Zabini, Hannah Abbott. I guess you do ship who you Identify with...As I go back into lurkdom From mnaperrone at aol.com Tue Feb 10 18:29:00 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:29:00 -0000 Subject: Le Guin's Potter bashing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" wrote: > > Another great author joins the ranks of those who don't get the fuss > > about HP. In The Guardian on Monday February 9 Ursula LeGuin wrote: > > Answer: I have no great opinion of it. When so many adult critics > > were carrying on about the "incredible originality" of the first > > Harry Potter book, I read it to find out what the fuss was about, > > and remained somewhat puzzled; it seemed a lively kid's fantasy > > crossed with a "school novel", good fare for its age group, but > > stylistically ordinary, imaginatively derivative, and ethically > > rather mean-spirited. > > Let me start with LeGuin's 'ethically mean-spirited' comment, 'cause > it got me fired up: LeGuin represents a passivist New Age philosophy > that denies the existence of Voldemorts, of whom there are many in > the world. Maybe LeGuin would like to try conflict resolution on LV, > or find out what Lucius's real needs are. Bah. People in the > Potterverse do get comeuppance sometimes, something LeGuin probably > doesn't believe in. JKR hasn't got a problem with it, apparently, and > neither do I. You don't see Harry, Ron, Heremione, or the twins > bullying, do you? See - the ethically mean-spirited thing is the only portion of the commentary that I could see a point to. I'm not familiar with LeGuin's writing, so I can't comment on what she means by ethically mean-spirited. From what you've written, it doesn't sound like she and I would agree on too many things. But when I read her comment, what came to my mind was the somewhat elitist house-division in the books. I think there's an argument to be made (and I'm not yet sure where I fall on that argument) that the books are ethically mean spirited because of that. Either you're a good and noble-hearted Griff or a nasty and untrustworthy Slytherin - now, granted JKR has not maintained this division rigidly - but she hasn't mixed it up very much either. The idea that you're predetermined to be one thing or the other and that one is always ethically or morally superior to the other is not exactly what you'd call egalitarian. I could see how the house separation could be read as something not unlike class or ethnic or racial divisions, with one group always being superior to another. As much as I love the books, this has always been sort of in the back of my mind. I don't put too much stock in it, b/c I don't think JKR really intended to be elitist in her writing, and who knows how much the lines will be blurred by the end of the series? And like I said, I don't know if that's what LeGuin meant, but I can see how some might find at least that aspect of the books problematic. mnaper From imontero at iname.com Tue Feb 10 19:22:11 2004 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:22:11 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90639 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > Toad replied: > > > >You're right, Andrew. It all comes down to interpretation. > And, In my opinion, which pairing or person you most identify > with. Are you more like Hermione, Ginny or Luna? Would you > rather be involved with someone like Hermione, Ginny or Luna? > > I'm an avid H/G shipper. I definitely identify more with Ginny. > > Erika: > > > *nods* I too have noticed this trend in shipping tendencies. I > myself identify quite closely with Hermione and I ship H/H. > Jim: > >> I don't think that you can analyze ships by quotes, or by > analyzing canon. We're not trying to prove who killed Cock > Robin here. > > This is a retread, I've posted it before, but it's my take: > > I'm an H/H shipper because time and again Harry and Hermione > are perfect for each other, but I started out as an H/G shipper > and still have a soft spot for it, so Toad and I are not opponents, > but mirror images:<< > > Pippin: > I think it depends not only on how you want the story to end but > on how you want it to develop. Do you prefer a fairytale romance, > where all the obstacles to the lovers' happiness are external, or > do you prefer an Austen-esque affair in which two apparently > mismatched people have to work through a comic/painful > process of self-discovery with bliss as their ultimate reward? AND...WHAT DOES JKR SAY ABOUT IT? I never supported a specific shipper, but after reading JKR interviews, I think it is pretty clear that H/H is no go 100%, just read what she says about it in different interviews: Dateline NBC June 20, 2003 Couric: "Any snogging (kissing) with Hermione?" Rowling: (slight frown) "Hermione and Harry! Do you think so?" Couric: "No I'm kidding. Rowling: "Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more potential Sunday Gazette-Mail 14 November 1999 (Question) On whether Harry and his friend Hermione will have a date when they get older: "No, but I won't answer for anyone else - nudge, nudge, wink, wink." Press Club 20 October 1999 Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of Goblet of Fire? I love your books, by the way, and two of them I've read straight through cover to cover in under 24 hours. JKR: Well done on the reading speed! Yes, something's "going on," but Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy. JKR: *looking through questions* No, don't like that one. Oh, I like this one do Harry and Hermione have a date? [laughter] No. They are ? they're very platonic friends. But I won't answer for anyone else, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. [laughter and sound of kids going "Aaah!"] Who am I to contradict JKR? It seems that R/H is a more plausible scenario. I think she is very explicit and clear about Harry and Hermione being "quite platonic." On the other hand, she is equally clear about Ron and Hemione having "potential." I am more for H/G, it's a gut feeling Although there is no clear indication, there are hints, like the twins talking to Harry about how powerful she is, and the way she is not intimidated by Harry's worst tantrums. If they don't end up together, they are going to share a very strong friendship and Harry is going to admire her for her courage and power So, what does JKR say about H/G? : Comic Relief March 2001 Live Chat Will Harry ever notice the long-suffering Ginny Weasley? JKR : You'll see... poor Ginny, eh? Irene From slytherin501 at yahoo.es Tue Feb 10 19:25:02 2004 From: slytherin501 at yahoo.es (Sembei Grindelwald) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:25:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90640 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smtopliff" wrote: > What about an animal that kills snakes? How about a mongoose? Maybe > his Patronus is Rikki Tikki Tavi, but with major attitude. Sembei: I think Snape's Patronus is a snitch; with green eyes. Mmmm... why not a pink flamingo? From mandym at triad.rr.com Tue Feb 10 19:47:16 2004 From: mandym at triad.rr.com (mandym347) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:47:16 -0000 Subject: Dursley's and Money (was:... Hogwarts' tuition) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90641 Greetings. :o) I'm new here, but I wanted to throw in my two knuts. I'm pretty sure there is a part in the books where Harry is thinking about his gold in Gringott's, and he thinks that it wouldn't be wise to let the Dursleys know he had a pile of gold lying about. Therefore, I'm inclined to say that the Dursleys would not be above spending any money Harry had, let alone any money wizards gave them for raising him. The Dursleys talk about financial burden, and Vernon doesn't seem to have that nice a job, yet they still afford plenty of things for Dudley. There's something very fishy going on in that household. Mandy From SnapesRaven at web.de Tue Feb 10 19:40:06 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:40:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi reproducing? References: Message-ID: <002801c3f00d$b4d7aba0$552d6486@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 90642 > SnapesRaven wrote: > > I don't intend to imply any animagus pairings here... I just wonder. > > Just for fun (and to make your head spin), imagine what would happen > if a wizard in animagus form accidentally mated with an animal of > the species they turned into. Carol: I'm not sure how far I want to go with this idea given that the HP series is (at least in theory) intended for children, but we do have the pairing of Hagrid's wizard father and giant(ess) mother, which rather boggles the mind even though they were married. McGonagall "letting her hair down" to mate with a male cat is a little harder to swallow. But your theory could plausibly account for the origin of centaurs (an animagus in horse form and a real horse). It seems preferable to the alternative (a horse and a woman or a mare and a man). Ugh. SnapesRaven: Good evening! I'm glad that a few of yu have given my idea some thoughts... BUT I have to make it clear that I'M NOT AT ALL!!!! INTO BESTIALITY HERE!! *ARGH!* ...just in case someone feels squicky... I just wonder how magical a creature may become...? I don't think posting to this thread is different from posting to other threats. So please go on? :) SnapesRaven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 19:58:30 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:58:30 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90643 Hitomi: Konnichiwa! I haven't posted anything in quite a while, and ships make me giggle, so I wanted to comment on Jim's thoughts. I still need to reply to Mandy's Peter Pettigrew post, I just haven't gotten around to it. Jim F. wrote: > *nods* I too have noticed this trend in shipping tendencies. I > myself identify quite closely with Hermione and I ship H/H. To me > pairing Hermione with Ron is just unthinkable. I don't relate to him > at all as a character. I also have never enjoyed the arguing between > Ron and Hermione. But lots of people do identify with Ron and those > who ship R/H enjoy their bickering. I sometimes wonder if there is a > preponderance of Ron fans on the R/H ship. Either way, I think most > shippers are reading through tinted glass. We use canon to back our > arguments, but the interpretation of any quote is still highly > subjective. Hitomi: I am in total agreement that ships are rather superfluous to the series as a whole, and extremely immanent. I am one of those that relates to Ron and Hermione's bickering (though I'm not a huge Ron fan), they're like an old married couple (at least the ones in my family). Not to say that I want Ron and Hermione together, or married, or whatnot (because I honestly couldn't care less), but I've always seen them as the established couple of the books. They're just... sort of already together. Again, I think this is an example of the fact that I am still a teenager (and I don't mean that as an excuse). Ron and Hermione act like a lot of my friends, especially when they are attracted to somebody. They're not mature about it at all, and I know I'm certainly not. The Ron/Hermione and Harry/Hermione arguments have just always struck me as... extraneous to the point. Jim F. wrote: > I don't think that you can analyze ships by quotes, or by analyzing > canon. We're not trying to prove who killed Cock Robin here. Hitomi: This is what I find so funny about ships. People literally get discomfited concerning them, when they really don't matter, and we have no REAL proof of any. I look at JKR's work a lot like Austen's (which I think is permissible, considering JKR is a gigantic fan of Jane Austen's). The couples you think are going to form probably never will. The only canon references we can work with are nitpicked to death. They could mean a number of things. Personally, I have never been a Harry/Hermione fan, mostly because it would be just... ew. Like incest or something. I know if they do end up together, JKR will put in the development I need to feel okay about it (like Austen's "Emma," or "Mansfield Park"), but right now, it's just... ew. Harry shows NO romantic interest towards Hermione whatsoever, he gets bored around her. And with Hermione, it's kind of hard to tell. She shows no preference for Harry she doesn't also express towards Ron, unless you count her seeming ruffled about Fleur and not Cho (displaying a preference towards Ron), which is again nitpicky. If she's attracted to Ron, then Hermione's just waiting for Ron to figure his own feelings out, because I think it's pretty safe to say he's attracted to her romantically. If she's attracted to Harry, well, then I think she's going to be waiting for a rather long time. Usually I ship whatever couple has at least one attracted to the other, just because I want the characters to be happy. I love Harry, and he liked Cho, so I wanted him to be with Cho (even though I knew that was going to be a disaster, which it was). I like Ron, he likes Hermione, so I want him to be with Hermione. Same went with Ginny in the first four books. Now, concerning Harry and Ginny, I just don't care. If they end up together, then yay! If they don't, whatever. As long as they're happy. Jim F. wrote: > ONE BIG HAPPY WEASLEY FAMILY > > OBHWF is a minefield in shipping debate, beginning with a double R/H > and H/G wedding, and everybody living happily ever after on Walton - > er, Weasley - Mountain. Many shippers find it too corny and > saccharine for words, but I don't. Harry's going to be beat to hell > at the end of the war, wounded, in mind and probably body, exhausted, > and more stressed than anyone should ever be. He'll need all the > support he can get, and most people would count themselves blessed to > be in the bosom of a family like the Weasleys, who know him, love > him, and understand him. Love is the greatest power in the Universe, > and the deepest mystery in the Department of Mysteries. Where else > but OBHWF would there be more in one spot? Hitomi: Honestly, I really like the idea of the big-happy-Weasley-family. It is incredibly contrived, beyond-words-contrived, but I still like it. I've noticed on this list that most are rather despondent towards the ideas of the contrived happy endings, stating they're too corny, silly, or unrealistic. But it's a book. It's supposed to be contrived. Happy endings are always unrealistic, considering things never end, and rarely turn out happy. Doesn't stop people from wanting the happy ending, though. This is to say, of course, whether or not Harry lives. Oh, and wouldn't it be funny if Ron and Harry had Fleur as a sister- in-law? Jim F. wrote: > THE CASE FOR HERMIONE AND HARRY > > I said I'm an H/H shipper, for one overriding reason: never have two > people been more suited to each other, perfect soulmates. Hermione > has been the person who has prepared him for his challenges; while he > is the greatest natural talent of his generation, she is the exemplar > of what hard work and application can do - a perfect yin and yang. > She understands him better than anyone else. Hitomi: Ok, the soulmates thing is pushing the envelope a bit. I just don't see it, at least not to that exaggerated point. I am again in total agreement that the sensible side of Harry does suspiciously sound like Hermione, and that she has helped prepare him. But she's helped prepare Ron (in growing up), too. I've always seen Ron and Hermione as the yin and yang - she brings Ron back to his head, and he brings Hermione back down to earth. And I've always noticed that Ron observes things about Hermione that Harry completely overlooks. If Harry is a soulmate to one, then he also the soulmate to the other. What I mean by that is Ron and Hermione BOTH balance Harry, as they balance each other. Alone, Harry has no fun with Hermione (lots of examples in Books 4 and 5), and does no work with Ron (lots of examples in Books 3 and 5. He needs them both. Jim F. wrote: > Hermione cares for him as much or more than anyone. When she asks > after Harry and Cho, what's going on there? Is she not interested in > Harry, or not aware of *how* she might care for him, or is she mature > enough to know his feelings for Cho have to be resolved, that the > risk must be run? I don't know, but I know that Harry and Hermione > love each other already. It may not be romantic love, but they are > incredibly close. Hermione with anybody else - even Ron - would be a > step backwards in intimacy. Hitomi: I agree and disagree with you. Hermione does care for Harry in a way Cho never could, as does Ron. They all three love each other deeply. That's why I always refer back to the incident with the dementors in Book 5 - the one happy thing that pulls Harry out, when other memories have failed, is the idea that he will never see Ron or Hermione again if he dies (or has his soul sucked out, same thing). They all three need each other, romantic feelings aside. Again, the scene where Hermione asks Harry about his date with Cho is nitpicked to death. I have always related to that scene as a concerned friend asking a best friend about his love life. I'm the same way with my best guy friends, and I never mean anything romantic by it all. And as I said before, Hermione never seems threatened by Cho, and never on the same level that Cho feels about Hermione. She did insult Fleur, however, when Ron showed any particular interest. She may just not have liked Fleur, but Hermione does not seem in the least bit jealous or hurt about Harry's regard towards Cho. She honestly seems to not care at all, just as long as Harry is happy - she's the one who pushed Harry to date Cho, Ron was the one who seemed more against it out of the two. And I know that when I like a guy, I do want him to be happy, but it wouldn't stop the slight resentment from showing through if he liked another girl and was discussing her with me. Hermione seems remarkably well-adjusted on the chance she may like Harry. And yes, Hermione is mature for her age, but she does have a tendency to get emotional about things, and if you'll notice, especially things concerning Ron. Ron brings that out in her; he hurts her far more quickly with barbs throughout the series, than Harry does yelling at her all through Book 5. If Harry and Hermione do get together, it will be around Book 7, because they don't act as if they are romantically interested in one another at all. If I liked Harry (and I were Hermione), especially at the ages of 13 to 15, I would not at all be acting as Hermione does towards Harry. But I would act as she does towards Ron. I think it unworthy of the trio's love for each other, to say any romantic relationship with Ron would be a step back in intimacy. Like I said, they love each other deeply, and if any romantic feelings occur between Ron and Hermione, or Harry and Hermione, then that is the way it should be. Harry would be happy for Ron in such a circumstance, I don't know about Ron if Harry and Hermione ended up together. And I hate and loathe, absolutely destest, the idea of a love triangle. It would ruin the dynamic of the trio, and it would be extrememly and uncharacteristically convoluted of JKR to do such to their friendship. Ron or Harry could make Hermione happy. I just have yet to have real proof that Hermione could make Harry happy as far as marriage and such is concerned. Jim F. wrote: > Harry has noticed her, and the subtlety of the clues make them more > convincing. In OOP, when she suggests he tell Cho how ugly he thinks > Hermione is, he says 'but I don't think you're ugly!' which was a > spontaneous letting out of his feelings. In GoF, there were true > sparks when he noticed her at the Yule Ball. These seeds are not > idly planted. They will burst out someday. Hitomi: Again, the nitpickiness. I could write the same sort of thing about Ron, and Ron showed far more interest in her than Harry did at the Yule Ball (through jealousy, of course, but that is beside the point - Harry was only interested in Cho). Again, in relation to my own experience, I always saw Harry's realizing Hermione is pretty as a friend realizing his best friend might be considered attractive. I know I find quite a few of my own friends attractive, but I would never date them. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. It could go either way. Jim F. wrote: > Harry's 'saved' Hermione, too. I don't mean physically, although he > has, but Hermione knew early that she would be a different person and > a lesser one without being in the Trio. She started out with an > affinity to Percy, but look at how the two have diverged. Because > of her adventures, because she's discovered real purpose, she's a > young woman of character and moral courage and Percy's a disgusting > sycophant. She might have been a Ravenclaw at heart when she > arrived, but there never was a truer Gryffindor now. She's seen what > bravery can do. Hermione has gained immensely from knowing Harry. Hitomi: The trio has saved each other. The trio will always be the most important relationship in the series to me - the romantic feelings just don't really matter. They each have grown and learned and loved from having been with one another. Ron with Harry, Hermione with Ron, and Harry with Hermione. Thats why I always see the ships between the three as inconsequential. JIm F. wrote: > WHAT DOES HARRY NEED? > > If Harry ends up with Ginny, he's going to have a supportive, loving > woman and family, a healing balm for all the hurts he's got and will > get. If it's Hermione, she's going to care for him in a different > way, pushing him when he needs it, tough when she has to be, > challenging him back to health. Which does he need? > > If anyone wants to argue their viewpoint based on the idea that "JKR > says so," that's weak, IMO. JKR doesn't want us to do that. She > wants us to find it in the meaning of her text. She keeps telling us > everything is there, and it is. > > I come down on the H/H side, but I won't cry for him if he ends up > with Ginny, no way. She's a great girl, and they all deserve to be > happy. Hitomi: My point exactly. And Ginny never backs down with Harry yells at her ;) JKR had this to say though, concerning the ships in Book 4: Q: "Dear Ms. Rowling, I'd like to ask if there would be a lot of romances between the characters in the upcoming books?" JKR: "Good question. I'm having so much fun writing Book 4 because for the first time Harry, Ron, and Hermoine are starting to recognize boys and girls as boys and girls. Everyone is in love with the wrong people. Let no one say my books lack realism." Let's see, that means Harry and Cho is all wrong (sorry H/C shippers), Hermione and Krum is all wrong, Ron and Fleur is all wrong, and Ron doesn't realize how he feels about Hermione, so I don't know if that is wrong as well. I also don't know if Ginny's attraction for Harry is wrong, because JKR seems to be just referring to the trio. Same with Neville/Hermione, or Neville/Ginny. Anyway, I thought it was an interesting quote, and very Austen-ish. I am, at the moment, shipping R/H, H/G (if he ends up with anyone), and Neville and Luna I don't really care. But until Book 6, perhaps, changes my mind, that's where I stand on the topic. But Ron could end up with Pansy Parkinson for all I truly care, as long as the characters end up happy. Ja ne! ~ Hitomi, who is still highly amused by Ron and Hermione, whether or not she ends up with Harry From josh24yo at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 17:29:18 2004 From: josh24yo at yahoo.com (Josh) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:29:18 -0000 Subject: Which Book Should I start With? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90644 I am the type of person that normally does not read a book AFTER I have already seen the movie. I have already seen the first two Harry Potter movies, but have never read any of the books. Will I miss anything if I start out by reading the 3rd novel? Josh From flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com Tue Feb 10 20:15:41 2004 From: flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com (Diana Walter) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:15:41 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from?/teachers In-Reply-To: <001901c3efa1$37171aa0$a6a09c18@cr390913a> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90645 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: > Carol: > > > A job that doesn't pay well? How about teaching? Potioncat: > > > How about this theory? James and Lily Potter are teachers at > > > Hogwarts. Both of them are killed and now there are two openings: > > > DADA and Potions. Snape needs a safe place and a job, so Dumbledore > > > hires him for potions. > daw: James and Lily could have been some of those married Hogwarts faculty JKR won't talk about. Alina: > The only real thing that doesn't fit for me is DADA and Potions. From what > we know, James excelled at Transfiguration and Lily as Charms. That actually did occur to me. One explanation I have is that they were the kind of people who excelled at just about everything, and could probably teach anything competently. Kinda lame, I know. But really, they probably were both good enough students across the board that one of them could teach Potions. DADA, which incorporates just about all other magical disciplines, including Transfiguration and Charms, would actually not be much of a stretch. That particular issue aside, though, another thing I like about this theory is that it would explain how James and Lily were able to evade Voldemort for over a year (during a large part of which he was probably actively looking for them) without the Fidelius Charm. Of course, living at Hogwarts would normally mean that they wouldn't have to worry about their safety at all, but maybe they suddenly did have reason to worry. Maybe Dumbledore thought he would have to leave the school for some reason. And a Fidelius Charm with a good Secret Keeper would be infallible, right? The perfect plan. Well, almost. All right, must go. Am at work. -daw From derek at rhinobunny.com Tue Feb 10 21:19:10 2004 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:19:10 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Which Book Should I start With? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040210131717.0296ebe0@mail.rhinobunny.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90646 At 09:29 AM 2/10/2004, Josh wrote: >I am the type of person that normally does not read a book AFTER I have >already seen the movie. I have already seen the first two Harry Potter >movies, but have never read any of the books. Will I miss anything if I >start out by reading the 3rd novel? Yes, absolutely. Although I think the first two movies were very good given the limitations of translating books to movies, they still gloss over or leave out a great many details from the first two novels that become important later in the series. You should definitely start the books at the beginning. :-) - Derek From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 21:19:53 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:19:53 -0000 Subject: Which Book Should I start With? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Josh" wrote: > I am the type of person that normally does not read a book AFTER I have > already seen the movie. I have already seen the first two Harry Potter > movies, but have never read any of the books. Will I miss anything if I > start out by reading the 3rd novel? > > Josh Well, I read them out of order: 1, 3, 2, 4, 5, and it was no problem at all. However, I'd still recommend reading the first one first. It intoduces a lot that the movie could not include, and you'll have a much better understanding that way. Anyway, the movies are no substitute for the books! My two knuts, Annemehr From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Tue Feb 10 21:30:37 2004 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:30:37 -0000 Subject: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90648 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > I'm not sure how far I want to go with this idea given that the HP > series is (at least in theory) intended for children, but we do have > the pairing of Hagrid's wizard father and giant(ess) mother, which > rather boggles the mind even though they were married. McGonagall > "letting her hair down" to mate with a male cat is a little harder to > swallow. But your theory could plausibly account for the origin of > centaurs (an animagus in horse form and a real horse). It seems > preferable to the alternative (a horse and a woman or a mare and a > man). Ugh. Hmm, I wasn't thinking about purposeful bestiality, just accidental, so I'm sorry for giving anyone gross images. I've been around some unfixed male dogs recently, and, well, things can "happen" very quickly. And on a purely speculative level--like you said, Rowling isn't going to address this in a children's novel--its an odd little puzzle, and might account for centaurs. -kg is imposing a rule on all camping trips I organize: No unfixed dogs. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 21:45:46 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:45:46 -0000 Subject: Which Book Should I start With? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Josh" wrote: > I am the type of person that normally does not read a book AFTER I have > already seen the movie. I have already seen the first two Harry Potter > movies, but have never read any of the books. Will I miss anything if I > start out by reading the 3rd novel? > > Josh I saw the movies then read book 3. I either read 4 then 1 and 2 or 1 and 2 then read 4. It definitely was out of order. Although I have been able to piece everything together, I recommend starting from the beginning. The books do go into more detail and the story flows better. Julie -- who usually is out of order in just about everything anyway! From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Tue Feb 10 21:48:19 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:48:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Which Book Should I start With? Message-ID: <1C77CBA1.739E36AE.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90650 In a message dated 2/10/2004 12:29:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Josh" writes: >I am the type of person that normally does not read a book AFTER I have >already seen the movie. I have already seen the first two Harry Potter >movies, but have never read any of the books. Will I miss anything if I >start out by reading the 3rd novel? > >Josh DEFINITELY!!! There are lots of little details and epsiodes that happened in the books that did not make it to the movie. There are also things in the movies that were not in the books. If you're just planning on being a casual reader, that's fine. But if you're going to be a "hard-core" fan (i.e. crazy *g*) then you'll definitely want to read the first two books so you can form opinions about characters and the plot and make predictions for the future. There are characters not even *in* the movies (like Peeves and Scabbers (c'mon...he's really not in them that much!). And besides, the books are *ALWAYS* better! *g* Oryomai From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 10 22:02:56 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:02:56 -0000 Subject: Where did the money come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90651 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "james320152002" wrote: > LizVega here: > > JKR said in an interview that James inherited the money and that > > HE DIDN'T HAVE TO HAVE A WELL PAYING JOB- so maybe they didn't > > work at all? > > Then "james320152002": > I was always under the impression that James's family just had > money. Now Siriusly Snapey Susan: I agree with this last comment. Might also explain a little more of Snape's resentment of James, no? Also, I've always liked the little theory that Bowman Wright, of *Godric's Hollow*, and inventor of the golden snitch, was an ancestor of James. That could explain where the money came from...as well as perhaps a little inate Quidditch skill? :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Feb 10 22:15:03 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:15:03 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Which Book Should I start With? Message-ID: <83.4ed1b83.2d5ab1e7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90652 In a message dated 2/10/2004 4:41:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, josh24yo at yahoo.com writes: I am the type of person that normally does not read a book AFTER I have already seen the movie. I have already seen the first two Harry Potter movies, but have never read any of the books. Will I miss anything if I start out by reading the 3rd novel? ==================== Sherrie here: A resounding YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is SOOOOO much more in the books than in the movies!! I myself didn't read the books until after I'd seen the first film (despite my eldest nephew's urgings...I HATE it when kids can give you a smug "I told you so!" ) Start at the beginning - you'll thank me! Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Feb 10 22:27:27 2004 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:27:27 -0000 Subject: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: <20040210203738.XVXD26012.out010.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90653 SnapesRaven asked: > I don't intend to imply any animagus pairings here... I just > wonder. Just for fun (and to make your head spin), imagine what > would happen if a wizard in animagus form accidentally mated with > an animal of the species they turned into. And Anne continued: > To go one further (although this possibilty definitely catapaults > the theory way out of the pg to pg-13 range the series is written > in, and into the part I sort of really don't want to think > about--at least not for the sake of a 'childs' series), when an > animagus is shapeshifted, does it actually re-write its genetic > code so that it is not just the form, but the DNA that changes? > In which case, then I would guess that yes, animagus COULD > conceivably...er...conceive...off spring with a totally different > species. But then we're back to the first question...when mom > changes, does the child change also, or does the change in the > womb's environment cause the body to reject it? Hmm, intriguing questions. We know there is a fundamental difference between the animagus tranformation and animal tranfiguration, namely, that one can keep his or her mind in the former. So obviously an animagus does not undergo a complete physiological change; the human brain, complete with stored knowledge and memories, remains intact somehow. This is further supported by the fact that Rita Skeeter is able to think perfectly clearly in beetle form, something she would never be able to do if relying on an actual beetle's brain. On the other hand, although it's never stated explicitly, I doubt Hermione fed Rita the Beetle leftovers from her own meals. The was a leaf in the jar, wasn't there? So it would seem that an animagus does undergo some internal changes. Really nothing conclusive, I guess. My opinion is that an animagus undergoes certain physiological changes that are necessary for survival (for example, respiratory system, digestive system), maintains the rest somehow (does that Poincare possible-proof cover this sort of thing? :) ), and his or her DNA remains intact (hence providing a blueprint for the return transformation). Therefore, I think that although physically capable of mating, an animagus couldn't conceive with an animal due to genetic differences. As for if an animagus is already pregnant, I agree that it doesn't seem safe to transform. The animagus transformation is a learned skill, so the baby would not change, in my opinion. And a human baby in a non- or partial-human mother just can't be good. - Corinth, who sees nothing wrong with this thread, and loves pondering the science of magic From sundancing10 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 21:28:27 2004 From: sundancing10 at yahoo.com (sundancing10) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:28:27 -0000 Subject: Lineage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90654 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mrsbrooksathome" > wrote: > > I would really be interested in knowing Harry's geneology. I recall someone saying that Lily was a mudblood... so which side was her magical parentage on? And was James a pureblood? > > > > Steph > > Lily is a Muggle-born, so there wouldn't be any *known* wizarding > heritage on either side. But because of the appearance of Mark Evans in OoP (an apparent Muggle but just the right age to come to Hogwarts next year if he, too, turns out to be a Muggle-born with Magical powers), I think that a few generations back there must have been a wizard or witch in the Evans line, maybe with Squib children who passed as Muggles, married Muggles, and produced Muggle children, so that even Dumbledore doesn't know about Lily's and Mark's magical ancestor (who would also, of course, be Harry's, Petunia's, and Dudley's ancestor). > > As for James, he wasn't a Muggle-born so his parents must have been a witch and a wizard. And since there's no evidence that either of his parents was Muggle-born, so he was probably a pure-blood (or at any rate a full-blood, if you make that distinction). As his parents seem to have been wealthy (JKR says that James's money was inherited), I'm guessing that yes, James was a pureblood. I've also wondered about this pure-blood, half-blood, mudblood distinction. In PS/SS, Draco asks Harry if his parents are 'our' kind and Harry responds that his parents are a witch and a wizard which seems to placate Draco. There are other smaller suggestions in the canon that a pure-blood is someone that had a witch and wizard as parents. But it also seems pretty clear that Lily was muggle-born and quite a big deal is made on different occasions about Neville being pureblood and Harry not. So, a pure-blood could not be simply someone born to a witch and wizard, there has to be some deeper magical lineage. Mudbloods are muggle born. Half- bloods have one magical parent and one muggle. But what would Harry be? He doesn't seem to fit the three categories that have clear definitions. He must be somewhere being pure and half, so is there a classification for this type of person with just a little muggle blood. I don't think there is any indication in the canon regarding this situation other than to say Harry is not pureblood. (The witch or wizard born to squibs is an even more interesting notion- if the squibs were from pureblood families and gave birth to magical offspring, is the off-spring then pureblood?) Jeff From belijako at online.no Tue Feb 10 23:47:02 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:47:02 -0000 Subject: Riddle House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90655 Carol wrote: I personally can't imagine Lucius "lowering" himself to pose as a Muggle or succeeding in the attempt. (Lucius with a Muggle haircut and a business suit, negotiating with Muggle real estate agents and purchasing the [Riddle] house with Muggle money? Berit replies: Well, what are lawyers/solicitors for anyway? If the current owner/buyer of the Riddle house is indeed Lucius, he would of course have made his (wizard) lawyer (who looks and dresses like a Muggle) or someone else under his command deal with the estate agent, the payment, the exhange from wizard to Muggle money and so on... Lucius wouldn't have to "lower" himself one bit; he is wealthy enough to make others do the "lowering" for him :-) Just my two knuts; I really don't have any opinion on who owns the Riddle house; though I lean towards a wizard mostly because none of the Little Hangleton Muggles have any clue as to who the mystery owner is; he stays very "invisible". I think the owner could possibly be Voldemort himself. There would have been plenty of time for him to buy it between the time of his Muggle father's death, after the two Muggle owners, till his downfall at Godric's Hollow. Why would he want to own the house of the Muggle father he hated above anyone else? Well, Voldie is first and foremost very practical-minded and he might have thought the house would come in handy one day. And it did: He used it as his headquarters the summer before Harry's fourth year. Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 23:51:49 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:51:49 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90656 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunamk03" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > Dateline NBC > June 20, 2003 > Couric: "Any snogging (kissing) with Hermione?" > Rowling: (slight frown) "Hermione and Harry! Do you think so?" > Couric: "No I'm kidding. > Rowling: "Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more potential." The actual transcript reads, Couric: "Any snogging with Hermione?" Rowling: "Hermione and Harry?! Do you think so?" Couric: "No I'm kidding. Rowling: "Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more tension there." This is classic JKR mischief from the Knight Grand Commander of the Order of the Red Herring. I think the difference is significant. Tension? What kind? > JKR: *looking through questions* No, don't like that one. Oh, I like > this one do Harry and Hermione have a date? [laughter] No. They are ? > they're very platonic friends. But I won't answer for anyone else, > nudge, nudge, wink, wink. [laughter and sound of kids going "Aaah!"] This interview is from 1999, before GoF, and I believe it reflects the state of things at that time in the story. Again, I don't believe in trying to prove anything with quotes and clues. Look at the characters, their personalities, what's happening to them as people, not cataloging incidents. I stand by what I said about Harry and Hermione growing closer. Is Hermione the kind of woman Ron wants? I don't think so. Ron's a good kid, but I don't see him wanting a challenging, high-energy woman like Hermione. He wants a woman to come home to, snuggle up to, talk about life, and raise the kids with. There isn't a thing in the world wrong with that if that's what both partners want. >I am more for H/G, it's a gut feeling Although there is no clear >indication, there are hints, like the twins talking to Harry about >how powerful she is, and the way she is not intimidated by Harry's >worst tantrums. If they don't end up together, they are going to >share a very strong friendship and Harry is going to > admire her for her courage and power We agree completely there. I prefer H/H to H/G only, repeat only, because of Harry and Hermione's intense compatability. Ginny's growing up in a terrific way and she would be a good match too. And believe me, there's nothing in the world that would delight the Weasley family (all of them) more. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Feb 11 00:08:25 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:08:25 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > >Is Hermione the kind of woman Ron wants? I don't think so. Ron's a good kid, but I don't see him wanting a challenging, high-energy woman like Hermione. He wants a woman to come home to, snuggle up to, talk about life, and raise the kids with. There isn't a thing in the world wrong with that if that's what both partners want.<< ::blinks:: Where did *that* come from? I hesitate to blame fan fic contamination, but that sounds more like Ebony's Ron in Trouble in Paradise than anything in canon. Ron's romantic interests have been attracted by two women so far: Fleur and Hermione. Both of them challenging high-energy types. Now you might think he would be happier with a different kind of woman, which is fine, but I don't see any indication from canon that that's the sort of woman he *wants*. And Molly is a high-energy challenging type as well. Or are you forgetting she's part of the Order? Pippin From starropal at hotmail.com Wed Feb 11 00:15:52 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:15:52 -0600 Subject: FILK: Under A Spell Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90658 *breaths* Okay, this is my first song in my first musical! That Scar With Feeling by Star Opal; filked from Joss Whedon's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Once More With Feeling". Dedicated to Oryomai Under a Spell To the tune of "Under Your Spell" THE SCENE: Philosopher's Stone; Chapter 4, The Keeper of the Keys: Harry and Hagrid are passing through the brick wall from the Leaky Cauldron into Diagon Alley. Harry thinks to himself about the amazing turn his life has taken in just a few hours. Harry: Always put in the shadows Subject to pain and disgrace At least the Dursleys said so I wasn't more than a waste Now what's with this sight? Envelopes taking flight I'm under a spell How else could it be That all this could happen to me? It's magic I hear tell Man built like a tree Brought me a cake eagerly Hagrid says I'm very gifted That I'm something quite rare My wishes all seem granted Power has always been there Everything I've known Challenged by what's been shown I'm under a spell What else could I do? Got a letter here that proves Addressed from a green inkwell Though I never knew Everything I dreamed was true Can hardly believe! At Hogwarts I'll arrive Finally be alive! I'm under a spell Diagon Alley Awed by everything I see Taking in every detail Now in wizardry My future's open it seems Finally believe! Finally believe Finally believe Finally believe... _________________________________________________________________ Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 00:32:16 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:32:16 -0000 Subject: Riddle House & Riddle Estate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90659 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > > Berit replies: > > Well, what are lawyers/solicitors for anyway? ... > Bboy_mn: I have always speculated that there is a substintial sector of business that specializes in acting as an interface between the Muggle and Magic world. Trading and produce companies that are in all likelihood owned by a combination muggle/magic married couple, who specialize in moving good and fresh product into the magic world. I believe there are magic farmers, but I don't believe they produce enough strawberries, apples milk, whole grains, fresh meats, etc... to meet the needs of the wizard world. I also believe there are wizard manufactures which specialize in common quality product; furniture, tools, utensils, glassware, etc...; but the more mundane 'everyday' quality of goods are probably imported from the muggle world. As well as goods and produce, there are service organizations like Solicitors, estate agents, etc... who assist magic folk when they need to deal with the muggle world. I have a hard time seeing Mr. Weasley navigating the mine fields of real estate buying in the muggle world by himself, and I say that because I suspect Arthur probably bought The Burrow from the local farm's great grandfather. So, he would certainly need muggle world help to make that transaction happen. > Berit continues: > ... I think the owner (of the Riddle Mansion) could possibly be > Voldemort himself. There would have been plenty of time for him to > buy it between the time of his Muggle father's death, ...edited... > > Berit bboy_mn: That brings up a very interesting question, it seems that in a small town like Little Hangleton, it would be known that Tom Jr. was the senior Riddle's son; and apparently his only son. So, did Tom M. Riddle ever lay claim to the Riddle Family Estate? We don't know, but just as the Dursley's would be unlikely to say NO to a pile of wizard's gold, Tom/Voldemort would be unlikely to say NO to a substantial pile of wealth which belonged to his father. He could hate is father, but most people who are ruthless and ambitious, still love money regardless of it's source. It's possible that the Riddle Estate money financed Tom M. Riddle's transformation into Voldemort. Speculation aside, the basic question is, did Tom M. Riddle ever lay claim to the Riddle Family Estate? It certianly would have been his without question. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Wed Feb 11 00:37:18 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:37:18 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90660 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Now you might think he (Ron) would be happier with a different kind of woman, which is fine, but I don't see any indication from canon that that's the sort of woman he *wants*. And Molly is a high-energy challenging type as well. Or are you forgetting she's part of the Order? Pippin Inge: So far Mollys 'part' of the Order seems to have mostly been cooking and cleaning... From belijako at online.no Wed Feb 11 00:44:23 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:44:23 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90661 Irene wrote: I am more for H/G, it's a gut feeling Although there is no clear indication, there are hints, like the twins talking to Harry about how powerful she is, and the way she is not intimidated by Harry's worst tantrums. If they don't end up together, they are going to share a very strong friendship and Harry is going to admire her for her courage and power So, what does JKR say about H/G? : Will Harry ever notice the long-suffering Ginny Weasley? JKR : You'll see... poor Ginny, eh? Berit replies: I agree with you. There are canon hints at a future romantic relationship between Harry and Ginny in OoP. For the first time, Harry learns to know Ginny more than just being Ron's little sister. They interact much more; in the train compartment, in the DA group, in the MoM... But the little detail I love the most, is how Rowling describes the way Harry and Ginny's eyes meet over a good joke... That's telling! (Sorry, don't have the page reference) Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 11 00:46:59 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:46:59 -0000 Subject: Riddle House & Riddle Estate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90662 lots of snipping > Speculation aside, the basic question is, did Tom M. Riddle ever lay > claim to the Riddle Family Estate? It certianly would have been his > without question. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn If he had claimed the Riddle fortune, wouldn't someone have recognized the possibility that the "dark haired boy" Frank Bryce had seen was in fact this son of TR Sr.? He also would have had to find a way of proving his identity and I think the people of Little Hangleton would have added the story of the son evil, wicked Sr. had abandoned in the orphanage to the story of the house. I do believe a magical person owns the Riddle house, and it would not surprise me to find out (if we ever do) that Voldy himself is the owner. I do remember though that Wormtail and Voldemort took up residence in the Crouch household in order to control the Sr. Crouch. They would not have been in the Riddle house for long, more of a stop gap. Dumbledore knew about the death of Frank Bryce and so IMO he has been at the very least watching the newspapers in the area. If he is paying attention, he must have had reason to believe Voldemort would return to the house. Though this has very little to do with who owns the house, it does indicate that it is someone magical. I still think the owner of this house will make and appearance. I think we will visit the Riddle house again! From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 00:48:27 2004 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:48:27 -0000 Subject: Can Ghost eat? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90663 I have just finished re-reading HP SS/PS for the umteenth time, and once more the same question has came to my mind. Can Ghost eat? Well, I should say, can Ghost eat for the first hundred years or so after they have died? The reason I ask this is, in SS/PS, chap 7 (the sorting hat), page 123 US, it says: "That does look good," said the ghost in the ruff sadly, watching Harry cut up his steak. "Can't you - ?" I haven't eaten for nearly four hundred years" said the ghost. Then in CoS, chapter 8, (the deathday party), page 133, it goes on to say: Sir Nicholas De Mimsy-Porpington Died 31st October, 1492 Which is 500 years since his death. If the year before he had not eaten for "nearly 400 years", did he eat during the first 100 years after his death? Fred From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 11 00:50:30 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:50:30 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90664 ---Big Snip Pippin wrote: and Molly is a high-energy > challenging type as well. Or are you forgetting she's part of the > Order? > Pippin > > Inge: > So far Mollys 'part' of the Order seems to have mostly been cooking > and cleaning... Sue here: There is at least one reference to Molly being on duty for the order so she is doing more than housework. Besides, someone has to do it and she seems the type to step in and do what needs to be done. Sound like Hermione? Sue, who is not necessarily a "shipper" but believes Molly is certainly more than a house maid! From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 00:58:00 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:58:00 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90665 > Jim Ferer wrote: > > > >Is Hermione the kind of woman Ron wants? > Pippin: > ::blinks:: Where did *that* come from? Neri now: I agree with Pippin, and I want to add: I also started my HP reading as a H/H shipper (I just didn't know at the time this is what it is called). It is just natural. Harry is the boy hero we most identify with. Hermione is the girl heroine we most identify with. Naturally we want them to be together. But I think everybody who was really reading the books as they are written, not merely putting his/her own wishes inside the characters' head, must realize the direction in which JKR is heading, and not only because of the tension/potential between Hermione and Ron. It is more than that. Both Hermione and Ron, although they really love Harry, can't relate to him in the most critical and most painful issues of his life. They can't, because they never been there. They have never been totally alone. They have never lost a parent or a close friend. They never looked Evil in the eye. They never saw or heard things that other people couldn't see or hear. They never had to doubt their own mind and their own sanity. When Harry talks about how his parents were murdered, or about his confrontations with LV, Hermione and Ron are embarrassed. They don't know what to say. They exchange silent stares between them. It is Neville, Ginny and Luna who were in those bad places, and this is why it is them, not Ron and Hermione, who can relate to Harry in his most painful moments. This has been hinted since SS/PS, but is made especially clear in OoP. So I must conclude that R/H is likely, and H/G is likely. Even H/L (which I don't really believe) is more likely than H/H. The only way I see Hermione ends up with Harry, is if she is in love with Ron and Ron dies. Only then she will be able to really understand Harry. Neri, concluding his first shipping post with an ominous mood. From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 01:29:51 2004 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:29:51 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90666 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: Inge: So far Mollys 'part' of the Order seems to have mostly been cooking and cleaning... Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; On page 371, OotP, US (chapter 17, Educational decree Number 24) "she can't say it for herself because she's on duty tonight." "On duty doing what?" said Ron quickly. "Never you mind, just stuff for the order," said Sirius. So, it seems that Molly does other things, other than "to have mostly been cooking and cleaning..." Just when 4 of her children, Hermione and Harry are there, all being children, she concentrates on their needs more. Fred From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 01:37:45 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:37:45 -0000 Subject: Which Book Should I start With? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Josh" wrote: > > I am the type of person that normally does not read a book AFTER I > have > > already seen the movie. I have already seen the first two Harry > Potter > > movies, but have never read any of the books. Will I miss anything > if I > > start out by reading the 3rd novel? > > > > Josh > > I saw the movies then read book 3. I either read 4 then 1 and 2 or > 1 and 2 then read 4. It definitely was out of order. Although I > have been able to piece everything together, I recommend starting > from the beginning. The books do go into more detail and the story > flows better. > > Julie -- who usually is out of order in just about everything anyway! Carol: There are other reasons to start from the beginning and read the books in order. One is to clear your head of what we call "movie contamination." A character may do or say something in one of the films that he doesn't do or say in the book, and you may find yourself confused because what you think you know about that character isn't consistent with Rowling's depiction of that character in the third book. The movies, because they are a different medium from the books, condense, alter, or omit scenes and dialogue, and occasionally even add scenes or conversations (the scene welcoming back Hagrid at the end of the film version of CoS is probably the most blatant example of the films getting it "wrong" from the perspective of us book fans). And there are other things--JkR's sense of humor or her manipulation of the point of view so that we're sometimes tricked into interpreting events as Harry does--that you just can't get from a film, even if it were as faithful as possible to the book. So I strongly suggest starting over from the beginning as if you'd never seen the films. You won't be worried about plot surprises--you'll know from the moment you see Quirrell what his fate is going to be, for example--but you can pay attention to other things, like the clues (and red herrings) that JKR drops, mystery-writer style, into the narrative--or the way she depicts Snape, who's a lot more complex than a casual reading of Book one (or a viewing of the films) might show him to be--or the ways the characters develop and the themes and style become more complex (and darkder) as the series progresses. The best way to see all this is to start with Book One and read the books in order, with open eyes. Carol From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Wed Feb 11 01:32:18 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:32:18 +1300 Subject: Perkins Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20040211142900.03042b20@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 90668 I have a question, Has anyone had a closer look at Perkins. I was doing a re read of GOF and this segment leapt out, so to speak. When Arthur sets up the tent he borrowed off Perkins, Harry notices that it is furnished in the same manner as Mrs Figg's house and it smells strongly of cats. No mention of cabbage smells though. Tanya From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 02:04:46 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:04:46 -0000 Subject: Riddle House & Riddle Estate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90669 Berit: I think the owner (of the Riddle Mansion) could possibly be Voldemort himself. There would have been plenty of time for him to buy it between the time of his Muggle father's death > bboy_mn: > > That brings up a very interesting question, it seems that in a small > town like Little Hangleton, it would be known that Tom Jr. was the > senior Riddle's son; and apparently his only son. So, did Tom M. > Riddle ever lay claim to the Riddle Family Estate? > > Speculation aside, the basic question is, did Tom M. Riddle ever lay > claim to the Riddle Family Estate? It certianly would have been his > without question. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Carol: I disagree that there would have been no question of Tom Jr's ownership of the house. First, if Tom's mother left town before anyone knew she was pregnant, no one would know of his existence or his name. Second, his father could have written him out of the will (perhaps in some discreet way that would not require naming him and thereby creating an awareness of his existence)--another reason for Tom to hate his father. And third, Tom would have been the prime suspect in the murder of his father and grandparents if anyone knew of his existence, and he could hardly claim any inheritance he may have had without revealing his identity. (Remember the teenage boy that Frank Bryce saw at the time of the murder? If the police knew about Tom's existence, wouldn't they have put two and two together?) My theory (okay, opinion) is that Voldemort was altogether penniless when he wandered the world trying to find the secret of immortality. He may have used his good looks to charm people into funding (or feeding) him before his looks were ruined by too many transformations, but I doubt he had any money--or a house--of his own. If he owns the house now, IMO, it would have to be through the seemingly unlikely connection of DEs and Muggles buying it for him, perhaps through the kind of business relationship that bboy suggests, but it would not be in the name of Tom Riddle, Jr., for the reasons I've already mentioned. One additional point--the new owner, who supposedly owns the house "for tax reasons," must not be named Riddle or the villagers would comment on it. Carol From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 02:35:57 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:35:57 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90670 > Irene wrote: > > I am more for H/G, it's a gut feeling Although there is no clear > indication, there are hints, like the twins talking to Harry about > how powerful she is, and the way she is not intimidated by Harry's > worst tantrums. If they don't end up together, they are going to > share a very strong friendship and Harry is going to admire her for > her courage and power > Berit replies: > > I agree with you. There are canon hints at a future romantic > relationship between Harry and Ginny in OoP. For the first time, > Harry learns to know Ginny more than just being Ron's little sister. > They interact much more; in the train compartment, in the DA group, > in the MoM... But the little detail I love the most, is how Rowling > describes the way Harry and Ginny's eyes meet over a good joke... > That's telling! (Sorry, don't have the page reference) > Neri now: I agree with Berit, but I'd say this moment is even more telling: OotP, Ch. 23 "Christmas on the Closed Ward" "'We wanted to talk to you, Harry' said Ginny, 'but as you've been hiding ever since we got back ? ' 'I didn't want anyone to talk to me,' said Harry, who was feeling more and more nettled. 'Well, that was a bit stupid of you,' said Ginny angrily, 'seeing as you don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can tell you how it feels.' Harry remained quite still as the impact of these words hit him. Then he wheeled round. 'I forgot,' he said. 'Lucky you,' said Ginny coolly. I'm sorry,' Harry said, and he meant it." This was one of my "wow!" moments when first reading the book. Remember the next two books are likely to be a battle of minds (literally!) between Harry and LV, and who has the best experience to help Harry in this? Right on, the little Weasley girl. Maybe DD will have to link Harry's and Ginny's minds with a legilimens charm so she can back him up. Now this scenario could supply some unusual romantic moments... Neri From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 11 02:47:14 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:47:14 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90671 I had sworn off SHIPping, but am going once more into the breach... Like many, I started out as a believer in H/H, then wondered about R/H after CoS. Didn't think about it much until GoF, when Harry started mooning over Cho and Hermione went to the Yule Ball with Victor. Several months ago, after a thread about Cho (mostly trashing her), another poster ? many apologies for not remembering who you are, unless it was you Hitomi? ? and I agreed that we haven't seen the last of Cho but that her romance with Harry is definitely over. The most popular theory seems to be: H/G, R/H, and possibly N/L. IMHO, Neville and Luna are horribly mismatched. Neville (at this point) needs someone to bolster his self-confidence. Luna is supremely self-confident but is mostly oblivious to others. The other two pairings could possibly work out but... Harry is now feeling totally isolated from everyone else. In a long- ago post I suggested that he would probably pair off with someone who could understand, at least partly, what it was like to confront Voldemort and experience the suffering. So Ginny move up on the short list. But, while giving a warm-fuzzy feeling, it doesn't feel quite right. Ginny does have both the self-confidence and compassion that Neville needs. As for Harry and Hermione, I have come to the conclusion that they are loving but platonic friends. They make a terrific team, but not a good couple. Ron is self-confident (mostly) but also self-conscious about his family's situation. The arguments between him and Hermione could be read as romantic interest, or as pseudo-sibling bickering. (I am reminded of my college roommate who had a very dry sense of humor. She and I would make sarcastic comments to each other, to the point that another friend expressed her sympathy that we weren't getting along. On the contrary, we still get along great after more than *cough*-years later.) So the possibility of a R/H SHIP doesn't seem as strong to me as it used to. Who could balance Ron? The self- confident, un-self-conscious Luna. Who has hinted that, while unconscious of others around her, she *has* noticed Ron. Having shaken ? not stirred ? the SHIPs, where does that leave us? Neville and Ginny, Ron and Luna. What about Harry and Hermione? Have you forgotten Victor Krum so soon? We know Hermione has kept in touch with him. We know that Charlie Weasley is recruiting members for the Order outside of Britain. Could Krum step back into Hermione's life in a bigger role? Definitely a possibility. Krum is serious, which Hermione would appreciate. He enjoys sports ;-) which would balance Hermione's academic studiousness. So what about Harry? Who says the Hero Always Gets the Girl? Ravenclaw Bookworm (ready to duck from the eggs and tomatoes flying her way, not sure if it's from her theory or her mangled quotes...) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Feb 11 02:56:30 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:56:30 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90672 > Inge: > So far Mollys 'part' of the Order seems to have mostly been cooking and cleaning...< Not entirely...and even if it was, she's still risking her life. I notice there's no Dead!Molly boggart--she's plenty brave. Pippin From editor at texas.net Wed Feb 11 03:07:11 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:07:11 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Patronus References: Message-ID: <009101c3f04c$252888a0$de5aaacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90673 I submit that Snape probably cannot perform Expecto Patronus. It's not that I doubt his power or will--but I doubt he has sufficiently happy memories. ~Amanda From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Wed Feb 11 03:21:17 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:21:17 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Patronus References: <009101c3f04c$252888a0$de5aaacf@texas.net> Message-ID: <001101c3f04e$1cf5ec20$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90674 {Amanda} I submit that Snape probably cannot perform Expecto Patronus. It's not that I doubt his power or will--but I doubt he has sufficiently happy memories. {Anne} I think I would have to agree....either that, or he has so few, (and probably very weak and hard to recall) happy memories that it makes it difficult if not impossible for him to produce a strong Patronus....by the same token though, it would not surprise me if he has somehow managed to find an alternative spell that serves just as nicely (perhaps a focus of the natural 'Shadow' within his soul--a sort of 'anti-patronus'). Or, since the Dementors feed on happy memories, and 'gift' thier victims with the worst memories they may have, perhaps he is immune because he lives with those nasty memories all the time--rather like it's hinted that Sirius has some immunity in Azkaban because he has nothing BUT awful, depressing thoughts and memories to keep him compnay--food that the Dementors don't need and won't seek out.... From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 04:01:00 2004 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 04:01:00 -0000 Subject: Controling Peeves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90675 I have been wondering why some of the students (the trio) haven't tried to find some way of controlling Peeves. Let's face it, he is not a ghost, he is apparently solid. Because in PoA, chapter 7, (the boggart in the wardrobe) page 131, US, Professor Lupin shows his class a "useful little spell" "He raised his wand to shoulder height, said "Waddiwasi!" and pointed it at Peeves." "With the force of a bullet, the wad of chewing gum shot out of the key holeand straight down Peeves left nostril; he whirled upright and zoomed away, cursing." So, we can see that Peeves is solid, so why not try to stun him or something instead of just yelling at him? Or, in OotP, chapter 18, Dumbledore's Army, page 377 - 378, US, "An ink pellet whizzed past them, striking Katie Bell squarly in the ear. Hermione watched Katie leap to her feet and start throwing things at Peeves;... The bell rang just as Peeves swooped down upon Katie and emptied an entire ink bottle over her head." This sorta reminds me of when HRH went down the trapdoor in SS/PS and the devils snare had trapped Harry and Ron. Then Hermione remembered that devils snare likes "the dark and damp" (page 278) "So light a fire" Harry choked. "Yes - of course - but there's no wood!" Hermione cried, wringing her hands. "HAVE YOU GONE MAD" Ron bellowed. "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT." As I said above, why does Katie just throw things at Peeves, why not try to stun him or something. I am sure, that in all of the thousands and thousands of books in the liberary, there has to be something that will tell you how to controll a poltragist. But it doesn't seem that anyone wants to control Peeves as of yet. What does anyone else think? Fred From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 04:07:05 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 04:07:05 -0000 Subject: Controling Peeves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" wrote: > I have been wondering why some of the students (the trio) haven't > tried to find some way of controlling Peeves. > I am sure, that in all of the thousands and thousands of books in > the liberary, there has to be something that will tell you how to > controll a poltragist. But it doesn't seem that anyone wants to > control Peeves as of yet. > > What does anyone else think? > > Fred Because he does not do any real harm? Because although he is annoying, he also brings comic relief :o)? Honestly, I don't see any need to control Peeves. I am sure any of the professors could make him shut up if they really wanted to. Alla From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 11 04:27:44 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 04:27:44 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: <001101c3f04e$1cf5ec20$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: > > {Amanda} > > I submit that Snape probably cannot perform Expecto Patronus. It's not that > I doubt his power or will--but I doubt he has sufficiently happy memories. > > > {Anne} > > I think I would have to agree....either that, or he has so few, (and > probably very weak and hard to recall) happy memories that it makes it > difficult if not impossible for him to produce a strong Patronus.... big snip It seems to me that any powerful wizard, especially one who would like to take on the position of DADA, would have to be able to produce a strong Patronus. I realize we have seen a great deal of ugliness from Snape and he does not seem to be a particularly happy person but that doesn't mean there are not things in his life that bring him pleasure. Harry conjured his very powerful Partronus on the side of the lake in POA based on the thought of his godfather, and later on the memory of his best friends. These are not really "happy", they are powerfully emotional, but not necessarily happy. I am sure that Snape has memories/people in his life that invoke in him the kind of connection Harry feels when he produces his Patronus. Remember, Harry failed to produce anything but silver mist on the memories of the most happy times in his life. This brings to mind a new thought for me. It seems that producing a Patronus is similar to what was required to expell Voldemort when he posessed Harry. It was the thought of Sirius and how much he wanted to be with him that freed Harry, much like it was the need to save Sirius at the end of POA and to be with his friends in OotP which allowed him to produce his Patronus. The Patronus is literally a light in the dark, Is this all Harry needs to defeat Voldemort (a proverbial light in the dark not necessarily a Patronus)? Sue, who started writing about Snape and wound up thinking power of light in a dark world. From erikal at magma.ca Wed Feb 11 05:56:05 2004 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:56:05 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: <021901c3f063$bd3e2160$048b1a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 90678 Berit wrote: >There are canon hints at a future romantic >relationship between Harry and Ginny in OoP. >But the little detail I love the most, is how Rowling >describes the way Harry and Ginny's eyes meet over a good joke... >That's telling! (Sorry, don't have the page reference) Neri replied: >I agree with Berit, but I'd say this >moment is even more telling: >OotP, Ch. 23 "Christmas on the Closed >Ward" >"'We wanted to talk to you, Harry' said >Ginny, 'but as you've been >hiding ever since we got back - ' > 'I didn't want anyone to talk to >me,' said Harry, who was feeling >more and more nettled. > 'Well, that was a bit stupid of >you,' said Ginny angrily, 'seeing >as you don't know anyone but me who's >been possessed by You-Know-Who, >and I can tell you how it feels.' > Harry remained quite still as the impact of these words hit him. >Then he wheeled round. > 'I forgot,' he said. > 'Lucky you,' said Ginny coolly. > I'm sorry,' Harry said, and he meant it." Ah, but you're forgot about what lead up to this scene: "It came as a slight shock when somebody hammered hard on the door a few minutes later. 'I know you're in there,' said Hermione's voice. 'Will you please come out? I want to talk to you. 'What are _you_ doing here?' Harry asked her, pulling open the door [...] 'Well, to tell the truth, skiing's not _really_ my thing,' said Hermione. 'So I've come here for Christmas.' There was snow in her hair and her face was pink with cold." (440 UK) Note that it's actually Hermione and not Ginny who's able to pull Harry out of his self-imposed exile. If Ginny knows anything about Harry then it should be clear to her that he's not about to come out by himself, yet at no point does she come pounding on his door, insisting that he come out and talk. Hermione on the other hand does this, and she wastes no time in doing so; note that her face is still red from the cold outside and that there's still snow in her hair-- seeing to Harry is the first thing she does upon arrive at Grimmauld. As for confronting Harry I was struck by this passage, also just shortly before the passage Neri quoted: "'How're you feeling?' asked Hermione. 'Fine,' said harry stiffly. 'Oh don't lie, Harry,' she said impatiently. [and then a few lines later] 'Oh, stop feeling all misunderstood,' said Hermione sharply." (441 UK) It's only after this that Ginny makes her comment about also having been possessed. I was actually quite glad that Hermione was blunt with Harry in these instances. I think that's exactly what he needed in order to pull him out of his self-pity and isolation at that point. Berit also wrote: >For the first time, >Harry learns to know Ginny more than just being Ron's little sister. >They interact much more; in the train compartment, in the DA group, >in the MoM... But Harry and Hermione also have some interesting interactions, particularly in some of the later scenes in the book such as when they meet Grawp together. Their interactions in that scene are very physical. Harry catches her before she falls at one point (607 UK), he pulls her away from Grawp when he grabs for her (614); she clings to him (614). Now Rowling could have arranged for this scene to happen in such a way that Ron could have been there as well, but she doesn't. It seems to be a pattern through the series. After all it's not the first time Harry and Hermione have been in the forest together without Ron. I found the scene reminiscent of their detention in PS in which the initial group is Harry, Hermione, and Hagrid looking for the injured unicorn (with Neville, Draco, and Fang as the other group-- Ron doesn't get detention in the book, unlike the movie). Back to OoP, they return to forest in a later chapter as well where they face Grawp for a second time and the centaurs (again, much like in PS). There too there's a very physical element to their interactions. Hermione again keeps close to Harry, grabbing his arm and such, but this bit in particular I found striking: "One of the giant's massive hands reached down. Hermione let out a real scream, ran a few steps backwards and fell over. Devoid of a wand, Harry braced himself to punch, kick, bite or whatever or whatever else it took as the hand swooped towards him and knocked a snow-white centaur off his legs" (668) Well that eared a "wow" from me. Harry's standing over Hermione with no wand, facing down a giant . He's very protective of her in this scene, much as he is at the DoM. When the group splits in two at the DoM, it's Harry, Hermione, and Neville. Why not give Ginny the spotlight if she's Harry's intented? Or why not have Hermione keep close to Ron if she's supposed to be pining for him? What we see instead is that Hermione keeps close to Harry (and not Ron) throughout the scene: she's standing next to or just behind Harry when they are facing the DEs. When they run for it, Harry grabs Hermione's robes: "He seized a handful of Hermione's robes and dragged her forwards" (694 UK) Now think about this for a second. It's life and death here and who does Harry reach for? Not Ginny, not Ron. When it's comes down to a snap decision on who he should protect, a decision based on instinct rather than on rational thought, it's Hermione he reaches for. To me that says a lot about Hermione's importance to Harry. *peers at her watch and looks distressed* Wow, I think I need to wrap this up now. Best, Erika (Wolfraven) For friendly shipping discussion join us at The Great Debate http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGreatDebate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erikal at magma.ca Wed Feb 11 05:55:33 2004 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:55:33 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: <020d01c3f063$aa20a300$048b1a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 90679 Irene wrote: >AND...WHAT DOES JKR SAY ABOUT IT? >I never supported a specific shipper, but after reading JKR >interviews, I think it is pretty clear that H/H is no go 100%, just >read what she says about it in different interviews: >Dateline NBC >June 20, 2003 >Couric: "Any snogging (kissing) with Hermione?" >Rowling: (slight frown) "Hermione and Harry! Do you think so?" >Couric: "No I'm kidding. >Rowling: "Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more potential Jim Ferer: >The actual transcript reads, >Couric: "Any snogging with Hermione?" >Rowling: "Hermione and Harry?! Do you think so?" >Couric: "No I'm kidding. >Rowling: "Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more tension there." >This is classic JKR mischief from the Knight Grand Commander of the >Order of the Red Herring. I think the difference is significant. >Tension? What kind? Erika (Wolfraven): That's is how I read it. Rowling likes toying with people. She won't lie, but she won't flat out tell you what's going on either. Yes there's tension between Ron and Hermione. That's obvious; it tells us absolutely nothing new. Does that mean Hermione returns Ron's feelings? No. Could it? Well yes, of course it could, but it doesn't have to. I know I could be wrong, that maybe I'm just trying to see what I want to see when I read at Rowling's interviews, but I think it's premature to draw any conclusions to say that a ship is "no go 100%". I don't think anything is certain at this point and I'm wary of taking anything Rowling says at face value. Irene: >Sunday Gazette-Mail >14 November 1999 >(Question) On whether Harry and his >friend Hermione will have a date when >they get older: >"No, but I won't >answer for anyone else - nudge, nudge, >wink, wink." Can you say Harry/Cho? Irene: >JKR: *looking through questions* No, don't like that one. Oh, I like >this one. do Harry and Hermione have a date? [laughter] No. They are - >they're very platonic friends. But I won't answer for anyone else, >nudge, nudge, wink, wink. [laughter and >sound of kids going "Aaah!"] Jim Ferer reponded: >This interview is from 1999, before GoF, and I believe it reflects >the state of things at that time in the story. Again, I think the date is meant to hint at Harry/Cho rather than R/H. As for the platonic comment, I agree with Jim Ferer that it reflects the state of things at that point in the series. Certainly Harry and Hermione are quite platonic... at the moment. That doesn't mean it will remain so till the end of book seven. After all, why should Rowling give away her intended ships when she hardly gives us more than crumbs about anything else that might happen in future books? Irene again: >Who am I to contradict JKR? It seems >that R/H is a more plausible scenario. >I think she is very explicit and clear >about Harry and Hermione being "quite >platonic." Explicit? Well about this quote, also from JKR: June 19, 2003 interview with Jeremy Paxman (Newsnight/BBC ): JP: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that? JKR: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories - and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3004594.stm Here's she's not willing to even debunk something like D/H which I consider very unlikely in canon. She says she doesn't want to say. So how can anything she's said in other interviews be considered anything but hinting or toying with her audience? For me to accept a JKR interview comment as sinking the H/H ship, it would have to be clear and utterly unambiguous. Thus far I've never read a comment of hers that was without loopholes, ambiguity or that wasn't limited to a particular book. Yeah, I could be being stubborn, I just think it's premature to say she's sunk any ships when, in the abovementioned interview, she says that she has no intention of doing so. >I am more for H/G, it's a gut feeling. Although there is no clear indication, there are >hints, like the twins talking to Harry about how powerful she is, and the way she is not >intimidated by Harry's worst tantrums. If they don't end up together, they are going to share >a very strong friendship and Harry is going to >admire her for her courage and power. That's very much how I feel about H/H. I can use canon for my arguments, but for me it all started with a "gut feeling". I, too, see hints of my ship throughout the series. As for Hermione, I think she too is a formidable character. She is clearly talented with magic, though in different areas than Harry perhaps. She has the courage to stand for what she believes in and is willing to stand up to her friends if she has to. As for being able to deal with Harry's tantrums, she weathered her fair share in OoP. For example, when she tells Harry to stop jumping down their throat and he actually apologises, which isn't something he does often in OoP (201 UK). And as for friendship, I'd say Harry and Hermione already have a solid friendship. As for Ginny I will say that I was glad to finally see her get over her crush on Harry, but I'd have to see a lot more develop between them for me to see their ship as realistic. One of the things I really like about Hermione is that she never treated Harry as a celebrity; she never treated his as "the boy who lived", but just as Harry. It would take some doing on Rowling part to convince me that Ginny really knows Harry as Harry. Best, Erika (Wolfraven) For friendly shipping discussion join us at The Great Debate http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGreatDebate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com Wed Feb 11 04:59:22 2004 From: flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com (Diana Walter) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 04:59:22 -0000 Subject: Which Book Should I start With? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Josh" wrote: > I am the type of person that normally does not read a book AFTER I have > already seen the movie. I have already seen the first two Harry Potter > movies, but have never read any of the books. Will I miss anything if I > start out by reading the 3rd novel? > > Josh Just don't read 4 or 5 before 3. Having come to this list at all in the first place, you're probably spoiled on most of the important points, but nearly every plot twist from the third book makes an appearance later, and the less you know about the end before you read it, the better. Otherwise, yes, do read 1 and 2; as others have said, they provide lots of helpful and interesting background you don't get from the movies. --daw, who reeeeally likes commas, in case you couldn't tell. From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Wed Feb 11 05:51:43 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 05:51:43 -0000 Subject: Animagi reproducing? (warning a bit explicite) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: > SnapesRaven asked: > > > I don't intend to imply any animagus pairings here... I just > > wonder. Just for fun (and to make your head spin), imagine what > > would happen if a wizard in animagus form accidentally mated with > > an animal of the species they turned into. > Now me (Sawsan) You know, I have had a few thoughts that trailed off into a place that I don't think JKR intended. Like, how can a Giantess "marry" a human? Well it was done apparently without trouble in Hagrid and Olympia Maxim's case. (How in the...) Anyway. Engorgement charms are available I guess. But to answer your question, perhaps it would be simpler for a male human or animagus to mate with another creature, and that creature might have semihuman to no human appearance, or possibly retain its animal appearance but think like a human? I am not sure. I think would be harder for a female to be pregnant with a semi human child. I mean with smaller animals it might be ok, but I can't see a human woman pregnant with a centaur or a stag or anything, but then again, magic is available for all sorts of cases, so it could be ok. I find this topic rather interesting. There have been stories which have cross species pregnancies, such as "Many Waters" where one of the daughters of Noah was pregnant with a Nephalim (who were Giants). It went into some detail I remember, but the girl was not magic, so I am sure it would have been easier for her if she was a witch. Anyhow, with the types of charms and potions and such in the HP universe, I don't doubt that it would be easy for cross species pregnancies to happen, but I think that it would be more difficult for Witches than wizards. ( Imagine the look on everyone's face if 19 year old Minerva McGonagall walked into her parents house holding a bundle in her arms, and it turned out to be a kitten. HMMM) I wonder if Catherine the Great was a witch? Perhaps Bane or Magorian (sp?) was a child of hers and that's why they don't like associating with humans? Well, this is indeed a very interesting topic, and I don't think we will be getting any answers soon from JKR about this subject. Sawsan From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Wed Feb 11 05:55:28 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 05:55:28 -0000 Subject: Which Book Should I start With? In-Reply-To: <83.4ed1b83.2d5ab1e7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90682 Definately start with book one because so much is left out from the movies. I did what you are thinking about (starting with book 3) and I can tell you it lost me a few places. THere are some things that happen in book 2 at the beginning that don't happen in the movie; as well as many other things that are important.Same thing with book one; many things are left out in the movies trust me. I don't want to spoil it for you, but trust us (HP readers) you need to start with book one. Sawsan From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Wed Feb 11 06:10:16 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:10:16 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90683 Pippin wrote: > ::blinks:: Where did *that* come from? I hesitate to blame fan fic > contamination, but that sounds more like Ebony's Ron in Trouble > in Paradise than anything in canon. Ron's romantic interests > have been attracted by two women so far: Fleur and Hermione. > Both of them challenging high-energy types. Now you might think > he would be happier with a different kind of woman, which is > fine, but I don't see any indication from canon that that's the sort > of woman he *wants*. And Molly is a high-energy challenging > type as well. Or are you forgetting she's part of the Order? Sawsan here: Ok I don't necessarily agree that Ron wants a low energy, snuggle bunny house wife, I think he is attracted to the Hermione/ Fleur type. But the big thing that I see is that Hermione does not seem to return the sentiment. I don't see her doing for Ron as he does for her. She seems to get annoyed quickly with him and almost seems to love him like a brother only. Harry and Hermione are getting closer, and they seem more compatible. I see Ron with someone similar to Hermione, but not the same. Hermione really hasn't shown any interest in anyone yet; though she seems more comfortable with Harry. But just to make one thing clear before I "Peeve" anyone off, I just don't see Harry or Hermione showing interest in anyone whatsoever in book 5. Ron does show that he likes Hermione, but she can tick him off, and I know this seems crazy, but the way Ron reacted to Michael Corner and Ginny, I think he treats Hermione as his sister. He seems to be the jealous type. There was a post a while back about Book vs. Perfume, which was about how Ron gave Hermione a perfume for christmas and she thought it was unusual, whereas she loved Harry's gift to her: a book. Many read this perfume present as a girly type present that Ron seemed to think was important to give Hermione, now that he has noticed her as a girl and likes her. But when I read on, he didn't go all red in the ears as usual or showed any sign of embarrassment when Hermione said his gift was unusual. He just sort took it as a regular thanks and brushed it off. If he really was so in love with Hermione, I imagine he would have turned all read and and acted a bit moody, as he usually does when he is let down or is embarrassed. OK that's enough from me Sawsan From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Wed Feb 11 06:20:55 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:20:55 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90684 Both Hermione and > Ron, although they really love Harry, can't relate to him in the most > critical and most painful issues of his life. Neville, Ginny and Luna who were in those bad places, and this is why > it is them, not Ron and Hermione, who can relate to Harry in his most > painful moments. This has been hinted since SS/PS, but is made > especially clear in OoP. > > So I must conclude that R/H is likely, and H/G is likely. Even H/L > (which I don't really believe) is more likely than H/H. The only way > I see Hermione ends up with Harry, is if she is in love with Ron and > Ron dies. Only then she will be able to really understand Harry. > > > Neri, concluding his first shipping post with an ominous mood. Sawsan now: Hmm. I don't know Neri, if we are going to think that Harry will look for someone who has been where he has and has to understand him more, I seriously dont think Ginny or Luna could make the cut either. I don't think that Harry will choose anyone by how aweful their life was so they could understand him. I don't even think Harry will be able to think about girls for a while, at least IMO not until he has fullfilled the prophesy and can rest knowing he actually can live his life. I think that shipping is hard enough now anyway because Harry has got far too much on his shoulders to worry about women, especially since he knows that he might die. I think Harry needs someone he can relate to as a person, and not as a comparison of whose life sucks more or who has had it bad. I am not trying to put words into anyone's mouth, just trying to analyse certain things that have been included in different posts from my humble perspective. Anyhow, I am not placing any bets on shipping, though I would love for H/H to happen. It seems natural IMHO. But I agree with a lot of what was said about how no one seems to understand him. Sawsan who hopes she hasn't offended anyone or made anyone angry. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Feb 11 07:48:50 2004 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:48:50 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90685 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > > It seems to me that any powerful wizard, especially one who would > like to take on the position of DADA, would have to be able to > produce a strong Patronus. "The spell I am going to try and teach you is highly advanced magic, Harry -- well beyond ordinary Wizarding Level. It is called the Patronus Charm." ... "The Patronus is a kind of positive force, a projection of the very things that the dementor feeds upon -- hope, happiness, the desire to survive -- but it cannot feel despair, as real humans can, so the dementors can't hurt it. But I must warn you, Harry, that the charm might be too advanced for you. Many qualified wizards have difficulty with it." PoA - Lupin Given that many qualified wizards have trouble with it, and it projects "hope, happiness, & the desire to survive" - 3 things I don't see Snape as being good at, I doubt he could cast a Patronus. I also doubt someone heavily into the dark arts would be able to cast it, but don't really have canon for that... --Arcum From doliesl at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 09:01:43 2004 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:01:43 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" Acrum wrote: > Given that many qualified wizards have trouble with it, and it > projects "hope, happiness, & the desire to survive" - 3 things I > don't see Snape as being good at, I doubt he could cast a Patronus. > I also doubt someone heavily into the dark arts would be able to > cast it, but don't really have canon for that... Well I could see Snape's *hope* of a better future for himself of becoming a great wizard (a dark one maybe :p), his striving to achieve academically in his school days did show he wanted to be recognized and achieve some kind of success. That is some kind of "hope for the better". And I'm sure it is his *happiness* to see Potter expelled or getting out of his life in general. And he definitely has been a "survivor" all his life: so far he has surivived his seemingly abusive childhood and humiliating school days, and most of all he survived his death eater past. Does sounds like he has strong *desire to survive* to keep him alive all along. Contrary to those who wished Snape *dead*, I have the feeling he will continue to survive till the end of the series. He's a bit too hardass to die. Well I see no reason why Snape couldn't perform a Patronus.;) D. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Feb 11 09:32:04 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:32:04 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: <009101c3f04c$252888a0$de5aaacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90687 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > I submit that Snape probably cannot perform Expecto Patronus. It's not that > I doubt his power or will--but I doubt he has sufficiently happy memories. > > ~Amanda I bet he's got at least one. He'll have danced a little jig the day James died, don't you think? Kneasy From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Feb 11 09:51:54 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:51:54 -0000 Subject: Unfinished post (was The meanings of the titles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90688 > Annemehr wrote: > > > The descriptions of the > > immediate pre- and post-burning Fawkes in CoS note that he was > very ugly (as many people complain of Harry's attitude and temper > > in OoP), yet the mature bird is very beautiful. > David: > I like the idea that fannish discontent with OOP is foreshadowed by I meant to say: I like the idea that fannish discontent with OOP is foreshadowed by Dumbledore's remark that 'It's a pity you had to see him on Burning Day' D From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Feb 11 09:59:31 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:59:31 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: <009101c3f04c$252888a0$de5aaacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90689 Amanda wrote: > I submit that Snape probably cannot perform Expecto Patronus. It's not that > I doubt his power or will--but I doubt he has sufficiently happy memories. It is possible that Snape has never been able to master the Patronus because of difficulty summoning happy memories. However, I don't believe that happy memories are integral to the spell; they are merely an accepted learning method for it. Once Harry has grasped the spell he does need to call something to mind, but 'happy memory' is IMO too simplistic a description. I believe that the spell is esentially an assertion of *identity* in the face of a predatory attempt to remove it. For the beginner, this is most easily done via a happy memory, but this is not necessarily the only way. I think Snape has a sense of his own identity in spades (there is perhaps a parallel with the way Sirius was able to resist the Dementors in Azkaban), so in principle a Patronus is perfectly possible for him. David From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 11:07:41 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:07:41 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <020d01c3f063$aa20a300$048b1a40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90691 Erika Wolfraven: "That's very much how I feel about H/H. I can use canon for my arguments, but for me it all started with a "gut feeling". I, too, see hints of my ship throughout the series. As for Hermione, I think she too is a formidable character. She is clearly talented with magic, though in different areas than Harry perhaps. She has the courage to stand for what she believes in and is willing to stand up to her friends if she has to." Actually, the amazing story of transformation and growth in this series is Hermione's, not Harry's. He's learning and becoming great, of course, but he's on a path he was set on before birth, while Hermione was on a path to become another Percy. No character has changed more. I've sometimes wondered how Percy, a disgusting sycophant, feels when looking at Hermione, a true Gryffindor heroine. I think the clues are in canon, but not in the way some use it. When I look, I see Harry and Hermione becoming more attuned to one another; Harry identifying with Hermione, and what she would say; her high degree of empathy - Hermione, empathy! - with what Harry needs, even when he's pretty unlikeable. IOW, don't go to canon looking for data points that will prove a ship, look for who the characters are becoming. That, IMO, is far more dependable than JKR's love of misdirection. The gut feelings that come from reading canon this way are more dependable that trying to play CSI:Hogwarts on the text. Erika: "As for being able to deal with Harry's tantrums, she {Hermione] weathered her fair share in OoP." Yes, and more than that. She's able to deal with Harry's fame and the spotlight without it screwing up her head; she's even smart about using it. Of course, Ginny might well be able to do that, too. The one thing you can't do with H/H is to promote it by running down Ginny. I really like the way she's growing up, integrating her brothers into herself without becoming a female version of them, brave, and seemingly self-assured. If Harry ended up with her, I wouldn't shed a single tear. She's a great girl. From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Feb 11 11:35:12 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:35:12 -0000 Subject: Can Ghost eat? In-Reply-To: <200006162029.03338.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > > Fred asked: > > The reason I ask this is, in SS/PS, chap 7 (the sorting hat), page > > 123 US, it says: > > "That does look good," said the ghost in the ruff sadly, watching > > Harry cut up his steak. > > "Can't you - ?" > > I haven't eaten for nearly four hundred years" said the ghost. > > > > Then in CoS, chapter 8, (the deathday party), page 133, it goes on > > to say: > > Sir Nicholas De Mimsy-Porpington > > Died 31st October, 1492 > > > > Which is 500 years since his death. > > If the year before he had not eaten for "nearly 400 years", did he > > eat during the first 100 years after his death? > > He was trying to do a joke by substracting a century? I see this very OOC for > Nick. > > You know the commonly accepted answer, that it's a flint. It is difficult to > explain if taken at face value, so only (very wild) speculation here. > > Maybe he died twice, first as human and later as vampire. He'd be the > strangest ghost in history, but it explains eating after dying(if vampires > die to become so, of course). > > Maybe not all ghosts are inmediately aware that they are dead and he is the > extreme case, he needed 100 years so the period he remembers as not eating is > 400 years. > > Maybe ghosts can 'eat' in some sense for a given period. They usually feed of > blood. I'm talking of two cases I recall: > a) Japanese (the Eye) and Chinese (I believe, but I don't trust the source of > the information very much, it is White Wolf) > b) Greek (the Golden Fleece, Robert Graves, 1944) > > Silmariel As a matter of fact, in COS, the ghosts do have food at the party - disgusting and smelly so they can taste it. They don't seem to actually consume it, but they can taste it if it's "strong" enough. Sue B From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Feb 11 11:37:26 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:37:26 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: <200006161910.28171.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90694 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > > > Amanda: > > > I submit that Snape probably cannot perform Expecto Patronus. It's not > > > that I doubt his power or will--but I doubt he has sufficiently happy > > > memories. > > > > > > > Kneasy: > > I bet he's got at least one. > > > > He'll have danced a little jig the day James died, don't you think? > > > > *chuckle* Slytherin won the House cup 7 years in a row :) > > And I've got the feeling that while he disscusses Quidditch with MacGonadall > he's happy. > > silmariel But it doesn't actually have to be a *positive* happy thought - remember the happy thought Harry has while producing a Patronus for his OWL? :-) Sue B From naama_gat at hotmail.com Wed Feb 11 12:13:34 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:13:34 -0000 Subject: Can Ghost eat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90695 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: > > As a matter of fact, in COS, the ghosts do have food at the party - > disgusting and > smelly so they can taste it. They don't seem to actually consume it, > but they can taste > it if it's "strong" enough. > If you reread that part, you'll see that it is said, in fact, that they can *almost* taste it. Which is a tragic-comic way of saying that they absolutely and inhrently cannot taste, eat, or otherwise participate in living. The dead are dead. Naama From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Wed Feb 11 12:28:30 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:28:30 -0000 Subject: (FILK) An Amazing Room Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90696 This is Dobby's reply to Harry's filk request for a room which I posted yesterday. An Amazing Room (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _All I've Got To Do_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle02.html Dedicated to Constance "Gutter Mind" Vigilance Dobby: You ask if I - I know of some place, yeah I tell you I do All of the House Elves know a place where I could show Called the Come-And-Go Room Sometimes there - sometimes not there, yeah An amazing room But it only appears when the need's severe All things are there for you I have taken Winky whenever she's drunk way too much And I've found antidotes and Elf-beds and such That's right where Winky was sent, yeah The Room of Requirement And when Filch - runs short of supplies, yeah He goes to this room And he finds the place filled with new materials Such as soap, mops and brooms Harry: And what if you really had to use the toilet a lot Would you find the room stocked with fine chamberpots? It sounds like the spot we need, yeah When can you take me, Dobby? Oh! I just can not wait to see! -Gail B...reelin' and-a rockin', rollin' 'till the break of dawn. From sydenmill at msn.com Wed Feb 11 13:02:47 2004 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:02:47 -0000 Subject: Perkins In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20040211142900.03042b20@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90697 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > I have a question, Has anyone had a closer look at Perkins. I was doing a > re read of GOF and this segment leapt out, so to speak. > > When Arthur sets up the tent he borrowed off Perkins, Harry notices that it > is furnished in the same manner as Mrs Figg's house and it smells strongly > of cats. No mention of cabbage smells though. > > Tanya Bohcoo: Hi Tanya! I've copied a post of my own, #73912, to direct you to a couple of relevant passages about Perkins: I think Perkins from Arthur Weasley's office and good old Mrs. Figg are an "item." OOP, ch. 7, pgs. 133-134: Description of Perkins: "'...ah, Harry, this is Perkins.'" (Mr. Weasley says to Harry by way of introduction in his office at the Ministry.) "A stooped, timid-looking old wizard with fluffy white hair had just entered the room..." SS, ch. 2, pg. 22: Description of Mrs. Figg: The "old lady who lived two streets away" from the Dursleys who made Harry look at "photographs of all the cats she'd ever owned" when he was forced to stay with her during absences by the Dursleys. This establishes that Mrs. Figg and Perkins are age-contemporary -- and, that she has cats. GOF, ch. 7, pg. 80: The Romance: "'I borrowed this from Perkins at the office. . .'" (Arthur Weasley, speaking to the kids at the World Cup campgrounds in reference to one of their tents.) "Oddly enough, it was furnished in exactly the same sort of style as Mrs. Figg's house: There were crocheted covers on the mismatched chairs and a strong smell of cats." Can you picture them, in their wonderful golden-yearness, camping together under the stars? I think Mrs. Figg will probably figure significantly in the coming story line and, therefore, the relationship between Perkins and Mrs. Figg will also play a role. Bohcoo From joj at rochester.rr.com Wed Feb 11 13:49:19 2004 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (joj) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:49:19 -0500 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: <002b01c3f0a5$d92beaf0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 90698 > Sawsan said: > Hmm. I don't know Neri, if we are going to think that Harry will look > for someone who has been where he has and has to understand him more, > I seriously don't think Ginny or Luna could make the cut either. > I don't think that Harry will choose anyone by how awful their life > was so they could understand him. Joj says: I don't think a requirement to being with Harry would be having to have gone through as much as him. Who would ever fit that bill? At least Hermione knows Harry very well, and knows what he's gone through, knows how he feels and understands it. She's witnessed some of it first hand. > I don't even think Harry will be > able to think about girls for a while, at least IMO not until he has > fulfilled the prophesy and can rest knowing he actually can live his > life. That's one of the reasons I think it will be Hermione for Harry. Can you see him getting all worked up over asking a girl to a dance or asking a girl out anymore? He's not going to be worrying about the usual teenage things anymore. Besides, unless they're in Gryffindor and in his grade, he really doesn't see them very much. How much time did Harry spend with Cho between the kiss and the date? Not much! Hermione fits the bill, because it would be complex, and cause all sorts of ramifications within the trio. Ramifications that could impact the story on a much bigger level. These aren't romance novels. For JKR to really do shipping with the main characters, there has to be more to it than simple romance for the sake of romance. She's all about angst! Even if she does R/H eventually, I believe Harry will be brought into it in some fashion, and I look forward to seeing JKR's cleverness here. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kirklander368 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 11 10:22:35 2004 From: kirklander368 at hotmail.com (burnoweatherhead) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:22:35 -0000 Subject: Basilisks and weasels Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90699 After a thread on LJ which introduced the mythology of basilisks and weasels (hp_theories, crediting Jamie/phantom_heart) I researched this some more and discovered the following, which I'm presuming hasn't been posted before and isn't well known. (pace Jamie)Of the three things that can kill a basilisk, weasels are its main enemy (the others are a cock crowing and the herb 'rue, a plant that could withstand the basilisk's poison breath, and it was used by weasels to heal themselves if they were injured during battles with this monster). Cue some significant stuff to be used in the Last Battle of Book 7? >From classical times the notion has existed that basilisks' skin would repel snakes and spiders. It is said that such a skin was hung in a temple to Apollo and in another to Diana to ward off swallows as well as snakes and spiders. On exploring this further, I think some of this might turn out to be crucial to the coming books - 'basilisk' is Greek for 'little king', which is in Latin 'Regulus'. Do we now know what happened to Sirius' younger brother?! The weasel thing is affirmed so strongly in research, with quotes from Democritus and Pliny, that I think Ron is going to be the key to defeating LV. JKR has said that there are things in Book 2 she hid to be revealed in later books. I think this is the main one. Had Ron not been stuck behind the fall of stones, he would have done the job. If Regulus was the 'little king', then LV is the great king (and the basilisk also represents 'the evil one' in passages of Isaiah) and Ron will defeat it with the sacrifice of himself. (My own theory is that he'll do it with polyjuice potion, pretending to be Harry.) Interestingly there's also stuff about the unnatural birth of the basilisk in Isaiah too. One site said 'The birth of the basilisk is anomalous. It is not part of a normal reproductive cycle, but is, rather, a genetic fluke, producing a monster. And the quote is from Is.59:5 ...they conceive trouble and give birth to evil. They hatch the eggs of vipersand spin a spider's web. Whoever eats their eggs will die and when one is broken, an adder [or basilisk] is hatched. In older translations the word is basilisk, but it was thought to be a hooded king cobra (whose traditional enemy is the mongoose). (I also think this fits in with the 'Knight2King' theories, and the 'Weasley is our king' theory.) Anyone wanting to explore this further can just google for 'weasel mythology basilisk'. Burno From rredordead at aol.com Wed Feb 11 14:45:10 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:45:10 -0000 Subject: Riddle House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90700 > Carol wrote: The third never lived there but reputedly kept it "for tax >purposes." The >impression created by those words is that the >current absentee owner is a rich Muggle, >but people on this board >have speculated that it's really Lucius Malfoy, who has kept it >for LV all these years. I personally can't imagine Lucius "lowering" himself to pose as a Muggle or succeeding in the attempt. Mandy here: Posing as a Muggle - no, but using muggles for his advantage - yes. I agree that the Riddle House appears to be owned by a Muggle, but I also believe that the estate is controlled by Mr. Malfoy and he doesn't needs to pose as a Muggle in order control to do it. All he needs are a few `interests' in the Muggle world, and even though he hates Muggles with a passion, he would be very naive and stupid to ignore the larger and more influential world that exists outside the world he lives. Whether he likes it or not, and I'm sure he resents every moment of it, Lucius has to recognize the fact that the smaller WW has to co-exists inside the greater (and more powerful in some ways) Muggle world. Especially has LV was born a half blood and lived as a muggle orphan until 11. If we are right in our assumption that Lucius is LV right hand man, it stands to reason that Malfoy has to have had extensive contact with the muggle world of the young Tom Riddle. Of course, despite the fraternization of Lucius and LV with the Muggle world it doesn't change or stop their illusions of grandeur, and I'm certain once both of them have created a WW they can be truly proud of, they'll turn their attentions toward changing the balance of power with muggle world. I believe Lucius has muggle money invested in non-wizarding banks in Britain and overseas. It would be a conveniently way for him to hide money from Gringotts bank and the MoM. He most likely has investments in muggle, as well as wizarding, property and I have no doubt he employs a Muggle Barrister to `take care' of all those interests. It would be so very easy for a muggle Barrister to control the Riddle Estate for Lucius, leaving behind absolutely no paper trail to connect back to our slippery friend Lucius. Just because Lucius Malfoy despises Muggles, it doesn't mean he's not raping and pillaging the Muggle World to his advantage. Cheers Mandy From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Feb 11 14:53:21 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:53:21 -0000 Subject: Molly's role (was Ship predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90701 Inge: > So far Mollys 'part' of the Order seems to have mostly been cooking > and cleaning... Others have pointed out that she does more. But this misses part of the point. Harry understands that 'cleaning' in a house that has been occupied by dark wizards is more akin to a war. Cleaning No. 12 Grimmauld Place is *important* in the context of a conflict with Voldemort, when his former sympathisers lived there. It's not Molly's fault that the entity that mattered in the end was Kreacher, and not an artefact resembling Riddle's diary. Molly has taken on a responsible defensive role in relation to the wider purposes of the Order. David From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 15:52:58 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:52:58 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90702 > Sawsan now: > > Hmm. I don't know Neri, if we are going to think that Harry will look > for someone who has been where he has and has to understand him more, > I seriously dont think Ginny or Luna could make the cut either. > > I don't think that Harry will choose anyone by how aweful their life > was so they could understand him. I don't even think Harry will be > able to think about girls for a while, at least IMO not until he has > fullfilled the prophesy and can rest knowing he actually can live his > life. > > I think that shipping is hard enough now anyway because Harry has got > far too much on his shoulders to worry about women, especially since > he knows that he might die. I think Harry needs someone he can relate > to as a person, and not as a comparison of whose life sucks more or > who has had it bad. I am not trying to put words into anyone's mouth, > just trying to analyse certain things that have been included in > different posts from my humble perspective. > > Anyhow, I am not placing any bets on shipping, though I would love for > H/H to happen. It seems natural IMHO. But I agree with a lot of what > was said about how no one seems to understand him. > > Sawsan > who hopes she hasn't offended anyone or made anyone angry. Neri now: Not angry at all 8-) but I think you slightly misinterpreted me there. I certainly did not write that Harry should choose the girl who suffered most. I just said that Neville, Ginny and Luna understand Harry in a much deeper level than either Hermione or Ron, because they have a notion of where he was and how he felt. It is interesting, because H/H seems to be the most natural ship, not only for you and me as readers, but also for JKR. Harry is her hero, her brainchild, and Hermione is her alter ego. What would be more natural than ship them together? And yet it seems JKR took a different direction. Why? We know that JKR "had seen death" first during her late 20's (she had to watch her mother dying of multiple sclerosis, a horrible disease that degrades the victim before it kills her). Perhaps she realized that in her teen, before she went through this, she wouldn't have been proper for someone like Harry. She would have been afraid of the darkness in him, of all the pain and death in his memories. Or maybe JKR has an author's guilty conscience? I mean, she certainly loves Harry, but as the "ruthless author" she made him suffer so much, so maybe she feels that she (or her alter ego, Hermione) doesn't have the right to him. That he should end up with a girl who also suffered by the hand of the ruthless Author. Neri From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Feb 11 16:55:24 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:55:24 -0000 Subject: Which Book Should I start With? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Josh" wrote: > > I am the type of person that normally does not read a book AFTER I > have > > already seen the movie. I have already seen the first two Harry > Potter > > movies, but have never read any of the books. Will I miss anything > if I > > start out by reading the 3rd novel? > > > > Josh > Julie: > I saw the movies then read book 3. I either read 4 then 1 and 2 or > 1 and 2 then read 4. It definitely was out of order. Although I > have been able to piece everything together, I recommend starting > from the beginning. The books do go into more detail and the story > flows better. Geoff: I started my HP acquaintance with the second film, then the first film and then the books in the correct order. I would give you the advice which the King gave to the White Rabbit in "Alice in Wonderland"..... Gebin at the beginning, continue until you reach the end and then stop....! (Sent from a cybercafe on Malta) From entropymail at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 17:08:13 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:08:13 -0000 Subject: Controling Peeves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90704 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" > wrote: > > I have been wondering why some of the students (the trio) haven't > > tried to find some way of controlling Peeves. Entropy: Okay, I don't think the problem isn't that Harry, Ron, and Hermione don't want to control Peeves. I think JKR does not want to control Peeves! I'm re-reading GOF right now, and noticing some similarities between Peeves' pranks and the Triwizard Tournament tasks. For instance, Peeves absolutely soaks everyone with water balloons as they return from their summer holiday; later, he upturns a pot over Harry's head. Seems to mirror the second task (at the lake) and Fleur's bubble-head charm. The next time we see Peeves, he is tossing chairs at Harry, pretending that he wants him to. For the first task, Harry desperately tries to learn the Summoning Charm in order to retrieve his broomstick. I'm only about halfway through, so I'm going to keep an eye out for Peeves. Has anyone else noticed that Peeves foreshadows other things in earlier books? Let me know. :: Entropy :: From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 11 18:39:04 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:39:04 -0000 Subject: Which Book Should I start With? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > > I would give you the advice which the King gave to the White Rabbit > in "Alice in Wonderland"..... > > Gebin at the beginning, continue until you reach the end and then > stop....! > Ha Ha Ha!! As if we COULD stop! Isn't that why we're all here, engaged in endless theorizing and frequently talking ourselves around in circles? We CAN'T stop!!!! ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From BrwNeil at aol.com Wed Feb 11 02:32:10 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:32:10 EST Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: <149.218a262d.2d5aee2a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90706 I can't believe I've let myself be drawn into this discussion, but here goes. My first question is which came first, ships or fanfiction? I can't believe that anyone upon first reading SS or CoS even thinks about ships unless they have been brainwashed by fanfiction. These are 11 and 12 year old kids. They will be 17 when they leave Hogwarts. What percentage of people in the world marry someone from their graduating class? Yet we have determined that Harry and Ron must pick their future mates from either their class or the one directly behind them. Personally I don't think Rowling will link anyone in a till death do us die relationship in the series. It wouldn't be good for sales. Perhaps only if there is an epilogue. As for hints in the story; there were as many Luna/ Ron and Luna/Harry hints as there were any other kind. There were even Nevile/ Ginny hints. Most hints are what we want to read into them. I think a Harry/Hermione relationship could make it. I also think Harry and Ginny would work. Shoot me, but I think even Harry and Luna could make it because in all these situations they complement each other. I think we've only seen the surface of Luna. A marriage between Ron and Hermione in the real world would never make it. Some say their fighting is funny in the story and it is, but would it be funny in real life. Hermione wants to free elves, Ron looks down on them and would dread their being free. Who would do his laundry? Hermione is a super achiever and Ron is happy to get by. In a relationship between Ron and Hermione, they could never be equal partners. She excels him in every way. Could Ron accept that. Forget the hints and look at the personalities of the characters. Ron and Hermione wouldn't even be friends if Harry wasn't there as a buffer zone. Neil From mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk Wed Feb 11 10:21:23 2004 From: mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk (mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:21:23 +0100 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1076494883.402a02239a1e0@horde.scannet.dk> No: HPFGUIDX 90707 Kneasy: > I bet he's got at least one. > > He'll have danced a little jig the day James died, don't you think? I absolutly don't agree with you here. Maybe he could have danced and been very happy when James died, but we have to remeber that James once saved Snape from Lupin as a werewolf. Would anyone feel happy when a person who saved you from the death die? I don't think so - even not if you hate the person that much! and I dare say that Snape and Potter hated each other :-) I actually think Snape feels very bad because he wasn't able to save Potter too. Anette From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 11 19:27:07 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:27:07 -0000 Subject: Perkins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90708 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > > When Arthur sets up the tent he borrowed off Perkins, Harry notices > that it > > is furnished in the same manner as Mrs Figg's house and it smells > strongly > > of cats. No mention of cabbage smells though. > Bohcoo: > Hi Tanya! I've copied a post of my own, #73912, to direct you to a > couple of relevant passages about Perkins: > > I think Perkins from Arthur Weasley's office and good old Mrs. Figg > are an "item." > > Can you picture them, in their wonderful golden-yearness, camping > together under the stars? > > I think Mrs. Figg will probably figure significantly in the coming > story line and, therefore, the relationship between Perkins and Mrs. Figg will also play a role. Bookworm: A purrfectly good connection. The only issue I see with it is that Harry has spent a lot of time at Mrs. Figg's house when the Dursleys wanted to get rid of him for a while. Wouldn't he have noticed some overlooked item, or indication that a man either lived at the house or spent a lot of time there? To completely sanitize the house everytime Harry was there would take a lot of effort. Ravenclaw Bookworm From erinellii at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 20:00:47 2004 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:00:47 -0000 Subject: Can Ghost eat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90709 naama wrote: > If you reread that part, you'll see that it is said, in fact, that > they can *almost* taste it. Which is a tragic-comic way of saying > that they absolutely and inhrently cannot taste, eat, or otherwise > participate in living. The dead are dead. Erin: Or possibly that the one ghost who said "almost" had just passed the century mark, and was therefore unable to taste. HRH weren't asking him about the ability of all ghosts to taste food, just his own. Personally, I believe that some ghost, at some time, must have been able to taste the food or they wouldn't bother having it, or even if they did, wouldn't have thought up letting it rot like that. I think it's a pity they didn't ask Myrtle. Erin From senderellabrat at aol.com Wed Feb 11 20:08:02 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:08:02 -0000 Subject: Which Book Should I start With? In-Reply-To: <83.4ed1b83.2d5ab1e7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 2/10/2004 4:41:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > josh24yo at y... writes: > I am the type of person that normally does not read a book AFTER I have > already seen the movie. I have already seen the first two Harry Potter > movies, but have never read any of the books. Will I miss anything if I > start out by reading the 3rd novel? > ==================== > Sherrie here: > > A resounding YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is SOOOOO much more in the books > than in the movies!! I myself didn't read the books until after I'd seen the > first film (despite my eldest nephew's urgings...I HATE it when kids can give you > a smug "I told you so!" ) > > Start at the beginning - you'll thank me! > Me: I had to respond to this one. I was in the same boat. I was *whisper* anti potter *hanging head in shame* for so long. A couple of friends of ours brought over SS and tried to get us to watch it. I watched a bit of it then fell asleep. Took me several tries to get through it. I couldn't help but think how LONG it was. Then, one day I just watched the entire thing and my interest was REALLY sparked. I got all 4 books that night read them all and reread them. I had just finished book 4 for the first time when COS came out. You miss so much not reading all the books. I wouldn't go out of order either, but that's just me. Don't rely on the movies for your info alone. Granted, they did a good job, there's just so much they CANT get into that's really important. Plus there's a few really good laughs in them. Sen Who about died laughing when thinking of pigs in wigs. From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Feb 11 20:10:47 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:10:47 -0000 Subject: Controling Peeves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" wrote: > I have been wondering why some of the students (the trio) haven't > tried to find some way of controlling Peeves. Carolyn: If you search back in the archives there are some really interesting posts as to what Peeves really is - basically, that he is an emanation of the mischevious trouble-making spirits all around him (ie the kids, mainly). On this line of thought, the trio especially would not be able to control him, just make him worse. Perhaps the teachers don't do anything about him because they regard him as a healthy kind of litmus test, that all the kids are behaving pretty normally. If he started to fade away and stop misbehaving, its an early warning for them that something's up. A bit of canon to support this is the passage in GOF at the Yule Ball, where Fleur is explaining to the dazed Roger Davies that if they had a poltergeist at Beauxbatons, "e' would be expelled like zat". The Beauxbatons students are noticeably better behaved than the Hogwarts pupils (standing up when Mdme Maxime enters etc); probably a poltergeist would have a thin time of it there. From senderellabrat at aol.com Wed Feb 11 20:20:13 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:20:13 -0000 Subject: Nagini Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90712 Does anyone else think Nagini could possibly be another basalisk? I think she could be a baby basalisk (not yet mature) because of her size - a measley 12 ft (GOF) and the fact Frank Bryce was also not killed or petrified when he saw her in that hallway. I think she could be, rather than a large snake, because if Voldything is having her milked to supply him with nourishment, then she's got to have some sort of special powers. I don't think your run of the mill snake would be up to par. I've been thinking about this since I reread #2 for the 8th time recently. Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I was just wondering if I'm way off or if I could possibly have something. Sen Coming out of reread induced lurkdom From pulpficlet at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 16:51:11 2004 From: pulpficlet at yahoo.com (pulpficlet) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:51:11 -0000 Subject: Which Book Should I start With? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90713 Josh wrote: >I am the type of person that normally does not read a book AFTER I >have already seen the movie. I have already seen the first two >Harry Potter movies, but have never read any of the books. Will I >miss anything if I start out by reading the 3rd novel? Hi, Josh I think you can read the books in any order you like. It is totally up to you. Each of the books (except the fifth book) starts out with a summary of the important events from earlier books, so you won't be totally lost. On the other hand, if you read the third and fourth books right away without reading the first two books, you will probably miss out on the big plot twist in the fourth book because the movies don't focus on the foundations of those plot twists. I won't tell you what it is, since you haven't read the books yet. Have you thought about maybe listening to the books on tape? I have all of the books on tape, and that might be a nice short cut if you don't want to read them. Or you could just read the Lexicon (I think there is a link on this group's home page). The Lexicon is great. Paula From pulpficlet at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 16:57:30 2004 From: pulpficlet at yahoo.com (pulpficlet) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:57:30 -0000 Subject: Molly's role (was Ship predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90714 Inge: > > So far Mollys 'part' of the Order seems to have mostly been > cooking > > and cleaning... David wrote: > But this misses part of the point. Harry understands > that 'cleaning' in a house that has been occupied by dark wizards > is more akin to a war. I mean no disrespect to anyone who cleans for a living or a hobby, but I thought Molly's role as cleaner wasn't important at all. She seemed to need a lot of help and fail at certain parts of this job. There seemed to be little risk involved, especially compared to the risk other members of the Order faced. I also wasn't impressed that she was saddled with the cooking chores. Paula From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 20:09:47 2004 From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (Sarah) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:09:47 -0800 Subject: Controling Peeves References: Message-ID: <003101c3f0db$004dd230$9701a8c0@odyssey.local> No: HPFGUIDX 90715 > Entropy: > Has anyone else noticed that Peeves foreshadows other things > in earlier books? Sarah: PS/SS: None of what Peeves does in this one rings a bell for me, but I could be missing something. CoS: Peeves calls Myrtle over at the party and introduces her to to the trio. PoA: Peeves sings a song about "Loony Lupin." (Loony = lunacy = intermittent insanity driven by phases of the moon.) OotP: Almost everything Peeves does seems concerned with ink. Something to do with Umbridge's quill? I wondered if this is directing us to look more closely at the quill, that it could have more dire results than just the immediate. Harry's attitude doesn't help him learn Occlumency, but can carving "I must not tell lies" in his hand with a Dark object really be that conducive either? At one point Peeves is juggling bottles of ink. He drops them and they smash. Like prophecies? Sarah From imontero at iname.com Tue Feb 10 21:50:04 2004 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:50:04 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90716 > Kitten says, > I'm not a Shipper, IMO Hermione, Ginny, and Luna are great girls, > but I just don't see them as Harry's, so don't think that I'm weak > and trying to argue my viewpoint by saying JKR Said so, but If JKR > wants us to find it in the meaning of her books, why in interviews > is she still hinting at a Ron/Hermione relationship? Irene: I agree 100% with Kitten. If JKR did want us to find it out all by ourselves in her texts, why on earth is she always hinting at R/H ship and dismising H/H as "only platonic" relationship. I don't think this is weak, as I said before: She is the writer, she is the God of HP World... If this is weak evidence, I don't know what can be considered as "strong evidence"... From shannayarbrough at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 20:36:16 2004 From: shannayarbrough at yahoo.com (Shanna Yarbrough) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:36:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <1076527642.2571.75981.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040211203616.6672.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90717 Neri had a thought-provoking point: "It is interesting, because H/H seems to be the most natural ship, not only for you and me as readers, but also for JKR. Harry is her hero, her brainchild, and Hermione is her alter ego." But I think JKR's love of Harry would preclude her from setting him up. He's her baby! No witch is going to be good enough for her baby! If Hermione reminds JFK of herself at that age, all the more reason for her not to be romantically paired with Harry: they are already too close -- to add any sort of sexual tension would be a little profane. And I'm fairly new to the list and haven't read through the entire archive, but has the case been made here for the fact that Ron and Hermione seem to already be dating as of OotP? Harry's oblivious, but every time he enters a room, Ron and Hermione are huddled together or exchanging glances, having this entirely OTHER relationship from the one the Trio used to share. In GoF the balance was, if anything, tipped in the Harry and Ron direction; it was all about Harry and Ron, how their friendship was the chief joy in Harry's life with Hermione rounding it out, but after a summer at 12 Grimmauld, it's Ron and Hermione who are making Harry the third wheel. This seemed pretty clear to me, as Ron and Hermione kept very quiet, didn't they, about their love lives throughout OotP despite everyone else jockying for hormonal position. When Harry's interested in Cho, Ron doesn't mention who he's hot for; when Harry kisses Cho (or is kissed by her), Ron is not jealous (as he always is when Harry gets to some milestone first) but full of glee and "that-a-boy!" excitement. No one knows, but I thought one of the big, dramatic subtexts of Book Five was the fact that Ron and Hermione never TOLD Harry about their relationship, and that was going to eventually come back to haunt them (because not telling Harry something seems to be the quickest way to get on his bad side). Waiting for the big confession and Harry's CAPITAL LETTERS, Shanna From Justine74 at aol.com Wed Feb 11 04:14:08 2004 From: Justine74 at aol.com (Justine74 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:14:08 EST Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: <46.4694cc68.2d5b0610@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90718 Kitten signed off: > Kitten... > Who thinks Harry should end up with a total ghost character, like > Susan bones, or Sally Anne Perks, Blaise Zabini, Hannah Abbott. I > guess you do ship who you Identify with...As I go back into lurkdom Well from one lurker to another, I could not agree more. One of the strongest impressions I personally received from OOTP, with its borderline post-traumatic/definitely depressed Harry, its central character death, and its slight sullying of previously "above-reproach" characters (from James to Dumbledore to even Molly), is that (1) JKR wants to inject a healthy dose of realism in these books whenever she can and (2) that she wants to continually shake up things in Harry's world, thereby throwing the audience off whenever she can. That's why, at this point, I don't think that the "Big 6" of H/H/R/G/N/L are going to neatly pair up with one another. I mean there are definitely good arguments that can be made for H/H, R/H, H/G, R/L and N/G, but I don't know ... I suppose this is more of a gut feeling that anything else, but JKR seems so willing to take several of her characters, particularly Harry, to such dark, painful places at times, that I just don't see her ending on a perfectly neat note like R/H and H/G, where everyone is all happily Weasley forever. Also in terms of her fondness for a certain level of realism, though getting together with one's friend's sister or one's best friend is certainly not unrealistic, there are certainly a lot of other people in the world to choose from. I see her recognizing this by having Harry expand his sphere of friendships outside of Gryffindor with the DA. And keeping all this "bringing in new people into Harry's life" and "shaking things up" thoughts in mind, I just can't shake this "Harry falls for Susan Bones in Book 6 or 7" feeling that I got after reading OOTP. Everytime I mention it to someone I know who reads the books they always have a good laugh, and so do I, because I know the theory is definitely out of the mainstream to say the least . I mean there is certainly nowhere near the canon support for it as there would be for a H/H, H/G or even H/L pairing. But at the same time what JKR does with Susan Bones in OOTP is very similar to what she did with Cedric Diggory in Book 3 and Cho Chang in Books 3 and 4. In the case of latter two, the initial introduction just seemed almost superfluous, but each had a tidbit of additional (and later useful) information, like Cedric was a fair person and that Cho was pretty. These little moments of name-dropping and trait descriptions proved to be understated foreshadowing for some pretty important characters in later books. And in the case of Susan Bones, after really not hearing about her for several books, we suddenly get her aunt being helpful to Harry at that hearing, we get all kinds of reminders about how her family members were also murdered by Voldemort, we get a description of Susan's appearance (having a "long plait" I think) in a series where appearance descriptions are generally reserved for characters who have more importance than Susan Bones appears to have at present, and finally, we get a brief mention of a "commiseration moment," where Susan relates to Harry that she now knows how he feels when he gets attention for his parents' deaths, after the murders of her relatives become more prominent news again. It's certainly not enough canon evidence to make a definitive prediction about anything, but JKR doesn't usually put in little tidbits for nothing either. But like Kitten said, "I guess you do ship who you Identify with," and I guess I'm not completely sold on any of the 3 major girls, Hermione, Ginny and Luna as being perfectly right for Harry. The best one of the 3, IMO, would be Hermione, but I still see her as being more platonic than anything. And I guess I'm still looking for JKR to continue to "shake things up" in this shipping area, and putting Harry with a ghost character would be a perfect way of doing that. :-) Okay, back to lurkdom as well. :-) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 21:06:40 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:06:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > Amanda wrote: > > I submit that Snape probably cannot perform Expecto Patronus. It's > not that > > I doubt his power or will--but I doubt he has sufficiently happy > memories. > > It is possible that Snape has never been able to master the Patronus > because of difficulty summoning happy memories. > > However, I don't believe that happy memories are integral to the > spell; they are merely an accepted learning method for it. Once > Harry has grasped the spell he does need to call something to mind, > but 'happy memory' is IMO too simplistic a description. > > I believe that the spell is esentially an assertion of *identity* in > the face of a predatory attempt to remove it. For the beginner, > this is most easily done via a happy memory, but this is not > necessarily the only way. > > I think Snape has a sense of his own identity in spades (there is > perhaps a parallel with the way Sirius was able to resist the > Dementors in Azkaban), so in principle a Patronus is perfectly > possible for him. > > David It's also possible that occlumency might protect him. Maybe he's able to block the dementors from entering his mind at all. At any rate, I can't see Snape, who's a very powerful wizard and was clearly obsessed with the results of his DADA OWL exam, not learning to cast a Patronus for his DADA NEWTs. And if a happy memory is needed, maybe he can recall his mother smiling at him some time in his early childhood when his father wasn't around. I can't imagine his *entire life* being unhappy, though much of it clearly was. Carol, who thinks that Snape can cast any spell he sets his mind to, even a cheering charm :-) From meg_twin1 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 10 21:51:33 2004 From: meg_twin1 at hotmail.com (weasley4granger) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:51:33 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a metamorphagus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90720 In the first book J K Rowling tells us that the morning after Petunia cut Harry's hair (badly) he woke up and his hair was back to the same length it had been the night before. We were told in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix that Tonks could change her appearance at will, just by concentrating really hard. Harry would have been concentrating really hard as he was dreading going to school the next day (we all know THAT feeling). But Im not totally convinced as Harry has many times tried to hide his scar with his fringe, if he could (even by accident or without realising it) wouldn't he physically make the scar disappear? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 21:17:10 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:17:10 -0000 Subject: Can Ghost seat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90721 "Fred Waldrop" wrote: > I have just finished re-reading HP SS/PS for the umteenth time, and > once more the same question has came to my mind. > Can Ghost eat? Well, I should say, can Ghost eat for the first > hundred years or so after they have died? > I haven't eaten for nearly four hundred years" said the ghost. > > Then in CoS, chapter 8, (the deathday party), page 133, it goes on > to say: > Sir Nicholas De Mimsy-Porpington > Died 31st October, 1492 > > Which is 500 years since his death. > If the year before he had not eaten for "nearly 400 years", did he > eat during the first 100 years after his death? Carol: I think that 400 years in SS/PS (actually 399--Sir Nick is rounding off to the nearest ten years) is correct and 500 in CoS is a Flint. They can't both be correct and ghosts being able to eat for the first 100 years doesn't really work as an alternative explanation--none of the ghosts in Hogwarts can eat, as evidenced by the horrible deathday feast. Why do I think 400 rather than 500 is correct? First, because it's from the first book and represents her original idea, which I think she simply forgot to doublecheck for CoS, but also because no one wore ruffs in 1492. It's a late sixteenth/early seventeenth-century style. Anyone for having Sir Nick beheaded by Elizabeth I as a supporter of Mary Queen of Scots? Carol From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Wed Feb 11 08:06:15 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:06:15 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90722 This thread has been very interesting to read, so thanks to everyone who wrote on it as well as the person who created it. I have read the theories considering the Chamber, and this possession theory does seem to fit into the theory that a Basilisk is not the only thing under the school. But I would like to share my thought on it. To me these posts are saying that Voldemort is possessed (obviously). But when some one is possessed are they responsible for their actions? Can they make choices of their own free will? No, they cannot. Its like when someone is under the Imperius Curse, they are under someone else's control. If Voldemort is possessed, he is not a bad guy. He is just a tool for the use of another even worse guy. Also I do not think it would be in line with the importance of choices in the books. DD says that it is our choices that make us who we are. If Voldemort was possessed he would not be an interesting bad guy. It is his choices that have turned him into who he is today; he is not a possessed victim but rather an evil mastermind. My favourite character is Harry, so I am not defending Voldemort, only condemning him to his choices. He would only be a worthy nemesis if he has free will, and chooses to be evil, which is the exact opposite of Harry, who has free will and chooses to be good. Also I think it would be an injustice to build up the character of Voldemort and his connection to Harry, only to say he was possessed in the final two books. He is evil, and he has chosen to be evil. If he did choose to be possessed then we should have been told in the preceding books, otherwise it is like a sudden invention of plot to give Harry away to destroy Voldemort without killing him. Also I think that if Tom was possessed in the 5th or 6th year, DD would have noticed some change in him, no matter how small, because he was already watching Tom closely. In closing, I think that if Voldemort is possessed he would lose some accountability for his actions after being possessed, because they were not made out of his free will, but rather Salazars. Please feel free to share your thoughts. John From entropymail at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 21:35:54 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:35:54 -0000 Subject: Controling Peeves In-Reply-To: <003101c3f0db$004dd230$9701a8c0@odyssey.local> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sarah" wrote: > > Entropy: > > Has anyone else noticed that Peeves foreshadows other things > > in earlier books? > > Sarah: > CoS: Peeves calls Myrtle over at the party and introduces her to to the > trio. Oh, and in the same book, Peeves refers to Harry as "*potty* wee Potter" (ch 11, pg 202, US ed). Interesting, as the entrance to the Chamber of Secrets is in a bathroom! :: Entropy :: From charlot7542 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 20:46:23 2004 From: charlot7542 at yahoo.com (charlot7542) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:46:23 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <149.218a262d.2d5aee2a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90724 Neil wrote: > I can't believe I've let myself be drawn into this > discussion, but here goes. Charlotte: I can't believe I've been drawn in either, but here's my take on it... Neil: > My first question is which came first, ships or fanfiction? I > can't believe that anyone upon first reading SS or CoS even > thinks about ships unless they have been brainwashed by fanfiction. > These are 11 and 12 year old kids. They > will be 17 when they > leave Hogwarts. What percentage of people in the world marry > someone from their graduating class? Yet we have determined > that Harry and Ron must pick their future mates from either > their class or the one directly behind them. Charlotte: Actually I read the books in order and by the time I got to the end of CoS I was fairly certain that there was something between Ron and Hermione. At this stage I had never read any fanfiction and I wasn't really looking for anything of the sort because this was a kid's book, but I still sensed something (as did my sister who read the book around the same time as me and came to the same conclusion independently). I realise that at this stage they are 11 and 12 years old, but that's easily old enough for school crushes to start forming. I suppose the reason people try to pair off eventual partners from within the school class is because JKR has set a precedent for this with Harry's own parents. I'm not sure about Molly and Arthur, but I always had the impression that they too met at school. Maybe someone can enlighten me? Neil > Personally I don't think Rowling will link anyone in a till > death do us die relationship in the series. It wouldn't be > good for sales. Perhaps only if there is an epilogue. Charlotte I agree with you here. I think any romantic activity is going to be very much on the sidelines as it's not the most important aspect of the story. Even now its used more by JKR for lighter comic relief. Neil > I think a Harry/Hermione relationship could make it... Charlotte: I'm still not convinced about the whole Harry/Hermione thing. Yes, on the whole they get on well in OotP and seem to spend a lot of time together. There appears to have arisen a genuine understanding between them, which wasn't there even in GoF. But this can be seen as an indication that Harry is becomming more mature and thus learning to appreciate more than chocolate frogs and Quidditch. The reason he doesn't appreciate the time spent alone with Hermione in GoF is because he was still really an immature boy. Nevertheless for me the H/Hr relationship is still very platonic; there is absolutely no jealousy on either side, a sure indication of romantic feeling. Can you imagine Hermione helping Ron with his feelings for another girl in the same way that she does for Harry? I don't think so. All the things that people have cited as indications of a possible relationship (complimenting each other in terms of talent and intellect, respect etc.) are things that can contribute towards a lasting friendship (which in itself is a very special relationship), but if there is no chemistry or attraction there, its never going to work. My problem, is that it is all too reasonable. Neil > A marriage between Ron and Hermione in the real world would > never make it. Some say their fighting is funny in the story and > it is, but would it be funny in real life. Charlotte: Yes, but this isn't real life. There are so many examples of fighting couples in literature that eventually end up together from JKR's favourite Jane Austen style Darcy and Elizabeth to Beatrice and Benedick in Much Ado About Nothing right down to Anne of Green Gables and Gilbert Blythe. Who knows if these relationships would work in real life, but they are very entiertaining as part of a narrative. Niel > Hermione wants to free elves, Ron looks down on them and would > dread their being free. Who would do his laundry? Hermione > is a super achiever and Ron is happy to get by. > > In a relationship between Ron and Hermione, they could never be > equal partners. She excels him in every way. Could Ron accept that. > Forget the hints and look at the personalities of the characters. > Ron and Hermione wouldn't even be friends if Harry wasn't there as > a buffer zone. Charlotte: I'll come back to your original point here. You're right, they are still very young. One would hope that as they get older both Ron and Hermione will develop and become more tolerant in general. Harry's not the only one who needs to mature. As they do, the dynamics of their relationship is sure to change. Already in OotP with Hermione's less emotional attitude there are less arguments between them. Actually the Anne and Gilbert relationship is a good one to look at in this context. They meet at around the same age as Ron and Hermione (although Gilbert is a bit older) and start out fighting all the time. But as they grow older, they eventually become friends and fall in love. It's all about growing up and maturing. I agree that without Harry to diffuse the tensions between R/H that they might not be friends. They'd probably be like Anne and Gilbert, but that doesn't mean that the attraction isn't there and that eventually they'll see eye to eye. As for the difference in talent, I can see how this might be a problem. However, if you look at Ron, despite his seemingly indifferent attitude to school work and achievement in general, he seems to gravitate towards high achievers. If you use the equal partner criteria he shouldn't even be friends with Harry. I'll admit that he does have a number of hang ups as a result of his successful older brothers, and actually for this reason I think he down plays his desire to perform well. Way back in PS when he looked into the mirror of Erised, what did he see? Certainly not a nice easy existence with a wife to cook and look after him. No, he saw himself as really successful. Already in OotP we see him start down this road. With the final Quidditch victory and the departure of Fred and George I think we'll see a more confident Ron, more able to challenge Hermione on her own terms. I think Hermione understands Ron's underlying desire to be successful and as such is the person to push him in the right direction. Just a thought. Charlotte, who can't believe she wrote so much on this topic and appologises for bringing in sentimental teen-romance literature to support her argument. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 21:42:26 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:42:26 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: <1076494883.402a02239a1e0@horde.scannet.dk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, mainecoon at w... wrote: > Kneasy: > > I bet he's got at least one. > > > > He'll have danced a little jig the day James died, don't you think? > > I absolutly don't agree with you here. Maybe he could have danced and been very > happy when James died, but we have to remeber that James once saved Snape from > Lupin as a werewolf. > > Would anyone feel happy when a person who saved you from the death die? I don't > think so - even not if you hate the person that much! and I dare say that Snape > and Potter hated each other :-) > > I actually think Snape feels very bad because he wasn't able to save Potter too. Carol: I think (hope) that Kneasy was half-joking in his response. In any case, I think James's death would have made Snape very *un*happy--not because he liked James (he hated him) but because he owed James a life debt that he had tried to fulfill (IMO) by informing Dumbledore of LV's plans to kill the Potters. So he not only failed to save them after risking his life by betraying Voldemort, he was stuck with an unfulfilled life debt (which I think he's now trying to fulfill by transferring the debt to Harry). OTOH, the apparent fall of Voldemort would, indeed, have been cause for celebration. But Snape, young as he was then, would have been wise enough not to celebrate it publicly with DEs still roaming the WW. Carol, who wants to know what the consequences of an unfulfilled life debt might be From elihufalk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 15:26:57 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (elihufalk) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:26:57 -0000 Subject: Could Lily have trained to be an Auror while Pregnant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90726 Mandy: > I have these dates: > Lily left school in 1978 (from Lexicon) > Auror training: 1978-1980 (my speculation) > Got pregnant Sept/Oct 1979 (logical deduction from date of birth) > Gave birth July 1980 (from Lexicon) > > So this only give her just over 1 year of physical freedom > to train. Summer 1978 ? autumn 1979. Also bear in mine she > was a member of the Order during this time and actively fighting LV. > > I do see Lily as a superwoman, and I want to believe it is possible > as I'm a young woman and want to be able to do it all, but I just > don't see how she could have done it. There is, in my opinion, a mistake in the Lexicon's claim that Remus Lupin Went to Hogwarts in the 70's. Prof. McGonagall became a teacher 39 years before OP; She teaches transfigurations, the same subject that Dumbledore taught (CS); so Dumbledore must have stopped teaching that by 1956 (assuming Harry was born in 1981). Remus Lupin stated that Dumbledore "became" headmaster shortly before he went to Hogwarts. That would put the year he began at 1960 at the latest! Now, James and Lily were of the same year as Lupin, therefore the years when Lily could have finished school were before 1970. Elihu From rredordead at aol.com Wed Feb 11 21:45:34 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:45:34 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <149.218a262d.2d5aee2a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90727 > Neil wrote: > My first question is which came first, ships or fanfiction? I can't believe that anyone upon first reading SS or CoS even thinks about ships unless they have been brainwashed by fanfiction. These are 11 and 12 year old kids. They will be 17 when they leave Hogwarts. What percentage of people in the world marry someone from their graduating class? Yet we have determined that Harry > and Ron must pick their future mates from either their class or the one directly behind them. Mandy here: I don't see any of them getting together by the end of the books either. They're far too young and as you said very few people actually marry their Secondary/High school sweetheart. College perhaps, but I personally would steer an 18 year old away from marriage. I think some readers fall so completely in love with their favorite characters, that they can not see passed the walls of the world as JKR has painted. It is comfortable for them to remain inside the bounderies of the story. All the choices are available for them to pick from and the risk of curve ball from left field is reduced if not eliminated. I think it's very narrow minded. It is too easy to marry them all together. The only relevance of shipping in my mind is in the potential trouble it can cause between the teens while they're still at Hogwarts. What happens after is of interest to me, but not as much as what can happen in the next two books. I don't really care if RHR get married, but I do care if their threesome sets up a love triangle. And a love triangle between 17/18 year olds is destined for disaster. The way I see it Ron is the loose canon in the equation. He is crushing on Hermione and she doesn't feel the same way. If she is crushing on anyone, its Viktor. However Hermione is very close to Harry, very close and even if you believe there is nothing between them, (although I do believe they are completely in love but don't know it and will probably not realize it until their both in their 30's and married to other people, or one of them is dead.) even if you think there is nothing between them, Ron might suspect there is and if that happens, tragic consequences will result. As I said before it's what happenes at Hogwarts that interest me. Cheers Mandy From chris_tennies2003 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 16:15:29 2004 From: chris_tennies2003 at yahoo.com (chris) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:15:29 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) AND newbie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90728 Hey guys! My name is Chris and I'm a newbie to this board. I'm 20, (21 in March) and I love the Harry Potter novels. One thing I think is great is that JK Rowling is making all this money off merchandise and doesn't let it get to her head. She still is able to write a fantastic story. As far as shipping goes, I'm kinda leaning towards Harry/Cho, but I'd be happy with him and Hermione or Ginny. I like Ron/Hermione too. Do you think we'll hear stuff about book six around the time that the movie comes out? Oh and do you think the "boy/girl stuff" as JK put it will play a part in the next two books as well? Well, anyway, just wanted to introduce myself. I think I'm gonna enjoy being in this group! Chris From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 21:51:38 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:51:38 -0000 Subject: Pigs in wigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90729 Sen wrote: Don't rely on the movies for your info alone. > Granted, they did a good job, there's just so much they CANT get into > that's really important. Plus there's a few really good laughs in > them. > > Sen > Who about died laughing when thinking of pigs in wigs. This is probably completely and utterly off the mark, but is anyone besides me old enough to remember the old black-and-white "Bugs Bunny" newspaper comics in which Porky Pig's girlfriend was a pig with black hair worn in braids ("pig tails"?). She looked exactly like a pig in a wig--and her name was Petunia! Carol, who also appreciates JKR's humor and thinks you can't fully appreciate it from the films alone From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Wed Feb 11 22:07:33 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:07:33 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Harry a metamorphagus? References: Message-ID: <001001c3f0eb$75521400$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90730 {Weasley4Granger} But I'm not totally convinced as Harry has many times tried to hide his scar with his fringe, if he could (even by accident or without realising it) wouldn't he physically make the scar disappear {Anne} Interesting question, but I THINK it's already been answered by Rowling herself in one interview or another. Don't quote me on this--I could very well be mis-remembering, but...I seem to recall this subject being discussed when I first joined a few months ago, and someone had said that Rowling stated in an interview that although there WAS another Metamorphomagus character besides Tonks, it would not be Harry... Anyone else remember this discussion, or know about the interview where this might have been stated, and where senile folks like myself can find it? ^^; As for the re-growing hair...I think that maybe a lot of the 'magic' Harry pulls off at the Dursleys over the year is more of a 'bleed-off' result when he's highly stressed or completely pissed at his caretakers--in other words, magical energy sort of flies in certain higly emotional situations, but other then taking a 'rough shape' in regards to what it does (Blowing up Aunt Marge because his temper is about to 'blow up' for example), it's not really something Harry can control...and it's not part of a specific talent (Unless wandless magic is a specific talent/skill/ability)...if that makes any sense...? The scar, of course, being a result somehow of Harry's altercation with old Moldy Voldy when he was an infant, might be resistant to any magic that tried to remove it, even metamorphing, simply because it itself has certain magical properties that cannot be over-ridden (this is just an opinion of mine...and I could be way off base...). **Anne--wishing she kept track of Rowling's interviews so it was easier to answer these kinds of questions and actaully have accurate information...:P** From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 11 22:19:17 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:19:17 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "charlot7542" wrote: > Charlotte: > Yes, but this isn't real life. There are so many examples of > fighting couples in literature that eventually end up together from > JKR's favourite Jane Austen style Darcy and Elizabeth to Beatrice > and Benedick in Much Ado About Nothing right down to Anne of Green > Gables and Gilbert Blythe. Who knows if these relationships would > work in real life, but they are very entiertaining as part of a > narrative. S S Susan now: Not to mention Maria & Robin in The Little White Horse [one of JKR's all-time favorite books], who pair up at age 14 or so & get married around 16! Siriusly Snapey Susan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 22:39:42 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:39:42 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90732 "johnbowman19" wrote: But when some one is possessed are they responsible for their actions? Can they make choices of their own free will? No, they cannot. It's like when someone is under the Imperius Curse, they are under someone else's control. If Voldemort is possessed, he is not a bad guy. He is just a tool for the use of another even worse guy. Also I do not think it would be in line with the importance of choices in the books. DD says that it is our choices that make us who we are. If Voldemort was possessed he would not be an interesting bad guy. It is his choices that have turned him into who he is today; he is not a possessed victim but rather an evil mastermind. Carol: I dislike the "Voldemort is possessed" theory for much the same reason you do: I think young Tom chose evil at an early age (releasing the basilisk against the Muggle-borns) and was was permanently confirmed in his choice when he murdered his father and grandparents. I don't think he was possessed by the spirit of Salazar Slytherin: I think he chose revenge and cold-blooded murder, as well as the pursuit of "greatness" and immortality through any means that would achieve his ends, to paraphrase the Sorting Hat's song in SS/PS (IIRC). Being possessed would to some degree lessen his responsibility for those wrong choices and, as you say, weaken the theme of choice. It would also diminish young Tom's function as a foil to Harry, a boy in similar circumstances who made very different choices, with disastrous results. But I also think we've seen two distinctly different forms of possession. Ginny was indeed the innocent victim of Diary!Tom, who tried to free herself by throwing away the diary but failed. She couldn't save herself; she had to be rescued by Harry (and Fawkes). The experience did not make her evil, though it certainly robbed her of her innocence--and, IMO, of her vulnerability. The other victim, Quirrell, also started out naive but was sufficiently weak-willed *before* he was possessed to be persuaded by Voldemort that good and evil were delusions. He was already LV's servant or tool, carrying LV to Britain from Albania and trying to steal the sorceror's/ philosopher's stone, *before* LV entered his head "to keep a closer watch on him," and he was aware of his own actions even while he was possessed (no Ginny-like gaps in his memory and he fetched that troll as a diversion of his own accord). He *chose* to do Voldemort's will and only regretted that he was sometimes too weak to fulfill it. Possessed though he was, I don't think that the Quirrell who attacks Harry at the end of Book One is in any sense an innocent victim whose actions can be excused because he was being controlled by an evil being. He *wanted* to give Voldemort the stone. Voldemort was his "master," but he was a willing servant, not a slave. In some sense, IMO, he even chose to be possessed--that is, he allowed it to happen. He allowed himself to fall that deeply into Voldemort's power. I think this point is best supported by JKR's response when she was asked why she made Quirrell, not Snape, the villain of Book One (this was long before anyone besides JKR knew the complexity of Snape's character or how thoroughly his loyalties lay with Dumbledore). JKR replied that she knew all about Severus Snape and he wasn't about to wear a turban. I doubt very much that the remark referred to Snape's fashion sense. I think it meant that he would never have allowed Voldemort to enter the back of his head or to possess him in any way. Quirrell also had that choice, but he was weak enough and corrupted enough at that point to submit to Voldemort's will. In doing so, and particularly in drinking the unicorn's blood at LV's command, he, too, became irredemably evil, but the fault is mostly if not entirely his own. Whether through fear or for whatever other reason, he chose the path of evil, and possession does not change that decision or release him from responsibility for his evil actions. Carol, who understands that these are her opinions, not facts, and hopes that she has not argued them too forcibly From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 22:39:08 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:39:08 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90733 Hey guys. I've been reading over this thread, not so much out of interest for the actual shipping, but because I find it interesting to read over other views and opinions of characters and their personalities/relationships. In response to Neil and Charlotte's discussion, about how Harry is still immature, needs to grow up, how Hermione and Harry might or might not work, etc., I looked for this interview from Time magazine with JKR that I found highly interesting. The excerpts I'm giving give insight into quite a few threads of late, and I hope others find it useful as well, especially considering the proof we've been given of JKR heading more R/H in her interviews. JKR: "The bonding that takes place among Harry, Ron and Hermione is because each of them is disadvantaged in some way. Hermione is deeply insecure under her know-it-all manner, and the way to underline that aspect of her is to make her come, like Harry, from a different world [her parents are both Muggles, i.e., nonwizards], so that this is scary to her, and she copes with it the only way she knows how to cope, which is to overachieve." "Harry has been catapulted into this [the Hogwarts experience], and he operates on a need-to-know basis only. He doesn't really want to go looking things up. The whole thing is very surreal to Harry. He copes in a very different way from Hermione--he's sort of sink-or- swim, I'll just deal with it minute to minute, which is possibly a more boyish way of coping, rather than go over and over all the angles, as I think a lot of young girls do. "As much as Ron loves his father [a wizard who is unusually curious about the nonmagic world], that can also be an awkward thing for a child, to have a particularly unconventional parent. It's plausible that these three kids would get on so well together because they are all to some extent oddities in the world." "Harry's more likely than Hermione and Ron to be depressed. He's got to fight harder against that because he went through 10 years of neglect [from his cruel relatives], and that leaves you with an enormous emptiness inside you. He really is a damaged person. So yes, he's more vulnerable. He's also a very brave person, who's going to keep fighting against depression. "I admire bravery above almost every other characteristic. Bravery is a very glamorous virtue, but I'm talking bravery in all sorts of places. It was brave of Harry to answer back to the Dursleys [his aunt and uncle]; they had all the cards, and he was standing up for himself even then. That's why I love him so much. He's a fighter." "No one's wholly good. I would say Harry has flaws and failings. He was too proud [in the fourth book] to talk to Ron about what was bothering them both. Harry was walking around thinking, 'I'm the one with all the problems,' and he did have a lot of problems, but Ron had been a faithful friend for three years, and I would have cut Ron a little more slack. And what about Ginny [Ron's younger sister]? Poor Ginny, languishing in love for Harry, and he's merrily asking out other girls right under her nose! But that's just a boy thing." "If we're going to talk about flawless little gentlemen, I don't think Harry is one. But he's an old soul compared to Ron, who's just your classic 14-year-old. I see Harry as an old soul. And you meet kids like that; I've taught kids like that. They are my people. I like those kids." I liked it, anyway. And I'm not sure who brought it up, but I agree with the Fitzwilliam Darcy/Elizabeth Bennett allusion. Ron and Hermione have always reminded me slightly of Austen-esque relationships, and are, at the very least, great comic relief. ~ Hitomi, who doesn't think people should apologize for discussing ships, when everyone is at least a little curious to see who ends up with who - it is a natural human inclination, after all From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 22:58:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:58:34 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a metamorphagus? In-Reply-To: <001001c3f0eb$75521400$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90734 Weasley4Granger: But I'm not totally convinced as Harry has many times tried to hide his scar with his fringe, if he could (even by accident or without realising it) wouldn't he physically make the scar disappear Anne: The scar, of course, being a result somehow of Harry's altercation with old Moldy Voldy when he was an infant, might be resistant to any magic that tried to remove it, even metamorphing, simply because it itself has certain magical properties that cannot be over-ridden (this is just an opinion of mine...and I could be way off base...). Carol: IIRC, he likes his scar--it's the one thing that distinguishes him from everyone else (remember him looking at it in the mirror in SS/PS before he knows he's a wizard?--he just doesn't like people staring at it. Dumbledore says something early on about curse scars being useful, and I think Harry understands that by now. He knows that when the scar hurts, he's sensing Voldemort's emotions, and he probably understands that it was the channel through which the dreams came to him as well. So even if he could, I don't think he'd try to get rid of it. Also, even though Madam Pomfrey can mend broken noses and shrink overly long teeth, i don't think it's all that easy (if you're not a metamorphagus and I don't think Harry is) for a witch or wizard to change his or her appearance. Remember Eloise Midgen, who blasted her nose off trying to clear up her acne? Also, if Harry's scar is not only the "mark" Voldemort gave him but (as I suspect) a protective rune resulting from a defensive charm his mother placed on him before her death, no magic of any kind could remove it. Even if he were a metamorphagus, it would probably show up, just as McGonagall's glasses show up as markings on her face when she's a cat. If glasses are an essential part of McG's identity, the scar is even more integral to Harry's. Carol From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 11 23:16:06 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:16:06 -0000 Subject: Molly's role (was Ship predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90735 snip > I mean no disrespect to anyone who cleans for a living or a hobby, > but I thought Molly's role as cleaner wasn't important at all. She > seemed to need a lot of help and fail at certain parts of this job. > There seemed to be little risk involved, especially compared to the > risk other members of the Order faced. > > I also wasn't impressed that she was saddled with the cooking chores. > > Paula I do not want to start the whole Molly Weasley thread again, it was beaten to death a few months ago. I just have to chime in again here. First of all, I don't think "saddled" is the appropriate term here. She has accepted the job, at least while her children are in the house, we do not know who is cooking now that the children have all gone back to school. Whether you cook and clean for a living is really irrelevant here. Anyone who has done these jobs for their family for any length of time will tell you that it is a thankless, difficult job and done, not (for most anyway) out of a love for it, but because it has to be done. For many people, preparing food for those they care about is a great and honorable thing. We have no idea from canon what Molly does when there are no children to be cared for. We do know that she has been on "duty". I would assume within the context of OotP she was in the very same hallway where her husband was almost killed. Basically, we have very little information about what any of the order are doing and to assume that Molly is somehow a lesser member because she has taken responsibility to care for the others is not only not fair to her, but to anyone who does the "dirty" work that keeps the rest going! Sue, who will settle down now and think about the laundry that has to be done so her children have underwear and what to make for dinner ;). From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 23:24:05 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:24:05 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90736 Charlotte: I suppose the reason people try to pair off eventual partners from within the school class is because JKR has set a precedent for this with Harry's own parents. I'm not sure about Molly and Arthur, but I always had the impression that they too met at school. Maybe someone can enlighten me? Neri now: I'd be delighted to. GoF, Ch. 31 "The third task": "And the Fat Lady?" said Bill. "She was here in my time," said Mrs. Weasley. "She gave me such a telling off one night when I got back to the dormitory at four in the morning -" "What were you doing out of your dormitory at four in the morning?" said Bill, surveying his mother with amazement. Mrs. Weasley grinned, her eyes twinkling. "Your father and I had been for a nighttime stroll," she said. "He got caught by Apollyon Pringle - he was the caretaker in those days - your father's still got the marks." Regarding marrying school buddies, I must add that for wizards it is probably much more common than for muggles. Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in Britain, isn't it? For the student this means that if you didn't find love among the students of your year or adjacent years, you will probably have to marry a muggle. Not that I have any prejudices against muggles (some of my best friends are muggles!) but mixed marriage does have more potential for problems. Neri (who wonder what would the Room of Requirement look like had Molly and Arthur managed to find it at 4 AM) From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 11 23:29:44 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:29:44 -0000 Subject: Controling Peeves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sarah" wrote: > > > Entropy: > > > Has anyone else noticed that Peeves foreshadows other things > > > in earlier books? > > > > Sarah: > > CoS: Peeves calls Myrtle over at the party and introduces her to to the > > trio. > > > Oh, and in the same book, Peeves refers to Harry as "*potty* wee > Potter" (ch 11, pg 202, US ed). Interesting, as the entrance to the > Chamber of Secrets is in a bathroom! > > :: Entropy :: He also refers to Harry as Potty in OotP. "Oh, most think he's barking, the Potty wee lad, But some are more kindly and think he's just sad, But Peevsey knows better and says that he's mad-" Our charming Peeves, OotP US ed. pg. 247. This is one of the references used by the Mysteries of Harry Potter authors to justify their position that there is another Basilisk in the Camber of secrets. I like to think of Peeves as the ultimate truth teller. He really does seem to know everything, there is certainly no question that Harry spent his 5th year angry! Sue, Who is horribly sad to see Fred and George leave Hogwarts, it will not be the same and hopes that Peeves hangs out through it all. We all need a few laughs as we bite our fingernails about Harry's next torment. From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 23:41:55 2004 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:41:55 -0000 Subject: Peeves through the veil? Was: Controling Peeves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90738 > Carolyn: > > If you search back in the archives there are some really interesting > posts as to what Peeves really is - basically, that he is an > emanation of the mischevious trouble-making spirits all around him > (ie the kids, mainly). > I was wondering - since Peeves seems to be the only being in the Potterverse who was apparently never alive, could he be the one who could safely go through the veil and come back out? Could this be a way that Harry could safely communicate with those on the other side? Constance Vigilance From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Feb 11 23:46:04 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:46:04 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: <189.24a03703.2d5c18bc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90739 In a message dated 02/11/2004 3:01:04 PM Central Standard Time, Justine74 at aol.com writes: > And keeping all this "bringing in new people into Harry's life" and > "shaking > things up" thoughts in mind, I just can't shake this "Harry falls for Susan > Bones in Book 6 or 7" feeling that I got after reading OOTP. Everytime I > mention it to someone I know who reads the books they always have a good > laugh, and so do I, because I know the theory is definitely out of the > mainstream to say the least . Would that by any chance be me, my dear . I think there is a chance that Harry could hook up with anyone from Hermione on down to Eloise. Presuming they all survive .. and that's not at all a certainty. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Feb 12 00:27:40 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:27:40 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <149.218a262d.2d5aee2a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90740 Neil wrote: > I can't believe I've let myself be drawn into this discussion, but here goes. > > My first question is which came first, ships or fanfiction? I can't believe that anyone upon first reading SS or CoS even thinks about ships unless they have been brainwashed by fanfiction. < Actually, knowing I was reading a seven part series (the shiny big Year One on the cover was a clue) as soon as I read the "cute meets" on the Hogwarts Express I expected I'd see Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny eventually. That's classic romantic comedy stuff. And I'd never even heard of fan fiction at the time, though I had studied a bit about how romantic comedies are constructed. Neil: >>These are 11 and 12 year old kids. They will be 17 when they leave Hogwarts. What percentage of people in the world marry someone from their graduating class? << Well, if they're going to marry another witch or wizard anywhere near their own age, it's pretty much a given that it will be someone who attended Hogwarts with them, unless they travel abroad. It's the only wizarding school in the country. Neil: >> A marriage between Ron and Hermione in the real world would never make it. Some say their fighting is funny in the story and it is, but would it be funny in real life. Hermione wants to free elves, Ron looks down on them and would dread their being free. Who would do his laundry? Hermione is a super achiever and Ron is happy to get by. << *Harry* looks down on Elves too--he thinks they're weird. Meanwhile, at least Ron cares enough about the issue to argue with her about it. As Dumbledore says, opposition is far more easy to overcome than indifference. Ron just knows that they're happy as they are, a fact Hermione refuses to acknowledge. She'll never free the Elves until she faces that issue and deals with it. Meanwhile Molly does Ron's laundry at home--and Harry's too, when he's staying at The Burrow. I don't think Ron and Hermione's arguing is going to be fatal to the relationship. They're still learning to relate to one another and sometimes their sparring gets out of hand--they just have to learn to blunt their claws, is all. Neil: > >In a relationship between Ron and Hermione, they could never be equal partners. She excels him in every way. Could Ron accept that.<< Ron may not apply himself to his classwork, (though I'd be surprised if he doesn't get as many OWLs as Harry) but he's better than Hermione at Quidditch, chess, and even a classroom subject--Divination! He's proven he can set a goal and go after it --that sounds like an achievement oriented person to me. And I've never really understood why if the female partner is smarter, it's guaranteed to torpedo the relationship. There are some rare gems out there who think smart is sexy and Ron, IMO, is one of them. Pippin From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 22:24:39 2004 From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (Sarah) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:24:39 -0800 Subject: Is Harry a metamorphagus? References: <001001c3f0eb$75521400$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <008f01c3f0ed$d75df400$9701a8c0@odyssey.local> No: HPFGUIDX 90741 Anne: > The scar, of course, being a result somehow of > Harry's altercation with old Moldy Voldy when > he was an infant, might be resistant to any magic > that tried to remove it, even metamorphing, simply > because it itself has certain magical properties > that cannot be over-ridden Sarah: I was thinking this also, especially since McGonagall asks Dumbledore if he can do something about it as they're leaving Harry on the doorstep, and Dumbledore says that even if could, he wouldn't. If Dumbledore can't remove it, it must be different than other features. Then I remembered the polyjuice potion. I guess one could argue that the magical principles are not the same, since the polyjuice is making Harry into Goyle, a totally different person, not just changing his features around. Sarah From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 12 01:12:46 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:12:46 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a metamorphagus? In-Reply-To: <001001c3f0eb$75521400$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: > {Anne} > > Interesting question, but I THINK it's already been answered by >Rowling herself in one interview or another. Don't quote me on this-- >I could very well be mis-remembering, but...I seem to recall this >subject being discussed when I first joined a few months ago, and >someone had said that Rowling stated in an interview that although >there WAS another Metamorphomagus character besides Tonks, it would >not be Harry... "K" I don't recall such an interview. However, there is this: Press Club/20 October 1999 J.K. Rowling Interview Transcript SB: We're going to take a few more questions, and um, the next one is will Harry ever turn into a shape-changer like his father? JKR: Animagus. No, Harry's not in training to be an animagus, and if you've read book three, you won't know ? um, that's a wizard that's very, very difficult to do. They learn to turn themselves into animals. No, Harry is not, Harry is going to be concentrated elsewhere, he's not going to have time to do that. He's got quite a full agenda coming up, poor boy.~~ Just think what Harry might learn if he could transform into... Snape. ;-) "K" From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Thu Feb 12 01:36:29 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:36:29 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Harry a metamorphagus? References: Message-ID: <000901c3f108$a33815a0$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90743 "K" I don't recall such an interview. However, there is this: Press Club/20 October 1999 J.K. Rowling Interview Transcript SB: We're going to take a few more questions, and um, the next one is will Harry ever turn into a shape-changer like his father? JKR: Animagus. No, Harry's not in training to be an animagus, and if you've read book three, you won't know - um, that's a wizard that's very, very difficult to do. They learn to turn themselves into animals. No, Harry is not, Harry is going to be concentrated elsewhere, he's not going to have time to do that. He's got quite a full agenda coming up, poor boy.~~ {Anne} Thanks, K...I suspect this might be the interview I was thinking of, in which case, I misremebered the magus typr...told you I was senile...lol {K} Just think what Harry might learn if he could transform into... Snape. ;-) {Anne} *eg* Oh, don't tempt me...I could see chaos reigning in many different ways--from Harry totally ruining Sev's not-so-great-to-begin-with reputation, to having a first hand experience of what it's like to have to live Sev's life.... Hmmmm...hey maybe that's wht they both need.....a switch over for a week or so in the style of freaky Friday or other films like it....It would certainly give them both a whole new perspective....*WEG* **goes back to being quiet before she wanders too far from practical discussion....** From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Thu Feb 12 01:38:33 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:38:33 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Harry a metamorphagus? References: <001001c3f0eb$75521400$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> <008f01c3f0ed$d75df400$9701a8c0@odyssey.local> Message-ID: <000b01c3f108$ed77f540$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90744 {Sarah} Then I remembered the polyjuice potion. I guess one could argue that the magical principles are not the same, since the polyjuice is making Harry into Goyle, a totally different person, not just changing his features around {Anne} Yeah, that IS a major flaw in the theory...unless somehow the properties of the polyjuice protion masks when it can't alter....? Okay, that might be stretching it a bit far, even for fantasy magical stuff.... From nellyist at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 04:29:34 2004 From: nellyist at yahoo.com (Nelly Dacic) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:29:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Controling Peeves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040211042934.87203.qmail@web61009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90745 Yea, I think they keep him there for comic relief and he does play a semi-important role in the fifth book when he joins the campaign to sack Umbridge. Plus, without Peeves, what would become of Filch? -Nelly --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From topfor at aol.com Thu Feb 12 01:09:05 2004 From: topfor at aol.com (smtopliff) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:09:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doliesl" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" > Acrum wrote: > > > Given that many qualified wizards have trouble with it, and it > > projects "hope, happiness, & the desire to survive" - 3 things I > > don't see Snape as being good at, I doubt he could cast a Patronus. > > I also doubt someone heavily into the dark arts would be able to > > cast it, but don't really have canon for that... > > Well I could see Snape's *hope* of a better future for himself of > becoming a great wizard (a dark one maybe :p), his striving to > achieve academically in his school days did show he wanted to be > recognized and achieve some kind of success. That is some kind > of "hope for the better". > And I'm sure it is his *happiness* to see Potter expelled or getting > out of his life in general. > And he definitely has been a "survivor" all his life: so far he has > surivived his seemingly abusive childhood and humiliating school > days, and most of all he survived his death eater past. Does sounds > like he has strong *desire to survive* to keep him alive all along. > Contrary to those who wished Snape *dead*, I have the feeling he will > continue to survive till the end of the series. He's a bit too > hardass to die. > > Well I see no reason why Snape couldn't perform a Patronus.;) OR, perhaps the lesson Snape needs to learn is that Hope and happiness are possible, and then he will be able to produce the elusive Patronus that he has been trying to produce all of his life (oh, the drama!). The glimpses we have seen of Snape as a youth are of a person who had little love in his life, and few friends. As a result, (bordering on fanfic I fear) he cannot produce a Patronus. So, maybe he can't produce a Patronus...YET...but he learns and produces at the most opportune moment. just expanding on the thought why he can't and what it might mean to the plot. /s/ From BrwNeil at aol.com Thu Feb 12 01:30:50 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:30:50 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: <124.2ac8d477.2d5c314a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90747 In a message dated 2/11/2004 7:35:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: Ron may not apply himself to his classwork, (though I'd be surprised if he doesn't get as many OWLs as Harry) but he's better than Hermione at Quidditch, chess, and even a classroom subject--Divination! :-) I'm smiling, but that is a low blow. I'll give you that Ron is better at chess and Quidditch than Hermione, but to say he is better at Divination is stretching things a bit. Harry and Ron both try to lie and fake their way thru the class and nether will get an owl. Hermione at least had the courage of her convictions and said it was bunk. She is taking a class in which she will receive an owl. As for how many owls people will get, we all know Hermione will receive the most. I'm interested to see how many owls are given. I think the surprise will be that Harry does well in Potions. After all he needs to continue the study to be an Auror and the story wouldn't be the same if Harry didn't have classes with Snape. He's proven he can set a goal and go after it --that sounds like an achievement oriented person to me. And I've never really understood why if the female partner is smarter, it's guaranteed to torpedo the relationship. There are some rare gems out there who think smart is sexy and Ron, IMO, is one of them. I'm going to stand back and wait for the bricks to be thrown, but Hermione is my favorite character in canon. If she were my daughter; I would be extremely proud. I'd also want the best for her. In my opinion she can do much better than Ron. And I don't just mean Harry. I'm not really a H/Hr shipper as much as I'm an anti R/Hr shipper. Neil Read and discuss Hogwarts Exposed and its sequel at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HogwartsExposed/ Stories also available at http://portkey.org/ author Neil, http://www.sc hnoogle.com/ author Neil, http://www.fanfiction.net/~neil1 author Neil1 and http://www.adultfanfiction.net/ author Neil. Chapter fifteen of Hogwarts Too Exposed - A Slytherin Among Us has been posted. Look for chapter sixteen February 23, 2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sydorov47 at yahoo.com.au Thu Feb 12 02:14:53 2004 From: sydorov47 at yahoo.com.au (sydorov47) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 02:14:53 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <149.218a262d.2d5aee2a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, BrwNeil at a... wrote: > These are 11 and 12 year old kids. They > will be 17 when they leave Hogwarts. What percentage of people in the world > marry someone from their graduating class? Just my 2c: This is not our usual world (and I don't mean the fact that this is wisard world). WW is at war. Relationships are developed fast and early in war, when life can be lost every day. > Personally I don't think Rowling will link anyone in a till death do us die > relationship in the series. It wouldn't be good for sales. Her interviews show quite sizable ignorance of sales. I do believe that she writes - first of all - for herself. > A marriage between Ron and Hermione in the real world would never make it. > Hermione is a super achiever and Ron is happy to get by. Is he? He spent all nights just training to achive that position in the team. He happen to be , at least, as good as other two boys - Seamus Finnigan, Dean Thomas - to be chosen as Prefect. > In a relationship between Ron and Hermione, they could never be equal > partners. She excels him in every way. She does not - check Divination - as subject and as experience - Ron can handle it, while she could not. She is more mature - yes, just as the most girls at that age are more mature than boys. But he will catch up. Sydorov. From charlot7542 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 22:27:55 2004 From: charlot7542 at yahoo.com (charlot7542) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:27:55 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90749 I just had another thought regarding the H/H vs R/H debate. A fair indication of the way things are going to develop can be seen in the adult relationships in JKR's world. First, look at James and Lilly in the penseive. Clearly when they were younger they fought all the time, but obviously got past this, married and had baby Harry. Then look at Arthur and Molly, certainly a couple in love, but not above arguments and disagreements. I'd say JKR favours this type of chemistry rather than a more docile and compliant relationship. To my mind this is a fairly important piece of evidence in favour of Ron and Hermione. Charlotte. From BrwNeil at aol.com Wed Feb 11 21:55:17 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:55:17 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90750 In a message dated 2/11/2004 4:20:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, imontero at iname.com writes: I agree 100% with Kitten. If JKR did want us to find it out all by ourselves in her texts, why on earth is she always hinting at R/H ship and dismising H/H as "only platonic" relationship. I don't think this is weak, as I said before: She is the writer, she is the God of HP World... If this is weak evidence, I don't know what can be considered as "strong evidence"... Probably for the same reason that she led us in her interviews to believe that Hagrid would be the one to die in book 5. Yes, she is the author and she wants everyone to be surprised, so she tries to mislead us. Personally I agree with the writer who suggested that something is currently going on between Ron and Hermione behind Harry's back. If this is true the question is which ship does it help. Would a hidden R/H relationship now grow through the course of books 6 and 7 or would it only serve to convince them that it wouldn't work and open the door for other options? It would at least expalin why Hermione spent the summer with Ron. Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From imontero at iname.com Wed Feb 11 18:21:21 2004 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:21:21 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90751 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > Irene wrote: > > I am more for H/G, it's a gut feeling Although there is no clear > indication, there are hints, like the twins talking to Harry about > how powerful she is, and the way she is not intimidated by Harry's > worst tantrums. If they don't end up together, they are going to > share a very strong friendship and Harry is going to admire her for > her courage and power > So, what does JKR say about H/G? : > > Will Harry ever notice the long-suffering Ginny Weasley? > JKR : You'll see... poor Ginny, eh? > > Berit replies: > > I agree with you. There are canon hints at a future romantic > relationship between Harry and Ginny in OoP. For the first time, > Harry learns to know Ginny more than just being Ron's little sister. > They interact much more; in the train compartment, in the DA group, > in the MoM... But the little detail I love the most, is how Rowling > describes the way Harry and Ginny's eyes meet over a good joke... > That's telling! (Sorry, don't have the page reference) That's right. It reminds me a little bit of my own experience. I am the "little syster" in my family, kind of the same as Ginny, I can identify with her 100%. I remember having a crush on one of my older broder's friend. He never looked at me, I was "the little syster." The funny thing is that after a couple of years and after I was over him, he started to pay more attention to me, too bad that I was rrrrrreally over him. I remember becoming more outgoing and independent during those years, just like Ginny. As Berit very well explains it, the guy started to see me as myself and not as my brother's little syster... The same will probably happen with Harry. Maybe, when he decides that he likes Ginny, she is going to really be over him, who knows... Irene From nydede9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 16:20:10 2004 From: nydede9 at yahoo.com (Deanna Benfante) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:20:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040211162010.95350.qmail@web60702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90752 doliesl wrote: Contrary to those who wished Snape *dead*, I have the feeling he will continue to survive till the end of the series. He's a bit too hardass to die. Are they really thinking of killing off Prof. Snape!!!!!!!!????????? I sure hope not - he's one of the 'biggest' reasons why I love these books, and the movies (especially). Deanna From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Feb 12 02:55:26 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:55:26 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <149.218a262d.2d5aee2a@aol.com> Message-ID: <402B85CE.549.15C5614@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 90753 On 10 Feb 2004 at 21:32, BrwNeil at aol.com wrote: > I can't believe I've let myself be drawn into this discussion, but here goes. > > My first question is which came first, ships or fanfiction? I can't believe > that anyone upon first reading SS or CoS even thinks about ships unless they > have been brainwashed by fanfiction. These are 11 and 12 year old kids. They > will be 17 when they leave Hogwarts. What percentage of people in the world > marry someone from their graduating class? Yet we have determined that Harry > and Ron must pick their future mates from either their class or the one > directly behind them. Personally, I'm not into shipping - it just doesn't figure in my reading. Maybe Harry will wind up marrying a classmate - maybe he won't. For the moment, it doesn't concern me one way or the other. But the Wizarding World is different to our own - somebody I notice has just mentioned one point I was going to make - that it is a world at war, and when that happens, people often do marry much younger than they would in times of peace. But there's more to it than that. In many ways, the Wizarding World seems more... primitive than ours. I don't mean that in a bad way - but to me it seems to me to be in many ways, a rather old fashioned society. And in such societies, again, it wasn't uncommon for people to marry very soon after they became adults - and in the Wizarding World, they seem to become adults at 17. Both in law - and in fact, as well. We really don't get a great view of wizards on the cusp of adulthood - we've really seen Percy, and Fred and George at this stage only. Percy is working at the Ministry straight out of school - and after a relatively short time, he's in a position of some responsibility. Fred and George do start their own business very early. It seems to me that unlike our modern world - where somebody in their late teens really is still generally seen as a pseudo- child - they may have adult rights, but most people really don't expect them to really be adults, in the wizarding world, they do. I find myself looking quite a bit at the scenes of the disturbances just after the Quidditch World Cup in Goblet of Fire. Mr Weasley sends the children into the forest to hide - but his older sons - including Percy is only barely out of school - all charge off with him to help deal with the disturbance. Percy *is* an adult. Maybe the fact that there's no Wizarding universities make a difference - to an extent the existence of the University in our society, acts as a buffer between childhood and adulthood. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 03:19:59 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:19:59 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90754 Neil wrote: > Probably for the same reason that she led us in her interviews to believe > that Hagrid would be the one to die in book 5. Yes, she is the author and she > wants everyone to be surprised, so she tries to mislead us. Hitomi: When was that interview? I never remember being led to believe Hagrid was going to die, I just remember everyone thinking he would, plus the interview Robbie gave, which was completely misleading. But honestly, JKR is always pretty honest in the straight answers she gives, otherwise she just avoids the question. And she has basically said in interviews there will be NO H/H ship. So, I'm going with that. I don't know if it's because you're a guy and I'm a girl (a much younger one, too), but your earlier comment of Ron not being good enough for Hermione struck me as rather harsh. I think I sympathize with him more. Hermione isn't perfect, she can be very annoying and overbearing, and Ron plays those traits down with her. He makes her feel as if it's okay to be just Hermione. And this is Miss Over- achiever, who over-achieves because she's insecure, like a lot of girls I knew in school, like I felt when I was younger (and according to JKR, herself). I've since relaxed and toned down, but I've always seen Ron's treatment of Hermione as a healthy contrast. And it's obvious he'd do anything for her. That's more important than "how good he is for her," I think. If he loves her enough (on the chance they do get together), then that's all that matters, or should matter, anyway. Neil wrote: > Personally I agree with the writer who suggested that something is currently > going on between Ron and Hermione behind Harry's back. If this is true the > question is which ship does it help. Hitomi: I've heard this theory a lot lately, but I just don't see it. I do think there is something going on there, but I doubt Ron has realized it, though Hermione might have. Like the situation when she kissed him on the cheek, or when Hermione expressed Ron was clueless when talking to Harry (after Harry's date, something along the lines of "Oh Harry, you're worse than Ron," then, "actually, no, you're not.") Or the situation when she was writing to Krum, and Ron gets jealous, or when they were talking about Harry's kiss, and Hermione says that of course, Harry isn't a bad kisser, and the first thing Ron does is round on Hermione and demand how she knows. They like each other, it's rather obvious, at least to me, but they don't seem to be actually dating at all. And Harry isolates himself more in Book 5, leaving Ron and Hermione alone together more. They don't necessarily search out time alone to be together, and they're usually trying to help Harry, but they can't altogether relate to what he's going through. So, they discuss him a lot (to Harry's chagrin). Neil wrote: > Would a hidden R/H relationship now grow through the course of books 6 and 7 > or would it only serve to convince them that it wouldn't work and open the > door for other options? > > It would at least expalin why Hermione spent the summer with Ron. Hitomi: I don't know if Ron and Hermione will get together, it just seems to me to be the most likely couple, besides its conspicuousness. And didn't Hermione and Ron spend the summer together to help with the Order? Ron just invited her over like he always does, except this time, he couldn't invite Harry, too. Harry had to stay at the Dursleys', on DD's orders. Again, another example of Harry being isolated from them. I don't think the bond between the trio has weakened, if anything, it's stronger, but I do think another kind of relationship is forming between the two most alike, or most put together. Harry has always stood apart from them, ever since Book 1. He's the leader, and the one who goes off on his own the most. Ron and Hermione are his support, but he is also independent of them. And Harry is closer to Ron than he is to Hermione, he's his "best mate," etc. Harry loves them equally, but I agree with what JKR said. Harry and Hermione love each other, in a very platonic way. Feel free to argue ;) ~ Hitomi, who, though not a R/H shipper, would prefer Hermione with Ron over Harry; and who still thinks H/H is just... ew From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 12 03:32:43 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:32:43 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a metamorphagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90755 "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: snip> SB: We're going to take a few more questions, and um, the next > one is > will Harry ever turn into a shape-changer like his father? > > JKR: Animagus. No, Harry's not in training to be an animagus, and > if > you've read book three, you won't know ? um, that's a > wizard that's > very, very difficult to do. They learn to turn themselves into > animals. No, Harry is not, Harry is going to be concentrated > elsewhere, he's not going to have time to do that. He's got > quite a > full agenda coming up, poor boy.~~ > > Just think what Harry might learn if he could transform into... > Snape. ;-) > > "K" This is so classic for JKR! I must admit in advance that I believe Harry is a metamorphmagus, primarily because it would be such a COOL thing to find out about himself that no one else knows. Just imagine Harry hiding on Magnolia Crescent from some horrible DE trying to figure out how he is going to get back to #4 when he focuses all of his being on becoming...Dudley! Imagine the fun! I see the connection with the hair as a very strong indicator. We know Harry re-grew his hair and what is it that Tonks changes? Her hair of course. Becoming an animagus is "very difficult" and he does not have time but we know from Tonks that Metamorphmagi(?) are born not made...no work there! Too much time to think about it...Hurry up Ms. Rowling! Sue From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Thu Feb 12 04:17:38 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 04:17:38 -0000 Subject: Basilisks and weasels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90756 This is a very interesting subject. I always thought that there is something about Ron and his peculiar Surname; however I don't think he will defeat Voldimort, only Harry can do that. Neville could have been the one to do that, but he was not marked by Voldie. However, there is something in CoS that I found peculiar. When we first visited the Burrow, I noticed that there were many frogs, frog spawn, and chickens running about, and I don't think I remember any roosters. It seems that it would be very easy for a basilisk to have been born there. Maybe I am missing something about wizard intervention, I don't know. I do have one thing that I don't get about your post though Burno, Ron's last name is Weasley,so are you suggesting that he can kill a basilisk because his name is similar to an animal that could kill one or are you suggesting that there might be something more to Ron? I do think that perhaps Ron were to become an animagus Weasel that could work, unless you are saying that JKR purposefully made Ron's last name Weasley to let us know that he can be deadly to a basilisk. Anyhow, though I do not agree with you about Ron defeating Lord Thingy, perhaps if Kneasy turns out right about there being a second (or more) basilisk(s), then Ron will play a big part in that. Sawsan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 04:43:14 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 04:43:14 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Charlotte: > I suppose the reason people try to pair off eventual > partners from within the school class is because JKR has set a > precedent for this with Harry's own parents. I'm not sure about > Molly and Arthur, but I always had the impression that they too met > at school. Maybe someone can enlighten me? > I'm not a SHIPPER but it seems to me that Hogwarts is the natural place--almost the only place--for young British witches and wizards to meet. Although I've read posts which suggest that Hogwarts takes only the elite, I see no evidence to confirm that. First, there's the magical quill that records the names of all the magical children in Britain as they're born; presumably all of those children are sent letters and most if not all accept the invitation to attend. There's no other wizarding school in Britain for them to attend. Second, Crabbe and Goyle were accepted (along with the previous Slytherin beaters whose names I can't remember), and they barely have the intelligence to pass their classes, which again indicates that they accept everybody. So does Helga Hufflepuff's philosophy. Maybe a few kids drop out early (I'm thinking of Stan Shunpike), but I'm sure that most stay at least until the end of fifth year when they have their OWLs. That being the case, I imagine that, like Arthur and Molly Weasley and James and Lily Potter, most British witches and wizards meet their future mates at Hogwarts. (Unless, of course, you're a member of the small social circle that used to include the Blacks and the Malfoys and have to marry some sort of cousin.) Carol, who thinks they ought to have a Yule Ball every year and not just during the Tri-Wizard Tournament From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 04:55:55 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 04:55:55 -0000 Subject: Is Harry a metamorphagus? In-Reply-To: <008f01c3f0ed$d75df400$9701a8c0@odyssey.local> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90758 Sarah: Then I remembered the polyjuice potion. I guess one could argue that the magical principles are not the same, since the polyjuice is making Harry into Goyle, a totally different person, not just changing his features around. Carol: Harry retains his own mind, memories, and personality when he takes the polyjuice potion, as does Ron. They have to *pretend* to be Crabbe and Goyle. And Barty Crouch has to take on a much more extended masquerade, pretending to be Mad-Eye Moody for about nine months. He has to force the real Moody (using the Imperius curse) to reveal his memories, habits, etc., so he can imitatte them. Polyjuice doesn't turn Crouch into Moody. It only enables him to sound and look like him, and to use his false leg and magical eye. The real Moody and the real Crabbe and Goyle still exist; they aren't replaced by their imitators. So do the real Harry and Ron and Barty, Jr. They only look and sound like someone else, but they're still the same people they always were. Carol From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 05:12:37 2004 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (JuHu) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:12:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040212051237.66400.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90759 Justine74 at aol.com said: And keeping all this "bringing in new people into Harry's life" and "shaking things up" thoughts in mind, I just can't shake this "Harry falls for Susan Bones in Book 6 or 7" feeling that I got after reading OOTP. Everytime I mention it to someone I know who reads the books they always have a good laugh, and so do I, because I know the theory is definitely out of the mainstream to say the least . I reply: Ah, now I'm glad you've brought up Susan Bones. I've been wondering about her for awhile now, because of some (alas!) movie contamination. Why has she been given so much screen time when we've seen neither hide nor hair of Lavender and Parvati? She was sitting with Hermione in the boat on the first-year trip across the lake, she was the only other person shown being sorted besides the trio and Malfoy, and we see her sitting by Hermione in Lockhart's first class. Why? When I first saw the first movie I couldn't figure out who the heck she was, I still wasn't a huge fan at that point and didn't know all the characters inside and out. Now that I've become an obsessive freak, I've been keeping an eye on her, wondering what JKR has in store for her. Does anyone else have theory about what role she will play? A H/S ship is interesting. I've been a closet H/G, H/R shipper, rooting for Ginny because I liked the same guy for five years in secondary school and he never returned it (someone suggested Ginny will have really moved on by the time Harry notices her, ah, it's so Send in the Clowns-ish). I also identify with the H/R bickering because arguing was a staple of this same guy's and my very close friendship, it flexed our brain muscles to debate issues. It was fun and never hurt our friendship. However, I'm starting to realize that it doesn't matter to me if Harry ends up with Hermione or Angelina Johnson, as long as he gets some happiness out of this crummy hand he's been dealt. Okay, that's my two knuts on the shipping issue. Any thoughts on Susan Bones? JuHu, curling up in a fetal position, to weather another night without book six... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com Thu Feb 12 05:24:47 2004 From: flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com (Diana Walter) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 05:24:47 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <20040212051237.66400.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90760 JuHu: > Ah, now I'm glad you've brought up Susan Bones. I've > been wondering about her for awhile now, because of > some (alas!) movie contamination. Why has she been > given so much screen time when we've seen neither hide > nor hair of Lavender and Parvati? She was sitting with > Hermione in the boat on the first-year trip across the > lake, she was the only other person shown being sorted > besides the trio and Malfoy, and we see her sitting by > Hermione in Lockhart's first class. Why? When I first > saw the first movie I couldn't figure out who the heck > she was, I still wasn't a huge fan at that point and > didn't know all the characters inside and out. Now > that I've become an obsessive freak, I've been keeping > an eye on her, wondering what JKR has in store for > her. Does anyone else have theory about what role she > will play? The girl who played her in the movies is Chris Columbus' daughter. Still, that doesn't mean she won't be important later, and I love it when students outside of Gryffindor are given actual personalities. So I'm hoping she gets more developed too. --daw From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Thu Feb 12 06:02:06 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:02:06 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90761 Carol wrote: That being the case, I imagine that, like Arthur and Molly > Weasley and James and Lily Potter, most British witches and wizards > meet their future mates at Hogwarts. (Unless, of course, you're a > member of the small social circle that used to include the Blacks and > the Malfoys and have to marry some sort of cousin.) I agree that it seems likely that Hogwarts would be the place for young witches and wizards too meet. However, there is one thing that makes me confused about love and marriage in the wizarding world. I have noticed that not many of our favorite adults seem to be married. For instance, DD never seems to leave Hogwarts, and that would definitely not be good for a marriage; likewise the other professors, teachers, etc. The only one of the Marauders who was definitely married was James. Sirius, being handsome and popular, could have gotten married, but didn't. Lupin, maybe because of his "condition" did not want to get married, but I am sure there are nice werewolf girls who would love such a sweet man. Heck, I wouldn't put it past some girls to love to see their husband unleash his umm animal instincts. Peter could have found himself a girl, possibly Bertha Jorkins. I know I have no canon to support that these people were not married; but I see no canon to prove they were. The only married couples seem to be the parents of the children, but that is obvious, there would not be a school if people did not have children. I dont know what I am trying to say really except maybe I am just wondering why the majority of the people closest to Harry do not seem to be married and perhaps Harry might travel that road as well. I doubt that is likely, but for now, I don't even think Harry is in any mood for love; so shipping for him at least will be pointless. For Hermione and Ron however; I travelled that route and it is very hard; though I don't necessarily regret it. I think Hermione needs someone, whether Ron or Harry or Joe Shmo, who can support her and not tick her off every 5 minutes and vice versa. Austen's characters were very opposite, and learned to deal with it quite well, but I just don't see any chemistry as of now between Hermione and Ron. I don't even see Hermione caring for anyone that way anyhow. But as I stated before; I am horrible at reading between the lines. :D Sawsan From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Thu Feb 12 06:15:12 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:15:12 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <20040212051237.66400.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90762 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JuHu wrote: > Justine74 at a... said: > > And keeping all this "bringing in new people into > Harry's life" and "shaking things up" thoughts in > mind, I just can't shake this "Harry falls for Susan > Bones in Book 6 or 7" feeling that I got after reading > OOTP. Everytime I mention it to someone I know who > reads the books they always have a good laugh, and so > do I, because I know the theory is definitely out of > the mainstream to say the least . > > JuHu wrote: > > Ah, now I'm glad you've brought up Susan Bones. I've > been wondering about her for awhile now, because of > some (alas!) movie contamination. Why has she been > given so much screen time when we've seen neither hide > nor hair of Lavender and Parvati? She was sitting with > Hermione in the boat on the first-year trip across the > lake, she was the only other person shown being sorted > besides the trio and Malfoy, and we see her sitting by > Hermione in Lockhart's first class. Why? When I first > saw the first movie I couldn't figure out who the heck > she was, I still wasn't a huge fan at that point and > didn't know all the characters inside and out. Now > that I've become an obsessive freak, I've been keeping > an eye on her, wondering what JKR has in store for > her. Does anyone else have theory about what role she > will play? > > A H/S ship is interesting. I've been a closet H/G, H/R > shipper, rooting for Ginny because I liked the same > guy for five years in secondary school and he never > returned it (someone suggested Ginny will have really > moved on by the time Harry notices her, ah, it's so > Send in the Clowns-ish). I also identify with the H/R > bickering because arguing was a staple of this same > guy's and my very close friendship, it flexed our > brain muscles to debate issues. It was fun and never > hurt our friendship. However, I'm starting to realize > that it doesn't matter to me if Harry ends up with > Hermione or Angelina Johnson, as long as he gets some > happiness out of this crummy hand he's been dealt. Sawsan here: Ok this is more like it. I felt the same about Susan Bones getting attention in the first book; then minor mentions here and there; and then in OotP, Harry doesn't know her, but he knows she's in Hufflepuff. She seems sweet, brave, and knows how it is to have the Dark Mark lingering above her door. Don't get me wrong, I love Ginny, even Luna; but IMO Susan seems so far like a good choice for Harry (but I don't think he's in the mood anyway knowing his fate now and all). Unfortunately, she's in Hufflepuff, so I don't imagine too much interaction can happen between them, unless Harry continues the DA, and he eventually notices her. I feel for Ginny, and even though I love Harry, she needs to move on; which apparently she has; with Michael Corner, Neville (in GoF), and now apparently Dean Thomas. As for Hermione, well as much as I would love for H/Hr to happen, I just don't see a happy marriage between her and Ron. Who knows, she might end up with Krum or maybe even Percy, if he ever grows out of his "pompous, idiotic, git" stage. Sawsan, who agrees with Carol about a yearly Yule Ball. From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Thu Feb 12 09:13:05 2004 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:13:05 -0000 Subject: Perkins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90763 > > Bohcoo: (snipped) > > I think Perkins from Arthur Weasley's office and good old Mrs. Figg > > are an "item." > Bookworm: > A purrfectly good connection. The only issue I see with it is that > Harry has spent a lot of time at Mrs. Figg's house when the Dursleys > wanted to get rid of him for a while. (snip) I don't think that would be a problem, since Harry doesn't seem to spend a lot of time there. When Mrs Figg had a broken leg on Dudley's birthday in PS, Harry thinks to himself that he won't have to look at her cat pictures for a whole year. (It could be that I'm missing some other reference to Figgy, of course, but I don't have the time to look through all the books right now.) Eva. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 12 11:41:22 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:41:22 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] In-Reply-To: <20040212051237.66400.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90765 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JuHu wrote: > Justine74 at a... said: > >> Ah, now I'm glad you've brought up Susan Bones. I've > been wondering about her for awhile now, because of > some (alas!) movie contamination. Why has she been > given so much screen time when we've seen neither hide > nor hair of Lavender and Parvati? She was sitting with > Hermione in the boat on the first-year trip across the > lake, she was the only other person shown being sorted > besides the trio and Malfoy, and we see her sitting by > Hermione in Lockhart's first class. Why? Siriusly Snapey Susan now: This is very interesting, JuHu! It may very well be that JKR requested that Steve Kloves include her more often [while allowing PEEVES!?! to be cut out (hmmphf!)], or it may be something as mundane as what Diana pointed about the actress being Chris Columbus' daughter. Personally, I think it may have to do with symmetry or balance in some of those early SS scenes. Harry & Ron, Hermione & ____? When students are sitting in a boat or sitting at a desk which seats two, they may simply have wanted another female first year to fill that space. Of course, that still begs the question of why Susan Bones and not Lavender or Parvati.... Siriusly Snapey Susan From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Feb 12 12:21:40 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:21:40 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90766 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: (snipped) > To me these posts are saying that Voldemort is possessed (obviously). > But when some one is possessed are they responsible for their actions? > Can they make choices of their own free will? No, they cannot. It's > like when someone is under the Imperius Curse, they are under someone > else's control. If Voldemort is possessed, he is not a bad guy. He is > just a tool for the use of another even worse guy. Also I do not think it > would be in line with the importance of choices in the books. DD > says that it is our choices that make us who we are. If Voldemort was > possessed he would not be an interesting bad guy. It is his choices > that have turned him into who he is today; he is not a possessed > victim but rather an evil mastermind. > > In closing, I think that if Voldemort is possessed he would lose some > accountability for his actions after being possessed, because they > were not made out of his free will, but rather Salazar's. > I can see the point that you're making, but IMO it does not necessarily invalidate the possession theory. You have to ask yourself some other questions - are the choices we make irrevocable? Is it possible in JKR's world to change your mind? I think it is. Let me briefly summarise my thinking, mostly as an escape from the posts of the fevered bunch who have succumbed to the SHIPping-itis outbreak. Fortunately, some of us have been innoculated against romance, or maybe it's a function of age. We saw at the Ministry, just what possession is like to the one possessed when Voldy briefly took Harry over. He became a puppet of Voldy with no control over his actions or speech but his mind still remained his own. This is key, I think. This is what I believe happened to Tom Riddle, but Tom, whether by choice or design did not, or could not break free. This could get alarmingly metaphysical and the names do not allow for easy separation of identity, but I'll try to break it down as clearly as I'm able: The Voldemort in the books consists of at least two entities within the same physical body - let's call them Voldy!Sally and Voldy!Tom and the combination Lord Voldemort. Voldy!Sally is the disembodied entity that was placed in the Chamber by Salazar, lying in wait for any unwary individual who happened to drop in. Voldy!Sally is not a person; it is easier to think of it as a force for evil. Voldy!Sally *needed* a physical body to carry out Salazar's noble work. He got Tom. Tom was subsumed as Voldy!Tom, the junior member of the partnership. I assume that Voldy!Sally offered the usual inducements - power, riches, revenge, arcane knowledge, immortality; the usual stuff. Tom was presumably satisfied with the arrangement; it suited his nasty disposition and would enable him to wreak his revenge on what he thought of as an uncaring and unfair society. And so the Lord Voldemort we all know and love was born. Dumbledore knows all this, or at least has strong suspicions. Voldy!Sally is just a force; it is an aspect of Salazar, it does not have a mind to change, it cannot repent. But Voldy!Tom can, and if DD can get through to what remains of Tom and somehow persuade him to break the partnership, to resist the urgings of Voldy!Sally, then it will lead to a split that may result in the destruction or weakening of the whole. And Voldy!Sally can be resisted, Harry shows that. But it's not easy and it is painful. DD, being the daft old duffer that he is, does not think in terms of killing and destruction, he thinks in terms of repentance and redemption. To trot out an old quote, "There is no such thing as a bad boy." Tom can be saved but only if Tom *chooses* to be saved. To make the wrong choice leads to the "thing worse than death" in his book. And Harry has shown Tom how to do it. (Will Harry have to repeat the lesson? There's a thought. Harry tempted, re-possessed and then making the choice that is being offered to Tom. Possibly the first real choice he has had in the series - everything else has been decided for him by others and Harry is showing signs of a worryingly bloody-minded and stubborn independence.) As a FEATHERBOA fanatic, I see that this could lead to a distressingly gore -free conclusion, with at least one of the major battles being an internal one inside Lord Voldemort, (Boo! Hiss! I want blood!) but it might just chime with the moral viewpoint that JKR is believed to espouse. I've no real evidence for all this, of course, except for JKR's comment about Salazar leaving something of himself in the Chamber; plus the behaviour of DD in calling Voldy "Tom" when they meet in the Ministry and his refusal to even attempt to destroy Lord Voldemort. Can't think of another theory that ties all these three together so satisfactorily. But like all theories it all depends on JKR co-operating. We shall see. Kneasy From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Thu Feb 12 14:22:29 2004 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:22:29 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Hermione learning to be an animagus ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <402B8C25.3010704@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90767 > > JKR: Animagus. No, Harry's not in training to be an animagus, So that does not rule out Hermione. As top of the class in almost everything - ie excluding DADA - and having the Transfiguration teacher for her Head of House, I wonder if she is practising in secret? Can you see her and Crookshanks gambolling about after curfew? LOL Another thought - do you think its possible to transform animagically into a magical beast like a demiguise? Could that be Dumbledore's secret of invisibility? digger From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 14:28:07 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:28:07 -0000 Subject: Molly's role (was Ship predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90768 > Inge: > > > > So far Mollys 'part' of the Order seems to have mostly been > > cooking > > > and cleaning... > > David wrote: > > > But this misses part of the point. Harry understands > > that 'cleaning' in a house that has been occupied by dark wizards > > is more akin to a war. Ginger butts in to add: David, I loved the idea (partially snipped) that the house may have hidden an enemy entity (say that 3 times fast) a la the diary. I had never thought of that before. Paula continues: > I mean no disrespect to anyone who cleans for a living or a hobby, > but I thought Molly's role as cleaner wasn't important at all. She > seemed to need a lot of help and fail at certain parts of this job. > There seemed to be little risk involved, especially compared to the > risk other members of the Order faced. > > I also wasn't impressed that she was saddled with the cooking chores. > > Paula Ginger again: I perceived it as Molly doing what she did best. If you have never cleaned and cooked for a large group, it can be daunting. As a spinster living alone, I have become adept at ramen noodles, but having loads of resturant experience, as well as having been the cook of the family when mom worked evenings, I can whip up a turkey dinner if needed. Are there any other members of the order who hang out regularly at 12 Grimmauld who could do it? Sirius? No experience. Lupin? Too accustomed to dining alone (occupational hazard). Arthur or any Weasley kid? Nope, Molly always did it. Harry or Hermione? Hmmmmmm, probably not. They are from small families. Snape never ate there, and the others just drifted in and out occasionally. There's also the use of magic in Molly's cooking. To her it probably seems easy, but if one didn't know the proper spells, it could be anything from difficult to dangerous. I think Molly would be the sort who would just step in and take over the kitchen. She kind of reminds me of my Grandma in that way. Wander in with a vague idea of cooking something, wander out with a feast. At least that's how I read it. I think she likes what she does. She is the queen of the kitchen and she knows it. And quite frankly, the order needed her there badly when the kids were around. Ginger, still laughing at Petunia Pig. Good one, Carol! From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Thu Feb 12 15:27:23 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:27:23 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90769 > Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: > This is very interesting, JuHu! It may very well be that JKR > requested that Steve Kloves include her more often [while allowing > PEEVES!?! to be cut out (hmmphf!)], or it may be something as > mundane as what Diana pointed about the actress being Chris > Columbus' daughter. Personally, I think it may have to do with > symmetry or balance in some of those early SS scenes. Harry & Ron, > Hermione & ____? When students are sitting in a boat or sitting at > a desk which seats two, they may simply have wanted another female > first year to fill that space. > > Of course, that still begs the question of why Susan Bones and not > Lavender or Parvati.... Sawsan now: I am not sure that she won't have any significance. She is Amelia Bones niece, who is a part of the Wizengamot and is friendly with Arthur Weasley. Amelia Bones apparently spoke highly of Harry to Susan (mentioning he can produce a corpreal patronus); which got her to join the DA. She is one of the few non Gryffindors that I can remember easily for some reason. That leads me to believe that she is mentioned quite a few times. I would guess that JKR is the one who mentions her, as Harry never seemed to notice her before the DA meetings in OotP. He knew she was a Hufflepuff, but didn't know her name. Perhaps now that Voldie's return is out in the open, we will see more of Susan and Amelia Bones. I once wanted her and Ron to get together, but now that the possiblity of her and Harry being together has come out, I think I like that idea better, if Harry can't be with Hermione :P Sawsan, who will miss Richard Harris(1st Dumbledore) in the PoA movie; God rest his soul. From kking0731 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 12 04:49:48 2004 From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:49:48 -0500 Subject: Luna Lovegood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90770 I've recently been thinking a lot about Luna. I haven't heard many negative thoughts on her, only 'ship type issues. Anyway, I was thinking more of her as being bad. When I was thinking back at the first time that all the kids were in the death room, Luna seemed to be the only one truly unaffected by the veil. Yes, she commented on it but in a way that appeared provoking. All the others where either entranced to some degree or in Hermione's case scared of it, yet Luna didn't appear to be either of those. More like she was egging Harry on. When Harry was calling for Sirius through the veil, Luna said "There are people in there!" Hermione said "There isn't any 'in there, its just an archway, there's no room for anybody to be there." Harry appears to be taking some comfort in talking with Luna at the end of Oop. Harry wants anyone to agree with him or to give him some kind of hope of seeing Sirius again. Is Luna leading him to the veil by saying "In that room with the archway. They were just lurking out of sight, thats all. You heard them." My question is could she be on Voldemorts side? Maybe daddy is Vs supporter? Any thoughts? Kathy From cubs9911 at aol.com Thu Feb 12 15:41:28 2004 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:41:28 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) JKR interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90771 > I agree that it seems likely that Hogwarts would be the place for > young witches and wizards too meet. However, there is one thing that > makes me confused about love and marriage in the wizarding world. I > have noticed that not many of our favorite adults seem to be married. > > For instance, DD never seems to leave Hogwarts, and that would > definitely not be good for a marriage; likewise the other professors, > teachers, etc. > > Sawsan Maybe someone can help me out with this. But I am fairly certain that I read in an interview with JKR that some of the professors are married and that it will come in to play later on. If anyone remembers reading this also let me know. JR From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Thu Feb 12 15:41:25 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:41:25 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90772 Kneasy wrote: > As a FEATHERBOA fanatic, I see that this could lead to a distressingly gore > -free conclusion, with at least one of the major battles being an internal > one inside Lord Voldemort, (Boo! Hiss! I want blood!) but it might just > chime with the moral viewpoint that JKR is believed to espouse. > > I've no real evidence for all this, of course, except for JKR's comment > about Salazar leaving something of himself in the Chamber; plus the > behaviour of DD in calling Voldy "Tom" when they meet in the Ministry > and his refusal to even attempt to destroy Lord Voldemort. Can't think > of another theory that ties all these three together so satisfactorily. > > But like all theories it all depends on JKR co-operating. We shall see. Sawsan here: That theory seems entirely probable. I think you've got a good idea of what might happen. It makes sense, not only for the reasons you have given, but because we find Harry forgiving that backstabber Peter and because all the death and gore we have encountered is presumably not the worst thing that could happen. I think there will be a lot of death and gore, but I don't think Voldie will die that way. I think Harry has to find Tom (inside Voldie, and no I don't mean go into his body in anyway), smack him up a bit to bring him to his senses, and then somehow "show him the light" as they say. That would be magic indeed. For all the things that are usually impossible that have become possible in the HP series, Voldie turning good is one that is considered completely impossible; a lost cause I guess. So if that is the case, I would like to see how JKR writes that, because it will either be difficult to write well or it will be entirely sappy. Sawsan, who chooses to ignore Kneasy's comment on SHIPpingitis and snide remarks about Harry and DD. From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Thu Feb 12 15:46:02 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:46:02 -0000 Subject: Is Hermione learning to be an animagus ? In-Reply-To: <402B8C25.3010704@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90773 Digger wrote: > > JKR: Animagus. No, Harry's not in training to be an animagus, > > So that does not rule out Hermione. As top of the class in almost > everything - ie excluding DADA - and having the Transfiguration teacher > for her Head of House, I wonder if she is practising in secret? Can you > see her and Crookshanks gambolling about after curfew? LOL > > Another thought - do you think its possible to transform animagically > into a magical beast like a demiguise? Could that be Dumbledore's secret > of invisibility? Sawsan here: I am not sure about the magical beast theory you have there Digger, but as for the Hermione!Animagus theory, I dont think that is likely. The only thing I can see Hermione doing is transfiguring into a house elf or something (or maybe transfiguring others who dont care for house elves into house elves). Just kidding. I personally think there are enough animagi, though I would love to see more metamorphmagi in the series. Sawsan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 12 15:50:20 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:50:20 -0000 Subject: Possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > The Voldemort in the books consists of at least two entities within > the same physical body - let's call them Voldy!Sally and Voldy!Tom > and the combination Lord Voldemort. > Voldy!Sally is the disembodied entity that was placed in the > Chamber by Salazar, lying in wait for any unwary individual who > happened to drop in. > Voldy!Sally is not a person; it is easier to think of it as a > force for evil. Voldy!Sally *needed* a physical body to carry out > Salazar's noble work. > He got Tom. > Dumbledore knows all this, or at least has strong suspicions. > Voldy!Sally is just a force; it is an aspect of Salazar, it does > not have a mind to change, it cannot repent. But Voldy!Tom can, and > if DD can get through to what remains of Tom and somehow persuade > him to break the partnership, to resist the urgings of Voldy!Sally, > then it will lead to a split that may result in the destruction or > weakening of the whole. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Fascinating idea, Kneasy!! See questions below. > DD, being the daft old duffer that he is, does not think in terms > of killing and destruction, he thinks in terms of repentance and > redemption. To trot out an old quote, "There is no such thing as a > bad boy." Tom can be saved but only if Tom *chooses* to be saved. > ****To make the wrong choice leads to the "thing worse than death" > in his book. And Harry has shown Tom how to do it.*** [Emphasis added by SSSusan.] > > (Will Harry have to repeat the lesson? There's a thought. Harry > tempted, re-possessed and then making the choice that is being > offered to Tom. Possibly the first real choice he has had in the > series - everything else has been decided for him by others.... Siriusly Snapey Susan: Kneasy, I'm not sure if I agree with all of this but, as usual with your theories, it is well thought-out and well-explained. I do have questions about these last two paragraphs. Can you please flesh these out a little more? In particular: 1) What precisely do you mean when you say making the wrong choice leads to the "thing worse than death" and that Harry has SHOWN Tom how to do it? 2) Can you describe what you're referring to in the last paragraph I snipped? Repeating what lesson? What first real choice? I'm not trying to be dense [really!]; I would like to understand more fully. Merci, Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 12 15:53:45 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:53:45 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: Harry knew she was a Hufflepuff, but didn't know her name. Sawsan, I think this was the point of the original post. It's precisely because in the books Harry DOESN'T know who she is 'til DADA that makes it seem weird that she shows up so much in the MOVIES. I, too, btw, think she will have a larger role to play in the last two books. Siriusly Snapey Susan From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Thu Feb 12 15:59:37 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:59:37 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90776 "Kathy King"wrote: > > I've recently been thinking a lot about Luna. I haven't heard many negative > thoughts on her, only 'ship type issues. Anyway, I was thinking more of her > as being bad. When I was thinking back at the first time that all the kids > were in the death room, Luna seemed to be the only one truly unaffected by > the veil. Yes, she commented on it but in a way that appeared provoking. All > the others where either entranced to some degree or in Hermione's case > scared of it, yet Luna didn't appear to be either of those. More like she > was egging Harry on. When Harry was calling for Sirius through the veil, > Luna said "There are people in there!" Hermione said "There isn't any 'in > there, its just an archway, there's no room for anybody to be there." > > Harry appears to be taking some comfort in talking with Luna at the end of > Oop. Harry wants anyone to agree with him or to give him some kind of hope > of seeing Sirius again. Is Luna leading him to the veil by saying "In that > room with the archway. They were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You > heard them." > > My question is could she be on Voldemort's side? Maybe daddy is V's > supporter? Sawsan here: I doubt it Kathy. Luna is pretty strange, but I don't think she is evil. She just believes in things that have not been proven, which always provokes Hermione into some sort of argument about how it couldn't be true etc. SO the scene at the veil is probably another of Hermione's rantings of how Luna is ludicrous, or perhaps Hermione feels that the veil could be dangerous and wanted to pull as many of her friends away from it before they got too drawn into it. Hermione cannot hear the voices apparently, but she couldn't see thestrals either; so that proves that perhaps Luna knows about stuff that just isn't written in books. Yeah I think she can go overboard, but that doesn't mean she's a complete nutter. I think that she is quite used to death, and therefore doesn't fear it at all. She seems to have made peace with death after her mother, but she has hope of seeing her again. She has something in common with Harry that Hermione and Ron don't, so I think she will be a person he will turn to when he needs some answers about the unknown; or perhaps she will be someone he can talk to about loss and death; as Billy Crystal says; its a process. Sawsan From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Feb 12 16:40:41 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:40:41 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <124.2ac8d477.2d5c314a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90778 Neil: >> I'll give you that Ron is better at chess and Quidditch than Hermione, but to say he is better at Divination is stretching things a bit. Harry and Ron both try to lie and fake their way thru the class and nether will get an owl. Hermione at least had the courage of her convictions and said it was bunk. She is taking a class in which she will receive an owl.<< Pippin: Hmmmm. Can we be sure they won't get an OWL? I know they blew the practical, or think they did, but how important is that? If there's one thing Firenze and Trelawney agree on, it's that practical divination is very difficult and *no one*, not even a proven Seer, can be expected to do it on demand. That could be one of JKR's surprises. We'll just have to wait and see. If they do get the OWL, I don't think Hermione will let them quit. And even if Divination is, in the main, the fine old art of telling people what they want to hear, it's still a useful and highly marketable skill. Much more in demand than a gift for telling people exactly what you think of them, as Hermione has finally learned. Neil: >>I'm going to stand back and wait for the bricks to be thrown, but Hermione is my favorite character in canon. If she were my daughter; I would be extremely proud. I'd also want the best for her. In my opinion she can do much better than Ron. << Pippin: I'd be proud to have Hermione as a daughter too. But I'd also be proud to have a son like Ron. I'm not sure what you mean by "better than Ron", could you explain it? He's immature compared to Harry, but time will take care of that. And Hermione's not quite as grown up as she thinks she is anyway. Hiding hats for the House Elves--now really! IMO, Ron's a kind, caring person, and in far better shape, emotionally and physically, than Harry will ever be. He's no supernova, but he's got enough talent to make his way in the world. I don't think Hermione would end up supporting him or anything like that. He's the kind of 'B' student that 'A' students end up working for, in fact, to the extent that Hermione lets him piggyback on her research, that's happening already ;-) Pippin From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 16:59:41 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:59:41 -0000 Subject: Is Hermione learning to be an animagus ? In-Reply-To: <402B8C25.3010704@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90779 > Another thought - do you think its possible to transform animagically > into a magical beast like a demiguise? Could that be Dumbledore's secret > of invisibility? > > digger Some have speculated that DD actually is part demiguise, with the long beard and all. I can't remember where I read it, but it certainly makes sense to me. This would also be one explanation for his being able to see through invisibility cloaks, given that they are made from the hair of a demiguise. Julie From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 12 17:22:01 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:22:01 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90780 Kathy King wrote: > > I've recently been thinking a lot about Luna. I haven't heard many > > negative thoughts on her, only 'ship type issues. Anyway, I was > > thinking more of her as being bad. When I was thinking back at > > the first time that all the kids were in the death room, Luna > > seemed to be the only one truly unaffected by the veil. Yes, she > > commented on it but in a way that appeared provoking. All > > the others where either entranced to some degree or in Hermione's > > case scared of it, yet Luna didn't appear to be either of those. > > More like she was egging Harry on. When Harry was calling for > > Sirius through the veil, Luna said "There are people in there!" > > Hermione said "There isn't any 'in there, its just an archway, > > there's no room for anybody to be there." > > > Sawsan wrote: > I doubt it Kathy. Luna is pretty strange, but I don't think she is > evil. She just believes in things that have not been proven, which > always provokes Hermione into some sort of argument about how it > couldn't be true etc. SO the scene at the veil is probably another > of Hermione's rantings of how Luna is ludicrous, or perhaps Hermione > feels that the veil could be dangerous and wanted to pull as many of > her friends away from it before they got too drawn into it. Hermione > cannot hear the voices apparently, but she couldn't see thestrals > either; so that proves that perhaps Luna knows about stuff that just > isn't written in books. Yeah I think she can go overboard, but that > doesn't mean she's a complete nutter. Siriusly Snapey Susan here: I concur w/ what Sawsan has said. I DON'T think Luna was egging Harry on at all. I think Luna has this laaaaid back, calm demeanor which is very different from most other kids. It's not that she's complacent but she's...I don't know, less emotional? even-keeled? what the hell word am I looking for, folks?? Maybe I'm letting Jim Dale's interpretation of Luna color my impressions, but he just always has her saying things in a dreamy sort of slow, calm voice.... Anyway, things don't seem to "get to" her, and she seems to perceive things differently than her peers. She, frankly, gets on my nerves a little, but I don't think it means she's necessarily nuts nor at all that she's a "bad guy". Siriusly Snapey Susan From siskiou at msn.com Thu Feb 12 18:06:37 2004 From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:06:37 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: <124.2ac8d477.2d5c314a@aol.com> References: <124.2ac8d477.2d5c314a@aol.com> Message-ID: <1525914290.20040212100637@msn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90781 Hi, Wednesday, February 11, 2004, 5:30:50 PM, BrwNeil wrote: > I'm going to stand back and wait for the bricks to be thrown, but Hermione is > my favorite character in canon. If she were my > daughter; I would be extremely proud. I'd also want the > best for > her. Yes, Hermione is the kind of kid to make her parents proud by being a great achiever, and bringing home excellent grades. But as a parent, let me tell you that grades aren't everything, and what Hermione needs to still learn a it more is how to socialize without putting people off. She's the type of person who often has her heart in the right place, but what comes out of her mouth isn't quite in line with this. She can be incredible judgmental and arrogant, disregarding any opinions but her own, and it's hard to make friends this way. And as a parent, I would hope to not go down the road of trying to tell her, she should pick someone as a partner who is really "deserving" of her greatness. That person may never come. > In my opinion she can do much better than Ron. > And I don't just mean Harry. I'm not really a H/Hr > shipper as > much as I'm an anti R/Hr shipper. With this shipping business, so much seems to come down to which character we prefer, and there seems to be a lot of idealizing of said character involved. Faults are overlooked and only the good interactions of the preferred ship partners are remembered, while the the disliked possible partner somehow becomes much more negative than he/she really is. Thus, Harry and Hermione are seen as this incredible compatible pair, who is just surrounded by nothing but love and goodness, while Ron and Hermione turn into this constantly fighting pair, who never has a good interaction in five years, and wouldn't even be friends without Harry. I see it as perfectly possible for Ron *or* Harry to be a good partner for Hermione. I prefer R/Hr, because I see a slow build-up toward it, and find their interactions funny and enjoy the irony of their initial dislike turning into the opposite. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at msn.com Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 18:27:15 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:27:15 -0000 Subject: Choosing.....Who's taking the easy way out? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90782 They're all going to have to choose. Jo said it herself as well as through Dumbledore's voice. We saw in OOP how Volderot strategizes. The information about Sirius was crucial in getting Harry to the MOM. So, he goes after people's weaknesses. He attacks the area in the person's life that will affect them, or hurt them the most. I'm thinking of the scene in COS at Diagon Alley where we find out that Draco talks about HRH at home, as Lucius knows who they are when Harry is trapped in the cabinet. That's the same kind of information that Kreacher provided. Lucius knew that Sirius was extremely important to Harry, just as he knew three years ago that Ron and Hermione are Harry's best friends. I think Luciusthis information will prove useful later in the series. I used to think that Ron would possibly betray Harry in the last book because he's so insecure about money and acclaim. But, I have more faith in him as the books advance. He saw just how big a mistake Percy made when he sided against his parents and the order. Hermione will never betray Harry or the Order. She just wouldn't, she's got too much integrity. But, if they aren't likely to betray, then they're targets to be used by volderot, just like Sirius. What about the Dursley's? I've always wondered if Petunia herself had the power to invite Voldemort in, if she wanted.. Would the Dursley's betray Harry for the piles of Gold that LV would offer them? Or, would the Durley's even merrit an offer? Whould they just be killed, as LV must know how much anamosity exists between the Dursley's and Harry. Who else? Hagrid? About as much chance of becoming a death eater as Minister of Magic! Snape? I'm not even gonna touch that one...too greasy! McGonagall? She's still got secrets waiting to come out yet, not enough info. The rest of the staff? The astronomy teacher's a suspect, as is her class. But, I don't know about the rest of them.... The other students? Neville? I'd say not a chance in H**l! Neville will prove himself. I have no doubts. The slytherins? Oh, who knows? Who else will be given a chance to choose? Who will be usefule to LV? Who will not? From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 18:30:39 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:30:39 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90783 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JuHu > wrote: > > Justine74 at a... said: > > > >> Ah, now I'm glad you've brought up Susan Bones. I've > > been wondering about her for awhile now, because of > > some (alas!) movie contamination. Why has she been > > given so much screen time when we've seen neither hide > > nor hair of Lavender and Parvati? She was sitting with > > Hermione in the boat on the first-year trip across the > > lake, she was the only other person shown being sorted > > besides the trio and Malfoy, and we see her sitting by > > Hermione in Lockhart's first class. Why? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan now: > This is very interesting, JuHu! It may very well be that JKR > requested that Steve Kloves include her more often [while allowing > PEEVES!?! to be cut out (hmmphf!)], or it may be something as > mundane as what Diana pointed about the actress being Chris > Columbus' daughter. Personally, I think it may have to do with > symmetry or balance in some of those early SS scenes. Harry & Ron, > Hermione & ____? When students are sitting in a boat or sitting at > a desk which seats two, they may simply have wanted another female > first year to fill that space. Reason to Fight Movie Contamination #6: The girl who played Susan Bones is Chris Columbus's daughter. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Feb 12 18:39:38 2004 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:39:38 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <536187393.20040212103938@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90784 KG: > Just for fun (and to make your head spin), imagine what would happen > if a wizard in animagus form accidentally mated with an animal of > the species they turned into. (For example, pretend that McGonagall > accidentally mated with a cat or kneazle while in cat form). Would > the offspring be half-human but in cat form? Kneazles are supposed > to be very smart; imagine a half-human half kneazle running around. Me: Another question occurs to me: Assuming the theories that Sirius is gay are correct, is he still gay as a dog, or might he have mated with a bitch (a canine one, not Umbridge)? Carol: j> I'm not sure how far I want to go with this idea given that the HP j> series is (at least in theory) intended for children... JKR has denied HP has any "target audience", and besides which, the Oz books were most definitely originally intended for children, and yet that doesn't stop people making all sorts of "Adult" speculations (and new stories!) about Baum's universe. j> ... but we do have j> the pairing of Hagrid's wizard father and giant(ess) mother, which j> rather boggles the mind... Not half so mind-boggling as if the *male* is the giant! j> But your theory could plausibly account for the origin of j> centaurs (an animagus in horse form and a real horse). It seems j> preferable to the alternative (a horse and a woman or a mare and a j> man). Ugh. We really don't know how hybrid magical creatures come into being in the Potterverse. Does it say anywhere for certain that Hagrid actually *crossbred* (in the genetic sense) a fire crab and a manticore to create the Blast-Ended Skrewts? One other animagus question I've always had: Are animagi limited to extant and non-magical animals? Or could your animagus be a dragon, say, or a hippogriff, or even a dinosaur? If so, I like to speculate that if Lily *were* an animagus (Hasn't Jo said in interviews that she wasn't?), she would have been a unicorn. -- Dave, wizard in training Wand: 10-inch, unicorn hair Animagus form: The dinosaur _Oviraptor_ Patronus: A mermaid, whose human component resembles a rising young opera/choral diva. :) :) From Justine74 at aol.com Thu Feb 12 06:39:58 2004 From: Justine74 at aol.com (Justine74 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:39:58 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: <15a.2d77a744.2d5c79be@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90785 JuHu (lovefromhermione at yahoo.com) writes: ), in my opinion, the constant presence of Susan Bones in the movies does not necessarily provide foreshadowing of anything, because the girl playing Susan Bones is Chris Columbus's daughter. He could have just wanted his daughter to have a little role, and he just picked Susan Bones as the character for her to play. Then again, if I really want to stretch things, I guess I could ask, why Susan Bones? Why not someone else? Did JKR want Susan Bones to be something of a presence in the movies so she didn't just burst on the scene later on? Who knows? Maybe. But I'm thinking the first option, that CC just picked a character so his daughter could have a role is probably the more likely one, especially considering the fact that JKR only seems to tell the screenwriter, the director(s) and the actors only what they absolutely need to know. Because even if Susan Bones does become important later, the casting of Eleanor Columbus is not something that would hurt the plot or anything, (since Susan is presumably always in the background in the books) because they could always just recast later. So I guess we'll have to wait and see where Susan ends up. :-) JuHu (lovefromhermione at yahoo.com) writes: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90786 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > Kneasy, I'm not sure if I agree with all of this but, as usual with > your theories, it is well thought-out and well-explained. I do have > questions about these last two paragraphs. Can you please flesh > these out a little more? In particular: > > 1) What precisely do you mean when you say making the wrong choice > leads to the "thing worse than death" and that Harry has SHOWN Tom > how to do it? > > 2) Can you describe what you're referring to in the last paragraph I > snipped? Repeating what lesson? What first real choice? > > I'm not trying to be dense [really!]; I would like to understand more > fully. I'll admit to a bit of supposition (otherwise known as guesswork) on what DD considers to be a fate worse than death, though we can safely assume it's not the same as that in a Victorian pot-boiler. If the situation is as presented, Tom has a simple choice - resist and try for redemption or continue to submit to Voldy!Sally; it is that continued enslavement that IMO DD considers is worse than dying. Stuck in a near -immortal being, forever enacting the commands of another and maybe slowly losing whatever identity Voldy!Tom still retains. An eternal and irrevocable loss of self, dwindling down to a mere echo. Nasty. The "shown" bit is simple; Harry has been possessed but has broken free. He has shown it can be done and perhaps how to do it. Tom can't have but noticed how Harry got away. An example to follow? Your second question ties into posts I made a few months back. I had them in mind when I wrote the current piece but never thought to refer to them. Sorry. Some of us noticed that Harry has not continued with his Occlumancy lessons, so it's possible he is still vulnerable to intrusion and perhaps possession by Voldy. If this does happen (and I for one think it makes a neat plot line for book 6), then presumably he will have to break free again, thus repeating the lesson for Tom. As to Harry's choices - he's never had any. He had no choice at Godrics Hollow, he had no choice with the Dursleys, he had no choice but Hogwarts if he wanted to escape the Dursleys and ever since DD has manipulated him to suit the ends of his plan, whatever that is. At the end of OoP he starts expressing his choice - "Not me!" and DD steers him implacably back onto the rails of his fate, as seen by DD. He is more or less told that he doesn't have a choice, it's all foretold. But our Harry is getting stroppy; he's ready to start demanding what he wants. This is evident right from the start of the book until at the end he's almost ready to defy DD, his supposed mentor and protector. If he does make his own choice, what will it be? It will be what looks best for Harry and Harry probably thinks that means opting out. (see posts 86478-Choices and 86491-Re:Choices for more devious thinking of the Kneasy variety). And with a bit of luck this is where the blood and guts get spread across the page. Ah! the subtle satisfaction of an evisceration! The gentle pleasures of shrivelled eyeballs! Lovely! And my prime candidate is DD with a Weasley or two close up on the rails. Whatever. But I do expect possession to be a main theme in the coming two books; certainly Harry and possibly Tom. But what do I know? Kneasy From kirklander368 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 12 07:48:39 2004 From: kirklander368 at hotmail.com (burnoweatherhead) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:48:39 -0000 Subject: Basilisks and weasels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90787 Sawsan wrote: > I always thought that there is something about Ron and his peculiar Surname; however I don't think he will defeat Voldemort, only Harry can do that. However, there is something in CoS that I found peculiar. When we first visited the Burrow, I noticed that there were many frogs, frog spawn, and chickens running about, and I don't think I remember any roosters. It seems that it would be very easy for a basilisk to have been born there. > > I do have one thing that I don't get about your post though Burno, Ron's last name is Weasley, so are you suggesting that he can kill a basilisk because his name is similar to an animal that could kill one or are you suggesting that there might be something more to Ron? I do think that perhaps Ron were to become an animagus Weasel that could work, unless you are saying that JKR purposefully made Ron's last name Weasley to let us know that he can be deadly to a basilisk. > > Anyhow, though I do not agree with you about Ron defeating Lord Thingy, perhaps if Kneasy turns out right about there being a second (or more) basilisk(s), then Ron will play a big part in that. >>>> Thank you for your comments. I think I probably mis-stated myself when I put about Ron being the one to defeat LV. I believe that a) there will be another basilisk (which might be Regulus if the first one wasn't) and Ron will defeat it; b) JKR specifically chose Weasley as the name so that he could do this, so even if he doesn't literally turn into a weasel, he will be the one who will bring about or engineer LV's death. c) (as in the Knight2King theory)he will sacrifice himself in doing so, like the fabled weasel, (perhaps just surviving by application of rue), in order to allow Harry to strike 'the final blow'. I'm still uncertain whether Harry is the one, or whether Neville will turn out to be marked, but basically Harry will do the final deed but only by Ron's (or any other Weasley for that matter) crucial intervention/provocation of LV. Sans Weasley, it won't happen. "burnoweatherhead" From lphoenix69 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 12 12:11:16 2004 From: lphoenix69 at hotmail.com (Lucy Phoenix) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:11:16 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90788 Kneasy: > > > I bet he's got at least one. What do y'all think Snape's Patronus will look like, if he can make one? Lucy From lovelymelody at oreka.com Thu Feb 12 12:29:22 2004 From: lovelymelody at oreka.com (vesper_vane) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:29:22 -0000 Subject: ship predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90789 I remember reading in a forum someone making an alusion to an interview where JKR was saying that Harry would end with a minor character, someone who was there from the first book. Did she really say that? Because I've never heard about it since. I'd like to know if someone heard about that too, or if it's just a rumor. Vesper-- From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Feb 12 12:44:08 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:44:08 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90790 Amanda wrote: I submit that Snape probably cannot perform Expecto Patronus. It's not that I doubt his power or will--but I doubt he has sufficiently happy memories. Potioncat: Doesn't anyone think that the memory of Dumbledore agreeing to help him escape from the Dark Lord would be a happy one? OR that the ability to say with conviction, "Dumbledore trusts me." would be a happy enough thought to bring up a patronus? Potioncat From TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com Thu Feb 12 15:31:36 2004 From: TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com (TrixieCookie2326 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:31:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Hermione learning to be an animagus ? Message-ID: <0EF2022A.237C11CC.FD754928@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90791 Another thought - do you think its possible to transform animagically into a magical beast like a demiguise? Could that be Dumbledore's secret of invisibility? I definitely think Dumbledore is either transfiguring himself to be a demiguise or he has the ability to make himself invisible. He always seems to appear out of nowhere whenever things happen. He also seems to know everything that happens within Hogwarts. So either the portraits tell him everything that they see or he can be invisible. TrixieCookie2326 From elihufalk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 15:48:29 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:48:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040212154829.92114.qmail@web21405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90792 Kathy King wrote: > I've recently been thinking a lot about Luna. I haven't heard many negative thoughts on her, only 'ship type issues. My question is could she be on Voldemort?s side? Maybe daddy is V?s supporter? >>> It seems to me that Luna is just wierd. Look what the atticles in the Quibbler are like (OP - the chapter called Luna Lovegood) Elihu Falk From pulpficlet at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 16:03:35 2004 From: pulpficlet at yahoo.com (pulpficlet) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:03:35 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: <009101c3f04c$252888a0$de5aaacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90793 Amanda wrote: >I submit that Snape probably cannot perform Expecto >Patronus. It's not that I doubt his power or will--but I >doubt he has sufficiently happy memories. I don't think it makes sense to think Snape has no happy memories. *Everyone* has at least one happy memory. Also, I think it would undermine Snape's believability as a character for JKR to say he has no happy memories whatever. Canon doesn't require the happy memory to be a tremendously significant, life- altering event, or even one that would make most people happy. It just has to be happy enough to conjure the charm. Not only that, it seems that experience in conjuring a patronus means that later attempts can be premised on less happy memories. Harry need only think of Ron and Hermione to conjure a patronus in OotP. In PoA, however, he had to think of two instances in which he was allowed to leave the Dursleys. Paula From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Feb 12 19:45:25 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:45:25 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lucy Phoenix" wrote: > Kneasy: > > > > I bet he's got at least one. > > What do y'all think Snape's Patronus will look like, if he can make > one? A wolverine. Vicious, effective, a loner, but not a coward. And very definitely not something to mess with. Kneasy From kreneeb at hotmail.com Thu Feb 12 18:17:00 2004 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:17:00 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90795 While we are on the subject of Susan Bones, here is an interesting fact...Susan is short for Susanna which comes from the word Sousanna, the Greek form of the Hebrew name Shoshannah which was derived from the Hebrew word shushan which means... LILY Kitten... who has a lot of time on her hands From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Thu Feb 12 18:49:19 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:49:19 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90796 I have been re-reading PoA and a new thought occurred to me. DD performed the Fidelius Charm right? Why wouldn't he testify to clear Black's name? DD presumably would know who the secret keeper is, because it is necessary to the Charm to have a secret keeper. If DD can clear Snape's name by testifying why can he not clear Sirius' name? DD should have testified as soon as Sirius was caught. Why did he not? There may have been the problem of all the people Peter killed, but Sirius could have explained about MWPP's transformations. Surely a life sentence in Azkaban would have been more than enough reason to expose his illegal transformations and his friends. Sorry if this has been discussed before, if so then someone please tell me how to find the previous conversation. Thanks John From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Thu Feb 12 20:09:43 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:09:43 -0600 Subject: HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Patronus Message-ID: <20040212200943.YYQY26012.out010.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90797 {Kneasy} A wolverine. Vicious, effective, a loner, but not a coward. And very definitely not something to mess with. {Anne} Good choice! I can almost see that...lol... Now for my own two centaurs... I went back and thought about it, and decided I really am mistaken in thinking Snape can't use a Patronus after everything everyone else has pointed out in favor of it. (Although I agree that I don't think the Death of James, or even Sirius for that matter, would count as 'happy' memories for Snape...) So in light of that... A friend and I are doing a sort of long, invovled fanfic thing that will probably never see the light of day (we're doing it more to entertain ourselves than anything), and it revolves around Snape and what happens after Harry and Voldie have it out. We have him with a Vulture Patronis--symbol of ressurection, I think, with the Egyptians...(not to mention a very successful scavanger and a proud raptor in its own right. Got to learn about them and meet a few through a raptor rehab program that would do shows at the Renfaire where I worked. Very cool birds--a lot more to them than their usual unsavory reputation...). Of course, we also have him as an animagi (hey, it's fanfic...it's okay to break the rules a little in regards to how many animagi there are...lol), and for that we chose a Raven--another symbol of night, darkness, and in some cultures ressurection (not to mention a sort of spiritual alchemy). *shrugs* Seemed to make sense, especially if you're trying to avoid his 'batty' stereo-typing amoungst fans ^^; **Oh, and we're discussing his possible vamnpiric nature...we sort of figure that Wizards have sidhe bllod in them--that's where their magic abilities come from--and there is a type of Unseelie Sidhe known as the Leanshidhe (Irish), who feeds off of the dreams and spirits of the poets she inspires (as well as their blood...). So. there you go...a living decendant of a living vamp...^^; Anne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Thu Feb 12 20:37:35 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:37:35 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90798 Jim wrote: > > Reason to Fight Movie Contamination #6: > > The girl who played Susan Bones is Chris Columbus's daughter. Sawsan here: UMM, yes Jim, we've established that. We were also saying how she has been mentioned in the book a few times and later, her Auntie Amelia Bones (who is part of the Wizengamot and was at Harry's hearing in OotP) told Susan that Harry could produce a corpreal Patronus, which excited her and she joined the DA. We were speculating that perhaps she will get a bigger role in later books, now that she has joined the DA and now that Voldie's return has been proven. Perhaps Auntie Amelia will start to spend more time around the Weasleys and will join the Order. Also, perhaps Susan will grow closer to Harry, partly because of her membership in the DA, and partly because she has a sad past similar to Harry's. (She has lost many family members the the Death Eaters). Sawsan. From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Feb 12 20:43:43 2004 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:43:43 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90799 John asked: > I have been re-reading PoA and a new thought occurred to me. DD > performed the Fidelius Charm right? Why wouldn't he testify to > clear Black's name? DD presumably would know who the secret keeper > is, because it is necessary to the Charm to have a secret keeper. > If DD can clear Snape's name by testifying why can he not clear > Sirius' name? DD should have testified as soon as Sirius was caught. > Why did he not? There may have been the problem of all the people > Peter killed, but Sirius could have explained about MWPP's > transformations. Surely a life sentence in Azkaban would have been > more than enough reason to expose his illegal transformations and > his friends. Sorry if this has been discussed before, if so then > someone please tell me how to find the previous conversation. Dumbledore suggested the use of the Fidelius charm, but I don't believe he was the one to actually cast it. I've always assumed that Lily and James cast it themselves. It's stated several times that only Lily, James, Sirius, and Peter knew that Peter was the Secret Keeper, so if a third party was needed to cast the spell, I assume Sirius would have been the one to do so. The Potters told Dumbledore that they were going to use Sirius as their Secret Keeper, and they never told him of the later switch. Therefore, he had no way of knowing that Sirius was innocent. -Corinth From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Thu Feb 12 20:49:48 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:49:48 -0000 Subject: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: <536187393.20040212103938@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90800 Dave wrote: > Another question occurs to me: Assuming the theories that Sirius is > gay are correct, is he still gay as a dog, or might he have mated with > a bitch (a canine one, not Umbridge)? Sawsan now: Ok that was good! I think as a dog he might have gone either way, considering he was in prison for such a long while as well. One of those things that make you go hmmmm. Dave: > > Not half so mind-boggling as if the *male* is the giant! Sawsan: Ummm, honestly Dave, I think it would be more difficult for a human man to mate with a Giantess, unless, as I stated earlier, he uses engorgement charms or something. I mean think of how difficult it would be seriously. I don't want to get to explicite, but come on. How the heck is he gonna impregnate her. I just can't see it. As for the difficulty of a human woman mating a Giant, well, I am sure that some women will not mind it all, in fact I think they go looking for the most giant giants of all. I will leave it at that. Sawsan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 21:13:36 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:13:36 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90801 Sawsan wrote: > > UMM, yes Jim, we've established that. We were also saying how she has > been mentioned in the book a few times and later, her Auntie Amelia > Bones (who is part of the Wizengamot and was at Harry's hearing in > OotP) told Susan that Harry could produce a corpreal Patronus, which > excited her and she joined the DA. We were speculating that perhaps > she will get a bigger role in later books, now that she has joined the > DA and now that Voldie's return has been proven. Perhaps Auntie Amelia > will start to spend more time around the Weasleys and will join the > Order. Also, perhaps Susan will grow closer to Harry, partly because > of her membership in the DA, and partly because she has a sad past > similar to Harry's. (She has lost many family members the the Death > Eaters). I think that not only Susan but most of the non-Gryffindor DA members will be more developed in the next two books in keeping with the unity of the Houses theme. Harry has been very isolated until now, not even knowing the names of Hufflepuffs he has Herbology with (Susan, for example) or Slytherins he has not only Potions but Care of Magical Creatures with (Theodore Nott, for example). He had slightly more excuse for not knowing some of the Ravenclaws who showed up for the first meeting at the Hog's Head--he doesn't seem to have any classes with (why the heck not?), so if they're not on the Quidditch team, he doesn't know who they are. I think all that is going to change in the next two books. (I also think he'll get to know at least one Slytherin. I'm betting on Theo Nott. Even though his father's a Death Eater, he's only shown with Draco and his cronies once (when the article revealing the Death Eaters' names appears in the Quibbler). But I think he's also the Slytherin who saw the Thestral and that JKR has some good reason for revealing his name in OoP. Getting back to Susan Bones. Who are the other students (aside from Neville, who has lost his grandfather as well as, to all intents and purposes, his parents)) who have lost family members to the Death Eaters? Is there a Prewett among the students? And I seem to remember a Ravenclaw girl named Fawcett (first name unknown) mentioned several times? Has she lost a family member? We've seen Harry start to come out of his isolation, with Neville, Ginny, and Luna participating in his most recent (and disastrous) confrontation with Voldemort and the DEs. I think that next time, the group will be still bigger. In Book 7 it will have to be a much larger group--the DA at the least and maybe the whole school (minus a few Slytherins fighting on the wrong side of the battle). So, yes, I think we'll see more of Susan in Book 6, but she'll just be one of many. (Maybe we'll even get to know and love Zacharias Smith!) Carol From sydenmill at msn.com Thu Feb 12 21:39:08 2004 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:39:08 -0000 Subject: Perkins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90802 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90803 "theultimatesen" wrote: I had to respond to this one. I was in the same boat. I was *whisper* anti potter *hanging head in shame* for so long. A couple of friends of ours brought over SS and tried to get us to watch it. I watched a bit of it then fell asleep. Took me several tries to get through it. I couldn't help but think how LONG it was. Then, one day I just watched the entire thing and my interest was REALLY sparked. I got all 4 books that night read them all and reread them. I had just finished book 4 for the first time when COS came out. You miss so much not reading all the books. I wouldn't go out of order either, but that's just me. Don't rely on the movies for your info alone. Granted, they did a good job, there's just so much they CANT get into that's really important. Plus there's a few really good laughs in them. Sen Who about died laughing when thinking of pigs in wigs. Fred Waldrop here; My story almost follows Sen's to the letter. I kcould not EVER see my self reading a childrens book, not at 38 years of age. I kept hearing how great they were and everything, and would pick one up, just to get rebuffed by the "for ages 9 - 12" thing. Then, when it came on TV (wouldn't pay to go to the movies, not to see a childrens movie), I finally broke down and watch it. And to my surprize, it was good. I went out and bought the first book, read it in one night (I couldn 't put it down). The next day I bought the next 3 books, and have read, and re- read them all over and over. I have become a such a Harry Potter fan that I wanted to know if was missing anything by not having the UK version, I bought a set of them, and have even bought a set on CD so I listen to them when I am not able to read. I would most highly recommend reading ALL FIVE in ORDER, because the movies, while good, do not do justice to the books. Example: in the movie you come to the conclution that Harry isn't treated grea, but not all that badly by the Dursleys, WRONG. You see Hermione knowing EVERYTHING, and never freezing, WRONG. You come away with the imprestion that Harry really did not do very much to get to the stone and save it, WRONG. And these are just a few, very few things that the movies got wrong. Fred ps. Not to mention they all but cut out the great humor (comic relief) of the twins. I thought it was absolutly side splitting funny in CoS how the twins would "pop up" and say things like "make way for the heir of Syltherin, really powerful wizard coming through", or try and ward off Harry with big cloves of garlic, all trying to prove how silly it was to say Harry was the heir of Syltherin. From nymphadora1 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 20:02:49 2004 From: nymphadora1 at yahoo.com (nymphadora1) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:02:49 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90804 John wrote: > I have been re-reading PoA and a new thought occurred to me. DD > performed the Fidelius Charm right? Why wouldn't he testify to > clear Black's name? On the question of DD testifying, I believe there was no trial at which he could testify. Barty Crouch put Sirius in Azkaban without a trial (GoF). Although now you mention it, it does seem odd for DD not to try and do something on Sirius's behalf. Maybe he did and we haven't been told about it yet. It seems that in the fervour over catching/killing death eaters, DD's evidence may not have been enough to keep Sirius out of prison - he was caught in the street with all those dead muggles and (apparently) what was left of Peter Petigrew. Hmmmmmm, why didn't they do Priori Incantatum to find out if he really did kill all those people? That would probably have been done at the trial. Nymph From SFischer at Hunter.COM Thu Feb 12 20:11:46 2004 From: SFischer at Hunter.COM (Fischer, Shari) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:11:46 -0600 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90805 Sawsan wrote: >There was a post a while back about Book vs. Perfume, which was about >how Ron gave Hermione a perfume for christmas and she thought it was >unusual, whereas she loved Harry's gift to her: a book. Many read this >perfume present as a girly type present that Ron seemed to think was >important to give Hermione, now that he has noticed her as a girl and >likes her. But when I read on, he didn't go all red in the ears as >usual or showed any sign of embarrassment when Hermione said his gift >was unusual. He just sort took it as a regular thanks and brushed it >off. When I read that paragraph, I imagined that maybe Ginny had 'helped' Ron pick that gift for Hermione, maybe as a way of bringing those two together. Ginny and Herminone have struck up a friendship, so it makes sense that they talk about boys, and know who the other would like to date. Plus, Hermione always rolls her eyes when Ron goes off on her relationship with Viktor Krum in a "You are SO blind" sort-of way. As if Ron can't see that she only went out with Krum out to make him jealous. Hopefully the 'unusual' aspect will be revealed later (i.e. will it help make a potion, have some special properties when used by itself, etc.) Maybe if Ron ever asks her out on a date or to a dance she will finally wear it and something will happen! I also see a big similarity in Hermione and Molly's personalities (smart, strong, caring, no-nonsense). I think most people are influenced in their choice of spouse by their parent's relationship, and Ron and Hermione are starting to mirror Arthur and Molly more and more as they get older. They seem to make a great team, both equally passionate about fighting Voldemort, and Ron is being raised to accept that Muggles (her parents) are equals to Wizarding-folk - as opposed to someone like Draco, who has been taught to be prejudiced against Muggles. Shari From flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com Thu Feb 12 22:12:27 2004 From: flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com (Diana Walter) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:12:27 -0000 Subject: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90806 > Dave wrote: > > Another question occurs to me: Assuming the theories that Sirius is > > gay are correct, is he still gay as a dog, or might he have mated with > > a bitch (a canine one, not Umbridge)? > > Sawsan now: > Ok that was good! I think as a dog he might have gone either way, > considering he was in prison for such a long while as well. One of > those things that make you go hmmmm. Wheee! Gay!Sirius! These posts got me thinking a bit about the effect Animagi and their animal forms have on each other. Harry compares Sirius' laugh to a bark on multiple occasions, and in GoF (lessee here...522 US paperback) notes that he's gnawing on his chicken leg in "a very doglike way". Now, somehow I doubt Sirius did that before he became an Animagus. More likely it got incorporated into his behavior over time as he got more experience being in his alternate form. So, anyway, you can debate the nature of homosexuality all you want, but whether it's behavioral, neurological, genetic, or whatever, it DOES exist in animals (a very interesting recent article on the subject can be found at http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/arts/07GAY.html). It also isn't unreasonable to suppose that any trait an Animagus' animal form has is fair game for being transferred to the human form. What I'm suggesting is that it wasn't necessarily Sirius who started out gay, but Snuffles. Then, of course, it would only be a matter of time. I suppose one might argue that, in the Pensieve scene (which is where a good amount of the canon support for Gay!Sirius came from originally, IIRC), WPP had been Animagi for less than a year, which just doesn't seem like enough to completely reverse a person's sexuality (assuming he had been straight to begin with). Point taken. But by then he did already have that barklike laugh. Also, it's not like he was out and flaming or anything--he was just paying more attention to boys than girls. Yes, I think I like this idea. --daw From shannayarbrough at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 21:06:42 2004 From: shannayarbrough at yahoo.com (Shanna Yarbrough) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:06:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: SHIP: R/H Shipping for fun In-Reply-To: <1076613753.3147.50260.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040212210642.23498.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90807 I've been reading the discussions of how Ron & Hermione fight, and fighting is bad, they'd never make it as marrieds, etc, but what I find very surprising is that no one is simply chalking it up to sexual tension. If you read it as two kids who are good friends and starting to feel more for one another -- and by all means, don't read it that way if you don't want to, this is all for fun -- think of the incredible awkwardness they must be feeling. And the hormones. And the thought of, "Oh no, what would we tell Harry?" And they're not adults, not at all sophisticated, even for teens, and they don't have any way to express their feelings other than groping/snogging (which maybe they are too shy/young to start yet) or simply turning the volume of their relationship up to 11. So they bicker more, exchange more looks, and try to figure out the right place/time to let their hands accidentally touch under a table somewhere... Ah, to be young! Of course, as I posted yesterday, I think R/H are ALREADY dating by the time we (er... by which I mean Harry) see them in OotP... But I'll admit that it seems strange to me to imagine a scenario in which R/H don't take a turn for the romantic. I just felt it to be a slowly and clearly developing plot line throughout the books, took it for granted, long before coming aboard the Internet bandwagon and learned that not everyone saw it that way. Anyhow, guess I'm not really a lurker anymore. Shanna From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 22:13:59 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:13:59 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: <20040212154829.92114.qmail@web21405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk wrote: > Kathy King wrote: > > I've recently been thinking a lot about Luna. I haven't heard many > negative thoughts on her, only 'ship type issues. > > My question is could she be on Voldemort's side? Maybe daddy is V's > supporter? >>> > > > It seems to me that Luna is just wierd. Look what the atticles in the Quibbler are like (OP - the chapter called Luna Lovegood) > > Elihu Falk Speaking of Luna and the Quibbler, any speculations about why she and Ginny read it upside down? I've wondered about coded messages, and being used the way the portraits are and possibly the chocolate frogs cards. Any other speculations? Julie From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 22:18:07 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:18:07 -0000 Subject: Choosing.....Who's taking the easy way out? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > They're all going to have to choose. Jo said it herself as well as > through Dumbledore's voice. We saw in OOP how Volderot strategizes. > The information about Sirius was crucial in getting Harry to the > MOM. So, he goes after people's weaknesses. He attacks the area in > the person's life that will affect them, or hurt them the most. >snips > I used to think that Ron would possibly betray Harry in the last > book because he's so insecure about money and acclaim. But, I have > more faith in him as the books advance. He saw just how big a > mistake Percy made when he sided against his parents and the order. > Hermione will never betray Harry or the Order. She just wouldn't, > she's got too much integrity. > > But, if they aren't likely to betray, then they're targets to be > used by volderot, just like Sirius. > > What about the Dursley's? I've always wondered if Petunia herself > had the power to invite Voldemort in, if she wanted.. > > Would the Dursley's betray Harry for the piles of Gold that LV would > offer them? Or, would the Durley's even merrit an offer? Whould they > just be killed, as LV must know how much anamosity exists between > the Dursley's and Harry. > > Who else? > > Hagrid? About as much chance of becoming a death eater as Minister > of Magic! > > Snape? I'm not even gonna touch that one...too greasy! > > McGonagall? She's still got secrets waiting to come out yet, not > enough info. > > The rest of the staff? The astronomy teacher's a suspect, as is her > class. But, I don't know about the rest of them.... > > The other students? Neville? I'd say not a chance in H**l! Neville > will prove himself. I have no doubts. > > The slytherins? Oh, who knows? > > Who else will be given a chance to choose? Who will be usefule to > LV? Who will not? Like you said, LV will attack that point of a person that is weakest, in Harry's case, his "saving people thing." Harry, for whatever reason (and I am not even going to touch the messiah- complex theories), has developed into the kind of person that would risk his own life to save the life of a loved one. LV knows this, and therefore must know that Harry's weak points are those that he cares about: Hermione, Ron, the other Weasleys, Hagrid and to some extent Neville, possibly even the Dursleys. I think you make another good point: these people would probably not actively betray Harry. Even Ron, who I suspected would be the traitor in the group, has surpassed any expectations of loyalty that even Harry had of him. What makes this issue fuzzy, however, is, as you say, the matter of choice and the fact that in the WW we know you don't always have one. That's right: the old Imperius curse. This brings up the fact that we must also worry about the vulnerability of those closest to THEM: Mr. Weasly's co-workers, Dr. and Dr. Granger, Olympe Maxime, Gran, Uncle Algie and Grawp. Imagine poor old Perkins being paid to put the Imperio on Arthur who then puts the Imperio on Ron who then leads Harry straight into LV's clutches! JKR's introduction of the Imperio has added some interesting ambiguity to the WW, and it will be interesting to see what else she does with it. Meri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 22:31:41 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:31:41 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nymphadora1" wrote: > John wrote: > > I have been re-reading PoA and a new thought occurred to me. DD > > performed the Fidelius Charm right? Why wouldn't he testify to > > clear Black's name? > > > On the question of DD testifying, I believe there was no trial > at which he could testify. Barty Crouch put Sirius in Azkaban > without a trial (GoF). Although now you mention it, it does seem > odd for DD not to try and do something on Sirius's behalf. Maybe > he did and we haven't been told about it yet. It seems that in > the fervour over catching/killing death eaters, DD's evidence > may not have been enough to keep Sirius out of prison - he was > caught in the street with all those dead muggles and (apparently) > what was left of Peter Petigrew. Hmmmmmm, why didn't they do Priori > Incantatum to find out if he really did kill all those people? > That would probably have been done at the trial. > Nymph Carol: I'm almost certain that Dumbledore testified in a hearing (there was no trial) that Sirius had been the Potter's Secret Keeper. He believed that Sirius was guilty, not only at that time but through most of PoA. Sorry I don't have the page reference at hand. I also wonder why they didn't use Priori Incantatem and I still can't figure out, despite numerous posts on the topic, how Sirius got his wand back. (He used Snape's in PoA.) Carol From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 23:06:53 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:06:53 -0000 Subject: DA dynamics (was Re: Susan Bones ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90811 wrote: > I think that not only Susan but most of the non-Gryffindor DA members > will be more developed in the next two books in keeping with the unity > So, yes, I think we'll see more of Susan in Book 6, but she'll just be > one of many. (Maybe we'll even get to know and love Zacharias Smith!) > > Carol Nery now: Yep, I agree, and for an additional reason: we won't have Gred and Forge in Hogwarts next book < sob>. That's half of the fun and half of the action gone. Somebody must fill this void, and I don't think the Creevy brothers are up to it. Mark my words, there will be a lot of interesting dynamics among the DA members in book 6. Neri From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Feb 12 23:25:54 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:25:54 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 The Sorting Hat's New Song Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90812 Chap. 11 ? The Sorting Hat's New Song Harry and Co. arrive at the Castle. Harry keeps looking for evidence of Hagrid's return, but the cabin sits in darkness. Hagrid is also not at the teachers' table in the Great Hall. Bit a new professor is soon noticed by Harry, Ron and Hermione. It is Dolores Umbridge. The first years enter and the Sorting Hat sings a song that is much different than its past efforts. The song alludes to the original unity of the four houses. But, then it sings of the growing strife among the Founders that led to the departure of Salazar Slytherin. That marked the end of unity among the houses. The Hat expresses some doubt about whether splitting the students into the houses is necessarily a good idea. It finishes by warning of dangers outside Hogwarts and advising that all must untie inside the school or it will crumble from within. Hermione wonders if the Hat has ever given warnings like this before. Nearly Headless Nick says that indeed it has, although later, in response to Ron's question, he says he doesn't know where or how the Hat gets its information. Dumbledore introduces Professors Grubby-Plank and Umbridge. Much to everyone's surprise, Umbridge interrupts Dumbledore to give a speech. She does not hold her audience's attention for very long. Perhaps that was a mistake, as she lets everyone know exactly what her agenda is ? "Progress for progress' sake must be discouraged," and "pruning where we find practices that ought to be prohibited." Only Hermione "hears" Umbridge's message. On the way to Gryffindor Tower, Harry is again the subject of pointing, whispering and staring. But what really gets to him is when Seamus tells him that his mother didn't want Seamus to return to school because she believed the nasty comments printed in The Daily Prophet about Dumbledore and Harry. Harry reacts angrily, but gets support from Ron, who is not above making prefect threats to Seamus. Neville also supports Harry in a reasoned, straight-forward manner. Harry goes to bed, wondering how much grief he'll have to take from his fellow students as the school year progresses. Questions: 1. How *does* the Hat get its information? Is it unbiased or is it a Headmaster mouthpiece? 2. Would there be greater unity within Hogwarts of the tradition of sorting students into houses was abolished? 3. What does the Hat do with a pureblood child who is brave, cunning and intelligent? Is this child a Hufflepuff? 4. Throughout the series the Hat has used one or two key words to illustrate the main trait of all the houses, except Hufflepuff. They have been described as loyal, just, patient and hard-working. In OoP, Hufflepuffs don't receive a single adjective. They are simply "the rest." Is JKR short-changing the Huffs, or will they end up being the glue that holds Hogwarts together? 5. Snape's presence in the Great Hall is not mentioned. Is Harry not paying attention to his least favorite teacher because Hagrid's continued absence and Umbridge's unexpected appearance are more worrisome? 6. Some of the teachers are clearly annoyed, perturbed or irritated at Umbridge. What do you suppose Snape's reaction was, whether it reflected in his expression or not? 7. Was Harry na?ve to think that he would not be the target of gossip and suspicion? 8. Was there anything Harry could have said to Seamus to ease his discomfort without making an already tense situation worse? NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67817 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85829 as well as "OotP Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database Marianne, who's stars are at least semi-aligned From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Feb 12 23:40:22 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:40:22 -0000 Subject: Choosing.....Who's taking the easy way out? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90813 Meri said: > Like you said, LV will attack that point of a person that is > weakest, in Harry's case, his "saving people thing." Harry, for > whatever reason (and I am not even going to touch the messiah- > complex theories), has developed into the kind of person that would > risk his own life to save the life of a loved one. LV knows this, > and therefore must know that Harry's weak points are those that he > cares about: Hermione, Ron, the other Weasleys, Hagrid and to some > extent Neville, possibly even the Dursleys. Marianne: I wonder though - Harry has been burned by this and burned deeply by Sirius' death. And, although he's willing to heap a ton of blame on Snape, I do believe that Harry was too emotional and too close to the event at the end of OoP to be ready to see how his own actions played into the events at the MoM. However, I predict that Harry will, at some point in Book 6, start coming to terms with this. And I think that will make him more likely to assess the risks and rewards of dashing off on one of his "saving people" missions. Meri again: I think you make another > good point: these people would probably not actively betray Harry. > Even Ron, who I suspected would be the traitor in the group, has > surpassed any expectations of loyalty that even Harry had of him. > What makes this issue fuzzy, however, is, as you say, the matter of > choice and the fact that in the WW we know you don't always have > one. That's right: the old Imperius curse. This brings up the fact > that we must also worry about the vulnerability of those closest to > THEM: Mr. Weasly's co-workers, Dr. and Dr. Granger, Olympe Maxime, > Gran, Uncle Algie and Grawp. Imagine poor old Perkins being paid to > put the Imperio on Arthur who then puts the Imperio on Ron who then > leads Harry straight into LV's clutches! JKR's introduction of the > Imperio has added some interesting ambiguity to the WW, and it will > be interesting to see what else she does with it. Marianne, again: I do hope that, if there is a betrayal, it is due to the active decision of the betrayer. I don't want one of the good guys to hand over important information to the DEs because of the Imperious Curse. I want to see an active betrayal. But, I also think that the betrayer might be someone who is maneuvered into an untenable position and then chooses the lesser of two evils. Let's say Molly gets word that something horrible will happen to Percy, and further, that she can prevent it if she simply gives person X (a disguised DE) a little bit of information concerning the whereabouts of one of the Order members, or which person in a certain MoM Dept. works in the Order, or something that, on the surface, doesn't look particularly dangerous. Well, does she spill those few beans and save her errant son from harm? Or does she potentially sacrifice him for what may be no good reason? I'm not saying I think Molly will be a betrayer - I'm just using her family to prove a point. Just as Vmort can target Harry's weakness with regards to the people he considers family, so can others be targeted. Marianne > Meri From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 12 23:43:34 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:43:34 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90814 snip> > The only one of the Marauders who was definitely married was James. > Sirius, being handsome and popular, could have gotten married, but > didn't. Lupin, maybe because of his "condition" did not want to get > married, but I am sure there are nice werewolf girls who would love > such a sweet man. Heck, I wouldn't put it past some girls to love to > see their husband unleash his umm animal instincts. Peter could have > found himself a girl, possibly Bertha Jorkins. > >snip > Sawsan I think the most likely reason that none of the marauders were married is that they were very young. Sirius and Peter were in their early 20's when they went their different directions, it would be pretty difficult to maintain a relationship in Azkaban or dead/living as a rat. As far as Bertha is concerned, IIRC she was older than the marauders and not a very popular person with anyone at school. We do not know either if there were women in their lives who either moved on when it all went "south" or who were killed before the Potters were. As for Lupin I have 2 thoughts on this. We know that Lupin has a home. Dumbledore sent Sirius there at the end of GOF. We do not know if anyone else lives there with him. There is also the whole Lupin=James Potter thing and if that is the case, he may have chosen never to remarry having lost the love of his life. Sue, who REALLY doesn't want to think about Wormtail's animal instincts! :P From frost_indri at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 00:20:14 2004 From: frost_indri at yahoo.com (frost_indri) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:20:14 -0000 Subject: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90815 > Dave: > > > > Not half so mind-boggling as if the *male* is the giant! > > Sawsan: > Ummm, honestly Dave, I think it would be more difficult for a human > man to mate with a Giantess, unless, as I stated earlier, he uses > engorgement charms or something. I mean think of how difficult it > would be seriously. I don't want to get to explicite, but come on. How > the heck is he gonna impregnate her. I just can't see it. > As for the difficulty of a human woman mating a Giant, well, I am sure > that some women will not mind it all, in fact I think they go looking > for the most giant giants of all. I will leave it at that. > Frost: Ermmm... Ok. Giant as in human giant, maybe... but face it. Womens bodies can only accoidat so much before there's bone to deal with, and the skin stops stretching. The thought of a mating between a giant man and a normal sized woman... I don't think she'd survive it. Think about it. For normal human guys, a matter of giant vs. normal vs. tiny is measured in one to two inches. With gints... I would suspect we are dealing with several inches, to possibly feet. And, considering JKR's descriptions (of Gawps hieght, and the fact that he's a small giant), I'm thinking we'd be dealing with a girth that was wider than a coke can. As for the giant female and normal sized male... well, fact is size doesn't matter as much as guys would like to think. as well as there have been cases of fertilization when the sperm was outside the intended depositing areal. Not that far outside, but still... those are some persistant buggers. It'd work, butI don't see the woman getting much out of it. I just honestly don't know how that would work. anyhow... ermmm... bye. Frost From belijako at online.no Fri Feb 13 00:32:45 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:32:45 -0000 Subject: DA dynamics (was Re: Susan Bones ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90816 Neri wrote: We won't have Gred and Forge in Hogwarts next book < sob>. That's half of the fun and half of the action gone. Somebody must fill this void, and I don't think the Creevy brothers are up to it. Berit replies: Well, who knows; maybe cheeky little (possibly green-eyed and red- headed) Mark Evans will warm up quite quickly to the idea of filling in the void after Fred and George... :-) I'm sure he'll make Dennis go along with some of the fun. Berit (who's written a fan-fic where none other than Mark and Dennis make a certain greasy-haired teacher the fool of the year...) http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From belijako at online.no Fri Feb 13 00:57:07 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:57:07 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90817 What do y'all think Snape's Patronus will look like, if he can make one? Kneasy wrote (#90794): A wolverine. Vicious, effective, a loner, but not a coward. And very definitely not something to mess with. Berit replies: I'm not sure. I just can't imagine Snape's patronus being anything that remotely resembles anything dog-like, considering how much he hates the "dog" Sirius and the "wolf" Lupin... :-) I don't see Snape as a "dog"-person (much to my dismay; I'm very much a dog-person myself; but love Snape anyway). If Snape's patronus takes on the shape of a carnivore, I rather think it's something cat-like, like a panther or a leopard. A "cat" patronus also goes better with Snape's personality, don't you think? The way he's prowling the corridors, always ready to pounce on any student that steps out of line (especially Harry :-). And he has the strength and the cunning of a big, malicious cat as well...(not big and heavy and imposing and openly boisterous and bragging like a lion; but sleek, secretive, unpredictable, powerful and solitary like a panther/leopard. Very definitely not something to mess with :-) Anne wrote (#90797): We have him with a Vulture Patronis--symbol of ressurection Of course, we also have him as an animagi; we chose a Raven--another symbol of night, darkness, and in some cultures ressurection. Berit replies: A vulture is not a bad suggestion! I can very well see Snape's patronus taking on that form. I can see it take on the form of a raven too; why not? Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From kcawte at ntlworld.com Fri Feb 13 09:13:49 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 01:13:49 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Patronus References: Message-ID: <004101c3f211$b12f9fc0$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 90818 > Kneasy wrote (#90794): > A wolverine. > Vicious, effective, a loner, but not a coward. > And very definitely not something to mess with. > > Berit replies: > > I'm not sure. I just can't imagine Snape's patronus being anything > that remotely resembles anything dog-like, considering how much he > hates the "dog" Sirius and the "wolf" Lupin... :-) K Plus since the wolverine isn't a British animal he probably doesn't have any real idea what one looks like and while a patronus is shaped subconsciously (apparently) rather than consciously I doubt it would be in a shape the caster wouldn't even recognize. K From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 01:52:43 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 01:52:43 -0000 Subject: DA dynamics (was Re: Susan Bones ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90819 > Neri wrote: > We won't have Gred and Forge in Hogwarts next book . That's > half of the fun and half of the action gone. Somebody must fill this > void, and I don't think the Creevy brothers are up to it. > > Berit replies: > > Well, who knows; maybe cheeky little (possibly green-eyed and red- > headed) Mark Evans will warm up quite quickly to the idea of filling > in the void after Fred and George... :-) I'm sure he'll make Dennis > go along with some of the fun. > > Berit (who's written a fan-fic where none other than Mark and Dennis > make a certain greasy-haired teacher the fool of the year...) > http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html Neri again: Hello Berit, I've read your fanfiction and it had some very good ideas in it. But Mark Evans will be (naturally!) sorted into Gryphindor, and we are already used to this kind of in-house action. DA dynamics promise multi-house action, of which we haven't had nearly enough in previous books. Just think about the potential: duals (simulated and real), accidents, dirty tricks, inter-house rivalry, just plain rivalry, bonds, ships, romantic triangles, romantic squares, and by the end of the year - a real battle to the death against the forces of Evil. Nope, I believe Mark Evans' love potions will only be the appetizer. Neri From grahadh at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 02:03:32 2004 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (grahadh) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 02:03:32 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions(scenarios) JKR interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" wrote: > Maybe someone can help me out with this. But I am fairly certain > that I read in an interview with JKR that some of the professors are > married and that it will come in to play later on. If anyone > remembers reading this also let me know. > > > JR It was in a comic relief chat March 2001 Q: Have any of the Hogwarts staff had spouses? A: yes, a few of them, but that information is sort of restricted--you'll find out why. I've always wondered where they live with their spouses or families. Do they all live at the school? in Hogsmead? do they commute/apparate to the front gates (as we know one cannot apparate onto the grounds)? I don't know, but it's fun to think about. -Dhyana From mervin180 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 02:23:52 2004 From: mervin180 at yahoo.com (mervin180) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 02:23:52 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 The Sorting Hat's New Song In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90821 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > 2. Would there be greater unity within Hogwarts of the tradition > of sorting students into houses was abolished? I'd like to say "yes," but my gut reaction, sadly, is "no." Teenagers form cliques even without houses present. I went to a high school of about 500, and my personal experience, it wasn't until we about 17 or 18 years old that the cliques more or less disbanded, and even then some people refused to socialize outside their peer group. If greater unity is to be brought to Hogwarts, I think it will be a concious choice of the students, not something that will just "naturally" happen if the Houses were abolished. > 4. Throughout the series the Hat has used one or two key words > to illustrate the main trait of all the houses, except Hufflepuff. > They have been described as loyal, just, patient and hard-working. > In OoP, Hufflepuffs don't receive a single adjective. They are > simply "the rest." Is JKR short-changing the Huffs, or will they end > up being the glue that holds Hogwarts together? Perhaps JKR does this to emphasize a quality in Hufflepuffs besides "hard working" "loyal" and "patient." Maybe this is done to illustrate Hufflepuffs as accepting, non-discriminatory, or open-minded. After all, after you weed out the "brave" the "cunning" and the "wise" you are still left with a very diverse group of students, all to be put together in the remaining house. Hufflepuffs might have the admirable ability to get along with just about anyone (not to say that this ability is not present in students of other houses, just to say that it may be more prominent in a hufflepuff). *** Angela P From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 13 02:37:56 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 02:37:56 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90822 Kitten wrote: > While we are on the subject of Susan Bones, here is an interesting > fact...Susan is short for Susanna which comes from the word > Sousanna, the Greek form of the Hebrew name Shoshannah which was > derived from the Hebrew word shushan which means... LILY Sawsan now: That is very interesting. I wonder if that was something JKR did on purpose or not. JKR typically does put time into the meaning of names, so I wouldn't put it past her to make it a clue. Thanks Kitten! Sawsan, who is desperately looking for the right girl for Harry, even though her two cents will never count From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 13 02:55:50 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 02:55:50 -0000 Subject: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90823 OK this post is really funny. I have a question though. It probably won't get answered until later on, or possibly (as usual) I missed something. Maybe the person becomes the animal, for lack of a better phrase, that is inside of them, or at least what would fit them best. For example, we have Peter Pettigrew, who was rat-like in looks and in personality. James, ummm, well maybe he was staglike. and Sirius just might have been such a dog that it suited him well to become one. Rita bugs everyone, so she became a beetle. She also acted like a bug when she found out info that she wasn't suppose to find out. This last one really makes me laugh when I think about how I am going to put this. McGonnagall is very strict and proper, but who knows if there really isn't a pussycat deep down inside. Sawsan who cant believe she said any of this. From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 13 03:06:11 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 03:06:11 -0000 Subject: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90824 Frost wrote: > Ermmm... Ok. Giant as in human giant, maybe... but face it. > Womens bodies can only accoidat so much before there's bone to deal > with, and the skin stops stretching. The thought of a mating > between a giant man and a normal sized woman... I don't think she'd > survive it. Think about it. For normal human guys, a matter of > giant vs. normal vs. tiny is measured in one to two inches. With > gints... I would suspect we are dealing with several inches, to > possibly feet. And, considering JKR's descriptions (of Gawps > hieght, and the fact that he's a small giant), I'm thinking we'd be > dealing with a girth that was wider than a coke can. > As for the giant female and normal sized male... well, fact is > size doesn't matter as much as guys would like to think. as well as > there have been cases of fertilization when the sperm was outside > the intended depositing areal. Not that far outside, but still... > those are some persistant buggers. It'd work, butI don't see the > woman getting much out of it. I just honestly don't know how that > would work. anyhow... ermmm... bye. Sawsan here: Ok this has gotten hmmm very technical. I know what you mean about the female human and the Giant giant. I was just basically saying that I could almost imagine that more than the human male and Giantess, which both are unimaginable to me. I do agree that the female human would be suicidal to mate with a Giant, unless there was some sort of charm or something that helped the matter somehow (there is always some sort of charm for just about anything, so I don't think I would put it past WW to have a porn shop somewhere in Knockturn Alley.) As for the male human and the Giantess, the phrase ummmmm jump right in comes to mind, which seems just as suicidal as the first scenario. Sawsan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 03:15:13 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 03:15:13 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 The Sorting Hat's New Song In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90825 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > > Questions: > 1. How *does* the Hat get its information? Is it unbiased or is > it a Headmaster mouthpiece? I can offer no other explanation on how Hat gets its information except the obvious one (it means it will definitely end up being the wrong one :o)) - it reads students' minds, or maybe to formulate it a little differently - reads into their magical essense. I don't think that Hat is biased in the sense that its a Headmaster mouthpiece. I don't buy the idea that Sorting is predecided and Harry for example was bound to end up in Gryffindor. I think that Hat is somehow magically forced to do what founders wanted, but at the same time it can shake off such spell. I mean if Hat can wonder whether dividing Students in the different Houses is wrong during the dark times, surely at some point in the future books it may decide to do something about it. > 2. Would there be greater unity within Hogwarts of the tradition > of sorting students into houses was abolished? Not necessarily, although I strongly suspect that JKR may go that road a the end. After all, Hat does sing that: "The Houses that, like pillars four, Had once held up our school.." So, I think that it is possible to achieve inner unity within Hogwarts without abolishment of the Houses Alla From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Feb 13 03:38:56 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 03:38:56 -0000 Subject: FILK: Thing! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90826 This is a filk which proves that even dementors are infinitely less terrifying when they can't sing in tune Thing! To the tune of Sing! From A Chorus Line Dedicated to Pixieberry Hear a MIDI at: http://members.tripod.com/~Point202/AChorusLine/song11.mid THE SCENE: Undisclosed. Enter FIRST and SECOND DEMENTOR. FIRST DEMENTOR See, I'm such an evil thing Harry finds me alarming `Cause I'm highly depress- SECOND DEMENTOR Sing! FIRST DEMENTOR You're in trouble when I- SECOND DEMENTOR -Glide! FIRST DEMENTOR For my horror's bona- SECOND DEMENTOR Fide! FIRST DEMENTOR I'm a terrifying- SECOND DEMENTOR -Thing! FIRST DEMENTOR When I worked at Azkaban I did a job that was quite- SECOND DEMENTOR -Vital! FIRST DEMENTOR Every woman and each man Under my guard turned sui- SECOND DEMENTOR: -cidal! FIRST DEMENTOR Now the prison we have- SECOND DEMENTOR -Quit! FIRST DEMENTOR We are chomping at the- SECOND DEMENTOR -Bit! FIRST DEMENTOR To devour all their - SECOND DEMENTOR Souls! FIRST DEMENTOR If you look upon our- SECOND DEMENTOR Face! FIRST DEMENTOR Human features there's no- SECOND DEMENTOR Trace! FIRST DEMENTOR There is just a gaping- SECOND DEMENTOR Hole! FIRST DEMENTOR Oh, I know our rattling breathing's really- SECOND DEMENTOR Frightening FIRST DEMENTOR For our hands are both rot- SECOND DEMENTOR -Ting! FIRST DEMENTOR Joys our foes are forgot- SECOND DEMENTOR -Ting! FIRST DEMENTOR For I'm such an vile SECOND DEMENTOR -Thing! We're blind geists- FIRST DEMENTOR We're blind geists- We don't do that vision-thing! SECOND DEMENTOR Must remember this! Strangle spells, strangle spells FIRST DEMENTOR Strangle spells, strangle spells With Voldy we're aligned! SECOND DEMENTOR Kiss still a kiss! FIRST DEMENTOR Because we're 12 feet high We're sure to over- SECOND DEMENTOR Power FIRST DEMENTOR And though our foes cry I can force them all to cower But, I'm stealthy as a- SECOND DEMENTOR -Cat! FIRST DEMENTOR Though I'm blinder than a- SECOND DEMENTOR -Bat! FIRST DEMENTOR Had a Magus on my- SECOND DEMENTOR -Ward! FIRST DEMENTOR When changing to a ca- SECOND DEMENTOR -Nine! FIRST DEMENTOR We could never make him- SECOND DEMENTOR -Whine! FIRST DEMENTOR He was only very - SECOND DEMENTOR -Bored! FIRST DEMENTOR But when Lupin came And taught Harry to- CHORUS OF PATRONI (off-stage) -Patronum- FIRST DEMENTOR It is so embaras- SECOND DEMENTOR -Sing! FIRST DEMENTOR It is so embitter- SECOND DEMENTOR -Ring! FIRST DEMENTOR It is so empoison- SECOND DEMENTOR -Ning! FIRST DEMENTOR When we're wrong empirical SECOND DEMENTOR -Ly! FIRST DEMENTOR Though I am an evil- SECOND DEMENTOR -Thing! FIRST DEMENTOR I could never really- SECOND DEMENTOR -Sting! FIRST DEMENTOR What I couldn't do was- CHORUS OF PATRONI Ex pec to Pa tro num and so Ex pec to Pa tro num and so Take! FIRST & SECOND DEMENTOR Take! CHORUS OF PATRONI Take! FIRST & SECOND DEMENTOR Take! CHORUS OF PATRONI Wing, wing, wing Wing, wing, wing- FIRST & SECOND DEMENTOR TAKE! ALL: WING! (Exit CHORUS OF DEMENTORS pursued by CHORUS OF PATRONI) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 03:41:18 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 03:41:18 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 The Sorting Hat's New Song In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > > Chap. 11 ? The Sorting Hat's New Song > The first years enter and the Sorting Hat sings a song that is much > different than its past efforts. The song alludes to the original > unity of the four houses. [...] It finishes by warning of dangers outside > Hogwarts and advising that all must untie inside the school or it > will crumble from within. Interesting that both the Sorting Hat, and Dumbledore at the end of GoF, emphasise the importance of unity in the face of danger and Voldemort's talent for discord and division. On the other hand, by the end of OoP Harry feels like the "marked man," the One alone on whom the fate of the Wizarding World, at least, rests. I have to wonder how hard it will be, not only to unite the people of Hogwarts, but also to convince Harry that he should not be going it alone. It seems that he will have to be a part of a united front, even if he is the vanguard. > Questions: > 1. How *does* the Hat get its information? Is it unbiased or is > it a Headmaster mouthpiece? My only strong feeling here is that it is not the Headmaster's mouthpiece. I imagine NHN would recognise if it took on the personallities of individual headmasters, but the way he talks about it after the song it seems to keep its own characteristics. > > 3. What does the Hat do with a pureblood child who is brave, > cunning and intelligent? Is this child a Hufflepuff? It's hard to say. I'm wondering if we'll ever really be told how the Sorting Hat sorts. Cedric Diggory was certainly brave, noble and intelligent, and he may well have been cunning, too, and he was a Hufflepuff. I'm thinking there's more to this that we haven't found out yet. > 6. Some of the teachers are clearly annoyed, perturbed or > irritated at Umbridge. What do you suppose Snape's reaction was, > whether it reflected in his expression or not? I'll bet Snape knew exactly why Umbridge was there, and I believe he would have worn his usual closed, but sour expression. > > 7. Was Harry na?ve to think that he would not be the target of > gossip and suspicion? Well, that's Harry. He was naive enough not to read beyond the front page of the Daily Prophet all summer, so that's why he was unprepared. > > 8. Was there anything Harry could have said to Seamus to ease > his discomfort without making an already tense situation worse? The hard part about that is I bet Seamus was feeling a bit guilty or disloyal to Harry at the same time he was showing loyalty to his Mum. What could Harry do to help? All Harry said at first was that he had seen Voldemort, and Seamus asked if he was calling his Mum a liar. What's Harry supposed to do about that? Harry could really only wait for Seamus to come around. Annemehr From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 04:26:50 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 04:26:50 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 The Sorting Hat's New Song In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90828 "kiricat2001" wrote: > Chap. 11 ? The Sorting Hat's New Song > 1. How *does* the Hat get its information? Is it unbiased or is > it a Headmaster mouthpiece? Carol: I was just thinking about the Sorting Hat and the challenge of making it into a character with a distinctive personality. I don't think that the Sorting Hat is the headmaster's mouthpiece, even though it agrees with Dumbledore on the need for unity, since according to Sir Nick it's made the same statement before, presumably pre-Dumbledore. Also, all four founders put their thoughts and preferences into it, so even though it was Godric Gryffindor's to begin with, I don't think it has a pro-Gryffindor or pro-Dumbledore bias. (If it did, it would never have suggested that Haary would do well in Slytherin.) I think it really reads the children's thoughts (some sort of Legilmency spell) and puts them where it thinks they'll fit. Sometimes, as with Seamus and Neville, it takes a long time to decide, and not all of the students are going to help it out by thinking "Not Slytherin!" as Harry did. Some of them will have no idea where they want to go. Hermione says that it considered putting her in Ravenclaw. That must have been a tough call. It's possible that the Sorting Hat makes mistakes, even though it says in Book One that it's never yet been wrong. But I do think it has its own mind and makes its own decisions without being told in advance which house to put the students in. Why have a Sorting Hat at all if it's only the headmaster's mouthpiece? > 3. What does the Hat do with a pureblood child who is brave, > cunning and intelligent? Is this child a Hufflepuff? Carol: Actually, cunning is a type of intelligence and both cunning and pure blood are Slytherin traits, so we'd have a brave Slytherin. But maybe you meant "loyal" instead of "cunning," in which case, he or she probably would be a Hufflepuff if all the traits were in balance. (Cedric Diggory, anyone?) But if the child's last name was near the end of the alphabet and one house was running a bit shorter on students than the rest, I can see the hat putting him or her in Gryffindor or Ravenclaw. Not Slytherin, though, if the only criterion were pure blood. There would have to be either cunning or ambition as well. > > 5. Snape's presence in the Great Hall is not mentioned. Is Harry > not paying attention to his least favorite teacher because Hagrid's > continued absence and Umbridge's unexpected appearance are more > worrisome? > and > 6. Some of the teachers are clearly annoyed, perturbed or > irritated at Umbridge. What do you suppose Snape's reaction was, > whether it reflected in his expression or not? Carol: I'll answer the Snape questions together. I think that, yes, Harry was distracted by Umbridge's presence and Hagrid's absence so he didn't pay much attention to Snape, but I also think he wouldn't have noticed anything unusual in Snape's expression. He'd have been looking at Umbridge with great distaste, but Harry would have attributed that to Snape's unpleasant personality and his usual aversion to the DADA teacher. (JKR, on the other hand, may have been deliberately keeping us from seeing just how much Snape loathed Umbridge at this early point in the book. We certainly see it later. ("Don't tell anyone what you're doing, Potter. Least of all, Delores Umbridge.") Carol From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Feb 13 04:28:36 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 04:28:36 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 The Sorting Hat's New Song In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90829 "kiricat2001" posed these questions: > 1. How *does* the Hat get its information? Is it unbiased or is > it a Headmaster mouthpiece? I think the fact that the Hat has long been around weel before Dumbledore precludes it from being his 'mouthpiece'. I'm thinking there is a certain sentinece to it. It's got knowledge from way back in the Founders' days and I think it continues to soak up a bit of all that goes on about it. And for what it's worth, I think we'll see another primetime appearance from the Hat like in CoS. It, like the Sword of G-dor, are Godric's relics and I think they have a role to play in coutering the Heir of Slytherin. Again. > 3. What does the Hat do with a pureblood child who is brave, > cunning and intelligent? Is this child a Hufflepuff? Er, you mean like Hermione? She went into Gryffindor. I'd say it comes down to which of these traits they themselves hold most prized. What, among these traits, would they aspire to be? I think when the Sorting Hat told Harry he could be great, it was tempting Harry with that greatness to test if to what extent the ambition of Slytherin was in him. And I do think Harry could have 'done well in Slytherin'....*if* Harry was tempted by 'being great'. > 4. Throughout the series the Hat has used one or two key words > to illustrate the main trait of all the houses, except Hufflepuff. > They have been described as loyal, just, patient and hard-working. > In OoP, Hufflepuffs don't receive a single adjective. They are > simply "the rest." Is JKR short-changing the Huffs, or will they end > up being the glue that holds Hogwarts together? I think the OotP song gave us at least a new descriptive to be implied-- TOLERANT. They're not exclusive in choosing who is worthy. This, I definately feel, is a major plot thread to be played out. (From muggles/ muggleborns/werewolves/giants/Slytherins...etc.) > 6. Some of the teachers are clearly annoyed, perturbed or > irritated at Umbridge. What do you suppose Snape's reaction was, > whether it reflected in his expression or not? Sneering, no doubt. > 8. Was there anything Harry could have said to Seamus to ease > his discomfort without making an already tense situation worse? Definitely. Seamus was not rude at all (he asked for Harry's side of what happened at the end of GoF hesitantly) until Harry snapped at him and Seamus reacted to Harry's comment about his mother. I think Seamus was obviously not set against Harry before this--only wary. He asked a very valid question. Unfortunately, Harry was a bit tetchy and yeah, he should have been expecting to have to explain this to people. I think Hermione or Ron (Herm more so because she's the one who sees more clearly how people are thinking) could have warned Harry and gotten him used to the idea that he'd be asked about this before they returned to Hogwarts. Just my thoughts.... Arya From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Feb 13 04:40:17 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 04:40:17 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 The Sorting Hat's New Song In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90830 I answered (stupidly): >>3. What does the Hat do with a pureblood child who is brave, cunning and >>intelligent? Is this child a Hufflepuff? Er, you mean like Hermione? She went into Gryffindor. ----------- IObvioulsy, I'm an idiot. She's soooo not a pureblood. Duh. I *meant* to bring up Sirius. I just had a brain lapse from brain to keyboard. Er...yeah. And now that I think on it more...even James seems to fit this bill. Percy, too (He's brave in a way because he rebelled against his family, cunning because he's only two years out of school and shadowing the Minister, ane intelligent because we all heard how he got 12 OWLs, which was superb. He just doesn't seem very wise....) Well, perhaps I am off the mark a bit because you asked about one who is "intelligent". But really---Ravenclaws are those 'of wit and lerning'. But I still think all three of these apply. James and Sirius (and also Fred and George) just perhaps set their minds and learning wits to things they thought were most helpful. (Becoming an animagus...inventing pranks....) Enough from me... Arya From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 04:40:44 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 04:40:44 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90831 > Berit: > I'm not sure. I just can't imagine Snape's patronus being anything > that remotely resembles anything dog-like, considering how much he > hates the "dog" Sirius and the "wolf" Lupin... :-) I don't see Snape > as a "dog"-person (much to my dismay; I'm very much a dog-person > myself; but love Snape anyway). If Snape's patronus takes on the > shape of a carnivore, I rather think it's something cat-like, like a > panther or a leopard. A "cat" patronus also goes better with Snape's > personality, don't you think? The way he's prowling the corridors, > always ready to pounce on any student that steps out of line > (especially Harry :-). And he has the strength and the cunning of a > big, malicious cat as well...(not big and heavy and imposing and > openly boisterous and bragging like a lion; but sleek, secretive, > unpredictable, powerful and solitary like a panther/leopard. Very > definitely not something to mess with :-) > > > Anne wrote (#90797): > We have him with a Vulture Patronis--symbol of ressurection > Carol: I love the panther patronus idea, especially if it's a black panther (even though it would show up as silver)--It would fit his tendency to dress in black. Prowling, strong, cunning, unpredictable--yes, very good! As for the vulture, resurrection symbol or not, it still suggests ugly carrion eater to me. Let it be Peter Pettigrew's Patronus. (Umbridge's has to be a toad.) OTOH, is Snape's patronus did turn out to be a vulture, it would give new meaning to boggart!Snape wearing Neville's gran's hat! Carol, who sees some validity to the snake and wolverine suggestions, but vastly prefers the black panther From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 04:51:25 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 04:51:25 -0000 Subject: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90832 "sawsan_issa" wrote: Maybe the person becomes the animal, for lack of a better phrase, that is inside of them, or at least what would fit them best. For example, we have Peter Pettigrew, who was rat-like in looks and in personality. James, ummm, well maybe he was staglike. and Sirius just might have been such a dog that it suited him well to become one. Rita bugs everyone, so she became a beetle. She also acted like a bug when she found out info that she wasn't suppose to find out. Actually, I think you're right. But notice that two of the names already give away (or predict) what the animagus form will be: Skeeter = mosquito (okay; she becomes a beetle, but she's still a bug) and Sirius = the Dog Star. Wonder if he already had that bark-like laugh before he learned to transform himself. Maybe the laugh actually gave him (or James) the idea. (Yes, I know their motive was to keep company with werewolf/Remus, but the laugh may have suggested the means.) But McGonagall as a cat? Maybe she just likes cats and is convential enough to use the traditional witch's familiar to transform into. Carol From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 13 05:11:54 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:11:54 -0000 Subject: Animagi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90833 Carol wrote: > Actually, I think you're right. But notice that two of the names > already give away (or predict) what the animagus form will be: Skeeter > = mosquito (okay; she becomes a beetle, but she's still a bug) and > Sirius = the Dog Star. Wonder if he already had that bark-like laugh > before he learned to transform himself. Maybe the laugh actually gave > him (or James) the idea. (Yes, I know their motive was to keep company > with werewolf/Remus, but the laugh may have suggested the means.) > > But McGonagall as a cat? Maybe she just likes cats and is convential > enough to use the traditional witch's familiar to transform into. Sawsan here: Perhaps there is something about cats that is similar to McGonagall as well. I am not sure. I was just playing around with these posts, though I believe that there is something particular about the wizard/witch that decides what animal they would change into. The only similarity I see about McGonagall and cats is that she seems to have 9 lives as well when I think about how she was struck in the heart by 4 stunners and came back to school barely limping. I don't understand that one as well, but I don't think its about preference. If that were so then I would expect Peter to have turned into something larger than a rat, considering his friends were all large animals. If anything, I would think McGonagall should turn into an owl, as they are symbols of being wise, and are very important to the series. Sawsan From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 13 05:15:03 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:15:03 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90834 Julie wrote: > Speaking of Luna and the Quibbler, any speculations about why she > and Ginny read it upside down? I've wondered about coded messages, > and being used the way the portraits are and possibly the chocolate > frogs cards. Any other speculations? Sawsan here: I remember at the beginning when Harry first met Luna in the Hogwarts Express, she was reading the Quibbler upside down. He later got a hold of it and realized why. There was some article about the runes I think and it said if you read it upside down you could turn your enemies ears into Quamquats(sp?) or something. Sawsan From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 13 05:21:05 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:21:05 -0000 Subject: Ginny Weasley and Dean Thomas??? NOT SHIPPING JUST ASKING Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90835 Hi, its me again, Sawsan. At the end of OotP, Ron tells Ginny to make a better choice than Michael Corner (who was dating Ginny but at the end of OotP he's with Cho.) She said that she had and it was Dean Thomas. My question is was that her Weasley sarcasm (she said that after Ron indicated he wanted her to choose Harry) or do you think she was really dating Dean? I know that would be my reaction if my older brother was trying to fix me up with someone. My next question is: if she did choose Dean, do you think that they were dating? (they were very good about hiding it if they were, since we did not see them together throughout the series) or is it a crush? Thanks, Sawsan From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 13 05:23:32 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:23:32 -0000 Subject: Perkins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > I don't think that would be a problem, since Harry doesn't seem to spend a lot of time > there. When Mrs Figg had a broken leg on Dudley's birthday in PS, Harry thinks to > himself that he won't have to look at her cat pictures for a whole year. (It could be that > I'm missing some other reference to Figgy, of course, but I don't have the time to look > through all the books right now.) > > Eva. I can't check it right now - my daughter took the book to read (how dare she?!) - but my impression is that he went whenever the Dursleys went out because they didn't want to leave him alone in the house. Why would going to the zoo on Dudley's birthday be any different from the rest of the year? Ravenclaw Bookworm From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 05:36:45 2004 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:36:45 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90837 Carol wrote: > I'm almost certain that Dumbledore testified in a hearing (there was no trial) that Sirius had been the Potter's Secret Keeper. He believed that Sirius was guilty, not only at that time but through most of PoA. > Sorry I don't have the page reference at hand.< KathyK can help with that: It's PoA, Ch 21, "Hermione's Secret" US pg 392: "I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret-Keeper." Dumbledore testified, but not necessarily at a hearing. Carol: >I also wonder why they didn't use Priori Incantatem< KathyK: Maybe they did. But with the damning evidence of a street full of witnesses and Dumbledore's confirmation that Sirius was Secret- Keeper, I imagine it would have been very easy to ignore a little thing like what Prior Incantato would have revealed. Or it's quite possible they never bothered with the spell because Sirius appeared so guilty. Besides, it's not like he had a trial or anything. When and where did Dumbledore give this evidence? We don't know. He could have just told the Minister or Crouch what he knew in a conversation or it could have been some sort of hearing. Either way, Crouch didn't give Sirius a chance to defend himself, and the only people who could have helped him died because of him. I'll bet Sirius didn't even try to explain what happened, he was so guilty for what he'd done. KathyK, obsessed with the whole Fidelius business From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 13 05:38:12 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:38:12 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > John wrote: > > > I have been re-reading PoA and a new thought occurred to me. DD > > > performed the Fidelius Charm right? Why wouldn't he testify to > > > clear Black's name? Bookworm: We don't know who performed the Fidelius Charm. Dumbledore offered to be the Secret-Keeper, but the Potters chose Sirius instead, then changed at the last minute to Peter Pettigrew. Supposedly Sirius was the only one who knew about the change. > Carol: > I'm almost certain that Dumbledore testified in a hearing (there was > no trial) that Sirius had been the Potter's Secret Keeper. He believed > that Sirius was guilty, not only at that time but through most of PoA. > Sorry I don't have the page reference at hand. I think Dumbledore was asked a question about it and said something like "that was what I was told" or something else non-committal. He didn't actually say that Sirius was the Secret-Keeper. I remember looking it up a few months ago, but can't remember which scene it was. Dumbledore talking to Fudge during PoA sticks in my mind. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 13 05:48:54 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:48:54 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > It's PoA, Ch 21, "Hermione's Secret" US pg 392: > > "I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the > Potters' Secret-Keeper." > > Dumbledore testified, but not necessarily at a hearing. > But with the damning evidence of a street full of > witnesses and Dumbledore's confirmation that Sirius was Secret- > Keeper, Besides, it's not like he had a trial or anything. When > and where did Dumbledore give this evidence? We don't know. He > could have just told the Minister or Crouch what he knew in a > conversation or it could have been some sort of hearing. Either > way, Crouch didn't give Sirius a chance to defend himself, and the > only people who could have helped him died because of him. I'll bet > Sirius didn't even try to explain what happened, he was so guilty > for what he'd done. Bookworm: Ok, I was off a bit in my last post (90838). But I think this is more of Dumbledore's evasion. We don't know what the evidence was and he doesn't actually say that Sirius was the Secret-Keeper, just that he gave some kind of evidence. It probably was that the Potters told him they had chosen Sirius instead of Dumbledore. It may seem like stretching the point, but I think Dumbledore is covering up something else here. More on that when I fine-tune my theory. Ravenclaw Bookworm From frost_indri at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 05:56:10 2004 From: frost_indri at yahoo.com (frost_indri) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:56:10 -0000 Subject: Animagi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90840 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > > But McGonagall as a cat? Maybe she just likes cats and is convential > > enough to use the traditional witch's familiar to transform into. > > > Sawsan here: > Perhaps there is something about cats that is similar to McGonagall as > well. I am not sure. The only > similarity I see about McGonagall and cats is that she seems to have 9 lives as well I would think McGonagall should turn into an owl, as they are symbols of being wise, and are very important to the series. > Frost: The cat always made sense to me, but then again, I am partial to them.=^_^= I think the animal is based more off of charicter traits associated with the animal. Cats tend to be quiet (excepting for when in heat) watchers, aloof, and somewhat mysterious. And not to mention, reserved. And they have claws when they want to, and pads when they don't. (Ah, the glory of extendable claws.) McGonagall tends to watch things, and acts when she feels is appropriate. She is defiantly aloof, and very much reserved. And man, does she have claws! (Take that you little toad!) She is fast, sleek and cunning, when she wants/ needs to be. I don't know if she looks cat-like, or if her name matches, but she seems to fit to a cat in an all around character profile. Frost From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Feb 13 06:00:00 2004 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 06:00:00 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 Questn 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90841 --- "kiricat2001" wrote: > > Chap. 11 ? The Sorting Hat's New Song > > Questions: > 1. How *does* the Hat get its information? Is it unbiased or is > it a Headmaster mouthpiece? > ANSWERS SO FAR: Question 1 wote ... Hat gets its information ... - it reads students' minds, or maybe to formulate it a little differently - reads into their magical essense. I don't think that Hat is biased in the sense that its a Headmaster mouthpiece. I don't buy the idea that Sorting is predecided and Harry for example was bound to end up in Gryffindor. I think that Hat is somehow magically forced to do what founders wanted, but at the same time it can shake off such spell. I mean if Hat can wonder whether dividing Students in the different Houses is wrong during the dark times, surely at some point in the future books it may decide to do something about it. "annemehr" < annemehr > wrote ... it is not the Headmaster's mouthpiece. I imagine NHN would recognise if it took on the personallities of individual headmasters, but the way he talks about it after the song it seems to keep its own characteristics. Carol: I was just thinking about the Sorting Hat and the challenge of making it into a character with a distinctive personality. I don't think that the Sorting Hat is the headmaster's mouthpiece, even though it agrees with Dumbledore on the need for unity, since according to Sir Nick it's made the same statement before, presumably pre-Dumbledore. Also, all four founders put their thoughts and preferences into it, so even though it was Godric Gryffindor's to begin with, I don't think it has a pro-Gryffindor or pro-Dumbledore bias. (If it did, it would never have suggested that Harry would do well in Slytherin.) I think it really reads the children's thoughts (some sort of Legilmency spell) and puts them where it thinks they'll fit. Sometimes, as with Seamus and Neville, it takes a long time to decide, and not all of the students are going to help it out by thinking "Not Slytherin!" as Harry did. Some of them will have no idea where they want to go. Hermione says that it considered putting her in Ravenclaw. That must have been a tough call. It's possible that the Sorting Hat makes mistakes, even though it says in Book One that it's never yet been wrong. But I do think it has its own mind and makes its own decisions without being told in advance which house to put the students in. Why have a Sorting Hat at all if it's only the headmaster's mouthpiece? Arya wrote: I think the fact that the Hat has long been around well before Dumbledore precludes it from being his 'mouthpiece'. I'm thinking there is a certain sentinece to it. It's got knowledge from way back in the Founders' days and I think it continues to soak up a bit of all that goes on about it. And for what it's worth, I think we'll see another primetime appearance from the Hat like in CoS. It, like the Sword of G-dor, are Godric's relics and I think they have a role to play in coutering the Heir of Slytherin. Again. AUSSIE_LOL: The source of its info to form opinions about unity in this time is from: - it's 1000 years of experience - eaves dropping on portraits in Headmaster's office - discussions with the headmaster, but makes it's own opinion To decide on which house for the student: - Mind reading ("it's all here in your head" SS Chap 7) - The Hat's own agenda ... Why didn't it put Hermoine in Ravenclaw? Or Neville in Hufflepuff? or any other strange sorting ... because it is trying to unite the school with cross sortings. For a while they have to put up with (SS Chap 10) "It's no wonder no one can stand her,"+"she's a nightmare, honestly." ... but can help be the source of respect and unity with that other Hogwarts house. ~aussie~ From CindyJ2 at cox.net Thu Feb 12 21:17:57 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:17:57 -0600 Subject: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] References: Message-ID: <011001c3f1ad$afcdc440$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 90842 Sawsan here: > We were also saying how she has been mentioned in the book a few times and later, her Auntie Amelia Bones (who is part of the Wizengamot and was at Harry's hearing in OotP) told Susan that Harry could produce a corpreal Patronus, which excited her and she joined the DA. We were speculating that perhaps she will get a bigger role in later books, now that she has joined the DA and now that Voldie's return has been proven. Perhaps Auntie Amelia will start to spend more time around the Weasleys and will join the Order. Also, perhaps Susan will grow closer to Harry, partly because of her membership in the DA, and partly because she has a sad past similar to Harry's. (She has lost many family members the the Death Eaters). >>>> Hi everyone, I'm new here, and I'm *thrilled* to find other HP adult nutters like me...lol. I originally read the books because a good friend told me how horrible they were. She was shocked that I allowed my sons to read them. So I did what any good parent would do--I read them myself. And I was hooked. We now have 2 sets. One is hardback, (mine--lol) and the other is paperback. Anyhoo, about Susan Bones... JKR said that in book 6 someone would switch houses. I think it will either be Susan or Luna to Gryffindor. Maybe that's why Susan is getting noticed here and there. Just an idea... Cindy From CindyJ2 at cox.net Thu Feb 12 21:21:01 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:21:01 -0600 Subject: Snape's Patronus References: Message-ID: <011701c3f1ae$1d8d0310$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 90843 Paula: >I don't think it makes sense to think Snape has no happy memories. >*Everyone* has at least one happy memory. I don't think you need a happy-happy-happy memory to perform the charm. Harry imagined Umbridge getting sacked to produce a patronus, remember? That's not a genuine happy memory, but rather a righteous ha-ha wishful thinking kind of thought. Following that logic, all Snape would have to do is imagine expelling Harry to produce a patronus. Cindy From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Thu Feb 12 21:49:22 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:49:22 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90844 Corinth: > Dumbledore suggested the use of the Fidelius charm, but I don't > believe he was the one to actually cast it. I've always assumed > that Lily and James cast it themselves. It's stated several times > that only Lily, James, Sirius, and Peter knew that Peter was the > Secret Keeper, so if a third party was needed to cast the spell, I > assume Sirius would have been the one to do so. > > The Potters told Dumbledore that they were going to use Sirius as > their Secret Keeper, and they never told him of the later switch. > Therefore, he had no way of knowing that Sirius was innocent. Thanks Corinth for pointing that out. I just assumed that because it was an immensely complex spell, that the natural person to do it would be DD because he is so powerful. It would be possible for James and Lily to do it they because Lily was very good at charms. thanks John From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Thu Feb 12 22:05:02 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:05:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90845 Snape has to have a happy memory. But I think the problem people have with this post is the definition of a happy memory. What makes people happy is different from person to person. Say for instance a death eater could have a happy memory of killing someone or torturing someone. That would be a happy memory. Plus Snape had a home life that was maybe worse then Harry's, and since Harry used the idea of leaving his aunt and uncle, wouldn't Snape be able to produce a Patronus too? Thanks John From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Feb 12 22:19:09 2004 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:19:09 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Patronus References: Message-ID: <402BFBDD.9080000@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90846 Lucy Phoenix wrote: > Kneasy: > > > > I bet he's got at least one. > > What do y'all think Snape's Patronus will look like, if he can make > one? > Lucy A bunny! Not really. Maybe a silver wolf, being as Snape is a bit of a lone wolf type. Even though there is a pack he technically belongs in, 'The Order', he is still an outsider to them and doesn't get too close. Jazmyn From claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 02:47:34 2004 From: claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 02:47:34 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90847 "Julie wrote: Speaking of Luna and the Quibbler, any speculations about why she and Ginny read it upside down? " Doesn't JKR explain it when Harry is reading it, that it is some sort of spell to turn your enemies' ears into kumquats? Also I wonder about the appearance of Loopy Luna in OotP, she plays a major part in the book, and nearly all the previous books major characters have re-appeared in other books, unless they were killed. So other than someone's potential date, I wonder how she will fit into Books 6 & 7. I think the Quibbler may still have a big role to play. Anyone else care to speculate? Chris Read my fanfic at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/merlin_legacy From bumchum22 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 13 07:06:08 2004 From: bumchum22 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Sharada?=) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:06:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Animagi reproducing? In-Reply-To: <1076649310.4823.64483.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040213070608.68141.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90848 *snip snip snip * > Dave: > > > > Not half so mind-boggling as if the *male* is the giant! > > Sawsan: > Ummm, honestly Dave, I think it would be more difficult for a human .................................................................How > the heck is he gonna impregnate her. I just can't see it. > As for the difficulty of a human woman mating a Giant, well, I am sure that some women will not mind it all, in fact I think they go looking for the most giant giants of all. I will leave it at that. > Frost: > Ermmm... Ok. Giant as in human giant, maybe... but face it. Women's bodies can only accoidat so much before there's bone to deal with, and the skin stops stretching. >> *snip snip snip * Hi, Long since I have written actually. But my point of view on this is simple. I presume that giants(male/female) have magical powers. So if a female giant did for some reason, magically transform herself into normal human lady, and found this man attractive and married and had kids with him. I mean no human man by knowing can marry such a huge woman. I don't have exact book or page number, but I think Hagrid says that his father didn't know for a while his mom was a giantess. That can explain many things right? Just my point of view. Mrs Harry(I am only 22) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 09:06:06 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:06:06 -0000 Subject: Was Lily good at Charms or not? ...Proof?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: > ... I just assumed that because it was an immensely complex spell, > that the natural person to do it would be DD because he is so > powerful. It would be possible for James and Lily to do it they > because Lily was very good at charms. > > thanks > John bboy_mn: Were does it say anywhere in the book that Lily was exceptionally good at Charms? I don't think it does. Although, I will say that it seems she was quite a brilliant witch, and James and Sirius were also a couple of the most brilliant students to ever come through Hogwarts, so to assume Lily was good at charms is a very reasonable assumption, but nothing more than an assumption. What the book does say is that is that James had a mahogany wand and that the wood mahogany lends itself to transfigurations, and that Lily had a willow wand, and that willow wood lends itself to Charms. Although, I admit there is a bit of room for interpretation. So Lily has willow and willow is good for charms, but we don't know what the core was. We don't know the core favored Charms, we don't know the length favored Charms, we don't know the style favored Charms. It could have had a core that was strongly suited to transfigurations. The thing is, we don't know. That being said, I think she, as the excellent witch I ASSUME Lily to be, would naturally be good at charms. If fact, even if Charms were her weakest point, I would ASSUME that she would still be very good at it. I'm just pointing this out, because people keep commenting about Lily being good at Charms as if it were an absolute fact and a significant plot point, but I personally don't think the evidence is there to back it up. There are vague hints and it is a reasonable assumption, just as it is a reasonable assumption that James, Tom, and Sirius were all good at Charms. We assume they were good, because we assume they were good at everything, but I see no indicator, much less proof, that any of them were of the highest order of excellence at any one specific thing. I think they probably had their one point of excellence, but nothing in the books tell us what it was. So, a safe assumption, but nothing more than an assumption, and one that I personally don't think is of any particular importants. If future books prove me wrong, I will be more than willing to eat my electrons. Just a thought. bboy_mn From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 13 09:06:04 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:06:04 -0000 Subject: Ship predictions (scenarios) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90850 I'm not really a shipping person but as everybody else is having a go, here's my little take. Given JKR's passion for Jane Austen, I have no doubt at all that Hermione will finish up with Ron. Think not just Elizabeth Bennet and Darcy, but Marianne Dashwood, who is constantly sniping at poor Colonel Brandon until nearly the end of the book, and poor deluded Emma who can't see the wood for the trees where Mr. Knightley is concerned. Also, there's Beatrice and Benedick, the original quarrelling/secretly in love couple. This may sound as if Jo is following a rather well-trod path but I don't mean it like that. To compare her to Jane is one of the highest compliments I can pay her. Sylvia From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri Feb 13 09:34:46 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:34:46 -0000 Subject: Dark SHIPS [HPforGrownups] ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: <200006180121.48145.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > > Kneasy: > >Let me briefly summarise my thinking, mostly as an escape from the posts of the fevered bunch who have succumbed to the SHIPping-itis outbreak.Fortunately, some of us have been innoculated against romance, or maybe it's a function of age. > > Then: > > Sawsan, who chooses to ignore Kneasy's comment on SHIPpingitis and > > snide remarks about Harry and DD. > > *Silmariel, who is going trough TBAY deprivation, tries to recompose herself* > Well I won't ignore it, because I'm not inoculated against romance and definitely in the age for it, I'm just inmune to adolescent pairing in general, but show me couples with dark or adult material and you'll have my eye, if they make any sense in the plot. Say Snape, Lucius, Tom/McG, Lupin... > > Silmariel, remembering where FEATHERBOAs come from, and smiling. Carolyn, who so agrees: And what happened to that thread about Bellatrix being Harry's dark obsession... something more suitable for Valentine's day methinks. From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 13 09:36:37 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:36:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90852 > What do y'all think Snape's Patronus will look like, if he can make > one? > > Kneasy wrote (#90794): > A wolverine. > Vicious, effective, a loner, but not a coward. > And very definitely not something to mess with. > > Berit replies: > > I'm not sure. I just can't imagine Snape's patronus being anything > that remotely resembles anything dog-like, considering how much he > hates the "dog" Sirius and the "wolf" Lupin... :-) I don't see Snape > as a "dog"-person (much to my dismay; I'm very much a dog-person > myself; but love Snape anyway). If Snape's patronus takes on the > shape of a carnivore, I rather think it's something cat-like, like a > panther or a leopard. A "cat" patronus also goes better with Snape's > personality, don't you think? The way he's prowling the corridors, > always ready to pounce on any student that steps out of line > (especially Harry :-). And he has the strength and the cunning of a > big, malicious cat as well...(not big and heavy and imposing and > openly boisterous and bragging like a lion; but sleek, secretive, > unpredictable, powerful and solitary like a panther/leopard. Very > definitely not something to mess with :-) > > > Anne wrote (#90797): > We have him with a Vulture Patronis--symbol of ressurection > > Of course, we also have him as an animagi; we chose a Raven-- another > symbol of night, darkness, and in some cultures ressurection. > > Berit replies: > > A vulture is not a bad suggestion! I can very well see Snape's > patronus taking on that form. I can see it take on the form of a > raven too; why not? Sigune muses: I like the idea of a scorpion - a poisonous animal with a sting in its tail - fits in nicely with the stinging sarcasm :). Though as a cat lover I also like Berit's suggestions. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 09:42:56 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:42:56 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] In-Reply-To: <011001c3f1ad$afcdc440$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90853 Cindy writes: > I'm new here, and I'm *thrilled* to find other HP adult nutters like me...lol. (snip) Ginger: Welcome to the nutters! I think we *all* have been thrilled to find that we aren't the only adult HP fans. Cindy continues: > Anyhoo, about Susan Bones... JKR said that in book 6 someone would switch houses. I think it will either be Susan or Luna to Gryffindor. Maybe that's why Susan is getting noticed here and there. Ginger: I gotta admit, that's a totally new one on me. Do you remember where you heard it? (date, time, place, what you had for breakfast that morning-we're really into specifics here). OK, just kidding about the breakfast, but if you could provide a reference, I'd be greatful. I would have to wonder who would want to switch by the time they were Harry's age. After 5 (give or take, depending on the character) years, loyalties and friendships would have been formed. Perhaps the elusive "good Slytherin" will be ostracized and will be sent to Gryffindor, or at least become friends with a DA member and join. Glad to have you. Stick around. The discussions here are great! Ginger From belijako at online.no Fri Feb 13 11:32:53 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:32:53 -0000 Subject: Animagi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90854 Frost wrote (about McGonagall): The cat always made sense to me, but then again, I am partial to them.=^_^= I think the animal is based more off of charicter traits associated with the animal. Cats tend to be quiet (excepting for when in heat) watchers, aloof, and somewhat mysterious. And not to mention, reserved. And they have claws when they want to, and pads when they don't. (Ah, the glory of extendable claws.) Berit replies: I'd just like to add a few other characteristics of the cat that fits nicely to McGonagall's personality: Strong-willed and stubborn, proud and dignified... :-) Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Feb 13 12:05:02 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:05:02 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 Question 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90855 Marianne wrote: > 2. Would there be greater unity within Hogwarts of the tradition > of sorting students into houses was abolished? I find it hard to answer this question with reference to canon alone. I think the problem at Hogwarts is not that students are sorted but the criteria for the sorting, personal characteristic. Normally, sorting into houses for schools that have them is essentially random (with the exception that siblings all go into the same house at some schools). This creates division that doesn't matter off the sports field, while creating an incentive for unity within a house across the divisions that naturally come up at school (academic ability, athletic ability, social background, and subject matter selection). So, at my school, each year was divided into four classes according to academic ability, but each class had a mix of the four houses (it always seems to be four) - unlike Hogwarts. Putting all people with characteristics that are clearly identifiable, as at Hogwarts, is bound to exacerbate divisions, IMO. It doesn't do the Slytherins any good (again IMO) to stigmatise them, before they start a single lesson, as deceitful and grasping, with the implication that that is how they will remain (because you don't change house). David From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 13 12:15:01 2004 From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:15:01 -0000 Subject: Potter and Beaker Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90856 Hi All, There's an interesting piece in the Times on adults reading kid's books. It talks about Rowling, Pullman, and Haddon, but ends up making the point that kids want some books to be theirs, not shared with us adults. That's where they say Jacqueline Wilson comes in. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,542-999577,00.html http://tinyurl.com/2ankl Cheers, Dumbledad. From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 13 12:48:52 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:48:52 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] In-Reply-To: <011001c3f1ad$afcdc440$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90857 > > Cindy wrote: > > I'm new here, and I'm *thrilled* to find other HP adult nutters like me...lol. I originally read the books because a good friend told me how horrible they were. She was shocked that I allowed my sons to read them. So I did what any good parent would do--I read them myself. And I was hooked. > > We now have 2 sets. One is hardback, (mine--lol) and the other is paperback. > > Anyhoo, about Susan Bones... JKR said that in book 6 someone would switch houses. I think it will either be Susan or Luna to Gryffindor. Maybe that's why Susan is getting noticed here and there. > > Just an idea... Sawsan here: Welcome! Come on in! This is a secret organization dedicated to prophecising the outcome of and diciphering the HP books, so don't tell anyone about us!!! Ok I had to feel important for a few minutes forgive me. No seriously, welcome, have fun, and always bring your two cents/pence. As for the switching of houses, I never heard about that one. I hope we will be getting someone who will be friendly to the trio. I think that if it will be someone we already know, and someone who is on friendly terms with the trio, then it might be Luna to add some craziness now that the twins are gone(they can never be replaced!!! ::sobs bitterly). I would rather it be Susan though, now that I am somewhat partial to her for Harry. (I don't know why really.) Though IMHO I think JKR would go down the bullied Slytherin route, because I don't see why anyone would leave their house otherwise. Sawsan, who thinks you can add what you had for breakfast as well, and perhaps we can do some prophecising from that. :P From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Fri Feb 13 13:11:58 2004 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:11:58 -0000 Subject: Perkins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90858 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > I can't check it right now - my daughter took the book to read (how > dare she?!) - but my impression is that he went whenever the > Dursleys went out because they didn't want to leave him alone in the > house. Why would going to the zoo on Dudley's birthday be any > different from the rest of the year? > > Ravenclaw Bookworm Okay, I've been trying to find every reference to Mrs Figg in the books and elsewhere for the past half hour or so, but I really didn't find much besides the passage I've already quoted (PS2). In OP2, Harry asks her "all those times I came round your house - why didn't you say anything?", so that seems to imply he's been there quite a lot (which also makes more sense). But on the other hand, the Lexicon says of Figgy, "Used to babysit Harry every year on Dudley's birthday". And of course, since Harry has been around for Dudley's past 14 or so birthdays, that might be enough to call "all those times". So, I really don't know. :) Eva. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Feb 13 15:12:21 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:12:21 -0000 Subject: Dark SHIPS [HPforGrownups] ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90859 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > > > Well I won't ignore it, because I'm not inoculated against romance > and definitely in the age for it, I'm just inmune to adolescent > pairing in general, but show me couples with dark or adult material > and you'll have my eye, if they make any sense in the plot. Say > Snape, Lucius, Tom/McG, Lupin... > > > > Silmariel, remembering where FEATHERBOAs come from, and smiling. > > Carolyn, who so agrees: > > And what happened to that thread about Bellatrix being Harry's dark > obsession... something more suitable for Valentine's day methinks. Huh. Time for a rant (or moan, depending on your point of view). It seems to be de rigeur to shake the finger at kindly, white bearded, twinkly-spectacled, portly old gentlemen (just like Kneasy) for failing to enthuse over the speculative amorous shenanigans beloved of some of, shall we say, the more excitable wing of the romantic tendency among the membership. Ah, the follies of youth! Perhaps the jaundiced view has something to do with the difference between fictional romance and the horrors of the real thing. We do, and I use the plural not in the Royal sense but to include all those battle- scared veterans, those survivors of those dire moments when the realisation strikes home that the object of your desires, perfection personified, truly believes in horoscopes, Feng Shui, cabbage water diets and the efficacy of crystals in warding off the plague and expects your life to be governed by them too. It's traumatic; believe you me. To all those avid SHIPpers I say - extrapolate. Let's jump the gun on JKR and look a bit further ahead; what will we see? What will these people be in a decade or two? Neville will collect stamps (or the WW equivalent) and will never go out without his thermal underwear. Ron will concentrate all his energies on his true vocation - being a full- time Quidditch fan. The Chudley Cannons fixture list will rule his life. Harry will spend his evenings down the pub, wondering why life is so boring these days and boring everybody else by telling them so. Hermione will nag - after all she knows she has all the answers, so why don't they listen? Harpy Hermione. Luna will swear by horoscopes, Feng Shui, cabbage water diets, etc, etc. Ginny. I have expectations of Ginny. I think she'll become what was known in Kipling's time as "a reg'lar baddun." True romance, eh? Try it with that lot. The pink haze of hormonal tunnel vision soon wears off and then comes the time of decision - will those cute little habits seem as sweet on a wet November morning as they do now? It's advisable to tell the truth. When he stumbles around in underpants whose elastic has failed (and he doesn't notice because his waist-line is in the way) and her varicose veins remind you of DD's scar map of the Underground (with the cellulite providing contour lines) will it still be romantic? Sweet dreams of bygone passion. Memories of Bella will make Harry even more unsettled. He will fantasise on what might have been - any current spouse is sure to come off worst in the comparison. It's not possible to compete with a dream. The fact that he was totally inadeqate to her needs will never cross his mind; he was the hero, wasn't he? And heroes always come out on top(!). Poor Harry; he might even be bald. No wonder the series ends so soon. Happy Valentines. Kneasy From rredordead at aol.com Fri Feb 13 15:15:50 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:15:50 -0000 Subject: Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90860 > > *Silmariel, who is going trough TBAY deprivation, tries to > recompose herself* > > Well I won't ignore it, because I'm not inoculated against romance and definitely in the age for it, I'm just inmune to adolescent pairing in general, but show me couples with dark or adult material and you'll have my eye, if they make any sense in the plot. Say Snape, Lucius, Tom/McG, Lupin... > Carolyn, who so agrees: > And what happened to that thread about Bellatrix being Harry's dark obsession... something more suitable for Valentine's day methinks. Mandy here: Very suitable indeed... My thread about Harry and Bellatrix was laid low because I was practically lynched, for daring to suggest the existence of sexual desire between a woman and, what American's consider, a minor. (Harry, at 16, is still a minor in the US, although a consenting adult in Britain.) Some members were terrified the site might be shut down or something, so we dropped it. But.....::wicked grin:: Well Owl post from Hell never hurt anyone, right? For those who missed it, I said before that Harry is undoubtedly attracted to Bellatrix in more ways than one. Not just because she killed Sirius, which is prime drive now, but he also demonstrated that the he seemed very drawn to her picture in the Prophet. She represents all that is dark and dangerous to Harry in a very different way from LV. We, also know he is not afraid of her, or in enough control of his senses to stop himself from chasing her down, and falling right in to LV's arms. Until Bellatrix, the series was missing a dangerous, attractive, older woman who represents the darker, manipulative side of sexuality to the teens. Although we did breifly glimps this in the Veela and Fleur Delacour in GoF. Every school has that one `sexy/attractive' teacher, who is the older crush the boys fall in love with. Hogwarts doesn't have one, yet, so unless the new DADA teacher fills this vacancy (Fleur anyone?), Bellatrix will do very well indeed. For Harry if not the others. Very exciting! We will see a show-down between them the two of them and I think he will find her irresistible. I personally, would like to see Voldy! Salazar use Bellatrix to draw Harry in. She is one of only two Death Eaters left, and she holds Harry in the palm of her hand with Sirius' death. Why wouldn't a woman such as Bella take advantage of his youth and vulnerability? What was it I said Harry would say in my last post? "Shall I kill her...or kiss her before I kill her." Thanks for bringing this up again. Cheers, Mandy. From RACH911 at aol.com Fri Feb 13 08:44:25 2004 From: RACH911 at aol.com (rach9112000) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:44:25 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] In-Reply-To: <011001c3f1ad$afcdc440$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy Jenkins" wrote: > > Hi everyone, (snipped) > Anyhoo, about Susan Bones... JKR said that in book 6 someone would switch houses. I think it will either be Susan or Luna to Gryffindor. Maybe that's why Susan is getting noticed here and there. > > Just an idea... > > Cindy Rachel writes: I've heard in other posts about the house switching which is set to take place in book 6 but I haven't actually read the interview myself. Could you tell me when JKR said that because i'd really like to read the interview? Thanks. Rachel From pfsch at gmx.de Fri Feb 13 13:41:21 2004 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:41:21 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 The Sorting Hat's New Song In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90862 Hi! Marianne: > 2. Would there be greater unity within Hogwarts of the tradition > of sorting students into houses was abolished? I doubt it. It's some matter of administration, too, after all. As long as members of the houses can be friends or even couples with each other, there is a Hogwarts unity. Even in one big&happy Hogwarts house, pupils would form groups. And there are inter-house friendships. > 3. What does the Hat do with a pureblood child who is brave, > cunning and intelligent? Is this child a Hufflepuff? Harry's case shows it: if a child shows characteristics of more than one house, it's merely up to the child to chose. Perhaps without the child knowing that. Also Hermione could have been sorted into Ravenclaw, her sorting into Gryffindor seems to be (at least partly) her choice. I reckon the hat guesses which house the child would most identify with. The books never mention a child that was sorted into a house (s)he didn't like to be in. I might be corrected in future books (according to the rumour about someone changing houses). Imagine a kid (let's name him Harry) sorted into Slytherin without liking them - it'd be hell. Or Malfoy sorted into Hufflepuff (one might discuss for whom that'd be more of hell*g*). Goodbite Peter (www.mondratte.de) From rredordead at aol.com Fri Feb 13 15:47:33 2004 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:47:33 -0000 Subject: Dark SHIPS [HPforGrownups] ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90863 > Kneasy wrote: > Neville will collect stamps (or the WW equivalent) and will never go out without his thermal underwear. > Ron will concentrate all his energies on his true vocation - being a full-time Quidditch fan. The Chudley Cannons fixture list will rule his life. > Harry will spend his evenings down the pub, wondering why life is so boring these days and boring everybody else by telling them so. > Hermione will nag - after all she knows she has all the answers, so why don't they listen? Harpy Hermione. > Luna will swear by horoscopes, Feng Shui, cabbage water diets, etc, etc. > Ginny. I have expectations of Ginny. I think she'll become what was > known in Kipling's time as "a reg'lar baddun." > > > Memories of Bella will make Harry even more unsettled. He will fantasise on what might have been - any current spouse is sure to come off worst in the comparison. It's not possible to compete with a dream. The fact that he was totally inadeqate to her needs will never cross his mind; he was the hero, wasn't he? And heroes always come out on top(!). Poor Harry; he might even be bald. Mandy here: Brilliant and sure to raise the heckles on many a fan. I wanted to add: Draco, who will take over his father's empire. Be the richest, best looking and most desirably eligible bachelor in the world. Marry some fabulously beautiful but vapid model, who will spend all his money with glee. They both will be very happy. Fleur will marry Bill, live at the Burrow and spend her life bitterly regretting the day she left Paris. Fred and George will marry a pair of twins, have 12 kids between them, and will prosper for a while. Until Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes goes under due to Toy's Are Wizarding Us expanding into the jokes market. They will refuse to be bought out, and will fail to replicate their initial success. Evenings will be spent down the pub with Harry. Shamus will move to Hollywood and become the next Irish, stud movie star. Oliver Wood will sign on to play for England, suffer a Bludger to the head and damage his inner ear. He will never regain a correct sense of balance. Dudley will become Heavy Weight Boxing Champion of the world and make millions in endorsements. Cheers Mandy From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 15:49:02 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:49:02 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > I personally, would like to see Voldy!Salazar use Bellatrix to draw Harry in. She is one of only two Death > Eaters left, and she holds Harry in the palm of her hand with > Sirius' death. Annemehr: I have no quibbles with most of Mandy's post, but I'm sure that LV has more than two DEs left after the MoM battle. I did a post on it, #85064, where I lay out all the reasoning, but the conclusion I drew was that there are more than six at large. How many more than six there are depends on how many DEs Voldemort passed in silence in the GoF graveyard without naming: "[Voldemort] walked on. Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them." (GoF, ch. 33) I figure it's a pretty safe bet there are at least ten DEs still at large (and I agree with Draco that the others won't stay in Azkaban for long). Annemehr who thinks maybe empathy for Neville could keep Harry from really acting on any Bellatrix attraction -- though that wouldn't prevent some really good angsting From CoyotesChild at charter.net Fri Feb 13 16:32:43 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:32:43 -0600 Subject: Dark SHIPS [HPforGrownups] ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801c3f24f$0480e480$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 90865 > Mandy here: > > Dudley will become Heavy Weight Boxing Champion of the world and > make millions in endorsements. Iggy here: (Adding to the last comment) Until he fights Evander Hollyfeld and tries to bite off Evander's other ear (after all, Dudley thought a "cauliflower ear" meant it was edible), thus spawning a series of lawsuits and stays in prison, causing him to eventually declare bankruptcy. And now, a few add-ins from me... Peter Pettigrew will be the only Death Eater to survive and redeem himself. He will become a success in Hollywood as a professional "rodent wrangler" for movies like "Willard" and anything that takes place in NY sewers and deserted caves in the Andes. Vernon will realize that wizards aren't so bad, and that working in the drill industry is too boring. He and Petunia (who has discovered magic of her own in her later years, revealing her as the "self imposed Squib.") will fulfill Vernon's secret life-long dream and open a Big and Tall clothing shop. Because of the fame of Petunia's newfound magic, they will be the first mixed couple to be invited to own a shop on Diagon Alley. Hagrid and Madame. Maxime will marry (after she transfers to Hogwarts as their new Headmistress), and have a horde of Half-Giant children. Fortunately, this will give the Dursley's new shop just the boost they need to get off the ground. In later years, their children will form the world's only Half-Giant Quidditch team, the Hogsmeade Hulks. Dumbledore and McGonagall will marry and both retire to live next door to Honeyduke's so Albus can be near his beloved candy. Unfortunately, Dumbledore will become diabetic and have to give up sweets. Their marriage will eventually end badly when Minerva accuses Albus of following in his brother's footsteps to ease the pain he feels at not being able to eat candy anymore, and Dumbledore accuses her back of only marrying him as a pale substitute for her true secret love... Tom Riddle. Hermione will discover Sapphic love with, of all people, Sybille Trelawny. This fling will last only two years, since the relationship ends when their most common arguments revolve around not being able to stand living with another "know it all." Trelawny will confine herself to her tower and never come out again. Hermione will spend the rest of her life hanging out at gay bars and in a series of one unsuccessful relationship after another until, in her old age, she finally settles down with one of the many daughters of the Weasley twins. As a note to the Weasley Twin's lives, they and their identical twin wives will realize that it is useless to try and tell each other apart, and will enter into an "alternative" lifestyle of polyamory, thus completely destroying any chance of establishing a Weasley Family Tree from there on out. Iggy McSnurd (Who wonders if this thread should move to OTC or not from here out...) From rmm7e at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 17:49:41 2004 From: rmm7e at yahoo.com (Regina) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 17:49:41 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > Julie wrote: > > Speaking of Luna and the Quibbler, any speculations about why she > > and Ginny read it upside down? I've wondered about coded messages, > > and being used the way the portraits are and possibly the chocolate > > frogs cards. Any other speculations? > > > Sawsan here: > I remember at the beginning when Harry first met Luna in the Hogwarts > Express, she was reading the Quibbler upside down. He later got a hold > of it and realized why. There was some article about the runes I think > and it said if you read it upside down you could turn your enemies > ears into Quamquats(sp?) or something. I think when Ginny was reading it, she had taken a quiz in the magazine and turned it upside down to mark her answers. --Regina From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 18:02:32 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:02:32 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 Questn 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90867 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > > AUSSIE_LOL: > The source of its info to form opinions about unity in this time is > from: > - it's 1000 years of experience > - eaves dropping on portraits in Headmaster's office > - discussions with the headmaster, but makes it's own opinion > > To decide on which house for the student: > - Mind reading ("it's all here in your head" SS Chap 7) > - The Hat's own agenda ... > Why didn't it put Hermoine in Ravenclaw? Or Neville in Hufflepuff? or > any other strange sorting ... because it is trying to unite the > school with cross sortings. For a while they have to put up with (SS > Chap 10) "It's no wonder no one can stand her,"+"she's a nightmare, > honestly." ... but can help be the source of respect and unity with > that other Hogwarts house. ~aussie~ LizVega here: The sorting hat decides where the students will go. The sorting hat also has knowledge about the past and future that the reader doesn't know about yet. In OOP the sorting hat's new song talked about being forced to 'quarter' the students. I love the idea of the sorting hat making the decision to place students in houses that aren't necessarily conducive to the founder's requirements. If the students were sorted based solely on their aptitude for bravery, intelligence, ambition, and loyalty it would seem that there would definitely be a problem with some houses receiving fewer and fewer students. And, I'm sure that the first years that come from wizarding families already know which house they want to be sorted into. Ron and Draco were both worried about which house they would go to. Even though Hermione isn't from a magical family, she read about Hogwarts before coming to the school, so she probably had an idea about where she wanted to go. Harry asked the hat not to place him in Slytherin, I wonder if the hat listened to any of the other requests that were surely made? Also, there are a few students that show different personalities than the stereotypical traits assigned to the houses. Cedric Diggory brought 'acclaim' to the hufflepuff's when he was made tri-wizard champion. At the Hog's Head all of the DA members were astounded with Hermione's intelligence and asked her why she wasn't in Ravenclaw. Neville probably thinks he should've gone to hufflepuff. Here's a thought: If the sorting hat put people where they requested to go/or where there was room- how many 'nice, brave, intelligent' students went to slytherin? Has Harry had any contact with Slytherin's like this yet? From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 13 18:20:02 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:20:02 -0000 Subject: Dark SHIPS [HPforGrownups] ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: <000801c3f24f$0480e480$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90868 > Iggy wrote: > > Until he fights Evander Hollyfeld and tries to bite off Evander's other > ear (after all, Dudley thought a "cauliflower ear" meant it was edible), > thus spawning a series of lawsuits and stays in prison, causing him to > eventually declare bankruptcy. > > > And now, a few add-ins from me... > > Peter Pettigrew will be the only Death Eater to survive and redeem > himself. He will become a success in Hollywood as a professional > "rodent wrangler" for movies like "Willard" and anything that takes > place in NY sewers and deserted caves in the Andes. > > Vernon will realize that wizards aren't so bad, and that working in the > drill industry is too boring. He and Petunia (who has discovered magic > of her own in her later years, revealing her as the "self imposed > Squib.") will fulfill Vernon's secret life-long dream and open a Big and > Tall clothing shop. Because of the fame of Petunia's newfound magic, > they will be the first mixed couple to be invited to own a shop on > Diagon Alley. > > Hagrid and Madame. Maxime will marry (after she transfers to Hogwarts as > their new Headmistress), and have a horde of Half-Giant children. > Fortunately, this will give the Dursley's new shop just the boost they > need to get off the ground. In later years, their children will form > the world's only Half-Giant Quidditch team, the Hogsmeade Hulks. > > Dumbledore and McGonagall will marry and both retire to live next door > to Honeyduke's so Albus can be near his beloved candy. Unfortunately, > Dumbledore will become diabetic and have to give up sweets. Their > marriage will eventually end badly when Minerva accuses Albus of > following in his brother's footsteps to ease the pain he feels at not > being able to eat candy anymore, and Dumbledore accuses her back of only > marrying him as a pale substitute for her true secret love... Tom > Riddle. > > Hermione will discover Sapphic love with, of all people, Sybille > Trelawny. This fling will last only two years, since the relationship > ends when their most common arguments revolve around not being able to > stand living with another "know it all." Trelawny will confine herself > to her tower and never come out again. Hermione will spend the rest of > her life hanging out at gay bars and in a series of one unsuccessful > relationship after another until, in her old age, she finally settles > down with one of the many daughters of the Weasley twins. > > As a note to the Weasley Twin's lives, they and their identical twin > wives will realize that it is useless to try and tell each other apart, > and will enter into an "alternative" lifestyle of polyamory, thus > completely destroying any chance of establishing a Weasley Family Tree > from there on out. > > > Iggy McSnurd > (Who wonders if this thread should move to OTC or not from here out...) Sawsan here: Wow! This is an interesting view of things. I've taken the old timey route I suppose and got married just shy of 18. I'm twenty-four now and I have been married for a while. You gave me a lot of hope for the rest of my life eh??? ( I suppose I am in Harry's age group considering I was born in 1980). Okay, so they will pretty much all grow up to be miserable old farts and nags. At least they had some fun sometime somewhere?!!! I just hope that if Lord Thingy doesn't die that he will be picking up soap somewhere in a more advanced wizarding prison. Sawsan, who is now going to several a pina coladas and nag about her new founded reality. :P From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 18:38:12 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:38:12 -0000 Subject: Animagi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90869 Sawsan wrote: Perhaps there is something about cats that is similar to McGonagall as well. I am not sure. I was just playing around with these posts, though I believe that there is something particular about the wizard/witch that decides what animal they would change into. The only similarity I see about McGonagall and cats is that she seems to have 9 lives as well when I think about how she was struck in the heart by 4 stunners and came back to school barely limping. I don't understand that one as well, but I don't think its about preference. If that were so then I would expect Peter to have turned into something larger than a rat, considering his friends were all large animals. If anything, I would think McGonagall should turn into an owl, as they are symbols of being wise, and are very important to the series. Carol: All good points, especially the owl, which is connected with Minerva in Roman mythology. (Maybe Minerva McGonagall has an owl patronus.) I like the bit about the nine lives, too, though that's really the only cat/McGonagall connection I can see. As you say, the witch or wizard doesn't choose his or her animagus form; it reflects something inside them--their essence, maybe. Sirius and James should have smelled a rat the moment they saw what Peter turned into. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 19:07:58 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:07:58 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90870 Carol: > >I also wonder why they didn't use Priori Incantatem< > > KathyK: > > Maybe they did. But with the damning evidence of a street full of > witnesses and Dumbledore's confirmation that Sirius was Secret- > Keeper, I imagine it would have been very easy to ignore a little > thing like what Prior Incantato would have revealed. Or it's quite > possible they never bothered with the spell because Sirius appeared > so guilty. Besides, it's not like he had a trial or anything. When > and where did Dumbledore give this evidence? We don't know. He > could have just told the Minister or Crouch what he knew in a > conversation or it could have been some sort of hearing. Either > way, Crouch didn't give Sirius a chance to defend himself, and the > only people who could have helped him died because of him. I'll bet > Sirius didn't even try to explain what happened, he was so guilty > for what he'd done. Carol: I think, given his mad laughter after Peter blew up the Muggles and framed him for the murder, that he wasn't in his right. Guilt for the deaths of Lily and James because switching Secret Keepers had been his idea, fury at Peter for his betrayal, rage at being framed for murders he didn't commit conflicting with what he must have considered the ironic justice of being sent to Azkaban--I think it was all too much for his sanity, which we've seen to be pretty precarious on other occasions (e.g., slashing up the Fat Lady's portrait). Even if he had himself under better control during a hearing (which they must have held to send him to Azkaban and take awsy his wand), I agree that he would not have defended himself. His best friend and his wife were dead, his godson was in someone else's care, another good friend had betrayed him, his family had long since rejected him--what did he have to live for? There was only Remus Lupin left, and he had suspected Lupin of being the traitor. So he would have simply stood there without protesting Dumbledore's words if he heard them. Another thought. If he'd had a trial, would the chains on that chair have bound him as they did the Lestranges and Barty Crouch, Jr.? The seems to sense magically whether a person is guilty or not, rather like the Sorting Hat seeing into students' minds to determine which house they belong in based on their thoughts or feelings and memories. Maybe that's why Crouch, Sr. was so certain that his son was guilty--because he really was and the behavior of the chair proved it. If Sirius had sat in that chair and it hadn't bound him, the Wizengamot might not have needed Priori Incantatem or witnesses or anything else. The chair would have known that he was innocent and Crouch would have had to drop the charges--or at least conduct an investigation, including a cross-examination using good old veritaserum. Given all the magical methods of accessing a person's memory magically, from legilmency to Pensieves, there's really no excuse for sending an innocent witch or wizard to prison. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 19:21:35 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:21:35 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: <011701c3f1ae$1d8d0310$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy Jenkins" wrote: > Paula: > >I don't think it makes sense to think Snape has no happy memories. > >*Everyone* has at least one happy memory. > > I don't think you need a happy-happy-happy memory to perform the charm. Harry imagined Umbridge getting sacked to produce a patronus, remember? That's not a genuine happy memory, but rather a righteous ha-ha wishful thinking kind of thought. Following that logic, all Snape would have to do is imagine expelling Harry to produce a patronus. > > Cindy Carol: That's an interesting idea. apparently the thought doesn't have to be a memory: It can be a fantasy.(!?) If so, Snape could imagine receiving the Order of Merlin (First Class) or getting the DADA post or whatever would make him happiest. I guess Lupin was oversimplifying the process when he said it had to be a memory. Carol, who also wonders how Lupin can just wave away his boggart with his wand without making it appear ridiculous From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 13 19:33:38 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:33:38 -0000 Subject: Dark SHIPS [HPforGrownups] ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: <000801c3f24f$0480e480$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90872 Iggy McSnurd wrote: > Hermione will discover Sapphic love with, of all people, Sybille > Trelawny. This fling will last only two years, since the > relationship ends when their most common arguments revolve around > not being able to stand living with another "know it all." Siriusly Snapey Susan here: Oh, this is rich, Iggy; I love it! But now, in an attempt to provide Neville with just a weeeee taste of contentment, I offer this.... In a brief flaring up of competence inspired by heaven knows what, Neville works with Prof. Sprout and develops a cure for Lupin's werewolfism [wd?]. Neville rakes in a gigantic quantity of galleons and retires to his room & his philately, only he now has the satisfaction of being able to purchase the rarest of stamps. Siriusly Snapey Susan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 19:34:05 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:34:05 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90873 I was rereading OoP last night and realized that the teacher giving the DADA exam to Severus and MWPP in "Snape's Worst Memory" was Professor Flitwick! If he was the DADA professor twenty-one years earlier, why is he teaching Charms now? Granted, he seems much more suited to teach Charms than DADA, but still, why the annual search for a DADA professor (setting aside the possibility that Snape could teach it) when Flitwick is still available? Why not give the position back to Flitwick and find another qualified Charms teacher? That would almost certainly be easier than finding a good DADA teacher (other than Lupin), which seems to be nearly impossible. The only explanation I can think of is that something happened to the real DADA teacher during Severus' fifth year and Flitwick was filling in for him or her during OWLs--rather like Professor Grubbly-Plank filling in for Hagrid. (Really, she ought to be given the job permanently, but that's a topic for another post.) Ideas, anybody? Carol From saitaina at wizzards.net Fri Feb 13 19:39:42 2004 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:39:42 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flitwick as DADA professor? References: Message-ID: <006701c3f269$2120ee40$ae321c40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 90874 Carol wrote: Flitwick also could have wished to move into another field of study. Many tears I know have switched courses over the years, some they just took originally to get a job and later switched to something that was their true passion. Those with duel (or more) expertise can easily switch between them as the job market calls for. A history teacher who is fluent in a foreign language can take on both roles as needed for a job, perhaps the same is true for Flitwick. Saitaina **** "Stoppable, get back here and save us! Or more specifically me!" http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 19:42:38 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:42:38 -0000 Subject: Was Fidelius Charm, Questions about the wizengamot/Crouch Trial/Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90875 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol: > > > >> Another thought. If he'd had a trial, would the chains on that chair > have bound him as they did the Lestranges and Barty Crouch, Jr.? The > seems to sense magically whether a person is guilty or not, rather > like the Sorting Hat seeing into students' minds to determine which > house they belong in based on their thoughts or feelings and memories. > Maybe that's why Crouch, Sr. was so certain that his son was > guilty--because he really was and the behavior of the chair proved it. > If Sirius had sat in that chair and it hadn't bound him, the > Wizengamot might not have needed Priori Incantatem or witnesses or > anything else. The chair would have known that he was innocent and > Crouch would have had to drop the charges--or at least conduct an > investigation, including a cross-examination using good old > veritaserum. Given all the magical methods of accessing a person's > memory magically, from legilmency to Pensieves, there's really no > excuse for sending an innocent witch or wizard to prison. > > Carol LizVega here: What an interesting idea! About the chair being able to distinguish between guilty and innocent suspects! I have two questions: Does anyone remember if it's mentioned that ALL of the people brought in with Bella and Crouch, jr. were magically bound by the chairs? I'm still speculating about the 'man brought in who stared blankly'- I wonder if he wasn't under the Imperius Curse. Also, what if the reason Sirius was never given a trial was because someone in the wizengamot knew he was innocent, and didn't want the chair to reveal this? It's become clear that there are spies in the MOM- Rookwood for one. What if one of Voldemorts supporters, working for the ministry at that time, knew what really happened at the Potter's house that night of James and Lilly's murder. Wasn't Fudge one of the first ones on the scene when Peter blew up the street? What position did Fudge hold at that time? It was magical law enforcement wasn't it? I don't have my book with me...sorry! I've read on other sites that people speculate that Fudge may be the DE that has 'left Voldemort forever'- GOF, graveyard scene. If Fudge was a supporter of LV, and he knew what had happened, he would see to it that Sirius had no way of telling what actually happened. And then, conveniently enough, Fudge was made Minister. Hmmmm..... From mysmacek at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 19:42:48 2004 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:42:48 -0000 Subject: Do we need any more death cases? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90876 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Andrew wrote: > > > > My I draw your thoughts, to a famous childrens book, written many > > years ago, in a less free society. This book, as it happens, is > > named The Hobbit. There is tons of killing in that book, villagers, > > spiders, and main character dwarves. Is it impossible that JKR may > > kill of main charactars, no. > > > A more relevant example may be LOTR, with a full-scale war and a very > high body count. I can recall the death of only one major character > in LOTR (Boromir, of course. Theoden was hardly a major character in > the book, as opposed to the movies), and again with a very good > moral. Unless, of course, you take the end of LOTR as an allegory of death - it's even explicitly said by Gandalf in the movie. Mysmacek From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 19:43:55 2004 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:43:55 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90877 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > What do y'all think Snape's Patronus will look like, if he can make > one? > > Kneasy wrote (#90794): > A wolverine. > Vicious, effective, a loner, but not a coward. > And very definitely not something to mess with. > > Berit replies: > > I'm not sure. I just can't imagine Snape's patronus being anything > that remotely resembles anything dog-like, Actually, wolverines are not related to wolves or dogs. They are the largest members of the weasel family. Here is what it says on the home page of the Wolverine Foundation: "Picture a weasel -- and most of us can do that, for we have met that little demon of destruction, that small atom of insensate courage, that symbol of slaughter, sleeplessness, and tireless, incredible activity -- picture that scrap of demoniac fury, multiply that mite some fifty times, and you have the likeness of a Wolverine." Ernest Thompson Seton, 1953 Now, having said that, is a "little demon of destruction" a good symbol for Snape? Sleepless, tireless, insensate courage, incredible activity .... I can see it. "Scrap of demoniac fury?" Absolutely! Wolverine!Snape. I can handle that! Constance Vigilance Visit the Wolverine Foundation at www.wolverinefoundation.org From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 19:50:46 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:50:46 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90878 Chris wrote: I wonder about the appearance of Loopy Luna in OotP, she plays a major part in the book, and nearly all the previous books major characters have re-appeared in other books, unless they were killed. So other than someone's potential date, I wonder how she will fit into Books 6 & 7. I think the Quibbler may still have a big role to play. Carol: I think her "Lunacy" will prove to be sanity at some point. Maybe she'll teach Hermione to rely a little more on intuition or faith (not religious faith, but belief in something that's not written in a book or present to her senses). Luna sees Thestrals without fearing them and senses the presence of the dead beyond the Veil, so she presents a different perspective on reality from practical, sensible, bookworm, Muggle-born Hermione. Maybe the revelations will start small, like the discovery that (surprise!) Crumple-Horned Snorkacks are as real as dragons or Blast-ended Skrewts. Not that I think she's right about Fudge having an army of heliopaths or ordering goblins cooked into pies, but I do think her peculiar way of seeing things will prove important, as will the rune connection. (Maybe, as I said in another post, she'll point out to Hermione that Harry's scar is an eihwaz rune and send Hermione scurrying to the library.) Or maybe, given the Thestrals and the Veil and the conversation with Harry at the end of OoP, she's somehow connected with the idea of death and Harry's understanding of it. There's also the matter of Luna's Ollivander-like eyes. I wouldn't be surprised if she's his granddaughter on her mother's side. Or could there be a connection between "Loony" Luna and "Loony Loopy Lupin"? Carol From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 19:54:25 2004 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (JuHu) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:54:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040213195425.35498.qmail@web40207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90879 --- hermionekitten9 wrote: > While we are on the subject of Susan Bones, here is > an interesting > fact...Susan is short for Susanna which comes from > the word > Sousanna, the Greek form of the Hebrew name > Shoshannah which was > derived from the Hebrew word shushan which means... > LILY Wow, it's so... oedipal. I'm not sure if this is a fact, but aren't people inherently attracted to those that are somewhat like their parents? I've heard it said, but I'm not yet a disciple of the concept. I'm horrible at psychology, and my only background is from reading Oedipus Rex in freshman Intro to Theatre. So, not much. If there were some similarities, personality-wise, from Susan to Lily it would be interesting how that figured in with the relationship between Harry and Susan. I find myself looking for traits that I think embody my dad (like being optimistic and hard-working) whenever I see potential "soul-mates," if you will. However, Harry knows very little about his mother, save the arbitrary belief that she's Aunt Petunia's opposite. ("Her large, pale eyes (so unlike her sister's) were not narrowed in dislike or anger: They were wide and fearful. . ." ("A Peck of Owls," US p. 38)) So, that begs the question if this tendency is a result of upbringing or instinct, and weather or not Harry will be attracted to qualities his mother possessed. Now I've strayed into the Nature vs. Nurture debate, after I swore I'd never open a psychology textbook again... JuHu, pleased to discover she didn't make up the word "oedipal" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 20:14:01 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:14:01 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90880 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > I was rereading OoP last night and realized that the teacher giving > the DADA exam to Severus and MWPP in "Snape's Worst Memory" was > Professor Flitwick! If he was the DADA professor twenty-one years > earlier, why is he teaching Charms now? I can't say how OWLs were handled back then, but when Harry's year took them, they were given by members of the Wizarding Examinations Authority (Prof. Marchbanks, Prof. Tofty, etc.), not by their professors. So if the system was the same in the Marauders' day, then Prof. Flitwick was not a teacher a Hogwarts then at all! Annemehr From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 20:19:17 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:19:17 -0000 Subject: Dark SHIPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90881 > Mandy: > Draco, who will take over his father's empire. Be the richest, best > looking and most desirably eligible bachelor in the world. Marry > some fabulously beautiful but vapid model, who will spend all his > money with glee. They both will be very happy. Carol: One problem. The only girl who seems to be attracted to him is pug-faced Pansy Parkinson. He'd only marry a Slytherin pure-blood and we haven't seen any pretty ones yet (thanks partly to Harry's POV, I admit). If Bella had had a daughter, Draco's pure-blood second cousin once removed if I have my generations right, he'd have had the perfect mate. But I don't think Draco's going to survive to adulthood. Another pureblood family removed from the gene pool. . . Mandy again: > Fred and George will marry a pair of twins, have 12 kids between > them Carol: How about Parvati (for Fred) and Padma (for George)? And why not twelve kids each, to make up for not getting twelve OWLs like Percy? BTW, Draco says somewhere that *all* the Weasleys have red hair and too many children. Where are all those other Weasleys? Carol, who would like to see Harry become Minister of Magic, live a long life, and have twelve children as Sybill Trelawney predicted on OoP From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Fri Feb 13 20:41:15 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:41:15 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" > wrote: > > > I personally, would like to see Voldy!Salazar use Bellatrix to draw > Harry in. She is one of only two Death > > Eaters left, and she holds Harry in the palm of her hand with > > Sirius' death. > > Annemehr: > > I have no quibbles with most of Mandy's post, but I'm sure that LV has > more than two DEs left after the MoM battle. I did a post on it, > #85064, where I lay out all the reasoning, but the conclusion I drew > was that there are more than six at large. How many more than six > there are depends on how many DEs Voldemort passed in silence in the > GoF graveyard without naming: > > "[Voldemort] walked on. Some of the Death Eaters he passed in > silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them." (GoF, ch. 33) > > I figure it's a pretty safe bet there are at least ten DEs still at > large (and I agree with Draco that the others won't stay in Azkaban > for long). > Now Sawsan: I think that there are more DE's at large, but since the Dementors are working for Lord Thingy, I don't expect the captured ones to be in the wizard "slammer" for that long. Even Draco says that he expects his dad to be out soon at the end of OotP and Harry, I think, replies something along the lines of being able to slip past him (Lucius) again. Sawsan From tim at marvinhold.com Fri Feb 13 20:46:56 2004 From: tim at marvinhold.com (Tim) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:46:56 -0000 Subject: DA dynamics (was Re: Susan Bones ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90883 "nkafkafi" wrote: > Nery now: > Yep, I agree, and for an additional reason: we won't have Gred and > Forge in Hogwarts next book < sob>. > Neri Tim now: Maybe not in Hogwarts but I expect them to be around. As others have noted, JKR has shown us that the twins are accomplished wizards through out the series. In book 5 she had Hermione reforcing this by commenting on how clever their .... Topless Hats(?), don't have book handy, can't look it up... were. Their fireworks and portable swaps speak for themselves. The twins pick locks, fly cars, are accomplished broomriders, tough enought to be Beaters, and now successful business men, with connections to the WW underworld (smugglers primarily i believe). They are one of the guns on JRK's mantle piece. I fully expect them to be fired by book 7 and not forgotten in book 6. Tim From LapHuntress at comcast.net Fri Feb 13 20:52:44 2004 From: LapHuntress at comcast.net (Eleri Hamilton) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:52:44 -0800 Subject: getting wands back In-Reply-To: <1076649310.4823.64483.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <402CC89C.2403.E940C4@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 90884 Carol wrote: > how Sirius got his > wand back. (He used Snape's in PoA.) I've wondered this too... I'm suspecting that once he was cleared in Dumbldores mind, that Dumbledore could have had a word with Mr. Ollivander, and arranged a late-night trip to the store for a new wand. Hmm. I wonder if Hagrid could get a new wand that way, officially. He has been cleared of being responsible for the CoS death 50 years ago. And what would happen if someone who's wand had been broken as a diciplinary action tried to buy a new wand at Ollivander's (or any other wand shop, there can't be only one!). Would wands refuse to work? Would alarms go off? Eleri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 20:59:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:59:52 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90885 Annemehr: I have no quibbles with most of Mandy's post, but I'm sure that LV has more than two DEs left after the MoM battle. I did a post on it, #85064, where I lay out all the reasoning, but the conclusion I drew was that there are more than six at large. How many more than six there are depends on how many DEs Voldemort passed in silence in the GoF graveyard without naming: "[Voldemort] walked on. Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them." (GoF, ch. 33) I figure it's a pretty safe bet there are at least ten DEs still at large (and I agree with Draco that the others won't stay in Azkaban for long). Carol responds: I would think that to except for a remark by Harry in OoP (I can't remember where, but it might be in relation to the first DA meeting or the Quibbler article) stating that the saw "about a dozen Death Eaters" in the graveyard. He identifies six of these in GoF (Malfoy, MacNair, Avery, Nott, Crabbe,and Goyle). Wormtail, of course, is also present. The cowardly Karkaroff is absent, as is the ex-DE, Snape. Three have died in LV's service (Rosier, Wilkes, and ???). That would leave about five unnamed Death Eaters, if Harry's "dozen" is correct. Ten more are in Azkaban at that time but escape later: The three Lestranges, Rookwood, Antonin Dolohov, perhaps Jugson and Mulciber,and three more who apparently are never named. Of the ten escapees, six are back in prison. Bellatrix and the three unnamed DEs not present in the DoM remain free. Of the six formerly free Death Eaters Harry named, Malfoy, Avery, MacNair, Nott, and Crabbe are also in Azkaban. Only Goyle remains free (unless he was at the DoM but wasn't named). By my count, that leaves Bellatrix, Goyle, Wormtail, three Azkaban escapees and about five unnamed DEs from the graveyard still at large--a total of eleven. Yet at one point in GoF (I think it's when Mad-Eye Moody shows Harry the photograph of the original order), someone (Mad-Eye or Sirius?) tells Harry that the old Order of about twenty people was outnumbered twenty to one--meaning that there were originally about 400 Death Eaters. Maybe this is a Flint, like the mismatched numbers of students at Hogwarts in various scenes, but if not, where are all the Death Eaters now? Three dead, two AWOL, eleven still with LV, and another in Azkaban as of the end of OoP. That's twenty-seven of the original 400. Malke that 28 counting Regulus, murdered by his fellow DEs for wanting out. What happened to all the others? Carol, who apologizes for not having time to read Annemehr's earlier post or look up the quotes From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 21:09:39 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:09:39 -0000 Subject: Filk : Quirrell Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90886 "Quirrell" is based on the song "Windy" by the Association. I could have sworn that it was called "Wendy" but, according to the lyrics site, it's Windy. Live and learn, Dedicated to Constance Vigilance. (wonder why :P) Who's hanging out at the Leaky Cauldron Stuttering "P P Potter, so pleased" Who's just announced "A troll's in the dungeon!" Everyone knows it's Quirrell. Who's tete-a-tete with Snape was suspicious, Giving a herring, red as can be? Who wants the Stone for You-Know-Who's wishes? Everyone knows it's Quirrell. And Quirrell wears on his head An entity almost dead Who judges by how you're bred. It's the Dark Lord (it's the Dark Lord) It's the Dark Lord. (flute break) And Quirrell wears on his head An entity almost dead Who judges by how you're bred. It's the Dark Lord (it's the Dark Lord) It's the Dark Lord. (optional last verse for HPfGU folk) Who's got the listees thinking and pondering Is he quite dead or an escapee? Is he Norwegian, some folk are wondering- What will we learn of Quirrell? Ginger, who thinks Quirrell is dead as a doornail, possibly a Norwegian, and definately a snappy dresser. From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 21:14:32 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:14:32 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90887 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Annemehr: > > I have no quibbles with most of Mandy's post, but I'm sure that LV has > more than two DEs left after the MoM battle. I did a post on it, > #85064, where I lay out all the reasoning, but the conclusion I drew > was that there are more than six at large. How many more than six > there are depends on how many DEs Voldemort passed in silence in the > GoF graveyard without naming: > "[Voldemort] walked on. Some of the Death Eaters he passed in > silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them." (GoF, ch. 33) > I figure it's a pretty safe bet there are at least ten DEs still at > large (and I agree with Draco that the others won't stay in Azkaban > for long). > > Carol responds: > I would think that to except for a remark by Harry in OoP (I can't > remember where, but it might be in relation to the first DA meeting or > the Quibbler article) stating that the saw "about a dozen Death > Eaters" in the graveyard. He identifies six of these in GoF (Malfoy, > MacNair, Avery, Nott, Crabbe,and Goyle). Wormtail, of course, is also > present. The cowardly Karkaroff is absent, as is the ex-DE, Snape. > Three have died in LV's service (Rosier, Wilkes, and ???). That would > leave about five unnamed Death Eaters, if Harry's "dozen" is correct. > Ten more are in Azkaban at that time but escape later: The three > Lestranges, Rookwood, Antonin Dolohov, perhaps Jugson and Mulciber,and > three more who apparently are never named. Of the ten escapees, six > are back in prison. Bellatrix and the three unnamed DEs not present in > the DoM remain free. Of the six formerly free Death Eaters Harry > named, Malfoy, Avery, MacNair, Nott, and Crabbe are also in Azkaban. > Only Goyle remains free (unless he was at the DoM but wasn't named). > By my count, that leaves Bellatrix, Goyle, Wormtail, three Azkaban > escapees and about five unnamed DEs from the graveyard still at > large--a total of eleven. > > Yet at one point in GoF (I think it's when Mad-Eye Moody shows Harry > the photograph of the original order), someone (Mad-Eye or Sirius?) > tells Harry that the old Order of about twenty people was outnumbered > twenty to one--meaning that there were originally about 400 Death > Eaters. Maybe this is a Flint, like the mismatched numbers of students > at Hogwarts in various scenes, but if not, where are all the Death > Eaters now? Three dead, two AWOL, eleven still with LV, and another in > Azkaban as of the end of OoP. That's twenty-seven of the original 400. > Malke that 28 counting Regulus, murdered by his fellow DEs for wanting > out. What happened to all the others? > > Carol, who apologizes for not having time to read Annemehr's earlier > post or look up the quotes LizVega here: I could be wrong, which wouldn't be a first, but was Moody/Sirius? refering to DE's, specifically, when he said the order was outnumbered 20-1? There may be a significant difference between Death Eaters, and lesser followers of LV. Perhaps the reference to being outnumbered was to illustrate just how many people were under his control at that time. That could mean that the 400 or so followers were DE's, people like Wormtail who working as Double Agents, people under the imperious curse, dark creatures like dementors and giants, etc. I just can't see there being 400 DE's- and only seeing a fraction of that number in the graveyard in GOF. LizVega....who's having some serious qualms about Fred and George at the moment. From CoyotesChild at charter.net Fri Feb 13 21:12:39 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:12:39 -0600 Subject: Dark SHIPS [HPforGrownups] ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c3f276$2a567e00$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 90888 > > Sawsan here: > > Wow! This is an interesting view of things. I've taken the old timey > route I suppose and got married just shy of 18. I'm twenty-four now > and I have been married for a while. You gave me a lot of hope for the > rest of my life eh??? ( I suppose I am in Harry's age group > considering I was born in 1980). Iggy here: *chuckle* I got married when I was 31, and I was more in Charlie's age group (I assume, since I was born in 1970). > Sawsan here: > > Okay, so they will pretty much all grow up to be miserable old farts > and nags. At least they had some fun sometime somewhere?!!! Iggy here: Hey now... The Dursleys, Pettigrew, and Hagrid's family all ended up pretty well. And, their financial situation aside (which I wasn't the one to come up with...) the Weasley twins end up in a reasonable, albeit rather interesting, situation in life. (It's their kid's I'm a little concerned about...) The Hermione one was a bit of a joke, really... since she and Trelawny are both extreme "know-it-all's", but of a different sort for each. (One "sees all and knows all", the other reads it all.) I just couldn't see them lasting for long. Besides, you know that at least one same sex pairing is likely to come out of the books somewhere. (I actually think it's more likely to be Lavender and her friend Pavarti. ) > Sawsan here: > > I just hope that if Lord Thingy doesn't die that he will be picking up > soap somewhere in a more advanced wizarding prison. Iggy here: Ya know, I can't imagine that there's a single inmate out there who would be desperate enough to shower with Voldie, especially not as he look now. Iggy McSnurd From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 21:18:36 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:18:36 -0000 Subject: DA dynamics (was Re: Susan Bones ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90889 > > Nery wrote: > > Yep, I agree, and for an additional reason: we won't have Gred and > > Forge in Hogwarts next book < sob>. > > > Neri > > Tim now: > > Maybe not in Hogwarts but I expect them to be around. As others have noted, JKR has > shown us that the twins are accomplished wizards through out the series. In book 5 she > had Hermione reforcing this by commenting on how clever their .... Topless Hats(?), don't > have book handy, can't look it up... were. Their fireworks and portable swaps speak for > themselves. The twins pick locks, fly cars, are accomplished broomriders, tough enought > to be Beaters, and now successful business men, with connections to the WW underworld > (smugglers primarily i believe). They are one of the guns on JRK's mantle piece. I fully > expect them to be fired by book 7 and not forgotten in book 6. > Neri again: Yes, I'm sure the twins will instrumental in next books. I think I even know what role they are going to play in the war. Under the disguise of producing joke stuff, the "Weasley Wizarding Weezies" will be secretly inventing and manufacturing special magical weapons for the Order. Think Q in the James Bond movies, then add the magic factor and a good dose of JKR's sarcastic humor. I almost feel sorry for the DEs who will be the targets. Neri From CoyotesChild at charter.net Fri Feb 13 21:17:26 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:17:26 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801c3f276$d3a34060$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 90890 > > Ideas, anybody? > > Carol > Iggy here: I actually believe that, since JKR has stated that Harry won't be a teacher, that Lupin will be vindicated and hired on as the permanent DADA teacher at the end of the series. Just one (Lupin) fan's opinion... Iggy McSnurd From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 21:27:27 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:27:27 -0000 Subject: Dark SHIPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90891 > Carol:(replying to Mandy) > One problem. The only girl who seems to be attracted to him is > pug-faced Pansy Parkinson. He'd only marry a Slytherin pure-blood and > we haven't seen any pretty ones yet (thanks partly to Harry's POV, I > admit). If Bella had had a daughter, Draco's pure-blood second cousin > once removed if I have my generations right, he'd have had the perfect > mate. But I don't think Draco's going to survive to adulthood. Another > pureblood family removed from the gene pool. . . Ginger: Actually, since Bella is Narcissa's sister, that would make Bella's daughter Draco's first cousin. (Don't go EEEEEW on me, I come from a long line of first cousins) Unfortunately, if Bella would have had a daughter, I'm sure the kid would have ended up with the Malfoys when Bella and Rudy went to Azkaban, in which case, we'd have heard of her by now. I am sure they wouldn't have left her with the Tonks family, and there don't seem to be any other close relatives. Any daughters she may produce at this point would be too young to ship with Draco until well after that books are over and done. Back to the drawing board. (Or drawling bored for the non-shippers) OOOH, unless she was adopted by the Bulstrodes! Ginger, who just can't ship for Draco, the little twit. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 21:28:50 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:28:50 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: <006701c3f269$2120ee40$ae321c40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90892 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Saitaina" wrote: > Carol wrote: > > something happened to the > real DADA teacher during Severus' fifth year > and Flitwick was filling > in for him or her during OWLs--rather like > Professor Grubbly-Plank > filling in for Hagrid. (Really, she ought to > be given the job > permanently, but that's a topic for another > post.)> > Saitaina: > Flitwick also could have wished to move into > another field of study. Many tears I know > have switched courses over the years, some > they just took originally to get a job and > later switched to something that was their > true passion. Those with duel (or more) > expertise can easily switch between them as > the job market calls for. A history teacher > who is fluent in a foreign language can take > on both roles as needed for a job, perhaps > the same is true for Flitwick. Carol: But that still doesn't explain why DD doesn't ask Flitwick to switch back to his original job to eliminate the yearly and often disastrous search for a new DADA teacher. As I said, it would be a lot easier to find a qualified Charms teacher to replace Flitwick than yet another candidate for the ostensibly jinxed DADA position. Why hire Lockhart or Mad Eye or even Lupin if you already have Flitwick? (Umbridge wouldn't have been there, either, if DD hadn't supposedly been unable to find a new teacher.) And for that matter, why not put Flitwick in the DADA job when Snape first applied for it and was given Potions instead? He'd hardly keep applying for the DADA post every year if it were competently filled by his own former professor. Not to get sidetracked here, but I also wonder when and why Quirrell was first hired. Was it at the same time as Snape? I get the idea that he's at least a few years younger than Snape and that someone else held the job before him, but if so it couldn't have been Flitwick if there was a DADA vacancy at the time Snape was hired. Carol From rmm7e at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 21:34:33 2004 From: rmm7e at yahoo.com (Regina) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:34:33 -0000 Subject: Determining innocence, was Re: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Given all the magical methods of accessing a person's > memory magically, from legilmency to Pensieves, there's really no > excuse for sending an innocent witch or wizard to prison. I was thinking about this just this morning (I have a long commute, heh heh). Why do innocent wizards get sent to prison? Why aren't those magical methods of determining innocence used? It must be seen as unethical, just as we muggles wouldn't be sticking every alleged criminal with sodium whatever-it-is. We don't use evidence against a person if it's obtained illegally, either, even if it means the person will get away with a crime. Anyone have a discourse about this to share? --Regina From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 21:58:16 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:58:16 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > > Now Sawsan: > I think that there are more DE's at large, but since the Dementors are > working for Lord Thingy, I don't expect the captured ones to be in the > wizard "slammer" for that long. Even Draco says that he expects his > dad to be out soon at the end of OotP and Harry, I think, replies > something along the lines of being able to slip past him (Lucius) again. > > Sawsan bboy_mn: In 'Goblet of Fire', Chapter 34 - 'Prior Incantatem'; Am Ed HB pg 660, Harry "...was surrounded by Death Eaters, outnumbered by at least THIRTY to one". I think at best we could probably name a dozen DE's, so there are substantially more than we have been formally introduced to. I will ammend this by saying that the number 30 in the above quote should probably not be taken as 30.0000, I think Harry is making a summary assessment of his situation, rather than pausing to make an exact count. So, '...at least thirty...' probably means anywhere from 25 to 40 DE's. That actual number isn't as critical to this discussion as it is an indicator that there are a significant number for formal branded DE's that we haven't been introduced to. I think of the dozen or so we know of, a substantial portion were only introduce as DE's in OoP, of those, a few like McNair had been introduced as characters, but not as confirmed DE's. As to the senior Mr. Lucius Malfoy, I think he will stay in Jail for a while. I suspect he won't get out until near the end of book 6 or the beginning of book 7; pure intuitive speculation, of course. I think part of the conflict in the next book will more strongly feature Draco and Harry; brought on in part by the absents of dear old dad. In book 6, Draco will probably play the role of the central antagonist much the way Umbridge played it in book 5. He seems about due for some character development. This fits in with my theory that the theme of House Unity will be played out in DA Club in the next book. Side note: does anyone think there is even a remote chance of the next book coming out in 2004? Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From SuzChiles at pobox.com Fri Feb 13 22:01:50 2004 From: SuzChiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:01:50 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90895 JustCarol said: > > I was rereading OoP last night and realized that the teacher giving > the DADA exam to Severus and MWPP in "Snape's Worst Memory" was > Professor Flitwick! If he was the DADA professor twenty-one years > earlier, why is he teaching Charms now? Granted, he seems much more > suited to teach Charms than DADA, but still, why the annual search for > a DADA professor (setting aside the possibility that Snape could teach > it) when Flitwick is still available? Why not give the position back > to Flitwick and find another qualified Charms teacher? That would > almost certainly be easier than finding a good DADA teacher (other > than Lupin), which seems to be nearly impossible. > > The only explanation I can think of is that something happened to the > real DADA teacher during Severus' fifth year and Flitwick was filling > in for him or her during OWLs--rather like Professor Grubbly-Plank > filling in for Hagrid. (Really, she ought to be given the job > permanently, but that's a topic for another post.) Given that it was the OWLs test, I had supposed that Flitwick was there as a procter for the test, and not as the professor for that area. After all, in Harry's OWL tests, I don't believe that any of his professors were present. Suzanne From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 22:12:12 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:12:12 -0000 Subject: Was Fidelius Charm, Questions about the wizengamot/Crouch Trial/Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > wrote: > > Carol: > > > > > >> Another thought. If he'd had a trial, would the chains on > > that chair have bound him as they did the Lestranges and Barty > > Crouch, Jr.? > > The seems to sense magically whether a person is guilty or not, > > Carol > > LizVega here: > > What an interesting idea! About the chair being able to distinguish > between guilty and innocent suspects! ....edited... > > Also, what if the reason Sirius was never given a trial was because > someone in the wizengamot knew he was innocent, and didn't want the > chair to reveal this? ...edited... > > ...edited... > > LizVega bboy_mn: We can only speculate but wouldn't it be more likely that the Chair detected the likelihood of the person seated in it to Flee. I do see a minor weakness in this theory in that virtually every person who sat in the chair, in deep trouble and facing the highest court in the land, would have a strong urge to flee. However, the Chair may be able to make a distinction between a person that has a genuine desire to escape the chair, the room, and justice, and a person who simply, though desperately, wants to be out of the room; a distinction between nervous apprehension, and a true desire, and in all likelihood, intent to escape. Also, the the chair may make a distinction between Criminals who have been convicted by the court, and those who haven't. I speculate, once again, that the Lestrange/Crouch hearing may have been a sentencing hearing, they had already been found quilty; whereas, the Bagman hearing, because there was a vote by the jury, may have been to determine quilt or innocents. Admittedly, this particular speculation has a bit of grey area. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 22:16:07 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:16:07 -0000 Subject: Was Fidelius Charm, Questions about the wizengamot/Crouch Trial/Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90897 Carol: Another thought. If he'd had a trial, would the chains on that chair have bound him as they did the Lestranges and Barty Crouch, Jr.? The chair seems to sense magically whether a person is guilty or not, rather like the Sorting Hat seeing into students' minds to determine which house they belong in based on their thoughts or feelings and memories. Maybe that's why Crouch, Sr. was so certain that his son was guilty--because he really was and the behavior of the chair proved it. If Sirius had sat in that chair and it hadn't bound him, the Wizengamot might not have needed Priori Incantatem or witnesses or anything else. The chair would have known that he was innocent and Crouch would have had to drop the charges--or at least conduct an investigation, including a cross-examination using good old veritaserum. Given all the magical methods of accessing a person's memory magically, from legilmency to Pensieves, there's really no excuse for sending an innocent witch or wizard to prison. LizVega: > > What an interesting idea! About the chair being able to distinguish > between guilty and innocent suspects! I have two questions: Does > anyone remember if it's mentioned that ALL of the people brought in > with Bella and Crouch, jr. were magically bound by the chairs? I'm > still speculating about the 'man brought in who stared blankly'- I > wonder if he wasn't under the Imperius Curse. Carol: That man was one of the Lestranges, either Bellatrix's husband, Rodolphus, or his brother, Rabastan. I'm not sure why I think it's Rabastan, but in any case, there's no question of his guilt. He escapes from Azkaban and participates in the DoM raid along with his sister-in-law and brother. Sirius identifies him in somewhere in OoP, (I can find the page reference if you want it), and Lucius Malfoy calls both Rodolphus and Rabastan by their first names in the DoM scene, probably to distinguish them from one another. As for the chains, they bind Karkaroff (GoF Am. ed. 587) and they clink ominously as Ludo Bagman sits down but don't bind him (GoF 591-92) Oddly, the scene of the Lestrange/Crouch trial is so vaguely depicted that it's hard to tell whether the chains bind the prisoners or not. They're led to "the chairs with chained arms," but it appears to be the chairs, not the prisoners, whose "arms" are chained, and Bellatrix "sits in the chained chair as if it were a throne," but there's no indication that she herself is chained (594). The adults stand up when they're sentenced, which again seems to suggest that they're not chained (or maybe the chains fall away?)(595). Yet there's a clear reference on the same page to "the boy in chains," which indicates the opposite--that he, at least, is chained--and if the boy is chained, wouldn't the older prisoners be chained as well, especially given the heinous crime they're charged with? Maybe at that point, since this is the last of the trial scenes, JKR just expects us to understand that the prisoners chained. Bellatrix's guilt is obvious in the scene; the boy's isn't. But we find out from his subsequent conduct as Crouch!Moody that he was indeed a die-hard Death Eater, and it seems that the chair knew that. If so, all his screaming and pleading would have been for nothing if the jury knew it, too, based on earlier testimony and the action of the chair. Anyway, even if I'm wrong about the chained chairs sensing guilt rather than being at the command of the judge to bind or not bind the prisoner, I still think that with Priori Incantatem, veritaserum, Legilimency, and Pensieves, the WW should be able to establish guilt or innocence a lot more accurately and efficiently than they evidently do. Carol, who wishes the Lestrange/Crouch trial weren't so ambigously depicted From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 22:32:51 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:32:51 -0000 Subject: getting wands back - Nitpick Hagrid In-Reply-To: <402CC89C.2403.E940C4@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90898 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eleri Hamilton" wrote: > Carol wrote: > > > how Sirius got his > > wand back. (He used Snape's in PoA.) > > I've wondered this too... I'm suspecting that once he was cleared in > Dumbldores mind, that Dumbledore could have had a word with Mr. > Ollivander, and arranged a late-night trip to the store for a new > wand. > > Hmm. I wonder if Hagrid could get a new wand that way, officially. > He has been cleared of being responsible for the CoS death 50 > years ago. > > ...edited... > > Eleri bboy_mn: Pardon me while I pick a little nit. People now know that Hagrid wasn't involved in any of the problems 50 years ago, or in the more recent Chamber of Secrets troubles. Harry pretty much proved this, when he resolved things in CoS. But there is a difference between people knowing Hagrid wasn't involved and his name having been formally cleared. Even in the current book (OotP) Hargid mentions that strictly speaking he is not suppose to do magic. I speculate that the reason he, strictly speaking, isn't suppose to do magic is because there has been no formal hearing to reverse the decision of his original trial. As far as his expulsion, I think the headmaster and Board of Governors can fix that, but there seems to be a criminal record too. Until the Ministry holds a formal hearing and officially reverses Hagrid's status there will always be a cloud hanging over him. Personally, I wish they would do it and get it over with, even if it is done 'off page'. There is, afterall, a war on and we need every able soldier armed and ready.. In PoA and CoS, Sirius is on the run and living on his own, and I'm pretty sure in both cases, he didn't have a wand. Now that he is living in his ancestral home, he has a wand again. So, I find it very easy to make a connection between being home and having a wand. I speculate, as I so often do, that he is using a wand he found at home; his brother's, mother's, father's etc.... Probably not a prefect match, but using the wand of a family member (or 3) would give a better match than a random wand. Just a thought. bboy_mn From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 22:33:27 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:33:27 -0000 Subject: Determining innocence, was Re: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90899 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Regina" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > wrote: > > > Given all the magical methods of accessing a person's > > memory magically, from legilmency to Pensieves, there's really no > > excuse for sending an innocent witch or wizard to prison. > > I was thinking about this just this morning (I have a long commute, > heh heh). Why do innocent wizards get sent to prison? Why aren't > those magical methods of determining innocence used? > > It must be seen as unethical, just as we muggles wouldn't be > sticking every alleged criminal with sodium whatever-it-is. We don't > use evidence against a person if it's obtained illegally, either, > even if it means the person will get away with a crime. > > Anyone have a discourse about this to share? > --Regina LizVega writes: I'm not sure if using the Priori Incantation would be seen as unethical, Mr. Diggory didn't hesitate to check Harry's wand at the World Cup in GOF. As far as Veritaserum, I can think of three instances where it's mentioned and/or used: Snape tells Harry that he's going to use it on him in GOF- right before Collin interrupts the class to take Harry for the wand weighing thing. Later in GOF- DD uses it on Crouch, jr. In OOP- Delores gives Harry fake veritaserum, and then jumps down Snape's throat when he tells her he doesn't have anymore later. So, Snape wanted to use it to see if Harry had broken into his office, Dumbledore did use it on Crouch, jr. to find out exactly how he came to be at Hogwarts. And, Delores wanted to use it on Harry to find out where Dumbledore and Sirius were. Two of the three had less than moral motives, but Dumbledore, the only one who actually uses it on anyone in the series, has ethical motives. > It would seem that if a wizard really wanted to know something, and the information was accessible through another person, there should be no reason why that wizard wouldn't be able to obtain the info. Between Priori Incantem, veritaserum, and legilimens, it seems logical that no innocent person should be sent to Azkaban. But some were, and that makes me believe that either they weren't given the opportunity for a fair trial, like Sirius, or someone/ones didn't want certain people cleared. Also, some people, like Lucius Malfoy, were obviously given the chance to defend themselves. Hmmm....does gold buy a get-out-of-jail-free-card? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 22:35:29 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:35:29 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90900 Carol wrote: > > I was rereading OoP last night and realized that the teacher giving > > the DADA exam to Severus and MWPP in "Snape's Worst Memory" was > > Professor Flitwick! If he was the DADA professor twenty-one years > > earlier, why is he teaching Charms now? > Annemehr: > I can't say how OWLs were handled back then, but when Harry's year > took them, they were given by members of the Wizarding Examinations > Authority (Prof. Marchbanks, Prof. Tofty, etc.), not by their > professors. So if the system was the same in the Marauders' day, then > Prof. Flitwick was not a teacher a Hogwarts then at all! Carol: That answers part of my question perfectly. Thanks, Annemehr. I'd forgotten about the OWLs being conducted by outsiders. But still, Flitwick administering the DADA OWL instead of the Charms exam? If he's qualified to do that, he's certainly qualified to teach the subject. So why doesn't Dumbledore just hire him as DADA instructor once and for all and let someone else teach Charms? If the position was open when Snape first applied for it and Flitwick was a member of the Wizarding Exams Authority, why didn't DD just ask Flitwick to teach it then? No Quirrell, no "jinx," no jealousy on Snape's part of the DADA professor. It would have been the perfect solution. (Unless you count the need for a different DADA instructor each year as a plot requirement, but that doesn't answer my questions.) Carol From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 22:39:54 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:39:54 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" > wrote: > > > > > Now Sawsan: > > I think that there are more DE's at large, but since the Dementors are > > working for Lord Thingy, I don't expect the captured ones to be in the > > wizard "slammer" for that long. Even Draco says that he expects his > > dad to be out soon at the end of OotP and Harry, I think, replies > > something along the lines of being able to slip past him (Lucius) > again. > > > > Sawsan > > bboy_mn: > > In 'Goblet of Fire', Chapter 34 - 'Prior Incantatem'; Am Ed HB pg 660, > Harry "...was surrounded by Death Eaters, outnumbered by at least > THIRTY to one". > > I think at best we could probably name a dozen DE's, so there are > substantially more than we have been formally introduced to. > > I will ammend this by saying that the number 30 in the above quote > should probably not be taken as 30.0000, I think Harry is making a > summary assessment of his situation, rather than pausing to make an > exact count. So, '...at least thirty...' probably means anywhere from > 25 to 40 DE's. > > That actual number isn't as critical to this discussion as it is an > indicator that there are a significant number for formal branded DE's > that we haven't been introduced to. I think of the dozen or so we know > of, a substantial portion were only introduce as DE's in OoP, of > those, a few like McNair had been introduced as characters, but not as > confirmed DE's. > > As to the senior Mr. Lucius Malfoy, I think he will stay in Jail for a > while. I suspect he won't get out until near the end of book 6 or the > beginning of book 7; pure intuitive speculation, of course. > > I think part of the conflict in the next book will more strongly > feature Draco and Harry; brought on in part by the absents of dear old > dad. In book 6, Draco will probably play the role of the central > antagonist much the way Umbridge played it in book 5. He seems about > due for some character development. This fits in with my theory that > the theme of House Unity will be played out in DA Club in the next book. > > Side note: does anyone think there is even a remote chance of the next > book coming out in 2004? > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn LizVega here: I don't think there's a chance in he*ll of the book coming out in 2004. We're usually given the release date six months beforehand- I believe. But, actually, I don't want the next book to come out too soon- I mean, of course I want it to come out as soon as possible- but I want Jo to make this one even longer than OOP- and based on her comments about previous books- she claimed that OOP wouldn't be as long as GOF and it was nearly a third longer- I think it will. I think she's going to have a hard time letting go and she'll just keep writing- at least i hope so, anyway! But, really if the book came out this year that would mean that she only spent a year working on it- which she said herself is a really short amount of time to produce these books. I'm hoping for more background info. in the next one. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 22:50:06 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:50:06 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: <000801c3f276$d3a34060$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90902 > > Ideas, anybody? > > > > Carol > > > > Iggy: > > I actually believe that, since JKR has stated that Harry won't be a > teacher, that Lupin will be vindicated and hired on as the permanent > DADA teacher at the end of the series. > Carol: Well, okay, but my question is: If Flitwick is qualified to teach DADA, and he must be, given that he conducted the DADA OWL in Snape's fifth year, why doesn't DD just hire him for that position and get someone else to teach Charms? (He can't rehire Lupin now, but moving Flitwick to DADA would solve all the problems with that position.) Carol, who wants Snape to get the DADA position as *his* reward for redemption and service to DD and rather expects Lupin to be one of the beloved characters we're expected to mourn in Book 7 From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 23:42:46 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 23:42:46 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90903 > bboy_mn: > In 'Goblet of Fire', Chapter 34 - 'Prior Incantatem'; Am Ed HB pg 660, > Harry "...was surrounded by Death Eaters, outnumbered by at least > THIRTY to one". > Carol: But as I noted in another post, Harry reduces that number to a dozen in OoP. I can't find the quote, but maybe someone else can help me. OoP's a long book! > I think at best we could probably name a dozen DE's, so there are > substantially more than we have been formally introduced to. Carol: I named about 23 in a previous post, counting two dead, one fled, and one "who will not return." Another one, Travers (who killed the McKinnons) is mentioned in "The Pensieve" in GoF. I'm guessing that he's one of the Azkaban escapees (absent from the graveyard scene, of course, but also absent from the DoM raid, so he's one of those who's still at large, along with Bellatrix, Goyle, Wormtail, and about eight others, by my calculation). b-boy: I think of the dozen or so we know of, a substantial portion were only introduce as DE's in OoP, of those, a few like McNair had been introduced as characters, but not as confirmed DE's. Carol: We do know that MacNair is a Death Eater. He's at the graveyard, he's sent as an envoy to the giants by LV, and he's in the DoM raid with Malfoy and the Azkaban escapees. (Also Avery, who wasn't in Azkaban but is now.) For anyone who's interested, I found the reference that identifies Rabastan and Rodolphus Lestrange as the two men Harry sees in the Pensieve along with Bellatrix and Barty Crouch, Jr. It's in OoP, Am. ed., 114. I'm still looking for the one about the Order members being outnumbered twenty to one by DEs. If anyone finds it, please post. Carol, who has a completely unrelated question: What the heck does Tonks mean by "Wotcher"? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 00:22:57 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 00:22:57 -0000 Subject: Sirius' and Lily's wands (Was: getting wands back ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90904 Carol: [I've wondered]how Sirius got his wand back. (He used Snape's in PoA.) Eleri: I've wondered this too... I'm suspecting that once he was cleared in Dumbldores mind, that Dumbledore could have had a word with Mr. Ollivander, and arranged a late-night trip to the store for a new wand. bboy_mn: In PoA and CoS, Sirius is on the run and living on his own, and I'm pretty sure in both cases, he didn't have a wand. Now that he is living in his ancestral home, he has a wand again. So, I find it very easy to make a connection between being home and having a wand. I speculate, as I so often do, that he is using a wand he found at home; his brother's, mother's, father's etc.... Probably not a prefect match, but using the wand of a family member (or 3) would give a better match than a random wand. Carol: Good suggestion. There's also another possibility. In SS/PS, Ollivander remembers Harry's mother coming to his shop to buy her *first* wand--a "nice wand for charm work" that was not as powerful as James's, which was "excellent for transfiguration" (Am. ed. 82). Maybe Sirius also had more than one wand. He may have found that the one that chose him at age eleven was not strong enough for the advanced kind of transgiguration he was attempting at age fourteen or fifteen. If so, he could have found his own old wand at home and used it in place of the one that was taken from him and presumably destroyed when he was sent to Azkaban. But the description of Lily's wand brings up another point. If she bought a "first" wand, doesn't that imply a second wand as well? The description of the first wand strongly suggests that she *did* have an aptitude for charm work, and the swishy little willow wand was perfect for her as an eleven-year-old Muggle-born just discovering this gift, but Ollivander states quite directly that it wasn't as powerful as James's. (He, being a pureblood, would already know about magic and would know what to do with a wand. The wand sensed the talent for transfiguration taht would lead him to become an animagus, even if James himself wasn't already aware of it.) At some point, Lily appears to have outgrown this wand, presumably because it wasn't sufficiently powerful, and to have bought another one more suitable to the level of magic she could perform at that point. Maybe she needed a more powerful wand to fight against Voldemort. Or maybe, just maybe, she wanted to put a defensive charm on her little son. At any rate, just as Ollivander's remark that James's wand was "excellent for transfiguration" foreshadows his ability to transform into an animagus. It would be strange indeed if "nice wand for charm work" didn't foreshadow an equally impressive gift for charms in Lily. Carol From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sat Feb 14 00:47:38 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:47:38 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) References: Message-ID: <004101c3f294$25872000$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90905 Carol, who has a completely unrelated question: What the heck does Tonks mean by "Wotcher?" {Anne} I think, maybe it's a variant of our own American slang--"Whatchadoing?" IE What (how) are you doing?" Just a guess, based on when she used it....any UK folks want to correct my uneducated self? ^^ From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 14 01:16:19 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 01:16:19 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: <004101c3f294$25872000$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90906 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: > Carol, who has a completely unrelated question: What the heck does > Tonks mean by "Wotcher?" > > {Anne} > > I think, maybe it's a variant of our own American slang-- "Whatchadoing?" IE > What (how) are you doing?" Just a guess, based on when she used it....any UK > folks want to correct my uneducated self? ^^ Per the Lexicon: A greeting, shortened form of "what cheer!" Also spelled "Wotcha". Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Feb 13 12:30:59 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:30:59 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 The Sorting Hat's New Song In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90907 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: >x > > 3. What does the Hat do with a pureblood child who is brave, > cunning and intelligent? Is this child a Hufflepuff? "Subtlety. Potter." Great question! I think this one threw most of us off guard! So a Gryffindor is only brave and a Ravenclaw is only intelligent and a Slytherin is only cunning but a Hufflepuff is all three! Let's hope that's how Hufflepuffs see it because they don't seem to get much respect. Potioncat From pulpficlet at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 15:58:01 2004 From: pulpficlet at yahoo.com (pulpficlet) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:58:01 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90908 Lucy wrote: > What do y'all think Snape's Patronus will look like, >if he can make one? Kneasy wrote: >A wolverine. >Vicious, effective, a loner, but not a coward. >And very definitely not something to mess with. A wolverine is good, but awfully like a werewolf, perhaps. I'd guess a weasel or a fox. Sneaky, devious, untrustworthy. And very definitely not something to mess with. Paula From shannayarbrough at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 19:09:24 2004 From: shannayarbrough at yahoo.com (Shanna Yarbrough) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:09:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dark Ships / Bellatrix In-Reply-To: <1076685177.10043.95855.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040213190924.74053.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90909 In reading OotP again, I was thinking that Harry seemed a little too (and perhaps sexually) fascinated with Bellatrix, but thought I was completely hallucinating. If this nasty little idea has recieved post time here, could someone direct me to where I might read up on theories/rants/shocking innuendo? Thanks, Shanna From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Feb 13 21:50:29 2004 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:50:29 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Patronus References: Message-ID: <402D46A5.9030707@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90910 Susan Miller wrote: > > Actually, wolverines are not related to wolves or dogs. They are the > largest members of the weasel family. Here is what it says on the > home page of the Wolverine Foundation: > > However, the wolverine is not found in the UK.. BUT, the badger is. Why not a badger? A large, agressive, but solitary member of the weasel family, of which there is a species found in the UK. Jazmyn From jennivirides at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 13 22:37:37 2004 From: jennivirides at yahoo.co.uk (jennivirides) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:37:37 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90911 JustCarol said: > > > > > I was rereading OoP last night and realized that the teacher giving > > the DADA exam to Severus and MWPP in "Snape's Worst Memory" was > > Professor Flitwick! If he was the DADA professor twenty-one years > > earlier, why is he teaching Charms now? Granted, he seems much more > > suited to teach Charms than DADA, but still, why the annual search for > > a DADA professor (setting aside the possibility that Snape could teach > > it) when Flitwick is still available? Why not give the position back > > to Flitwick and find another qualified Charms teacher? That would > > almost certainly be easier than finding a good DADA teacher (other > > than Lupin), which seems to be nearly impossible. Coming out of lurkdom to answer this question, as no one else seems to be doing so. Maybe this is a British thing again, but I always viewed the OWLs as being the equivalent to GCSEs, or O-levels as were, and I know I'm not the only one. In GCSE and A-level exams, the teachers who moderate the exam - say 'you may start the exam now', walk up and down the tables and so on - are rarely the same teachers that teach the subject. In fact (though I don't think it's a requirement of the exam boards) many schools don't let teachers moderate exams in their own subjects, for fear of cheating I suppose. So I really don't think there's any evidence here that Flitwick was DADA teacher, and I doubt JK Rowling intended it to appear that way. Of course, I'm always open to being proved wrong. :) Dessie, going back to lurking. From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 22:48:29 2004 From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (Sarah) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:48:29 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: getting wands back - Nitpick Hagrid References: Message-ID: <003a01c3f283$80c68fc0$9701a8c0@odyssey.local> No: HPFGUIDX 90912 Steve: As far > as his expulsion, I think the headmaster and Board of Governors can > fix that, but there seems to be a criminal record too. Until the > Ministry holds a formal hearing and officially reverses Hagrid's > status there will always be a cloud hanging over him. Sarah: Even if there is a hearing to formally clear Hagrid of charges, he shouldn't be allowed to do magic. He isn't a qualified wizard. Not an OWL or NEWT to his name. Imagine Hagrid getting a new wand and attending lessons with the third years. He and Dennis Creevy could study together in the Gryffindor common room. Would they take Care of Magical Creatures from Grubbly-Plank? Sarah From jennefer_pizza at muzak.com Fri Feb 13 22:56:14 2004 From: jennefer_pizza at muzak.com (jenzajlp) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:56:14 -0000 Subject: Animagus!Ginny Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90913 Hello all. I've only posted once, and I'm fairly new, so forgive me if this has been discussed at all before. Ginny as of late has been proving herself to be a highly competant witch and I've seen a few posts lately speculating as to whether any of the students would become an Animagus. There are some references in CoS, GoF, and OotP comparing Ginny to cats. For example (and you'll have to forgive me, I had these noted but I am away from my books, so I don't have page numbers/specific quotes): "Ginny made a noise like an angry cat." "Ginny was curled up in her chair like a cat." Also, in CoS when Mrs. Norris has been found petrified, Ron comments that Ginny is "particulary fond of cats." There are countless images of Ginny playing with or petting Crookshanks, especially in OotP in the chapter where they are having dinner at the OotP Headquarters. Do you think this could be JKR dropping hints that perhaps Ginny may become an Animagus that transforms into a cat? Thoughts? Jenza, who is also working on a theory about basalisks, Slytherin, Lily, and Harry's eyes. From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sat Feb 14 01:42:05 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:42:05 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flitwick as DADA professor? References: Message-ID: <005f01c3f29b$c0667a60$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90914 {Dessie} Maybe this is a British thing again, but I always viewed the OWLs as being the equivalent to GCSEs, or O-levels as were, and I know I'm not the only one. In GCSE and A-level exams, the teachers who moderate the exam - say 'you may start the exam now', walk up and down the tables and so on - are rarely the same teachers that teach the subject. In fact (though I don't think it's a requirement of the exam boards) many schools don't let teachers moderate exams in their own subjects, for fear of cheating I suppose. {Anne} Well, when I was in highschool (age 13-17), we had the SAT's (Standard Aptititude Tests), which I sort of see as being the same thing (only ours seem to happen every year, although I might be misremembering--it's been over 14 years since my last one). From what a friend from the UK told me, they are very similar in use and function to the UK's GCSE's, and, like them, when I took them we were typically moved to a cafeteria or large conference type room to be given the test, and it was usualy over-looked by teachers (or maybe government officials) that we did not know or recognize. The reasoning, I presume, as you say, was to keep the testing as 'honest' as possible.... From starropal at hotmail.com Sat Feb 14 02:53:57 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:53:57 -0600 Subject: Post # requests... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90915 Not long ago my computer decided to die on me and I lost most of my files. Could someone please send me the post numbers for the analyzing posts on The Chamber of Secrets and The Graveyard scenes and their secret, sinister, sexual subtext. Also for the Crouch Novella. I would REALLY appreciate it. Thank you in advance! Star Opal "Isn't life," she stammered, "isn't life-" But what life was she couldn't explain. No matter. He quite understood. "*Isn't* it, darling?" said Laurie. _________________________________________________________________ Find great local high-speed Internet access value at the MSN High-Speed Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Sat Feb 14 03:03:19 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 03:03:19 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90916 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" > wrote: > > Carol, who has a completely unrelated question: What the heck does > > Tonks mean by "Wotcher?" > > > > {Anne} > > > > I think, maybe it's a variant of our own American slang-- > "Whatchadoing?" IE > > What (how) are you doing?" Just a guess, based on when she used > it....any UK > > folks want to correct my uneducated self? ^^ > > Per the Lexicon: > A greeting, shortened form of "what cheer!" Also spelled "Wotcha". > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Sawsan now: Ok thanks Siriusly Snapey Susan, but one question, what does what cheer as a phrase mean? I always thought she meant watch out or watch yourself or whats up or something. BUt what is what cheer? how is it used? is it similar to any american saying? Thanks Sawsan From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Feb 14 03:10:15 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:10:15 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90917 In a message dated 2/13/2004 10:05:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, sawsan_issa at earthlink.net writes: Sawsan now: Ok thanks Siriusly Snapey Susan, but one question, what does what cheer as a phrase mean? I always thought she meant watch out or watch yourself or whats up or something. BUt what is what cheer? how is it used? is it similar to any american saying? ============= Sherrie here: "What cheer?" is an archaic way of saying "How goes it?", or "What's the good word?" Sherrie (I TRIED to stretch it to two lines - I really DID!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Sat Feb 14 03:22:42 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:22:42 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) References: Message-ID: <007501c3f2a9$ced0efa0$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90918 "What cheer?" is an archaic way of saying "How goes it?", or "What's the good word?" Sherrie (I TRIED to stretch it to two lines - I really DID!) Lol! Well, that sounds like a variation of "what's up?" or "How are you doing?' to me...^^; Anne From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Feb 14 03:43:27 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 03:43:27 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90919 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Saitaina" wrote: > > Carol wrote: > > > > Not to get sidetracked here, but I also wonder when and why Quirrell > was first hired. Was it at the same time as Snape? I get the idea that > he's at least a few years younger than Snape and that someone else > held the job before him, but if so it couldn't have been Flitwick if > there was a DADA vacancy at the time Snape was hired. > > Carol Sue B: Good question. I don't have the book in front of me, but you are probably right about Quirrell's relative youth - I didn't get the impression he'd been in the job all that long, because I'd swear that someone mentioned it was already "jinxed" by then. However, didn't it mention somewhere that he'd been fairly competent before wandering into that forest and being pounced on by LV? Possibly ambitious and arrogant and then - wham! Turban time. The question I'd have is, even if nobody knew what was going on, why didn't DD give him a nice comfy room like Trelawney and hand the job - at least temporarily - to Flitwick (who might actually *prefer* Charms, ever thought of that? In the real world, teachers are often stuck with subjects they don't care for because of qualifications they got when they were young and inexperienced and which are now needed. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you want to). From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 03:59:08 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 03:59:08 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: <402D46A5.9030707@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90920 Susan Miller wrote: Actually, wolverines are not related to wolves or dogs. They are the largest members of the weasel family. Here is what it says on the home page of the Wolverine Foundation: Jazmyn: However, the wolverine is not found in the UK.. BUT, the badger is. Why not a badger? A large, agressive, but solitary member of the weasel family, of which there is a species found in the UK. Carol: I know that everyone else is going to say this, but I did check for responses first before jumping in. It would be the ultimate irony if Snape's patronus were a badger because the badger is the mascot of Hufflepuff! I think our Snake would be much happier with a snape. Er, you know what I mean. The symbol or mascot of his own house. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 04:25:25 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 04:25:25 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90921 Sue B: Good question. I don't have the book in front of me, but you are probably right about Quirrell's relative youth - I didn't get the impression he'd been in the job all that long, because I'd swear that someone mentioned it was already "jinxed" by then. However, didn't it mention somewhere that he'd been fairly competent before wandering into that forest and being pounced on by LV? Possibly ambitious and arrogant and then - wham! Turban time. Carol: Actually LV says in GoF that he was young and gullible, at first believing in good and evil but being easy to persuade that there's only power. I'm paraphrasing, but he definitely said that Quirrell was easy to bend to his will. (See my earlier post on kinds of possession--his versus Ginny's.) Sue B: The question I'd have is, even if nobody knew what was going on, why didn't DD give him a nice comfy room like Trelawney and hand the job - at least temporarily - to Flitwick (who might actually *prefer* Charms, ever thought of that? In the real world, teachers are often stuck with subjects they don't care for because of qualifications they got when they were young and inexperienced and which are now needed. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you want to). Carol: Oh, I definitely think that Flitwick prefers Charms to DADA. He has fun in his class, and you have to be serious in DADA. All I'm saying is that if Flitwick can proctor the DADA exam (including, presumably, its practical component) and grade the exam papers, he can teach the course. And it would have saved a lot of grief to ask him to teach it until a qualified permanent teacher could be found. The alternative is Snape, but for whatever reason, DD is withholding it from him. So instead we get a possessed Voldie slave, an incompetent egotist, a werewolf (nothing against Lupin, but he knows he presents a danger to the students and staff), a paranoid auror who gets Imperio'd and replaced by a certifiably insane Death Eater, and (hem, hem!) a power hungry, sadistic bureaucrat. So, as Ron would say, what is Dumbledore playing at? Just give the job to Flitwick, will you? At least for now? Carol From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Feb 14 04:54:15 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 04:54:15 -0000 Subject: FILK: Son Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90922 Star Opal recently complained about the dearth of Dursley filks, and addressed this need with a brilliant filk of her own ? here's another attempt to fill this glaring gap. Son To the tune of One from A Chorus Line A MIDI at http://www.hamienet.com/cat2052.html THE SCENE: Little Whinging. THE DURSLEYS ? who despite their manifold shortcomings in multiple areas, do seem to understand the concept of unconditional acceptance ? celebrate the virtues of their one & only VERNON & PETUNIA Son Born of `Tun and Vernon Dudley D. of Privet Drive One Appetite a-yearnin' For a riveting life. One nephew living here with us who's always blue Big D has hit Harry harder Than You-Know-Who. Once got 39 presents Broke them in all in a few days Never in his power plays undone, son Ooh! Sigh! Fame, dare not be fickle! To our Diddykins the Ickle He's our son! Son Born of Vern and `Tunia Ev'ry thing he does, he rocks One Slug from him will wound ya - He cleans Mark Evans' clock! One diet, suddenly Dudley's a boxing champ. No other student displaying This foxy stamp He's what his cousin resents But his folks are truly blessed For our boy has no arrests, not one, hon. Ooh! Sigh! Every gal at Smeltings! Soon your heart will be a-melting! He's our son! (Enter DUDLEY and his gang PIERS, MALCOLM & GORDON, systematically dismantling the Little Whinging park playground) DUDLEY & GANG (severally) -One, two, break it down -Born of `Tun and Vernon -Pound around -Nice right hook -Straight to his head -Three, four -Squealed like a pig -Follow through -Up, down -Feel him fried -Ham-like hands, to fists -Strike, bash, -Three, four, suddenly Dudley's a . -Champ, clamp up -Step an' step, slow -Three, four, five, six, -Swing, set, back, break, five, six... -Break, break! ALL FOUR: Never in my/his power plays undone, son We cry! Keep us free from scandal Stay free, Diddykins the Vandal It's such fun! VERNON, PETUNIA & THREE GANG MEMBERS (except Ickle Diddykins) Son Born of Vern and `Tunia Ev'ry thing he does, he rocks One Slug from him will wound ya - He cleans Mark Evans' clock! One diet, suddenly Dudley's our boxing champ. No other student displaying This foxy stamp He's what his cousin resents But we/his folks are truly blessed For our/their boy has no arrests, not one, hon Ooh! Sigh! Every gal at Smeltings! Soon your heart will be a-melting! He's our/their son! Son! Son! Son! SON!!! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From starropal at hotmail.com Sat Feb 14 05:38:46 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 23:38:46 -0600 Subject: FILK- Have Some Peace Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90923 Song #2 in That Scar With Feeling by Star Opal; filked from Joss Whedon's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Once More With Feeling". Dedicated to Caius Marcus Have Some Peace To the tune of _Rest In Peace_ Philosopher's Stone; Chaptor 12, The Mirror of Erised: The late Lily and James Potter sing against the illusion of the mirror. Lily and James: We died So many years ago You just want to feel Like it isn't so And why you come sit with us We think you finally know mmm-mmm You're scared And don't know how to feel You've never been around true love Not sure how you should deal Harry, sitting with the dead It doesn't make it real It's great And we wish that we may 'Cause loving from you touches us More than we can say But son we're only dead for you >From Erised stay away And try to have some peace Try to have some peace Try to get some sleep Try to find live love and cherish it And in your life to keep Yes our bodies were laid out So You Know Who's attack would cease So try to have some peace You know, Did it with love to save You just have to remember That for you our lives gave In three years, Be seeing you At the Hangleton graves And try to have some peace We know you must go But we'll follow you, in your heart possessed And its better there beneath your breast The thought hurts us more than you'll ever guess You and this mirror with which you're so impressed As long as you're here we can not rest So leave it be and... Try to have some peace Try to get some sleep Try to find live love and cherish it And in your life to keep Yes our bodies were laid out So You Know Who's attack would cease Try to have some peace Why won't you Try to have some peace? _________________________________________________________________ Plan your next US getaway to one of the super destinations here. http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 06:11:22 2004 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (JuHu) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:11:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: FILK: The Only Living Boy at Hogwarts Message-ID: <20040214061122.51692.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90924 A first FILK, to the tune of Simon and Garfunkel's "The Only Living Boy in New York" by JuHu, who has finally been able to mourn Sirius' death properly. Alas, after eighteen hours of straight reading (from midnight when I had OoP in my hot little hand) I was so tired and relieved JK had finally killed the mystery person, it was hard to get worked up. Original lyrics can be found at www.paulsimon.com The Only Living Boy at Hogwarts Scene: HARRY sits concealed on the edge of the lake, mourning the loss of his godfather HARRY: Here to bid my last good-bye On the morrow I'll be just fine You fell through the veil Da-n-da-da-n-da-n-da-da and here I am, The only living boy at Hogwarts I feel so isolated since 'ole Dumble's report It's almost like I'm wholly from a diff'rent sort Now, I've got nothing to do today but mourn Da-n-do-da-n-do-da-n-do here I am The only living boy at Hogwarts I know you're gone, you're gone, but I don't know where And I don't know where HARRY pauses, and thinks he can almost hear SIRIUS singing faintly: Ah. . . Here I am. HARRY looks up hopefully, then supposes that he imagined it. HARRY: I know you're gone, you're gone, but I don't know where And I don't know where HARRY with SIRIUS "Ahhing" in the background: You've never kept me waiting before A veil, nothing more than a locked door But I'll let your memory shine, shine, shine Da-n-da-da-n-da-n-da-da Let it shine on me SIRIUS: Here I am HARRY: The only living boy at Hogwarts The only living boy at Hogwarts During a musical interlude HARRY numbly skips rocks across the lake's surface. SIRIUS: Ah. . . Here I am. TOGETHER: Ah. . . Here I am. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 14 06:21:21 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 06:21:21 -0000 Subject: Dark SHIPS [HPforGrownups] ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90925 Big Giant snip And heroes always come out on > top(!). Poor Harry; he might even be bald. > > No wonder the series ends so soon. > Happy Valentines. > > Kneasy I have spent 15 minutes trying to come up with a response to this post, I simply must respond. Please do not hit the nail on the head so precisely next time...its way to discouraging! May Harry always have hair, Hermione always be excited about learning, and Ron always be able to find hope in a bad Quidditch team. It is a fantasy after all! Happy Valentines day to you too. Sue From senderellabrat at aol.com Sat Feb 14 06:32:25 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 06:32:25 -0000 Subject: getting wands back - Nitpick Hagrid In-Reply-To: <003a01c3f283$80c68fc0$9701a8c0@odyssey.local> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90926 > Sarah: > Even if there is a hearing to formally clear Hagrid of charges, he shouldn't > be allowed to do magic. He isn't a qualified wizard. Not an OWL or NEWT to > his name. > > Imagine Hagrid getting a new wand and attending lessons with the third > years. He and Dennis Creevy could study together in the Gryffindor common > room. Would they take Care of Magical Creatures from Grubbly-Plank? > Sen: LOL As much as the thought of Hagrid sitting in class with the Creevys made me chuckle, I doubt that'd be the way it'd done. Remember we were introduced to Filch's correspondance courses way back when? I think there was more to that than just showing us Filch was a squib which has yet to really serve a purpose imo. Only thing it really sheds some light on is possibly why Filch can't stand the Hogwarts students. Jealousy. There's got to be more to it than that. I've always thought Hagrid should do those courses and get his wand back finally. Maybe he is and we're just not being shown? I'm convinced theres other importance to that bit of info other than explaining a little bit about Filch. Sen Cmon JKR we're dyin here! BOOK 6 ALREADY!!!!! From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 14 06:49:15 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 06:49:15 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90927 Big Snip. > > Carol, who has a completely unrelated question: What the heck does > Tonks mean by "Wotcher"? According to the Lexicon, it is a derivitive of "what cheer". A fairly common greeting. You can find it in the Strictly Brittish section of the Lexicon. Cheers to you! Sue From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 08:50:18 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 08:50:18 -0000 Subject: getting wands back - Nitpick Hagrid In-Reply-To: <003a01c3f283$80c68fc0$9701a8c0@odyssey.local> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90928 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sarah" wrote: > Steve: > > As far as his expulsion, I think the headmaster and Board of > > Governors can fix that, but there seems to be a criminal record > > too. Until the Ministry holds a formal hearing and officially > > reverses Hagrid's status there will always be a cloud hanging over > > him. > > Sarah: > Even if there is a hearing to formally clear Hagrid ... isn't a > qualified wizard. Not an OWL or NEWT to his name. > > Imagine Hagrid getting a new wand and attending lessons with the > third years. He and Dennis Creevy could study together ...edited... > > Sarah bboy_mn: True Hargrid doesn't have documented qualifications like he would get from his O.W.L. test, but he is an adult wizard with well over 50 years experience, and while not necessarily great, he doesn't seem to lack magic talent. In my view, having your OWL qualifications is like having a high school diploma, both are important for getting a job, but people who don't have high school diplomas (or OWLs) still get jobs, and many become very successful and respected in life by applying their specialized talents. In Hagrid's case, he has managed to use his talent with animals to become Keeper of Grounds & Keys, as well as Game Keeper, and let's not forget, he's now a Professor at the school. Seems to have done quite well without his OWLs. I guess what I'm getting at, is that I don't think Hagrids lack of OWLs affects his ability to do magic. Given that he was expelled and that there was a cloud of criminal activity hanging over him, he is specifically NOT allowed to do magic. This is not by general rule of law, but because there is a specific legal order forbidding him from doing so. I speculate that if he was formally cleared, there would be nothing from stopping him from getting a new wand, and performing magic freely and openly. Once again, he IS an adult, and his magic skill are more than adequate for the job he does. In addition, in over 50 years of living at the school, he has probably picked up more than a bit of magical knowledge and experience. We won't really know until it is resolved in the storyline, but I think, Dumbledore and Hagrid need to get off their lazy butts and get the ruling against Hagrid reversed. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 14 10:29:54 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:29:54 -0000 Subject: Wotcher WAS How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90929 > Sawsan now: > Ok thanks Siriusly Snapey Susan, but one question, what does what > cheer as a phrase mean? I always thought she meant watch out or > watch yourself or whats up or something. BUt what is what cheer? > how is it used? is it similar to any american saying? Pip!Squeak: It's 'cheer' in the sense of 'cheer up', or 'be cheerful'. The extremely old fashioned phrase 'Be of good cheer' is also the same sort of sense. And saying 'cheers' when you raise a glass *isn't* shorthand for 'cheering loudly because I've finally got a drink' [grin]. It's a wish that your fellow drinkers will be happy. So 'cheer' is happy, optimistic. 'What cheer' means 'What's happening that's good?' Personally, I think 'Wotcher' is a phrase Tonks has picked up from her muggle-born dad, as it isn't used much these days. She's trying to be muggleish, but using out-of-date slang because the WW is so separate from the muggle world. Nowadays, it's more normal to use 'cheers', mostly as slang for 'thank-you', or 'good-bye'. Pip!Squeak From steve at hp-lexicon.org Sat Feb 14 10:41:13 2004 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:41:13 -0000 Subject: Could Lily have trained to be an Auror while Pregnant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90930 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elihufalk" wrote: > > There is, in my opinion, a mistake in the Lexicon's claim that Remus > Lupin Went to Hogwarts in the 70's. If so, the mistake is Rowling's, not mine. She said that Snape was "35 or 36" in an interview shortly after the release of book four. Prof. McGonagall became a teacher > 39 years before OP; She teaches transfigurations, the same subject > that Dumbledore taught (CS); so Dumbledore must have stopped teaching > that by 1956 (assuming Harry was born in 1981). But that doesn't meant that he became Headmaster at that point. We don't know what he did. For that matter, we don't know that McGongall taught Transfiguration right away. She may have taught something else and taken over Transfiguration in the late 1960s. We are told nothing of who taught what, only that Snape (and therefore Lily) was 35 or 36 in the mid-1990s. > > Now, James and Lily were of the same year as Lupin, therefore the > years when Lily could have finished school were before 1970. Lily and James and the rest of that generation left Hogwarts toward the end of the 1970s. We don't know the exact years. James and Lily were about 22 when they had Harry and 23 when they died. They could have been Aurors, sure. There's enough uncertainty to the dates to allow for a couple of years of training right out of school before Harry was conceived. It is also possible that Rowling was just plain wrong in that interview. She's not strong on numbers, to say the least. On the other hand, I can't imagine that she didn't work out a timeline for all of this as part of her five years of preparation for writing, considering the complexity of her plotting and the detail that she went to. Steve The Lexicon From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Sat Feb 14 11:14:08 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:14:08 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: <005f01c3f29b$c0667a60$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: > > Well, when I was in highschool (age 13-17), we had the SAT's (Standard > Aptititude Tests), which I sort of see as being the same thing (only ours > seem to happen every year, although I might be misremembering-- it's been > over 14 years since my last one). From what a friend from the UK told me, > they are very similar in use and function to the UK's GCSE's, and, like > them, when I took them we were typically moved to a cafeteria or large > conference type room to be given the test, and it was usualy over- looked by > teachers (or maybe government officials) that we did not know or recognize. > The reasoning, I presume, as you say, was to keep the testing as 'honest' > as possible.... dorapye: I always assumed that Flitick in the Pensieve scene is just the invigilator of he exam, not the "examiner" as provided by The Ministry, as it is a written exam. I checked back in OotP, and on p627 of the UK edition, we have McGonagall invigilating a Charms exam (Harry's first OWL): '...the four house tables had been removed and replaced instead with many tables for one, all facing the staff-table end of the Hall where Professor McGonagall stood facing them. When they were all seated and quiet, she said, "You may begin," and turned over an enormous hour glass on the desk beside her, on which there were also spare quills, ink bottles and rolls of parchment.' So,IMO, Flitwick is just supervising the exam, not actually responsible for marking it, and therefore neither Ministry examiner nor DADA professor....not sure it rules either possibility out, just that these are the conclusions I have made and they seem to fit with canon... This fits with other people's ideas, yes? dorapye From silmariel at telefonica.net Sat Feb 14 11:21:55 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:21:55 +0100 Subject: Dark SHIPS [HPforGrownups] ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200402141221.55943.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90932 > > > Silmariel, remembering where FEATHERBOAs come from, and smiling. > > > > Carolyn, who so agrees: > > > > And what happened to that thread about Bellatrix being Harry's dark > > obsession... something more suitable for Valentine's day methinks. Kneasy: > Huh. Time for a rant (or moan, depending on your point of view). > > It seems to be de rigeur to shake the finger at kindly, white bearded, > twinkly-spectacled, portly old gentlemen (just like Kneasy) for failing > to enthuse over the speculative amorous shenanigans beloved of some > of, shall we say, the more excitable wing of the romantic tendency among > the membership. Ah, the follies of youth! Oh, no, no for not speculating, just for remembering it to me, I had been carefully avoiding SHIP threads and you just go and talk about it. > To all those avid SHIPpers I say - extrapolate. Let's jump the gun on JKR > and look a bit further ahead; what will we see? What will these people be > in a decade or two? Yes... but let me digress to the past before to say I'm also interested in the possibility that McGonadall is Lucius mother. I'd like to know that history (even in a fanfic). > Neville will collect stamps (or the WW equivalent) and will never go out > without his thermal underwear. After being heartbroken and deciding to shield himself a little and be more cinic about love, Neville will discover that he can bed ladies (or whatever, I have no preferences) exagerating his friendship with the boy who lived, and he'll get advantage of being shy, quiet and nice to look vulnerable and not dangerous, so not to scare the ladies. > Ron will concentrate all his energies on his true vocation - being a full- > time Quidditch fan. The Chudley Cannons fixture list will rule his life. So he'll be an alpha-male and get used to catch the lady on the fly... at the same time remembering Hermione and trying to 'care for her' in a 'friendly' way. > Harry will spend his evenings down the pub, wondering why life is so > boring these days and boring everybody else by telling them so. > Hermione will nag - after all she knows she has all the answers, so why > don't they listen? Harpy Hermione. Both boring, insuferable adults will hang together and maybe lie to themselves pretending they are in love. Pretending, because from time to time Hermione will sneak out to see Ron. Harry, for his part, after knowing Bellatrix, his infance treatment, being tortured by Voldemort, being tortured by umbridge and who knows else that could happen in books 6&7, will discover he is a masochist that will never be satisfied by Hermione (who is not a sadist) and will start looking for something else... It can be the other way around, of course, with Hermione pretending that Ron doesn't step on her with other women (as if she could) and Harry discovering the joys of pain to her after a long period of internal struggle, a beautiful euphemism for 'I feel guilty but I really want sex with him'. > Luna will swear by horoscopes, Feng Shui, cabbage water diets, etc, etc. Let's pray she does not end sacrificing a lover below a yew. > Ginny. I have expectations of Ginny. I think she'll become what was > known in Kipling's time as "a reg'lar baddun." "reg'lar baddun" ?? > True romance, eh? Try it with that lot. Sirius and Lupin. As one is dead, there's no room for a future crash. > The pink haze of hormonal tunnel vision soon wears off and then comes > the time of decision - will those cute little habits seem as sweet on a wet > November morning as they do now? It's advisable to tell the truth. I know, I'm still in the age of romance but not for much time, and survived a few 'true romances', so I know what happens when couples are based on passion. That passion dissapears. > Memories of Bella will make Harry even more unsettled. He will fantasise > on what might have been - any current spouse is sure to come > off worst in the comparison. It's not possible to compete with a dream. No, it is not possible. If he were more prone to 'action' instead of thinking he might discover few dreams stand still once they have come true ('when gods want to punish us they give us our desires'), and be more realistic about dreams. But given enough years even Harry will take any action... ah, the follies of youth! > No wonder the series ends so soon. > Happy Valentines. Happy Valentines... thanks for the dagger, I'll use it to cut trough the desitions to be made today. How I hate Valentines. Silmariel From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sat Feb 14 11:26:26 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:26:26 -0000 Subject: Apparition & Fidelius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90933 Yet another question that ties into my massive and pervasive curiosity concerning the Fidelius Charm.... Why do Order members arrive at HQ via the front door and even ring the door bell, waiting for someone to let them in when Fred and George show us that Apparition is possible within the house? Is a just something that allows them to Disapparate and Apparate while remaining within the house? If they can do this, why do Order members not simply pop in and out without risking being seen outside as they enter or take the time to wait for someone to answer the door? Could this perhaps be linked to the Fidelius Charm? Say, because F&G are already in the house, they can pop and crack as they please and probably even leave its confines. But perhaps Apparition *into* the house from someplace outside of the house is forbidden or maybe even dependent upon the Secret Keeper sharing the Apparition coordinates or even just plain impossible? There must be something that makes it impossible for the Order members to not pop in and out--it's far and away a better way to travel and less risky than arriving by the front door. But what allows F&G to do it in the house then? Ideas?? Arya From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Sat Feb 14 11:27:58 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:27:58 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: >> For anyone who's interested, I found the reference that identifies > Rabastan and Rodolphus Lestrange as the two men Harry sees in the > Pensieve along with Bellatrix and Barty Crouch, Jr. It's in OoP, Am. > ed., 114. I'm still looking for the one about the Order members being > outnumbered twenty to one by DEs. If anyone finds it, please post. > dorapye: Hi Carol. The quote you want is in "The Woes of Mrs Weasley", UK Ed p161, when Lupin is comforting Molly after her humiliating Boggart terror. She confides that she thinks it'll be a miracle if all the Weasleys come out of this second war unscathed and Lupin says: ..."Oh Molly, come on, it's about time you got used to hearing his name - look I can't promise no one's going to het hurt, nobody can promise that, but we're much better off than we were last time. You weren't in the Order then, you don't understand. Last time we were out-numbered twenty to one by the Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one..." I must admit, this statement never bothered me before, but now people are asking questions about how many DEs there are and how many turned up to the graveyard, I'm struggling with it too. Maybe Lupin meant "DEs and people controlled by DEs"? dorapye (Helen) From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 14 11:49:05 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:49:05 -0000 Subject: Wotcher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90935 There is a similar Yorkshire expression "What fettle?" which means much the same thing - how's it going? Wotcher or wotcha is a pretty old-fashioned expression. It's used in old music-hall songs like "Knocked 'em in the Old Kent Road: "Wotcha, all the neighbours cry..." It's hardly ever used now, so I would agree that Tonks has picked it up from her Muggle dad and thinks it is the essence of cool. Same goes for some of Ron's expressions. Sylvia (remembering that Terry Pratchett's cheerily vulgar witch, Nanny Ogg, uses it a lot) From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Sat Feb 14 11:57:56 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:57:56 -0000 Subject: Apparition & Fidelius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > Yet another question that ties into my massive and pervasive curiosity > concerning the Fidelius Charm.... > > Why do Order members arrive at HQ via the front door and even ring the door > bell, waiting for someone to let them in when Fred and George show us that > Apparition is possible within the house? Is a just something that allows them > to Disapparate and Apparate while remaining within the house? If they can > do this, why do Order members not simply pop in and out without risking > being seen outside as they enter or take the time to wait for someone to > answer the door? > > Could this perhaps be linked to the Fidelius Charm? Say, because F&G are > already in the house, they can pop and crack as they please and probably > even leave its confines. But perhaps Apparition *into* the house from > someplace outside of the house is forbidden or maybe even dependent upon > the Secret Keeper sharing the Apparition coordinates or even just plain > impossible? There must be something that makes it impossible for the Order > members to not pop in and out--it's far and away a better way to travel and > less risky than arriving by the front door. But what allows F&G to do it in the > house then? Ideas?? > dorapye: No answers I'm afraid, just more questions. Sorry! Well, 12 GP is 'unplottable' and Sirius explains this to mean that Muggles can never come and call (they don't see it, like The Leaky Cauldron?) Does this mean that it does not actually *have* coordinates that could be used for apparition? Perhaps... So, thinking it out: no possible 'plottable' coordinates for apparition from outside *into* the house, but apparently this is not a barrier to apparating *from within* the house to other areas inside the house....confusing...? Does anyone else remember reading of any unplottable places which could be apparated to/from? Can we de-bunk this idea completely? Alternatively, another explanation could be that it is the Fidelius Charm that prevents apparition *into* the house, even by those people the Secret-Keeper has given the address of the place to. Harry has to say in his head the words "The Headquarters of The Order of the Phoenix may be found at number twelve Grimmauld Place" in order to see the building emerge between numbers 11 and 13. Maybe this routine must be performed every time someone wishes to enter the house? Maybe they have to approach from the outside of the house and visualise the "secret" in order to see the house? This would preclude apparition, do you think? Sorry that I haven't come up with any answers, but maybe this has been some help..? dorapye From belijako at online.no Sat Feb 14 11:59:13 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:59:13 -0000 Subject: Determining innocence, was Re: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90937 LizVega writes: So, Snape wanted to use it [veritaserum] to see if Harry had broken into his office, Dumbledore did use it on Crouch, jr. to find out exactly how he came to be at Hogwarts. And, Delores wanted to use it on Harry to find out where Dumbledore and Sirius were. Berit replies: When you're saying Snape *wanted* to use it to find out if Harry had broken into his office, it sounds like you mean he really would have done it. I think it would be more correct to say that Snape *threatened* to use veritaserum, not that he actually would do it. After all, he never did, did he? To me, reading that passage, it's quite clear Snape never intended to use it. Harry was seriously afraid he might because he happened to think Snape was poisoning Lupin at the time (the Wolfsbane potion), so he believed Snape couldn't be trusted not to slip this and that into people's goblets. But after reading all five HP books, I get the impression Snape's the kind of guy who doesn't do half of the things he threatens to do... I bet he wouldn't even expel Harry from Hogwarts even if he had the authority. He just wanted to scare the little Potter brat. Also, from the way veritaserum is being used in the Potter verse, or I should rather say; from how it's *not* being used, I get the feeling there are strict ethical guidelines as to when it is okay to use it. We never see Dumbledore, Snape, McGonagall or Filch forcing it down the throats of naughty students, do we? Not even when Harry was cornered at the crime scene of Mrs. Norris's petrification does anyone think about using veritaserum. Snape quite effectively deduces that Harry is not telling the whole truth, but DD doesn't ask Snape to fetch a bottle of veritaserum to find out once and for all if Harry had anything to do with the fate of Mrs Norris. Why wouldn't he, when veritaserum could set everything straight at once? Not even Ludo Bagman was forced to drink veritaserum at his trial, instead the jury had to decide to trust his words that he was innocent of the charges made against him... I think the wizarding authorities normally won't use veritaserum because it would be a violation on "human rights"; the integrity of a person. Since Umbridge's attempt of using veritaserum (she is scrupulous) and Snape's threat doesn't count (it was only a threat), the only incident we've got where veritaserum probably was used "rightfully" was when DD used it on Crouch Jr. I can easily see why it was okay in that situation: DD had just caught Impostor!Moody red-handed as he was attempting to murder Harry, and he had reason to believe he had more crimes on his conscience (DD deducted there was something fishy going on when Mad-Eye Moody removed Harry from DD's presence). Also, Harry informed DD that Voldemort and his DE's were back, so there was no time to lose: DD needed vital information quickly to be able to counter-act and prepare defensive actions against Voldemort. It's an interesting ethical dilemma; to what lengths is it okay to go to "force" the truth out of suspects in order to reveal the truth and protect the larger community... This question is widely discussed in the Muggle world as well (the police, the military)... Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From belijako at online.no Sat Feb 14 12:17:36 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:17:36 -0000 Subject: Wotcher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90938 ladyramkin2000 wrote: It's hardly ever used now, so I would agree that Tonks has picked it up from her Muggle dad and thinks it is the essence of cool. Berit replies: It IS the essence of cool... when Tonks is using it :-) In the Norwegian language (I imagine it is the same with the English language) there are plenty of examples of people picking up old words/sayings and turning them into cool, "modern" words. For an old word to be "re-invented" and becoming cool it is enough for someone cool to start using it. And Tonks is cool :-) I'm sure Harry and his peers don't think Tonks is daft for using "wotcher". They would, though, if it was Luna who started using it LOL. Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 13:39:22 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 13:39:22 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90939 Before OotP, I posted that Voldemort's strategy in the early stage of the Second Voldemort War would be stay covert and build strength; undermine Harry and Dumbledore; Deny the Good Side Hogwarts as a base; Keep the Ministry complacent and asleep; Keep the wizard public complacent and asleep. That pretty much worked out, except that Voldemort and the Death Eaters have suffered a major defeat. The existence of a restored Voldemort has been outed far too soon; many of the cadre of Death Eaters are now captured; Lucius Malfoy is neutralized as an agent of influence whether he escapes from Azkaban or not; Cornelius Fudge and his excellent complacency is discredited and discgraced; and Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore are not only restored in the public's opinion, but have more prestige and credibility than ever. It just couldn't get much worse for the Death Eaters. LV is lucky he salvaged Bellatrix from the mess, even though she looks like his most psycho and therefore unreliable follower. So what now for the Death Eaters? How many are left, and what quality? Hogwarts seems unassailable now, at least from the kind of covert undermining that came close to succeeding in OotP. Are the DE's strong enough to attack the school directly? What about the Slytherin students, will they help the DE's, can they? Some of them surely aren't actively evil and may come to Dumbledore, and Snape will have a pretty good idea what's going on. What about the students whose parents are now in jail? (Or should I say "gaol?") I fear that one result of this is that Harry and those close to him are more endangered than ever. LV's got nothing to lose now by revealing himself, and one obvious way to hurt Harry is through his friends, those nearest to him. That means Luna, the Weasleys, the DA members, and most of all Ron and Hermione. They can be attacked at home over the summer, and maybe they will be. We may see more action outside of school than before. This is when the DE's might become more terroristic in the classic sense. Horror is the weapon of hatred when conventional means aren't available. DA members might find themselves losing their parents, perhaps to Bellatrix's tender mercies. Ministry workers may be targets. Hogsmeade visits might be unsafe. How will Dumbledore respond? Clearly he is the leader of the wizard world now, whether Fudge holds on to his title or not. (How Fudge could stay in office another day is hard to fathom). Dumbledore and the Order will, I believe, have some clear goals: Protect Hogwarts, the center of resistance to the DE's, and protect the students. The parents will face danger for themselves and not panic if they feel their children are safe. Develop Harry's strengths; the Prophecy makes Harry's preservation an absolute strategic necessity. Only Harry can bring final victory. Keep the Death Eaters off balance; deny them a base; make them stay on the run, with the goal of not allowing them the time and rest to formulate and launch attacks. Conduct an intelligence war against the DE's. First is to keep the Slytherins in the school and make them welcome. This is the yin to the fighting the DE's yang. Some of them will not go along with the DE program, and DD ans Snape are likely to find out what's going on when many of them have a crisis of conscience. Defending the school is key, and it can't be done by making the school a fortress and waiting behind its walls. It's never worked in the Muggle world, and it won't work in the magic one. The DE's can't be allowed to draw a peaceful breath. They have to be looking over their shoulders every minute. THIS WON'T WIN THE WAR. Only Harry can do that. This strategy only buys time [and saves wizard society] for the final stage to develop, the one where Harry and Voldemort confront each other at the end. The only sure thing about that is that Harry will pay dearly for it. From grahadh at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 13:40:07 2004 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (grahadh) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 13:40:07 -0000 Subject: Apparition & Fidelius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90940 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > Yet another question that ties into my massive and pervasive curiosity > concerning the Fidelius Charm.... > > Why do Order members arrive at HQ via the front door and even ring the door > bell, waiting for someone to let them in when Fred and George show us that > Apparition is possible within the house? Is a just something that allows them > to Disapparate and Apparate while remaining within the house? If they can > do this, why do Order members not simply pop in and out without risking > being seen outside as they enter or take the time to wait for someone to > answer the door? > > Could this perhaps be linked to the Fidelius Charm? Say, because F&G are > already in the house, they can pop and crack as they please and probably > even leave its confines. But perhaps Apparition *into* the house from > someplace outside of the house is forbidden or maybe even dependent upon > the Secret Keeper sharing the Apparition coordinates or even just plain > impossible? There must be something that makes it impossible for the Order > members to not pop in and out--it's far and away a better way to travel and > less risky than arriving by the front door. But what allows F&G to do it in the > house then? Ideas?? > > Arya Not only is 12 Grimmauld Place under the Fidaleus Charm and unplottable, but didn't Sirius say that his father, being paranoid, placed other magical securtiy spells on the house while he was alive? Perhaps one of those spells prevents people from apparating into the house. It does make it easier to controll who enters the house if there is only one way in or out. I also noticed that nobody used floo powder to travel to and from the house, but they did use it to communicate with eachother. It seems to me that the safest thing would have been to disconnect the house from the floo network completely, seeing as the Order has "more reliable means of communication" (but that would have spoiled the plot of the book!). Perhapse you can reduce your connection to heads only :) -Dhyana From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 14:05:24 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 14:05:24 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90941 Helen: " ..."Oh Molly, come on, it's about time you got used to hearing his name - look I can't promise no one's going to het hurt, nobody can promise that, but we're much better off than we were last time. You weren't in the Order then, you don't understand. Last time we were out-numbered twenty to one by the Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one..." I must admit, this statement never bothered me before, but now people are asking questions about how many DEs there are and how many turned up to the graveyard, I'm struggling with it too. Maybe Lupin meant "DEs and people controlled by DEs"?" There's some possible explanations for it. We all sometimes overstate a little; Lupin might have been doing that. Don't forget LV was defeated in that war by Harry, and many of the DE's were killed, captured, or scattered. And that brings me, at least, to the untold stories of the graveyard scene. How could that be all the surviving DE's? Could it be the cadre of DE's, Voldemort's staff? It doesn't say so in the text, but it's hard to make sense out of it otherwise. I have a hard time imagining Lucius Malfoy standing in the same circle as an evil version of Stan Shunpike. If anything gives that "elite" idea any credence, it's the MoM scene at the end of OotP; there's more DE's around than seem possible even considering the gaps in the circle at the graveyard. Jim Ferer From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 14:22:26 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 14:22:26 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90942 Carol: The alternative is Snape, but for whatever reason, DD is withholding it from him. So instead we get a possessed Voldie slave, an incompetent egotist, a werewolf (nothing against Lupin, but he knows he presents a danger to the students and staff), a paranoid auror who gets Imperio'd and replaced by a certifiably insane Death Eater, and (hem, hem!) a power hungry, sadistic bureaucrat. So, as Ron would say, what is Dumbledore playing at? Just give the job to Flitwick, will you? At least for now?" I think Dumbledore may be withholding the job from Snape for the same reason you wouldn't give a recovering alcoholic a job as a bartender. Besides, I don't know that the students would learn much under his methods. Flitwick could do it, surely, but he hasn't got the aggressive instinct. He probably doesn't want it, anyway, and you'd have to get a new Charms teachere. Why not Moody and Lupin? They can use Hogwarts as their base as well or better than Grimwald Place; They're not underground anymore; and they're close to Harry, who must be protected at all costs. I think I'd double up on the DADA curriculum anyway, and Lupin can teach the younger students, Moody can teach the older ones the rough stuff, and the NEWT level students will go to the Room of Requirement for practice with Harry (openly, this time), which strengthens Harry and cements his position as a leader. Jim Ferer From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 15:09:05 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:09:05 -0000 Subject: Animagus!Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90943 Jennifer:" Ginny as of late has been proving herself to be a highly competant witch and I've seen a few posts lately speculating as to whether any of the students would become an Animagus. There are some references in CoS, GoF, and OotP comparing Ginny to cats " There are, and why not? My hypothesis has always been that the ability to become an Animagus isn't extremely rare, it's just too much work for most witches or wizards to bother with. I would hold up as the example that all three of Lupin's friends, including the less-talented Peter Pettigrew, managed it. They had motivation. But our Ginny won't be an ordinary housecat. How about a European wildcat, felis silvestris, which is reddish anyway? (and le's carry that analogy too far, okay?) Jim Ferer From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 15:27:20 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:27:20 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90944 Jim Ferer wrote: > Before OotP, I posted that Voldemort's strategy in the early stage of > the Second Voldemort War would be > > stay covert and build strength > So what now for the Death Eaters? > This is when the DE's might become more terroristic in the classic > sense. > How will Dumbledore respond? Dumbledore and > the Order will, I believe, have some clear goals: > Neri now: A thorough strategic analysis, but I must add: LV has something that no general in history (even history of magic) ever had: A direct channel to the mind of his key opponent. And this key opponent seems (for LV at least) to be very young and fragile, a most tempting target. So I think this war is going to get *very* personal, almost a duel between LV and Harry, and it will be literally a battle of minds. This might decrease the total body count (I hope) but it's going to be very difficult on Harry. There are many unknowns regarding the scar channel between LV and Harry, and what will happen to it in book 6. The course of the war depends critically on these unknowns. Here are some of them, in no particular order: Can LV steal information from Harry's mind? If so, would Harry willingly isolate himself from the main war effort? Can Harry steal information from LV's mind, and how would he know if it is genuine or a ruse? LV failed in possessing Harry, but might he try again at a moment Harry is more fragile to this attack? Or would LV try a psychological attack? For example, he could show Harry a detailed visual of the death of Harry's parents. Does the Dursleys house also protect Harry from an attack through the scar channel? (He did receive glimpses of LV's mind in the past when he was at the Dursleys) Can DD teach Harry to block the scar channel completely? (in this case it is an impasse and the war will probably continue along the lines you described). Can Harry access and use LV's powers through the scar channel? (a favorite pet theory of mine, see #89999) I'm sure you can raise more questions and speculations. My point is that the war might evolve according to very different scenarios, depending on the answers. Neri From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Feb 14 16:01:51 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 16:01:51 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: <000801c3f276$d3a34060$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90945 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: > > > > Ideas, anybody? > > > > Carol > > > > Iggy here: > > I actually believe that, since JKR has stated that Harry won't be >a teacher, that Lupin will be vindicated and hired on as the >permanent DADA teacher at the end of the series. Argh! Another fan falls victim to Ever-so-evil!Lupin's poor widdle werewolf act. :P IMO, Lupin will meet a just end when Peter Pettigrew kills him at the cost of his own life, saving Harry in a final redemptive act. The DADA position will go to Vampire!Snape, who will be a much nicer pillock once he's getting enough hemaglobin in his diet and not trying to pretend that he's human. And Neville Longbottom will teach...potions! Pippin From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 16:20:15 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 16:20:15 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90946 Neri:" LV has something that no general in history (even history of magic) ever had: A direct channel to the mind of his key opponent. And this key opponent seems (for LV at least) to be very young and fragile, a most tempting target. So I think this war is going to get *very* personal, almost a duel between LV and Harry, and it will be literally a battle of minds." True, and I didn't consider it. There are analogies to this situation in terms of intelligence ? highly placed moles, for example ? but not to LV's ability to attack Harry through their link. It's still true that preserving Harry is an absolute necessity, so protecting his mind is a major part of that. Dumbledore is likely to have more success in teaching Harry Occlumency; Harry made progress even under Snape. Now Harry is under less stress, under a better teacher, so we have to hope it works. Your question about the Dursleys exposes a weakness in Harry's defense: was it wise to send him home not knowing Occulmency? He absolutely was, as you say, touched at the Dursleys, so there's every reason to believe it could happen again. It probably will. Will this be the occasion a Dursley discovers unknown talent? My money's on Petunia. Neri:" Can Harry access and use LV's powers through the scar channel? (a favorite pet theory of mine, see #89999)" In most ways Harry already does access LV's powers; he got many of them from LV when he was attacked. You could say your hypothesis has been true all along. Neri:" Can Harry steal information from LV's mind, and how would he know if it is genuine or a ruse?" It's a risk not worth taking, IMO, for Harry's sake. OTOH, the information would be useful in two ways: first, it would be useful if information could be developed to corroborate it; and second, even knowing what kind of disinformation LV was trying to put out could be useful. Would Harry fall for it if LV tried another Sirius ruse, showing him Ron or Hermione being tortured? It would be difficult for Harry not to, even after falling for it once. Therefore protecting them is another strategic necessity, just as protecting the President's family is. If Harry's closest friends were destroyed or tortured, an emotionally stricken Harry would be even more vulnerable to LV's psychic attacks. That's why I believe that kind of attack is still likely (sheer hatred and evil is another reason). Your points have extra significance because keeping LV on the run won't keep him from launching attacks along the scar channel. It may be one of the few weapons he has left. Clearly you're thinking in strategic terms as well. Thanks for the reply. Jim Ferer From senderellabrat at aol.com Sat Feb 14 16:58:54 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 16:58:54 -0000 Subject: getting wands back - Nitpick Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90947 > > Steve: > > > As far as his expulsion, I think the headmaster and Board of > > > Governors can fix that, but there seems to be a criminal record > > > too. Until the Ministry holds a formal hearing and officially > > > reverses Hagrid's status there will always be a cloud hanging over > > > him. > > Sarah: > > Even if there is a hearing to formally clear Hagrid ... isn't a > > qualified wizard. Not an OWL or NEWT to his name. > > > > Imagine Hagrid getting a new wand and attending lessons with the > > third years. He and Dennis Creevy could study together ...edited... > > > > Sarah > bboy_mn: > > True Hargrid doesn't have documented qualifications like he would get > from his O.W.L. test, but he is an adult wizard with well over 50 > years experience, and while not necessarily great, he doesn't seem to > lack magic talent. > > In my view, having your OWL qualifications is like having a high > school diploma, both are important for getting a job, but people who > don't have high school diplomas (or OWLs) still get jobs, and many > become very successful and respected in life by applying their > specialized talents. In Hagrid's case, he has managed to use his > talent with animals to become Keeper of Grounds & Keys, as well as > Game Keeper, and let's not forget, he's now a Professor at the school. > Seems to have done quite well without his OWLs. > > I guess what I'm getting at, is that I don't think Hagrids lack of > OWLs affects his ability to do magic. Given that he was expelled and > that there was a cloud of criminal activity hanging over him, he is > specifically NOT allowed to do magic. This is not by general rule of > law, but because there is a specific legal order forbidding him from > doing so. > > I speculate that if he was formally cleared, there would be nothing > from stopping him from getting a new wand, and performing magic freely > and openly. Once again, he IS an adult, and his magic skill are more > than adequate for the job he does. In addition, in over 50 years of > living at the school, he has probably picked up more than a bit of > magical knowledge and experience. > > We won't really know until it is resolved in the storyline, but I > think, Dumbledore and Hagrid need to get off their lazy butts and get > the ruling against Hagrid reversed. Me: Something just occured to me. What if it's got nothing to do with the ruling or clearing his name or any of it. What if its the fact he's part giant? Sen From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Feb 14 17:20:40 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:20:40 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90948 >> Neri:" LV has something that no general in history (even history of magic) ever had: A direct channel to the mind of his key opponent. And this key opponent seems (for LV at least) to be very young and fragile, a most tempting target. So I think this war is going to get *very* personal, almost a duel between LV and Harry, and it will be literally a battle of minds."<< Jim: > True, and I didn't consider it. There are analogies to this > situation in terms of intelligence ? highly placed moles, for > example ? but not to LV's ability to attack Harry through their link. > > It's still true that preserving Harry is an absolute necessity, so > protecting his mind is a major part of that. Dumbledore is likely to have more success in teaching Harry Occlumency; Harry made progress even under Snape. Now Harry is under less stress, under a better teacher, so we have to hope it works. > > Your question about the Dursleys exposes a weakness in >Harry's defense: was it wise to send him home not knowing >Occulmency? But according to Dumbledore, Harry has something better than Occlumency: "[Voldemort] could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end it mattered not that you could not close your mind." And during all this conversation Harry is not once aware of the feeling he had before when he was in Dumbledore's presence...the desire to bite or attack him. The channel is closed, IMO. Voldemort will certainly do everything in his power to keep his unconscious thoughts from leaking into Harry's mind, and he can, I believe, no longer summon the will to put them there consciously--once burned, twice shy. The question is, will *Harry* be tempted to suppress his own power in order to open the channel again and find out what his enemy is up to? Pippin From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Sat Feb 14 17:37:24 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:37:24 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90949 Happy Valentine's Day everyone! Ok I have been thinking of this for a while, but keep forgetting to ask it. Aside from the charms put on 12 Grimmauld Place, I don't completely think it's hidden, because dear old Mother Black must have been close to her "good" relatives ie Narcissa and Bellatrix Black. In the wake of Sirius's death, I suppose that it might even be inherited by one of them, unless Sirius somehow had the means to give everything to Harry. What do you think? Sawsan From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Feb 14 17:59:17 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:59:17 -0000 Subject: Dark Ships / Bellatrix In-Reply-To: <20040213190924.74053.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90950 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shanna Yarbrough wrote: > In reading OotP again, I was thinking that Harry seemed a little too (and perhaps sexually) fascinated with Bellatrix, but thought I was completely hallucinating. If this nasty little idea has recieved post time here, could someone direct me to where I might read up on theories/rants/shocking innuendo? > Two recent threads you might try are: 86739 - Sexual temptation and 87171 - In bed with Harry Potter. Mind you, these are almost prudish compared to some of the ideas that can be found in the posts from the earlier days of the site. But you'll have to find a long-established member to guide you to the juicy bits. Strangely enough, they all seem to have been written by women. I wonder why? Kneasy From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Feb 14 18:07:13 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 18:07:13 -0000 Subject: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 The Sorting Hat's New Song In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" Marianne wrote: > > Chap. 11 ? The Sorting Hat's New Song > > > 5. Snape's presence in the Great Hall is not mentioned. Is Harry > not paying attention to his least favorite teacher because Hagrid's > continued absence and Umbridge's unexpected appearance are more > worrisome? > > 6. Some of the teachers are clearly annoyed, perturbed or > irritated at Umbridge. What do you suppose Snape's reaction was, > whether it reflected in his expression or not? These are good questions. Snape has always been at the feast before, except for the year Harry and Ron crashed into the tree. If there was a either a school related emergency or an Order related issue, he might have been absent. On the other hand, Hagrid was a more pressing concern and Harry had recently seen Snape at Headquarters. So he may not have paid attention to him at the feast. I tend to think he was there. I think his expression would have been inscrutable, as usual when he is being "official." Even later with most of his own house assisting her, he never goes out of his way to show support for her. Potioncat (who would like to thank the List elves for all the help and encouragement they've given!) From foxydoxy1 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 18:16:21 2004 From: foxydoxy1 at yahoo.com (FoxyDoxy) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:16:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Post # requests... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040214181621.67633.qmail@web60207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90952 Star Opal wrote: >Not long ago my computer decided to die on me and I lost >most of my files. >Could someone please send me the post numbers for the >analyzing posts on The >Chamber of Secrets and The Graveyard scenes and their >secret, sinister, >sexual subtext. >Also for the Crouch Novella. Doxy: I don't remember reading the The Chamber of Secrets post you're looking for, so I don't have the message number for you. But the Perversion In The Graveyard post by Elkins is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40405 And if it's the Crouch Family Saga, C.R.A.B. C.U.S.T.A.R.D (also by Elkins) your looking for, part one can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/47927 then it picks up with message #47929-47934 then skips to 47962, and ends with 47966. Hope that helps. Doxy, loving her photographic memory. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maidne at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 19:13:06 2004 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 19:13:06 -0000 Subject: Apparition & Fidelius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90953 Here's what I want to know about Fidelius: No one can see the house without the secret keeper's help, right? But they can see someone standing on the sidewalk, prior to approaching the house. At what point does the entering person disappear? When they step onto the front step, or not until the door is answered and they enter the house? Either way, it seems like someone, at some point, would see someone disappear off the street and wonder what was going on. A nosy muggle neighbor (like Petunia) might even notice this repeatedly, and that knowledge could be obtained and used by unscrupulous parties. Susan From tim at marvinhold.com Sat Feb 14 19:20:54 2004 From: tim at marvinhold.com (Tim) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 19:20:54 -0000 Subject: Fudge as a seafairing term Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90954 Recently I picked up a copy of Olivia A. Isil's "When A Loose Cannon Flogs a Dead Horse There's The Devil To Pay: Seafaring Words in Everyday Speech". She has an entry for Fudge which I will edit for brevity: --- The act of deceiving by adjusting or making do in a careless, clumsy or contrived manner. The orgin is thought to be a real-life sea captian surnamed Fudge as related by Benjamin Disraeli in his 1791 "Curiosities of Literature" There was one Capt. Fudge who upon his return form a voyage, how ill-fraught soever his ship, alwys brought home a good cargo of lies. So much so that now aboard ship the sailors upon hearing a great lie cry out "You fudge it" --- I so curious to see if Minister Fudge turns out to be a bumbling idiot or an active ally of Pettigrew or LV. From Tigerstormxx at aol.com Sat Feb 14 02:10:09 2004 From: Tigerstormxx at aol.com (james320152002) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 02:10:09 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90955 LizVega here: > Perhaps the reference to being outnumbered was to illustrate > just how many people were under his control at that time. That > could mean that the 400 or so followers were DE's, people like > Wormtail who working as Double Agents, people under the imperious > curse, dark creatures like dementors and giants, etc. I just can't > see there being 400 DE's- and only seeing a fraction of that number > in the graveyard in GOF. Well The Aurors were Authorized to use Unforgiveable curses so it wouldn't be totally out of the realm of possibility that many of them could have been victims to the Avada Kedavra. But yeah..400 is quite a large number. "james320152002" From Ali at zymurgy.org Sat Feb 14 19:49:05 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 19:49:05 -0000 Subject: Wotcher WAS How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90956 sawsan wrote:- > > BUt what is what cheer? > > how is it used? is it similar to any american saying? > > Pip!Squeak: > > It's 'cheer' in the sense of 'cheer up', or 'be cheerful'. The > extremely old fashioned phrase 'Be of good cheer' is also the same > sort of sense. And saying 'cheers' when you raise a glass *isn't* > shorthand for 'cheering loudly because I've finally got a drink' > [grin]. It's a wish that your fellow drinkers will be happy. > > So 'cheer' is happy, optimistic. 'What cheer' means 'What's > happening that's good?' > > Personally, I think 'Wotcher' is a phrase Tonks has picked up from > her muggle-born dad, as it isn't used much these days. She's trying to be muggleish, but using out-of-date slang because the WW is so separate from the muggle world. Nowadays, it's more normal to > use 'cheers', mostly as slang for 'thank-you', or 'good-bye'. Ali:- I did try not to join in this thread, but in the end, I couldn't help myself. I'm not sure how old fashioned "wotch'a" is. I used it a lot when I was growing up in London. It's a word I only associate with Londoners, and I stopped using it when I went to live in the North of England, and all my friends found the phrase hysterical. It was always used as a greeting, synonymous with "How's it going". So instead of saying "hello" or "hi" or "how's it going" when I met someone, I'd say "wotch'a" (that was how I knew to spell it). I've no idea how much it is still used in Walthamstow (the part of London I come from). I'll have to find out, because it makes me feel very old having the word described as out-of-date! One of my biggest disappointments with Stephen Fry's reading of OoP, was Tonks' accent. The accent he gives her, seems to place her around Lancashire, where I don't believe that phrase is used. I suppose it is possible that Tonks liked the phrase and added it to her vocabularly or the people I knew from Lancashire were simply not representative, and it is used in pockets of that county. Ali (Who really loves Stephen Fry's reading of the Harry Potter books with the one exception of Tonks' voice) From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 14 20:10:29 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:10:29 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flitwick as DADA professor? References: <1076709503.5658.28311.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001701c3f336$97fb05a0$d4e66151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 90957 Carol wrote: > I was rereading OoP last night and realized that the teacher giving > the DADA exam to Severus and MWPP in "Snape's Worst Memory" was > Professor Flitwick! If he was the DADA professor twenty-one years > earlier, why is he teaching Charms now? Granted, he seems much more IIRC, he was invigilating the written exam rather than administering the practical. If that's right, then he wouldn't need to be the DADA professor or even have a detailed knowledge of the subject, he's just there to make sure no one is cheating in the exam. (Thinking back to my own O level days, the exams were invigilated by any number of different teachers, not just the ones relevant to the subject). It could even have been the case that more than one exam was going on at the same time - perhaps the NEWT in Charms and the OWL in DADA? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 20:23:14 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:23:14 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90958 Pippin wrote: > But according to Dumbledore, Harry has something better than > Occlumency: "[Voldemort] could not bear to reside in a body so > full of the force he detests. In the end it mattered not that you > could not close your mind." And during all this conversation Harry > is not once aware of the feeling he had before when he was in > Dumbledore's presence...the desire to bite or attack him. > > The channel is closed, IMO. Voldemort will certainly do > everything in his power to keep his unconscious thoughts from > leaking into Harry's mind, and he can, I believe, no longer > summon the will to put them there consciously--once burned, > twice shy. > > The question is, will *Harry* be tempted to suppress his own > power in order to open the channel again and find out what his > enemy is up to? Neri: I'm not sure at all that the channel is closed. My impression was that Harry's heart can save him only from the possession part. The full citation of DD is: "That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you." Harry had his "heart" before he went to the MoM and it did not stop the leak from LV mind, nor the false information regarding Sirius, from getting to him. And I'm not sure even about the possession part. It seems that LV can't reside in Harry's mind for a long time, but he can get there for a second or two that might be enough to attempt a hit on DD or one of Harry's friends, especially when Harry is vulnerable (when he is angry or confused or asleep). LV will probably try to initiate mind contact, with or without attempts at possession. Being an expert legilimens, he believes that he has a huge advantage on Harry in this department, and he is likely to underestimate that force that Harry has. I think DD will teach Harry to block, or Harry won't have a single moment of rest, but I suspect the block won't be a total block. And as you mentioned, Harry might have his own reasons to initiate a contact. Neri From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 14 20:27:02 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:27:02 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90959 Snip of previous post and other questions> > Can Harry access and use LV's powers through the scar channel? (a > favorite pet theory of mine, see #89999) > > > I'm sure you can raise more questions and speculations. My point is > that the war might evolve according to very different scenarios, > depending on the answers. > > Neri I have a question. Since the first time I read OotP I wondered how they knew occlumency would work for Harry. We know that no one else has a scar like this (at least no one we have heard of), isn't it possible that regardless of how much Harry practiced Occlumency he would not be able to keep Voldemort out of his mind because their connection is different? I suspect that these lessons with Snape will accomplish something for Harry, primarily he learned how to use legilimency, and this will come in handy in the future. I also think he will know when someone else is trying to "get into his head" and be able to stop them. As someone else illuded to, I believe Harry learned how to get rid of Voldy by accident. All he has to do is think of something/someone who brings up a powerfully possitive feeling and Voldy will be out. A sort of mental Patronus. Sue, who is thinking homework will be much easier now all he has to do is look Hermione in the eye while she's thinking about potions.;) From elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com Sat Feb 14 13:43:48 2004 From: elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com (wmkgourlay) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 13:43:48 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90960 Just reading all the messages for this post about Luna. I just finished rereading the OoP, for the second time the other day. From a literary standpoint, it was time to introduce more characters (just for interest sake.) Also, I think Luna is an important chararter and the complete opposite of concrete, down to earth Hermoine. Luna although odd, seems to be a very knowledgeable and powerful witch. Harry and his friends need someone who can remain calm and be ready to act when things get out of hand. Part of the reason why Neville, (although greatly improved) could not get his spells to work in the Ministry was nerves. I don't think that Luna was encouraging Harry to go to the veil, she was just as interested in it as he was. Hermoine was not drawn to the veil, because she has never lost anyone she loves and has no desire to see or be with any of her dead relatives. Luna and Harry have a great desire to be reunited with their Mothers and Father (Harry). In the end, Luna will be important as she was in OoP. She will help Harry through some tough times and maybe teach Hermoine to be more open-minded. Beth From CindyJ2 at cox.net Sat Feb 14 18:50:04 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:50:04 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Susan Bones [was: Ship predictions (scenarios)] References: Message-ID: <001c01c3f32b$5bd38d00$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 90961 Hi again, Well, I looked all over the web and found a number of references to the interview where JK Rowling supposedly said that someone changed houses, but never the actual interview. A red herring, maybe? I even found a number of interviews, but never did she say anything like this...hmm... It does seem common knowledge that she did say this, though, if you look at other HP web boards. Anyhoo, sorry for the confusion. Cindy From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 14 21:02:51 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:02:51 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90962 Beth wrote: > snip Part of the reason why Neville, > (although greatly improved) could not get his spells to work in the > Ministry was nerves. > > I don't think that Luna was encouraging Harry to go to the veil, she > was just as interested in it as he was. Hermoine was not drawn to > the veil, because she has never lost anyone she loves and has no > desire to see or be with any of her dead relatives. Luna and Harry > have a great desire to be reunited with their Mothers and Father > (Harry). > > In the end, Luna will be important as she was in OoP. She will help > Harry through some tough times and maybe teach Hermoine to be more > open-minded. > > Beth Neville also had trouble because he was trying to use someone else's (Hermione's IIRC) wand when he was trying to get things done at the end...Seems like Neville has a whole lot of trouble with other people's wands. Good thing he gets his own soon (at least I hope). As far as Luna is concerned, she is definitely the anti-Hermione. As Luna is in Ravenclaw, she is smart and perhaps in the end they will both wind up a little closer to center due to the other's influence. I agree, there is no way Luna was egging Harry on to go through the veil. Sue From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 21:22:22 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:22:22 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90963 > Neri:" Can Harry access and use LV's powers through the scar channel? > (a favorite pet theory of mine, see #89999)" > Jim Ferer wrote: > In most ways Harry already does access LV's powers; he got many of > them from LV when he was attacked. You could say your hypothesis has > been true all along. Neri again: Actually the only power that we know Harry got from LV is parselmouth. We assume there are more because DD said "powers" in plural. It is possible that some of Harry's exceptional abilities in DADA also came from LV, but I couldn't find anything in canon that specifically suggests it. How many other powers Harry got from LV and what are they? JKR keeps the answer to this question well hidden in her sleeve. The answer my pet theory suggests is "All of them, and none". Neri From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 14 21:38:59 2004 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:38:59 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wotcher WAS How Many DEs Left? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <402E9573.3010709@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90964 Ali wrote: > One of my biggest disappointments with Stephen Fry's reading of OoP, > was Tonks' accent. The accent he gives her, seems to place her > around Lancashire, where I don't believe that phrase is used. I > suppose it is possible that Tonks liked the phrase and added it to > her vocabularly or the people I knew from Lancashire were simply not > representative, and it is used in pockets of that county. > > Ali digger, veering dangerously off-topic for hpfgu... Yep, that is the one thing I can't stand in Fry's OoP. Wotcha is, I mean was, (ahem, showing my age) a London expression. How he came up with Lancashire I can't imagine. It jars horribly with me. One must file it with the "french" Bellatrix Lestrange that Jim Dale imagined..... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 21:57:00 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:57:00 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Branded DE's and LV Soldiers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90965 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "james320152002" > James...: > > Well The Aurors were Authorized to use Unforgiveable curses so it > wouldn't be totally out of the realm of possibility that many of > them could have been victims to the Avada Kedavra. But yeah..400 is > quite a large number. > > "james320152002" bboy_mn: Of course, I can't say for sure, but I think we need to be careful about taking everything that is said in the book as a 100% literal fact. When people speak, they frequently generalize, and amoung other speech patterns, occassionally exaggerate to make a point. A good example, is Hagrid saying that there wasn't a Dark witch or wizard who didn't come from Slytherin. Well, we know, or can reasonably conclude that, that isn't true. Hagrid is simply making the point that a lot of Dark wizards were from Slytherin house. Also, although it isn't crystal clear in the books, but I think we need to make a distinction between an Officer in the DE Army and a DE Soldier in Voldemort's Army. I think the 30 to 40 DE's who showed up at the GoF graveyard were Officers; they were Voldemort's inner circle, and these and only these, plus a few more had the Dark Mark on them. There were many other 'soldiers' who were actively involved in helping Voldemort, and reasonably in a world of many thousands, the 'soldiers' could have numbered in the 100's. But I don't think these were all called to Voldemort's side everytime he touched the Dark Mark. That really doesn't seem very practical. It would make more sense to periodically call his generals together, strategize, then send them out to direct the troops. So I think we could take Lupin's 20-to-1 comment as an indicator that Voldemort had supporters numbering in the hundreds, but regardless of what he said, I don't think we should necessarily believe that it implies hundreds of 'branded'(inner circle) DE's. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 22:03:34 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:03:34 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones as a metaphor for movie contamination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90966 Jim Ferer (me):" Reason to Fight Movie Contamination #6: The girl who played Susan Bones is Chris Columbus's daughter." Sawsan:" UMM, yes Jim, we've established that. We were also saying how she has been mentioned in the book a few times and later, her Auntie Amelia Bones (who is part of the Wizengamot and was at Harry's hearing in OotP) told Susan that Harry could produce a corpreal Patronus, which excited her and she joined the DA. We were speculating that perhaps she will get a bigger role in later books, now that she has joined the DA and now that Voldie's return has been proven." Agreed, but the post I was responding to speculated that JKR had asked Steven Kloves to include Susan more. Too much has been made of JKR and Kloves's collaboration. Kloves isn't the director, and a lot can happen between his hand and the screen; so we can't infer that much from the inclusion or otherwise of elements in the movies. It's like the speculation that was going around that Hagrid was the one to die in OotP because Robbie Coltrane's contract was running out. We know the answer to that one. We saw more of several characters; in fact, the number of significant characters expanded dramatically. Jim Ferer From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 22:10:41 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:10:41 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90967 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > Happy Valentine's Day everyone! > > Ok I have been thinking of this for a while, but keep forgetting to > ask it. Aside from the charms put on 12 Grimmauld Place, I don't > completely think it's hidden, because dear old Mother Black must > have been close to her "good" relatives ie Narcissa and Bellatrix > Black. In the wake of Sirius's death, I suppose that it might even > be inherited by one of them, unless Sirius somehow had the means to > give everything to Harry. What do you think? > > Sawsan bboy_mn: Well, who inherits the Black Family Estate has been discussed at length here and in other groups. If you find it interesting, try using the search feature, such as it is, to find out more. Several very in depth discussion have occurred. On your first point about the Black house prior to Dumbledore Fidelius Charm, I'm sure the house was still well hidden, but possible to find. I'm sure rich people like the Blacks occassionally entertained their friends, held parties, had people over for tea, etc.... So, while the house was hidden, it was not impossible to find. Wizards who knew about the house, family, and friends had no trouble getting there or getting in. Now, that it is headquarters to The Order, I think Dumbledore has strengthen the security considerably. So, even those people who previously knew about the house, could no longer find it. Since we are on the subject, there are several members of the Black family or in-laws amoung the DE's. THEY do know that Sirius is dead. With the last pro-Dumbledore Black family member gone, and the last decendant of the Black family line gone, I wonder if it will suddenly occur to them that the old Black Manor house would make a good headquaters for Voldemort. It would seem a far more perfect house for Voldemort than for Dumbledore. Wouldn't that be a strange twist in the plot? Just a thought. bboy_mn From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 22:48:45 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:48:45 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90968 Severus Snape is the worst good guy in the HP universe, an intimidating, angry, misanthropic man. He appears to have been on the outside looking in since his own school days, an outcast and disliked figure who turned out to be on the right side when it came down to genuine evil. All this makes him a fascinating character. After OotP, I think I understand him at last. Snape, I believe, is a classic social phobic. How are social phobics made? One way is tension at home, and we see in Snape's memories that he had that, unable to bear the scenes of his father verbally abusing his mother. Cold, rejecting parenting is a major precursor to severe shyness, and Snape's home life makes that likely (but not certain). Another way to make a shy: not fitting in. Snape's always been described as this greasy, unkempt kid who showed up at school knowing far too much about the Dark Arts. He probably wasn't Mr. Popularity, was he? (Any parent who sends their kid to school unkempt is hurting that kid.) Brick on the load 3: bullying and humiliation. We don't know how much James and the others bullied him, but the Lawn Scene wasn't the first time, apparently, and they humiliated him pretty thoroughly. It's a scene to make you cringe, especially if you grew up shy like I did. Seeing friends being friends is painful to a shy, having to watch people enjoying what you don't have right in front of your face. When the leader of that group and big man on campus is your principal oppressor hatred is bound to follow. Now what happens? Your tormentor's son [Snape hasn't got a son, of course] shows up at school, already famous, with close friends from the first day! Puberty makes it much worse. Watching a couple hand-in-hand is a knife in the heart to the severely shy. Every pretty girl is just taunting the shy male, who often turns a particular rage towards females. [If you browsed over to the newsgroup alt.support.shyness you'd see misogyny and rage that would take your breath away.] Snape's misanthropy seems more general that that, but if you look at his behavior through the lens of severe shyness it starts making sense. He's been denied the pursuit of happiness, and it colors everything. Dumbledore was probably one of the few people ever to treat him with anything like real acceptance as opposed to the Death Eaters' phony acceptance. You can't avoid compassion for Snape after seeing the scenes of his earlier life. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 23:46:31 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 23:46:31 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement--a plot hole? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90969 In OotP, Draco and his friends enter the Room of Requirement after all of the DA members (aside from Harry) have skedaddled; they are looking for evidence of what went on and who was there. Lo, and behold, they discover Hermione's famous parchment bearing the signatures of all of the members of the DA. But isn't that just what the room would have contained? It's exactly what the Inquisatorial Squad REQUIRED in entering the room, yes? So why didn't Dumbledore simply point this out, rather than quitting to save Harry's skin? Unless, of course, Dumbledore simply decided it was time for him to make his dramatic exit.... From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Sun Feb 15 00:15:41 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 19:15:41 -0500 Subject: (FILK) The Head Boy Message-ID: <410-22004201501541628@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90970 It's a sad commentary on the state of my love life that I spend the evening of Valentine's Day writing Harry Potter filks... The Head Boy (A FILK to the tune of _Nature Boy_ from the musical _Moulin Rouge_) Dedicated to Red Scharlach (CoS, chapter 18) Dumbledore: (speaking) This is a song about Tom. The person named Tom has changed. (singing) He was Head Boy A clever and a handsome boy He left and traveled far and wide Along side The worst of our kind Few people know Of this info But power made him blind Then Tom performed Dark Magic spells and was transformed When at last he resurfaced Accomplished In all things maligned There was one thing he couldn't do And that was love For hate was what he knew -Gail B...Truth, Love, Beauty, Freedom! houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Feb 15 00:23:25 2004 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:23:25 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90971 "justcarol67" wrote: Carol: Well, okay, but my question is: If Flitwick is qualified to teach DADA, and he must be, given that he conducted the DADA OWL in Snape's fifth year, why doesn't DD just hire him for that position and get someone else to teach Charms? (He can't rehire Lupin now, but moving Flitwick to DADA would solve all the problems with that position.) Fred: Why does a person need to be "qualified to teach" a subject just to hand out a test and make sure no one is cheating? >From what I got out of the reading the scene, all Flitwick did was walk around making sure no one was cheating, and collected the papers at the end of the class. Anyone could have done this, even Filch could have done this, (maybe not the charm at the end to summon the test papers, but collect them from each student personally), but this would not make him "qualified to teach" DADA, or any thing else as far as that goes, would it? What part of the scene gave you the impression that Flitwick was their teacher and not just their supervisor? What part of the scene gave you the impression that Flitwick was a qualified DADA teacher? Admittedly I might have missed something, but just because he passed out a test, watched the students take a test, then collected the test does not make him a qualified DADA teacher. As far as I remember, Flitwick did not even grade the test, he just collected them. To me, and this is just my opinion, this makes him their supervisor during the exam. Fred From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 15 00:34:30 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:34:30 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement--a plot hole? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90972 "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > In OotP, Draco and his friends enter the Room of Requirement after > all of the DA members (aside from Harry) have skedaddled; they > are looking for evidence of what went on and who was there. Lo, > and behold, they discover Hermione's famous parchment bearing the > signatures of all of the members of the DA. > But isn't that just what the room would have contained? It's > exactly what the Inquisatorial Squad REQUIRED in entering the > room, yes? > So why didn't Dumbledore simply point this out, Pip!Squeak: I wondered that too. But I think the explanation is that the Room of Requirement *creates* nothing. It brings things from other places. In which case, the parchment would be genuine - whether it was originally in the room or not, there had to have existed a piece of parchment headed 'Dumbledore's Army', with all the member's signatures. Otherwise it couldn't be in the room at all. So it's still evidence. The Room of Requirement was simply helpfully collecting it for the Inquisitorial Squad. Pip!Squeak From starropal at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 01:06:16 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 19:06:16 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Post # requests... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90973 Thank you! I'm still looking for that Chamber one, but Yahoo search engine stinks. It was about the freudian-ness of it (if that jogs your memory) think it came out before the Perversion in GY one, maybe even by Elkins as well. Bless you and your photographic memory! Star Opal >Doxy: > >I don't remember reading the The Chamber of Secrets post you're looking >for, so I don't have the message number for you. But the Perversion In The >Graveyard post by Elkins is here: >Doxy, loving her photographic memory. _________________________________________________________________ Check out the great features of the new MSN 9 Dial-up, with the MSN Dial-up Accelerator. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Sun Feb 15 01:06:15 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:06:15 -0500 Subject: (FILK) Tom Riddle's Diary Message-ID: <410-2200420151615481@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 90974 Tom Riddle's Diary (A FILK by Gail B. to the tune of _One Day I'll Fly Away_ from the movie Moulin Rouge) Ginny: Inside you I write And it's all right How shall I begin To tell my pain? Tom Riddle's diary How did I acquire thee? I pour out my heart to you Now I feel a part of you I tell you my fears and dreams And you listen as my best friend Tom Riddle's diary You make no inquiry Patiently understanding And never do you condescend Tom Riddle's diary My diary -Gail B. houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Sun Feb 15 02:28:21 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:28:21 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20040215152349.00a99b70@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 90975 At 14:01 13/02/2004 -0800, you wrote: >Suzanne wrote > >Given that it was the OWLs test, I had supposed that Flitwick was there as a >procter for the test, and not as the professor for that area. After all, in >Harry's OWL tests, I don't believe that any of his professors were present. > >Suzanne Tanya now. I was reading the relevant chapters in OOTP today. Now, Harry's OWL exams. Professor McGonagall actually oversaw the Charms theory exam. However the Wizarding authority personnel oversaw and tested the practical exams. Not the theory ones. So as to the question first up. Flitwick could easily have been a teacher, but not in the subject he oversaw for the exam. It would of been different if he had been part of the testing for the practical exam(s) Tanya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From starropal at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 03:11:04 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:11:04 -0600 Subject: Filks - two mini ones... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90976 Filksthese are two little ones for Chamber of Secrets for... That Scar With Feeling by Star Opal; filked from Joss Whedon's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Once More With Feeling". Corrected spelling dedication to Caius Marcius Filch's Lament To the tune of _Dawn's Lament_ THE SCENE: Chamber of Secrets; Chapter 8, The Death Day Party: We slowly close up on a sniffling figure on its hands and knees. A flu stricken Filch grumbles while cleaning up frog brains. Filch: Those little brats don't even notice... Those little brats don't even care. ~~~~~ Basilisk Dance/Grr Argh To the tune of _Broom Dance/Grr Argh_ THE SCENE: Chamber of Secrets; Chapter 17, The Heir of Slytherin: The Basilisk having just been called by Tom Riddle, tap dances... As well as a basilisk *can* tap dance. It then turns towards Harry... Basilisk: Grr! Argh! _________________________________________________________________ Keep up with high-tech trends here at "Hook'd on Technology." http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx From jrc241 at psu.edu Sun Feb 15 06:20:41 2004 From: jrc241 at psu.edu (pennstgrle) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:20:41 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90977 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: Neri Wrote: > I'm not sure at all that the channel is closed. My impression was > that Harry's heart can save him only from the possession part. The > full citation of DD is: > > "That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he > could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. > In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It > was your heart that saved you." > > Harry had his "heart" before he went to the MoM and it did not stop > the leak from LV mind, nor the false information regarding Sirius, > from getting to him. And I'm not sure even about the possession part. > It seems that LV can't reside in Harry's mind for a long time, but he > can get there for a second or two that might be enough to attempt a > hit on DD or one of Harry's friends, especially when Harry is > vulnerable (when he is angry or confused or asleep). > > LV will probably try to initiate mind contact, with or without > attempts at possession. Being an expert legilimens, he believes that > he has a huge advantage on Harry in this department, and he is likely > to underestimate that force that Harry has. I think DD will teach > Harry to block, or Harry won't have a single moment of rest, but I > suspect the block won't be a total block. And as you mentioned, Harry > might have his own reasons to initiate a contact. > > Neri Jaimee: But your mental/emotional/loving "heart" isn't found in your physical "heart." Love is a psychological construct. Think about it, people who have heart transplants love their family just the same even though their old physical hearts have been removed and replaced. So Harry's heart has always been in his head. And the reason it never blocked out Voldemort before was, well, he wasn't exactly using it as a weapon before or even feeling love strongly before. Think about Harry's emotional state all year--ANGRY! Anger is a comfortable medium for Voldemort. And think about the time the snake rose up in Harry to bite DD....Harry was scared and sick and confused and ashamed and *angry* DD wouldn't look him in the eyes. No love to block Voldemort out there!!! Plus, Harry never really *wanted* to block Voldemort out! Harry *wanted* to see what was lying in the DoM. So basically Harry's mood all year was conducive to welcoming Voldemort in! Personally, I believe that this coming summer Harry is going to need more work at using *his weapon* or whatever else it takes to block Voldemort out. Also, I think Dumbledore and everyone else have learned their lesson about keeping Harry shut out of what's going on. Harry now knows his destiny, and it would be wise for DD and the others to start preparing him for it full-force. I personally think Harry has a lot to learn before facing Voldemort again! No one can say he's physically or mentally or in any way at all ready to defeat Voldemort! Luck isn't going to win this for him in the end, I don't think. Harry has always taken burdens to face and defeat evil upon himself, but this is different. This is the first time he was actually told, "It's up to you. No one else can do it." Harry is going to need help preparing for this. I think that Harry is going to be getting a lot of visitors in the summer of Book 6. But first of all, I think once Harry has healed enough on the inside, he will start visiting Mrs. Figg regularly-- not only to find out what's going on in the WW, but just as much to have some relief from the real world and life with the Dursley's. And I think that, if not DD personally, Lupin and some of the others (and maybe even Snape--who knows!) will meet up with Harry there, to work with him or just be there for him. But I think it would be prudent for DD to start taking a more active role in teaching Harry. DD should now see that Harry needs him personally. I think this coming summer is going to be a lot different for our Harry! Better late than never, I guess! Lots of love to you all on Valentine's Day! Jaimee From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Feb 15 07:28:01 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 07:28:01 -0000 Subject: Wotcher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > ladyramkin2000 wrote: > It's hardly ever used now, so I would agree that Tonks has > picked it up from her Muggle dad and thinks it is the essence of cool. > Berit: > It IS the essence of cool... when Tonks is using it :-) In the > Norwegian language (I imagine it is the same with the English > language) there are plenty of examples of people picking up old > words/sayings and turning them into cool, "modern" words. For an old > word to be "re-invented" and becoming cool it is enough for someone > cool to start using it. And Tonks is cool :-) I'm sure Harry and his > peers don't think Tonks is daft for using "wotcher". They would, > though, if it was Luna who started using it LOL. > Geoff: I really don't think that your evaluation of "hardl ever usd now" is accurate. I lived in London for over 40 years and, although not a "native", used the greeting and still do, even in West Somerset. My two sons, who are hardly older generation, also tend to use it..... Geoff (Viewing things from a great distance in Malta) From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Feb 15 00:41:00 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:41:00 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90979 Fred writes: As far as I > remember, Flitwick did not even grade the test, he just collected > them. To me, and this is just my opinion, this makes him their > supervisor during the exam. > I was surprised to see Flitwick in the memory as well. But my feeling was that he would have been a member of the MoM team who came to test the students. What I wondered was, when did he become a faculty member at Hogwarts? We didn't find out when Umbridge was there because she visited Charms when Harry wasn't in his class. Did he sign on after Snape? Would that explain why Snape seems to be senior to Flitwick and Sprout? We didn't find out when she began teaching either. By the way, after Minerva was sent to St. Mungos, did Umbridge appoint a deputy? Potioncat (who still isn't convinced Snape wants DADA, but who has an open mind) "potioncat" From teshara at yahoo.com Sun Feb 15 01:32:06 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 01:32:06 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement--a plot hole? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90980 "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > Lo, and behold, they discover Hermione's famous parchment > bearing the signatures of all of the members of the DA. > > But isn't that just what the room would have contained? It's exactly > what the Inquisatorial Squad REQUIRED in entering the room, yes? > > So why didn't Dumbledore simply point this out, rather than quitting > to save Harry's skin? I always thought it was a magical holodeck. If it wasn't tangible it wouldn't be able to leave the room. ~ Chelle http://www.fanfiction.net/~teshara From CindyJ2 at cox.net Sun Feb 15 03:20:46 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:20:46 -0600 Subject: Apparition & Fidelius References: Message-ID: <004c01c3f372$b3dcf710$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 90981 Susan wrote in 90953: >Either way, it seems like someone, at some point, would see >someone disappear off the street and wonder what was going on. A >nosy muggle neighbor (like Petunia) might even notice this >repeatedly, and that knowledge could be obtained and used by >unscrupulous parties. I kind of liken the fidelius with platform 9 3/4, or St. Mungos. Wizards and witches go there all the time, but muggles don't ever notice. That's a running thread throughout the books--muggles will go to great lengths to ignore magic, even when it's right in front of them. Moreover, even if a wizard *did* notice some odd happenings, they wouldn't be able to find the house unless they were given the address by the secret-keeper. In other words, DE could roam Grimmuald Place all day and night and never find #12, even if they suspected it was near. Cindy From catlady at wicca.net Sun Feb 15 09:55:21 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:55:21 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts letter/Perkins/'tolerant' Hufflepuffs?/Animagus Cat/Animagus Sex Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90982 Sawsan wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90599 : <> Me, I imagine that if Muggle parents were opposed to their magic child going to Hogwarts, then Dumbledore or his helpers would put spells on the parents to make them less resistant. Not Imperius -- that's an Unforgiveable -- but maybe Confundus to make them believe that Hogwarts specialized in something they liked more than magic, or to make them believe that they like magic ... his motive would be for the child's sake, to let him/her realise hiser potential, not so much to protect the worlds from untrained magic. I mean, all the people who don't want to allow Muggle-borns to attend Hogwarts (from Salazar Slytherin to Lucius Malfoy) must think that untrained magic people are not a danger ... maybe the magic goes away over time if it isn't regularly exercised ... Bohcoo wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90802 : << (What a riot -- purrfectly -- hope Perkins isn't allergic!) >> How can he be, when his name is Purrrkins? << By the way, while we are on the subject of Mr. Perkins, did the books mention somewhere that he is a warlock? >> In CoS, the chapter in which Weasleys in Flying Car rescue Harry from Dursleys (chapter 3?), when Ron is telling Harry about Arthur's job: "Dad was going frantic - it's only him and an old warlock called Perkins in the office". My theory is that "warlock" is the wizarding word for a politician, and Perkins being "an old warlock" means he's a retired (defeated) politicians whose non-retired buddies used their clout to get him a secure job. Angela P wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90821 : << Maybe this is done to illustrate Hufflepuffs as accepting, non-discriminatory, or open-minded. >> It seems to me that Hufflepuffs have not particularly been depicted as accepting, non-discriminatory, or open-minded. In CoS, Ernie Macmillan convinced his Housemates that Harry was the attacker with this logic: "Hannah," said the stout boy solemnly, "he's a Parselmouth. Everyone knows that's the mark of a Dark wizard. Have you ever heard of a decent one who could talk to snakes? They called Slytherin himself Serpent-tongue." Sawsan wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90823 : << Maybe the person becomes the animal, for lack of a better phrase, that is inside of them, or at least what would fit them best. >> Yes! JKR has confirmed in interviews that the Animagus doesn't get to choose his/her animal form, but instead the animal form is a reflection of his/her personality. http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2 000_Live_Chat_America_Online.htm Q: Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality? JKR: Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach! http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Q: If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? A: I'd like to be an otter -- that's my favourite animal. It would be depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something. << McGonnagall is very strict and proper, but who knows if there really isn't a pussycat deep down inside. >> I think McGonagall is an excellent cat, very private and dignified in public, and all the thnings that Frost Indri wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90840 and I suppose she has a feline appreciation of sensual (which doesn't necessarily mean sexual) pleasure when she's in her own living quarters ... I imagine her luxuriating soaking in a hot bath the way cats luxuriate sleeping in a sunny spot ... purring about a backrub .. SnapessRaven in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90610 started the thread on: << Do animagi maintain their human gender? I mean, do men always change into male animals, and women vice versa?>> I think it is an absolute that Animagi maintain their human gender, thus proving that male Crookshanks is not female Mrs Figg as an Animagus. << Are animagi, while in their animal form, able to reproduce? >> I have very firm and even less canonical opinions on this: YES! I say, the male Animagus in animal form can inpregnate a female of that animal, whether the female is a natural animal or an Animagus, and the male Animagus in human form can inpregnate a human female. The female Animagus in animal form can conceive with a male of that animal, whether a natural animal or an Animagus in animal form, and can conceive with a human male when in human form. And one of the *many* ways in which it is better to be an Animagus than a werewolf is that, in my universe, the Animagus can carry a pregnancy to term and the werewolf can't. The female werewolf's fetus is killed by the stress of the monthly transformation. But the female Animagus's fetus transforms safely whenever she transforms. (Even if she's a cat when she conceives, she drops only a human number of eggs ... can you imagine a poor sow Animagus with twenty fetuses in human form?) Her child is a human if she (and it) are in human form when she goes into labor, and an unusually intelligent animal if she (and it) are in animal form when she goes into labor. Her pregnancy advances at human rate when in human form and at animal rate when in animal form, so a cat Animagus could reduce her pregnancy to six weeks by spending it all in cat form, but then she runs the risk of labor taking her by surprise in cat form and dooming her child to be a mere Beast. The child does not inherit shape-shifting ability: unlike Metamorphmagery, it is learned not born. Dave Hardenbrook wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90784 : << Assuming the theories that Sirius is gay are correct, is he still gay as a dog, or might he have mated with a bitch (a canine one, not Umbridge)? >> I've been a Sirius/Remus shipper since forever, but I always figured Sirius as bi, not gay. I'm sure that as a naturally horny and proudly rule-breaking teenager, he would have tried having dog sex with an available female dog at least once (was there an outbreak of furry black puppies in Hogsmeade?). Whether he did it again would depend on whether it was fun ... Animagi retain their human minds and thus would not be biologically controlled by the scent of a bitch in heat ... From CindyJ2 at cox.net Sun Feb 15 03:24:27 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:24:27 -0600 Subject: Fudge as a seafaring term References: Message-ID: <005301c3f373$37ac4050$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 90983 Here, to "fudge" something means to make it up a bit. It's a school term, somewhere between outright cheating and copying. For example, you might fudge an answer a little to make it look better. I've always thought that name was very appropriate for the MOM. He's worried about his popularity, but not as much about the real work he does. He asks DD for advice, but only takes it if it makes him look competent. He avoids making any tough decisions. In other words, he fudges everything. Cindy From CindyJ2 at cox.net Sun Feb 15 03:29:30 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:29:30 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II References: Message-ID: <005a01c3f373$ec4ffec0$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 90984 Hi all, J'ever notice that DD lets important information "slip" out? For example, he told Harry about the Room of Requirements, without actually mentioning it. ----- We know that no one else has a scar like this (at least no one we have heard of), isn't it possible that regardless of how much Harry practiced Occlumency he would not be able to keep Voldemort out of his mind because their connection is different? Remember when DD said that he had a scar on his knee that was a perfect map of the London underground? I've often wondered if that scar was meaningful somehow... Maybe DD was able to defeat his dark wizard by use of the scar, or maybe it gives him insight into Harry's scar because he also has one. At any rate, it seems when DD lets something slip it's for a purpose... The Room of requirements, his brother and goat link, socks, the chocolate frogs; I bet they are all clues to something, and his knee scar fits this category. Cindy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cmbrichards at aol.com Sun Feb 15 04:41:10 2004 From: cmbrichards at aol.com (cmbrichards) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:41:10 -0000 Subject: A Question about Werewolves/Lupin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90985 There is something that was bothering me about the whole Lupin/Werewolf thing, and I passed this off as maybe "not in J.K.R.'s world," but now that I see this, I am not too sure. We know that in POA the book, we are told that Lupin is a werewolf, and that he was bitten when he was younger. My problem with this had always been, why did he age? Traditional gypsy lore would tell us that werewolves do not age from the time they are bitten. Sort of like a vampire not aging from the time he/she is turned. But we well know that Lupin has been aging, rather rapidly from Harry's descriptions of him, from book 3 to book 5 anyway you look at it. Now if he was a werewolf back in the "Marauder Days," how is it that he has managed to show a normal or even slightly accelerated aging process? Unless he wasn't bitten at all...Unless it was a curse of some sort. Ok, like I said, I blew this one of due to the fact that this septology is not based on any know "fact" or real life story, but in the complete control of the author, who may have chosen not to take it this route.BUT , now that I have seen a copy of the movie's DADA page on werewolves, I am wondering if my gut instinct on this wasn't right all along. If J.K. was the one who gave them the info they put on the DADA page, then maybe this is another one of her subtle hints as to what is going on. Gypsy lore does talk about a curse to turn one into a werewolf, but I am wondering if this is something she did, or something WB did. Lupin, at this point in the septology, is the last favorable link to Harry's father for Harry. I would hate to see him wind up being the greatest disappointment of all. If this information is from J.K., it leaves the door wide open for Lupin to have been cursed, and for that person who cursed him to have a lot of control over the outcome of Lupin's actions. What better way to control someone, then by turning them into a monster all would fear, making him a social outcast, and offering to lift that curse once he has done what you asked of him. Ok, all thoughts, ideas, and opinions are welcome on this, as I simply do not want to believe this. To view the pages from the movie's DADA book, and a transcript of the words posted, use the link below. http://hp4unews.blogspot.com/2004_02_01_hp4unews_archive.html#10762697 5420360745 Christal-Who simply cannot believe Lupin is a fink. From phantomchick03 at aol.com Sun Feb 15 04:43:36 2004 From: phantomchick03 at aol.com (phantomchick03 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 23:43:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flitwick or Snape as DADA? Message-ID: <24051A3A.52FBB09C.1136A2F8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90986 I'd like to take the opportunity to both introduce myself, as I'm a fairly new member, and address this post. I've just been lurking for a few weeks now, getting a feel for the topics and opinions of the board. I was pleasantly surprised at the intelligence of the members of this board. Everyone who's posted is extremely well-written and knowledgeable about the Potterverse. The discussions flying about this list have been extremely eye-opening to possibilities I haven't even considered. Just wanted to say that to someone besides my computer. ;) Carol said: Not to get sidetracked here, but I also wonder when and why Quirrell was first hired. Was it at the same time as Snape? I get the idea that he's at least a few years younger than Snape and that someone else held the job before him, but if so it couldn't have been Flitwick if there was a DADA vacancy at the time Snape was hired. Adri here: Not to be nitpicky or anything, but I don't remember SS saying anything about how long Quirell had been teaching. I assumed (and I could be wrong) that Quirell had been recently hired by Dumbledore, possibly just that summer. If I'm right, he couldn't possibly have been hired at the same time as Snape, who says in OotP (Ch. 17, pg 363): "Fourteen years", when asked by Umbridge how long he's been teaching at Hogwarts. So if Snape's been teaching since 1982-1983, Quirell wouldn't have been the person to get the DADA job over him. My take on the situation is that Flitwick was only monitoring the test ('proctoring', I'd also call it), and wasn't the DADA teacher. I have no doubt that he'd probably do a better job than nearly all of the 5 teachers we've seen in the books, but Dumbledore's probably got a good reason for keeping him as Charms teacher. If he were really that replaceable, we'd be having revolving Charms professors. I also think that Snape doesn't really want the DADA job. It's more of a useful cover as a Death Eater if the rest think that he's got a yen for the Dark Arts. The rumor might have had some truth to it when he first began teaching, but Dumbledore, for whatever reason, wouldn't let him take the DADA job. That reason probably was something along the lines of keeping him away from an addiction, like keeping a recovering alcoholic away from a bar. Dumbledore "suggested" Snape take the Potions Master position for a few reasons: 1) You can't deny that he's talented at the subject if he can make both Veritaserum and Wolfsbane Potion. 2) How many more cauldrons would be blown up by people who aren't Neville if Snape weren't around to frighten the precision into them? 3) See above 'alcoholic' theory. Anyway, I'll be slinking back to lurkdom. Just wanted to give my $.02. ~Adri~ Who's still wondering how Neville manages to be so inept at Potions, yet so good in Herbology and DADA . . . From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 09:23:19 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:23:19 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Attack on Lily and James Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90987 Hey everyone Quick question on the events of Lily and James's death. If the Weasley twins can learn how to Apparate and can do so in Fidelius charmed house (the order's headquarters), why can't Lily and James merely Apparate to Harry's side and then Apparate out of the house? Or if they cannot Apparate out of the house, why not Apparate to the front door and then go outside and Apparate. I am presuming that Lily and James could Apparate, but the only means we are given to stop someone from Apparate is spell DD uses in the MOM against the DEs. We are not told that Voldemort used this spell on Lily and James, but granted we still do not know exactly how the attack went down. If you can just Apparate in the first pace why not just go on the run? We are not told if there is a way to track people who Apparate. If there were no way to track them, wouldn't it be safer to just go on the run and Apparate every few days? Why keep yourself in one place? Thanks John From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sun Feb 15 10:33:12 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:33:12 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement--a plot hole? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90988 ADVERTISEMENT "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > In OotP, Draco and his friends enter the Room of Requirement after > all of the DA members (aside from Harry) have skedaddled; they > are looking for evidence of what went on and who was there. Lo, > and behold, they discover Hermione's famous parchment bearing the > signatures of all of the members of the DA. > But isn't that just what the room would have contained? It's > exactly what the Inquisatorial Squad REQUIRED in entering the > room, yes? > So why didn't Dumbledore simply point this out, Pip!Squeak: I wondered that too. But I think the explanation is that the Room of Requirement *creates* nothing. It brings things from other places. In which case, the parchment would be genuine - whether it was originally in the room or not, there had to have existed a piece of parchment headed 'Dumbledore's Army', with all the member's signatures. Otherwise it couldn't be in the room at all. So it's still evidence. The Room of Requirement was simply helpfully collecting it for the Inquisitorial Squad. ------------------------ Arya now: Better yet, why didn't Harry and the DA just think to "require" a secure place to hide and not be found? "Require" that Umbridge and her squad not even find the door. Fred and George said they'd found the room once in a dire need of an escape from Filch. What happens when the room has two conflicting demands? Is it first come-first serve? Does the semi- sentient Hogwarts decide who it wants to help? And if it is as it seems that the room simply nicks stuff from about the castle to become the items in the room, then isn't that dangerous? Say....Draco Ferret Boy Malfoy wandered into the room and wanted an Invisibility Cloak...and guess what? He got Harry's. Harry's cloak is now gone and Draco, legitimately so it seems to him, got a free Invisibility Cloak. You *can* take things out of the room--we see Umbridge waving about the evidence she required to implicate Harry and the DA when she's in DD's office. This is a bit scary to me. It doesn't just use stuff that's sitting about unclaimed and unwanted--it *pulls* and *steals* stuff that belongs to people such as Hermione's list. Unless...it does seem weird to me that Moody (the real one) would leave his Foe-Glass and other misc Dark Detectors behind after leaving Hogwarts. Perhaps...maybe Hogwarts can recreate imitations or temporary replicas of things that have spent a certain amount of time within the castle??? Hmm, then maybe one could get a slew of Invisibility Cloaks--the Order could sure use those. Maybe Hermione should scrap the Library from now on and just go to the RoR to do assignments and let the Room get the books she "needs". Save time on research and searching for books, I bet... Maybe it'd even get her copies of other relevant essays and of teachers' answer keys to tests, copies of exams in advance... Arya From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sun Feb 15 10:40:49 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:40:49 -0000 Subject: Animagus Shagging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90989 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: << Are animagi, while in their animal form, able to reproduce? >> I have very firm and even less canonical opinions on this: YES! I say, the male Animagus in animal form can inpregnate a female of that animal, whether the female is a natural animal or an Animagus, and the male Animagus in human form can inpregnate a human female. The female Animagus in animal form can conceive with a male of that animal, whether a natural animal or an Animagus in animal form, and can conceive with a human male when in human form. ------------------------------ Soooo, Harry might have some half-brother or half-sister deer out there somewhere? I sure hope Grawp didn't snack on then while he was in the forest....We'll know for sure if we see some buck with untidy antlers.... Man, I wonder if Harry (or if James or Sirius or Remus) ever ate Venison....how....disturbing. Arya From irina_l_ at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 11:10:58 2004 From: irina_l_ at hotmail.com (ilubom) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:10:58 -0000 Subject: More metamorphmagi. (Was Is Hermione learning to be an animagus ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90990 Sawsan here: > > I personally think there are enough animagi, though I would love to > see more metamorphmagi in the series. Irina: I think Snape may be a metamorphmagus. That could explain how he manages to spy on DEs. I do believe that there will be more metamorphagi and he/she/they will play an important role. It would be consistent with JKR's pattern of introducing seemingly irrelevant concepts in one book only to have them become very important later on. The fact that Tonks is a metamorphmagus was not particularly important in OoP - I think the point of the part of the plot was to introduce metamorphmagi because they will be important later on. From elihufalk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 15 11:46:12 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:46:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apparition & Fidelius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040215114612.21973.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90991 Dhyana wrote: I also noticed that nobody used floo powder to travel to and from the house, but they did use it to communicate with eachother. It seems to me that the safest thing would have been to disconnect the house from the floo network completely, seeing as the Order has "more reliable means of communication" (but that would have spoiled the plot of the book!). Perhapse you can reduce your connection to heads only :) My answer (Elihu): Hogwarts also has protection (for example, you can't apparate into it); when the students were discussing (PoA) how Black had gotten into Hogwarts, no one suggested Floo powder; Hermione could have probably known about such a way if it was possible. In addition, if Floo Powder could be used to get into Hogwarts, why didn't Black simply use it to go staight into Gryffindor Tower? In GF, we learn that the Gryffindor fire is connected to the network, and can be used for communication; Black knew it, in fact. I say that there is some spell (used both at Hogwarts and at the headquarters of the order) to prevent entering certain places by Floo Powder. -Elihu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elihufalk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 15 10:48:31 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (elihufalk) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:48:31 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90992 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: > I have been re-reading PoA and a new thought occurred to me. DD > performed the Fidelius Charm right? Why wouldn't he testify to > clear Black's name? DD presumably would know who the secret keeper > is, because it is necessary to the Charm to have a secret keeper. > If DD can clear Snape's name by testifying why can he not clear > Sirius' name? DD should have testified as soon as Sirius was caught. > Why did he not? There may have been the problem of all the people > Peter killed, but Sirius could have explained about MWPP's > transformations. Surely a life sentence in Azkaban would have been > more than enough reason to expose his illegal transformations and > his friends. Sorry if this has been discussed before, if so then > someone please tell me how to find the previous conversation. Maybe Dumbledore didn't know! Maybe you could have a long series of people, each knowing the next in line, but no-one beyond, and the last be the secret-keeper, if the first is the person proforming it. Elihu From Ali at zymurgy.org Sun Feb 15 12:40:56 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:40:56 -0000 Subject: A Question about Werewolves/Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90993 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cmbrichards" wrote: >>> There is something that was bothering me about the whole Lupin/Werewolf thing, and I passed this off as maybe "not in J.K.R.'s world," but now that I see this, I am not too sure. We know that in POA the book, we are told that Lupin is a werewolf, and that he was bitten when he was younger. My problem with this had always been, why did he age? Traditional gypsy lore would tell us that werewolves do not age from the time they are bitten. Sort of like a vampire not aging from the time he/she is turned. But we well know that Lupin has been aging, rather rapidly from Harry's descriptions of him, from book 3 to book 5 anyway you look at it. Now if he was a werewolf back in the "Marauder Days," how is it that he has managed to show a normal or even slightly accelerated aging process? Unless he wasn't bitten at all...Unless it was a curse of some sort. BUT , now that I have seen a copy of the movie's DADA page on werewolves, I am wondering if my gut instinct on this wasn't right all along. If J.K. was the one who gave them the info they put on the DADA page, then maybe this is another one of her subtle hints as to what is going on.>>> Ali responds: I was also really interested in the PoA prop. But, at this stage, I would have to argue that the prop is not "canon". We have no means of knowing whether JKR "okayed" it before it was used as a prop. I thought that there was some evidence that the material had in fact been used in a previous film. Thus, it could perhaps have been reused by people not as LOONy as ourselves. JKR has shown that she is quite able to adapt folklore, so it is possible that her werewolves can age. Lupin is so often described as pre-maturely aged. He loses weight following painful transformations, and looks older. If he were the traditional werewolf, he would still be a young child. No, his circumstances just don't fit the description of the prop. I did find the idea of almost enternal damnation following the biting of another human, very interesting. In PoA, Lupin alluded to some things being worse than death. I had always taken that to mean "The Kiss", which would seem to deprive victims of an after- life. But, the curse of the werewolf, if this evidence were true, would also fit this definition. IMO This would make the rationale for people's hatred of werewolves far more understandable. If Lupin lives in terror that he might bite another human, that would make his existence, and the risk Dumbledore took in having him at Hogwarts, far more serious. Not only would he create another werewolf, but he would also face a terrible future. I was interested that the prop had a section on the "Silver Bullet myth". Whilst it would be great to think that this was a JKR hint that Lupin cannot be killed by a silver bullet, and perhaps by extension, the Silver Hand of Pettigrew, I would imagine that this is a leap too far. Unless JKR has created plot inconsistencies with her depiction of Lupin, I would argue that the PoA Prop is not canon. I do now wonder though, how Lupin can be killed? Is he mortal as we know it, or not? Ali From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Feb 15 13:30:47 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:30:47 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90994 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Severus Snape is the worst good guy in the HP universe, an > intimidating, angry, misanthropic man. He appears to have been on > the outside looking in since his own school days, an outcast and > disliked figure who turned out to be on the right side when it came > down to genuine evil. All this makes him a fascinating character. > > After OotP, I think I understand him at last. Snape, I believe, is a > classic social phobic. > Kneasy: I'm a Snape-aholic myself, but IMO trying to slot him into a profiling pigeon-hole is premature. There are too many blanks and alternative interpretations for what we *think* we know of his past. You need to define the term 'social phobic'. Our Sevvy does very well in social gatherings - generally by manipulating them for his own purposes. He is extremely self-confident and professionally competent. His contempt for others gives him an edge that few can blunt and he uses it with skill. I also seem to remember that someone in canon (Sirius?) states that Snape's friends nearly all ended up as DEs. So the 'outcast' label may need modification. Jim: > How are social phobics made? One way is tension at home, and we see > in Snape's memories that he had that, unable to bear the scenes of > his father verbally abusing his mother. Cold, rejecting parenting is > a major precursor to severe shyness, and Snape's home life makes that > likely (but not certain). > Kneasy: I'm in a very small minority in this, but I'm not so sure that this memory is of his parents; I think Snape is the adult, that what we see is Snape's family and that they are the reason he splits from Voldemort. And if there's one thing Snape isn't, it's shy. Jim: > Another way to make a shy: not fitting in. Snape's always been > described as this greasy, unkempt kid who showed up at school knowing > far too much about the Dark Arts. He probably wasn't Mr. Popularity, > was he? (Any parent who sends their kid to school unkempt is hurting > that kid.) Kneasy: He's so described by his 'enemies'. OK, we all know he has lank, greasy hair - but unkempt? I presume your're on about the grey underwear, that was exposed after end of term exams and I doubt his parents had any influence over his personal hygiene once he got on the Hogwarts Express. Jim: > Brick on the load 3: bullying and humiliation. We don't know how much > James and the others bullied him, but the Lawn Scene wasn't the first > time, apparently, and they humiliated him pretty thoroughly. It's a > scene to make you cringe, especially if you grew up shy like I did. Kneasy: Yes, he does appear to be a target for James and Sirius, but he's not helpless - he uses a spell to draw blood from James's face. This may be just an episode in an on-going war, but the way Sirius blusters in the face of Snape's tauntings in Grimmaud Place, plus the fact that he was supposed to know so much Dark Magic at school, adds weight to the idea that he would be a handful for any of the Marauders on their own. Jim: > Snape's misanthropy seems more general that that, but if you look at > his behavior through the lens of severe shyness it starts making > sense. He's been denied the pursuit of happiness, and it colors > everything. Dumbledore was probably one of the few people ever to > treat him with anything like real acceptance as opposed to the Death > Eaters' phony acceptance. > > You can't avoid compassion for Snape after seeing the scenes of his > earlier life. Kneasy: Yep, he probably is a misanthrope; so what? So am I on even dates (on odd dates I'm a cynic), I'm of a solitary disposition, dislike socialising and would prefer all children to be locked away until they can conduct an adult conversation. And guess what? I'm contented. So is Snape IMO, *except* he has an agenda to sort out with Voldy. Snape is *not* good. He has joined the Order for his own reasons and they are nothing to do with spreading sweetness and light. They are to do with revenge. All his natural friends and allies are on the other side, so why isn't he with them? He is in the Order, where nobody likes him and he doesn't like them. Don't you think that's a bit odd? He's only tolerated because DD insists and only DD knows why Snape is so trustworthy in his opposition to Voldy. It's something so powerful and all-consuming that despite his past, despite his attitude, despite his natural inclinations, he can be trusted *totally*. I like Snape, but I have no compassion for him at all. I think that if it was offered he would respond with icy contempt. He doesn't want to make friends, he's not interested in healing old wounds or making amends. He'll nurse a grudge 'till it dies of old age, then dig it up and do it all over again. No, 'social phobic' is not it; rather he gives the impression of a tightly focussed, calculating individual, unconcerned about the opinions of others and who sees the Order as a means to an end. The closest literary parallel I can come up with is Capt. Ahab. He'll probably come to the same sort of end, too. From jferer at yahoo.com Sun Feb 15 14:07:46 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:07:46 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90996 Kneasy:" I'm a Snape-aholic myself, but IMO trying to slot him into a profiling pigeon-hole is premature. There are too many blanks and alternative interpretations for what we *think* we know of his past." We've known Snape for five years now, and I only came to my impression after OotP. No one knows everything about anyone, but I think we've seen enough to form some ideas of what makes him tick. Kneasy:" He is extremely self-confident and professionally competent. His contempt for others gives him an edge that few can blunt and he uses it with skill. " We don't see any signs of self-confidence. Being professionally competent, which he is, does not exclude social phobia at all. Kneasy:" I'm in a very small minority in this, but I'm not so sure that this memory is of his parents; I think Snape is the adult, that what we see is Snape's family and that they are the reason he splits from Voldemort. And if there's one thing Snape isn't, it's shy. " You have to jump through a lot of hoops to interpret that memory that way; there's no reason to believe it. Snape is remembering some of the pain of his life. Aggression is not the antithesis of shyness, far from it. It is sometimes a symptom of having seen that's how life works and the lack of social skills to come up with something more effective. Shyness is not necessarily mouse-in-a-hole timidity. Kneasy:" He's so described [oily, greasy] by his 'enemies'. OK, we all know he has lank, greasy hair - but unkempt? I presume your're on about the grey underwear, that was exposed after end of term exams and I doubt his parents had any influence over his personal hygiene once he got on the Hogwarts Express." They didn't have influence, but we have two examples of unkemptness, and how many of good care? The remark about parents sending kids to school like that was an aside, really. The point is that a kid who doesn't look cared for at school has two strikes against him from the outset. Kneasy:" Yes, he does appear to be a target for James and Sirius, but he's not helpless - he uses a spell to draw blood from James's face. This may be just an episode in an on-going war, but the way Sirius blusters in the face of Snape's tauntings in Grimmaud Place, plus the fact that he was supposed to know so much Dark Magic at school, adds weight to the idea that he would be a handful for any of the Marauders on their own. " He isn't helpless, but he was humiliated and bullied on the lawn, and the dialogue suggests the bullying was going on. James wasn't the one shown with gray underwear shown in midair in front of half the school; he did it while hanging out with his buddies, the "arrogant little berks" who were good at pretty much anything they did. Is there any reason to think Snape scored on them like that in any way, ever? Kneasy:" . Snape is *not* good. He has joined the Order for his own reasons and they are nothing to do with spreading sweetness and light." Snape's on the right side, and he's done the right thing more than once. `Nuff. He isn't spreading sweetness and light, but that's not a membership requirement for being one of the Good Guys in a war. Jim Ferer From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Feb 15 16:02:09 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 15 Feb 2004 16:02:09 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1076860929.64.23994.m17@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 90997 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, February 15, 2004 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 15 16:16:53 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:16:53 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90998 big snip of great post > I think this coming summer is going to be a lot different for our > Harry! Better late than never, I guess! snip > > Jaimee I agree with you about the "weapon". I think he needs to develop a sort of "mental Patronus". One of my favorite images from OotP is Harry leading the Dursley's out of the train station. In the previous books Harry was usually following behind misserably, but this time he takes the lead. I love that, IMHO Harry will be taking the lead in many things in the next 2 books. Sue From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun Feb 15 16:33:01 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:33:01 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Attack on Lily and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 90999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: > Hey everyone > > Quick question on the events of Lily and James's death. > > If the Weasley twins can learn how to Apparate and can do so in > Fidelius charmed house (the order's headquarters), why can't Lily > and James merely Apparate to Harry's side and then Apparate out of > the house? Or if they cannot Apparate out of the house, why not > Apparate to the front door and then go outside and Apparate. > > I am presuming that Lily and James could Apparate, but the only means we > are given to stop someone from Apparate is spell DD uses in the MOM > against the DEs. We are not told that Voldemort used this spell on > Lily and James, but granted we still do not know exactly how the > attack went down. If you can just Apparate in the first pace why not > just go on the run? We are not told if there is a way to track > people who Apparate. If there were no way to track them, wouldn't it > be safer to just go on the run and Apparate every few days? Why keep > yourself in one place? > > Thanks > > John An interesting theory to be sure. Lily and James were surely very accomplished wizards and probably had their apparition lisences. But could they apparate with Harry? I don't know if it is possible to transfer your apparation abilities to someone else, even someone as small as a baby. Mr. and Mrs. Weasley often had to arrange Muggle transportation for themselves and their brood to get places such as the Hogwarts Express and the Portkey to the Quidditch World Cup. If passing on your apparition ablilities was possible, why didn't they all just stand in a big line with Arthur and Molly at either end and have Arthur and Molly apparate the lot to their intended destination? I always assumed that apparition was a limited personal power, and that you couldn't just apparate with anyone hanging on (unlike, say, Nightcrawler's teleportation abilities in X Men). Also, I always assumed that the cottage at Godric's Hollow was protected by more than just the Fidelus Charm, and even if it wasn't, we just don't yet know enough about that fateful Halloween night to figure out what happened. Meri (who now has pictures of baby Harry getting severley splinched in her head) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Feb 15 17:38:21 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:38:21 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91000 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wmkgourlay" wrote: > Part of the reason why Neville, > (although greatly improved) could not get his spells to work in the > Ministry was nerves. I don't think this is true. Neville was hit in the face by Dolohov's feet. His nose was broken and his face was full of blood. That was why he wasn't able to pronounce the spells. Bevore he was kicked, he did the spells right. Hickengruendler, who is sorry for the short post, but doesn't know what else to say. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Feb 15 17:38:24 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:38:24 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > Neri: > I'm not sure at all that the channel is closed. My impression was that Harry's heart can save him only from the possession part. The full citation of DD is: > > "That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you." > > Harry had his "heart" before he went to the MoM and it did not stop the leak from LV mind, nor the false information regarding Sirius, from getting to him. And I'm not sure even about the possession part. It seems that LV can't reside in Harry's mind for a long time, but he can get there for a second or two that might be enough to attempt a hit on DD or one of Harry's friends, especially when Harry is vulnerable (when he is angry or confused or asleep).<< Voldemort didn't realize that Harry was so full of the power he detests until Harry called up his yearning for Sirius. Now he knows--and I think that changes everything. Voldemort detests that power because he's afraid of it, as he fears anything he can't control. I don't think he can face it again. It's sort of the opposite of the way Harry was with the Patronus spell. He always had the power, but he couldn't use it until he *knew* that he could. Voldemort still has the ability to invade Harry's mind, but IMO, he can't use it anymore because he *knows* Harry is protected by that power. Pippin From SuzChiles at pobox.com Sun Feb 15 17:35:32 2004 From: SuzChiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:35:32 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flitwick or Snape as DADA? In-Reply-To: <24051A3A.52FBB09C.1136A2F8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91002 > ~Adri~ > Who's still wondering how Neville manages to be so inept at > Potions, yet so good in Herbology and DADA . . . What's to wonder? Look at the OWLs test in OoTP: "The afternoon practical was not as dreadful as he had expected it to be. With Snape absent from the proceedings, he found that he was much more relaxed than he usually was while making potions. Neville, who was sitting near Harry, also looked happier than Harry had ever seen him during a Potions class." In other words, Neville's stress from the constant probability of being publicly humiliated by Professor Snape is more than enough cause for him to perform poorly in Snape's class. Suzanne From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Feb 15 18:24:14 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:24:14 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91003 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wmkgourlay" wrote: >> In the end, Luna will be important as she was in OoP. She will help Harry through some tough times and maybe teach Hermoine to be more open-minded.<< She also stands to Harry a bit as he stands to Ron and Hermione. Harry's never sure how much of the weird stuff Luna's telling him he ought to believe, but it must be much the same for Ron and Hermione vis a vis all the things Harry tells them. It's going to be even harder for Hermione now, knowing that she was right to doubt Harry's vision of Sirius at the Ministry. Pippin From tim at marvinhold.com Sun Feb 15 19:04:10 2004 From: tim at marvinhold.com (Tim) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:04:10 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Attack on Lily and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91004 --- "johnbowman19" wrote: > If you can just Apparate in the first pace why not > just go on the run? We are not told if there is a way to track > people who Apparate. If there were no way to track them, wouldn't it > be safer to just go on the run and Apparate every few days? Why keep > yourself in one place? > > Thanks > > John 1) I don't think you can apparate another person. 2) It's tough to be homeless. Especially with a baby. hmmm.. I wonder if a pregnant witch can apparate without harming her child? Tim From flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 19:29:01 2004 From: flutingfrenzy at hotmail.com (Diana Walter) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:29:01 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement--a plot hole? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91005 Chelle: > I always thought it was a magical holodeck. If it wasn't tangible >it wouldn't be able to leave the room. But then there would be no point in Filch finding cleaning supplies there when he runs out, like Dobby says he has done in the past. After all the discussion that's been done on this subject, I'm more inclined to go with the theory that the room summons what you need from elsewhere in the castle. In that case, the parchment Umbridge found would have to be tangible. Although now that I think about it, I can't remember...was she aware of the Room of Requirement's powers? If not, she never would have doubted the parchment's authenticity anyway. --daw From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 15 20:35:47 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:35:47 -0000 Subject: Rrandom questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91006 I have two questions which have probably been discussed before. Why didn't Mrs. Figg go to St. Mungo's when she broke her leg? If she is in touch with Wizards (Dumbledore even) couldn't someone have helped her so she did not have to live in a cast for several weeks? My second question is in regard to wands. Is it possible that it is fairly common for students to replace their wands when they start their NEWT training? I know there was no mention of Percy or the twins replacing theirs but we know that Ron had Charlie's (or maybe Bill's) old wand when he started at Hogwarts. Perhaps this only happens if they are learning something that their first wand is not as good as another type of wand would be? Do you suppose then that someone like Dumbledore would have an entire wardrobe, depending on what he wanted to do? Thinking aloud and wondering if anyone has an opinion, Sue From lphoenix69 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 13:24:24 2004 From: lphoenix69 at hotmail.com (Lucy Phoenix) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:24:24 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91007 Has there been a discussion on who or what Crookshanks really is? I feel he/she is more than just a cat but how does he/she fit in the future stories? I don't have the books (I just keep checking them out of the library), so is Crookshanks male or female? Any ideas? Lucy From c_robocker at yahoo.com Sun Feb 15 13:34:42 2004 From: c_robocker at yahoo.com (c_robocker) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:34:42 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Attack on Lily and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91008 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: > Hey everyone > > Quick question on the events of Lily and James's death. > > If the Weasley twins can learn how to Apparate and can do so in > Fidelius charmed house (the order's headquarters), why can't Lily > and James merely Apparate to Harry's side and then Apparate out of > the house? Or if they cannot Apparate out of the house, why not > Apparate to the front door and then go outside and Apparate. My guess is that they couldn't take Harry with them. Apparition doesn't seem to apply to people you touch, like say, a port key. ? From elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 14:24:23 2004 From: elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com (wmkgourlay) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:24:23 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Attack on Lily and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91009 Good question, but I don't think they could apparate while holding Harry. Just had a thought....at the end of OoP, Voldy did apparate while holding on to Bellatrix. However, Voldemort is a very powerful wizard. I bet Dumbledore could apparate holding someone too. Maybe Lily and James just did not have enough magic to apparate and hold Harry at the same time. I have also noticed reading and re-reading these books, that more powerful wizards apparate quietly, while the twins and Mundungus always have a loud crack. Dumbledore does not make a sound when he apparates. Interesting thought, why not just apparate yourself away from Voldemort? Beth From elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 14:37:09 2004 From: elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com (wmkgourlay) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:37:09 -0000 Subject: Wands (Was: Re: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91010 I am glad you mentioned the wand issue. Ron also does not have his own wand until Azkaban. Ron and Neville were both using somebody elses wands and both had a hard time with spells. In the first book, Mr. Ollivander says that wizards never perform well using somebody elses wand. Later on he says, "it's really the wand that chooses the wizard, of course." Poor Neville and Ron, two boys that both have self-esteem and confidence issues are using wrongs that are not really suited for them. Ron gets a new wand in Azkaban, he is already doing much better. Neville will definately need a new wand now, and hopefully not his mothers. I understand where the grandmother is coming from having Neville use his dad's wand, but hopefully she will let him get a new one. Guess we will have to wait and see when book 6 comes out! Beth From elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 15:21:36 2004 From: elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com (wmkgourlay) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:21:36 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91011 Snape is a difficult character to understand and to like. I believe that much of his bitterness and cruelty that he exhibits stems to his childhood. Obviously, his homelife was not picture perfect, but neither was Harry's. He is deeply interested in the Dark Arts from very early in life, which is suggested in the books. Why? maybe to get revenge on people who have hurt him? to know things that other people don't? who knows. I think that he is a genius, intelligents beyond all others, (except Dumbledore). Being a teacher, I quite often see really intelligent children who are complete loners, shunned and bullied by their peers. Einstein had the worse social skills and preferred to by alone, but no one can deny his brains. James and friends also targeted Snape, because he liked the Dark Arts, and James hated anything to do with the Dark Arts. He is a difficult character to decode. Hopefully in the next book we will gain more insight into him. I think in OoP, we learned quite abit already. Even though is he mean and seems to do the right thing in the end. Dumbledore trusts him. Beth From RACH911 at aol.com Sun Feb 15 16:47:50 2004 From: RACH911 at aol.com (rach9112000) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:47:50 -0000 Subject: James and the Dark Arts. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91012 I've just been reading OOtP for about the 5th time and I found something about James which hadn't previously jumped out at me. It's in Chapter 29 (US Version pg 670) and its where Harry uses Umbridge's fire to speak to Sirius about his dad's behaviour towards Snape in the Pensieve scene. Sirius says "And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and James - whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry - always hated the Dark Arts." My question is, why did James hate the DA so much? I can't believe it's simply because he found the subject difficult because we know James was very intelligent. If anyone knows any canon for why he hates the DA please let me know because it would appear he hated the DA prior to the war on Voldemort. Thanks Rachel From animagikat at yahoo.com Sun Feb 15 17:12:15 2004 From: animagikat at yahoo.com (Julie) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:12:15 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91013 --- > Jim Ferer-Snape's on the right side, and he's done the right thing more than once. Animagikat's opinions of Snape I agree with you 100% about Snape suffering from social phobia. Also, IMO, Snape has been made this way, not only from his treatment as a child, but also from his treatment as an adult. His support from the other members of the order is non existent, except perhaps Dumbledore. And even from him we have seen very little. He is met primarily with contradicion, hate, and superiority. Never is he met with acceptance. I, as someone who has been accused of being a social phobic myself, can tell you that this behavior does not breed good feelings within the recipiant. That said, IMO, Snape's decision to do the right thing springs from some deep seated hatred of Voldemort, and/or his followers and a need for revenge. I do not believe he has had a change of heart and if that is the case, his 'right' decisions, made for the wrong reason's, can be wrong decisions. (Where have I heard that before?) This I can also attest to: By acting out of hatred, anger, and a want revenge, you usually end up hurting yourself in the long run. He is on a very self destructive path, even if he doesn't see it. His intentions are not pure. Possibly, he is not fighting for the same end as the other members of the Order: the ultimate downfall of Voldemort. Vengence is his goal(IMO). Being a social phobic, and a slytherin, his number one intent is to see that his own wants and needs are met regardless of what the Order wants. This is not to say that he can not be useful. We already know he is. But if his needs are eventually met before the goals of the Order, what will become of him then? I would like to think that he would continue to fight for the order, but with so little acceptance from them, and being a social phobic, why would he? He really supports no one, because no one really supports him. > >Animagikat > From elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 17:19:33 2004 From: elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com (wmkgourlay) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:19:33 -0000 Subject: The colour "Purple" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91014 Has anyone noticed how much PURPLE, or different shades of it, ex: lilac, mauve, are used in the books? Dumbledore is especially surrounded by purple, purple sleeping bags, purple robes, purple chairs, etc. Lockhart's favourite colour is lilac. The nightbus is purple and so are their uniforms on the bus. There are also some letters that were wrote on purple parchment. Seems to me in Goblet of Fire, but I would need to check, Ron's dress robes are mauve. I am curious as to why this colour continues to turn-up on a regular basis in all the books. I have associated it with "good" people, but I have not really figured out more than that. Maybe it is just J.K.'s favourite colour. Tell me what you think, Beth From elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 18:53:06 2004 From: elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com (wmkgourlay) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:53:06 -0000 Subject: Believing Harry (WAS: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91015 Pippin: It's going to be even harder for Hermione now, knowing > that she was right to doubt Harry's vision of Sirius at the Ministry. > I agree, Hermoine is going to have a tougher time believing Harry's stories now that she knows Voldemort can effect Harry's thinking and dreams. Actually, everyone will have a hard time. Harry needs to learn to block his mind, (which Dumbledore will teach in the 6th book, I hope. I also hope that Harry learns to pentrate Voldemort's mind.) Beth From annelilucas at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 15 19:43:55 2004 From: annelilucas at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?anneli=20lucas?=) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:43:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparition + Floo WAS Re: Apparition & Fidelius In-Reply-To: <20040215114612.21973.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040215194355.1584.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91016 Dhyana wrote: I also noticed that nobody used floo powder to travel to and from the house, but they did use it to communicate with eachother. (Elihu): In GF, we learn that the Gryffindor fire is connected to the network, and can be used for communication; Black knew it, in fact. Anneli: I have a problem with floo and apparition. If people's houses (on the network) can be entered by anybody by floo, and people can apparate willy nilly all over the place, surely burglary would be a big problem? (And what's the point of locking doors when they can be opened by magic for that matter? - I'm sure this happens at Hogwarts, can't remember when though.) Surely it would make more sense if only public buildings and outdoors could be apparated into (unless there's a way of restricting who apparates into a certain place), and have time-restrictions on the floo network so your house couldn't be entered at night, for example, by just anyone. It seems incredibly insecure otherwise. Anneli ___________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save 80 http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Feb 15 21:11:41 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:11:41 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wmkgourlay" > wrote: > > >> In the end, Luna will be important as she was in OoP. She > will help Harry through some tough times and maybe teach > Hermoine to be more open-minded.<< Pippin: > She also stands to Harry a bit as he stands to Ron and > Hermione. Harry's never sure how much of the weird stuff > Luna's telling him he ought to believe, but it must be much the > same for Ron and Hermione vis a vis all the things Harry tells > them. It's going to be even harder for Hermione now, knowing > that she was right to doubt Harry's vision of Sirius at the Ministry. Jen: That's true about Hermione, although she had her own revelation after discovering the prophecy room in the MOM. That experience, and the knowledge that Harry's own life is tied up with a prophecy, might help Hermione see a few more possibilities (besides getting everything from a book). She just needed it couched in terms she can understand; finding out actual *research* was taking place on prophecies made intuition palatable! As for Luna, I'm wondering if she will have an eye-opening experience as well, something that will shake the foundation of her beliefs. Luna is also single-minded, but in a completely different way. Her ability to exclude factual information is equal to Hermione's ability to discount everything she can't see/hear/touch. Both have an opportunity to see another person's perspective if they look at each other closely, but will they? Jen From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 15 21:45:00 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:45:00 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Attack on Lily and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91018 snip Just had a thought....at the end of OoP, Voldy did apparate > while holding on to Bellatrix. However, Voldemort is a very powerful wizard. more snipping > Interesting thought, why not just apparate yourself away from > Voldemort? > > Beth Voldemort did not have to apparate Bellatrix with him, I am sure she can do it by herself. They probably just went together. It seems to me that if the Potter's could have apparated holding thier son, they would have. As another poster noted, the Weasley's don't apparate with their children either, it probabley means you can't. I am also pretty sure that if Dumbledore can stop people from apparating, then Voldy can also. He may use that particular curse when he walks in a room regardless of who is there, just to make sure he has a "captive" audience. I accidently snipped the part of your post which refered to the noise people make when they apparate (always trying to comply with the rules, you know) but it is a very interesting point you made. I think it is quite possible that the better you are at apparating the less noise you make. Wish I could do it too! Sue From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 15 22:13:40 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:13:40 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Attack on Lily and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91019 Beth wrote: > Good question, but I don't think they could apparate while holding > Harry. Just had a thought....at the end of OoP, Voldy did > apparate while holding on to Bellatrix. However, Voldemort is a > very powerful wizard. I bet Dumbledore could apparate holding > someone too. Maybe Lily and James just did not have enough magic > to apparate and hold Harry at the same time. Pip!Squeak: It could be something to do with magical *children*. We know from GoF that magical kids can produce uncontrolled magic at a very young age (little Kevin and the incredible expanding slug). We don't yet know what Apparating feels like to the Apparatee. It's entirely possible that it would panic a baby or small child something rotten. The effects of a burst of panic stricken uncontrolled magic whilst Apparating could be disastrous - possibly even fatal. Apparation is restricted to over-17's. Maybe that's because they're not magically mature enough to handle it until then? Pip!Squeak From SuzChiles at pobox.com Sun Feb 15 22:01:51 2004 From: SuzChiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:01:51 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] James and the Dark Arts. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91020 Rachel asks: > My question is, why did James hate the DA so much? I can't believe > it's simply because he found the subject difficult because we know > James was very intelligent. > If anyone knows any canon for why he hates the DA please let me know > because it would appear he hated the DA prior to the war on > Voldemort. Is it possible that you are confusing the class "Defense Against the Dark Arts" and the actual phenomenon of the Dark Arts? I should think it's relatively clear that James hated the Dark Arts because he's one of the good guys who would never go down the dark path of the dark arts. Suzanne From catlady at wicca.net Sun Feb 15 22:49:45 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:49:45 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91021 Beth wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/91011 : << He is deeply interested in the Dark Arts from very early in life, which is suggested in the books. Why? >> IMHO, because the only time his parents (or father, depending on whether the mother's timidity was always or just in the Pensieve scene) expressed approval of him was when he showed that he was learning far ahead of his age by reading in their Dark Arts library. I should mention that I believe his childhood left him with a big hunger for approval and it took him a very long time to learn any ways of gaining approval except bragging about his grades and winning fights/duels. He has learned a little; the rest of the permanent Hogwarts teachers accept him as a colleague, respect him as a knowledgeable and powerful wizard, and may enjoy his jokes. Look at McGonagall: "Heaven knows, we need a better team than last year. Flattened in that last match by Slytherin, I couldn't look Severus Snape in the face for weeks...." I should mention that I don't believe that Snape has social phobia (I do) because, despite his desire for approval (respect or at least fear) from all people, he Doesn't Fear Disapproval from anyone but himself and his current father figure, currently Dumbledore, perhaps once Voldemort or Karkaroff or Lucius Malfoy. Of course Snape is full of curdled rage and shame which turns to hate as Jim Ferer described. Just not caused by social phobia. I believe (this is my old, old, 1999 theory) that the main thing which has, in Jim Ferer's words, denied him the pursuit of happiness, is self- directed homophobia. I feel sure in my heart that poor Severus was born with exclusively 'gay' orientation but qas brought up to find that idea disgusting. So he constantly tries to suppress those feelings; when he feels them, that is one more thing to be disgusted at himself about, along with having been a Death Eater, having been humiliated by Marauders, etc. Self-disgust -> shame -> rage -> hatred (of whomever can be blamed for making him feel so bad, or whomever can be envied for undeservedly feeling good). And because he can't let himself feel his feelings, then he can't find pairing-off love. Lucy Phoenix wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91007 : << Has there been a discussion on who or what Crookshanks really is? I feel he/she is more than just a cat but how does he/she fit in the future stories? I don't have the books (I just keep checking them out of the library), so is Crookshanks male or female? >> Crookshanks is male, always getting the pronoun 'he' from "Poor Crookshanks, that witch said he'd been in there for ages; no one wanted him" on. JKR said in an interview that Crookshanks is part Kneazle. FB said that Kneazles "have an uncanny ability to detect unsavory or suspicious characters, and can be relied on to guide its owner safely home if they are lost." http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/crookshanks.html Christal Richards wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90985 : << To view the pages from the movie's DADA book, and a transcript of the words posted, use the link below. http://hp4unews.blogspot.com/2004_02_01_hp4unews_a rchive.html#107626975420360745 >> Thank you for this link! WoW! Their Firebolt with the crooked stick and painted runes doesn't look much like the canonical description of the Firebolt:" It was a Firebolt, identical to the dream broom Harry had gone to see every day in Diagon Alley. Its handle glittered as he picked it up. He could feel it vibrating and let go; it hung in midair, unsupported, at exactly the right height for him to mount it. His eyes moved from the golden registration number at the top of the handle, right down to the perfectly smooth, streamlined birch twigs that made up the tail." No glitter, runes not registration number, crooked not perfectly smooth twigs ... "They've updated the handle too, a bit slimmer than the Cleansweeps, reminds me of the old Silver Arrows" Handle THICK as well as BENT, the latter surely contrary all the statements about it being stream-lined. And, and Silmariel said in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90995 , the movie DADA textbook contradicts FB in some ways: FB: "Humans turn into werewolves only when bitten." FB: "Once a month, at full moon, the otherwise sane and normal wizard or Muggle afflicted transforms into a murderous beast." "When there is no Full Moon, the werewolf is as harmless as any other human." Neither FB nor the movie book tell how to distinguish the werewolf from the true wolf, which must be important because JKR has put it in two books. PoA: "Which of you can tell me how we distinguish between the werewolf and the true wolf?" said Snape. (snip) "Please, sir," said Hermione, whose hand was still in the air, "the werewolf differs from the true wolf in several small ways. The snout of the werewolf --" OoP: "Did you like question ten, Moony?" asked Sirius as trhey emerged into the entrance hall. "Loved it," said Lupin briskly. "'Give five signs that identify the werewolf.' Excellent question." (snip) "I got the snout shape, the pupils of the eyes, and the tufted tail," [Wormtail] said anxiously, "but I couddn't think what else ---" Lupin is my favorite, too, so I am eager for all scraps of info about Potterverse werewolves, but I find the movie DADA book to be contrary to canon. Ali wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr ownups/message/90993 : << I was interested that the prop had a section on the "Silver Bullet myth". Whilst it would be great to think that this was a JKR hint that Lupin cannot be killed by a silver bullet, and perhaps by extension, the Silver Hand of Pettigrew, I would imagine that this is a leap too far. >> I believe that JKR answered that silver is not especially dangerous to Potterverse werewolves in Harry's first dinner at 12 Grimmauld Place. There is that stuff of Mundungus asking Sirius whether the goblets are solid silver, which has no purpose except to establish that they are. And there is no reason to establish that the goblet is silver except: when they get down to business: "A frisson had gone around the table at the sound of Voldemort's name. Lupin, who had been about to take a sip of wine, lowered his goblet slowly, looking wary." JKR is telling us that Lupin has no problem drinking from a silver goblet; holding it doesn't burn his hand as in so many fanfics; it doesn't do special magical harm to him. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Feb 15 23:25:00 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:25:00 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] The colour "Purple" Message-ID: <1ea.190f3250.2d6159cc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91022 In a message dated 2/15/2004 4:03:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, Beth (elizabethhadzic at hotmail.com) writes: Has anyone noticed how much PURPLE, or different shades of it, ex: lilac, mauve, are used in the books? Dumbledore is especially surrounded by purple, purple sleeping bags, purple robes, purple chairs, etc. Lockhart's favourite colour is lilac. The nightbus is purple and so are their uniforms on the bus. There are also some letters that were wrote on purple parchment. Seems to me in Goblet of Fire, but I would need to check, Ron's dress robes are mauve. I am curious as to why this colour continues to turn-up on a regular basis in all the books. I have associated it with "good" people, but I have not really figured out more than that. Maybe it is just J.K.'s favourite colour. ================================== Sherrie here: Purple, in occult lore, has always been considered the most spiritual color. It is the color connected with the crown chakra (the one at the top of the head, where connection to Deity is set). It indicates psychic and spiritual development of the highest degree, wisdom and balance. It's also a royal color, of course - though a true "royal purple" is actually a deep wine red (the color produced by the murex shell). Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Feb 16 02:06:43 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:06:43 -0000 Subject: James and the Dark Arts. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rach9112000" wrote: > My question is, why did James hate the DA so much? I can't believe it's simply because he found the subject difficult because we know James was very intelligent. If anyone knows any canon for why he hates the DA please let me know because it would appear he hated the DA prior to the war on Voldemort. << There's not much to go on, but considering that his animal was the stag, perhaps James hated the Dark Arts because, deep down, he was afraid of them. And since Gryffindors aren't supposed to be afraid of anything, it made him ashamed, and he took it out on Snape. That's my theory, anyway. Pippin From nianya_c at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 02:17:02 2004 From: nianya_c at yahoo.com (nianya_c) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:17:02 -0000 Subject: A Question about Werewolves/Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91024 Christal Wrote: There is something that was bothering me about the whole Lupin/Werewolf thing, and I passed this off as maybe "not in J.K.R.'s world," but now that I see this, I am not too sure. > We know that in POA the book, we are told that Lupin is a werewolf, and that he was bitten when he was younger. My problem with this had always been, why did he age? Traditional gypsy lore would tell us that werewolves do not age from the time they are bitten. Nia replied: Perhaps Remus ages because he has not yet bitten another human and is not yet eternally lost so to speak. I don't know if that follows traditional law, but if he was cursed and/or bitten as an innocent child and has not tasted human blood than maybe in JKR's world he can still be cured somehow. Nianya From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 21:59:02 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:59:02 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91025 Lucy wrote: > Has there been a discussion on who or what Crookshanks > really is? I feel he/she is more than just a cat but how > does he/she fit in the future stories? I don't have the > books (I just keep checking them out of the library), so > is Crookshanks male or female? > Any ideas? Hey I am a big fan of the HP- Lexicon and they have a wonderful explanation of Crookshanks, that can be read by clicking on this link http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/crookshanks.html. Crookshanks is not an animagus, but he is part Kneazle which is an animal that can sometimes mate with a cat. This makes him a little more intelligent then your average ginger cat. The HP-Lexicon is a wonderful site and I highly recommend it to whoever is looking for anything to do with the Potter-verse, http://www.hp-lexicon.org/ Thanks John From mhymei at aol.com Sun Feb 15 23:41:09 2004 From: mhymei at aol.com (shadowessa) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:41:09 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91026 Lucy wrote: > Has there been a discussion on who or what Crookshanks > really is? I feel he/she is more than just a cat but how > does he/she fit in the future stories? I don't have the > books (I just keep checking them out of the library), so > is Crookshanks male or female? > Any ideas? I also feel that Crookshanks could be something more. It must not be an animagus, as no suspicious name has appeared on the Marauder's Map, unless of course, it is an error, like Peter Pettigrew not showing up. Some have guessed Fawkes might be some sort of reincarnation of Godric Gryffindor. Could Crookshanks be something like that to? I have no idea, but I do feel that something WILL happen! From lphoenix69 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 16 01:23:42 2004 From: lphoenix69 at hotmail.com (Lucy Phoenix) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 01:23:42 -0000 Subject: Apparating: was Re: Voldemort's Attack on Lily and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91027 Pip!Squeak: > Apparation is restricted to over-17's. Maybe that's because they're > not magically mature enough to handle it until then? In one of the books, I seem to recall an incident where Harry was being bullied by somebody on the street and ended up on a roof top. I wonder if he apparated. I don't recall anyone flying without a broom nor any other super-jumps. Does anyone else remember this? It was only mentioned in passing during a conversation. How did Harry get up there? Lucy From amani at charter.net Mon Feb 16 03:15:27 2004 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:15:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks References: Message-ID: <003001c3f43b$20ac0ca0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91028 Lucy: Has there been a discussion on who or what Crookshanks really is? I feel he/she is more than just a cat but how does he/she fit in the future stories? I don't have the books (I just keep checking them out of the library), so is Crookshanks male or female? Any ideas? Taryn: Crookshanks is male, and half-Kneazle. It's a subject that's been brought up numerous times. The last time was actually just about a month ago, and I quoted the following bit from an interview: Lizo: ...I was particularly interested in the bit about the Kneazle, is Crookshanks possibly... uh, have any Kneazle...? JKR: Yes, part-Kneazle yes, he is, yes, well-spotted. Lizo: And is that important...? JKR: Well, you'll just have to keep reading, won't you Lizo? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/JKR%20Chats/ (Newsroundinterview.txt) ^_^ ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 04:03:33 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 04:03:33 -0000 Subject: Apparating: was Re: Voldemort's Attack on Lily and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91029 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lucy Phoenix" wrote: > In one of the books, I seem to recall an incident where Harry was > being bullied by somebody on the street and ended up on a roof top. > I wonder if he apparated. I don't recall anyone flying without a > broom nor any other super-jumps. > Does anyone else remember this? It was only mentioned in passing > during a conversation. > How did Harry get up there? > Lucy In PS/SS, Harry was remembering all the times odd things had happened (before he knew he was a wizard). He was running from Dudley's gang at school, tried to jump behind the trash bins, and ended up on the roof of the school kitchens. He also remembered the time Petunia cut *all* his hair off except for his bangs (to hide the scar), and Harry was so worried about showing up at school that way the next day that he somehow regrew all of it overnight. Also, there was the time Petunia was trying to make him wear a horrible old sweater of Dudley's, but it somehow shrank so much it couldn't even have fit a doll; Petunia thought she'd shrunk it in the wash. Harry is remembering all this in Ch. 2, while on his way to the zoo. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 04:21:31 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 04:21:31 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91030 > dorapye: > I always assumed that Flitick in the Pensieve scene is just the > invigilator of he exam, not the "examiner" as provided by The > Ministry, as it is a written exam. I checked back in OotP, and on > p627 of the UK edition, we have McGonagall invigilating a Charms > exam (Harry's first OWL): > > '...the four house tables had been removed and replaced instead with > many tables for one, all facing the staff-table end of the Hall > where Professor McGonagall stood facing them. When they were all > seated and quiet, she said, "You may begin," and turned over an > enormous hour glass on the desk beside her, on which there were also > spare quills, ink bottles and rolls of parchment.' > > So,IMO, Flitwick is just supervising the exam, not actually > responsible for marking it, and therefore neither Ministry examiner > nor DADA professor....not sure it rules either possibility out, just > that these are the conclusions I have made and they seem to fit with > canon... > > This fits with other people's ideas, yes? Carol: Interesting observation. I've never heard the term "invigilating"--we call it "proctoring" in the U.S.--but it does look as if the professors supervise the OWLs for other professor's classes-- McGonagall proctors the written portion of the Charms OWL for Flitwick in Harry's fifth year; Flitwick proctors the written portion of the DADA OWL for whoever the DADA professor was at that time; a Ministry official administers (and grades) the practical portion of the OWLs in those subjects and all the others with a practical component. So the only question is who grades the written portion of the OWLs? Probably not the teacher in charge of the class since it appears that the whole idea of the OWLs is to get an objective (and expert) second opinion and to remove the teacher from even supervisory duties to prevent subjectivity from entering into the grading. To get back to Flitwick: I guess that destroys my theory that he's qualified to teach DADA. He was probably the Charms professor for MWPP and Snape just as he is for HRH. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 05:29:22 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 05:29:22 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91031 Jim Ferer wrote: > And that brings me, at least, to the untold stories of the graveyard > scene. How could that be all the surviving DE's? Could it be the > cadre of DE's, Voldemort's staff? It doesn't say so in the text, but > it's hard to make sense out of it otherwise. I have a hard time > imagining Lucius Malfoy standing in the same circle as an evil > version of Stan Shunpike. If anything gives that "elite" idea any > credence, it's the MoM scene at the end of OotP; there's more DE's > around than seem possible even considering the gaps in the circle at > the graveyard. > > I agree that the Des in the graveyard scene can't possibly be all of them if there were anywhere near the 400 Lupin estimates were picking off the original members one by one. A lot (well, about seven) of the DEs in the MoM raid weren't in the graveyard scene; they were in Azkaban. That includes the three Lestranges, Antonin Dolohov, Rookwood, Mulciber, and possibly Jugson, who's mentioned for the first time in that scene. But still, as I said in another post, I can only account for about 28, including three dead ones, Karkaroff, and our favorite ex-DE, Snape. But I'm still coming up about 372 short. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 05:45:55 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 05:45:55 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Carol: The alternative is Snape, but for whatever reason, DD is > withholding it from him. So instead we get a possessed Voldie slave, > an incompetent egotist, a werewolf (nothing against Lupin, but he > knows he presents a danger to the students and staff), a paranoid > auror who gets Imperio'd and replaced by a certifiably insane Death > Eater, and (hem, hem!) a power hungry, sadistic bureaucrat. So, as > Ron would say, what is Dumbledore playing at? Just give the job to > Flitwick, will you? At least for now?" > Jim Ferer wrote: > I think Dumbledore may be withholding the job from Snape for the same > reason you wouldn't give a recovering alcoholic a job as a bartender. > Besides, I don't know that the students would learn much under his > methods. > > Flitwick could do it, surely, but he hasn't got the aggressive > instinct. He probably doesn't want it, anyway, and you'd have to get > a new Charms teachere. > > Why not Moody and Lupin? They can use Hogwarts as their base as well > or better than Grimwald Place; They're not underground anymore; and > they're close to Harry, who must be protected at all costs. I think > I'd double up on the DADA curriculum anyway, and Lupin can teach the > younger students, Moody can teach the older ones the rough stuff, and > the NEWT level students will go to the Room of Requirement for > practice with Harry (openly, this time), which strengthens Harry and > cements his position as a leader. Carol: First, let me say that I've withdrawn my Flitwick as DADA argument because I think (thanks to someone else's post) that he was only proctoring the DADA exam and that someone else was going to grade it. But rehiring Lupin is impossible now that the parents know he's a werewolf, and Moody is too paranoid after having been locked in his trunk for nine months. Dumbledore must have asked him and he must have refused since the position was unfilled and the Ministry filled it with Umbridge. I still say better Snape than Umbridge. He knows a lot about DADA and would probably enjoy teaching it. After all, it was Snape who taught the students "Expelliarmus!" in the duel with Lockhart. I very much doubt that he would use an Unforgiveable Curse on a student or teach them how to use one, which would be the only reasons DD might fear hiring him. He has too much sense--and too much to lose if he lost his position at Hogwarts. I think DD has some other, very different, reason for withholding the DADA post from Snape. For one thing, he'd never find another teacher who knows as much about Potions. And he could just as excusably fear that Snape would teach the Dark Arts via Potions as via DADA--poison a student or teach his classes to make poisons to destroy or incapacitate their enemies--or for that matter, to "stopper death." But whatever we may think of Snape's teaching methods, his curriculum is unobjectionable--unless, as Umbridge suggests, it's too "advanced," and I doubt very much that the parents or DD would agree with her. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 06:13:54 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:13:54 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91033 Neri: Can Harry steal information from LV's mind, and how would he know if it is genuine or a ruse? I don't think either can steal information, or ideas, from the other. Harry senses emotions (rage or great happiness) and witnesses events, sometimes from Voldemort's perspective but not always. (He saw from Frank Bryce's POV in one case and from the back of an eagle owl in another.) LV has not yet, so far as we know, felt Harry's emotions or viewed his memories: he has only planted a dream or vision there (the door to the Department of Mysteries and a glimpse of the room). This is not the same as actually reading his mind, a distinction Snape makes when he defines Legilmency for Harry: "The mind is not a book to be opened and read at will." (I'm quoting from memory here.) BTW, there was nothing wrong with Snape's teaching methods. He gave Harry useful information, warned him that he would need to resist the Legilmency spell, allowed him to use his wand to defend himself, and told him to practice and to clear his mind of all emotions both before each session and before he went to sleep at night. Any additional information that Snape withheld (as in why Harry needed to know occlumency) was withheld at DD's request. It's Harry who resisted Snape because he didn't trust him; Harry who refused to clear his mind or calm himself; Harry who wanted to continue dreaming about the passage in the MoM; Harry who looked in the Pensieve, violating Snape's privacy to satisfy his own curiosity. And Snape had every reason to be furious. Whatever was in the Pensieve besides his own worst memory, is probably exactly what Snape and DD did not want Harry to see because LV might see it, too. Harry needs to learn to trust Snape, and now that he knows why occlumency is necessary, he could probably learn it from him. Unfortunately that won't happen because *Harry* has shown himself to be untrustworthy and Snape will refuse to teach him. So now it will probably have to be Dumbledore, who will have to use the same methods that Snape did. If you want to learn occlumency, you have to learn to resist legilmency. There's no other way. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 06:37:08 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:37:08 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91034 LizVega wrote: Perhaps the reference to being outnumbered was to illustrate just how many people were under his control at that time. That could mean that the 400 or so followers were DE's, people like Wormtail who working as Double Agents, people under the imperious curse, dark creatures like dementors and giants, etc. I just can't see there being 400 DE's- and only seeing a fraction of that number in the graveyard in GOF. James wrote: Well The Aurors were Authorized to use Unforgiveable curses so it wouldn't be totally out of the realm of possibility that many of them could have been victims to the Avada Kedavra. But yeah..400 is quite a large number. Carol (responding to both): The passage stating that the Order was outnumbered twenty to one by Death Eaters (OoP 177 or 161, depending on your edition) has already been quoted, so I won't reapeat it here, but it does refer to DEs, not LV's followers in general. And LV states specifically that *three* DEs are "dead in [his] service" (GoF, graveyard scene, page number not handy). Of course, he may have been referring to just one specific gap in the circle. But even so, there were no more than thirty DEs present (I'm sure that Harry says "about a dozen," though I still haven't found that passage). By my count, 362 DEs are unaccounted for, and I doubt that anywhere near that many were AK'd by Aurors. Moody, one of the best Aurors, brought them in alive when he could. I can recall only one who died fighting him (Evan Rosier, who took a piece of Mad Eye's nose along with him), and he's probably one of the three LV is referring to, another being Wilkes. So, assuming that 400 is not a Flint, where could all those unnamed others be? Killed off by their fellow DEs as Regulus Black was? I doubt that more than a dozen could be accounted for in that way. Maybe there's a group of non-British Death Eaters somewhere other than England? With the exception of Dolohov and Karkaroff, all of our known DEs identified so far appear to be English. IIRC, even the Lestrange brothers attended Hogwarts. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 07:14:24 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:14:24 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91035 Jim Ferer wrote: In most ways Harry already does access LV's powers; he got many of them from LV when he was attacked. You could say your hypothesis has been true all along. > Neri wrote: Actually the only power that we know Harry got from LV is parselmouth. We assume there are more because DD said "powers" in plural. It is possible that some of Harry's exceptional abilities in DADA also came from LV, but I couldn't find anything in canon that specifically suggests it. How many other powers Harry got from LV and what are they? JKR keeps the answer to this question well hidden in her sleeve. The answer my pet theory suggests is "All of them, and none". Carol: Since his parents were a wizard and a witch (Muggle-born or not), he probably would have been about as powerful as, say, Ron or Draco, if the events at Godric's Hollow had never happened. He definitely inherited his skills in flying and quidditch from James and may have received some aptitude in charms or transfiguration from his parents as well. He would have gone to Hogwarts, certainly, but IMO he would have been just another half-blood wizard whose parents had gone there before him, neither "marked" nor in any way special. But the transfer of LV's powers made him into someone else, "the one" who can defeat Voldemort (but not yet, not until he discovers and channels those unknown powers). Maybe the power required to produce a "corporeal patronus" in the face of either a boggart or a real dementor (as opposed to a fellow DA member) comes, ironically, from the confrontation with Voldemort. And the channel between his scar and Voldemort, the ability to sense LV's emotions and see and hear in dreams what LV is doing and saying, could be regarded as a power as well. OTOH, it may not be so much specific abilities as sheer *power* that he acquired from LV, power of the sort that Dumbledore also seems to have in abundance. Harry's wand, the twin of Voldemort's, sensed something special in him, and I think it was those transferred powers--or a few specific abilities combined with power on a level with LV's--that the wand sensed. So in a way, he also owes his particularly powerful wand, the "brother" of Voldemort's, to the backfired AK. But DD does say "powers," plural, so maybe there's more to the transferred powers than what we've seen so far. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 07:52:11 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:52:11 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as DADA professor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91036 "potioncat": I was surprised to see Flitwick in the memory as well. But my > feeling was that he would have been a member of the MoM team who > came to test the students. What I wondered was, when did he become a > faculty member at Hogwarts? We didn't find out when Umbridge was > there because she visited Charms when Harry wasn't in his class. Did > he sign on after Snape? Would that explain why Snape seems to be > senior to Flitwick and Sprout? We didn't find out when she began > teaching either. > > Potioncat (who still isn't convinced Snape wants DADA, but who has > an open mind) Carol: I've pretty much worked out my confusion thanks to the many post from presumably British list members who are familiar with test-giving in Britain. I was *assuming* (bad me!) that Flitwick was the DADA professor when in fact he was merely proctoring the exam for the DADA professor, just as McGonagall proctored the Charms exam for Flitwick in OoP. So I think he was probably the Charms professor then as now, proctoring another teacher's exam as a way of guarding against favoritism. I don't think that Snape, who has only been teaching for fourteen years, is senior to Flitwick or Sprout, who are also the heads of their respective houses and appear to be much older than he is. I think that Flitwick, at least, was Snape's teacher (but his Charms, not his DADA, professor). The reason that Snape acts as DD's righthand man--and is always on hand when there's trouble--is IMO his particular personality and particular skills. He's extremely intelligent and logical but he's also able to intimidate students with nothing more than a look. Consequently, he's a much more effective deterrent to nighttime mischief than Flitwick or Sprout. Can you see either of them prowling the halls at nighttime, threatening mischief makers with detention? Snape is full of coiled energy, and DD puts it to good use. An of course, he's also in the Order, working hand in glove with DD (so to speak), and part of his job is to be at DD's beck and call whenever there's trouble, especially if it involves Harry. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 08:07:13 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:07:13 -0000 Subject: Apparition & Fidelius In-Reply-To: <004c01c3f372$b3dcf710$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy Jenkins" wrote: > Susan wrote in 90953: > >Either way, it seems like someone, at some point, would see > >someone disappear off the street and wonder what was going on. A > >nosy muggle neighbor (like Petunia) might even notice this > >repeatedly, and that knowledge could be obtained and used by > >unscrupulous parties. > > I kind of liken the fidelius with platform 9 3/4, or St. Mungos. Wizards and witches go there all the time, but muggles don't ever notice. That's a running thread throughout the books--muggles will go to great lengths to ignore magic, even when it's right in front of them. > > Moreover, even if a wizard *did* notice some odd happenings, they wouldn't be able to find the house unless they were given the address by the secret-keeper. In other words, DE could roam Grimmuald Place all day and night and never find #12, even if they suspected it was near. > > Cindy But Bellatrix is Sirius' first cousin and probably visited 12 Grimmauld Place in her childhood and early teens. (Sirius said he never saw her after he was fifteen, meaning that she must have left Hogwarts two or three years before he did, but she could have visited his home before that--or after he left home for good at sixteen.) Anyway, I think it's extremely unlikely that she wouldn't know where her uncle and aunt and her two cousins lived. So the Fidelius charm would somehow have to erase that knowledge or just make the house invisible and inaccessible to those who have not specifically been told by the Secret Keeper not only its address but that its the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix. (That's what Harry had to say in his mind in Order to see it, but he could only do so because he had read the words in DD's writing.) My suspicion is that Bellatrix suspects the truth and knows exactly where the house is but just can't see it or get inside. But if she were to see Snape or someone else entering the house, or rather disappearing as they entered the house, I think she would know exactly what's going on. (I do think it's stupid of the members to ring the bell and take extra time that might draw someone's attention, but I imagine that no one who doesn't know the secret can hear the bell.) It's also possible that Mr. and Mrs. Black never had visitors, including their nieces, but then Kreacher wouldn't dote on Bellatrix and her picture probably wouldn't be in their house. Messy, isn't it? Carol, who is only exploring possibilities, not presenting any theory From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Mon Feb 16 08:14:39 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:14:39 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91038 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lucy Phoenix" > Lucy wrote: > Has there been a discussion on who or what Crookshanks really is? I > feel he/she is more than just a cat but how does he/she fit in the > future stories? I don't have the books (I just keep checking them out > of the library), so is Crookshanks male or female? > Any ideas? Sawsan now: Crookshanks is part kneazle and he is a male. Kneazles are highly intelligent, so I suspect the same from Crookshanks. I doubt that he is an animagus, and I don't think he'll be important again, though he's a cool pet. I doubt that he's Lily Evans Potter like a few have speculated. That would defeat the purpose of him being a 'he'. Unless JKR wants to completely throw us off track, and not only make Lily an animagus, but transexual animagus. Cheers, Sawsan From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Feb 16 08:40:35 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:40:35 -0000 Subject: Apparition & Fidelius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91039 "justcarol67" wrote: > So the Fidelius charm > would somehow have to erase that knowledge or just make the house > invisible and inaccessible to those who have not specifically been > told by the Secret Keeper not only its address but that its the > headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix. (That's what Harry had to > say in his mind in Order to see it, but he could only do so because he > had read the words in DD's writing.) > > My suspicion is that Bellatrix suspects the truth and knows exactly > where the house is but just can't see it or get inside. --------------- The exact wording on the slip of parchment "The Headquarters of the OotP is located at #12 Grimy Old Place, London" is also an odd thing to me. It's not hiding the fact there *is* a #12 Grimy Old Place, it's just hiding the fact that it's the HQ. But when Harry reads the info, suddenly #12 appears from between otherwise side-by-side #ers 11 and 13. Odd... Not to mention, I was also quite shocked to learn a Secret Keeper could just write down this information. It wasn't even solely addressed to Harry or otherwise protected (password enchantment or such). Another question on Fidelius (I know, the questions never end on this)-- If someone asked Harry (or anyone else who knew but not Dumbledore), "Where's the HQ for the Order?" could Harry *say* "Num 12, etc, etc"? Could he physically tell someone that information? Would they understand it? Just where is that 'disconnect' of the secret from everything else occur? Arya (who started this thread and still only has questions...) From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Mon Feb 16 08:41:29 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:41:29 -0000 Subject: Dark Ships / Bellatrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91040 > Kneasy wrote: > Two recent threads you might try are: > 86739 - Sexual temptation > and > 87171 - In bed with Harry Potter. > Mind you, these are almost prudish compared to some of the ideas that can be found > in the posts from the earlier days of the site. But you'll have to find a long-established > member to guide you to the juicy bits. Strangely enough, they all seem to have been > written by women. I wonder why? > Hmmm, Kneasy, what are you suggesting about women? I think you did a good enough job in your older posts about the nice old subject of Harry and Sexuality. Let me quote you here: Kneasy wrote: Not quite the sort of temptation I had in mind, but who cares? I've always been firmly of the opinion that what every 17 y.o. boy really needs is Tina Turner. And Bella is about the closest Harry is going to get. Impressionable young lad that he is, he wouldn't stand a chance. A lamb to the slaughter. Now Sawsan again: Tina Turner huh. Ok if you say so, but I (perhaps the careless reader that I am) did not seem to think of Bella as some sort of equivolent to, oh I don't know, Elvira. I think she was a very pretty (though very evil) woman who looks like dung now, but some of her attractiveness may still be available, I'm not sure. I don't think the point is, to Harry, to have sex at this point, unless the weapon in the locked room in the DoM is sexual tension, and perhaps that is what Harry has a lot of and not Voldie, who seems to have lost much of his finer features. As for Bella, I don't think Harry has to think twice about wanting to rid her from this world, if he could only muster that type of magic up. I think the only "magic stick" (sorry, I couldn't help myself) he will want to show her is his trusty holly pheonix core, and that is to AK her ,I think he must aim at the heart with that curse, but if he aims a little lower, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Sawsan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 08:52:47 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:52:47 -0000 Subject: Rrandom questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91041 Sue: > I have two questions which have probably been discussed before. Why > didn't Mrs. Figg go to St. Mungo's when she broke her leg? If she is > in touch with Wizards (Dumbledore even) couldn't someone have helped > her so she did not have to live in a cast for several weeks? Carol: I think there are several reasons. 1) She's a Squib, not a witch, and couldn't apparate from Little Whinging (Which IIRC is in surrey) to London, 2) She's posing as a Muggle, and 3) St. Mungo's is for magically induced injuries. > > My second question is in regard to wands. Is it possible that it is > fairly common for students to replace their wands when they start > their NEWT training? I know there was no mention of Percy or the > twins replacing theirs but we know that Ron had Charlie's (or maybe > Bill's) old wand when he started at Hogwarts. Perhaps this only > happens if they are learning something that their first wand is not > as good as another type of wand would be? Do you suppose then that > someone like Dumbledore would have an entire wardrobe, depending on > what he wanted to do? > Carol: I don't know about Dumbledore, but Charlie must certainly have bought a second, more powerful, wand before giving his old one to Ron, and as I noted in another post, Ollivander state that he remembers Lily buying her *first* wand (swishy, willow, nice wand for charm work), which implies that she later bought a second (again, presumably more powerful) wand as a teenager or young adult. A wand bought at Ollivander's is presumably suitable for the eleven-year-old whose parent or guardian buys it, but wizards whose powers develop greatly while they're at Hogwarts very likely buy a second wand later. Carol, who remembers Mr. Ollivander saying that every wand is different and wonders how Fred's differs from George's From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Mon Feb 16 08:53:22 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:53:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's eyes was Re: The colour "Purple" In-Reply-To: <1ea.190f3250.2d6159cc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91042 Sherrie wrote: > > Purple, in occult lore, has always been considered the most spiritual color. > It is the color connected with the crown chakra (the one at the top of the > head, where connection to Deity is set). It indicates psychic and spiritual > development of the highest degree, wisdom and balance. > > It's also a royal color, of course - though a true "royal purple" is actually > a deep wine red (the color produced by the murex shell). Sawsan now: Ok, so purple is a highly spiritual color, so what is it about the color green? Harry's eyes and the fact that they are green like his mother's is very important. There are other things that are green as well in the series, such as the Slytherin colors, and the get of green light from Voldie's AK spell. I mainly would like to know how the color green is relevant to Lily and Harry's eyes. I am sure this has been discussed before, but I thought I would give it a shot anyway and ask. Also, I have read that Harry's eyes are weak, and that JKR stresses the importance of his glasses. I wonder what is so important about ordinary, and probably cheap, muggle glasses. Why and how are they important? Why are Harry's eyes so weak? Is it just a normal muggle optometry problem? Sawsan From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 16 10:18:09 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 10:18:09 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91043 > > Jim Ferer-Snape's on the right side, and he's done the right thing > more than once. > > Animagikat's opinions of Snape > > I agree with you 100% about Snape suffering from social > phobia. Also, IMO, Snape has been made this way, not only from his > treatment as a child, but also from his treatment as an adult. His > support from the other members of the order is non existent, except > perhaps Dumbledore. And even from him we have seen very little. He > is met primarily with contradicion, hate, and superiority. Never is > he met with acceptance. I, as someone who has been accused of being > a social phobic myself, can tell you that this behavior does not > breed good feelings within the recipiant. > > That said, IMO, Snape's decision to do the right thing springs from > some deep seated hatred of Voldemort, and/or his followers and a > need for revenge. I do not believe he has had a change of heart and > if that is the case, his 'right' decisions, made for the wrong > reason's, can be wrong decisions. (Where have I heard that before?) > This I can also attest to: By acting out of hatred, anger, > and a want revenge, you usually end up hurting yourself in the long > run. He is on a very self destructive path, even if he doesn't see > it. > > His intentions are not pure. Possibly, he is not fighting for the > same end as the other members of the Order: the ultimate downfall of > Voldemort. Vengence is his goal(IMO). Being a social phobic, and a > slytherin, his number one intent is to see that his own > wants and needs are met regardless of what the Order wants. > > This is not to say that he can not be useful. We already know he is. > But if his needs are eventually met before the goals of the Order, > what will become of him then? I would like to think that he would > continue to fight for the order, but with so little acceptance from > them, and being a social phobic, why would he? He really supports no > one, because no one really supports him. > > > >Animagikat Sigune here: I agree pretty much with your analysis, especially when you say Snape does the right thing for the wrong reasons. He does have his own agenda, and I think that comes from the fact (my own hypothesis) that he was treated even worse by the DE's than by the 'good guys'. Still, I am not all that pessimistic about what will happen "if his needs are met before the goals of the Order." We don't see a lot of interaction of Snape with Dumbledore, but there /must/ be much more than we know of. I think that a man like Snape can only agree to work for Dumbledore provided that he has a very deep respect for him - I can't imagine him taking orders from someone he considers inferior to himself. Maybe it is just me, but I think that even our cold and calculating Potions Master is prepared to go to great lengths in order to support Dumbledore, even if that means doing things that do not, strictly speaking, serve his own interests. He is not the kind of man who does things only half; so if he has decided to side with Dumbledore, IMHO he will do so with full dedication. Yours severely, Sigune > > From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 16 10:41:48 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 10:41:48 -0000 Subject: Apparition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91044 Arya wrote: < Is a just something that allows them to Disapparate and Apparate while remaining within the house? If they can do this, why do Order members not simply pop in and out without risking being seen outside as they enter or take the time to wait for someone to answer the door? There must be something that makes it impossible for the Order members to not pop in and out--it's far and away a better way to travel and less risky than arriving by the front door. >> Sigune here (without answers, alas, and straying slightly off topic): Personally I do find it rather reassuring to see that it is apparently impossible to Apparate inside this house when you travel there. I have often wondered while reading how wizards and witches secure their privacy. I mean, Floo sometimes works as a kind of telephone; but the person who tries to contact you either stands right in your fireplace or peeps directly into your house at least. Likewise, a person can just Apparate into your house. How to ward off unwanted visitors then? A Muggle can simply refuse to answer the phone or the doorbell; the person calling cannot know the other one is at home or not. I would hate the idea that it is possible for someone to literally pop in at any given moment, whether you feel like entertaining them or not. So: Would there be a) restrictions to Floo use (e.g. can you 'shut down' your fireplace?); b) courtesy rules (e.g. you are supposed to Apparate at the front door rather than inside a house when you go on an unexpected visit); c) specific (household; not just the very intricate ones no doubt at work in Hogwarts) charms to keep people from dropping in at random; d: other? Yours severely, Sigune From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 16 10:56:46 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 10:56:46 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91045 Animagikat wrote: >His (Snape"s) "right" decisions,made forthe wrong reasons, can be wrong decisions" and wonders where she has heard the phrase. I think it may be from T.S.Eliot's "Murder in the Cathedral" "This is the greatest treason To do the right deed For the wrong reason" Sylvia (who may be slightly misquoting, but hasn't the book to hand) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Feb 16 11:09:47 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:09:47 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91046 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > > We don't see any signs of self-confidence. Being professionally > competent, which he is, does not exclude social phobia at all. > Kneasy: There's more self-confidence than timidity or shyness IMO; the way he deals with classes and students from day 1, the way he treats new members of staff, the contempt he shows to Umbridge, his reaction to Sirius at Grimmauld Place. This is not a deferential or defensive character - he knows himself and is comfortable with himself. He has no doubts about his competence or social standing. > Kneasy:" I'm in a very small minority in this, but I'm not so sure > that this memory > is of his parents; I think Snape is the adult, that what we see is > Snape's family and that they are the reason he splits from Voldemort. > And if there's one thing Snape isn't, it's shy. " Jim: > You have to jump through a lot of hoops to interpret that memory that > way; there's no reason to believe it. Snape is remembering some of > the pain of his life. > Kneasy: I often chuckle at this. I know I'm in a minority and I admit that I could be wrong - after all I have exactly the same amount of evidence as those that claim the child is Snape - exactly zero. "But oh," they say, "it's a sequence of childhood memories." and this just a few pages after Snape carefully explains to Harry that memories are not neatly filed away but are a random jumble that have to be searched *and interpreted*. I also suspect that the teenager on the bucking broom-stick is not Snape, but James. (see posts passim). I'd rather believe in the deviousness and JKR's prediliction for deliberately misleading fans than a common consensus with no backing evidence. Jim: > They didn't have influence, but we have two examples of unkemptness, > and how many of good care? The remark about parents sending kids to > school like that was an aside, really. The point is that a kid who > doesn't look cared for at school has two strikes against him from the > outset. > Kneasy: Sorry, but this is just the sort of pop sociology that that gets the social sciences a bad name. A conclusion is reached first and supporting evidence sought later. By this standard Luna's wierd get-up is also a sign of lack of parental input. Teenage boys are not reknowned for over-scrupulous sartorial or hygiene standards. Or are you perhaps saying that Hogwarts was remiss in their care of students? Jim: > He isn't helpless, but he was humiliated and bullied on the lawn, and > the dialogue suggests the bullying was going on. James wasn't the > one shown with gray underwear shown in midair in front of half the > school; he did it while hanging out with his buddies, the "arrogant > little berks" who were good at pretty much anything they did. Is > there any reason to think Snape scored on them like that in any way, > ever? > Kneasy: Yes, he does seem to be bullied - or at least he is by today's standards. But I have a lot of problems with 'Snape's worst memory'. For a start it probably isn't his worst memory; his hatred of James et al seems to stem more from the 'prank' than from his laundry arrangements. So why isn't that one at the top? See thread 80835 - 'the worst is yet to come' for thoughts on memories, and his extreme reaction *could* be because of the other memories in the Pensieve that no-one seems to consider. Jim: > Snape's on the right side, and he's done the right thing more than > once. `Nuff. He isn't spreading sweetness and light, but that's not > a membership requirement for being one of the Good Guys in a war. > Kneasy: I think Snape is on Snape's side and the fact that it is the same side as the Order is pure chance. Your thoughts obviously differ, but have a look through the Quick Quotes, there's a transcript from the end of 2000 or the beginning of 2001. JKR is surprised that Snape is so popular and states that he is not nice but allows that there may be a chance of redemption for him in book 7. Doesn't sound like a goody to me. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 12:19:02 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:19:02 -0000 Subject: Apparition + Floo WAS Re: Apparition & Fidelius In-Reply-To: <20040215194355.1584.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91047 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, anneli lucas wrote: > Dhyana wrote: > I also noticed that nobody used floo powder to > travel to and from the house, but they did use it to > communicate with each other. > > (Elihu): > In GF, we learn that the Gryffindor fire is > connected to the network, and can be used for > communication; Black knew it, in fact. > > Anneli: > I have a problem with floo and apparition. If people's houses ... > can be entered by anybody by floo, and people can apparate willy > nilly all over the place, surely burglary would be a big problem? > ...edited... > > ... if only public buildings and outdoors could be apparated into > (... restricting who apparates into a certain place), and have > time-restrictions on the floo network so your house.... It seems > incredibly insecure otherwise. > > Anneli > bboy_mn: Two points, I want to make. First, is that the owners and occupants of every wizard's house are armed. If you are foolish enough to break into the Weasley's home, you would risk facing at least half a dozen wand tips. Certainly, if real-life burglers knew every person over the age of 11 was carrying a gun, the would be far less likely to break into houses. This brings up an additional point, your own home is not that secure. You can lock the doors a thoroughly as you want, but access to your home is still as fragile as glass. Locked doors or no locked doors, a theif can break a window and he is in. The drawback of course is that breaking windows makes noise. The point is, the even the most secure middle class home is really not all that secure, but they somehow still manage to avoid being robbed. A locked home, doesn't stop burglars; it's primary purpose is to reduces temptation for those who might break in on a whim; like kids out raising hell and getting into mischief. A real theif can by-pass almost any protection. Using Hogwarts as an example, you can't Floo or Apparate in, but there doesn't seem to be anything to stop a 'evil doer' from walking in through the front gate. It doesn't make much sense for the average wizard's home to be any more secure than the average muggles home. However, magic theives have several advantages, all quite logically having to do with magic. They, generally speaking don't have to 'break' into a home. They can just apparate in. Note that Apparation, doesn't appear to be silent. Of the examples we have, only Dumbledore and Voldemort appear to be able to apparate in close to silences. Everyone else makes some degree of popping or cracking sound. So, unless you are really really good, apparating or Flooing into a home will make some noise. But who says a thief has to break in? If they are after small valuable objectd, they could simply say 'accio gold', and it would come zooming out. But, of course, if doing so created a disturbance in the house, they also risk several angry magic folk armed with wands coming out of the house after the gold. I would think the most vulnerable places would be wizard businesses. Logically, they have the most to steal. They would have all the goods sold in the store available to anyone who might pop in in the middle of the night. However, most real-life stores take more precausions than the average home. They have re-enforced glass, iron gates they close in front of the doors and windows. They have video surveillance and burgar alarms, etc.... My second point is that we know anti-apparation charms exist. Hermione repeatedly tells us that Hogwarts is protected, and in OotP, Dumbledore uses an 'Anti-Disapparation Jinx' to bind the captured Death Eaters in the Death Chamber at the Ministry of Magic. Given the wizard world's lack of electronic serveillance and electronic burglar alarms, or any other electronic devices for that matter, it seems quite reasonable that they would have magical equivalents. It would seem a reasonable speculation that before a business owner retires for the night, he activates a magical alarm system, and casts or activates charms to prevent entry by stealth; seals his fireplace against entry, and casts anti-apparation charms. I think we can assume that Apparation has been around for a long time, and that protections against apparation have been around for nearly as long. So, yes, I can see that wizard houses could be vulnerable, but I also have to believe magic folk have solved this vulnerability a long time ago and through a variety of means. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Feb 16 12:45:47 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:45:47 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's eyes was Re: The colour "Purple" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91048 In a message dated 2/16/2004 3:54:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, sawsan_issa at earthlink.net writes: Ok, so purple is a highly spiritual color, so what is it about the color green? Harry's eyes and the fact that they are green like his mother's is very important. There are other things that are green as well in the series, such as the Slytherin colors, and the get of green light from Voldie's AK spell. I mainly would like to know how the color green is relevant to Lily and Harry's eyes. +++++++++++++++++++++ Sherrie here: Green is the color of the heart chakra (energy center - sorry, I forgot that definition before), which is why the true stone of love isn't the diamond, it's the emerald. It's the color associated with the element of Earth (as red with Fire, blue with Water, and yellow with Air - all four House colors), with fertility of mind, body and spirit; with abundance, success, money & good fortune. Some shades have slightly different meanings, though - I recall when I was studying auras that a sea-green color indicated healing abilities, while an olive green indicated deception and lies. Of course, in standard lore, green is connected with jealousy and envy... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Feb 16 13:13:18 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:13:18 -0000 Subject: Apparition + Floo WAS Re: Apparition & Fidelius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > My second point is that we know anti-apparation charms exist. Hermione > repeatedly tells us that Hogwarts is protected, and in OotP, > Dumbledore uses an 'Anti-Disapparation Jinx' to bind the captured > Death Eaters in the Death Chamber at the Ministry of Magic. > > Given the wizard world's lack of electronic serveillance and > electronic burglar alarms, or any other electronic devices for that > matter, it seems quite reasonable that they would have magical > equivalents. > > It would seem a reasonable speculation that before a business owner > retires for the night, he activates a magical alarm system, and casts > or activates charms to prevent entry by stealth; seals his fireplace > against entry, and casts anti-apparation charms. > > I think we can assume that Apparation has been around for a long time, > and that protections against apparation have been around for nearly as > long. > > So, yes, I can see that wizard houses could be vulnerable, but I also > have to believe magic folk have solved this vulnerability a long time > ago and through a variety of means. Marianne here: I that wizards can protect their homes as well as their businesses, whether by anit-apparation charms or some other method. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that charms or jinxes or whatever are used to permit some people to enter at whim while strangers are kept out. For instance, in OoP, Remus is able to unlock the front door to Grimmauld Place by the use of his wand. Everyone else who comes to the door always knocks. That's not definitive proof one way or the other, but it strikes me that this could be interpreted to mean that Remus has or knows the magical "key" to unlock the door, whereas the other members of the Order don't. IIRC this has come up before, and at least one person posted that people's natural reaction to coming up to a front door that is not their own would be to knock. Maybe so, but the members of the Order are operating with a certain need for secrecy. If they have the magical means to enter Grimmauld Place, why don't they use it, rather than hanging around outside, knocking and waking up the every charming Mrs. Black? I like to think that Sirius has quite logically given some people the key, such as Remus and Dumbledore. Also, on the matter of home security, in GoF when Sirius contacts Harry by fire he says that they might not have much time, since he had to "break into" a wizard house, and the owners could return at any time. I may be reading too much into this, but the idea of breaking into a wizard house strikes me at being more involved than simply breaking a window or jimmying a lock. I think that wizards can use charms to provide protection, and, like our locks, they are of different strengths and have different levels of protection. A really skilled wizard burglar would be one who is very adept at breaking charms like this. Maybe Bill Weasley could get a second job as a cat burglar. Marianne From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 14:37:56 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:37:56 -0000 Subject: Harry as the Narrator Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91050 I remember how a few weeks ago there were a series of posts regarding whose perspective the HP books are being told from, and who the narrator is. I was thinking yesterday that it may, in fact, be Harry telling his own story. But how, if there are chapters in it where Harry could not possibly know what is going on? Well, if I may stray a bit OT here, yesterday I was watching Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, and it occured to me that the manuscript that Frodo and Bilbo wrote ("There and Back Again" and "Lord of the Rings") was not just an account of the two hobbits adventures, but of all of the events that occured across the series of books/films. Now Frodo wasn't around for most of those, so he must have been told what happened, and transcibed it for his book. Now, back to HP, if either of the timelines that I have seen for these books is right (I have seen one where Harry's birthday is in 1980 and one where his birthday is in 1983) then we can reasonably assume that these books are taking place in the not so distant past. Perhaps Harry, after deafeating LV and graduating from Hogwarts with honors, took a gap year before getting a job and found out his own whole story, then wrote it down to be passed on to JKR and us muggles. He could then reasonably be the narrator of his very own life story, which would explain how the narrator knows all of Harry's thoughts and actions, and would also explain why it is not told in first person, as there would be parts where Harry wasn't present for the action and was presumably filled in later. So perhaps this is an indication that Harry will live to the end of book 7, as he is the one narrating it all after the fact. Submitted for approval. Meri From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 14:50:59 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:50:59 -0000 Subject: Harry's eyes was Re: The colour "Purple" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91051 snipping out the first half of the post to answer this one: > > Also, I have read that Harry's eyes are weak, and that JKR stresses > the importance of his glasses. I wonder what is so important about > ordinary, and probably cheap, muggle glasses. Why and how are they > important? Why are Harry's eyes so weak? Is it just a normal muggle > optometry problem? > > Sawsan Well, I think there are three reasons for the stressing of the glasses. A: It shows that magic is not a cure all, even for something as simple as nearsightedness (or whatever it is that Harry suffers from). If wizards as powerful as DD and McGonagal can't just point their wands at their eys and say a spell and be good as new then how can magic be expected to cure more complicated ills, like death? B: Glasses give our great hero, Harry, a weakness than a lot of kids (myslef included) can relate to. I had a pair of thick plastic specs when I was in elementary school and was taunted for them, so I get why Harry is made fun of in his pre-Hogwarts days, and I am sure a lot of kids out there do, too. (I am pretty sure there is a quote to the effect of, "no one liked that wierd Harry with his baggy clothes and taped up glasses" at the end of the Vanishing Glass in SS). And C: That Harry wears glasses shows that despite the general lack of care given to him by the Dursleys, there was enough attention paid there for his eye problem to be diagnosed and dealt with. I know that my eye problem was caught in my pre- Kindergarten physical, so Harry clearly had at least that rudimentary medical check. Whether Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon did this only to keep the muggle authorities off their backs, or because back when Harry was five the threat of intervention by a pack of wand brandishing wizards was for more real than later in Harry's life, I leave to JKR to explain. Meri From naama_gat at hotmail.com Mon Feb 16 16:19:50 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:19:50 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91052 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > Jim: > > He isn't helpless, but he was humiliated and bullied on the lawn, and the dialogue suggests the bullying was going on. James wasn't the one shown with gray underwear shown in midair in front of half the school; he did it while hanging out with his buddies, the "arrogant little berks" who were good at pretty much anything they did. Is there any reason to think Snape scored on them like that in any way, ever? > > > Kneasy: > Yes, he does seem to be bullied - or at least he is by today's standards. But I have a lot of problems with 'Snape's worst memory'. For a start it probably isn't his worst memory; his hatred of James et al seems to stem more from the 'prank' than from his laundry >arrangements. So why isn't that one at the top? The way I see it is that Snape hated James and the others before the prank. The scene we see in the pensieve *is* his worst memory, at least of the humiliated-in-school genre, and clinched his hatred of the group, and James in particular. The prank happened because Snape was obsessed by his desire for revenge. The fact that James saved his life - the person he hated most of all - put him in an unbearable emotional bind. It could tear a person to pieces, to be obligated to someone he loathes so much. When Harry came along, it revived that emotional dissonance for him - which explains his hatred of Harry, his protectiveness towards him, and the intensity of both. Another thing. There's been a consensus here regarding Snape's victim status vis a vis James. I'm not trying to justify James, but I think the realtionship between them is not as black and white as it may appear. There was a lot of discussion here about the subjectivity or otherwise of the pensieve. My opinion is that the pensieve is subjective, i.e., if you enter a memory, you can only sense what the subject of the memory sensed. If so, Snape, for all he seemed so engrossed with checking his test, was actually in a position to hear what MWPP were saying. It's an example, in fact, of Snape's spying on them. I think it's also very significant that he was so quick to draw his wand, since it implies that he was very much aware of their presence. Also, he was the first to physically attack, and James who retaliated. So, although we see a scene in which Snape is bullied, I wouldn't say that he was necessarily a victim. At least not an entirely innocent victim. Naama From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Feb 16 16:39:07 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:39:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's eyes was Re: The colour "Purple" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91053 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > Also, I have read that Harry's eyes are weak, and that JKR stresses > the importance of his glasses. I wonder what is so important about > ordinary, and probably cheap, muggle glasses. Why and how are they > important? Why are Harry's eyes so weak? Is it just a normal muggle > optometry problem? Jen: Here's the JKR interview qoute on Harry's glasses: She's thrilled with Stephen Fry's taped version of the books, outraged that an Italian dust jacket shows Harry minus his glasses. "Don't they understand that they are the clue to his vulnerability?" http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1200- readersdigest-boquet.htm I favor the theory that Harry's weak eyes are somehow connected with dragons eyes,since they are also most vulnerable in this area. The Conjunctivitis curse can wound a dragon--could it also wound Harry? But now he has the Impervious charm on them, thanks to Hermione, so perhaps as long as he has his glasses he's protected. So, does that mean Harry has dragon blood? We're still waiting for the mystery of the 12 Uses of Dragon Blood. Since the dragons have such tough hides and are virtually inpenetrable, one use of their blood may be for defensive measures. Dragon blood could have been a component in the Charm Dumbledore placed on Harry that was separate from Lily's blood sacrifice. Anyway, here's a TBAY from a few months back on this issue, where grannybat had some thoughts that Snape and Hagrid were involved in a potion containing dragon blood that might have protected Harry. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83354 Jen From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Sun Feb 15 22:57:06 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:57:06 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Attack on Lily and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91054 Sue wrote: > Voldemort did not have to apparate Bellatrix with him, I am > sure she can do it by herself. They probably just went together. > It seems to me that if the Potter's could have apparated holding > thier son, they would have. As another poster noted, the Weasley's > don't apparate with their children either, it probabley means you > can't. Hey Thanks for replies. But about the Weasley family not Apparating their children, wouldn't it be against the law to Apparate them? The Weaseley parents would be helping this children break the magical decree against the use of underage magic. I assume you would be able to Apparate a child in a life threatening situation only, that is why they do not Apparate their kids. Still we do not know if you can Apparate while holding on to something; but something as small as an infant and two highly capable wizards can't Apparate it? Just doesn't make sense to me. And I don't have the OoTP in front of me, but I seem to remember DD having to use a specific spell that tied up the DEs together, and didn't allow the Apparate. While James was holding Voldemort off, why didn't Lily take Harry and go? Can anyone find any references in the books where someone Apparates will holding something? I know its small but DD appears (maybe Apparates) onto Private Dr, and still has the contents of his pockets (Put- outer), so why not put baby Harry in a backpack kid carrier and run for it? John From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Feb 16 14:49:12 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:49:12 -0000 Subject: What are Dark Arts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91055 I have some questions about Dark Arts and DADA. DADA in the first years is more about getting rid of magical pests than fighting dark arts. After Ron attempts the slug curse on Malfoy, Hermione comments "That curse is difficult to do under the best circumstances." (paraphrased from CoS) Hermione puts a spell on the D.A. list that hexes anyone who betrays the group.(OoP) With all the hexes, curses and jinxes that are being performed by fairly young students at Hogwarts, just what separates dark magic from regular magic? We're told in OoP that young Snape was up to his eyeballs in dark magic, and that James hated dark magic.(by Sirius) We're told in PoA that the Marauders' map is full of dark magic.(by Snape) Lupin later gives it back to Harry, so he must not think it's dark magic. We don't know if Snape was just poking at Lupin, setting up a red herring for Harry, or in his opinion it is dark. I'm under the belief here that Snape knows who created the map. Just about any of the magic the students are being taught could be used for good or evil. So, what are Dark Arts? Does anyone have a good feel for this? Does anyone have a canon reference about this? Potioncat From pfsch at gmx.de Mon Feb 16 11:19:59 2004 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:19:59 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91056 Carol: [...] but I do think her peculiar way of seeing things will prove important, as will the rune connection. (Maybe, as I said in another post, she'll point out to Hermione that Harry's scar is an eihwaz rune and send Hermione scurrying to the library.) Anatol (Peter) now: That one would fit. In OotP (ch31 p631 UK), Hermione says the eihwaz rune (an "N" rotated by 45? to the left) means "defence". When I looked it up at some page about celtic/germanic runes, it showed other meanings, but that might differ in the WW. By the way, my hometown Ibbenb?ren (Eibenburen?) was possibly named after the tree that rune stands for (Eibe = yew tree). ;) So I expect to hear more of it in coming books. Carol again: Or could there be a connection between "Loony" Luna and "Loony Loopy Lupin"? Anatol: I must confess, I confused Luna and Lupin reading that, so that's not improbable. Bye Anatol (www.setrok.de) - Harry/Luna shipper. ;) From bcbgx6 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 06:19:29 2004 From: bcbgx6 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:19:29 -0000 Subject: The Flitwick Irony Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91057 I am not against it, but it seems that one of our favorite commonplaces is the seemingly jovial (or even ineffectual) character who can really kick ass. Flitwick, as JKR has written him, is one of these, in my view. She has written him as a dueling champion. In OOTP, she gives him some sarcasm when he rebels against Umbridge. Interestingly, she gives him a squeaky voice and an affectionate nature. He is almost certainly the one who squeaks "even for muggles such as yourselves" to Uncle Vernon in PS. She has him ordering the most ridiculous, impotent, apparently nonalcoholic drink in CoS. He smacks his lips when Madame Rosmerta brings it by. Clearly, Flitwick is not one to be effed with. I would almost bet that Flitwick will, before the end of the series, demonstrate Yoda-like wizardry virtuosity. Agree? From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 17:10:34 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:10:34 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91058 Hey. I'm just going to step right in the middle of this discussion between Jim and Kneasy. I really liked Naama's thoughts, because they explain some of my opinion. There seems to be a general consensus of either Snape is selfish and cruel, or simply the innocent victim, who is the ways he is because of his childhood. I personally thing both opinions are wrong, not completely, but too subjective. I try to look back on how I viewed Snape before Book 4 - GOF being when we begin to realize more than ever that DD trusts Snape for a reason. Besides the fact that Snape saved Harry's life, which as Naama said, was more out of duty and a sense of vain honor than out of any affinity for Harry, Snape was cruel (and still is). We know he hated Harry's father, but he can't seem to separate the father and son. From the moment Harry stepped across the threshold of Hogwarts, Snape has pretty much made it one of his life goals to make Harry as miserable as is in his power to do. The man is over 35 years old (referencing a JKR interview), a teacher for heaven's sake, and he can't get over what happened between him and a dead man over twenty years ago. I'm sorry, but that's just... sad (in a pathetic, pitiful sense). And he takes it out an eleven year-old- boy, who just happens to have the misfortune of being James Potter's son, and looking just like his paternal parent. That's why I always find the Harry/Snape animosity arguments slightly surreal. Snape is the adult, and though I can't relate to that, I hope by the time I'm in my thirties I will have the sense of maturity not to take my hang-ups out on my students (since I want to be a teacher). I feel for Snape, and what he went through as a fifteen-year-old boy, but he's grown, he's supposed to set the example to follow, and yet he's been attacking Harry just because Harry reminds him forcefully of his father. If he can't get past that, he should at least be a big enough person to avoid interacting with Harry. I completely relate with Harry on his feelings towards Snape. How can you not hate (or at least, extremely dislike) a man who has been attacking you, unprovoked, just because you exist? Isn't that why Snape hated James? And at least James was still an immature teenager, and not a fully grown man. Yes, Harry's unrelenting hatred towards Snape at the end of Book 5 is unreasonable, but that was the only time I ever thought, "Harry, you shouldn't feel that way about him." And Harry is incredibly depressed at that point, so I couldn't blame him for his feelings, especially when Harry must have known that Snape doesn't give a damn whether Sirius is alive or not. If you were Harry, would you honestly trust Snape just because DD does? No. Hermione works on reason, Harry more on emotion, and Harry greatly values loyalty. Trust is something that is earned. And Hermione doesn't trust Snape, she trusts DD, so she believes his opinion of Snape must be, at the very least, slightly accurate. Snape saved Harry's life, yes, but for his own reasons. Every other moment he is belittling Harry, trying to fail him purposely, and trying to get him expelled (especially before Book 4). I wouldn't trust Snape, either, especially considering he was once a DE - he once stood beside those who would have watched Harry die, a fourteen- year-old child. And for the record, I don't trust Snape. However, before all the Snape sympathizers jump on my case, I do empathize with Severus Snape. He did change sides, and DD must trust him for some reason. And, no matter why he did it, he did save Harry's life, which would win points from me any day. And after that memory in the Pensieve, I was completely with Harry. Never though I'd feel overly sorry for the man, but after that I verily did. There is more to Snape, obviously, more than we've been told. And I don't hate him as a character, I just think he needs to grow up, just as I thought Sirius needed to grow up to an extent, though Sirius' case was more understandable, considering he spent more than a third of his life in Azkaban. But I do think Snape is on his own side. Not in the way Peter is (a.k.a. makes sure his own a** is covered first), but in that I think Snape always steps back and views his options, and how he may gain from one option to another. Do I think Snape is an inherently cruel man? No, but I do think he's selfish. Just as I will never believe he's an inherently good man. He loves the Dark Arts and joined Voldemort at one point - that should stand for something. But I don't think he's evil, just perhaps too human (implying original sin and inherent flaws). Snape will probably never be on my fave character list, though I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. But he hasn't earned my trust, yet. And if the vampire rumors turn out to be true, though I doubt it, then in the words of Lavendar Brown (commenting on the Blast-Ended Screwts)... ergh. ~ Hitomi, who is wasting time by posting from her study lab because she's bored, and finds this more interesting ;) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 17:13:24 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:13:24 -0000 Subject: Harry as the Narrator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91059 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > I remember how a few weeks ago there were a series of posts > regarding whose perspective the HP books are being told from, and > who the narrator is. I was thinking yesterday that it may, in fact, > be Harry telling his own story. But how, if there are chapters in it > where Harry could not possibly know what is going on? Well, if I may > stray a bit OT here, yesterday I was watching Lord of the Rings: The > Return of the King, and it occured to me that the manuscript that > Frodo and Bilbo wrote ("There and Back Again" and "Lord of the > Rings") was not just an account of the two hobbits adventures, but > of all of the events that occured across the series of books/films. > Now Frodo wasn't around for most of those, so he must have been told > what happened, and transcibed it for his book. Now, back to HP, if > either of the timelines that I have seen for these books is right (I > have seen one where Harry's birthday is in 1980 and one where his > birthday is in 1983) then we can reasonably assume that these books > are taking place in the not so distant past. Perhaps Harry, after > deafeating LV and graduating from Hogwarts with honors, took a gap > year before getting a job and found out his own whole story, then > wrote it down to be passed on to JKR and us muggles. He could then > reasonably be the narrator of his very own life story, which would > explain how the narrator knows all of Harry's thoughts and actions, > and would also explain why it is not told in first person, as there > would be parts where Harry wasn't present for the action and was > presumably filled in later. So perhaps this is an indication that > Harry will live to the end of book 7, as he is the one narrating it > all after the fact. > Submitted for approval. > Meri The Harry Potter books use a limited omniscient narrator, that is, a voice that tells the story mostly from one person's (often unreliable) point of view, but occasionally from outside the characters if the POV character isn't present (as in the dialogue between Dumbledore and McGonagall in SS/PS chapter one or the scene where Hermione sets fire to Snape's robe) or even from another character's POV (as when she gets inside Uncle Vernon's mind but still reports events that he doesn't see in SS/PS chapter one). A limited omniscient perspective is no guarantee that the protagonist will live (though I personally think he will). Not even a first-person point of view guarantees that. (Ever read "All Quiet on the Western Front"? As for LOTR, the narrator is supposedly an "editor" whose primary source is the Red Book of Westmarch, written by Bilbo and Frodo but incorporating chapters not involving either character, for example the adventures of Merry and Pippin, which presumably they related to Frodo and he recorded from their perspective. I don't think JKR is going that far--pretending to adapt Harry's adventures as he has related them in his memoirs (written rather soon after the fact or even before the fact!) to a third-person narrative. IIRC, Harry would be 23 going on 24 this year and would have been all of seventeen when Book One came out. He wouldn't have had time to record his adventures at that point. So, again, IMO the limited third-person narrator is a standard literary device enabling JKR to tell the story mostly from Harry's POV but to shift away from it as needed (which a first-person narrator could not do). Many books, including many modern novels, use this type of narration, whether or not the protagonist survives to the end of the story. Carol From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Feb 16 17:37:13 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:37:13 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91060 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > > The way I see it is that Snape hated James and the others before the > prank. The scene we see in the pensieve *is* his worst memory, at > least of the humiliated-in-school genre, and clinched his hatred of > the group, and James in particular. The prank happened because Snape > was obsessed by his desire for revenge. The fact that James saved his > life - the person he hated most of all - put him in an unbearable > emotional bind. It could tear a person to pieces, to be obligated to > someone he loathes so much. When Harry came along, it revived that > emotional dissonance for him - which explains his hatred of Harry, > his protectiveness towards him, and the intensity of both. > Kneasy: Personally, I can't see that embarassment is a worse memory than the bowel-loosening experience of suddenly facing a were-wolf. But maybe that's just me. Lots of fans have spent many hours trying to figure out when these events happened in the time-line and a rough consensus has emerged - but we still don't know for certain. And anyway, would embarassment be worse than some of the things he did as a DE? Killing, perhaps? Namaa: > Another thing. There's been a consensus here regarding Snape's victim > status vis a vis James. I'm not trying to justify James, but I think > the realtionship between them is not as black and white as it may > appear. There was a lot of discussion here about the subjectivity or > otherwise of the pensieve. My opinion is that the pensieve is > subjective, i.e., if you enter a memory, you can only sense what the > subject of the memory sensed. If so, Snape, for all he seemed so > engrossed with checking his test, was actually in a position to hear > what MWPP were saying. It's an example, in fact, of Snape's spying on > them. I think it's also very significant that he was so quick to draw > his wand, since it implies that he was very much aware of their > presence. Also, he was the first to physically attack, and James who > retaliated. > So, although we see a scene in which Snape is bullied, I wouldn't say > that he was necessarily a victim. At least not an entirely innocent > victim. > Kneasy: I agree about the relationship between the two. It is subjective and possibly open to re-interpretation for that reason. The 'spying' theory in the Pensieve memory is a bit problematical. It's a passage that has always left me feeling dissatisfied. As they all leave the exam hall Snape is separated from the rest by a group of chattering girls, followed by a log-jam at the doorway. Yet we are expected to accept that Snape can still hear every word exchanged by the Marauders. I'm not convinced. It's could be resolved if entry into a Pensieve memory allows access to the words and actions of all persons in the sight of the person whose memory it is. In fact, that would make the Pensieve itself an object used for studying a situation instead of a straight play-back device, rather as a hologram allows different perspectives to be observed from an apparently single viewpoint. More information is needed before I'll feel happy about resolving the issue. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 17:38:48 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:38:48 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91061 > > Kneasy: > The way I see it is that Snape hated James and the others before the > prank. The scene we see in the pensieve *is* his worst memory, at > least of the humiliated-in-school genre, and clinched his hatred of > the group, and James in particular. The prank happened because Snape > was obsessed by his desire for revenge. The fact that James saved his > life - the person he hated most of all - put him in an unbearable > emotional bind. It could tear a person to pieces, to be obligated to > someone he loathes so much. When Harry came along, it revived that > emotional dissonance for him - which explains his hatred of Harry, > his protectiveness towards him, and the intensity of both. Carol: Exactly. IMO, James' death was a blow to Snape because it left him in a bind, owing James a life debt, which he's now trying to repay by protecting/saving Harry. BTW, does anyone have any theories about what happens when a life debt is not paid? Naama: > There was a lot of discussion here about the subjectivity or > otherwise of the pensieve. My opinion is that the pensieve is > subjective, i.e., if you enter a memory, you can only sense what the > subject of the memory sensed. If so, Snape, for all he seemed so > engrossed with checking his test, was actually in a position to hear > what MWPP were saying. Carol: Harry has to hurry away from Severus to hear what MWPP are saying. Severus is immersed in his test, apparently not paying attention to where he's going. When he realizes they're present (James greets him nastily with "All right, Snivellus?"), Severus goes for his wand, but not quickly enough. If he'd been listening to their conversation, he'd have been more alert. He also would have known that Remus was a werewolf, a fact he didn't learn until the Prank the next year. If the memory were subjective, Harry would be limited to Snape's POV, reading the exam sheet and Severus's answers. As it is, he can move about inside the memory, just as if he were present (but invisible). He is not inside Snape's mind and does not know his thoughts or sense his feelings. He observes Severus and MWPP from the outside, or rather from his own perspective, just as he observes the trials from his own perspective rather than Dumbledore's in the earlier Pensieve scenes. (He doesn't know who the four people are in the Lestrange/Crouch trial. Had it been from Dumbledore's POV, he would have known exactly who they were.) Carol, who reminds Kneasy that someone does agree with him about those other memories in Snape's pensieve. See my post #90408. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90408 From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 16 17:41:54 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:41:54 -0000 Subject: Rrandom questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91062 snip Carol wrote: A wand bought at Ollivander's is presumably suitable for the eleven- year-old whose > parent or guardian buys it, but wizards whose powers develop greatly > while they're at Hogwarts very likely buy a second wand later. > > Carol, who remembers Mr. Ollivander saying that every wand is > different and wonders how Fred's differs from George's Thanks for the response Carol, as always very insightful. It will be interesting then to see if any of the school letters for year six include in the supply list a new wand because the student has shown a particular propensity for a given subject. Fred and George are something else again. As I pondered the differences in their wands, I began to wonder about other things as well. Did they get the same three OWLS or different ones. It makes sense to me that they would each have concentrated on different subjects so that together there knowledge would cover a broader spectrum without having to work so hard. Why three? I know there has been a great deal of discussion about the OWLS and it makes me wonder if they only received their practical OWL and not the written. To do what they do, they have to know a lot about potions, transfiguration, and charms. It seems both of them would have done well in DADA, just because they like it (the whole curse thing I mean). And how hard is Care of Magical Creatures? Any thoughts? Sue From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 17:44:43 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:44:43 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Attack on Lily and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91063 John wrote: While James was holding > Voldemort off, why didn't Lily take Harry and go? Can anyone find > any references in the books where someone Apparates will holding > something? I know its small but DD appears (maybe Apparates) onto > Private Dr, and still has the contents of his pockets (Put- outer), so why > not put baby Harry in a backpack kid carrier and run for it? Carol: I think that not being able to apparate another person is part of the answer (apparation--or apparition?--is IMO a form of self-transportaion only), but much more important is the fact that she could save Harry from Voldemort only through self-sacrifice. That's why she kept screaming, "Not Harry! Kill me instead!" Carol From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 17:45:16 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:45:16 -0000 Subject: What are Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91064 Potioncat: > I have some questions about Dark Arts and DADA. DADA in the first > years is more about getting rid of magical pests than fighting dark > arts. Hitomi: Actually, we don't know this. Lupin basically used his own curriculum, and Quirrell and Lockhart weren't teachers, I don't care if they got paid in that occupation. We don't know what you're supposed to learn in DADA before N.E.W.T. level. Most of what Harry knows is self-taught, or personally influenced and sought after. If he needed to know how to do something, he got help, or used it over and over out of need (ex. "Expelliarmus"). > After Ron attempts the slug curse on Malfoy, Hermione comments "That > curse is difficult to do under the best circumstances." (paraphrased > from CoS) > Hermione puts a spell on the D.A. list that hexes anyone who betrays > the group.(OoP) With all the hexes, curses and jinxes that are being > performed by fairly young students at Hogwarts, just what separates > dark magic from regular magic? Hitomi: I wouldn't call these hexes Dark Magic, personally. Inappropriate, annoying magic, yes, but not evil magic, which is what Dark Arts implies. The Unforgivable Curses are evil, as is that spell LV used to bring himself back at the end of Book 4. Basically magic that seriously undermines your free will, or causes serious harm. The intent behind some of the hexes the students use might be evil, but the magic itself, no. The Jelly Legs curse is actually kind of funny. Which I think is JKR's argument. Intention. People should only be praised or blamed for what they meant to do, and thus, chose to do. Which is why a lot of the arguments by all the Christian fundamentalists (some of which are family members of mine) are ridiculous. They read the books - if they actually read them, instead of judging them right of the bat, which I know some do - purely on a technical, literal level. Most of the magic in "Harry Potter" is a practical device. You need a light, you say "Lumos." You need to unlock a door, you say "Alohomora." The wizard using the magic is what makes the difference, and there is some magic most wizards would refuse to use, like "Avada Kedavra." The books are more metaphorical and figurative than I think a lot of the Bible Belt would like to believe. I'm surprised they don't find C.S. Lewis evil. > We're told in OoP that young Snape was up to his eyeballs in dark > magic, and that James hated dark magic.(by Sirius) We're told in PoA > that the Marauders' map is full of dark magic.(by Snape) Lupin later > gives it back to Harry, so he must not think it's dark magic. We > don't know if Snape was just poking at Lupin, setting up a red > herring for Harry, or in his opinion it is dark. I'm under the belief > here that Snape knows who created the map. Hitomi: Personally, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that Snape knew who created that map. Snape would more than likely recognize is an object was of evil magic, and was pretty much setting that up for Harry and Lupin. That conversation was on a thought-procession level, versus what was actually said. Snape probably came from a family not unlike Sirius', perhaps not as wealthy, but just as dark. The Mauraders hated the Dark Arts, because they detested what was evil, or what they believed to be wrong, never realizing they were just as bad at times in their immaturity. Snape studied the stuff purposely. Magic more than likely meant to harm, or gain at the expense of another. Hence, he represented "evil" to the Marauders, so they tore him down. Doesn't make Snape inherently evil, just makes him of questionable character, considering he wanted to study dark magic. And James... well, we already want to smack him upside the head. > Just about any of the magic the students are being taught could be > used for good or evil. So, what are Dark Arts? Does anyone have a > good feel for this? Does anyone have a canon reference about this? Hitomi: Again, magic meant to cause harm, or gain on the intent of cupidity and avarice, especially at the expense of another, and/or any magic that undermines your freedom of will. Most of the anti-jinxes are similar, considering they wouldn't be effective if they were not, but they don't cause unnecessary damage, they are meant solely to counteract the original jinx. But intent changes everything, concerning any form of magic; just as it does in the real world, concerning any choice we make. ~ Hitomi From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 16 18:03:59 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:03:59 -0000 Subject: What are Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91065 potioncat wrote: << I have some questions about Dark Arts and DADA. DADA in the first years is more about getting rid of magical pests than fighting dark arts. After Ron attempts the slug curse on Malfoy, Hermione comments "That curse is difficult to do under the best circumstances." (paraphrased from CoS) Hermione puts a spell on the D.A. list that hexes anyone who betrays the group.(OoP) With all the hexes, curses and jinxes that are being performed by fairly young students at Hogwarts, just what separates dark magic from regular magic? We're told in OoP that young Snape was up to his eyeballs in dark magic, and that James hated dark magic.(by Sirius) We're told in PoA that the Marauders' map is full of dark magic.(by Snape) Lupin later gives it back to Harry, so he must not think it's dark magic. We don't know if Snape was just poking at Lupin, setting up a red herring for Harry, or in his opinion it is dark. I'm under the belief here that Snape knows who created the map. Just about any of the magic the students are being taught could be used for good or evil. So, what are Dark Arts? Does anyone have a good feel for this? Does anyone have a canon reference about this?>> Sigune here: This is a very interesting question. I am trying my hand at fanfic and find that I really have trouble finding out what constitutes "Dark magic" - I'd be happy with any canon references, but I don't think much can be found. However - The HP Lexicon says that the Darkness of a spell has everything to do with the intention of the caster. Hermione's jinx would not qualify as Dark magic because she casts it in order to protect the DA rather than harm someone. But the same reasoning would make Ron's Slug- Thingy-Curse Dark, as his intentions towards Malfoy are obviously less than friendly. (As to the Marauders' map, I believe, like you, that Snape knows very well who made it; and I think his purpose in calling it Dark is simply to confront Lupin with it.) The Lexicon's explanation certainly seems to make sense for the Unforgivable Curses: you cannot possibly cast them /without/ the intention to harm someone; indeed, they are apparently fuelled by hatred and an ardent wish to cause pain. On the other hand, I don't think intention is all there is to it; and as you remark, students use jinxes and hexes and curses on each other all the time. I am also thinking of the Duelling Club: surely Dumbledore would not have allowed it if duelling qualifies as Dark magic, and I should think that duelling /always/ implies an intention to hit the other person with a spell. If the very nature of a jinx makes it Dark, then we end up with an Umbridgean definition of Dark Arts :). I believe that a classic example of Dark magic (I am in fact thinking of Marlowe's Doctor Faustus here) would be Necromancy. In Faustus' case this involves conjuring a devil to serve him. There are the obvious religious connotations here - Faustus' magic (as indeed /all/ magic, in this context) is Dark because he forsakes God and calls in a devil to help him to whatever he may like. There is nothing of this kind in the Potterverse; there is not a single mention of devils or demons, so that is not very helpful to any attempt at definition. As to Necromancy, there is the well-known instance where Voldemort tries to lure Harry into helping him by promising to bring back his parents; that qualifies as Dark Arts to me. But then I wonder if Voldemort really has this kind of power. If he has, he could conjure back his fallen Death Eaters to help him and, God forbid, create an army of zombies (bl?h). Lastly, I suppose anything that involves mutilation or sacrifice or blood of a human being would be considered Dark - like the potion that restored Voldemort to his body. The Darkness here has less to do with intention than with the obvious fact that you need to physically hurt someone in order for the magic to be done. Hm - re-reading what I just wrote I think the points I made are all rather obvious. Sorry for that - just the first thoughts that crossed my mind when reading your post... Yours severely, Sigune From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 18:03:27 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:03:27 -0000 Subject: Rrandom questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91066 Sue wrote: > Fred and George are something else again. As I pondered the > differences in their wands, I began to wonder about other things as > well. Did they get the same three OWLS or different ones. It makes > sense to me that they would each have concentrated on different > subjects so that together there knowledge would cover a broader > spectrum without having to work so hard. Why three? I know there > has been a great deal of discussion about the OWLS and it makes me > wonder if they only received their practical OWL and not the > written. To do what they do, they have to know a lot about potions, > transfiguration, and charms. It seems both of them would have done > well in DADA, just because they like it (the whole curse thing I > mean). And how hard is Care of Magical Creatures? Hitomi: Just some quick thoughts of mine, and I too, liked your idea on the subject, Carol. I think Fred and George probably either, a) didn't take the O.W.L.'s seriously, and screwed around durning examination, and/or b) know tons of "flashy" stuff, in Hermione's words, but not stuff they're actually supposed to know (and they probably didn't practice what they're supposed to know, either, but they use the "flashy" stuff all the time). They're intelligent, though, that much is obvious. And wonderfully ingenious. I also think Fred and George purposely, at least on a subconcious level, set themselves up for failure systematically. They fight the system. Which seems to be a rebellion against being the younger brothers of Percy more than anything else, and also a need to strive for their own identity after Bill and Percy, much like Ron, except the twins have already covered that outlet (of being the complete opposite). What has always striked me as slightly odd is the fact that JKR never really differentiates between the twins. Fred goes out with Angelina at the Yule Ball, but other than that, they're practically the same person. I've always been curious to know what makes them different. And I really hope Harry visits their shop next year. ~ Hitomi From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 18:19:16 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:19:16 -0000 Subject: Weasley twins (Was: Re: Random questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91067 > Hitomi: > Just some quick thoughts of mine, and I too, liked your idea on the > subject, Carol. I think Fred and George probably either, a) didn't > take the O.W.L.'s seriously, and screwed around durning examination, > and/or b) know tons of "flashy" stuff, in Hermione's words, but not > stuff they're actually supposed to know (and they probably didn't > practice what they're supposed to know, either, but they use > the "flashy" stuff all the time). They're intelligent, though, that > much is obvious. And wonderfully ingenious. > > I also think Fred and George purposely, at least on a subconcious > level, set themselves up for failure systematically. They fight the > system. Which seems to be a rebellion against being the younger > brothers of Percy more than anything else, and also a need to strive > for their own identity after Bill and Percy, much like Ron, except > the twins have already covered that outlet (of being the complete > opposite). What has always striked me as slightly odd is the fact > that JKR never really differentiates between the twins. Fred goes > out with Angelina at the Yule Ball, but other than that, they're > practically the same person. I've always been curious to know what > makes them different. > Carol: I think Fred was born first, which is why they're always referrd to as Fred and George, never George and Fred. He also seems to be the leader most of the time, although they seem able almost to read each other's minds and seldom disagree. I think there are subtle differences, though. George is more thoughtful most of the time. He's the one who was worried about blackmailing Ludo Bagman. Also, when their mother joins them in Grimmauld Place, Fred reacts to her words by falling backward into his chair with his hands over his face (or something like that), but George and Ginny go over to their mother and hug her. Also it was Fred, not George, who turned little Ronnie's teddy bear into a spider. I don't much care for Fred, but I do have some affection for George. Still, I would hate to have either twin die and the other have to live without him. I think the grief would be unbearable. BTW, if the Weasley twins marry the Patil twins, I think Fred would marry Parvati (the Gryffindor) and George would marry Padma (the Ravenclaw). Fred is slightly more mischievous; George has a serious side even if he's not an intellectual. Carol, who almost forgot to sign her post From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 16 18:36:07 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:36:07 -0000 Subject: DD's scar [was:Re: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II] In-Reply-To: <005a01c3f373$ec4ffec0$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91068 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy Jenkins" wrote: > > Remember when DD said that he had a scar on his knee that was a perfect map of the London underground? I've often wondered if that scar was meaningful somehow... Maybe DD was able to defeat his dark wizard by use of the scar, or maybe it gives him insight into Harry's scar because he also has one. > > At any rate, it seems when DD lets something slip it's for a purpose... The Room of requirements, his brother and goat link, socks, the chocolate frogs; I bet they are all clues to something, and his knee scar fits this category. > Siriusly Snapey Susan now: I've always thought that scar of the London Underground might become important in terms of GRINGOTTS and any potential difficulties w/ the goblins siding w/ Voldy. According to Hagrid, the Gringotts vaults are "hundreds of miles under London, see. Deep under the Undergound." HMMMM...that seems rather an interesting coincidence? Siriusly Snapey Susan From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 19:17:28 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:17:28 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Neri: > Can Harry steal information from LV's mind, and how would he > know if it is genuine or a ruse? Carol: > I don't think either can steal information, or ideas, from the other. Annemehr: I believe Carol is right. Voldemort never read that the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix is located at Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place, did he? He never knew that Sirius was the one person Harry would do anything for, either, until Kreacher spilled the beans. He couldn't tell that Harry had no idea that there was a prophecy. So why was Dumbledore so insistent on keeping secrets from Harry (except for the all-important location of the Order's HQ)? Why couldn't he have had McGonagall tell Harry just enough to calm him a bit? Did he fear that searching Harry's mind from a distance was a skill that Voldemort might have learned before too long? Harry seemed to see into Voldemort's mind at times when Voldemort was concentrating on something important, when he was intent on something. If Dumbledore had found some way of easing some of Harry's concerns, wouldn't that have made it that much *harder* for Voldemort to access Harry's mind? Either there's more behind Dumbledore's decisions than we know, or this scar connection is unique to even his experience and everyone is learning on the fly, including Dumbledore and the readers. And now we come to the part where I will quibble! Carol: > BTW, there was nothing wrong with Snape's teaching methods. > It's Harry who resisted Snape because he didn't trust him; Harry who > refused to clear his mind or calm himself; Harry who wanted to > continue dreaming about the passage in the MoM; Harry who looked in > the Pensieve, violating Snape's privacy to satisfy his own curiosity. Harry has been accused of never practicing Occlumency so often on this list you'd think it was canon, so I'm always ready to jump in and quote a bit of OoP! Perhaps there was nothing wrong with Snape's method during the Occlumency lessons themselves. However, Snape *sabotaged* the Occlumency lessons during Potions lessons by making it impossible for Harry to ever have a potion sample graded. Maybe Snape's intent was not to undermine the Occlumency lessons but rather to have a little fun at Harry's expense, but undermine the lessons he did. Besides, I'm sure Harry tried harder than you give him credit for. I don't remember any canon evidence that Harry resisted Snape because he didn't trust him, but I do know of evidence that Harry did try, at least sometimes, to clear his mind. It is true that he never overcame his strong curiousity about the passage, and I give you the point about the pensieve one hundred per cent. To support my arguments about Snape's sabotage and Harry's attempts to practice, I'll quote parts of my message #88063: ------------------------------------------ In [OoP] ch. 25, beginning on p. 553 (US): "In fact Harry would have given a great deal to be making as much progress at Occlumency as Neville was making during D.A. meetings. [skip several paragraphs to p. 554] 'I am working!' said Harry, nettled. 'You try it sometime, Snape trying to get inside your head, it's not a bundle of laughs, you know!'" So Harry says he's working at it, and there is no indication that he's lying, no feelings of guilt that he hasn't tried. Then, ch. 26 (p. 577 US): "After a few minutes, however, he remembered that he was supposed to be emptying his mind of all emotions before he slept, as Snape kept instructing him at the end of every Occlumency lesson. He tried for a moment or two, but the thought of Snape on top of memories of Umbridge merely increased his sense of grumbling resentment, and he found himself focusing instead on how much he loathed the pair of them...." Finally, in ch.28 (p. 636 US), just before Harry explores Snape's pensieve: "Harry spent the whole of the next day dreading what Snape was going to say if he found out how much farther into the Department of Mysteries he had penetrated during his last dream. With a surge of guilt he realized that he had not practiced Occlumency once since their last lesson: There had been too much going on since Dumbledore had left. He was sure he would not have been able to empty his mind even if he had tried. He doubted, however, whether Snape would accept that excuse.... He attempted a little last-minute practice during classes that day, but it was no good, Hermione kept asking him what was wrong whenever he fell silent trying to rid himself of all thought and emotion and, after all, the best moment to empty his brain was not while teachers were firing review questions at the class." I assert that the first paragraph of this quote implies that Harry had been trying to practice Occlumency *before* the previous lesson. --------------------------------------------- Carol: > Harry needs to > learn to trust Snape, and now that he knows why occlumency is > necessary, he could probably learn it from him. Unfortunately that > won't happen because *Harry* has shown himself to be untrustworthy and > Snape will refuse to teach him. Annemehr: Harry will probably need to learn to trust Snape, at least in a wary sort of way, but I say "good riddance" to Snape's Occlumency lessons at this point. My own personal feeling, of course! Carol: So now it will probably have to be > Dumbledore, who will have to use the same methods that Snape did. If > you want to learn occlumency, you have to learn to resist legilmency. > There's no other way. Annemehr: You say that like it's a bad thing! ;-) Oooo, I wouldn't mind it if Harry did a Protego while Dumbledore was using Legilimency on him! Annemehr From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 16 19:40:46 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:40:46 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91070 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > But still, as I said in another post, I can only > account for about 28, including three dead ones, Karkaroff, and our > favorite ex-DE, Snape. But I'm still coming up about 372 short. > > Carol Call me simplistic, but I think it's just as it is with the Hogwarts students. We are familiar now with, what?, 50, 60, 70 student names? Yet we know JKR said there are HUNDREDS of students there. Likewise, we are familiar with a couple of dozen Death Eater names, and similarly, there may be many times that number we've just not heard about. I mean, where in the books would it make sense for JKR to have given us a listing of DEs? Just as we don't get a full Hogwarts roster for each year, we don't get a roster of DEs. I think that's partly because it's more character names than we need or could handle and partly because JKR wants to keep some secrets. Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 16 19:46:37 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:46:37 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > BTW, there was nothing wrong with Snape's teaching methods. He gave > Harry useful information, warned him that he would need to resist > the Legilmency spell, allowed him to use his wand to defend > himself, and told him to practice and to clear his mind of all > emotions both before each session and before he went to sleep at > night. > It's Harry who resisted Snape because he didn't trust him; Harry who > refused to clear his mind or calm himself.... I would submit, however, that Snape [purposely?] did nothing to ASSIST Harry, either. Neither did he DEMONSTRATE how to block the legilimens spell NOR did he help Harry or give him time to clear his mind of thoughts/emotions. Snape began so quickly--and with NO real guidance or instruction--that it frustrated the hell out of Harry. He then did nothing to calm Harry nor help him learn how to clear his mind or tone down his emotions. Snape HAD to know that he riles Harry up, and yet he was unable/unwilling to set aside his own dislike of Harry in order to truly explain what was happening and HOW to do what he was expecting of him. Snape may have provided Harry w/ instruction, yes, but I don't agree that there was nothing wrong with his teaching methods. In fact, he could have done a MUCH better job of it, especially at the beginning. Siriusly Snapey Susan From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Feb 16 20:10:45 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:10:45 -0000 Subject: What are Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91072 Sigune: > (As to the Marauders' map, I believe, like you, that Snape knows very well who made it; and I think his purpose in calling it Dark is simply to confront Lupin with it.)< Are we sure the Marauders would never sully themselves with Dark Magic? Maybe James wouldn't willingly do so, but it could be that one of the others wasn't above taking a short cut and not telling James about it. Sigune said: > I believe that a classic example of Dark magic (I am in fact thinking of Marlowe's Doctor Faustus here) would be Necromancy. In Faustus' case this involves conjuring a devil to serve him. There are the obvious religious connotations here - Faustus' magic (as indeed /all/ magic, in this context) is Dark because he forsakes God and calls in a devil to help him to whatever he may like. There is nothing of this kind in the Potterverse; there is not a single mention of devils or demons, so that is not very helpful to any attempt at definition. < Actually the word 'demon' is used several times. Lupin calls the grindylow a "water demon' in PoA. I am wondering about that, and also about the 'odd red gleam' that appears for a moment in Tom Riddle's eyes. As Steve has pointed out in the Lexicon, the Dark Creatures don't seem to have normal life-cycles. They seem to prey on fear and suffering rather than flesh and blood. They also don't fit into the Being/Beast/Spirit classifications which Magizoology uses to classify lifeforms. Many of them, though alive, seem to be less than substantial. The Hinkypunk looks like a wisp of smoke, the Boggart has no fixed physical form, and the Dementors' bodies seem weightless, swooping away into the night when Harry defeats them in OOP. So I am wondering if there is some sort of evil entity, lets call it a Whatsit, since Entity sounds so Stephen King, that tries to colonize magical species and, if it can, gradually turn them into soulless, bodiless copies of itself. The Grindylows, Hinkypunks and Dementors would be in various stages of this process. Dark Magic, then, would be any magic which makes it easier for the Whatsit to take possession of a living thing, or which cannot be performed without the aid of the Whatsit. One wonders if Salazar Slytherin was himself possessed by this Whatsit and if Voldemort is now. That would be an interesting reason for Voldemort to seek immortality. He wants to free himself but he knows that if the Whatsit stops possessing him he'll die, as Quirrell died when Voldemort stopped possessing him. Thoughts? Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 16 20:18:49 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:18:49 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91073 > > Neri: > > Can Harry steal information from LV's mind, and how would he > > know if it is genuine or a ruse? > > Carol: > > I don't think either can steal information, or ideas, from the > > other. > > Annemehr: > I believe Carol is right. Voldemort never read that the > headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix is located at Number > Twelve, Grimmauld Place, did he? Siriusly Snapey Susan: I don't think Voldy COULD read that particular info from Harry's mind, even if he could read specifics. Since Harry wasn't the Secret Keeper, it wouldn't matter if Voldy could get the info from Harry; he wouldn't be able to understand it or use it unless it came from the Secret Keeper [DD] himself. At least that's how I understand the Fidelius. In the other matter, I think you're right that Voldy can't steal specific information/thoughts from Harry's mind. But I wonder if the concern was, if Harry knew "too much", his emotions & reactions would in essence give away what it was that he knew. Siriusly Snapey Susan From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 20:28:13 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:28:13 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91074 Kneasy: Sorry, but this is just the sort of pop sociology that that gets the social sciences a bad name. A conclusion is reached first and supporting evidence sought later. My belief comes not from pop sociology of any kind, but from life experience as a former child and current parent. Kids who go to school unkempt are likely, actually certain, to have problems because of it. Any teacher will tell you that. I tell you, from firsthand knowledge, they will be made fun of, not included, and be an outsider. Period. Kneasy: Yes, he does seem to be bullied - or at least he is by today's standards. But I have a lot of problems with 'Snape's worst memory'. For a start it probably isn't his worst memory; his hatred of James et al seems to stem more from the 'prank' than from his laundry arrangements." What standards should we be using? It's true that MWPP didn't beat the hell out of Snape and leave him with broken ribs or anything, but humiliation hurts just as much. This particular memory is part of a continuum of bad memories. The prank and Snape's laundry arrangements are all about one thing: humiliation and degradation in public. Kneasy: I think Snape is on Snape's side and the fact that it is the same side as the Order is pure chance. Your thoughts obviously differ, but have a look through the Quick Quotes, there's a transcript from the end of 2000 or the beginning of 2001. JKR is surprised that Snape is so popular and states that he is not nice but allows that there may be a chance of redemption for him in book 7. Doesn't sound like a goody to me." Something we can agree on! No, Snape's not a "good guy" in the sense you mean, but he is on the right side. My point is Snape's motives are unimportant. He's fighting on the right side. Right now that's good enough. His motives are significant only as a predictor of future behavior. Would he turn against Dumbledore and the Order? We don't know what's moving Snape so we can't say. I would guess that Dumbledore treated him in a way no one else has, forcing Snape to reexamine what he'd been doing. Whatever the reason is, it seems to center on Dumbledore somehow. If we find out later that these memories are not what they so plainly seem to be, I'll have to change my hypothesis; but Snape's life course as we see it is dead on for social avoidance, misanthropy, and poor ability to deal with people. Jim Ferer From CindyJ2 at cox.net Mon Feb 16 18:36:31 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:36:31 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apparition & Fidelius References: Message-ID: <005001c3f4bb$cc373e20$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91075 >But Bellatrix is Sirius' first cousin and probably visited 12 Grimmauld Place in her childhood and early teens. (Sirius said he never saw her after he was fifteen, meaning that she must have left Hogwarts two or three years before he did, but she could have visited his home before that--or after he left home for good at sixteen.) Anyway, I think it's extremely unlikely that she wouldn't know where her uncle and aunt and her two cousins lived. So the Fidelius charm would somehow have to erase that knowledge or just make the house invisible and inaccessible to those who have not specifically been told by the Secret Keeper not only its address but that its the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix. My suspicion is that Bellatrix suspects the truth and knows exactly where the house is but just can't see it or get inside. Hi all, That's *exactly* how I see it... The fidelius charm acts as a security system. You may know where something is, but you won't be able to get inside unless the secret keeper tells you the secret. In this case, it isn't the address. It's that #12 is the HQ for the Order of the Phoenix. You have to know the complete secret... I've often wondered if 9 3/4 was protected by a fidelius charm as well. Every year the students get a letter telling them term begins Sept. 1, and that the train to Hogwards will leave at 11:00 from 9 3/4. Anyone who sees the letter can enter, but if you don't see the letter (like the Dursleys) you can't get by. Cindy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annelilucas at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 16 18:45:39 2004 From: annelilucas at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?anneli=20lucas?=) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:45:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's eyes was Re: The colour "Purple" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040216184539.6072.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91076 Meri said: That Harry wears glasses shows that despite the general lack of care given to him by the Dursleys, there was enough attention paid there for his eye problem to be diagnosed and dealt with. I know that my eye problem was caught in my pre-Kindergarten physical, so Harry clearly had at least that rudimentary medical check. Whether Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon did this only to keep the muggle authorities off their backs, or because back when Harry was five the threat of intervention by a pack of wand brandishing wizards was for more real than later in Harry's life, I leave to JKR to explain. Anneli: In the UK children are given eye tests at school, and glasses are available free from the NHS (at least they were when I was at primary school in the mid-late 80s), so the Dursleys wouldn't have had to spend any time or money on the problem. Anneli From CindyJ2 at cox.net Mon Feb 16 18:45:42 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:45:42 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparition + Floo WAS Re: Apparition & Fidelius References: <20040215194355.1584.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005801c3f4bd$14deae00$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91077 ----- I have a problem with floo and apparition. If people's houses (on the network) can be entered by anybody by floo, and people can apparate willy nilly all over the place, surely burglary would be a big problem? (And what's the point of locking doors when they can be opened by magic for that matter? - I'm sure this happens at Hogwarts, can't remember when though.) I think that you can restrict who, where, and when people can apparate. For example, remember when the Doors to Hogwarts were being taught to recognize Sirius? Perhaps you could teach your home only to recognize you and your family. Moreover, the very houses are magical, so maybe they don't *allow* people to steal from them. Remember when they were cleaning Sirius' house, and some of the stuff wouldn't budge? It seems to me you'd have magical ways of protecting your belongings from burglary. Finally, I think since this is a fantasy, we have to allow some leeway with the facts. For example, *why* is the Weasley's house dumpy, when we see DD conjure a chair out of thin air? Why don't the grownups conjure some nice furniture, or magically turn their house into a mansion? I think on some level we just have to accept small inconsistencies (limitations of our muggle minds, you see) for the sake of the fantasy. Cindy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From CindyJ2 at cox.net Mon Feb 16 19:05:49 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:05:49 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's eyes was Re: The colour "Purple" References: Message-ID: <006801c3f4bf$e449f990$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91078 Ok, so purple is a highly spiritual color, so what is it about the color green? Harry's eyes and the fact that they are green like his mother's is very important. There are other things that are green as well in the series, such as the Slytherin colors, and the get of green light from Voldie's AK spell. I mainly would like to know how the color green is relevant to Lily and Harry's eyes. I am sure this has been discussed before, but I thought I would give it a shot anyway and ask. Hi all, The other thing that's green are the snake's eyes in the COS. (The carved snake on the wall that opens. The eyes are made of green stones.) And yes, the basilisk's eyes are vunerable. Harry is only able to defeat him once Fawkes destroys the eyes for him. The snake's eyes are it's weapon--see them and die. As you know, though, the basilisk that Harry fights has yellow eyes...hmm... On another note, I don't know if it's already been discussed, but the ancient romans called a basilisk "Regulus", for little king. Cindy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 20:58:36 2004 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:58:36 -0000 Subject: What are Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91079 > Hitomi: > Quirrell and Lockhart weren't teachers, I don't care > if they got paid in that occupation. Actually, Quirrell was a fine DADA teacher. We have Hagrid and Percy's word on that. He was a bit timid of his subject and his students, but we never hear that those things made him less than a competent teacher. I'm a firm believer that he had plenty of skills in the Defense of the Dark Arts and conducted his classes competently, or we would have heard complaints from Harry and Co. ~ Constance Vigilance, Quirrell Defense League From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 21:02:41 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:02:41 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91080 > > > Neri: > > > Can Harry steal information from LV's mind, and how would he > > > know if it is genuine or a ruse? > > > > Carol: > > > I don't think either can steal information, or ideas, from the > > > other. > > > > Annemehr: > > I believe Carol is right. Voldemort never read that the > > headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix is located at Number > > Twelve, Grimmauld Place, did he? > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > I don't think Voldy COULD read that particular info from Harry's > mind, even if he could read specifics. Since Harry wasn't the Secret > Keeper, it wouldn't matter if Voldy could get the info from Harry; he > wouldn't be able to understand it or use it unless it came from the > Secret Keeper [DD] himself. At least that's how I understand the > Fidelius. > > In the other matter, I think you're right that Voldy can't steal > specific information/thoughts from Harry's mind. But I wonder if the > concern was, if Harry knew "too much", his emotions & reactions would > in essence give away what it was that he knew. Neri again: It is interesting that most people here think that LV can't get information from Harry's mind. After all, Harry himself was able to receive much more than emotions. He received detailed perceptions, both visual, sounds and touch. So do you suggest that the channel between the minds is only in one direction? From LV to Harry but not the other way around? I'd also add that there is at least one piece of canon that strongly suggests the channel is bi-directional. This is the strong urge that Harry feels, just before portkeying out of DD's office, to strike at DD. How would LV know that Harry is near DD (a very rare event) and this is the moment to strike? The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that LV got some visual of DD's face through the channel. And note that Harry is not aware of this. He is only aware of wanting to kill DD. This means that if LV gets perceptions from Harry through the channel, Harry would not know about it unless LV tries some murderous move. This raises the question: how much of Harry's emotions and perceptions have already leaked through the channel without him being aware at all? Neri From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 21:06:43 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:06:43 -0000 Subject: Twins, time turner, the same person? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91081 I've been thinking a lot about Fred and George lately. The first time we meet them, at Kings Cross Station in PS- They yell at Molly because she apparently mixed them up, but then just as "Fred" is going through the barrier, he yells that she had it right the first time. But, she didn't know the difference, she just said, "Oh, sorry George"- or something like that. I don't understand how a mother can mix up her children, even if they are identical twins. I've met twins, loads of them, and after a little while, the differences become apparent. But, Molly couldn't do that after thirteen years? I started thinking about how odd that was after re-reading OOP- The scene where Ron gets his prefect badge and Molly says "That's everyone in the family"- and then George and Fred smirk at her for forgetting them. Why do these two not seem like 'real' Weasleys? Their attitude, personalities, goals, etc. all seem different from any of the other hundred Weasley's. The one similarity appears in their treatment and opinion of the 'baddies'- they hate the ministry and lv and percy all the same. - and they seem pretty intent on writing percy off- whereas the rest of the family may be up for forgiveness. In GOF- just as they get to the World Cup, Mr. Weasley sends HRH off to collect water, the muggle way, and he and Ginny and Fred and George attempt to collect wood and light a fire. When HRH gets back, Fred and George remark that HRH "Have been ages"- and Ron says they met a few people. How much time did HRH really take in collecting the water? I can't remember now, but the reason I ask is because- just then Ludo Bagman walks by and the twins make their bet. Let's see, they bet their entire life savings that Krum would catch the snitch but that Ireland would win. Have we ever seen a quidditch game that had the same result? Ever? I haven't read Quidditch through the ages, but could someone tell me if there's any mention of a game like this one in the past? Normally a seeker would wait to catch the snitch until it would ensure a victory, but Krum didn't. His reason is irrelevant, but the twins knew it. I don't see how anyone can doubt that F&G knew what was going to happen at the game, it's just too much of a long shot. Ginny says in OOP that with the twins, "You start thinking anything's possible". Hmmm.. Anything? Like using a time turner at the world cup to see what the outcome would be, so maybe they could get a few extra galleons toward their joke shop fund? At that point no one knew that Harry would win and give them his winnings. I'm re-reading all of the books right now looking for evidence and clues about Fred and George's identities. I wonder if there are really two of them. A time Turner could allow a future and former self to interact couldn't it? I'm still forming this theory, but has anyone got any theories about what role Fred and George will play in the upcoming books? Or, what it would mean if there wasn't really a Fred and George, but just one brother? I don't know what I'm trying to say here. My head hurts. LizVega, who knows something is wrong with the twins. From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 21:07:54 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:07:54 -0000 Subject: What are Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91082 Constance Vigilance wrote: > Actually, Quirrell was a fine DADA teacher. We have Hagrid and > Percy's word on that. He was a bit timid of his subject and his > students, but we never hear that those things made him less than a > competent teacher. I'm a firm believer that he had plenty of skills > in the Defense of the Dark Arts and conducted his classes > competently, or we would have heard complaints from Harry and Co. Hitomi: I am Speedy-Reply-Girl! I'm not arguing with you, he might have had skills in DADA, I was just referring to the trio saying his classes were a bit of a joke in Book 1, and Hermione saying Harry has always done better in DADA than her, and tested higher when they actually sat the test and had a competent teacher. He first started scoring higher than her in third year, so by that logic, Hermione does not see Quirrell as a competent teacher. And even if he had skills, if he was too timid to actually *teach*, which he seemed to be, then they wouldn't have done much good. But most of this is speculation. And it really doesn't matter, considering he's dead, but those were the references I was referring to. Though your argument is more than valid. Though I still don't think Harry actually started to learn anything in DADA until his third year. Since then, however, he has caught up marvelously :-) ~ Hitomi From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 21:18:54 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:18:54 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91083 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > wrote: > > BTW, there was nothing wrong with Snape's teaching methods. He gave > > Harry useful information, warned him that he would need to resist > > the Legilmency spell, allowed him to use his wand to defend > > himself, and told him to practice and to clear his mind of all > > emotions both before each session and before he went to sleep at > > night. > > It's Harry who resisted Snape because he didn't trust him; Harry who > > refused to clear his mind or calm himself.... > > > I would submit, however, that Snape [purposely?] did nothing to > ASSIST Harry, either. Neither did he DEMONSTRATE how to block the > legilimens spell NOR did he help Harry or give him time to clear his > mind of thoughts/emotions. Snape began so quickly--and with NO real > guidance or instruction--that it frustrated the hell out of Harry. > He then did nothing to calm Harry nor help him learn how to clear his > mind or tone down his emotions. Snape HAD to know that he riles > Harry up, and yet he was unable/unwilling to set aside his own > dislike of Harry in order to truly explain what was happening and HOW > to do what he was expecting of him. > > Snape may have provided Harry w/ instruction, yes, but I don't agree > that there was nothing wrong with his teaching methods. In fact, he > could have done a MUCH better job of it, especially at the beginning. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan LizVega here: I have to agree with Susan on this one. Dumbledore himself says that it was a mistake to allow Snape to teach Harry Occlumency- he should have done it himself but was afraid of opening his mind to Harry/Voldemort. But, Snape didn't even try to go beyond their usual sparring matches- if anything he was even more sadistic- telling Harry how unspecial he is, etc. A mature adult would never treat a child the way that Snape has treated Harry and Neville, even. Harry isn't blameless, but so many of us have focused on his flaws, and this one just wasn't his fault. I'm sorry, but if Dumbledore had told Harry why he needed to study Occlumency, he probably would've made more of an effort with Snape- I still don't think it makes sense that the alternative to Dumbledore for the lessons was Snape. Why would Dumbledore want Snape, a double agent, to open up his mind to Harry/Voldemort? Perhaps that's what the pensieve was for.... all of those memories of double agenting, except for the one scene Harry just happened to see..... LizVega From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 21:27:13 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:27:13 -0000 Subject: Harry's eyes was Re: The colour "Purple" In-Reply-To: <006801c3f4bf$e449f990$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91084 Another thing that is green are Dobby's eyes. But anyway, my half-formed theory, with no real proof, is that certain physical characteristics designate certain proficiencies in one or more areas of magic. Moody's fake eye is electric blue, and, as we know, enables him to see through things. DD's eyes are light blue, and there are constant allusions to DD "seeming to see right through a person." So, maybe his eyes are especially good for Legilimens or something. I think that's why a lot of people believe Lily and Harry's eyes have something to do with an innate ability in Charms, thought we are only told Lily was exceptionally good in this area, Harry seems just slightly better than average. Maybe his eyes help with jinxes/hexes in DADA. Same with the long fingers/powerful wizard theory. Or eye color could designate character traits. Harry, Lily, and Dobby are very loving. Hermione, Ginny, and Winky all have brown eyes. Maybe that means something. Just speculation. (James eyes were hazel.) And LV's eyes being red... well, I doubt they started out that way, probably an after-effect of a self-inflicted spell, and we all know he's evil. Ok, I'm done pointlessly speculatingly about things I can't prove :-) ~ Hitomi From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 21:45:23 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:45:23 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91085 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > > > Neri: > > > > Can Harry steal information from LV's mind, and how would he > > > > know if it is genuine or a ruse? > > > > > > > Neri again: > It is interesting that most people here think that LV can't get > information from Harry's mind. After all, Harry himself was able to > receive much more than emotions. He received detailed perceptions, > both visual, sounds and touch. So do you suggest that the channel > between the minds is only in one direction? From LV to Harry but not > the other way around? > > I'd also add that there is at least one piece of canon that strongly > suggests the channel is bi-directional. This is the strong urge that > Harry feels, just before portkeying out of DD's office, to strike at > DD. How would LV know that Harry is near DD (a very rare event) and > this is the moment to strike? The only reasonable explanation I can > think of is that LV got some visual of DD's face through the channel. > And note that Harry is not aware of this. He is only aware of wanting > to kill DD. This means that if LV gets perceptions from Harry through > the channel, Harry would not know about it unless LV tries some > murderous move. This raises the question: how much of Harry's > emotions and perceptions have already leaked through the channel > without him being aware at all? > > Neri LizVega here: After reading OOP- and more importantly the chapter "The Lost Prophecy" - I have wondered what Voldemort saw that no one is aware of yet. Like Harry saw the image of the snake (himself) moving a long the corridor, he saw himself (Voldemort) looking in the mirror, he saw LV torturing one of his DE's- can't remember which one it was- Avery?- anyway, Harry had visuals, not just emotions, as some have suggested. What kind of things did LV see? It would most likely be times when Harry was most upset, or angry? Umbridge instilled lots of anger in Harry, I wonder if LV saw any of the sadistic crap she pulled at the school, and now wants to hire her as 'chief torturer- er -torturess in charge? Did LV see any part of the night when the dementors attacked Harry and Dudley? Did he see the scene when Vernon tried to chuck him out, but Petunia wouldn't allow it? Did he see any of Harry's hearing? What about the scene in the Pensieve that Harry saw in Snape's office? Did he see how upset Harry became at the idea of his father acting like Draco? Any other scenes that would be useful to LV? From Tigerstormxx at aol.com Mon Feb 16 17:06:44 2004 From: Tigerstormxx at aol.com (james320152002) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:06:44 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Attack on Lily and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91086 John wrote: > > If the Weasley twins can learn how to Apparate and can do so in > > Fidelius charmed house (the order's headquarters), why can't Lily > > and James merely Apparate to Harry's side and then Apparate out > > of the house? Or if they cannot Apparate out of the house, why not > > Apparate to the front door and then go outside and Apparate. Meri: > But could they apparate with Harry? I don't know if it is possible to > transfer your apparation abilities to someone else, even someone as > small as a baby. I always assumed that apparition was a limited > personal power, and that you couldn't just apparate with anyone hanging > on (snip). > Also, I always assumed that the cottage at Godric's Hollow was > protected by more than just the Fidelius Charm, and even if it > wasn't, we just don't yet know enough about that fateful Halloween > night to figure out what happened. I assumed Apparation was a personal power as well. And as for apparating every few days even if it was possible for Harry to apparate with them we are still unsure if things like apparation and other spells can be tracked. Also what's safer than a house protected by the Fidelius Charm? As long as you have a strong secret keeper it's impossible for you to be discovered. John: > Still we do not know if you can Apparate while holding on to > something; but something as small as an infant and two highly > capable wizards can't Apparate it? Just doesn't make sense > to me. While James was holding Voldemort off, why > didn't Lily take Harry and go? You know what I didn't think of before....maybe Lily and James were aware of what would happen. I have read some threads on Harry's scar; maybe they decided to make the sacrifice for the good of the wizarding world...maybe they knew Lord Voldemort would be vanquished that night.. "james320152002" From Tigerstormxx at aol.com Mon Feb 16 10:07:11 2004 From: Tigerstormxx at aol.com (james320152002) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 10:07:11 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91087 Sue: > One of my favorite images from OotP is Harry leading the > Dursleys out of the train station. In the previous books > Harry was usually following behind misserably, but this > time he takes the lead. I love that, IMHO Harry will be > taking the lead in many things in the next 2 books. Harry is still just a kid. It would be foolish for Dumbledore or any of the order to let Harry lead anything. "james320152002" (Elf note to James: Could you please contact the Elves? HPforGrownups-owner@ yahoogroups.com. Thanks!) From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon Feb 16 17:19:49 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:19:49 -0000 Subject: The Room of Requirement--a plot hole? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91088 Pip!Squeak: > I wondered that too. But I think the explanation is that the Room of > Requirement *creates* nothing. It brings things from other places. > So it's still evidence. The Room of Requirement was simply helpfully > collecting it for the Inquisitorial Squad. Ah! Now that makes sense. And it does make more sense than the holodeck-like approach that I was taking. Thanks! "antoshachekhonte" From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Feb 16 22:11:13 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:11:13 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91089 Susan: > > I would submit, however, that Snape [purposely?] did nothing to ASSIST Harry, either. Neither did he DEMONSTRATE how to block the legilimens spell NOR did he help Harry or give him time to clear his mind of thoughts/emotions. << *How* would Snape demonstrate how to block legilimens? The only mind Harry could see inside of was Voldemort's, so how would Snape show Harry what he was doing? I don't think you can learn occlumency by demonstration anyway-- it's probably more like learning to ride a bicycle. You just have to keep trying, and falling, till you get it. Harry learned to fight off the Dementors the same way. And Lupin wasn't much more encouraging than Snape when you think about it; he kept telling Harry it was much too difficult for a third year. Maybe you're thinking Harry should have been led through some mental discipline exercises, but Lupin, whose technique as a teacher is unassailable, doesn't take that approach to Harry's anti-Dementor lessons either. And to the extent that forming a pure intent is basic to all kinds of magic, shouldn't a fifth year know how to do that anyway? > LizVega: >> I have to agree with Susan on this one. Dumbledore himself says that it was a mistake to allow Snape to teach Harry Occlumency- he should have done it himself but was afraid of opening his mind to Harry/Voldemort.<< That doesn't mean Snape's technique was faulty--only that Dumbledore should have taught Harry *before* Voldemort returned to power. Then access to Dumbledore's mind wouldn't have been an issue. LizVega: >I'm sorry, but if Dumbledore had told Harry why he needed to study Occlumency, he probably would've made more of an effort with Snape-< Harry *was* told by Snape: "[Voldemort] has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return." "And he might try and make me do things? asked Harry. "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. Now of course, Snape's coolness and unconcern are necessary, since he has to keep his own thoughts blocked. But Harry was too busy feeling sorry for himself to grasp the significance of what he was being told. LizVega: > I still don't think it makes sense that the alternative to > Dumbledore for the lessons was Snape. Why would >Dumbledore want Snape, a double agent, to open up his mind >to Harry/Voldemort? Snape can keep Voldemort from accessing his mind, or he couldn't be a double agent in the first place. The only way it can work is if Voldemort knows that Snape has Dumbledore's confidence, but believes that Snape is really working for him, and passing disinformation to the Order. "Yes, Potter, that is my job." Pippin From CindyJ2 at cox.net Mon Feb 16 19:09:35 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:09:35 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Understanding Snape References: Message-ID: <006e01c3f4c0$6b012080$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91090 Animagikat: > His intentions are not pure. Possibly, he is not fighting for the > same end as the other members of the Order: the ultimate downfall > of Voldemort. Vengence is his goal(IMO). That may be... DD says that he turned spy at "great personal risk". If Voldemort is victorious, Snape will of course be killed. Maybe he's like Pettigrew, but he realized DD was the most powerful. I think, though, that this may simplify things. There is obviously some big reason DD trusts him. I guess this could play out to be a case of misplaced trust, but I hope not. I do hope, though, that we find out in book 6 the reason. I don't want to wait another year or two. Cindy From pfsch at gmx.de Mon Feb 16 20:10:50 2004 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:10:50 +0100 Subject: Silver Lupin In-Reply-To: <1076901508.4761.51416.m14@yahoogroups.com> References: <1076901508.4761.51416.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <1542887071.20040216211050@gmx.de> No: HPFGUIDX 91091 Hi! From: "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" I believe that JKR answered that silver is not especially dangerous to Potterverse werewolves in Harry's first dinner at 12 Grimmauld Place. [...] Lupin, who had been about to take a sip of wine, lowered his goblet slowly, looking wary." JKR is telling us that Lupin has no problem drinking from a silver goblet; holding it doesn't burn his hand as in so many fanfics; it doesn't do special magical harm to him. Anatol: I don't think that proves anything. If I'm not mistaken you have to shoot the silver through the werewolve's heart (or another part of his body), the mere touch would not harm him. Though some fictions might have the mere touch harm him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf), *that* bit might have been altered in the Potterverse. Bye Anatol (http://www.setrok.de) From CindyJ2 at cox.net Mon Feb 16 19:19:59 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:19:59 -0600 Subject: Understanding Snape References: Message-ID: <008b01c3f4c1$de5c4400$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91092 If the memory were subjective, Harry would be limited to Snape's POV, reading the exam sheet and Severus's answers. As it is, he can move about inside the memory, just as if he were present (but invisible). That's how I see it, but I wonder if Snape could "flesh out" a memory? (I don't know if I can explain it...) In other words, once he learns that Lupin is a werewolf go back and say "ohhh, they must have been talking about *that* when he called him Mooney..." From that time forward, his original memory now includes that tidbit, which wasn't there to begin with. Or conversely, maybe he's full of self-pity, and later assumes the trio was talking about him. There he was, being studious and minding his own business, and the bullies come up and start plotting against him out of nowhere... So in his memory he's portrayed as a bigger victim than in real life. I guess what I wonder is how much fact do we give memories in a pensive? I think we give them as much credence as we do the owner; DD's memories are fact, whereas maybe Snape's are slanted a bit in his favor. Cindy From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Mon Feb 16 22:33:18 2004 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:33:18 -0000 Subject: "Potter for President" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91094 This is not an important question, but I was wondering about this. In Book 1, chapter 11, for Harry's first Quidditch match, Ron and Hermione make a banner saying "Potter for President!" President of what? What office in the school system or government is "president"? It's in the UK version and not just the American version. Bobby From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 16 22:44:47 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:44:47 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Neri again: > It is interesting that most people here think that LV can't get > information from Harry's mind. After all, Harry himself was able > to receive much more than emotions. He received detailed > perceptions, both visual, sounds and touch. So do you suggest that > the channel between the minds is only in one direction? From LV to > Harry but not the other way around? > > I'd also add that there is at least one piece of canon that > strongly suggests the channel is bi-directional. This is the > strong urge that Harry feels, just before portkeying out of DD's > office, to strike at DD. How would LV know that Harry is near DD > (a very rare event) and this is the moment to strike? The only > reasonable explanation I can think of is that LV got some visual > of DD's face through the channel. > Siriusly Snapey Susan: This is an EXCELLENT point, Neri. I definitely think it's a bi- directional channel. I remember DD telling Harry that Voldy didn't USED to know that Harry was feeling his [Voldy's] strong emotions along with him, but that after the attack on Arthur, he DID realize that Harry was "there" and that he guessed, correctly, that the process worked in reverse. So, yes, I think you're right about that. I guess that leaves the question of what it is Voldy "sees" or senses when he gets into Harry's mind. I thought it was mostly sensate, rather than actual thoughts or hearing dialogue or anything like that, but I have to confess that I don't know that for sure. Your question of how Voldy knew that DD was *present* and so that it was the right time to hit Harry w/ a surge of "attack" or "hate" or whatever it was, is a good one. Is there any way it was from the emotions Harry himself was experiencing at the time, or was it more likely a visual? What do others think?? Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 16 22:51:49 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:51:49 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91096 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Susan: > > > I would submit, however, that Snape [purposely?] did nothing > to ASSIST Harry, either. Neither did he DEMONSTRATE how to > block the legilimens spell NOR did he help Harry or give him > time to clear his mind of thoughts/emotions. << > > *How* would Snape demonstrate how to block legilimens? The > only mind Harry could see inside of was Voldemort's, so how > would Snape show Harry what he was doing? I don't think you > can learn occlumency by demonstration anyway-- it's probably > more like learning to ride a bicycle. You just have to keep > trying, and falling, till you get it. Harry learned to fight off > the Dementors the same way. And Lupin wasn't much more > encouraging than Snape when you think about it; he kept telling > Harry it was much too difficult for a third year. > > > Maybe you're thinking Harry should have been led through some > mental discipline exercises, but Lupin, whose technique as a > teacher is unassailable, doesn't take that approach to Harry's > anti-Dementor lessons either. And to the extent that forming a > pure intent is basic to all kinds of magic, shouldn't a fifth year > know how to do that anyway? > Siriusly Snapey Susan: I'm going to ponder this more, Pippin, but for now I really think I'm not going to "give" on this part of the argument at least. What Snape could have done is DESCRIBE the process more fully and explain what KINDS of blocking techniques or spells Harry could try. Snape doesn't have to understand what's IN Harry's memory to describe how the process works and give him some additional information on blocking. And, whether Lupin did things similarly or differently, I don't think is justification for this particular situation. Why COULDN'T Snape have helped Harry settle down or have waited for him to calm down? ONCE Harry had had some practice, I could see Snape not cutting him some slack because Voldy wouldn't cut him some slack. But I'm talking about his FIRST lesson here. I believe the reason Snape "couldn't" wait for Harry or help Harry is that he doesn't WANT to help Harry. He doesn't really give a rat's ass whether Harry is successful...at least not the way DD cares. I will totally agree with you about what would have been best, though: DD's teaching Harry Occlumency himself, BEFORE things got this far. Respectfully, Siriusly Snapey Susan From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Mon Feb 16 23:30:34 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:30:34 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Understanding Snape References: <008b01c3f4c1$de5c4400$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: <001501c3f4e4$e0275220$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 91097 {Cindy} Or conversely, maybe he's full of self-pity, and later assumes the trio was talking about him. There he was, being studious and minding his own business, and the bullies come up and start plotting against him out of nowhere... So in his memory he's portrayed as a bigger victim than in real life. I guess what I wonder is how much fact do we give memories in a pensive? I think we give them as much credence as we do the owner; DD's memories are fact, whereas maybe Snape's are slanted a bit in his favor. {Anne} An interesting idea there, that the memories shift according to knowledge that's gained later on, and may even possibly be 'altered' by the person's own view and beliefs... However, to be fair, although in this scenario, we can easily assign Snape a 'selfish' streak that will alter his veiwpoint of those memories, I have to object to the idea that only Snape would be doing such a thing. To be fair, if you want to use this scenario, you'd have to allow that any memory in the pensieve is subject to subconsious (as well as concious) tinkering that is also fueled by that person's own take on things. And if you do so, then Dumbledore's memories are just as 'suspect' (though not for the same reasons).... Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying for an Evil!Dumbly argument here, just wanting to point out that Dumbledrore will also have things within his own psyche that will color what he saw in the trails--for good or ill--and therefore, according to this theory will still give some sort of a slant to the memory. It may not be as severe--Dumble has a better grip on life in general--but he will still affect his own memories of what happened, if for no other reasoin than because that's what humans DO with thier memories. Stating that DD's are irrefutable fact whereas Snape's are 'slanted a bit in his favor' attributes DD with a godlike control over every aspect of his mind--and he himself has made it clear in the last book that even he makes mistakes (In other words, he is human and is just as prone as the next 'mere mortal' to do something such as...say....unintentionally alter the penseive memories a little according to his own experiences and beliefs....). Personally, since the pensieve is a magical device, I hold to the theory that although you enter the scene through a person's memories, the scene that unfolds is actaully drawn from another source---perhaps some sort of limited gateway or bobble on the mobius strip of time--that gives the viewer a more detached, but wider, view of the original situation, which is why Harry CAN range so far from Snape's position, or get an almost 360 degree view of the Wizenmagot--after all, as Carol and others have pointed out--the feelings of the person the memory is from is not shared with the veiwer--just the events. Otherwise, if Harry were experience the memories from the viewpoint of the memories holders (IE was inside thier head--which I imagine you would have to be to see the 'altered' version of events), he would have most likely exhibited Dumbledore's calm demeanor in that memory, and then shared Snape's self-absorbtion, then anger, then embarassment and rage in his memories. Harry's feelings, however, remained his and his alone in both instances--unlike when he's 'sharing' with Voldemort, when he feels whatever it is ol Moldy Voldy is feeling at that moment... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 00:04:41 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:04:41 -0000 Subject: Twins, time turner, the same person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91098 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > I've been thinking a lot about Fred and George lately. snipping the majority of the post > I'm re-reading all of the books right now looking for evidence and > clues about Fred and George's identities. I wonder if there are > really two of them. A time Turner could allow a future and former > self to interact couldn't it? I'm still forming this theory, but has > anyone got any theories about what role Fred and George will play in > the upcoming books? Or, what it would mean if there wasn't really a > Fred and George, but just one brother? I don't know what I'm trying > to say here. My head hurts. > > LizVega, who knows something is wrong with the twins. Just a couple of points. 1: Time turners are highly regulated by the MoM. Professor McGonagal had to go through quite a bit of paperwork for Hermione to use one for her classes, and even then she was sworn to secrecy. I doubt very much that the tiwns could be using an unregulated time turner without ANYONE knowing anything about it. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing left lying around in a junk shop, does it? In fact, if I remember correctly, there is (or was) a whole cabinet full of them in the DoM. This is probably where all time turners come from. And for Fred and George to use it so recklessly (ie: to win a bet) is almost out of character. They may be trouble makers, but don't seem to be into anything illegal. 2. It is very easy for a parent to mix up the names of their children, even after more than thirteen years. I have been called by my sister's name for a good bit of my life and we are not identical. It happens sometimes, especially in a family of that size. 3. I don't know how Molly could give birth to one baby and then all of a sudden have two identical kids there without any rational explanation. Even Arthur isn't henpecked enough not to notice that sort of thing, and Bill and Charlie would at least have some memory of the infant twins. Meri (who is sure something is up with the twins, but that illegal time travel is not involved, and that it is probably something more to the tune of comic relief) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 00:32:41 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:32:41 -0000 Subject: Twins, time turner, the same person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91099 Lizvega wrote: > I've been thinking a lot about Fred and George lately. The first > time we meet them, at Kings Cross Station in PS- They yell at Molly > because she apparently mixed them up, but then just as "Fred" is > going through the barrier, he yells that she had it right the first > time. But, she didn't know the difference, she just said, "Oh, sorry > George"- or something like that. I don't understand how a mother can > mix up her children, even if they are identical twins. I've met > twins, loads of them, and after a little while, the differences > become apparent. But, Molly couldn't do that after thirteen years? I > started thinking about how odd that was after re-reading OOP- The > scene where Ron gets his prefect badge and Molly says "That's > everyone in the family"- and then George and Fred smirk at her for > forgetting them. Why do these two not seem like 'real' Weasleys? > Their attitude, personalities, goals, etc. all seem different from > any of the other hundred Weasley's. The one similarity appears in > their treatment and opinion of the 'baddies'- they hate the ministry > and lv and percy all the same. - and they seem pretty intent on > writing percy off- whereas the rest of the family may be up for > forgiveness. > > I'm re-reading all of the books right now looking for evidence and > clues about Fred and George's identities. I wonder if there are > really two of them. A time Turner could allow a future and former > self to interact couldn't it? I'm still forming this theory, but has > anyone got any theories about what role Fred and George will play in > the upcoming books? Or, what it would mean if there wasn't really a > Fred and George, but just one brother? I don't know what I'm trying > to say here. My head hurts. > Neri now: Hello Lizvega, I liked that last suggestion for its creativeness. But as the self-appointed time-travel expert around here (see the "time travel is dangerous" thread several months ago), trying to work it out makes my head hurt too. If our single twin is jumping to the past every one hour or every one day for at least five years (the time we as readers know him/them), then he is living double-time and should get older biologically at a double rate. That is, not from 13 to 18 years but from 13 to 23 years. And that's even before we start considering what the future twin knows because he comes from an hour/day in the future. BTW, Hermione also got older biologically because of her intensive time traveling in PoA. But in her case it wasn't excessive. If we assume that she did it for 8 hrs per day for about 9 months, then she only got older by additional 3 months. If, however, you sometime think Hermione acts a bit mature for her age group, you are not wrong. Back to our twin/s, if we assume the twin travels back in time for a year, say, or even more, then there should be a detectable difference in the biological age of the future twin and the past twin. And the future twin would know what is going to happen for a whole year in advance. This will make the explanation of the events even more difficult. Regarding the family relation of the twins, I remember Harry thinking (sometime before the DoM battle) that Ginny's family resemblance to the twins when she gets stubborn is striking. Hey, here is an idea: if you add Ginny to this time-travel ploy, it will explain the biological age difference. But how would you explain the sex change, and why is there only one Ginny and two of the twins??? Nope, I think I'm going to quit this while I still have my wits around me. But it was fun while it lasted. Thanks! Neri From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 00:47:49 2004 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:47:49 -0000 Subject: UK slang site Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91100 I was reading a post by justCarol67, and she said, "Carol, who has a completely unrelated question: What the heck does Tonks mean by "Wotcher"?" I found a UK site that list hundreds of "slang" words for us Americans that keep getting lost. It is: http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/w.htm And as far as "wotcher" is concerned, it says "wotcha! Exclam. A greeting. A shortening of what cheer! Also spelt wotcher. [Mainly London use]" Hope this helps; Fred From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 00:49:36 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:49:36 -0000 Subject: "Potter for President" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" wrote: > This is not an important question, but I was wondering about this. > In Book 1, chapter 11, for Harry's first Quidditch match, Ron and > Hermione make a banner saying "Potter for President!" President of > what? What office in the school system or government > is "president"? It's in the UK version and not just the American > version. > > Bobby For some reason, and I never understood this, but for some reason "_________ for President" is something seen on signs at baseball games quite frequently in the US. As a Boston native I have seen signs with "Pedro for President" (refering to Pedro Martinez, a Red Sox starting pitcher). I don't know where the tradition comes from, but I think that it is just a sign of support for a star player. Meri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 01:17:50 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:17:50 -0000 Subject: Apparating with Friends (was: Vold's Attack - Lily & James) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "james320152002" wrote: > > John: > > Still we do not know if you can Apparate while holding on to > > something; but something as small as an infant and two highly > > capable wizards can't Apparate it? Just doesn't make sense > > to me. While James was holding Voldemort off, why > > didn't Lily take Harry and go? > James...: > > You know what I didn't think of before....maybe Lily and James were > aware of what would happen. I have read some threads on Harry's scar; > maybe they decided to make the sacrifice for the good of the > wizarding world...maybe they knew Lord Voldemort would be vanquished > that night.. > > "james320152002" bboy_mn: Here are my speculative thoughts on Apparation- First, you can apparate with anything you can possess, but the definition of 'possession' is sometimes grey. Example: if I am sitting in a chair and apparate, the chair stays behind. Even though I am in intimate contact with it, I don't possess it; I go, it stays. Now, if I pick the chair up off the floor and hold it, it will most likely apparate with me, just as my clothes, my book bag, the contents of my pockets, and my grocery bags would logically travel with me. But when you apparate with a person, it gets very tricky. To some extent your ability to apparate and your apparation destination are controlled by magical intent. Reasonably, it take a clear focused mind, and a clear idea or mental picture of your destination. What happens if you pick up a magical toddler and try to apparate, and right at the moment of apparation, the toddler is distracted by something, and the toddlers intent conflicts with the intent of the adult holding the child and trying to apparate? You want to go to the grocery store, just as you try to apparate with the child, the child decides it want to be across the room playing with a shiny red ball. I predict that that could be a very dangerous situation. You could end up apparating to the store, leaving your ARMS and your CHILD behind. That would certainly be messy. So, I speculate that apparating while attempting to possess another person (not in the Voldemort sense of possession, but in the sense of holding a chair) you run the great risk of conflicting magical intent, and that represents a great danger to both persons. True, it's just speculation, but seems to be reasonable and likely speculation. Just a thought. bboy_mn From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 01:29:08 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:29:08 -0000 Subject: Twins, time turner, the same person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > > Just a couple of points. > 1: Time turners are highly regulated by the MoM. Professor McGonagal > had to go through quite a bit of paperwork for Hermione to use one > for her classes, and even then she was sworn to secrecy. I doubt > very much that the tiwns could be using an unregulated time turner > without ANYONE knowing anything about it. It doesn't seem like the > kind of thing left lying around in a junk shop, does it? In fact, if > I remember correctly, there is (or was) a whole cabinet full of them > in the DoM. This is probably where all time turners come from. And > for Fred and George to use it so recklessly (ie: to win a bet) is > almost out of character. They may be trouble makers, but don't seem > to be into anything illegal. SNIP LizVega now: Illegal? Fred and George? How about flying the car to pick up Harry in COS? How about the marauders map that they STOLE from Filch's office? How about buying something disgusting, and illegal, from Mundungus Fletcher? (I can't remember what it was, but I think Molly would've been upset by it.)Or, how about in OOP when they shoved Montague? into the vanishing cabinet? And, never told anyone where he was. Or all of the mayhem they did 'for dumbledore' before they left. I think that, in the current WW, there's a vast difference between what is RIGHT, morally so to speak, and what is legal. The ministry traded with Willy what's-his-name to get info. about the DA. Is that right? No, but it was legal. > 2. It is very easy for a parent to mix up the names of their > children, even after more than thirteen years. I have been called by > my sister's name for a good bit of my life and we are not identical. > It happens sometimes, especially in a family of that size. SNIP LizVega now: I understand what you're saying about being called by a siblings name. I was called everything from my sister, brother, to the family dog! But, the instance that I referred to is not the same as 'accidentally' being called by a different name. Molly calls, the one she assumes to be Fred, Fred. She apologizes when they tell her she was wrong, but after that, when 'fred' goes through the barrier, and tells her he was only joking...she still doesn't know the difference. If my mum was looking at me and my sister, she might call us by the wrong name, but if she was looking at us while she said it, she would know she made a mistake. Molly didn't know the difference. And, what did George say to her?, "And you call yourself our mother?" How odd that he says that! > 3. I don't know how Molly could give birth to one baby and then all > of a sudden have two identical kids there without any rational > explanation. Even Arthur isn't henpecked enough not to notice that > sort of thing, and Bill and Charlie would at least have some memory > of the infant twins. SNIP LizVega now: I'm not saying that the Weasley's aren't aware of it. If my theory has even a drop of truth to it, then Arthur and Molly would have to know about it. If there is something different about the twins, though, it might explain why Molly forgets about them, and seems more strict with them than the other children. I don't even necessarily believe that they are one person, but I definitely think they're using a time turner. And, their father works for the ministy, as does their brother, and Harry and the others proved that it really doesn't take more than a smile to get into the dept. of mysteries. It's not that unlikely that the twins could have knicked one. > Meri (who is sure something is up with the twins, but that illegal > time travel is not involved, and that it is probably something more > to the tune of comic relief) From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Tue Feb 17 01:51:56 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:51:56 -0000 Subject: Twins, time turner, the same person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91104 LizVega wrote: > I'm re-reading all of the books right now looking for evidence and > clues about Fred and George's identities. I wonder if there are > really two of them. A time Turner could allow a future and former > self to interact couldn't it? I'm still forming this theory, but has > anyone got any theories about what role Fred and George will play in > the upcoming books? Or, what it would mean if there wasn't really a > Fred and George, but just one brother? I don't know what I'm trying > to say here. My head hurts. > Sawsan here: I have wondered about the twins a lot as well. I noticed at the beginning of OotP that they apperated every few feet to "save time" and "time is galleons." I wonder why they were always worried about time. When I reread GoF, I also wondered how they won the bet with Ludo Bagman, and it was never explained, as I remember. They are pretty mysterious, and their creations seem to be very advanced. I am interested to know what their secrets are as well. As for their mother never being able to tell them apart, that also got to me. My father in law is an identical twin, and it did not take me too long to tell his brother and him apart. They seem to function only together, in fact I don't remember a scene that had only one twin in it. They are usually never too far apart. Sawsan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 17 01:57:02 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:57:02 -0000 Subject: "Potter for President" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91105 Bobby wrote: > > This is not an important question, but I was wondering about > this. In Book 1, chapter 11, for Harry's first Quidditch match, > > Ron and Hermione make a banner saying "Potter for President!" > > President of what? What office in the school system or > > government is "president"? It's in the UK version and not just > > the American version. > > Meri wrote: > For some reason, and I never understood this, but for some > reason "_________ for President" is something seen on signs at > baseball games quite frequently in the US. As a Boston native I > have seen signs with "Pedro for President" (refering to Pedro > Martinez, a Red Sox starting pitcher). I don't know where the > tradition comes from, but I think that it is just a sign of > support for a star player. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Right. And in the *U.S.* it makes sense, since we have a president. But I think the question is, in the U.K., wouldn't one expect a "Potter for P.M." sign? Siriusly Snapey Susan From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 17 02:14:36 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:14:36 -0000 Subject: Twins, time turner, the same person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91106 LizVega: Molly calls, the one she assumes to be Fred, Fred. She apologizes when they tell her she was wrong, but after that, when 'fred' goes through the barrier, and tells her he was only joking...she still doesn't know the difference. If my mum was looking at me and my sister, she might call us by the wrong name, but if she was looking at us while she said it, she would know she made a mistake. Molly didn't know the difference. And, what did George say to her?, "And you call yourself our mother?" How odd that he says that! Bookworm: Reading the scene, I have always chalked Molly's reaction up to being distracted with trying to get everyone on the train, and also ignoring just another joke from the twins. But put together with Molly's comment when Ron got his prefect's badge....hmmm... You are right ? how odd. Let's see, we have the strange comments about the twins, the big gap in ages between Charlie and Percy, the unspecified relationship to the Blacks along with the comment that all pure-blood families are related... What other Weasley mysteries have I missed? Ravenclaw Bookworm From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Tue Feb 17 02:34:48 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:34:48 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91107 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > > LizVega here: > > After reading OOP- and more importantly the chapter "The Lost > Prophecy" - I have wondered what Voldemort saw that no one is aware > of yet. Like Harry saw the image of the snake (himself) moving a > long the corridor, he saw himself (Voldemort) looking in the mirror, > he saw LV torturing one of his DE's- can't remember which one it was- > Avery?- anyway, Harry had visuals, not just emotions, as some have > suggested. What kind of things did LV see? It would most likely be > times when Harry was most upset, or angry? Umbridge instilled lots > of anger in Harry, I wonder if LV saw any of the sadistic crap she > pulled at the school, and now wants to hire her as 'chief torturer- > er -torturess in charge? > > Did LV see any part of the night when the dementors attacked Harry > and Dudley? Did he see the scene when Vernon tried to chuck him out, > but Petunia wouldn't allow it? Did he see any of Harry's hearing? > What about the scene in the Pensieve that Harry saw in Snape's > office? Did he see how upset Harry became at the idea of his father > acting like Draco? > > Any other scenes that would be useful to LV? I don't have the section to quote, but it came from Dumbledore...the theory is that LV didn't realize Harry's connection to his mind until Mr. Weasley's attack. Therefore, it would only be the events after that that LV might be privy to. For example, when they were taking the portkey, this appeared to be LV testing how far he could go into Harry's mind. He appears to be more interested in taking control of Harry for his own ends than reading his thoughts - both there and at the fountain. Perhaps that defines the limits of where he can go in Harry's mind. I'm sure we'll hear more about this in book 6 because it won't go away. In fact, my opinion is that this will become the way for Harry to defeat him. If LV was forced to endure Harry's emotional powers he detests, is that the opposite of the AK curse that will finish LV? I find it hard to believe that Harry will end up having to defeat LV with an unforgivable curse. Kristen From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 02:37:14 2004 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:37:14 -0000 Subject: What are Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91108 Potioncat asked: Just about any of the magic the students are being taught could be used for good or evil. So, what are Dark Arts? Does anyone have a good feel for this? Does anyone have a canon reference about this? Tom: I don't have a lot of time to respond to this in depth, so I'm going to cheat and send along some links (with some decent threads that follow) to older discussions in which this is hashed out with some additional attention to detail. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52468 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52478 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53565 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82138 I wouldn't necessarily say that I have a *good* feel for it all, but maybe just a regular old normal feel, or at least a position on a feel for it. ;-) -Tom From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 02:58:17 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:58:17 -0000 Subject: What are Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91109 Potioncat:" Just about any of the magic the students are being taught could be used for good or evil. So, what are Dark Arts? Does anyone have a good feel for this? Does anyone have a canon reference about this?" There's no canon on a definition that I know of. The idea of the Dark Arts (or Black Magic) has been explored in genre literature before, based on the Laws of Magic. I like to turn to the late Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy series (a great read, and 95% of Potter fans will like it). In that magical world, "Black Magic is a matter of symbolism and intent." By that definition, the state of mind of the caster is all- important. In Garrett's world, practicing Black Magic always destroys the practitioner and turns him or her to evil. The use of symbols of death and evil ? a Hand of Glory, for instance ? turns magic to evil ends. But none of that is HP canon. I think it is legitimate to take ideas from other literature and see how they fit with what we see in the Potterverse. I think it's good enough for a working hypothesis until we learn more from JKR canon. As far as the Marauder's Map goes, I think Snape was full of it himself when he called it "full of Dark magic." Jim Ferer From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Tue Feb 17 03:23:57 2004 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 03:23:57 -0000 Subject: "Potter for President" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91110 > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > Right. And in the *U.S.* it makes sense, since we have a > president. But I think the question is, in the U.K., wouldn't one > expect a "Potter for P.M." sign? Yes. What in the British school system or government or society would make the students use the word "president"? Bobby From smaragdina5 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 03:30:42 2004 From: smaragdina5 at yahoo.com (smaragdina5) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 03:30:42 -0000 Subject: Twins, time turner, the same person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > I've been thinking a lot about Fred and George lately. >Let's see, they bet their > entire life savings that Krum would catch the snitch but that > Ireland would win. >Ginny says in OOP that with the twins, "You > start thinking anything's possible". Hmmm.. Anything? Like using a > time turner at the world cup to see what the outcome would be, Galadriel Waters (I think- I read this at a bookstore without getting the book) thinks they did use a time turner for the bet. > I'm re-reading all of the books right now looking for evidence and > clues about Fred and George's identities. I wonder if there are > really two of them. A time Turner could allow a future and former > self to interact couldn't it? Now THIS is an intriguing thought! Well, assuming Mrs. Weasley knows if she had two babies... Funny, now I'm remembering little things like... in GOF, knowing who you're taking to the Yule Ball and then being reminded that you hadn't asked her yet... I knew of some twins who had a single job cleaning rooms, and would take turns, because their boss didn't know there were two of them... Betta smaragdina From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 03:55:42 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 03:55:42 -0000 Subject: Twins, time turner, the same person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" > wrote: > > > > Just a couple of points. > > 1: Time turners are highly regulated by the MoM. Professor > McGonagal > > had to go through quite a bit of paperwork for Hermione to use one > > for her classes, and even then she was sworn to secrecy. I doubt > > very much that the tiwns could be using an unregulated time turner > > without ANYONE knowing anything about it. It doesn't seem like the > > kind of thing left lying around in a junk shop, does it? In fact, > if > > I remember correctly, there is (or was) a whole cabinet full of > them > > in the DoM. This is probably where all time turners come from. And > > for Fred and George to use it so recklessly (ie: to win a bet) is > > almost out of character. They may be trouble makers, but don't > seem > > to be into anything illegal. > > SNIP > > LizVega now: > > Illegal? Fred and George? How about flying the car to pick up Harry > in COS? How about the marauders map that they STOLE from Filch's > office? How about buying something disgusting, and illegal, from > Mundungus Fletcher? (I can't remember what it was, but I think Molly > would've been upset by it.)Or, how about in OOP when they shoved > Montague? into the vanishing cabinet? And, never told anyone where > he was. Or all of the mayhem they did 'for dumbledore' before they > left. I think that, in the current WW, there's a vast difference > between what is RIGHT, morally so to speak, and what is legal. The > ministry traded with Willy what's-his-name to get info. about the > DA. Is that right? No, but it was legal. Meri again: First off, you have a point. F&G have always been rule benders and breakers, but I personally see a distinction between raising a little hell at school and breaking a federal law, or whatever it is that time traveling without permission will get you in the WW. And as to the differences between what is right and what is moral in the WW, deals like Willy Widershins (information for immunity) are made in the real world as well. I'm not talking about the morality or the legality of the twins other actions. I just think that something that is as regulated as time travel (which we know is regulated because of McGonagal having to go through paperwork and get special permission for Hermione to use one for lessons) would be a little harder for F&G to get at, as opposed to, say, Mungdungus' black market deals. > > > 2. It is very easy for a parent to mix up the names of their > > children, even after more than thirteen years. I have been called > by > > my sister's name for a good bit of my life and we are not > identical. > > It happens sometimes, especially in a family of that size. > > SNIP > > LizVega now: > > I understand what you're saying about being called by a siblings > name. I was called everything from my sister, brother, to the family > dog! But, the instance that I referred to is not the same > as 'accidentally' being called by a different name. Molly calls, the > one she assumes to be Fred, Fred. She apologizes when they tell her > she was wrong, but after that, when 'fred' goes through the barrier, > and tells her he was only joking...she still doesn't know the > difference. If my mum was looking at me and my sister, she might > call us by the wrong name, but if she was looking at us while she > said it, she would know she made a mistake. Molly didn't know the > difference. And, what did George say to her?, "And you call yourself > our mother?" How odd that he says that! > > Meri again: I always read that scene as Molly being very distracted. After all, she had four kids, including first year Ron to get on the train, had to keep ten year old Ginny in sight and not attract the attention of a station full of muggles. She had enough on her mind, and I can see how she would make a mistake in this situation. I always thought these lines were to emphasize how alike the twins are, identical to the last freckle, they are. And as to his "call yourself our mother" line, that's pretty much in line with F&G's sarcastic sense of humor. After all, they walk down the halls at Hogwarts announcing Harry as a "seriously evil wizard" and "heir of Slytherin." That line is totally in character and, IMHO, not odd at all. > 3. I don't know how Molly could give birth to one baby and then all > > of a sudden have two identical kids there without any rational > > explanation. Even Arthur isn't henpecked enough not to notice that > > sort of thing, and Bill and Charlie would at least have some > memory > > of the infant twins. > > SNIP > > LizVega now: > > I'm not saying that the Weasley's aren't aware of it. If my theory > has even a drop of truth to it, then Arthur and Molly would have to > know about it. If there is something different about the twins, > though, it might explain why Molly forgets about them, and seems > more strict with them than the other children. Meri here: Molly is stricter with the twins because, IMHO, they needed to be disciplined more than her other kids. She treats them differently because, personality wise, they ARE different from the other five. Where Bill and Percy were good and responsible students (as evidenced by their OWLs and Head Boy-ship) and Charlie was focused and driven to a respecatable career, F&G were slackers and troublemakers. They had to be dealt with differently. They are also middle children, and middle children are frequently pushed aside for their older, more accomplished sibs and their younger, more needy sibs. It happens. Besides, Arthur seems not to know, or to really want to know what his middle sons are up to for the most part. And I can't see Molly being so strict with them if they were creating mischief for good reason. I don't even > necessarily believe that they are one person, but I definitely think > they're using a time turner. And, their father works for the > ministy, as does their brother Meri again: I don't see rule-worshipping Percy provinding an illegal time turner to the twins, especially before his Crouch-induced defection from the Weasly fold. And Arthur is so low at the MoM that his office is smaller than a broom cupboard and his name isn't spelled right in the presses. I don't see him getting access, either. Harry and the others proved that > it really doesn't take more than a smile to get into the dept. of > mysteries. It's not that unlikely that the twins could have knicked > one. Meri finally finishing up: Harry and the others showed us that it doesn't take more than a smile to get in to the DoM in the middle of the night when the way has been cleared by a horde of Death Eaters lying in wait for you to arrive into their clutches. I would assume that any guards that normally staff the DoM were taken care of long before Harry and the DA even climbed on the thestrals. After all, Sturgis Podmore got caught breaking in, and he was a fully qualified wizard. Meri (who apologizes for her longwindedness and promises to eat her words if she be proven wrong) From gandalph3 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 17 00:50:02 2004 From: gandalph3 at hotmail.com (gandalph_3) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:50:02 -0000 Subject: Hedwig & 12 Grimmauld Place Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91113 I was wondering if anyone had any ideas how Hedwig was able to find 12 Grimmauld Place if it was hidden from Harry til he got there. Is the protection only against humans? Gandalf From CindyJ2 at cox.net Tue Feb 17 02:33:16 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:33:16 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Understanding Snape References: <008b01c3f4c1$de5c4400$536a6744@DEAN> <001501c3f4e4$e0275220$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: <006c01c3f4fe$66467570$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91114 {Anne} An interesting idea there, that the memories shift according to knowledge that's gained later on, and may even possibly be 'altered' by the person's own view and beliefs... However, to be fair, although in this scenario, we can easily assign Snape a 'selfish' streak that will alter his veiwpoint of those memories, I have to object to the idea that only Snape would be doing such a thing. To be fair, if you want to use this scenario, you'd have to allow that any memory in the pensieve is subject to subconsious (as well as concious) tinkering that is also fueled by that person's own take on things. And if you do so, then Dumbledore's memories are just as 'suspect' (though not for the same reasons).... Cindy here-- That's exactly what I think, though. For example, Snape *didn't* hear them as a teen, but that memory is his as an adult? How was he able to flesh it out? Even if he didn't slant it, how is he able to remember things he didn't witness in the first place? Or maybe, just maybe, that's the use of the pensive. You drop your memory in, and it magically completes it, so you can look around at things you didn't notice the first time around. (That's what you're saying, isn't it?) If that's the case, though, I'd suspect that teen witches everywhere would have one. I was a teenager once, and I would have loved to see and hear what everyone was saying when my back was turned. ;) I guess I'd like to see the same memory, factually, from two people's pensives to compare. Ah well... Cindy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From CindyJ2 at cox.net Tue Feb 17 02:42:02 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:42:02 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Twins, time turner, the same person? References: Message-ID: <007301c3f4ff$9fde7520$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91115 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > I've been thinking a lot about Fred and George lately. snipping the majority of the post > I'm re-reading all of the books right now looking for evidence and > clues about Fred and George's identities. I wonder if there are > really two of them. A time Turner could allow a future and former > self to interact couldn't it? I'm still forming this theory, but has > anyone got any theories about what role Fred and George will play in > the upcoming books? Or, what it would mean if there wasn't really a > Fred and George, but just one brother? I don't know what I'm trying > to say here. My head hurts. I'd be surpirsed if Molly allowed them/him a time turner. She'd *have* to be involved, after all, she *knows* how many babies she had. She seems fairly strict about things like this. I think the mis-naming was there to show just how chaotic the situation was right then. After all, she was seeing four kids off to school with all their stuff, and I get the impression that the Weasleys aren't the most organized or prompt family. I took it as an illustration of just how distracted she was at that moment. I also think the Weasley twins are written to give us insight into James and Sirius' relationship. They'd do anything for each other, and cannon tells us that they give James and Sirius a run for their money as troublemakers. They are powerful wizards, and I think they'll play an important role later. Cindy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katiilovesmud at hotmail.com Tue Feb 17 02:43:03 2004 From: katiilovesmud at hotmail.com (katii walls) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:43:03 +0000 Subject: A question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91116 Hi everyone, Sorry, this is my first post and I haven't been around long, so this has probably already been discussed in detail and I can't find it on my slow uni computer! I have been re-reading PS and i was thinking about Snape. We know from OotP that Snape has gone back to Voldemort and is acting as a spy for the Order, but I am wondering why Voldemort would ever accept him back into the fold. In PS, Voldemort is sharing Quirrell's body, and sees everything that he does, *presumably* (I know that whan Harry brings up the fact that he saw Quirrell upset, Quirrell becomes defensive and is quick to assert that he sometimes struggles to follow the orders of his master). Voldemort knows Harry is lying about what he sees in the Mirror of Erised. In the same way, I assume that Voldemort knows that Snape was very much against the idea of Quirrell stealing the Philosophers' Stone for his master. I have no doubt that Voldemort heard Snape asking about Quirrell's "loyalties". Surely Voldemort knew then that Snape was on the other side? Any thoughts? Katii _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From CindyJ2 at cox.net Tue Feb 17 02:47:13 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:47:13 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating with Friends (was: Vold's Attack - Lily & James) References: Message-ID: <007701c3f500$58fbadc0$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91117 >Here are my speculative thoughts on Apparation- (snip) >Reasonably, it take a clear focused >mind, and a clear idea or mental picture of your destination. Steve, That makes sense. Do you think, though, that if one person were to apparate, and the other just wanted to be with the first (as in the case of Bellatrix and V) it would work? Maybe Voldemort apparated, and she just wanted to be with him, so it worked. Cindy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 05:13:38 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:13:38 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91118 But still, as I said in another post, I can only account for about 28, including three dead ones, Karkaroff, and our favorite ex-DE, Snape. But I'm still coming up about 372 short. Carol > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > Call me simplistic, but I think it's just as it is with the Hogwarts > students. We are familiar now with, what?, 50, 60, 70 student > names? Yet we know JKR said there are HUNDREDS of students there. > Likewise, we are familiar with a couple of dozen Death Eater names, > and similarly, there may be many times that number we've just not > heard about. > > I mean, where in the books would it make sense for JKR to have given > us a listing of DEs? Just as we don't get a full Hogwarts roster for > each year, we don't get a roster of DEs. I think that's partly > because it's more character names than we need or could handle and > partly because JKR wants to keep some secrets. Carol: Nah, I won't call you simplistic. It's just that it bothers me to be able to account for less than thirty Death Eaters, living and dead, when Lupin said there were originally about 400. That's a lot of missing people, who can't possibly be accounted for as killed by Aurors. And LV didn't seem to think that the number of DEs in the graveyard was inadequate (knowing, of course, that one more was at Hogwarts and ten more were in Azkaban waiting to be rescued--a bit worse for wear, but we won't bring that up). So, unless Lupin is extremely wide of the mark or JKR can't distinguish between 40 and 400, there has to be some logical explanation for where all the others are. And for the moment, I'm stuck with bboy's (Steve's) idea that the ones whose names we know--Crabbe, Goyle, Karkaroff (yes, I know, he fled), and the groveling Avery, among others, are the elite and the others are the Stan Shunpikes of the DE world. I mean, really. The only DEs with any intelligence that we've seen so far are Malfoy, Wormtail, Rookwood (an Azkaban escapee not present in the graveyard) and Bellatrix (another escapee who's somewhat less than sane). The only really intelligent person (Snape) has left the fold. That's it? And now most of the escapees plus Malfoy and a few others are back in Azkaban (not that I think they'll stay their but their cover is completely blown). That plus several hundred renegade Dementors and about eighty giants who seem as prone to kill each other off as to side with any wizard? That's LV's army? Either this new war is going to be very small-scale and personal, or there's something we don't know--like 370-odd Death Eaters elsewhere in Europe or (if JKR remembers our existence) America. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 05:26:11 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:26:11 -0000 Subject: Apparition & Fidelius In-Reply-To: <005001c3f4bb$cc373e20$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91119 Cindy wrote:> > That's *exactly* how I see it... The fidelius charm acts as a security system. You may know where something is, but you won't be able to get inside unless the secret keeper tells you the secret. In this case, it isn't the address. It's that #12 is the HQ for the Order of the Phoenix. You have to know the complete secret... > > I've often wondered if 9 3/4 was protected by a fidelius charm as well. Every year the students get a letter telling them term begins Sept. 1, and that the train to Hogwards will leave at 11:00 from 9 3/4. Anyone who sees the letter can enter, but if you don't see the letter (like the Dursleys) you can't get by. > I don't think that Platform 9 3/4 is protected by a Fidelius charm. It's more like not a protective spell that won't let you through the barrier if yu're a Muggle. Harry and his friends can't see the platform until they run through a solid wall (which takes a lot of blind faith the first time through). Uncle Vernon saw the letter and could have read it, but he laughed when Harry told him he had to be at Platform 9 3/4 at 11:00. He said something like: "There you are. Platform nine. Platform ten" and went away laughing. But he picks Harry up from the station every year and must see the witches and wizards coming out. He just somehow shuts it out of his mind. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 05:41:33 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:41:33 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91120 > Neri again: > It is interesting that most people here think that LV can't get > information from Harry's mind. After all, Harry himself was able to > receive much more than emotions. He received detailed perceptions, > both visual, sounds and touch. So do you suggest that the channel > between the minds is only in one direction? From LV to Harry but not > the other way around? > > I'd also add that there is at least one piece of canon that strongly > suggests the channel is bi-directional. This is the strong urge that > Harry feels, just before portkeying out of DD's office, to strike at > DD. How would LV know that Harry is near DD (a very rare event) and > this is the moment to strike? The only reasonable explanation I can > think of is that LV got some visual of DD's face through the channel. > And note that Harry is not aware of this. He is only aware of wanting > to kill DD. This means that if LV gets perceptions from Harry through > the channel, Harry would not know about it unless LV tries some > murderous move. This raises the question: how much of Harry's > emotions and perceptions have already leaked through the channel > without him being aware at all? Carol: The distinction I was making is between information (facts and ideas expressed in word--actual thoughts) and the perceptions and emotions you're speaking of. It's the same distinction Snape makes between Legilmency and mind reading: "The mind is not a book, Potter, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by any invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing" (OoP Am. ed. 530). So however skilled the Legilmens at seeing and interpreting memories and sensing emotions, he can't read the thoughts that the mind expresses in words. So information expressed in words, like the address of the Order of the Phoenix, would be safe from a Legilmens even without the Fidelius charm. Or, put another way, LV would not be able to read the words in my mind as I compose this post. Of course I'd have a hard time doing it if he were standing next to my computer! Carol From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 17 05:43:56 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:43:56 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91121 > Sue wrote: > > One of my favorite images from OotP is Harry leading the > > Dursleys out of the train station. In the previous books > > Harry was usually following behind misserably, but this > > time he takes the lead. I love that, IMHO Harry will be > > taking the lead in many things in the next 2 books. > > > Harry is still just a kid. It would be foolish for > Dumbledore or any of the order to let Harry lead anything. > > "james320152002" > I do not believe that Dumbledore will put Harry in a leadership role among the adults. That position is taken. My point was that Harry's strength and power will continue to grow and his capabilities show. Leadership is a quality that can be found at all ages. I am fully aware of Harry's age. It is apparent that Harry will no longer be victimized by Vernon and Petunia and that as far as they are concerned, he is in a postition of power for the first time. Sue From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Tue Feb 17 05:59:02 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:59:02 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Understanding Snape References: <008b01c3f4c1$de5c4400$536a6744@DEAN> <001501c3f4e4$e0275220$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> <006c01c3f4fe$66467570$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: <001d01c3f51b$251bb200$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 91122 {Cindy here--} That's exactly what I think, though. For example, Snape *didn't* hear them as a teen, but that memory is his as an adult? How was he able to flesh it out? Even if he didn't slant it, how is he able to remember things he didn't witness in the first place? Or maybe, just maybe, that's the use of the pensive. You drop your memory in, and it magically completes it, so you can look around at things you didn't notice the first time around. (That's what you're saying, isn't it?) {Anne} Yep--that's about it. Somehow, the pensieve gathers the rest of the information to complete the pieces of the puzzle, or else has a way of 'transporting' the veiwer (or at least thier mind/astral body) to that point in 'real' time--such as through the 'science' used to describe the Mobius Strip (also simply known as the symbol for eternity--the sideways eight-- for those who don't study metaphysics...) , where you can reach any point of Time from any other point because time bends in on itself, or something to that effect...now as to why Harry can't effect anything if its a matter of time manipulation--perhaps it is because *only* his mind (or astral body, take your pick), gets transported through the penseive--leaving his real body left behind as an anchor--that same anchor that gets grabbed both times to pull Harry 'back to himself'. {Cindy} If that's the case, though, I'd suspect that teen witches everywhere would have one. I was a teenager once, and I would have loved to see and hear what everyone was saying when my back was turned. ;) {Anne} Or, more like they would WANT to have one....considering that you have to be able to remove your memories, intact, from your own head (and not damage yourself or somehow damage the memories), and then be able to put them back in your hed without misplacing or scrambling them up once you were done, that in and of itself would seem to raise a pensieve above the status of a mere 'toy' meant for young wizards and witches to muck about with just so they could spy on thier friends and rivals. I also got the impression (if it wasn't outright indicated by Dumbledore at some point), that the penseive is rare...perhapes even one of a kind (like so many of the other things the Headmaster keeps in his study). So, although a lot of people would love to have one, for whatever reason, they are rare and difficult to get hold of, and so only a lucky few (or well-off, like, say, Malfoy Senior)--otherwise, Snape would probably not have to borrow Dumbly's (and would most likely prefer not to, I would think). I put the penseive on the same level as Harry's invisibility cloak--useful, not a toy, and rare enough that the few that are around are treated with care... Not something, then, you would trust the average teen with...^^ From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 06:07:48 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:07:48 -0000 Subject: Understanding Snape In-Reply-To: <008b01c3f4c1$de5c4400$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91123 Carol: > If the memory were subjective, Harry would be limited to Snape's > POV, reading the exam sheet and Severus's answers. As it is, he can > move about inside the memory, just as if he were present (but invisible). > Cindy: > That's how I see it, but I wonder if Snape could "flesh out" a memory? (I don't know if I can explain it...) In other words, once he learns that Lupin is a werewolf go back and say "ohhh, they must have been talking about *that* when he called him Mooney..." From that time forward, his original memory now includes that tidbit, which wasn't there to begin with. > > Or conversely, maybe he's full of self-pity, and later assumes the trio was talking about him. There he was, being studious and minding his own business, and the bullies come up and start plotting against him out of nowhere... So in his memory he's portrayed as a bigger victim than in real life. > > I guess what I wonder is how much fact do we give memories in a pensive? I think we give them as much credence as we do the owner; DD's memories are fact, whereas maybe Snape's are slanted a bit in his favor. Carol: I don't think you can alter the contents of a Pensieve. It's whole function is to present what would otherwise be your own subjective thought in an objective way that you (or someone else) can examine at will--a way of getting at the truth that can't be done in the usual way. Also, if Snape had colored that memory in his favor, there would have been no reason to remove it. As it was, the memory was a record of his public humiliation by Harry's father that he specifically didn't want Harry to see. The whole point of the Pensieve in that scene was not to distort the memory but to store it sfely. Carol, who is really curious as to what those other two memories were and thinks they must be something LV doesn't already know From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 06:20:12 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:20:12 -0000 Subject: How Many DEs Left? Was:Dark SHIPS ( was Re: Possession) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91124 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol: > Nah, I won't call you simplistic. It's just that it bothers me to be > able to account for less than thirty Death Eaters, living and dead, > when Lupin said there were originally about 400. That's a lot of > missing people, who can't possibly be accounted for as killed by > Aurors. Why not? After Voldemort's fall they'd be as weak as lambs against the order and the aurors under the ministry who could no doubt have wiped out the main body of death eaters with possible infighting under Voldemort and after Voldemort's death(power vaccum) being another reason. This question is like asking what happened to the 10,000 jedi knights we see in the prequels and how we're only left with Obi-Wan and Yoda. It's the same answer, they were hunted down and wiped out like Rosier and Wilkers. Remember the aurors under the ministry were allowed to use the unforgivables like the av. > And LV didn't seem to think that the number of DEs in the > graveyard was inadequate (knowing, of course, that one more was at > Hogwarts and ten more were in Azkaban waiting to be rescued--a bit > worse for wear, but we won't bring that up). Remember Voldemort was also counting on getting the giants and possibly dementors to further bulk up and rebuild his army. Besides things have changed after the first war. He has become the literal boggy man of the wizarding world and the leader of the ministry is a fool. > That's it? And now most of the escapees plus Malfoy and a few others > are back in Azkaban (not that I think they'll stay their but their > cover is completely blown). That plus several hundred renegade > Dementors and about eighty giants who seem as prone to kill each other > off as to side with any wizard? That's LV's army? You're forgetting that Voldemort could conscript more wizards in his army through the imperius curse which it seems he did in the last war. No doubt that would net him quite a number of foot soldiers who'd serve as canon fodder. Plus you're putting too much emphasis on numbers which isn't everything in war(communications and logistics which Voldemort has a good handle on i think). Furthermore the opposition namely the ministry is governed by Fudge who is barely competent and the order of the phoenix doesn't even have the numbers of soldiers(giants, dementors& des) that he has. Now his biggest worry is probably going to be securing a base of operations to launch his campaigns of terror and domination if he has not done that already. > Either this new war > is going to be very small-scale and personal, or there's something we > don't know--like 370-odd Death Eaters elsewhere in Europe or (if JKR > remembers our existence) America. We don't even know what Voldemort's plan of action is. Before his cover was blown it seems his primary plan was to gather allies&more intelligence while trying to discredit his enemies. Remember he was a head boy and quite brillant with more than a decade for planning his return so no doubt he has a plan for the giants, dementors and the DEs. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 06:41:33 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:41:33 -0000 Subject: Twins, time turner, the same person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91125 -- > > Sawsan here: > I have wondered about the twins a lot as well. I noticed at the > beginning of OotP that they apperated every few feet to "save time" > and "time is galleons." I wonder why they were always worried about > time. When I reread GoF, I also wondered how they won the bet with > Ludo Bagman, and it was never explained, as I remember. They are > pretty mysterious, and their creations seem to be very advanced. I am > interested to know what their secrets are as well. As for their mother > never being able to tell them apart, that also got to me. My father in > law is an identical twin, and it did not take me too long to tell his > brother and him apart. They seem to function only together, in fact I > don't remember a scene that had only one twin in it. They are usually > never too far apart. Carol: I'm pretty sure that Molly can tell the twins apart with no trouble and was just playing along with them on the Hogwarts Platform in SS/PS She calls Fred by the right name first, he teases her by saying he's George, she says "Sorry, George, dear," then Fred admits she was right in the first place. Would it have made more sense to stand there and argue with him? I think with Fred, going along with the joke is the safest strategy. I can't think of any other instance in which she gets their names wrong. OTOH, she definitely thinks of them together (remember her boggart: "dead twins"?). I do see subtle differences in their personalities (George is gentler and a *little* less inclined toward illegal activitis that could get them in serious trouble, like blackmail). I like George better, as I said, though he does seem to have it in for Percy. (I was a lot happier for them all when they were calling him Weatherby.) I do remember one scene in which the twins are separated. It's when Draco calls their mother names after a Quidditch match. Fred is being held back by the three chasers, George is only being held back by Harry, and when Draco insults Harry's mother, Harry lets go, so he and George are pummeling Draco while Fred is futilely struggling to get in on the action. So at first it's only Harry and George who are sent to MacGonagall's office for a lecture and detention--until Umbridge barges in, decides that they should both be banned from Quidditch for life, and adds that "this young man's twin" should share the punishment because he *wanted* to beat up Draco.(!) Hardly fair to Fred, but in a way I think he'd feel left out if only George were punished and perversely wish that he's been able to escape and be punished, too. But for a moment, it was one Weasley twin in trouble and the other one not. Wonder how George would have felt, and whether Fred would have quit the team in protest or continued to play. Carol, who doesn't see any need for time turners to explain the twins From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 06:54:13 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:54:13 -0000 Subject: What are Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91126 > As far as the Marauder's Map goes, I think Snape was full of it > himself when he called it "full of Dark magic." > > Jim Ferer I'm quite sure that Snape didn't *really* think any such thing. It was only an excuse to call in Lupin, the so-called DADA expert (he may know about boggarts, but Snape knows a great deal more than that about both DADA and the Dark Arts themselves). He knew quite well that Lupin was Moony and one of the makers of the map. Otherwise, how would he have reacted when Lupin said, "I'll just take this back now, shall I?" Back? Lupin hasn't had it since Filch confiscated it twenty or so years earlier. But Snape knew it was his (or MWPP's) and didn't argue. He knew exactly what kind of magic it was full of--adolescent mischief that could take Harry out of his view and into danger. And I think he trusted Lupin to know that, too, and to keep it from Harry as long as he was his teacher. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 07:01:12 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:01:12 -0000 Subject: Twins, time turner, the same person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91127 -"lizvega2" > wrote: I've been thinking a lot about Fred and George lately. Let's see, they bet their entire life savings that Krum would catch the snitch but that Ireland would win. Ginny says in OOP that with the twins, "You start thinking anything's possible". Hmmm.. Anything? Like using a time turner at the world cup to see what the outcome would be, Carol: The explanation they give themselves is a lot simpler. On the one hand, you have the world's greatest seeker, Viktor Krum, who isn't about to let the other seeker catch the snitch. On the other hand, you have the world's best team--or at any rate, the best keeper and beaters, who aren't going to let Bulgaria score, and the world's best chasers, who are going to rack up a lot of points and make fools out of Bulgaria's beaters and keeper. So if you're Fred and George, you figure it out. Krum will get the snitch but Ireland will win. They're smart and they're lucky. Put those two together, and you're likely to win your bets. Carol From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 17 07:53:44 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:53:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] UK slang site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040217075344.56720.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91128 Fred Waldrop wrote: I was reading a post by justCarol67, and she said, "Carol, who has a completely unrelated question: What the heck does Tonks mean by "Wotcher"?" I found a UK site that list hundreds of "slang" words for us Americans that keep getting lost. It is: http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/w.htm And as far as "wotcher" is concerned, it says "wotcha! Exclam. A greeting. A shortening of what cheer! Also spelt wotcher. [Mainly London use]" Hope this helps; Fred Udder_P_D here Wotcher in normal use would mean 'Hello how are you'. Nothing more complicated than that. I hope this helps U Pendragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save ?80 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 08:17:42 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:17:42 -0000 Subject: Apparating with Friends In-Reply-To: <007701c3f500$58fbadc0$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91129 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy Jenkins" wrote: > >Here are my speculative thoughts on Apparation- > (snip) > >Reasonably, it take a clear focused > >mind, and a clear idea or mental picture of your destination. > > Steve, > > That makes sense. Do you think, though, that if one person were to > apparate, and the other just wanted to be with the first (as in the case of > Bellatrix and V) it would work? Maybe Voldemort apparated, and she just > wanted to be with him, so it worked. > > Cindy bboy_mn: Yes, I believe it is possible to apparate with another person, if that person is willing and cooperative, and you can possess that person in the same sense as one can possess the contents of one's pockets and one's clothes, and objects that one might be carrying (not in the Voldemort sense, that's a completely different discussion). But, my main point was that while it is possible, it is risky. There is an element of danger, if there is a conflict in the intent of the people involved. I think that is generally why it isn't done. I also speculate that it is against the rules of Apparation. When you get your license, you agree not to carry passenegers except in extreme emergency situations. Another point regarding the danger of apparating with a passenger is that magical travel seems to take time. We see time pass while people travel through the Floo network, we see time pass while everyone Portkeys to the Quidditch World Cup. If we assume the same degree of preception of the passing of time while apparating, that means a greater chance for an error. The longer you and your passenger are 'in route', the more time there is for your passenger's magical intent to interfer with your own. Probably the best and safest way to do it would be with a passenger that was unconscious. Side note: in case you haven't read my other posts on magical travel, I estimate the relative speed of Portkey and Floo travel at about 72,000mph. That's distance relative to time, you certainly don't preceive that degree of speed inside the Floo Network. Again, it's a relative thing, if a muggle device outside the network covered the same distance in the same time, it's speed would be 72,000mph. Again, all speculation. One nice thing about the next book is that 6th year is the year they all learn to Apparate, so we will finally get some first hand first person details about about what is involved. Can't wait! Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 08:54:49 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:54:49 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91130 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" > wrote: > > > > LizVega here: > > > > After reading OOP- and more importantly the chapter "The Lost > > Prophecy" - I have wondered what Voldemort saw that no one is > > aware of yet. ...edited.... > > LizVaga > Kristen: > > > > I don't have the section to quote, but it came from Dumbledore...the > theory is that LV didn't realize Harry's connection to his mind > until Mr. Weasley's attack. ...edited... > > Kristen > bboy_mn: Harry insight and visions while awake don't occur until later in the book. So, for example, during the dementor attack in Little Whinging, Voldemort might have sense some vague emotions or felt some sense of fear that he couldn't explain, but I seriously doubt he had any vision unless he was asleep and dreaming at the time. Even then, I have my doubts that he saw anything, and if he did, I doubt that he would understand what it all meant. Later in the book, when the link is obviously stronger, and Voldemort is starting to comprehend what is going on, Voldemort may have been able to sense more of Harry's feeling, and might have had a stronger connection to him. But at no time do we really see Harry with a strong waking connection to Voldemort. As the book goes on, Harry can sense the nature of Voldemort's feelings (happy, sad, etc...) but they aren't visual. We have never seen Harry able to see into Voldemort's mind or sense his feelings at will. However, it is clear that once Voldemort understands what is going on, and is able to work the connection to his advantage, he is able to manipulate Harry's mind, but only when Harry is asleep. As far as remote viewing through Harry's eye while they are both awake, there are some subtle hints that this might be occurring, as when Harry feel an angry snake welling up inside him when he looks at Dumbledore. However, this could just as easily be a case of Harry seeing Dumbledore and that feeling or thought of Dumbledore is transmitted to Voldemort. From Voldemort's perspective, it could just be a random thought of Dumbledore popping into his mind. This would bring up his intense hatred of Dumbledore and his desire to kill him. These feeling would in turn be transmitted back to Harry. That's just as logical an explanation, as thinking that Voldemort is awake and literally seeing Dumbledore through Harry's eyes. While we will have to wait for the book to prove me out, I think because Harry has the scar, he has the tightest connection; he is able to see more of Voldemort without effort. However, now that Voldemort is aware of the connection, even though his connection to Harry isn't the strongest of the two, Voldemort is gifted at 'reading' people's minds. So, whereas Harry's connection works off of instinct; Voldemort could increase the effectiveness of his own connection through the focused effort of Legilimency. Either way, it's not like watching TV for either of them, it either takes a vulnerable state of mind, or a forced concentrated effort. And now that they are both aware of the connection and it's potential, I think they are both going to be blocking their minds against the other. By blocking Harry out of his mind, Voldemort by default, also closes the link to Harry. In a sense, when he prevents Harry from getting in, he is also preventing himself from getting out. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Feb 17 16:58:41 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:58:41 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Twins, time turner, the same person? References: Message-ID: <001401c3f577$4b8ab240$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 91131 I don't know when this will finally make it to the list since my ISP is playing games with my e-mail connection at the minute and keeps closing the connection before I can send and/or receive stuff so if I say something someone else has already said it's either because the message took ages getting through or someone said it one one of the 78 messages my ISP are letting know about but not download at the moment. *sigh* LizVega > I've been thinking a lot about Fred and George lately. The first > time we meet them, at Kings Cross Station in PS- They yell at Molly > because she apparently mixed them up, but then just as "Fred" is > going through the barrier, he yells that she had it right the first > time. But, she didn't know the difference, she just said, "Oh, sorry > George"- or something like that. I don't understand how a mother can > mix up her children, even if they are identical twins. I've met > twins, loads of them, and after a little while, the differences > become apparent. But, Molly couldn't do that after thirteen years? K But as you pointed out she *was* right about which was which. Her mistake was not in misidentifying them but in believing them when they were trying to wind her up - and since she was at the time attempting to get four of her own children off to Hogwarts - without losing any of them or their luggage, keeping an eye on her youngest and very excited child and help Harry out it's hardly surprising she was distracted enough to fall for it. LizVega > Their attitude, personalities, goals, etc. all seem different from > any of the other hundred Weasley's. K I don't think their attitudes and goals are at all different from their siblings - as for personalities the seven are all vastly different with the exception that Fred and George are somewhat similar to one another. The seven Weasley offspring all seem motivated by two things - firstly they are all basically 'good' people, yes even Percy. Percy hasn't decided (as far as we know) to follow Ministry guidelines because he's got a secret desire to be evil, but rather because he thinks it is the right thing to do. Secondly they are, as you often find with kids in large families, all trying to be independent and somehow stand out. We don't know much about the oldest two but they do both have jobs which even for the wizarding world seem somewhat exotic (dragon keepers aren't terribly common from what we know and Bill works in Egypt), plus Bill's appearance is in itself non-conformist. Percy tries to stand out by being the perfect son - follows the rules, gets good grades, and now is trying to climb the rungs in his chosen profession. The Twins stand out by being the lovable pranksters - despite all the trouble they cause you get the impression that even the teachers are exasperated by them but don't actually dislike them in any way (plus now they can add the 'cool' way they left school to that reputation). Ginny is lucky in one way in that she already stands out from her siblings by virtue of being a girl - but we also know that she is talkative, outgoing and bubbly (at least when not around the boy she had a crush on - Ron says so himself). Poor Ron was until recently having trouble finding his way because in everything he did he could be compared (unfavourably in his eyes) to his older siblings. The only thing he was doing that was different than them was assisting Harry and in the eyes of everyone outside of the Trio themselves he seemed fated to be a sidekick, if mentioned at all he would be an 'and'. Harry, the-boy-who-lived *and* hisfriendsRonandHermione (sort of an afterthought). Bill was head boy when at school, Charlie was Quidditch captain, Percy got the good grades and Fred and George had the market on mischief cornered - so if he tries to go the popular but responsible Head Boy route he's following in Bill's footsteps, sporting achievement is following Charlie, academic success makes him just like Percy and playing the rebel makes him a copy of the Twins! Uh OK I went into way more detail there than I meant so I'll summarise - the kids all have similar goals and attitudes, it's the methods that they use to try and attain them that differ. K From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 09:07:42 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:07:42 -0000 Subject: What are Dark Arts? - More LINKS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91132 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > Potioncat asked: > Just about any of the magic the students are being taught could be > used for good or evil. So, what are Dark Arts? Does anyone have a > good feel for this? Does anyone have a canon reference about this? > > Tom: > I don't have a lot of time to respond to this in depth, so I'm going > to cheat and send along some links (with some decent threads that > follow) to older discussions in which this is hashed out with some > additional attention to detail. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52468 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52478 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53565 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82138 > > I wouldn't necessarily say that I have a *good* feel for it all, but > maybe just a regular old normal feel, or at least a position on a > feel for it. ;-) > > -Tom bboy_mn: Well, I've been collecting some links on the subject of Dark Magic too. I haven't found the link that I consider the definitive link (one of my own), but here are several more links that might help in the discussion. Dark Magic http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79252 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79014 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76645 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53574 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52538 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53529 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53527 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46104 The summary of my position is that Dark Magic is dark because there is some corrosive aspect to it. In some form, in some sense, all dark magic is destructive and consumptive. It comsumes people, and essenses that it has no right to. In a more spiritual sense, it is corrosive to the soul of the person who uses it. Look at the Voldemmort rebirth potion; it took Harry's blood, Peter's hand, and the bones of Voldemort's father. Those are certainly destructive ingredients. The posts above will explain it in greater detail, and will provide you with may counter arguments to my opinion. Just a thought. bboy_mn From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Tue Feb 17 12:04:35 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:04:35 -0000 Subject: Apparating with Friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > One nice thing about the next book is that 6th year is the year they > all learn to Apparate, so we will finally get some first hand first > person details about about what is involved. Can't wait! > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn dorapye: Apparating in 6th year? Hmmm....by my estimation, not likely. You have to be 'of age' to Apparate, and if this is like the UK driving licence( I'm guessing it is, no canon), this translates to mean you have to have reached the legal age to *study* for the licence test too. All this adds up to Harry not beginning to study Apparition until his 7th year, or possibly during the summer holidays after his 17th birthday. However, Ron could presumably start learing Apparition during 6th year, as his 17th birthday is in March. And as for Hermione, well her age is still contentious, but if she's Apparating in the next book, it will lay that one to rest, at least. Further note, in GoF when the twins are discussing Apparition with Mr Weasley, it transpires that Percy only passed his test two weeks before; so, Percy waited unitl after he had left Hogwarts, at 18, before he took his test. The twins, who were 17 in the April during GoF, were clearly in a hurry to get their licences as they had taken and passed their tests during the summer holidays before the 7th year. dorapye From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 12:09:00 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:09:00 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91134 > > Neri again: > > It is interesting that most people here think that LV can't get > > information from Harry's mind. After all, Harry himself was able to > > receive much more than emotions. He received detailed perceptions, > > both visual, sounds and touch. So do you suggest that the channel > > between the minds is only in one direction? From LV to Harry but not > > the other way around? > > > > I'd also add that there is at least one piece of canon that strongly > > suggests the channel is bi-directional. This is the strong urge that > > Harry feels, just before portkeying out of DD's office, to strike at > > DD. How would LV know that Harry is near DD (a very rare event) and > > this is the moment to strike? The only reasonable explanation I can > > think of is that LV got some visual of DD's face through the channel. > > And note that Harry is not aware of this. He is only aware of wanting > > to kill DD. This means that if LV gets perceptions from Harry through > > the channel, Harry would not know about it unless LV tries some > > murderous move. This raises the question: how much of Harry's > > emotions and perceptions have already leaked through the channel > > without him being aware at all? > > > Carol: > The distinction I was making is between information (facts and ideas > expressed in word--actual thoughts) and the perceptions and emotions > you're speaking of. It's the same distinction Snape makes between > Legilmency and mind reading: "The mind is not a book, Potter, to be > opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the > inside of skulls, to be perused by any invader. The mind is a complex > and many-layered thing" (OoP Am. ed. 530). So however skilled the > Legilmens at seeing and interpreting memories and sensing emotions, he > can't read the thoughts that the mind expresses in words. So > information expressed in words, like the address of the Order of the > Phoenix, would be safe from a Legilmens even without the Fidelius > charm. Or, put another way, LV would not be able to read the words in > my mind as I compose this post. Of course I'd have a hard time doing > it if he were standing next to my computer! Neri: A good point. I agree. The information Harry gets from LV mind is in the form of perceptions, not words or what psychologists call "declarative" memory (such as, "my name: Voldemort; My rank: Dark Lord; My ID#: 666" and so on). But detailed perceptions can be also very important for espionage, too. Note that Harry was actually getting direct visual and sound from a top-security meeting between LV and his most trusted officers. If the channel is bi-directional (which we don't know for sure yet, but it certainly seems possible) then LV might be getting detailed visual and sound from Harry's eyes and ears. Everything Harry sees or hears is automatically suspicious as stuff that leaked to the enemy. Also, Snape was able to see in Harry's mind not only immediate perceptions, but also perceptions stored as memories. The memory of running away from the dog and climbing up the tree, for example. If this scar channel thing works similar to the usual Legilimency (again, we don't really know that, but it seems possible) then LV might be able to see and hear any perceptual memory of Harry. For example, he could replay the memory of hearing Pensieve!Trelawney reciting the full prophecy. And note that,unlike Harry, LV is supposed to be an expert Legilimens. Neri From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 17 12:24:39 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:24:39 -0000 Subject: "Potter for President" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91135 > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > Right. And in the *U.S.* it makes sense, since we have a > > president. But I think the question is, in the U.K., wouldn't > > one expect a "Potter for P.M." sign? > > Bobby: > Yes. What in the British school system or government or society > would make the students use the word "president"? Pip!Squeak: The fact that 'XXXX for President' is an international sort of joke? We wouldn't use 'Potter for P.M.' because Prime Minister is not an elected office. It's a title given to the leader of Her Majesty's government. The Prime Minister is *appointed*, by the ruling monarch. Tradition now dictates that she should only select the leader of the political party that has most seats in the House of Commons; but I think there was one occasion in the 1950's or early 60's when H.M. reportedly told a bitterly squabbling Conservative party that if they didn't hurry up and select their own leader, she was darn well going to pick a Prime Minister for them [grin]. But we do know about Presidential elections in the U.K. - many countries have Presidents. The title is also occasionally used for an official in a club or society. So we'd get the meaning of 'Potter for President'. :-) Pip!Squeak From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Tue Feb 17 12:30:13 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:30:13 -0000 Subject: "Potter for President" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91136 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" wrote: > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > Right. And in the *U.S.* it makes sense, since we have a > > president. But I think the question is, in the U.K., wouldn't one > > expect a "Potter for P.M." sign? > > > Yes. What in the British school system or government or society > would make the students use the word "president"? > > Bobby dorapye: Can think of *nothing* in the British school system that would make Ron and Hermione use the word 'president'. It struck me as odd at the time. I mean, we are exposed to a lot of American Culture in the UK, and maybe JKR was a little influenced by that in this situation.. ...just a thought, when Oliver Wood first explains Quidditch to Harry, Harry comments: "like basketball on brooms," or words similar in effect. Which is strange because, although as a junior school teacher I teach basketball (huh!) to juniors as part of our Games curriculum, there is no real tradition of it being played outside of school, very few clubs, leagues, even school teams rarely exist in the UK. It's still considered a minority, American sport over here. A closer, and more British (though definitely girlie, which is presumably why JKR avoided it) point of reference would have been netball. Maybe Hermione also recognised quidditch as "basketball on brooms" and so chose a slogan for her banner which was decidedly, um American-sounding? Ah, well, that explanation is as good as any, I reckon, though it makes me wonder if JKR, should she ever *closely* scrutinise her books to prune the inconsistencies, might have considered the "Potter for President" banner as worthy of being snipped! dorapye From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Feb 17 21:24:39 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:24:39 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Potter for President" References: Message-ID: <001501c3f59c$73af56c0$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 91137 > dorapye: > A closer, and more British (though definitely girlie, which is > presumably why JKR avoided it) point of reference would have been > netball. > K It may be why JKR avoided it, but it would also be a good explanation for why *Harry* avoided it. He may well never have played basketball but even if it is more American than British it's hardly obscure and he would recognise the similarities even if he didn;t know much about the precise rules of Basketball beyond there's two teams with a ball and they try to get it in the nets. No self-respecting boy of any age would admit to knowing anything about netball and I doubt the sport would have crossed his mind. We played both at my school but basketball was mainly for the boys and netball for the girls - it was perfectly fine for a girl to play basketball but a boy even *thinking* about netball would be considered utterly sissylike - and Harry's probably used to not giving Dudley and co any more reasons than they already have to beat him up. If you actually think it through - quidditch is not much like basketball at all. The *only* similarity is putting a ball in a hoop, which is like saying that because the chasers carry the ball and throw it to one another when in danger of being tackled it's like rugby on broomsticks. K From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Tue Feb 17 13:22:08 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:22:08 -0000 Subject: Hedwig & 12 Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91138 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gandalph_3" > Gandalf wrote: > I was wondering if anyone had any ideas how Hedwig was able to find > 12 Grimmauld Place if it was hidden from Harry til he got there. Is > the protection only against humans? > Good question Gandalf. Unfortunately I don't have an answer, but I have a second part to your question. If it is protection against humans only, then what about the animagi? Could they just sneak in as well? I think that since Hedwig belongs to Harry, that she is bound to him, I suppose. She always knows where he is, and being known to the Order, they perhaps have a way of letting her in. Sawsan From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 15:43:58 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:43:58 -0000 Subject: A question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "katii walls" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Sorry, this is my first post and I haven't been around long, so this has > probably already been discussed in detail and I can't find it on my slow uni > computer! Annemehr: Don't worry. I have trouble finding stuff with my faster one! :) Katii: > > I have been re-reading PS and i was thinking about Snape. We know from OotP > that Snape has gone back to Voldemort and is acting as a spy for the Order, > but I am wondering why Voldemort would ever accept him back into the fold. Annemehr: Actually, I don't think we can say we *know* that Snape has gone back to Voldemort. Other possibilities are that his only contact is with Lucius, or that he's doing something completely different to gain information (or whatever it is that he reports on to the Order). But, yes, many of the fans do think he's spying on Voldemort directly. Katii: > > In PS, Voldemort is sharing Quirrell's body, and sees everything that he > does, *presumably*[...]. Voldemort knows > Harry is lying about what he sees in the Mirror of Erised. In the same way, > I assume that Voldemort knows that Snape was very much against the idea of > Quirrell stealing the Philosophers' Stone for his master. I have no doubt > that Voldemort heard Snape asking about Quirrell's "loyalties". Surely > Voldemort knew then that Snape was on the other side? > > Any thoughts? > > Katii Annemehr: If Voldemort has accepted Snape back as a DE, I think this must be the explanation: In PS/SS, Voldemort did not reveal his presence to *anyone.* He was working through Quirrell alone because Voldemort was in such a vulnerable state. He was being extremely secretive until he obtained the Stone and got his body back. Voldemort would not take the chance that Snape's long stay with Dumbledore had indeed turned Snape away from Voldemort. Because of this, he is aware that Snape may not know who Quirrell was working for. Another point in Snape's favor (from the point of view of Voldemort) is that Snape, as a presumed DE, had an *extremely* valuable position in Dumbledore's inner circle. Snape can't risk exposing himself to Dumbledore and losing that advantage, so he has to act as Dumbledore would expect. Snape would also not want the philosopher's stone in the possession of just *anyone* (which would be very bad for Voldemort himself), and so could act in all sincerity giving Voldemort no lies or deception to detect on his part. Voldemort would know that Snape would have to act as he did until Voldemort was able to reveal himself. More troubling for Snape trying to pass as a loyal DE would be what Pettigrew could tell Voldemort about what happened in the Shrieking Shack. I looks bad that Snape tried very hard to capture the supposed DE Sirius Black. Perhaps this along with, possibly, some bad reports of him from Crouch!Moody in GoF, could make Voldemort believe Snape had betrayed him. On the other hand, I'd bet Snape could talk his way out of the Shrieking Shack suspicions by saying that what he heard before being knocked out was convincing him that Pettigrew was there and that Snape was going to try to help him escape. In other words, I think things are "fuzzy" enough that it is possible to believe that Snape could convince Voldemort that he's still a loyal DE. Personally, I'm guessing that the mission Dumbledore sent Snape on at the end of GoF was something different, but that's just a matter of personal opinion! Annemehr From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 15:45:01 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:45:01 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91140 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" > > wrote: > > > > > > LizVega here: > > > > > > After reading OOP- and more importantly the chapter "The Lost > > > Prophecy" - I have wondered what Voldemort saw that no one is > > > aware of yet. ...edited.... > > > > LizVaga > > > > Kristen: > > > > > > > > I don't have the section to quote, but it came from Dumbledore...the > > theory is that LV didn't realize Harry's connection to his mind > > until Mr. Weasley's attack. ...edited... > > > > Kristen > > > > bboy_mn: > > Harry insight and visions while awake don't occur until later in the > book. So, for example, during the dementor attack in Little Whinging, > Voldemort might have sense some vague emotions or felt some sense of > fear that he couldn't explain, but I seriously doubt he had any vision > unless he was asleep and dreaming at the time. Even then, I have my > doubts that he saw anything, and if he did, I doubt that he would > understand what it all meant. > > Later in the book, when the link is obviously stronger, and Voldemort > is starting to comprehend what is going on, Voldemort may have been > able to sense more of Harry's feeling, and might have had a stronger > connection to him. But at no time do we really see Harry with a strong > waking connection to Voldemort. As the book goes on, Harry can sense > the nature of Voldemort's feelings (happy, sad, etc...) but they > aren't visual. > > We have never seen Harry able to see into Voldemort's mind or sense > his feelings at will. However, it is clear that once Voldemort > understands what is going on, and is able to work the connection to > his advantage, he is able to manipulate Harry's mind, but only when > Harry is asleep. > > As far as remote viewing through Harry's eye while they are both > awake, there are some subtle hints that this might be occurring, as > when Harry feel an angry snake welling up inside him when he looks at > Dumbledore. However, this could just as easily be a case of Harry > seeing Dumbledore and that feeling or thought of Dumbledore is > transmitted to Voldemort. From Voldemort's perspective, it could just > be a random thought of Dumbledore popping into his mind. This would > bring up his intense hatred of Dumbledore and his desire to kill him. > These feeling would in turn be transmitted back to Harry. > > That's just as logical an explanation, as thinking that Voldemort is > awake and literally seeing Dumbledore through Harry's eyes. > > While we will have to wait for the book to prove me out, I think > because Harry has the scar, he has the tightest connection; he is able > to see more of Voldemort without effort. However, now that Voldemort > is aware of the connection, even though his connection to Harry isn't > the strongest of the two, Voldemort is gifted at 'reading' people's > minds. So, whereas Harry's connection works off of instinct; Voldemort > could increase the effectiveness of his own connection through the > focused effort of Legilimency. > > Either way, it's not like watching TV for either of them, it either > takes a vulnerable state of mind, or a forced concentrated effort. And > now that they are both aware of the connection and it's potential, I > think they are both going to be blocking their minds against the > other. By blocking Harry out of his mind, Voldemort by default, also > closes the link to Harry. In a sense, when he prevents Harry from > getting in, he is also preventing himself from getting out. > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn LizVega: Excellent points! And, I just had to add another, might not be excellent, but it's a point... Harry senses LV's emotions when he's awake. LV can plant visions into Harry's mind when he is asleep. So, does LV have dreams about Harry? Everyone has posted that LV didn't become aware of the connection until the attack on Mr. Weasley. But, what if he was having dreams and didn't understand them until then either, just like Harry and the Dept. of Mysteries. Would he have told anyone, like Snape or the DE's that he was having dreams about certain things in Harry's life. Would he have been Harry in the dreams? I believe Snape's version of things, like that he had just been informed that LV was aware of the connection. But, if Harry was having dreams months before this, is it because LV was having dreams, and Harry was seeing those? Or, did LV already know about the connection and was planting the info. in Harry's head? From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 17 15:52:08 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:52:08 -0000 Subject: Twins, time turner, the same person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91141 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: >Why do these two not seem like 'real' Weasleys? "K" Ah, Fred and George. This gives me an opportunity to say that for the most part I don't like them. I don't believe they are evil but I also don't think they are nice. I would not be disappointed if they disappeared for the next two books. I do know there are other references that point to Fred and George not being the sons of Molly but I just can't remember where they are in the books. Sorry. lizvega: > Fred and George remark that HRH "Have been ages"- and Ron says >they met a few people. > > How much time did HRH really take in collecting the water? SNIP > I'm re-reading all of the books right now looking for evidence and > clues about Fred and George's identities. I wonder if there are > really two of them. A time Turner could allow a future and former > self to interact couldn't it? "K" OK. I don't like the time turner but I personally think there are many references in all the books to Harry using the time turner and I wouldn't put it past Fred and George. They make their own rules. lizvega: >I don't see how anyone can doubt that F&G knew what was going to >happen at the game, it's just too much of a long shot. "K" Agreed. lizvega: >I'm still forming this theory, but has anyone got any theories >about what role Fred and George will play in the upcoming books? "K" I believe they are very talented and all those things they invent will come in handy. lizvega: > LizVega, who knows something is wrong with the twins. "K" I don't know if *wrong* is the right word. There's something *different* about them. I'm going to agree with Kreacher: "Hello, Kreacher," said Fred very loudly, closing the door with a snap. The house-elf froze in his tracks, stopped muttering, and then gave a very pronounced and very unconvincing start of surprise. "Kreacher did not see Young Master," he said, turning around and bowing to Fred. Still facing the carpet, he added, perfectly audibly, "Nasty little brat of a blood traitor it is." "Sorry?" said George. "Didn't catch that last bit." "Kreacher said nothing," said the elf, with a second bow to George, adding in a clear undertone, "and there's its twin, ~~unnatural little beasts they are~~." (my emphasis) oop/ch 6/[g 108/us "K" From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 16:06:40 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:06:40 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent!Snape [Was "a question"] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91142 Annemehr: More troubling for Snape trying to pass as a loyal DE would be what Pettigrew could tell Voldemort about what happened in the Shrieking Shack. I looks bad that Snape tried very hard to capture the supposed DE Sirius Black. Perhaps this along with, possibly, some bad reports of him from Crouch!Moody in GoF, could make Voldemort believe Snape had betrayed him. On the other hand, I'd bet Snape could talk his way out of the Shrieking Shack suspicions by saying that what he heard before being knocked out was convincing him that Pettigrew was there and that Snape was going to try to help him escape." Voldemort doesn't impress as the kind of mastermind that lets himself be talked out of much. Snape, even though he has Occlumency, wouldn't be accepted unless he lowered the barriers so that Voldemort could look directly into his mind. In the Muggle world of espionage, Snape is completely "blown," and would never be able to "go operational" again. Snape's work is done some other way. Nothing he gleaned directly from LV could be trusted, given the high probablity it's disinformation designed to trap the Good Guys and smoke out Snape himself. Someone suggested he may have a relationship with someone like Narcissa Malfoy (a relative, after all) who is giving him information. That's plausible, even though there's no direct evidence. He may be working with other "doubles" who are hedging their bets. If that's true, what happens if Narcissa is "blown?" She might suffer a grisly death, and where does that leave dear Draco, who seems to care for her? Jim Ferer The odds are you won't live to see tomorrow -- Johnny Rivers From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 16:38:11 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:38:11 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91143 > bboy_mn: > > As far as remote viewing through Harry's eye while they are both > awake, there are some subtle hints that this might be occurring, as > when Harry feel an angry snake welling up inside him when he looks at > Dumbledore. Annemehr: See, this is part of what's confusing. Harry never feels the snake inside when he merely looks at Dumbledore, no matter what his feelings are at the moment. It happens when *their eyes meet* the night of the attack on Arthur Weasley. It happens again when Dumbledore *takes Harry's wrist* just before disappearing the night the DA was discovered. I am at a loss to explain why the scar link works this way. It seems to be triggered more by any type of extra closeness to Dumbledore than by any feelings of Harry's. I am not sure what to make of this. Maybe Voldemort really was beginning to possess Harry, but in such a weak manner so far that the only indication was the surge of hatred the possessor felt when Dumbledore got too close to the possessee. Subtle possession might help explain how it was that Voldemort was able to send Harry the images of the DoM and the supposed torture of Sirius, I suppose. These snaky episodes also make apparent how utterly disatrous it would have been for Dumbledore to try to teach Harry Occlumency that year. bboy_mn: > > While we will have to wait for the book to prove me out, I think > because Harry has the scar, he has the tightest connection; [...] However, now that Voldemort > is aware of the connection, [...] Voldemort > could increase the effectiveness of his own connection through the > focused effort of Legilimency. > > Either way, it's not like watching TV for either of them, [...]And > now that they are both aware of the connection and it's potential, I > think they are both going to be blocking their minds against the > other. [...] > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn Annemehr: I think you are quite right, especially about the lopsided connection. Harry has the scar itself, which does seem to be the naturally stronger end. Interestingly, not only did it give him emotions and visions first, but apparently it only gives him the pain. The pain has at times been debilitating, but also served as a warning when Harry was as young as eleven. Voldemort has the more cunning mind and developed talent, but Harry has the power (I'll call it love) which repels Voldemort. And yes, there will be a battle of wills over blocking their own minds and seeing into the other's. Voldemort, of course (IMO), will try to make it so that all the seeing is done by himself into Harry, and may indeed leave himself vulnerable that way. In OoP, Dumbledore emphasized Harry blocking his own mind over any thought of using the connection to see into Voldemort's, which seems quite prudent. I admit I can't guess what Dumbledore's ultimate strategy would be beyond preventing Harry from being possessed or tricked again, but I do wonder what the full power of the scar link will turn out to be. Perhaps a final melding of Harry's and Voldemort's -- what -- psyches, with a desperate battle for control foreshadowed by the joined wands in the GoF graveyard? Annemehr getting ahead of herself, maybe From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Feb 17 17:09:22 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 17:09:22 -0000 Subject: Apparating with Friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91144 "dorapye" wrote: Further note, in GoF when the twins are discussing Apparition with Mr Weasley, it transpires that Percy only passed his test two weeks before; so, Percy waited unitl after he had left Hogwarts, at 18, before he took his test. > The twins, who were 17 in the April during GoF, were clearly in a hurry to get their licences as they had taken and passed their tests during the summer holidays before the 7th year. ---------------------- First, we don't know that Percy was 18. He might have a summer birthday like Harry who, if and when comepletes his 7th year, will only be 17. (It would only be mid-July, judging from the twins b- days) As for the twins, the fact they got their license relatively quickly and also that in GoF whenthey are going to the QWC, they ask why they can't apparate there, makes it seem to me like Apparition is much easier than perhaps we might believe. IT was never a question in GoF of whether the twins *could* apparate but whether they would be allowed. Either way, we see both the twins (After their 6th year) and Percy (after his 7th) getting their licenses just weeks out of school so this at least tells us that Apparition takes very little in the ways of training and learning or that it is covered sometime at Hogwarts. Arya (wondering how exactly they would ever regulate the licensing of Appartion) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Feb 17 17:44:30 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 17:44:30 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91145 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: In OoP, Dumbledore > emphasized Harry blocking his own mind over any thought of using the > connection to see into Voldemort's, which seems quite prudent. I > admit I can't guess what Dumbledore's ultimate strategy would be > beyond preventing Harry from being possessed or tricked again, but I > do wonder what the full power of the scar link will turn out to be. > Perhaps a final melding of Harry's and Voldemort's -- what -- psyches, > with a desperate battle for control foreshadowed by the joined wands > in the GoF graveyard? > > Annemehr > getting ahead of herself, maybe Jen: I think it is almost canonical that a melding will happen, with some type of internal struggle for control. First we have Tom Riddle who, as he is possessing Ginny, is also slowly bleeding the life from her. The idea that for one to live the other must die foreshadows the Prophecy. Then we have the wand scene like Annemehr mentioned--external struggle for control. And now in OOTP, the twin snakes who are still "in essence divided" but for how long? Harry is gaining in power daily as he learns new information and skills. It can't be long before he is able to take the offensive at times. We see a bit of this with his visions of being inside the snake seeing Mr. Weasley and inside LV when Voldemort is punishing Avery. Harry is finding the pain almost unbearable, and LV is finding the pain of residing inside Harry too intense. Jen, thinking Sirius' idea of a "deadly struggle for (your) soul" might be a very satisfactory ending. From ellydan at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 17:48:50 2004 From: ellydan at yahoo.com (Melete) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:48:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Demon Possession In-Reply-To: <1076969103.17468.94356.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040217174850.14362.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91146 "Actually the word 'demon' is used several times. Lupin calls the grindylow a "water demon' in PoA. I am wondering about that, and also about the 'odd red gleam' that appears for a moment in Tom Riddle's eyes. As Steve has pointed out in the Lexicon, the Dark Creatures don't seem to have normal life-cycles. They seem to prey on fear and suffering rather than flesh and blood. They also don't fit into the Being/Beast/Spirit classifications which Magizoology uses to classify lifeforms. Many of them, though alive, seem to be less than substantial. The Hinkypunk looks like a wisp of smoke, the Boggart has no fixed physical form, and the Dementors' bodies seem weightless, swooping away into the night when Harry defeats them in OOP. So I am wondering if there is some sort of evil entity, lets call it a Whatsit, since Entity sounds so Stephen King, that tries to colonize magical species and, if it can, gradually turn them into soulless, bodiless copies of itself. The Grindylows, Hinkypunks and Dementors would be in various stages of this process. Dark Magic, then, would be any magic which makes it easier for the Whatsit to take possession of a living thing, or which cannot be performed without the aid of the Whatsit. One wonders if Salazar Slytherin was himself possessed by this Whatsit and if Voldemort is now. That would be an interesting reason for Voldemort to seek immortality. He wants to free himself but he knows that if the Whatsit stops possessing him he'll die, as Quirrell died when Voldemort stopped possessing him. Thoughts? Pippin" hmm an interesting idea..although if you are going to say whatsit..go ahead and say demon. That's really the only classic figure I can think that performs possessions. (at least in western civ.) Grindylows and boggarts however..I like to think JKR was a having a bit of fun bastardizing folklore faeries and sidhe. They are unseelie creatures no doubt but I don't think I would truly put them in the demonic category. I think there can be a bit of confusion over these terms especially in the British Isles where you find folklorists collecting tales about the Unseelie and in their attempts to Christianize the tales calling these creatures Demons..when they are just a darker form of sidhe/sith. I think it might be a lack of terminology b/c Demons in the Westernized Christian sense are fallen angels..very powerful beings that were twisted by their rebellion against God. Now a boggart or Grindylow or Jenny Greenteeth or whatever creature JKR wants to pull into the stories is really is more of a malignant spirit of the land/air/earth/fire (elements). ..although dementors are a particularly nasty creation she has made all on her own. I think a good object lesson on this sort of confusing terminology can be seen in Inuyasha. A fantastic *feudal fairy tale* from Japan : )..I love this anime. At any rate you have Inuyasha the main character who is half dog demon and half human. I think in this circumstance and series demon is less of a Western Christian term..is he really the offspring of a fallen angel --or nephilim..no I don't think so..Is he the offspring of a powerful animal spirit..yes. As far as the spirit of Voldemort living on..I tend to think of him as a really potent stain..All that dark energy feeding on and on perhaps even bolstered by the amount of lives he has taken..He becomes just a bit more harder to take out..even with that great laundry stick you've just bought. His living on Quirrell is a bit confusing but then again as many people have pointed out the reversal of Aveda on him and his subsequent connection to Harry do seem like new and strange circumstances..ones that tend to break our normal rules of magic and existence. I think Voldemort has been twisted so greatly by his desire for power that this is what posseses him.. But thats IMO..certainly the twisting of his features and figure from that of his younger self over time..resemble a sort of possession a la Gollum. I just don't see JKR pulling a demon possession as explanation for Voldemort's behavior..he has been twisted but I think by his own malignant desires and by the dark energy he has exposed himself to. Danielle.. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 18:58:24 2004 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:58:24 -0000 Subject: The Flitwick Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91147 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brian" wrote: > I would almost bet that Flitwick will, > before the end of the series, demonstrate Yoda-like wizardry > virtuosity. > > Agree? Y'know...I think there is much merit in this. -Joe in SoFla From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 17 18:58:51 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:58:51 -0000 Subject: Hedwig & 12 Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91148 snip> Gandalf wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone had any ideas how Hedwig was able to find > > 12 Grimmauld Place if it was hidden from Harry til he got there. Is > > the protection only against humans? > > > > > Good question Gandalf. Unfortunately I don't have an answer, but I > have a second part to your question. If it is protection against > humans only, then what about the animagi? Could they just sneak in as > well? > > I think that since Hedwig belongs to Harry, that she is bound to him, > I suppose. She always knows where he is, and being known to the Order, > they perhaps have a way of letting her in. > > Sawsan I have often wondered about this as well. As a dog, Sirius was able to wander the grounds and halls of Hogwarts without anyone stopping him. As he is such a large dog, I always wondered why Mrs. Norris didn't run to Filch in a complete panic, she seems to find everyone else! This aside, you can see why the ministry keeps such close tabs on animagi, and why some witches and wizards chose not to share the information that they can change. What about the owls? Is there some sort of registry, like a dog license in the U.S.? It would seem that there would be and therefore, anyone who wanted to could locate and identify a particular owl. As far as Grimauld Place is concerned, it seems that animals can see through all of the charms placed on a particular location by wizards, thereby making her able to tap on the window and be let in. IIRC, there were birds around the World Cup Quidditch stadium as well. So many questions...I hope when it is done we have at least most of the answere. Sue From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 17 19:21:04 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:21:04 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91149 snip > Jen: I think it is almost canonical that a melding will happen, with > some type of internal struggle for control. First we have Tom Riddle > who, as he is possessing Ginny, is also slowly bleeding the life > from her. The idea that for one to live the other must die > foreshadows the Prophecy. Then we have the wand scene like Annemehr > mentioned--external struggle for control. And now in OOTP, the twin > snakes who are still "in essence divided" but for how long? Harry is > gaining in power daily as he learns new information and skills. It > can't be long before he is able to take the offensive at times. snip> Jen, thinking Sirius' idea of a "deadly struggle for (your) soul" > might be a very satisfactory ending. Sue: This is interesting, especially the reference to the fact that TM gets stronger as he pulls the life (power) from Ginny. Is it possible that when the AK curse hit Harry the actual charm that Lilly placed on him ( I do believe it was a charm) took the life force from Voldy and gave it to Harry? If that were the case, one of them is on borrowed time. The stronger Harry grows, Voldy would then grow weaker, and visa-versa. "Neither can live while the other survives" simply because they are sharing the same life force and eventually it will not be enough to sustain both of them. Talk about a "mind meld" Sue From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Tue Feb 17 19:31:42 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:31:42 -0000 Subject: (FILK) House of Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91150 House of Black (A Filk by Gail B. to the tune of _I'll Be Back_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle06.html Sirius: I ran far from here as a young man: The House of Black offends Disgrace of Number Twelve Grimmauld Place But I've come back with friends Mom's angry so-o-o She calls me a Blood Traitor No wonder that I hate her O-o ho, o-o oh, oh Now Molly's reminding me how I was locked in Azkaban And Snape just makes me want to escape But I don't think I can I'd much rather not stay inside But since I'm wanted by the law Then Albus Dumbledore Told me that I need to hide O-o ho, o-o oh, oh They keep going out while I stay But I want to help them I'd like to get back my motorbike And be of some use then I want to go-o-o They tell me I shouldn't They say that I'm impudent O-o ho, o-o oh, oh No doubt, I can't wait 'till I get out >From the House of Black, but when? -Gail B. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 17 21:10:12 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:10:12 -0000 Subject: Lockhart as Pullman? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91151 I may be opening a can of worms I really shouldn't open here, but.... And then again, this may have been fully hashed over before. [Has anyone said yet today how sucky the Yahoo Archives Search feature is? Sheesh!] I'm in the midst of John Granger's The Hidden Key to Harry Potter. Don't worry, don't worry--I'm not going to bring up the Christianity stuff in this post! What I am intrigued by is Granger's contention that Gilderoy Lockhart is likely patterned on Philip Pullman. NOTE: I HAVE NOT YET READ THE PULLMAN BOOKS, which is why I am turning to you all wise people!! What I'd like to know is: 1) whether any of you agree this is a likelihood, given a) that JKR said GL is "an exaggeration of someone [she] once knew" [purportedly someone she met at a book show?] and b) that GL is portrayed as arrogant, vain, vacuous, cowardly, attractive primarily to females, and in spite of his harmless facade someone who can be seen as dangerous to young people 2) whether Pullman's books seem to be something JKR might possibly see as "dangerous" [one of Granger's assertions], because they are so materialistic and because of his alleged personal aversion to anything spiritual or otherworldly or afterlife-y or higher plane-y. Respectfully asked, Siriusly Snapey Susan From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Feb 17 21:18:06 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:18:06 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent!Snape [Was "a question"] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91152 > Annemehr: More troubling for Snape trying to pass as a loyal DE would be what Pettigrew could tell Voldemort about what happened in the Shrieking Shack. I looks bad that Snape tried very hard to capture the supposed DE Sirius Black. Pippin: Snape can claim that he thought Dumbledore was testing him when Quirrell attacked Harry and that in his eyes Sirius had to be either innocent, or raving mad, most likely the latter. In either case, he was useless to Voldemort--why should Snape risk revealing himself by aiding his escape? Jim: >> Voldemort doesn't impress as the kind of mastermind that lets himself be talked out of much. Snape, even though he has Occlumency, wouldn't be accepted unless he lowered the barriers so that Voldemort could look directly into his mind.<< I don't think Occlumency works like that. From what Snape says, the barriers erected by the skilled Occlumens are undetectable...all the legilimens sees is a sort of mental Potemkin village. Voldemort can poke around all he wants and never learn anything Snape doesn't want him to know. Jim: >> In the Muggle world of espionage, Snape is completely "blown," and would never be able to "go operational" again. Snape's work is done some other way. Nothing he gleaned directly from LV could be trusted, given the high probablity it's disinformation designed to trap the Good Guys and smoke out Snape himself. > Someone suggested he may have a relationship with >someone like Narcissa Malfoy << Umm, all that buildup at the end of GoF, Dumbledore's apprehension, Snape's pale face and glittering eyes, "if you are prepared" was about Snape going to confront Narcissa or something? If Snape is the "one who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed" then he had little to lose by going to Voldemort directly. You can't retire from the Death Eaters. If he didn't manage to convince Voldemort that he'd never left the fold, it'd only mean dying a little sooner than he would have anyway. As for how Snape can conceal where his loyalties lie, this is the wizarding world. An entire civilization has kept itself secret for 350 years. The wizards are *good* at keeping people from finding things out. Snape's memories are shielded by Occlumency, by the Pensieve, and perhaps by the Secret Keeper spell as well. Pippin From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Feb 17 21:31:12 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:31:12 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91153 > > Jen: I think it is almost canonical that a melding will happen, > with > > some type of internal struggle for control. First we have Tom > Riddle > > who, as he is possessing Ginny, is also slowly bleeding the life > > from her. The idea that for one to live the other must die > > foreshadows the Prophecy. > Sue: > Is it possible that when the AK curse hit Harry the actual charm that Lilly > placed on him ( I do believe it was a charm) took the life force from > Voldy and gave it to Harry? If that were the case, one of them is on > borrowed time. The stronger Harry grows, Voldy would then grow > weaker, and visa-versa. Jen: Uh-oh, you know what that means if this is all true--Harry is growing weaker, or at least he was prior to the end of OOTP. Perhaps that's why it was so easy for LV to access Harry's mind once he discovered the connection? Now Harry has protection again because of the Power he possesses, making it very difficult for LV to drain his life-force for the moment. How will the pendulum swing next? Or maybe what we see now is stasis, reminiscent of the two wands locked in battle just prior to Harry moment of triumph in the graveyard. From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Tue Feb 17 21:55:49 2004 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:55:49 -0000 Subject: "Fantastic Beasts" and "History of Quidditch" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91154 I was wondering whether anyone had read JKR's two little books on Fantastic Beasts and the History of Quidditch and saw anything that might be a clue to what is going to happen in Book 6 or 7? In Fantastic Beasts, Harry and Ron played a game of "Hangman" in the margin, and wrote "You die Weasley!" That I took to be one of many clues pointing to the death of Ron. But that was all I saw as even remotely a clue in either book. From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 21:56:06 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:56:06 -0000 Subject: Lockhart as Pullman? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91155 > I'm in the midst of John Granger's The Hidden Key to Harry Potter. > Don't worry, don't worry--I'm not going to bring up the Christianity > stuff in this post! > > What I am intrigued by is Granger's contention that Gilderoy Lockhart > is likely patterned on Philip Pullman. NOTE: I HAVE NOT YET READ > THE PULLMAN BOOKS, which is why I am turning to you all wise > people!! What I'd like to know is: Hitomi: Hey Susan! I've read all of Pullman's books, except for "Tin Princess," which is the fourth book of the Sally Lockhart series, and has nothing to do whatsoever with "His Dark Materials." Now, some of the things I'm going to say are from the mind of a twelve- year-old girl, because that is the last time I picked up "The Ruby in the Smoke" and its sequels. I read "His Dark Materials" when I was thirteen, and "Amber Spyglass" came out when I was fifteen, so that was the last time I read anything by Pullman. So, if my opinions don't seem overly researched, then it is because I can't remember everything. Gilderoy being fashioned after Sally and her father doesn't make any sense. "His Dark Materials" is fantasy, the Sally Lockhart series are historical mystery, taking place primarily in London, and referring to such events as the Opium War and Industrial England. "His Dark Materials" Oxford was an alternate universe in which Lyra existed, Will being from the world we know. I always assumed Rowling named her character for his "Locked Heart," for his conceit, much like Dickens named his character Harthouse, who seduces the married and miserable Louisa in "Hard Times." (which I haven't read since I was fourteen, so just bear with me) But Sally is nothing like Gilderoy, and the themes of the books are vastly different, which is why I really don't understand the comparison, nor the need for conjecture. > 1) whether any of you agree this is a likelihood, given a) that JKR > said GL is "an exaggeration of someone [she] once knew" [purportedly > someone she met at a book show?] and b) that GL is portrayed as > arrogant, vain, vacuous, cowardly, attractive primarily to females, > and in spite of his harmless facade someone who can be seen as > dangerous to young people Hitomi: Again, I think that's why Rowling named him as such. A "Gilded Locked Away Heart." The appearence of all things amiable and good, but internally quite the opposite. Sort of like Wickham and Darcy, or Willoughby (though I know Willoughby actually loved Marianne, at least as much as he was capable of loving, the bastard) and Colonel Brandon, or Churchill and Knightley. But Sally Lockhart is the protagonist, a woman, who is nothing at all like Gilderoy. She loved her daughter's father very much, whose name was Frederick (he dies in the second book, I believe, before they marry), and she ends up pregnant. Sally's father was not her actual father, but her adopted father, but he loved her very much. (his death is the mystery that instigates the plot in "The Ruby in the Smoke") I don't see similarities, or a least, reasons for why Granger would try to find any, except for the obvious use of the name "Lockhart," which is a pretty common surname in literature. > 2) whether Pullman's books seem to be something JKR might possibly > see as "dangerous" [one of Granger's assertions], because they are so > materialistic and because of his alleged personal aversion to > anything spiritual or otherworldly or afterlife-y or higher plane- y. Hitomi: Well, considering I've read interviews when Rowling recommended reading his work, I doubt it. And there is nothing dangerous about the Sally Lockhart series, well no more dangerous than reading something as real-world as say, Grisham (I absolutely hated "The Firm," immoral book, but "A Time to Kill" and "The Chamber" I loved). "His Dark Materials" can be seen as a religious statement, or at the very least, a political religious statement, which is more along the lines of how I read the series. There are more references to Catholicism (I was raised Catholic), than actual calumination of Christianity. I wouldn't be surprised if Pullman did except Christ as his savior, I just think I would have vastly different beliefs concerning the fact. And all the Adam and Eve references... well, they did fall from grace into sin, and were forced out of paradise. Pullman gives a sympathetic view. I have a love/hate relationship with a lot of the underlying themes in an "Amber Spyglass." It's really how you choose to read the series, though he is blatant about some of his opinions. Just as it is how you choose to interpret "Harry Potter." I don't think JKR meant anything overly Christian to come through in her writing, she's not preaching her religious beliefs. She's just trying to write about good vs. evil, which I think she succeeds in doing, especially considering she grew up in the Western hemisphere, and must have been influenced by that accepted thought (a.k.a. Heaven vs. Hell, God vs. Satan, every spirit is independent to itself - unlike Eastern thought, which is Man vs. World, acceptance of reincarnation and karma, that there is no such thing as "self"). She probably is Christian, she has said she believes in God, but I don't think she's trying to portray that through "Harry Potter." She's just writing her story, and I highly doubt she was influenced by Pullman. All in all, Granger's arguments make no sense to me, except for the fact I think he was grasping for straws. (which I think most of us have done concerning "Harry Potter" and its author) ~ Hitomi, who is now Episcopalian, much to her mother's horror From EnsTren at aol.com Tue Feb 17 22:08:04 2004 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 17:08:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Fantastic Beasts" and "History of Quidditch" Message-ID: <2E018F28.13EF4DF2.00170183@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91156 In a message dated 2/17/2004 4:55:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Robert Jones" writes: >I was wondering whether anyone had read JKR's two little books on >Fantastic Beasts and the History of Quidditch and saw anything that >might be a clue to what is going to happen in Book 6 or 7? > >In Fantastic Beasts, Harry and Ron played a game of "Hangman" in the >margin, and wrote "You die Weasley!" That I took to be one of many >clues pointing to the death of Ron. But that was all I saw as even >remotely a clue in either book. > I think the Quintiped(sp?) in the Beast book is going to be in a book, maybe the seventh one. Why do I think this? Because it's just randomly there, and it's even noted it's ONLY found on an island where no one goes. Like the Thestrals, why put in an animal that you can't even see? Simple: You're going to be able to see it. The Thestrals were kept out of sight, only to be revealed. The quitipeds are kept out of sight geographically and will be brought into sight. Why do I say seventh book? Well forgive me if I'm wrong but the TriWizard tornament does take place every three years, does it not? Or have I gotton confused? Nemi From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Tue Feb 17 22:49:17 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:49:17 -0000 Subject: Lockhart as Pullman? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91157 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > What I am intrigued by is Granger's contention that Gilderoy Lockhart > is likely patterned on Philip Pullman. > AmanitaMuscaria writes: Pullman and JKR are writing from quite similar premises, in one sense - both are fervently for personal choice, and I believe JKR may be moving strongly against given authority - Harry's never been a respecter of persons, although until OotP, he's respected Dumbledore. I think he's now lost respect and trust in any adult - perhaps I mean he's lost unconditional respect - he will now have to relearn where it's possible and wise to give that trust, if he's to retain his humanity. Pullman puts Lyra and Will through similar hoops, though I don't believe he does it as well or as subtly - Lyra's mother wishing to use her to get at her father, and Lyra's father using her to bring a person to him seemed to me to be putting polemic before fiction. So Q1., maybe - I've seen a TV interview and read another where he seems to come across as not fully formed, perhaps. Q2., I wouldn't have thought so - I believe he's got strong beliefs as to where organised religion has led us as opposed to one's innate spirituality or soul or whatever you wish to call it - but then, I think JKR is showing us imposed organisation versus an innate, naiive magic, she's just not couching it in quite such blatantly religious terms. Anyways, Pullman owns pugs. So he can't be all bad! Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 22:53:35 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:53:35 -0000 Subject: "Fantastic Beasts" and "History of Quidditch" In-Reply-To: <2E018F28.13EF4DF2.00170183@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91158 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, EnsTren at a... wrote: Well forgive me if I'm wrong but the TriWizard tornament does take place every three years, does it not? Or have I gotton confused? > > > Nemi I'm pretty sure that it takes place every five years. And another school, either Beauxbatons or Durmstrang, would probably host it. Though I believe that either (or both) Mme. Maxime or Karkaroff stated that they would reconsider participating after the "four champions" incident. And Karkaroff, of course, is on the run for his life, so Durmstrang may not be functioning at peak now anyway. Meri From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 17 23:48:42 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:48:42 -0000 Subject: Lockhart as Pullman? CLARIFICATION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91159 Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > What I am intrigued by is Granger's contention that Gilderoy > > Lockhart is likely patterned on Philip Pullman. Hitomi: > Gilderoy being fashioned after Sally and her father doesn't make > any sense. Siriusly Snapey Susan again: Before this goes any further, I'd like to clarify. What Granger was suggesting is that Gilderoy is based on PHILIP PULLMAN himself, not on one of Pullman's characters [Sally Lockhart or any other]. Siriusly Snapey Susan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 00:34:11 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:34:11 -0000 Subject: UK slang site In-Reply-To: <20040217075344.56720.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91160 Carol, who has a completely unrelated question: What the heck does Tonks mean by "Wotcher"?" Udder_P_D here Wotcher in normal use would mean 'Hello how are you'. Nothing more complicated than that. Carol: So if I tell a ten-year-old that it mean "wocher doin?" (as in "How ya doin'," that'll be close enough, right? Though I do like the etymological information for my own purposes. Wotcher, everybody! Carol (who was at least able to find definitions for "git" and "prat" soon after she began reading SS) From amani at charter.net Wed Feb 18 01:13:24 2004 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:13:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lockhart as Pullman? References: Message-ID: <002301c3f5bc$683a16c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91161 Siriusly Snapey Susan: What I am intrigued by is Granger's contention that Gilderoy Lockhart is likely patterned on Philip Pullman. NOTE: I HAVE NOT YET READ THE PULLMAN BOOKS, which is why I am turning to you all wise people!! What I'd like to know is: 2) whether Pullman's books seem to be something JKR might possibly see as "dangerous" [one of Granger's assertions], because they are so materialistic and because of his alleged personal aversion to anything spiritual or otherworldly or afterlife-y or higher plane-y. Taryn: This one is a definite NO, as JKR has recommended Philip Pullman multiple times in interviews. -Are there any books you would recommend to your fans to read while they await Book 5? -Loads! Read E. Nesbit, Philip Pullman, Henrietta Branford, Paul Gallico. Just read! http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-scholastic-chat.htm But Rowling did list some of her favorite children's authors, saying she has been inspired by the likes of Philip Pullman, Paul Gallico and, the grande dame of children's fantasy novels, E. Nesbitt. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-postgazette-macphers.html Philip Pullman is a writer I very much admire. I think he can write most adult authors off the page. . . . I think he's amazing. His book 'Clockwork' is a book that I think is an absolutely stunning piece of work. I often get asked at events. 'What can I read? I'm done with the Harry Potter book.' That's the book I recommend. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-oregonian-baker.htm?/books/00/10/al_11browl22.frame Basically, just do a search on "Pullman" at Quick Quotes and you'll get a large amount. Pullman's lack of return enthusiasm for the Harry Potter books is unfortunate, but nothing to linger on. JKR's multiple recommendations of his books TO children make it pretty obvious (to me) that she doesn't find them to be dangerous for young people. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 01:24:54 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 01:24:54 -0000 Subject: Dark Magic and Evil (WAS: Grindelwald and evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91162 Tom wrote: > I've been having some trouble > lately understanding exactly > why so many of us (myself included) > equate "Dark" Wizards with "Evil" > wizards. > But we also know that they study both posions *and* antidotes at > Hogwarts, in potions class. > Carol: True. Which makes me wonder why DD allows Snape to teach his students to make poisons but won't allow him to teach DADA. One would be as dangerous as the other if Snape really intended to slip back into evil ways. Tom: And the Hand of Glory? Borgin says: "Insert a candle and it gives light only to the holder! Best friend of theives and plunderers." But, I'm not clear on exactly why this would be considered a 'dark' item. For instance, it would seem to me to be extremely useful for 'good' wizards who want to be secretive, for instance. Carol: Or how about for a certain spy who might want to see nighttime meetings without being seen? Tom: Voldemort says, in the graveyard scene: '- it is an old piece of Dark Magic, the potion that revived me tonight -" Whether or not this bit of Dark Magic actually cheapens the life one lives, ala drinking unicorn's blood, we aren't told, althouh from what I infer it wouldn't seem to do so., otherwise I can't see Voldemort using it. But again, I can't see why this piece of magic is necessarily 'evil,' I mean, good wizards have both servants and enemies as well, and I could see many useful occasions for bringing a wizard back to life. Carol: Now this time I have to disagree with you. The spell requires the wizard performing it to violate his father's grave, take blood from a living enemy, and take the flesh of a servant. That, to me, makes it evil whether the intended benefit is evil or not. I'm unclear, though, about whether the spell actually required the servant to have his hand chopped off (which would make it even more evil, as would even a finger or a toe). Surely there was some way to obtain the flesh of the servant without maiming and mutilating him? Maybe Voldemort made Wormtail cut off his hand because he intended all along to give him the silver hand if obeyed the order? (I have a feeling it's going to be a formidable weapon, but I don't want to get into that now.) Tom: But on the other hand, I don't see how curses could really be used for anything particularly 'good.' So, I guess what I'm saying here is that it's not a foregone conclusion that the Dark Arts are necessarily 'Evil,' although they can be used for that purpose. Carol: I think the Unforgiveable Curses are both Dark and Evil in themselves and because of the cold, calculated ill will (or blind hatred) required to perform them. Other curses and hexes are less clearly evil, though I for one don't think any good is going to come of the hexes placed on Malfoy and his thuggish friends at the end of OoP. It will only make them vengeful and eager to retaliate. Tom: And just because a witch or wizard learns, knows, or even uses the Dark Arts, that doesn't automatically make that person 'evil.' Carol: While I think that Dumbledore is right not to teach the Dark Arts at Hogwarts (and I wonder whether Crouch!Moody really had his permission to use Unforgiveables on those spiders), I agree that learning them (as opposed to using them) doesn't necessarily make a person evil. I don't want to bring in Snape, who's already sufficiently controversial, but I would argue that Viktor Krum is not evil despite having presumably learned the Dark Arts from Karkaroff. Yes, he Crucio'd poor Cedric, but he was under the Imperius curse at the time (and I think regretted what he'd done). He liked Cedric and likes Hermione and he hasn't let fame go to his head. I do worry that something of the sort will happen again since Viktor has shown himself to be vulnerable to the Imperius Curse and would make a perfect scapegoat for a DE who wanted to manipulate him, but I don't think that he's evil now even though he's been taught the Cruciatus Curse. If he were to cast it deliberately and with calculating or malicious intent, however, I would change my mind about him and fear that he was beyond redemption. Carol From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Wed Feb 18 01:49:10 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 01:49:10 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91163 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Jen: Uh-oh, you know what that means if this is all true--Harry is > growing weaker, or at least he was prior to the end of OOTP. Perhaps > that's why it was so easy for LV to access Harry's mind once he > discovered the connection? Now Harry has protection again because of > the Power he possesses, making it very difficult for LV to drain his > life-force for the moment. How will the pendulum swing next? Or > maybe what we see now is stasis, reminiscent of the two wands locked > in battle just prior to Harry moment of triumph in the graveyard. Kristen butting in again (this is the 1st thread in a while that has grabbed my attention) A very interesting theory about sharing life force. What canon are you thinking of to illustrate that Harry was weakened in OOP? I can't think of any evidence of that. He was more emotional in this book, but I didn't see that as a weakness. He was upset that Sirius died, but DD said..."On the contrary...the fact that you can feel pain like that is your greatest strength." If the ending of this really does mirror the scene with the shared wand cores then the takeaway from that scene is that when Harry puts his mind to it, he is more powerful than LV (i.e. forcing the thread back into LV's wand) - probably because his love/emotions/courage/whatever make him stronger. LV, who doesn't buy into love and friendship or anything beyond his own self, cannot overpower that. Overall a pretty nice message for a septology :). Kristen From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Wed Feb 18 02:01:29 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 02:01:29 -0000 Subject: How will Harry win in the end? (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91164 I've been reading through the second world war thread and wanted to gather my thoughts on this end game that will play out over the next 2 books. Harry has been set up with the prophesy and vague clues to what must happen at the end of the septology - either he or LV must die. The question I've been pondering is that if Harry will win, what weapon will he use to defeat LV? Will he kill LV with the AK curse? I don't think so - it doesn't seem right that Harry would use an unforgivable curse that must be backed by hatred and evil to work. So then, what will he use? In the end-game of OOP, Dumbledore tells Harry that his emotions are his biggest strengh and that there is a room in the department of mysteries that contains the power Harry has in huge quantities. To me this points to a new weapon that Harry must learn to harness over the next 2 books to be victorious. What will that be? We do have some clues... Harry's eyes will play a part. They come from his mother who was obviously full of love and goodness as we witnessed in the Pensieve scene with Snape and the fact that she died to save him. We have seen throughout the books that Harry gains courage from the Phoenix song. (ok this sounds sappy) This is very similar, in my mind to the strength Harry gains from his friends and "family" (Weasley's, Lupin, Hermione, etc...). What would be the strength he would gain from true love (this sounds like the Princess Bride)? I think that for Harry to win, he will need to fashion a new weapon made up of the emotions that LV cannot stand. DD also told LV during their battle that there are things worse than death. Then later said that LV hated anything to do with love/emotions. Is that the key to the weapon that will kill him? I think so. I think the clues are pointing to 2 things - the second world war which must be won by the Order and Harry's personal battle with LV. I'm not sure that all the clues we're getting are going to the same thing. For example, Bill Weasley's future...does it lie on the same path as the door in the Department of Mysteries? I think they're separate things. Thoughts? Kristen From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 02:47:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 02:47:34 -0000 Subject: Hedwig & 12 Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91165 Gandalf wrote: I was wondering if anyone had any ideas how Hedwig was able to find 12 Grimmauld Place if it was hidden from Harry til he got there. Is the protection only against humans? Sawsan: Good question Gandalf. Unfortunately I don't have an answer, but I have a second part to your question. If it is protection against humans only, then what about the animagi? Could they just sneak in as well? I think that since Hedwig belongs to Harry, that she is bound to him, I suppose. She always knows where he is, and being known to the Order, they perhaps have a way of letting her in. As far as Grimauld Place is concerned, it seems that animals can see through all of the charms placed on a particular location by wizards, thereby making her able to tap on the window and be let in. Carol: To begin with, I wonder how the owls can find the recipient of the letter even if the sender doesn't know where he or she is (Sirius on the run, for example). And can they read? Petunia's Howler actually specifies that she's in the kitchen. (how did Dumbledore know she'd be in the kitchen when the letter got there? And how did he or McGonagall know that he'd been moved from the cupboard under the stairs to the smallest bedroom?) But, as usual, I digress. I think that owls are magical creatures and that somehow charms created to fool humans have no effedt on them. Clearly they aren't deterred by the Muggle-repelling charms that make Hogwarts invisible to Muggles so maybe the Fidelius charm and various other protections placed on Grimmauld Place have no effect on them. As for getting inside, my brief experience with English life taught me that, unlike us Americans, the British leave their windows wide open with no screens to keep out flies--or birds. An animagus (Sirius as a dog or McGonagall as a cat) could not fly in and would have to have the door opened for him if he were in animal form. Why not just open the door in his or her human form? IIRC, it's hidden but not locked. (I don't know why Mundungus et al. ring the bell. It's just stupid.) As for animagi knowing about Grimmauld Place, they'd have been given the secret when they were in human form. That leaves Crookshanks, who could probably find his way from Hogwarts to Grimmauld Place if he chose to make such a long journey on foot (or hopping in the back of a pickup truck--or whatever you call them in Britain), but he'd have to find an open ground floor window to hop through or wander around meowing loudly until someone heard him and opened the door. (Not that I think Grimmauld Place has ground floor windows or that the Order would open them if it did. But Hedwig, unrepelled by protective charms and unfettered by having to travel on foot, could just fly in through an upper-story window. Even Errol could do it, though he'd choose to fly into a closed window just because he's Errol. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 03:26:32 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:26:32 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent!Snape [Was "a question"] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91166 > Jim: > >> Voldemort doesn't impress as the kind of mastermind that > lets himself be talked out of much. Snape, even though he has > Occlumency, wouldn't be accepted unless he lowered the > barriers so that Voldemort could look directly into his mind.<< > Pippin: > I don't think Occlumency works like that. From what Snape says, > the barriers erected by the skilled Occlumens are > undetectable...all the legilimens sees is a sort of mental > Potemkin village. Voldemort can poke around all he wants and > never learn anything Snape doesn't want him to know. > Carol: I agree. Occlumency doesn't block access to all memories--that would be too obvious. It just block memories that would contradict the lie the Occlumens is telling or that, for whatever reason, the occlumens doesn't want the legilimens to see. So if Snape is dealing directly with LV, occlumency would protect him. (I happen to think that Snape walks around with the windows to his mind habitually closed so that no one could guess his thought--that's why his eyes look lie a dark, empty passageway, but that wouldn't work with LV. He'd have to allow LV inside his mind, to "poke around," as Pippin puts it, but with specific memories hidden. Snape needs his own pensieve to make the job less dangerous still.) IMO, however, LV did think Snape was working against him with Quirrell because LV doesn't trust anybody and he who is not with me is against me, in his view. He would also have suspected Snape's loyalty because he wasn't in the graveyard. However, Snape could have convinced Lucius that he didn't know LV was in Quirrell's head and he was only trying to stop Quirrell himself and given plausible explanations for his absence from the graveyard. If Lucius (not an occlumens that we know of) went to LV believing Snape's story, LV would see that Lucius wasn't lying and would, possibly, believe it, too. Once that had happened, Snape could get his news of the DEs directly from LV (he would know when a meeting was planned because his dark mark was planned) as well as indirectly from Lucius, and he would have the excuse of having to be at Hogwarts and being unable to apparate for not attending those meetings during the school year. (He would have had to present a similar false story about the Sirius/Pettigrew situation, but knowing Snape, he could do it.) Jim: >> In the Muggle world of espionage, Snape is completely "blown," and would never be able to "go operational" again. Snape's work is done some other way. Nothing he gleaned directly from LV could be trusted, given the high probablity it's disinformation designed to trap the Good Guys and smoke out Snape himself. Someone suggested he may have a relationship with someone like Narcissa Malfoy << > Pippin: Umm, all that buildup at the end of GoF, Dumbledore's apprehension, Snape's pale face and glittering eyes, "if you are prepared" was about Snape going to confront Narcissa or something? Carol: I have to agree. He was either going to the DEs, probably Lucius, or to LV himself. I think Lucius in this case, but that's only my feeling, not a point I can support with evidence. Pippin: If Snape is the "one who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed" then he had little to lose by going to Voldemort directly. You can't retire from the Death Eaters. If he didn't manage to convince Voldemort that he'd never left the fold, it'd only mean dying a little sooner than he would have anyway. As for how Snape can conceal where his loyalties lie, this is the wizarding world. An entire civilization has kept itself secret for 350 years. The wizards are *good* at keeping people from finding things out. Snape's memories are shielded by Occlumency, by the Pensieve, and perhaps by the Secret Keeper spell as well. Carol: I do think he's the one LV thought (rightly) had left him forever. He can't be the loyal servant at Hogwarts (Crouch) or the coward who fled (Karkaroff)--those positions are clearly taken by other people. And he can't have been in the graveyard. There wasn't time to leave the Tri-Wizard tournament, grab a hood and robe, run to Hogsmeade, apparate, watch the events in the graveyard, disapparate, hide the mask and robe, and return to the tournament in time to help DD unmask the imposter. And he could have presented all that as a plaausible excuse to Malfoy, as I've indicated above. Otherwise, I agree with you that Snape, with the help and knowledge of DD, can hide from the DEs and even from LV himself where his loyalties lie. Not all wizards could do it, but Snape is not an ordinary wizard. He's a superb occlumens, he can think like a Death Eater, and he's very, very intelligent. OTOH, after the events in the DoM, his main contact is in Azkaban and he'll probably need to work directly with LV. And if LV suspects that he had anything to do with the Order members and Dumbledore showing up, then the dangers he's been facing have just increased tenfold. If JKR hadn't told us to watch for him in Book 7, I'd be worried about losing him in Book 6. (And, yes, I do care very much about Snape.) Carol, who wishes that Fred hadn't put "Secret Agent Man" into her head! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 03:38:01 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:38:01 -0000 Subject: "Fantastic Beasts" and "History of Quidditch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, EnsTren at a... wrote: > Well forgive me if I'm wrong but the TriWizard tornament does take > place every three years, does it not? Or have I gotton confused? > > > > > > Nemi > > I'm pretty sure that it takes place every five years. And another > school, either Beauxbatons or Durmstrang, would probably host it. > Though I believe that either (or both) Mme. Maxime or Karkaroff > stated that they would reconsider participating after the "four > champions" incident. And Karkaroff, of course, is on the run for his > life, so Durmstrang may not be functioning at peak now anyway. > Meri Didn't Dumbledore say that it hadn't taken place for several hundred years? He seems to be reinstuting a long disused custom in the hope of uniting the three major wizarding schools in Europe. Carol, who notices that we now have Meri, Neri, and Nemi and is waiting for Ori, Dori, and Nori From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 03:47:42 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:47:42 -0000 Subject: The Second Voldemort War, Stage II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91168 Kristen wrote: > A very interesting theory about sharing life force. What canon are > you thinking of to illustrate that Harry was weakened in OOP? I > can't think of any evidence of that. He was more emotional in this > book, but I didn't see that as a weakness. He was upset that Sirius > died, but DD said..."On the contrary...the fact that you can feel > pain like that is your greatest strength." Carol: It just occurred to me (and therefore I'm probably wrong), but what if the mysterious force behind the locked door in the DoM is pain? (I really don't think it's love; Harry doesn't love any more deeply or powerfully than anyone else.) Carol From EnsTren at aol.com Wed Feb 18 03:50:11 2004 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:50:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Fantastic Beasts" and "History of Quidditch" Message-ID: <28C1BE29.2460AA96.00170183@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91169 In a message dated 2/17/2004 10:38:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, "justcarol67" writes: >Didn't Dumbledore say that it hadn't taken place for several hundred >years? He seems to be reinstuting a long disused custom in the hope of >uniting the three major wizarding schools in Europe. > That's a very clever insight actually. I think once we finish the serries it will be nice to reread the books and pick up on all that we missed before. >Carol, who notices that we now have Meri, Neri, and Nemi and is >waiting for Ori, Dori, and Nori > I can change my name to Nesme if you want, it's pronounced the same way (Nem-E) Nemi/Nesme From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Feb 18 04:15:28 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 04:15:28 -0000 Subject: Filks: Two Songs from A Chorus Line Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91170 Two filks from A Chorus Line (this *may* become a another full-length musical, if I can figure out what to do with "Hello Twelve") I Can Do Bad To the tune of I Can Do That, from A Chorus Line Dedicated to Gail B. (who cannot do bad) MIDI at: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/8849/Moviemusicals/Resu me/One.htm#songs BELLATRIX I'm watchin' Frank with pain go mad Said, I can do bad, I can do bad. I was the Dark Lord's brightest grad, Cause I can do bad, I can do bad. One trial Crouch throws us in jail, His son, `dolfus, Fourth man and me But I defied B.C. "Lock us away but we'll gain reward >From the Dark Lord, You Auror cad! Hell, I can do bad, I can do bad!" I got to DOM and there met Black Made my attack And so took his life Now it's finis (Padfoot, how sad!) See, I can do this. That I can do, I can do bad! In Fanfic To the tune of Dance Ten, Looks Three (aka Tits and Ass) from A Chorus Line Dedicated to Constance Vigilance MIDI at: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/8849/Moviemusicals/Resu me/One.htm#songs DRACO: Canonically I'm no Techno-Terminator Just a losing second-rater That it ain't it, that ain't it, kid Canonically I'm a dead duck But there's writers who take some brighter Views I'm not merely a schmuck In fanfic I'm the Gothic poster child With the wit of Oscar Wilde And a sex appeal Totally unreal In fanfic Not just Crabbe & Goyle's mate Suddenly I'm singin' my own song In fanfic all decked out in A leather thong I exude a stern charisma I collected from my Wiz pa Canonically, I'm a blowhard and a coward Soon by Potter overpowered That it ain't it, that ain't it, kid Rewrite, call me For Dormiens! I kick derriere when Cassandra Claire Wields her potent pen. How? In fanfic, I can play the total snob Yet appeal to the mob No lobotomy No Longbottom, me! As the champ Seeker of the SQT I will gain when suave and debonair In fanfic, a whole new life Of savoir-faire! Be a cynic, Call it all absurd. Act Byronically, And iconically Fans'll hang on each word. For in fanfic Both in shipping and in slash I excel through looks and cash Screw the textual Keep it sexual Thin or thick, I'll go all and either way I'm successful, handsome, young, and rich In fanfic, yes, in fanfic, Potter's my bitch! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm Though I'm not much advocate of the good-guy Draco school, I must recommend Cassandra Claire's Draco Dormiens one of the most amusing and cleverly plotted HP fanfics http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Cassandra_Claire/ From smaragdina5 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 04:37:54 2004 From: smaragdina5 at yahoo.com (smaragdina5) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 04:37:54 -0000 Subject: Alchemy and melting of Harry/Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91171 So, assuming some folks who have been reading this board long enough have some idea of (or can look up) the theories based on JKR's heavy alchemy references in Harry Potter (e.g., John Granger articles/books, Thinkpotter.com several articles on the 'heart of it all' book 7 alchemy end), does anyone have thoughts on the theory that Book 7 would have some kind of fusing of Harry and Voldemort into one enlightened product? If this sounds nuts offhand, check up the abovementioned background. Meanwhile, I hadn't visited the theory in some months, but am starting to have ideas of how this might come to pass (in several fantastical versions interpreting such a result). Also, John Granger was waiting for RUBEUS Hagrid to have an important influence on Harry as a later alchemy stage (after white/Albus and black/Sirius)-- apparently JKR even gave the actor some secret background info on Hagrid's character's past- Anyone have thoughts on this coming up? Betta smaragdina From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 09:05:56 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:05:56 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent!Snape [Was "a question"] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91172 > Carol: > I do think he's the one LV thought (rightly) had left him forever. He > can't be the loyal servant at Hogwarts (Crouch) or the coward who fled > (Karkaroff)--those positions are clearly taken by other people. And he > can't have been in the graveyard. There wasn't time to leave the > Tri-Wizard tournament, grab a hood and robe, run to Hogsmeade, > apparate, watch the events in the graveyard, disapparate, hide the > mask and robe, and return to the tournament in time to help DD unmask > the imposter. And he could have presented all that as a plaausible > excuse to Malfoy, as I've indicated above. > > Otherwise, I agree with you that Snape, with the help and knowledge of > DD, can hide from the DEs and even from LV himself where his loyalties > lie. Not all wizards could do it, but Snape is not an ordinary wizard. > He's a superb occlumens, he can think like a Death Eater, and he's > very, very intelligent. OTOH, after the events in the DoM, his main > contact is in Azkaban and he'll probably need to work directly with > LV. And if LV suspects that he had anything to do with the Order > members and Dumbledore showing up, then the dangers he's been facing > have just increased tenfold. If JKR hadn't told us to watch for him in > Book 7, I'd be worried about losing him in Book 6. (And, yes, I do > care very much about Snape.) > > Carol, who wishes that Fred hadn't put "Secret Agent Man" into her head! On Mugglenet.com, Maline (North Tower) has a couple of excellent essays about "The Missing Death Eater" and "Snape Versus Time" (I think those are the titles) that address these things. They are worth the read. Basically, she suggests that Snape was in the circle of DEs in the cemetary at the end of GoF and presents an argument for Fudge being the missing DE. Julie From beneficii at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 01:16:34 2004 From: beneficii at yahoo.com (beneficii) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 01:16:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Didn't Lie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91173 In _The Prisoner of Azkaban_, near the end after Harry and Hermione return from saving Buckbeak and Black, we see Snape yelling his head off and Fudge trying to console him, while Dumbledore enjoys himself. Dumbledore does speak, but you can see he does not directly lie. Instead of saying that Harry and Hermione were in their beds the whole time (which he knows wasn't true) directly, he first says they were locked in their rooms and asked Madam Pomfrey if they had been in bed. She answers "yes," of course. What we see hear is interesting: Dumbledore doesn't lie about it. He knows what happened was different from what he wanted others to believe, but he doesn't lie to tell them that. Hats off for Dumbledore who is indeed wise. ^_^ Beneficii From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Wed Feb 18 01:47:58 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 01:47:58 -0000 Subject: PoA Plot does not work. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91174 Hey all After re-reading PoA, something occurred to me. Okay we all know about the time-tuner and how it allowed Harry to rescue Sirius. There is something about the order of events that does not make sense. Okay so the first time Harry is at the lake for the FIRST time, he sees himself across the lake? How can that be? Follow my thoughts, because the narration is told in a line. He goes down to the lake to save Sirius and blacks out. Then he wakes up in the hospital wing, and DD and Hermione tell him about the time turner and he goes back in time for the FIRST time. Then still on the First time he goes to the lake and drives away the dementors. Look at this graph: Sees himself Harry blacks out Goes to the hospital wing then goes back in time and saves himself This is how it is told, but it could not have happened this way. How could Harry see himself, when he had not gone back in time yet? It is impossible. See how the there is introduction of another line of time before he himself starts that line of time? He should not have been there to save himself the first time because he had not gone back into yet. The dementors the first time should have killed him and Sirius. I realize this is a hard subject to explain but if you think it about it independently you should be able to see what I am saying. How can there be two Harry's before the narration accounts for it? Let me try and give and example. If I had a time turner here say I wanted to go back in time and retake a test I took. Now the first time I took the test I would not see myself, because I did not decide to go back in time before the action took place, or even if I did decide to do it, I would have to take the test before I could go back in time and do it again. Harry blacked out at the lake, but he saw himself. This means the action did not play itself out the fully the time we are given as the first time/ there is an introduction of a second Harry when we are given the FIRST time at the lake. Sorry if I I cannot explain this the correct way I see it. If I can I will send in a graph to explain it better. John From ahtrap at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 04:45:22 2004 From: ahtrap at yahoo.com (Partha Mukhopadhyay) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 04:45:22 -0000 Subject: How did Fudge/Snape know about Dementors attacking HP in PoA? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91175 Greetings, folks, how go the lives? 1st post, so apologies if you've beaten this issue to death in the past; however, I've been poking in and out of various "HP errors" style pages, including the one for this newsgroup, and none of them quite seen to address the topic. I figure the 'answer' is out there, but thought I might ask a whole bunch of you at once. My question is this: Near the end of PoA, how, if Snape was knocked out when the dementors went after Harry, did he, and/or Fudge know that the dementors had tried to Kiss Harry? Talking to Fudge outside the hospital ward, Snape says something along the lines of not knowing what drove the dementors back, that by the time he came to, they were retreating, which suggests that he didn't actually see the dementor attempt to kiss Harry, and therefore that he did not know the details of the attack, or was even aware of anything that had happened. It's safe to say he also did not see the patronus, as he would have recognized it for what it was, had he been awake to see the initial dementor retreat. Since no one else was around, how the heck did he or Fudge know that that attack had occurred? Hermione and Harry at that point hadn't talked to Fudge or Snape or Dumbledore, as they were just awakening in the hospital wing. If I recall correctly, in the very brief meeting of Harry and Fudge (pre-time turner action? I haven't read the book in months, this is just something that's bugging me for no discernible reason today), there is no mention of the attack. And in the subsequent action, there is no meeting between Fudge and anyone who might have been able to tell him that the dementors did indeed try to Kiss Potter - Sirius was unconscious at the time of that attack (as one of the HPfGu threads I looked at a few minutes ago about that specific attack posited, maybe the Dementors went after Harry because he was the only one conscious at the time), and Harry and Hermione don't meet up with Fudge until the very end. It's at that time that Fudge says something to the effect that he can't believe the dementors would have tried to kiss an innocent boy. So, overlarge post boiled down to one line: How did Cornelius Fudge know about the attempted Dementor's Kiss on Harry Potter? I recall no line in the book that would suggest that he could possibly have know what had happened. The argument above points to no one from whom he could have learned about the incident (possible exception below) Every time I've tried to bounce this off a friend who might care, I've been met with an unsatisfying, "Dumbledore knows everything" or "Fudge asked the Dementors about what had happened out there." I can't argue with the prior other than to say that it's a weak copout, and I find the latter unlikely, as it's necessary to assume that any particular head dementor that Fudge would talk to would a) happen to know of that particular action by one of his "people", and b) actually share that information with Fudge. I mean, can you imagine a dementor actually telling Fudge something like, "ah, yeah....boss....about that....one of our boys kinda got a little excited...." (nervously shifting from "foot" to "foot") "I mean, I had to tell 'em that they'd get to kiss someone, 'cuz some of the boys, they were ready to walk off the job and go back to the wife and kids, and I had to tell 'em something to keep 'em happy, give 'em something to look forward to, y'know?" (nervous, whiny tone creeping into his voice now) "But, man, I promise you, boss, it ain't never gonna happen again. Once we get our kiss on this guy Black, we'll be cool for a while...." (sorry about the americanization of the dementor's speech, feel free to englishify it to fit into the HP universe :) Anyway....even though I haven't read PoA in a while, I've looked for the answer to this question every time I have in the past, and haven't yet been successful. Hope you can help.... Partha From CindyJ2 at cox.net Wed Feb 18 06:24:41 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:24:41 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secret Agent!Snape [Was "a question"] References: Message-ID: <015001c3f5e7$e486b5f0$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91176 Jim wrote-- ----- Someone suggested he may have a relationship with someone like Narcissa Malfoy (a relative, after all) who is giving him information. I've often wondered whether Snape was married to a DE. After all, didn't JRK say that some of the staff were married, and that would become important later? If he were, he'd have a strong witness for V that he did in fact support him. Cindy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elihufalk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 06:38:52 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:38:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 The Sorting Hat's New Song In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040218063852.17891.qmail@web21403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91177 --- Arya wrote: > I answered (stupidly): > >>3. What does the Hat do with a pureblood child who > is brave, cunning and > >>intelligent? Is this child a Hufflepuff? > > Er, you mean like Hermione? She went into > Gryffindor. > ----------- > IObvioulsy, I'm an idiot. She's soooo not a > pureblood. Duh. I *meant* to > bring up Sirius. I just had a brain lapse from > brain to keyboard. Er...yeah. > > And now that I think on it more...even James seems > to fit this bill. > > Percy, too (He's brave in a way because he rebelled > against his family, > cunning because he's only two years out of school > and shadowing the > Minister, ane intelligent because we all heard how > he got 12 OWLs, which > was superb. He just doesn't seem very wise....) She obviously was claiming that James and Sirius were in Gryffindor. But were MWPP in Gryffindor? I don't think so. I have no real proof, but I found varius indicatins in the Harry Potter books that they were in Slytherin: 1) Wormtail doesn't seem brave ("The Dark Lord... you have no idea... he has weapons you can't immagine... I was scared, Sirius" [PA19]. On the other hand, he always wanted to be with the strongest wizards around (first James and Sirius, later Voldemort). 2) Tom Riddle comments, about himself and Harry Potter: "We even look something alike" (refering to the likeness between Harry and Tom Riddle)[CS17]. Harry looks almost like his father. ("Harry... you look just like your father" [PA19]). In fact, the discription in OP28 says that the only differences between them, as of age 15-16, were eye color, shape of nose Harry's scar. The only description of Tom Riddle we get mentions only his black hair; this is mentioned a number of times about James. 3) Dumbledore says that 3 of 4 qualities which Harry had and Salazar Slytherin had are "resourcefulness - determination - a cirtain disregard for rules"[CS18] The last probably is an understatement; looking both at Slytherin, who placed the Chamber f Secrets, and at his heir, Voldemort, shows us that. What about James and his friends resourcefulness in finding the animagus transformation to join Lupin, determination in doing it ("Your father and Sirius here were the cleverest students in the school, and lucky they were, because the animagus transformation can go horribly wrong"[PA18]), and ignoring the laws which require them to register? 4) "Those cunning folk use any means to achive their ends"[SS7] In addition to the above, James had to buy a cloak of invisibily. He probably realised Dumbledore would figure out about it, so I think he came up with a "reason" - to steal food from the kitchens. 5) Snape noticed that Lupin was missing once a month; this is most likely if Snape was in the same house as MWPP. Snape was definitely a Slytherin [GF27]. 6) Are families sorted in to the same family? Hermione said no, and mentioned the Patil twins [GF12]. The Patil twins are probably identical twins ("they're identical" [GF12]). In the real world, identical twins tend to emphasize their different personalities; probably Parvati emphasized her Gryffindor-ness, and Padma emphasized her Ravenclaw-ness. All other examples of families where we know for sure what house varius members belonged to, it was always the same house: All the Weasleys were Gryffindors, the Malfoys were Slytherins etc. Even the Creeveys belong to the same house. If several Blacks were Slytherins, why not also Sirius? 7) MOre along the line of personality being emphisized or rejected... Harry had already rejected Voldemort's way when he was sorted. On the other hand, he considered his father "a source of comfort, of inspiration" [OP29]. Maybe the reason the hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin was that the Potters were a Slytherin family, and not Voldemort? 8) "There is not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slythern"[SS5]. Although this may be an exageration, I find it hard to believe that Hagrid would have told Harry Potter this if Black, in particular, wasn't. Elihu __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From naama_gat at hotmail.com Wed Feb 18 11:25:55 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:25:55 -0000 Subject: PoA Plot does not work. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: >Okay so the first time Harry is at the lake for the FIRST > time, he sees himself across the lake? How can that be? Follow my > thoughts, because the narration is told in a line. He goes down to > the lake to save Sirius and blacks out. Then he wakes up in the > hospital wing, and DD and Hermione tell him about the time turner > and he goes back in time for the FIRST time. Then still on the First time he goes to the lake and drives away the dementors. Look at this graph: > > > Sees himself > > Harry blacks out Goes to the hospital wing then goes back > in time and saves himself > > This is how it is told, but it could not have happened this way. How could Harry see himself, when he had not gone back in time yet? It is impossible. See how the there is introduction of another line >of time before he himself starts that line of time? JKR is not doing time lines here. She is doing classical timetravel - when you travel back in time, you travel to the very same time (or, the same time line) that happened already. It's weird talking about time as though it were a place, but it's the best way for me to think about it: when Harry returned to the past, he returned to the very same past he had occupied before. Which means, that there have ALWAYS been two Harrys and two Hermiones at that point in time. >Let me try and give and example. If I had a time turner here > say I wanted to go back in time and retake a test I took. Now the > first time I took the test I would not see myself, because I did not decide to go back in time before the action took place, or even if I did decide to do it, I would have to take the test before I >could go back in time and do it again. Well, if you had the kind of time turner that Harry and Hermione used, there would be two of you sitting there doing the test. One past to which to return. You're thinking in concepts (time lines) that have been introduced to solve the inherent paradox of time travel, exemplified by killing yourself in the past (the paradox being that, if you killed yourself in the past, then you wouldn't exist in the present, so there isn't a you to go back to the past and kill yourself - so, killing yourself in the past makes it logically impossible for you to kill yourself in the past). Naama From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 18 13:13:45 2004 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:13:45 -0000 Subject: Lockhart as Pullman? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > 2) whether Pullman's books seem to be something JKR might possibly > see as "dangerous" [one of Granger's assertions], because they are so > materialistic and because of his alleged personal aversion to > anything spiritual or otherworldly or afterlife-y or higher plane-y. > > Respectfully asked, > Siriusly Snapey Susan While I've read His Dark Materials and love the series deeply, I've never read John Granger's book (can't get it in the library). I think the "Philip Pullman = Gilderoy Lockhart analogy" argument came up in the OT-Chatter group a while ago, though. But from what I've read on the subject I've formed the opinion that Granger has his own beef with Pullman and HDM. If I'm to be brutal I think his analogy is unfounded (since JKR has never said that she finds Pullman a "dangerous" writer) and false (since I can't see that many similarities between Pullman and Lockhart). Haven't we all met Lockharts in our personal lives, just like we have met Malfoys, Skeeters and Umbridges? And do we therefore have to turn HP into a roman ? clef? There's been several occasions in British media where other popular authors have been portrayed as "anti-HP", Terry Pratchett and Helen Fielding among them. As long as it sells, truth value is a secondary question. Actually HDM deals with several themes that IMO are deeply spiritual - - innocence, experience, the nature of mind, good, evil, love, death and selflessness. Whether he succeeds seems a matter of controversy. Pullman doesn't hide his anticlericalism, that's true (he writes mainly in an alternate universe where John Calvin became Pope and moved the Holy See to Geneva, and where the dominant religion comes off as Gnosticism, so he isn't bashing just Catholics) and organised religion of any kind comes off in a bad light (though there's more political money in burning effigies of Harry Potter than in burning a series which no one has heard of.) Just like HP, HDM is about growing up and learning to think for yourself. Books like that are always potentially dangerous. Alshain From yodamarie78 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 13:26:32 2004 From: yodamarie78 at yahoo.com (Sara Dockery) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 05:26:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA Plot does not work. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040218132632.71443.qmail@web11704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91181 johnbowman19 wrote: "Okay so the first time Harry is at the lake for the FIRST time, he sees himself across the lake? How can that be? Follow my thoughts, because the narration is told in a line." It seems that JKR subscribes to a more circular theory of time, that it is not all one line that stretches out in front and behind us. In JKR's apparent theory of time travel you can't really change anything that happened in the past because it's already been done. This is very similar to the theory of Time Travel used in Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series. In that the protagonist attempts to change certain events that can't be avoided, she can't because it's all already happened. This is so hard to explain! In any case the reason Harry sees himself is that Time Travel Harry is happening parallel to Regular Harry, because (IMO) that's just how time travel works in the Potterverse, changing the past cannot affect the future because the past has already been changed. Yoda --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 13:42:51 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:42:51 -0000 Subject: "Fantastic Beasts" and "History of Quidditch" In-Reply-To: <28C1BE29.2460AA96.00170183@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, EnsTren at a... wrote: > In a message dated 2/17/2004 10:38:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, "justcarol67" writes: > > >Didn't Dumbledore say that it hadn't taken place for several hundred > >years? He seems to be reinstuting a long disused custom in the hope of > >uniting the three major wizarding schools in Europe. > > > > That's a very clever insight actually. I think once we finish the serries it will be nice to reread the books and pick up on all that we missed before. > > >Carol, who notices that we now have Meri, Neri, and Nemi and is > >waiting for Ori, Dori, and Nori > > > > I can change my name to Nesme if you want, it's pronounced the same way (Nem-E) > > Nemi/Nesme What I meant, and didn't make clear, in my original post is that 'traditionally' the TWT takes place every five years, sort of like the Olympics. But the tournament had not been held for quite some time due to, I believe, elevated death counts. Meri - happy to be included in the dwarf names, but would really rather be Legolas' gorgeous elf-girlfriend From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 14:21:20 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:21:20 -0000 Subject: PoA Plot does not work. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: > Hey all > After re-reading PoA, something occurred to me. Okay we all > know about the time-tuner and how it allowed Harry to rescue Sirius. > There is something about the order of events that does not make > sense. Okay so the first time Harry is at the lake for the FIRST > time, he sees himself across the lake? How can that be? Follow my > thoughts, because the narration is told in a line. He goes down to > the lake to save Sirius and blacks out. Then he wakes up in the > hospital wing, and DD and Hermione tell him about the time turner > and he goes back in time for the FIRST time. Then still on the First > time he goes to the lake and drives away the dementors. Look at this > graph: > > > Sees himself > > Harry blacks out Goes to the hospital wing then goes back > in time and saves himself > > This is how it is told, but it could not have happened this way. How > could Harry see himself, when he had not gone back in time yet? It > is impossible. See how the there is introduction of another line of > time before he himself starts that line of time? He should not have > been there to save himself the first time because he had not gone > back into yet. (snip the rest) Ginger here: I usually leave the time travel intracacies to others, but the basics, I understand. Let's set it in the mundane world. You and I are standing on a street. The time is 7:00. You walk into the grocery store. From 7:00 to 7:20, you decide which loaf of bread you want. From 7:20 to 7:40, you decide on a package of bologna. >From 7:40 to 8:00, you pick out a brick of cheese. You pay and come back to me. I time-turn you back one hour. You go into the library and read for an hour, checking your watch occasionally. You come out at 8:00. Now, while you were in the library, where were your groceries? Were they with me on the street? No. They were in the store. You had not bought them yet. If you checked your watch at 7:24, you (the first you) would have your bread in hand and would be looking at the bologna. No one could have bought cheese you were going to bring out of the store at that time, or you wouldn't buy that brick of cheese. It's still in the future, but since we know which brick it will be, that will be the brick you choose. When you return from the library, the groceries will be there with me, but (assuming you (#2) missed seeing the time-turn ceremony,) they would have been there for only a bit. I would have only been there alone for one hour. During that hour, you would have been in the store and in the library at the same time. Can you say that you were not in the library at 7:45 as you had not been time-turned yet? No, you were there. But yes, you had not yet been time-turned. That happened at 8:00. The confusion lies in the fact that we only see things from the past as effecting the future, and not things from the future effecting the past. Does this help? I hope so! best wishes, and a couple of ibuprofin, Ginger From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Feb 18 14:34:16 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:34:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91184 This chapter sets the stage for the division of loyalty taking place in the Wizard World. With the battle heating up between Dumbledore/Harry vs. Fudge/ The Daily Prophet, everyone seems to be choosing sides. Harry is frustrated to discover that even fellow Gryffindors like Seamus and Lavender don't believe his story that Lord Voldemort returned. Ron, Hermione and Neville remain steadfast in their support, reminding Harry of this when he lashes out at them. Suddenly, Hermione notices a sign in the Common Room recruiting students for `virtually painless jobs' and attempts to enlist Ron to stop Fred and George. Ever idealistic, Hermione misses the obvious point that prefects have had little impact on Fred and George's behavior in the past, and little brother Ron has even less influence! But Hermione's narrative voice takes an important turn here, as she reminds us of Dumbledore's words at the end of last year's feast regarding You-Know-Who: "His gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust " Hermione's analysis that the in- fighting has already started, despite Dumbledore's words and the Sorting Hat's warning to `stand together,' is ominous foreshadowing for the literal and symbolic battles ahead. Over breakfast, Fred and George seem undisturbed by the looming war and regale the Trio with tales of fifth-year OWL woes, and how their concoctions like Nosebleed Nougat and Skiving Snackboxes are really a *service* to all the students. We find out that Fred and George considered not returning to Hogwarts for NEWT year, but instead decided to make the best of it after Percy turned out to be the `world's biggest prat'. As Fred and George depart for classes, Hermione and Ron debate how the twins could afford to open a joke shop; Harry steers the conversation to a safer topic. CLASSES History of Magic proceeds in the usual fashion?Harry tunes out what is sure to be important information about the Giant Wars and Hermione dutifully takes notes. During break, a solo Cho approaches Harry for the second time in two days, a circumstance Harry points out is `most unusual'. Ron quickly interrupts the burgeoning conversation when he notices Cho's Tornados badge and proceeds to cross-examine her about her loyalty to the Quidditch team. The scene ends with Hermione rounding on Ron after Cho leaves, and Harry stuck as usual between his best friends' bickering. POTIONS Snape starts class by telling the students his expectations for OWL year, the `high-pass level' he's come to expect from fifth years. We see Neville once again intimidated by Snape's words and eye-contact, and Hary and Snape exchanging glares. Harry hopes this will be his last year of Potions. Just as the Trio expected, Snape sets a `fiddly' potion for the first class of the year, the Draught of Peace. The potion is described as calming and soothing if made properly, but can result in a heavy and possibly irreversible sleep if not. Harry doesn't make the potion correctly and even though he is not the only one, Snape publicly points out Harry's mistake, cleans his cauldron with `Evanesco' and, Harry suspects, gives him zero marks for the day. While Harry is still seething about Snape's unfairness, Ron and Hermione start bickering again over lunch, debating Snape's true loyalty. Harry finally has enough and tells them to `shut-up', then heads to Divination alone. DIVINATION Harry has time to calm down before Trelawney's class starts, and accepts Ron's announcement that he and Hermione have stopped fighting. Ron reminds Harry again that they are on his side, so why is he taking his anger out on them? Harry, unsure why he's exploding at his best friends, feels both annoyed at R/H and ashamed of his own actions. Trelawney announces their first lesson?-dream interpretation. Harry and Ron are predictably glum about this new phase of Divination, Harry because of all the recent dream activity he wants to keep a secret from everyone. Interestingly enough, Ron's dream (prediction?) is about playing Quidditch. DEFENSE AGAINST THE DARK ARTS Umbridge, the only unknown quantity, finally appears in the last class of the long day. The class quickly sees through Umbridge's attempt to teach them theory over practical defense strategies, and erupts into questions and concerns over the new direction the DADA classes are taking. Umbridge plays a game of cat-and-mouse with the students, attempting to ignore and circumvent their questions. Finally, after Harry frankly states he saw Lord Voldemort and Umbridge retorts that Harry is repeating lies, we see the true reason for Umbridge's appearance at Hogwarts?to cement the Ministry's presence at the school and prevent Dumbledore from further `influencing' the students. Umbridge tells the class that the Ministry of Magic `guarantees you are not in danger from any Dark Wizard' before assigning Harry detention and sending him to McGonagall. MCGONAGALL'S OFFICE Harry proceeds to McGonagall's office with a pink, magically-sealed parchment from Umbridge. He is briefly waylaid by Peeves, who teases Harry about being a `crackpot'. Harry explodes once again, fourth time for the day, and brings McGonagall running from her office. Harry expects McGonagall to be furious with him after reading Umbridge's note, but instead, McGonagall asks him a few questions and offers him a biscuit and a seat. After contemplating for a moment, McGonagall becomes serious, almost anxious, and reminds Harry that misbehavior in Umbridge's class could cost him more than a few detentions. When Harry starts to justify his behavior, McGonagall's anger flares: "Do you really think this is about truth or lies? It's about keeping your head down and your temper under control!" (U.S. p. 249). McGonagall sees that Harry has only a vague understanding of what the Ministry is doing at Hogwarts, and only then because Hermione interpreted Umbridge's speech for him. McGonagall sniffs and sends Harry on his way. QUESTIONS: 1) In COS when many students avoided Harry because he was the presumed Heir of Slytherin, Harry turned to Ron and Hermione for support and encouragement. In OOTP when the same situation arises, Harry is pushing everyone away including his best friends. Is this a temporary crack in the relationship of the Trio, or is it the beginning of a more permanent break in the relationships? 2) Fred and George rarely talk about the hot political climate in the WW once they leave Grimmauld Place. Should we take at face-value that their part in the War will be to provide humor for the over- stressed WW? Could they also be doing other research that might assist the Order at a later date? 3) When the Trio discuss future career options over breakfast, what is Hermione proposing when she suggests taking S.P.E.W further? 4) The Draught of Peace can cause an irreversible sleep, but apparently not death. The use of this potion is opposite of the effects of the Befuddlement Draught mentioned in a later chapter. Coincidence? Red Herring? 5) Snape singles out Harry once again in Potions, making much of Harry's mistake. It crossed my mind that Snape, while bullying Harry, might also be trying to make certain Harry knows how to make this particular potion. Any thoughts? 6) Umbridge makes much of the `lies' told to the students, but never confronts Harry that he started the rumor. Why? 7) Why does McGonagall warn Harry that misbehavior is Umbridge's class will cost more than a few detentions? What does she think he will lose? NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67817 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85829 as well as "OotP Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 14:35:21 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:35:21 -0000 Subject: PoA Plot does not work. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91185 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: > Hey all > After re-reading PoA, something occurred to me. Okay we all > know about the time-tuner and how it allowed Harry to rescue Sirius. > There is something about the order of events that does not make > sense. (snipping all that makes no sense;)) Ginger again: I was going to include this before, but forgot where it was and had to look it up. If you go to the Harry Potter Lexicon, to the Time Lines section, listed as "end of PoA", there is a chart with explanation by Hollydaze, which shows how it all worked out. Quite nicely done, may I add. It should solve at least some of your questions. Ginger. Time travel gives me a headache, or gave me one, or will give me one, depending on when the heck I am now. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Feb 18 15:10:22 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:10:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" Harry's mistake. It crossed my mind that Snape, while bullying > Harry, might also be trying to make certain Harry knows how to make > this particular potion. Any thoughts? Snape frequently does this. It will happen again when Umbridge observes the class later on. While his approach is anything but encouraging, he makes sure Harry knows what the mistake was. Harry assumes he received a zero, but we don't know that. Just as we don't know what grades the other potions earned. It really wouldn't matter if he did, since the O.W.L.S. and N.E.W.T.S. are more important than class grades. At the same time Snape's bullying teaches Harry the potion, but makes Harry look inept to those Slytherin students who might be talking about Potter to their Death Eater parents. So Death Eaters may have the idea that Potter is no good at potions and that Snape really dislikes him. Potioncat From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 15:11:46 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:11:46 -0000 Subject: How will Harry win in the end? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote: > I've been reading through the second world war thread and wanted to > gather my thoughts on this end game that will play out over the next > 2 books. Harry has been set up with the prophesy and vague clues to > what must happen at the end of the septology - either he or LV must > die. > > The question I've been pondering is that if Harry will win, what > weapon will he use to defeat LV? Will he kill LV with the AK curse? > I don't think so - it doesn't seem right that Harry would use an > unforgivable curse that must be backed by hatred and evil to work. > So then, what will he use? > > In the end-game of OOP, Dumbledore tells Harry that his emotions are > his biggest strengh and that there is a room in the department of > mysteries that contains the power Harry has in huge quantities. To > me this points to a new weapon that Harry must learn to harness over > the next 2 books to be victorious. What will that be? We do have > some clues... > > Harry's eyes will play a part. They come from his mother who was > obviously full of love and goodness as we witnessed in the Pensieve > scene with Snape and the fact that she died to save him. > > We have seen throughout the books that Harry gains courage from the > Phoenix song. (ok this sounds sappy) This is very similar, in my > mind to the strength Harry gains from his friends and "family" > (Weasley's, Lupin, Hermione, etc...). What would be the strength he > would gain from true love (this sounds like the Princess Bride)? > > I think that for Harry to win, he will need to fashion a new weapon > made up of the emotions that LV cannot stand. DD also told LV during > their battle that there are things worse than death. Then later said > that LV hated anything to do with love/emotions. Is that the key to > the weapon that will kill him? I think so. > > I think the clues are pointing to 2 things - the second world war > which must be won by the Order and Harry's personal battle with LV. > I'm not sure that all the clues we're getting are going to the same > thing. For example, Bill Weasley's future...does it lie on the same > path as the door in the Department of Mysteries? I think they're > separate things. > > Thoughts? > Kristen LizVega here: I agree with the theory that Harry will not use AK to kill LV, partly because, like you said, I don't think he'll be able to harness the joy in killing that is required to perform the spell. But, I also don't think that Harry and LV will use wands during their battle. We saw in GOF what happens when their wands meet- if wands are required, perhaps one of them will use someone else's wand. True, wizards don't receive the best results when using another's wand, but as powerful as LV and Harry (Will become)are, it's an option. I also agree that the key to defeating LV for good is the emotion that Harry has in huge quantities that DD referred to, some say it's love, but I don't think so. It seems like a cop-out, and horribly obvious, not jo's style at all. I've always wondered whether its' the 'essence' of magic. The very thing that connects Harry to the wizarding world, and all its' inhabitants. As far as the order needing to win in addition to Harry defeating LV, I think the two work interdependent of each other. If Harry defeats LV, then all of his misguided psycho followers will just whither back into the wood work, like they did before. From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 15:22:15 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:22:15 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91188 I'm sure it's been discussed, but I was wondering about two things: 1. Does anyone have information about the chat that is supposed to be taking place with Jo next month? And, does HPforGrownups get to ask any questions? 2. In GOF-The Riddle House- LV tells Wormtail that he needs to commit one more murder, and his path to Harry Potter will be complete. He's not talking about Bertha Jorkins, that already happened when this scene took place. I always assumed he meant Moody, because LV told Wormy that his 'faithful' servant would be there to help him. But, it was obvious from Crouch's veritaserum induced confession that LV didn't intend to kill Moody because he needed him alive for the polyjuice potion. Then I thought that he meant Crouch Sr., because that's where LV and Wormy went after the Riddle House- I assume. But, Crouch Sr. was placed under the imperius curse, not killed. What leaves me most confunded is the fact that LV said that no one would know this person was dead, didn't he? Did this get resolved at all? If not, it makes me wonder if someone else was murdered, but no one knew about it, perhaps someone's been using polyjuice again? If LV wasn't referring to Moody or Crouch Sr., then who was he talking about? I guess, if the plan worked, we wouldn't know about it, would we? It also makes me wonder who was acting fishy in OOP- Wormtail was nowhere to be seen in the whole book, where was he? Thughts? From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 18 15:26:18 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:26:18 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91189 Jen asked: > 5) Snape singles out Harry once again in Potions, making much of > Harry's mistake. It crossed my mind that Snape, while bullying > Harry, might also be trying to make certain Harry knows how to make > this particular potion. Any thoughts? Siriusly Snapey Susan: Absolutely! Same as in SS/PS when Snape throws those first three questions at Harry in their very first class. I think he is trying to make the incidents *memorable* so that Harry will never forget the humiliation...and hence, hopefully, never forget the CONTENT of the lessons as well. Jen asked: > 7) Why does McGonagall warn Harry that misbehavior is Umbridge's > class will cost more than a few detentions? What does she think he > will lose? > Siriusly Snapey Susan: I think she could mean any number of things. That Harry came close to being in big trouble before the school year even began. Has he forgotten so quickly? Fudge would love an excuse to bring him back to the MoM for another trial and/or to kick him out of Hogwarts. She might be thinking ahead to the possibility that Dumbledore is likely to get involved in defending Harry, which could have consequences for his ability to stay at Hogwarts. She might also be thinking about the need for keeping knowledge of the Order under wraps. Other things? Siriusly Snapey Susan From CoyotesChild at charter.net Wed Feb 18 15:39:52 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:39:52 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart as Pullman? CLARIFICATION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c3f635$779ad040$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 91190 > > Siriusly Snapey Susan again: > Before this goes any further, I'd like to clarify. What Granger was > suggesting is that Gilderoy is based on PHILIP PULLMAN himself, not > on one of Pullman's characters [Sally Lockhart or any other]. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan > Iggy here: That's what I thought you meant... I can't speak in having met Pullman himself, but I wouldn't be amazed at all. Having met a number of authors (including Katherine Kerr and her husband at their home... she was really cool.) and having lived with a writer as a housemate for two years (and friend for more) I can say that the authors I have met tend to be either very nice and easygoing, or arrogant, condescending, and a little too full of themselves. >From what I have heard of a number of other authors from my friend and former housemate, who has met a number of them at conventions and publisher meetings, my impression is pretty accurate of the field as a whole. (One of the hardest things to do, apparently, is keep a realistic self image when you're popular for a long time. Having people gush over you and your writing often goes to one's head... for some much earlier than others. It's one of the reasons I am pretty much against any author who "farms out" their name. It's the ultimate in conceit for a writer, IMHO. Mercedes Lackey and Piers Anthony are two of the biggest offenders in this practice.) The funny thing is, I can see my former housemate being very much like Lockhart in personality if he ever strikes it big. (He's already got some of the outward personality down pat, if not the inner.) Iggy McSnurd From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 15:53:19 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:53:19 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91191 > QUESTIONS: > > 1) In COS when many students avoided Harry because he was the > presumed Heir of Slytherin, Harry turned to Ron and Hermione for > support and encouragement. In OOTP when the same situation arises, > Harry is pushing everyone away including his best friends. Is this a > temporary crack in the relationship of the Trio, or is it the > beginning of a more permanent break in the relationships? Annemehr: I have to wonder about an option C: Voldemort's talent for spreading discord and enmity that Dumbledore warned about. IMO we see it all over this book. I just wonder if we'll find that JKR will objectify it as some sort of dark magic that Voldemort is doing, or if it's really just the fact that, when faced with a dangerous and evil situation, segments of society will naturally begin to work at cross purposes which creates discord that spreads and grows. If it turns out to be Voldemort magic, it's hard to imagine what he could be doing to affect all of Britain, but on the other hand, he could just concentrate on the MoM, the Daily Prophet, and Hogwarts and Hogsmeade. Oh, and Diagon Alley maybe. The fact that there could be such magic is hinted at by the Befuddlement Draught Harry reads about -- hey, maybe they're putting it in the water supply? ;-) In any case, I don't think there will ever be a permanent breakdown of the Trio, but that's just a feeling, really. > 5) Snape singles out Harry once again in Potions, making much of > Harry's mistake. It crossed my mind that Snape, while bullying > Harry, might also be trying to make certain Harry knows how to make > this particular potion. Any thoughts? Annemehr: Because Snape does this pretty much all year as far as I can recall, I don't think it's about that particular potion. However, I think you have a really good point. If Harry figures he's going to get a zero for anything less than a perfect potion sample, it would be in his stubborn nature to try and make a potion Snape couldn't pull that trick with. Snape may be trying to ensure that Harry works harder than he would if he just thought he could content himself with "getting by." Snape may also be trying to get Harry to learn enough to get that Outstanding potions OWL because he knows he needs to continue the class. > > 7) Why does McGonagall warn Harry that misbehavior is Umbridge's > class will cost more than a few detentions? What does she think he > will lose? I'm not sure if she's thinking anything in particular, but I'm reminded of that nasty smile Umbridge is wearing as she watches Harry finish a very successful DADA OWL complete with corporeal patronus. I'm betting Harry gets a nasty shock when he receives his OWL results because Umbridge has already set some plan in motion. Even if Dumbledore gets it all cleared up, for the sake of the story there'll have to be some consequences; I wonder what they could be? Thanks, Jen, I've had some interesting new thoughts, especially about Snape! Annemehr From grannybat at hotmail.com Wed Feb 18 16:22:40 2004 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:22:40 -0000 Subject: Lockhart as Pullman? (Veering Off-Topic, then back On) In-Reply-To: <000001c3f635$779ad040$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91192 > > Siriusly Snapey Susan again: > > What Granger was > > suggesting is that Gilderoy is based on PHILIP PULLMAN himself, > > not on one of Pullman's characters > > Iggy here: > Having met a number of authors ... I can say that > the authors I have met tend to be either very nice and easygoing, or > arrogant, condescending, and a little too full of themselves. > >...(One of the hardest things to do, apparently, is keep a > realistic self image when you're popular for a long time. Having > people gush over you and your writing often goes to one's head... > for some much earlier than others. Not intending to sound critical, but it's not just writers who fall prey to this problem. Actors, painters, film directors--anybody who's experienced commercial and/or critical success in the arts is vulnerable to this form egotism. It runs rampant in the worlds of science and business, too. I see the point this thread is making, yes. If JKR is puncturing another writer's swollen head, then her criticism is particularly sharp because Lockhart turns out to be practicing a form of plagiarism--if the adventures in his books aren't his own, then the words probably aren't, either. (Does he Obliviate his ghost-writer after each book is finished? I wonder.) I suspect JKR wrote Lockhart not just as a symbol for Harry, but for herself. Perhaps she thinks of golden Gilderoy whenever she fears that she's slipping into the personality of The Well-Praised, Well- Paid Author. Grannybat who thinks JKR is very grounded From naama_gat at hotmail.com Wed Feb 18 17:04:05 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:04:05 -0000 Subject: Harry as Martyr Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91193 Reading Jen's chapter summary made me think of interesting parallels between Harry and the early Christian martyrs (including Jesus himself). First, a quote from www.newadvent.org/cathen: "The Greek word martus signifies a witness who testifies to a fact of which he has knowledge from personal observation. .. the Apostles were "witnesses" of all that they had observed in the public life of Christ, as well as of all they had learned from His teaching.. [But] The disciples of Christ were no ordinary witnesses such as those who gave testimony in a court of justice. These latter ran no risk in bearing testimony to facts that came under their observation, whereas the witnesses of Christ were brought face to face daily, from the beginning of their apostolate, with the possibility of incurring severe punishment and even death itself. ... Thus, within the lifetime of the Apostles, the term martus came to be used in the sense of a witness who at any time might be called upon to deny what he testified to, under penalty of death." Harry is in exactly the same position vis a vis almost the entire WW for that whole year. He is literaly a witness (and the only one) to Voldemort's return, and throughout the book he is martyred because of his insistence to continue to bear witness. In the wider circle of the WW, he is pilloried by the media, and reviled by almost everybody. In the narrower circle of Hogwarts, people distance themselves from him, view him with suspicion or make fun of him. Even close friends of his (Seamus) turn against him. He is, in short, treated with hostility by most of the people around him. The apex of his martyrdom is Umbridge, of course. It's here where the specifically Christian-martyr-like aspects come to the fore. Umbridge punishes Harry for telling that Voldemort has arisen, and she punishes him by making him cut his own flesh with *words.* Like the original martyrs, Harry could stop the torture by recanting his story, but he doesn't. He continues to suffer, and it's made clear that in a way, he seeks this confrontation, this test to his endurance. So the torture continues. Eventually, the words remain engraved on his flesh. Like the stigmata, and with it, the Christian theme of the truth (or Word) engraved and displayed on the wounded, mutilated body of the martyr (originally, Christ). Of course, Harry's martyrdom is perverse, since he is a witness to the rise, not of the Good, but of Evil. He tries to persuade people to believe, not that their salvation, but their doom, is at hand. In this, Harry is closer to the more modern humanist hero - the artist, or the scientist - attempting to reveal unpalatable truths to a hostile humanity. Naama, who wonders whether this has been brought up before? From CoyotesChild at charter.net Wed Feb 18 17:17:19 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:17:19 -0600 Subject: FILK: Secret Agent Snape Message-ID: <000201c3f643$185a2af0$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 91194 Iggy here: Ok, I wanted to get to this one before anyone else got the idea... *grin* Sorry all, but this is not dedicated to anyone on the list, rather it's in honor of *MY* favorite Secret Agent of all time, James Bond. Iggy McSnurd "Secret Agent Snape" (To the tune of "Secret Agent Man" by Johnny Rivers) There's a wizard who leads a life of danger To every kid he teaches, he stays a stranger. With every lie he states, another chance he takes Odds are he won't live to teach tomorrow Secret agent Snape Secret agent Snape You're giving information, But who's side are you on? Beware the different faces that you find Any face can hide an evil mind Be careful what you say, you'll give yourself away Odds are you won't live to teach tomorrow. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Feb 18 17:24:00 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:24:00 -0000 Subject: PoA Plot does not work. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91195 John asked: > >This is how it is told, but it could not have happened this way. How could Harry see himself, when he had not gone back in time yet? It is impossible. See how the there is introduction of another line of time before he himself starts that line of time? << Well, I usually avoid time turner threads, but I'll take a stab at it. In the magical universe, time is not linear -- it's only perceived that way. Think of pearls on a string. An ant crawling along the string can only go from one pearl to the next and cannot affect any pearl except the one he's passing through, but a human being could touch several pearls in several places at once. That's what the time turner does--it affects events at the point in time where it's used *and* also in the past. So , suppose there's an ant crawling along the string. There's a red pearl, a blue pearl, a green one. --R==B==G-- When one of the ants gets to the green pearl, it uses a time turner. The time turner creates another string and inserts it into the necklace at the red pearl--and this is the tricky part--at the point in time when our ant was passing through it. From the point of view of our ant, there never was a time when there weren't multiple strands. The time turner also moves future ant, the one who used the time turner, to the point where the split was created and drops him onto the "new" strand. Both ants then move through the pearls on independent courses, the second ant being very careful not to make anything happen that couldn't have happened during its first journey through the pearls. If things go wrong, if, say, the second ant kills the first one or vice versa, a paradox is created and --- well, we don't know what happens then, but it's not good. Probably the Ministry of Magic has a Paradox Reversal Squad. But the important thing is that, in the Potterverse, it seems that a paradox does not exist until it is observed. The time turner seems to do its best to "anchor" the endpoints, so that if you don't *intend* to allow a paradox to be observed, no paradox will be created. So there never was a time when Buckbeak was executed or the Dementors kissed Harry. Although Hermione *could* have used the Time Turner to go back and take Charms class after her future self observed that she had missed it, that would have created a paradox, and she would have been in trouble with the Ministry. That's my theory any way. Now have a nice cup of tea and forget about it...that's what I'm going to do . Pippin From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 17:49:29 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:49:29 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black theory...not my own! And question about the dead Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91196 I was just over at the New Clues discussion on Mugglenet and found an interesting theory. The Quibbler article in OOP states that Stubby Boardman is actually Sirius Black, but there are certain things that would indicate that it's actually Regulus that the woman is referring to: If Sirius and Regulus are brothers then it would make sense that they look alike. Also, the time line, Regulus was killed fifteen years ago, according to Sirius. The woman states that she's known him, or something like that, for fifteen years. Sirius says that he doesn't think that LV killed him himself, does he say who he thinks did kill him? Did he say anything about a body? Speaking of bodies, do we know anything about the Wizarding World's customs for disposing of the dead? I can't think of one dead person, and I mean a witch or wizard in this case, that we know where their bodies are. Can anyone think of anything on this? If Regulus is actully alive, how does that affect Harry? Is Regulus a good guy or a bad guy? I don't know why this matters, but it was mentioned for a reason, i think! LizVega From rzl46 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 18:29:58 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:29:58 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black theory...not my own! And question about the dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91197 > Speaking of bodies, do we know anything about the Wizarding World's > customs for disposing of the dead? I can't think of one dead person, > and I mean a witch or wizard in this case, that we know where their > bodies are. Can anyone think of anything on this? > > LizVega I don't have my books with me, but I believe that we are told that Moody!Crouch transfigured his father's body into a bone and buried it near Hagrid's hut. I also remember Moody!Crouch saying that his mother continued taking polyjuice potion and was buried still looking like him. Father!Crouch faked his wife's death and that grave is empty. I think burial is at least one of the accepted methods of disposing of a magical body. Which begs the question, why hasn't Harry asked where his parents are buried? MaggieB From senderellabrat at aol.com Wed Feb 18 18:57:03 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:57:03 -0000 Subject: 2 Maddening Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91198 Ok... These two questions have really really bugged me constantly. #1- In SS, *why* did Hermione lie to McGonagall and say she read about the trolls and thought she could take them on? What was wrong with telling her the truth? "Professor, I was upset today and hid out in the bathrooms. I didn't know about the trolls so Harry and Ron came to find me and make sure I was safe. Turns out I wasn't." I don't think McGonagall would've gotten too upset over that. It's not like a matter of covering for Ron & Harry because technically the only thing they did wrong was hurt Hermione's feelings that day. #2- WHY WHY WHY didn't Harry say anything about that digusting, revolting, macabre quill of Professor Toads and the detentions? Why didn't he go see McGonagall or ANYONE? I understand the fact that he wanted to tough it out and not give Professor Toad the satisfaction of knowing he told someone, but COME ON. There's certain times when you've got to draw the line instead of being a stubborn prat! If anyone has any input on this, PLEASE tell me! These 2 things drive me insane. Insane Sen From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Feb 18 19:19:07 2004 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:19:07 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] 2 Maddening Questions Message-ID: <65.22aea20a.2d6514ab@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91199 Insane Sen: > Ok... These two questions have really really bugged me constantly. > > #1- In SS, *why* did Hermione lie to McGonagall and say she read > about the trolls and thought she could take them on? What was wrong > with telling her the truth? "Professor, I was upset today and hid out > in the bathrooms. I didn't know about the trolls so Harry and Ron > came to find me and make sure I was safe. Turns out I wasn't." I > don't think McGonagall would've gotten too upset over that. It's not > like a matter of covering for Ron &Harry because technically the > only thing they did wrong was hurt Hermione's feelings that day. Cassie (me): This has bugged me a bit too. I think it was a matter of not wanting the teachers in on their personal live. I imagine Hermione didn't feel comfortable enough to tell them she was upset. She was saving her own face as well as Harry and Ron. Though, even if she didn't want to tell the truth I can think of a better lie that would not have lost them any house points. "I had to use the bathroom." and that's not entirely a lie. She just leaves out the reason she had to go to the bathroom. > > #2- WHY WHY WHY didn't Harry say anything about that digusting, > revolting, macabre quill of Professor Toads and the detentions? Why > didn't he go see McGonagall or ANYONE? I understand the fact that he > wanted to tough it out and not give Professor Toad the satisfaction > of knowing he told someone, but COME ON. There's certain times when > you've got to draw the line instead of being a stubborn prat! Cassie (me): I'm going to find a fabulous quote about pride one day and wish I had known it for this post. You just watch. Since we can only look so far into the minds of the characters I can only speculate *why*. Though it brings up an interesting thought: Harry never turns to an adult for help. Except for Sirius, of course. Perhaps he constantly wants to prove himself--even to himself. Maybe, even though he hates all this fame and attention he at least wants their to be a good reason besides a stupid scar for getting it. He's not about to show Umbridge weakness. > > If anyone has any input on this, PLEASE tell me! These 2 things drive > me insane. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Feb 18 19:20:45 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:20:45 -0000 Subject: 2 Maddening Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91200 wrote: > Ok... These two questions have really really bugged me constantly. > > #1- In SS, *why* did Hermione lie to McGonagall and say she read > about the trolls and thought she could take them on? >snip< > #2- WHY WHY WHY didn't Harry say anything about that digusting, > revolting, macabre quill of Professor Toads and the detentions? >snip< For the first, I think Hermione wanted to completely take the blame. If she'd said she was upset, McGonagall would have asked why and to a certain extent could have been blamed the boys for causing Hermione to be there in the first place. By taking on the blame, she cleared them. Just think, this led to the friendship. It's been suggested that without friends,Hermione could have ended up like Snape! (Oops, that's a different thread.) As for the second, I think he was mad at everyone anyway and McGonagall hadn't been very sympathetic the previous time he'd gotten in trouble with Umbridge. So he stuck it out. Punishments at this school are pretty bad and no one complains: spending the night in the forest, cleaning bed pans, detentions that go from 8 p.m. till midnight. Someone else had to use the quill too, but doesn't seem to have complained either. I wonder what would have happened? One thing I've noticed is that no genuine Hogwarts teacher uses magic as punishment. Not even Snape. Potioncat From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 18 19:23:24 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:23:24 -0000 Subject: 2 Maddening Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theultimatesen" wrote: > > #2- WHY WHY WHY didn't Harry say anything about that digusting, > revolting, macabre quill of Professor Toads and the detentions? Why > didn't he go see McGonagall or ANYONE? I understand the fact that he > wanted to tough it out and not give Professor Toad the satisfaction > of knowing he told someone, but COME ON. There's certain times when > you've got to draw the line instead of being a stubborn prat! > > If anyone has any input on this, PLEASE tell me! > Insane Sen Siriusly Snapey Susan now: I think Harry has a habit of both this kind of NOT telling AND not asking the questions we want him to ask. I imagine it has a lot to do w/ old habits dying hard. "Don't ask questions!" was a constant refrain in the Dursley household, was it not? Harry was to stay quiet, in his room, pretending not to exist. Harry surely learned during those years to rely on himself first & foremost, and even though he has Ron, Hermione, DD, McGonagall, Neville, Ginny--any number of people--who WANT to help him now, I think his first tendency is still to go it alone. "*I* have to fix this", "*I* have to handle this", "This is *MY* problem", etc. Harry's unwillingness/inability to report things, to ask questions, and his tendency to lose his temper JUST when we wanted to hear what was coming next are things that drive us readers batty...AND pave the way for JKR to keep some of her best secrets for a little while longer. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 19:25:09 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:25:09 -0000 Subject: How did Fudge/Snape know about Dementors attacking HP in PoA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91202 "Partha Mukhopadhyay" wrote: > Greetings, folks, how go the lives? Carol: Wotcher, Partha! All righ'? > My question is this: > Near the end of PoA, how, if Snape was knocked out when the > dementors went after Harry, did he, and/or Fudge know that the > dementors had tried to Kiss Harry? Carol: Sorry, no answers, just a similar question: How did Snape in OoP knew that Harry and Hermione had gone into the forest with Umbridge? He leaves Umbridge's office (having refused to give her Veritaserum and correctly interpreted Harry's message about Padfoot) to check on Sirius and finds him safe in Grimmauld Place. He apparently leaves the six DA members in the hands of Umbridge and her Inquisitorial squad, pausing only to tell Crabbe to stop suffocating Neville--a delightful example of Snape's helping Harry and company without blowing his cover). The next thing we know that he does is contact the Order at headquarters (Sirius is no longer alone with Kreacher at this point) to tell them that Harry has not returned from the forest and must be trying to get to the DoM. So he sends them to the rescue and tells Sirius to wait for Dumbledore, who is on his way. Obviously he has been in contact with Dumbledore as well as the Order, but that doesn't explain how he knows that Harry et al. are in the forest. Also, how did Ron, Neville, Ginny, and Luna escape? They were gagged and IIRC bound and they were guarded by the Inquisitorial Squad. How could they have recovered their wands (or pulled them out of their pockets) to cast those hexes on Draco, Millicent, and company? My theory is that Snape hid himself in the hallway after contacting Sirius and Dumbledore, saw Umbridge and HH leave the office and followed them to the forest, waiting for them to return, and then went back to contact first Dumbledore and then the Order (who must have been summoned by Sirius after Snape first checked on him). That would account for his being able to tell them that DD was on his way and would give him a reason for telling Sirius to stay behind. But if I'm right that he followed HH and Umbridge to the forest (the only way I can account for his knowing that) how did Ron and friends escape without his help? Carol, who also wonders how Kreacher knew when to injure Buckbeak From pulpficlet at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 18:10:45 2004 From: pulpficlet at yahoo.com (pulpficlet) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:10:45 -0000 Subject: PoA Plot does not work. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91203 Pippin wrote: > If things go wrong, if, say, the second ant kills the first one >or vice versa, a paradox is created and --- well, we don't know what > happens then, but it's not good. Probably the Ministry of Magic > has a Paradox Reversal Squad. But the important thing is that, in > the Potterverse, it seems that a paradox does not exist until it is > observed. The time turner seems to do its best to "anchor" the > endpoints, so that if you don't *intend* to allow a paradox to be > observed, no paradox will be created. That was a great explanation, Pippin. The timeturner stuff has always troubled me quite a bit, so now I can always think of ants. ::g:: Can you help me with another timeturner problem I have? In the MoM scene in OotP, a whole rack of timeturners breaks and then repairs itself. Doesn't this create a "paradox" under your approach? Also, doesn't that scene suggest that timeturners have a "life" of their own? There's not a person there to knock the shelf over again and again, so the timeturners themselves must be doing this. Can they have an element of knowlege or something? Or maybe it's all just magic! ::g:: Paula From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Feb 18 19:43:13 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:43:13 -0000 Subject: 2 Maddening Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91204 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theultimatesen" wrote: > Ok... These two questions have really really bugged me constantly. > > #1- In SS, *why* did Hermione lie to McGonagall and say she read > about the trolls and thought she could take them on? What was wrong > with telling her the truth? "Professor, I was upset today and hid out > in the bathrooms. I didn't know about the trolls so Harry and Ron > came to find me and make sure I was safe. Turns out I wasn't." Because in the book, Harry and Ron are not as blameless as they were in the movie. They saw the troll walking in the girls bathroom, and instead of calling a teacher or telling Percy the prefect, they wanted to play heroes and locked the door, not realizing that it was the bathroom in which Hermione hid. (By the way, I don't really know, why they thought locking the door would be a great idea. Surely the troll could have smashed it). They only realised in which situation Hermione was, when she screamed. And then, she couldn't escape, because Harry and Ron locked the door. That means, although they saved her, they were partly responsible for the situation in which she was. Hickengruendler From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 19:49:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:49:34 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent!Snape [Was "a question"] In-Reply-To: <015001c3f5e7$e486b5f0$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91205 > Jim wrote-- > Someone suggested he [Snape] may have a relationship with someone like Narcissa Malfoy (a relative, after all) who is giving him information. Cindy: > I've often wondered whether Snape was married to a DE. After all, didn't JRK say that some of the staff were married, and that would become important later? If he were, he'd have a strong witness for V that he did in fact support him. Carol: To my knowledge, Snape and Narcissa aren't related unless the Snapes are rather distantly related to the Blacks and are not on the part of the tapestry that Harry and Sirius looked at. (It goes back about a thousand years, IIRC, and must be very complex, so if Snape is a pureblood his family connections are probably there somewhere. Or Snape could be related to Narcissa by marriage, with the family connection through the Malfoy side, which seems probable though there's no way to prove it.) But Narcissa is the person Kreacher confided in and she gave her information to her husband, who in turn gave it to LV, so I don't think we can trust sweet Narcissa or that she would be Snape's contact. Whether or not he communicates directly with LV, I think Malfoy is his main contact. They appear to be on good terms and Malfoy would know a lot more about the DE's activities than Narcissa considering that he is (or was) in LV's inner circle. If Snape was married, I don't think it would have been to a DE. It's much more likely that DEs (or LV himself) killed his wife, which would be a very good reason for him to switch sides and for LV to distrust him. (I don't believe that Snape was present in the graveyard or that Fudge was the missing DE. I do believe that he has accounted for his absence to Lucius, who has passed that information on to LV, but I've already discussed those views in another post.) So, to reiterate, I don't think Snape's contact is Narcissa, I don't think his wife (if he had one) was a DE, and I think the witness who testifies to his loyalty is Lucius Malfoy. But that father of his (Snape's) was a Dark Wizard for sure and may well have been a DE. (Sorry, Kneasy. I don't think the narrator would have described the father as "a hook-nosed man" if it were Snape himself. Harry recognized Snape the teenager in the Pensieve, and he would have recognized Snape the adult (whom he sees every day of the school year) in that memory. Admittedly, he assumes that Snape's memories are of his own childhood, but I think in this case, it's a valid assumption.) Carol From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 20:00:15 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:00:15 -0000 Subject: Lockhart as Pullman? CLARIFICATION... Religious Aspects of HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91206 I'm just going to add my extra thoughts to this thread. Sorry, Susan, for going off on my own little tangent with Sally Lockhart, I sort of... answered your post without answering it. I just kept wondering why Granger (and I haven't read his book, so I'm basing this off your questions) would postulate Rowling had written Gilderoy to represent or symbolize Pullman, especially when she has recommended him in interviews? It didn't make any sense, and the only parallel I could draw was the similarities in the characters' surnames. (Unless, of course, Granger just likes imagining false characters to be caricatures of Pullman, which would be rather small- minded, to say the least). "His Dark Materials" caused a lot of controversy, not on the level that "Harry Potter" has, but that is more than likely due to the vast popularity of "Harry" compared to other children's novels. Pullman does rather attack organized religion outright, especially in "Amber Spyglass," but for some reason the fundamentalists have been more offended with the overt "withcraft" of "Harry." It's easy to see Rowling as edifying towards a Christian audience or towards anyone, for that matter, but only on a purely figurative level. But for whatever reason, most of the Christian readers I've come in contact with can't get past the "occultism" so blatantly displayed. As if Harry is worshipping Satan or something (I have very little patience with judgemental Holiness followers, who only read into technical detail, without looking for universal themes). But then some have read HDM, and are completely unoffended by it, which just... befuddles me. Pullman might as well state "I disagree with organized religion, Christ is good and all, but the assertion that humanity is naturally evil is a gross judgemental point of view." He seems to work with the assumption that people would be more inclined to do good, if the world and ecclesiastical systems did not revolve around the natural human inclination towards ralacity and desire for power. And on the assumption that God works in the same context. I can see why Granger would have problems with his work, but I do also see the empathy displayed for the human condition among Pullman's work. He just doesn't seem to want to blame humanity, he seems to place the blame on God for creating us in such a way, and in "His image." Paradox, anyone? But for all that, Christians attack "Harry Potter." You think Pullman would appreciate HP more, what with its VERY human, yet impossibly altruistic, hero, which is the assumption Pullman likes to work with. And Pullman does have a weird proclivity for writing female characters, which is not nearly as common for male writers, but he's never written anything I've found offensive. Which brought me back to Sally Lockhart, and the very un-religious atmosphere of said series. Maybe Pullman was writing his own religious statement in HDM, but I always read it as more of a search for that statement. A lot of the messages he puts across contradict one another, which can be said about the Christian organized-religion all around (though not Christianity itself). Rowling, however, seems, in my opinion, to just be doing her thing. As I said, she may very well be trying to edify towards a general audience, but don't all writers? When writing something, your own beliefs are going to come through, as are your assertions as to why the world is the way it is, and what should be done about it, especially on the grand epic scale that is HP. That's why I get so confused with the Bible Belt fundamentalists. Where are the evil undertones? There are human/original sin undertones, I see those, but you can't very well write about people without such themes. More than anything I see Christian undertones. The right vs. easy way. Truth vs. deception. Loyalty and bravery towards a selfless ideal. Some of the lurid imagery of HP has reminded me forcefully of "Pilgrim's Progress." (not to say Rowling is influenced by Bunyan, because I highly doubt she is). But from that Christianized perspective, you can see such examples, especially in the Department of Mysteries. But getting to my point, I see a lot of the religious debate as superfluous and irrelevant to HP. In Pullman's work, the religious aspects are obvious. In Rowling's, they are assumed to be there. It's as if the Christian fundamentalists don't want to believe in the natural human persuasion towards evil and Satan when reading a book, but want to tell you all about fire and brimstone in everyday life. I just wish they'd make up their minds. ~ Hitomi, who noticed she misspelled a lot of words in her last post, much to her vexation And thanks, Sylvia, for pointing out my error on "Hard Times," like I said I haven't read that book in ages. Harthouse didn't seduce Louisa, I just remembered her having been inclined to commit adultery, but then changing her mind (though with a husband like Bounderby, you empathize with the poor woman). I just liked the Utilitarianism vs. Romantic themes underlying the novel, though I agree, Dickens has written better. ("Little Dorrit" and "Nicholas Nickleby" are my favorites :-) ) From kate_bag at hotmail.com Wed Feb 18 20:03:28 2004 From: kate_bag at hotmail.com (dj_bagshaw) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:03:28 -0000 Subject: a maddening question of my own Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91207 In CoS, we learn that Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts for "opening the chamber of secrets". Now that his name has been cleared, why is he still not allowed to practice and/or learn magic? If it was all a misunderstanding (as it turns out it was), why can't he have a wand again? This has been bugging me for ages. dj_bagshaw From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 20:06:37 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:06:37 -0000 Subject: The invisibility cloak (Was: CHAP. DISCUSSION: CHAP 11 ) In-Reply-To: <20040218063852.17891.qmail@web21403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91208 Elihu Falk wrote: > 4) "Those cunning folk use any means to achive their > ends"[SS7] In addition to the above, James had to buy > a cloak of invisibily. He probably realised Dumbledore > would figure out about it, so I think he came up with > a "reason" - to steal food from the kitchens. Carol: I don't think we know that James bought his invisibility cloak. It could have been a family heirloom passed on to him by his father when James entered Hogwarts. (He couldn't have inherited it through his father's will because his parents were alive and unofficially "adopted" Sirius when both boys were about sixteen, but James was using the invisibility cloak before that time.) BTW, Lupin (or was it Sirius?) mentions the number of times he saw James disappear under the invisibility cloak. If they were in the same dormitory as Severus Snape, it would have been much harder to use the cloak--and much easier for Severus to follow the other boys to see what they were up to every full moon. I think that James and Sirius were in Gryffindor for the reckless courage that led them into mischief (very much like the Weasley twins). And Remus Lupin just doesn't fit the Slytherin profile. (Peter Pettigrew doesn't fit anywhere that I can see.) Carol From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 20:20:16 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:20:16 -0000 Subject: 2 Maddening Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91209 Insane Sen (nice name ;) ) wrote: > #2- WHY WHY WHY didn't Harry say anything about that digusting, > revolting, macabre quill of Professor Toads and the detentions? Why > didn't he go see McGonagall or ANYONE? I understand the fact that he > wanted to tough it out and not give Professor Toad the satisfaction > of knowing he told someone, but COME ON. There's certain times when > you've got to draw the line instead of being a stubborn prat! Hitomi: I really, really like Naama's interpretation (from the post "Harry as Martyr"): "Umbridge punishes Harry for telling that Voldemort has arisen, and she punishes him by making him cut his own flesh with *words.* Like the original martyrs, Harry could stop the torture by recanting his story, but he doesn't. He continues to suffer, and it's made clear that in a way, he seeks this confrontation, this test to his endurance. So the torture continues. Eventually, the words remain engraved on his flesh. Like the stigmata..." It does have a certain martyrdom flair about it. It looks so much more as if he's telling the truth to take the punishment, than to complain to a teacher, and not fight for his cause. And the person he needs most to prove himself to on this count is Umbridge. He proves himself equal to whatever she throws at him. I find it highly admirable. Though, I do think Harry should have said something concerning Lee Jordan; by that time, his personal confrontation with Umbridge's "Quill-of-Evilness" was over. (and where did she get such a thing anyway? Knockturn Alley?) ~ Hitomi From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 20:22:20 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:22:20 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black theory...not my own! And question about the dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91210 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > > Speaking of bodies, do we know anything about the Wizarding World's > > customs for disposing of the dead? I can't think of one dead > person, > > and I mean a witch or wizard in this case, that we know where their > > bodies are. Can anyone think of anything on this? > > > > LizVega > > I don't have my books with me, but I believe that we are told that > Moody!Crouch transfigured his father's body into a bone and buried it > near Hagrid's hut. I also remember Moody!Crouch saying that his > mother continued taking polyjuice potion and was buried still looking > like him. Father!Crouch faked his wife's death and that grave is > empty. I think burial is at least one of the accepted methods of > disposing of a magical body. > > Which begs the question, why hasn't Harry asked where his parents are > buried? > > MaggieB LizVega here: The question of the ages! Generally, though, why hasn't Harry asked anyone, especially Sirius, anything about his parents? He's never asked where the money came from, their jobs, his other relatives, etc. An opportune moment would've been when DD told Harry in OOP that he delivered him to his last living relatives. But, Harry was always told not to ask questions, maybe that's why. From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 20:24:17 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:24:17 -0000 Subject: a maddening question of my own In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91211 dj_bagshaw wrote: > In CoS, we learn that Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts for "opening > the chamber of secrets". Now that his name has been cleared, why is > he still not allowed to practice and/or learn magic? If it was all a > misunderstanding (as it turns out it was), why can't he have a wand > again? Hitomi: Er... he is allowed. >From South West News Service: Q: "Since Hagrid's name was cleared in Book 2, will he ever be allowed to do magic openly again?" (Jan Campbell) JKR: "He is allowed. He has been allowed to do magic openly ever since he became a teacher but because he was never fully trained his magic is never going to be what it should be. He is always going to be a bit inept." ~ Hitomi, who hopes that helps ;) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 20:33:04 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:33:04 -0000 Subject: How will Harry win in the end? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91212 LizVega: I agree with the theory that Harry will not use AK to kill LV, partly because, like you said, I don't think he'll be able to harness the joy in killing that is required to perform the spell. But, I also don't think that Harry and LV will use wands during their battle. We saw in GOF what happens when their wands meet- if wands are required, perhaps one of them will use someone else's wand. True, wizards don't receive the best results when using another's wand, but as powerful as LV and Harry (Will become)are, it's an option. I also agree that the key to defeating LV for good is the emotion that Harry has in huge quantities that DD referred to, some say it's love, but I don't think so. It seems like a cop-out, and horribly obvious, not jo's style at all. I've always wondered whether its' the 'essence' of magic. The very thing that connects Harry to the wizarding world, and all its' inhabitants. Carol: I agree with your first paragraph on almost all counts, though I think a cold indifference to human life would be at least as effective for the AK as joy in killing. I don't think Wormtail enjoyed killing Cedric and he certainly didn't hate him. He just kills him as part of his job. Carol From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Wed Feb 18 21:09:08 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:09:08 -0000 Subject: a maddening question of my own In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91213 > dj_bagshaw wrote: > > In CoS, we learn that Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts > for "opening > > the chamber of secrets". Now that his name has been cleared, why > is > > he still not allowed to practice and/or learn magic? If it was > all a > > misunderstanding (as it turns out it was), why can't he have a > wand > > again? > > Hitomi: > Er... he is allowed. > > From South West News Service: > > Q: "Since Hagrid's name was cleared in Book 2, will he ever be > allowed to do magic openly again?" (Jan Campbell) > > JKR: "He is allowed. He has been allowed to do magic openly ever > since he became a teacher but because he was never fully trained his > magic is never going to be what it should be. He is always going to > be a bit inept." > dorapye: Yes....I seem to remember feeling quite satisfied about Hagrid's 'licence' to use magic being reinstated after CoS...and then, in OotP, in Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale (p377 UK Ed): "...so we got inter France an' we made like we was headin' fer where Olympe's school is, 'cause we knew we was bein' tailed by someone from the Ministry. We had to go slow, 'cause I'm not really s'posed ter use magic an' we knew the Ministry'd be lookin' fer a reason to run us in...." So, he's not supposed to use magic, *still*? This contradicts the Canon herself (see above)! On reading OotP, I revised my original assumption that Hagrid was given a complete pardon by the Ministry and had had his wizard status reconferred; I decided he must have been given a conditional reinstatement - something like: he is allowed to practice magic, but only under Dumbledore's 'supervision' and any magical accidents that he causes are therefore ultimately DD's responsibility. This was my own little explanation and I don't expect anyone to take it too seriously - it is completely a-canon. But, the next logical conclusion this allowed me to draw was that, with DD held 'in contempt' of The Ministry with his Voldy declarations, and consequently removed from all positions of authority Fudge had the power to influence, Hagrid's conditional reinstatement was revoked and Hagrid is again not allowed to do magic...see whee I'm going, here? I have a feeling this was discussed only recently on site but I didn't follow the threads to the end (time constraints), so I don't know what the conclusions were, but I have never read that JKR quote before. It's left me more than a little confused.....did I get it *completely* wrong? Did I misundertand Hagrid's statement about not being allowed to do magic in OotP? Please help me straighten this one out...! dorapye From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 21:21:18 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:21:18 -0000 Subject: One more "murder" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91214 "lizvega2" wrote: > 2. In GOF-The Riddle House- LV tells Wormtail that he needs to > commit one more murder, and his path to Harry Potter will be > complete. He's not talking about Bertha Jorkins, that already > happened when this scene took place. > > Did this get resolved at all? Carol: The same question was raised recently and resolved through differences between the American and British editions. The American edition has "murder," an editorial blunder; the British edition has "curse." Sorry I don't have time to look up the posts for you, but you can probably find it using the Search feature. (The darn thing does work; you just have to click "Next" instead of "Previous" to search backwards in the archives and make sure you type in your search term every time.) Carol From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Feb 18 21:31:28 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:31:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91215 "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Jen asked: > > 7) Why does McGonagall warn Harry that misbehavior is Umbridge's > > class will cost more than a few detentions? What does she think he > > will lose? > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > I think she could mean any number of things. That Harry came close > to being in big trouble before the school year even began. Has he > forgotten so quickly? Fudge would love an excuse to bring him back > to the MoM for another trial and/or to kick him out of Hogwarts. She > might be thinking ahead to the possibility that Dumbledore is likely > to get involved in defending Harry, which could have consequences for > his ability to stay at Hogwarts. She might also be thinking about > the need for keeping knowledge of the Order under wraps. Jen: I wasn't sure what McGonagall meant when I analyzed this chapter, but you make a case for numerous consequnces for Harry, DD and the Order. You know, after re-reading this chapter, it surprises me Umbridge and Fudge didn't target Harry from the beginning to get to Dumbledore. Why did they want Harry out of Hogwarts, knowing their strategy would be to undermine DD over the course of the year? Divide and conquer, I guess, but they obviously don't view Harry as the threat, only Dumbeldore (so again, why get Harry out of Hogwarts?). Oh, unless they *are* targeting Harry to get to Dumbledore by staging the courtroom drama. It doesn't seem staged though, and Fudge didn't appear to get anything from the proceedings. Annemehr: >(Answering same question about McGonagall) >I'm not sure if she's thinking anything in particular, but I'm >reminded of that nasty smile Umbridge is wearing as she watches >Harry finish a very successful DADA OWL complete with corporeal >patronus.I'm betting Harry gets a nasty shock when he receives his >OWL results because Umbridge has already set some plan in motion. >Even if Dumbledore gets it all cleared up, for the sake of the >story there'll have to be some consequences; I wonder what they >could be? Jen: Ooh, I never thought of that! Another mess for DD to waste time on so he can't get back to the business of the Order. Maybe the courtroom drama *was* staged to drain away all of DD's time? Umbridge and Fudge know DD will always rush to Harry's defense, even though they don't know why. Maybe Dumbeldore was right when he said his love for Harry was a 'flaw in the plan'. Now DD has set himself up as a target just like Sirius, although of course he will be harder to get to. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 21:34:59 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:34:59 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91216 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Jen asked: > > 5) Snape singles out Harry once again in Potions, making much of > > Harry's mistake. It crossed my mind that Snape, while bullying > > Harry, might also be trying to make certain Harry knows how to make > > this particular potion. Any thoughts? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > Absolutely! Same as in SS/PS when Snape throws those first three > questions at Harry in their very first class. I think he is trying to > make the incidents *memorable* so that Harry will never forget the > humiliation...and hence, hopefully, never forget the CONTENT of the > lessons as well. Carol: Funny thing; the word "absolutely!" also popped into my head when I read Jen's question, but SSS has already said it for me. So I'll just add another example of the same tactic (evidence that Snape *is* teaching Harry Potions whether he realizes it or not): Snape goes back and makes Harry reread the instructions on the board and discover for himself that he has forgotten part of step 3. I don't recall the particular potion, but the point of the lesson is that you *must* follow directions exactly: the exact amount of the exact ingredients in the exact order specified. I think it's the same lesson in which Snape assigns Harry an extra essay on the uses of moonstone in potion making--a hint that moonstones will come in handy for Harry in a future book. I think most of Snape's seeming abuse of Harry (which has not harmed him in any way, unlike Umbridge's cruel punishment using his own blood) is intended to enforce the same lesson. (Which is not to say that he secretly likes Harry. Obviously he doesn't. But he is nevertheless helping him *in front of the Slytherins* under cover of sarcasm. If the Gryffindors had Potions with the Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs, he might find other, less antagonistic, methods of making the lessons memorable.) Carol Carol From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Wed Feb 18 22:02:26 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:02:26 -0000 Subject: How did Fudge/Snape know about Dementors attacking HP in PoA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91217 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Partha Mukhopadhyay" wrote: > My question is this: > Near the end of PoA, how, if Snape was knocked out when the > dementors went after Harry, did he, and/or Fudge know that the > dementors had tried to Kiss Harry? > > Talking to Fudge outside the hospital ward, Snape says something along > the lines of not knowing what drove the dementors back, that by the > time he came to, they were retreating, which suggests that he didn't > actually see the dementor attempt to kiss Harry, and therefore that he > did not know the details of the attack, or was even aware of anything > that had happened. It's safe to say he also did not see the patronus, as > he would have recognized it for what it was, had he been awake to see > the initial dementor retreat. > > Since no one else was around, how the heck did he or Fudge know that > that attack had occurred? Hermione and Harry at that point hadn't talked > to Fudge or Snape or Dumbledore, as they were just awakening in the > hospital wing. If I recall correctly, in the very brief meeting of Harry and > Fudge (pre-time turner action? I haven't read the book in months, this is > just something that's bugging me for no discernible reason today), there > is no mention of the attack. And in the subsequent action, there is no > meeting between Fudge and anyone who might have been able to tell > him that the dementors did indeed try to Kiss Potter - Sirius was > unconscious at the time of that attack (as one of the HPfGu threads I > looked at a few minutes ago about that specific attack posited, maybe > the Dementors went after Harry because he was the only one conscious > at the time), and Harry and Hermione don't meet up with Fudge until the > very end. > > It's at that time that Fudge says something to the effect that he can't > believe the dementors would have tried to kiss an innocent boy. > > So, overlarge post boiled down to one line: How did Cornelius Fudge > know about the attempted Dementor's Kiss on Harry Potter? > > I recall no line in the book that would suggest that he could possibly > have know what had happened. The argument above points to no one > from whom he could have learned about the incident (possible exception > below) > > Every time I've tried to bounce this off a friend who might care, I've > been met with an unsatisfying, "Dumbledore knows everything" > or "Fudge asked the Dementors about what had happened out there." I > can't argue with the prior other than to say that it's a weak copout, and I > find the latter unlikely, as it's necessary to assume that any particular > head dementor that Fudge would talk to would a) happen to know of > that particular action by one of his "people", and b) actually share that > information with Fudge. > dorapye: This is what I find so fascinating about this site - things you quite happily accept for years and then suddenly you are forced to re-examine and justify all your previous understanding.... So I went back to PoA, quite convinced that there *was* no problem here, after all, *I'd* never seen one...but I agree, there is a smidgen of a 'what the..?' about this one. So, I will attempt to explain, rationally, the way I have *chosen* to make sense of this, and you are quite welcome to ignore my, er, explanation, if it doesn't quite fit with the way you look at it all. Chapter 21, Hemione's Secret Before Harry and Hermione take their time-trip, Snape and Fudge are discussing Snape's rescue of the vhildren and Sirius: "'What amazes me most is the behaviour of the Dementors...you've really no idea what made them retreat, Snape? 'No Minister. By the time I had come round they were headin back to their positions at the entrances...'" So, from this we learn that Snape did NOT see Harry's patronus charge the dementors away, nor we he have known that the H, H na S were completely surrounded by the Dementors and at their mercy, though he might have been able to guess this, as all three were unconscious, without any apparent blows to the head! Still, Snape would not be telling Fudge that the Dementors were going to kiss Harry, as he didn't see any evidence of this, and Snape, IMO, is not the type of man to offer wild suppositions as fact. Chapter 22: "'And the Dementors?' said Dumbledore. 'They'll be removed from the school, I trust?' 'Oh yes, they'll have to go,' said Fudge, running his fingers disractedly through his hair. 'Never dreamed they'd attempt to administer the Kiss on an innocent boy...completely out of control...'..." So, if Snape didn't see what the Dementors were up to, how did Fudge know? This is *your* question, of course. Two options present themselves to me here, since I can't accept that Dementors can *speak* per se: EITHER:DD observed the Dementors on the edge of the lake and was about to intervene himself when Time-Travelling!Harry sent his Patronus across the lake and the Dementors moved off, allowing DD to see clearly that Harry had been singled out for a Kiss. DD informed Fudge. It seems to be that, from DD's question above, he is *reminding* Fudge about something they have already discussed - that the Dementors are more dangerous to Harry and the other students than any threat posed by escaped Azkaban prisoners. The 'I trust' at the end of DD's question indicates he does not expect a refusal to his request. This must be because he knows he has presented a strong case to Fudge in order to secure Fudge's agreement. This 'case' is echoed by Fudge in his acknowledgement that DD's request must indeed be seceded to - he mentions the Dementors attempting to Kiss Harry. This strongly indicates that it was DD who informed Fudge that this had happened. Is it possible that DD could have extracted the info from the Dementors (are they like The Borg - a collective consciousness, do you think?) perhaps using Legilimency or some other magical method? Still not convinced that Dementors can speak, so would have to be some form of 'mind reading'...When would DD have 'asked' (interrogated) the Dementors? Was there time? OR: Fudge saw Harry and Hermione running towards Sirius and watched the Dementors surround all three, and saw the one Dementor swoop on Harry to perform the Kiss. Not quite sure where to take this second explanation, perhaps someone else, if interested, could do that instead. I'm more in favour of the first explanation, though it does hark back to your "Dumbledore knows everything" one which has caused you so much frustration....sorry 'bout tha' Anyway, hope this has helped in some ways, Partha dorapye From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 22:04:03 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:04:03 -0000 Subject: How will Harry win in the end? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91218 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > LizVega: > > > > Carol: > I agree with your first paragraph on almost all counts, though I think > a cold indifference to human life would be at least as effective for > the AK as joy in killing. I don't think Wormtail enjoyed killing > Cedric and he certainly didn't hate him. He just kills him as part of > his job. > > Carol LizVega: Interesting point! Wormy didn't seem at all thrilled to be doing his part. We have to wonder what was going through his mind when he killed Cedric, and when he cut his own hand off! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 22:04:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:04:27 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black theory...not my own! And question about the dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91219 LizVega: Speaking of bodies, do we know anything about the Wizarding World's customs for disposing of the dead? I can't think of one dead person, and I mean a witch or wizard in this case, that we know where their bodies are. Can anyone think of anything on this? MaggieB: > I don't have my books with me, but I believe that we are told that > Moody!Crouch transfigured his father's body into a bone and buried it > near Hagrid's hut. I also remember Moody!Crouch saying that his > mother continued taking polyjuice potion and was buried still looking like him. Father!Crouch faked his wife's death and that grave is empty. I think burial is at least one of the accepted methods of > disposing of a magical body. Carol: Just a small postscript to that MaggieB's example: The Dementors buried Mrs. Crouch's body (Polyjuiced to look like her son's) on the island of Azkaban. (Sirius watched them do it through the little window in his cell.) Also, Cedric's shadow self asks Harry to return his body to his parents, presumably so it can be buried and not left lying in the open in the Muggle graveyard. (I shudder to think what would have happened to it there.) I think that wizards must have their own cemeteries or bury the dead on their own land where Muggles won't observe the burial or see the gravestone. I also think that the DEs knew they were in a *Muggle* graveyard in GoF. I wonder if Malfoy, at least, figured out who was buried there. He may have figured out what Bellatrix, who was in Azkaban at the time, clearly didn't know--that LV is a half-blood. Carol, who is now going to start humming "Secret Agent Man" every time she reads Snape's name (which is what I get for not skipping the filks) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 22:21:37 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:21:37 -0000 Subject: Time turner problems (Was: PoA Plot does not work) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91220 Paula: Can you help me with another timeturner problem I have? In the MoM scene in OotP, a whole rack of timeturners breaks and then repairs itself. Doesn't this create a "paradox" under your approach? Also, doesn't that scene suggest that timeturners have a "life" of their own? There's not a person there to knock the shelf over again and again, so the timeturners themselves must be doing this. Can they have an element of knowlege or something? Carol: Which leads me to wonder what exactly happened to the baby-headed Death Eater in the same scene. Has anyone figured out who he is? Obviously not Bellatrix, but I've also eliminated Nott (knocked out earlier), Malfoy, Dolohov, Rookwood, Avery, and MacNair (all of whom Harry recognizes or would recognize), and Jugson who was paired with Dolohov and must be the one hit with the Petrificus Totalus spell at about that same time. I don't think it's Crabbe, whom he might have recognized by his build, and it probably isn't one of the Lestrange brothers, who were probably the two following Bellatrix. I think that leaves just Mulciber. Has anyone else tried to figure this out? At any rate, I think we have one Death Eater as a permanent resident of St. Mungo's. I hope he doesn't end up in the same ward with Agnes and the Longbottoms! Carol From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Wed Feb 18 22:21:52 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:21:52 -0000 Subject: How did Fudge/Snape know about Dementors attacking HP in PoA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91221 dorapye: Yikes! Replying to my own post, but I just realised something I wanted to add, whihc might all go in with other questions being asked by other posters about time travel in the Potterverse. So, if DD actually *observed* the Dementors descending on H, H and S by the edge of the lake, he will also have observed the Patronus. Later he tells Harry that his Patronus at the Quidditch match (final?) when Draco & co pose as Dementors was a stag... SO, DD would immediately recognise the Patronus as Harry's, but..what? There is Harry unconscious by the edge of the lake...DD puts two and two together and realises there must be two Harrys out by the lake at that moment in time...suddenly Buckbeak's miraculous disappearance all makes sense to him too, and he knows what he must do.... When DD visits HH in the hospital wing, he knows he must assist them in using Hermione's Time-Turner to do what has essentially already been done...he knows they are likely to need his prompting and his concealment of their time-travelling if he is to convince the Minister that Harry and Hermione were not involved in either escapes that night. So, how does this fit, now? Now I have managed to convince myself, if no one else, that DD, in this case at least, does indeed know everything... dorapye From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Wed Feb 18 22:25:32 2004 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:25:32 -0000 Subject: Everyday Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91222 During a current re-read of the series (I'm about 2/3 through OotP, now), several little things have occurred to me. The one I currently can't get out of my head concerns the use of everyday magic by some characters. Hermione immediately comes to mind as someone who uses everyday magic quite often. She starts fires, repairs glasses, bewitches knitting needles, unlocks doors, clears footprints, etc. Harry comes springing to mind as one who rarely uses everyday magic. Sure, he uses spells in classes, the Tri-Wizard Championship and in defense of his life...but not too often in day-to-day life. Is there a reason for it or is just a function of the point of view of the story? I mean to say, is it just that the story is told as if from Harry and his own practice of such mundane magic isn't noteworthy? At first, I thought it had to do with his upbringing - having never been able to rely on magic for things...but then Hermione wouldn't use it for the same reason, as she, too only found out about her abilities at age 11. So what do you think? Tcy (who will now return to lurking - because I realize that with a post like this, it's where I belong) From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Wed Feb 18 22:28:11 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:28:11 -0000 Subject: Time turner problems (Was: PoA Plot does not work) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91223 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: >> Carol: > Which leads me to wonder what exactly happened to the baby-headed > Death Eater in the same scene. Has anyone figured out who he is? > Obviously not Bellatrix, but I've also eliminated Nott (knocked out > earlier), Malfoy, Dolohov, Rookwood, Avery, and MacNair (all of whom > Harry recognizes or would recognize), and Jugson who was paired with > Dolohov and must be the one hit with the Petrificus Totalus spell at > about that same time. I don't think it's Crabbe, whom he might have > recognized by his build, and it probably isn't one of the Lestrange > brothers, who were probably the two following Bellatrix. I think that > leaves just Mulciber. Has anyone else tried to figure this out? dorapye: Carol, there is a very thorough, blow-by-blow analysis of the fight in the DoM on the Lexicon site (go through the What's New icon to find it - its quite recent). I *think*, though I may be remembering it wrongly, that the man who wrote this essay concluded that the baby-headed DE was indeed Crabbe Snr, but it is best to dig through his evidence and see if you agree.. dorapye From cristina_angelo at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 22:32:06 2004 From: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Cristina_Rebelo_=C2ngelo?=) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:32:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 2 Maddening Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91224 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theultimatesen" wrote: > > #2- WHY WHY WHY didn't Harry say anything about that digusting, > revolting, macabre quill of Professor Toads and the detentions? Why > didn't he go see McGonagall or ANYONE? I understand the fact that he > wanted to tough it out and not give Professor Toad the satisfaction > of knowing he told someone, but COME ON. There's certain times when > you've got to draw the line instead of being a stubborn prat! > > If anyone has any input on this, PLEASE tell me! > Insane Sen Siriusly Snapey Susan: I think Harry has a habit of both this kind of NOT telling AND not asking the questions we want him to ask. I imagine it has a lot to do w/ old habits dying hard. "Don't ask questions!" was a constant refrain in the Dursley household, was it not? Harry was to stay quiet, in his room, pretending not to exist. Harry surely learned during those years to rely on himself first & foremost, and even though he has Ron, Hermione, DD, McGonagall, Neville, Ginny--any number of people--who WANT to help him now, I think his first tendency is still to go it alone. "*I* have to fix this", "*I* have to handle this", "This is *MY* problem", etc. Harry's unwillingness/inability to report things, to ask questions, and his tendency to lose his temper JUST when we wanted to hear what was coming next are things that drive us readers batty...AND pave the way for JKR to keep some of her best secrets for a little while longer. :-) [Cristina Angelo] (thirdly) Also, remember when Harry didn't want to tell Sirius or Dumbledore about his scar hurting, and one time it was Ron who pushed him into it. I took that as from a kid who feels he's being a bother, that others will find him ridiculous - I think that's also an heritage from the Dursleys, and something he began to overcome in OotP. From someone who is nothing and shouldn't interrupt others (their talking, their train of thought, their effort of inhaling and exhaling...) to someone who doesn't really considers himself as the-boy-who-lived but as someone who actually has some rights. He began to feel like this when the attention he had had for four years seemed to stop, in OotP, and he realised, not only that he might be someone important even if he didn't want it (especially as he could die), but as someone who had rights. I see OotP as Harry growing, sometimes recoiling to his past learnings (and the "This is *my* problem" coming after the "Don't be a nuisance"), sometimes rebelling against that (when he "bothered" everybody, and got Hogwarts in a turmoil just so he could ask Sirius about James). I don't think it has anything to do with being a stubborn prat. He's being a prat when he tells, when he makes himself heard. I think the quill episode is one where he's being the submissive boy-in-closet who gets beaten and shuts his mouth. *** Cristina Rebelo ?ngelo HYPERLINK "http://www.cangelo.novelcity.com/"www.cangelo.novelcity.com / ICQ 106255886 / Yahoo Messenger cristina_angelo / Fax (USA) 001-425-920-0285 HPGCv1 a31 e++ x+ -- z+++ A27 Rhp HPa S+++ Mo HaP++ HG++ RW++ AD++ RH+++ VK& NhN& SB& DM--- O++ F sfD Any attached file not mentioned in the body of the message may be a virus; if present, delete it for the sake of your computer, and inform the sender. Thank you. "Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour tracer un chemin/ Et forcer le destin/ A chaque carrefour Quand on n'a que l'amour/ Pour parler aux canons/ Et rien qu'une chanson/ Pour coinvancre un tambour Alors sans avoir rien/ Que la force d'aimer/ Nous aurons dans nos mains/ Amis le monde entier" J.Brel 1956 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.591 / Virus Database: 374 - Release Date: 17/02/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Feb 18 22:36:39 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:36:39 -0000 Subject: Everyday Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91225 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Hunt" wrote: >snip< Hermione immediately comes to mind as someone who uses everyday magic quite often. She starts fires, repairs glasses, bewitches knitting needles, unlocks doors, clears footprints, etc. Harry comes springing to mind as one who rarely uses everyday magic. Is there a reason for it or is just a function of the point of view > of the story? So what do you think? > > Tcy > (who will now return to lurking - because I realize that with a post > like this, it's where I belong) I think he also leaves the cap off the toothpaste, his wet towel on the floor and his dirty clothes beside the hamper. Welcome, this is a great observation! I'm also re-reading and I think it was CoS he gets in trouble for tracking mud into the castle. Why in Merlin's name didn't he evanesco it away before he came inside in the first place! Potioncat From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue Feb 17 22:54:08 2004 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:54:08 +0100 Subject: Subject: Re: How did Fudge/Snape know about Dementors attacking HP in PoA? Message-ID: <003e01c3f5a8$f4982b70$af07243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 91226 dorapye wrote: Two options present themselves to me here, since I can't accept that Dementors can *speak* per se: Fridwulfa (that's me): Dementors can talk, or at least are quite able to comunicate with wizards, and there's cannon to prove it. "Molly, how many times do I have to tell you? They didn't report it in the press because Fudge wanted it kept quiet, but Fudge went out to Azkaban the night Black escaped. The guards told Fudge that Blacks been talking in his sleep for a while now." ... (PoA, chapter 4 "The Leaky Cauldron") And later on: "I do not believe a single person inside this castle would have helped Black enter it," said Dumbledore, and his tone made it so clear that the subject was closed that Snape didn't reply. "I must go down to the dementors," said Dumbledore. I said I would inform them when our search was complete." "Didn't they want to help, sit?" said Percy. "Oh yes," said Dumbledore coldly. "But I'm afraid no dementor will cross the threshold of this castle while I am headmaster." Of course, this last bit doesn't reffer especifically to a real conversation, but it implies Dumbledore is quite able to comunicate with them, as was Fudge when he visited Azkaban and was informed about Black's weird behaviour. Hope that helps, Cheers, Fridwulfa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 18 23:49:15 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:49:15 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91227 > > Jen asked: > > > 5) Snape singles out Harry once again in Potions, making much of > > > Harry's mistake. It crossed my mind that Snape, while bullying > > > Harry, might also be trying to make certain Harry knows how to make > > > this particular potion. Any thoughts? > > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > Absolutely! Same as in SS/PS when Snape throws those first three > > questions at Harry in their very first class. I think he is trying to > > make the incidents *memorable* so that Harry will never forget the > > humiliation...and hence, hopefully, never forget the CONTENT of the > > lessons as well. > > Carol: > Funny thing; the word "absolutely!" also popped into my head when I > read Jen's question, but SSS has already said it for me. So I'll just > add another example of the same tactic (evidence that Snape *is* > teaching Harry Potions whether he realizes it or not): Snape goes back > and makes Harry reread the instructions on the board and discover for > himself that he has forgotten part of step 3. I don't recall the > particular potion, but the point of the lesson is that you *must* > follow directions exactly: the exact amount of the exact ingredients > in the exact order specified. I think it's the same lesson in which > Snape assigns Harry an extra essay on the uses of moonstone in potion > making--a hint that moonstones will come in handy for Harry in a > future book. I think most of Snape's seeming abuse of Harry (which has > not harmed him in any way, unlike Umbridge's cruel punishment using > his own blood) is intended to enforce the same lesson. snip> > Carol > > Carol Sue chiming in: I have trouble with this whole "Snape is teaching Harry by ridiculing him to make sure he remembers" thing. As a teacher, I always knew that if I wanted to get my point across I better be sure that the kid in question knew what my point was. I don't think Harry remembers much of anything from potions, especially on his first day of Hogwarts, except that Snape hates his guts. In other words, Snape was not making the point about beazors, he was making the point that he couldn't stand Harry. I will admit to having a rather bad attitude about Snape from the very beginning and also to being influenced by the Snape lovers on the list. Which means, I don't like the guy, BUT I see that he probably has an ulterior motive for SOME of the things he does. Most of the time, IMHO, his ridicule is simply that, ridicule, with no other purpose other than to humiliate the recipiant. I do think there is something to your belief about the draught of peace, he didn't just ridicule Harry, he made him read the directions, and write about it that night. In this particular case Snape really does seem to be trying to make sure Harry knows this potion. There are probably other examples when the follow up is indeed teaching, but there seem to more times when there is no follow up what so ever. Honesty, it seems to me Snape doesn't give a darn whether Harry learns potions or not and he certainly doesn't seem to want Harry back in NEWT potions (though IMHO, he will be). I don't think he is doing anything other than flexing his "I am the adult, you are the kid and I can do whatever I want" muscles whenever Harry is around most of the time. Sue, who has spent way too much time trying to compose this post and now feels more conflicted about Severus Snape than ever. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 19 00:07:10 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:07:10 -0000 Subject: Everyday Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91228 <<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Hunt" wrote:...Hermione immediately comes to mind as someone who uses everyday magic quite often. She starts fires, repairs glasses, bewitches knitting needles, unlocks doors, clears footprints, etc. Harry comes springing to mind as one who rarely uses everyday magic. Is there a reason for it... Then "potioncat" replied:...I think he also leaves the cap off the toothpaste, his wet towel on the floor and his dirty clothes beside the hamper...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says Harry's a boy and Hermione's a girl. Hermione is also a teacher's pet and a class brain. Anytime she learns anything new she's going to work it to death before she adds it to her repertory. Harry, like Ron or any other regular boy, remembers things as longs as he needs to in order to pass the exam. Then he forgets about it until some crisis brings it to the front of his mind. --JDR From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Thu Feb 19 00:11:55 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:11:55 -0000 Subject: How will Harry win in the end? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91229 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > > LizVega here: > > I agree with the theory that Harry will not use AK to kill LV, > partly because, like you said, I don't think he'll be able to > harness the joy in killing that is required to perform the spell. > But, I also don't think that Harry and LV will use wands during > their battle. We saw in GOF what happens when their wands meet- if > wands are required, perhaps one of them will use someone else's > wand. True, wizards don't receive the best results when using > another's wand, but as powerful as LV and Harry (Will become)are, > it's an option. > > I also agree that the key to defeating LV for good is the emotion > that Harry has in huge quantities that DD referred to, some say it's > love, but I don't think so. It seems like a cop-out, and horribly > obvious, not jo's style at all. I've always wondered whether its' > the 'essence' of magic. The very thing that connects Harry to the > wizarding world, and all its' inhabitants. > I agree that it doesn't need to be wands. I wonder after the dementor scene in OOP whether Harry even needs a wand (Lumos!). The love thing is definitely sappy and I don't usually go for that either. I wonder, however, what will defeat LV who is pure, self- indulgent evil. I think that DD's speech at the end of OOP was giving us clues to that. If the story continues as it has been, I'm thinking that in Book 6 LV will attempt to get Harry to destroy himself by destroying the things Harry holds dear. If he could see what losing Sirius did to Harry, he will try to do more of the same. Kristen From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Feb 19 00:16:05 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:16:05 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA Plot does not work. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91230 In a message dated 2/18/2004 6:51:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, silmariel at telefonica.net writes: She's only using a timeline, but I don't agree that implies by default that two Harry's had ALWAYS been there. Determinism is not a necessity for PoA to be explained. As a reference, 'The End of Eternity' by Asimov plays with a unique timeline being rewrited multiple times. =========== Sherrie here: But as Heinlein points out, that doesn't change the original timeline - it merely creates an ALTERNATE timeline, which branches from the original at a given crux. (See NUMBER OF THE BEAST and THAT CAT WHO WALKED THROUGH WALLS, among others.) The trouble is in perception - because we read the incident twice, we think of it as having occurred twice, when really, there was only one unique incident, which we are seeing from two different points of Harryvision. Harry was there twice, yes - but it only HAPPENED once, and the presence of both sets of H&H was necessary for it TO happen. (For a story showing this a bit more clearly, I guess, try Harlan Ellison's "One Life, Furnished In Early Poverty".) Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Thu Feb 19 00:20:21 2004 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:20:21 -0000 Subject: 2 Maddening Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91231 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theultimatesen" wrote: > #2- WHY WHY WHY didn't Harry say anything about that digusting, > revolting, macabre quill of Professor Toads and the detentions? Why > didn't he go see McGonagall or ANYONE? Cassie said: <>Perhaps he constantly wants to prove himself--even to himself.<> The sorting hat pointed this out in SS "...nice thirst to prove yourself, now that is interesting...." From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 00:31:16 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:31:16 -0000 Subject: a maddening question of my own In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hitomi" wrote: > dj_bagshaw wrote: > > In CoS, we learn that Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts for > > "opening the chamber of secrets". Now that his name has been > > cleared, why is he still not allowed to practice and/or learn > > magic? If it was all a misunderstanding (as it turns out it > > was), why can't he have a wand again? > > Hitomi: > Er... he is allowed. > > From South West News Service: > > Q: "Since Hagrid's name was cleared in Book 2, will he ever be > allowed to do magic openly again?" (Jan Campbell) > > JKR: "He is allowed. He has been allowed to do magic openly ever > since he became a teacher but because he was never fully trained his > magic is never going to be what it should be. He is always going to > be a bit inept." > > ~ Hitomi, who hopes that helps ;) bboy_mn: Covered this about a week ago, but it's kind of short, so I'll tackle it again. For details, see my published works- Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:32 pm Subject: Re: getting wands back - Nitpick Hagrid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90898 and a follow-up- Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:50 am Subject: Re: getting wands back - Nitpick Hagrid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90928 It is accepted that Hagrid wasn't involved in the opening of the Chamber. People have always looked the other way when Hagrid performed magic. After CoS, his use of magic and the 'looking away' is just more blatant. People know he's innocent, and in general, there is no restriction on his use of magic. But there is a big difference between people's general attitudes and acceptance, and what is an offical public record. People accept that Hagrid is innocent but there has yet to be a public hearing to officially reverse the ruling against him. Unofficially, Hagrid can do all the magic he wants, but OFFICIALLY, there is still a legal ruling against him. I suspect that the Ministry was even willing to look the other way until the recent paranoid conflict between the Ministry and Dumbledore came into being. Now, the Ministry is looking for any excuse to come down on Dumbledore and his supporters, which means that Hagrid once again has to be careful. That legal ruling against him needs to be overturned, and personally, I wish they would get it over with, so we can move on. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 01:47:37 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 01:47:37 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91233 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > ...edited... > > > QUESTIONS: > > 1) In COS when many students avoided Harry because he was the > presumed Heir of Slytherin, Harry turned to Ron and Hermione for > support and encouragement. In OOTP when the same situation arises, > Harry is pushing everyone away including his best friends. Is this a > temporary crack in the relationship of the Trio, or is it the > beginning of a more permanent break in the relationships? > bboy_mn: Well, I've weighed in on this before. I think Harry's sense of isolation near the end of OotP foreshadows things to come. Harry, with his realization that he is truly a Marked Man, is now a stranger in a strange land. An alien in a world that is oddly familiar to him. This complete separateness and uniqueness that Harry believes is impossible for other people to understand, combined with the knowledge that his ultimate fate is to murder or be murdered (his own words), will create a stronge sense isolation. Harry will be polite and friendly to all, but while friendly to all, friends to no one. In addition, it has been made amply clear to Harry, and to it's greatest unavoidable extent in the most recent book, that to be Harry's friend is to, in all likelihood, be dead or at least, damaged. Harry will not want to risk the lives of his friends. He will never again want to make the mistake that put his dearest friends and innocent people at risk the way he did near the end of OoP. So, it's always nice to be nice, it's always nice to be friendly and polite, but for some one with such a dark and dangerous destiny, it's not nice to put the lives of others at risk. So, friendly, but not friends, there but not really there, amoung people but never part of them, represent how I see Harry at the beginning of the next book. Of course, Harry's friends are never going to let him get away with that crap. > Jen questions continue: > > 2) Fred and George rarely talk about the hot political climate in > the WW once they leave Grimmauld Place. Should we take at face-value > that their part in the War will be to provide humor for the over- > stressed WW? Could they also be doing other research that might > assist the Order at a later date? > bboy_mn: I don't think you can take anything the Twins do at face value. The impression they give the world as devil-may-care mischief makers, goes against what seems to be obviously happening in the background. In the background they are very brilliant, knowledgable, and capable wizards who are working hard to produce what I would consider brilliant innovative products. To the outer world, their persona is party, party, party, but behind the scene it must be work, work, work. However, given the line of work they intent to be in, the PARTY persona is an ideal image for their business. In addition, I am firmly convinced they will apply their unique talents to the fight against Voldemort. The invisible head hats seem to have a lot of potential. These are very smart, and very shrewd boys, who I perdict will eventually run one of the largest and most successful wizard businesses in the wizard world. And, in the process of making themselves rich, they will make Harry very very rich by default, since he is the largest and original investor in their business. I predict, by the end of the story, Weasley business enterprises will generate sufficient wealth, that a tired miserable weathered and worn Harry will not have to struggle to get by in the wizard world. For once, he can finally live a quiet and comfortable life. > Jen questions continue: > > 3) When the Trio discuss future career options over breakfast, what > is Hermione proposing when she suggests taking S.P.E.W further? > bboy_mn: Hermione clearly thinks helping the house-elves is an important calling. Unfortunately, she has yet to figure out that it is not the elves that need fixing, it's the wizards. To 'take S.P.E.W. further' I think means that Hermione would act as a lobbiest for the elves making sure they had proper representation in the Department for the Control and Regulation of Magical Creatures, and to lobby the Ministry to get laws passed the give legal power and protection to the elves, and that acknowledge their rights to fair treatment. > Jen questions continue: > > 4) The Draught of Peace can cause an irreversible sleep, but > apparently not death. The use of this potion is opposite of the > effects of the Befuddlement Draught mentioned in a later chapter. > Coincidence? Red Herring? > bboy_mn: I'm not putting too much weight into the various potions that are mentioned in the book. True one or more of them could come back into the story, but they are so vague and isolated that I think taking them beyond the face value of the part of the story where they occur is a case of making a montain out of a mole hill. Take the Befuddlement Charm in OoP (Am Ed HB pg 384), key words in the books description of ingredients are triggering key words in Harry's thoughts. I think this is the only connection. "/...desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness.../" "...Hermione said Sirius was becoming reckless..." "/...moste effficacious in the inflaming of the braine.../" "...the Daily Prophet would think his brain was inflamed..." "/...used in Confusing and Befuddlemet Draughts.../" "...confusing was the word, all right; why did he know what Voldemort was feeling?..." "/...where the wizard is desirous.../" "...how he would like (desire*) to sleep..." "/...of producing hot-headedness.../" "...it was warm (hot*) and comfortable in his armchair before the fire..." (*) I added the words in parenthesis. You can see that as Harry gradually falls asleep the connection between the words on the page and his thoughts becomes more disjointed. > Jen questions continue: > > 5) Snape singles out Harry once again in Potions, making much of > Harry's mistake. It crossed my mind that Snape, while bullying > Harry, might also be trying to make certain Harry knows how to make > this particular potion. Any thoughts? > bboy_mn: I'm not a strong believer in Snape acting with a hidden agenda with regard to teaching Harry. If you annoy the hell out of someone while making a subtle indirect point, they will inevitably remember the annoyance and forget the point. Stress is not a good teacher. > Jen questions continue: > > 6) Umbridge makes much of the `lies' told to the students, but never > confronts Harry that he started the rumor. Why? > bboy_mn: Umbridge is perpetrating propaganda. It is not her job, to deal directly with Harry and his story, but to actively and vigorously promote the 'party line'. People like this don't debate or discuss because that puts them in the position of having to prove and defend their belief system, instead, they set down their view as absolute fact, and don't let the truth get in their way. I get into this same thing in discussion with religious fanatics, they will do anything to avoid a direct discussion of the issues. They will use redirection, misdirection, feint deafness, and generally avoid the truth and the facts like the plague. They tirelessly fall back on the same of trite phrases and party-line positions, and never seem to general an original thought. It is very much to Umbridges disadvantage to discuss and debate, so she lays down the law with absolute authority and hold to the party line, no matter how irrational it may be. > Jen questions continue: > > 7) Why does McGonagall warn Harry that misbehavior is Umbridge's > class will cost more than a few detentions? What does she think he > will lose? > bboy_mn: As a reader, we know that Umbridge is capable of extreme acts of violence. Sending the Dementors after Harry would have done a lot more damage than Cutting-Quill detention; it would have destroyed him. McGonnall is smart enough to know that Umbridge is dangerous, and as her authority grows, her danger grows. There is nothing more dangerous than a rabid and slightly sadistic fanatic with too much power. If Harry doesn't watch his step, he could be expelled and/or sent to prison and/or sustain great bodily harm, and/or much much more. No matter how sweet the music, it's always best not to dance with the devil. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 02:06:33 2004 From: sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com (sarcasticmuppet) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 02:06:33 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black theory...not my own! And question about the dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91234 > Which begs the question, why hasn't Harry asked where his parents are > buried? > > MaggieB people who have been AKed have no physical wounds, that's true, but the explosion from Voldemort's rebounded curse on Harry was enough to blow up the entire house...I don't think poor Lilly and James's remains had a chance. I think it's safe to assume that they were creamated in the blast. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 19 02:07:42 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 02:07:42 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > Sue chiming in: > I have trouble with this whole "Snape is teaching Harry by ridiculing > him to make sure he remembers" thing. As a teacher, I always knew > that if I wanted to get my point across I better be sure that the kid > in question knew what my point was. I don't think Harry remembers > much of anything from potions, especially on his first day of > Hogwarts, except that Snape hates his guts. In other words, Snape > was not making the point about beazors, he was making the point that > he couldn't stand Harry. > IMHO, his ridicule is simply that, ridicule, with no > other purpose other than to humiliate the recipiant. I do think > there is something to your belief about the draught of peace, he > didn't just ridicule Harry, he made him read the directions, and > write about it that night. In this particular case Snape really does > seem to be trying to make sure Harry knows this potion. > > There are probably other examples when the follow up is indeed > teaching, but there seem to more times when there is no follow up > what so ever. Honesty, it seems to me Snape doesn't give a darn > whether Harry learns potions or not and he certainly doesn't seem to > want Harry back in NEWT potions (though IMHO, he will be). I don't > think he is doing anything other than flexing his "I am the adult, > you are the kid and I can do whatever I want" muscles whenever Harry > is around most of the time. > > Sue, who has spent way too much time trying to compose this post and > now feels more conflicted about Severus Snape than ever. Siriusly Snapey Susan: Former high school teacher myself, Sue. I never ridiculed, either; don't believe it's an effective means of teaching, as a rule. But while I think Severus is truly gifted with potions, I think he has his definite failings as a teacher. Just because ridicule isn't the best way of ensuring a student learns doesn't mean it's not what Snape would choose to try. You may be right that in the first day/first class situation, he wasn't trying to make sure Harry remembered those things. We won't really know 'til we see if they come into play in books 6 or 7. Alternatively, it could be *JKR* who wants *us* to remember. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Thu Feb 19 02:19:01 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:19:01 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Regulus Black theory...not my own! And question about the dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040219150917.0421a810@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 91237 At 15:06 19/02/2004, you wrote: >sarcasticmuppet wrote > >people who have been AKed have no physical wounds, that's true, but >the explosion from Voldemort's rebounded curse on Harry was enough to >blow up the entire house...I don't think poor Lilly and James's >remains had a chance. I think it's safe to assume that they were >creamated in the blast. Tanya here That is a good theory, but I have a question about it, how does this segment fit? A direct segment from POA page 306. "Harry... I as good as killed them," he croaked. "I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret-Keeper instead of me.... I'm to blame, I know it.... The night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was still safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone. Yet there was no sign of a struggle. It didn't feel right. I was scared. I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies... I realized what Peter must've done... what I'd done...." His voice broke. He turned away. "Enough of this," said Lupin, and there was a steely note in his voice Harry had never heard before. "There's one certain way to prove what really happened. Ron, give me that rat." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From smaragdina5 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 02:25:42 2004 From: smaragdina5 at yahoo.com (smaragdina5) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 02:25:42 -0000 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > It also makes me wonder who was acting fishy in OOP- Wormtail was > nowhere to be seen in the whole book, where was he? I believe this is discussed after Galadriel W.'s New Clues book (a discussion board is on mugglenet.com), and the conclusion to some clues is that G.W. thinks (I think!) that Wormtail had Percy under the Imperius curse at some times, and at other times there was a polyjuiced Percy, and Wormtail also tailed the giants across France and lost track of them. That is, that's what some of us THINK the clues mean. Guess we'll have to wait for G.W.'s full edition to say whether that is what she thought (though she does post to that board occasionally). Betta smaragdina From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Feb 19 02:47:52 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 02:47:52 -0000 Subject: Everyday Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91239 "potioncat" wrote: >SNIP> I'm also re-reading and I > think it was CoS he gets in trouble for tracking mud into the > castle. Why in Merlin's name didn't he evanesco it away before he > came inside in the first place! > ------ Even still--why would playing Quidditch make you get muddy? Isn't mud unique to the *ground*? Er--aren't they on *brooms*--which, correct me ifI'm wrong, put you in the AIR!?!?!? Now *that's* always bugged me! Arya From sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 03:03:11 2004 From: sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com (sarcasticmuppet) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 03:03:11 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black theory...not my own! And question about the dead In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040219150917.0421a810@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91240 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > At 15:06 19/02/2004, you wrote: > > >sarcasticmuppet wrote > > > >people who have been AKed have no physical wounds, that's true, but > >the explosion from Voldemort's rebounded curse on Harry was enough to > >blow up the entire house...I don't think poor Lilly and James's > >remains had a chance. I think it's safe to assume that they were > >creamated in the blast. > > > Tanya here > > That is a good theory, but I have a question about it, how does this > segment fit? A direct segment from POA page 306. > > "Harry... I as good as killed them," he croaked. "I persuaded Lily and > James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him > as Secret-Keeper instead of me.... I'm to blame, I know it.... The night > they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was still safe, > but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone. Yet there was no sign > of a struggle. It didn't feel right. I was scared. I set out for your > parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and > their bodies... I realized what Peter must've done... what I'd done...." > His voice broke. He turned away. > "Enough of this," said Lupin, and there was a steely note in his voice > Harry had never heard before. "There's one certain way to prove what > really happened. Ron, give me that rat." > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] me again: I doubt that Sirius saw James-and-Lilly shaped piles of ashes on the floor, so I concede that the canon is against me on this point. It just doesn't make any sense, IMHO. Petunia maintains in book one that Lilly and James got "blown up." Here's another thought: I think it's somewhat safe to assume that Harry was the epicenter of Exploding!Potter Household, as the curse backfired on his forehead. If that's the case then Lilly's body must certainly have been incinerated. She died holding Harry in her arms, and was therefore closest to the blast. James, on the other hand, could have avoided cremation, as he was distracting Voldie at a different location of the house (or even outside it). Then again, they managed to find remains of the Challenger astronauts, so who knows, maybe Sirius showed up at Godric's Hollow and did a "Accio James! Accio Lilly!" and then found something... --sarcasticmuppet, who thinks she is being a bit too morbid. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 03:42:52 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 03:42:52 -0000 Subject: Everyday Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91241 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > <<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Hunt" > wrote:...Hermione immediately comes to mind as someone who uses > everyday magic quite often. She starts fires, repairs glasses, > bewitches knitting needles, unlocks doors, clears footprints, etc. > Harry comes springing to mind as one who rarely uses everyday magic. > Is there a reason for it... > > Then "potioncat" replied:...I think he also leaves the cap off the > toothpaste, his wet towel on the floor and his dirty clothes beside > the hamper...>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says > Harry's a boy and Hermione's a girl. Hermione is also a teacher's pet > and a class brain. Anytime she learns anything new she's going to > work it to death before she adds it to her repertory. Harry, like Ron > or any other regular boy, remembers things as longs as he needs to in > order to pass the exam. Then he forgets about it until some crisis > brings it to the front of his mind. > > --JDR Well, that was almost going to be my point. I was going to say that Harry is a teenager. A teenage boy specifically. And most teenagers, boys and girls, oftentimes overlook simple solutions to problems simply because those simple solutions never occur to them. I have teenage siblings (and am only about six months removed from being one myself) and can vouch for the fact that common sense does not grow on trees, or in the minds of teens. Meri From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Feb 19 03:53:14 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 03:53:14 -0000 Subject: Everyday Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91242 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Hunt" wrote: > During a current re-read of the series (I'm about 2/3 through OotP, > now), several little things have occurred to me. The one I currently > can't get out of my head concerns the use of everyday magic by some > characters. On the other hand, why does poor Mr. Filch have to mop up mud and scrub frog brains off ceilings when someone else could just magick the mess away? Seems like he could be given something else to do. Potioncat From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Feb 19 04:06:39 2004 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:06:39 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 2 Maddening Questions Message-ID: <89.3c5461b.2d65904f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91243 In a message dated 2/18/2004 7:42:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net writes: > wrote: > > >#2- WHY WHY WHY didn't Harry say anything about that digusting, > >revolting, macabre quill of Professor Toads and the detentions? > Why > >didn't he go see McGonagall or ANYONE? > > Cassie said: > <>Perhaps he constantly wants to prove himself--even to > himself.<> > > The sorting hat pointed this out in SS "...nice thirst to prove > yourself, now that is interesting...." Cassie again: Ah, yes. I had forgotten about that bit. But what I'm thinking of is motive. Is this 'thirst' fueled by the same thing now that it was in his first year? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Feb 19 04:15:42 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 04:15:42 -0000 Subject: Filk: What I Did For Fudge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91244 What I Did For Fudge To the tune of What I Did for Love, from A Chorus Line MIDI at: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/8849/Moviemusicals/Resu me/One.htm#songs Dedicated to Annemehr UMBRIDGE Kiss my job goodbye, The privilege and the power Now out seeking interviews But I can't regret What I did for Fudge, What I did for Fudge. Said, "Hey, kid, don't lie, Defiance I'll devour!" But my quill could not cut through Lovegood's bad gazette What it did to Fudge, What it did to Fudge. MOM, ministers for MOM, Who thought Voldy gone, Found they were in error Dumbledore did fly I was atop the tower Chance to run Hogwarts I blew Though upset, can't regret What I did for Fudge, UMBRIDGE and CHORUS What I did for Fudge. UMBRIDGE What I did for-- UMBRIDGE and CHORUS Fudge . MOM, ministers for MOM, Who thought Voldy gone, Found they were in error UMBRIDGE and CHORUS (antiphonally) Told Hogwarts goodbye As Peeves made me/her to cower Through the entrance hall I/she flew CHORUS This brunette can't regret What she did for Fudge, UMBRIDGE What I did for Fudge. PEEVES What she did for Fudge... (PEEVES observes an appropriate moment of stillness as the music subsides, before he begins whacking UMBRIDGE with a chalk-filled sock & McGonagall's walking stick. Exeunt omnes.) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From elfundeb at comcast.net Thu Feb 19 04:10:28 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:10:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How did Fudge/Snape know about Dementors AND Chap. 12 Discussion References: Message-ID: <006101c3f69e$4eeb1240$5902a8c0@Belkin> No: HPFGUIDX 91245 wrote: > Near the end of PoA, how, if Snape was knocked out when the > dementors went after Harry, did he, and/or Fudge know that the > dementors had tried to Kiss Harry? > > Talking to Fudge outside the hospital ward, Snape says something along > the lines of not knowing what drove the dementors back, that by the > time he came to, they were retreating, which suggests that he didn't > actually see the dementor attempt to kiss Harry, and therefore that he > did not know the details of the attack, or was even aware of anything > that had happened. As I read the scene, *before* H/H use the time-turner Snape and Fudge only question why the Dementors retreated. Snape saw enough to know that it must have been the Dementors that caused the three (Harry, Hermione and Sirius) to become unconscious; Snape knows what a Dementor's effects are (he wants to be the DADA professor, after all) so he puts two and two together as only Snape can, but he can't figure out why they didn't finish the deed, because he didn't see the Patronus. It's only *after* H/H return from their time-turner adventures that Fudge mentions administering the Kiss on an unconscious boy. And this time, Fudge and Snape enter the hospital wing *with* Dumbledore, who we know has spoken with Sirius (he did so before sending H/H time-traveling). Sirius was right next to Harry (Harry had just grabbed his arm) when the Dementor put his clammy hands around Harry's neck. Thus, Sirius could have told Dumbledore what had happened. Also, Dumbledore had time to tell Fudge what had happened without being omniscient at all. He had time to tell Fudge, because Harry and Hermione had time to eat several chocolate bars before they returned. And Dumbledore had the motivation to tell as well, in order to get Fudge to remove the Dementor guard from Hogwarts. Dorapye also suggested: OR: Fudge saw Harry and Hermione running towards Sirius and watched the Dementors surround all three, and saw the one Dementor swoop on Harry to perform the Kiss. Debbie: While I think the simplest explanation is the most likely, I think this is more likely than Dumbledore being omniscient. I believe that Fudge knows Sirius is innocent -- he tells the other professors in The Three Broomsticks that "we" modified the memories of the Muggle witnesses -- and that he used the capture of Sirius as a springboard for his own political advancement. Why else would he be in such a hurry to administer the Kiss to Sirius? And in this scene, when Harry yells out that Pettigrew faked his own death, Fudge responds with "a small smile on his face" and proceeds to undermine Harry's credibility. It's the same smile -- described as "curious" and "strange" -- that he wears in GoF in "The Parting of the Ways" when he tries to discredit Harry's assertion that Voldemort has returned. If Fudge knows the truth, he'd want to take great pains to suppress it now that he has the opportunity to get rid of Harry once and for all. Jen Reese raised more Fudge questions in the OOP Ch. 12 discussion: You know, after re-reading this chapter, it surprises me Umbridge and Fudge didn't target Harry from the beginning to get to Dumbledore. Why did they want Harry out of Hogwarts, knowing their strategy would be to undermine DD over the course of the year? Divide and conquer, I guess, but they obviously don't view Harry as the threat, only Dumbeldore (so again, why get Harry out of Hogwarts?). Oh, unless they *are* targeting Harry to get to Dumbledore by staging the courtroom drama. It doesn't seem staged though, and Fudge didn't appear to get anything from the proceedings. Debbie: As I see it, the hearing was one more attack in the war against Harry's reputation. Fudge needed to discredit him in order to maintain his position that Voldemort had not returned. After Umbridge conveniently staged the Dementor attack, Fudge took over the hearing process. I've always assumed that he turned it into a full Wizengamot proceeding because he perceived Amelia Bones as too sympathetic, and that he changed the time of the hearing with the intent of keeping Dumbledore from acting as Harry's advocate at the hearing. Thus, while I believe Fudge attempted to orchestrate the hearing, the presence of Dumbledore (as well as Amelia Bones) kept that from happening. So, in short, I don't think Fudge was using Harry to get to Dumbledore. At least at the hearing. He's got plenty of reason to get Harry as well as Dumbledore, since both are espousing truths Fudge wants everyone to believe are the ludicrous ideas of addled old men and criminally inclined young boys. Debbie who loved Naama's post on Harry the martyr [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 19 04:45:20 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 04:45:20 -0000 Subject: 2 Maddening Questions In-Reply-To: <65.22aea20a.2d6514ab@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91246 Cassie: Though it brings up an interesting thought: Harry never turns to an adult for help. Except for Sirius, of course. Perhaps he constantly wants to prove himself--even to himself. Bookworm: My take on this is that Harry has been conditioned to think there is no one he can go to for help. Even though he has been at Hogwarts for five years, those first 11 years ? well, 10 actually ? with the Dursleys would have been imprinted on his psyche. And when no one tells him anything after the graveyard scene, it only reinforces what he has known his whole life ? he can't count on anyone else for help, except Ron and Hermione who urged him to tell someone. Ravenclaw Bookworm From silmariel at telefonica.net Thu Feb 19 10:07:13 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:07:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA Plot does not work. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200402191107.13742.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 91247 > silmariel: > She's only using a timeline, but I don't agree that implies by default that > two Harry's had *always* been there. Determinism is not a necessity for PoA > to be explained. As a reference, 'The End of Eternity' by Asimov plays with > a unique timeline being rewrited multiple times. > Sherrie replied: > But as Heinlein points out, that doesn't change the original timeline - it > merely creates an *alternate* timeline, which branches from the original at a given crux. (See NUMBER OF THE BEAST and THE CAT WHO WALKED THROUGH > WALLS, among others.) So what? Heinlein plays with multiple, Asimov in TEoE with one. That does not mean that any author has to use Heinlein's theories. I've read those two ones, I'll include 'Time Enough for Love' and 'Job: a comedy of Justice'. However, the characters from 'All You Zombies' only know a timeline, and they can't escape from it. > The trouble is in perception - because we read the incident twice, we think > of it as having occurred twice, when really, there was only one unique > incident, which we are seeing from two different points of Harryvision. I know, really, I don't see the PoA timeline trough Harry's eyes > Harry was there twice, yes - but it only *happened* once, and the presence of both sets of H&H was necessary for it TO happen. That's a way of seeing it. Other is that it happened an undeterminated number of times but we are told only what Harry remembers, the last rewrite of the timeline. For further disscusions, I'd point you to my posts on timelines (a few months ago). By that time, Talisman wrote a clarifying post called 'Time and the Uber-Kitchen' and Steve explained how Hermione aged. I wish I could provide you with post numbers. If you can't find them, I'll do it when I have time. Right know I'm awfully busy. > (For a story showing this > a bit more clearly, I guess, try Harlan Ellison's "One Life, Furnished In > Early Poverty".) Ok, I'll try. What about Fritz Leiber? I love his treatment of time. silmariel From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Feb 19 10:41:43 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:41:43 -0000 Subject: a maddening question of my own In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hitomi" > wrote: > > dj_bagshaw wrote: > > > In CoS, we learn that Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts for > > > "opening the chamber of secrets". Now that his name has been > > > cleared, why is he still not allowed to practice and/or learn > > > magic? If it was all a misunderstanding (as it turns out it > > > was), why can't he have a wand again? > > > People accept that Hagrid is innocent but there has yet to be a public > hearing to officially reverse the ruling against him. Unofficially, > Hagrid can do all the magic he wants, but OFFICIALLY, there is still a > legal ruling against him. I suspect that the Ministry was even willing > to look the other way until the recent paranoid conflict between the > Ministry and Dumbledore came into being. Now, the Ministry is looking > for any excuse to come down on Dumbledore and his supporters, which > means that Hagrid once again has to be careful. > > That legal ruling against him needs to be overturned, and personally, > I wish they would get it over with, so we can move on. > Hagrid may be innocent of the original charge against him *but* he was guilty of obtaining and breeding an Acromantula - defined as Class A Non-Tradeable Goods - for which there are severe penalties according to FBaWTFT. If the full story of Tom opening the Chamber came out then so could this little snippet. Judging by Dolly's attitude towards Hagrid the MoM would leap on it like a starving wolf on to raw steak and Hagrid would get further punishment; this time for something he did do. Kneasy From bumchum22 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 18 22:41:45 2004 From: bumchum22 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Sharada?=) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:41:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apparition & Fidelius Charm Message-ID: <20040218224145.10179.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91249 Hi, I have not mailed the group, I guess as I am a reader more. But this one intrigued me too much and I wish to share my view on it as well. Fidelius Charm is a form of secret keeping and the secret is stored in one person. The secret and the secrecy is revealed to whoever only if the carrier of the fidelius charm wishes to. This, to my understanding, and I am sorry I dont have the books to refer to at this point of time, means that the place or the substance or the secrecy is not revealed by anyone else. In support to it, if Harry was to tell this address anyone else, they would either not remember what he says, or words dont come out of Harry or the most probable being, they will not be able to find the place. But I still feel he just won't be able to say or write(saying comes out as different words or sounds and writing probably same way or invisible).I think in Oop, it says even though Kreacher could not say the location of the order and its activities as he is under fidelius charm, he could still reveal usefull information. So this makes me very sure that, by no means can the information go out through anyone but the secret keeper in a comprehendable way. I hope I was clear I my views above. Any questions mail me. So, by her mere genius, or through intelligence of some DE, if Bellatrix did find out that no. 12 Grimmauld place was the headquarters, I am sure she will not be able to go inside(even with Kreacher's help or following anyone). Apparition.(Again, everything is only my view). Apparition can be done with others(holding others) and disappear. But I am sure that the Potters didnt do it to risk their sons life. As p\mentioned earlier, I think you will need highly experience, powerfull wizards and witches to do it. But there are other ways of disappearing,like what Dumbledore did after his fight with Mom in his office. He didnt and couldnt have apparated as it cannot be done in the grounds of Hogwarts(Hogwarts, A History). So Voldemort could have used these means to get out with Bellatrix. The members would have apparated to the house, HQ of the order if it had been possible. May be once inside you could do it, but not from outside. Or just that JKR has not mentioned it and it might still be possible. Harry's Fav. --------------------------------- How much mail storage do you get for free? Yahoo! Mail gives you 6MB! Get Yahoo! Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SFischer at Hunter.COM Wed Feb 18 22:48:58 2004 From: SFischer at Hunter.COM (Fischer, Shari) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:48:58 -0600 Subject: 2 Maddening Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91250 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theultimatesen" wrote: > Ok... These two questions have really really bugged me constantly. > > #1- In SS, *why* did Hermione lie to McGonagall and say she read > about the trolls and thought she could take them on? What was wrong > with telling her the truth? > > #2- WHY WHY WHY didn't Harry say anything about that digusting, > revolting, macabre quill of Professor Toads and the detentions? > Why didn't he go see McGonagall or ANYONE? Shari writes: #1 - I thought Hermione was embarrassed about having been in there crying and didn't want the teachers to know she had a moment of weakness. Saying she thought she could take on a troll would at least make her look, at worst, overconfident. #2 - Everyone in the wizarding world was making fun of Harry, thinking he was crazy for saying Voldemort was back. Most likely, he knew they wouldn't believe him if he told anyone about Umbridge's punishment, either, and she took advantage of the situation. That made me wonder if she knew actually knew Voldemort was back, instead of being just, plain mean. I also wondered if it was supposed to make him realize that it would be in his best interest to have 'back-up' in future confrontations with Voldemort. Shari - who can imagine Umbridge and Bellatrix hanging out together on a Saturday night. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ahtrap at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 05:21:40 2004 From: ahtrap at yahoo.com (Partha Mukhopadhyay) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:21:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: how Harry finally beats LV In-Reply-To: <1077142933.10317.75196.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040219052140.76101.qmail@web61009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91251 Lizvega: >I agree with the theory that Harry will not use AK to >kill LV, partly because, like you said, I don't think >he'll be able to harness the joy in killing that is >required to perform the spell. I think it was Carol who chimed in on this with a thought about how cold-bloodedness, if not joy in killing might also act as an activation threshold for a successful use of AK. Both points noted, but I think that there has to be other ways to 'achieve' AK. That's partly due to the job descriptions of Aurors, and I'm guessing Magical Law Enforcement/Trained Hit Wizard types, some of who were authorized, at least at the height of the first Voldemort War, to use any weapon at their disposal, including AK, to take out DEs. I'd hate to think they gained their ability to successfully use the most unforgiveable of all the curses from either a joy of killing, or sheer cold-bloodedness (although I'm sure that was the case for some of them). Rather, I think that there was something of a "gotta do what you gotta do" attitude/steel behind the acts *committed* by the *good* guys during that first war. (As has been mentioned, that attitude might explain Wormtail's ability to dispatch of Cedric of GoF - he did what he had to do under the circumstances.) Given that, I don't see why JKR couldn't have Harry take out LV through the use of AK; at that point of the conflict, it's possible, maybe even likely, that Harry and Voldemort will be in an all or nothing situation. It'll be Harry and everything *good*, standing against Voldemort and a *certain* reign of evil terror (not just mere terror, mind you, it has to be the evil kind). And Harry has exhibited flashes of a pure rage of the kind that I can certainly see fueling a successful AK, on multiple occasions. Under those circumstances....I can see it happening. I can easily imagine Harry using the last and worst, and most importantly, only defense against the monstrosity that is Voldemort. The only question then would be: having survived a rebounded AK curse once, when he tried and failed to kill Harry as a baby, how would Voldemort fare against a killing curse successfully directed at him from the wand of another wizard? Partha __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From oogems7 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 06:35:17 2004 From: oogems7 at yahoo.com (oogems7) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:35:17 -0000 Subject: Cedric's Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91252 I just completed a reread of OotP, and although I enjoyed the greater amount of insight we had into the WW, some of the plot leaves me...less then happy. I'll start with Cedric's death. Harry is found holding Cedric's dead body in the maze. I'm assuming that the ministry has some way of telling if he died of AK, so why did they try to explain it away with a 'tragic accident.' We know that Harry was no longer popular in the WW and that the justice system is a joke, so why did no one raise any questions into how Cedric died. Why didn't Tommy instruct Malfoy to raise some questions publicly? That seemed a perfect way to get Harry out from under Albus's control. Did Tommy's affair with the prophecy, blind him to a better way to remove Harry form Hogwart's? Even if Albus hid Harry, removing him from Hogwart's and the WW would still would have been a sucsess. Oogems From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 19 11:13:29 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:13:29 -0000 Subject: Cedric's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91253 Oogems wrote: > Why didn't Tommy instruct Malfoy to raise some questions > publicly? That seemed a perfect way to get Harry out from under > Albus's control. Did Tommy's affair with the prophecy, blind him > to a better way to remove Harry from Hogwart's? Even if Albus hid > Harry, removing him from Hogwart's and the WW would still would > have been a success. > Pip!Squeak: Priori Incantantum. If Tom Riddle had instructed Malfoy to raise questions, the first question asked would probably be 'could I have your wand, Harry'. Then a quick check would prove that it wasn't Harry's wand that cast the AK. End of case. The reason the whole kangaroo court could go ahead in OOP was that Harry *had* cast a patronus - his wand would have proved that he had. Both sides were entirely agreed that Harry had cast the patronus, they were just arguing about whether he was justified in so doing under the provisions of the Underage Magic Act. Pip!Squeak From sophierom at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 13:36:08 2004 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:36:08 -0000 Subject: Cedric's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > Oogems wrote: > > > Why didn't Tommy instruct Malfoy to raise some questions > > publicly? That seemed a perfect way to get Harry out from under > > Albus's control. Did Tommy's affair with the prophecy, blind him > > to a better way to remove Harry from Hogwart's? Even if Albus hid > > Harry, removing him from Hogwart's and the WW would still would > > have been a success. > > Pip!Squeak responds: > Priori Incantantum. > > If Tom Riddle had instructed Malfoy to raise questions, the first > question asked would probably be 'could I have your wand, Harry'. > Then a quick check would prove that it wasn't Harry's wand that cast > the AK. End of case. > Sophierom: I think Pip!Squeak makes a good point about why Harry couldn't be framed for Cedric's death. But I also think that Oogems has a good point: LV's actions in OOtP don't make sense. Well, of course they don't make sense (he's the villain), but what I mean is that they don't make sense in the context of the story arc. This is only book 5 of the series. Yet, at the end of OotP, LV is on the run; he looks down and out! I would think that he should be stronger at this point, or at least strong enough to be in a deadlock with the Order. But it seems that the Order now has the upper hand: they've regained control of the Ministry (and thus the Daily Prophet, mouthpiece to the people?); Harry is now more informed about his role in this whole affair, and so he's less likely to make a risky move like the one he pulled in OotP; and while the Order suffered a saddening loss with the death of Sirius, Sirius wasn't as instrumental in the order as say Dumbledore, Snape, or even Arthur, as all the latter had more active roles in fighting LV. This all makes me think that Book 6 will take a wild turn, that by the end of Book 6, the fortunes of the Order will be almost completely reversed. Perhaps Dumbledore will die and/or LV will stage some horrific scene of destruction which will make the majority of the WW too frightened to act against him. Otherwise, I just don't see how Book 7 can have enough tension in the plot. But hey, I'm certainly no genius at plotting stories, and JKR is brilliant at it, so what do I know? But to bring my long winded response full circle, I guess I say all this to agree with Oogems: the plot of OotP seemed off balance, at least compared to the previous books. Maybe there are just too many unanswered questions at this point and the plot will fare better once seen as Book 5 of 7 instead of Book 5 of 5. What do you all think? Sophierom From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 19 14:15:30 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:15:30 -0000 Subject: Papa Snape (was: Re: Secret Agent!Snape [Was "a question"]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91255 Carol wrote: << But that father of his (Snape's) was a Dark Wizard for sure and may well have been a DE.>> Sigune here: I am not going to say that I'm sure you will be proved wrong, Carol, but I wanted to point out that there is a distinct possibility that a man can bully his wife without necessarily being a Dark Wizard. I guess I am all for grey characters :). Just my two Knuts, though. Yours severely, Sigune From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Feb 19 14:39:30 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:39:30 -0000 Subject: Papa Snape (was: Re: Secret Agent!Snape [Was "a question"]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91256 > Carol wrote: > << But that father of his (Snape's) was a Dark Wizard for sure and may well have been a DE.>> > Sigune wrote >I'm not going to say that I'm sure you will be proved wrong, Carol, > but I wanted to point out that there is a distinct possibility >that a man can bully his wife without necessarily being a Dark >Wizard. I guess I am all for grey characters :). I think we've heard rumors about Snape's school days. We've seen glances at isolated memories. We've made assumptions and deductions. JKR is more than likey going to somehow turn this around into something surprising. As far as the crying child memory, I really love the fact that people have seen it very differently. Was the bad man yelling at the woman or was the man yelling at the bad woman? Was the child Severus or was the man Severus? I can't wait to see what surprises JKR has for us! Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Feb 19 14:58:43 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:58:43 -0000 Subject: How did Fudge/Snape know about Dementors attacking HP in PoA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91257 > "Partha Mukhopadhyay" wrote: > > My question is this: > > Near the end of PoA, how, if Snape was knocked out when the > > dementors went after Harry, did he, and/or Fudge know that the > > dementors had tried to Kiss Harry? > > > Carol wrote: > Sorry, no answers, just a similar question: How did Snape in OoP knew > that Harry and Hermione had gone into the forest with Umbridge? Good questions. Either JKR didn't really have the behind the scenes action fleshed out, or it wasn't important enough to pass on to us. But, just for laughs, can you imagine Snape going back to Umbridge's office and finding his young Slytherins tied up? I'd love to see that interaction! Of course, we don't know that he did. I also wonder, as backgroud to story, if he overheard Umbridge planning to use the cruciatus curse on Harry? I assume that if Hermione hadn't saved the day, he would have stepped back in and not appeared to rescue Harry? Then again, this is "Harry Potter and...." not "The Adventures of Severus Snape." Potioncat From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 15:35:34 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:35:34 -0000 Subject: AK and victims' remains In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oogems7" wrote: > Harry is found holding Cedric's dead body in the maze. Julie: I have been away for a few days, so I was catching up on some posts of interest. I read this right after reading about the posts about James and Lilly's remains. The AK could not have cremated them, or Harry would not be holding Cedric's dead body. He would not have had a body to hold onto while going back through the portkey. Do we have any canon evidence, other than Petunia's "got herself blown up" comment that there actually were no remains of James and Lilly? Regardless of the answer "yes remains" "no remains" my question is this: Any speculations as to how this would play into the plot of the septology? It could be we don't kow because we don't need to know...it has no plot value. Just curious. From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 15:50:09 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:50:09 -0000 Subject: a maddening question of my own In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hitomi" > > wrote: > > > dj_bagshaw wrote: > > > > In CoS, we learn that Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts for > > > > "opening the chamber of secrets". Now that his name has been > > > > cleared, why is he still not allowed to practice and/or learn > > > > magic? If it was all a misunderstanding (as it turns out it > > > > was), why can't he have a wand again? > > > > > > People accept that Hagrid is innocent but there has yet to be a public > > hearing to officially reverse the ruling against him. Unofficially, > > Hagrid can do all the magic he wants, but OFFICIALLY, there is still a > > legal ruling against him. I suspect that the Ministry was even willing > > to look the other way until the recent paranoid conflict between the > > Ministry and Dumbledore came into being. Now, the Ministry is looking > > for any excuse to come down on Dumbledore and his supporters, which > > means that Hagrid once again has to be careful. > > > > That legal ruling against him needs to be overturned, and personally, > > I wish they would get it over with, so we can move on. > > > > LizVega here: I'm not sure if this has been covered, I'm jumping in a little late on this one. But, in COS Hagrid was sent to Azkaban by Fudge. After Harry and Co. return from the Chamber of Secrets, doesn't DD tell Ron to send a letter for Hagrid's release? If Fudge was the one to put Hagrid in Azkaban, surely it must've been him who released him, DD couldn't have just done that. So, if he was released, wouldn't there have been some kind of reversal of the former sentencing? I've been reading the posts that suggest that Hagrid simply returned to Hogwarts, no questions asked. That doesn't make sense, IMHO, anyway. LizVega From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 15:50:36 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:50:36 -0000 Subject: Monitoring of Harry's magic outside Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91260 We all know that the MoM monitors the use of magic by underage wizards outside of Hogwarts, and that Harry gets "owled at" about it. One of the charges was "the use of a hover charm at 4 Privet Drive" in CoS. However, Harry did not use the hover charm; Dobby did. So my questions: 1) Can the MoM only detect that magic was performed but not by whom, thus assuming it could only be Harry? 2) Can the MoM not detect the power/presence of House Elves? If the latter is the case, would that not be very useful if the House Elves enter the war? Also, speaking of Dobby, he can apparate into and out of Hogwarts, even though as Hermione points out he is not supposed to do. Julie From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 16:19:49 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:19:49 -0000 Subject: how Harry finally beats LV In-Reply-To: <20040219052140.76101.qmail@web61009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91261 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Partha Mukhopadhyay wrote: > > > The only question then would be: having survived a > rebounded AK curse once, when he tried and failed to > kill Harry as a baby, how would Voldemort fare against > a killing curse successfully directed at him from the > wand of another wizard? > > Partha > > Major snip! LizVega here: Some have argued that is why DD had the look of 'triumph' in his eye at the end of GOF. The blood LV used making him 'human-enough' to die. If it can be done, with another's wand, I wonder whose Harry would use? > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Feb 19 16:49:03 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:49:03 -0000 Subject: AK and victims' remains In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91262 "drjuliehoward" wrote: I have been away for a few days, so I was catching up on some posts of interest. I read this right after reading about the posts about James and Lilly's remains. The AK could not have cremated them, or Harry would not be holding Cedric's dead body. He would not have had a body to hold onto while going back through the portkey. Do we have any canon evidence, other than Petunia's "got herself blown up" comment that there actually were no remains of James and Lilly? Regardless of the answer "yes remains" "no remains" my question is this: Any speculations as to how this would play into the plot of the septology? It could be we don't kow because we don't need to know...it has no plot value. Just curious. -------------------- In PS: Hagrid says about Harry's scar: "That's what yeh get when a Powerful, evil curse touches yeh -- took care of yer mum an' dad an' yer house, even -- but it didn't work on you, an' that's why yer famous, Harry." A few paragraphs later, Harry asks about money, saying: "But if their house was destroyed --" and then Hagrid tells him: "They didn' keep their gold in the house, boy! Nah, first stop fer us is Gringotts. Wizards' bank. Have a sausage, they're not bad cold -- an' I wouldn' say no teh a bit o' yer birthday cake, neither." On a second note about what happens to the remains of others like Cedric who do leave a corpse--well, I think we ought look at what Voldemort's followers a recalled--**Death Eaters**. I'm sure if this means they set up a buffet and snack on the remains or if it's more spiritual or even the theiving of the magical essances of theose they kill, but they're called Death Eaters for a reason. Also, this notion is echoed in the incantation for the Dark Mark--"Morsmordre". It literally translates to "Eat Death". Arya From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Feb 19 16:56:59 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:56:59 -0000 Subject: Monitoring of Harry's magic outside Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91263 "drjuliehoward" wrote: > We all know that the MoM monitors the use of magic by underage > wizards outside of Hogwarts, and that Harry gets "owled at" about > it. One of the charges was "the use of a hover charm at 4 Privet > Drive" in CoS. However, Harry did not use the hover charm; Dobby > did. So my questions: > 1) Can the MoM only detect that magic was performed but not by whom, thus assuming it could only be Harry?-------- ---------------- I don't think this is true because we see Tonks use sock-folding, trunk-packing and owl-cage cleaning charms in Harry's room before he flys off with his guard in OotP. Another note on this I recently saw when reading the letter from Mafalda Hopkirk, the notice only says that *spells* are not to be performed by underage wizards. It doesn't say *magic* is monitored. Hmm, I could go on for a bit about this but I'd need the books to see the exact quotes. Arya From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 18:03:44 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:03:44 -0000 Subject: AK and victims' remains In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91264 > -------------------- > In PS: > Hagrid says about Harry's scar: "That's what yeh get when a Powerful, > evil curse touches yeh -- took care of yer mum an' dad an' yer house, > even -- but it didn't work on you, an' that's why yer famous, Harry." > A few paragraphs later, Harry asks about money, saying: "But if their > house was destroyed --" and then Hagrid tells him: "They didn' keep > their gold in the house, boy! Nah, first stop fer us is Gringotts. > Wizards' bank. Have a sausage, they're not bad cold -- an' I wouldn' > say no teh a bit o' yer birthday cake, neither." > > On a second note about what happens to the remains of others like > Cedric who do leave a corpse--well, I think we ought look at what > Voldemort's followers a recalled--**Death Eaters**. I'm sure if this > means they set up a buffet and snack on the remains or if it's more > spiritual or even the theiving of the magical essances of theose they > kill, but they're called Death Eaters for a reason. Also, this > notion is echoed in the incantation for the Dark Mark-- "Morsmordre". > It literally translates to "Eat Death". > > Arya I do recall what Hagrid said, but that still does not answer the question of their bodies. Also, I have been intrigued by why they are called "Death Eaters" but do not think literal cannabilism is implied. I thought it was more that they "live off death"...that is, their focus on destroying those they deem unworthy gives them their la joie de vie. Julie (who thought of a funny Death "eating" scene with Lucious Malfoy but decided that the humor was too dark to post) From Ali at zymurgy.org Thu Feb 19 19:26:27 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:26:27 -0000 Subject: AK and victims' remains In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" wrote: >> > I do recall what Hagrid said, but that still does not answer the > question of their bodies. Also, I have been intrigued by why they > are called "Death Eaters" but do not think literal cannabilism is > implied. I thought it was more that they "live off death"...that > is, their focus on destroying those they deem unworthy gives them > their la joie de vie.<<< LOON to the rescue: In PoA p. 268 UK edition, Sirius states: "When I saw their house, destroyed, *and their bodies* - I realised what Peter must have done." This doesn't answer the question how the house was destroyed or what became of James' and Lily's bodies. But, their bodies were *not* destroyed by AK. We have been shown how the AK curse works on a few occasions, and each time it leaves the corpse looking almost perfect, just scared, and dead. This is the case for Tom Riddle's father and grandparents, plus the spider which Barty Crouch junior kills. Cedric merely looks surprised. I don't find it surprising that Harry hasn't asked where his parents are buried, or if they were cremated, where their remains were scattered. If there was one thing that the Dursleys taught Harry, it was not to ask questions. I just hope that we do find out before the end of the series. Ali From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Feb 19 19:46:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:46:40 -0000 Subject: AK and victims' remains In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > I'm sure if this means they set up a buffet and snack on the >remains or if it's more spiritual or even the theiving of the >magical essances of theose they kill, but they're called Death >Eaters for a reason. Also, this notion is echoed in the >incantation for the Dark Mark--"Morsmordre". > It literally translates to "Eat Death". I thought it had to do with LV's interest in immortality. To eat death is to conquer death. Also it sounds scary to the general population, particularly since the DE's are known to kill people. Potioncat From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 20:08:04 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:08:04 -0000 Subject: New Quidditch Team Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91267 OK, as everything will be back to normal at Hogwarts, we hope!, when book six starts, I'm wondering who will be on the Gryffindor Quidditch team. People that are gone: Angelina Johnson, Captain, Chaser Katie Bell, Chaser Alicia Spinnet, Chaser Fred Weasley, Beater George Weasley, Beater I can't remember who replaced the twins, but I remember reading that the two weren't very good. Don't know what will happen with the beaters. Ginny said she didn't like seeking, and would prefer to be a chaser. I think she'll get her wish. Ron contributed to the team winning the cup, so I assume he'll keep his position. Harry should be allowed back as seeker. So, if we assume that the two beaters will be back, that leaves room for two chasers and a captain. So, will Harry become the captain? Who decides? McGonagall? I hope she doesn't take the same route that DD took with the prefects. Harry would make an excellent Quidditch Captain, and I think he can handle the responsibility. I wonder about other Gryffindors though, like the Creevy brothers, or Neville, Seamus, or Dean. Or Pavarti, Levander. I can't think of any other Gryffindor's that we know that could make the team. Maybe we haven't met these characters yet. Anyone have thoughts? From pfsch at gmx.de Thu Feb 19 10:24:45 2004 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:24:45 +0100 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" Message-ID: <66124073.20040219112445@gmx.de> No: HPFGUIDX 91268 Hi! Jen wrote: Harry expects McGonagall to be furious with him after reading Umbridge's note, but instead, McGonagall asks him a few questions and offers him a biscuit and a seat. Anatol now: First of all, I want to come out with an answer to a question yet unasked: 42. Now, really: Ever wondered, why McGonagall acted so irritably when offering the biscuit? At first sight you might think she only wanted to show Harry that she somehow aproves what he did. But then she insists that irritably that I thought there might be something special about these biscuits. Remedial potions perhaps? As we see later obviously without any effect. ;) Jen: 7) Why does McGonagall warn Harry that misbehavior is Umbridge's class will cost more than a few detentions? What does she think he will lose? Anatol again: The worst, I presume, i.e. what he most cares about. At this point, Dolores had already confronted him in the Wizengamot trial with an expulsion. So, I reckon McGonnagal expects nothing less than that. She might reckon that Umbridge isn't over the lost trial yet and wants to succeed at last. Cutting off priveleges first, making that expulsion step-by-step. Umbridge might have told of plans to discipline the pupils to the staff before. Bye Anatol (http://www.setrok.de) From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 20:24:48 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:24:48 -0000 Subject: a maddening question of my own In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91269 LizVega wrote: > I'm not sure if this has been covered, I'm jumping in a little late > on this one. But, in COS Hagrid was sent to Azkaban by Fudge. After > Harry and Co. return from the Chamber of Secrets, doesn't DD tell > Ron to send a letter for Hagrid's release? If Fudge was the one to > put Hagrid in Azkaban, surely it must've been him who released him, > DD couldn't have just done that. So, if he was released, wouldn't > there have been some kind of reversal of the former sentencing? I've > been reading the posts that suggest that Hagrid simply returned to > Hogwarts, no questions asked. That doesn't make sense, IMHO, anyway. Hitomi: I'm with LizVega on this one, sorry Steve. But I honestly think Hagrid's original ruling of expulsion and ban on using magic was overturned, at least according to that quote I gave from JKR. But dorapeye's quote from Book 5 (thanks for reminding me of that!) confused me, too. Here's what I'm speculating: 1) As someone else mentioned, Hagrid was still guilty of breeding acromantulas, which Fudge might not know about, but if he wanted an explanation of why Riddle said he saw Hagrid with a monster, than Aragog's existence would have become known. Of course, DD could have just written it off for Fudge as the typical lying and manipulation of the Future-LV-Slytherin-Prefect (which seems more likely, in my opinion). 2) Maybe since Hagrid only has less than three years of full-magic training, he isn't allowed to use excessive magic, even though he is of age. 3) After all the Skeeter articles in Book 4, and then Umbridge's bills and laws, Hagrid's being half-giant was obviously a liability in Book 5. I'm sure DD has that cleared up now, but the MOM was looking for any excuse to bag Hagrid, a known supporter of DD. 4) Because of his known support of DD, Fudge could have had the ruling on Hagrid's ban reinstated again, making it easier to find legal reasons to arrest him. I always wondered why Fudge tries to have him arrested during the O.W.L. exams, instead of treating the situation like Trelawney's. They had to have had a reason for arresting him, besides the conjecture that he might have known where DD was. If they could arrest someone on those grounds, they could have arrested Harry, or at least have had him expelled (which was a goal of Fudge's throughout the book, in an effort to discredit Harry further). 5) Hagrid and Maxime were trying to remain inconspicuous, not only to the Death Eaters, but also to the MOM, and if Hagrid's using magic that year might have been disallowed (and the MOM was looking for any excuse, even if his using magic was technically still legal), then Hagrid wouldn't have been able to use magic openly. More thoughts, anyone? ~ Hitomi From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 20:56:28 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:56:28 -0000 Subject: New Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91270 LizVega wrote: > OK, as everything will be back to normal at Hogwarts, we hope!, when > book six starts, I'm wondering who will be on the Gryffindor > Quidditch team. > > People that are gone: > > Angelina Johnson, Captain, Chaser > Katie Bell, Chaser > Alicia Spinnet, Chaser > > Fred Weasley, Beater > George Weasley, Beater Hitomi: People have been strenuously discussing whether or not Katie Bell has graduated. I was going to give a quote on a thread I started awhile back concerning it, because at the time, I could have sworn I had seen some canon proof somewhere that Katie Bell was the same age as Angelina and Alicia. But I can't find it, so I must have imagined it >_<. The only proof we have is that she hangs out with the other two girls all the time, but that could be just because they're the three female Chasers of the Gryffindor Quidditch team, and we do see Angelina and Alicia without Katie more than we see them with her outside of Quidditch practice and matches. So, in conclusion, she's either graduated this past year, which is what I'm leaning towards, or she's going to graduate this year, which is very much a possiblity. > I can't remember who replaced the twins, but I remember reading that > the two weren't very good. Don't know what will happen with the > beaters. Hitomi: Andrew Kirke, and Jack Sloper (don't ask me how I remember that!). But we don't know what year they're in. I'm guessing fifth or sixth. And considering that Gryffindor still won the Cup with them on the team, and apparently they were better than any of the other tryouts, I'd say they're good to go for next year's team. I often wondered how JKR would handle the Quidditch after Book 4 and 5 (before reading Book 5), especially because (working with the assumption that Katie has graduated) the only remaining team member would be Harry. But she's made that irrelevant now. The captain won't have to replace the entire team. > Ginny said she didn't like seeking, and would prefer to be a chaser. > I think she'll get her wish. Hitomi: I'd definitely say she's going to be a Chaser, because according to everyone she's not the Seeker Harry is, but even Harry thought she was good, and knowing how perfectionistic Harry is concerning Quidditch, that's probably saying a lot. > Ron contributed to the team winning the cup, so I assume he'll keep > his position. Hitomi: Yeah, he's staying, too, more than likely. There have to be Weasleys on the team. > Harry should be allowed back as seeker. Hitomi: Umbridge is gone along with her Educational Decrees, so McGonagall should definitely let him back on the team. > So, if we assume that the two beaters will be back, that leaves room > for two chasers and a captain. Hitomi: Or three chasers and a captain, not knowing about Katie Bell, but I kind of just assume Ginny will be a Chaser. So that's: Harry - Seeker Ron - Keeper Andrew - Beater Jack - Beater Ginny - Chaser Unknown - Chaser Unknown - Chaser > So, will Harry become the captain? Who decides? McGonagall? I hope > she doesn't take the same route that DD took with the prefects. > Harry would make an excellent Quidditch Captain, and I think he can > handle the responsibility. Hitomi: Yup, McGonagall decides. And I agree, the only option that makes sense, in my opinion, is Harry, though some have argued for Ron. Ron is a prefect, and Harry has been on the team the longest, and is the best and most experienced flyer. It just wouldn't make much sense to pick Ron, considering the captains seem to most often be chosen on the amount of experience. Wood was the eldest player when Harry first joined the team, and then Angelina was the eldest, having turned 17 her sixth year (Book 4), and probably being the best flyer of the three Chasers. It wouldn't have been wise to pick one of the Weasley twins, if you made one Captain, you might as well name the other Captain, too. Harry is now the longest standing Quidditch player. And, because I doubt JKR will make Harry Head Boy (at least according to some of the things she says in interviews), I think she will make Harry Quidditch Captain. Plus, he'd love it. DD would probably encourage it - it's something he enjoys, especially with everything else going on in his life. > I wonder about other Gryffindors though, like the Creevy brothers, > or Neville, Seamus, or Dean. Or Pavarti, Levander. I can't think of > any other Gryffindor's that we know that could make the team. Maybe > we haven't met these characters yet. Hitomi: Neville, after the flying disaster his first year, I highly doubt. He does not seem to be proficient in flying. I can't see Parvarti or Lavendar, either. Dean or Seamus, maybe, and definitely one of the Creeveys. Harry was the one that explained Quidditch to Colin; I'd find it amusing if Harry chose him as one of the Chasers. And of course, all the Gryffindors we haven't met yet, like you said. What I'm curious to know is about the other teams. Has Davies graduated? Will Cho still be on the team after her bad performance this year, and could she become Ravenclaw Captain? What about Slytherin? And who replaced Cedric as Hufflepuff Captain and Seeker? More thoughts? ~ Hitomi, who'd be ecstatic for Harry if he became Quidditch Captain From kreneeb at hotmail.com Thu Feb 19 03:39:10 2004 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 03:39:10 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?book__six_and_seven_clich=E9s_?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91271 I saw this question on another web site, so I don't take any credit for it; I just thought that it was really interesting. In the next upcoming books, what would be the most horrible, mind numbing, clich?s that JKR could write? What would bring you to your knees, while you yell from pure joy? Things like Vampire Snape, sicky-sweet Draco, Harry getting some advise from Sirus via a painting or a Spellotaped mirror, Harry/ Hermione, Ron/ Luna, Neville goin' Matrix on Bellatrix, or Voldy. Harry Potter Fans have been reading and then rereading these books, while dissecting every word. We have come up some interesting theories that have been discussed as much as the books. We all have are favorites, and we all have are pet peeves. So... what's yours? Mine are... THE GOOD An Interesting, complex, "Good Slytherin" I'm rooting for Blaise Zabini, who will once and for all be confirmed to be a boy. Dumbledore dying, not because I want him dead, I just think it would be interesting to read how Harry and the Order will go on without him. Snape continuing to give Harry Occlumency lessons. Come on... tell me you didn't grin every time it was time for Occulmency lesson for Harry in the fifth book. Percy was actually a spy for the Order in the MoM; and that his whole "I'm-turning-my-back-on-my-family" thing was a front. Harry ending up with a minor character like Susan Bones, Just NOT Hermione, Ginny, or Luna. Any other house besides Gryffindor winning the House Cup, they can't possibly win all the time. I also want little Mark to come to Hogwarts, just not end up as Harry's cousin ten times removed. THE BAD... Will be very unhappy if Snape ends up being a traitor and a double- agent guy, or a vampire. Redeemed!Draco I don't care if Draco winds up fighting for the good side, but I don't want him turning all squishy and sweet. Dead!Harry or Martyr!Harry, or a permanently tortured soul Harry. Anybody but Harry defeating Voldemort... finding out that what is in the locked room is "love" then harry using it to put Voldy in a fate worse then death. I can't stand OBHWF, if this happens I'll start to spontaneously jabbing my eyes out with a spoon. Or if all of the DOM-six getting paired up with one another in a wonderful love...thing. I would be devastated if the books are less than 800 pages. Nothing JKR could write will make stop reading the books, but there are lots of things that would make me roll my eyes, Or will make me jump for joy. kitten From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Thu Feb 19 11:21:54 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (jozoed) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:21:54 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dark Arts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91272 Has anyone considered that after the events in OOTP Harry may, for a short period, be tempted by the Dark arts? He has suffered more than most wizards ever have in their lifetime, he is angry and tormented by his fate and the circumstances in his life. I am not suggesting he joins Lord V, but is there a possibility that he turns his back on doing 'good', detaches himself from Dumbledore, and for a time becomes entangled in his grief for Sirius, refusing to battle on as the 'hero'? We saw in OOTP that Harry was moody and withdrawn, becoming progessively more angry, expecially towards Dumbledore who he always saw as his guide and pillar of support. Surely the things that Harry has had to cope with in this book would have turned most other wizards onto the path of darkness and no-good? Why not Harry? We saw at the end of OOTP that he was angry enough to attempt an unforgivable curse on Bellatrix, and although he didn't have the strength of conviction to perform the curse to it's maximum effect he would never have considered using that curse previously. Revenge, hatred, and the feeling that life has been so unfair to him- wouldn't you want to do something rebellious? Could make for an interesting 6th book. "jozoed" From charlot7542 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 14:14:51 2004 From: charlot7542 at yahoo.com (charlot7542) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:14:51 -0000 Subject: 2 Maddening Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91273 > Cassie wrote: > Though it brings up an interesting thought: Harry never turns to an > adult for help. Except for Sirius, of course. Perhaps he constantly > wants to prove himself--even to himself. > > Bookworm wrote: > My take on this is that Harry has been conditioned to think there is > no one he can go to for help. Even though he has been at Hogwarts > for five years, those first 11 years ? well, 10 actually ? with the > Dursleys would have been imprinted on his psyche. And when no one > tells him anything after the graveyard scene, it only reinforces > what he has known his whole life ? he can't count on anyone else for > help, except Ron and Hermione who urged him to tell someone. Now Charlotte: I'd agree with both these ideas - Harry has been conditioned not to ask for help from years of living with the Dursleys and additionally has a desire to prove himself (the two are probably connected). I'd also say however, that there's a degree of arrogance, which stops him from asking for help. We see constantly in OotP Harry maintaining, because of past success, that he's actually better at dealing with things on his own - that essentially he doesn't need help because he is the best/most talented. (What Hermione would refer to as his "saving people" or hero complex). Of course with the error in judgement that leads to the death of Sirius, he learns that this is not necessarily the case. Ironically at the same time he discovers the prophecy, which confirms that it is indeed he alone that will have to save the world, just when his previous confidence has suffered its worst blow. Very harsh indeed....I knew there was a reason I loved this series. Charlotte. From kmsyarto at hotmail.com Thu Feb 19 18:09:56 2004 From: kmsyarto at hotmail.com (marigoldevans) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:09:56 -0000 Subject: AK and victims' remains In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91274 > Julie: > Regardless of the answer "yes remains" "no remains" my question is > this: Any speculations as to how this would play into the plot of > the septology? It could be we don't kow because we don't need to > know...it has no plot value. Just curious. I think "yes remains" based on the following: (POA, am. ed., pg. 365) Sirius, telling Harry about switching Secret-Keeper roles, says, "And when I saw their house destroyed, and their bodies..." Now, there's no saying in what state he found those bodies, but it sounds as though there were two forms to be found, rather than piles of ashes, gobs of goo, whatever. It is odd, though, and this harkens back to an earlier thread about Harry's lack of curiosity, that Harry has yet to visit Godric's Hollow, their graves(?) I have a feeling that that is what's coming. Marigoldevans From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 20:06:30 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (dk59us) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:06:30 -0000 Subject: A Dark Lord or _The_ Dark Lord? was Re: How will Harry win in the end? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91275 lizvega2 wrote: If Harry defeats LV, then all of his misguided psycho followers will just wither back into the wood work, like they did before. Eustace_Scrubb goes off on his own tangent: If we assume (I do) that Harry does defeat LV (at what cost, we do not know), what does this mean to the future of the WW? Is LV just another in long line of powerful dark wizards, his most recent predecessor being Grindelwald? Does every generation of the WW have to fight its own Dark Lord? Is one of LV's followers his successor? Did Grindelwald's followers (I assume he had some) just fade back into the woodwork or were some ready and waiting for their next leader, LV? Or is LV somehow THE dark lord, the one whose defeat will forever change the WW? Is HP vs. LV literally the war to end all wars? Just wondering, and wondering what others think, Eustace_Scrubb From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Thu Feb 19 19:30:20 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:30:20 -0000 Subject: Kreacher and the Fidelius In-Reply-To: <20040218224145.10179.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91276 Hey Remember how Kreacher left the house to go to the Malfoy's? How could he find his way back? I do not think DD would have told him the secret, because no one ever thought Kreacher would leave. So are house elves immune to Fidelius charm? If DD did tell him the secret, why would DD do that in the first place? Kreacher was not supposed to leave the house. If house elves can get around the Fidelius charm with their own form of apperation, wouldn't Voldemort want them on his side? A powerfully magical creature that could get into a house that no one else can get into without being told the secret? Seems like a valuable ally to me. Are we going to see Voldemort's version of S.P.E.W? Would Hermione approve? John who would like to see Hermione go over to the dark side to get S.P.E.W. off the ground. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 21:28:59 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:28:59 -0000 Subject: Cedric's Death and the TWT maze In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91277 "oogems7" wrote: >> > Harry is found holding Cedric's dead body in the maze. I'm assuming > that the ministry has some way of telling if he died of AK, so why > did they try to explain it away with a 'tragic accident.' We know > that Harry was no longer popular in the WW and that the justice > system is a joke, so why did no one raise any questions into how > Cedric died. Carol: Couldn't the spectators and the judges see into the maze? If not, why have spectators, and how would the judges know who had won? Surely they would have seen both boys grab the cup and disappear (explainable only if the cup had been turned into a portkey) and then Harry reappear holding the cup and Cedric's body. If he had wanted to AK Cedric, or kill him in any way, the time to do it would be before they reached the cup, not after. Also they would have seen (though not heard) Harry and Cedric both hesitating to get to the cup first. That being the case, no one would have suspected Harry of killing Cedric. But what I don't understand is how the guards or protectors or whatever they were could get into the maze to help the champions who sent up sparks to indicate that they were in trouble. The protectors were apparently at ground level outside the maze and couldn't see in. They'd have had to pass the same obstacles as the contestants to get to them. They also wouldn't have been able to see when the champions reached the center of the maze, though the judges (sitting somewhere in the stands) must have been able to do so. (There's no indication that the judges were on brooms like a quidditch referee!) But, again, if the only way into the middle is through the maze, obstacles and all, how is the winner supposed to get out again (assuming that the cup is not a portkey) without the help of the protectors, who would also have to get through the maze? And how would the protectors know they were there, except for the roar of the crowd, which had witnessed the winner seizing the cup? So I don't think anyone thought that Harry had killed Cedric, but I'm still confused by the intricacies of the maze itself. Carol, who is trying not to get sidetracked by the etymology of "amazing" From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 19 21:53:32 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:53:32 -0000 Subject: Cedric's Death and the TWT maze In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91278 Carol wrote: > But what I don't understand is how the guards or protectors or > whatever they were could get into the maze to help the champions > who sent up sparks to indicate that they were in trouble. The > protectors were apparently at ground level outside the maze and > couldn't see in. Pip!Squeak: I'd guess that was why the 'in trouble' signal was sparks, which go up into the air. Distress signals for ships at sea follow the same principle - you send up a rocket, which can be seen by ships that won't be able to actually see *you* (because of the curvature of the Earth). See rocket, head like heck for the area it came from. See sparks, crash through the maze hedges to the area they came from. Carol: > They'd have had to pass the same obstacles as the contestants to > get to them. Pip!Squeak: But they would have had the major advantage of knowing exactly what the obstacles are, and the correct countermeasures. The selected guardians are Hagrid (dangerous beasts expert), Moody (who's *supposed* to be a highly-trained Auror), Flitwick (charms expert) and McGonagall (transfiguration expert and general tough cookie). Between them, they could easily tackle anything in the maze - and each of them would know *when* they couldn't handle something by themselves. Carol: > But, again, > if the only way into the middle is through the maze, obstacles and > all, how is the winner supposed to get out again (assuming that the > cup is not a portkey) without the help of the protectors, who would > also have to get through the maze? And how would the protectors > know they were there, except for the roar of the crowd, which had > witnessed the winner seizing the cup? Pip!Squeak: The general conclusion the board reached before (personally, I was a bit slow in getting this) was that the cup was probably always a Portkey, set for a brief trip to the front of the maze. Fake!Moody just added an extra stop. Nothing else makes much sense, as you say. Alternatively, perhaps it was charmed to send up sparks of another colour (green, blue, whatever) when someone touched it and Fake! Moody removed that spell. Pip!Squeak From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 21:54:59 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:54:59 -0000 Subject: How did Fudge/Snape know about Dementors attacking HP in PoA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91279 Carol wrote: How did Snape in OoP know that Harry and Hermione had gone into the forest with Umbridge? Potioncat wrote: Good questions. Either JKR didn't really have the behind the scenes action fleshed out, or it wasn't important enough to pass on to us. But, just for laughs, can you imagine Snape going back to Umbridge's office and finding his young Slytherins tied up? I'd love to see that interaction! Of course, we don't know that he did. I also wonder, as backgroud to story, if he overheard Umbridge planning to use the cruciatus curse on Harry? I assume that if Hermione hadn't saved the day, he would have stepped back in and not appeared to rescue Harry? Then again, this is "Harry Potter and...." not "The Adventures of Severus Snape." Carol: But wouldn't it be fun if she started the whole series over again from Snape's point of view? What a different book it would be. OTOH, half the fun of the book for me is trying to figure him out. Aside to Sigune: I realize that my remark about Snape's father in another thread did sound as if I was jumping to conclusions about him, but I do have my reasons for thinking he was a Dark Wizard. Little Severus' knowledge of curses when he first came to Hogwarts and his interest in the Dark Arts at an early age suggest to me that Severus was either influenced by his father or seeking a way to protect himself from him. It was clearly the father, not the mother, who was abusive in that memory. Admittedly, even if my speculations about Snape Sr. are true, cruelty doesn't equate to being a Death Eater, but its certainly a prime qualification for membership in LV's inner circle. Speculation, not theory, as I'm perfectly aware, but not entirely groundless, nevertheless. Carol Carol From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 19 21:54:52 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:54:52 -0000 Subject: 2 Maddening Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91280 snip > Shari - who can imagine Umbridge and Bellatrix hanging out together on a Saturday night. > Now *there* is a picture. Given that Umbridge is a weak witch (unable to clear fireworks or swamp, short stubby fingers) who loves feeling important, I can just see her cuddling up to Bellatrix offering information for Voldemort about the secrets of Hogwart's. I am one of those who believes Fudge will scapegoat Umbridge, saying that all of her attrocities as "High Inquisiter/Head Mistress" were her own doing and make a big public show of firing her. Imagine Harry's dream then: A cowering Umbridge snivelling at lovely Bella's feet "But that's all I know mistress, a room on the 7th floor, yes, anything you want..." while Voldemort watches. EEEWWWW! Sue, who cannot think of a punishment bad enough for either toad. From ms-tamany at rcn.com Thu Feb 19 22:13:48 2004 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:13:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4262 In-Reply-To: <1077226004.7564.28070.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4034EECC.30708.848058@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 91281 On 19 Feb 2004 at 21:26, Ali wrote: > LOON to the rescue: > > In PoA p. 268 UK edition, Sirius states: > > "When I saw their house, destroyed, *and their bodies* - I realised > what Peter must have done." > > This doesn't answer the question how the house was destroyed or what > became of James' and Lily's bodies. But, their bodies were *not* > destroyed by AK. Now Tammy- My socks were purple, and my scarf. I saw the cats, sleeping, and the dog. There was my neighbor's car, totalled, and the phone pole. It doesn't necessarily mean that he saw their bodies -- it could mean that their bodies, too, were destroyed. Personally, though, I think their bodies were blown to bits in the backlash that destroyed their house, but that there WERE bits to be found. Several rather large bits. Enough that there was no doubt who they were, and that they were most definitely dead. But that's just my thoughts on it. *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Feb 19 22:18:27 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:18:27 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: <66124073.20040219112445@gmx.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Peter Felix Schuster wrote: > Jen: > 7) Why does McGonagall warn Harry that misbehavior is Umbridge's > class will cost more than a few detentions? What does she think he > will lose? > > Anatol again: > The worst, I presume, i.e. what he most cares about. At this point, > Dolores had already confronted him in the Wizengamot trial with an > expulsion. So, I reckon McGonnagal expects nothing less than that. > She might reckon that Umbridge isn't over the lost trial yet and wants > to succeed at last. Cutting off priveleges first, making that > expulsion step-by-step. Umbridge might have told of plans to > discipline the pupils to the staff before. Jen: The more I think about it, the more it seems McGonagall is referring not to what Harry will lose at Hogwarts (even expulsion), but that Harry is putting Dumbledore and the Order at risk by his outbursts. That would ultimately mean a loss of protection for himself that Harry doesn't see. Harry doesn't yet know about LegilimencyOcclumency, but McGonagall does, and she knows that an out-of-control Harry is a threat to the entire Order if his high emotions offer a way for LV to get into his brain. So, maybe those Ginger Newts did have a little Draught of Peace in them, eh? From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Thu Feb 19 22:46:33 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:46:33 -0000 Subject: L as P? (Veering Off-Topic, then back On) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91283 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: > > I see the point this thread is making, yes. If JKR is puncturing > another writer's swollen head, then her criticism is particularly > sharp because Lockhart turns out to be practicing a form of > plagiarism--if the adventures in his books aren't his own, then the > words probably aren't, either. (Does he Obliviate his ghost-writer > after each book is finished? I wonder.) > > I suspect JKR wrote Lockhart not just as a symbol for Harry, but for > herself. Perhaps she thinks of golden Gilderoy whenever she fears > that she's slipping into the personality of The Well-Praised, Well- > Paid Author. > > > Grannybat > who thinks JKR > is very grounded AmanitaMuscaria writes: Grannybat, my idea of JKR's inner thoughts are the same as yours. I believe she is writing Gilderoy as a warning to all aspiring authors, media types, etc, etc. His self-aggrandisement justifies any means, and I would imagine, as with Rita Skeeter, JKR is indulging in a bit of 'this is how it feels to me'. All sympathy to her in this, says I. I also think she's posting G.L. as a warning, to herself as much as others. My guess is, she worked him out before the big fame thing hit, but he's perfectly valid, even more so now. Isn't that why we all read her? She picks up archetypes and distills them the way we see them, or wish to? Cheers, AmanitaMuscaria From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 22:57:24 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:57:24 -0000 Subject: AK , victims' remains, and delay between Godric's Hollow and Privet Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91284 Ali: > In PoA p. 268 UK edition, Sirius states: > > "When I saw their house, destroyed, *and their bodies* - I realised > what Peter must have done." > > This doesn't answer the question how the house was destroyed or what > became of James' and Lily's bodies. But, their bodies were *not* > destroyed by AK. > > We have been shown how the AK curse works on a few occasions, and > each time it leaves the corpse looking almost perfect, just scared, > and dead. This is the case for Tom Riddle's father and grandparents, > plus the spider which Barty Crouch junior kills. Cedric merely looks > surprised. Exactly. The successful AKs that killed Lily and James probably left them looking surprised, like Cedric and the Riddles: perfectly intact but dead. It was the AK that hit Harry, caused the scar to appear (whether or not a protective charm was involved), and then backfired, vaporizing Voldemort, that caused the house to explode. Harry was unhurt by the explosion as well as the AK, which backfired *away* from him and Lily. I speculate that the baby and his mother's body were buried in debris but not otherwise damaged by it. James, who I think was outside the house--certainly not in the same room--may have been less deeply buried in the rubble and his body completely unscathed. As for Harry, if the bodies had been blown apart, the baby would have been, too. It was the AK he was protected from, not ordinary death. But, as I said, the explosion was directed away from Lily and Harry and would not in itself have harmed them. Also, from what we know of wizards, they're a lot tougher than we Muggles are. Moody survives nine months in a trunk, Neville is dropped out a window and bounces down the hill, and Hagrid says scornfully, "A car crash kill Lily and James!" So I think that Harry came away from the explosion covered with dust and a few scratches, no doubt confused and crying and trying to get to his mommy and wake her up, but I very much doubt that she and James were blown to pieces. There would have been bodies for Sirius to find and Hagrid also to see. IMO, all of this ties in with the much-discussed delay between finding Harry in Godric's Hollow and depositing him on the Dursleys' doorstep. Here's my speculative outline of events. Hagrid borrowed Sirius' motorcycle and took Harry to Dumbledore, who had to figure out what to do. Then he must have performed his blood charm and written the letter to Petunia, but he couldn't apparate with Harry so he asked Hagrid to deliver him. Hagrid must have requested a little time with Harry so he could bathe him and tend him for a day, providing him with food and clean blankets and a little basket bed before turning him over to the Muggles. McGonagall must have seen him with the baby and asked where he was going to take him, not anticipating the delay, which would explain why she waited for a whole day at 4 Privet Drive. Dumbledore, OTOH, had a clearer idea of when Hagrid intended to arrive and had a much shorter wait. Carol, who never knows where her mind is going to take her when she starts to answer a post! From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 19 23:21:24 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:21:24 -0000 Subject: New Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91285 Hitomi: > Andrew Kirke, and Jack Sloper (don't ask me how I remember that!). > But we don't know what year they're in. I'm guessing fifth or > sixth. And considering that Gryffindor still won the Cup with them > on the team, and apparently they were better than any of the other > tryouts, I'd say they're good to go for next year's team. I often > wondered how JKR would handle the Quidditch after Book 4 and 5 > (before reading Book 5), especially because (working with the > assumption that Katie has graduated) the only remaining team member > would be Harry. But she's made that irrelevant now. The captain > won't have to replace the entire team. snip Harry - Seeker > Ron - Keeper > Andrew - Beater > Jack - Beater > Ginny - Chaser > Unknown - Chaser > Unknown - Chaser > > > > snip> ~ Hitomi, who'd be ecstatic for Harry if he became Quidditch Captain Jack and Andrew could not have been 5th years, they would be living in Harry's dorm. My guess is that they are younger, probably 4th years. If they were older, chances are they would have been "reserve" on the team already. I am wondering whether Ron will remain Keeper, he may want to be a chaser as well. He always had to keep when his brothers practiced, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't choose something else given the opportunity. As far as the Captain job, I would like to see Harry do it too, but I think he will have bigger fish to fry and the job will go to Ron. I still think Harry is going to be running a school sanctioned DA or even taking over the pre-OWL DADA job. (I know that seems a little crazy but I would love to see the dynamic of Snape having to put up with Harry as not only a student, but a "peer".) Sue, who *really* hopes the March 4th chat brings us a release date for #6 (I can dream, can't I?) From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 23:31:27 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:31:27 -0000 Subject: A Dark Lord or _The_ Dark Lord? was Re: How will Harry win in the end? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91286 > Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > If we assume (I do) that Harry does defeat LV (at what cost, we do not > know), what does this mean to the future of the WW? Is LV just > another in long line of powerful dark wizards, his most recent > predecessor being Grindelwald? Does every generation of the WW have > to fight its own Dark Lord? Is one of LV's followers his successor? > Did Grindelwald's followers (I assume he had some) just fade back into > the woodwork or were some ready and waiting for their next leader, LV? > > Or is LV somehow THE dark lord, the one whose defeat will forever > change the WW? Is HP vs. LV literally the war to end all wars? Hitomi: I've wondered that, too. But then you remember all the quotes where LV is said to be the most powerful Dark Wizard to ever exist (and he has to be more powerful than Grindelwald, otherwise DD could defeat him). So, I'd say on a purely hypothetical level, that there will always be Dark Wizards, but they may never become as powerful as LV. Which is why we all believe he can't be defeated by conventional means, and why all those theories about "love" and "hope" and such are floating around. So I kind of see LV as the antithesis to Merlin. Everyone always swears by Merlin's beard in the WW. Maybe Merlin was the most powerful Good Wizard to ever exist. Makes you wonder where DD stands in the scheme of things, and where Harry will stand in the scheme of history, once LV is defeated. One of LV's followers being a supporter of Grindelwald is an interesting theory, but I doubt we'll ever be told for sure. And I highly doubt LV's Death Eaters will fade back into any woodwork. LV's reign has got to end, and I think Harry and DD would see to it that none of his close-knit circle of supporters remained. Otherwise, we would just be waiting for the third phase of this war to start, with someone leading the Death Eater's cause (which would be very Real Life, but this is an epic series - I think Rowling will tie up all the lose ends concerning the house elves, centaurs, giants, goblins, and pure-blood vs. half-blood/muggle-born nonsense). Just my opinion, anyway, though I hope the MOM will lock up the Death Eaters in a more secure place than Azkaban and its Dementors. And I seriously hope there won't be some weird Nuremburg- Trials-wannabe-scene concerning the Death Eaters. But even if this goes down as the worst Wizarding War in history, I think we can safely say there will always a need for Aurors. ~ Hitomi From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 19 23:42:13 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:42:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91287 Big snip Jen wrote: Harry doesn't yet know about > LegilimencyOcclumency, but McGonagall does, and she knows that an > out-of-control Harry is a threat to the entire Order if his high > emotions offer a way for LV to get into his brain. So, maybe those > Ginger Newts did have a little Draught of Peace in them, eh? Why didn't the POTIONS MASTER suggest a Draught of Peace to Harry when he was having trouble clearing his mind. He *knew* Harry was having dreams, he knew Harry was angry and having a hard time coping with everything that was happening at school. It just seems like another example of how as much as Snape could help, he doesn't. Sue, who knows Harry et. all could have thought of that too, but is it so much for the teacher to teach? From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Feb 20 00:15:24 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:15:24 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91288 Sue wrote: >snip< > Why didn't the POTIONS MASTER suggest a Draught of Peace to Harry > when he was having trouble clearing his mind. >snip< I've also wondered why we haven't ever seen much potion use or transfiguration going on at Hogwarts. There are lots of charms, hexes and curses flying around the hallways. We've been introduced to potions and several transfiguration spells in class that we never see again. (Of course, no one has needed buttons or pin cushions yet.) Also, with all his knowledge of "curses" you'd think Snape could have come up with a calming spell for Harry. Potioncat (who limits her brewing to tea and coffee.) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 00:28:37 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:28:37 -0000 Subject: Draught of Peace (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91289 Jen wrote: Harry doesn't yet know about LegilimencyOcclumency, but McGonagall does, and she knows that an out-of-control Harry is a threat to the entire Order if his high emotions offer a way for LV to get into his brain. So, maybe those Ginger Newts did have a little Draught of Peace in them, eh? Sue wrote: > Why didn't the POTIONS MASTER suggest a Draught of Peace to Harry > when he was having trouble clearing his mind. He *knew* Harry was > having dreams, he knew Harry was angry and having a hard time coping > with everything that was happening at school. It just seems like > another example of how as much as Snape could help, he doesn't. > > Sue, who knows Harry et. all could have thought of that too, but is > it so much for the teacher to teach? Carol: I think that the Draught of Peace would have interfered with Harry's ability to concentrate during the occlumency lessons. He has to learn to control his emotions on his own, without what amounts to a drug to help him (not to mention that the Draught of Peace is very dangerous and can lead to a comalike trance if taken in excess--and that Harry would not have access to it in a dangerous situation). I've already argued (I know you don't agree) that Snape presents Harry with all of the information he needs (he defines occlumency and legilimency and indicates that Harry is endanger of having LV enter his mind) and that the only way to learn occlumency is through practice, just as the only way (unfortunately!) to learn to defend yourself from an Imperius Curse is to be Imperio'd and struggle to fight it off. Snape *must* use the methods he uses. There is no other way. And Harry must control his own emotions, not come to lessons angry with Cho and deflect that anger onto Snape. When Snape says "You are giving me weapons!" Harry ought to listen. (If Snape really wanted to hurt Harry, he would say nothing and *use* the weapons.) I really believe that Harry must learn these lessons the hard way and that Snape explained as much of the process and the reason for learning the lessons as he could without disobeying Dumbledore's orders. Snape's cold manner was really controlled antipathy and pretended indifference to the contents of Harry's mind. Notice that he showed surprise, not anger when Harry hit him with a stinging hex, and actually praised him (coldly) for protecting himself. Harry, OTOH, made a great show of disrespect, hesitating before saying "sir" and emphasizing it to show that he didn't mean it. He made no attempt to control his emotions in any of the lessons and always had some excuse not to practice closing his mind--as he admitted himself in DD's office in the final chapter of OoP. Notice, though, that angry as Harry is at Snape for supposedly being responsible for Sirius's death, in their last scene together in OoP, he answers him calmly and truthfully and calls him "sir" without the nasty emphasis when Snape asks him what he's doing with his wand out: "I'm trying to decide what curse to use on Malfoy, sir." Snape reacts as any teacher would seeing one student about to curse (not hex or jinx) another: "Put that wand away at once! Ten points from Gryff-." He breaks off as he discovers that there are no points to deduct. Enter McGonagall, who suggests adding 250 points for Gryffindor (and 50 for Ravenclaw as a second thought) for the confrontation with You Know Who. She ends with, "What say you, Professor Snape?" and Snape responds, "What? Oh--well--I suppose. . . ."--in other words, he's not at all opposed to the idea and is making only a token fuss (OoP Am. ed. 852-53). I see some hope in all of this that, despite Harry's belief that he will "never forgive Snape. Never!" he will realize, first, that Snape is not responsible for Sirius's death and, second, that despite their mutual dislike, Snape has already taught him a great deal, and it might be worth his while to listen to him and accord him the respect that his knowledge and his work for the Order (if not his teaching methods) deserve. If Harry listens to Snape and follows directions, Snape will have no grounds for criticism and no reason to give him zeroes. And BTW, I do expect (hope) to see Harry in Snape's NEWTs Potions class because McGonagall and presumably DD want him to take it and will "Fudge" the OWL results if necessary to get him there. Carol From a_williams1 at pacific.edu Fri Feb 20 00:22:14 2004 From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:22:14 -0800 Subject: New Quidditch team Message-ID: <008601c3f747$9750cee0$7f420a0a@bre.uop.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 91290 QUOTE-- "lizvega2" People that are gone: Angelina Johnson, Captain, Chaser Katie Bell, Chaser Alicia Spinnet, Chaser Fred Weasley, Beater George Weasley, Beater I can't remember who replaced the twins, but I remember reading that the two weren't very good. Don't know what will happen with the beaters. Ginny said she didn't like seeking, and would prefer to be a chaser. I think she'll get her wish. Ron contributed to the team winning the cup, so I assume he'll keep his position. Harry should be allowed back as seeker. So, if we assume that the two beaters will be back, that leaves room for two chasers and a captain. So, will Harry become the captain? Who decides? McGonagall? I hope she doesn't take the same route that DD took with the prefects. Harry would make an excellent Quidditch Captain, and I think he can handle the responsibility. I wonder about other Gryffindors though, like the Creevy brothers, or Neville, Seamus, or Dean. Or Pavarti, Levander. I can't think of any other Gryffindor's that we know that could make the team. Maybe we haven't met these characters yet. Anyone have thoughts? END QUOTE AW: Well, firstly- I'm not sure what you're basing your statement that Katie will be gone on. I'm sure that when Ginny mentioned those two chasers leaving, it was Angelina and Alicia, but Katie wasn't explicitly mentioned. Of course, others have mentioned that Katie didn't just join the team the same year Harry did, so she has to be leaving or she would have been a first year on the team, which we know hasn't happened in a century (according to McGonagall, or is that movie contamination?). If that's what you mean- then nevermind. :) (a side note- what's the deal with reserves? I mean, I can't remember if this is just somenoe speculating that Katie must have been one of the reserves her first year, so she wasn't truly on the team and joined as a full-fledged member Harry's first year, or if one of the books mentions she was a resere player. If they have reserves, then why did they stop? I mean, otherwise, they would have gone to the reserves team first for a new keeper, right?) Anyway, my vote is for Ron as captain. I like Harry as a player better than Ron, but IMO, the fact still remains that at this point, Harry is not a member of the Quidditch team. Unfairly, yes, and he should definately be let back on with no difficulty- but still, the only members are the ones who were on the team last year. I think it would be odd to place as captain of the team someone who's not even a member of the team, even if it's a given that he'll be brought back on. Secondly, Harry's only been playing Quidditch for 6 years, and while he's a natural and phenomenally talented seeker, does he really know much about the other positions? Of course he knows their objectives and stuff- but 99% of the time, he's hovering far above the pitch, looking for the snitch, and not paying attention to the other players. So when has he had a chance to learn the nuances of those players' positions? I suppose you could say he's read about it over vacation or something... but the only book we've seen him read is the one about the Cannons, and is it about the structure of the game ?... I guess my point is, how much does he know about the other positions on the team that he'd be able to give them tips and instruction on different plays? Can he give them much strategic instruction? I don't know, maybe he can. The students who have grown up in the wizarding world have also grown up watching Quidditch, and may be a little better leading the team. As I think about it, I think Ginny would be a great captain. We know she's smart, and she's a great player- she must have a bit more of a natural ability than Ron, since she wasn't even allowed to play with other teammates like Ron was, and she didn't have anyone else to play with (no, it doesn't say that anywhere, but it seems fairly certain that she didn't really have friends before Hogwarts; possibly acquaintences, but no close friends she played with a lot). She's strong and I see the same kind of no-nonsense, take charge personality that Angelina had. At the end of the day, I'm not sure Harry would even want to be Captain. Sure, he could handle the responsibility, but does he want to? I think we'll see the continuation of Dumbledore's Army next year, and even if he doesn't lead it any longer (There's only so much he knows about the Dark Arts, and I don't think a teacher should just be keeping one lesson ahead of the students in order to teach them something), he'll be an important figure. Perhaps they'll have a couple different clubs- one for the students who didn't learn the stuff the current DA knows, and Harry will lead that one. Who knows. But he said something near the end of OoP- I dont' have my book, but I think it was in "Grawp", perhaps when they were returning- about Quidditch not mattering as much anymore. Is that right? So perhaps while he'd love to be a member of the team again, he'd not be as interested in being the Captain. I just want Ron to get something of his own. We know he only got Prefect because he was second best to Harry. (I'm still angry with JKR for that!) I guess the same could be said if he got captain- that he got it only because Harry wasn't 'officially' a teammate. But it would fit in so nicely with his abilities as a Seer... Anyway, that's my 2 knuts. Aesha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 00:50:39 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:50:39 -0000 Subject: New Quidditch team In-Reply-To: <008601c3f747$9750cee0$7f420a0a@bre.uop.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91291 Aesha wrote: > Anyway, my vote is for Ron as captain. I like Harry as a player better than Ron, but IMO, the fact still remains that at this point, Harry is not a member of the Quidditch team. Unfairly, yes, and he should definately be let back on with no difficulty- but still, the only members are the ones who were on the team last year. I think it would be odd to place as captain of the team someone who's not even a member of the team, even if it's a given that he'll be brought back on. Secondly, Harry's only been playing Quidditch for 6 years, and while he's a natural and phenomenally talented seeker, does he really know much about the other positions? Of course he knows their objectives and stuff- but 99% of the time, he's hovering far above the pitch, looking for the snitch, and not paying attention to the other players. So when has he had a chance to learn the nuances of those players' positions? I suppose you could say he's read about it over vacation or something... but the only book we've seen him read is the one about the Cannons, and is it about the structure of the game ?... I guess my point is, how much does he know about the other positions on the team that he'd be able to give them tips and instruction on different plays? Can he give them much strategic instruction? I don't know, maybe he can. The students who have grown up in the wizarding world have also grown up watching Quidditch, and may be a little better leading the team. Carol: I agree completely that Ron should be captain, first because Harry has more important obligations and second, as you point out, Ron knows a lot more about quidditch than Harry does. He's been following and playing it most of his life and he knows what all of the players are supposed to be doing, not just the Seeker. It would also mean a lot more to Ron than it would to Harry, for whom it would be just one more honor--and one more burden. (For the same reason, I don't think he should be Head Boy in Book 7. Give Ernie MacMillan that responsibility and Hufflepuff that honor.) Aesha: > As I think about it, I think Ginny would be a great captain. We know she's smart, and she's a great player- she must have a bit more of a natural ability than Ron, since she wasn't even allowed to play with other teammates like Ron was, and she didn't have anyone else to play with (no, it doesn't say that anywhere, but it seems fairly certain that she didn't really have friends before Hogwarts; possibly acquaintences, but no close friends she played with a lot). She's strong and I see the same kind of no-nonsense, take charge personality that Angelina had. Carol: How about Ginny for captain in Book 7 (or the imaginary Book 8)? She'll be captain after Ron leaves for sure. Carol From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 01:10:19 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 01:10:19 -0000 Subject: New Quidditch team and possible book 7 Headboy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91292 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Aesha wrote: > > > Anyway, my vote is for Ron as captain. I like Harry as a player > better than Ron, but IMO, the fact still remains that at this point, > Harry is not a member of the Quidditch team. Unfairly, yes, and he > should definately be let back on with no difficulty- but still, the > only members are the ones who were on the team last year. > Carol: > I agree completely that Ron should be captain, first because Harry has > more important obligations and second, as you point out, Ron knows a > lot more about quidditch than Harry does. He's been following and > playing it most of his life and he knows what all of the players are > supposed to be doing, not just the Seeker. It would also mean a lot > more to Ron than it would to Harry, for whom it would be just one more > honor--and one more burden. (For the same reason, I don't think he > should be Head Boy in Book 7. Give Ernie MacMillan that responsibility > and Hufflepuff that honor.) Bookworm: Ron has my vote too. Remember his skill at chess which requires a talent for strategy. Being able to think strategically is important for the captain. Ernie MacMillan? Hmm. He's a bit stiff-necked, isn't he. Wouldn't it be like having Percy as Headboy again? I can't remember the girl who is the new Hufflepuff prefect in OoP - maybe she can give Hufflepuff the honor without the pomposity. Ravenclaw Bookworm From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 20 01:15:45 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 01:15:45 -0000 Subject: Draught of Peace (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91293 snip > I see some hope in all of this that, despite Harry's belief that he > will "never forgive Snape. Never!" he will realize, first, that Snape > is not responsible for Sirius's death and, second, that despite their > mutual dislike, Snape has already taught him a great deal, and it > might be worth his while to listen to him and accord him the respect > that his knowledge and his work for the Order (if not his teaching > methods) deserve. If Harry listens to Snape and follows directions, > Snape will have no grounds for criticism and no reason to give him > zeroes. And BTW, I do expect (hope) to see Harry in Snape's NEWTs > Potions class because McGonagall and presumably DD want him to take it > and will "Fudge" the OWL results if necessary to get him there. > > Carol I must agree with your post. I have always seen your point in his methods and can definitely see the need to be of clear mind when learning something new like occlumency (though, as you know, I don't think he *always* needs to teach this way). I also think that Snape was, subtly, trying to show Harry how to use legilimency so that he can see who his friends are. I do think they could have helped Harry to get some sleep, but as a plot line that would have destroyed all the fun. BTW, my feeling about Harry blaming Snape for Sirius's death was that he just *did not* want to face that no matter how he turned it he went to the MOM and it was his choices that led Sirius there (and of course Dumbledore's). Harry has to be in potions for the last two years, we have come to look so forward to the sparring between the two, and the more knowledgable Harry gets, the more fun the sparring will be. Sue, who is so obviously STILL conflicted over Severus Snape From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Fri Feb 20 01:40:31 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 01:40:31 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_book__six_and_seven_clich=E9s?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionekitten9" wrote: > I saw this question on another web site, so I don't take any credit > for it; I just thought that it was really interesting. > > In the next upcoming books, what would be the most horrible, mind > numbing, clich?s that JKR could write? What would bring you to > your knees, while you yell from pure joy? Things like Vampire Snape, > sicky-sweet Draco, Harry getting some advise from Sirus via a > painting or a Spellotaped mirror, Harry/ Hermione, Ron/ Luna, > Neville goin' Matrix on Bellatrix, or Voldy. > > Harry Potter Fans have been reading and then rereading these books, > while dissecting every word. We have come up some interesting > theories that have been discussed as much as the books. We all have > are favorites, and we all have are pet peeves. So... what's yours? > Kristen: THE GOOD Finding an evil plot behind St. Mungos and freeing the Longbottoms. Mr. Weasley as Minster of Magic Dobby as a hero THE BAD TimeTurner!Dumbledore (sorry, I don't buy this and don't want to see it) Any scenario where either of Harry's parents are alive Kristen From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 02:02:28 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 02:02:28 -0000 Subject: New Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91295 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says I also think Ron would make a better captain than Harry. We know from his chess talent that he can plan. But what about the theme of inter- House unity? Could it be that Quidditch, at least the intramural game, is going to be less important? Do English schools have academic clubs like we do here in the US? So Ron is captain of Howarts' Quidditch team (in the international scholastic/junior league); Harry, of the DADA and Duelling Club, Hermione, Head Girl; Draco, Head Boy; Neville, the Competitive Gardening Club; Dean, the Muggle Sports and Physical Culture Club... That leaves us with three more Houses from which to get the varsity Quidditch team, with junior varsity teams continuing to play intramural games. --JDR From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Feb 20 02:48:07 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 02:48:07 -0000 Subject: Draught of Peace (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 12, "Professor Umbridge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91296 > Sue wrote: > > Why didn't the POTIONS MASTER suggest a Draught of Peace to Harry > > when he was having trouble clearing his mind. He *knew* Harry was > > having dreams, he knew Harry was angry and having a hard time coping > > with everything that was happening at school. It just seems like > > another example of how as much as Snape could help, he doesn't. > Carol: > I think that the Draught of Peace would have interfered with Harry's > ability to concentrate during the occlumency lessons. He has to learn > to control his emotions on his own, without what amounts to a drug to > help him (not to mention that the Draught of Peace is very dangerous > and can lead to a comalike trance if taken in excess--and that Harry > would not have access to it in a dangerous situation). Jen: This is a good point, Carol. Potioncat said earlier in the thread, why don't we see more potions in the stories? Does the WW consider a potion like the Draught of Peace the equivalent of modern- day Valium, and thus only used if prescibed? Actually, I guess the Calming Potion Hannah Abbott gets from Madam Pomfrey would be more like a tranquilizer. You know, the more I think about it, Snape has a challenging job. He seems to be one of few people who knows these complex potions, yet there aren't laws (we know of) in place for the procurement of the potions. That sets up situations like Umbridge demanding Veritaserum from Snape any old time she pleases. OTOH, this is just one more example of the danger inherent in living in the WW, where life is so different from the Muggle world. Carol: > I've already argued (I know you don't agree) that Snape presents Harry > with all of the information he needs (he defines occlumency and > legilimency and indicates that Harry is endanger of having LV enter > his mind) and that the only way to learn occlumency is through > practice, just as the only way (unfortunately!) to learn to defend > yourself from an Imperius Curse is to be Imperio'd and struggle to > fight it off. Snape *must* use the methods he uses. There is no other > way. And Harry must control his own emotions, not come to lessons > angry with Cho and deflect that anger onto Snape. When Snape says "You > are giving me weapons!" Harry ought to listen. (If Snape really wanted > to hurt Harry, he would say nothing and *use* the weapons.) Jen: I've never felt like Snape wanted to harm Harry. Obviously he has very mixed feelings about him, from wanting him expelled in POA, to assisting with Occlumency in OOTP. Of course, Snape has something to gain with the Occlumency b/c he will be very much at risk if LV gets into Harry's mind and finds out info about Snape. There's obviously a lot more latitude given to teachers and students in the WW, and that doesn't bother me. What else can you do in a world where people hex each other in the hallways, turn kids into ferrets and there are hands-on dark creature lessons?!? Once again it's a different world with different constraints. Carol: > I really believe that Harry must learn these lessons the hard way and > that Snape explained as much of the process and the reason for > learning the lessons as he could without disobeying Dumbledore's > orders. Snape's cold manner was really controlled antipathy and > pretended indifference to the contents of Harry's mind. Notice that he > showed surprise, not anger when Harry hit him with a stinging hex, and > actually praised him (coldly) for protecting himself. Harry, OTOH, > made a great show of disrespect, hesitating before saying "sir" and > emphasizing it to show that he didn't mean it. He made no attempt to > control his emotions in any of the lessons and always had some excuse > not to practice closing his mind--as he admitted himself in DD's > office in the final chapter of OoP. Jen: Harry *does* have a tendency to learn things the hard way, although in OOTP there are several instances where he waited to act, something he's not known for. One example was agreeing with Hermione's plan to check if Sirius was still at Grimmauld before heading to the MOM. I also think Harry's tendency to learn the hard way is part of why Snape teaches him the way he does, with no apologies. But the part that always gets to me about Snape is the fact that he is the adult. He never gives Harry a break for being a kid. Even given the differences in the WW, adults still have more knowledge, experience and self-control (hopefully). Carol: >> I see some hope in all of this that, despite Harry's belief that he > will "never forgive Snape. Never!" he will realize, first, that Snape > is not responsible for Sirius's death and, second, that despite their > mutual dislike, Snape has already taught him a great deal, and it > might be worth his while to listen to him and accord him the respect > that his knowledge and his work for the Order (if not his teaching > methods) deserve. If Harry listens to Snape and follows directions, > Snape will have no grounds for criticism and no reason to give him > zeroes. Jen: Harry says that, but even he doesn't buy it. He knows deep down that he played a role in Sirius' death and that pain caused his outburst against Snape. Something will force them together again in the next book. I disagree that Snape won't have grounds for criticism, though! He will always find something to despise about Harry, even if it's forced. For some reason he *must* despise Harry and I'm very curious to find out why. From snapesmate at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 03:22:00 2004 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 03:22:00 -0000 Subject: Kreacher and the Fidelius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91297 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: > Hey > Remember how Kreacher left the house to go to the Malfoy's? How > could he find his way back? I do not think DD would have told him > the secret, because no one ever thought Kreacher would leave. So are > house elves immune to Fidelius charm? If house elves can get around the Fidelius charm > with their own form of apperation, wouldn't Voldemort want them on > his side? A powerfully magical creature that could get into a house > that no one else can get into without being told the secret? Perhaps a person/being/creature that is already familiar with a location does not need the secret-keeper to tell them of that location. What I mean is, if a fidelius charm is cast on MY home, would I need the secret keeper to tell me where my home is? Or, would I retain the knowledge because it is MY home? We know Kreature couldn't reveal OotP info because Sirius told him not to right? We also know Dobby could apparate/diapparate in Hogwarts, which supposedly, wizards and witches cannot. Indeed, elves would make a useful ally for Voldemort. Maybe this is going to be part of the book series plotline... Lynnette, who thinks Snape is a good guy, even if he isn't necessarily a nice guy! From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 20 03:49:37 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 03:49:37 -0000 Subject: Kreacher and the Fidelius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91298 snip> Lynette wrote: Perhaps a person/being/creature that is already familiar with a > location does not need the secret-keeper to tell them of that > location. What I mean is, if a fidelius charm is cast on MY home, > would I need the secret keeper to tell me where my home is? Or, > would I retain the knowledge because it is MY home? We know Kreature > couldn't reveal OotP info because Sirius told him not to right? We > also know Dobby could apparate/diapparate in Hogwarts, which > supposedly, wizards and witches cannot. Indeed, elves would make a > useful ally for Voldemort. Maybe this is going to be part of the > book series plotline... > Lynnette, who thinks Snape is a good guy, even if he isn't > necessarily a nice guy! Isn't it ususally the beings who are underestimated in a story who wind up being the most heroic/damaging in any war? The elves seem to me to fall into this catagory. Their magic is both ignored and underestimated by both sides to their detriment. The house elves we know can choose to excersize free will as long as there has been no specific direction not to do a certain thing (ie. "don't go to Harry Potter and tell him about the Chamber"). And they, like animals, seem to be able to penetrate protected places without causing a problem. I think we have been given all the information we need so that we will not be surprised when both sides make use of the elves in unexpected ways. Sue From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 03:57:02 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 03:57:02 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_book__six_and_seven_clich=E9s?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionekitten9" > wrote: > > I saw this question on another web site, so I don't take any credit > > for it; I just thought that it was really interesting. > > > > In the next upcoming books, what would be the most horrible, mind > > numbing, clich?s that JKR could write? What would bring you to > > your knees, while you yell from pure joy? Things like Vampire > Snape, > > sicky-sweet Draco, Harry getting some advise from Sirus via a > > painting or a Spellotaped mirror, Harry/ Hermione, Ron/ Luna, > > Neville goin' Matrix on Bellatrix, or Voldy. > > > > Harry Potter Fans have been reading and then rereading these books, > > while dissecting every word. We have come up some interesting > > theories that have been discussed as much as the books. We all have > > are favorites, and we all have are pet peeves. So... what's yours? > > > > > Kristen: > > THE GOOD > > Finding an evil plot behind St. Mungos and freeing the Longbottoms. > > Mr. Weasley as Minster of Magic > > Dobby as a hero > > THE BAD > > TimeTurner!Dumbledore (sorry, I don't buy this and don't want to see > it) > > Any scenario where either of Harry's parents are alive > > Kristen The Good: Neville as a secretly great wizard with a new wand and some mad skillz. Lupin achieving respectability in the WW and becoming the first werewolf to work for the MoM. Fudge and Umbridge getting their just desserts. Seeing the DoM again. More Firenze. (Hey, I'd sign up for divination if this guy were teaching it.) The Bad: Anything nasty happening to Oliver Wood. Snape being a vampire or in any way romantically involved with Lilly. Bill Weasley turning out to be evil for no good reason except that we need an ESE!Weasley. Lupin is actually James Potter in disguise. Siruis coming back. Lord Voldemort: "No, Harry, I am your father...and Hermione is your long lost twin sister." (AAAAARGH!) Meri (who will lose all faith if this series turns out with some weird Potter family politics like Star Wars did.) From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 21:51:37 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (dk59us) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:51:37 -0000 Subject: New Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91300 LizVega wrote: OK, as everything will be back to normal at Hogwarts, we hope!, when book six starts Eustace_Scrubb: I'm not really sure Hogwarts will ever be back to normal, whatever that is, at least until after the downfall of LV, but anyway, I share your hope! LizVega wrote: So, will Harry become the captain? Who decides? McGonagall? I hope she doesn't take the same route that DD took with the prefects. Harry would make an excellent Quidditch Captain, and I think he can handle the responsibility. Next, Hitomi: Yup, McGonagall decides. And I agree, the only option that makes sense, in my opinion, is Harry, though some have argued for Ron. Now, Eustace_Scrubb: While Harry is the logical choice and sentimental favorite, as you have argued, I wonder how Ron will take it. After all, when he was younger, being Quidditch captain was his heart's desire (just ask the Mirror). I'm sure that Ron would rationally tell himself that Harry deserves to be Captain, for his experience, for his love of the game and because of all Harry's been through. But I wonder, has Ron matured enough so that being Quidditch captain isn't as important to him anymore? As a result of Harry's elevation to Captain, might we see a re-emergence of the jealousy that he has felt towards Harry in earlier books? (In the hypothetical case that either or both of the boys ever stand in front of the Mirror of Erised again, will either or both see something different than they did when they were 11? I imagine so, but who knows?) Eustace_Scrubb From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 22:06:53 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:06:53 -0000 Subject: AK and victims' remains In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91301 Julie: > Regardless of the answer "yes remains" "no remains" my question is > this: Any speculations as to how this would play into the plot of > the septology? It could be we don't kow because we don't need to > know...it has no plot value. Just curious. One other fairly authoritative answer to the YR/NR question: the Riddle family's bodies are discovered, unblemished (aside from the looks of horror on their faces), or so we hear in the first Chapter of GoF. It seems clear that AK simply drains the victim of life, but doesn't damage the body.... As for the Potters' grave site, I think it is a likely bet that Harry will be visiting it at some point--I'm voting for Book 6, but perhaps that's just because I'm curious to see what's left of Godric's Hollow! From BrwNeil at aol.com Thu Feb 19 22:41:32 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (brwneil) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:41:32 -0000 Subject: What happened to Trelawney? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91302 Dolores was about to kick Trelawney out of the castle when Dumbledore steped and said that Umbridge had the right to fire her, but couldn't make her leave the castle. The headmaster decided who could and couldn't live in the castle. One would assume then that as soon as Dumbledore was gone and Umbridge was made Headmistrest she would have sent Trelawney packing as one of her first acts, but we hear nothing. Is this sort of an unwritten Flint? Or did both Rowling and Umbridge forget she was still in the tower drinking her sherry? From lisa at faistudio.com Thu Feb 19 22:43:39 2004 From: lisa at faistudio.com (lisa graves) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:43:39 -0000 Subject: what are the chances... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91303 Do you think Rowling will have spin-offs, do you think she'll write a whole new series based on an upcoming new first year? If you could see any character developed into his or her own storylines, who would it be and why? Personally, I'd love Rowling to go back and tell DD's entire life story. -Tonkswannabe From teshara at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 00:37:07 2004 From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:37:07 -0000 Subject: A maddening question of my own In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91304 dj_bagshaw wrote: > In CoS, we learn that Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts for "opening > the chamber of secrets". Now that his name has been cleared, why is > he still not allowed to practice and/or learn magic? If it was all a > misunderstanding (as it turns out it was), why can't he have a wand > again? His name hasn't been cleared yet. No one was willing to admit LV was back in book 2. Just now, at the end of book 5 the Ministry is admitting LV is back and Hagrid has the chance to be cleared. Whether he will or not may be another matter.... ~ Chelle From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 20 04:29:27 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 04:29:27 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_book__six_and_seven_clich=E9s?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91305 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionekitten9" > > wrote: > > > I saw this question on another web site, so I don't take any > credit > > > for it; I just thought that it was really interesting. > > > > > > In the next upcoming books, what would be the most horrible, > mind > numbing, clich?s that JKR could write? What would bring you to > your knees, while you yell from pure joy? Things like Vampire > Snape, > sicky-sweet Draco, Harry getting some advise from Sirus via a > painting or a Spellotaped mirror, Harry/ Hermione, Ron/ Luna, > Neville goin' Matrix on Bellatrix, or Voldy. Harry Potter Fans have been reading and then rereading these > books, > while dissecting every word. We have come up some interesting > theories that have been discussed as much as the books. We all > have > are favorites, and we all have are pet peeves. So... what's > yours? > Sue chimes in: THE GOOD: Harry is finally able to feel safe and the people he trusts are *really* trustworthy. Lupin is cured, marries and lives happily ever after supporting himself and his 8 children writing children's books about magical creatures. We get to see Dumbledore lounging on the beach. Umbridge suffering anywhere. Belatrix Lestrange gone. THE BAD: Harry devastated and unable to live a "normal" life. Any Weasley a DE Vampire!Snape ESE! Lupin or Magonigal Any Dursley with Magical Power And I will add... THE UGLY Umbridge in a postition of power anywhere Lupin revealing himself as James and trying to defend his decision not to tell Harry in the first place. Harry waking up in the cupboard under the stairs only to discover he has had a very long strange dream. From siskiou at msn.com Fri Feb 20 04:30:58 2004 From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:30:58 -0800 Subject: Quidditch/ jealousy was,Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16010090745.20040219203058@msn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91306 Hi, Thursday, February 19, 2004, 1:51:37 PM, dk59us wrote: > As a result of Harry's elevation to Captain, might we > see a re-emergence of the jealousy that he has felt towards Harry in > earlier books? Sure. I'd imagine Ron might feel a burst of jealousy, just like Harry felt jealous, when Ron received the prefect badge. If Ron became captain, Harry would probably feel envy, and if someone completely different were chosen, both boys might feel a bit slighted. What I'm trying to say is, that jealousy is perfectly normal, and I don't think there is a person on earth who hasn't had that feeling, occasionally. I didn't see Ron's jealousy in book 4 as anything unusual or shameful. In fact, I was surprised it didn't pop up a lot more early on, considering their age. Same with Harry in book 5. After some initial nastiness, both boys seem to be able to work through their feelings, without starting to hate each other, or plan to join the DE at the next opportunity, to get back at the other. And I'm aware that you may have not been getting into this subject at all with your post! :) I guess I'm just reacting to this often mentioned jealous!Ron image that usually goes along with him turning into a completely nasty character, as if having this emotion automatically makes it impossible for someone to also be a good person ;) And as if Ron were the only person in the HP series, who had ever fallen prey to jealousy. And yes, I do think both boys, or at least Ron, would see something different in the Mirror of Erised, nowadays. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at msn.com Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 06:31:08 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:31:08 -0000 Subject: Time turner problems (Was: PoA Plot does not work) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91307 > Carol: > Which leads me to wonder what exactly happened to the baby-headed > Death Eater in the same scene. Has anyone figured out who he is? Annemehr: You've asked this before! :) I attempted a reply to you in message #85145, where I figured it was either Crabbe, Rabastan, or Avery, and guessed that Rabastan seemed the most likely. I have my reasons spelled out, too. Carol: At any > rate, I think we have one Death Eater as a permanent resident of St. > Mungo's. I hope he doesn't end up in the same ward with Agnes and the > Longbottoms! Not if the MoM took pity on him; then they could just have one of the unspeakables dip his head back into the bell jar and pull him back out when he looked about right! By the way, I snipped the part where you figure Harry would have recognised Avery. The DEs in the graveyard were all hooded, so Harry's never actually seen him. I did think the baby headed DE might not be Avery because their voices seem different, though. Annemehr who at any rate hopes we'll eventually hear about what happened to him in a future book From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 22:15:33 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:15:33 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dark Arts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91308 "jozoed": > Has anyone considered that after the events in OOTP Harry may, for a > short period, be tempted by the Dark arts? He has suffered more than > most wizards ever have in their lifetime, he is angry and tormented > by his fate and the circumstances in his life. I am not suggesting he > joins Lord V, but is there a possibility that he turns his back on > doing 'good', detaches himself from Dumbledore, and for a time > becomes entangled in his grief for Sirius, refusing to battle on as > the 'hero'? I hate to go cross-series, but doesn't that sound very Return of the Jedi? As for his moodiness and withdrawal, as someone who works with teens, I have to say another book's worth of teen angst is about the only thing (aside from a huge sappy turn-around by Snape and/or Malfoy) that might make me even consider putting the series down. Well, maybe not... but I could do without quite so much of it! Rebellion, maybe, but moping and sulking, ick. AC From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 08:43:25 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:43:25 -0000 Subject: what are the chances... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lisa graves" wrote: > Do you think Rowling will have spin-offs, do you think she'll write > a whole new series based on an upcoming new first year? > > If you could see any character developed into his or her own > storylines, who would it be and why? Personally, I'd love Rowling > to go back and tell DD's entire life story. > > -Tonkswannabe Actually, I've already answered this question in a previous post, but I doubt that anyone would be surprised by my answer even if I hadn't. Mr. Mysterious himself, Severus Snape, of course. (And Constance Vigilance will say Quirrell, am I right?) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 08:51:07 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:51:07 -0000 Subject: Time turner problems (Was: PoA Plot does not work) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91310 Annemehr: > > By the way, I snipped the part where you figure Harry would have > recognised Avery. The DEs in the graveyard were all hooded, so > Harry's never actually seen him. I did think the baby headed DE might > not be Avery because their voices seem different, though. He saw Avery tortured in one of his dream visions, didn't he? That's what I had in mind, anyway. (I snipped your suggestion that it was Rabastan, but I don't think it was him because I think he followed Bellatrix with Rodolphus. I'll have to go back and read your post when it isn't 1:44 in the morning. It's good to know that I'm not the only person who cares who the DEs are. Not that I like them, of course. I'm just curious about them. Carol From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 08:23:17 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:23:17 -0000 Subject: Dementors Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91311 Why are Dementors not even mentioned by Newt Scamander in "Fanstastic Beasts and where to find them"? Does that strike anyone else as odd? They are not even mentioned in the beginning of the book when he classifies the terms beings and beasts. What's up with that? John, who wonders if they could be some Dementors who want to join DD. Maybe even a rare Albino Dementor who brings light instead of darkness and happiness instead of taking it away. From pfsch at gmx.de Fri Feb 20 09:35:06 2004 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:35:06 -0000 Subject: What happened to Trelawney? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91312 Hi there! "brwneil" wrote: > One would assume then that as soon as Dumbledore was gone and > Umbridge was made Headmistrest she would have sent Trelawney packing > as one of her first acts, but we hear nothing. Is this sort of an > unwritten Flint? Or did both Rowling and Umbridge forget she was > still in the tower drinking her sherry? I believe Umbridge forgot her over all the trouble Fred and George are paying her. ;) I mean, you can't see very much of her if you doesn't happen to have taken Devination. Or Umbridge had her goal by "making" Dumbledore leave. Only problem I have with my own theory is that Dolores can't ignore some 5th year girls (Lavender was it?) always talking to Trelawney when she (U) banned all clubs etc. Perhaps Snape backs her. ;) Bye Anatol (www.setrok.de) - Snape/Trelawney SHIPper ;) From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Fri Feb 20 09:51:05 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:51:05 -0000 Subject: Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91313 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: > Why are Dementors not even mentioned by Newt Scamander > in "Fanstastic Beasts and where to find them"? Does that strike > anyone else as odd? They are not even mentioned in the beginning of > the book when he classifies the terms beings and beasts. What's up > with that? > > John, who wonders if they could be some Dementors who want to join > DD. Maybe even a rare Albino Dementor who brings light instead of > darkness and happiness instead of taking it away. Perhaps because they are not beasts but people, or more strictly speaking, the undead, bodies separated from souls. OK this is just a theory and not backed by very much except they are humanoid in shape and feed off human emotions. Also by way of an extreme lateral leap they could be related to the veiled gateway, where Harry and co hear disembodied voices (trapped souls), and where Sirius has according to Lupin 'gone' and 'can't come back' but specifically no one says he's dead and there is no body! So that makes Sirius the vamp not Severus and you've gotta to love that! Harry can search for a solution/rescue in book 6 and find that the gateway is the product of salazar (its very ancient maybe 1000 years)... Jo From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 20 11:11:35 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:11:35 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_book__six_and_seven_clich=E9s?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91314 Kitten wrote: << In the next upcoming books, what would be the most horrible, mind numbing, clich?s that JKR could write? What would bring you to your knees, while you yell from pure joy? >> << Mine are... THE GOOD An Interesting, complex, "Good Slytherin" I'm rooting for Blaise Zabini, who will once and for all be confirmed to be a boy. Dumbledore dying, not because I want him dead, I just think it would be interesting to read how Harry and the Order will go on without him. Snape continuing to give Harry Occlumency lessons. Come on... tell me you didn't grin every time it was time for Occulmency lesson for Harry in the fifth book. Percy was actually a spy for the Order in the MoM; and that his whole "I'm-turning-my-back-on-my-family" thing was a front. Harry ending up with a minor character like Susan Bones, Just NOT Hermione, Ginny, or Luna. Any other house besides Gryffindor winning the House Cup, they can't possibly win all the time. I also want little Mark to come to Hogwarts, just not end up as Harry's cousin ten times removed. THE BAD... Will be very unhappy if Snape ends up being a traitor and a double- agent guy, or a vampire. Redeemed!Draco I don't care if Draco winds up fighting for the good side, but I don't want him turning all squishy and sweet. Dead!Harry or Martyr!Harry, or a permanently tortured soul Harry. Anybody but Harry defeating Voldemort... finding out that what is in the locked room is "love" then harry using it to put Voldy in a fate worse then death. I can't stand OBHWF, if this happens I'll start to spontaneously jabbing my eyes out with a spoon. Or if all of the DOM-six getting paired up with one another in a wonderful love...thing. I would be devastated if the books are less than 800 pages. Nothing JKR could write will make stop reading the books, but there are lots of things that would make me roll my eyes, Or will make me jump for joy.>> Sigune (who agrees with practically everything Kitten and other posters have listed) proposes her own: THE GOOD Dumbledore dying. I agree with Kitten's reasons, and would like to add that (to me) Dumbledore is a wonderful character who will be missed - extra reason why he should die (unfortunately). Slytherin winning the House Cup. Hufflepuff winning the House Cup. Like Kitten says, a complex, 'good' Slytherin. Sorely needed. Snape becoming Headmaster of Hogwarts somewhere in the future (my absolute pet plot; sorry if I repeat myself). THE BAD: Snape and Harry becoming great pals, or turning out to be related ('You know, Harry, I was only just pretending. Deep down I really like you' / 'Guess what, Harry, I am really your uncle Perseus'). Snape dying (*flourish* *angelic choir* 'I hereby sacrifice myself for the common good!'). Snape 'redeemed' (*sob* 'Oh, I have been so nasty, but redemption has changed me! I am a whole new man! Thank you Harry! Thank you Albus!'). Snape turning traitor to the Order ('Heh heh heh - you should have know that a guy with a hooked nose, yellowish crooked teeth, greasy hair and a sallow complexion who dresses in black, sweeps around dungeons looking like an overgrown bat and has a foul temper is really wicked!'). Vampire!Snape ('I thought I had made that QUITE obvious, dressing like I do and stalking around at night'). Lucius Malfoy dying. DeathEater!Draco. And Cuddly!Draco, as you say, Kitten. James, Lily, Sirius returned from the dead ('Surprise!' - or worse, *choir of angel voices*). All the DE's being caught, punished and everything rounded off neatly. My two Knuts... Yours severely, Sigune From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 11:34:40 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:34:40 -0000 Subject: what are the chances... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91315 Lisa: Do you think Rowling will have spin-offs, do you think she'll write a whole new series based on an upcoming new first year?" Carol: Actually, I've already answered this question in a previous post, but I doubt that anyone would be surprised by my answer even if I hadn't. Mr. Mysterious himself, Severus Snape, of course. (And Constance Vigilance will say Quirrell, am I right?)" My vote: neither. JKR won't write another series; she has a family life that takes her time and makes her happy. She probably had no concept of how overwhelming this was going to be. She might write other short books to go along with QTTA or FB, for charity. I do predict this: JKR will sanction, and there will be published, one or more officially sanctioned collections of fanfiction where *we* will tell these stories. There's plenty of precedent, from Sherlock Holmes pastiches to Star Trek fic (there was at least one, with commentary by Gene Roddenberry) to Star Wars fan films (George Lucas judges them and gives prizes to the best ones). JKR might even pick the ones that actually get published and even write a blurb for each (talk about a thrill!) Jim Ferer From belijako at online.no Fri Feb 20 11:35:55 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:35:55 -0000 Subject: Everyday Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91316 Arya wrote: why would playing Quidditch make you get muddy? Isn't mud unique to the *ground*? Er--aren't they on *brooms*--which, correct me ifI'm wrong, put you in the AIR!?!?!? Berit replies: Of course the Quidditch itself takes place up in the air, but canon suggests the players now and then fly back to the ground for a little pep-talk with their captain. Also, it's not too hard to imagine that one or two players during the course of training might fall off their brooms as they are attempting a particular difficult move... it happens :-) Thirdly, the Quidditch players always get off their brooms on the Quidditch pitch and *walk* back to the castle, they don't fly back. So it's just not possible to *play* Quidditch without getting in contact with the ground one way or the other :-) Berit htto://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 20 12:49:32 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:49:32 -0000 Subject: Initials Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91317 I know I'm going to kick myself for asking this, but what does OBHWF mean? Sylvia (not having one of her better days) From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri Feb 20 12:48:11 2004 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:48:11 +0100 Subject: Dementors References: <1077268388.3973.66265.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001e01c3f7af$cd79b9b0$4f14253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 91318 john wrote: Why are Dementors not even mentioned by Newt Scamander in "Fanstastic Beasts and where to find them"? Does that strike anyone else as odd? They are not even mentioned in the beginning of the book when he classifies the terms beings and beasts. What's up with that? Me, Fridwulfa: I think they're not mentioned because Dementors are not beasts.They are, more or less, intelligent, articulated creatures. Pseudo-human. They talk (though we never hear them but I have given evidence before that they are able to talk) they dress more or less like humans. I think they're more in the cathegory of Gobblins and elves. They're spooky, for sure, but they're not beasts. Just my two knuts. Cheers, Fridwulfa ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Feb 20 13:30:51 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:30:51 -0000 Subject: NewtPotions, was chapter12discussion/draughtof peace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91319 Carol wrote: >snip< >And BTW, I do expect (hope) to see Harry in Snape's NEWTs Potions >class because McGonagall and presumably DD want him to take it > and will "Fudge" the OWL results if necessary to get him there. Carol, I agreed with your entire post. However, I don't think anyone will have to "fudge" Harry's OWL results. Snape starts the year off by commenting on the high pass rate he has come to expect, which tells me most of his students have passed in previous years. Umbridge, and I think she was sincere, said his classes were advanced. It wasn't intended as a compliment. McGonagall was adamant that Snape "absoluley refuses" to take less than an O. So it seems something along the line had come up before. She insists on an E. I can't see her lowering her standards or expecting anyone else to lower theirs. I think Snape expects an O from Harry and for Neville to at least pass. (I would't hold my breath for Crabbe and Goyle.) Potioncat (who sometimes thinks Snape intended for the trio to whip up that batch of polyjuice) From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Fri Feb 20 14:00:25 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Campbell, Anne-TMC-Rcvg) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:00:25 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?The_Good=2C_The_Bad=2C_and_The_Ugly_=28Was=3A_Book_6_=26?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?7_clich=E9s=29?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91320 Kitten wrote: << In the next upcoming books, what would be the most horrible, mind numbing, clich?s that JKR could write? What would bring you to your knees, while you yell from pure joy? >> Well, just couldn't keep my mouth shut here, although I added another category--'The Ugly'--IE plot clich?'s that would be good but also make you twinge, either because it will hurt to read, of if it's handled wrong, it'll be...well, bad... Anyhow... THE GOOD (I agree with) An Interesting, complex, "Good Slytherin" {Kitten and Siguine} I'm also getting a bit tired of the 'All Slytherin are bad/nasty/unfriendly' etc. If Rowling really is trying to beat the 'don't-believe-in-stereotypes horse' to a well-deserved death, here's one of the best places to start! Any other house besides Gryffindor winning the House Cup. {Kitten and Siguine again} I would LOVE to see the Hufflepuffs get it--I mean, geez, they're everybody's chew toy.... Snape becoming Headmaster of Hogwarts somewhere in the future. {Siguine's--I have to admit this one just makes me grin gleefully!} I wonder if he would surpass Phineas as "Hogwarts Least Liked Headmaster"....heh Harry ending up with a minor character like Susan Bones, Just NOT Hermione, Ginny, or Luna. {Kitten} Although I'm not really big on SHIPS, I find I have to agree with this. I'm all for Harry having a happy ending, but I doubt ANY girl is in his immediate future. Maybe someday, when this is all over and he's had a few years to recover, but I doubt it will happen in view of the audience (Unless Rowling does a 'what happened to them' rundown at the end of book 7), but even then, I see him with someone...else. Okay, some of my own 'goods'.... I admit, I want to see a vampire, since Rowling keeps threatening us with one (although her 'vampires' might be the Dementors, actually...which means we've all missed the boat...). Of course, though, I DON'T want to see an 'obvious' vampire (Look below under 'BAD'...^^;) Remus getting his rights as a human re-instated so he can quit living like a vagrant and get a real job, a real home of his own...maybe even a wife...er...life....^^; Umbridge getting more than the slap on the wrist she'd had so far--I would even be glad to see that she WAS a DE, or at least a Voldy supporter...after all, where did she learn that Unforgivable...and where did she get that pen?! Snape being 'proven' once and for all, to be one of the 'good guys'. Okay, he might be a selfish, bastardly, self-interested good guy, but still a good guy. I still hold to the old adage 'Not everyone who craps on you is your enemy' Everyone actually living through the last two books. Don't know if that's in the works, but hey, we can always hope. THE BAD... Snape as a traitor, actually setting up Dumbly for a fall, or a vampire. Needless to say, I agree on all three. Not to mention that the mere IDEA of any one of the stereotypes he's been pushed into so far because of his mannerisms, dress, attitude give me the hives. Cuddly!Draco, DE!Draco, Redeemed!Draco. The kid has a 'tude that's likely to rival Snape's someday--but that doesn't automatically equate 'bad'. By the same token, the kid is not exactly an angel, although I don't think he has what it takes to become a DE.... Any other of the Snape 'stereotypes' being followed through on. (Spasms) A sudden 180 of Snape's attitude...it's what the man is, guys. Love him or leave him...just don't brainwash him (Shudders at the thought of things such as Romantic!Snape, Cuddly!Snape. Running-Through-the-Feild-Of-Flowers!Towards-His-True-Love!Snape, etc). This isn't a literary remake of Invasion of the Bodysnatchers...I think...^^; Anyone coming back from the dead (I don't include Sirius as 'dead', BTW). If I want this kind of plot, I'll go invade my Lucas/Spielberg/James Cameron (Abyss) movies....^^; Snape being anyone's long lost relative (**Heavy, respirated breathing** "Luke....I am your father, Luke.....") Lily (or James) being related to Voldemort/Tom Riddle/Mark Evans....(See above snarky comment ^^;) Harry being permanently 'crippled' by all of this. He's been resilient so far....Dead Harry would also be a bit clich?d, and make me spaz. Harry 'stooping' to DE levels...I'm not for the "Love will take care of it" scenario either, but this isn't a Japanese anime we're reading (The only time I understand rooting for the hero when he goes on a vengeful killing spree--why? Because it's part of the culture. A big part), so using your enemies ways against him isn't cool. I don't mind if he HAS to kill Voldy (which is a distinct possibility), but I will find Rowling and force feed her her own book if it comes down to Harry throwing an Unforgivable and screaming "SEE HOW IT FEELS VOLDEMORT?!" THE UGLY: Dumbly dying. Although it would be a good plot device, and there are good reasons to remove the man {Harry needing to stand on his own two feet and poor Dumbly being an old man being two of the most practical reasons}, it would still sting....a lot more than any of the deaths thus far in the books... Any other house besides Gryffindor winning the House Cup, they can't possibly win all the time. {Kitten and Siguine again} I put this here too. Why? Well, I don't know if anyone has noticed, but other then in book 5...Harry has been on the team the whole time they've been winning. NO offence to the 'hero'...but....um...well, I think you know what I'm getting at... Snape and Harry finally understanding each other. No sappy junk...just understanding. A little respect...and the ability to talk to each other civilly and mean it. Sirius returning from behind the Veil (Although I would lean more towards "BAD" for this one) Sirius being a Vampire (Poetic Justice for a man who so vehemently is 'against' the Dark Arts and its creatures--give him a little understanding, and maybe he and Snape will quit sniping at each other...well, quit sniping at each other quite so much...^^;) Ron and Hermione SHIP....about the only SHIP I see happening.... One or more of the mysterious 'mates' of the teachers being a DE or otherwise evil (or a past victim of the same). Snape having a 'tragic loss' (which might explain his joining the DE and/or turning away from them) in his past. Of course, this is SO clich? that likely we'll all retch reading it the first time, no matter how well Rowling might write it...lol. Mark Evans being more then just a red herring...as long as he's more than just a 'long lost relative'.... Harry defeating Voldemort single-handedly. It'll be one thing if he and old Moldy go it mano-a-mano in the final battle, but if Harry pulls a 'superdude' number and takes on all the DE by himself (and wins), I'll be peeved. He better have some help...significant help.... Anne From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Feb 20 15:35:09 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:35:09 -0000 Subject: What happened to Trelawney? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "brwneil" wrote: > Dolores was about to kick Trelawney out of the castle when Dumbledore > steped and said that Umbridge had the right to fire her, but > couldn't make her leave the castle. The headmaster decided who could > and couldn't live in the castle. > > One would assume then that as soon as Dumbledore was gone and > Umbridge was made Headmistrest she would have sent Trelawney packing > as one of her first acts, but we hear nothing. Is this sort of an > unwritten Flint? Or did both Rowling and Umbridge forget she was > still in the tower drinking her sherry? Jen: Interesting point. My guess is Umbridge's main goal was to get Dumbeldore out from the bottom up by slowly replacing his loyal staff. So it wasn't Trelawney per se that she was worried about, especially once Dumbeldore left on his own. Then, once DD is out, the chaos begins and Umbridge has her hands full for the rest of her time as Headmistress. None of the other teachers would remind her Trelawney is still there, and Filch probably never sees her. From CoyotesChild at charter.net Fri Feb 20 15:39:18 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:39:18 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BHPforGrownups=5D_The_Good=2C_The_Bad=2C_and_The_Ugl?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?y_=28Was:_Book_6_&7_clich=E9s=29?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c3f7c7$b71c8cc0$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 91322 Iggy here: I might as well jump into this one. I agree with the GOOD: Complex/Good!Slytherin (and I agree that it should be Blaise.) Some house other than Gryf winning the House Cup (I'd love to see Hufflepuff win it because they deserve to once in a while.) Remus being vindicated somehow. Snape proving that he's one of the good guys. Dumbledore dying. (I agree, he's a cool character, but I'd like to see what the school and the OotP can do without his direction and leadership. He needs to die at the end of Book 6. Minerva will step up as Headmistress, since she's his deputy already.) Fudge and Umbridge getting their comeuppance. (In part, by Arthur being named Minister.) The Longbottoms being cured and freed. Uber!Neville (Him getting a new wand and finally proving that he ranks right up there with Harry.) I agree with the BAD: Vampire!Snape (For those of you who are looking for vampires, look to the Dementors. They are very similar to a form of Gaki... a Japanese vampire. One type feeds off of negative emotions and consumes your soul... which makes me wonder if that's where JKR got the idea.) Traitor!Snape (WAY too obvious. JKR doesn't tend to be that overt.) Nice!Snape / Hidden-Relation!Snape / Goody-Goody!Snape / I-Love-Harry!Snape. (All would make me want to put down the books and walk away from them forever. Snape is cool because he shows that you don't need to be a nice guy to be a good guy. Toning down the mean-ness would be acceptable, but he should always be a bit of a jerk.) Traitor!Lupin (Or, actually, anyone as a traitor who's in the order. They've already been betrayed by Kreacher in OotP, why do it again?) ESE!ANYONE (She's already had a number of seemingly nice, innocent, weak, etc.. people turn out to be evil and/or spineless traitors a'la Quirrel, Lockhart, Peter, and Crouch Jr... and that's in the first 4 books. Why keep up the trend? Not only would it be redundant, but it would show a lack of overall creativity. It would end up being like half the episodes of Scooby Doo. "There's 3 new characters in this episode? Two are risking losing their farm because of the Scummy Bog Beast? Ok, the bad guy is number three.") Nice!Draco (I don't mind if he "sees the light"... I just want him to still be a jerk. Heck, I'd love it if Draco ends up resenting Harry for shattering the delusions he's built up around himself. After all, he would be a better person for it in the long run, but he doesn't have to LIKE seeing the world in the harsh light of reality.) > Anne: > Snape being anyone's long lost relative (**Heavy, respirated breathing** > "Luke....I am your father, Luke.....") Iggy here: (This one has already been done... by me. *grin* Just look up my WARP of the Empire Strikes Back.) > Anne: > Harry 'stooping' to DE levels...I'm not for the "Love will take care of > it" scenario either, but this isn't a Japanese anime we're reading (The > only time I understand rooting for the hero when he goes on a vengeful > killing spree--why? Because it's part of the culture. A big part), so > using your enemies ways against him isn't cool. I don't mind if he HAS to > kill Voldy (which is a distinct possibility), but I will find Rowling and > force feed her her own book if it comes down to Harry throwing an > Unforgivable and screaming "SEE HOW IT FEELS VOLDEMORT?!" Iggy here: I agree with this one... Only I wouldn't be shoving the book down her throat. (Use your head... you'll figure it out.) As for the "killing spree for vengeance", I also agree with this in *some* non-anime action movies. Other than that, you're right... in any case, you shouldn't have the hero stoop to the villain's methods. Ok, now for a few of my own: The GOOD = Dudley or Petunia... or even Vernon... being the "the late bloomer." (For one, I'd love to see how this would effect Vernon. Dudley would see the world more from Harry's view if he's the late one. Petunia would see the world from Lilly AND Harry's view more closely. Vernon's head would probably explode in any case.) The Creevy brothers (both of them) ending up on the Gryff Quidditch team. (I'd just love to see how this one would turn out. It would also qualify as a clich? since you'd have a new set of close brothers on the team.) Peter redeeming himself somehow. (That "life debt" between him and Harry is still in effect. I'd love to see it play out in some significant manner in the next two books. Preferably not at the very end, a'la Darth Vader and the Emperor, though. Harry needs time to appreciate what Peter has done.) Flitwick showing his true power. (Flitwick is my favorite steady teacher at Hogwarts... Lupin and Fake!Moody actually being my favorites for different reasons, but they didn't stay... I'd love to see him show why he was a dueling champion in his youth, for one thing.) The NEUTRAL (these are things that I might want to see, but still have mixed emotions about. How it's written would determine whether it's "good" or "evil".) = Rita Skeeter becoming a good reporter. (I think it would be interesting to see Rita Skeeter realize the benefits of doing good reporting rather than scandal writing, mud-slinging, and muck raking. I'm mixed on it because the deciding factors would be in both how it comes about, and how JKR writes it up.) Harry using what's behind the "sealed door" in the MoM against Voldemort. (IMHO, I think that the only way it can really be done well is if it's used indirectly. Like if it's love, Harry getting into the room, getting emotionally "recharged" and strengthened, and then facing Voldemort on his own. Shoving Voldie into a room of love and having him be dissolved/redeemed by it would be as lame a resolution as the "Love Gun" solution in the "Maximum Carnage" mini-series in the Spider Man comics.) Harry and the Dursleys reaching a "truce." (I don't think it would work if they got all lovey dovey with him and accepting him as being like a son. On the other hand, having the second Wizard War bringing home to them what Harry is dealing with, and that he DID save Dudley's life/soul. I'd like to see them ease up off of him, but not get all mushy.) The EVIL = ANY "Time Turner causing someone to be someone else" plot. (Doesn't work on the large scale, already done on the small scale at the end of PoA with Harry thinking he was his own father.) ANY "hidden relative" plot involving Harry. (This even applies to Mark Evans. If Mark is related, it needs to be second cousin or further away. We've already seen something like that in Sirius as Harry's hidden Godfather. Repeating this in any way wouldn't feel right to me.) Filch or Figg as the "late bloomer." (I'm sorry all, but I think those two need to remain as Squibs. For one thing, they show that there's nice Squibs and nasty Squibs, just like with Muggles and Wizards. For another, I can't see either of them having a working plotline to get their magic. Besides, it would feel too much like "be a good little Squib and you will earn your wings" with Figg, or "be as mean and resentful as you want to be, but as long as you live at Hogwarts, you'll get magic" with Filch... doesn't work for me.) Dobby as a "true hero." (Sorry again here, all... but that doesn't work for me either. Dobby is right where he needs to be, IMHO. He's saved Harry's butt a few times already, and in a way that works for a character like Dobby. He can save Harry's backside again, but it should be in the same way he's been doing it in the past. If he leads a House Elf Army, he should just be the "spokesman" of a unified force, rather than the "General of the Mighty House Elf Regulars.") Martyr!Harry (Nope... Harry needs to live. Him dying the "noble death of sacrifice" would just feel too cheesy to me... and I'm lactose intolerant. IMHO, JKR needs to end out the series with Harry being able to lead a moderately normal life compared to what he's living now.) I think that covers most of my thoughts on this... Iggy McSnurd From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Feb 20 15:45:12 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:45:12 -0000 Subject: What happened to Trelawney? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Jen: Interesting point. My guess is Umbridge's main goal was to get > Dumbeldore out from the bottom up by slowly replacing his loyal > staff. So it wasn't Trelawney per se that she was worried about, > especially once Dumbeldore left on his own. Then, once DD is out, > the chaos begins and Umbridge has her hands full for the rest of her > time as Headmistress. None of the other teachers would remind her > Trelawney is still there, and Filch probably never sees her. Yes, I basically agree with this, and I want to add, that Filch also doesn't basically care what happens to Trelawney. His aim is to get Peeves out and to punish the troublemakers 'properly' (Properly from his point of view, of course). Therefore I don't think he would tell Umbridge that Trelawney is still in Hogwarts. Of course Umbridge can't be that forgetful not to remember Trelawney at all, but I think Jen has gotten the nail on the head, when she says, that Umbridge wanted Trelawney out, because Trelawney was hired by Dumbledore and that Dumbledore was the real target. With Dumbledore gone, she didn't care anymore for Trelawney. Hickengruendler From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Feb 20 15:49:16 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:49:16 -0000 Subject: Initials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91324 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > I know I'm going to kick myself for asking this, but what does OBHWF > mean? > Sylvia (not having one of her better days) OBHWF means 'One Big Happy Weasley Family'. It means that every Weasley is shipped with someone and that they all live happily ever after. OBHWF always includes Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione and mostly Percy/Penelope, Fred/Angelina, George/Alicia or Katie, Bill/Fleur and Charlie/someone not yet introduced. And of course Arthur/Molly. Hickengruendler From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 20 16:05:02 2004 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:05:02 -0000 Subject: Culpeper, Remus and Peter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91325 The HP fandom has been speculating wildly about the final fates of the two remaining 'Marauders', and I thought I'd add a little more wood to the fire in the form of probably irrelevant information. First, though, if you're of the fanfic-writing persuasion, the complete text of Nicholas Culpeper's Complete Herbal is online at http://www.bibliomania.com/2/1/66/113/frameset.html. Brilliant resource for Potions recipes. Anyway, here's what Culpeper says about lupines (incidentally, the flowers were named after wolves because they flourished in the wilderness and were thought to rob the soil of nutrients like predators): "Lupines, ease the pains of the spleen, *kill worms and cast them out* [emphasis mine]: outwardly, they cleanse filthy ulcers, and gangrenes, help scabs, itch, and inflammations." Just thought I'd share. Alshain From capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net Fri Feb 20 16:42:45 2004 From: capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net (capehoneysuckle) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:42:45 -0000 Subject: Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91326 johnbowman19 wrote: > Why are Dementors not even mentioned by Newt Scamander > (snip) > John, who wonders if they could be some Dementors who want to join > DD. Maybe even a rare Albino Dementor who brings light instead of > darkness and happiness instead of taking it away. The albino Dementor idea is fascinating. JKR seems to intend Dementors to be personifications of clinical depression, (some interview suggested this, I think) in which case it would not be too much of a stretch to imagine personifications of other common mental illnesses. Bipolar disorder, for example, may be personified by a being who exists alternately in one of two forms. We could call this being a "Janus". One form of the Janus would be the usual Dementor form, sapping all of one's happy memories and energy and forcing one to think of one's worst memories. The other form would cause a person in its vicinity to imagine that he or she is beautiful, invincible, rich, popular, and extremely energetic, causing the person to party for days on end, buy things they don't need, and give away money they can't spare to "friends" they meet on buses. Or how about a "Phantasmagoria" being, which causes those in the vicinity to experience hallucinations and delusions? Is there anybody we've met in the story so far who seems to have one of these in her attic? Honey (who is afraid this might be just a bit OT) From belijako at online.no Fri Feb 20 17:40:18 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:40:18 -0000 Subject: Initials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91327 Hickengruendler wrote: OBHWF means 'One Big Happy Weasley Family'. It means that every Weasley is shipped with someone and that they all live happily ever after. OBHWF always includes Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione and mostly Percy/Penelope, Fred/Angelina, George/Alicia or Katie, Bill/Fleur and Charlie/someone not yet introduced. And of course Arthur/Molly. Berit replies: Age-wise, and even personality-wise I believe Tonks might turn out to be a very nice match for Charlie... don't you think? :-) Berit (who likes the thought of OBHWF) http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 20 17:53:12 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:53:12 -0000 Subject: what are the chances... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91328 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lisa graves" wrote: > Do you think Rowling will have spin-offs, do you think she'll write > a whole new series based on an upcoming new first year? > > If you could see any character developed into his or her own > storylines, who would it be and why? Personally, I'd love Rowling > to go back and tell DD's entire life story. > > -Tonkswannabe Siriusly Snapey Susan: I don't know that any spinoffs are likely. But if she does anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it's Hogwarts, A History. Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 20 18:19:42 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:19:42 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_book__six_and_seven_clich=E9s?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91329 hermionekitten9 wrote: > I saw this question on another web site, so I don't take any credit > for it; I just thought that it was really interesting. > > In the next upcoming books, what would be the most horrible, mind > numbing, clich?s that JKR could write? What would bring you to > your knees, while you yell from pure joy? Things like Vampire > Snape, sicky-sweet Draco, Harry getting some advise from Sirus via > a painting or a Spellotaped mirror, Harry/ Hermione, Ron/ Luna, > Neville goin' Matrix on Bellatrix, or Voldy. Siriusly Snapey Susan now: Thanks for bringing this up, Kitten; it's a fun thread. And I like Anne's extension to The Good, The Bad & The Ugly. THE GOOD Bellatrix is "dealt with" satisfactorily [any number of ways!] The demise of Voldy is CLEAR--meaning, whatever happens, there's no doubt what it is & what it means. Wormtail turns from Voldy but still gets his punishment for being a wuss. Alternatively, what Alshain alluded to here: "Lupines, ease the pains of the spleen, *kill worms and cast them out* [emphasis mine]" ...in other words, Remus gets to kill Pettigrew, which I'm sure would feel good on some level, after losing James & Sirius. OBHWF - MINUS ONE. That is, either Percy turns fully to the dark side or one of the boys is toast, but beyond that, the rest of the Weasleys form OBHWF. [Sorry, that's my consession to saccharine.] THE BAD Harry dies. Snape's FULL motivations for joining the DEs and leaving the DEs are not revealed. Evil!Lupin [I can't tolerate the "loss" of all four Marauders to death or darkness!] Ron = Dumbledore Luna + Harry = couple [ick] Sevvie dies. [Not that I'd like seeing DD die, but I *think* I'd rather see DD die than Snape. DD's lived a full, productive life; Sevvie's still in his 30s.] We don't find out which teachers are married & where those spouses are! THE UGLY The Creevey Brothers become a big part of the storyline. SPEW turns out to the "the heart of it all". [Dealing w/ prejudice would be a welcome topic, but NOT having SPEW turn out to be the solution.] Harry gets turned on by Bellatrix. Respectfully & opinionatedly submitted, Siriusly Snapey Susan From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 18:38:47 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:38:47 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_The_Good,_The_Bad,_and_The_Ugly_(Was:_Book_6_&7_clich=E9s)?= In-Reply-To: <000601c3f7c7$b71c8cc0$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91330 Ginger here: I snipped previous responses, although I enjoyed them thouroughly. I agreed with many and disagreed with some. I laughed, I cried, it moved me, Bob. So here's mine, most of which would most likely be in the epilogue. Good: Harry defeats LV and becomes seeker for the Cannons. Ginny Potter as MoM. Ron and Hermione Weasley as aurors. Bill and Remus living happily ever after together. Snape accidently curing lycanthropy and having to be the object of Remus' undying gratitude. The house-elves setting Hermione down and giving her a good talking to about minding her own business. Healer Neville Longbottom curing his parents. Bad: Dead!Molly or Arthur before the end of the series. Redeemed!Draco, although Inept!Draco accidently aiding the Order would be funny. LV turning into just plain misunderstood little Tommy. Bleh! He *chose* to go bad. ESE!Lupin (sorry Pippin, but see above.) Dead!Dumbledore. I just think he deserves to see things turn out well. Things not turning out well. Ugly: Bill and Fleur. Oh, the family reunions. Indigestion would reign. Draco shipped with anyone other than Pansy. Harry/Pansy. Snape and Lockhart in a Mindmeld or Freaky Friday situation. Crabbe and Goyle marrying giantesses or trolls. Assuming H/G and R/H, their children coming home engaged to the offspring of the Crabbe and Goyle unions mentioned above. LV winning. Weird: Harry writing his memoirs, and sending them back in time via clockwork owl to a certain J K Rowling to publish. JKR is actually a listee with just a *little too much insight* into this world. (MDDT?) Ginger, looking suspiciously around the list. From cmbrichards at aol.com Fri Feb 20 11:21:34 2004 From: cmbrichards at aol.com (cmbrichards) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:21:34 -0000 Subject: A maddening question of my own In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chelle" wrote: > dj_bagshaw wrote: > > In CoS, we learn that Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts for "opening > > the chamber of secrets". Now that his name has been cleared, why is > > he still not allowed to practice and/or learn magic? If it was all a > > misunderstanding (as it turns out it was), why can't he have a wand > > again? > > > His name hasn't been cleared yet. No one was willing to admit LV was > back in book 2. Just now, at the end of book 5 the Ministry is > admitting LV is back and Hagrid has the chance to be cleared. > Whether he will or not may be another matter.... > > ~ Chelle Now Christal: Maybe I am misunderstanding what it is you are trying to say here, but if you are saying the MoM did not clear Hagrid already, I have to disagree. The reasoning being that at the end of COS, Hagrid is released from Azkaban, and allowed to return to Hogwarts. The following year he is given a teaching position at Hogwarts. These events indicate, to me at least, that the MOM did in fact clear Hagrid's name. From dk59us at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 17:15:10 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (dk59us) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:15:10 -0000 Subject: Quidditch/ jealousy was,Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: <16010090745.20040219203058@msn.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91332 Hello, I don't think we really disagree much on this. Eustace_Scrubb asked: As a result of Harry's elevation to Captain, might we see a re-emergence of the jealousy that he has felt towards Harry in earlier books? Susanne commented: Sure. I'd imagine Ron might feel a burst of jealousy, just like Harry felt jealous, when Ron received the prefect badge. If Ron became captain, Harry would probably feel envy, and if someone completely different were chosen, both boys might feel a bit slighted. What I'm trying to say is, that jealousy is perfectly normal, and I don't think there is a person on earth who hasn't had that feeling, occasionally. I didn't see Ron's jealousy in book 4 as anything unusual or shameful. In fact, I was surprised it didn't pop up a lot more early on, considering their age. Same with Harry in book 5. After some initial nastiness, both boys seem to be able to work through their feelings, without starting to hate each other, or plan to join the DE at the next opportunity, to get back at the other. And I'm aware that you may have not been getting into this subject at all with your post! :) Now, Eustace_Scrubb again: Well, yes and no, I suppose. I agree that jealousy is a completely normal feeling, especially amongst friends of Hogwarts age. Not at all shameful unless it leads one to do bad things. Which it hasn't thus far (aside from some quite normal snits that haven't lasted). I wonder though whether there might be a cumulative effect on Ron that might at some point cause him to do something he'll regret the next minute, but which he might not be able to undo so easily; I'm not suggesting that this is likely, just a possibility. Small squabbles sometimes have large consequences. Susanne again: I guess I'm just reacting to this often mentioned jealous!Ron image that usually goes along with him turning into a completely nasty character, as if having this emotion automatically makes it impossible for someone to also be a good person ;) And as if Ron were the only person in the HP series, who had ever fallen prey to jealousy. Eustace_Scrubb: I understand your frustration. I wouldn't for a moment expect Ron to suddenly become a bad guy (or even an ambitious, aloof git like Percy), but good people lose perspective sometimes when they feel jealousy or temptation or unjust persecution or any number of other normal emotions. I mean jealous!Ron coexists with brave!Ron and strategist!Ron and funny!Ron and 6th_son!Ron--these aren't one-dimensional characters (well, not the main ones, anyway) and that's why readers are attached to them. And I also guess that as we get closer and closer to the last page of Book 7, the stakes are going to be considerably higher than they were in Book 4 and small errors in judgement may have greater fallout. Susanne: And yes, I do think both boys, or at least Ron, would see something different in the Mirror of Erised, nowadays. Eustace_Scrubb: Again, I think we pretty much agree here. I think it's highly likely Ron would see something different, which might make all of the above beside the point. What Harry would see--now there's an interesting question: now that he's seen a bit more of his parents in the Pensieve, and since that wasn't all to his liking, would he still see his parents and family? If so, would Sirius be with them now? Or would the vision be completely different...say, a world without LV and without a prophecy hanging over his head? I think he may well have quite enough to be going along with without worrying about Quidditch strategy. Regards, Eustace_Scrubb From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 18:50:44 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:50:44 -0000 Subject: Initials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91333 Berit wrote:- > Age-wise, and even personality-wise I believe Tonks might turn out to > be a very nice match for Charlie... don't you think? :-) > > Berit (who likes the thought of OBHWF) > http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html I'm not sure that I don't like OBHWF too... as long as the whole thing isn't TOO sweet and sticky. If the book ends on a septuple wedding, or on eight happy couples strolling down the front stairs into the sunset, I think I'll puke. As for Tonks/Charlie... well, I'll buy personality match. But if we go with the idea that Tonks went straight from Hogwarts to Auror training (three years), followed by a year on active duty, then she's 20 or 21--five or six years older than the Trio and Co. Isn't Charlie in his mid-20s? Or am I screwing up the timeline in my head? And, then, it's always possible that Nymphadora (she's got to end up as SOMEONE's romantic interest with a name like that!) didn't qualify as an Auror right out of school.... From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 20 19:21:04 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:21:04 -0000 Subject: Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91334 JO Wrote: > Perhaps because they are not beasts but people, or more strictly > speaking, the undead, bodies separated from souls. OK this is just a > theory and not backed by very much except they are humanoid in shape > and feed off human emotions. Also by way of an extreme lateral leap > they could be related to the veiled gateway, where Harry and co hear > disembodied voices (trapped souls), and where Sirius has according to > Lupin 'gone' and 'can't come back' but specifically no one says he's > dead and there is no body! > > So that makes Sirius the vamp not Severus and you've gotta to love that! > snip > Jo I doubt Sirius will turn up as undead but your post did make me think about the possibility that Dementors are created with a "kiss". Perhaps this is where we will discover what has happened to Barty Jr. Maybe Voldy is even trying to find a way (perhaps asking his servant Snape the Potions Master) to reunite the new dementor with his wandering body. Creepy, no doubt. Sue, who apologizes for mispelling McGonagall in her last post. Nothing like a 7 year old having a tantrum behind you to disrupt the thought process. From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 19:07:11 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:07:11 -0000 Subject: Dementors In-Reply-To: <001e01c3f7af$cd79b9b0$4f14253e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91335 Fridwulfa wrote: >>> I think they're not mentioned because Dementors are not beasts.They are, more or less, intelligent, articulated creatures. Pseudo-human. They talk (though we never hear them but I have given evidence before that they are able to talk) they dress more or less like humans. I think they're more in the cathegory of Gobblins and elves. They're spooky, for sure, but they're not beasts.<<< Thanks for your two knuts Fridwulfa. however I disagree. in the introduction there are numerous references to what would classify as a being, and goblins and are mentioned but I do not believe elves are. thats an interesting fact too. house elves are not mentioned throughout the book. since these two clearly understand wizarding laws they should be classified as beings. not beasts. On further thought this would explain why they are not mentioned. They are beings. Not beasts. Thanks for the thoughts. John who would like to see books on beings and spirits as well. PS also what would be an interesting creature of your imagination that you would like to see in the Harry Potter universe? From pfsch at gmx.de Fri Feb 20 19:34:50 2004 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:34:50 -0000 Subject: The Potters' grave (was: Re: Regulus Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91336 Hi! MaggieB: Which begs the question, why hasn't Harry asked where his parents are buried? Anatol (Peter) now: Well, I asked the same thing a little time ago. The answer was finally something like Harry was drilled not to ask questions by the Dursleys. Which isn't too improbable. He might see that grave - if there is one - in future books (final showdown?). Voldemort could try to do something with their bones to finally beat Harry. But that theory that wizards/witches aren't buried is a quite interesting one. Anyway, my objection is, that Cedric asked Harry to take his corpse back to his parents. Why should it be of any importance if it isn't buried. Also it proves, that the Avada Kedavra curse does "only" kill, it doesn't vaporize the body. I can't remember anyone bother about Sirius's corpse, though. He wasn't kill by the AK curse, was he? Perhaps the WW vaporizes the bodies of their late ones as a funeral ceremony? Goodbite Anatol (www.setrok.de) From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Fri Feb 20 15:25:58 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (jozoed) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:25:58 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Dark Arts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91337 "jozoed" wrote: > Has anyone considered that after the events in OOTP Harry may, for a > short period, be tempted by the Dark arts? AC: > I hate to go cross-series, but doesn't that sound very Return of the > Jedi? You're right... very Star Wars. Hadn't thought of that! But then JKR does take a lot of her influences from other great sagas... plenty of parallels with Lord of the Rings etc... and I agree- enough of the stroppy teenager! But a dark Harry might not necesssarily be moping around, but causing chaos instead? Oh well. It's nice to theorise! "jozoed" From kwihrig at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 19:35:21 2004 From: kwihrig at yahoo.com (kwihrig) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:35:21 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_book__six_and_seven_clich=E9s?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91338 I'm new, I admit, but I don't see Harry Potter pulling a Patrick Duffy, stepping out of the shower after 7 dreamt years at Hogwarts. I think we can expect at least the following from the next two books: - Lily and James are seen a couple more times, but never brought back from the dead. Anti-climactic. - Maybe a visit from one of Harry's grandparents - Petunia is revealed to be at least a squib, probably an untrained witch - At the end of book 7, Harry will, of course, become the DADA teacher. Who else can do it? - Harry marries, yes, you guessed it, Luna Lovegood. With a name like that, how can I miss? - Harry and Snape become friends, sort of. - Harry meets Regulus Black. - JK lives a long, wealthy life, and writes another HP book 5 years after book 7, to wrap up the series. I don't expect her to stay in the Potterverse after 7, but she may return for a bit. To me, the above seem like obvious developments. From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 20:15:57 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:15:57 -0000 Subject: HOW many classmates? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91339 Ok, re-reading Chapter 12 OotP and noticed something that I had not registered fully before,when Harry confronts Umbridge during the DADA lesson (p221 Uk ed): " 'It was murder,' said Harry. He could feel himself shaking. He had hardly spoken to anyone about this, least of all THIRTY eagerly listening classmates. 'Voldemort killed him and you know it.'" Woah, there! THIRTY classmates? We have only 8 known Gryffindors in Harry's year, and it has been widely assumed that this is the entire Gryffindor complement ('cepting two possible extra Gryff girls...). So are the Gryffindors sharing their lessons with other houses now? Or is this evidence that Gryffindor, and by logic the other houses too, has many more students than we have been introduced to? The '1000 or so' that JKR has told us of? Far as I can remember, there is no mention through the rest of OotP of the Gryffindors sharing their DADA lesson with other houses, and I remember that infamous DADA lesson in PoA with the Boggart!Snape, and then Lupin's class was only Gryffindors - my canon " Well done, everyone. Let me see...five points to Gryffindor for every person to tackle the Boggart, ten for Neville because he did it twice - and five each to Harry and Hermione". Is thirty classmates a flint? Is JKR herself suffering from movie contamination (as there is some evidence she is later in OotP!) Or are we not just missing 2 girls from Gryffindor, but a further 22 students, boys and girls? I think its possible that there are other boy and girl dorms for the Gryffindors in Harry's year and we have only met the classmates that share Harry's and Hermione's dorms. It would certainly make more sense that the Gryffindor classes and year group is larger than just 8...what do you think? Has this already been discussed? Can you find canon that Harry is sharing his DADA lesson with other houses? Or is this just further evidence that Harry's assertion in PS that he can "do maths and stuff" was a wild lie and in fact he suffers from a curious number blindness, which would explain all the other *number* discrepancies elsewhere in the book (the number of students attending the Yule Ball, the number watching the Quidditch World Cup, the number of DEs in the graveyard, I could go on...). dorapye From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 19:37:46 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:37:46 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (Was: Book 6 &7 clichs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91340 I'm snipping much, though I enjoyed all: Ginger: > Good: > Harry as Seeker for the Cannons. Doesn't the boy deserve a quiet retirement after the seven years of hell JKR will have put him through??? >Ginny Potter as MoM. I think we need to buy into the fact that the seventh book is going to end in mid-June of 1998--that is, at the end of the Trio's seventh year. So, much as I buy the Ship, and much as I think she'd serve admirably, I think (given Ron's "I'm as likely to win the Quidditch Cup as my Dad is to become Minister of Magic" foreshadowing) we're more likely to see Arthur take over the Ministry somewhere in Book Seven: Harry Potter and the Return of the Weasleys. > Snape accidently curing lycanthropy and having > to be the object of Remus' undying gratitude. Ooo, now that's a good one I hadn't thought of! > Healer Neville Longbottom curing his parents. Likewise! That is a very satisfying idea.... > Bad: > Dead!Molly or Arthur before the end of the series. I don't know that I agree. But then, I've been dealing with the loss of a parent recently and so that plotline has a certain resonance for me.... > Redeemed!Draco, although Inept!Draco accidently > aiding the Order would be funny. Agreed on both counts. > LV turning into just plain misunderstood little Tommy. > Bleh! He *chose* to go bad. Oh, yes. That would stink. Although, I must say, much as Return of the Jedi is my least favorite of the original Star Wars movies, the redemption of Anakin is one of the most satisfying parts of the film--sappy, but satisfying. So perhaps, with those three drops of Potter blood in his veins, LV will lose the purity of his evil... > Dead!Dumbledore. I just think he deserves to see things > turn out well. Actually, I think it's time for Harry and Company to be forced to battle the nasties without the DD cavalry there to save the day. The final victory has to be entirely the responsibility of Harry and (possibly) his friends--if we get yet another DD-explains-everything ending at the end of Book 7, it won't be anywhere near as satisfying as Harry making the end happen, in full knowledge and power--and with no one to back him up. Hate to bring up SW again, but there's a reason that Obi Wan and Yoda die before the ends of the first and third movies... > Things not turning out well. No kidding. If it ends up all going to hell, or all a variation on the movie Brazil (ie, Harry dreaming in the cupboard--brilliant but thoroughly depressing) I think JKR will watch the series go from the most popular ever straight into the dustbin of popular culture. Not that we want all sweetness and light, of course. ;-) > Ugly: > Bill and Fleur. Oh, the family reunions. Indigestion would reign. I don't know--Imagine their children's hair! And the addition of a little French cuisine to leaven Molly's taste for country-style English food! > Harry/Pansy. Ick! > Snape and Lockhart in a Mindmeld or Freaky Friday situation. Ibid. > Weird: > Harry writing his memoirs, and sending them back in time via > clockwork owl to a certain J K Rowling to publish. Well, that's better than the Brazil/Bob Newhart Show ending, with him waking up at 4 Privet Dr, yes? > JKR is actually a listee with just a *little too much insight* > into this world. Well, in that regard, you can be assured she ain't me! Here's a few items from my Wish/Don't Wish list: Good: Continued maturation and growth for ALL the characters--including the baddies. Some new characters to continue changing the mix, a la Tonks, Kingsley, Mundungus, etc. Some insight and surprises into Harry's family background--both on the Muggle and wizard side. Harry actually learns to trust someone. (Let go of your anger, Harry. Use the Force... er... Find the magic within!) Bad: We never get any further insight into Snape/Draco/etc. than we've already seen (I really don't think this is likely.) Harry gets more and more bitter and just turns his back on everyone. (Ditto) We finish the series without having met a single Slytherin with any redeeming qualities at all. Ugly: One of the Trio switches sides. Draco/Crabbe/Goyle/Pansy falls in love with Hermione/Ginny/Harry/Ron and instantly becomes a goodie-goodie. I mean, in Pride and Prejudice, Austen sets that up from page one (or maybe its page three)--there's just no support for that kind of revelation here. At least, not yet. We spend two more books of Harry being surly and snapping at people constantly. I mean, even teens do move beyond that phase eventually.... Ron/Hermione finally figure out that they like each other in the last chapter of Book Seven. I mean, come on, even Ron's not THAT dense! (I'm not saying they HAVE to end up together, but they need to at least acknowledge it sometime in the next sixteen-hundred pages, right?) The actual person who saves the day--that is, the subject of Trelawney's famous oracle--is someone we don't even know. I mean, it COULD be a wizard from outside of England, yes? But wouldn't that be a total let-down? JKR kills off so many of the main and secondary characters that there isn't a single Ship left.... but then, I love Jane Austen novels ;-) Yers, AC From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 19:42:15 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:42:15 -0000 Subject: The Potters' grave (was: Re: Regulus Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91341 Anatol wrote: (snipped) > He might see that grave - if there is one - in future books (final > showdown?). Voldemort could try to do something with their bones to > finally beat Harry. Oooo! I like that! OTher than Hogwarts, that's the most logical place for the final battle! > I can't remember > anyone bother about Sirius's corpse, though. He wasn't kill by the AK > curse, was he? Perhaps the WW vaporizes the bodies of their late ones > as a funeral ceremony? But Sirius wasn't *killed*, he fell behind the Black Veil, that Jungian deathplace about which I'm sure we will be discovering more in the books to come. AC From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 20:34:32 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:34:32 -0000 Subject: Time turner problems (Was: PoA Plot does not work) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91342 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Annemehr: > > > > By the way, I snipped the part where you figure Harry would have > > recognised Avery. The DEs in the graveyard were all hooded, so > > Harry's never actually seen him. I did think the baby headed DE might > > not be Avery because their voices seem different, though. > Carol: > He saw Avery tortured in one of his dream visions, didn't he? That's > what I had in mind, anyway. Annemehr: Harry had woken up before then. Thanks to the Lexicon chapter summary, I found the dream he had; it's in ch. 26. By the time Avery was being tortured, Harry only felt terrible pains in his scar and was biting on his pillow to stop himself making a noise. Carol: (I snipped your suggestion that it was > Rabastan, but I don't think it was him because I think he followed > Bellatrix with Rodolphus. I'll have to go back and read your post when > it isn't 1:44 in the morning. Annemehr: Well, when Malfoy first paired them off and sent them after the escaping kids, he paired Rabastan with Crabbe and sent them in the opposite direction to Rodolphus and Bellatrix. I don't think there's any way at all of telling exactly who followed Ron, Ginny and Luna into the brain room with Bellatrix -- if you saw something I missed, let me know! Oh! I just checked something else! Right after Harry and the kids smashed prophecy orbs and ran from the DEs, Harry, Hermione and Neville ran to the end of the row and turned RIGHT (p.787, Scholastic -- the very last words on that page). They arrive in the Time room and Colloportus the door. Harry hears Malfoy pairing off the DEs and Malfoy tells Crabbe and Rabastan to go RIGHT also (p. 788)! So I really do believe the two DEs who almost immediately break into that room are indeed Crabbe and Rabastan, one of whom is the Baby-Head DE! Carol: It's good to know that I'm not the only > person who cares who the DEs are. Not that I like them, of course. I'm > just curious about them. > > Carol Annemehr: I with you! I want to know who they are, I wonder if any of those who weren't named are anyone we know, and I think figuring out this DoM battle is like doing a logic puzzle. :) Annemehr who was up till 3:30 a.m., =O and has never read the analysis of the DoM battle on the Lexicon; puts it on her list of things to do... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 21:07:06 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:07:06 -0000 Subject: Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91343 John wrote: Why are Dementors not even mentioned by Newt Scamander in "Fanstastic Beasts and where to find them"? Does that strike anyone else as odd? They are not even mentioned in the beginning of the book when he classifies the terms beings and beasts. What's up with that? Jo wrote: Perhaps because they are not beasts but people, or more strictly speaking, the undead, bodies separated from souls. OK this is just a theory and not backed by very much except they are humanoid in shape and feed off human emotions. Carol: I agree that they're beings, not beast, which is why they're not in FB, but I don't think they're undead people. JKR has said that they're personifications of depression, so I would classify them, for lack of a better term, as evil spirits rather than "undead bodies separated from souls,' which sounds more like zombies. (Note that zombies apparently do exist in the WW as a distinct entity, as they appear as someone's boggart in PoA). Also, they are taller than people and have no eyes and only a hole for a mouth. I don't think they were ever people, but I have no idea how such a monstrous entity would be created or born. It's possible that a Dementor's victim turns into a Dementor, but wouldn't we know if that had happened to Bary, Jr.? I think he's just a living body with no memories or emotions, somehow permanently soulless. His body will die but his soul will go nowhere, having been absorbed into the evil essence of the Dementor. Anyone have any idea what happened to the soul-sucked victims of the Dementors? Would the Azkaban guards have left them to die? (Maybe that's what happened to some of our missing DEs from VW1?) And where is what remains of Barty, Jr., now? In a St. Mungo's ward for the incurably and criminally insane? Ideas, anyone? Carol, who wonders why Yahoo is so interminably slow today From grannybat at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 21:11:47 2004 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:11:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's Eyesight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91344 Whoops, I missed this one. >>>sawsan_issa wrote: > > I have read that Harry's eyes are weak, and that JKR stresses > > the importance of his glasses. I wonder what is so important about > > ordinary, and probably cheap, muggle glasses. > > ...Why are Harry's eyes so weak? Is it just a normal muggle > > optometry problem? > > Jen: Here's the JKR interview qoute on Harry's glasses: > > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1200- > readersdigest-boquet.htm > > I favor the theory that Harry's weak eyes are connected with > dragons eyes,since they are also most vulnerable in this area. The > Conjunctivitis curse can wound a dragon--could it also wound Harry? > But now he has the Impervious charm on them, thanks to Hermione, so > perhaps as long as he has his glasses he's protected. I doubt it. In Grim Defeat (POA), "We're fifty points up," said Wood, "but unless we get the Snitch soon, we'll be playing into the night." "I've got no chance with these on," said Harry exasperatedly, waving his glasses. At that very moment, Hermione appeared at his shoulder.... "I've had an idea, Harry! Give me your glasses, quick!" He handed them to her, and, as the team watched in amazement, Hermione tapped them with her wand and said, "Impervius!" "There!" she said, handing them back to Harry. "They'll repel water!" So Harry's glasses are protected from raindrops and other liquids, but nothing else. They might safeguard him if an enemy tries to blind him with a splash of acid, but I wouldn't count on it. The caster's intent matters in JKR's spellwork. Hermione intended to improve Harry's visibility, not to confer on him invulnerability. Grannybat From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 21:23:56 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:23:56 -0000 Subject: What happened to Trelawney? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91345 "brwneil" wrote: One would assume then that as soon as Dumbledore was gone and Umbridge was made Headmistrest she would have sent Trelawney packing as one of her first acts, but we hear nothing. Is this sort of an unwritten Flint? Or did both Rowling and Umbridge forget she was still in the tower drinking her sherry? Anatol: I believe Umbridge forgot her over all the trouble Fred and George are paying her. ;) I mean, you can't see very much of her if you doesn't happen to have taken Devination. Or Umbridge had her goal by "making" Dumbledore leave. Only problem I have with my own theory is that Dolores can't ignore some 5th year girls (Lavender was it?) always talking to Trelawney when she (U) banned all clubs etc. Carol: Possibly all Umbridge intended to do with Trelawney was to demonstrate her power and make someone suffer--and she succeeded admirably by firing her and making her *think* she had to leave. Certainly McGonagall would have stepped back in to oppose Umbridge if she had tried to defy DD's stated wishes by depriving Trelawney of her home at Hogwarts, and Umbridge probably realizes that McG is a force to be reckoned with. Also Dumbledore may have placed some sort of protection on Trelawney so she couldn't be removed regardless of whether he was present in Hogwarts or not, just as in CoS he stated that anyone who needed his help would have it. (Sorry I don't have the exact quote at hand.) I think, though, that Umbridge had accomplished her objective by firing Trelawney and was determined to move on to her next victim, Hagrid, but was sidetracked, as Anatol says, by a pair of red-haired twins. Carol From belijako at online.no Fri Feb 20 21:38:24 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:38:24 -0000 Subject: Initials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91346 antoshachekhonte wrote: As for Tonks/Charlie... well, I'll buy personality match. But if we go with the idea that Tonks went straight from Hogwarts to Auror training (three years), followed by a year on active duty, then she's 20 or 21--five or six years older than the Trio and Co. Isn't Charlie in his mid-20s? Or am I screwing up the timeline in my head? And, then, it's always possible that Nymphadora didn't qualify as an Auror right out of school... Berit replies: ...And what is the problem? Didn't get that... :-) If Tonks is somewhere between 20 and 22 years old, and Charlie is in his mid twenties, that's hardly any age difference to speak of, is it? Some readers want to couple Tonks with Lupin. Now that is a much greater age leap. Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 21:40:36 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:40:36 -0000 Subject: what are the chances... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91347 Lisa: Do you think Rowling will have spin-offs, do you think she'll write a whole new series based on an upcoming new first year?" Carol: Actually, I've already answered this question in a previous post, but I doubt that anyone would be surprised by my answer even if I hadn't. Mr. Mysterious himself, Severus Snape, of course. (And Constance Vigilance will say Quirrell, am I right?)" Jim F: My vote: neither. JKR won't write another series; she has a family life that takes her time and makes her happy. She probably had no concept of how overwhelming this was going to be. Carol: For the record, I quite agree that she won't have spin-offs. I was answering the second part of Lisa's question (snipped here) about who I would like her to write about if she did. OTOH, since she's written FB and the book on quidditch (title escapes me), there's some hope that she'll actually write "Hogwarts: A History." If she does, it'll have a built-in market. But again, I was just having fun with the question of who I'd *like* to see her write about if she told the life story of another character (or, in an even more unlikely event, retold the whole series from another perspective). Carol From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 21:44:06 2004 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (JuHu) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:44:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:_The_Good,_The_Bad,_and_The_Ugly_(Was:_Book_6_&7_clich?s) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040220214406.64839.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91348 I agree with most of what's been written, and add a few of my own: The GOOD Rita Skeeter working for the Quibbler (I mean, I could manure my garden with the contents of "Harry Potter's Secret Heartache. . ." *g*) Ah, I might be tempted by the FEATHERBOAS, I'm a sucker at heart for OBHWF Umbridge incarcerated in Hogwarts' darkest, dankest dungeon and forced to write forevermore "I must not be a puffed-up, power-hungry, brown-nosing, narcissistic evil hag" with that wretched quill of hers. And when she needs a break, switch to the left hand: "I must not look like a baboon's backside..." Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, the Dursleys all getting such a fine comeuppance from Harry that it will make me cheer Kreacher's head on the wall of 12 Grimmauld Place (I'm felling really morbid today...) Hermione discovering the "12 uses of Blast-Ended Skrewt blood" and Hagrid becoming rich off his breeding them, providing him with ample free time to perfect his magical abilities Percy getting a huge helping of humble pie The BAD (Sorry H/H shippers) Harry snogging Hermione. I mean, she's like his sister! Fudge getting away with being an idiot (I know he's a politician and they get more leeway, but most people aren't so lucky) Krum, Karkaroff, Grawp, etc. never reappearing Any of the Dursley's turning out to be magical. They *so* do not deserve it. One of the twins dying, leaving Incomplete!Twin with nothing to joke about The UGLY Any of our thousands of questions not being answered! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 21:45:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:45:27 -0000 Subject: Muddy quidditch? (Was: Everyday Magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91349 Arya wrote: why would playing Quidditch make you get muddy? Isn't mud unique to the *ground*? Er--aren't they on *brooms*--which, correct me ifI'm wrong, put you in the AIR!?!?!? Berit replied: Of course the Quidditch itself takes place up in the air, but canon suggests the players now and then fly back to the ground for a little pep-talk with their captain. Also, it's not too hard to imagine that one or two players during the course of training might fall off their brooms as they are attempting a particular difficult move... it happens :-) Thirdly, the Quidditch players always get off their brooms on the Quidditch pitch and *walk* back to the castle, they don't fly back. So it's just not possible to *play* Quidditch without getting in contact with the ground one way or the other :-) Carol: Good responses, Berit. Also, the quaffle or more likely, the bludgers, could hit the muddy ground and then hit the players, who would be muddied by the ball even if they didn't fall off their brooms. Carol, who is picturing them wiping their muddy hands on their robes as the ball is passed to someone else From siskiou at msn.com Fri Feb 20 21:59:58 2004 From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:59:58 -0800 Subject: Quidditch/ jealousy was,Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Quidditch Team In-Reply-To: References: <16010090745.20040219203058@msn.com> Message-ID: <90180891.20040220135958@msn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91350 Hi, Friday, February 20, 2004, 9:15:10 AM, dk59us wrote: > And I also guess that as we get closer and closer to > the last page of Book 7, the stakes are going to be considerably > higher than they were in Book 4 and small errors in judgement may > have > greater fallout. Yes, most likely. But why does Ron have to be the one who is seen as the most likely catalyst (it comes up so often, it seems he's the only one considered to be prone to this)? Harry has already made several mistakes of this kind, and might make more, and so has Hermione. I guess it just irks me that, whenever this topic comes up, Ron is the automatic pick ;) As if he were ready to throw in his lot with LV, for a sack full of galleons and some fame. Eve when he *was* angry with Harry, he didn't show any signs of trying to sabotage him. Yes, mistakes can and have happened in the HP series, and various characters have made them. More will probably happen, but I'll bet if Ron makes one, it's going to be taken a lot more seriously than one made by Hermione or Harry, Neville, Dumbledore... > What Harry would see--now there's an interesting > question: now that he's seen a bit more of his parents in the > Pensieve, and since that wasn't all to his liking, would he still > see > his parents and family? The possibilities are endless for what Harry might see, depending on his mood. He may even occasionally feel he'd like to be back in his closet, never having learned anything about the WW and the heavy expectations and responsibilities that came with it. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at msn.com Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From belijako at online.no Fri Feb 20 22:16:19 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:16:19 -0000 Subject: Harry's Eyesight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91351 sawsan_issa wrote: I have read that Harry's eyes are weak, and that JKR stresses the importance of his glasses. Berit replies: I'm sure we'll get to know what Rowling means when she says Harry's eyes are weak and that he needs his glasses. Doesn't sound like the regular problem of nearsightedness (though he is that too). What I noticed in OoP, is that most of the time (though not always) Harry *doesn't* have his glasses on when he shares the MoM corridor dreams with Voldemort. A lot of these dreams occur when Harry is sleeping. Naturally he takes his glasses off before going to bed... Just a quote from the incident when he saw Mr. Weasley being attacked by a serpent: "Harry was so relieved she [McGonagall] was taking him seriously that he did not hesitate, but jumped out of bed at once, pulled on his dressing gown and pushed the glasses back on to his nose." (OoP p. 412 UK Ed). Also, even more interestingly, Harry either did not wear his glasses when Voldemort possessed him, or lost them during the course of the possession in the MoM scene! Quote: " And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creature's coils loosened, the pain was gone; Harry was lying face down on the floor, *his glasses gone*, shivering as though he lay upon ice, not wood... Harry opened his eyes, saw his glasses lying by the heel of the headless statue that had been guarding him... He put them on and raised his head a little to find Dumbledore's crooked nose inches from his own." (OoP p. 720 UK Ed). I don't know if the glasses give him/his eyes some sort of protection, but it is interesting that Harry losing his glasses is one of the details Rowling chose to add to this scene... There is one important "dream-scene" though where it looks like Harry did have his glasses on, and that's when he has the Voldemort-induced dream of Sirius being tortured in the MoM. The only mentioning of Harry's eyes is that they were stinging and watering as he worked on his exam paper. It would be natural to assume that he wore his glasses when he was doing the exam. There is no mentioning of him taking them off. Sooo, I guess this means Voldemort could still get at Harry when he had his glasses on... Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Feb 20 22:29:05 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:29:05 -0000 Subject: HOW many classmates? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91352 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dorapye" wrote: > Ok, re-reading Chapter 12 OotP and noticed something that I had not > registered fully before,when Harry confronts Umbridge during the > DADA lesson (p221 Uk ed): > > " 'It was murder,' said Harry. He could feel himself shaking. He > had hardly spoken to anyone about this, least of all THIRTY eagerly > listening classmates. I just went back and reviewed that potion of the chapter as well. The wording that discribes that class makes it sound like more than just the 8--10 Gryffindors as well. Although only Gryffindors are named. It would make sense with Umbridge's teaching style, that each of her classes is made up of all of that year's students. Telling 30--40 students to sit down and read only requires crowd control, not teaching ability. And would explain how she has so much time to nose around in other teachers' classes. Lupin's teaching style would be better suited to small classes. JKR doesn't mention anyone from the other houses in this class which is odd. It does seem to me, that JKR often just ignores those things that we don't really need for the story. For example, who was the girl Gryffindor prefect Harry's first 4 years? Potioncat From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Fri Feb 20 22:35:51 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:35:51 +1300 Subject: Potters - A question Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040221112915.0342f800@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 91353 In the book, Sirius says that he persuaded James and Lily to change secret keepers at the last minute and according to the lexicon, the charm was cast only several days before the attack. Now, what I am trying to figure out. Was Sirius ever the secret keeper under that spell? Dumbledore didn't know about the switch that I can make out, so it must of been done just between James, Lily, Sirius and Peter. However, this is my question. At that time, Harry would of been 13-15 months old. The prophecy was overheard before his birth. Surely it didn't take LV over a year to figure out who to target. If James and Lily were not protected by that spell in the year or so leading up to the charm being cast with Peter as secret keeper, how did they remain safe for so long? Tanya From christophernuttall at hotmail.com Sat Feb 21 01:31:26 2004 From: christophernuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 01:31:26 -0000 Subject: The tragedy of Ron Weasley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91354 Ron Weasley is one of the most tragic figures in the Potterverse. He's very much inferior to almost anyone else in most categories and is perhaps unable or unwilling to change. Ron is heading towards a massive crisis, even perhaps being tricked into betraying Harry, and, as such, is also one of the most misunderstood characters in the world of HP. First, a look at Ron's family. To quote Ron himself: "I'm the sixth in our family to go to Hogwarts. You could say I've got a lot to live up to. Bill and Charlie have already left -- Bill was head boy and Charlie was captain of Quidditch. Now Percy's a prefect. Fred and George mess around a lot, but they still get really good marks and everyone thinks they're really funny. Everyone expects me to do as well as the others, but if I do, it's no big deal, because they did it first. You never get anything new, either, with five brothers. I've got Bill's old robes, Charlie's old wand, and Percy's old rat." -- Ron Weasley (SS6) He is in fact one of the odd ones out. The first two children did very well; while Percy is clearly his mother's favourite son, and Fred and George have a relationship between themselves that probably won't admit Ron. Ron has to live up to the other children's reputation, while lacking most of the support that they had. Ron is clearly aware that he's at the bottom of the family pile - Ginny, being a girl, would have had new things simply because of her body being different. If Ron did not have an inferiority complex, I would be very suppressed. Matters are worse, not better, with his friends. Ron is clearly the least capable magician and the worst student. Ron main skill, processing a lifetime of knowledge that the orphaned Harry and Muggle-born Hermione, is slipping. Further, Harry and Hermione have formed a double within a trio, witness their actions in OOP, leaving Ron out in the cold. This is not intentional, but children and teenagers rarely stop to consider that harm is sometimes accidental - for Ron not to feel any resentment, he would have to be a saint. Ron is clearly very poor, a stark contrast to Harry and Malfoy's wealth, which clearly grates on him. Having little money and no real prospect of obtaining any - unlike almost all of his siblings - Ron has another cause for resentment. It gets worse. Harry is an excellent sportsman on a broomstick, again outshining Ron. Ron does get his chance in OOP, BUT, instead of watching from the sidelines, as Ron did in books 1-3, Harry and Hermione abandon the clearly nervous Ron - with good, but not excellent skills - and head off on their own mission. Again, I would be very surprised if Ron is not bitter. Ron does get some kudos in OOP, becoming a prefect. However, even this proud achievement is tainted: first Hermione congratulates the wrong person (assuming its for Harry), it's a honour shared by Malfoy and finally, Ron's brothers don't respect his authority. They mock him relentlessly, turning his victory to ashes in his mouth. As prefect, Ron commands no authority from the ones who matter most. Finally, Ron is clearly romantically interested in Hermione, but she appears not to return that interest. In GOF, she dates Krum - who sees Harry as a potential rival - and in the COS movie, hugs Harry and refuses to hug Ron. Ron must be very jealous of them, even though Harry and Hermione are not lovers, Ron may well suspect them to be. Ron's comments at the end of OOP about Ginny dating someone better, said with a sharp glance at Harry, could be interpreted as an attempt to set his rival up with someone else. How is this bad? Ron may be jealous enough of Harry (who has everything Ron wants without having to work for it (ok, there's a mad dark lord since book 4) that he may break up with Harry for good. As far as we know, Ron has no other friendships apart from Harry and Hermione, so a break-up would leave him alone, and we might expect Ginny to side with Harry or just ignore Ron's problems. A loner, Ron might well be seduced by Voldemort and betray Harry. Voldemort could offer Ron whatever he wants - there's no law for dark lords that say they have to follow though. Ron's case bears some limited comparison with Peter's. Peter was clearly, like Ron, the weakest of his set. Peter had hidden skills (like Ron's flying) and a cunning mind (Ron plays chess). We can guess that Peter was the last to find out that Remus was a werewolf - did James and co think he would be scared - and James affected a concern for him that would have been humiliating. Sirius's charge about Peter simply wanting the most powerful protector may be seriously mistaken - Peter is clearly able to take care of himself, not to mention Dumbledore being the most powerful wizard around. Ron is far more important in his circle than Peter was in his, yet there are uncomfortable similarities. To conclude: Harry is rich - Ron is poor. Harry is a hero - Ron is a supporting character at best. Harry has the girls (in Ron's eyes) - Ron is too shy to ask a girl out. Harry has no family to look down on him - Ron's family are a weight around his neck. Look at this and ask yourself; would you not be bitter too? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Feb 21 03:06:37 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 03:06:37 -0000 Subject: FILK: At The Burrow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91355 Six down, five to go on my latest musical At The Burrow To the tune of At the Ballet, from A Chorus Line Dedicated to Pixieberry MIDI at: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/8849/Moviemusicals/Resu me/songs WORMTAIL sings about the only time in life when he felt true love and happiness WORMTAIL: Minnie always said, "He's a very poor wizard, Not in their league, not in their league" When I enrolled she informed my mother I would probably not graduate And that's Peter Pettigrew, That's Peter Pettigrew, Me, Peter Pettigrew -- She pitied me. School at Hogwarts wasn't much for my ego I was so stumbling and shy My so-called friends, they were so patronizing My fellow Animagi I heard their constant slurs Cause I was just one who never knew success Not one was warm, well, not to me ...dumb and useless But ev'rything was beautiful at the Burrow Redhead boys kept rodent pets well fed. Yes, ev'rything was beautiful at the Burrow, Hey! I was happy at the Burrow. (spoken) I loved my Burrow life . (music) Snoozing in a patch of golden sunlight Free to sleep or perhaps to roam Each and ev'ry day and ev'ry fun night I was a parasite, I was a parasite, I was a parasite in Weasleys' home. Lily always struck me as very attractive Once I grew up, once I grew up "Peter," she said, "I've a special someone, And I'll marry: marry your good pal James" I knew she should not be mine I knew she would not be mine I knew she could not be mine I hated them. OK, they were "nice," but I was sworn for vengeance. Payback is what it's about. There was nothing to be gained by resistance So I sold everyone out. So "valorous" was something I'd never be But it was clear, if Voldy won, I'd be homefree! VOLDEMORT & WORMTAIL Then ev'rything went horrible at the Hollow WORMTAIL Voldemort, you sang your song of swan. VOLDEMORT Yes, ev'rything went horrible at the Hollow Yikes! WORMTAIL What a pity! At the Hollow VOLDEMORT & WORMTAIL In a quaint and rather cozy cottage An AK in a child's room Lily laid a trap that had some wattage VOLDEMORT She was a paragon WORMTAIL She was a paragon VOLDEMORT & WORMTAIL I/He slew that paragon, then we were doomed WORMTAIL (spoken) I didn't know where to turn to now, really! I mean, my being Secret- Keeper was supposed to secure the Dark Lord's triumph. But when I arrived at Godric's Hollow in the immediate aftermath, I said, "Well, I thought this was going to help, but I guess it's not." Anyway, I did have a fantastic escape plan. I confronted Sirius in a street full of Muggles, and I said to him, "Sirius, how could you?" Then, before he could do a thing, I sliced off one of my fingers, and KERBLOOEY!!." And as I fled in rodent form, I thought, "Sirius, you are truly screwed." (CHORUS OF DEATH EATERS provide Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doos in the background) WORMTAIL(music) Later that year in Diagon When I was hiding in the Menagerie and when That's when they came That's when they came I jumped for joy inside my rodent cage They seemed warm, `least to me It was the Weasley clan, and Art said, "Percy, would you like this rat?" And he said, "Daddy, I would love it.!" (The lights dim, except for a single spotlight on WORMTAIL, which transforms itself into that patch of golden sunlight in which Scabbers used to luxuriate) WORMTAIL & CHORUS Ev'rything was beautiful at the Burrow Howling ghouls and ample love to share Yes, ev'rything was beautiful at the Burrow At the Burrow... At the Burrow... WORMTAIL Yes ev'rything was beautiful at the Burrow Hey! I was furry I was fuzzy I was fattened At the Burrow! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 21 04:16:12 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 04:16:12 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_book__six_and_seven_clich=E9s?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionekitten9" wrote: > I saw this question on another web site, so I don't take any credit > for it; I just thought that it was really interesting. > > In the next upcoming books, what would be the most horrible, mind > numbing, clich?s that JKR could write? What would bring you to > your knees, while you yell from pure joy? Things like Vampire Snape, > sicky-sweet Draco, Harry getting some advise from Sirus via a > painting or a Spellotaped mirror, Harry/ Hermione, Ron/ Luna, > Neville goin' Matrix on Bellatrix, or Voldy. > > Harry Potter Fans have been reading and then rereading these books, > while dissecting every word. We have come up some interesting > theories that have been discussed as much as the books. We all have > are favorites, and we all have are pet peeves. So... what's yours? > > Mine are... > > THE GOOD > > An Interesting, complex, "Good Slytherin" I'm rooting for Blaise > Zabini, who will once and for all be confirmed to be a boy. > > Dumbledore dying, not because I want him dead, I just think it would > be interesting to read how Harry and the Order will go on without > him. > > Snape continuing to give Harry Occlumency lessons. Come on... tell > me you didn't grin every time it was time for Occulmency lesson for > Harry in the fifth book. > > Percy was actually a spy for the Order in the MoM; and that his > whole "I'm-turning-my-back-on-my-family" thing was a front. > > Harry ending up with a minor character like Susan Bones, Just NOT > Hermione, Ginny, or Luna. > > Any other house besides Gryffindor winning the House Cup, they can't > possibly win all the time. > > I also want little Mark to come to Hogwarts, just not end up as > Harry's cousin ten times removed. > > THE BAD... > > Will be very unhappy if Snape ends up being a traitor and a double- > agent guy, or a vampire. > > Redeemed!Draco I don't care if Draco winds up fighting for the good > side, but I don't want him turning all squishy and sweet. > > Dead!Harry or Martyr!Harry, or a permanently tortured soul Harry. > > Anybody but Harry defeating Voldemort... finding out that what is in > the locked room is "love" then harry using it to put Voldy in a fate > worse then death. > > I can't stand OBHWF, if this happens I'll start to spontaneously > jabbing my eyes out with a spoon. Or if all of the DOM-six getting > paired up with one another in a wonderful love...thing. > > I would be devastated if the books are less than 800 pages. > > Nothing JKR could write will make stop reading the books, but there > are lots of things that would make me roll my eyes, Or will make me > jump for joy. > kitten I'll play. :o) THE GOOD CLICHES : The good Slytherin - yes, please, please. I am all for that and it is long time overdue. I actually think it is going to be that Slyhterin boy, who saw the thestrals, probably Blaise indeed. BUT going right to BAD: Please, please let it not be Draco. Please. He is one of the couple characters in the books whom I passionately hate. I hold some hopes for his redemption, even though I saw him as nasty little racist since book 2, but I did not want to give up that early. Sorry, after book 5 every hope for Draco's credible redemption is lost for me and if JKR decides to redeem him it would seem rushed in my eyes. GOOD: He! Snape as a vampire- why not? I think that this theory has much more canon support than many others I happened to read. I am not passionate enough about it, but I would like to see it. Please, please let Harry live. :o) I don't care how she will do it, just do it. :o) BAD: Of course I don't want the boy who live to die. ;o) I'll post later if I think of something else. Alla From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat Feb 21 04:22:58 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:22:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: book =?ISO-8859-1?B?oHNpeCBhbmQgc2V2ZW4gY2xpY2jpcw==?= Message-ID: <128E0B2B.07EECD39.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91357 Good: -- Harry asking some questions for once! -- Lucius getting out of Azkaban (what's the good of evil followers if they're incapcitated?) -- Unbridge being turned into a werewolf. -- Remus killing Peter. Ooh...how I want him to! -- Evil!Gryffindor. -- Ron and Harry realizing Severus is a good guy. Bad: -- Severus dying. -- Vampire!Severus -- SHIPs ... I know some people love them, but the only people I wanna some of the characters with is *me*! *g* -- SuperWizard!Neville...I love Neville, but I don't want him to get a wand and suddenly be a god. -- Sirius being back in any shape, way, or form. I miss him, but he's gone now. Oryomai From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 21 05:10:00 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 05:10:00 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_book_=A0six_and_seven_clich=E9s?= In-Reply-To: <128E0B2B.07EECD39.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91358 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > Bad: > -- SHIPs ... I know some people love them, but the only people I wanna some of the characters with is *me*! *g* I am not a big SHIPer myself. I want the TRIO alive and that is good for me. Actually, I adore Sirius?Severus ship. ;o) > -- Sirius being back in any shape, way, or form. I miss him, but he's gone now. > > Oryomai Nooooo :) No Avada was fired! Ever ;) I stand firm in my dellusionness (is this even a word :)) Alla From amani at charter.net Sat Feb 21 05:10:10 2004 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:10:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Initials References: Message-ID: <016701c3f838$fba5a5e0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91359 Hickengruendler wrote: OBHWF means 'One Big Happy Weasley Family'. It means that every Weasley is shipped with someone and that they all live happily ever after. OBHWF always includes Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione and mostly Percy/Penelope, Fred/Angelina, George/Alicia or Katie, Bill/Fleur and Charlie/someone not yet introduced. And of course Arthur/Molly. Berit replies: Age-wise, and even personality-wise I believe Tonks might turn out to be a very nice match for Charlie... don't you think? :-) Taryn: Tonks is so the salve for Lupin's wounded soul. ;) ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 21 05:12:36 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 05:12:36 -0000 Subject: The tragedy of Ron Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91360 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Hermione goes out with Krum because he asked her first. The fact that she doesn't hug Ron like she hugs Harry in the movie CoS is meant to indicate the beginnings of unresolved sexual tension (JKR has said as much in interviews). Harry is just as awkward and clueless around girls as Ron is, except that even he knows that Hermione and Ron are sort of meant for each other. Ron wants his best friend to date his sister because that solidifies both bonds. I was afraid from Ron's comments in GoF that he could be tempted by riches, but then in OoP he has the example of Percy, and he is properly horrified. Ron is a pretty good prefect, actually. As we know, only Molly can sort of control the twins. Hermione only stops them by threatening to write to their mother; no real guy would rat out his brothers to their mother. Ron's not bitter. He's a teenager. Give him a break... --JDR From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 21 06:07:24 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 06:07:24 -0000 Subject: The tragedy of Ron Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91361 Chris Wrote> > Ron Weasley is one of the most tragic figures in the Potterverse. He's very much inferior to almost anyone else in most categories and is perhaps unable or unwilling to change. Snip The first two children did very well; while Percy is clearly his mother's favourite son, and Fred and George have a relationship between themselves that probably won't admit Ron. Ron has to live up to the other children's reputation, while lacking most of the support that they had. Ron is clearly aware that he's at the bottom of the family pile - Ginny, being a girl, would have had new things simply because of her body being different. If Ron did not have an inferiority complex, I would be very suppressed. Sue Here: Wow! this is a totally different interpretation on the Weasley family than I have ever seen. Where do you find an indication in canon that Molly favors Percy? He doesn't have new things either and it always seems that if she does go to his defense, it is because he is the constant butt of the rest of the family's jokes. As far as Ginny is concerned all you need to do is go to CoS and read the chapter where Riddle explains what she wrote in the diary to know that everything she had was purchased second hand, just like everyone else. Chris: Matters are worse, not better, with his friends. Ron is clearly the least capable magician and the worst student. Sue again: Where is the canon that Ron is less capable? Certainly Hermione does better in class, but we have plenty of evidence that she is the top in their year. We will see how they score in OWLs but as for me I expect him to do as well as Harry and definitely better than the twins. > > Chris: > Ron is clearly very poor, a stark contrast to Harry and Malfoy's wealth, which clearly grates on him. Having little money and no real prospect of obtaining any - unlike almost all of his siblings - Ron has another cause for resentment. Sue: Why does Ron have less of a prospect of earning money than his siblings? Charlie is apparently doing very well and he had to take his apparation test twice! We do not know yet where his true strengths will lie, but he is only 15! > Chris: > It gets worse. Harry is an excellent sportsman on a broomstick, again outshining Ron. Ron does get his chance in OOP, BUT, instead of watching from the sidelines, as Ron did in books 1-3, Harry and Hermione abandon the clearly nervous Ron - with good, but not excellent skills - and head off on their own mission. Again, I would be very surprised if Ron is not bitter. > Sue: I completely do not see your point here. Ron won the Quidditch Cup *on his own*. No Harry, No Hermione, no George, no Fred. Standing alone, just like his hearts desire in the Mirror of Erised. As far as his friends not seeing him do it, he seemed to get over that very fast indeed. Winning was *way* more important. > snip> > Chris: > To conclude: Harry is rich - Ron is poor. Harry is a hero - Ron is a supporting character at best. Harry has the girls (in Ron's eyes) - Ron is too shy to ask a girl out. Harry has no family to look down on him - Ron's family are a weight around his neck. Look at this and ask yourself; would you not be bitter too? > > Sue: The only family Harry has forced him to live in a closet and almost starved him. Every time he goes "home" it is to be confined, mocked and attacked, hardly a loving group. I do not see the Weasleys as a weight for Ron, only a support. Even the twins wouldn't tease him when things were going poorly on the Quidditch team and the rest of his family seem to support Ron a great deal (even Percy, in his own pompous way). It is possible that Ron will make a mistake which could endanger Harry, but I think it is a lot more likely that he will add hero to the Prefect, Quidditch Captain and Headboy(?) titles. Sue From tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com Sat Feb 21 06:18:59 2004 From: tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 01:18:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Potters' grave (was: Re: Regulus Black) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91362 > MaggieB: Which begs the question, why hasn't Harry asked where his > parents are buried? Considering that Harry is young and do not remember his parents [being alive], I don't find it at all surprising that Harry has not asked where his parents are buried (assume that wizards do get buried). As Harry gets older, it becomes more and more of a possibility of him asking about his parents' graves, and to be sure, I do expect it to happen within the next 2 books. However, I am not at all surprised that it has not happened yet. Death is a final stage, especially the younger you are, so it isn't reasonable to think that Harry would think of his parents' grave, and I know that I certainly never asked such things when I was younger. ~Ali From ilexrdh at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 18:10:55 2004 From: ilexrdh at yahoo.com (ilexrdh) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:10:55 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91363 Hi,I'm new to the site, so as I'm at lunch & don't have time to search the archives to see if this has come up before, I'll just go ahead & ask... In book 4, when Harry & Cedric are portkeyed to the cemetery & Voldemort gets his body back & starts telling his story to the Death Eaters to give them a major guilt trip, he has his wand back. If he became almost a ghost-like creature when his spell to kill Harry backfired on him & by his own admission "couldn't use a wand to perform the spells that would have helped him" (that's not a direct quote, but you'll remember that bit of the story).......HOW DID HE GET HIS WAND BACK????????? Did Pettigrew go to the Potter's house, but missed seeing the "spirit" of Voldemort, but found his wand & kept it all those years???? Was that the wand he had behind his back when he was confronted by Sirius Black on the street where he killed all of those Muggles & got away by transfiguring???? I'd love to know, as this is the only really serious problematic thing that bugs me about the Potter books. Thanks in advance for any answers of theories you might have. "ilexrdh" From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 22:03:35 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:03:35 -0000 Subject: Initials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91364 "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > Berit replies: > > ...And what is the problem? Didn't get that... :-) If Tonks is > somewhere between 20 and 22 years old, and Charlie is in his mid > twenties, that's hardly any age difference to speak of, is it? Some > readers want to couple Tonks with Lupin. Now that is a much greater > age leap. Of course you're right. Even if Charlie is in his late twenties--which, now that I think about it, he might be. I guess I was just reacting to the idea that age was something they specifically had going for them. I, like many others, I'm sure, am waiting for the metamorphmagus thing to be sprung on us by surprise in the next book or two. Have Tonks masquerading as something/someone else, then suddenly revealing herself. Of course, it could also be that one of the characters we've already met is a metamorphmagus who is masquerading as Tonks.... AC From dh.shrijnana at verizon.net Fri Feb 20 22:39:37 2004 From: dh.shrijnana at verizon.net (shrijnana) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:39:37 -0000 Subject: Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91365 > John wrote: > Why are Dementors not even mentioned by Newt Scamander > in "Fanstastic Beasts and where to find them"? Does that strike > anyone else as odd? They are not even mentioned in the beginning of > the book when he classifies the terms beings and beasts. What's up > with that? > Shrijnana here: Dementors aren't mentioned in FB by the name 'dementor', but the description of the Lethifold sounds remarkably like them. "It resembles a black clock.... which glides along the ground" pg. 25 US hardcover edition and on pg 27 "the Patronus is the only spell known to repel the lethifold". It also says that it suffocates the victims, then digests them, leaving nothing behind. YUK! Maybe demontors are part lethifold... but then who'd want to breed with them???? - Shrijnana, who is very glad she is on vacation and catch up with all the posts! From oogems7 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 21 05:50:25 2004 From: oogems7 at yahoo.com (oogems7) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 05:50:25 -0000 Subject: The tragedy of Ron Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91366 "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > In GOF, she dates Krum - who sees Harry as a potential rival - and > in the COS movie, hugs Harry and refuses to hug Ron. Ron must be > very jealous of them, even though Harry and Hermione are not lovers, > Ron may well suspect them to be. Ron's comments at the end of OOP > about Ginny dating someone better, said with a sharp glance at > Harry, could be interpreted as an attempt to set his rival up with > someone else. > Harry has the girls (in Ron's eyes) - Ron is too shy to ask a girl > out... Harry has no family to look down on him - Ron's family are > a weight around his neck... > Look at this and ask yourself; would you not be bitter too?>>> Oogems says: You know you should read post 39362, it goes into great length, and detail about how Lupin is a DE, it nearly convinced me. You have done something similar here, taken a seed and grown a forest, so to speak. We have seen no canon evidence that he is that weak of a wizard (compared to the average of his class) nor have we seen anything to suggest that intelligence has an effect on a wizard's or witch's (cough Hermione cough) level of power. We might (probably) see another fit of rage in him, but I doubt that it will be on the level you suggest. It is rather normal teenage behavior. There is also the fact that JKR will most likely not repeat, for a third(?) time, another traitor plot line; she uses things only twice, at most. Oogems On a side note, I'm all for Hermione getting a wake up call. After OotP that girl is going to have a level of arrogance (or belief in her own smarts, and being right all the time) that would put Draco to shame. I've learned my lessons in life, I greatly respect strong women; she however, is over the line. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 21 11:11:46 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:11:46 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: <000601c3f7c7$b71c8cc0$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91367 Iggy : > I agree with the GOOD: > Complex/Good!Slytherin (and I agree that it should be Blaise.) Carol: How come no one except me wants it to be Theo Nott (weedy and stringy like a young Snape)--the poor kid's father is a wimpy excuse for a death Eater, but Theo is not a close friend of Draco and his thugs. I think it would be a real breakthrough if this quiet Slytherin boy who can see the Thestrals somehow communicates with Harry. What have we seen of Blaise Zabini other than his being made a Slytherin by the Sorting Hat? But JKR has specifically mentioned Theodore Nott in OoP--*and* his father (who was in the graveyard in GoF and the DoM in OoP, making a singularly unimpressive, almost pitiable, showing in both cases. This man, like a much older Regulus Black, is in too deep and can't get out. So I hope the complex/good Slytherin is Theo, who somehow finds a way to rescue poor old dad. Carol, who wonders if people like Blaise Zabini for his name From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Sat Feb 21 04:18:15 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 04:18:15 -0000 Subject: The tragedy of Ron Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91368 Chris wrote: > Ron Weasley is one of the most tragic figures in the Potterverse. He's very much inferior to almost anyone else in most categories and is perhaps unable or unwilling to change. Ron is heading towards a massive crisis, even perhaps being tricked into betraying Harry, and, as such, is also one of the most misunderstood characters in the world of HP. > To conclude: Harry is rich - Ron is poor. Harry is a hero - Ron is a supporting character at best. Harry has the girls (in Ron's eyes) - Ron is too shy to ask a girl out. Harry has no family to look down on him - Ron's family are a weight around his neck. > > Look at this and ask yourself; would you not be bitter too? >>> Hey Chris, Ronald Weasley is one of the most understanding and special figures in the Potter verse. Ron is open to change, and should be considered an equal to Harry in all respects (except the idea that Harry and Harry alone has THE power to defeat the dark lord, meaning the power inside of Harry that makes him invulnerable to possession). Ron is one of the most grounded and is so loyal to Harry that he could not even imagine betraying Harry. Ron has common sense you know (how could someone possibly trick you into betraying your best friend? and causing them harm?). Many may misunderstand Ron, but I feel I can offer a view of Ron that closely relates to how JKR intended Ron to be read. I am currently attending a college, where I am the 8th person in my immediate family to attend. I too was given hand me down things throughout my life, and in a capitalist society it is not easy. Plus now that I am in college I have to think about what to do with my life, and it's kind of hard when my family has already done everything to do. There are currently a PHD, a MD, 2 CPA's, 2 law degrees, and a teacher/nurse in my family. What is left for me to do? Plus they were all good at sports, but when one knows a big family, one can tell that the talent is spread around, everyone is equal. 7th out of 8 is no cakewalk either. But it does not mean I am tragic. I may not have all the advantages, but I do have one that most kids do not, and that is a big family. If you mess with one of us you mess with all of us. Can you imagine a Weasley Family united fighting in unison? The result could change the tide of any war. The quote you have of Ron is a very telling one. From how I read it Ron is humble, he does not expect much of himself, and neither do I, but do you know how that is an advantage? We have nothing to lose and everything to prove. I try my hardest to outdo my brothers and sisters, and I am sure Ron does too. He is the youngest boy and I am sure the toughest. The older brothers would have picked on him all his life. My little brother is just like that. Getting older things may be embarrassing, but it is not that bad. At least if you can't afford it, you have it already. It's better than not having it. An old rat is better than nothing. I have numerous old tee shirts that have just come back in style; they too are better than nothing. Being an old one out in a family is better then being alone. I am not really close with anyone but I still love my family, and are closer with them then any of my friends. Family means something. Ron has the one thing wants most of all: a family. The mirror of Erised showed this. And who says the other children had support? Gred and Forge were certainly not supported in their roles. I am sure Mr. and Mrs. Weasley have given support to each of their children equally, like all good parents. Ron knows he is at the bottom but he wants to be at the top. He can do it and he will. Why do you think Ron has low self-esteem? His two closest brothers are screw-ups and he has already surpassed them by being a prefect. I think he has already surpassed Percy in character because he is more loyal. Ron has more common sense and friends then Percy ever did. We do not know much about Charlie and Bill save their jobs and personalities. Charlie was a great chaser, but Ron is a great keeper. Bill is cool and so is Ron. Why should Ron feel inferior? How is Ron the worst student? We do not even know how many OWLs he got, and I am sure he got more the Fred and George. Also you should remember that Ron had a hand me down wand, which could explain his poor magicianship, although I think he is just as good as Harry in classes (DADA excluded). And you are right about Ron's skill are bringing Wizard born information to the trio, but I sincerely doubt it is his best skill. Ron is great at chess, and those of us who are Muggles know that those who are good at chess are often very intelligent, and very strategy orientated (could Ron's future role being a strategist in the war?). In OotP I feel Ron excluded himself. Remember when you were 15 and had a crush on a girl? What did you do? Did you hide you feelings and try not to make it obvious? I did. This helps to explain your thought of the double in the trio. I however think Ron did not keep him out that much of the time. If is avoiding Hormone intentionally, shouldn't Hermione be the one who feels upset not Ron? Ron is poor. There are no two ways around it. But Harry is not rich. If you remember in PoA Harry does not buy the firebolt because he fears running out of money. Even if it were a very expensive broom, Harry would be able to buy it if he is as rich as Draco is. Ron may not have money now, but what will he have in the future? No one knows, he could turn out to be the Bill Gates equivalent of the magic world. He cannot earn money now, but he can in the future. Right now if he feels resentment about being poor, wouldn't Fred and George give him some money if their business is doing well? Ron won the cup almost single-handedly. He was carried off the field on the shoulders of his peers. That maybe this would be a good patronus memory? And what are you referring to as H and H abandoning Ron on their own mission? I would like to know please. Also it is important to note that whenever Harry had to learn a spell for the TWT Ron was with him. This would mean he would learn the spell too. I do not think Harry has much of an advantage on Ron on in that aspect either. Ron's brothers are gone from Hogwarts and that makes him top dog. I don't know if you have any older brothers, but I would never ever ever ever try and stop them from doing something they wanted to do even if I had authority on them. Authority does not mean squat when you are cornered in your bedroom and they are coming at you. Big whoop Hermione congratulated the wrong person. What about the rest of the year when Ron has the power and not Harry? Also there is the fact that Ron was chosen as prefect. Ron was chosen because Harry had too much on his plate, but Ron was chosen. How many boys are in Griffyndor in Harry and Ron's year? A lot. Ron is chosen because DD didn't want Harry to do it. This means in DD's eyes Ron's maybe second best, but second best in the eyes of the most powerful wizard in the world? That is not bad. Ron is chosen because DD thinks he is just as capable at being a prefect as Harry would have been. Ron is his replacement in DD's eyes. Wouldn't that fill you with confidence? Hermione appears not to return Ron's interest? What about in GoF when Hermione tells Ron to ask her first for the Yule ball? She would have rather gone with Ron than with Krum. She dates Krum? Where is that mentioned? They hang out in the library. A library I might add that is closely monitored by its librarian for talking too loud. How can this be misconstrued as dating? True, Hermione is who Krum likes best, but I think it is clear that while she may write Krum she talks to Ron a lot more then she does to Krum. You think Ron wants Ginny to date Harry as an attempt to stop a Harry and Hermione romance? I think you are wrong. Ron trusts his friends with all his heart. Plus he is with them almost all the time, he knows there is nothing going on between them. It can be interpreted as that, but I think Ron is bad at romance just like every other 15 yr old boy. He needs to work out his feelings before he can tell Hermione about them. Imagine a friend whom you have been friends with for 3 years suddenly becomes your romantic interest, how would you feel? Also I think your argument for how Voldemort can tempt Ron is flawed. Would Harry's death eliminate a competitor for Hermione's heart or be a loss of the best friend Ron has ever had? Do you think that Ron would want Harry dead? Think of how much they have been through together. All of Harry's accomplishments have been aided in some way by Ron. And have been through too much to not trust each other and to be jealous of each other. Finally to how you see Ron as a possible Peter like character, I am upset. Peter is inept while Ron is at the very least capable, Peter is weak mentally while Ron is intelligent, Peter is not loyal while Ron is extremely loyal (think of all the times he stuck by Harry when everyone else in the castle hated him), Peter is afraid while Ron is brave enough in his first year to help Harry save the stone, Peter is a servant, why Ron is a friend. How is Ron weaker than Hermione? Hermione herself says she is all book smarts and cleverness and that there are more important things that make a wizard. Ron may not be able to get the spells on his first try but he can get them right when they count (like the troll incident). Ron is a hero every time Harry is because he helps Harry do things Harry cannot do. I didn't think I liked Ron this much, but this post about how he could be a traitor really made me realize how much I like him. John, who is sorry that his post may seem angry, he is really not, he just does not want people to think of Ron as a Peter type character. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 21 11:17:11 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:17:11 -0000 Subject: Initials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91369 Sylvia wrote: know I'm going to kick myself for asking this, but what does OBHWF mean? Hickengruendler responded" OBHWF means 'One Big Happy Weasley Family'. It means that every Weasley is shipped with someone and that they all live happily ever after. OBHWF always includes Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione and mostly Percy/Penelope, Fred/Angelina, George/Alicia or Katie, Bill/Fleur and Charlie/someone not yet introduced. And of course Arthur/Molly. Carol: Thanks to both of you for asking and answering that. But I think Fred and Geroge should marry the Patil twins. And how about Charlie and Tonks, the one witch we've met who's close to his age? Carol, who wonders why she's awake at 4:11 a.m. From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 21 11:17:31 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:17:31 -0000 Subject: Initials Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91370 Many thanks, Hickengruendler, for explaining the mystic symbols OBHWF. I'm not really into shipping, so hadn't encountered this one before. Now I know what it means, I agree totally with whoever it was said it would be wrist-slashing time if the series ends this way. Sylvia (who can now concentrate on some other mind-blowing problem) From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Sat Feb 21 12:00:34 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:00:34 -0000 Subject: Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91371 > John wrote: > Why are Dementors not even mentioned by Newt Scamander > in "Fanstastic Beasts and where to find them"? > > > Jo wrote: > Perhaps because they are not beasts but people, or more strictly > speaking, the undead, bodies separated from souls. > > > Carol: > I agree that they're beings, not beast, which is why they're not in > FB > > It's possible that a Dementor's victim turns into a Dementor, but > wouldn't we know if that had happened to Bary, Jr.? I think he's just > a living body with no memories or emotions, somehow permanently > soulless. His body will die but his soul will go nowhere, having been > absorbed into the evil essence of the Dementor. AmanitaMuscaria writes: I've written a fanfic on just this premise - it's on FictionAlley. It's quite gruesome, though - you've been warned! > Anyone have any idea what happened to the soul-sucked victims of the > Dementors? Would the Azkaban guards have left them to die? (Maybe > that's what happened to some of our missing DEs from VW1?) And where > is what remains of Barty, Jr., now? In a St. Mungo's ward for the > incurably and criminally insane? Ideas, anyone? > > Carol AmanitaMuscaria writes: The soul-sucked might just wither away and die, as prisoners in Azkaban supposedly do - interesting that Voldemort's supporters all seem to have survived, though? There's also another consideration - it has been pointed out that Dementors sound similar to the Lethifold - the sightings we've had, where Harry states he's seen Dementors - how many have actually been Dementors? The way the Dementors left after attacking Harry and Dudley sounded different from the other sightings. Through Harry's eyes, we've seen boggarts and Slytherins as Dementors; maybe the other times, when no one with maybe more experience was there they weren't Dementors either? I'm not sure why , but it seems suspicious to me that the two times we have outside confirmation, they weren't. The only sighting I really believe is on the train to Hogwarts, and Harry hardly saw the thing before he fainted. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Feb 21 14:52:35 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:52:35 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91372 ilexrdh" wrote: > Hi,I'm new to the site, so as I'm at lunch & don't have time to > search the archives to see if this has come up before, I'll just go > ahead & ask... > > In book 4, when Harry & Cedric are portkeyed to the cemetery & > Voldemort gets his body back & starts telling his story to the Death > Eaters to give them a major guilt trip, he has his wand back. If he > became almost a ghost-like creature when his spell to kill Harry > backfired on him & by his own admission "couldn't use a wand to > perform the spells that would have helped him" (that's not a direct > quote, but you'll remember that bit of the story).......HOW DID HE > GET HIS WAND BACK????????? Did Pettigrew go to the Potter's > house, but missed seeing the "spirit" of Voldemort, but found his > wand & kept it all those years???? Was that the wand he had behind > his back when he was confronted by Sirius Black on the street where > he killed all of those Muggles & got away by transfiguring???? > I'd love to know, as this is the only really serious problematic > thing that bugs me about the Potter books. > > Thanks in advance for any answers of theories you might have. Neri now: As far as I know, this is one of the unanswered questions of the series as yet. There are similar questions regarding Wormtail's and Sirius's wands. Recently, when I was pondering this, I was reminded of Corwin, the hero of the Amber series by Zelazny. He has this magic sword Gracewondeer (I think I'm spelling it incorrectly, but a nice name for a sword nevertheless) and it has kind of an affinity to him. No matter for how many years he has lost it, or if it is held by his enemies, he just has to remember it, and then he puts his hand into a hole in the next tree or something, and takes it out. I wonder if wands have a similar affinity to their owners. They are magical things, after all, and they choose their wizards. Another option: maybe you can put a homing spell on your wand, which brings up the interesting question: how do you use your wand to put a spell on the wand itself? Neri From CoyotesChild at charter.net Sat Feb 21 14:57:43 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 08:57:43 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c3f88b$18e8abf0$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 91373 > Carol: > How come no one except me wants it to be Theo Nott (weedy and stringy > like a young Snape)--the poor kid's father is a wimpy excuse for a > death Eater, but Theo is not a close friend of Draco and his thugs. I > think it would be a real breakthrough if this quiet Slytherin boy who > can see the Thestrals somehow communicates with Harry. > > What have we seen of Blaise Zabini other than his being made a > Slytherin by the Sorting Hat? But JKR has specifically mentioned > Theodore Nott in OoP--*and* his father (who was in the graveyard in > GoF and the DoM in OoP, making a singularly unimpressive, almost > pitiable, showing in both cases. This man, like a much older Regulus > Black, is in too deep and can't get out. So I hope the complex/good > Slytherin is Theo, who somehow finds a way to rescue poor old dad. > > Carol, who wonders if people like Blaise Zabini for his name Iggy here: Well, to be completely honest, I didn't even think of Theo Nott (partly because I didn't remember him until you commented on him). But, with what you say, I do agree that Theo Nott *would* be the most likely candidate (and a good one) for the role of Complex/Good!Slytherin. (And in his case, it might even be "Redeeming!Slytherin" in redeeming his family's name at least a bit somehow.) Iggy McSnurd From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Feb 21 16:18:08 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:18:08 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Magic and the Mirror Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91374 The Magic and the Mirror To the tune of The Music and the Mirror from A Chorus Line Sorry, no MIDI! Dedicated to Ginger THE SCENE: The Ghost of Professor Quirrell, singing in an unmistakably Norwegian accent, pleads with Lord Voldemort for another chance at life QUIRRELL Give me a body to live in Let me come back from the dead Let me arise from the graveyard to see Through two eyes in the back of your head To have someone to target for vengeance To be someone again Hide me, guide me, Lord, I'm your Quirrell, A Quirrell cure-all! Give me a plan I can plot with. Give me a web I can weave Help me return to the world of living I guarantee Potter will leave. Play me the magic, Give a chance to renew. All I ever needed was the magic And the mirror and some prime face time with you Bring me to life and the Potterverse Comes to an end If you bring me to life I'll become a great turban legend Put me to work, I will let You have total control. Of my whole soul! Not to be wielded by weaklings Power is there for the strong. Give me the chance to reflect all your teachings "There's neither a right nor a wrong!" Play me the magic Give me a chance to renew All I ever needed was the magic and the mirror And some prime face time-- Play me the magic! Play me the magic! Play me the magic! Go for the old d?j? vu ! All I ever needed was the magic and the mirror And Harry dead at Erised!? - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 21 16:32:47 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:32:47 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91375 > Carol: > How come no one except me wants it to be Theo Nott > Carol, who wonders if people like Blaise Zabini for his name Tee hee. BEFORE I saw this last bit, I was about to reply and suggest that I think lots of people just think his name is cool. So there you have it. Yes, I think that does explain it for some of us. Plus the fact that we HAVEN'T heard of a DE Zabini, which maybe makes him seem less likely to have come from a diehard DE family. Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Feb 21 16:56:10 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:56:10 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91376 > Carol wrote: > How come no one except me wants it to be Theo Nott > >>Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: >>.Plus the fact that we HAVEN'T heard of a DE Zabini, which maybe >> makes him seem less likely to have come from a diehard DE family To be honest, I haven't followed the entire thread. But I've often wondered if JKR had made the houses such stereotyes on purpose, or if she was planning something. I think the latter. I'm re-reading PoA now and I noticed in very small ways she undercuts the stereotypes. When Harry first meets the hypogryff, everyone applauds except for Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. I would like to see some tension in Slytherin between the DE kids and the "good" kids. I think Theo Nott will turn out to be important. And I noticed he sounded like Snape too. Potioncat From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Feb 21 17:29:53 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:29:53 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Iggy : > > > I agree with the GOOD: > > Complex/Good!Slytherin (and I agree that it should be Blaise.) > > Carol: > How come no one except me wants it to be Theo Nott (weedy and stringy > like a young Snape)--the poor kid's father is a wimpy excuse for a > death Eater, but Theo is not a close friend of Draco and his thugs. I > think it would be a real breakthrough if this quiet Slytherin boy who > can see the Thestrals somehow communicates with Harry. > >snip< > > Carol, who wonders if people like Blaise Zabini for his name I agree with you. I want it to be Theodore Nott, too. He is IMO the far more interesting character in comparison to Blasie Zabini. He is a Death Eater's son, but he's not one of Draco's close friends. He wasn't even in the Inquisitorial Squad, as far as we know. That has to mean something. And we shouldn't forget, that it was Theodore, who was reintroduced in OotP, while Blaise Zabini just remained the name and is therefore on the same level as Lisa Turpin. And I really think that people like Blaise, because of the name. The name can be used for a male and a female character and is therefore excellent for fanfiction. I think that the interest for Blaise is mostly due to fanfiction. Hickengruendler From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 21 17:48:19 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:48:19 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91378 Hickengruendler wrote: > I want it to be Theodore Nott, too. And I really think > that people like Blaise, because of the name. And knowing JKR's penchant for names that turn out to be awful puns about a character - Nott. Theo's called Nott. He's Nott evil, geddit ;-) Pip!Squeak [Oh, and Theodore means 'gift of god'. A godsend to Harry's side? (grin)] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 21 19:44:41 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:44:41 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HOW many classmates? References: <1077343658.13088.80494.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003801c3f8b3$260370e0$394e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 91379 Dorapye wrote: >" 'It was murder,' said Harry. He could feel himself shaking. He >had hardly spoken to anyone about this, least of all THIRTY eagerly >listening classmates. 'Voldemort killed him and you know it.'" > >Woah, there! THIRTY classmates? We have only 8 known Gryffindors in I get the impression from the books that once JKR had said publicly that there are around 1000 students at Hogwarts, all the references to numbers (not only this one, which I hadn't noticed before, but also the Yule Ball, the exam scene, etc) are all written with that in mind. But I agree that we know the names of far fewer students than we first thought gwyn eich byd Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 21 20:11:40 2004 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:11:40 -0000 Subject: The tragedy of Ron Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91380 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > > > Matters are worse, not better, with his friends. Ron is clearly the least capable magician and the worst student. Ron main skill, processing a lifetime of knowledge that the orphaned Harry and Muggle- born Hermione, is slipping. Further, Harry and Hermione have formed a double within a trio, witness their actions in OOP, leaving Ron out in the cold. I'm rather curious about how you've formed this conclusion. As I see the group dynamics in the trio, they've each taken turns in being the odd one out on the important issues in the last three books. In PoA, it was Ron and Harry on one side, Hermione on the other. In GoF, it was Harry and Hermione vs Ron, and in OoP, it's Ron and Hermione vs Harry. Saying that Harry and Hermione spend more time together than Ron and Hermione do also fails to take into account that the books are written in Harry's POV. As Ron and Hermione were together in the townhouse at Grimmauld Place and spent a lot of the school year being prefects together, I wouldn't be surprised if *Harry* is the one feeling left out. In a sense, that is one of the main reasons he begins to form other friendships -- Neville, Luna, Ginny, Cho. Ron is starting to emerge out of the shadows of his brothers through virtues of his own (for instance, I think it's rather significant that none of the other Weasley brothers ever played Keeper; Ron's achievements can't be compared to theirs). He's been getting the things he's wanted, though nothing has come easily to him. There are no free lunches for Ron Weasley, but Voldemort is fast running out of things to tempt him with. Ron's future isn't just about him and Harry, either. Even if he does harbour resentment towards Harry, would that lead him to be disloyal to his family, the Order, Dumbledore? Start to actively support people and values he's been taught to regard with suspicion? I'd say no. Even though Harry and he weren't talking for a couple of weeks (and that was as much Harry's fault), Ron never sported "Potter stinks" badges. Alshain the Obvious Ron-lover From starropal at hotmail.com Sat Feb 21 20:14:13 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:14:13 -0600 Subject: Filk - Just Like You Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91381 Dedicated to my muse Lord Thingy! Just Like You by Star Opal To the tune of _Just That Good_ by The Calling *Tom Riddle twirls Harry's wand while explaining the mastery of anagrams and evil lording.* A little ink, to cover what's deep inside A little truth I bent so she would confide I was trying, was trying just to get to you She was telling me everything of you, I say Don't hate me, Cause I'm just like you I've got to hand it to you now What's your secret Harry? Now the 'Boy Who Lived' for just beating me? And who could have even dreamed Seems like fate must be true What a real delight, you see, Just meeting you... say Don't hate me, Cause I'm just like you Both orphaned mixed bloods we two I made me, and I'm just like you Now outside, can't you see Everyone I know will be falling And crawling before Lord Voldemort Dumb Hagrid frame, and some charm, all I needed to disarm They're stupid, they're stupid, stupid And I say, Don't hate me, Cause I'm just like you And we're both Parselmouths too I made me, and I'm just like you Dumbledore would change me if he could! All this time with muggles will wear on you As the same it has with me I'm good as far as good suits me to be Don't hate me, Cause I'm just like you Just like you... _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sat Feb 21 20:52:41 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Jami DeQuardo) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:52:41 -0600 Subject: The tragedy of Ron Weasley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91382 In message # 91368, "johnbowman19" wrote: (snipped to highlight relevant portion of post) ------------ Ron has common sense you know (how could someone possibly trick you into betraying your best friend? and causing them harm?). ---------- Did you miss the introduction of the Imperius Curse in GoF? I think it's quite clear how a chracter weakness such as a tenfdency to feel inferior, resent his family's poverty ("Why is everything I owe rubbish?!") and to see his best friend as a rival who appears to be chramed to have everything Ron has not might lead to this weakness of Ron's to be used against him. WE all have weaknesses and just like Harry's weakness for saving people and heroics was used against him in OotP, I think we will see Ron's weaknesses turned against him. Of course you'd like to see him overcome this, but, only time will tell. Watching a character fight the temptations of his own weaknesses is the most basic of epic storylines. I'd bet a thousand galleons we'll see it in 6 or 7. ----------- I try my hardest to outdo my brothers and sisters, and I am sure Ron does too. ----------- Er, but he does NOT try very hard at all. Percy obviously had ambtion in spades. Even Fred and George had an unquenchable entrepreneurial spirit. Ron, however, doesn't want to take notes in class, he doesn't want to do his own homework (he'd rather copy from Hermione) and he'd much rather play a game than study. I'd say he doesn't try very hard at all to outdo his family and it's even worse it seems because he has Harry and Hermione beside him which means he's very unlikely to outshine either of them in intellect. ----------------- His two closest brothers are screw-ups and he has already surpassed them by being a prefect. I think he has already surpassed Percy in character because he is more loyal. Ron has more common sense and friends then Percy ever did. We do not know much about Charlie and Bill save their jobs and personalities. Charlie was a great chaser, but Ron is a great keeper. Bill is cool and so is Ron. Why should Ron feel inferior? Ron won the cup almost single-handedly. He was carried off the field on the shoulders of his peers. ---------------- Ok, I definitely do NOT think the twins are screw ups. Even Hermion sees that they are indeed clever. They simply do not place emphasis on school marks or a job at the ministry. They set goals, take risks and give a full effort to acheive their goals even despite their mother's not only lack of support but active squashing of their hopes (in GoF she destroyed thier ordering forms and confiscated their products any time she found them). In compariosn to Charlie (who was a Seeker, btw), Charlie was one of the BEST Seekers. In PS, McGonagall describes Harry's flying to catch the Remberall as something 'Charlie Weasley couldn't have done'. Chralie's skills seem to be legendary even beyond his time at Hogwarts. In comparison, Ron had one--ONE-- game where he wasn't abysmal. He does not warrant being termed 'a great keeper' as you say. He's 1-3 good performances to poor and he would've been replaced before he got the one good one if there'd been an alternative. Before that last game, despite the fact that everyone knew G-dor could take the Cup if they won, not one of them was daring to hope because of Ron's past Keeping. (p602, UK Adult Ed) I'd say much of the turn about when they did win and Ron played well was do to being jubilant when they'd never felt they had a hope. Also, Ron did not win the game on his own. Quidditch is a team sport and without Ginny catching the Snitch or ewveryone else working topgether, they would not necessarily have won. In Ron's recalling of the match (beginning of Ch 31) you never once hear him mention any of the other players for G-dor until he talks about the look on Cho's face when Ginny got the Snitch. He wasn't a very gracious *team* member there while he gave only the most detailed accounts of *his* prowess in the air. Reminded me an awful lot of his boastful (and exaggerated) recollections of the Second Task in GoF. ---------------------- How many boys are in Griffyndor in Harry and Ron's year? A lot. Ron is chosen because DD didn't want Harry to do it. This means in DD's eyes Ron's maybe second best, but second best in the eyes of the most powerful wizard in the world? That is not bad. Ron is chosen because DD thinks he is just as capable at being a prefect as Harry would have been. Ron is his replacement in DD's eyes. Wouldn't that fill you with confidence? ---------- First--there are only 3 other boys in G-dor for thier year. Yes, JKR gave some chat a number of years ago with the notion that she felt Hogwarts had a great number of students, but the fact is now, we've never seen them. There are five boys in the year. Five. Second, the definition of "second-best" means that one is not 'just as capable' as the other. And no, knowing I was a sloppy-secoind choice and "replacement" would not fill in my confidence especially when it's known that I'm the best friend of the first choice. Look at the other choices--Seamus--DD may not have wanted to risk Seamus having authority over Harry and rightfully so as Seamus was not a fan of Harry's. Dean--good friend with Seamus it's always appeared and we don't know a lot about him. Neville--did not have the confidence or experience to subjectively evaluate actions to carry out an authrity figure role. Ron--best friends with Harry and Hermione and who DD could be assured would look to the reliable Hermione for being the "lead" prefect and also who would stand beside Harry at all costs. The overall point is that Ron would NOT have been the Prefect if Harry didn't already have the burden of saving the freaking world. Period. DD knew it, Shaklebolt knew it, Hermione knew it--and I personally threw my book across the room when I read Ron was the Prefect--it was not earned IMHO. ---------------- All of Harry's accomplishments have been aided in some way by Ron. And have been through too much to not trust each other and to be jealous of each other. ---------------- Ron didn't help in away for Harry to accomplish the 1st Tak ion GoF--where was he? Oh yes, he was busy being jealous and believing Harry to be a liar. I think your memory may be a tad selective. Ron didn't help HArry survive the Dursleys for ten years. Ron didn't help Harry face Quirrelmort (he was left behind on the chess board). Ron was caught behind a pile of rocks and didn't help Harry defeat a Basilisk and Tom Riddle. Ron was in the hospital wing when Harry and Hermione Time Turned and saved Sirius and Buckbeak. Ron wasn't with Harry when he had to be tied to a headstone and have his blood stolen to give rebirth to his parents' murderes. Ron didn't help Harry to face done dozens of Death Eaters and one newly resurrected Voldemort. Ron didn't help Harry learn Occlumency as he should have and Ron was busy spouting off how he liked 'Uranus' and Accio'ing brains to help when Harry went after Bellatrix to avenge Sirius and ended up facing Voldemort--yet again. Ron has never--not once--even seen Voldemort--none of Harry's friends have. Only Dumbledore and Snape might be able to say they've seen Lord Thingy. Okay, this post is way too long and I'm ending it here. Basically, I just wanted to refute some overly selective arguments that were trying to support Ron as the equal hero to Harry. Arya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From starropal at hotmail.com Sat Feb 21 22:14:54 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:14:54 -0600 Subject: Filk - Death's a Show Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91383 That Scar With Feeling by Star Opal; filked from Joss Whedon's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Once More With Feeling". MIDIs found here: http://www.morleysoft.freeserve.co.uk/midi/buffy.html Dedicated to Joss Whedon and his evil rhyme schemes Death's a Show To the tune of _Life's a Show_ THE SCENE: Prisoner of Azkaban; Chapter 19, The Servant of Lord Voldemort: Sirius and Lupin explain about Scabbers, the rat formerly know as Peter. Sirius: Death's a show He left behind some parts Went over to dark arts Ripped out all our hearts Prove I'm right! It all went very wrong Told on Lily and Prongs And then I came along Gone my life And hope. Get today My gift. Wishes can Come true. This'll be Reward. So much I've paid. Change Keeper my design I blame myself for their demise This is for Prongs This is for Prongs Have no mercy. Yeah I'm fresh out *Trio sings the 'Aahs'* Don't have mercy. Yeah I'm fresh out *Sirius gets ready to exterminate Scabbers/Peter, but Lupin holds his wrist and continues explaining to the Trio* Lupin: One year long Our secrets were dispersed Suspicion made it worse By division we were cursed Close best friends Can't trust them anymore Peter we all ignored One should be watching for So this rat Defend. Family And friends, Betrayed all. Truth bend. Paper shows. Frame ends. All this Depends On if you let us show Then we'll know all we need to know And we will see On count of three *Peter turns back into a man and tries begging* Pettigrew: Threatened with pain, Had fear and doubt So I sold them out. Would've killed me What was to gain? Everywhere He was everywhere. Killed me. I'm sure he would've killed me *Seeing no chance with Sirius and Lupin he turns to the Trio* So please have mercy, don't rub me out! Please! Give me mercy! *Sirius and Lupin raise their wands to execute Peter. Harry steps in the way...* Harry: It is not good. Do not do this. Won't give you bliss. Its killing. Though think it should This pain that you feel Never will heal By killing. You have to stop the killing Parents wouldn't want you killing _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable access with MSN 9 Dial-up. Click here for Special Offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Feb 21 22:16:42 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:16:42 -0000 Subject: UK slang site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol, who has a completely unrelated question: What the heck does > Tonks mean by "Wotcher"?" > Udder_P_D: > Wotcher in normal use would mean 'Hello how are you'. Nothing more > complicated than that. > Carol: > So if I tell a ten-year-old that it mean "wocher doin?" (as in "How ya > doin'," that'll be close enough, right? Though I do like the > etymological information for my own purposes. Geoff: Ah, you're hitting the problems of Cockney and Sarf Lunnon accents. "Wotcher" on it's own means "How are you?", "Hi" - from "what cheer" as has been pointed out already. However, if you hear a Londoner or someone with a related accent say "wotcher doin'?" this in fact is just "what are you doing?" - i.e. what activity are you pursuing?. It is probably just lazy speech. I must admit, hand on heart, that I use both expressions still when I'm not thinking about my speech and am tired or busy. From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 21 22:31:44 2004 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:31:44 -0000 Subject: Initials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91385 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > > Berit replies: > > > > ...And what is the problem? Didn't get that... :-) If Tonks is > > somewhere between 20 and 22 years old, and Charlie is in his mid > > twenties, that's hardly any age difference to speak of, is it? snip > Of course you're right. Even if Charlie is in his late twenties-- > which, now that I think about it, he might be. I guess I was just > reacting to the idea that age was something they specifically had > going for them. > AC Whizbang: I think you're right. Bill is a couple of years older than Charlie and Fleur is younger than Tonks, but they "seem" happy. From carrilynne at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 21 13:41:44 2004 From: carrilynne at sbcglobal.net (carrilynne) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:41:44 -0000 Subject: Harry's Eyesight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91386 Berit: > I don't know if the glasses give him/his eyes some sort of > protection, but it is interesting that Harry losing his glasses is > one of the details Rowling chose to add to this scene... > > There is one important "dream-scene" though where it looks like Harry > did have his glasses on, and that's when he has the Voldemort- induced > dream of Sirius being tortured in the MoM. The only mentioning of > Harry's eyes is that they were stinging and watering as he worked on > his exam paper. It would be natural to assume that he wore his > glasses when he was doing the exam. There is no mentioning of him > taking them off. > > Sooo, I guess this means Voldemort could still get at Harry when he > had his glasses on... That scene is rather obscure about his glasses. "Harry closed his eyes and buried his face in his hands, so that the glowing red of his eyelids grew dark and cool... He opened his eyes; they stung and watered at the sight of the blazing-white parchment..... THINK, he told himself, his face in his hands..." (pg.726-US) I wear glasses and if I put my face in my hands, the first thing I have to do when trying to see is to clean the handprints off the lenses. And if my eyes are stinging I'll take my glasses off and rub my eyes. However, if Harry covered his eyes with his hands, that would block the light that caused his eyelids to be "glowing red" and his lenses would have a cooling effect. But if his hands were clammy, they would cool his eyes as well. I am just not sure that Harry still had his glasses on. Circumstances would allow for him to take them off, but JK doesn't tell us. I do find it interesting that on the same page, Harry wishes that he could perform Legilimency and get the answers out of Parvati's head; right in the middle of signs that Voldemort is performing Legilimency on Harry! In the scene at MofM after Voldemort flees, "Harry opened his eyes, saw his glasses lying at the heel of the headless statue... He put them on and raised his head an inch to find Dumbledore's crooked nose inches from his own." (pg.816US) When did his glasses fall off? Did Voldemort's possession cause them to fall or did Harry's fall make them fall off? Even in this case, it appears that Voldemort possessed Harry while Harry still had his glasses on. On a different note, why did Harry not see Dumbledore until he put his glasses on? He was INCHES away from Harry's nose. If Harry only lifed his head an INCH, then Dumbledore was already somewhere in his range of vision before putting his glasses on. This appears to be another hint to the identity of Dumbledore. Or can Harry only see the Magic world if he has his glasses on? ~Carri From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Sat Feb 21 16:54:13 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:54:13 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91387 > > Carol: > > How come no one except me wants it to be Theo Nott > I, too, had totally forgotten him. He would be a very interesting choice for Good!Slytherin. Of course, his name means "Not God" or "Not loved by God" (at least, if you want to read it that way). So who knows what JKR has in mind for Clan Nott. AC From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Sat Feb 21 16:57:51 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:57:51 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91388 > Neri now: > (snip) >Another option: > maybe you can put a homing spell on your wand, which brings up the > interesting question: how do you use your wand to put a spell on the > wand itself? Well, the ever-popular Lumos spell is a wand-effect spell, yes? I think there are spells that simply activate some sort of power within the wand itself. AC From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 22 00:27:01 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:27:01 -0000 Subject: Balance of power Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91389 In reading the "Ron" post, and the several responses to it, something occured to me. I have never thought of the three friends as representing a rather complete balance of power. Though all of the trio have comparable abilities, they all posssess unique strengths. Harry seems to possess a strength when it comes to magic and magical ability especially in fighting the dark arts. Hermione is book smart, very clever at solving logic problems, and remembering the spells they can use in a particular setting to do what they need to do. Ron, as many people have mentioned, has a great mind for strategy, and I think he is also showing a sort of patience about things that could be helpful. IOW, he is able to stop and think before he makes a decision (Hermione does this as well). We rarely see the three of them working together since the SS/PS when the had to get to the stone and it took all three to do so. Since that time it has usually been H/H or R/H and in OotP it was a whole cast of characters at the end. Here is my point: The three of them together are better than any two, and in the end it is going to take all three of them to get *The One* to the place where he can save the world. This one is off the cuff...blast away! Sue, who is wondering today if Harry actually used legilimency to see into Parvati's head during the Magical History OWL exam or if Lord Thingy was sitting in his study, strumming his fingers irritatedly(?) remembering historical facts while he waited for Harry to fall asleep. From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 01:08:41 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 01:08:41 -0000 Subject: HOW many classmates? In-Reply-To: <003801c3f8b3$260370e0$394e6751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" > > I get the impression from the books that once JKR had said publicly that > there are around 1000 students at Hogwarts, all the references to numbers > (not only this one, which I hadn't noticed before, but also the Yule Ball, > the exam scene, etc) are all written with that in mind. > > But I agree that we know the names of far fewer students than we first > thought > > gwyn eich byd > > Ffred dorapye: Yes, this is what she has said, but people have always found it so hard to marry the numbers up, largely as we only have 8 Gryffindors in Harry's year in canon. I have read several ESSAYS on this quandary, the best known subject being the "two missing Gryffindor girls" (see The Lexicon) where people have argued that there must be two extra classmates in Harry's third year DADA class, when you extrapolate from the number of changes the Boggart (in the wardrobe) makes during the lesson (it makes 8 changes and Harry and Hermione didn't get a turn to face it, hence 10 students). However, if we take it that there are *thirty* Gryffindors in the class, Harry and Hermione not getting their turn with the Boggart doesn't seem quite so....significant...or unfair... (except that Lupin dives in front of Harry to prevent him from tackling it). Truly, I always kinda thought there were more than 8 Gryffindors in Harry's year. Classes like Transfiguration, DADA, History of Magic, (the compulsory subjects Harry takes from 1st year) would be absurd with only 8 pupils... Little things, like Harry and Ron's fake wand fight at the back of their Tranfiguration class (never any canon for them sharing the class with other houses) and Lavender and Parvati's giggling during McGonagall's announcement about the Yule Ball during the same lesson....how could this behaviour go unnnoticed in a class of 8 students? My feeling (no canon, obviously) was that we had only been introduced to the boys who shared Harry's dorm and the girls that shared Hermione's; the fact that many of these students also chose the same "option" subjects at the end of the second year (CMC, Divination) is just, perhaps, coincidental. However, with this number of "eagerly listening" DADA classmates during OotP, a subject for which we have *never* had any indication of Harry having to share lessons with students from other houses, I now have some support for believing there are many more Gryffindors in Harry's year whom we have not met. By implication, this will also mean there are more Hufflepuffs, Ravenclaws and Slytherins. And perhaps an explanation for why Harry does not know the name of Theo Nott - he actually *hadn't* shared Potions lessons for the last 5 years with Theo Nott. For the lessons that are shared with other houses, I suggest that the house groups are split into "sets" (not ability sets, but probably, as would seem logical from the books, based around the dorms the students are placed in). So, in some lessons, different sets from different houses are put together (Flying - 20 brooms). This might be important to encourage inter-house friendliness or for some lessons it may be necessary to have fewer pupils for safety reasons e.g. Herbology and Potions. So, Andrew Kirke and Jack Sloper could indeed be Gryffindors in Harry's year (I forget who pointed out to another poster that the two Gryffindor Beaters could not be fifth years as this would make them the same year as Harry and there are only 4 boys besides Harry in his year group). Let's say the Sorting Hat does literally "quarter" the students each year, and take Harry's estimate of 30 DADA classmates as his full house complement, times by 4, then by 7 and we get 840 students at Hogwarts. Of course, each year group may very in numbers, so this could still be way off, but this is still a lot closer to JKR's 1000 or so, and just makes better sense. Any thoughts? dorapye From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 01:29:55 2004 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 01:29:55 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > Hickengruendler wrote: > > > I want it to be Theodore Nott, too. > Hickengruendler Whizbang writes: I suspect the good slytherin is Tonks. At the prefect party when asked if she had been a prefect, she answered that her head of house said that she lacked certain necessary qualities. Ginny asks, "Like what?" "Like the ability to behave myself." Sounds like Snape might have been her head of house. lol And considering her heritage, it seems possible she was a slytherin, even though her father was muggleborn. Tom Riddle's father was a muggle. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Feb 22 01:58:34 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 01:58:34 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91392 > Whizbang writes: > > I suspect the good slytherin is Tonks. At the prefect party when > asked if she had been a prefect, she answered that her head of >house said that she lacked certain necessary qualities. > Ginny asks, "Like what?" > "Like the ability to behave myself." Sounds like Snape might >have been her head of house. That does sound like Snape doesn't it? I think it is very interesting that we hardly ever hear which house adults were in. Of course, it stops being important once you're out of school and in the real world. I'd really like to know, but I wonder how that would color our opinion of characters? Maybe it will come out later for some of them. I sort of wonder if the real Moody was Slytherin. That would give us 3 "good" Slytherins. Potioncat From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 22 02:01:59 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 02:01:59 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91393 > > Whizbang writes: > > I suspect the good slytherin is Tonks. At the prefect party when > > asked if she had been a prefect, she answered that her head of > >house said that she lacked certain necessary qualities. > > Ginny asks, "Like what?" > > "Like the ability to behave myself." Sounds like Snape might > >have been her head of house. Potioncat responded: > That does sound like Snape doesn't it? Siriusly Snapey Susan says: That's interesting, because when I read that line--"Like the ability to behave myself"--I can easily hear McGonagall saying it, as well! From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Feb 22 02:25:13 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 02:25:13 -0000 Subject: HOW many classmates? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dorapye" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" > > > I get the impression from the books that once JKR had said > publicly that > > there are around 1000 students at Hogwarts, all the references to > numbers > > (not only this one, which I hadn't noticed before, but also the > Yule Ball, > > the exam scene, etc) are all written with that in mind. > > Dorapye wrote: > Yes, this is what she has said, but people have always found it so > hard to marry the numbers up, largely as we only have 8 Gryffindors > in Harry's year in canon. > snip< > Let's say the Sorting Hat does literally "quarter" the students each > year, and take Harry's estimate of 30 DADA classmates as his full > house complement, times by 4, then by 7 and we get 840 students at > Hogwarts. Of course, each year group may very in numbers, so this > could still be way off, but this is still a lot closer to JKR's 1000 > or so, and just makes better sense. > > Any thoughts? Dorapye, you brought up some very good points. The numbers have never made sense to me. Neither 40 new students a year nor 1000 students make any sense with just the 4 main teachers. It's not like we hear "Harry hopes to get a different potions teacher this time..." Professor Snape teaches all the potions classes, McGonagall the transfigurations, etc. They couldn't teach 1000 students, could they? On the oher hand, several of the classes appear to be only the one house of 8-10 students. Sounds wonderful, but how could that work either? I've always chalked it up to JKR being as number challenged as I am. (To me it's one, two, more than two..) And I've just ignored the discrepencies.) OK, so this post was no help at all! Potioncat From morganmuffle at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 21 15:24:55 2004 From: morganmuffle at yahoo.co.uk (morganmuffle) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:24:55 -0000 Subject: Aurors (wasRe: Initials) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91395 Berit wrote:- > > Age-wise, and even personality-wise I believe Tonks might turn > > out to be a very nice match for Charlie... don't you think? :-) AC: > As for Tonks/Charlie... well, I'll buy personality match. But if we go with the idea that Tonks went straight from Hogwarts to Auror training (three years), followed by a year on active duty, then she's 20 or 21--five or six years older than the Trio and Co. Isn't Charlie in his mid-20s? Or am I screwing up the timeline in my head? And, then, it's always possible that Nymphadora (she's got to end up as SOMEONE's romantic interest with a name like that!) didn't qualify as an Auror right out of school.... >>> I just noticed on a reread of OotP that in that Careers Talk McGonagall says that as far as she knows no Aurors have been taken on in the last three years! That means Tonks can't be any younger than 24 (she must have been taken on before those three years plus the Auror training) which puts her much closer to Charlie in age. I find it quite worrying however that the Wizarding Worlds Auror force hasn't been added to in the last 3 years. We know it's quite small from having seen their office in the ministry but still, I would have thought that would be cause to worry. Exactly how are the Ministry supposed to protect themselves or the Wizarding World with such a small force? Plus it does rather make Harry's ambition seem a little unlikely- these really are the best of the best and Harry's marks just don't support that. morganmuffle From dk59us at yahoo.com Sat Feb 21 15:35:47 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (dk59us) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:35:47 -0000 Subject: Ron's (and others') vulnerabilities (was Quidditch/ jealousy) In-Reply-To: <90180891.20040220135958@msn.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91396 After Eustace_Scrubb opined: And I also guess that as we get closer and closer to the last page of Book 7, the stakes are going to be considerably higher than they were in Book 4 and small errors in judgement may have greater fallout. Then Susanne wrote: Yes, most likely. But why does Ron have to be the one who is seen as the most likely catalyst (it comes up so often, it seems he's the only one considered to be prone to this)? Harry has already made several mistakes of this kind, and might make more, and so has Hermione. I guess it just irks me that, whenever this topic comes up, Ron is the automatic pick ;) As if he were ready to throw in his lot with LV, for a sack full of galleons and some fame. Eve when he *was* angry with Harry, he didn't show any signs of trying to sabotage him. Eustace_Scrubb again: No, Ron's not the only candidate for making a critical error of judgement. In fact, I would agree that so far he's avoided any such thing, while others have made hugely disastrous mistakes (Dumbledore keeping Harry in the dark about the prophecy, maybe Dumbledore's decision to have Snape teach Harry occlumency (though I think there may have been a purpose to that we don't know about yet), Harry's and Snape's joint failure to continue the lessons, Harry's unquestioning belief in his dream despite his knowledge that LV likely had access to his mind, Sirius' underestimation of Kreacher's malevolence and the harm he could do to the Order...I'm sure there are others (I can't right at this moment think of a similar mistake on Hermione's part either--one that had really negative consequences...please let me know if I've missed one) And as I've said before, I highly doubt that Ron would ever pull a Pettigrew and openly join LV. But, we know that LV is able to exploit small weaknesses in the armor of Harry and the Order. If he has sources of information that suggest that there are ways to get to Harry's supporters, he's shown that he will make use of them. All of this is rank speculation, we know that--in Hermione's case, there's the idea that LV may go after her parents; in Harry's, that somehow LV might be able to get something damaging out of the Dursleys (possibly by depriving Harry of the refuge that Lily's sacrifice and Dumbledore's magic provided him). I would guess that LV has known that Ron and Hermione are Harry's closest friends at least since Pettigrew returned to him between POA and GOF. He's not much of a Dark Lord if he hasn't been seeking (in his spare time, at least) to learn all he can about them--from the end of GOF until his recent incarceration, I would expect that Lucius Malfoy would have been pumping Draco for just such information. He surely knows that Ron is important enough to Harry that he was used in the Second Task of the Triwizard Tournament. What vulnerabilities would he see in Ron or Hermione? Whatever they are, he's not likely to just pop up and try to tempt or threaten them personally. He'll do it through agents whose loyalties may not be obvious. Anyway, please realize I'm not beating on Ron...but he's been one of the key characters from the first book, which is why so many are focused on him. And he's not going to turn out evil (nor is he going to turn out to be Dumbledore, I hope), but he's human, which is why it's not surprising that many wonder whether he may make a fateful misstep in one of these next two books. If he does, I expect that he will also have a chance to redeem himself before the end. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From tari_saralonde at yahoo.com Sat Feb 21 17:16:35 2004 From: tari_saralonde at yahoo.com (Tari) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:16:35 -0000 Subject: The tragedy of Ron Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91397 Hi, I'm generally a lurker here, but I simply feel compelled to reply to this post as Ron is one of my favourite characters. But first, since this is my first post, I'll introduce myself. My name's Tari, and I'm a university student studying in Paris. I've been reading HP for about two years now after PS was shoved into my hands by a flatmate - I was hooked after the first sentence. So, on with the post. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > > > > > Ron Weasley is one of the most tragic figures in the Potterverse. He's very much inferior to almost anyone else in most categories and is perhaps unable or unwilling to change. Ron is heading towards a massive crisis, even perhaps being tricked into betraying Harry, and, as such, is also one of the most misunderstood characters in the world of HP. > > > > First, a look at Ron's family. To quote Ron himself: > > > > "I'm the sixth in our family to go to Hogwarts. You could say I've got a lot to live up to. Bill and Charlie have already left -- Bill was head boy and Charlie was captain of Quidditch. Now Percy's a prefect. Fred and George mess around a lot, but they still get really good marks and everyone thinks they're really funny. Everyone expects me to do as well as the others, but if I do, it's no big deal, because they did it first. You never get anything new, either, with five brothers. I've got Bill's old robes, Charlie's old wand, and Percy's old rat." > -- Ron Weasley (SS6) > > > > He is in fact one of the odd ones out. The first two children did very well; while Percy is clearly his mother's favourite son, and Fred and George have a relationship between themselves that probably won't admit Ron. Ron has to live up to the other children's reputation, while lacking most of the support that they had. Ron is clearly aware that he's at the bottom of the family pile - Ginny, being a girl, would have had new things simply because of her body being different. If Ron did not have an inferiority complex, I would be very suppressed. > **Tari: Well, I think its pretty obvious that Ron has an inferiority complex (and he does have to get over that and realize how amazing he is), but he's not the only one in the series. Hermione had an inferiority complex as well earlier. However, she seems to have grown out of that in OotP... but that's another topic altogether. As for the Weasleys - I don't see where you got the idea that Percy is Molly's favourite son. She was clearly proud of him, but then, she's incredibly proud of all of her children. I see no canon evidence that Percy's her 'favourite.' With Ginny, she probably gets her clothes at a second hand store of some sort. Remember when Ron got his first set of dress robs? They weren't hand-me-down, they were bought second hand. I can't see that Molly would get Ginny all new things, while buying second hand for her sons. As for Ron being "clearly aware that he's at the bottom of the family pile." He may think this because of his inferiority complex, but that doesn't make it true, as is implied by this statement. Ron does see that his brothers have all stood out in their own way, and may feel that he could never live up to them, but that doesn't make it the truth. Chris: > > > Matters are worse, not better, with his friends. Ron is clearly the least capable magician and the worst student. Ron main skill, processing a lifetime of knowledge that the orphaned Harry and Muggle- born Hermione, is slipping. Further, Harry and Hermione have formed a double within a trio, witness their actions in OOP, leaving Ron out in the cold. This is not intentional, but children and teenagers rarely stop to consider that harm is sometimes accidental - for Ron not to feel any resentment, he would have to be a saint. > **Tari: I see no evidence that Ron is the "least capable magician and the worst student?" In PS Ron was working with someone elses wand (and we all know that wizards perform best with thier own wands), while in CoS, he was working with a broken wand. There were references in those books that Ron had difficulties with spells (Wingardeum Leviosa (exuse spelling errors please, my books are not at hand) and his wand backfired throughout CoS), but I cannot remember there being a specific mention to Ron's lack of skills with a wand since he's gotten his own wand. Academically, we don't know how Ron is doing. We do know that he doesn't like to do homework, and procrastinates, and bothers Hermione for notes. Hell, I do that, yet I have a pretty decent GPA. We'll have to wait for the OWL results... OK, yes, we see Harry and Hermione invovled in a lot of the action together in OotP, but what we don't see (because the books are from Harry's POV) is the interaction between Hermione and Ron. They spend a lot of time together without Harry. First at Grimmauld Place, then on the Hogwarts express, Prefect duties, when Harry's at Occlumency lessons. In the D.A. its Ron and Hermione who partner up. They spend much more time together alone than Harry and Hermione. chris: > > > Ron is clearly very poor, a stark contrast to Harry and Malfoy's wealth, which clearly grates on him. Having little money and no real prospect of obtaining any - unlike almost all of his siblings - Ron has another cause for resentment. > **Tari: So what if Ron comes from a poorer family. Malfoy comes from a wealthy family and you can see how he's turning out. And how does fon have "no real prospect of obtaining any" money? Because he's a student? I really don't understand this. He may not be making money now, but that doesn't mean he won't find a wonderful job that he loves and pays a lot of money. There's nothing in canon that says this won't happen. Ron may be a bit ashamed and embarrassed of his family's financial status, but I don't see resentment because of it. It seems as though he understands his family's current standing and accepts it even if he may not want others to know that his family isn't rich. Look what he does when he finds out he's become a prefect. He asks for a broomstick, but knowing that they're expensive, he goes and tells Molly to get him a Cleansweep, a broom that's more financially in reach. That shows maturity. He isn't resentful he's not getting a top of the line broomstick, he's thrilled he's just getting a broomstick! chris: > > > It gets worse. Harry is an excellent sportsman on a broomstick, again outshining Ron. Ron does get his chance in OOP, BUT, instead of watching from the sidelines, as Ron did in books 1-3, Harry and Hermione abandon the clearly nervous Ron - with good, but not excellent skills - and head off on their own mission. Again, I would be very surprised if Ron is not bitter. > **Tari: How do we know that Ron doesn't have excellent skills. We know he has good skills during most of OotP, but he was very nervous, and his skills suffered because of that. Once Fred and George left Hogwarts, though, Ron had a bit of pressure off his backs. Yes, he was nervous going into that last match, but he must have gotten over that nervousness - look what happened. From the reaction of the other students, Ron must have played incredibly well. As for Harry and Hermione leaving the game, look at the circumstances. Ron didn't (and couldn't) know they had left at the time, there was a stadium full of students cheering for him. Then there's Hagrid, who goes up to Harry and Hermione full of bruises and blood asking for their help. They go and help their friend, Hagrid. When Harry and Hermione told Ron that they were't at the game, Ron does seem a bit taken aback at first. However, once they explain why they left, Ron immediately seems to understand. Even if he feels a bit of resentment, he pushes it back because he can see what was more important in the long run. Again, this shows maturity. chris: > > > Ron does get some kudos in OOP, becoming a prefect. However, even this proud achievement is tainted: first Hermione congratulates the wrong person (assuming its for Harry), it's a honour shared by Malfoy and finally, Ron's brothers don't respect his authority. They mock him relentlessly, turning his victory to ashes in his mouth. As prefect, Ron commands no authority from the ones who matter most. > **Tari: Hermione walks into their room highly elated having just found out that she made prefect. She sees Harry holding a prefect pin and assumes he's been made a prefect. She wants to tell everyone that she's made prefect, so she says what she says (I'm sorry I can't quote or include page numbers - don't have my books with me). Yes, Malfoy's a prefect as well. So what? Ron being prefect is an honour shared by a lot of other people as well. Three of his older brothers were prefects as well as a lot of other respectable witches and wizards, I'm sure. Because Malfoy's a prefect doesn't mean that its a bad thing. As for his brothers. They only listen to Molly. And besides, what older sibling is going to want to take orders from their younger sibling. I'm the oldest in my family, and would have a very difficult time taking orders from any of my younger siblings. This is completely understandable. As for this "As prefect, Ron commands no authority from the ones who matter most." I don't see that. Look at the scene when Harry first goes back to the boy's dormitory and has a fight with Seamus. Ron has authority there, and uses it. Seamus listens and shuts up. That matters. Ron stands up for Harry, and this matters. chris: > > > Finally, Ron is clearly romantically interested in Hermione, but she appears not to return that interest. In GOF, she dates Krum - who sees Harry as a potential rival - and in the COS movie, hugs Harry and refuses to hug Ron. Ron must be very jealous of them, even though Harry and Hermione are not lovers, Ron may well suspect them to be. Ron's comments at the end of OOP about Ginny dating someone better, said with a sharp glance at Harry, could be interpreted as an attempt to set his rival up with someone else. > **Tari: Do you really think Hermione not interested in Ron? She goes to the Yule Ball with Krum, and they have a correspondence, but we don't know the extent of their relationship - if they're just friends or more. Krum clearly wanted more from Hermione, look at the way Krum confronted Harry, but we don't know how Hermione feels about him. Oh, and yes, Krum thinks of Harry as a rival, but that's because of that Rita Skeeter article. I highly doubt that Ron's furtive glance at Harry on the Hogwarts Express at the end of OotP was an "attempt to set his rival up with someone else." The way I see it is Ron trying to protect his younger sister. He wants the best for her, but also doesn't want to see her date. Harry's a safe option. Ron thinks highly of Harry, but Harry also doesn't appear interested in Ginny right now. Ron wants Ginny going back to having a ridiculous crush on Harry. That's something Ron's used to, something that's safe, because Harry doesn't seem to reciprocate those feelings. Therefore, Ginny wouldn't date, making Ron a happy older brother. chris: > > > How is this bad? Ron may be jealous enough of Harry (who has everything Ron wants without having to work for it (ok, there's a mad dark lord since book 4) that he may break up with Harry for good. As far as we know, Ron has no other friendships apart from Harry and Hermione, so a break-up would leave him alone, and we might expect Ginny to side with Harry or just ignore Ron's problems. A loner, Ron might well be seduced by Voldemort and betray Harry. Voldemort could offer Ron whatever he wants - there's no law for dark lords that say they have to follow though. > **Tari: Ron's extremely loyal, and I simply can't see him going to Voldemort. Ron and Harry had a bit of a hiccup in GoF, but honestly, what friendship doesn't at some point? Friend's fight. It happens. To me it seems apparant that Ron was the most mature member of the trio in OotP, and he won't succumb to petty jelousy and break his friendship with Harry for good again. The fight they had in GoF was huge. They might fight again, but it seems highly improbable that there will be another fight of that magnitude between them. chris: > > > Ron's case bears some limited comparison with Peter's. Peter was clearly, like Ron, the weakest of his set. Peter had hidden skills (like Ron's flying) and a cunning mind (Ron plays chess). We can guess that Peter was the last to find out that Remus was a werewolf - did James and co think he would be scared - and James affected a concern for him that would have been humiliating. Sirius's charge about Peter simply wanting the most powerful protector may be seriously mistaken - Peter is clearly able to take care of himself, not to mention Dumbledore being the most powerful wizard around. Ron is far more important in his circle than Peter was in his, yet there are uncomfortable similarities. **Tari: Ron is not like Peter. Ron is not the weakest of the set. Ron, Harry and Hermione are all equal components. What are Peter's hidden skills, I fail to see them. And as for a cunning mind, Peter does not have a cunning mind. He has a base mind, there's no cunning in there. Peter isn't able to take care of himself. In his school days Moony, Padfoot and Prongs take care of him, then Voldemort takes care of him, then the Weaselys take care of him before he goes back to Voldemort. He never takes care of himself, and is incapable of doing so. He's a sniviling rat who wants to look out for himself, but does it in the most vile and base way. chris: > > > > To conclude: Harry is rich - Ron is poor. Harry is a hero - Ron is a supporting character at best. Harry has the girls (in Ron's eyes) - Ron is too shy to ask a girl out. Harry has no family to look down on him - Ron's family are a weight around his neck. > **Tari: So what if Harry is rich and Ron is poor. They're still friends and they still respect each other. Harry needs a lot of support becasue of what he has to do and what he has gone through. That doesn't make Ron a sidekick, it makes him a hero in his own right. Harry's just as shy around girls as Ron is. Cho was forward in OotP, that's why that relationship happend, not because of Harry's initiative. Harry's only living relatives (the Dursleys) do look down on him. Ron's family greatly support both Ron and Harry. The twins may tease Ron, the way siblings tease each other, but they still support him. Tari From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sun Feb 22 02:48:33 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 02:48:33 -0000 Subject: Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91398 "justcarol67" wrote: SNIPPED > It's possible that a Dementor's victim turns into a Dementor, but > wouldn't we know if that had happened to Bary, Jr.? I think he's just > a living body with no memories or emotions, somehow permanently > soulless. His body will die but his soul will go nowhere, having been > absorbed into the evil essence of the Dementor. > > Anyone have any idea what happened to the soul-sucked victims of the > Dementors? Would the Azkaban guards have left them to die? (Maybe > that's what happened to some of our missing DEs from VW1?) And where > is what remains of Barty, Jr., now? In a St. Mungo's ward for the > incurably and criminally insane? Ideas, anyone? ------------------ In PoA, Remus says: {Dementors are among the foulest creatures that walk this earth. They infest the darkest, filthiest places, they glory in decay and despair, they drain peace, hope, and happiness out of the air around them. Even Muggles feel their presence, though they can't see them. Get too near a dementor and every good feeling, every happy memory will be sucked out of you. If it can, the dementor will feed on you long enough to reduce you to **something like itself... soul-less and evil.** You'll be left with nothing but the worst experiences of your life. } Note: **emphasis mine I'm betting on a Dementor Kissing a person making another Dementor. Misery does like company. Arya From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Feb 22 02:54:37 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 02:54:37 -0000 Subject: The tragedy of Ron Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91399 Arya: > Did you miss the introduction of the Imperius Curse in GoF? I think it's quite clear how a chracter weakness such as a tenfdency to feel inferior, resent his family's poverty ("Why is everything I owe rubbish?!") and to see his best friend as a rival who appears to be chramed to have everything Ron has not might lead to this weakness of Ron's to be used against him. < Yes, someone could put Ron under Imperius. But Imperius overcomes your will--it's not like hypnosis is said to be, where you can't be made to do anything you wouldn't willingly do anyway. So I'm not sure how Ron's supposed weakness of character would contribute to this. Part of growing up is learning what your weaknesses are and how to compensate for them. Ron had to do that in Book 4, Harry did it in Book 5, and I'll wager Hermione will do it in Book 6. Arya: >>Er, but he does NOT try very hard at all. Percy obviously had ambtion in spades. Even Fred and George had an unquenchable entrepreneurial spirit. Ron, however, doesn't want to take notes in class, he doesn't want to do his own homework (he'd rather copy from Hermione) and he'd much rather play a game than study. << Ron made quite an effort to get on the Quidditch team and then to be worthy of his spot. It took him along time to get over his psychological hangups, but he didn't give up although he became very discouraged. He does work pretty hard at persuading Hermione to take notes for him--that's efficient, since she's better at it than he is. And Hermione is stronger at magical theory and is a walking encyclopedia of spells . But that can be a handicap in a fight --like the centipede who couldn't decide which foot to move first. When they're actually in combat Ron does better than Hermione, who tends become unnerved in a crisis. OOtP is the first time she managed to keep her head. They both blew one obstacle in Lupin's DADA exam. Arya: >>and I personally threw my book across the room when I read Ron was the Prefect--it was not earned IMHO.<< I take it you don't like Ron But what makes you think, that Harry would have been a better prefect? Arya: >> Ron didn't help Harry learn Occlumency as he should have and Ron was busy spouting off how he liked 'Uranus' and Accio'ing brains to help when Harry went after Bellatrix to avenge Sirius and ended up facing Voldemort--yet again<< Harry's dilatory attempts to learn Occlumency are Ron's fault? Can you explain? --and I think you missed something in the battle at the MoM. Ron was hit with some sort of curse (or perhaps a close encounter with Jupiter, the planet of mirth) --he's not clowning around for fun. Arya: > just wanted to refute some overly selective arguments that were trying to support Ron as the equal hero to Harry.< I'm not sure what you mean by equal. Ron is certainly as brave, though he isn't as powerful. And Harry's dream of Ron and Hermione wearing crowns would indicate that Ron is destined for great things. JKR likes to put him in ridiculous situations...but that's not *his* fault. Pippin. From makaidoggie at yahoo.com.sg Sat Feb 21 20:08:44 2004 From: makaidoggie at yahoo.com.sg (=?iso-8859-1?q?melody=20leong?=) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:08:44 +0800 (CST) Subject: HOW many classmates?/ Are there an equal number of students in each house? In-Reply-To: <003801c3f8b3$260370e0$394e6751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <20040221200844.4899.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91400 Dorapye wrote: >" 'It was murder,' said Harry. He could feel himself shaking. He >had hardly spoken to anyone about this, least of all THIRTY eagerly >listening classmates. 'Voldemort killed him and you know it.'" > >Woah, there! THIRTY classmates? Ffred: > I get the impression from the books that once JKR had said publicly that there are around 1000 students at Hogwarts, all the references to numbers (not only this one, which I hadn't noticed before, but also the Yule Ball, the exam scene, etc) are all written with that in mind. <<< For Harry's year, there should be 5 boys and 5 girls in his house... right? Logically, wouldn't that mean that there are 40 in each year, and around 280 students in the school...? Melz From droosh at wideopenwest.com Sat Feb 21 23:10:33 2004 From: droosh at wideopenwest.com (thyerd) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:10:33 -0000 Subject: The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91401 Steve wrote: > Speculation on future events- > > Question in two parts, what do you think will happen to Umbridge > as a result of her actions before and at Hogwarts, and what do you > hope will happen to her? I also was amazed the DD let her just walk out and had her arrested after she had admitted in front of so many witness that she had attempted to murder Harry in his Muggle neighborhood by illegally dispatching Dementors. I don't understand their supposed "justice" system. Thoughts? "thyerd" From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 03:50:42 2004 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (JuHu) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:50:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040222035042.42226.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91402 --- cubfanbudwoman wrote: > > > Whizbang writes: > > > I suspect the good slytherin is Tonks. At the > prefect party > when > > > asked if she had been a prefect, she answered > that her head of > > >house said that she lacked certain necessary > qualities. > > > Ginny asks, "Like what?" > > > "Like the ability to behave myself." Sounds > like Snape might > > >have been her head of house. > > Potioncat responded: > > That does sound like Snape doesn't it? > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan says: > That's interesting, because when I read that > line--"Like the ability > to behave myself"--I can easily hear McGonagall > saying it, as well! > JuHu interjects: I think it interesting that Tonks said "My Head of House" rather that "Professor so-and-so." It would almost seem she were deliberately not saying who her head was, because saying a head's name would not need further clarification for all present. They would know that Professor so-and-so was a head of house, and therefore head of *her* house. (If you didn't follow that, don't worry, I'm having trouble following it myself) And besides, doesn't the Headmaster pick prefects? I suppose the Heads of House would have some input. JuHu, who wonders why DD or Snape would ever hand Malfoy more bullying power __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Feb 22 03:50:57 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 03:50:57 -0000 Subject: How many prefects per house? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91403 If this has been discussed, it was a long time ago, so I'd like to ask: How many prefects does each house have? In the first 4 books, I thought Percy was the only Gryffindor prefect. Then in book 5, we have Ron and Hermione. I had wondered before why there wasn't a boy and girl for each house. In his 7th year, Percy was Head Boy. Did he also serve as Gryffindor Prefect? Did JKR just not mention other prefects because it wasn't important to the plot? I'm asking because from OoP, we would think Hermione and Ron were the only Gryffindors prefects. Does that mean that McGonagall and Dumbledore looked at all 5th, 6th and 7th year Gryffindors and chose the 2 fifth years? So no one else has a chance until they graduate? After all, Percy was prefect for 5th and 6th year.(any maybe 7th) Could there be prefects from each of the 3 years? I was wondering if Ginny and Ron could be prefects at the same time? Any ideas? Potioncat From DBoyken at aol.com Sun Feb 22 04:01:57 2004 From: DBoyken at aol.com (chappysmom) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:01:57 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map/Time Turner in POA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91404 One question (okay, two): In POA, since Harry and Hermione repeated the three hours before Sirius was captured--wouldn't they have appeared on the Marauder's Map TWICE? When Lupin saw the map in his office, why didn't he see the Harry & Hermione lurking outside as well as the ones who went into Hagrid's hut with Ron? And, two, since Snape saw the Marauder's Map himself, why didn't he see Peter Pettigrew on it?? (Unless the Shrieking Shack is off the edge of the map and Scabbers was already beyond the border when Snape saw the map? That's the only explanation I can think of, although don't I remember him seeing Sirius and that's why he knew Lupin was going "to" him? Thanks, and sorry if this has been brought up--the archives are huge and I could have missed it! Deb in NJ From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Feb 22 04:08:24 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:08:24 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: <20040222035042.42226.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JuHu wrote: > I think it interesting that Tonks said "My Head of > House" rather that "Professor so-and-so." It would > almost seem she were deliberately not saying who her > head was, because saying a head's name would not need > further clarification for all present. >snip< > And besides, doesn't the Headmaster pick prefects? I > suppose the Heads of House would have some input. > > JuHu, who wonders why DD or Snape would ever hand > Malfoy more bullying power > I think it was JKR's way of not telling us which house Tonks came from. I never picked up on that and it's probably a big red flag! Tonks must have been more assertive than Harry if she went to her head of house and asked why she wasn't chosen. Or something came up for the head of house to drop it in conversation. >From OoP, it sounds like Dumbledore has final say, but I would think the head of house would have the first recommendation. As for Malfoy. I can see why Snape might offer his name. And I can see his being the leader of his year group anyway. But I'm surprised Dumbledore approved it. Of course, what good would it do for Zambini or Nott to be chosen if Malfoy would just overide them? Potioncat (who has a lot of questions about prefects and the house system.) > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 22 04:10:49 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:10:49 -0000 Subject: How many prefects per house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91406 snip Potioncat Wrote: > Did JKR just not mention other prefects because it wasn't important > to the plot? > snip > Could there be prefects from each of the 3 years? I was wondering > if Ginny and Ron could be prefects at the same time? > > Any ideas? > > Potioncat Sue here: I think it is absolutely that there are 2 prefects from each year, including 7th. Which would mean there are prefects we have never even heard of. If this is in fact the case then I would assume (dangerous, I know) that there was a person assigned to prefect duty from Percy's 7th year class, as he had taken on the job of Head Boy. that would also mean that Lupin remained a prefect through all three years even though James became Head Boy. And Ginny and Ron could absolutely by prefects at the same time. Ron could be getting it from all directions with Ginny and Hermione wearing the badge! This of course further feeds the fire over how many students there are at Hogwarts. It would seem that perhaps there are approximately 30 Gryffindors in Harry's year which would mean approx. 15 boys and 15 girls. That would mean that the Gryffindor Tower is HUGE! Three dorm rooms per year, per sex; a total of 42 dorm rooms. Which would mean the Griffendor tower has got to either be *very* tall or *very* fat. That would also mean that the house tables hold a total of 210 students. That of course gives JKR her total of approx. 1000 students at Hogwarts. If this is the case I sure wish she would explain why we have heard of so few of them! Sue, who like a previous poster wonders why Draco was made a prefect. Is the Slytherin class from this year *that* bad? From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Sun Feb 22 06:57:13 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 06:57:13 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map/Time Turner in POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91407 > Deb in NJ wrote: > One question (okay, two): > > In POA, since Harry and Hermione repeated the three hours before > Sirius was captured--wouldn't they have appeared on the Marauder's > Map TWICE? When Lupin saw the map in his office, why didn't he see > the Harry & Hermione lurking outside as well as the ones who went > into Hagrid's hut with Ron? > > And, two, since Snape saw the Marauder's Map himself, why didn't he > see Peter Pettigrew on it?? (Unless the Shrieking Shack is off the > edge of the map and Scabbers was already beyond the border when Snape > saw the map? That's the only explanation I can think of, although > don't I remember him seeing Sirius and that's why he knew Lupin was > going "to" him? > > Thanks, and sorry if this has been brought up--the archives are huge > and I could have missed it! > Sawsan here; I was just rereading PoA myself (my honest to goodness favorite of the series) and I was thinking the same thing. The only thing I could think of is that I think the Marauder's Map is limited to the Hogwarts grounds and castle, which possibly excludes the Forest and the Shack. The Shack is in Hogsmeade, even though it is close, it would not be on the map. Just my way of making sense of it. Sawsan From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Feb 22 07:56:50 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 07:56:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's Eyesight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carrilynne" wrote: Carri: > In the scene at MofM after Voldemort flees, "Harry opened his eyes, > saw his glasses lying at the heel of the headless statue... He put > them on and raised his head an inch to find Dumbledore's crooked > nose inches from his own." (pg.816US) > When did his glasses fall off? Did Voldemort's possession cause > them to fall or did Harry's fall make them fall off? Even in this > case, it appears that Voldemort possessed Harry while Harry still > had his glasses on. > > On a different note, why did Harry not see Dumbledore until he put > his glasses on? He was INCHES away from Harry's nose. If Harry > only lifed his head an INCH, then Dumbledore was already somewhere > in his range of vision before putting his glasses on. This appears > to be another hint to the identity of Dumbledore. Or can Harry only > see the Magic world if he has his glasses on? Geoff: Can I first apologise if I repeat things that have been already said. I have just returned from a holiday in Malta and have managed to keep up with about 800 messages which have gone through by skimming through them while using a hotel with an Internet cafe - the Maltese Internet connections can be a bit of a battle at times - and whizzing through several screenfulls after returning home, so I haven't followed threads as closely as I would usually. On this question of Harry's glasses, we are not specifically told when he loses them but we have.. "Then Harry's scar burst open and he knew he was dead: it was pain beyond imagining, pain beyond endurance...... And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creature's coils loosened, the pain was gone; Harry was lying down on the floor, his glasses gone, shivering as though he lay upon ice, not wood...." (OOTP "The Only One He ever feared" pp. 719/20 UK ediiton) How did Harry finish up on the floor? We are not told. But in the agony of Voldermort's possession, he may well have fallen. He is shivering. Have you ever had a violent shivering fit? I have, on odd occasions when I have picked up a flu-like chill or similar symptom and I have known moments when I have been unable to hold onto things because of violent shivering. I suspect his glasses merely fell off as he went over. I also see nothing odd in him not seeing Dumbledore at once. Harry is face downwards.He opens his eyes and sees the glasses were close to him on the floor. He raises his head "a little" (p.720) to see DD inches away. He may well have been half on his side so that he saw the glasses immediately. However. Dumbledore could have approached from the rear so that it wasn't until Harry turned his head a little or even began to shift his position that Dumbledore came into his field of view. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Feb 22 09:16:41 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 09:16:41 -0000 Subject: Gilderoy/Errol/InvisibilityCloak/6thYearQuidditch/CharmsClub/CalmPotion/Nott Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91409 I seem to recall recent mention of "Wizard Baruffio, who said 's' instead of 'f' and found himself on the floor with a buffalo on his chest." I just now noticed that one of the fraudulent aids for OWL preparation mentioned in OoP is "the bottle of Baruffio's Brain Elixir offered to [Harry and Ron] by Ravenclaw sixth year Eddie Carmichael". Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91151 : << given a) that JKR said [Gilderoy Lockhart] is "an exaggeration of someone [she] once knew" [purportedly someone she met at a book show?] >> Someone suggested that GL was based on her ex-husband. Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/91165 : << Even Errol could do it, though he'd choose to fly into a closed window just because he's Errol. >> Movie contamination! That movie really *libelled* poor Errol! In the book, he was NOT a klutz: he flew slowly and collapsed from exhaustion upon arrival *because he was too old*. He should have been retired (used to carry notes just from room to room at the Burrow) but the Weasleys didn't have money to buy a replacement owl. To me, continuing to use Errol is different from continuing to drive an old worn-out break-down car, because an owl is a living being who can feel pain, so continuing to work him past his strength is a form of cruelty to animals, which I hate to think of the dear Weasleys doing. LizVega wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91259 : << After Harry and Co. return from the Chamber of Secrets, doesn't DD tell Ron to send a letter for Hagrid's release? >> I think any involvement of Ron is more movie contamination. It's the chapter called "Dobby's Reward" in CoS, where Harry and Co find Dumbledore and the Weasley parents in McGonagall's office. Dumbledore has gotten rid of everyone else (Mr and Mrs Weasley to take Ginny to hospital wing, McGonagall to the kitchen to order up a feast, Ron to take the amnesiac Lockhart to hospital wing) and had a heart-to-heart with Harry before this bit: <<"What you need, Harry, is some food and sleep. I suggest you go down to the feast, while I write to Azkaban -- we need our gamekeeper back. And I must draft an advertisement for the Daily Prophet, too," he added thoughtfully. "We'll be needing a new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher... Dear me, we do seem to run through them, don't we?" Harry got up and crossed to the door. He had just reached for the handle, however, when the door burst open so violently that it bounced back off the wall. Lucius Malfoy stood there, fury in his face. And cowering behind his legs, heavily wrapped in bandages, was Dobby.>> Elihu wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/91177 : << James had to buy a cloak of invisibily. >> << Q: Where did James get his Invisibility Cloak? JKR: That was inherited from his own father -- a family heirloom! >> from an interview at http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/arti cles/2000/1000-livechat-aol.html which can be found by using The Goat Pad to search for "Invisibility": http://www.angelfire.com/magic/aberforthsgoat/index.html Sue wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr ownups/message/91285 << I am wondering whether Ron will remain Keeper, he may want to be a chaser as well. He always had to keep when his brothers practiced, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't choose something else given the opportunity. (snip) far as the Captain job, I would like to see Harry do it too, but I think he will have bigger fish to fry and the job will go to Ron. >> Personally, I think Ron was *made* to be a Keeper. He's always described as exceptionally tall with long arms and legs: that sounds perfect for stretching to block that Quaffle. His physical type takes after Arthur, Bill, and Percy; I like to fantasize that Arthur was Keeper and Molly was Seeker when they were in school together. Anyway, I really want Ron to be the captain. It means more to him that it would to Harry. For the same reason, I want Ron to be Head Boy (with Hermione as Head Girl). JDR wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr ownups/message/91295 <> Apparently yes: OoP, chapter "Detention with Dolores", when Ron celebrates being chosen as Keeper. Angelina told Harry that "Vicky Frobisher and Geoffrey Hooper both flew better this evening, but ... Vicky's involved in all sorts of Societies, she admitted herself that if training clashed with her Charm Club she'd put Charms first." Jen wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/91296 : << Does the WW consider a potion like the Draught of Peace the equivalent of modern-day Valium, and thus only used if prescibed? Actually, I guess the Calming Potion Hannah Abbott gets from Madam Pomfrey would be more like a tranquilizer. >> I wondered if the Calming Potion (I've been leafing thru OoP almost an hour and not been able to find it to check its name) is the same as the Draught of Peace potion? So the students would be able to make their own instead of going to Madam Pomfrey. Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor Grownups/message/91367 : << But JKR has specifically mentioned Theodore Nott in OoP--*and* his father (who was in the graveyard in GoF and the DoM in OoP, making a singularly unimpressive, almost pitiable, showing in both cases. This man, like a much older Regulus Black, is in too deep and can't get out. So I hope the complex/good Slytherin is Theo, who somehow finds a way to rescue poor old dad. >> I got an impression in GoF that Deatheater Nott was elderly, so I thought maybe he is Theodore Nott's grandfather rather than father (maybe he stayed out of Azkaban by turning in his son (Theo's father)). In GoF, I thought he was an accomplished flatterer, using (big) words to avoid being Crucio'ed like Avery: "The same goes for you, Nott," said Voldemort quietly, as he walked past a stooped figure in Mr Goyle's shadow. "My Lord, I prostrate myself before you, I am your most faithful --" "That will do," said Voldemort." JuHu wondered in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91402 : << why DD or Snape would ever hand Malfoy more bullying power >> Snape choosing someone other than Draco as prefect would contradict his history of favoritism to Draco. If the favoritism is faked to get on Lucius Malfoy's good side and appear to be a truly Voldemortian respecter of the superiority of pure blood, then he can't afford to stop it now. From a_williams1 at pacific.edu Sun Feb 22 09:17:39 2004 From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 01:17:39 -0800 Subject: The tragedy of Ron Message-ID: <003701c3f924$b81923a0$7f420a0a@bre.uop.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 91410 Arya posted: Did you miss the introduction of the Imperius Curse in GoF? I think it's quite clear how a chracter weakness such as a tenfdency to feel inferior, resent his family's poverty ("Why is everything I owe rubbish?!") and to see his best friend as a rival who appears to be chramed to have everything Ron has not might lead to this weakness of Ron's to be used against him. WE all have weaknesses and just like Harry's weakness for saving people and heroics was used against him in OotP, I think we will see Ron's weaknesses turned against him. Of course you'd like to see him overcome this, but, only time will tell. Watching a character fight the temptations of his own weaknesses is the most basic of epic storylines. I'd bet a thousand galleons we'll see it in 6 or 7. Aesha: I don't know if I consider it a 'weakness' that Ron wishes at times that his family had better things. I wish I had more money, but I don't think I'm weak because I wish for it. I don't know if I remember seeing Ron really 'jealous' of Harry... the only thing I can really think of is in GoF, when they weren't speaking- I do think that was fueled by a combination of jealousy and being upset because he thought Harry lied to him. Other than that, I can't really think of a time when I would say Ron was jealous. I don't think that by him saying 'why is everything I own rubbish' that he's at the same time saying he's jealous of Harry. Also, I'm not sure how the imperius works. Is it a kind of brainwashing? Or are you conscious at the time that you're performing certain actions against your will? I don't know... how to say what I'd like. Are we saying that Harry has no (or very few) weaknesses, because he can throw off the curse? (They were imperio-d, right?) Does the imperio work only on people who are 'weak', or is it that it can only be thrown off by those who have some special gift or power? Also, I don't think that if Ron were jealous of Harry that that would effect how he would act under imperio- I think that if Ron had a weakness for chocolate cake, and it was weakness that made one especially susceptable to the curse, that he could be 'programmed' (for lack of a better word) to do anything that the person who was controlling him wanted him to do. Arya: Er, but he does NOT try very hard at all. Percy obviously had ambtion in spades. Even Fred and George had an unquenchable entrepreneurial spirit. Ron, however, doesn't want to take notes in class, he doesn't want to do his own homework (he'd rather copy from Hermione) and he'd much rather play a game than study. I'd say he doesn't try very hard at all to outdo his family and it's even worse it seems because he has Harry and Hermione beside him which means he's very unlikely to outshine either of them in intellect. Aesha: Well, I think I agree that Ron doesn't do anything in particular to try to outshine his brothers, though he might like to be out from under their shadow once in a while. But you saying "... he has H&H beside him which means he's very unlikely to outshine either of them in intellect" bothers me a bit. Of course we know that Hermione is a very bright girl, but she also spends an exorbitant amount of time studying and reading. And Harry seems to spend just about as much time as Ron taking notes in class. I guess what I'm saying is, we know that Hermione is smart, but have we been shown that Harry is of such a superior intellect to Ron? If you want to argue that Harry can do some spells that Ron can't- well, Harry was given special instruction in quite a few of those spells, several of which aren't taught to wizards of their age. On the contrary, I think we've been shown that Ron probably is smart, such as when he won the chess game, but it's just the fact that he (and Harry) doesn't apply himself to his studies that makes him a poor student, not the fact that he's just not smart enough. In Ron's recalling of the match (beginning of Ch 31) you never once hear him mention any of the other players for G-dor until he talks about the look on Cho's face when Ginny got the Snitch. He wasn't a very gracious *team* member there while he gave only the most detailed accounts of *his* prowess in the air. Reminded me an awful lot of his boastful (and exaggerated) recollections of the Second Task in GoF. Aesha: Well, this doesn't bother me too much. I think the reason Ron talks so much about how well he did during the game is *because* he did well during the game. As you said in your post, he wasn't a great keeper, but this game he did a really good job. He was excited; after all his screwing up in previous games, he was able to do a great job in this most crucial of games. And he wasn't the reason the team lost this game; in fact, his improvement helped his team to win. I actually don't think his boasting is that unusual- I think there's probably lots of other athletes who have done the same. ---------------------- How many boys are in Griffyndor in Harry and Ron's year? A lot. Ron is chosen because DD didn't want Harry to do it. This means in DD's eyes Ron's maybe second best, but second best in the eyes of the most powerful wizard in the world? That is not bad. Ron is chosen because DD thinks he is just as capable at being a prefect as Harry would have been. Ron is his replacement in DD's eyes. Wouldn't that fill you with confidence? ---------- Second, the definition of "second-best" means that one is not 'just as capable' as the other. And no, knowing I was a sloppy-secoind choice and "replacement" would not fill in my confidence especially when it's known that I'm the best friend of the first choice. Look at the other choices--Seamus--DD may not have wanted to risk Seamus having authority over Harry and rightfully so as Seamus was not a fan of Harry's. Dean--good friend with Seamus it's always appeared and we don't know a lot about him. Neville--did not have the confidence or experience to subjectively evaluate actions to carry out an authrity figure role. Ron--best friends with Harry and Hermione and who DD could be assured would look to the reliable Hermione for being the "lead" prefect and also who would stand beside Harry at all costs. The overall point is that Ron would NOT have been the Prefect if Harry didn't already have the burden of saving the freaking world. Period. DD knew it, Shaklebolt knew it, Hermione knew it--and I personally threw my book across the room when I read Ron was the Prefect--it was not earned IMHO. Aesha: Well, for one thing, Ron does not know that he was a second choice. As far as he knows, he was the only one wanted for Prefect. And you say that "Hermione knew it" (that Ron wouldn't have been chosen) but how did Hermione know? I kind of would have thought that Harry would have been chosen because he's Dumbledore's favorite. Hermione doesn't know why Ron was chosen instead of Harry. Again, as far as she knows, they felt Ron was the better choice. I feel as though you're also belittling Ron's contribution- if you feel that Harry was a more worthy choice, fine, but Dumbledore chose not to select him. He had to select someone as the other Prefect, and we've not seen anything extraordinary from Dean or Seamus (granted, it's from Harry's view, and he doesn't spend a lot of time with them- but still, they don't seem to be anything out of the ordinary). And of course Neville wouldn't have been chosen. If Ron was chosen because Dumbledore didn't want to burden Harry, I still don't think that Ron was chosen just because Harry and Hermione are his best friends. I do believe that Ron has a right to feel confidence because he's been chosen as Prefect- as the previous poster said, he's second best to one of the most powerful wizards alive, which isn't IMO sloppy seconds, it's something to be proud of. And as I said, I don't believe he was chosen just because of who his friends are- he should be proud that of the 4 leftover Gryffindors, he was the one chosen. As Kingsley Shacklebolt said, it sends the message that Dumbledore has faith in Ron's abilities. Even if he had chosen Seamus, I don't think he would have abused his power ni regards to Harry. Draco did it because he and Harry are enemies; I don't think Seamus considered Harry his enemy, I think he just found his story to be farfetched- and your parents and the media can have a great influence on you. Arya: Ron didn't help in away for Harry to accomplish the 1st Tak ion GoF--where was he? Oh yes, he was busy being jealous and believing Harry to be a liar. I think your memory may be a tad selective. Ron didn't help HArry survive the Dursleys for ten years. Ron didn't help Harry face Quirrelmort (he was left behind on the chess board). Ron was caught behind a pile of rocks and didn't help Harry defeat a Basilisk and Tom Riddle. Ron was in the hospital wing when Harry and Hermione Time Turned and saved Sirius and Buckbeak. Ron wasn't with Harry when he had to be tied to a headstone and have his blood stolen to give rebirth to his parents' murderes. Ron didn't help Harry to face done dozens of Death Eaters and one newly resurrected Voldemort. Ron didn't help Harry learn Occlumency as he should have and Ron was busy spouting off how he liked 'Uranus' and Accio'ing brains to help when Harry went after Bellatrix to avenge Sirius and ended up facing Voldemort--yet again. Ron has never--not once--even seen Voldemort--none of Harry's friends have. Only Dumbledore and Snape might be able to say they've seen Lord Thingy. Aesha: The post that you're responding to here says : "All of Harry's accomplishments have been aided in some way by Ron. And have been through too much to not trust each other and to be jealous of each other." Yes, Harry was alone in the room with Professor Quirrell, but of course Ron helped him get there! Harry wouldn't have gotten to the room without aid. We don't see that Harry is really any good at chess (and who knows, has he ever played? I can't see him and Dudley sitting down for a game). So he may not have gotten past that test without him. It was *because* Ron was 'left behind on the chess board', as you say (which makes it sound like he was just tired and decided to sit it out) that Harry was able to get to the Mirror and collect the stone. Ron was with Harry when they went into the forest to meet Aragog and learn more about the monster terrorizing the castle's inhabitants. Ron's malfunctioning wand- which causes the cave in- was certainly helpfu in keeping their memories from being erased.You say that Ron didn't help Harry learn Occlumency 'as he should have'- I agree that Ron was no help where Occlumency was concerned, but how the heck was he supposed to be? They didn't even know what Occlumency was. You talk about how ROn was out of it when Harry went after Bella- Ron was with him every step of the way, and helped as a guard when Harry had to see if Sirius was at home. Yes, Harry has been alone when he is facing Voldemort- but in most cases, without the help of his friends, he wouldn't have gotten to that point to begin with. I think that's an important point JKR is trying to make- he can't do it completely alone. The final steps may be his to take, but he needs his companions with him for the bulk of the journey. You did say that the one poster had a selective memory... but I think there's a couple things you've forgotten about, too. I don't think anyone was trying to say Ron is the equal hero- but he's been an important and integral part in our hero's journey. I don't think these posts ever said Ron was an equal hero, just that Ron was not a 'tragic figure' who is at any moment going to turn on Harry. Okay, this post is way too long and I'm ending it here. Basically, I just wanted to refute some overly selective arguments that were trying to support Ron as the equal hero to Harry. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From makaidoggie at yahoo.com.sg Sun Feb 22 03:34:54 2004 From: makaidoggie at yahoo.com.sg (=?iso-8859-1?q?melody=20leong?=) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:34:54 +0800 (CST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040222033454.69017.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91411 cubfanbudwoman wrote: > > Whizbang writes: > > I suspect the good slytherin is Tonks. At the prefect party when > > asked if she had been a prefect, she answered that her head of > >house said that she lacked certain necessary qualities. > > Ginny asks, "Like what?" > > "Like the ability to behave myself." Sounds like Snape might > >have been her head of house. Siriusly Snapey Susan says: That's interesting, because when I read that line--"Like the ability to behave myself"--I can easily hear McGonagall saying it, as well! Melz: I agree with Susan... I've never really given it too much thought, but I had assume that Tonks was from Gryfindor. This is only my opinion, but I kind of think Tonks is too... cheerful for a Slytherin. From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 13:35:59 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:35:59 -0000 Subject: HOW many classmates?/ Are there an equal number of students in each house? In-Reply-To: <20040221200844.4899.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, melody leong wrote: > Dorapye wrote: > >" 'It was murder,' said Harry. He could feel himself shaking. He > >had hardly spoken to anyone about this, least of all THIRTY eagerly > >listening classmates. 'Voldemort killed him and you know it.'" > > > >Woah, there! THIRTY classmates? > > Ffred: > > I get the impression from the books that once JKR had said publicly that > there are around 1000 students at Hogwarts, all the references to numbers > (not only this one, which I hadn't noticed before, but also the Yule Ball, > the exam scene, etc) are all written with that in mind. <<< > > > For Harry's year, there should be 5 boys and 5 girls in his house... right? Logically, wouldn't that mean that there are 40 in each year, and around 280 students in the school...? > > Melz dorapye: And this is exactly what I'm referring to...the above quote from OotP *clearly* states that Harry's fifth year DADA class, which never in canon has he had to share with students from other houses, is made of THIRTY students. If we assume they are all Gryffindors, then the next assumption we have to make is that we have *only* met the Gryffindors in Harry's year that he, Ron and Hermione share dorms with and that there are approximately 20 other Gryffindors in Harry's year group whom we have never been introduced to. If you take 30 Gryffindors and assume (a big assumption, I agree, as there is no canon apart from the Sorting Hat claiming to "quarter" the students each year) that all four houses have roughly the same complement of students, etc etc...you get a much more respectable number of students much closer to JKR's "about a 1000" she is quoted as giving. This makes me feel that 30 Gryffindors in Harry's year is correct. However, as Potioncat pointed out (thank you Potioncat!), this then creates a problem with the number of teachers...! But I think I prefer to deal with that little *blip* in the Potterverse than the alternative, which is only 8 Gryffindor students in DADA, History of Magic, Transfiguration, Charms....how can the trio have "private" chats during Charms (GoF) and muck around during Transfiguration (GoF) if they are 3 of only 8 pupils in the class - it would not go unnoticed or unheard by teachers or classmates... As for the 5 boys/5 girls theory that a lot people assume, that then creates a "two missing Gryffindor girls" problem as we only have in canon Hermione, Lavender and Parvati.... And why should we assume, if the Sorting Hat selects students for the different houses based on their personal qualities, that the number of boys and girls should be even in each house? Or the number of students in each house? Might there be more Hufflepuffs? More or less Slytherins? How rare are Ravenclaws? This, of course, has been debated before on this site, so I'll leave this one here... dorapye, realising that she has now written an essay (ineloquently) of her own on the numbers of Gryffindors in Harry's year! Apologies for the length of these posts.. From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 14:00:45 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:00:45 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map/Time Turner in POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > > > Deb in NJ wrote: > > One question (okay, two): > > > > In POA, since Harry and Hermione repeated the three hours before > > Sirius was captured--wouldn't they have appeared on the Marauder's > > Map TWICE? When Lupin saw the map in his office, why didn't he see > > the Harry & Hermione lurking outside as well as the ones who went > > into Hagrid's hut with Ron? > > > > And, two, since Snape saw the Marauder's Map himself, why didn't he > > see Peter Pettigrew on it?? (Unless the Shrieking Shack is off the > > edge of the map and Scabbers was already beyond the border when Snape > > saw the map? That's the only explanation I can think of, although > > don't I remember him seeing Sirius and that's why he knew Lupin was > > going "to" him? > > > > Thanks, and sorry if this has been brought up--the archives are huge > > and I could have missed it! > > > > > Sawsan here; > I was just rereading PoA myself (my honest to goodness favorite of the > series) and I was thinking the same thing. The only thing I could > think of is that I think the Marauder's Map is limited to the Hogwarts > grounds and castle, which possibly excludes the Forest and the Shack. > The Shack is in Hogsmeade, even though it is close, it would not be on > the map. > > Just my way of making sense of it. dorapye: Yeah, this is my way of making sense of it too. When we are first introduced to the map, it is described as showing the "Hogwarts castle and grounds" . Fred and George then go onto explain to Harry where the passage from behind the one-eyed old crone leads...I take this to mean it cannot be deduced from the map because Hogsmeade is not shown on the map... And Deb, I think, yes, Harry and Hermione do appear twice on the map when they are time-travelling. When Snape looks at the map, he is following Lupin's movements, HRH and Scabbers will be off the map because they are in Hogsmeade at the Shrieking Shack at this moment; however Harry and Hermione, if Snape had looked for them, would be visible on the map, on the edge of the Forbidden Forest, with Buckbeak. Snape assumes that Lupin is using the passage to admit Sirius to the school grounds or to meet with him secretly, so Snape dashes after him.... Now when Lupin looks at the map, he spots Peter Pettigrew with Ron and Sirius, going down the Whomping Willow passage, and Harry, Hermione and Crookshanks following them....but does he also notice the Harry and Hermione shown at the edge of the forest? This leads us into the dark territory of the ESE!Lupin theory, I believe....so I'll leave it there! dorapye, who, like Sawsan, loves PoA the best From elihufalk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 09:26:29 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 01:26:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Random questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040222092629.45172.qmail@web21404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91414 Sue wrote: > Fred and George are something else again. Did they get the same >three OWLS or different ones. It makes > sense to me that they would each have concentrated on different > subjects so that together there knowledge would cover a broader > spectrum without having to work so hard. Hitomi answered: >Just some quick thoughts of mine, and I too, liked your idea on the >subject, Carol. I think Fred and George probably either, a) didn't >take the O.W.L.'s seriously, and screwed around durning examination, >and/or b) know tons of "flashy" stuff, in Hermione's words, but not >stuff they're actually supposed to know (and they probably didn't >practice what they're supposed to know, either, but they use >the "flashy" stuff all the time). They're intelligent, though, that >much is obvious. And wonderfully ingenious. My (Elihu's) answer: I think Fred and George only bothered to get any OWLs because they wanted to get into NEWT courses. Some of their jokes are probably based on stuff they learned at school; they wanted to expand on that. They probably never would have gotten any NEWTs, as their tests aren't the formal ones, but on how well they can do in buisness. Elihu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elihufalk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 09:49:26 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 01:49:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Potter for President" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040222094926.5141.qmail@web21411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91415 Robert Jones wrote: This is not an important question, but I was wondering about this. In Book 1, chapter 11, for Harry's first Quidditch match, Ron and Hermione make a banner saying "Potter for President!" President of what? What office in the school system or government is "president"? It's in the UK version and not just the American version. Bobby I think that for some reson, the students like to think of the Quiddich players who will help their houses win in terms of political leaders. Note "Weasley is our King" from OP. As to the use of the word president, not King, Minister etc., I think this has to do with the letter P, which I intend to write about later. Elihu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elihufalk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 11:09:42 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 03:09:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] AK and victims' remains In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040222110942.21697.qmail@web21411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91416 "oogems7" wrote: > Harry is found holding Cedric's dead body in the maze. Julie: I have been away for a few days, so I was catching up on some posts of interest. I read this right after reading about the posts about James and Lilly's remains. The AK could not have cremated them, or Harry would not be holding Cedric's dead body. He would not have had a body to hold onto while going back through the portkey. Do we have any canon evidence, other than Petunia's "got herself blown up" comment that there actually were no remains of James and Lilly? Regardless of the answer "yes remains" "no remains" my question is this: Any speculations as to how this would play into the plot of the septology? It could be we don't kow because we don't need to know...it has no plot value. Just curious. My (Elihu's) answer: The Avada Kadavra Curse is not what blew up the remains of James and Lily. The deflected curse on Harry seems to have done that, in my opinion. Look at the following description: A particular wizard [Lord Voldemort] believes that Harry Potter will be a danger to him [as a result of the prophecy]. He attempts to use a spell he never failed with [Avada Kadavra] on someone else and [afterwords] on Harry. The spell ordinarily has no effect on the surroundings, just incorrectable damage [death] to the intended victem. However, the spell caused distruction of the surroundings [the house became rubble], and temperaryily affected the wizard [Voldemort] in a way simalar to that intended on Harry. [13 years later, Voldemort is completely back to life]. Now I'll repeat the same thing, changing only the sqare brackets, and it will describe a different event: A particular wizard [Gilderoy Lockhart] believes that Harry Potter will be a danger to him [as a result knowledge which Harry now had]. He attempts to use a spell he never failed with [memmory charm,] on someone else and [at the same time] on Harry. The spell ordinarily has no effect on the surroundings, just incorrectable damage [memmory loss] to the intended victem. However, the spell caused distruction of the surroundings [part of the tunnel caved in], and temperaryily affected the wizard [Lockhart] in a way simalar to that intended on Harry. [2 1/2 years later, he's starting to gain back his memmory]. I think the similarities are no coincidence. Is this part of the charm Lily left on Harry? Elihu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From helenhorsley at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 14:23:52 2004 From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:23:52 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: <20040222033454.69017.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, melody leong wrote: > cubfanbudwoman wrote: > > > Whizbang writes: > > > I suspect the good slytherin is Tonks. At the prefect party > when > > > asked if she had been a prefect, she answered that her head of > > >house said that she lacked certain necessary qualities. > > > Ginny asks, "Like what?" > > > "Like the ability to behave myself." Sounds like Snape might > > >have been her head of house. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan says: > That's interesting, because when I read that line--"Like the ability > to behave myself"--I can easily hear McGonagall saying it, as well! > > Melz: > > I agree with Susan... I've never really given it too much thought, but I had assume that Tonks was from Gryfindor. > > This is only my opinion, but I kind of think Tonks is too... cheerful for a Slytherin. dorapye: To Whizbang, I agree it does sound like something Snape might say, however, we know that Tonks's dad Ted Tonks was Muggleborn, so would she have been selected for Slytherin, as a half-blood? To Siriusly Snapey Susan and Melz, yes, I agree, this could equally be a McGonagall quote, making Tonks a Gryffindor. But JKR deliberately leave us guessing. I think the Good Slytherin (I too hope to see one emerge in the next book) will need to be in Harry's generation, at the school, in order for the impact of a good Slyth to be felt personally by Harry (a compatriot of Draco on his side). Like Carol, and others, I'm betting it will be Theo Nott, just to make things more complicated and challenging for Harry and the readers. dorapye From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Sun Feb 22 15:20:42 2004 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:20:42 -0000 Subject: HOW many classmates?/ Are there an equal number of students in each house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91418 To muddy up the issue some more: in Book 1 in their first broom flying class, there are only twenty brooms set up on the ground for both the combined class of first year Gryffindors and first year Slytherins and Madam Hotch tells them each to take one. Bobby From pfsch at gmx.de Sun Feb 22 15:31:33 2004 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:31:33 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_book__six_and_seven_clich=E9s?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91419 Hi there! My hopes and dreads. Only a little brain storming, perhaps more to come. THE GOOD Ron or Harry ending up with Hermione. Harry ending up with some minor character including Ginny and Luna. OBHWF. I like thinking about who ends up with whom, though I would appreciate nearly any constellation of the above. Vampires, I'm rather anxious to see some. Though I don't think that'd be Snape, I wouldn't hate JKR for making him one. DD dying. I agree it would make an interesting turn in the story though very sad. Showdown at the Potters' grave. SPEW evolving. Hearing a third prediction from Trelawney. Complex, "good" Slytherin (other than Snape, I mean). THE BAD Harry dying/Harry=martyr. For me, it would mean that LV wins. Sirius alive. Though I wouldn't bother Sirius paintings or things like that. Harrys parents somehow alive. Though I wouldn't mind paintings. AND: THE UGLY Ron=DD or any other time turning adventures like that. Bye Anatol (www.mondratte.de) From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Feb 22 16:02:08 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 22 Feb 2004 16:02:08 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1077465728.23.82173.m2@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91420 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, February 22, 2004 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 16:47:53 2004 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:47:53 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map/Time Turner in POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91421 Deb in NJ wrote: >>>And, two, since Snape saw the Marauder's Map himself, why didn't he see Peter Pettigrew on it?? (Unless the Shrieking Shack is off the edge of the map and Scabbers was already beyond the border when Snape saw the map?<<< Sawsan replied: >>The only thing I could think of is that I think the Marauder's Map is limited to the Hogwarts grounds and castle, which possibly excludes the Forest and the Shack. The Shack is in Hogsmeade, even though it is close, it would not be on the map.<< dorapye agreed: >Yeah, this is my way of making sense of it too. When we are first introduced to the map, it is described as showing the "Hogwarts castle and grounds" . Fred and George then go onto explain to Harry where the passage from behind the one-eyed old crone leads...I take this to mean it cannot be deduced from the map because Hogsmeade is not shown on the map...< KathyK, being a very bad girl and not finishing her packing says: You three are all correct. Your way of making sense of it is actually stated right in canon. Snape says to Lupin (PoA "The Servant of Lord Voldemort," US ed., pg 358) "I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight." From this, we can deduce two things. The first is that the Shrieking Shack, located in Hogsmeade, is not plotted on the Marauder's Map. The second thing we can understand from Snape's statement is Snape *knew* no one was in the Shrieking Shack except for Lupin because none of the others in the Shack appeared on the Map. Snape strongly suspected Sirius would be there. He's suspected Lupin all year of helping Sirius and jumped at the chance to confirm his suspicions. Why else would Lupin be going there? He doesn't need to hide out in there now that he's got the Wolfsbane Potion. Was he attacked with a sudden rush of nostalgia so he decided to run off without taking his potion? Absolutely not. Snape knows this. Snape is certain Sirius is there. As for the second part of the discussion, which I so kindly snipped out of there, I'm going to refer you to one of bboy_mn's posts. He's got a very logical and very convincing theory as to why Lupin missed the second Harry and Hermione on the Map without making Lupin ESE (although I *love* that theory). Since I'm not actually supposed to be spending my time here at the moment, I'll just give you this first link I found. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/88699 Have a wonderful day, KathyK, who will be disappearing for real now From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Sun Feb 22 18:03:01 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:03:01 -0000 Subject: Why does love have to be bad/sappy/ugly? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91422 We have all discussed this in recent threads where everyone gags themselves with a spoon (ha ha) whenever it is mentioned that Harry may use love as the final weapon against LV. I am not a sappy person myself, I admit, but I don't see anything wrong with the love thing. When I think about it, I think about Expecto Patronum. In order for the spell to work, a happy thought must be behind it. Harry works up through many happy moments thinking of special events. Each time the spell is cast except when Harry doesn't consciously think about it, we hear about another happy moment Harry is using. The only times we don't hear about the exact thought was at the Quiddich match and across the pond. These are the 2 times Harry manages to do the most powerfull patronuses - when he doesn't have to conjure up an exact image, but instead taps into his emotional reserve. I think that this may lead to the same weapon that could defeat LV. It could also be why we learned so much about how to cast Expecto Patronum. We all know that JKR doesn't tell us things we won't need later on, therefore, I conclude that the mechanics for putting together the patronus will be needed later on. I am hoping that Harry will learn about how to put together spells in his NEWT classes. He will have more detailed studies over the next 2 years and if he learns how to build his own spell and he knows that his ability to feel emotion for those around him is his greatest strength, then maybe he can build his own spell with those tools to defeat LV. I don't condsider that sappy. Kristen From tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 18:22:23 2004 From: tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:22:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many prefects per house? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91423 > Sue here: > I think it is absolutely that there are 2 prefects from each year, > including 7th. Which would mean there are prefects we have never > even heard of. If this is in fact the case then I would assume > (dangerous, I know) that there was a person assigned to prefect duty > from Percy's 7th year class, as he had taken on the job of Head Boy. > that would also mean that Lupin remained a prefect through all three > years even though James became Head Boy. And Ginny and Ron could > absolutely by prefects at the same time. Ron could be getting it > from all directions with Ginny and Hermione wearing the badge! I'd always thought that two prefects were chosen from each during the 5th year, and from the small pool of 8, a head boy and girl would be chosen. However, your explanation does explain how James became Head Boy and gives some support to the theories that Harry may follow in his father's footsteps. I would differ in opinion only to say that it's quite possible that the head boy and girl retain their positions as prefects as well. This raises one niggling question, though. If this is true, then what will we all do when Harry isn't selected for prefect next year? ~Ali From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 22 18:29:24 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:29:24 -0000 Subject: Making Draco a prefect WAS Re: How many prefects per house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91424 Sue wrote: > who like a previous poster wonders why Draco was made a > prefect. Is the Slytherin class from this year *that* bad? Probably not. I'd reckon the mental equation went something like: X = Discipline problems resulting from making Draco a prefect - (ability to control him by threatening to *remove* prefect status + side-benefit that Lucius Malfoy will regard Snape 'very highly'). Y = (Discipline problems resulting from any other prefect trying to control a mightily annoyed non-prefect Draco multiplied by percentage chance of new fifth year male prefect asking to resign because Crabb and Goyle keep breaking his wand and stuffing his head down the toilet) + side-effect that Lucius Malfoy will see Snape as having 'gone over to Dumbledore *entirely*. If X is less than Y, make Draco a prefect. You'll have fewer problems that way. [grin] Pip!Squeak From siskiou at msn.com Sun Feb 22 18:57:13 2004 From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:57:13 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] AK and victims' remains In-Reply-To: <20040222110942.21697.qmail@web21411.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040222110942.21697.qmail@web21411.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1838753750.20040222105713@msn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91425 Hi, Sunday, February 22, 2004, 3:09:42 AM, Elihu wrote: > A particular wizard [Gilderoy Lockhart] believes that Harry Potter > will be a danger to him [as a result knowledge which Harry now > had]. He attempts to use a spell he never failed with [memmory > charm,] on someone else and [at the same time] on Harry. The spell > ordinarily has no effect on the surroundings, just incorrectable > damage [memmory loss] to the intended victem. However, the spell > caused distruction of the surroundings [part of the tunnel caved > in], and temperaryily affected the wizard [Lockhart] in a way > simalar to that intended on Harry. [2 1/2 years later, he's > starting to gain back his memmory]. You mean, Lockhart using Ron's damaged wand had nothing to do with the cave-in and the spell backfiring on Lockhart, and it was instead some type of special protection in Harry? I always thought the above event had nothing to do with Harry's powers or protection, and everything with Lockhart using Ron's broken wand, which has been seen to malfunction in similar ways before. It "could" be a cover-up, but I don't really think so. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at msn.com Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Feb 22 19:07:58 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:07:58 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HOW many classmates?/ Are there an equal number of students in each house? References: <1077439156.6491.45228.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001301c3f977$2f97ae40$5e4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 91426 > Dorapye wrote: > >Woah, there! THIRTY classmates? > Melz wrote: > For Harry's year, there should be 5 boys and 5 girls in his house... right? Logically, wouldn't that mean that there are 40 in >each year, and around 280 students in the school...? That's the implication that you get from the earlier books. Then someone asked JKR how many students there were at Hogwarts, and she replied "about 1000". This then meant that all the earlier sums didn't add up. Some people have wondered whether Harry's year was particularly small (because of DE depradations) or whether far more students were sorted into Hufflepuff. But I just think that JKR hadn't been explicit about the numbers before, and since committing herself to 1000, she's been consistent with her descriptions. The actual numbers in the first 5 years would be larger than 1000/7 of course, because you have to assume that a certain number leave after taking OWLs, so that years 6 and 7 will be smaller than years 1-5 Some of the implications are difficult to deal with, though. If you've got 30 per house, then some of the professors (Snape, Hagrid, Sprout) are teaching classes of 60! Not even a teacher in a sink comprehensive has to deal with that... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From tim at marvinhold.com Sun Feb 22 19:13:55 2004 From: tim at marvinhold.com (Tim) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:13:55 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map/Time Turner in POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "chappysmom" wrote: > One question (okay, two): > > In POA, since Harry and Hermione repeated the three hours before > Sirius was captured--wouldn't they have appeared on the Marauder's > Map TWICE? When Lupin saw the map in his office, why didn't he see > the Harry & Hermione lurking outside as well as the ones who went > into Hagrid's hut with Ron? > > And, two, since Snape saw the Marauder's Map himself, why didn't he > see Peter Pettigrew on it?? (Unless the Shrieking Shack is off the > edge of the map and Scabbers was already beyond the border when Snape > saw the map? That's the only explanation I can think of, although > don't I remember him seeing Sirius and that's why he knew Lupin was > going "to" him? > > Thanks, and sorry if this has been brought up--the archives are huge > and I could have missed it! > > Deb in NJ Do check out the link KathyK provides to bboy's post it is excellent. I can add one canon data point. If you go to the scene where Harry first looks at the map, you will notice thet JKR wrote something like ( I don't have book 3 with me right now): Harry looked at the map and a dot labled Harry Potter appeared. She did not write that he looked for and found the dot labled Harry Potter, it "appeared" implying it was not there until after he started looking at the map. Tim From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 22 19:19:06 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:19:06 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91428 snip > I think the Good Slytherin (I too hope to see one emerge in the next > book) will need to be in Harry's generation, at the school, in order > for the impact of a good Slyth to be felt personally by Harry (a > compatriot of Draco on his side). Like Carol, and others, I'm > betting it will be Theo Nott, just to make things more complicated > and challenging for Harry and the readers. > > dorapye Why not a group of good Slytherins? It seems like we are being wound up in several ways. First: the number of students in the school. As other posters have stated it is looking more and more like there may be approx. 30 per year, per house to make the other systems function properly. Second: We do not know what houses all of these adults are in. We only have Hagrid's assertion that only Slytherins go "bad". We have confirmation on a few adults from JKR, but she seems to deliberately withhold the information (ie. Tonks) I expect Harry to be genuinely shocked when he finds out the background of the people in the Order and the reasons they are helping to defeat Voldemort. He is finally getting to the age when everything is becoming a lot more grey, no more easy black and white. When that happens all of these A-typical Slytherins (and Gryffindors, for that matter) will begin to surface at Hogwarts and outside. Sue, who thinks Moody may have been hoping Harry would ask some questions when he showed him the picture at Grimauld Place. From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 22 19:30:03 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:30:03 -0000 Subject: How many prefects per house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91429 ---snip > > Sue here: > > I think it is absolutely that there are 2 prefects from each year, > > including 7th. Which would mean there are prefects we have never > > even heard of. If this is in fact the case then I would assume > > (dangerous, I know) that there was a person assigned to prefect duty > > from Percy's 7th year class, as he had taken on the job of Head Boy. > > that would also mean that Lupin remained a prefect through all three > > years even though James became Head Boy. snip> Ali: This raises one niggling question, though. If this is true, then what will > we all do when Harry isn't selected for prefect next year? > > ~Ali In my theory, James would never have been a prefect. Lupin would have been the prefect for their year through yrs. 5,6, and 7. Then, due to some extrordinary circumstance, James was made Head Boy in their 7th year without the prefect background. By the way, if they only chose prefects every three years, there would be no hope of Fred or George being one unless Percy lost his badge. Molly would not have wanted that for any of her children. Just my speculation. Sue From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Feb 22 19:29:33 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:29:33 +0000 Subject: It's not easy... Message-ID: <71397B06-656D-11D8-BA77-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91430 It's not easy being an HP fan. Remember the febrile excitement of last mid-summer? The site was in near meltdown from anticipation; the rumours were rampant, hints had been dropped and the adrenalin seeping out under the door and was causing problems with the neighbour's cat. The assault on the local bookstore was planned with meticulous care, taking into consideration such factors as timing (how early?); likely obstacles that must be swept aside (small children or Johnny-come-lately enthusiasts i.e. anyone starting the books after you did); slow and/or dim shop assistants and a maxed-out credit card. Eventually emerging triumphant and gaining the sanctuary of a locked room well suited as an exemplar for sensory deprivation studies, we begin. Hours later (or days, depending on the voracity of your reading habits) we emerge blinking in the sunlight of a changed world. Sort of. In some ways. Perhaps. Did you, like me (whisper it down a well at midnight if you must), have a nagging feeling of deja vu? Hadn't the same events played themselves out three years previously? Not just the physical actions of an aficionado desperate to savour fresh canon hot off the presses, but the mind state afterwards when the nuances had been dissected and the conundrums considered. Because the same old questions remained. Frustration. The necessary acceptance that no great revelation was or will be made between these covers. A few more pieces of the jig-saw handed over but with little or no indication of where in the puzzle they'll eventually fit. Is this a bit of background or is it a key piece? Who knows? Nobody. Oh, we guess constantly. That's what attracted me to this site in the first place. I'd started reading the books back in 2000, years before signing up with HPfGU, but eventually got bored with rehashing my own theories and fancied finding out the ways in which others too were getting it wrong. And get it wrong we do; the devastation in TBAY after the howling maelstrom of Hurricane Jo is proof enough. Even the survivors of that trauma are not certain of an eventual safe harbour - most of them were untouched solely because their proud banners were flying in backwaters that Jo did not touch this time round. Few if any of the theoretical constructs were actually strengthened or confirmed by the last volume; they are in abeyance, to be put to the test the next time the wind blows. And that is mostly the point. We are learning things at the same rate as Harry, so confirmation (of theory) and conclusion (of the series) will be heading for the finish line neck and neck so far as most of us are concerned. The early birds, that happy band that built the site into what it is today, cobbled together (I beg your pardon - after much thought and analysis carefully crafted) most of the major theories - MAGIC DISHWASHER, LOLLIPOPS, TOADMASTER etc, etc. Dozens of 'em covering just about every aspect of the life and hard times of one H. Potter. And after 5 of 7 books we're no further forward in determining their accuracy let alone the ultimate resolution of the saga. JKR is a smart author - she throws us tid-bits; little snippets that get us in an uproar but are not exactly crucially important. Things like the Prophesy. It doesn't really matter, it's a distraction. The only person it identifies is the Dark Lord, the rest of it could have any number of explanations but with the information available we are totally unable to predict which it is. Note that *no* explanation offered so far gives us an unambiguous and clear translation. And my word, an awful lot of us have tried. An author doesn't resort to that level of impenetrable obscurity to help her readers, it's for confusion, obfuscation, to mislead, to distract. Naturally that doesn't stop us; we chase after it like greyhounds after the mechanical rabbit, and just like the greyhounds we ain't gonna get it. Unless he turns out to not to have been what he appeared Sirius is probably yet another distraction. Me, I hope he was a fraud, it would provide some meaning for having him cluttering up the plot if it means that tales of vile betrayal surface later. Oh, I know that many of his fans claim that he was necessary for Harry's 'emotional development', but if that's the case why has the psychological prop been kicked away just when it looks as if things are going to get *really* tough for Harry? I have problems accepting that most of one book and bits of two others are devoted to the distraction of supposed psychological health in what is a fantasy adventure. Nah, HP isn't another of those boring books where cod psychology is used as a cover-up for lack of plotting skills. Can't be. Anyway, those who have dipped into my past posts are well aware of my views on Sirius - the quote "The more he protested his honour, the faster we counted the spoons" might have been invented for him. But I digress. What is truly amazing is not how much we know but how little. Great gaping gaps all over the place; and each new volume only seems to emphasise our lack of knowledge. Of all the key characters only two seem to be regarded with general approbation - Lily and Hermione (and I did my best to rectify that with 77800 - Lily-Snape. An AGGIE? and 66428 TBAY - Grand Opening! New Establishment! So far as I'm concerned they're probably all guilty of something - another facet of my kind and generous nature.) All the other characters seem to attract doubts, niggles, reservations, suspicions. Why? Because we suspect (or know) that information is being with-held. The reason there are so many theories extant is because we are stumbling around in the dark, we don't *know* anything and are reduced to speculation. How can anyone write 5 books and give nothing important away? It's inhuman. It's sadistic. And guess what? I strongly suspect that I'll be experiencing deja vu (again!) after the next book too. I'll still be asking the same questions. Does anyone believe that JKR will disclose anything important until she absolutely must? Me neither. It'll all be in book 7 - another, what? 4 years? Meantime I'll be knocking my pipes out attempting to make sense of it all and trying to reach some sort of conclusion. And I'll probably get it wrong anyway. Like I said - it's not easy being an HP fan. Kneasy From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Sun Feb 22 19:37:08 2004 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:37:08 -0000 Subject: HOW many classmates?/ Are there an equal number of students in each house? In-Reply-To: <001301c3f977$2f97ae40$5e4e6751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91431 Some more thoughts on the number of students: (1) I saw an episode of "Liberty Kids" a few weeks back -- a cartoon show in USA about the American Revolution. If you believe that show, George Washington only had about two dozen soldiers at Valley Forge. I guess the animators didn't want to bother drawing thousands of soldiers. And JKR might be the same: she doesn't want to clutter up the story by mentioning every name in the Sorting Hat ceremoney or having to give each student some lines by having Harry interact with every student in his class. Of course, this makes one limitation on JKR: it would now be hard to try to introduce any new Gryffindors in Harry's class -- like reading in Book 6 "Harry said hello to Tom Jones, a Gryffindor in his class that he hadn't noticed for five years." (2) If the Sorting Hat has to sort 120 to 150 students each year, the ceremony is going to take a really long time. If each student takes an average of only half a minute to have their name called, go to the chair, pick up the hat, put it on, have the Sort Hat do whatever it does, take off the hat, put it down, and leave, then the ceremony would take two hours. I don't think I could sit through that, and I'm not an 11 or 12 year old kid. From subhash_san at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 17:13:42 2004 From: subhash_san at yahoo.com (Subhash) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 17:13:42 -0000 Subject: The Secret of Severus Snape- My Theory (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91432 Today we will be talking about Snape and only Snape. The most interesting character in Harry Potter Series. I have a lot to say on him today. SO, sit back and enjoy...... Severus Snape, Death-Eater Snape, Prof.Severus Snape, only Snape and Severus Snape of Order of the Phoenix Society. See how JKR has shaded this man with many colours. What's his true colour we don't even know. But we are anxious to know. About 16 years ago, somethig miracoulus happened and Voldemort lost his all powers. 16 years ago, Severus Snape was a death eater. 16 years ago, that former death- eater entered Hogwarts bearing a designation of a Professor-The Potions Master Snape. 16 years ago, Lily Potter and James Potter had died to save Harry's life bacause Harry Potter is the one. In the chapter Pensieve, we came to know that Snape turned his back on his master just before Harry's death. Dumbledore had said this while defending Snape in front of Wizard Court. Whenever Harry asks Dumbledore about the secret agreement between him and Snape, Dumbledore always refuses to answer by saying"That is a matter between me and Prof.Snape" Even Sirius and Lupin have been wondering about Snape and Dumbledore bond few years ago. To know this, we need to ask one question to ourself and that is why did Snape turn his back on Voldemort? You just can't hand over your resignation letter to Voldemort. Either it is a service of a lifetime or else suffering and death. There is nowhere to go other than this. So why Snape took such bold step? The possible and the only one reason seems to me at this point is that of a murder of his most cared about person by Voldemort. That death shocked him to such an extent that he came to know Voldemort's true colours. Remember what Sirius had said about his brother? His brother Regulus Black joined death eaters in young age. Everyone(Pure Blood Families) thought that he is doing all this for erradication of Muggleborns and Mudbloods. But as times passed, all these pure blood families came to know about his true goal. Voldemort wanted to rule the wizarding world. Killing mudbloods didn't matter to him any more as he was the dictator of whole wizarding world. What I think is that Snape also had joined Voldemort to erradicate all the Mudbloods from wizrading world. He was feeling proud of doing this. But after Voldemort started to show his true colours. What must have happened after this is the death of a person Snape most cared about. Thus, Snape came to know about Voldemort real face. But he was still in death-eaters' circle making his mind whether to leave Voldemort or not. But he wanted to revenge of the murder of his beloved person Voldemort had committed. During that time only, he also came to know about the prophecy made about the boy who could be Voldemort's murderer. He came to know that Harry Potter is that boy. He seemed very close to Voldemort as he was highly intelligent, a good planner of the game. But people on that side of the wall were not knowing about the fact that Potters were on the target. So, what Snape thought that this was only his chance to take his revenge on Voldemort. But he also knew that he alone can't get harm Dumbledore on his own. But he perfectly knew that Dumbledore was the one Lord had ever feared. He had known this by spending more and more time with Voldemort and knowing him and his thinking. Snape was Voldemort's brain. He was the most faithful servant of Voldemort according to me. But he had to find Dumbledore and tell him to protect Harry Potter. He knew that Dumbledore has his ways of protecting. He knew that Voldemort doesn't consider ancient magic as effective. He knew the strength and weaknesses of Voldemort. One can say that Voldemort overtrusted him and Snape capitalised on that. He contacted Dumbledore and told him everything he needed to know and not more than that.But first he had to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore since Dumbledore wasn't going to trust him by hearing reasons such as change of mind by death of Snape's most cared about person. He proved his loyalty towards Dumbledore by giving true and important information about Voldemort's plans day by day. He was using Dumbledore to get his revenge on Voldemort. He was moving the pauns on the chessboard. Dumbledore was only his chance. His plan was to make that Dumbledore becomes greatest bulley in the ground and after Voldemort's downfall, he was going to join Dumbledore. He knew that after downfall of Voldemort, Dumbledore wouldn't kill him. He knew he'll leave him. But he also knew that even if Voldemort got vanquished by Dumbledore, he'll come back some day again. But at the time of Voldemort's rebirth , Voldemort will have to reunite all death-eaters and thus he may not be 100% like the former King Voldemort. So, he can't leave Dumbledore even if Dumbledore decides to leave him. This was the master plan of a mastermind. Days were passing by and Snape was finding more difficult to play this double role. On one hand, he had to show his loyalty towards Voldemort by implementing the tasks he had ordered and on the other hand, he also had to show his faithfulness towards Dumbledore. The instinct of getting the revenge on Voldemort was so intense that it forced him to help Dumbledore day by day. And then something happened, something which Snape wouldn't have controlled by himself. The prophecy was made and one death-eater heard it partially and informed it instantly to Voldemort. If Snape would have been eavesdropper, he wouldn't have let this happen. He would have lied that he hadn't heard anything. He also possessed the skill of legilimency and because of this he would have lied even to Voldemort. But as he wasn't there the night prophecy was made, he failed to control the situation. Because of this event, first Dumbledore started loosing faith on Snape and second is that Snape came to know that Dumbledore is not that man he was looking for.He realised one fact that Dumbledore can't kill Voldemort. His plan had failed to great extent, he was trapped between Dumbledore and Voldemort. Where to go? What about his revenge on Voldemort? But again that instinct of revenge kept him alive and forced him again to opt for Dumbledore because Dumbledore was the one who knew the full contents of the prophecy and because of this he had more chance of getting answer to the prophecy than Voldemort. Voldemort was also trying hard to know that person. But in the end, Voldemort got the answer more quicker than Dumbledore. As soon as Snape came to know about Voldemort targetting Potters, he instantly informed Dumbledore and insisted him on sending Potters into hiding place. Snape had known Potters for a long time. He had to forget his rivalry because Harry had proved to be his last chance.Dumbledore used fidelius charm to hide the Potters from Voldemort's grip.He appointed Sirius as Potters' secret-keeper. Snape was so sure that Dumbledore would protect the boy at any cost. Boy's admission at Hogwarts was certain. Once the boy grew older and joined hogwarts, he would be ready to face Voldemort. But till that time, survival of Harry Potter was necessary for both Snape and Dumbledore. But again, something worse happened, unknowingly to Dumbledore, Sirius chose Wormtail as Potters' secret-keeper and that did the damage. Voldemort had a team of spies, death-eaters. Voldemort used to keep such level of secrecy that one death-eater wasn't knowing who the other DEs and what are they doing for Voldemort? Wormtail was working for Voldemort and even Snape failed to know this fact. Thus, he was unable to stop Voldemort from finding Potters. But atlast and fortunately, Snape got his chance of getting revenge on Voldemort .Voldemort lost his powers, the curse rebounded, Harry Potter defeated Voldemort for the first time.The situation suddenly changed and Dumbledore became the greatest bulley in the ground. Death-eaters were caught, Ministry of Magic came into power. Snape was more than happy for achieving the success.On the basis given by Dumbledore, Snape got cleared of all charges. No death- eaters suspected him because they all were also trying to find ways to get themselves free. They were all assuming that Snape had fooled Dumbledore to get him free. Snape started pretending that like other death-eaters he was also binding his time.He was telling DEs that no sooner Voldemort come back he would rejoin his service. Snape is a genious and there is no doubt about. His plan had indeed succeeded fortunately. And now he knew where his loyalty would lie. He knew that Voldemort will be back some day again, so he can't leave Dumbledore. He had to find some safest place to stay and hide where Voldmeort can't get his hands on him. And he got it; Hogwarts was that place. He insisted on working for a post of a teacher at Hogwarts and he got the job.Snape was inside the castle now; safe and very much relaxed. I have told you what we didn't know and the rest we all know. And the person who Snape cared about the most probably could be his mother, father rather than Lily Potter. There is a mention of a two person which haven't been named in the incident where Harry gets into Snape's memory for a short time and sees a women and a boy and a man. We know who that boy is and the other two people could just be Snape's parents. JKR always gives a hint, remember. So keep hunting!!!!!!!! Till then Goodbye and Have a nice day ahead....... From kreneeb at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 19:15:41 2004 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:15:41 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91433 dorapye says... >I think the Good Slytherin (I too hope to see one emerge in the next >book) will need to be in Harry's generation, at the school, in order >for the impact of a good Slyth to be felt personally by Harry (a >compatriot of Draco on his side). Like Carol, and others, I'm >betting it will be Theo Nott, just to make things more complicated >and challenging for Harry and the readers. Kitten says... I agree I would like the Good slytherin to be in Harry generation, more so, in Harry's year. I am rooting for Blaise Zabini, not because of his name. Its the fact the we don't know anything about Zabini, (s)he's a perfect clean slate, we don't even know if (s)he goes to the bathroom sitting or standing. Theo Nott on the other hand has a lot of barriers that Harry has to get past. I can see Theo walking up to Harry, and Harry saying "yeah, your dad's the lousy death eater right?" Harry has this stereotype against slytherins, and He is also extremely stubborn. Harry would write-off Theo (if he hasn't already) as a Evil slytherin before the first Hello, that is Harry's way of thinking, its either black or white, good or death eater. Yes it would be more complicating, therefore more entertaining to read, but IMO it would be completely out of character for Harry to "see the light" and become best friends with a DE's son. I do believe that JKR has more in store for Theo, but if JKR makes him the good Slytherin IMO she might as well have Harry and Draco, with out stretched arms, running through a field of golden Yellow sunflowers towards each other. (Great! now I won't ever get that image from head)Theo could be the most gracious, pleasant, who always helps old lady's cross the street, person in the world I just don't see Harry becoming his friend. Kitten Who has lots of time on her hands since her evil plan to dominate the world was thwarted, by a couple of seventeen year old kids... Darn those meddlin' teenagers From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 20:09:06 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:09:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's protection and Ron's wand (WAS Re: AK and victims' remains) In-Reply-To: <1838753750.20040222105713@msn.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91434 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > Sunday, February 22, 2004, 3:09:42 AM, Elihu wrote: > > > A particular wizard [Gilderoy Lockhart] believes that Harry Potter > > will be a danger to him [as a result knowledge which Harry now > > had]. He attempts to use a spell he never failed with [memmory > > charm,] on someone else and [at the same time] on Harry. The spell > > ordinarily has no effect on the surroundings, just incorrectable > > damage [memmory loss] to the intended victem. However, the spell > > caused distruction of the surroundings [part of the tunnel caved > > in], and temperaryily affected the wizard [Lockhart] in a way > > simalar to that intended on Harry. [2 1/2 years later, he's > > starting to gain back his memmory]. > Susanne wrote: > You mean, Lockhart using Ron's damaged wand had nothing to > do with the cave-in and the spell backfiring on Lockhart, and > it was instead some type of special protection in Harry? > > I always thought the above event had nothing to do with > Harry's powers or protection, and everything with Lockhart > using Ron's broken wand, which has been seen to malfunction > in similar ways before. > > It "could" be a cover-up, but I don't really think so. Bookworm: What an interesting connection. I never thougth about connecting the two scenes. Elihu, I have to agree that there is usually something to JKR's 'coincidences'. Susanne, the other times we have seen Ron's wand misfire, it usually redirected the spell onto himself - slugs being the most dramatic example. It gave Ron trouble, but I don't remember it causing destruction. It may be that Ron's wand caused the memory charm to hit Lockhart instead, but that Harry's mysterious protection is what caused the tunnel to collapse. So maybe Petunia's complaint that leaving Harry alone would mean the house would collapse isn't so far off after all. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 20:19:15 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:19:15 -0000 Subject: How many prefects per house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91435 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > ---snip > > > Sue here: > > > I think it is absolutely that there are 2 prefects from each year, > > > including 7th. Which would mean there are prefects we have never > > > even heard of. > Ali: > This raises one niggling question, though. If this is true, then > what will > > we all do when Harry isn't selected for prefect next year? > > > > ~Ali > > Sue: > By the way, if they only chose prefects every three years, there > would be no hope of Fred or George being one unless Percy lost his > badge. Molly would not have wanted that for any of her children. Bookworm: As I read the stories, I thought that prefects are chosen at the beginning of the 5th year. That means there are six prefects in head house. Whether or not a new prefect is chosed if one is promoted to headboy or girl isn't clear. So, in answer to Ali's question, Harry won't be selected for prefect in the 6th year - Gryffindor already has two prefects for that year. If, as discussed in other threads, there are up to 30 students per house per year, there are *alot* of students we haven't met yet. Probably because they aren't important to the plot and the books are already very full of details that *have* to be there . And, no, Molly wouldn't want any of her children to be 'fired'. Ravenclaw Bookworm From elihufalk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 14:02:50 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 06:02:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Harry's Eyesight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040222140250.69818.qmail@web21412.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91436 Jen wrote: > I favor the theory that Harry's weak eyes are connected with > dragons' eyes, since they are also most vulnerable in this area. The > Conjunctivitis curse can wound a dragon--could it also wound Harry? > But now he has the Impervious charm on them, thanks to Hermione, so > perhaps as long as he has his glasses he's protected. Grannybat's answer: > So Harry's glasses are protected from raindrops and other liquids, but nothing else. They might safeguard him if an enemy tries to blind him with a splash of acid, but I wouldn't count on it. The caster's intent matters in JKR's spellwork. Hermione intended to improve Harry's visibility, not to confer on him invulnerability. >>> It's possible that you need to look directly into the eyes of the victim to use certain spells, and looking at the eyes through clear solids (eg. windows, eye-glasses etc.) isn't good enough. Maybe the presence of glasses protects his eyes from such spells. Elihu From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 21:05:20 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:05:20 -0000 Subject: Why does love have to be bad/sappy/ugly? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91437 Kristen wrote: > We have all discussed this in recent threads where everyone gags > themselves with a spoon (ha ha) whenever it is mentioned that Harry > may use love as the final weapon against LV. I am not a sappy person > myself, I admit, but I don't see anything wrong with the love thing. > > When I think about it, I think about Expecto Patronum. > I think that this may lead to the same weapon that could defeat LV. > It could also be why we learned so much about how to cast Expecto > Patronum. We all know that JKR doesn't tell us things we won't need > later on, therefore, I conclude that the mechanics for putting > together the patronus will be needed later on. > > I am hoping that Harry will learn about how to put together spells in > his NEWT classes. He will have more detailed studies over the next 2 > years and if he learns how to build his own spell and he knows that > his ability to feel emotion for those around him is his greatest > strength, then maybe he can build his own spell with those tools to > defeat LV. > > I don't condsider that sappy. Neri Now: I agree about practically everything. I'd also mention that there is a clear similarity between the Patronum Harry uses to banish the dementor in the beginning of OotP and the way he banishes LV out off his mind at the MoM by the end of OotP. Look at this: OotP, Ch. 1: the dementor banishing: "But there was no happiness in him . . . the Dementor's icy fingers were closing on his throat ? the high-patched laughter was growing louder and louder, and a voice spoke inside his head: 'Bow to death, Harry . . . it might even be painless . . . I would not know . . . I have never died' He was never going to see Ron and Hermione again ? And their faces burst clearly into his mind as he fought for breath. 'EXPECTO PATRONUM!' An enormous silver stag erupted from the tip of Harry's wand" OotP, Ch. 36: banishing LV: "He was gone from the hall, he was locked in the coils of a creature with red eyes, so tightly bound that Harry did not know where his body ended and the creatures began: they were fused together, bound by pain, and there was no escape ? And when the creature spoke, it used Harry's mouth, so that in his agony he felt his jaw move . . . 'Kill me now, Dumbledore . . .' Blinded and dying, every part of him screaming for release, Harry felt the creature use him again . . . 'If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy . . .' Let the pain stop, thought Harry . . . let him kill us . . . end it, Dumbledore . . . death is nothing compared to this . . . And I'll see Sirius again . . . And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creatures coils loosened, the pain was gone;" Notice the similarity? I'm not sure what Power X is. Call it love or whatever you prefer. Maybe it is something so primal and mysterious it doesn't even have a proper name in spoken language, only many vogue approximations such as love, self-sacrifice, ancient magic and so on. The important thing is that it works for Harry like a mental patronus. This "patronus" is completely immune to LV's powers, in a similar way that the patronus is immune to the effect of a dementor. And (very conveniently) there is a connection between Harry's and LV minds. So what happens if Harry constructs the mental patronus in his mind and sends it through the connection into LV's mind? And since Harry's real patronus has the shape of a stag, I won't be surprised if his mental patronus will turn out to have the shape of a large dog. "go get'im, Padfoot!" OK, maybe it will be just a tiny bit sappy. I won't mind 8-) Neri From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 21:12:02 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:12:02 -0000 Subject: Harry's Eyesight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: "I've had an idea, Harry! Give me your glasses, quick!" He handed them to her, and, as the team watched in amazement, Hermione tapped them with her wand and said, "Impervius!" "There!" she said, handing them back to Harry. "They'll repel water!" > So Harry's glasses are protected from raindrops and other liquids, but nothing else. Bookworm: Playing Devil's Advocate, we don't know the properties of the Impervius spell. Do we know that Hermione's spell only works on water/liquids? Or will the Law of Unintended Consquences be at work here? Ravenclaw Bookworm From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 21:44:57 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:44:57 -0000 Subject: Harry's Eyesight In-Reply-To: <20040222140250.69818.qmail@web21412.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91439 > Jen wrote: > > I favor the theory that Harry's weak eyes are connected with > > dragons' eyes, since they are also most vulnerable in this area. The > > Conjunctivitis curse can wound a dragon--could it also wound Harry? > > But now he has the Impervious charm on them, thanks to Hermione, so > > perhaps as long as he has his glasses he's protected. > > > Grannybat's answer: > > > So Harry's glasses are protected from raindrops and other liquids, > but nothing else. They might safeguard him if an enemy tries to blind > him with a splash of acid, but I wouldn't count on it. The caster's > intent matters in JKR's spellwork. Hermione intended to improve > Harry's visibility, not to confer on him invulnerability. >>> > > > It's possible that you need to look directly into the eyes of the victim to use certain spells, and looking at the eyes through clear solids (eg. windows, eye-glasses etc.) isn't good enough. Maybe the presence of glasses protects his eyes from such spells. > > Elihu Neri now: In OotP, the first Occlumency lesson, Snapes explains to Harry that "eye contact is often essential to Legilimency". Unfortunately for your theory, Harry most probably had his glasses during this lesson and it did not protect him from Snape. From jmmears at comcast.net Sun Feb 22 22:02:56 2004 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:02:56 -0000 Subject: Harry's protection and Ron's wand (WAS Re: AK and victims' remains) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91440 > > Sunday, February 22, 2004, 3:09:42 AM, Elihu wrote: > > > > > A particular wizard [Gilderoy Lockhart] believes that Harry > Potter > > > will be a danger to him [as a result knowledge which Harry now > > > had]. He attempts to use a spell he never failed with [memmory > > > charm,] on someone else and [at the same time] on Harry. The > spell > > > ordinarily has no effect on the surroundings, just incorrectable > > > damage [memmory loss] to the intended victem. However, the spell > > > caused distruction of the surroundings [part of the tunnel caved > > > in], and temperaryily affected the wizard [Lockhart] in a way > > > simalar to that intended on Harry. [2 1/2 years later, he's > > > starting to gain back his memmory]. To which Susanne replied: > > You mean, Lockhart using Ron's damaged wand had nothing to > > do with the cave-in and the spell backfiring on Lockhart, and > > it was instead some type of special protection in Harry? > > > > I always thought the above event had nothing to do with > > Harry's powers or protection, and everything with Lockhart > > using Ron's broken wand, which has been seen to malfunction > > in similar ways before. > > > > It "could" be a cover-up, but I don't really think so. Ravenclaw Bookworm responded: > What an interesting connection. I never thougth about connecting > the two scenes. Elihu, I have to agree that there is usually > something to JKR's 'coincidences'. Susanne, the other times we have > seen Ron's wand misfire, it usually redirected the spell onto > himself - slugs being the most dramatic example. It gave Ron > trouble, but I don't remember it causing destruction. > > It may be that Ron's wand caused the memory charm to hit Lockhart > instead, but that Harry's mysterious protection is what caused the > tunnel to collapse. So maybe Petunia's complaint that leaving Harry > alone would mean the house would collapse isn't so far off after all. I actually think that this time, canon is pretty straightforward about the reason the tunnel collapses and Lockhart loses his memory. As Ravenclaw Bookworm said, Ron's wand backfiring hadn't caused destruction before Gilderoy L. used it. However we should remember that Ron had not ever tried to use it in a confined (and unstable?) space before and more importantly, Ron is only a second year wizard with a second-hand wand at the time of the COS events. Lockhart is a fully trained wizard who, while he may be magically inept at DADA and healing charms, is a master at powerful memory charms. This fact is the entire justification for his success in taking credit for the accomplishments of many other wizards and witches. Since he tried to Obliviate both Harry and Ron at once with Ron's feeble, spellotaped wand, I can easily accept that the power of the charm he attempted to cast was enough to result in the tunnel's collapse as well as his near total memory loss. I just don't think that JKR left much wiggle room here. In spite of Harry being the central character in the books, I just don't think that every event which takes place can be the result of his "special powers". Sometimes the simplest explanation is actually the correct one. JMO, Jo Serenadust, who thinks that while Harry may blow up the odd aunt, can't imagine why he'd blow up the house (Petunia is just being her silly self again) From belijako at online.no Sun Feb 22 22:04:09 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:04:09 -0000 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91441 The subject of whether Ludo Bagman is/was a Death Eater has no doubt been discussed a number of times. I don't know if this is a correct observation, but I get the impression most posters believe Ludo isn't and never was a DE. I've reread GoF, specifically looking for information on Ludo Bagman and would like to present my thoughts. >From the very first time Bagman is mentioned, we get the impression of someone who is "likable enough", but a bit impulsive and doesn't take life too seriously (according to Percy :-). He wears flashy colourful sports attire and radiate childish innocence with his round blue eyes, short blond hair and rosy complexion; a big over-excited baby! (GoF p. 57-58, 80-81, 224, 514 UK Ed). His impulsiveness, rashness and love for Quidditch has unfortunately made him addicted to gambling, his only known "vice". Bagman is a popular figure in the wizarding world, everybody (with a couple of exceptions) loves him and trusts him. This is very obvious in his trial scene at the MoM, were his every word is followed by ringing applause, and instead of the jury sentencing him to a prison sentence Bagman is congratulated on his latest Quidditch win. Bagman also gives the impression of being very earnest (his round blue eyes widening) when he insisted he didn't know he was working for the DE's passing information to them (GoF p. 514 UK Ed). Also, the readers get the impression Bagman is far too "innocent" and stupid to have been a DE. This is also Mad-Eye Moody's impression: Quote: "[Bagman saying at his trial] `...I know I've been a bit of an idiot ?` `You never spoke a truer word, boy' muttered [Mad-Eye Moody]. `If I didn't know he'd *always* been dim, I'd said those Bludgers had permanently affected his brain...' (GoF p. 514 UK Ed). Finally; even Dumbledore seems to vouch for him: Quote: "'Then Mr Crouch's son might not have been involved?' said Harry slowly. Dumbledore shook his head. `As to that, I have no idea.' ...'Er, he [Harry] said, `Mr Bagman...' `...has never been accused of any Dark activity since,' said Dumbledore calmly. `And ... er ...' . But the Pensieve seemed to be asking the question for him. Snape's face was swimming on the surface again. Dumbledore glanced down into it, then up at Harry. `No more has Professor Snape,' he said." (GoF p. 524 UK Ed). Of course; Dumbledore, quite correctly, always assumes a man's innocence until proven otherwise. By the way; Dumbledore doesn't answer the question whether Bagman used to be a DE, just that he has not been accused of any such activity since (neither has a certain Mr. Malfoy...). What does that leave us? *Nothing*... DD very cleverly beats around the bush, making it appear he has answered Harry's question, when really, his answer hasn't brought any new light to the true intentions of Mr Bagman... The innocence of three people are being asked here. We know now that Crouch Jr was indeed a "real" DE. We know for sure that Snape has been a DE (but don't yet know for sure if he still is), and Ludo? We don't know for sure whether he really was a DE, and we don't know if he is now. He is a bigger puzzle than Snape is! Evidence that Ludo Bagman might have been a DE despite his baby-blue eyes: There is no question at all that he DID pass information to the DE's. We only have his words that he didn't know what he was doing. Now, can Ludo Bagman's words be trusted? Has he ever been known to not tell the truth? Has he ever been known to be evasive, to avoid trouble by fleeing/lying? Ask Fred and George. Ask Harry. Ask the Goblins. Ask all the other wizards who were cheated of their winnings. Quote: "[Fred saying] `The Goblins play as dirty as him [Bagman]" (GoF p. 635 UK Ed). Ludo is a man who plays dirty to wriggle out of tight spots... If he can do that to avoid paying his gambling debts, would he be capable of trying to wriggle his way out of more serious matters, like deny his allegiance to Lord Voldemort? Is it possible that we, the readers, and the rest of the wizarding world, are so taken in by Bagman's joviality and happy facade that we are prepared to excuse or overlook his darker sides? And note that the only reason he got off so easily from the charge made against him was his popularity due to his pleasant personality and his sports achievements (Mr. Crouch was the only one that was more than ready to sentence him like he had sentenced his own son). I know you don't trust anything Rita Skeeter says, but hear me out: She was present at Bagman's hearing. She told Hermione later on that she knew things about Bagman that would make her hair curl. Later Hermione thinks Rita referred to the fact that Bagman had passed information to the DE's (GoF p. 527 UK Ed). Much, much more interesting is what Rita told her photographer: Quote: "'And what's he [Ludo] doing with a pack of goblins in tow anyway? Showing them the sights ... what nonsense ... *he was always a bad liar*.'" (GoF p. 387-390 UK Ed). ALWAYS a bad liar? Could she be referring to the hearing as well? I don't see why Rita Skeeter would lie or make up stories to fool her own photographer, her fellow Daily Prophet colleague. What she says to Hermione or Harry (or the Daily Prophet readers) is an entire different matter, but I trust her to be honest when addressing a co- worker. Our next "witness" is not too "trustworthy" due to the fact that he wanted to lock up (without a fair trial) anyone he thought had anything to do with the DE's , regardless of whether there was hard evidence or not: Barty Crouch Sr. Quote: "'Mr Bagman comes too? Squeaked Winky... she looked angry again. `Mr Bagman is a bad wizard! My master isn't liking him, oh no, not at all!' `Bagman ? bad?' said Harry. `Oh, yes,' Winky said, nodding her head furiously. `My master is telling Winky some things! But Winky is not saying ... Winky keeps her master's secrets...'" (GoF p. 333 UK Ed). As said before, we know Mr Crouch was the over-jealous type, but the way Winky goes on about Bagman, it sounds like Mr Crouch had real reasons for suspecting Bagman was a DE. It doesn't sound like he's just annoyed he got off the charges... But I accept that Mr Crouch's deep dislike of Bagman is not evidence in itself that he indeed was a DE, just an interesting side-note :-). Another detail that's fishy is Bagman running away right after the third task of the Triwizard Tournament. Fred and George think Bagman had to run for it because the Goblins were chasing him (GoF p. 635 UK Ed). What they think is the reason and why he really ran might not be the same thing... What's a little odd is why Bagman didn't stay on for another five minutes, just to see whether the champions were okay. In the tumults and chaos that arouse when Harry and Cedric disappeared I'm sure Bagman would have been quite safe from the goblins (what would they have been doing inside Hogwarts grounds anyway? I don't recall any goblins being invited to watch the Tournament). He is not in the crowd hurrying over when Harry and Cedric reappear to check on them. He should have been the first one at the scene; he was after all, the one that arranged the whole Tournament. Ultimately, he was the one *responsible*. What if Bagman didn't (only) run away from the goblins? What if HE is the DE mentioned by Voldemort, `too cowardly to return...' Ring any bells? Who acts like a coward during the whole of GoF, running away from his duties and obligations? Karkaroff is not the only one. Or, maybe the reason Bagman disappeared so suddenly from the third Triwizard task is that he hurried out of Hogwarts grounds and apparated to the side of Voldemort together with the other DE's... After all, several of the DE's present are not mentioned by name. Either way, whether Bagman was a DE and now regrets it, or still is a faithful DE, I believe there are enough canon evidence to suspect there's more to Bagman than meets the eye. Lastly: The voice of Rowling represented by Hermione and Dumbledore is not conclusive; their words are pretty much open to interpretation: Quote: "[Ron asking:]'Yeah, but Bagman didn't pass information on purpose, did he?' Hermione *shrugged*." (GoF p. 527 UK Ed). And Dumbledore: "`[Bagman]...has never been accused of any Dark activity *since*,' said Dumbledore calmly. (GoF p.524). A lot of people, even his closest friends, thought a certain Peter Pettigrew was too dim to ever suspect him of becoming a DE, but he turned out to be "smart" enough, didn't he... Also, Bagman's round, innocent-looking eyes could be just as deceiving as Quirrel's feigned stammering and jumpiness. The only one not buying Quirrel's acting was Snape, as I recall... No one else questioned Quirrel's behaviour (Snape rocks!). And the only ones not buying Bagman's innocence were Rita Skeeter and Barty Crouch Sr.. In ordinary circumstances not the most reliable "judges of truth" perhaps, but still... I find it interesting, especially since "Rowling's voice", Hermione and Dumbledore, won't give us a straight answer... Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Feb 22 22:07:42 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:07:42 -0000 Subject: The Toad Lady and Her Disgrace... Disposition of Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thyerd" wrote: thyerd: > I also was amazed the DD let her just walk out and had her arrested > after she had admitted in front of so many witness that she had > attempted to murder Harry in his Muggle neighborhood by illegally > dispatching Dementors. Geoff: Yes, but who were the witnesses..... Hermione, Harry, Draco Malfoy, Millicent Bulstrode, "several large Slytherins" including Crabbe and Warrington, Ron, Ginny, Luna and Neville. (gleaned from OOTP "Out of the Fire" pp.652-58 UK edition). Snape has already left the room when this fact is revealed. All of these are (probably) minors. Umbridge tells Harry about the Demnetors. It is possible that not everyone hears this anyway. The Slytherins present might not want to drop DJU in it because they are members of the Inquistorial Squad and enjoying their own little ego trips. In the actions which immediately follow this chapter - the foray into the Forest, the trip to the Ministry and the battle - there is no time for the Gryffindors to pass this information to Dumbledore or another Order member. Perhaps, Book 6 might see this as part of the developing story.... From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Feb 22 22:22:22 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:22:22 -0000 Subject: It's not easy... In-Reply-To: <71397B06-656D-11D8-BA77-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: Kneasy: > Like I said - it's not easy being an HP fan. Geoff: Come along, though, Kneasy. If it was easy to be an HP fan, you would be complaining like hell....... You would be demanding to see the introduction of plot complications involving Harry and friends, red herrings to be scattered around the cat dishes, things going bump in the night in Little Whinging. There again, if it was easy, you might have given up after Book 1. It isn't easy, Kneasy or even easy-peasy but it's fun. Our paths might never have crossed if it wasn't for HP. I rest my case. :-) From siskiou at msn.com Sun Feb 22 23:25:28 2004 From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:25:28 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's protection and Ron's wand (WAS Re: AK and victims' remains) In-Reply-To: References: <1838753750.20040222105713@msn.com> Message-ID: <473939985.20040222152529@msn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91444 Hi, Sunday, February 22, 2004, 12:09:06 PM, scoutmom21113 wrote: > Susanne, the other times we > have > seen Ron's wand misfire, it usually redirected the spell onto > himself - slugs being the most dramatic example. It gave Ron > trouble, but I don't remember it causing destruction. Here's the relevant part from CoS: "A loud bang echoed around the stadium and a jet of green light shot out of the wrong end of Ron's wand, hitting him in the stomach and sending him reeling backward onto the grass." I don't remember loud bangs being associated with spells (I could be wrong), normally. When Lockhart used the wand, it exploded like a small bomb. Certainly a bigger event than a loud bang, but it could be accounted for by Gilderoy being a more experienced wizard, with a knack for powerful memory charms. I could also see the broken wand getting to the point where it's just going, no matter who uses it. If it was really Harry's in-build protection, I would have thought we'd see something similar when Moody put him under the Imperius Curse, or during the graveyard scene in GoF. I'm not saying it's impossible that there was something else involved in the cave-in, but I don't believe it very likely. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at msn.com Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From catlady at wicca.net Mon Feb 23 00:19:02 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:19:02 -0000 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91445 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > The subject of whether Ludo Bagman is/was a Death Eater has no doubt > been discussed a number of times. (snip) "Rowling's voice", Hermione > and Dumbledore, won't give us a straight answer... On first reading GoF, when I hadn't found out about Crouch Jr yet, I tried to assign one "faithful servant", one "coward", one "who has left me forever" between Karkaroff, Snape, and Bagman. Of course, once I found out about Crouch Jr, it's way easy to think Barty = faithful, Karkaroff = coward, Snape = left. But if Barty's assigned place in the circle was somewhere else, then the easy assumption is not the right assumption. Maybe Ludo was the faithful servant, altho' I can't see anything but his position in Department of Magical Sports and Games on which Voldemort could have based creditting him for Harry arriving to the Graveyard Gathering. It seems to me that one might just as well give Dumbledore the credit, for having suggested reviving the Triwizard Tournament in the first place. Still, if Ludo is to re-appear in Book 6 as an active Death Eater, we will learn that he did more behind the scenes. I just now wondered if he could have sent Bertha to Voldemort deliberately so Voldemort could extract information from her. Sending her to her painful death would show his Death Eater evilness. He could have sent her by talking up that particular part of the forest as a tourist attraction or giving her the address of a wizarding widower her age who was lonely just there. He could have known where Voldemort was by spies listening to rumors (as Dumbledore and Pettigrew were said to have done) or maybe all marked Death Eaters know where Voldemort is through their Dark Mark (so Dumbledore knew about Albania from Snape not from "sources"). But, what information did he think would be of use to Voldemort at just that time? I don't think telling V that there would be a Triwizard Tournament would strike Ludo as likely to be useful to V, unless Ludo had more in his mind. Did he even know that HP was V's first main target, or did he think it was DD? Surely it would have seemed to him that there were easier way to kill HP or DD than all that stuff with the Tournament. And surely none of the 'Death Eaters who walked free" would gotten involved in a new war to conquer the wizarding world unless they felt sure of winning. Could he have known that Pettigrew had run to V or did he think V would use Bertha as embodiment (like Quirrell)? Could he have known that V had discovered that spell for permanent re-embodiment or could that spell have been what he was sending via Bertha? That would fit Magic Dishwasher, if DD and Snape discovered that spell AND THE FLAW IN IT and used Ludo to tell V about the spell (but not the flaw). If Bagman and Snape stood together in that circle, they would have at least known each other, maybe more than that, giving Snape the opportunity to pass info to Ludo. (Karkaroff and Snape stood together in that circle (according to both theories) and they called each other by first names, the only person Snape has been seen to call by first name. That's my evidence that Death Eaters who stand together have a relationship. Altho' the Lestrange gap was only big enough for two people, so Rabastan's place must not have been next to his brother.) It occurs to me that Ludo might have recently discovered that Crouch Sr was hiding Jr and Bertha knew about it under a Memory Charm, and that might be the information he was sending to V. It has been suggested that the 'servant' who will 'rejoin his master' in Trelawney's Second Prophecy is Crouch Jr, altho' the Prophecy said something about 'this very night'. Maybe that very night was when young Barty threw off the Imperius long enough for Ludo to notice him. From elihufalk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 14:10:49 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 06:10:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potters - A question In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040221112915.0342f800@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <20040222141049.26330.qmail@web21404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91446 Tanya Swaine wrote: "In the book, Sirius says that he persuaded James and Lily to change secret keepers at the last minute and according to the lexicon, the charm was cast only several days before the attack. Now, what I am trying to figure out. Was Sirius ever the secret keeper under that spell? Dumbledore didn't know about the switch that I can make out, so it must of been done just between James, Lily, Sirius and Peter. However, this is my question. At that time, Harry would of been 13-15 months old. The prophecy was overheard before his birth. Surely it didn't take LV over a year to figure out who to target. If James and Lily were not protected by that spell in the year or so leading up to the charm being cast with Peter as secret keeper, how did they remain safe for so long?" About the first question, I've stated that I believe that a long chain of people - the first casting the charm, the last being the secret-keeper, and all but the last believing that the secret-keeper is the next, is good enough. About the second, I think Voldemort might not have decided to act immediately. I think that when Voldemort did decide to act, he told Snape, and that was why Snape decided to join Dumbledore. Elihu From carrilynne at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 22 22:26:20 2004 From: carrilynne at sbcglobal.net (carrilynne) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:26:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's Eyesight - basilisk protection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91447 Grannybat: > > > > It's possible that you need to look directly into the eyes of the victim to use certain spells, and looking at the eyes through clear solids (eg. windows, eye-glasses etc.) isn't good enough. Maybe the presence of glasses protects his eyes from such spells. Neri now: > In OotP, the first Occlumency lesson, Snapes explains to Harry > that "eye contact is often essential to Legilimency". Unfortunately > for your theory, Harry most probably had his glasses during this > lesson and it did not protect him from Snape. Carri now: So, would his eyeglasses have protected him from the basilisk stare? Since CofS shows only petrification occuring when seeing the eyes through something else, for example, water on the floor, mirror (which are reflections) and a ghost and Collin's CAMERA - not reflections. Looking THROUGH the lense of the camera protected Colin from death, so could eyeglasses be a form of protection in some future appearance of another basilisk? ~CarriLynne From elrond at paradise.net.nz Mon Feb 23 00:23:35 2004 From: elrond at paradise.net.nz (Michael Chance) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:23:35 +1300 Subject: Emotions linking Harry & LV Message-ID: <001b01c3f9a3$522be620$6e5f4fcb@locxvcym> No: HPFGUIDX 91448 I was just re-reading OotP and something hit after the discussions about Harry using love to beat Voldermort. (The room in the ministry full of love, etc....) I've just reached p271 of the English edition, when the text pointed out that Harry and LV are already linked by strong emotion. The conversation with Sirus brings up the fact that whenever LV is feeling strong emotions, Harry's scar hurts. Not much thought on my part I'm afraid and I suppose there's a good chance someone else has already pointed out this connection and I've just missed it, but still it could have interesting connotations! :) Michael -- "The Dancing Skeleton" - http://chance.slashcity.net/hope/ - my personal page based on the quote "If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance." - George Bernard Shaw From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 01:42:26 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 01:42:26 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_The_Good,_The_Bad,_and_The_Ugly_(Was:_Book_6_&7_clich=E9s)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91449 Ginger: Good: Ginny Potter as MoM. AC: I think we need to buy into the fact that the seventh book is going to end in mid-June of 1998--that is, at the end of the Trio's seventh year. So, much as I buy the Ship, and much as I think she'd serve admirably, I think (given Ron's "I'm as likely to win the Quidditch Cup as my Dad is to become Minister > of Magic" foreshadowing) we're more likely to see Arthur take over the Ministry somewhere in Book Seven: Harry Potter and the Return of the Weasleys. I think Ginger is thinking of Ginny as becoming Minister or Magic in the Epilogue, which JKR has promised to give us--probably so we'll know what happened to everybody (who married whom and what their careers are) and won't be demending Book 8! But I think it'll be Hermione who becomes MoM in the epilogue--or at least she'll be in charge of the department that regulates relations between wizards and other magical beings. Carol, who'll be happy with any ending as long as HRH, Neville, Ginny and Snape are alive, Harry hasn't lost his powers, and Snape isn't a traitor or a vampire From CoyotesChild at charter.net Mon Feb 23 02:05:03 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:05:03 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c3f9b1$7660f860$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 91450 > -----Original Message----- > From: cubfanbudwoman [mailto:susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net] > Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 8:02 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin > > > > Whizbang writes: > > > I suspect the good slytherin is Tonks. At the prefect party > when > > > asked if she had been a prefect, she answered that her head of > > >house said that she lacked certain necessary qualities. > > > Ginny asks, "Like what?" > > > "Like the ability to behave myself." Sounds like Snape might > > >have been her head of house. > > Potioncat responded: > > That does sound like Snape doesn't it? > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan says: > That's interesting, because when I read that line--"Like the ability > to behave myself"--I can easily hear McGonagall saying it, as well! Iggy here: Actually, one of the voices I hear saying that the most clearly is Professor Sprout. (The only one I don't hear speaking up like that, in other words, is Professor Flitwick. I think that Flitwick has more of a sense of humor and appreciation for mischief than any of the other regular teachers.) It still pretty much leaves three houses open... Iggy McSnurd From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Mon Feb 23 02:07:47 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 02:07:47 -0000 Subject: Balance of power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > In reading the "Ron" post, and the several responses to it, something > occured to me. I have never thought of the three friends as > representing a rather complete balance of power. Though all of the > trio have comparable abilities, they all posssess unique strengths. > > Here is my point: The three of them together are better than any > two, and in the end it is going to take all three of them to get *The > One* to the place where he can save the world. > > This one is off the cuff...blast away! > > Sue AmanitaMuscaria writes: I totally agree with you here, Sue! What JKR is setting up is not our 20/21st century 2.2 pairing, but a much older power base. I agree with you that we've got emotion, learning and strategy represented. But I think what JKR has done, which is different, is that each proponent of the specific strength doesn't have that strength as their 'natural'? So we get the conflict of Harry, emotion, having no background in emotion. Ron, strategy, being the last son and allowing his emotion to sideline any strategic thinking. Hermione, learning, being flustered when quick decisions are required and fluffing her thinking role. So each of them have to learn from the others, and become complete persons in their own rights - would JKR want less for them? As you say, in PS, we had a stating of each person's abilities. In each of the subsequent books, one of the trio has retreated from the group. Perhaps we shan't see the triumvarate complete their task until the last book, triumphantly together? Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Feb 23 02:12:53 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 02:12:53 -0000 Subject: FILK: Nothing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91452 Nothing To the tune of the same name from A Chorus Line MIDI at: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/8849/Moviemusicals/Resu me/songs Dedicated to Gail (I managed to sneak in a little Karkaroff for you, babe!) THE SCENE: SNAPE describes his hate/hate relationship with Harry SNAPE (spoken): Beginning with his first year, Potter was assigned to my class. Admittedly, I still harbored a little animosity toward James, but I was willing to let bygones be bygones. Anyway, it's our first day of Potions class: we're in the dungeon, and I'm being just as friendly and helpful as I can be. I ask Potter one simple little query about powdered root of asphodel (utter softball of a question, really, a chance for him to look good) and he gives me this hateful, impertinent stare. My initial appearance in Canon, mind you, and I'm eager to make a good first impression. Instead, he makes me look like a complete ogre, to the point that most first-time readers think I'm the villain. "Just like his father." I thought, "Defiant, arrogant." A resemblance that has only grown worse over time (music) Twice a week for five years I have tried to teach him Potions Stir up potions in my class Twice a week for five years I have tried to teach him wormwood It's no durn good, he gives sass For he snuck right down to the dungeon of my room For boomslang I had inside. Yes, he snuck right down to the dungeon of my room And he lied, he lied! (spoken) And Karkaroff was goin' "Eek! Eek! I see the snake, I see the skull, I feel the burn!" And I turned to Potter and I said: "Okay, celebrity, what did you steal?" (music) And he said... "Nothing, I've stolen nothing," Then he says, "Nothing, not even Gillyweed." That boy's a liar, I mean entire! I'd love to pour some Polyjuice into his mead! (spoken) But I said to myself, "Hey, if he keeps on crossing lines, he's gonna get nailed. Even Dumbledore gonna have to call him on it, eventually." Diff'rent time, still Year Four, As we held the TriWiz Tourney, For both Durmstrang, Beauxbaton Dumbledore, he would say, "Very good, we'll ask the Goblet. Choose, O Goblet, three champions!" And he reached right out to the Goblet of the flame To see who the champs would be... Yes, he reached right out to the Goblet of the flame And he read, "H.P.!" The brat yelled, "Nothing!" I have done nothing!" Dumble would not this Potter entry snub He's in the Doomspell, it made me fume well How our faculty were joining his fan club. (spoken) At least I had the consolation of knowing that I was Potter's worst nightmare. I didn't let him get away with a thing, let me tell you! And then Dumbledore said, "Severus, I need you to give Potter Occlumency lessons." Merlin's beard! A tedious and unrewarding task ? but if nothing else, I would gain a degree of satisfaction from this ? a unique opportunity to see how I've penetrated into Potter's very subconscious, of how I torment and plague the innermost sanctum of his soul .. Six p.m teaching to Harry Potter Occlumency, Occlumency, on his knees. Six p.m. gazing at Harry Potter Let me see it, Help me see I'm his unease. And I saw right down to the bottom of his soul Reading between lines of his mind, Looking through the top to the bottom of his soul Here is what I find: Of me there's nothing! In his pain nothing! He's suffered trauma, but none of it from me! His cousin harmed him So did dementors But Sev'rus Snape gave him not one bad memory A few weeks later my Pensieve thoughts he eyed As he dug right down to the bottom of my soul And pried-- Now thinks I'm nothing... - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Mon Feb 23 03:22:58 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 03:22:58 -0000 Subject: Using the Piensive by eye Witnesses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91453 This has probably been brought up, but in PoA, the eye witnesses to Peter Pettigrew being scabbers were HRH, Werewolf Lupin, and Convict Black, who were all considered weak witnesses. Well, we know from later books that the Piensive can withdraw thoughts, memories, etc as they are for further analysis. So why couldn't Dumbledore use the piensive of all of the eye witnesses before Fudge to prove Sirius's innocence and Pettigrew's treason? In fact, why couldn't DD use it on Harry in GoF to prove as an eye witness account that Moldy Voldy was back? As for the idea that the piensive is subjective or objective, please read the article from mugglenet about the piensive. http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt17.shtml This has been bothering me for some time. Sawsan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 03:36:24 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 03:36:24 -0000 Subject: Baby-headed Death Eater In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91454 Carol wrote: (I snipped your suggestion that it [the baby-headed Death Eater] was Rabastan, but I don't think it was him because I think he followed Bellatrix with Rodolphus. I'll have to go back and read your post when it isn't 1:44 in the morning. Annemehr: Well, when Malfoy first paired them off and sent them after the escaping kids, he paired Rabastan with Crabbe and sent them in the opposite direction to Rodolphus and Bellatrix. I don't think there's any way at all of telling exactly who followed Ron, Ginny and Luna into the brain room with Bellatrix -- if you saw something I missed, let me know! Oh! I just checked something else! Right after Harry and the kids smashed prophecy orbs and ran from the DEs, Harry, Hermione and Neville ran to the end of the row and turned RIGHT (p.787, Scholastic -- the very last words on that page). They arrive in the Time room and Colloportus the door. Harry hears Malfoy pairing off the DEs and Malfoy tells Crabbe and Rabastan to go RIGHT also (p. 788)! So I really do believe the two DEs who almost immediately break into that room are indeed Crabbe and Rabastan, one of whom is the Baby-Head DE! Carol: If the baby-headed DE was Crabbe, it would make sense for Rabastan to join up with his brother and sister-in-law--more sense than it would make for Crabbe to join them if the Baby Head was Rabastan. In fact I think Crabbe, not being overly bright, would have a hard time figuring out what to do. (Duh, I wish Goyle was here!) Seriously, based on your evidence, I'm thinking that the baby-headed DE was definitely Crabbe. (I hope it was, in fact, because I want to find out more about Rabastan. What's his part in the plot? I understand giving Bellatrix a husband, but why give the husband a brother who joins him in Crucioing the Longbottoms and is with him in Azkaban and the DoM--unlike Sirius and Regulus, these brothers are a team--or a threesome with Bellatrix. So even though Rabastan is presumably evil, I'm intrigued by him, and I hope to find out more about him in Book 6. And if Crabbe is the baby-headed DE, it will give young Crabbe, whose first name I can't remember, a specific grudge against Harry that sets him apart from Gregory Goyle. In fact, speaking of threesomes, I'm still surprised that Draco and Crabbe, Jr., are still friends with Goyle,Jr., whose father wasn't in the DoM raid and wasn't arrested. Maybe they're hoping Goyle, Sr., will help to rescue their fathers? (Fat chance!) And I'm also wondering about Theodore Nott, whose father was in the raid but injured and left behind on Lucius Malfoy's orders. Will Theo be the longed for "good" Slytherin? See my earlier post! Carol, who almost sent this post through with three signatures! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 04:15:31 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 04:15:31 -0000 Subject: Metamorphagus Tonks (Was: Initials0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91455 AC wrote: I, like many others, I'm sure, am waiting for the metamorphmagus thing to be sprung on us by surprise in the next book or two. Have Tonks masquerading as something/someone else, then suddenly revealing herself. Of course, it could also be that one of the characters we've already met is a metamorphmagus who is masquerading as Tonks.... Carol: Which brings up a question I have about Tonks. so far we've only seen her change her hair or her nose or disguise herself (twice) as an older woman. Could she change herself to look like a real person that she knows who's significantly different from her in some way--say, a child or a man? Could she turn into an animal without having to train herself to do so as the animagi did? Could she even, as Hannah Abbott fearfully suggested about Sirius Black, turn herself into a potted plant? If she faces the Death Eaters in some sort of battle, could she use her inborn talent against them in some way? I don't see why we'd need another metamorphagus when we already have Tonks. I just want to see her do something more interesting (and significant)than entertain Ginny and Hermione by switching noses during lunch. Carol From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Mon Feb 23 04:17:45 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 04:17:45 -0000 Subject: (FILK) The Voice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91456 The Voice (A FILK by Gail B. to the tune of Your Song by Elton John) This song was used in the movie Moulin Rouge, and was sung by Ewan McGregor (be still my beating heart!), but only partially so. The lyrics in the parentheses are those that were not sung in the film. Midi is here: http://www.midifilearchive.com/Rock-pop/elton.html Dedicated to CMC. Harry: (It's a little bit scary, this voice that I heard It was at night the time it first occurred Didn't speak for long, but boy, what it said! Sounded like something wished somebody dead Could tell the Headmaster, heh, on second thought, no 'Cause he might not believe me if I should let him know I am not lying, but just the other day) I heard this voice speak which made me afraid Now I won't tell anybody I heard this voice While addressing envelopes of Gilderoy's I did not get it, how Lockhart, that git, Could remain in good cheer? The venomous voice had spoken loud and clear I was with Lockhart, serving detention With his dull, mindless patter, well, I lost attention Then I heard a deep voice which gave me a chill It said that it wanted to rip, tear and kill So, I told my friends later of what I had heard And how professor Lockhart, he couldn't hear a word Anyway, Ron explained what's the bottom line That hearing voices is not a good sign Now I can't tell anybody that I heard this voice They may think I'm crazy so, I have no choice I won't forget it, not even a bit I tried to strain my ear How horrible it was, this voice which I fear I will not admit that I had heard it While I am staying here Don't want to be kicked out in my second year -Gail B. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 04:29:32 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 04:29:32 -0000 Subject: Dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91457 hrijnana wrote: Dementors aren't mentioned in FB by the name 'dementor', but the description of the Lethifold sounds remarkably like them. "It resembles a black clock.... which glides along the ground" and . . . "the Patronus is the only spell known to repel the lethifold". It also says that it suffocates the victims, then digests them, leaving nothing behind. YUK! Maybe demontors are part lethifold... but then who'd want to breed with them???? Carol: Which reminds me: Wasn't Ron nearly strangled by a cloak when they were cleaning up 12 Grimmauld Place in OoP? I think it was Mad Eye who saved him, but I don't remember a specific spell being mentioned. I certainly would have thought a Patronus was an odd form of rescue from that particular situation. At any rate, your Lethifold description certainly makes his danger sound a lot greater than it appeared when I read the scene in OoP. In fact, it was passed over in a sentence or two--just the sort of passing reference that we've grown to regard as suspicious. While I'm at it, there was also a jar of something that looked like blood. (Sirius's father was a vampire? Joking!) I'd like to know more about the contents of that house and their connection with Dark Magic. Maybe next year's DADA classes will focus on Dark Artifacts instead of creatures like grindylows (third year) or spells to watch out for (fourth year). Carol, who wonders what Crouch!Moody taught after the lesson with the spiders. Wouldn't anything else have been anticlimactic? Carol, who doesn't want to think about Dementors breeding with anything, even cloaks From tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com Mon Feb 23 05:24:52 2004 From: tsuki_no_miko at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:24:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many prefects per house? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91458 Sue: > In my theory, James would never have been a prefect. Lupin would have > been the prefect for their year through yrs. 5,6, and 7. Then, due to > some extrordinary circumstance, James was made Head Boy in their 7th > year without the prefect background. I'm sorry - misunderstood your theory, I suppose. However, that still leaves the question of how James became Head Boy and whether or not one had to be a prefect to be selected Head Boy. You mentioned "extraordinary circumstance," but could it simply be that JKR is choosing to make Hogwart's system a little differently by completely surpassing the idea that one must be a prefect to be selected head boy or girl? An individual showing excellence in someway may be selected for a head boy/girl position without being a prefect first? That's the only explanation coming to my head; anyone got other ideas? ~Ali, who's rooting for Harry to be head boy, if only because James was one From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 05:26:47 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 05:26:47 -0000 Subject: Looking into Parvati's head (Was:Balance of power) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91459 > Sue, who is wondering today if Harry actually used legilimency to see > into Parvati's head during the Magical History OWL exam or if Lord > Thingy was sitting in his study, strumming his fingers irritatedly(?) > remembering historical facts while he waited for Harry to fall asleep. Carol: I agree with your "balance of power" post but don't have anything to add, so I'll respond to your P.S. I like the suggestion that LV practicing legilmency on Harry (without his knowledge) put the idea of looking into Parvati's head into his mind. But to me the scene also indicates that Harry still doesn't understand the important distinction that Snape made between legilmency and the Muggle concept of mind-reading. The legilmens senses feelings and sees memories and other images but not words. "The mind is not a book to be opened and perused at will." If Harry had been able to enter Parvati's mind, he might very well have felt her frustration as she struggled with an answer or sensed her excitement as she remembered the right answer to a difficult question, but he would not have seen (or heard) the answers because the legilmens does not read thoughts--unless he could somehow have looked through her eyes at the answers she was writing on the paper. But from what we've seen so far of legilmency, Pensieves, and memories preserved in diaries, the subject of the thought or memory is seen from the outside. So to me the scene mostly indicates that he still doesn't understand what legilmency is. Carol From smaragdina5 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 05:50:05 2004 From: smaragdina5 at yahoo.com (smaragdina5) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 05:50:05 -0000 Subject: Harry's Eyesight - basilisk protection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91460 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carrilynne" wrote: > So, would his eyeglasses have protected him from the basilisk > stare? Since CofS shows only petrification occuring when seeing the > eyes through something else, for example, water on the floor, mirror > (which are reflections) and a ghost and Collin's CAMERA - not > reflections. Looking THROUGH the lense of the camera protected > Colin from death, so could eyeglasses be a form of protection in > some future appearance of another basilisk? This is intriguing, for one clue from the new Galadriel W. New Clues to HP5 book seems to be that there is another basilisk coming up! Betta smaragdina From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 06:53:26 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 06:53:26 -0000 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91461 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" > wrote: > > > The subject of whether Ludo Bagman is/was a Death Eater has no doubt > > been discussed a number of times. (snip) "Rowling's voice", Hermione > > and Dumbledore, won't give us a straight answer... > > On first reading GoF, when I hadn't found out about Crouch Jr yet, I > tried to assign one "faithful servant", one "coward", one "who has > left me forever" between Karkaroff, Snape, and Bagman. Of course, once > I found out about Crouch Jr, it's way easy to think Barty = faithful, > Karkaroff = coward, Snape = left. But if Barty's assigned place in the > circle was somewhere else, then the easy assumption is not the right > assumption. Annemehr: It's interesting to me that the position of "faithful servant" seems to be coveted by the DEs. In ch. 1 of GoF, when Voldemort says "Come, Wormtail, one more curse ["death" in US] and our path to Harry Potter is clear. I am not asking you to do it alone. By that time, my /faithful/ servant will have rejoined us --" then Wormtail replies: "/I/ am a faithful servant," with the merest trace of sullenness in his voice. Bellatrix, at the sentencing Harry saw in the pensieve, shouts "We alone were faithful! We alone tried to find him!" That's a claim Crouch Jr. reasserts for himself after Harry gets back from the graveyard: "Tell me he told them that I, I alone remained faithful...". (GoF ch. 30 and 35 respectively) Barty Jr., in fact, is alone in these examples in claiming to be the *only* faithful servant. I'm not sure whether all this claiming to be faithful is merely the byproduct of fearing the consequences if Voldemort thinks otherwise, or whether it's something else -- a striving to get into his inner circle, to get power over the others or extra privileges or something. Catlady: > Maybe Ludo was the faithful servant, altho' I can't see anything but > his position in Department of Magical Sports and Games on which > Voldemort could have based creditting him for Harry arriving to the > Graveyard Gathering. It seems to me that one might just as well give > Dumbledore the credit, for having suggested reviving the Triwizard > Tournament in the first place. Annemehr: You know, you've just suggested a really interesting possibility to me. If old Ludo was a faithful DE, then he was in the perfect position to have suggested the Maze task itself and the ruse of having the Triwizard Cup be a portkey to the Maze's entrance. This is *perfect* if Hogwarts is indeed Portkey-proof and only Dumbledore can override that protection (a theory some hold as necessary to Hogwarts Security not to mention the plot of GoF). This might solve some other lingering difficulties: Maybe JKR never told us *why* the Cup had to be the portkey because the answer (that Hogwarts is otherwise portkey-proof) points too strongly to Ludo, who along with the senior Barty Crouch made the arrangements* for the tasks. I'm also remembering that Karkaroff and Maxime (and presumably Dumbledore) were not *supposed* to know about the tasks ahead of time (remember them finding out about the dragons). So Karkaroff can't be counted on to know about portkeys ahead of time. [*See Note at end of post] Another thing, surely at the time Voldemort captured Bertha Jorkins she did not know all the details of the three tasks? In GoF ch.7, when Bagman and Crouch Sr. are talking to Arthur around the campfire, and they're talking about the difficulty of organizing the World Cup match, Arthur suggests that Crouch and Bagman will be glad when it's over. Ludo's response: "Glad! I don't know when I've had more fun....Still, it's not as though we haven't got anything to look forward to, eh, Barty? Eh? Plenty left to organize, eh?" Plenty left to organize! -- could that "plenty" be *only* how many students each visiting school can take to Hogwarts, or are there tasks to plan? And does Voldemort rely on Crouch!Moody to report the final form the tasks take so he can figure out a way to use one to get Harry? Or does he have Ludo Bagman to plan a task involving a Portkey which can be diverted to a certain graveyard? (BTW, Dumbledore's speech the night of *Oct. 30* after the Durmstrang and Beauxbatons contingent arrived includes the line "Mr. Bagman and Mr. Crouch have worked tirelessly over the last few months on the arrangements for the Triwizard Tournament." -- ch. 16) This does not make Crouch!Moody redundant. Crouch!Moody was on the spot to guide Harry through the tournament. While Bagman could help by giving high marks, Crouch!Moody was really the only one able to search Harry's thoughts and give help and advice as necessary, as well as help Harry through the Maze itself. ***Note: There is a passage I find odd now that I read it again, in Dumbledore's welcoming speech the night of October 30 (GoF ch. 16): ---------------------------------------- "The instructions for the tasks the champions will face this year have already been examined by Mr. Crouch and Mr. Bagman," said Dumbeldore as Filch placed the chest carefully on the table before him, "and they have made the necessary arrangements for each challenge. [...]" ----------------------------------------- The instructions have been *examined* by Mr. Crouch and Mr. Bagman? WHOSE instructions are those; who wrote them? It *couldn't* have been Dumbledore, could it? Surely the other two headmasters would not have stood for the tournament being *designed* by the host headmaster? Maybe the instructions were written by some charmed magical object that keeps its brain we know not where? Or is it just something they read from an ancient TWT rulebook? Not that this hurts the "DE Bagman Suggests Use of Portkey" theory; after all, he's still making "necessary arrangements." Annemehr who figures a DE!Ludo would have been in the graveyard that night, and so not the faithful servant Voldemort said was at Hogwarts. And Voldemort punished him thoroughly for screwing up his very useful Ministry job by getting into trouble with the goblins. He's still "Bludger-for-brains" Bagman behind his back! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 07:30:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 07:30:27 -0000 Subject: Malfoy, the Prefect (Was: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. . .) In-Reply-To: <20040222035042.42226.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91462 Juhu wrote: > And besides, doesn't the Headmaster pick prefects? I > suppose the Heads of House would have some input. > > JuHu, who wonders why DD or Snape would ever hand > Malfoy more bullying power Carol: The decision wouldn't have been Snape's alone; it would have been Dumbledore's with Snape's input. But, as usual, I'm sure they have their reasons. First, assuming that there are only five fifth-year boys in Slytherin, that doesn't give them much to choose from. We can eliminate Crabbe and Goyle as prefect material. We don't know enough about Theo Nott or Blaise Zabini to know their qualifications, but both appear to be quiet, possibly a bit intimidated by him. Can you imagine his reaction if he hadn't been made prefect or his obeying Theo or Blaise if they told him to stop doing something? "You give me a detention, Zabini, and I'll hex you!" In any case, Draco is already the leader of the Slytherins and leadership is the main quality a prefect needs. He seems to me to be the natural choice, and perhaps the only one (just as Pansy probably was for the Slytherin girls). There's also the important matter of Snape's connection with Lucius Malfoy to consider. If, as I suspect, Snape was getting most of his information about the DEs from Malfoy at the time the prefects were chosen, it would be dangerous, maybe even lethal, to sabotage that relationship by choosing someone other than Malfoy's son as prefect. And Snape also needs to be on good terms with Draco to prevent him from realizing which side Snape is really on. And, oddly, it's a way of keeping Draco under control. As long as Draco thinks he's Snape's favorite, he's not going to do anything to sabotage that relationship. And really, what has Draco done so far, aside from cheating at quidditch, making snide remarks to HRH, and passing out "Potter Stinks" badges to the Slytherins? He's been hexed by Harry and friends a lot more often than they've hexed him. True, he abused his powers when Umbridge made him a member of her Inquisitorial Squad, but IIRC he never handed out detentions when he was merely a prefect. Ron and Hermione could have done the same to him and his friends. Things will be different now, of course, with Lucius in Azkaban, and Draco may stop being just a nasty little brat and start being a real threat to Harry and his friends, maybe even in danger of joining the Death Eaters. Snape is going to have his hands full. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 07:59:49 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 07:59:49 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: <20040222033454.69017.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91463 Whizbang writes: I suspect the good slytherin is Tonks. At the prefect party when asked if she had been a prefect, she answered that her head of house said that she lacked certain necessary qualities. Ginny asks, "Like what?" "Like the ability to behave myself." Sounds like Snape might have been her head of house. Siriusly Snapey Susan says: That's interesting, because when I read that line--"Like the ability to behave myself"--I can easily hear McGonagall saying it, as well! Melz: I agree with Susan... I've never really given it too much thought, but I had assume that Tonks was from Gryfindor. This is only my opinion, but I kind of think Tonks is too... cheerful for a Slytherin. Carol: I also thought of McGonagall when I read the line about lacking the ability to behave herself. Think about the Gryffindors who couldn't behave themselves and were not made prefects--notably the Weasley twins (can you see both of them with badges, or one with a badge and the other without?) and also (if you believe that MWPP were in Gryffindor) Sirius and James, who were always in detention. It's almost a Gryffindor trait to be mischievous and I think Tonks would have been right at home. OTOH, since she has a cheerful disposition and seems to get along well with everybody, I can also see her in Huffleppuff. Definitely not in Ravenclaw, and probably not in Slytherin, since she doesn't seem to be ambitious or cunning and would have found the pureblood prejudice annoying given her Muggle-born father. The more I think about it, the more I'm certain that, like most of JKR's favorite characters (not necessarily my own favorites), she was a Gryffindor. Carol From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 04:09:44 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 04:09:44 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (Was: Book 6 &7 clichs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91464 >Carol says: > I think Ginger is thinking of Ginny as becoming Minister or Magic in > the Epilogue, which JKR has promised to give us--probably so we'll > know what happened to everybody (who married whom and what their > careers are) and won't be demending Book 8! Antosha says: Ah! She's promised an epilogue! Didn't know that! That's why newbies like me should just shut up and listen for a while, to soak in all the acquired wisdom of these halls... Now, is it the EPILOGUE that ends with 'scar,' or the final chapter???? >But I think it'll be > Hermione who becomes MoM in the epilogue--or at least she'll be in > charge of the department that regulates relations between wizards and > other magical beings. That's a possibility. In any case I rather like the idea of Harry staying home with the kids while his wife, Ginny/Hermione/Luna/Pansy/whoever brings home the bacon as MoM! Given the boys overexposure to adventure, I think that would be rather satisfactory... Antosha, who is just happy that such a place as this exists.... From ahtrap at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 07:13:09 2004 From: ahtrap at yahoo.com (Partha Mukhopadhyay) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:13:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: the mirror of erised fulfilled? In-Reply-To: <1077480440.5356.43626.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040223071309.29484.qmail@web61005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91465 Catlady wrote: Anyway, I really want Ron to be the captain. It means more to him that it would to Harry. For the same reason, I want Ron to be Head Boy (with Hermione as Head Girl). Partha: Read that, and couldn't help but thinking about Ron's turn at the Mirror of Erised in PS, where his deepest desires included being Head Boy and Quidditch captain, outshining all his siblings....and maybe, perhaps maybe, his dreams will be among those which turn out not only to be possible, but true. Have a couple of thoughts kicking around my head which I could swear have likely been covered here before, but a cursory glance through the archives fail to reveal. Firstly, regarding the Hogwarts house that Sirius Black belonged to, I've taken Hagrid's PS indication that all bad wizards were from Slytherin as a hint that Sirius may have once worn green and silver. Secondly, shouldn't priori incantatem (spelling?) have shown that Sirius Black had not indeed blown apart the street full of Muggles....and Peter Pettigrew? Figured that might be a case of the PI spell being a recent invention, if you can think of spells as technologies. Like I said, given the incredible amount of chatter and speculation I've seen on this list in my first few days hanging around, these items have probably been addressed many times over; apologies and a plea to send me to the appropriate place for answers or speculation regarding these topics if that's the case. partha __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 07:22:06 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 07:22:06 -0000 Subject: Metamorphagus Tonks (Was: Initials) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91466 Carol wrote: I just want to > see her [Tonks] do something more interesting (and significant)than entertain > Ginny and Hermione by switching noses during lunch. > Antosha: Agreed. That scene, more than any of the rest of OotP, had the feeling of Setting Something Up.... and no payoff so far, so we'll hold our breath for the next installment, eh? Antosha, who is keeping his Google searches on "harry potter" "sixth book" down to two a week. From elihufalk at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 07:58:55 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:58:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not letting Harry and Hermione face the boggart was unfair (was: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: HOW many classmates?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040223075855.38297.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91467 dorapye wrote: However, if we take it that there are *thirty* Gryffindors in the class, Harry and Hermione not getting their turn with the Boggart doesn't seem quite so....significant...or unfair... (except that Lupin dives in front of Harry to prevent him from tackling it). My answer: This would make sense if, in fact, each student only faced the Boggart once. However, allowing Neville face the Boggart twice, while 2 students didn't face it at all, is unfair to those 2 students. If, in fact, there were 29 chances to face the Boggart and 30 students, the most fair way to devide it up would be that 1 doesn't face the Boggart at all, and each of the others faces it once. Elihu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon Feb 23 08:26:23 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:26:23 -0000 Subject: Using the Piensive by eye Witnesses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > So why couldn't Dumbledore use the > piensive of all of the eye witnesses before Fudge to prove Sirius's > innocence and Pettigrew's treason? In fact, why couldn't DD use it on > Harry in GoF to prove as an eye witness account that Moldy Voldy was back? > > As for the idea that the piensive is subjective or objective, please > read the article from mugglenet about the piensive. > > http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt17.shtml > > This has been bothering me for some time. > Sawsan Sue B: Fudge is an idiot who wouldn't believe LV was back if You Know Who tap danced on his desk. I have never quite been able to believe in the Pensieve, anyway - and I think it's really just a plot device to explain things that happened in the past without lots of heavy exposition. There are just too many holes in it. You'd think that the thing would show you what was happening through the eyes of the witness, but it doesn't - and while it does say in OOP that Harry couldn't have followed James and Sirius outside unless Snape does, he sees and hears lots of things that Young Snape couldn't have. Sorry if this is slightly off-topic! From elihufalk at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 08:24:09 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:24:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] AK and victims' remains In-Reply-To: <1838753750.20040222105713@msn.com> Message-ID: <20040223082409.91700.qmail@web21412.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91469 Susanne wrote: You mean, Lockhart using Ron's damaged wand had nothing to do with the cave-in and the spell backfiring on Lockhart, and it was instead some type of special protection in Harry? I always thought the above event had nothing to do with Harry's powers or protection, and everything with Lockhart using Ron's broken wand, which has been seen to malfunction in similar ways before. It "could" be a cover-up, but I don't really think so. My (Elihu's) answer: I think that the combination of the spell effects being done on the person who attempted to do the spell, plus the cave-in, is too much for just saying "Ron's wand was responsible". And the two cases (Voldemort's Avada Kadavra and Lockhart's memmory charm) are just too similar, in my opinion, to be a cooincidence. Elihu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Feb 23 08:49:05 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:49:05 -0000 Subject: Harry's Eyesight - basilisk protection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91470 > Carri wrote : > So, would his eyeglasses have protected him from the basilisk > stare? Since CofS shows only petrification occuring when seeing the > eyes through something else, for example, water on the floor, mirror From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 08:50:07 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:50:07 -0000 Subject: How many prefects per house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91471 Sue: > In my theory, James would never have been a prefect. Lupin would have > been the prefect for their year through yrs. 5,6, and 7. Then, due to > some extrordinary circumstance, James was made Head Boy in their 7th > year without the prefect background. >,snip> Carol: I don't think that your theory is a theory. It appears to be canon. Prefects are appointed in the fifthe year, one boy and one girl from each house, and remain prefects for the sixth and seventh years. Of sourse the only example we have of this is Percy, but there doesn't seem to have been any question that he wouldn't get his badge back the next year. Percy is both a prefect and Head Boy in his seventh year, but the prefect duties are more or less absorbed into or subsumed under those of Head Boy. Most Head Boys and Head Girls are apparently prefects first, as both Bill, Percy, and Lily were, but there are exceptions: notably James. We know for a fact that he was never a prefect. Sirius says so in OoP. Remus was chosen as prefect in their fifth year and presumably remained a prefect all three years. As for why James was made Head Boy, I don't think there's anything mysterious or extraordinary about it. He was the best student in the school (the highest marks) and Dumbledore honored him for his academic achievements by making him Head Boy. Lucky Gryffindor would have had three seventh-year prefects that year: James, Remus, and Lily, who was both a prefect and Head Girl. Carol, who hopes that people who think MWPP were in Slytherin will still see the point of the argument and not get sidetracked by the last sentence From elihufalk at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 08:28:07 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:28:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HOW many classmates?/ Are there an equal number of students in each house? In-Reply-To: <001301c3f977$2f97ae40$5e4e6751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <20040223082807.44841.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91472 Ffred wrote: The actual numbers in the first 5 years would be larger than 1000/7 of course, because you have to assume that a certain number leave after taking OWLs, so that years 6 and 7 will be smaller than years 1-5 Some of the implications are difficult to deal with, though. If you've got 30 per house, then some of the professors (Snape, Hagrid, Sprout) are teaching classes of 60! Not even a teacher in a sink comprehensive has to deal with that... My (Elihu's) answer: If you say the average year has 143 (exactly 1001/7), you can still have some years smaller than others. lets say that in Harry's year, slightly less than 1 quarter ended up being Gryffindors. You could easily, in my opinion, from a group of 135 students, have 30 Gryffindors instead of 34. Elihu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Feb 23 12:14:29 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:14:29 -0000 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > The subject of whether Ludo Bagman is/was a Death Eater has no doubt > been discussed a number of times. I don't know if this is a correct > observation, but I get the impression most posters believe Ludo isn't > and never was a DE. I've reread GoF, specifically looking for > information on Ludo Bagman and would like to present my thoughts. > Kneasy: Certainly Bagman is not to be trusted, but whether or not he is (was) a DE is a moot point. There is a danger that we may fall into the habit of thinking that anyone who supports Voldy must be a DE. Yet Hagrid tells Harry that Voldy had plenty willing to become 'followers', some through fear, some through enthusiasm. That being the case he could pick and choose who was accepted into his inner circle - the DEs. And I don't doubt that before being fully accepted some proof of loyalty, in the form of evil action or initiation test was necessary. It was probably at this stage that Regulus Black came unstuck. But there would be many more who, like Sirius' parents, gave support and perhaps help to Voldemort, without formally joining his happy little band. What Lenin called "Useful idiots." Bagman could well have fallen into this category, and maybe he still could. Remember that at TQWC it is stated that there was "a crowd" of wizards that were torturing Muggles and that "more joined them". This would indicate that there were more than the scant double-handful who responded to Voldy's call to the graveyard. And where was Ludo while all this was going on? In the forest. And who else was in the forest? Barty Crouch Jr. that's who. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Note that at his trial Bagman does not deny passing information, only that he was misled as to which side it was going to. Tripe. Utter tripe. He knew damn well which side it was going to - the 'good' side would have no difficulty in obtaining information from the Ministry. For it to be otherwise the MoM would have to be packed from top to bottom with Voldy fans which, given the number of Aurors based there is unlikely. Sure, there would have been some bad eggs (like Bagman) but if there had been significant numbers of them then Voldy would have won in a walk. Bagman also states that "...old Rookwood was a friend of my dad's." Now that's interesting. For a start it defies credibility that Ludo hadn't at some time heard Rookwood sounding off with his views on Voldy, mudbloods and the like. It also makes me suspect that the Bagman clan was pureblood (would Rookwood have dealings with them other- wise?) and because of their association with Rookwood probably Voldy supporters too. Seems suspiciously like the Blacks. In which case Ludo would be ideal as an agent in place, keeping them up-to- date with Ministry activities. The mealy-mouthed way DD refers to Bagman's innocence may be instructive. "Not been accused since" is not a ringing endorsement. It's a statement of fact with no opinion attached. Very different to his comprehensive defense of Snape. Berit: > The innocence of three people are being asked here. We know now that > Crouch Jr was indeed a "real" DE. We know for sure that Snape has > been a DE (but don't yet know for sure if he still is), and Ludo? We > don't know for sure whether he really was a DE, and we don't know if > he is now. He is a bigger puzzle than Snape is! Kneasy: I may be nit-picking here, but I don't think that Barty Jr actually admits to being a DE. Certainly he *implies* it very strongly and DD and the rest seem to accept that he is, but when he is describing the events at TQWC he talks of "the DEs" not 'the other DEs'. A very minor point and it probably is of no consequence, but when JKR might be in deception mode it's just the sort of thing I watch out for. I trust you were joking when you consider him a greater puzzle than Snape? That's going a bit far IMO. But he's been ignored for far too long. I did have a pop at him back in the summer (73901) and there is a good post by, I think Talisman (though I may be mis-remembering - it's about time somebody sorted out these files, the search function is rubbish!) even earlier than that, but generally he's escaped close scrutiny, which is very strange - he's a memorable character and a prime candidate for making a re-appearance in a later volume. Take it from me - he's a bad 'un. DE? Maybe - we'll have to see. Kneasy From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Feb 23 12:44:07 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:44:07 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91474 >lot's of snipping< Carol wrote about Tonks' house: The more I think about it, the more I'm certain that, like > most of JKR's favorite characters (not necessarily my own favorites), > she was a Gryffindor. This brings up what is for me, the hardest part of this series. That Gryffindor is the best house to be in, that Slytherins are the bad guys and that Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws are just sort of filler. I'm hoping something will turn this upside down. It's a standard format and certainly is up to JKR. But there are little clues that make it seem things aren't so cut and dried. One of the things that crosses my mind is that Slytherin held the house cup for 6 or 7 years before the trio came to Hogwarts. I can't believe it was done by cheating. (Well, not just cheating.) So there must have must have been some mettle to that group of Slytherins. Out of all the houses, it was Hufflepuff who provided the school champion for the Triwizard Tournament. I guess I'm really just saying what a lot of us have said already. So I'll add two more knuts and sign off. 1. Can't you imagine Snape dealing with someone like Tonks in Slytherin? 2. I can picture Snape sitting at the head table muttering to the sorting hat, "Crabbe, Goyle, Malfoy and Knott....You can't put all of them in my house!!!" Potioncat, who hopes she hasn't made too many spelling errors and has to get children off to school. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Feb 23 13:05:09 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:05:09 -0000 Subject: Not letting Harry and Hermione face the boggart was unfair (was: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: HOW many classmates?) In-Reply-To: <20040223075855.38297.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91475 Elihu wrote: > > This would make sense if, in fact, each student only faced the Boggart once. However, allowing Neville face the Boggart twice, while 2 students didn't face it at all, is unfair to those 2 students. If, in fact, there were 29 chances to face the Boggart and 30 students, the most fair way to devide it up would be that 1 doesn't face the Boggart at all, and each of the others faces it once. Lupin sort of evened things out, but I don't think he was concerned about fair. He "says" he thought Harry would bring up LV and that would be too scary for the class. (Is this a time to believe or to not believe a character?) But we aren't told why he skipped Hermione. If I recall, she will fail the Boggart portion of the DADA test. He did however, give Harry and Hermione points for their participation in class. Giving Neville an extra turn works out alright as a sort of payback for being taunted by Snape at the beginning. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Feb 23 13:22:22 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:22:22 -0000 Subject: How many prefects per house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91476 > Carol: > Remus was chosen as prefect in their fifth year and presumably > remained a prefect all three years. As for why James was made Head > Boy, I don't think there's anything mysterious or extraordinary about > it. He was the best student in the school (the highest marks) and > Dumbledore honored him for his academic achievements by making him > Head Boy. I think James' saving Severus from the werewolf had something to do with Dumbledore's decision. Remus, James and Dumbledore are the ones who know what James is being rewarded for, even if the grades and sports are the explanation. Not that Dumbledore has to explain himself. James must have really changed his behavior as well, to have so many people remember him so fondly. Potioncat From CoyotesChild at charter.net Mon Feb 23 14:02:05 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:02:05 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Looking into Parvati's head (Was:Balance of power) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c3fa15$a17f0820$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 91477 > If Harry had been able to enter Parvati's mind, he might very well > have felt her frustration as she struggled with an answer or sensed > her excitement as she remembered the right answer to a difficult > question, but he would not have seen (or heard) the answers because > the legilmens does not read thoughts--unless he could somehow have > looked through her eyes at the answers she was writing on the paper. > But from what we've seen so far of legilmency, Pensieves, and memories > preserved in diaries, the subject of the thought or memory is seen > from the outside. So to me the scene mostly indicates that he still > doesn't understand what legilmency is. > > Carol Iggy here: Then there's the really important one... Harry has never *learned* Legilmency. Just because he occasionally sees through Voldemort's eyes does not mean that he knows the same spells, as has been evidenced a number of times. Besides... if Voldemort were trying to "feed the answers" to Harry, wouldn't he send wrong answers. After all, the more Harry fails in school, the less likely he is to become a greater threat... an Auror. Remember... *We* see things in the terms of books 5, 6, etc... they don't. While we know that the situation will be resolved within two years, the characters in the books don't. Therefore, their plans will be a lot more long-term. Iggy McSnurd From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Feb 23 14:18:59 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:18:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many prefects per house? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200402231518.59478.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 91478 Potioncat: > I think James' saving Severus from the werewolf had something to do > with Dumbledore's decision. I've never considered James a saint for saving Snape. He just saved his neck. If snape had died... all the marauders would be in Trouble, and the school also. Unregistered animagi, to start. Sirius framed with murder (I don't know in which grade) and in this case, being guilty. Remus with blooded hands and fangs, proving *why* werewolfs are dangerous and giving reasons to the anti-werewolf party to ask for 'werewolf containment measures'. And Lily would see James in another light, that's sure, if he had let another student die. But then, after saving him (if it is the truth that he saved him) he might have reconsidered his life and character. Silmariel From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 14:30:16 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:30:16 -0000 Subject: what are the chances... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91479 > Carol: > For the record, I quite agree that she won't have spin-offs. I was > answering the second part of Lisa's question (snipped here) about who > I would like her to write about if she did. OTOH, since she's written > FB and the book on quidditch (title escapes me), there's some hope > that she'll actually write "Hogwarts: A History." If she does, it'll > have a built-in market. > > But again, I was just having fun with the question of who I'd *like* > to see her write about if she told the life story of another character > (or, in an even more unlikely event, retold the whole series from > another perspective). Fun is what we're here for. Snape's story would be a natural; Dumbledore's would, too. "Hogwarts, a History" would be the natural to go along with Quidditch Thorough the Ages and Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Feb 23 14:50:30 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:50:30 -0000 Subject: saving Snape wasHow many prefects per house? In-Reply-To: <200402231518.59478.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91480 > Potioncat wrote: > > I think James' saving Severus from the werewolf had something to do > > with Dumbledore's decision. Silmariel wrote: > I've never considered James a saint for saving Snape. He just saved his neck. > > If snape had died... all the marauders would be in Trouble, and the school also. >snip< > And Lily would see James in another light, that's sure, if he had let another > student die. But then, after saving him (if it is the truth that he saved him) he might have reconsidered his life and character. I think something happened that changed James. If the one look we have of him in the pensieve is characteristic, he was not nice. The prank may have been the turning point. (An "What have we done!" moment.) If he went after Severus without transfiguring, and it seems he did, then he was risking his life too. He may have been trying to save Snape or he may have been trying to save Remus, but either way he saved both. If that event turned him around, then it may have played into the decision to make him Head boy. What bothers me, is that Dumbledore seems to pass off the event as a prank. And quite a lot of readers see it as nothing more than poor judgement. But I think Professor Snape has good reason to dislike and distrust Black. His life was put in danger. I don't think he is being petty in continuing to be angry about it. Wow, this thread has taken a turn! Potioncat From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Feb 23 15:07:38 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:07:38 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Looking into Parvati's head ( was Balance of Power ) In-Reply-To: <000001c3fa15$a17f0820$18667144@Einstein> References: <000001c3fa15$a17f0820$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: <200402231607.38159.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 91481 Iggy McSnurd: > Besides... if Voldemort were trying to "feed the answers" to Harry, > wouldn't he send wrong answers. After all, the more Harry fails in > school, the less likely he is to become a greater threat... an Auror. Ahem, being an Auror would put him in a position of risk, which is perfectly good for Voldemort. It is so easy to be killed 'in action'. No, he would send the correct answers, why not? Why using direct lies that can be detected so that Harry is aware that it's you who is feeding him and how and when you do that? I consider more useful to use thoughts that Harry can believe inserted with care in apropiate moments. As 'Draco deserves the treatment that the marauders gave to Snape'. >Remember... *We* see things in the terms of books 5, 6, etc... they >don't. While we know that the situation will be resolved within two >years, the characters in the books don't. Therefore, their plans will >be a lot more long-term. I suposse Voldemort has short term plans. I understand the kids might have long ones, but Voldemort, after the DoM show? The long term plans started long ago, IMO, and the war is far on its way by now. I see at least one very good example of throwing a gauntlet to your adversary in an early stage of the series, with the public slap in the face to Slytherin during the house cup ceremony at the end of PS/SS. Silmariel From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Feb 23 16:45:14 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:45:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and punishments was Re: saving Snape wasHow many prefects per house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91482 Potioncat: >> What bothers me, is that Dumbledore seems to pass off the event as a prank. And quite a lot of readers see it as nothing more than poor judgement. But I think Professor Snape has good reason to dislike and distrust Black. His life was put in danger. I don't think he is being petty in continuing to be angry about it. << That Dumbledore passed the incident off as a prank is sheer fanon, unless I am overlooking something. Dumbledore's sole comment was that James saved Snape's life. Obviously the Marauders weren't expelled, and maybe Snape thinks that they should have been. But he's not in a position to complain about people being given second chances, is he? Dumbledore doesn't deal much in punishments,but that isn't the same thing as condoning misbehavior. Dumbledore's 'go and sin no more' attitude doesn't sit well with alot of readers, especially where Toadlady is concerned , but it seems to be a central part of his philosophy. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Feb 23 17:11:52 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:11:52 -0000 Subject: Using the Piensive by eye Witnesses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: >>This has probably been brought up, but in PoA, the eye witnesses to Peter Pettigrew being scabbers were HRH, Werewolf Lupin, and Convict Black, who were all considered weak witnesses. Well, we know from later books that the Piensive can withdraw thoughts, memories, etc as they are for further analysis. So why couldn't Dumbledore use the piensive of all of the eye witnesses before Fudge to prove Sirius's innocence and Pettigrew's treason? In fact, why couldn't DD use it on Harry in GoF to prove as an eye witness account that Moldy Voldy was back?<< Snape had already told Fudge that Harry, Hermione and Ron were bewitched by the Confundus Curse. Without Scabbers/Pettigrew, there was no way to prove that their memories hadn't been altered--the Pensieve viewer might behold an objective third party view of events that never took place. By the time Lupin was available to give testimony, Black would have been kissed, anyway. And the Pensieve would also have shown Harry, Ron and Hermione attacking Snape--if they were allowed to be in their right minds, they'd have been expelled. In GoF, Fudge believed that Harry was deranged--so his memories of events would also have been dismissed as delusory. It is also very probable that the Pensieve is a "one of a kind" object and not acceptable as evidence. Pippin From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 17:08:21 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:08:21 -0000 Subject: Using the Piensive by eye Witnesses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91484 --- I have never quite been able to > believe in the Pensieve, anyway - and I think it's really just a plot > device to explain things that happened in the past without lots of > heavy exposition. There are just too many holes in it. You'd think > that the thing would show you what was happening through the > eyes of the witness, but it doesn't - and while it does say in OOP > that Harry couldn't have followed James and Sirius outside > unless Snape does, he sees and hears lots of things that Young > Snape couldn't have. > > Sorry if this is slightly off-topic! On Mugglenet.com, Maline (North Tower) has begun a series of essays on the Pensieve. It's quite interesting. Julie From sophierom at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 17:35:08 2004 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:35:08 -0000 Subject: Mundungus and Crookshanks? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91485 In rereading OotP, I was struck by JKR's description of Mundungus Fletcher: "He had short, bandy legs, long straggly ginger hair and blood shot, baggy eyes ..." (UK ed., 26) Crookshanks also has lots of ginger hair and is described as "a bit bowlegged" (POA, Am. ed., 60). Also, in OotP, as soon as Mundungus starts talking to Harry, Crookshanks, described as a "bandy-legged ginger cat," brushes against Harry's knees. (UK ed., 78) In addition, the name includes "crook," which is basically Mundungus's occupation. I found the similarities in their descriptions to be interesting. Could their be some sort of relationship between these two characters? Since one is supposedly an animal and the other is supposedly a human wizard, I'm not sure what the relationship could be. But the descriptions do make me wonder. Naturally, I could be reading too much into the descriptions. Also, I have to admit that I cheated in my above quote of Mundungus's description ... he was also said to have the "doleful look of a basset hound" (OotP, UK ed., 26). Still, Mundungus has an animal look about him, and he is in close contact with Mrs. Figg, the cat woman. This has probably been written about before, but in my cursory search of the recent archives, I couldn't find anything. Does anyone have any thoughts on the possible relationship between these two characters? Or, could you point me to any posts that have already discussed this? Can't wait for Book 6 so I'll stop obsessing over details! Best, Sophierom From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 18:10:16 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:10:16 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91486 I've been going over the whole "Sirius is dead" thing for a while, and wanted to put everything together. Besides JKR's ominous quote that no one comes back once they are "properly dead" (what is properly dead, anyway?), I've been trying to look for clues as to whether Sirius actually may or may not return. It just doesn't seem right, in a literary sense, to spend all of this time on a character and then trash him before he is fully drawn. So, we know that Peter has told Voldemort that Sirius is an Animagus ("Voldemort will know all about me being an Animagus by now, Wormtail will have told him..."). So, as Sirius says, his "big disguise is useless". Meanwhile, Lucius has seen Sirius in his Animagus form at King's Cross station. He can now be sure that the Weasleys, Moody, Lupin, et al are in contact with Sirius and know of his whereabouts. It's just a matter of time before Lucius leaks his information to the Ministry and/or Voldemort. This puts them all in great danger. And clearly, Dumbledore's plan of Sirius hiding out at Grimmauld Place indefinitely is not working for Sirius. This is not a long-term option for him. He is bored, restless, and sure to become increasingly reckless if this is allowed to continue. This means that Dumbledore and the Order need to come up with a new way of hiding Sirius. How? Perhaps by faking his death. We have already seen, In Book 1(ch. 8, pg. 138 US ed.) "a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death", which can be brewed by combining asphodel and wormwood. So, we know that it is possible to fake Sirius' death in a convincing and realistic way (lovely that Snape will likely be the one to brew this one!). Has Sirius been weighing this option for some time? When Harry asks if he can stay with Sirius at Grimmauld Place if all does not go well at his trial, and he is kicked out of Hogwarts, Sirius' answer is "We'll see." Given that Sirius would love to have some company, not to mention someone who is the closest thing he'll ever get to his old bud James, you would think that Sirius would jump at the possibility. But if Sirius knew of Dumbledore's protection at Privet Drive, his answer would be a definite "no". Even if he had doubts about how comfortable Harry would be at Grimmauld, his answer might be something along the lines of "Well, if you think you'd be happy here..." But he gives Harry a noncommittable answer; exactly the answer one would give if he knew he wasn't going to be around, but couldn't let on. Now, on to the duel between Bellatrix and Sirius in the Dept. of Mysteries. Of course, we are all aware of the mysterious second curse. We all know that Bellatrix cast the first, which Sirius dodged. But then "the second jet of light hit him squarely in the chest." Not "Bellatrix's curse", not even a "green jet" which would surely be an AK and would seal Sirius' fate. Just "a second jet". Given that Dumbledore has already appeared, and all of the Death Eaters except for Bellatrix have begun to run for it, who is it that took the time to stop running from Dumbledore to cast a curse at Sirius while he was already being held off by Bellatrix? Perhaps it wasn't one of the Death Eaters, but an OOP member, simply giving Sirius a convenient nudge. After Sirius takes his long, dramatic arc through the veil, Lupin is the one to tell Harry that Sirius is surely gone (There's nothing you can do, Harry...It's too late, Harry..."). How does Lupin know what the veil is? How in the world would a werewolf (the most outside of outsiders) have any idea what is going on in the Department of Mysteries? He wouldn't, unless he was given knowledge of the veil beforehand. Anyway, I'm still working out bits and pieces of this. Some things won't be answered until much later (like, "where is Sirius' body?" and "how quickly could the Order put the plan into effect when they found they had to run to the MOM to save Harry?"). But I do think this is the Order's best way of keeping Sirius hidden and safe. As they say, fire away... :: Entropy :: From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 23 19:15:07 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:15:07 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and punishments was Re: saving Snape wasHow many prefects per house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91487 > Pippin writes: > That Dumbledore passed the incident off as a prank is sheer > fanon, unless I am overlooking something. Dumbledore's sole > comment was that James saved Snape's life. Obviously the > Marauders weren't expelled, and maybe Snape thinks that they > should have been. But he's not in a position to complain about > people being given second chances, is he? > Pip!Squeak: The timeline is vague, but it's possible that the incident happened after Sirius had run away from home. In which case Dumbledore might well have paused before expelling him - a boy with no home, no family, no wand and no prospects of legitimate employment could easily have concluded that his future lay in the criminal side of the WW. A Sirius who was kept in school and living with the Potters during the holidays had much more chance of staying out of Knockturn Alley. Pip!Squeak From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Mon Feb 23 19:07:48 2004 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:07:48 -0000 Subject: Mundungus and Crookshanks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: Sophirom wrote: > This has probably been written about before, but in my cursory > search of the recent archives, I couldn't find anything. Does anyone > have any thoughts on the possible relationship between these two > characters? Or, could you point me to any posts that have already > discussed this? I too am interested in the similarity of their descriptions; I know the idea of them being one-and-the-same has popped up online before, but Mundungus and Crookshanks are in the same room at the same time (OotP, when Fred and George try to levitate a pot of soup the table and spill it, I'm sorry I can't be more specific). I've always been curious if Mrs. Figg has cats or *kneazles*, since they more or less look the same. Given that Figg had her cats keeping watch over Harry, its highly possible she keeps kneazles. I know someone suggested that the cat that Mrs. Figg tripped over and broke her hip might have been Crookshanks (a half-Kneazle/half-cat mix), which would have led to him being stuck in the shop on Diagon alley until Hermione bought him. I have no idea how this might mix in with Mundungus, and won't bring up the Animangi reproducing possibility. ;) -kg From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 23 20:05:48 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:05:48 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potters - A question References: <1077513893.6288.23364.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001201c3fa48$6e9120a0$5e4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 91489 Elihu wrote: >About the second, I think Voldemort might not have decided to act immediately. I think that when Voldemort did decide >to act, he told Snape, and that was why Snape decided to join Dumbledore. There's a very close correlation in time here, isn't there. Here's a little speculation. Just suppose (and I know that no one mentions it these days) that the theory about Sevvy loving Lily was true (I've wondered out loud about it elsewhere, to the effect that after the "worst memory" incident, he develops a crush on the girl who stood up for him, that his love turns to a sour obsession when she starts going out with his worst enemy, and that he is complicit in the deaths of both sets of Harry's grandparents to get his revenge). Then the prophecy comes along and, after much mulling of it over (or perhaps the vital 3rd occasion on which the Potters defy him), Voldemort decides that the Potters are the ones to go for. They go into hiding, the secret is accidentally put in the hands of the traitor, and Voldemort decides to go to Godric's Hollow with Peter and Snape to do the deed. Snape now has a moral dilemma. Would he rather see his worst enemy (James) dead or the woman he loves (Lily) alive? James or Lily? Death or life? Let's suppose that he chooses life. Instead of going to Godric's Hollow, he goes to Hogwarts and demands to see Dumbledore. Eventually, and with not much time left, Dumbledore makes his appearance and Snape tells him his message. Dumbledore goes to send a rescue party (doesn't go himself, interesting that...), leaving Snape alone. Snape allows himself a little fantasy that Lily is the sole survivor and, hearing who saved her life, flings herself into his arms. But only a little one, he's far too realistic to think that's going to happen. Instead, he realises that he's now a dead man. He has no idea what's going to happen and expects that whether or not Voldemort kills the Potters, he's going to leave Godric's Hollow with "kill Snape" at the top of his to-do list. His only hope is to tell all and hope that the Order can protect him. Extreme personal danger, as Dumbledore points out to the tribunal. When Dumbledore returns, Snape is ready to give him the lot, names, dates, events, plans, everything he can. He's committed to the Order's side now, there's no road back for him. But of course he's failed. Harry is the sole survivor. Lily's dead and Potter's brat survived. He doesn't show it, but he's devastated. 10 years later, Harry's going to get a lot of grief as a result. But for now, he's got to carry on surviving. So he carries on cooperating. Because of Sevvy, the Order is able to round up most of Voldemort's top minions. Noticeably he doesn't try to set the record straight about Sirius (why should he? Peter's dead (serves him right) and dead men tell no tales: Sirius Black's in Azkaban (serves him right) and he'll never get out). And his reward is a teaching post at Hogwarts "What about Defence against the Dark Arts?" "No Severus, given everything I really don't think that would do, do you? We do however need a good Potions master, and I understand you recently took your mastership with the Guild" Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From ftlauz789 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 20:06:53 2004 From: ftlauz789 at yahoo.com (ftlauz789) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:06:53 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91490 Very good theory! I have but one problem... <<>> How does Lucious know of his wereabouts? Kreacher couldn't tell him where Sirius was because he was not the secret-keeper for the order...it says that somewhere towards the end of the book. So far, I don't think Voldemort can know where the Head Quarters of the Order of the Phoenix are. From sawsan_issa at earthlink.net Mon Feb 23 20:25:52 2004 From: sawsan_issa at earthlink.net (sawsan_issa) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:25:52 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91491 > :: Entropy :: wrote: > I've been going over the whole "Sirius is dead" thing for a while, and > wanted to put everything together. Besides JKR's ominous quote that no > one comes back once they are "properly dead" (what is properly dead, > anyway?), I've been trying to look for clues as to whether Sirius > actually may or may not return. It just doesn't seem right, in a > literary sense, to spend all of this time on a character and then > trash him before he is fully drawn. > > So, we know that Peter has told Voldemort that Sirius is an Animagus > ("Voldemort will know all about me being an Animagus by now, Wormtail > will have told him..."). So, as Sirius says, his "big disguise is > useless". Meanwhile, Lucius has seen Sirius in his Animagus form at > King's Cross station. He can now be sure that the Weasleys, Moody, > Lupin, et al are in contact with Sirius and know of his whereabouts. > It's just a matter of time before Lucius leaks his information to the > Ministry and/or Voldemort. This puts them all in great danger. And > clearly, Dumbledore's plan of Sirius hiding out at Grimmauld Place > indefinitely is not working for Sirius. This is not a long-term > option for him. He is bored, restless, and sure to become increasingly > reckless if this is allowed to continue. > > This means that Dumbledore and the Order need to come up with a new > way of hiding Sirius. How? > > Perhaps by faking his death. We have already seen, In Book 1(ch. 8, > pg. 138 US ed.) "a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the > Draught of Living Death", which can be brewed by combining asphodel > and wormwood. So, we know that it is possible to fake Sirius' death > in a convincing and realistic way (lovely that Snape will likely be > the one to brew this one!). > > Has Sirius been weighing this option for some time? When Harry asks if > he can stay with Sirius at Grimmauld Place if all does not go well at > his trial, and he is kicked out of Hogwarts, Sirius' answer is "We'll > see." Given that Sirius would love to have some company, not to > mention someone who is the closest thing he'll ever get to his old bud > James, you would think that Sirius would jump at the possibility. But > if Sirius knew of Dumbledore's protection at Privet Drive, his answer > would be a definite "no". Even if he had doubts about how comfortable > Harry would be at Grimmauld, his answer might be something along the > lines of "Well, if you think you'd be happy here..." But he gives > Harry a noncommittable answer; exactly the answer one would give if he > knew he wasn't going to be around, but couldn't let on. > > Now, on to the duel between Bellatrix and Sirius in the Dept. of > Mysteries. Of course, we are all aware of the mysterious second > curse. We all know that Bellatrix cast the first, which Sirius > dodged. But then "the second jet of light hit him squarely in the > chest." Not "Bellatrix's curse", not even a "green jet" which would > surely be an AK and would seal Sirius' fate. Just "a second jet". > Given that Dumbledore has already appeared, and all of the Death > Eaters except for Bellatrix have begun to run for it, who is it that > took the time to stop running from Dumbledore to cast a curse at > Sirius while he was already being held off by Bellatrix? Perhaps it > wasn't one of the Death Eaters, but an OOP member, simply giving > Sirius a convenient nudge. > > After Sirius takes his long, dramatic arc through the veil, Lupin is > the one to tell Harry that Sirius is surely gone (There's nothing you > can do, Harry...It's too late, Harry..."). How does Lupin know what > the veil is? How in the world would a werewolf (the most outside of > outsiders) have any idea what is going on in the Department of > Mysteries? He wouldn't, unless he was given knowledge of the veil > beforehand. > > Anyway, I'm still working out bits and pieces of this. Some things > won't be answered until much later (like, "where is Sirius' body?" and > "how quickly could the Order put the plan into effect when they found > they had to run to the MOM to save Harry?"). But I do think this is > the Order's best way of keeping Sirius hidden and safe. > > As they say, fire away... > > Sawsan here: Entropy, what you have explained is well thought out and I love it. I am worried, however, at JKR's reaction to killing Sirius. She was depressed that she did it; which leads me to believe that he is dead, however, you are quite right about it not being complete enough. I have thought about it as well. The thing i thought of was this; what if death was like Azkaban? Sirius, in human form, would have never escaped it, but as a dog, he could. I know dogs and everything else living dies, but we do not know much about the veil. My thought is that the veil is not death itself, but perhaps a porthole. I don't think everyone whoever died in the WW had been thrown into the arch of the veil. Maybe since Sirius fell through as a human, he might be able to come out as a dog? Too far fetched I know, but it occurred to me when I was rewatching an old Brad Pitt movie called "Cool World." There are lots of possibilities, that was just one I thought of because of watching the movie and reading PoA at the same time. I would love to think Sirius is going to come back; but I do not think he will. His death is, however, very strange indeed. JKR seems to count him as really dead, though, so I don't want to get my hopes up. Sawsan who cries whenever she rereads Sirius's death. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Feb 23 21:20:19 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:20:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and punishments was Re: saving Snape wasHow many prefects per house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91492 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Dumbledore doesn't deal much in punishments,but that isn't the > same thing as condoning misbehavior. > > Dumbledore's 'go and sin no more' attitude doesn't sit well with > alot of readers, especially where Toadlady is concerned , > but it seems to be a central part of his philosophy. > Jen: And a philosophy honed and updated over 150 years! Dumbledore has witnessed many changes over the course of a long lifetime. He knows there are no guarantees, that one generation's prize student can become the next generation's Dark Lord; that life is cyclical, not linear. After seeing almost every form of creation and degradation in the human experience--I don't think he's tallying up the balance sheet at the end of the day. From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 21:17:56 2004 From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (JuHu) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:17:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Fear Factor Message-ID: <20040223211756.75758.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91493 The concept of fear has been quite constant throughout this series, and I'm wondering how it will pan out in the future. The only big "Look at this!" flags have been the fact that Dumbledore is the only one Voldy ever feared, and this comment from Lupin: " '...I didn't think it a good idea for Lord Voldemort to materialize in the staffroom. I imagined people would panic.' " 'I didn't think of Voldemort,' said Harry honestly. 'I - I remembered those dementors.' " 'I see,' said Lupin thoughtfully. 'Well, well . . . I'm impressed.' He smiled slightly at the look of surprise on Harry's face. 'That suggests that what you fear most of all is - fear. Very wise, Harry.' "Harry didn't know what to say to that, so he drank some more tea." ("Flight of the Fat Lady" U.S. 155-156) Now we know it's common for JKR to drop hints and hastily change the subject. The only reason this remark has stood out to me is because, every time I reread PoA, I wonder, "How does Lupin conclude that dementors are the embodiment of fear?" I would argue them to be depression, or maybe whatever your concept of hell, but fear? I've never been able to make the leap with him in his reasoning. Fortunately, Snape wanders in and distracts us. But this isn't the only mention of fear. " 'Well - I don' like sayin' the name is I can help it. No one does.' " 'Why not?' " 'Gulpin' gargoyles, Harry, people are still scared.' " ("The Keeper of the Keys" U.S. 54) "Hermione looked very frightened, but she had a word of comfort. " 'Harry, everyone says Dumbledore's the only one You-Know-Who was ever afraid of. With Dumbledore around, You-Know-Who won't touch you...' " ("The Forbidden Forest" U.S. 260) I could go on and on. The panic Hogwarts was in with the Heir of Slytherin on the loose. The alarm when Sirius Black was first on the loose. The terror at the World Cup. The hysteria when the Death Eater's escaped Azkaban. Fear seems to be one of Voldy's most powerful weapons. But could it also be his Achilles heel? It worked against him when Dumbledore turned up at the Department of Mysteries. The Death Eaters were doing pretty well against the Order members until they tried to run for it. Only Bellatrix seemed oblivious to his arrival, due to fighting her cousin, and is the only one who escaped. Where is JKR going with this? Does Harry have to figure out some way to make Voldemort fear him? Right now, Harry's just an increasingly annoying kid who would be hardly worth his time, if only he'd stop thwarting his hostile take-over bid. Perhaps she's hoping the rest of the WW will take a hint and begin to fear fear. What are everyone's thoughts? "Fire away, then Rita." JuHu, who wonders if there's enough canon quoted on this board to recreate the books. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 21:34:33 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:34:33 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91494 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ftlauz789" wrote: > Very good theory! I have but one problem... > > << the > Ministry and/or Voldemort. This puts them all in great danger. And > clearly, Dumbledore's plan of Sirius hiding out at Grimmauld Place > indefinitely is not working for Sirius.>>> > > How does Lucious know of his wereabouts? Kreacher couldn't tell him > where Sirius was because he was not the secret-keeper for the > order...it says that somewhere towards the end of the book. So far, > I don't think Voldemort can know where the Head Quarters of the > Order of the Phoenix are. I don't believe Lucius knows where Sirius is hiding. However, Lucius saw him (in animagus form) at King's Cross station with the rest of the Order while they were seeing the kids onto the Hogwarts Express. Lucius now knows that information regarding Sirius' whereabouts may be gotten by questioning most of the Weasleys, Lupin, Moody, etc. This information could prove very valuable to either the Ministry or Voldemort. My guess is that Lucius would be happy to hand Sirius over to the highest bidder (or, whoever can promise Lucius the best advantage). If the Order can convince everyone that Sirius is dead, though, then Lucius has lost his advantage. What better way to provide proof of Sirius' "death" than to have it happen in front of a bunch of Death Eaters (for Voldemort) in the middle of the Ministry of Magic (for Fudge)? :: Entropy :: :: Entropy :: From belijako at online.no Mon Feb 23 21:34:54 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:34:54 -0000 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91495 Kneasy wrote: Certainly Bagman is not to be trusted, but whether or not he is (was) a DE is a moot point. There is a danger that we may fall into the habit of thinking that anyone who supports Voldy must be a DE. Berit replies: I'm with you on this one. I shouldn't have used the word "DE". I really didn't want to speculate on exactly what "grade" of evil or untrustworthy Bagman is/was. My point was, in your words: "He knew damn well which side it [the info] was going to." Kneasy wrote: Bagman also states that "...old Rookwood was a friend of my dad's." Now that's interesting. For a start it defies credibility that Ludo hadn't at some time heard Rookwood sounding off with his views on Voldy, mudbloods and the like. Berit replies: Thanks! A very good observation! Kneasy wrote: I trust you were joking when you consider him a greater puzzle than Snape? Berit replies: I guess I was :-) Or rather; used the wrong wording. I think I tried to say that we know less about Bagman than we know about Snape. At least we know for sure Snape used to be a DE; his past is partly known; Bagman is totally in the blue; both his past and his present standing. I'd also like to comment on Catlady and annemehr's posts (#91445 and #91461) that I don't believe Bagman was in on Voldemort and Barty Crouch Jr's plan for the Triwizard Tournament. There is no evidence to suggest anyone else was in on the secret; just Voldie, Barty Jr and Wormtail. Remember, not even "faithful" DE's like Malfoy knew anything about what was going on till the mark burned on their arms, summoning them to Voldie's side. When Barty is under the influence of veritaserum, he doesn't mention Bagman with one word. Had he been an important accomplice, setting up the Triwizard Tournament to catch Harry, I'm sure he would have been mentioned some way or another. I don't want to speculate too much on how "important" or "evil" Bagman is/was, as canon doesn't give us any hints or information on the subject. I just wanted to voice the fact that there is canon evidence to suggest he is not to be trusted. Berit http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 21:43:48 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:43:48 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91496 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sawsan_issa" wrote: > Entropy, what you have explained is well thought out and I love it. I am worried, however, at JKR's reaction to killing Sirius. She was depressed that she did it Entropy: I'm not completely convinced of her reaction. It could be just part of the story to make you believe Sirius' death. Or, she could have been very sad for Harry, who will certainly not be privvy to any Order plot to fake Sirius' death. He does truly believe that Sirius is dead and will have to deal with this loss whether it is real or not. In any case, "properly dead" keeps ringing in my ears. I think if she wanted us to know that Sirius was "properly dead," she would have provided better proof, rather than leaving us with lots of ambiguity. :: Entropy :: From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 22:22:58 2004 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:22:58 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91497 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > I've been going over the whole "Sirius is dead" thing for a while, and > wanted to put everything together. Whizbang here: I really like this idea. But who do suggest went through the veil? From sophierom at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 22:29:48 2004 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:29:48 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91498 Entropy wrote: This means that Dumbledore and the Order need to come up with a new way of hiding Sirius. How? Perhaps by faking his death. In a later post, Entropy adds: In any case, "properly dead" keeps ringing in my ears. I think if she wanted us to know that Sirius was "properly dead," she would have provided better proof, rather than leaving us with lots of ambiguity. Sophierom: Entropy, I also like your theory but I'm torn ... as much as I agree with your above statement, and as much as I would like to see Sirius alive, I feel like it would be a little cheap of JKR to pull Sirius out of a hiding place somewhere and say, "Tada! He's been alive all this time!" I wonder if the ambiguity surrounding Sirius's death is instead meant to make us feel like Harry: we're always hoping, beyond all hope, that Sirius isn't really dead. Although Harry's seen death before (his parents, Cedric), I think Sirius's death really dealt Harry a deep, personal blow. When Harry's parents died, he was too young to remember much of their deaths. When Cedric died, Harry was upset, but I think his distress came from seeing someone cruelly murdered, not losing someone close to him. But with Sirius's death, Harry, for the first time, really experiences the death of someone close to him. And this death is so unexpected. At least, I sure didn't expect it. Sirius was confident; he seemed so strong, so invincible as he was fighting Bellatrix. And boom, he's gone. Harry can't believe, so he searches out Sir Nick, he talks into the mirror that Sirius gave him ... but in the end, none of this works. We can't believe it, so perhaps we look for clues that he might really be hiding, lurking in one of the great plot surprises that JKR inevitably provides. And maybe you're right; maybe he will turn up again. I just think that if it does turn out that Sirius has faked his own death, we'll have been let off easy. Sometimes people do die unexpectedly. I'm always scared of that in my own life. And in those cases, the dead don't come back, at least not in our physical world. I know Harry's had a rough life, and he deserves some happiness and good fortune. I just wonder if JKR should provide it to him in this way. I would tend to interpret the "properly dead comment" as a way to explain why there are ghosts. Sir Nicholas suggests that he didn't die properly when he explains that "I know nothing of the secrets of death, Harry, for I chose my feeble imitation of life instead" (OotP, UK ed., 759). One last reason I think it would be wrong of JKR to fake Sirius's death: it would mean that Dumbledore and the Order (Lupin and Sirius, most prominently) would once again be keeping essential information from Harry. Dumbledore spends a whole chapter basically apologizing to Harry for keeping him out of the loop about the prophecy. He watches Harry suffer and blame himself for Sirius's death. I don't care how strategically important Sirius is ... all of the father figures in Harry's life (DD, Lupin, Sirius) will be betraying his trust, and I just can't believe JKR would do that. Most of my "evidence" is an emotional reaction ... but I'd like to think that these feelings, combined with the major themes of the series, as well as the canon we already have (many characters say that Sirius is not coming back), suggest that Sirius did not fake his death. Still, very interesting and creative theory, Entropy. Thanks! Sophierom From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 22:46:07 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:46:07 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whizbang" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" > wrote: > > I've been going over the whole "Sirius is dead" thing for a while, > and > > wanted to put everything together. > > Whizbang here: I really like this idea. But who do suggest went > through the veil? It was Sirius who went through the veil. But, since we don't know much about it, we don't really know what "going through the veil" means. Lupin tells Harry that Sirius is dead because he went through the veil, and everyone seems to believe this. No one, apart from the secretive wizards who work at the Dept. of Mysteries, however, actually knows much about what the veil is or how it works. Perhaps the veil (as evidenced by it's placement in the amphitheater-style room) is simply a means of Department of Mysteries wizards to investigate death. :: Entropy :: From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 22:50:28 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:50:28 -0000 Subject: Harry's protection and Ron's wand (WAS Re: AK and victims' remains) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91500 Susanne: I always thought the above event [Lockhart's memory spell backfiring] had nothing to do with Harry's powers or protection, and everything with Lockhart using Ron's broken wand, which has been seen to malfunction in similar ways before. Ravenclaw Bookworm: Susanne, the other times we have seen Ron's wand misfire, it usually redirected the spell onto himself - slugs being the most dramatic example. It gave Ron trouble, but I don't remember it causing destruction. > Jo Serenadust: > I actually think that this time, canon is pretty straightforward > about the reason the tunnel collapses and Lockhart loses his memory. > As Ravenclaw Bookworm said, Ron's wand backfiring hadn't caused > destruction before Gilderoy L. used it. However we should remember > that Ron had not ever tried to use it in a confined (and unstable?) > space before and more importantly, Ron is only a second year wizard > with a second-hand wand at the time of the COS events. Lockhart is > a fully trained wizard who, while he may be magically inept at DADA > and healing charms, is a master at powerful memory charms. This > fact is the entire justification for his success in taking credit > for the accomplishments of many other wizards and witches. Since he > tried to Obliviate both Harry and Ron at once with Ron's feeble, > spellotaped wand, I can easily accept that the power of the charm he > attempted to cast was enough to result in the tunnel's collapse as > well as his near total memory loss. I just don't think that JKR > left much wiggle room here. Carol: Just a small addition to Jo Serenadust's explanation, which I agree with: Ron's wand backfires against its user, regardless of whether that person is Ron or someone else. In previous scenes (the slugs, for example), the user is Ron. In the Chamber of Secrets scene, the user is Lockhart. So there's no need to bring in a protective charm on Harry to explain the backfiring (or the collapse of the tunnel, which Jo has IMO convincingly explained). Carol From t.forch at mail.dk Mon Feb 23 22:57:58 2004 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:57:58 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040223235507.04169d60@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 91501 At 18:10 23-02-04 +0000, you wrote: >I've been going over the whole "Sirius is dead" thing for a while, and >wanted to put everything together. Besides JKR's ominous quote that no >one comes back once they are "properly dead" (what is properly dead, >anyway?), I've been trying to look for clues as to whether Sirius >actually may or may not return. I can't help wondering what other death of a significant character Rowling would have been crying over during her writing of OotP ... Or is everything she has said about the death in OotP a part of a cover-up she has invented to fool her readers? I think the treatment in that is reasonably thorough - even if I say so myself ;-) /Troels From CindyJ2 at cox.net Mon Feb 23 21:19:39 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:19:39 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Faking Sirius' Death? References: Message-ID: <000e01c3fa52$bf193b70$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91502 > :: Entropy :: wrote: > I've been going over the whole "Sirius is dead" thing for a while, and > wanted to put everything together. Besides JKR's ominous quote that no > one comes back once they are "properly dead" (what is properly dead, > anyway?), I've been trying to look for clues as to whether Sirius > actually may or may not return. Well, I think he's gone... There's a number of JKR quotes out there about how his death is sudden, arbritrary, and senseless. Here's one: "I think what I was trying to do with the death in this book was show how very arbitrary and sudden death is. This is a death where you didn't have a big death bed scene. It happened almost accidentally and that is one of the very cruel things about death and they're now in a war situation where that really does happen, where one minute you're talking to your friend and the next minute he's gone. It's so shocking and so inexplicable. "Where did they go?" I found it upsetting to write, because I knew what it would mean to Harry." Sawsan wrote: >My thought is that the veil is not death itself, but perhaps a porthole. I don't >think everyone whoever died in the WW had been thrown into the arch of >the veil. I kind of thought it was an execution chamber... If a witch or wizard were to be executed, they'd be tossed through the veil. I have nothing to support this, but it seems to make sense. Cindy From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Feb 23 23:08:45 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:08:45 -0000 Subject: HOW many classmates?/ Are there an equal number of students in each house? In-Reply-To: <20040221200844.4899.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91503 Ffred: I get the impression from the books that once JKR had said publicly that there are around 1000 students at Hogwarts, all the references to numbers (not only this one, which I hadn't noticed before, but also the Yule Ball, the exam scene, etc) are all written with that in mind. <<< Melz: For Harry's year, there should be 5 boys and 5 girls in his house... right? Logically, wouldn't that mean that there are 40 in each year, and around 280 students in the school...? " The "number of students" argument is one of the oldest on this board and sometimes most contentious. The Harry Potter Lexicon has a good pr?cis of the arguments for all sides. I am one of the principals of a middle number between 450 and 500. The most numerous party is the "about 300" party. I think this is way too small for a viable wizarding society, and there are a number of canon hints for a larger number, but plenty of evidence for the smaller number, too. The notion I wanted to argue against is the "5 boys, 5 girls in each house/ each year" argument. There is strong evidence against it and only assuming for it. We're pretty sure there's five boys in Gryffindor in Harry's year. If there's more in another room, we haven't heard about them, and we should have. We've only heard of three girls: Hermione, Lavender, and Parvati. We don't know if there's all there is or if there's more, and ****we know nothing about other Houses or other years.**** I say we absolutely can't make any assumptions about any other House or year. The Sorting Hat says that it will look in your head and "put you where you ought to be." No allocation. No quota. No ten per house per year. The Hat puts students where they should go based on their personalities and traits, and lets the chips fall where they may. How could it do anything else? We know a magical quill writes down the name of a magical child when he or she is born, and those children are invited to Hogwarts when they turn 11. Over time the number will average out, but there's room for variation from year to year. If you accept there's no quotas, then a lot of things are possible. It seems intuitive that there are a lot more "ordinary" kids (Hufflepuffs) than brainy Ravenclaws, heroic Gryffindors, or ruthless Slytherins. There's no evidence one way or the other. And you have to wonder why a mere 300 students study in that enormous castle. There's really a problem with any number you can come up with. Using usual parent/child proportions, I came up with a wizard population of only about 4,000 if there's only 300 students, not nearly enough to support a Quidditch league, Diagon Alley, Bertie Bott's, Gladrags, Flourish and Blott's, the _Daily Prophet_, and so on and so on. JKR's, shall we say, imprecisions are going to fuel this forever. Jim Ferer From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Feb 23 23:27:12 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:27:12 -0000 Subject: Justice distorted (was: Re: the mirror of erised fulfilled?) In-Reply-To: <20040223071309.29484.qmail@web61005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Partha Mukhopadhyay wrote: Partha: > Secondly, shouldn't priori incantatem (spelling?) have > shown that Sirius Black had not indeed blown apart the > street full of Muggles....and Peter Pettigrew? Figured > that might be a case of the PI spell being a recent > invention, if you can think of spells as technologies. > Geoff: I believe that the innocence of Sirius Black was never even taken on board at the time of the event. In the UK, we have had a number of cases in the last few years where there have been miscarriages of justice; the wrong people have been jailed because the police misinterpreted evidence, ignored evidence and sometimes invented evidence. Why? Because there was a public outcry demanding that the police do their job and find the offender(s). The police want to show that they are in control and doing something so they rush the case to try to produce a result and the bodged results have only come to light years later, often after deterined efforts by friends and relatives. This is obviously echoed in the Wizarding World where we are told that some folk were packed off to Azkaban without a proper trial. Sirius was among these; there was enough circumstancial evidence to incriminate him - compounded by Peter's words and actions. Fudge in particular has shown himself to be willing to manipulate the truth to present himself and the Ministry in a good light which helps to consolidate his power base and conversely unwilling to initiate any steps to confirm evidence put forward with which he does not agree. Look at his behaviour at the end of GOF as an example. He seems to be prepared to deliberately ignore methods of checking on facts if they are going to undermine the stance he takes. Umbridge is allowed to act as the official mouthpiece of Fudge at Hogwarts and in so doing hide the looming danger posed by the return of Voldemort. The Daily Prophet adds to this by its scurrilous campaign against Dumbledore and Harry. No consideration is given that they might be right. Here, we are seeing the kind of repression, distorion of the truth and suppression of a real justice system which has so often occurred uinder a totalitarian state in the past. From marshamoon at charter.net Mon Feb 23 23:37:05 2004 From: marshamoon at charter.net (Marsha) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:37:05 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91505 Entropy writes: "It was Sirius who went through the veil. But, since we don't know much about it, we don't really know what "going through the veil" means... " Very true. You've written a well constructed theory, and I'd like to throw a little additional JKR type astronomical "name" information into the mix. Sirius, the Dog Star, is the brightest star in the sky, but it is actually part of a binary star system in which two stars exist; Sirius A and Sirius B. One star, a white dwarf, is dimmer and less bright than the other. Until the last century, it was unknown and hidden behind the brighter star. Given JKRs propensity for plot-associated prophetic names, I've been wondering if a Sirius B will eventually be revealed to the readers as a substitute or reincarnation or alter-ego of Sirius. Or perhaps, dogs, like cats, have more than one life? Marsha From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Tue Feb 24 00:08:43 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:08:43 -0000 Subject: The Animagus Black (was: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91506 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: >> I've been going over the whole "Sirius is dead" thing for a while, and wanted to put everything together. Snip..... >> Now, on to the duel between Bellatrix and Sirius in the Dept. of Mysteries. Of course, we are all aware of the mysterious second curse. We all know that Bellatrix cast the first, which Sirius dodged. But then "the second jet of light hit him squarely in the chest." Not "Bellatrix's curse", not even a "green jet" which would surely be an AK and would seal Sirius' fate. Just "a second jet". Snip.... Inge: One thing that has kept me wondering is Bellatrix' words to Voldemort later when she tries to explain why she - and the rest of the DE's once again let Harry get away: "Master, I am sorry, I knew not. I was fighting the Animagus Black!" sobbed Bellatrix... "Master, you should know-" - and here she is - dang - interrupted by Voldemorts: "Be quiet, Bella!" Now - what *I* want to know is 1) What is it that Bellatrix "knew not" ? 2) Why does she refer to Sirius as "The Animagus Black" instead of simply Sirius Black? Is it because 'the other' (Regulus) is still around somewhere and she doesn't want the names mixed up? 3) What is it that she thinks her Master should know but doesn't get the chance to say before he interrupts her? Inge From pjcousins at btinternet.com Tue Feb 24 00:16:07 2004 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:16:07 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91507 > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > >::Entropy:: >entropymail starting with post #91486 > Phil (confusinglyso) You have covered some of the ideas I posted on some months back but your post is much better written and has justifiably elicited more responses. I think Sirius' death is faked and I also think that the Weasleys in the Order, apparently missing from DoM battle are in fact on the other side of the Veil, to receive Sirius. I will list my earlier post numbers so that any linked threads can be followed. #76403 #77937 #83373 with some flippant ideas #83734 the Veil is a 2Dimensional object with 3D capabilities #83946 #85269 if really are dead people beyond Veil. I find the earlier scene at the Veil interesting, particularly where Harry thinks he hears Ron beyond the Veil. This I have interpreted in 2 different ways in the posts listed. The general consensus on this site is that JKR said in an interview that Sirius is really dead. Is it allowed for fans to be misled by interviews ? I don't mind if Sirius is dead or alive but from book alone, the true canon, the reader cannot be certain either way on Sirius' health. Phil From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 00:23:06 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:23:06 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91508 > The general consensus on this site is that JKR said in an interview > that Sirius is really dead. Is it allowed for fans to be misled by > interviews ? > I don't mind if Sirius is dead or alive but from book alone, the true > canon, the reader cannot be certain either way on Sirius' health. > > > Phil Could you please give me a link to this interview? Because I only remember her talking about her reaction to writing about Sirius' death. Needless to say, I really hope that this theory is true. :o) Thanks! Alla From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Feb 24 00:39:39 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:39:39 -0000 Subject: The Animagus Black (was: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91509 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > One thing that has kept me wondering is Bellatrix' words to Voldemort > later when she tries to explain why she - and the rest of the DE's > once again let Harry get away: "Master, I am sorry, I knew not. I was > fighting the Animagus Black!" sobbed Bellatrix... "Master, you should > know-" - and here she is - dang - interrupted by Voldemorts: "Be > quiet, Bella!" > > Now - what *I* want to know is > > 1) What is it that Bellatrix "knew not" ? Jen: She 'knew not' that the prophecy orb was already broken. LV finds this out in the sentence prior. Inge: > 2) Why does she refer to Sirius as "The Animagus Black" instead of > simply Sirius Black? Is it because 'the other' (Regulus) is still > around somewhere and she doesn't want the names mixed up? Jen: I thought this was odd wording, too. There was an interesting thread back in Aug. that starts here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79887 Some people thought it was a way for Bella to distance herself from her cousin. I thought the ambiguous wording was a way to distinguish Sirius from the other Blacks still alive, like Andromeda and possibly Regulus, like you said. Inge: > > 3) What is it that she thinks her Master should know but doesn't get > the chance to say before he interrupts her? Jen: A few sentences later she says: "But Master--he is here--he is below- -" (US chap. 36, p. 812) Unless the interrupted sentence was about something totally different, Bella is trying to tell him DD is below. Maybe, this is a stretch, but the 'he' she's referring to is actually Sirius and she wants to tell him Sirius fell through the Veil. I wonder if Voldemort knows about the Veil? Seems like something he would want to destroy, given that death phobia he has :). From pjcousins at btinternet.com Tue Feb 24 00:46:17 2004 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:46:17 -0000 Subject: Mars Reflections Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91510 PS/SS The Forbidden Forest page 183 UK edition. 'Look there,' said Hagrid, 'see that stuff shinin' on the ground? Silvery stuff? That's unicorn blood. page 184 Ronan sighed. 'Mars is bright tonight' page 185 'Mars is bright tonight,' Ronan repeated.'Unusually bright' page 185 Bane appears......'Mars is bright tonight,' he said simply. In the Philosopher's Stone HRH are only 11 and as it's JKR's debut novel this 'Mars is bright tonight' phrase may be more humorous than interpreted by Hagrid, and I am suggesting that maybe Harry misheard. Perhaps the two centaurs had sat in some of the unicorn's blood. Then the phrase should be 'My arse is bright tonight' It is a pity that Ron missed this detention because I am sure he would not have let the opportunity to say 'Uranus is bright tonight' go to waste. Phil(osopher) From pjcousins at btinternet.com Tue Feb 24 01:39:13 2004 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 01:39:13 -0000 Subject: Knowing Kneasy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91511 Apologies in advance for some late night rambling. Kneasy can always be relied upon to rejuvenate a discussion. You have proposed in the past that Harry needs someone to open his eyes to the ways of the world. The evil side has had Umbridge (umbrage) and Fudge, since we cannot have Kneasy as next DADA professor, I offer for the good side as DADA Professor Ken Iving, a close friend of Dumbledor's. On a personal note Kneasy, no offence intended, but is Arrowsmith a pseudonym to disassociate yourself from Mundungus Fletcher? If book Six is to have a 'cliff hanger' ending, the obvious danger is the train journey home. The train seems to have only 1 adult, the refreshment seller, except when Lupin was aboard. On Lupin's trip the train stopped for the Dementors to search the carriages for Black. Are there any spells protecting the train ? Ambushing trains has been practiced by all baddies since railways were invented, and JKR has a special spot for trains. Phil From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Tue Feb 24 02:25:51 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:25:51 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91512 I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR on March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information from her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, what would it be? I would ask: Will we be seeing any communication with Sirius in books 6 or 7? Kristen From amani at charter.net Tue Feb 24 03:21:15 2004 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:21:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What question would you ask JK Rowling? References: Message-ID: <006401c3fa85$43ab4cc0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91513 Kristen: I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR on March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information from her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, what would it be? I would ask: Will we be seeing any communication with Sirius in books 6 or 7? Taryn: For the love of God, which Houses were MWPP in?! ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 03:29:06 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 03:29:06 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: <006401c3fa85$43ab4cc0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91514 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" wrote: > Kristen: > I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR on > March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information from > her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, > what would it be? > > I would ask: > Will we be seeing any communication with Sirius in books 6 or 7? > > Taryn: > For the love of God, which Houses were MWPP in?! > Meri: Please, please, please, tell me what the heck is the deal with Snape?! From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 03:38:52 2004 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 03:38:52 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marsha" wrote: > Entropy writes: > "It was Sirius who went through the veil. But, since we don't know > much about it, we don't really know what "going through the veil" > means... " Whizbang: I don't know. Beyond the veil means land of the dead. Dumbledore calls the room the death chamber. Hmmmmm..... Could someone else have gone through the veil? Someone polyjuiced? ~Whiz Marsha writes: > > Sirius, the Dog Star, is the brightest > star in the sky, but it is actually part of a binary star system > > in which two stars exist; Sirius A and Sirius B. One star, a white > dwarf, is dimmer and less bright than the other. Until the last > century, it was unknown and hidden behind the brighter star. Given > JKRs propensity for plot-associated prophetic names, I've been > wondering if a Sirius B will eventually be revealed to the readers > as a substitute or reincarnation or alter-ego of Sirius. > Marsha Whizbang: Or maybe the shade or ghost of Sirius from behind the veil? Maybe this is the best clue about Sirius becoming a ghost. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 24 03:58:53 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 03:58:53 -0000 Subject: Harry's protection and Ron's wand (WAS Re: AK and victims' remains) In-Reply-To: <473939985.20040222152529@msn.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91516 Susanne wrote: If it was really Harry's in-build protection, I would have thought we'd see something similar when Moody put him under the Imperius Curse, or during the graveyard scene in GoF. Bookworm: How do we know Harry's protection didn't deflect the spells in the graveyard? And the Imperious Curse is a forbidden curse because it takes away free will, but it doesn't necessarily directly harm the victim. If no spell can be used on Harry, then Lockhart wouldn't have been able to disolve Harry's arm after the Quidditch game. Maybe the protection senses the intent of the spell caster? We don't know - yet. But Elihu's comparision is worth thinking about. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 24 04:23:02 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:23:02 -0000 Subject: Potters - A question In-Reply-To: <20040222141049.26330.qmail@web21404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk wrote: > Tanya Swaine wrote: > However, this is my question. At that time, Harry would of been 13- 15 > months old. The prophecy was overheard before his birth. Surely it didn't > take LV over a year to figure out who to target. If James and Lily were > not protected by that spell in the year or so leading up to the charm being > cast with Peter as secret keeper, how did they remain safe for so long?" > > Elihu: > About the second, I think Voldemort might not have decided to act immediately. I think that when Voldemort did decide to act, he told Snape, and that was why Snape decided to join Dumbledore. Bookworm: Someone else posted (apologies for not being able to find the post for reference) a theory that when Snape heard the prophecy, or at least the beginning of it, he realized there was hope for him if he tried to leave LV. Using that as his `in', he approached Dumbledore. My theory is that Snape was the eavesdropper in the Hogs Head. He didn't tell LV about the prophecy right away, working instead with Dumbledore. During that year, Dumbledore worked with the Potters and Longbottoms to establish protection charms for their babies. As members of the Order, they would have known that they were in danger anyway, so having this warning gave them time to prepare. When things were ready, Dumbledore sent Snape to tell LV about the (partial) prophecy and the Potters and Longbottoms went into hiding. Personally, I think Dumbledore knew about the change in Secret- Keepers. He never said Sirius Black was or wasn't. His comment was that he had given evidence to that effect. What evidence? To whom? When? Dumbledore may not lie, but he doesn't always tell the whole truth. Ravenclaw Bookworm From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 04:27:56 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:27:56 -0000 Subject: Harry's Eyesight - basilisk protection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91518 > Carri : > So, would his eyeglasses have protected him from the basilisk > stare? Since CofS shows only petrification occuring when seeing the > eyes through something else, for example, water on the floor, mirror > (which are reflections) and a ghost and Collin's CAMERA - not > reflections. Looking THROUGH the lense of the camera protected > Colin from death, so could eyeglasses be a form of protection in > some future appearance of another basilisk? > ~CarriLynne Glasses didn't protect Moaning Myrtle from the basilisk. She wasn't just petrified; she died. And presumably, since her ghost wears glasses and she was coming out of a stall to investigate the presence of a boy in the girls' restroom, she was wearing her glasses when she died. Maybe Harry's glasses are special in some way but I doubt it since he acquired them from Muggles. Carol From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 24 04:49:00 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:49:00 -0000 Subject: what are the chances... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91519 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > > Carol: > > For the record, I quite agree that she won't have spin-offs. I was > > answering the second part of Lisa's question (snipped here) about > who > > I would like her to write about if she did. OTOH, since she's > written > > FB and the book on quidditch (title escapes me), there's some hope > > that she'll actually write "Hogwarts: A History." If she does, it'll > > have a built-in market. > > > > But again, I was just having fun with the question of who I'd *like* > > to see her write about if she told the life story of another > character > > (or, in an even more unlikely event, retold the whole series from > > another perspective). > > Fun is what we're here for. Snape's story would be a natural; > Dumbledore's would, too. > > "Hogwarts, a History" would be the natural to go along with Quidditch > Thorough the Ages and Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. I agree that "Hogwarts, a History" would be fun reading (unless it was written by Professor Binns ) but it doesn't seem likely. A report from CBBC Newsround from October 2002 states: "And if she ever did write an eighth book, then it wouldn't be another adventure, but a book for charity which would be the encyclopedia of the Harry Potter world." ...which would hopefully answer all those niggling questions we have about "why didn't...?" and "who did...?" http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2002/1002- newsround-mzimba.html Ravenclaw Bookworm From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 05:02:10 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 05:02:10 -0000 Subject: Using the Piensive by eye Witnesses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91520 "sawsan_issa" wrote: >>This has probably been brought up, but in PoA, the eye witnesses to Peter Pettigrew being scabbers were HRH, Werewolf Lupin, and Convict Black, who were all considered weak witnesses. Well, we know from later books that the Piensive can withdraw thoughts, memories, etc as they are for further analysis. So why couldn't Dumbledore use the piensive of all of the eye witnesses before Fudge to prove Sirius's innocence and Pettigrew's treason? In fact, why couldn't DD use it on Harry in GoF to prove as an eye witness account that Moldy Voldy was back?<< > Pippin: Snape had already told Fudge that Harry, Hermione and Ron were bewitched by the Confundus Curse. Without Scabbers/Pettigrew, there was no way to prove that their memories hadn't been altered--the Pensieve viewer might behold an objective third party view of events that never took place. By the time Lupin was available to give testimony, Black would have been kissed, anyway. And the Pensieve would also have shown Harry, Ron and Hermione attacking Snape--if they were allowed to be in their right minds, they'd have been expelled. > In GoF, Fudge believed that Harry was deranged--so his memories of events would also have been dismissed as delusory. It is also very probable that the Pensieve is a "one of a kind" object and not acceptable as evidence. Carol: Pippin brings up some good points about why the Pensieve wasn't used at the time to prove Sirius's innocence, and now that he's dead, it may seem to be a moot point, but I think many readers (and Harry) still want to see Sirius's name cleared, so why not use the Pensieve for that purpose? Setting aside Pippin's point about HRH attacking Snape, which might well be a good reason not to use the Pensieve even now, but IMO there's an even better reason not to use it as evidence in this instance: It wouldn't work. I don't think just any wizard can remove a particular thought from his own head. It takes a skilled occlumens like Snape or Dumbledore to do it, and neither Snape nor Dumbledore was present to see Scabbers turn into PP so their memories aren't available for the purpose. Taking a thought from another person's head would no doubt be even more difficult and dangerous if not impossible. So unless Lupin knows enough about occlumency to remove his own memory of the incident (and I don't think he does or he'd have taught Harry occlumency himself), I don't think it would be possible to retrieve a usable memory for Fudge or anyone else to look at, even if they would regard such a memory as convincing evidence. Carol From siskiou at msn.com Tue Feb 24 05:14:20 2004 From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:14:20 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's protection and Ron's wand (WAS Re: AK and victims' remains) In-Reply-To: References: <473939985.20040222152529@msn.com> Message-ID: <551942163.20040223211420@msn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91521 Hi, Monday, February 23, 2004, 7:58:53 PM, scoutmom21113 wrote: > How do we know Harry's protection didn't deflect the spells in the > graveyard? We don't, but he was somewhat affected (IIRC), and the spells weren't immediately deflected. He had to work on it himself. I think *some* of the successes Harry has are his own doing, though I agree that he has a lot of help. > Maybe the protection senses the intent of the spell caster? We > don't know - yet. > But Elihu's comparision is worth thinking about. Sure. As I said before, I'm not ruling it out as a possibility, but don't find it very likely, all things considered. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at msn.com Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 06:51:37 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 06:51:37 -0000 Subject: The Fear Factor In-Reply-To: <20040223211756.75758.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91522 Juhu wrote: The concept of fear has been quite constant throughout this series, and I'm wondering how it will pan out in the future. The only big "Look at this!" flags have been the fact that Dumbledore is the only one Voldy ever feared, and this comment from Lupin: " '...I didn't think it a good idea for Lord Voldemort to materialize in the staffroom. I imagined people would panic.' > " 'I didn't think of Voldemort,' said Harry honestly. 'I - I remembered those dementors.' > " 'I see,' said Lupin thoughtfully. 'Well, well . . . ' I'm impressed.' He smiled slightly at the look of surprise on Harry's face. 'That suggests that what you fear most of all is - fear. Very wise, Harry.' > > The only reason this > remark has stood out to me is because, every time I > reread PoA, I wonder, "How does Lupin conclude that > dementors are the embodiment of fear?" I would argue > them to be depression, or maybe whatever your concept > of hell, but fear? I've never been able to make the > leap with him in his reasoning. > Carol: I know that JKR has said that the Dementors are an embodiment of depression and we read everywhere that they suck all the happiness out of you, but Harry's reaction on his first encounter is sheer terror. He doesn't just turn pale and shake with fear like Ginny, he passes out. Lupin witnessed this display of terror and has some understanding of what Harry felt, both the terror and the shame he felt afterwards because of it. So I think he means that Harry is afraid of being terrified--fear of fear. Or at least, that's what I make of Lupin's words, though I'm not sure about the "very wise" Part. Maybe he's just comforting Harrym making his fear of a similar incident appear to be common sense. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 07:11:43 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:11:43 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91523 "ftlauz789" wrote: How does Lucious know of his [Sirius's] wereabouts? Kreacher couldn't tell him where Sirius was because he was not the secret-keeper for the order...it says that somewhere towards the end of the book. So far, I don't think Voldemort can know where the Head Quarters of the Order of the Phoenix are. Entropy: I don't believe Lucius knows where Sirius is hiding. However, Lucius saw him (in animagus form) at King's Cross station with the rest of the Order while they were seeing the kids onto the Hogwarts Express. Lucius now knows that information regarding Sirius' whereabouts may be gotten by questioning most of the Weasleys, Lupin, Moody, etc. This information could prove very valuable to either the Ministry or Voldemort. My guess is that Lucius would be happy to hand Sirius over to the highest bidder (or, whoever can promise Lucius the best advantage). Carol: Narcissa is Sirius's cousin and probably visited 12 Grimmauld Place in her youth and childhood. She, and possibly Lucius as well, would know that Kreacher was Mr. and Mrs. Black's House Elf. Since Kreacher is apparently bound to remain in the house of the family he served until the last member is dead (or has chosen to do so out of loyalty to his old mistress), and Kreacher is revealing secrets about Sirius, it would be obvious to the Malfoys that Sirius is also at 12 Grimmauld Place. Since they also know (I'm not sure how) that Sirius is in the Order, it wouldn't take much to figure out that 12 Grimmauld Place is also the Headquarters of the Order. The Malfoys could probably apparate right to it. They wouldn't be able to see the house itself or to enter it because the Secret Keeper hadn't personally revealed the secret to them, but they might be able to see people coming out of it. So I think the Order is going to need to change quarters soon. Lucius may be in Azkaban, but he won't remain there long, and he probably told Voldemort what he deduced about the Order Headquarters before he was arrested. As for treacherous little Kreacher, with no more Blacks to serve, he's probably free now. And what would a wretched House Elf loyal to the Blacks do? He'd offer his services to his adored Bellatrix if he can find her, or failing that, to Narcissa--who just happens to be in need of a House Elf with Dobby freed. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 07:36:21 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:36:21 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91524 -> Entropy: > > I'm not completely convinced of her reaction. It could be just part of > the story to make you believe Sirius' death. Or, she could have been > very sad for Harry, who will certainly not be privvy to any Order plot > to fake Sirius' death. He does truly believe that Sirius is dead and > will have to deal with this loss whether it is real or not. > > In any case, "properly dead" keeps ringing in my ears. I think if she > wanted us to know that Sirius was "properly dead," she would have > provided better proof, rather than leaving us with lots of ambiguity. Carol: I think that was the whole point of the mirror incident where Harry is sure he'll be able to talk to Sirius but he can't. Harry knows, and we know, that the reason Sirius doesn't appear is not that he didn't have his mirror with him. The fact that he doesn't appear is as close as we can get without a bldy to proof that he's dead. Carol From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Feb 24 07:46:03 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:46:03 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91525 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote: Kristen: > I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR on > March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information from > her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, > what would it be? > > I would ask: > Will we be seeing any communication with Sirius in books 6 or 7? Geoff: When is Book 6 going to be out? That will hopefully answer a whole heap of questions!! [I hope :-)] Mark you, it will probably open several cans of worms at the same time..... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 08:09:56 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:09:56 -0000 Subject: HOW many classmates?/ Are there an equal number of students in each house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91526 Jim ferer wrote: - > The notion I wanted to argue against is the "5 boys, 5 girls in each > house/ each year" argument. There is strong evidence against it and > only assuming for it. > > We're pretty sure there's five boys in Gryffindor in Harry's year. > If there's more in another room, we haven't heard about them, and we > should have. We've only heard of three girls: Hermione, Lavender, > and Parvati. We don't know if there's all there is or if there's > more, and ****we know nothing about other Houses or other years.**** > I say we absolutely can't make any assumptions about any other House > or year. Carol: Although I agree that five students of each sex per year is a very small number, that's what the evidence in the early books points to. There are ten students in Lupin's boggart lesson (eight get to ridicule their boggart, Harry and Hermione don't, PoA chap. 7) and there are twenty students in the joint Gryffindor/Slytherin flying lesson (SS/PS 140) and twenty pairs of ear muffs in the joint Gryffindor/Hufflepuff herbology lesson in CoS (91). I realize that these examples don't jibe with the thirty DADA students in OoP, but they're nevertheless not assumptions; they're canon. We at least have this much evidence for the two unnamed Gryffindor girls who presumably share a room with Hermione, Parvati and Lavender, but except for the OoP DADA class, there's no evidence whatever of any other Gryffindor boys or girls in Harry's year. As the examples I cited indicate, JKR clearly started out with 280 students, or at any rate, with 40 students for Harry's year, assuming that Ravenclaw has the same number as the other three. It's possible that she decided to increase the number in later books to make it consistent with her remark about the 1000 students in an interview, but it's also possible that the DADA class in OoP contains students from more than one house. I personally think it's just a Flint like the red and gold Prefect badge that's identical to Percy's silver one. Carol From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Feb 24 10:03:47 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:03:47 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200402241103.47152.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 91527 One question: Are thestrals able to cross the Veil? (Not dying or being los in the process, that is) Silmariel From carpenter_walrus at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 00:38:28 2004 From: carpenter_walrus at yahoo.com (carpenter_walrus) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:38:28 -0000 Subject: The Animagus Black (was: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91528 Inge: One thing that has kept me wondering is Bellatrix' words to Voldemort later when she tries to explain why she - and the rest of the DE's once again let Harry get away: "Master, I am sorry, I knew not. I was fighting the Animagus Black!" sobbed Bellatrix... "Master, you should know-" - and here she is - dang - interrupted by Voldemorts: "Be quiet, Bella!" Inge again: Now - what *I* want to know is 1) What is it that Bellatrix "knew not" ? Carpenter: I thought that she didn't know that the prophecy had been destroyed (until Harry - and afterwards, Voldemort - told her in the Atrium), because she had been fighting Sirius. Inge: 2) Why does she refer to Sirius as "The Animagus Black" instead of simply Sirius Black? Is it because 'the other' (Regulus) is still around somewhere and she doesn't want the names mixed up? Carpenter: You know, this whole "Is Sirius Alive" thing is just *killing* me. Having come to terms with his death and its significance on Harry, and in the series overall, I would be *so* angry with JKR if she brought him back to life. And besides, why would she have been bawling to her husband in the kitchen unless he was really dead? But... well, you have a great point here. In fact, it is *Sirius* (and the tapestry) that tell us that Regulus was killed, supposedly by Voldemort himself. We don't technically have any proof; even Sirius doesn't seem to have any proof, as he says something to the effect of "Based on what I was able to find out after the fact..." I don't have the book with me, so please forgive the paraphrasing. So, Sirius doesn't technically know *for sure* that Regulus is dead; he simply has information to that effect, and seems to believe it. Inge: 3) What is it that she thinks her Master should know but doesn't get the chance to say before he interrupts her? Carpenter: Why, that Dumbledore is in the Ministry, of course. ;-) -Carpenter- From redina at silverbloom.net Tue Feb 24 03:34:26 2004 From: redina at silverbloom.net (Dina Lerret) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:34:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040223222901.05c266e0@mail.silverbloom.net> No: HPFGUIDX 91529 At 02/23/2004 09:25 PM, gsanderson at cfl.rr.com wrote: >her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, >what would it be? Could you transfer over ten million dollars to my account? I don't ask for much. Hm, if not that question, then... Will Petunia Dursley have a significant impact in the upcoming books? Dina -- Stuck in the Bowels of Reality: a Bunniqula blog on Oz, LOTR/RPS, HP fanfic and all the other BS in between... http://archive.nu/bunniblog/ From dk59us at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 03:49:45 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 03:49:45 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91530 :: Entropy :: wrote: If the Order can convince everyone that Sirius is dead, though, then Lucius has lost his advantage. What better way to provide proof of Sirius' "death" than to have it happen in front of a bunch of Death Eaters (for Voldemort) in the middle of the Ministry of Magic (for Fudge)? Now, Eustace_Scrubb interjects: Well, I'm not sure that the worst thing to happen to Lucius as a result of the DoM debacle would be that he can no longer sell Sirius to the highest bidder...I mean he's been "detained" by the Ministry (although we all suspect that Draco's right when he says Dad'll be out in no time). The last thing on Fudge's mind just now is Sirius Black,he's just seen LV in the Ministry with his own eyes. Meanwhile, as the apparent leader of the botched prophecy grab, Lucius has just "let Harry Potter thwart" dear old LV yet again, a deed that surely will warrant an unpleasant disciplinary experience when he does escape from Azkaban. If Sirius' death was staged, I kind of doubt it was with Malfoy in mind. Eustace_Scrubb From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 05:03:22 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 05:03:22 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91531 > > Kristen: > > I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR on > > March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information > from > > her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, > > what would it be? > > Antosha: Now, here's the thing: there are a whole slew of questions I'd love to ask that I know Jo wouldn't answer, because they will (hopefully) be resolved in the last two books--the first and third questions above almost certainly fall into that category. I'm a big fan of Joseph Campbell (go see the Joseph Campbell Foundation's site at http:// www.jcf.org, if you don't know who he is), so I might ask her if her novels (individually and as a series) follow the Hero Journey motif that Campbell laid out in Hero with a Thousand Faces by intent, or just because she tells good stories. ;-) Or I might get really specific: is there a significance to the various and varied characters and creatures who share green eyes (Harry and Lily being the most obvious examples), or does she just like that color??? From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 06:25:36 2004 From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:25:36 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Eyesight - basilisk protection? References: Message-ID: <004b01c3fa9f$03fa8680$0600a8c0@HOMESARAH> No: HPFGUIDX 91532 Carol: > Glasses didn't protect Moaning Myrtle from the basilisk. Sarah: She had been crying. If I was in the bathroom stall crying, I would remove my glasses, the better to bury my face in my hands and rub at my eyes. I have no explanation as to why her ghost, then, would be wearing glasses. It is interesting to note though, that the reason she was in the toilet crying in the first place is her glasses. (Well, Olive Hornby teasing her about them.) She mentions the glasses-teasing not once, but twice in the space of her two-paragraph speech explaining to Harry how she died. Sarah From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Tue Feb 24 07:14:16 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:14:16 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91533 > > Kristen: > > I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR on > > March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information > from > > her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, > > what would it be? > > I would ask if there will be a return to the Chamber of Secerts. also will Harry's life a Privet Drive improve now that we know his aunt knows something about WW, or how about the how the fidelius charm works and how powerful are house elves? From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Tue Feb 24 09:54:36 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (jozoed) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:54:36 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91534 > Entropy: > > In any case, "properly dead" keeps ringing in my ears. I think if > she wanted us to know that Sirius was "properly dead," she would have > provided better proof, rather than leaving us with lots of ambiguity. > > > Sophierom: > > I wonder if the ambiguity surrounding Sirius's death is instead > meant to make us feel like Harry: we're always hoping, beyond all > hope, that Sirius isn't really dead. Although Harry's seen death > before (his parents, Cedric), I think Sirius's death really dealt > Harry a deep, personal blow. > > But with Sirius's death, Harry, for the first time, really > experiences the death of someone close to him. And this death is > so > unexpected. At least, I sure didn't expect it. Sirius was > confident; he seemed so strong, so invincible as he was fighting > Bellatrix. And boom, he's gone. Here in the UK JKR has given several interviews describing her reasons for Sirius' death. She said (sorry don't have exact quotes) that she was trying to show that death can be sudden, unexpected, and without reason. She wanted to show how death can happen at the drop of a hat and without warning, and how devastating it can be. I don't think this explanation works if she is planning on bringing Sirius back in a later book... I agree with Sophierom, we are supposed to feel Harry's despair and hope beyond all hope that Siruis isn't really dead. But at the end of the day life is unfair and it is another obstacle that Harry will have to learn to get over. But even with all that from JKR... why the voices behind the veil? *jozoed* From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Feb 24 11:22:09 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:22:09 -0000 Subject: Knowing Kneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91535 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" wrote: > > Apologies in advance for some late night rambling. > > You have proposed in the past that Harry needs someone to open his > eyes to the ways of the world. > The evil side has had Umbridge (umbrage) and Fudge, since we cannot > have Kneasy as next DADA professor, I offer for the good side as DADA > Professor Ken Iving, a close friend of Dumbledor's. > Kneasy: A *good* DADA teacher? What an original idea! My devious little mind has sussed that every year so far the pupils (well, Harry anyway) have been put at risk/in danger from the current DADA teacher. Even Lupin eventually transformed into his werewolf form after the Shrieking Shack. This, to me, shows an encouraging trend that might end with mayhem and disaster - but you seem to want to break the progression. Shame on you! Rather than Prof Ken Iving I would suggest Snape's old bosom pal and fellow child care expert Professor Mal Ishuss. If he's not available try his cousin Percy Kewshunn - he can be a lot of fun. He and Harry can spend many happy hours playing Forfeits or perhaps Dungeons and Dragons (with real Dragons). Phil: > On a personal note Kneasy, no offence intended, but is Arrowsmith a > pseudonym to disassociate yourself from Mundungus Fletcher? > Kneasy: By sheer coincidence my TBAY alter ego is an ageing, street-wise, boozy, dishelved, untrustworthy rogue who set up Hermione as a black-PVC clad Domatrice in the Red Light district. Found my niche at last! Phil: > If book Six is to have a 'cliff hanger' ending, the obvious danger is > the train journey home. The train seems to have only 1 adult, the > refreshment seller, except when Lupin was aboard. On Lupin's trip the > train stopped for the Dementors to search the carriages for Black. > Are there any spells protecting the train ? Ambushing trains has been > practiced by all baddies since railways were invented, and JKR has a > special spot for trains. Kneasy: That's an interesting idea. Mayhem on the Hogwarts Express. The ideal location would be in a tunnel somewhere. Must check the maps and see if there are any suitable ones between Kings Cross and Scotland. Mind you, it may be film contamination (spit) but there was a sequence in the CoS film on a dodgy-looking viaduct. Hmm. From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 14:10:07 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:10:07 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jozoed" wrote: > Here in the UK JKR has given several interviews describing her > reasons for Sirius' death. > > I agree with Sophierom, we are supposed to feel Harry's despair and > hope beyond all hope that Siruis isn't really dead. But at the end of > the day life is unfair and it is another obstacle that Harry will > have to learn to get over. > > But even with all that from JKR... why the voices behind the veil? JKR's interviews describing the writing of Sirius' death are certainly canon for his death being permanent. However, I have come to feel a bit manipulated by these interviews. Although she seems to deny that Sirius is anything but "properly dead", I can't help but feel that the books say otherwise. At a time when Harry has been written to be in the midst of his darkest, surliest, most angst-ridden moments, a case can surely be made that JKR is knocking us over the head in OOP with signs asking us to believe in optimism, rebirth, faith in the face of hopelessness, and believing in the unbelievable. Luna Lovegood embodies these qualities (with her belief in Snorkacks, her certainty that her things will be returned, and her faith that her separation from her mother is only temporary), and is introduced to readers (and Harry) just when we need her most. The Quibbler can be seen as a metaphor for believing in the unbelievable. Ron has become prefect against all odds (even his own family was a bit shocked that Harry didn't get the pin). For goodness sakes, the organization they've all joined is named the *Order of the Phoenix*! If that doesn't ask us to believe in the possibility of Sirius' resurrection in one way or another, I don't know what does. As I said, I think we may be being manipulated a bit by those JKR interviews. She seems to be trying to get us to the same place that Harry is now that Sirius is gone. But, at the same time, she is covertly telling us to hang on, and have faith that everything will be alright! :: Entropy :: From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 14:14:09 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:14:09 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91537 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > Well, I'm not sure that the worst thing to happen to Lucius as a > result of the DoM debacle would be that he can no longer sell Sirius > to the highest bidder...I mean he's been "detained" by the Ministry > (although we all suspect that Draco's right when he says Dad'll be out > in no time). The last thing on Fudge's mind just now is Sirius > Black,he's just seen LV in the Ministry with his own eyes. Meanwhile, > as the apparent leader of the botched prophecy grab, Lucius has just > "let Harry Potter thwart" dear old LV yet again, a deed that surely > will warrant an unpleasant disciplinary experience when he does escape > from Azkaban. If Sirius' death was staged, I kind of doubt it was > with Malfoy in mind. Don't forget that all of this occurred *after* the plan for getting Sirius "hidden" had already been set into action. When it was planned, Lucius was influential and Fudge was still in denial. :: Entropy :: From CoyotesChild at charter.net Tue Feb 24 14:15:39 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:15:39 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c3fae0$b0d47dc0$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 91538 > > Kristen: > > I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR on > > March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information > from > > her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, > > what would it be? Iggy here: I have only one question I would want to know badly enough that I couldn't wait for the books to be finished to find out... and it's one that will not be answered in this series. Will you write anything else, with Harry or without him, after this series is finished? Iggy McSnurd From c_robocker at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 13:56:58 2004 From: c_robocker at yahoo.com (c_robocker) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:56:58 -0000 Subject: Using the Piensive by eye Witnesses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > "sawsan_issa" wrote: > >> So why couldn't Dumbledore use the piensive of > all of the eye witnesses before Fudge to prove Sirius's > innocence and Pettigrew's treason? In fact, why couldn't DD use > it on Harry in GoF to prove as an eye witness account that Moldy > Voldy was back?<< > > My thought on this, is that it is probably not an accepted tool for wizard law-enforcement. A very useful (and I think Rare) tool but not something you can use to further your case in WW court. CRobo's two cents. From elihufalk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 14:08:04 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 06:08:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Animagus Black (was: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040224140804.52114.qmail@web21410.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91540 Inge wrote: >1) What is it that Bellatrix "knew not" ? > >2) Why does she refer to Sirius as "The Animagus Black" instead of >simply Sirius Black? Is it because 'the other' (Regulus) is still >around somewhere and she doesn't want the names mixed up? I think the answers are: 1) About the smashing of the prophesy. 2) It may not be considered polite to mention people by their first name when talking to Voldemort, even ones own family; and Animagus Black is probably an absolute identifying name (Bellatrix doesn't know if Sirius had any children), since animagi are rare. Elihu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hieya at hotmail.com Tue Feb 24 14:55:17 2004 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:55:17 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote: > I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR on > March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information from > her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, > what would it be? > > I would ask: > Will we be seeing any communication with Sirius in books 6 or 7? > > Kristen Why did Crouch teach Harry to fight off the Imperius curse? He actually helped Harry stand up to Voldemort. greatlit2003 From charlot7542 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 13:00:42 2004 From: charlot7542 at yahoo.com (charlot7542) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:00:42 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: <006401c3fa85$43ab4cc0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91542 > Kristen: > I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR on > March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information from > her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, > what would it be? > > Taryn: > For the love of God, which Houses were MWPP in?! Charlotte: Yes, I definitely want to know to which houses the marauders belonged. Also, I would really like JKR to clarify the prophecy - was Harry and Harry alone always destined to be The One or would Neville been given that role had Voldemort marked him? This question bugs me more than any other. Charlotte. From lfreeman at mbc.edu Tue Feb 24 15:13:13 2004 From: lfreeman at mbc.edu (Freeman, Louise Margaret) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:13:13 -0500 Subject: Order Headquarters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91543 Carol: >>Since Kreacher is apparently bound to remain in the house of the family he served until the last member is dead (or has chosen to do so out of loyalty to his old mistress), and Kreacher is revealing secrets about Sirius, it would be obvious to the Malfoys that Sirius is also at 12 Grimmauld Place. Since they also know (I'm not sure how) that Sirius is in the Order, it wouldn't take much to figure out that 12 Grimmauld Place is also the Headquarters of the Order.<< I thought I remembered an early description of the charm that said something like "Voldemort could have looked right through the Potters' window and not known they were there." So it is entirely possible that the DE Black relatives have staked out #12 Grimmauld any number of times, but never seen anything, and therefore given up on that approach. (or turned their attention towards finding the secret-keeper, as Voldemort apparently did when hunting Harry's parents.) Perhaps, even if they found a way in, they would be deluded into believing there was no one there. (Hmm... could the Order ambush them while they were tromping through the "empty" house?) I have assumed the Fidelius Charm would protect against *any* clue that could give away the secret... after all, it does you little good to hide your address if your enemy can see you going to and from or intercept an owl addressed to you. In fact, I think that charm might have been the reason Umbridge "missed" Sirius the first time she caught him in the fire... most of him was still at the secret location which the charm prevented her from knowing. It would be very interesting to see what would happen if a non-secret keeper *did* try to give the information to someone; for instance if Harry tried to tell Neville, "The Order of the Phoenix Headquarters is at #12 Grimmauld Place" To my recollection, we haven't seen anyone attempt such a thing. Would Harry be struck dumb if he tried to speak it? Have the quill not work if he tried to write it? Would Neville be rendered incapable of understanding the words? Or would something more insidious happen, incapacitating or even killing teller or hearer? For that matter, would the outsider even be prevented from knowing that there IS a protected Secret? Could Neville be told by Harry "I have some information that I can't give you because of the Fidelius Charm?" That alone might be helpful information to an enemy. Furthermore, can someone in on the secret tell an outsider who the secret keeper is or is that also protected information? Was Harry told that Dumbledore was the Order's secret keeper before or after he read the note with the address? Louise, who thinks this darn Fidelius charm complicates things as much as the Time-Turner. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Feb 24 15:53:07 2004 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:53:07 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91544 Kristen: >If you could only ask one question, >what would it be? Now that's tough! Just one? Well, it would have to be about Snape. I guess that it would have to be the question of why Dumbledore trusts him, though she'd probably say something as helpful as the comment about "I know Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban". An alternative, something that I've always wanted to know, is just where he was and what he was doing while the Trio were busy fighting their way towards the Philosopher's Stone. Porphyria knocked my little theory, S.U.C.C.E.S.S (Snape Unfortunately Comatose Couldn't Ensure Stone's Safety, which posited that Quirrel had put a sleeping draught in his pumpkin juice or otherwise put him out of action) on the head many moons ago, but I'd still like to hear from the horse's mouth just why he seems to have backed off at the critical moment when he *knew* Harry et al were on the case. ~Eloise From elihufalk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 14:21:54 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 06:21:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Eyesight - basilisk protection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040224142154.12270.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91545 Carri : > So, would his eyeglasses have protected him from the basilisk > stare? Since CofS shows only petrification occuring when seeing the > eyes through something else, for example, water on the floor, mirror > (which are reflections) and a ghost and Collin's CAMERA - not > reflections. Looking THROUGH the lense of the camera protected > Colin from death, so could eyeglasses be a form of protection in > some future appearance of another basilisk? Carrol: Glasses didn't protect Moaning Myrtle from the basilisk. She wasn't just petrified; she died. And presumably, since her ghost wears glasses and she was coming out of a stall to investigate the presence of a boy in the girls' restroom, she was wearing her glasses when she died. Maybe Harry's glasses are special in some way but I doubt it since he acquired them from Muggles. Elihu: I have 2 possible answers: 1) Maybe the bassilisk's glare does work through glass, but not plastic. 2) Some people wear glasses to see thing near them - maybe that was why Myrtle wore them? In this case, she would have removed them in order to see what was up. Elihu From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 15:58:16 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:58:16 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling?/ How to ask! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: > > > Kristen: > > > I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR > on > > > March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information > > from > > > her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one > question, > > > what would it be? > > > > I think, more importantly than 'what' is 'how'. I've read every interview and article about JK that I could find on the net. More than once on all of the chats I could find. When people ask her direct questions about ongoing mysteries, even questions she considers to be the product of indepth reading, she won't budge. She won't even stutter. But, when you ask her something in a vague kind of way, she will not answer, of course!, but she does stumble. If someone asks her if Snape is evil, she says she's not going to tell you that, sorry. But, if you ask her why Quirrel turned out to be the baddie in PS, and not Snape....she answers that "I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on the turban." I don't have a reference, all of the chats/interviews have melted together unfortunately. Even if you can't get answers, it's fun to see if she's going to slip up. So, the things I most want to know, and how I would phrase them? Were the marauders all in Slytherin? It's a direct question, sure, but I'm guessing that she assumes we all think they were in Gryffindor. If they weren't, and it's important, and she doesn't want to answer, she might sliip up, and say something like, "Why do you want to know?" I saw she said that when someone asked her if there were any spells that could be done with the eyes alone. What they were asking is, what's significant about Harry's eyes? But, she slipped up, and gave away that the eyes are important. From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 16:01:03 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:01:03 -0000 Subject: Draco's wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91547 I was re reading PS, when I saw the conversation that Harry has with Draco in Madam Malkin's. Draco says that his father is buying his books, and his mother is up the street looking at wands. Does this mean that Draco's mother purchased his wand? Are there any ramifications of this? From TonyaMinton at hotmail.com Tue Feb 24 17:00:43 2004 From: TonyaMinton at hotmail.com (tonyaminton) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:00:43 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: <000001c3fae0$b0d47dc0$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91548 I want to know what house the Marauders were in. I think that JKR will surprise us all with this answer. Tonya From ktd7 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 18:37:24 2004 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:37:24 -0000 Subject: "Hidden Key to Harry Potter" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91549 Has anyone else read John Granger's book? He compares J.K.R. to "Inkling" writers Tolkien and C.S.Lewis. I just finished it, and he makes some interesting points and makes pretty accurate predictions of what was to happen in OoTP. Karen From tmar78 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 17:50:26 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:50:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dealing w/ Kreacher In-Reply-To: <1077611931.2834.43146.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040224175026.10834.qmail@web14104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91550 Greetings! I'm new to the list; been lurking for a bit but recently I thought of something in regards to Kreacher that I think is worthy of discussion. (my apologies in advance if this idea has been mentioned before!) Anyway, here it is: I was re-reading OotP the other day when it occured to me, when Sirius handed over his parents' house to Dumbledore why didn't he just put a memory charm on Kreacher and give him clothes? If the whole reason they kept him around was because he knew too much about what the Order was up to, why not simply remove those memories? I know its a little Men In Black-ish, but it would've worked. Unless house elves are immune to memory charms or else memory charms only work on people? I dunno...what do you guys think? Tyler ===== "It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." - Albus Dumbledore __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Feb 24 19:19:31 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:19:31 -0000 Subject: Draco's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91551 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: >snip< >Draco says that his father is buying his > books, and his mother is up the street looking at wands. Does this > mean that Draco's mother purchased his wand? Are there any > ramifications of this? I"ve wondered about that too. We don't know if she bought the wand, or if he joined her and then one was purchased. Possibly we have several students dealing with an "unchosen" wand. It appears not everyone agrees with Ollivander that the wand chooses the wizard. Certainly, Gran could have bought Neville a wand, so money wasn't an issue with her. In the Weasley case, the expense was a factor. And in the Malfoy family, we just don't know. If Malfoy's wand didn't choose him, and if Ron and Neville now have better fitting wands, will that affect future hexes and disputes? Potioncat From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 24 19:37:37 2004 From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:37:37 -0000 Subject: Landscapes with Angels Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91552 Hi All, There's a conference coming up this summer called "Landscapes with Angels: Fantasy, Children's Literature and the Spiritual Role of the Imagination" in Oxford, England. http://www.secondspring.co.uk/fantasy/conference.htm It includes one HP specific talk: "Harry Potter and Mythopoeia" by Dr Theodore J. Sherman, but to be honest, they all look interesting. I had to look `mythopoeia' up, apparently it means the making of myths. Cheers, Dumbledad. From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 18:54:39 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:54:39 -0000 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91553 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > I'd also like to comment on Catlady and annemehr's posts (#91445 and > #91461) that I don't believe Bagman was in on Voldemort and Barty > Crouch Jr's plan for the Triwizard Tournament. There is no evidence > to suggest anyone else was in on the secret; just Voldie, Barty Jr > and Wormtail. Remember, not even "faithful" DE's like Malfoy knew > anything about what was going on till the mark burned on their arms, > summoning them to Voldie's side. When Barty is under the influence of > veritaserum, he doesn't mention Bagman with one word. Annemehr: Good points, except that I think it would be possible for Bagman to have been involved without Crouch Jr.'s knowledge. The main weakness of the idea that Bagman was involved is that Voldemort would have sense enough to let as few people as possible know of his return. Wormtail was a given, as he was the one who came to him, and Crouch Jr. was ideal as being believed dead, extremely loyal, and intelligent. Bagman has apparently been pretty dim all his life (so it's not an act), so it would be risky for Voldemort to reveal himself to him at this stage. I did think the idea that Bagman helped set up the third task to involve the portkey would help solve a few difficulties, but on further reflection I think this role could have been accomplished by Barty Jr. Dumbledore hired Alastor Moody primarily to help with security during the tournament, agreed? So it would make sense that he would arrange for Moody to be in close contact with Crouch Sr. and Bagman to assess what the security risks might be. This would give Crouch!Moody the opportunity he needed both to learn of and report the details of the tasks to Voldemort and also to suggest the use of a portkey to Bagman and Crouch Sr. I just wish we knew more about the use of portkeys at Hogwarts. Is it safe to deduce there must be some method of preventing their use into and out of the grounds? I think we can deduce that the Atrium is the only place to apparate, floo, and maybe portkey into and out of the MoM, but the information we have for Hogwarts is much less clear. If there is a magical block to Portkeys at Hogwarts, then Dumbledore would have had to have lifted it to ennable Crouch!Moody to turn the Cup into a Portkey (and add the extra graveyard stop while he was at it). However, if Hogwarts relies on magical detection and subsequent punishment to deter illegal portkey users, all this is moot, although it's only closing the barn door after the horse has escaped. I think it is logical to believe that Portkeying in and out of Hogwarts is prevented to all but the headmaster (which beautifully explains Voldemort's need for a portkey to be part of the third task and why Crouch Jr. couldn't just turn anything else into one). However, without JKR specifically saying so, or at least clearly implying it to a careful reader, we will always have at least some nagging doubts about this explanation. I know people for whom this idea has always seemed very contrived. That gives me the question I'd most love to see asked at the March 4 Chat! "We know you can't apparate into or out of Hogwarts. Is the same true for Portkeys and the Floo?" Annemehr not normally awake at 5:00 am EST US From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Feb 24 19:12:25 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:12:25 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91554 I'm re-reading PoA, chapter 10 and noticed a few things (pp. 201-210 Scholastic paperback) McGonagall, Flitwick, Hagrid and Fudge arrive at the Three Broomsticks and sit near Harry, Hermione and Ron. Then they begin to talk to Rosmerta about Black. Here are two interesting tid bits: A few threads ago we were wondering about Flitwick and his role in OWLS. Although his subject isn't mentioned, he was a teacher during the marauders' days. He recalls James and Sirius as being like brothers. (I know as group we pretty much decided that Flitwick was teaching then, but here is canon.) What surprises me is that Fudge refers to "James and Lily" several times as if he had been on a first name basis with them. Oddly enough, Professors McGonagall and Flitwick refer to James and Sirius always as Potter and Black. I'm not sure if this just made the storytelling easier or if Fudge knew the Potters well. Or if he is just a name dropper. Do we know how old he is? Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Feb 24 20:12:02 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:12:02 -0000 Subject: Fudge and the Potters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91555 I'm in chapter 10 of PoA and I came across a conversation between McGonagall, Flitwick, Hagrid, Fudge and Rosemerta in the Three Broomsticks. Harry, Ron and Hermione are listening in. They are discussing Black and Potter in their school days. Rosmerta and the Hogwarts staff all remember them vividly and fondly (confirming that Flitwick was a teacher then, as we had decided in a different thread.) McGonagall and Flitwick refer to them as Black and Potter. Pettigrew is also mentioned. We've seen McGonagall use James' first name before, but she doesn't here. Fudge however, talks about Lily and James by first names. I thought that was odd. Do we know if he is the same age (he isn't necessarily saying he recalls the schooldays, but he does talk about the wedding) He could just be name dropping or they could have been friends? co-workers? former classmates? Any ideas? I thought I posted this before, but haven't seen it. Sorry if it pops up twice. Potioncat From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 20:30:31 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:30:31 -0000 Subject: Dealing w/ Kreacher In-Reply-To: <20040224175026.10834.qmail@web14104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney wrote: > Greetings! > > I'm new to the list; been lurking for a bit but > recently I thought of something in regards to Kreacher > that I think is worthy of discussion. (my apologies in > advance if this idea has been mentioned before!) > Anyway, here it is: I was re-reading OotP the other > day when it occured to me, when Sirius handed over > his parents' house to Dumbledore why didn't he just > put a memory charm on Kreacher and give him clothes? > If the whole reason they kept him around was because > he knew too much about what the Order was up to, why > not simply remove those memories? I know its a little > Men In Black-ish, but it would've worked. Unless > house elves are immune to memory charms or else memory > charms only work on people? I dunno...what do you > guys think? > > Tyler > I think there is much more to House Elves than we know about. For example, some questions I have asked before: 1) How can Dobby apparate in and out of Hogwarts? 2) How did the MoM detect a Hover Charm was used at 4 Privet Drive but did not detect a house elf had performed it? Julie - who still wonders if there is a connection between house elves and goblins From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 20:35:18 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:35:18 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I'm re-reading PoA, chapter 10 and noticed a few things (pp. 201- 210 > Scholastic paperback) > McGonagall, Flitwick, Hagrid and Fudge arrive at the Three > Broomsticks and sit near Harry, Hermione and Ron. Then they begin to > talk to Rosmerta about Black. > Here are two interesting tid bits: > > A few threads ago we were wondering about Flitwick and his role in > OWLS. Although his subject isn't mentioned, he was a teacher during > the marauders' days. He recalls James and Sirius as being like > brothers. (I know as group we pretty much decided that Flitwick was > teaching then, but here is canon.) > > What surprises me is that Fudge refers to "James and Lily" several > times as if he had been on a first name basis with them. Oddly > enough, Professors McGonagall and Flitwick refer to James and Sirius > always as Potter and Black. > > I'm not sure if this just made the storytelling easier or if Fudge > knew the Potters well. Or if he is just a name dropper. Do we know > how old he is? > > Potioncat Do any teachers (not DD) at Hogwarts refer to students by their first names or are the always "Mr. Potter" "Mr. Weasley", etc.? From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 20:27:32 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:27:32 -0000 Subject: HOW many classmates? All things are Relative In-Reply-To: <20040223082807.44841.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91558 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk wrote: > Ffred wrote: > > The actual numbers in the first 5 years would be larger than 1000/7 of > course, because you have to assume that a certain number leave after taking > OWLs, so that years 6 and 7 will be smaller than years 1-5 > > > My (Elihu's) answer: > > If you say the average year has 143 (exactly 1001/7), you can still have some years smaller than others. lets say that in Harry's year, slightly less than 1 quarter ended up being Gryffindors. You could easily, in my opinion, from a group of 135 students, have 30 Gryffindors instead of 34. > > Elihu > bboy_mn: Let me comment again, that I don't think JKR's statement of a student population of 1,000 was actually intended to be a head count. I think she was stating the relative size of the school. Hogwarts is a school with a relative capacity of 1,000 students; as opposed to 100 or 10,000. A SCHOOL with a relative size of 1,000 does not necessarily always have 1,000 students enrolled. We see from Harry's roaming of the castle that there are several classrooms that are used for storage. This would imply that the school is not currently at it's maximum or typical capacity. By my estimation, a school with a relative size of 1,000 could have enrolements that fluctate between 500 and 1,200. In addition, it you look at the personality types of each house, and relate them to real world examples, we see that these are not equally balanced types. The world is overflowing with hardworking loyal Hufflepuff types (labor/blue collar), and while there are a substantial number of Ravenclaw types (intelligent, educated, college graduate types, white collar, management), they are less than the working class. In the real world, few people ever have their bravery tested, so it's hard to tell how many Gryfindors there are, but we do know that people of significant and substantial proven bravery are quite rare and greatly admired in the real world, so I conclude far fewer Gryfindors than Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw. Now with Slytherin, we can again look at the real world and see that while most people want to do well in life, few are driven by unrelenting ambition (owners, executives, presidents, CEO). So once again, far fewer Donald Trumps than Joe MiddleClass. So, in order of size, based on transposing personality types into real world examples, I say... Greatest number = Hufflepuff Somewhat Large = Ravenclaw Small = Gryfindor Small = Slytherin Just off the top of my head, I would guess a ratio of 40H/30R/15G/15S. I can't prove that ratio, so it's more of an illustration of my point than anything else. Also, you can look at any real life school and see that each year is not even. In our small school, grade sizes were typcially 20 to 30 with an average of 25. However, there was one class grade that only had 15 students in it, and there was no logical reason or tracable event to account for the small size; just a random variation. So, one could assume or suppose that years above and below Harry could be larger. So we have uneven houses and uneven years, and a relative size of the school that allows for a range of actual enrollment counts. So, I guess part of my point is that we shouldn't take JKR statement that the school is about 1,000 students to mean that the school is now, always will be, and always has been exactly 1,000.0000000000 students. There are ways of explaining things like 10 Hufflepuffs and 10 Gryfindors in Herbology with uneven house sizes. While they are not supported by direct evidence in the book, they are reasonable and common methods of dealing with uneven class size in the real world. For example; we could assume there are Herbology classes with ... class 1: 10 Gryf/10 Huff class 2: 10 Rave/10 Huff class 3: 10 Rave/10 Slyth alternately- class 1: 10 Gryf/10 Huff class 2: 20 Ravenclaw class 3: 10 Slyth/10 Huff In both cases, the smaller Gryf and Slyth have been combined with the overflow from Hufflepuff and/or Ravenclaw. Note: multiplying the above by x10 would give us a school enrolment of 600 students, and a year average size for Gryfindor of 14.3. Now, again, this isn't proven in the books, but there is nothing that positively disproves it either. All we have are Harry's observations of the world around him, and Harry tends to keep to himself as much as possible. He still doesn't know the names of many of the students he has gone to school with for five years. So Harry's view is far from a complete view. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 20:38:41 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:38:41 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91559 Potioncat wrote: > What surprises me is that Fudge refers to "James and Lily" several > times as if he had been on a first name basis with them. Oddly > enough, Professors McGonagall and Flitwick refer to James and Sirius > always as Potter and Black. > > I'm not sure if this just made the storytelling easier or if Fudge > knew the Potters well. Or if he is just a name dropper. Do we know > how old he is? Hitomi: Well, I've always estimated Fudge to be in his fifties, though he could have been in school with the Marauders for a year or two (meaning he'd been in his forties). But most public officials are at least in their forties when they first take office, and Lily and James would have been in their mid-thirties when this series began (according to Snape's age, if they had lived), so I just assume Fudge is older. Could be wrong, but I don't think it's a risky assumption. And Fudge is a name dropper. He always addresses Harry very familiarly, without any reason to do so, other than that Harry is "Harry Potter, the Boy Who Lived" and he's the Minister of Magic. And probably because Harry is a boy, and not a student of his, so it looks good to be buddy buddy with little Harry, especially when Harry's reputation remained untarnished. If you'll notice though, in Book 5, he refers to him as "Harry Potter" and not just "Harry" most of the time. Fudge is ever the ingratiating politician, according to society's whims. All the teachers refer to the students by their last name, except DD with Harry. DD is more familiar with his students on average, but he never addresses Harry as "Mr. Potter," but he addresses Ron as "Mr. Weasley." When talking about his students, he'll use their first names, like with Neville, but Harry is the only example I know of where he addresses a student by their first name, while that student is still at Hogwarts. Which says something about DD and Harry's relationship. I wonder at times how Harry never picked up on it, but DD has kept himself distant, so I guess that's the reason. But besides the teachers, most all adults refer to the Potters as Lily and James. Maybe they're seen as some kind of public figures, what with being the parents of a famous historical hero. Which seems to be how the public views Harry again. There are my two cents ;) ~ Hitomi From alison.williams at virgin.net Tue Feb 24 20:41:55 2004 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (Alison) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:41:55 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: <1077650404.9405.66404.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040224204158.QEGB16572.mta5-svc.business.ntl.com@your0q6xoyg76x> No: HPFGUIDX 91560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote: > I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR on > March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information from > her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, > what would it be? > > I would ask: > Will we be seeing any communication with Sirius in books 6 or 7? > > Kristen Why did Crouch teach Harry to fight off the Imperius curse? He actually helped Harry stand up to Voldemort. greatlit2003 I always wondered about that too. I don't keep up with this list on a regular enough basis to know if its been discussed, but if it has I've missed it. Alison From ldyisabella at hotmail.com Tue Feb 24 20:44:20 2004 From: ldyisabella at hotmail.com (Julie Stevenson) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:44:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dealing w/ Kreacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91561 >I think there is much more to House Elves than we know about. For >example, some questions I have asked before: >1) How can Dobby apparate in and out of Hogwarts? >2) How did the MoM detect a Hover Charm was used at 4 Privet Drive >but did not detect a house elf had performed it? > >Julie - who still wonders if there is a connection between house >elves and goblins > Hello Julie, from another Julie! I agree that House Elves are one of the big mysteries of the HP series, and I think they will likely become a large factor in the coming "War" mentioned at the end of OotP. Regarding your wondering though, the two bits of legend/folklore that House Elves have always reminded me of are: 1) The Shoemaker & the Elves story -- where the elves come in at night and do all this work for the shoemaker, but when the shoemaker gives them clothes to cover their nakedness in thanks, they go away and never return. 2) The concept of Brownies (no, not the pre-Girl Scouts/Guides group!), who do helpful chores around the house in return only for being given a bowl of milk at the doorstep. -- Julie Stevenson _________________________________________________________________ Say good-bye to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- free trial offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 20:48:21 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:48:21 -0000 Subject: Order Headquarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91562 I agree with everything Louise had to say, but also we don't know that most dark wizards knew where the Black's house was. It could even have been moved around, and according to Book 5, Hermione I think, the place was covered in protections, even before the Order began to use it. Also, Kreacher is not allowed to give information the Order/Sirius forbid him to give, according to DD, and I'm sure one of the things they told him never to tell anyone is where the Order is located. Kreacher could tell the Malfoys information in a roundabout way, but never something so direct, and of course, there is the Fidelius Charm, as Louise has already described. ~ Hitomi From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Feb 24 20:51:57 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:51:57 -0000 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" > wrote: > > > I'd also like to comment on Catlady and annemehr's posts (#91445 and > > #91461) that I don't believe Bagman was in on Voldemort and Barty > > Crouch Jr's plan for the Triwizard Tournament. There is no evidence > > to suggest anyone else was in on the secret; just Voldie, Barty Jr > > and Wormtail. Remember, not even "faithful" DE's like Malfoy knew > > anything about what was going on till the mark burned on their arms, > > summoning them to Voldie's side. When Barty is under the influence of > > veritaserum, he doesn't mention Bagman with one word. > > > Annemehr: > Good points, except that I think it would be possible for Bagman to > have been involved without Crouch Jr.'s knowledge. > > The main weakness of the idea that Bagman was involved is that > Voldemort would have sense enough to let as few people as possible > know of his return. Wormtail was a given, as he was the one who came > to him, and Crouch Jr. was ideal as being believed dead, extremely > loyal, and intelligent. Bagman has apparently been pretty dim all his > life (so it's not an act), so it would be risky for Voldemort to > reveal himself to him at this stage. > > I did think the idea that Bagman helped set up the third task to > involve the portkey would help solve a few difficulties, but on > further reflection I think this role could have been accomplished by > Barty Jr. Dumbledore hired Alastor Moody primarily to help with > security during the tournament, agreed? So it would make sense that > he would arrange for Moody to be in close contact with Crouch Sr. and > Bagman to assess what the security risks might be. This would give > Crouch!Moody the opportunity he needed both to learn of and report the > details of the tasks to Voldemort and also to suggest the use of a > portkey to Bagman and Crouch Sr. > Kneasy: Just to raise a point: As organiser of the tasks it would be Bagman's job to carry the Cup into the maze. But Crouch!Moody tells Harry that it was he who put the Portkey spell on the Cup and presumably he was the last person to touch it before Harry did. So why were no-one's suspicions aroused by Crouch!Moody parading around with the Cup? Very odd. It could be that Crouch!Moody had inducted Bagman to act as an unwitting fall guy. He (Crouch!Moody) obviously thought that he was going to succeed in his little plan to deliver Harry to Voldy. It was successful until Voldy let him get away - if Harry hadn't come back no-one would know what the hell had happened, but Bagman as organiser would have fallen under suspicion. But if Crouch!Moody hadn't told Bagman his plans, questioning, even with Veratiserum, would not produce answers. So how does the idea that Bagman!Gofer, thinking that he's helping Crouch!Moody fix the competition (and making a few Galleons on the side) but being cast as 'Most Wanted" grab you? Gred and Forge tell Harry that Bagman made a run for it "right after the third task.' It'd be interesting to know if that was after Harry vanished but before Harry returned. If it was then maybe he was smart enough to see that he had been set up. This is becoming satisfactorily devious. annemehr: > I just wish we knew more about the use of portkeys at Hogwarts. Is it > safe to deduce there must be some method of preventing their use into > and out of the grounds? I think we can deduce that the Atrium is the > only place to apparate, floo, and maybe portkey into and out of the > MoM, but the information we have for Hogwarts is much less clear. Kneasy: True. Both times that we know about DD set up a Portkey arrival /departure in his study. (To get the crowd to Grimmauld Place when Arthur was attacked and to get back after the MoM fight.) Then there was the Cup. I have problems with the idea that DD knowingly allowed someone to spell the Cup. What excuse could the person give? Everything was set up for a grand celebration at Hogwarts when the winner was declared. Why on Earth should DD agree with making the winner vanish at the moment of victory? This would mean that a Portkey can be set up without DD's knowledge or approval. One question it would be nice to have the answer to is - how did the Examiners in OoP arrive at Hogwarts? Floo, Thestral or Portkey? If it was the latter and at a time when DD wasn't around.... From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Tue Feb 24 21:31:55 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:31:55 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91564 Is anyone else as irritated as me that Harry and Hermione didn't just floo out of Umbridge's office straight to Grimmauld Place, instead of wasting all that time being caught and riding thestrals to disaster in the MoM ? Hermione and Harry had a clear 5 min before Umbridge came stampeding back to catch them; plenty of time to whisk into the fire. Even with Kreacher pretending Sirius wasn't there, you would have thought it would have made Harry mad enough to just walk straight into the fire, as it would have got him to London faster than anything. From Grimmauld place he could have got the tube... Yeah, yeah, I know, it was a plot device to ensure Neville, Luna and Ginny got there too for reasons we will no doubt discover, but clunky or what.. Carolyn, grumpily. From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Tue Feb 24 21:09:40 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:09:40 -0000 Subject: Getting in to Hogwarts (was Bagman) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91565 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote:> One question it would be nice to have the answer to is - how did the > Examiners in OoP arrive at Hogwarts? Floo, Thestral or Portkey? If it > was the latter and at a time when DD wasn't around.... Carolyn: But surely anyone can apparate, thestral, Knight Bus, carpet, broom, shanks pony or whatever to just outside the gates, and then walk up the drive ? For this reason I have never understood why Hermione/JKR bangs on so much about the no-apparate rule at Hogwarts. Its only a matter of a few hundred yards walk ... One has to hope that the gates and all the boundaries are thoroughly bewitched as well, but from the number of people wandering in and out it seems not (Crouch Sr, Sirius, Rita Skeeter to name but a few). From dk59us at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 20:28:34 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:28:34 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91566 :: Entropy :: started us all thinking by saying: Of course, we are all aware of the mysterious second curse. We all know that Bellatrix cast the first, which Sirius dodged. But then "the second jet of light hit him squarely in the chest." Not "Bellatrix's curse", not even a "green jet" which would surely be an AK and would seal Sirius' fate. Just "a second jet". Given that Dumbledore has already appeared, and all of the Death Eaters except for Bellatrix have begun to run for it, who is it that took the time to stop running from Dumbledore to cast a curse at Sirius while he was already being held off by Bellatrix? Perhaps it wasn't one of the Death Eaters, but an OOP member, simply giving Sirius a convenient nudge. Eustace_Scrubb whines gratingly: Although JKR has not specifically attributed "the second jet of light" to Bellatrix, the circumstantial evidence certainly suggests it was her: First, "Only one pair was still battling", Sirius and Bellatrix. Second, Sirius taunts Bellatrix after she missed the first time, practically begging her to try again, something that would certainly enrage her. Now, as to what curse it was that hit Sirius and propelled him through the veil... 1) we know that the first jet was red, but the second jet's color is not mentioned; 2) We do know what Sirius looked like after he was hit by the second jet: "his eyes widened in shock...Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's wasted, once-handsome face" 3) Sirius did not speak after the curse hit him, he fell straight back, which happened to mean that he fell through the veil. Do we know of any curses that have the result that is described here? Well, we know that the Riddle family was found dead "with their eyes wide open" by the servants and that the medical examiner recorded that "each of the Riddles had a look of terror upon his or her face - but as the frustrated police said, whoever heard of three people being frightened to death?" (GOF Chapter One) We also know that after Cedric was killed, Harry saw "his open gray eyes, blank and expressionless as the windows of a deserted house, at his half-open mouth, which looked slightly surprised." The curse that resulted in wide-open eyes, a look of shock, fear and/or surprise and results in immediate death, is Avada Kevadra. We know that Bellatrix is very capable at Crucio. I imagine that she could do AK as well, although I can't remember any killings specifically attributed to her. If Sirius had fallen where anyone had been able to look at his body, it certainly seems likely that he would have had the classic AK victim's expression on his face: eyes wide open, shock, fear, surprise. Now this all makes sense to me, but I'm aware that there are gaps in what we've been told that lead us to question the evidence: why didn't JKR tell us the jet was green? Why didn't we hear the dramatic cry of "Avada Kevadra" from Bellatrix? I'd guess that it's the combination of the chaos in the room, the arrival of Dumbledore drawing attention from everything else and the fact that we're seeing this from Harry's POV--he's exhausted, overstimulated and cannot possibly take in each detail--and perhaps would have blocked this out anyway. >From JKR's POV, I'd propose that she _wants_ us all to wonder whether Sirius is "properly dead" or not, and had we seen green light and heard "AK" we'd have no reason to doubt. Now, all this still leaves the mystery of the veil to figure out, but I've been rambling too long anyway. Eustace_Scrubb From john_the_walker82 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 24 20:54:13 2004 From: john_the_walker82 at yahoo.co.uk (john_the_walker82) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:54:13 -0000 Subject: Dealing w/ Kreacher In-Reply-To: <20040224175026.10834.qmail@web14104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91567 tyler wrote: > I was re-reading OotP the other > day when it occured to me, when Sirius handed over > his parents' house to Dumbledore why didn't he just > put a memory charm on Kreacher and give him clothes? > If the whole reason they kept him around was because > he knew too much about what the Order was up to, why > not simply remove those memories? I know its a little > Men In Black-ish, but it would've worked. Unless > house elves are immune to memory charms or else memory > charms only work on people? I dunno...what do you > guys think? Me: Remember the danger in memory charms. They can be broken. Even when excessive strength is used in the memory charm, as in the case of Crouch snr.'s charm on Bertha Jorkins which damaged her memory, they can still be broken. I imagine this fact would remain valid over and above the special magical qualities of house elves that we have so much fun speculating on! Best, John From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 21:45:19 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:45:19 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91568 Carolyn wrote: > Is anyone else as irritated as me that Harry and Hermione didn't just > floo out of Umbridge's office straight to Grimmauld Place, instead of > wasting all that time being caught and riding thestrals to disaster > in the MoM ? > > Hermione and Harry had a clear 5 min before Umbridge came stampeding > back to catch them; plenty of time to whisk into the fire. Even with > Kreacher pretending Sirius wasn't there, you would have thought it > would have made Harry mad enough to just walk straight into the fire, > as it would have got him to London faster than anything. From > Grimmauld place he could have got the tube... > > Yeah, yeah, I know, it was a plot device to ensure Neville, Luna and > Ginny got there too for reasons we will no doubt discover, but clunky > or what.. Hitomi: Actually, I'm more annoyed that Harry never looked at what Sirius gave him after Christmas. If JKR had had him do so, there never would have been a need to go into Umbridge's office, either time. He just could have talked to Sirius through the mirrors, Kreacher never could have tricked him, and Sirius would probably still be alive. It's always seemed to me to be a strange plot-hole oversight. Anyway, it drove me up a wall when Harry discovered what his gift was at the end. >_< Oh well, what's done is done I suppose, but there is one example of Hermione's worrying and nagging (over whether or not Harry should communicate with Sirius while at Grimmauld Place) NOT being a good thing (I mean, seriously, what would you do if there was even the possibility that someone you loved was being tortured and about to be killed? I would probably do exactly what Harry did - freak out and overreact out of concern). ~ Hitomi From john_the_walker82 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 24 21:41:51 2004 From: john_the_walker82 at yahoo.co.uk (john_the_walker82) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:41:51 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91569 wrote: > Is anyone else as irritated as me that Harry and Hermione didn't just > floo out of Umbridge's office straight to Grimmauld Place, instead of > wasting all that time being caught and riding thestrals to disaster > in the MoM ? It seems highly unlikely that, given the protections on 12 Grimmauld Place, that you would be able to Floo in, especially when not expected. I think that the fireplace can only be used as a communication tool, rather than a travelling one. I wouldn't be surprised if the Hogwarts fireplaces operated the same way. After all, what is there to prevent the school from just giving students a time to Floo into their common room fireplace at the start of term, rather than having to take a long train journey from London? John the Walker From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 21:52:39 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:52:39 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91570 "jozoed" wrote: Here in the UK JKR has given several interviews describing her reasons for Sirius' death. I agree with Sophierom, we are supposed to feel Harry's despair and hope beyond all hope that Siruis isn't really dead. But at the end of the day life is unfair and it is another obstacle that Harry will have to learn to get over. But even with all that from JKR... why the voices behind the veil? > > Entropy responded: JKR's interviews describing the writing of Sirius' death are certainly canon for his death being permanent. However, I have come to feel a bit manipulated by these interviews. > Although she seems to deny that Sirius is anything but "properly dead", I can't help but feel that the books say otherwise. At a time when Harry has been written to be in the midst of his darkest, surliest, most angst-ridden moments, a case can surely be made that JKR is knocking us over the head in OOP with signs asking us to believe in optimism, rebirth, faith in the face of hopelessness, and believing in the unbelievable. > Luna Lovegood embodies these qualities (with her belief in Snorkacks, her certainty that her things will be returned, and her faith that her separation from her mother is only temporary), and is introduced to readers (and Harry) just when we need her most. For goodness sakes, the organization they've all joined is named the *Order of the Phoenix*! If that doesn't ask us to believe in the possibility of Sirius' resurrection in one way or another, I don't know what does. Carol: I think the voices behind the veil and Luna's faith that she'll see her mother again are reflections of JKR's own Christian beliefs. People who are "properly dead" (not ghosts like Sir Nick but those who have chosen, like James and Lily and IMO Sirius as well) don't come back to this earth (not counting preserved memories in portraits, which I won't go into here), but there's clearly some sort of afterlife in the Potterverse, whether or not it's the Christian heaven, that only those whose souls are sucked by Dementors are denied. Otherwise, souls would have no significance and the shadows of Cedric and the others--even the old Muggle, Frank Bryce--could not have spoken to Harry in the graveyard scene. That, to me, is what the veil represents--the dead are not gone forever--they've just stepped through the veil to the next great adventure. I thought that DD said something of the sort to Harry near the end of OoP but I can't find the reference. I do notice, however, that he carefully refers to Sirius in the past tense throughout the conversation--more confirmation, if we believe that JKR reveals facts through DD, that Sirius is really dead. DD is not omniscient, I realize--he was wrong about Sirius being the Secret Keeper and a murderer--but he's old and wise and if anyone knows what the Veil in the DoM is, he does. This is not an instance of an untrustworthy narrator misleading us through Harry's POV. JKR has given us every reason, short of a body, to believe that Sirius Black is dead--not just Lupin's and Dumbledor's assertions that he's dead but the incident with the mirror that doesn't answer and the conversation with Nick about ghosts. I, for one, would feel cheated if he returned in any earthly shape or form, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Harry gained some sort of insight into death in more spiritual terms. That, I think, is where Luna and the Thestrals and the Veil are leading us. Carol From kcawte at ntlworld.com Wed Feb 25 06:09:10 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:09:10 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? References: Message-ID: <001501c3fb65$e338e050$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 91571 John the Walker > > It seems highly unlikely that, given the protections on 12 Grimmauld > Place, that you would be able to Floo in, especially when not > expected. I think that the fireplace can only be used as a > communication tool, rather than a travelling one. I wouldn't be > surprised if the Hogwarts fireplaces operated the same way. After > all, what is there to prevent the school from just giving students a > time to Floo into their common room fireplace at the start of term, > rather than having to take a long train journey from London? K Plus the Floo network is Ministry controlled isn't it? A few Floo calls they might be able to get away with but if people started travelling too and from the supposedly empty family residence of an escaped convit I think even the Ministry 'brains' might smell a rat. So even apart from the usual security reasons I assume Floo access to and from Grimmauld Place would have been made impossible by Dumbledore. K From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Feb 24 22:13:27 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:13:27 -0000 Subject: Knowing Kneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91572 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: Phil: > > If book Six is to have a 'cliff hanger' ending, the obvious danger is > > the train journey home. The train seems to have only 1 adult, the > > refreshment seller, except when Lupin was aboard. On Lupin's trip the > > train stopped for the Dementors to search the carriages for Black. > > Are there any spells protecting the train ? Ambushing trains has been > > practiced by all baddies since railways were invented, and JKR has a > > special spot for trains. > > Kneasy: > That's an interesting idea. Mayhem on the Hogwarts Express. > The ideal location would be in a tunnel somewhere. Must check the > maps and see if there are any suitable ones between Kings Cross and > Scotland. Geoff: There are only a few and mainly fairly short, so you'd have to be a quick worker to defenestrate the odd Hogwarts pupil or two, if that's what you had in mind.... Heading north from Kings Cross, there is Gasworks Tunnel which starts virtually off the platform end and then very shortly Belle Isle tunnel (BTW/OT these tunnels featured in the well-known film "The Ladykillers"), two tunnels at Hadley Wood, one at Potters Bar and two at Welwyn - these bring you to about 20 miles north of Kings Cross. Stoke Tunnel, just south of Grantham about 100 miles north of Kings Cross, is the summit of the line in England and a slightly longer one. There used to be one at Penmanshiel, just over the Scottish border north of Berwick but that sadly collapsed in the 1980s killing some workmen and a new bypass line was built and then there is a tunnel on the approach to Edinburgh Waverley. I think that's the lot as far as Edinburgh. Kneasy: Mind you, it may be film contamination (spit) but there was > a sequence in the CoS film on a dodgy-looking viaduct. Hmm. Geoff: You just watch what you're saying about that dodgy viaduct. :-) It is a worthy edifice to carry the Hogwarts Express and all the great and good(?) who travel on it. It is Glenfinnan Viaduct on the Fort William-Mallaig line. This was the first major railway structure built in reinforced concrete and was built by "Concrete Bob", the nickname of Sir Robert McAlpine who founded the famous UK building firm. From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 22:15:15 2004 From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:15:15 -0000 Subject: Crouch's motivation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > Why did Crouch teach Harry to fight off the Imperius curse? He > actually helped Harry stand up to Voldemort. > > greatlit2003 I think that while Crouch was at Hogwart's he started to see the consequences of his actions, and acted toward rectification in some instances. After he saw Neville's reaction to the Cruciatus he took him and gave him a book he would enjoy and some praise. Now mostly that is to help Harry get to Voldemort, but I think that there is a part of Crouch's brain not totally committed to evil, as though he were under a curse, that might still try to change things for which that part of him recognizes as his wrongdoing. I don't think he is actually under a curse but maybe is suffering from some mental disorder, like bi-polar disorder or multiple personalities, and that the part of him that once was dominant is now trapped deep inside the Crouch that is so evil and against what he once was. So about the Imperius, I think that the part of Crouch that sees his wrongdoing and feels remorse thinks that it would be unfair to send Harry to Voldemort unprepared, and since he cannot undo all that has been planned, he teaches Harry something to make the fight more fair. psychobirdgirl From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 22:21:39 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:21:39 -0000 Subject: Draco's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91574 "lizvega2" wrote: Draco says that his father is buying his books, and his mother is up the street looking at wands. Does this mean that Draco's mother purchased his wand? Are there any ramifications of this? > Potioncat responded: I"ve wondered about that too. We don't know if she bought the wand, or if he joined her and then one was purchased. Possibly we have several students dealing with an "unchosen" wand. It appears not everyone agrees with Ollivander that the wand chooses the wizard. Certainly, Gran could have bought Neville a wand, so money wasn't an issue with her. In the Weasley case, the expense was a factor. And in the Malfoy family, we just don't know. If Malfoy's wand didn't choose him, and if Ron and Neville now have better fitting wands, will that affect future hexes and disputes? Carol: Since we haven't seen any of Draco's spells backfire, I don't think he has any problems with his wand. I also trust Mr. Ollivander's statement about the wand choosing the wizard: he's a very shrewd and intelligent old wizard, a genius in his way with his skill at making ands and his photographic memory of every wand he's ever sold. So the solution I've come up with is that Draco is very like his mother, and she would be able to narrow down the selection of a wand to three or four that would work for him based on what she told Mr. Ollivander about him and how they performed for her. Then lazy Draco could just swish those few wands around and choose the one that made the most sparks. Or Mr. O. might simply tell her that he couldn't in good conscience sell her a wand without actually seeing and measuring her son, and since, like a good Black/Malfoy, she wants the best for her son, she'd have no choice but to wait for him to show up. No evidence, I realize, just speculation. But since it appears that Neville's having the *wrong* wand does make a difference, it looks to me as if Draco, despite being a lazy, spoiled brat who wants everything done for him, somehow got the right wand--or at least one that's close enough to serve his needs till now. Carol From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 22:41:31 2004 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:41:31 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: <000101c3f88b$18e8abf0$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91575 Carol: How come no one except me wants it to be Theo Nott Iggy: > Well, to be completely honest, I didn't even think of Theo Nott Constance Vigilance (me): I actually hadn't thought of Theodore Nott before another friend (not on this list) made that suggestion a few months ago. However, having had time to ponder, I think TN is the perfect choice for the Good! Slytherin. Just look at his name. He's an Evil!Slytherin. NOT! (Nott!) It's a bad pun, but I wouldn't put it past JKR. CV From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 22:56:55 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:56:55 -0000 Subject: Draco's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" wrote: > lizvega2: > ... the conversation that Harry has with Draco in Madam Malkin's. > Draco says that his father is buying his books, and his mother is > up the street looking at wands. > > Does this mean that Draco's mother purchased his wand? Are there > any ramifications of this? bboy_mn: I think we frequently get ourselves into trouble when we take general speech and regard it as literal speech, or worse yet stretching it into assumed speech. When Draco says his mother is at Ollivander LOOKING at wands. Looking means looking, so we shouldn't stretch it to mean something that contradicts the book. It could just as easily mean that Mrs. Malfoy found buying books and trying on robes to be incredably boring and tedious, so she went off on her own and said she would meet them at Ollivander's. So, like many of us do, Draco generalized his statement rather than go into a long boring tedious explanation, and said she was at Ollivander's looking at wands. She was /looking/ because she wouldn't be able to buy until Draco showed up and found the right wand. However, his father was /buying/ books because he didn't need Draco there to do it. So, I personally don't see an inconsistency here. Just a thought. bboy_mn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 22:57:15 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:57:15 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91577 "potioncat" wrote: > I'm re-reading PoA, chapter 10 and noticed a few things (pp. 201-210 > Scholastic paperback) > McGonagall, Flitwick, Hagrid and Fudge arrive at the Three > Broomsticks and sit near Harry, Hermione and Ron. Then they begin to > talk to Rosmerta about Black. > Here are two interesting tid bits: > > A few threads ago we were wondering about Flitwick and his role in > OWLS. Although his subject isn't mentioned, he was a teacher during > the marauders' days. He recalls James and Sirius as being like > brothers. (I know as group we pretty much decided that Flitwick was > teaching then, but here is canon.) > > What surprises me is that Fudge refers to "James and Lily" several > times as if he had been on a first name basis with them. Oddly > enough, Professors McGonagall and Flitwick refer to James and Sirius > always as Potter and Black. > > I'm not sure if this just made the storytelling easier or if Fudge > knew the Potters well. Or if he is just a name dropper. Do we know > how old he is? Carol: McGonagall also refers to "James and Lily" back in SS/PS chapter one when she's not sure whether they're really dead and doesn't want to believe it. I think maybe James would be James in connection with Lily, his wife, but Potter in connection with Black, his schoolmate (IIRC, McG always addresses male students by their last name and female students as Miss Whatever). Also, as a married couple, James and Lily would have the same last name, Potter and Potter, so using their first names would be a way of keeping them distinct, whether the speaker was McGonagall or Fudge. OTOH, "the Potters" would serve the purpose just as well for someone who hadn't really known them, so maybe you're right. It's possible that Fudge is close enough to James and Lily's age to have known them in school, maybe a few years older. He was a junior official in the MoM when the Godric Hollow and Pettigrew incidents occurred. Carol, who thought she knew the answer when she began this post but now can see both possibilities From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 23:15:10 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:15:10 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91578 Dr. Julie (I think!) asked: Do any teachers (not DD) at Hogwarts refer to students by their first names or are the always "Mr. Potter" "Mr. Weasley", etc.? Carol: I remember one instance when Snape addressed Draco Malfoy as Draco, which surprised me at the time, considering that he usually uses last names without even a "Mr." I think it was in PoA but I'm not sure. I thought of this example in reference to the post about Snape never using first names except for calling Karkaroff "Igor," but I didn't post it because Draco is a kid, so the use of his first name didn't really count as an exception to the rule. But Snape's use of "Draco" made me think that possibly he's an occasional visitor to the Malfoy manor and that he knew little Draco before Draco attended Hogwarts. (I'll bet that Snape calls Mr. Malfoy "Lucius" as well.) Carol From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 23:18:25 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:18:25 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91579 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Miller" wrote: > Carol: > How come no one except me wants it to be Theo Nott ... > > Iggy: > > > Well, to be completely honest, I didn't even think of Theo Nott... > > Constance Vigilance (me): > > I actually hadn't thought of Theodore Nott before another friend > made that suggestion a few months ago. However, having had time to > ponder, I think TN is the perfect choice for the Good!Slytherin. > Just look at his name. He's an Evil!Slytherin. NOT! (Nott!) It's a > bad pun, but I wouldn't put it past JKR. > > CV bboy_mn: Maybe THE Good Slytherin is being taken a little too literally. Here is my idea of how the houses will unite and how we will find the Good Slytherin. I think the uniting of the house will occur around the continuing DA Club; I've said this many time before, but even if I am wrong, it still servers as a good illustration. In order for the DA Club to continue, I now propose that it must either be reduced to a Gryffindor Club, or expanded to a school-wide/all houses club. I believe Harry will choose the 'all houses' option, although, he will very reluctantly allow Slytherins into the club. Naturally, Draco and his immediate group of friends will cause trouble because that's what they do. However, since it's his club, Harry will have the right to throw them out. So Draco and his immediate friends will leave. But, several Slytherins will continue with the club because they believe being able to defend themselves is more important than kissing Draco's butt. Plus, there is also the possibility that they are having fun and making friends. Chief amoung those who stay will be one outstanding level-headed trustworthy Slytherin; he will be THE Good Slytherin, the one who changes Harry's mind about Slytherins in general. The other Slytherins who stay with the club won't be THE Good Slytherin, they wiil be just plain good Slytherins. So, 'The Good Slytherin' theory doesn't profess that there will be one and only one good Slytherin, but that among the good Slytherin will be one outstanding Slytherin. Conclusion, T. Knot and Blaise Zabini could both become good Slytherins, but my money is mostly on Blaise as being THE Good Slytherin. Finally, even if my DA Club idea doesn't play out exactly the way I described, it still servers as a good illustration of how the houses can become united, there can be more that one good Slytherin, and at the same time, there can be THE Good Slytherin. Just a thought. bboy_mn From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Feb 25 00:15:47 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:15:47 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > :: Entropy :: started us all thinking by saying: > > Of course, we are all aware of the mysterious second > curse. We all know that Bellatrix cast the first, which Sirius > dodged. But then "the second jet of light hit him squarely in the > chest." Not "Bellatrix's curse", not even a "green jet" which would > surely be an AK and would seal Sirius' fate. Just "a second jet". > Given that Dumbledore has already appeared, and all of the Death > Eaters except for Bellatrix have begun to run for it, who is it that > took the time to stop running from Dumbledore to cast a curse at > Sirius while he was already being held off by Bellatrix? Perhaps it wasn't one of the Death Eaters, but an OOP member, simply giving Sirius a convenient nudge. > > Eustace_Scrubb whines gratingly: > > Although JKR has not specifically attributed "the second jet of light" > to Bellatrix, the circumstantial evidence certainly suggests it was > her: > > If Sirius had fallen where anyone had been able to look at his body, > it certainly seems likely that he would have had the classic AK > victim's expression on his face: eyes wide open, shock, fear, > surprise. > > Now this all makes sense to me, but I'm aware that there are gaps inwhat we've been told that lead us to question the evidence: why didn't JKR tell us the jet was green? Why didn't we hear the dramatic cry of "Avada Kevadra" from Bellatrix? > > I'd guess that it's the combination of the chaos in the room, the > arrival of Dumbledore drawing attention from everything else and the fact that we're seeing this from Harry's POV--he's exhausted, overstimulated and cannot possibly take in each detail--and perhaps would have blocked this out anyway. > > From JKR's POV, I'd propose that she _wants_ us all to wonder whetherSirius is "properly dead" or not, and had we seen green light and heard "AK" we'd have no reason to doubt.<< One of the rules of the "fair" mystery is that there cannot be false clues. They can be misinterpreted, but properly understood, every clue must lead to the solution of a mystery. The reader has been told that someone would make an "unbearable sacrifice" (OOP front inside flap of the US dust jacket). There has also been foreshadowing of death from the moment of Sirius's very first appearance as the Grim. To have the death be faked would falsify those clues, never mind that no one would ever believe JKR's interviews again. The ambiguity around Sirius's death must be there for a reason. Drawing out the agony as Harry struggles to grasp that Sirius is really gone provides the necessary distraction from the ambiguity over who killed him. It works...I didn't realize there was any ambiguity until it was pointed out on this list, and I was *looking* for it. So IMO, an Order member fired the curse that pushed Sirius through the veil. That's why he looked surprised...just like Cedric, and probably for the same reason--he recognized the killer and it was someone he thought was a friend. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Feb 25 00:34:19 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:34:19 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > SNIP< > I thought of this example in reference to the post about Snape never > using first names except for calling Karkaroff "Igor," but I didn't > post it because Draco is a kid, so the use of his first name didn't > really count as an exception to the rule. But Snape's use of "Draco" > made me think that possibly he's an occasional visitor to the Malfoy > manor and that he knew little Draco before Draco attended Hogwarts. > (I'll bet that Snape calls Mr. Malfoy "Lucius" as well.) Do you remember about when those posts were or what the name might have been? I've been thinking of both of those cases as well and wanted to discuss them. I won't go into it until I've had a chance to see what others have said. Potioncat From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 00:37:16 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:37:16 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > One of the rules of the "fair" mystery is that there cannot be false > clues. They can be misinterpreted, but properly understood, > every clue must lead to the solution of a mystery. The reader has > been told that someone would make an "unbearable sacrifice" > (OOP front inside flap of the US dust jacket). There has also > been foreshadowing of death from the moment of Sirius's very > first appearance as the Grim. To have the death be faked would > falsify those clues, never mind that no one would ever believe > JKR's interviews again. Could it be that 'unbearable sacrifice" was for Sirius to go away for a while (have no clue where ;o)), knowing how badly it will hurt Harry. About the false clues - yes, maybe, but JKR mixes so many different genre in them that I never considered them to be "pure" (or fair) mystery. Again, could someome please direct me to interview where JKR says out loud that Sirius is really and truly dead and never ever coming back. It will shatter my dellusions, but that's Ok. :o) Yes, she said how hard it was for her to write a scene, etc., but I don't remember anything about Sirius being truly dead. Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Feb 25 00:42:22 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:42:22 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91583 > bboy_mn wrote: > > Maybe THE Good Slytherin is being taken a little too literally. > > Here is my idea of how the houses will unite and how we will find the > Good Slytherin. I hope it isn't bad form to ask a question like this, Where did the idea of a "good Slytherin" come from? I know this line of posts evolved from one about things we'd like to see or hate to see in the next books. But aside from our own interests in seeing good Slytherin(s) is there any canon or interiviews to suggest it? Potioncat (who hopes so!) From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Feb 25 00:51:36 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:51:36 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" wrote: > Do any teachers (not DD) at Hogwarts refer to students by their > first names or are the always "Mr. Potter" "Mr. Weasley", etc.? Umbridge (I know she doesn't really count) calls Draco by his first name then either calls him Malfoy or Mr. Malfoy a few moments later when he pushes to go into the forest with her and she gets mad. Lupin calls several of the Gryffindors by first names (chapter 7 PoA) while he is a teacher. I think (but it may be movie contamination here) that Lockhart did as well. McGonagall refers to James and Lily after they are killed. Potioncat From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 01:04:08 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 01:04:08 -0000 Subject: Zabini and Nott/was The Good, The Bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Conclusion, T. Knot and Blaise Zabini could both become good > Slytherins, but my money is mostly on Blaise as being THE Good Slytherin. "K" I would personally like to see more than one good Slytherin. If Zabini and Nott both end up on the good side that's fine with me. I do feel the Slytherin who can see the thestrals might possibly be one of the good. However, we don't know who he is. ~There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see them: a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face, and Neville, whose eyes were following the swishing progress of the long black tail. Immensely pleased to feel that he was at last going to understand the mystery of these horses, Harry raised his hand. Hagrid nodded at him. "Yeah...yeah, I knew you'd be able ter, Harry," he said seriously, "An' you too, Neville, eh? An'___" "Excuse me," said Malfoy in a sneering voice, "but what exactly are we supposed to be seeing? oop/ch 21/pg 445/us We are introduced to this kid, given a short physical description, and he's named right alongside Harry and Neville. But we aren't told his name. Why? If Theodore Nott is the same boy who can see the thestrals, why not just say so? Theodore Nott has also been seen with Malfoy and his gang in the library. ~If anything more was needed to complete Harry's happiness, it was Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle's reactions. He saw them with their heads together later that afternoon in the library, together with a weedy- looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott. They looked around at Harry as he browsed the shelves for the book he needed on Partial Vanishment, and Goyle cracked his knuckles threateningly and Malfoy whispered something undoubtedly malevolent to Crabbe. Harry knew perfectly well why they were acting like this: He had named all of their fathers as Death Eaters. oop/ch 26/pg 583/us We didn't see a Zabini DE at the graveyard. That doesn't mean there wasn't one there as not all DE's were named. Yet we do see parents of other kids who attend Hogwarts being named. If Zabini's father and/or mother was a DE why not name them unless they are of some importance and we will see them later. Or unless one/both have been killed and that is why Blaise can see the thestrals. Of course it is possible Nott has also seen a death. Some feel that Nott resembles Snape due to the following descriptions: ~...together with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott. (weedy: Of a scrawny build; spindly; gawky.) oop/ch 26/pg 583/us "Snape-the-teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him..." oop/ch 28/pg 640/us But are the weedy-Nott and the stringy-Slytherin one and the same? Not necessarily. ~There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see them: a stringy Slytherin boy... oop/ch 21/pg 445/us Here are two teenagers described as 'stringy'. Both in Slytherin. One is in the same year as Harry. The other, of course, is Snape in his youth. Twice JKR has used the word 'stringy' to describe a teenage boy in one book. Yet we don't know for sure who the stingy-thestral kid is. I guess I do find Blaise Zabini more interesting for a couple of reasons, one being the way he was sorted. SORTING The following are in the same year as Harry: Millicent Bulstrode, Vincent Crabbe, Gregory Goyle, Draco Malfoy, Theodore Nott, Pansy Parkinson, and Blaise Zabini. ~He was so relieved to have been chosen and not put in Slytherin, he hardly noticed that he was getting the loudest cheer yet. And now there were only three people left to be sorted. "Well done, Ron, excellent," said Percy Weasley pompously across Harry as "Zabini, Blaise," was made a Slytherin. Professor McGonagall rolled up her scroll and took the Sorting Hat away. ps/ch 7/pg 91 See, no big event for Blasie. Only for the famous Harry Potter. All eyes are on Harry and during this time JKR slips in Blaise. And why should we bother to think twice about Blaise? He's just another kid being sorted. But this kid is at least named. We know he is there. And JKR doesn't just throw in names for nothing. So while the reader's attention is on the famous Potter, Blaise just takes his seat with the Slytherins. I just think there's more to Blaise than we know and I do believe it's possible he is the stringy-Slytherin. "K" From nydede9 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 15:55:02 2004 From: nydede9 at yahoo.com (Deanna Benfante) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:55:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040224155502.85773.qmail@web60702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91586 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote: > I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR on > March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information from > her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, > what would it be? Hi, I'd ask her if she was ever going to give Snape a 'love interest' - and, if so, could I play the part in the movie!!!!!!!!!!!! From ALisha0715 at aol.com Tue Feb 24 21:49:14 2004 From: ALisha0715 at aol.com (iam2cute4u2have2001) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:49:14 -0000 Subject: The Issue of Death In Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91587 Alright, first and firemost this is my first post here. Hi i'm Alisha! I'm not technically a grown up, but I actually possess brain cells, so feel free and imagine that I'm a 'grown up' because I have the mind of a forty year old. Now that that's done, don't shoot me if someone has asked this already. I know this may found very morbid, but I've always wondered about the concept of Death in Harry Potter. I'm just really curious about how witches and wizards deal with the subject of death, and do they have funerals for their dead? I've been trying to look this up on discussion boards and in the books themselves, and so far I've only found little clues. One clue I found was towardes the end of Goblet of Fire, when Harry saw the 'echo' of Diggory telling him to take him to his parents. Obviously, the Diggory's must have recieved their sons body and done something with it. I don't think they BURY their dead like we do, because no one in the books has ever mentioned to Harry a gravesite where his parents' bodies could be. So obviously, if they don't bury the departed, they don't have funerals. But then, what do they do? Also, I'm not sure this is in the book, but in the movie, (I know, shoot me) when Harry was in Riddle's journal, they were carrying Mrytle's body off on a strecher, it's very uh... mugglelish don't you think? But then again, Rowling was very involved in the production of the movies, and I don't think she'd allow this detail in the movie if this is not what wizards did with their dead. Alright! I need to stop before I go mad! Please , anybody, help me out on this, feel free to e-mail me at Alisha0715 at aol.com with your theories. From c_robocker at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 23:01:15 2004 From: c_robocker at yahoo.com (c_robocker) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:01:15 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91588 "jozoed" wrote: > Here in the UK JKR has given several interviews describing her > reasons for Sirius' death. > > > > > Entropy responded: > JKR's interviews describing the writing of Sirius' death are > certainly canon for his death being permanent. > > > > > Carol: > I think the voices behind the veil and Luna's faith that she'll see > her mother again are reflections of JKR's own Christian beliefs. I hated to snip all the good discussion out, but for the sake of brevity... I agree that I first thought of the reflections of Christian beliefs that Carol mentions. The other phrase that JKR said in an interview was that 'it has to be' when referring to the death in Book 5. I don't think that Sirius's death has been faked, neither am I convinced that he's 'properly' dead although I am convinced that Harry will not see him again in the flesh. However, I take her comment in the interview to open the possibility that Sirius can and will do something from where ever (or *when* ever) he is, that is crucial to the plot. -CRobo, wishing she had more evidence to support or destroy the theory! From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Feb 24 23:28:30 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:28:30 -0000 Subject: Crouch's motivation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91589 > > greatlit2003: > > > Why did Crouch teach Harry to fight off the Imperius curse? He > > actually helped Harry stand up to Voldemort. > > Antosha: It seems to me you could argue this a couple of ways. First of all, he could simply be 'getting in to character'--the MoM OK'd Moody's use of Unforgivable Curses, so Crouch! Moody feels he needs to follow through and actually teach them. Another way of looking at it is that Crouch may not anticipate that Harry will actually be able to throw off the curse--how much easier would everything have been if Harry had simply spent the entire 4th year under Crouch's direct control? Whoops--instead Crouch has taught Harry an invaluable lesson. (If only Harry had applied himself to the very closely related skill of Oclumency the next year! Ah, well...) Finally--and I think this is the one that fits the book and characters best--Crouch is DEEPLY (if not insanely) resentful of his father's abuse of the Imperius curse and extremely proud of his own ability to shake that curse off. Remember--it took him a decade to learn how to do it. He's got to have a (possibly irrational) desire to share what he's learned. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Feb 25 01:41:08 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 01:41:08 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91590 dumbledore11214 said: > Again, could someome please direct me to interview where JKR says out loud that Sirius is really and truly dead and never ever coming back. It will shatter my dellusions, but that's Ok. :o) Yes, she said how hard it was for her to write a scene, etc., but I don't remember anything about Sirius being truly dead.< ======= June 19, 2003 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3004594.stm JEREMY PAXMAN: And is there going to be a death in this book? JK ROWLING: Yes. A horrible, horrible JEREMY PAXMAN: A horrible death of a significant figure. JK ROWLING: Yeah. I went into the kitchen having done it.... JEREMY PAXMAN: What, killed this person? JK ROWLING: Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and that was it. It was definitive. And the person was definitely dead. And I walked into the kitchen crying and Neil said to me, "What on earth is wrong?" and I said, "Well, I've just killed the person". Neil doesn't know who the person is. But I said, "I've just killed the person. And he said, "Well, don't do it then." I thought, a doctor you know....and I said "Well it just doesn't work like that. You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer." ============ 10/12/1999 http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/109 9-connectiontransc.html Peter, what's your guess about Lily? What's the real story of Harry's mother?I don't really know, but I'm guessing that, maybe she is going to come back to life, maybe, in the 7th book or something like that. Well, it would be nice, but I'll tell you something. You've raised a really interesting point there, Peter, because when I started writing the books, the first thing I had to decide was not what magic can do, but what it can't do. I had to set limits on it immediately and decide what the perimeters are. One of the most important things I decided was that magic cannot bring dead people back to life. That's one of the most profound things. The natural laws of death applies to wizards as it applies to Muggles and there is no returning once you're properly dead. You know, they might be able to save very close to death people better than we can, by magic. They have certain knowledge we don't, but once you're dead, you're dead. So, yeah, I'm afraid there will be no coming back for Harry's parents. ======== So, to sum up, the significant death in Book 5 is "definitely dead" and "once you're dead, you're dead". Sorry about that. ::hands tissues around to the crew of SAD DENIAL. Pippin From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 01:39:34 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 01:39:34 -0000 Subject: Crouch's motivation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91591 psychobirdgirl: > I think that while Crouch was at Hogwart's he started to see the > consequences of his actions, and acted toward rectification in some > instances. After he saw Neville's reaction to the Cruciatus he took > him and gave him a book he would enjoy and some praise. Now mostly > that is to help Harry get to Voldemort, but I think that there is a > part of Crouch's brain not totally committed to evil, as though he > were under a curse, that might still try to change things for which > that part of him recognizes as his wrongdoing. I don't think he is > actually under a curse but maybe is suffering from some mental > disorder, like bi-polar disorder or multiple personalities, and that > the part of him that once was dominant is now trapped deep inside > the Crouch that is so evil and against what he once was. > > So about the Imperius, I think that the part of Crouch that sees his > wrongdoing and feels remorse thinks that it would be unfair to send > Harry to Voldemort unprepared, and since he cannot undo all that has > been planned, he teaches Harry something to make the fight more fair. > I disagree completely. Crouch stayed in disguise an entire year, think of how much dedication that takes. He has to continuously cut the real Moody's hair and feed him, while brewing a complicated potion, simply so that his master can kill a 14 year old boy who has never hurt an innocent fly. Are these the actions of a man who feels remorse for what he has done? What about after he was forced to take the vertasirum? He smiles when he thinks about his master rewarding, and while he is under it, he also tells of how he has ALWAYS been loyal to Voldemort and still is. Why would he teach Harry something that he knows might help Harry against Voldemort? Simple really, DD told him to. He says in the class that he is supposed to only teach them the theory behind the curses, but DD told him to show the kids what they look like. Would a guy who is posing as DD friend refuse an order from DD? I do not think so. Plus DD is the most powerful wizard alive at the time the curse is show, would you want to cross him either? Further if you reread crouch's trial, he appeals to his father to save him from azkaban, not because he feels remorse for what he did, but because he is afraid. He doesn't say that he is sorry for what he has done, but he denies that he did it. He lies to his father in order escape punishment that he deserves. If one feels remorse, usually acceptance of punishment follows. It is justice that he receives the cruse because he was always evil. Even when his plan failed he was going to kill Harry. Remorse? I do not buy it. John, who thinks if crouch can stay evil at a place like hogwarts that is full with wonderful, he deserved what he got. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 02:01:25 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 02:01:25 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91592 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > dumbledore11214 said: > > Again, could someome please direct me to interview where > JKR says out loud that Sirius is really and truly dead and never > ever coming back. It will shatter my dellusions, but that's Ok. :o) > Yes, she said how hard it was for her to write a scene, etc., but I > don't remember anything about Sirius being truly dead.< > ======= > June 19, 2003 > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3004594.stm > > JEREMY PAXMAN: And is there going to be a death in this book? > > JK ROWLING: Yes. A horrible, horrible > > JEREMY PAXMAN: A horrible death of a significant figure. > > JK ROWLING: Yeah. I went into the kitchen having done it.... > > JEREMY PAXMAN: What, killed this person? > > JK ROWLING: Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it > and that was it. It was definitive. And the person was definitely > dead. And I walked into the kitchen crying and Neil said to me, > "What on earth is wrong?" and I said, "Well, I've just killed the > person". Neil doesn't know who the person is. But I said, "I've > just killed the person. And he said, "Well, don't do it then." I > thought, a doctor you know....and I said "Well it just doesn't work > like that. You are writing children's books, you need to be a > ruthless killer." > ============ > 10/12/1999 > > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/109 > 9-connectiontransc.html > > Peter, what's your guess about Lily? What's the real story of > Harry's mother?I don't really know, but I'm guessing > that, maybe > she is going to come back to life, maybe, in the 7th book or > something like that. > > > Well, it would be nice, but I'll tell you something. You've > raised a really interesting point there, Peter, because when I > started writing the books, the first thing I had to decide was not > what magic can do, but what it can't do. I had to set limits on > it > immediately and decide what the perimeters are. One of the > most important things I decided was that magic cannot bring > dead people back to life. That's one of the most profound things. > The natural laws of death applies to wizards as it applies to > Muggles and there is no returning once you're properly dead. > You know, they might be able to save very close to death people > better than we can, by magic. They have certain knowledge we > don't, but once you're dead, you're dead. So, yeah, > I'm afraid there will be no coming back for Harry's parents. > ======== > > So, to sum up, the significant death in Book 5 is "definitely dead" > and "once you're dead, you're dead". Sorry about that. ::hands > tissues around to the crew of SAD DENIAL. > > Pippin Yes, that was the interview I thought about. Yes, she was talking about writing a horrible death, but she is not saying anything about no coming back for Sirus and him being "properly dead". Pippin, I know about my dellusions, but I'll just stand here in my wrongness till the end of book 7. :o) Alla From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net Wed Feb 25 02:04:28 2004 From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne Dragon) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:04:28 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crouch's motivation References: Message-ID: <005401c3fb43$b38f4f00$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 91593 {psychobirdgirl:} So about the Imperius, I think that the part of Crouch that sees his wrongdoing and feels remorse thinks that it would be unfair to send Harry to Voldemort unprepared, and since he cannot undo all that has been planned, he teaches Harry something to make the fight more fair. {john} I disagree completely. Crouch stayed in disguise an entire year, think of how much dedication that takes. He has to continuously cut the real Moody's hair and feed him, while brewing a complicated potion, simply so that his master can kill a 14 year old boy who has never hurt an innocent fly. Are these the actions of a man who feels remorse for what he has done? {Anne} Personally, I think that Crouch actaully disobeyed Dumbly (if Dumbly even mentioned 'showing' the curses to Harry's class), and that his showing the Unforgivables to Harry's was neither due to Crouch following orders, nor feeling remorse and trying to help Harry the only way he could. What I honestly think is that he was unhinged. Completely, totally, unhinged. He didn't show Harry's class the Unforgivables to help them...but more likely because he knew that 1) It would probably scare the kids (especially Harry--who has 'flashbacks' to his mom's death--something I suspect Voldy might have an inkling of-- and scare Neville (as well as give him an opportunity later to chum up to both kids to smooth over any 'bad' felings either might have had in class)-who I'm sure every DE knew what was done to his parents...). and 2) Crouch just wanted to mess around while he could. I doubt that it even occured to Crouch Jr. that it would really actaully help Harry later--if you really pay attention to how he speaks and acts, even as Moody--you can tell he is seriously unhinged, not all there, a few bottles short of a six pack, etc. Heck, not even Moody, in book 5, is as paranoid and flat out crazy as Crouch-as-Moody in book 4...and Moody supposedly IS a nutcase, if you believe the rumors said about him in both book 4 and 5... And quite honestly true, crazy folks just don't think in the same, logical way...where you or I might go "doh! I'll be teachingg Harry how to fight off the Dark Lord", Crouch was probably going along the lines of "Heh...let's see just how far I CAN push the brat, shall I?", menawhile forgetting that the more he pushes...the more Harry will learn... Not to mention, after 'teaching' them how to resist the Imperious Curse, he can certainly go and tell Voldy just how strong each of those kids are against the Imperious, now, can't he? *EG* From grahadh at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 02:37:29 2004 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (grahadh) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 02:37:29 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91594 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > I hope it isn't bad form to ask a question like this, Where did the > idea of a "good Slytherin" come from? I know this line of posts > evolved from one about things we'd like to see or hate to see in the > next books. But aside from our own interests in seeing good > Slytherin(s) is there any canon or interiviews to suggest it? > > Potioncat (who hopes so!) Now Dhyana: Not to open the whole can of worms regarding Snape's motivations and attitudes, but I think he is where the idea of a "good Slytherin" comes from. He is a member of the OoP, as well as the head of Slytherin House. He is definately a Slytherin in his attitudes and personality, but he is fighting for the good guyes. Snape is still a mystery to us; Harry doesn't trust him at all, while Dumbledore puts alot of faith in him. We shall see the role Snape plays as the war develops, but so far it seems that Dumbledore has been right to trust him. So IMO, when we are guessing who the good Slytherin will be we are really guessing who the _next_ good Slytherin (or the good Slytherin from Harry's generation) will be. -Dhyana, who is a little worried about posting a Snape message because he is such a contraversial character (but he's so much fun to analyze!) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 03:33:29 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 03:33:29 -0000 Subject: The scar connection: is JKR cheating? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91595 The interesting "second Voldemort war" thread from a few days ago made me do some research into the mind connection between Harry and LV, and I discovered a strange inconsistency in its description. In OotP both Snape and DD tell us that the scar marks a connection between the minds of Harry and LV. A logical implication of this connection is that, when Harry receives perceptions from LV's mind, he should see them from LV's point of view. And indeed, this is how Harry's "visions" are described. Whenever the point of view is given, it is always through LV's eyes. The one exception is the snake's attack on Arthur Weasley, which Harry sees through the snake's eyes, but this is logically explained by Snape in that LV was inhabiting the snake at that time. If, however, you go back to GoF with this new knowledge about the mind connection, you'll find that Harry's visions from LV's mind are *not* through LV's eyes. There are two such visions in GoF: The dream in the beginning of GoF: this is the first time Harry receives more than just pain through the scar connection. It seems that Harry's point of view is located behind LV's chair. Harry can't remember what LV looked like: "All Harry knew was that at the moment when Voldemort's chair had swung around, and he, Harry, had seen what was sitting in it, he had felt a spasm of horror, which had awoken him or had that been the pain in his scar?" But Harry doesn't see the scene from Frank Brice's point of view either: "there had definitely been an old man; Harry had watched him fall to the ground" and in the previous chapter we are specifically told Frank was dead before he hit the ground. Harry doesn't see it from Nagini's point of view either: "There had been a snake on a hearth rug". The dream during the divination lesson: Harry dreams that he is riding to LV's hideout on the back of an eagle owl. This awl, in fact, seems to be the real owl that imposter!Moody sent LV to notify him about killing Crouch Sr., since LV mentions this in his words to Wormtail. Again, Harry sees things from a point of view located behind LV's chair, so he does not see LV, only the tip of his wand, and Wormtail and Nagini in front of the chair. This inconsistency between GoF and OotP bothers me because it seems like JKR was cheating us in GoF, so we would not realise too early about the scar connection. She made it look like the visions were due to some vogue prophetic abilities of Harry. After all, we all know that "he saw it in a dream" is a standard plot device authors use to give the hero some knowledge he couldn't have in any realistic way, so we haven't had any reason to think about mechanistic explanations, such as a mind connection. Until now I was under the impression that JKR might hide things from us, or through red herrings to confuse us, but she is always consistent. Except for flints, of course, but until now we only had flints in issues that are not central to the plot, such as the number of students. So I'll be very grateful if somebody can find a logical explanation to this inconsistency in Harry's point of view. Neri From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Wed Feb 25 03:33:19 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 03:33:19 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? - Crouch/Imperious In-Reply-To: <20040224204158.QEGB16572.mta5-svc.business.ntl.com@your0q6xoyg76x> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alison" wrote: > > > Why did Crouch teach Harry to fight off the Imperius curse? He > actually helped Harry stand up to Voldemort. > > greatlit2003 > > > I always wondered about that too. I don't keep up with this list on a > regular enough basis to know if its been discussed, but if it has I've > missed it. > > Alison I would guess that it's because Crouch spent so much time under the spell himself. Either he did not want to see anyone subjected to it, or he could not help but show off his skills at evading it. Add to that the fact that he needed to stay "cool" to continue guiding Harry through the torunament. Kristen From starropal at hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 03:43:53 2004 From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:43:53 -0600 Subject: Filk - That You'll Feel Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91597 That Scar With Feeling by Star Opal; filked from Joss Whedon's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Once More With Feeling". Dedicated to the word 'jaunty' - which isn't used but is present in spirit! That You'll Feel To the tune of _What You Feel_ THE SCENE: Goblet of Fire; Chapter 33, The Death Eaters Voldemort having just become corporeal walks over to the bound Harry. Voldemort: Why'd you turn away? Don't you like my... bod'? *Turns with a flourish* "Ah!" Unsure? Need a replay? Well, you see your blood I robbed Did ever your imagination Think our blood would join in an incantation? So what do you say- Why dont we chat a while? *Noticing Harry's in pain he smiles and continues* Tell me does it sting? Want to scream and shout? The point of this thing In the open get you out No safety here, no help a'coming Your mother's protective blood, in me is running Albus is absent, that's what its all about Cause there's pain that you'll feel, boy Crucio's just what you'll feel, boy All these memories, many years have gone Since my dad and grands were killed, I was the one Now got dad's bone: unknown, dead offering Plus old Wormtail's hand he's free in giving That's the penalty when you join my marked throng I brought you down into this town Before we end this scene, Everyone'll know that I have killed my foe Along with doubts that have been! Cause there's pain that you'll feel, boy! Harry: No! You see, my head screams >From your amount of evil Voldemort: There's more believe boy! Harry: Enemy? Blood you need? So now Pete is your lackey? Voldemort: I will bring all wizards to ruin Just have to have a Death Eater meetin' Harry: You neglect and forget the great Dumbledore Voldemort: Send back your remains, you and the spare Then no one will oppose me! They won't dare! Harry: When I'm missed you'll get kissed By a smelly dementor *Voldemort stops and gets close to Harry and says softly...* Voldemort: Now you're touchable, *He runs a finger down the side of Harry's face. Harry screams in pain* That's what its all about... _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ From DBoyken at aol.com Wed Feb 25 04:07:54 2004 From: DBoyken at aol.com (Deb) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:07:54 -0000 Subject: Occlumency lessons Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91598 Does anyone else feel that Snape (sir!) didn't try particularly hard to teach occlumency to Harry--even before the Pensieve? He never explained how or WHAT Harry should do, other than "clear your mind of all emotions" before diving in and attacking him. But what I REALLY wonder at is that Hermione--the bookworm, researcher extraordinaire that she is--didn't immediately start digging out references to force on Harry when he started the lessons in the first place. Or at least when he was making no progress with Snape (sir!)--it's not like she doesn't know how Snape treats Harry anyway, I'm sure she could well imagine that the lessons weren't exactly smooth and easy like his Patronus lessons with Lupin had been. If she can pick up all these other skills (like the hex she put on the DA signup sheet, or on the gold galleons to announce each meeting) from books, why not occlumency so that she could help Harry?? (And, speaking of those galleons--what do you suppose happened to them once the DA meetings ended? Did anybody spend them? What if they did and got busted for counterfeit galleons?? (grin).) Deb in NJ From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 04:27:05 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:27:05 -0000 Subject: Occlumency lessons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91599 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deb" wrote: > Does anyone else feel that Snape (sir!) didn't try particularly hard > to teach occlumency to Harry--even before the Pensieve? He never > explained how or WHAT Harry should do, other than "clear your mind of > all emotions" before diving in and attacking him. Well, I can say many bad words about Snape's attitude towards Harry in OoP (I don't think I will forgive him stopping lessons for a long time to come :o)), but in all fairness we don't know what are the correct instructions for teaching occlumency are. Yes, "empty your mind' does not seem like much and I certainly want to say that it was not enough, but more detailed instructions seem to be the product of fanfiction only so far. I would definitely say that Harry did practice, untill he got frustrated (was it Annemehr who gave canon quotes? I may try to find it tomorrow). What definitely bothers me about Snape as instructor besides many other things is the fact that Harry seemed to feel weakened after the lessons. > But what I REALLY wonder at is that Hermione--the bookworm, > researcher extraordinaire that she is--didn't immediately start > digging out references to force on Harry when he started the lessons > in the first place. Or at least when he was making no progress with > Snape (sir!)--it's not like she doesn't know how Snape treats Harry > anyway, I'm sure she could well imagine that the lessons weren't > exactly smooth and easy like his Patronus lessons with Lupin had > been. If she can pick up all these other skills (like the hex she put > on the DA signup sheet, or on the gold galleons to announce each > meeting) from books, why not occlumency so that she could help Harry?? > > (And, speaking of those galleons--what do you suppose happened to > them once the DA meetings ended? Did anybody spend them? What if they > did and got busted for counterfeit galleons?? (grin).) > > Deb in NJ I like Hermione, but she sure was screaching a lot in OoP. i am glad though that she did not learn occlumency miraculously overnight, becasue no matter how smart she is, she just cannot know everything, can't she? :o) Alla From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 04:48:22 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:48:22 -0000 Subject: The scar connection: is JKR cheating? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > The interesting "second Voldemort war" thread from a few days ago > made me do some research into the mind connection between Harry and > LV, and I discovered a strange inconsistency in its description. > > In OotP both Snape and DD tell us that the scar marks a connection > between the minds of Harry and LV. A logical implication of this > connection is that, when Harry receives perceptions from LV's mind, > he should see them from LV's point of view. And indeed, this is how > Harry's "visions" are described. > > If, however, you go back to GoF with this new knowledge about the > mind connection, you'll find that Harry's visions from LV's mind are > *not* through LV's eyes. There are two such visions in GoF: > > The dream in the beginning of GoF: this is the first time Harry > receives more than just pain through the scar connection. It seems > that Harry's point of view is located behind LV's chair. > > The dream during the divination lesson: Harry dreams that he is > riding to LV's hideout on the back of an eagle owl. > > This inconsistency between GoF and OotP bothers me because it seems > like JKR was cheating us in GoF, so we would not realise too early > about the scar connection. > > Neri Annemehr: Because that dream in the beginning of GoF ended with Harry having strong pains in his scar, I had always connected the scar with the dream visions. The same thing happened after the dream during Divination class. I think what JKR is writing here is a progression: the scar connection has been increasing in strength and effect. As you say, in the early books all Harry ever perceives is pain from it. In GoF the visions begin. They are from a point of view external to Voldemort. Harry is seeing events, hearing conversations as an outside observer. Perhaps this is one reason Voldemort remains unaware of it so far. In OoP we see the connection strengthening by leaps and bounds. When Harry feels a sharp pain in his scar (more than just the prickling), he begins to find he can connect an emotion that Voldemort is feeling to the event. For the first time, Harry is getting *inside* Voldemort's head. At the end of a week's detention, when Umbridge touched Harry's hand and Harry felt the pain in his scar he also felt a jolt of emotion in his stomach which he was later able to identify as happiness on Voldemort's part. At the end of a Quidditch practice he felt another pain and was able to tell Ron that Voldemort was angry that something wasn't happening fast enough. In the same way, the visions Harry has in the fifth book have moved to *inside* Voldemort's head. Harry so identifies with this point of view that it confuses him: "I *was* the snake!" Later he saw long white fingers at the end of his arm and the snaky face of Voldemort when he looked at his reflection in a mirror -- that was the vision where Rookwood told him exactly who could take the prophecy down off the shelf. Eventually we realise that all those dreams of corridors and locked doors which began at Privet Drive were reflections of Voldemort's desire. Additionally, the first time Harry is "inside Voldemort's head" and has an extremely strong emotional reaction to it, during the attack on Mr. Weasley, some of Harry's emotion is perceived by Voldemort and he realises the connection exists (perhaps even before that Voldemort has felt something but had never identified it?). Soon Voldemort begins to use his new knowledge to send Harry the location of the orb in preparation to luring him into the DoM. I for one am very curious to see what develops next. Annemehr From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 05:13:10 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:13:10 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91601 Carol: I thought of this example in reference to the post about Snape never using first names except for calling Karkaroff "Igor," but I didn't post it because Draco is a kid, so the use of his first name didn't really count as an exception to the rule. But Snape's use of "Draco" made me think that possibly he's an occasional visitor to the Malfoy manor and that he knew little Draco before Draco attended Hogwarts. (I'll bet that Snape calls Mr. Malfoy "Lucius" as well.) > Potioncat: Do you remember about when those posts were or what the name might have been? I've been thinking of both of those cases as well and wanted to discuss them. I won't go into it until I've had a chance to see what others have said. Carol: It took me a moment to understand your question as there's really only one post. The other existed only in my imagination--but since I said the same thing here that I would have said earlier, it doesn't really matter. Surprisingly, I actually found the post I thought about responding to but didn't using a search for Karkaroff on our goblin-made search engine. That post is Catlady's and is mostly on other topics: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91445 Here's the relevant paragraph: "(Karkaroff and Snape stood together in that circle (according to both theories) and they called each other by first names, the only person Snape has been seen to call by first name. That's my evidence that Death Eaters who stand together have a relationship. Altho' the Lestrange gap was only big enough for two people, so Rabastan's place must not have been next to his brother.)" She seems to be suggesting that because Snape and Karkaroff were on first-name terms, they must have stood together in the circle (presumably in the old days before Godric's Hollow, not in the graveyard scene where neither is apparently present). I think that's reaching a bit as I'm pretty sure that at least some of the DEs knew each other, and certainly the Lestrange's identities and Malfoy's would have been known to everyone present as they were more or less the leaders. Anyway, I was going to respond that Snape also addressed Draco by his first name but decided that since he was a kid he didn't count. Certainly *he* didn't stand next to Snape in the circle! Anyway, I hope this is what you were looking for because it's all I have on the subject. :-) Carol From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 06:00:38 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 06:00:38 -0000 Subject: Looking into Parvati's head (Was:Balance of power) In-Reply-To: <000001c3fa15$a17f0820$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91602 Carol: > > If Harry had been able to enter Parvati's mind, he might very well > > have felt her frustration as she struggled with an answer or sensed > > her excitement as she remembered the right answer to a difficult > > question, but he would not have seen (or heard) the answers because > > the legilmens does not read thoughts--unless he could somehow have > > looked through her eyes at the answers she was writing on the paper. > > snip > > Iggy here: > > Then there's the really important one... Harry has never *learned* > Legilmency. > > Just because he occasionally sees through Voldemort's eyes does not mean > that he knows the same spells, as has been evidenced a number of times. > > Besides... if Voldemort were trying to "feed the answers" to Harry, > wouldn't he send wrong answers. snip Sue Responds: In my original post I really thought of Voldemort in a position of having to "hear" from Harry's end the information that was going out on his paper, not the other way around. I don't think Voldemort would care in any way how Harry is doing in school, Auror ambitions or not. It only amused me...how boring it would have been for him to have to wait through History of Magic for Harry to fall asleep. (I write this knowing it is *most* unlikely Voldemort would be hanging around waiting for Harry to fall asleep, he most likely planted the dream at an earlier time.) As for the whole legilimency "thing", I am going to play a little bit of devil's advocate here. We really do not know how it works. We know from Snape that you cannot rifle through someone else's mind and simply choose what you would like to learn. I will say, however, that Voldemort (who I know is a very powerful legilimens) is able to isolate the *exact* thought he wants: "No, Bella, his is not lying...I see the truth looking at me from within his worthless mind..." (OotP US ed pg.812). This being said, we do not know what Harry would be able to see inside Parvati's mind if, in fact, he is able to percieve anything. It is my contention that, using legilimency, one would be able to access actual thoughts, not just feelings. If Parvati was concentrating all of her energy on the test in front of her, and the question and its answers were at the forefront of her thoughts, Harry would have indeed seen/felt the same thing. So to make a long paragraph more concise, if Harry was (accidentally on purpose) using legilimency during the HOM OWL, and it worked (just looking at the the back of Parvati's head), he would possibly have seen/felt what was most important to her at the time. That being the memories of the facts for the OWL she was taking. I really do think Harry got more from those Occlumency lessons with Snape than we are yet aware. This also makes me wonder something. Does Voldemort really think that Harry's mind is worthless, or is he just putting him down? He knows about the connection between the two of them and he is about to find out that he will not be able to "dwell" there any longer. It makes me think that perhaps we have been given a hint: Harry's intellect is "worthless" against Voldemort. Or Voldemort is dismissive because he is too arrogant to see the capabilities there. Sue From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 06:15:51 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 06:15:51 -0000 Subject: Zabini and Nott/was The Good, The Bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91603 Koinoinia wrote: But are the weedy-Nott and the stringy-Slytherin one and the same? Not necessarily. > ~There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see them: a stringy Slytherin boy... Here are two teenagers described as 'stringy'. Both in Slytherin. One is in the same year as Harry. The other, of course, is Snape in his youth. Twice JKR has used the word 'stringy' to describe a teenage boy in one book. Yet we don't know for sure who the stingy-thestral kid is. I guess I do find Blaise Zabini more interesting for a couple of reasons, one being the way he was sorted. SORTING The following are in the same year as Harry: Millicent Bulstrode, Vincent Crabbe, Gregory Goyle, Draco Malfoy, Theodore Nott, Pansy Parkinson, and Blaise Zabini. ~ And now there were only three people left to be sorted. "Well done, Ron, excellent," said Percy Weasley pompously across Harry as "Zabini, Blaise," was made a Slytherin. See, no big event for Blasie. Only for the famous Harry Potter. All eyes are on Harry and during this time JKR slips in Blaise. And why should we bother to think twice about Blaise? He's just another kid being sorted. But this kid is at least named. We know he is there. And JKR doesn't just throw in names for nothing. So while the reader's attention is on the famous Potter, Blaise just takes his > seat with the Slytherins. > > I just think there's more to Blaise than we know and I do believe > it's possible he is the stringy-Slytherin. Carol: I agree that JKR doesn't throw in names for nothing. I also admit the possibility that Blaise is the "stringy" Slytherin who sees Thestrals. OTOH, "weedy" suggests much the same thing as "stringy" and is definitely applied to Theo, so the Thestral boy at least equally likely to be him. Theo is also named in the sorting ceremony, though not being at the end of the alphabet (and not having a fancy name), he doesn't stand out like Blaise. He's thrown in with a cluster of other students, several of whom we've already met: Moon (who's Moon?), Nott, Parkinson, Patil and Patil, and Perks, Sally-Anne (SS 121, Scholastic ed.). Sally-Anne Perks, like Blaise Zabini, has her full name listed, but we haven't heard a peep from either her or Blaise since the Sorting ceremony. Theo, on the other hand, is specifically pointed out by Hermione in OoP--and his father (or grandfather) is one of the Death Eaters arrested with Malfoy at the MoM. So whether or Nott Theo is "the good Slytherin" or the boy who saw Thestrals (and I think he's the latter, at least), I'll bet every knut I earn this year that he'll be in the next book, quite possibly as a member of the DA. (Since I'm not paid in knuts, that's a safe bet, right?) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 06:22:58 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 06:22:58 -0000 Subject: Zabini and Nott/was The Good, The Bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91604 I forgot to respond to one point in Koinona's post. She quoted OoP: "There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see them: a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face, and Neville, whose eyes were following the swishing progress of the long black tail." and commented: We are introduced to this kid, given a short physical description, and he's named right alongside Harry and Neville. But we aren't told his name. Why? If Theodore Nott is the same boy who can see the thestrals, why not just say so? Theodore Nott has also been seen with Malfoy and his gang in the library. Now my response: The Slytherin boy isn't named in the Thestrals scene because Harry doesn't know who he is yet. That scene occurs on page 445; the library scene occurs on p. 583. So it's quite possible, and IMO highly probable, that they're the same boy. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 06:34:12 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 06:34:12 -0000 Subject: The Issue of Death In Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iam2cute4u2have2001" wrote: > Alright, first and firemost this is my first post here. Hi i'm > Alisha! I'm not technically a grown up, but I actually possess brain > cells, so feel free and imagine that I'm a 'grown up' because I have > the mind of a forty year old. > > Now that that's done, don't shoot me if someone has asked this > already. I know this may found very morbid, but I've always wondered > about the concept of Death in Harry Potter. I'm just really curious > about how witches and wizards deal with the subject of death, and do > they have funerals for their dead? I've been trying to look this up > on discussion boards and in the books themselves, and so far I've > only found little clues. > > One clue I found was towardes the end of Goblet of Fire, when Harry > saw the 'echo' of Diggory telling him to take him to his parents. > Obviously, the Diggory's must have recieved their sons body and done > something with it. > > I don't think they BURY their dead like we do, because no one in the > books has ever mentioned to Harry a gravesite where his parents' > bodies could be. So obviously, if they don't bury the departed, they > don't have funerals. But then, what do they do? > Carol: We do know of two instances that may be of some help to you. The Dementors bury the polyjuiced body of Mrs. Crouch, thinking it's Barty Jr.'s. Shortly afterwards, Crouch fakes his wife's death, but, in Crouch!Moody's words, "That grave is empty." So they do, at least under some circumstances, bury their dead. My guess is that Cedric's shadow (the silver shape of Cedric that came out of Voldemort's wand) wanted his parents to bury him, and that they did so. Whether wizards have funeral or memorial services (beyond the burial itself or raising their goblets in honor of Cedric at the end-of-term feast), I don't know, but given what some of the characters, notably Lupin, have said about souls, I imagine they do. Carol, who can't believe how many typos she's edited out of this post and hopes she caught them all From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 07:02:17 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:02:17 -0000 Subject: Crouch's motivation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91606 greatlit2003: Why did Crouch teach Harry to fight off the Imperius curse? He actually helped Harry stand up to Voldemort. Antosha: It seems to me you could argue this a couple of ways. First of all, he could simply be 'getting in to character'--the MoM OK'd Moody's use of Unforgivable Curses, so Crouch! Moody feels he needs to follow through and actually teach them. Carol: Or Crouch is so cold and sadistic that he enjoys torturing the spiders and Imperioing the students, and is using his Moody persona as an excuse to use the Unforgiveable curses. He also turns Draco into a ferret, something I doubt that the real Moody would do, however grim and stern he may be. He was known for *not* using the Unforgiveable curses if he could avoid it. he alway tried to bring them in alive. In fact, we don't even know that he actually used them. He may have killed Evan Rosier in some other way. (Legal or not, they're still Unforgiveable--that is to say, Evil.) Antosha: Another way of looking at it is that Crouch may not anticipate that Harry will actually be able to throw off the curse--how much easier would everything have been if Harry had simply spent the entire 4th year under Crouch's direct control? Carol: Oddly--and this may seem to contradict what I just said about his cold and evil nature--I think that a part of Crouch likes or at least respects Harry and he wants him to be a worthy opponent for LV, one he can be proud of turning over to his Master. He also, of course, wants him to win the first two rounds of the tournament so he'll be sure to win the third and grab the cup. Maybe he want to make sure that if Karkaroff or someone else tries to Imperio Harry, Harry will be able to shake it off. And he probably wants Harry to like and respect him, so that he'll follow his suggestions without any suspicion of his real intentions--and he succeeds admirably. So kind and thoughtful of him to give that book to Neville after emotionally torturing him by Crucioing the spider. "Moody" is the one person Harry never suspects of putting his name in the goblet or wanting him dead. > Antosha: Finally--and I think this is the one that fits the book and characters best--Crouch is DEEPLY (if not insanely) resentful of his father's abuse of the Imperius curse and extremely proud of his own ability to shake that curse off. Remember--it took him a decade to learn how to do it. He's got to have a (possibly irrational) desire to share what he's learned. Carol: Interesting insight. I think you may be right. He also wants to share his knowledge of the other two Unforgiveables in front of the students. Obviously he couldn't Crucio or AK a student without getting himself sent to Azkaban, but he certainly took advantage of the opportunity to show how expertly he could cast them. (BTW, I'm not convinced that he really had Dumbledore's okay to cast those curses even though the nonomniscient Dumbledore thought he was the real Moody and trusted him not to abuse his power. I don't think the real Moody would have cast them or requested to cast them and I think Dumbledore would have been very suspicious of Crouch!Moody if he had done so.) But, yes, obsessed with hatred for his father and resentment of being under his control. Pride in his own Dark accomplishments and loyal to his Dark master. A madman and a genius operating on his own logic and his own agenda. Carol, who asked before and still wonders what Crouch!Moody did in his classes the rest of the year From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Feb 25 07:42:53 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:42:53 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Carol: > Dr. Julie (I think!) asked: > Do any teachers (not DD) at Hogwarts refer to students by their > first names or are the always "Mr. Potter" "Mr. Weasley", etc.? > > I remember one instance when Snape addressed Draco Malfoy as Draco, > which surprised me at the time, considering that he usually uses last > names without even a "Mr." I think it was in PoA but I'm not sure. Geoff: Gilderoy Lockhart certainly uses Harry's first name in COS and Lupin uses the first names of many students in the "Boggart in the Wardrobe" chapter in POA which I have just quickly checked. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Feb 25 08:48:07 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:48:07 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91608 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Is anyone else as irritated as me that Harry and Hermione didn't just > floo out of Umbridge's office straight to Grimmauld Place, instead of > wasting all that time being caught and riding thestrals to disaster > in the MoM ? > > A small but important point: Did hhe have any Floo powder? Kneasy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 08:49:18 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:49:18 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > bboy_mn wrote: > > > > Maybe THE Good Slytherin is being taken a little too literally. > > > > Here is my idea of how the houses will unite and how we will find > > the Good Slytherin. > Potioncat: > > I hope it isn't bad form to ask a question like this, Where did the > idea of a "good Slytherin" come from? I know this line of posts > evolved from one about things we'd like to see or hate to see in the > next books. But aside from our own interests in seeing good > Slytherin(s) is there any canon or interiviews to suggest it? > > Potioncat (who hopes so!) bboy_mn: Here are some references to previous discussions about 'The Good Slytherin'. Essentially, many of us can't believe that all Slytherins are bad. Certainly JKR has lead us through a story that tries to give that impression, but how many Slytherins do we actually know? We know only a very small number of them, the ones that we do know are the ones that show up very brightly on Harry's radar screen because he has some negative interaction with them. But let's face it, there is a Slytherin in his Care of Magical Creatures class that Harry has been in school with for five years, and Harry doesn't know his name; he's the boy who saw the Thestral. If Harry was having some kind of interaction with this guy, especially some kind of negative interaction, Harry would definitely know who he was. However, if this Slytherin was minding his own business and keeping his head down, then it quite possible Harry would not know him. Harry is not a real out-going socialble guy; he keeps to himself and his closest friends, and rarely strays beyond. Plus, we have this new concept introduced by the Sorting Hat of the houses standing united, that can only happen if we find a few good Slytherins. I have to believe that not all Slytherins are like Draco. I have to believe, and I believe reasonably so, that many of them are just plain ordinary kids going to school and trying their best, who just happened to have been sorted into Slytherin. Extending that a bit farther, and some of use believe within the context of uniting the houses, we won't just see a few OK Slytherins, but we will met a few outstanding Slytherins. These one or more outstanding Slytherin, we refer to as 'The Good Slytherin'. For details, see my published works- Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:43 am Subject: Re: The Good Slytherin - Stringy & Weedy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/84984 Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:58 pm Subject: Re: The Good Slytherin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/84978 Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:22 am Subject: What the Sorting Hat REALLY Said, and The Good Slytherin. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/84899 Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:06 pm Subject: Re: First meetings; - Good Slytherin in DA Club http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71474 Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:27 pm Subject: Thestrals and Slytherins http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71039 Most, of these are my posts, but the will take you into the middle of long discussions of the subject; just move up and down the thread to read what other people said. Here is one last link just for fun. It's off this topic, but it makes me laugh everytime I think about it. Date: Fri Jul 11, 2003 6:48 pm Subject: Brit-Speak: Drop-Kicking the Students http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/69555 Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Feb 25 09:51:33 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:51:33 -0000 Subject: Knowing Kneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91610 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > Heading north from Kings Cross, there is Gasworks Tunnel which starts > virtually off the platform end and then very shortly Belle Isle > tunnel (BTW/OT these tunnels featured in the well-known film "The > Ladykillers"), two tunnels at Hadley Wood, one at Potters Bar and two > at Welwyn - these bring you to about 20 miles north of Kings Cross. > Stoke Tunnel, just south of Grantham about 100 miles north of Kings > Cross, is the summit of the line in England and a slightly longer > one. There used to be one at Penmanshiel, just over the Scottish > border north of Berwick but that sadly collapsed in the 1980s killing > some workmen and a new bypass line was built and then there is a > tunnel on the approach to Edinburgh Waverley. I think that's the lot > as far as Edinburgh. > Kneasy: Doesn't seem to be encouraging on the tunnel front. Have to consider other alternative sites suitable for dastardly deeds of the locomotive variety. It's a pity the rail line doesn't cross the Wash - then we could have the Hogwarts Express doing a repeat version of King John's crown jewels. They could always organise a Niffler rescue squad. > Kneasy: > Mind you, it may be film contamination (spit) but there was > > a sequence in the CoS film on a dodgy-looking viaduct. Hmm. > > Geoff: > You just watch what you're saying about that dodgy viaduct. :-) > > It is a worthy edifice to carry the Hogwarts Express and all the > great and good(?) who travel on it. It is Glenfinnan Viaduct on the > Fort William-Mallaig line. This was the first major railway structure > built in reinforced concrete and was built by "Concrete Bob", the > nickname of Sir Robert McAlpine who founded the famous UK building > firm. Kneasy: Bridges and viaducts do offer some hope and history points the way. Presumably the Hogwarts Express goes north from Edinburgh - across the Tay Bridge. That's been swept away before, and with a train on it. I get a warm glow thinking about Luna being swept out into the North Sea; if she stays afloat long enough she can check up on the Snorkacks in Norway. Maybe her cork necklace is destined to be useful. Glefinnan Viaduct indeed. Pah! A mere bagatelle! Come to my patch and see what Thomas Telford threw across the Ceirog Valley. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Feb 25 10:11:42 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:11:42 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco's wand Message-ID: <1c0.15871d91.2d6dcede@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91611 In a message dated 2/25/2004 3:19:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: the solution I've come up with is that Draco is very like his mother, and she would be able to narrow down the selection of a wand to three or four that would work for him based on what she told Mr. Ollivander about him and how they performed for her. ============ Sherrie here: We assume from Draco's words that she's looking at wands for him - but do we necessarily KNOW that? Draco's mighty self-centered - maybe SHE needed a new wand... Just a weird thought. Sherrie (who REALLY should be researching civilians at Gettysburg...) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Feb 25 10:40:40 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:40:40 -0000 Subject: Knowing Kneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: Kneasy: > Bridges and viaducts do offer some hope and history points the way. > Presumably the Hogwarts Express goes north from Edinburgh - across > the Tay Bridge. That's been swept away before, and with a train on it. > I get a warm glow thinking about Luna being swept out into the North > Sea; if she stays afloat long enough she can check up on the Snorkacks > in Norway. Maybe her cork necklace is destined to be useful. > Geoff: Yes indeed. It was Thomas Bouch's bridge in 1879. The interesting HP link here is, as I have pointed out in at least two posts in the distant past, is that the event was commemorated in the most appalling verse by the Great McGonagall..... Kneasy: > Glefinnan Viaduct indeed. Pah! A mere bagatelle! > Come to my patch and see what Thomas Telford threw across the Ceirog > Valley. Yes. Telford (and Brunel and Stephenson) threw a number of bridges around. I hope their aim was good. :-) From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Wed Feb 25 11:27:49 2004 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:27:49 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91613 > Dr. Julie (I think!) asked: > Do any teachers (not DD) at Hogwarts refer to students by their > first names or are the always "Mr. Potter" "Mr. Weasley", etc.? > Carol: > I remember one instance when Snape addressed Draco Malfoy as Draco, > which surprised me at the time, considering that he usually uses last > names without even a "Mr." I think it was in PoA but I'm not sure. (snip) I'm pretty sure it was OotP, although it could have occured in a previous book as well. But on to what I was really going to say; I was rereading PoA a while back with an old discussion of teachers/students/firstnames fresh in my mind, and I found that Snape actually calls Neville by first name once in Potions class. (PoA, ch.7) In context, it doesn't seem very significant (he says "Longbottom" just before), but it still sounds a little strange considering I don't think I've ever heard him use a student's first name before. (Besides the one (?) "Draco", of course.) Also, although I think this was brought up before, Lupin addresses all students by first name. (Or at least he does during the boggart lesson, and I'm afraid that's as far as I'm willing to research at the moment. ;)) Eva, who's been sort of waiting for the subject to reappear ;) From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 03:02:18 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 03:02:18 -0000 Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91614 > Potioncat wrote: > But aside from our own interests in seeing good > Slytherin(s) is there any canon or interiviews to suggest it? > Antosha: Well, the first thing that comes to mind is the Sorting Hat's song in OotP, in which it calls for ALL of the houses to unite, or Hogwarts will fall (or something like that). Kind of like Ben Franklin's wisecrack: "Gentlemen, we must all hang together, else we shall certainly be hanged separately!" From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 03:30:34 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 03:30:34 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91615 >>drjuliehoward wrote: > > > > Do any teachers (not DD) at Hogwarts refer to students by their > > first names or are the always "Mr. Potter" "Mr. Weasley", etc.? > > McGonagall refers to James and Lily after they are killed. > > Potioncat Lockhart calls Harry by his first name ("Harry! Harry, Harry.") from the time he first meets him at Flourish and Blott's And McGonagall calls Harry's parents by their first names after they have just been killed, not as students at Hogwarts, but as her fellow members of the Order of the Phoenix (1st Edition). So it would be understandable that she would speak of them more familiarly, no? Antosha, who could never think of Prof. McGonagall as 'Minerva.' From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 03:35:45 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 03:35:45 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91616 Pippin wrote: So IMO, an Order member fired the curse that pushed Sirius through the veil. That's why he looked surprised...just like Cedric, and probably for the same reason--he recognized the killer and it was someone he thought was a friend. Eustace_Scrubb queried: Well, I understand your position, though I'm more apt to use Occam's Razor and say it was Bellatrix with AK in the Department of Mysteries. But my question relates to the above--are you suggesting that Cedric recognized Pettigrew and thought he was a friend? Eustace_Scrubb From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 04:26:13 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:26:13 -0000 Subject: Occlumency lessons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91617 Deb wrote: > Does anyone else feel that Snape (sir!) didn't try particularly hard > to teach occlumency to Harry--even before the Pensieve? He never > explained how or WHAT Harry should do, other than "clear your mind of > all emotions" before diving in and attacking him. > > But what I REALLY wonder at is that Hermione--the bookworm, > researcher extraordinaire that she is--didn't immediately start > digging out references to force on Harry when he started the lessons > in the first place. Or at least when he was making no progress with > Snape (sir!)--it's not like she doesn't know how Snape treats Harry > anyway, I'm sure she could well imagine that the lessons weren't > exactly smooth and easy like his Patronus lessons with Lupin had > been. If she can pick up all these other skills (like the hex she put > on the DA signup sheet, or on the gold galleons to announce each > meeting) from books, why not occlumency so that she could help Harry?? > Well, I can say from personal experience that some of the best practitioners of an art can be the worst teachers--they think what they're talking about is simple. So perhaps, for Snape, there really isn't anything more than "emptying your mind of emotion"--emotion being one of the things (as it's been pointed out here recently) that Harry has in spades. As for why Hermione couldn't just find a copy of Occlumency for Dummies, perhaps (being a fairly dangerous subject) it's only covered in books in the famous Restricted section-- and since Hermione gets her head bitten off every time she brings the subject up (which is, to be fair, quite frequently), she may decide it's not worth trying to get past Madam Pince's wards... About the galleons--I'd totally forgotten about them! Now I'm going to be waiting for one of them to show up in the next book! Since many have decided that the DA will thrive in the coming year, perhaps they become badges of honor for "charter members." Antosha, who wishes Hermione would help him with HIS homework.... From CindyJ2 at cox.net Wed Feb 25 06:29:49 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:29:49 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters References: Message-ID: <008401c3fb68$c5334cf0$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91618 ----- Original Message ----- From: potioncat What surprises me is that Fudge refers to "James and Lily" several times as if he had been on a first name basis with them. Oddly enough, Professors McGonagall and Flitwick refer to James and Sirius always as Potter and Black. Me here-- It seems to me that Fudge, as well as McGonagall in SS, refers to "James and Lily" because they are refering to them as grown-ups. When McGonagall and Flitwick are talking about them as kids, they use their last names, as is their style with the students. Even with the current students, Hagrid and Lupin the only two professors I can recall calling Harry by his first name. It's either Potter, or Mr. Potter. Once the kids grow up, though, it wouldn't be unheard of to start using first names, especially if the student became the teacher's collegue. I'm in the US, so I don't know if that makes a difference. I know that after I graduated, though, it was entirely proper to call my former teachers--who were Mr., Mrs., or Dr.--by their first names, and they by mine. Cindy From CindyJ2 at cox.net Wed Feb 25 06:41:36 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:41:36 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) References: Message-ID: <008801c3fb6a$6a87dda0$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91619 Kneasy wrote: Gred and Forge tell Harry that Bagman made a run for it "right after the third task.' It'd be interesting to know if that was after Harry vanished but before Harry returned. If it was then maybe he was smart enough to see that he had been set up. This is becoming satisfactorily devious. Me here-- I've often wondered if Bagman was the person who was "too afraid to return" or even if he was one of the unnamed people under a mask at the graveyard. Rita Skeeter says she knows things about him that would make your hair curl, or something to that effect. It's easy to assume that his downfall is his gambling, but who better to protect him than LV? He was/is popular and likeable, so it seems as though people are willing to give him more leeway than the ordinary Joe. For example, at the World Cup he dressed overtly wizard-ly, and talked loudly about Quiddich. Even Arthur Weasley chalked it up to him being "lax" about security. And during his trial, he didn't get any real punishment, even though he *did* pass information to LV, even if it was inadvertant. Seems to me this would have at least hurt his empolyment chances at the MOM later... But no, he gets not only a job, he's made the head of a department. Finally, his connection to Rookwood is suspect. He's an old friend of his dad's--was his dad a DE? Don't get me wrong; Bagman doesn't strike me as evil. But often the dolts--the people who can't or won't think for themseves--do more to promote evil causes than we give them credit for. History is ripe with people who were "just following orders" who committed henious crimes. And he does strike me as being a bit of a dolt. Just some musings... Cindy From CindyJ2 at cox.net Wed Feb 25 06:57:09 2004 From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:57:09 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Faking Sirius' Death? References: Message-ID: <009d01c3fb6c$96c10de0$536a6744@DEAN> No: HPFGUIDX 91620 Eustace_Scrubb wrote: 3) Sirius did not speak after the curse hit him, he fell straight back, which happened to mean that he fell through the veil. Me here-- See, this is why I think the veil killed him, and not the curse. We know that curses can stun someone, even knock them off their feet. But going through the veil is permanent. What if Sirius had fallen elsewhere? I suspect he would have probably lived, kind of like McGonagall in OOTP. I know there's no canon to support this, but the veil seems like a method of execution, or maybe even euthanasia. The room has 360 degree stadium seating, with the veil being right in the middle. It's like there's supposed to be witnesses when someone "crosses through". When I first read OOTP, I just visualized it that way; it seemed to make the most sense. So please understand this is just my speculation... Cindy From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Wed Feb 25 11:26:21 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:26:21 -0000 Subject: Occlumency lessons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91621 deb wrote: > But what I REALLY wonder at is that Hermione--the bookworm, > researcher extraordinaire that she is--didn't immediately start > digging out references to force on Harry when he started the lessons > in the first place. Or at least when he was making no progress with > Snape (sir!)--it's not like she doesn't know how Snape treats Harry > anyway, I'm sure she could well imagine that the lessons weren't > exactly smooth and easy like his Patronus lessons with Lupin had > been. If she can pick up all these other skills (like the hex she put > on the DA signup sheet, or on the gold galleons to announce each > meeting) from books, why not occlumency so that she could help Harry?? Aditya: The reason seems to be that each one of them has a special ability of his own. Harry is good at DADA. And Hermione is good at charms. Even if she could she wouldn't be able to learn occlumency in short time when Harry himself found it difficult. {Curiously enough, she seems to be focusing on jinxes in OOTP, which shows that she wants to fight it out. Jinxes are the most offensive work in charms. SHows that she is schooling herself in facing dangers.) And she got Harry to teach her DADA anyway which again means Harry is way ahead of Hermione in DADA. So Hermione can't teach him even if she had wanted it. And speaking of occlumency. It's not this incantation kind of thing. It seems to be a purely mental ability to focus or focus out something. As Snape said it is similar to learning to ward off Imperius curse. There also, Harry didn't have to do much except some mental kind of feat. So Harry could have learnt occlumency fastly enough if he had tried it a bit more sincerely and not get swayed in the grip of so many emotions as he was throughout the book. Harry seems to have a difficulty learning these kind of mind related things when he becomes emotional. He had difficulties with learning Patronus charm too. I think he could learn thwarting Imperius curse so easily because he wasn't emotionally involved in that lesson. As for Snape's instructions, I am sure he couldn't have done anything more than what he did in the first lesson. The rest were just practice sessions. You can compare this with Lupin's lessons. After the first lesson, in which Lupin explains what Patronus charm is, he had nothing much to do but stand back and see Harry fight it out. Same as Snape. Bye Aditya From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 13:08:01 2004 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:08:01 -0000 Subject: The scar connection: is JKR cheating? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91622 "nkafkafi" wrote: The interesting "second Voldemort war" thread from a few days ago made me do some research into the mind connection between Harry and LV, and I discovered a strange inconsistency in its description. In OotP both Snape and DD tell us that the scar marks a connection between the minds of Harry and LV. A logical implication of this connection is that, when Harry receives perceptions from LV's mind, he should see them from LV's point of view. And indeed, this is how Harry's "visions" are described. Whenever the point of view is given, it is always through LV's eyes. The one exception is the snake's attack on Arthur Weasley, which Harry sees through the snake's eyes, but this is logically explained by Snape in that LV was inhabiting the snake at that time. If, however, you go back to GoF with this new knowledge about the mind connection, you'll find that Harry's visions from LV's mind are *not* through LV's eyes. There are two such visions in GoF: The dream in the beginning of GoF: this is the first time Harry receives more than just pain through the scar connection. It seems that Harry's point of view is located behind LV's chair. Harry can't remember what LV looked like: "All Harry knew was that at the moment when Voldemort's chair had swung around, and he, Harry, had seen what was sitting in it, he had felt a spasm of horror, which had awoken him or had that been the pain in his scar?" But Harry doesn't see the scene from Frank Brice's point of view either: "there had definitely been an old man; Harry had watched him fall to the ground" and in the previous chapter we are specifically told Frank was dead before he hit the ground. Harry doesn't see it from Nagini's point of view either: "There had been a snake on a hearth rug". The dream during the divination lesson: Harry dreams that he is riding to LV's hideout on the back of an eagle owl. This awl, in fact, seems to be the real owl that imposter!Moody sent LV to notify him about killing Crouch Sr., since LV mentions this in his words to Wormtail. Again, Harry sees things from a point of view located behind LV's chair, so he does not see LV, only the tip of his wand, and Wormtail and Nagini in front of the chair. This inconsistency between GoF and OotP bothers me because it seems like JKR was cheating us in GoF, so we would not realise too early about the scar connection. She made it look like the visions were due to some vogue prophetic abilities of Harry. After all, we all know that "he saw it in a dream" is a standard plot device authors use to give the hero some knowledge he couldn't have in any realistic way, so we haven't had any reason to think about mechanistic explanations, such as a mind connection. Until now I was under the impression that JKR might hide things from us, or through red herrings to confuse us, but she is always consistent. Except for flints, of course, but until now we only had flints in issues that are not central to the plot, such as the number of students. So I'll be very grateful if somebody can find a logical explanation to this inconsistency in Harry's point of view. Neri ===================================================================== Fred here; In GoF, I took it as because LV still did not have a compleat body until Wormtail preformed the spell, he, LV was not whole, or compleatly in the crude body he was inhabiting. Let me try to explain. When Wormtail went back to LV, he was able to make/get a crude form of a body/shell for LV to inhabit. But even though he, LV, was inside this body, I don't think it held his entire essence, so to speak. So, this is why Harry see's things from a third party prespective. Or at least not from inside LV. LV had been, for lack of a better word, concentrated, but he was still not whole. In other words, Harry could feel emotions better and he started receiving "visions" from LV because LV HAD been concentrated. I hope this helps; Fred From CoyotesChild at charter.net Wed Feb 25 13:16:59 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:16:59 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c3fba1$a9da7a80$18667144@Einstein> No: HPFGUIDX 91623 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" > wrote: > > Is anyone else as irritated as me that Harry and Hermione didn't just > > floo out of Umbridge's office straight to Grimmauld Place, instead of > > wasting all that time being caught and riding thestrals to disaster > > in the MoM ? > > > > > > A small but important point: > Did hhe have any Floo powder? > > Kneasy > > Iggy here: Another point - JKR specifically noted that the fired were out in the Floo fireplace entrances in the main hall of the Ministry itself. IIRC, there has to be an active fire open on both ends of the "channel" for the Floo network to operate in the first place. Extinguishing the fires a couple of hours after the end of the work day would be a standard cautionary measure to keep people from entering the Ministry unauthorized. And yes, I know that security would probably have been a lot tighter. IMHO, Malfoy probably bribed people and used his influence to make sure that the security was lax that night because he NEEDED Harry to get into the Ministry. One last, and most important point - The rest of the gang found Harry and Hermione in the woods, covered in blood... and the Thestrals were already close by. In face, they walked up as Harry was trying to figure out what to do. Riding the Thestrals was faster and a more available transportation than using the Floo network... if it would have worked in the first place. (They would have all had to trek back up to the castle, locate some Floo Powder, and a private fireplace to use... all while not attracting any attention. That last one is difficult enough when two of the people involved are NOT covered in blood.) Just my two centaur's worth... Iggy McSnurd From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Feb 25 14:19:28 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:19:28 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: I was rereading PoA a while back with an old > discussion of teachers/students/firstnames fresh in my mind, and I found that Snape > actually calls Neville by first name once in Potions class. (PoA, ch.7) In context, it doesn't > seem very significant (he says "Longbottom" just before), but it still sounds a little strange I can't find that in my Scholastic paperback edition. I have Snape using Longbottom and the "narrator" using Neville. Potioncat From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 14:27:09 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:27:09 -0000 Subject: Zabini and Nott In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91625 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > OTOH, "weedy" suggests much the same thing as "stringy" and > is definitely applied to Theo, so the Thestral boy at least equally > likely to be him. "K" Absolutely. I do believe it's very possible Nott is the boy who saw the thestrals. Weedy and stringy are pretty much the same in my book. Carol: >Theo is also named in the sorting ceremony, though > not being at the end of the alphabet (and not having a fancy name), >he doesn't stand out like Blaise. He's thrown in with a cluster of >other students, several of whom we've already met: Moon (who's >Moon?), Nott, Parkinson, Patil and Patil, and Perks, Sally-Anne (SS >121, Scholastic ed.). Sally-Anne Perks, like Blaise Zabini, has her >full name listed, but we haven't heard a peep from either her or >Blaise since the Sorting ceremony. Theo, on the other hand, is >specifically pointed out by Hermione in OoP--and his father (or >grandfather) is one of the Death Eaters arrested with Malfoy at the >MoM. So whether or Nott Theo is "the good Slytherin" or the boy who >saw Thestrals (and I think he's the latter, at least), I'll bet >every knut I earn this year that he'll > be in the next book, quite possibly as a member of the DA. (Since >I'm not paid in knuts, that's a safe bet, right?) "K" Theodore Nott is indeed mentioned in the books but then he is seen in the company of Draco and we know his father and possibly his grandfather are DE's. He does seem more connected with the DE side of Slytherin. However, it is possible he is the thestral-boy and those DE activities don't excite him very much. JKR does have a way of mentioning a name and bringing it up later. I think she'll do that with Blaise. I would like to think there are many kids in Slytherin who are good. Having said that, I don't want to find out Sirius or James was a Slytherin. That crowd can stay in Gryffindor. I want to see some Slytherin comtemporaries of Snape who have been fighting evil. I'm hoping Draco can pull away from the influence of his father. Maybe I'm asking for too much. Carol - Message 91604 >The Slytherin boy isn't named in the Thestrals scene because Harry >doesn't know who he is yet. That scene occurs on page 445; the >library scene occurs on p. 583. So it's quite possible, and IMO >highly probable, that they're the same boy. "K" I believe this is the only thing I disagree on. I think the author made a point of not giving us his name for a reason and I don't believe it's because Harry doesn't know him yet. It's the way Hagrid is interrupted. JKR doesn't want us to know who he is. Even though Harry might not have known Nott's name at the time, it wouldn't have mattered if Hagrid would have said 'Nott'. Personally, I don't worry about flints and I don't stand around picking out those things which just don't seem to fit. I find it takes away from the joy of the books. However, it is a bit irritating that Harry wouldn't know who Theodore Nott was after all those years of having classes together. Still, I won't dwell on that part. Well, the stringy-thestral-boy bears a resemblance to Snape and I think there's a reason for that. I just want to know who it is. "K" ~who sees clues in just about everything~ From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Feb 25 14:52:35 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:52:35 -0000 Subject: Zabini and Nott In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91627 "K" writes: >Snip< > Well, the stringy-thestral-boy bears a resemblance to > Snape and I think there's a reason for that. I just want to know who > it is. I jumped to the happy conclusion that Snape has a son and I can't wait to meet Mrs. Snape. Perhaps Hagrid was going to call the boy Mr. Snape. But then I thouht, not even Harry could have had classes with a young Mr. Snape and not noticed. This kid could be related in some other way, but also, whatever his name is, the readers will have an "Ah Ha" moment. (Evans, perhaps?) In this world, physical discriptions have meanings other than family connections. Long noses, long fingers, long wands equal strong magic. Short stubby fingers mean the witch has very little magic. So it could also be that stringy youths have some sort of magic conection? I'm not sure what that would be. Now if we can work out the magic conection for Mundungus and Crookshanks! Potioncat From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Feb 25 15:10:38 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:10:38 -0000 Subject: The scar connection: is JKR cheating? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91628 nkafkafi wrote: > > The interesting "second Voldemort war" thread from a few days ago > > made me do some research into the mind connection between Harry and > > LV, and I discovered a strange inconsistency in its description. > > > > In OotP both Snape and DD tell us that the scar marks a connection > > between the minds of Harry and LV. A logical implication of this > > connection is that, when Harry receives perceptions from LV's mind, > > he should see them from LV's point of view. And indeed, this is how > > Harry's "visions" are described. Annemehr: > I think what JKR is writing here is a progression: the scar connection > has been increasing in strength and effect. As you say, in the early > books all Harry ever perceives is pain from it. > > In GoF the visions begin. They are from a point of view external to > Voldemort. Harry is seeing events, hearing conversations as an > outside observer. Perhaps this is one reason Voldemort remains > unaware of it so far. > > In OoP we see the connection strengthening by leaps and bounds. When > Harry feels a sharp pain in his scar (more than just the prickling), > he begins to find he can connect an emotion that Voldemort is feeling > to the event. For the first time, Harry is getting *inside* > Voldemort's head. Jen: Yes, what Annemehr said! But also that LV is actually back to 'full power and strength' meaning the connection will intensify naturally. But then I started thinking, what changed between GOF and OOTP? Like nkafkafi said, we didn't have an inkling the curse scar was more than a warning sign for LV returning to power before OOTP. At the end of GOF, Dumbledore is still describing the curse scar as an 'alarm bell', hurting when LV is "close by or feeling particularly muderous." (US, chap. 36, p. 706) In beginning of OOTP, Harry still considers this to be the function of his scar hurting: "...In the past his scar hurting had warned that Voldemort was getting stronger again, but now that Voldemort was back they would probably remind him that its regular irritation was only to be expected." (chap. 1, p. 10) We're not given information about why Dumbledore decided that the scar actually joins Harry and LV, that there was more than an 'alarm bell' function going on. I'm wondering now if the 'blood of my enemy' is what's actually causing the fusing of LV and Harry, not the curse scar? Or intensifying it perhaps? Perhpas that was the key that made DD realize there was more connection than he initially thought, leading to his avoidance of Harry very early in OOTP, before we get the official explanation. From kking0731 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 02:20:18 2004 From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:20:18 -0500 Subject: Order Headquarters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91629 Hitomi wrote: > I agree with everything Louise had to say, but also we don't know > that most dark wizards knew where the Black's house was. It could > even have been moved around, and according to Book 5, Hermione I > think, the place was covered in protections, even before the Order > began to use it. Also, Kreacher is not allowed to give information > the Order/Sirius forbid him to give, according to DD, and I'm sure > one of the things they told him never to tell anyone is where the > Order is located. Kreacher could tell the Malfoys information in a > roundabout way, but never something so direct, and of course, there > is the Fidelius Charm, as Louise has already described. Kathy's thoughts: The problem I see is "they" (like Narcissa) know that Kreacher lives in the Blacks' Manor. They have also been told (by Kreacher) that Black feels that Harry is now regarding himself as both father and brother. How would Kreacher have known this info. unless Black is residing with Kreacher. They also know that Black is part of the Order. Therefore, the Black Manor may be deduced as being the headquarters for the Order. Just a thought! Kathy From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 15:38:50 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:38:50 -0000 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > Kneasy: > Just to raise a point: > As organiser of the tasks it would be Bagman's job to carry the Cup into > the maze. But Crouch!Moody tells Harry that it was he who put the Portkey > spell on the Cup and presumably he was the last person to touch it before > Harry did. So why were no-one's suspicions aroused by Crouch!Moody > parading around with the Cup? > Very odd. Annemehr: Feeling the need to have things clear in my mind, I looked the details up. Crouch actually doesn't talk about the portkey until the end of his Veritaserum interrogation: "I offered to carry the Triwizard Cup into the maze before dinner," whispered Barty Crouch. "Turned it into a Portkey.[...]" (GoF, the end of ch. 35) I imagine the cup had to be carried into the maze and set in its place at the center *before* being turned into a Portkey because it was set so that the next person who touched it would activate it. But as this was done "before dinner," I don't believe there were many people around to witness Crouch!Moody doing it. Interesting that Barty Crouch does not say to *whom* he offered to place the Cup in the maze -- but most likely only Bagman was there as Crouch Sr. was already dead. Not much risk to Crouch Jr. that I can see -- certainly no more than for putting Harry's name into the Goblet. Kneasy: > > It could be that Crouch!Moody had inducted Bagman to act as an unwitting > fall guy. [...] Bagman as organiser would have fallen under suspicion. > But if Crouch!Moody hadn't told Bagman his plans, questioning, even with > Veratiserum, would not produce answers. > > So how does the idea that Bagman!Gofer, thinking that he's helping > Crouch!Moody fix the competition (and making a few Galleons on the side) > but being cast as 'Most Wanted" grab you? Gred and Forge tell Harry that > Bagman made a run for it "right after the third task.' It'd be interesting to > know if that was after Harry vanished but before Harry returned. If it was > then maybe he was smart enough to see that he had been set up. > This is becoming satisfactorily devious. Annemehr: Bagman as fall guy works for me, but it would probably be temporary. Bagman, if ever questioned, would reveal that it was Moody (as he thought) who carried the Cup into the maze. However, I don't believe Crouch was intended to try to remain at Hogwarts; the teaching job was only for the one year, after all. If all had gone as planned, I don't think suspicion would have fallen on Crouch until he had rejoined Voldemort. It is interesting to speculate on why Bagman made his sudden departure. The possibilities I can think up: 1. He was a DE, had no idea LV was back until his Mark burned, went to the graveyard. 2. When Harry disappeared, thought his bet was lost, fled from Goblins immediately. 3. He was a DE and in on the plans, went to the graveyard. 4. He got scared at the sight of Cedric's body, fled to escape responsibility for a champion's death. Maybe afraid he'd been set up, maybe just plain scared. 5. Gred and Forge thought Bagman ran for it right after the third task for fear of the goblins. For that to be true, it would have to have been after Harry returned, and Bagman would have to have thought he won and then had his conversation with the goblins who said Harry didn't win, he'd only tied. Was so afraid of goblins he ran. Actually, many of these can be true at the same time. Interesting we've never heard anything of Bagman in OoP except that the *Ministry* wouldn't honor his personal debts to the goblins. If the goblins are going after the Ministry for their money, doesn't that suggest that Bagman himself is now nowhere to be found? If he's still working at his job, they could take part of his wages, couldn't they? Would a large debt to the goblins make a wizard feel the need to disappear? If that's true, I don't know how one could include the goblins among the oppressed races of beings. If Bagman is a DE, would his fear of the goblins and his involvement in the disastrous Triwizard Tournament be enough to cause him to flee to Voldemort and stay there? 'Course, *Dumbledore* was involved in the TWT, it was all his idea as a matter of fact, and he isn't taking any flak about it at all, apparently. > > annemehr: > > I just wish we knew more about the use of portkeys at Hogwarts. > Kneasy: > True. > Both times that we know about DD set up a Portkey arrival /departure in > his study. (To get the crowd to Grimmauld Place when Arthur was > attacked and to get back after the MoM fight.) Annemehr: Yeah, and DD Flooed into his office to meet Harry there after the DoM battle and talking to Fudge (or giving Fudge a good talking to!). Kneasy: > Then there was the Cup. I have problems with the idea that DD knowingly > allowed someone to spell the Cup. What excuse could the person give? > Everything was set up for a grand celebration at Hogwarts when the winner > was declared. Why on Earth should DD agree with making the winner vanish > at the moment of victory? > This would mean that a Portkey can be set up without DD's knowledge or > approval. Annemehr: At a TWT in a nice, normal, non-Voldemort year, it would have made perfect sense. The winner wouldn't vanish, he or she would suddenly appear at the maze entrance holding the victory cup. Cue celebrations. *That* year, however, it seems very foolhardy. Perhaps Crouch/Moody, when informing DD of the plan to have the Cup portkey the winner to the entrance, made a show of concern for security and then assured DD that he himself would set the Cup/Portkey up to be sure it wasn't tampered with. And DD trusts him like James and Lily trusted Pettigrew, and removes the portkey prevention just for the Cup. Yes, I know. But it's still better than to think that Crouch could have portkeyed Harry out of Hogwarts at any time with any object and less chance of suspicion ever falling on himself. Annemehr whose thoughts on the subject are very amoeba-like, refusing to assume a shape and stay that way From kking0731 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 02:33:28 2004 From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:33:28 -0500 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91631 >Kneasy: >Everything was set up for a grand celebration at Hogwarts when the winner >was declared. Why on Earth should DD agree with making the winner vanish >at the moment of victory? >This would mean that a Portkey can be set up without DD's knowledge or >approval. Kathy's thoughts: What if DD agreed to transporting the winner to the outside of the maze? (which is where Harry and Cedric's body transported back to after the graveyard) Crouch Jr. just made a last minute detour. Just a thought! Kathy From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Feb 25 15:45:03 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:45:03 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: Is anyone else as irritated as me that Harry and Hermione didn't just floo out of Umbridge's office straight to Grimmauld Place, instead of wasting all that time being caught and riding thestrals to disaster in the MoM ? John the Walker wrote: It seems highly unlikely that, given the protections on 12 Grimmauld Place, that you would be able to Floo in, especially when not expected. I think that the fireplace can only be used as a communication tool, rather than a travelling one. I wouldn't be surprised if the Hogwarts fireplaces operated the same way. (snip) Kathryn Cawte wrote: Plus the Floo network is Ministry controlled isn't it? A few Floo calls they might be able to get away with but if people started travelling too and from the supposedly empty family residence of an escaped convit I think even the Ministry 'brains' might smell a rat. So even apart from the usual security reasons I assume Floo access to and from Grimmauld Place would have been made impossible by Dumbledore. Kneasy: A small but important point: Did hhe have any Floo powder? Carolyn again: Chapter 32 'Out of the fire': "Harry dashed over to the fireplace, seized the pot of Floo powder and threw a pinch in the grate, causing emerald flames to burst into life there. He knelt down quickly, thrust his head into the dancing fire and cried 'Number twelve, Grimmauld Place!' " So, yes, he had Floo powder, and it sounds the standard stuff, the description of its use is exactly as we have seen when he's used it both to travel with the Weasley's, and previously when he just stuck his head in the fire to contact Sirius and Lupin via Umbridge's fireplace. To answer John and Kathryn's points, yes, I am sure there are a lot of protections in place, and no one but a secret keeper could have used the Floo network to get from the office to Grimmauld place - Umbridge could not have done it, and because of the nature of the Fidelius charm, no one on the Floo network would be able to detect the Grimmauld place end of the connection. It is noticeable that when Umbridge detected Sirius using the Floo network, it was only at the Gryffindor tower end, she didn't know where he was speaking from, and couldn't trace the 'call'. And I wasn't suggesting that he should do it regularly. My point was that he was in a flat panic, ready to do anything to save Sirius and had been flapping hysterically about how to get to London for the past couple of hours. What could be more obvious than at least trying to step through the fire to the kitchen of Grimmauld place. Even if he didn't bother to yell up the stairs for Sirius when he got there, but rushed straight off to the tube station, from his POV it would surely have seemed the fastest way to get to the MoM ? Carolyn, still irritated. From kking0731 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 02:48:38 2004 From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:48:38 -0500 Subject: Draco's wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91633 This is a very crazy thought about Draco's wand but here goes. What if the Malfoys didn't want Draco "sized" up by Olivander. We have seen what a true coward he is when it comes to the forbidden forest. Maybe they didn't want the wand to pick him. Just a thought! Kathy From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Wed Feb 25 14:35:50 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (jozoed) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:35:50 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew and his hidden powers? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91634 I have just been re-reading POA and found myself dwelling on a certain point. (Usual apology from a newbie- hope this hasn't been discussed to death previously.) When the escape of Sirius is being discussed on the Knight Bus, and later amongst the students and staff at Hogwarts, everyone is completely awestruck (for lack of a better word) about how Sirius (supposedly) managed to kill 13 people with just one curse. Now we know that Sirius was not the one to use such a curse and that it was instead Peter who managed to perform the curse and dissapear leaving behind his finger all at the same time. This was a complicated piece of magic. Along with his bravery and committment to LV by cutting off his own hand, I would say that Peter Pettigrew is quite a powerful wizard. I don't believe that HRH and crew have quite realised just how powerful. They perhaps still see him as the tag along friend of James, Sirius, and Lupin... and now the snivveling follower of LV. "Yeah' said Stan, still rubbing his chest.' Yeah, that's right. Very close to You-Know-'Oo- Harry nervously flattened his fringe down again - 'all You'Know-Oo's supporters was tracked down, wasn't they, Ern'? Most of 'em knew it was over, wiv You-Know-'Oo gone, and they came quiet. But not Sirius Black. I 'eard he thought 'e'd be second in command once You-Know-'oo 'ad taken over." Replace Pettigrew for 'Sirius Black' and we should all be quite wary, and frightened of Wormtail! What is JKR hiding from us in regards to the little rat? From elihufalk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 05:44:47 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:44:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040225054447.82170.qmail@web21405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91635 Potioncat wrote: > What surprises me is that Fudge refers to "James and Lily" > several times as if he had been on a first name basis with > them. Oddly enough, Professors McGonagall and Flitwick refer > to James and Sirius always as Potter and Black. > > I'm not sure if this just made the storytelling easier or if > Fudge knew the Potters well. Or if he is just a name dropper. > Do we know how old he is? Elihu's answer: We know that Fudge was in the law enforcement at the time; he might have been on first name terms with all the members of the order at the time. About Flitwick and McGonagall, we know that all teachers, with the exceptions of Lockhart and Lupin, refer to Harry by last name; so even if MWPP were in Gryffindor (which I doubt), McGonagall probably would have refered to them by last name. Elihu From elihufalk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 05:36:23 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:36:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dealing w/ Kreacher In-Reply-To: <20040224175026.10834.qmail@web14104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040225053623.99051.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91636 Tyler wrote: > When Sirius handed over his parents' house to Dumbledore > why didn't he justput a memory charm on Kreacher and give > him clothes? Elihu answers: Maybe it's because Dumbledore is worried after the whole Bertha Jorkins incident. Barty Crouch Sr. put a memmory charm on her, yet Voldemort got the imformation which was being hidden anyway (about Barty Crouch's son). Elihu From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 16:00:45 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:00:45 -0000 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91637 Sorry, replying to myself to rectify an embarrassing mistake... I wrote: > > It is interesting to speculate on why Bagman made his sudden departure. > The possibilities I can think up: [...] > 2. When Harry disappeared, thought his bet was lost, fled from Goblins immediately. [...] > 5. Gred and Forge thought Bagman ran for it right after the third task for fear of the goblins. > For that to be true, it would have to have been after Harry returned, and Bagman would > have to have thought he won and then had his conversation with the goblins who said > Harry didn't win, he'd only tied. Was so afraid of goblins he ran. Obviously, the first sentence of #5 implies that #2 is impossible, which it's not. What I *meant* to say was that what Gred and Forge had *heard* was Bagman thought he had won, tried to collect on his bet with the goblins, but they asserted he'd only tied, so Bagman fled from them. For *that* to be true, Bagman would most likely have remained at Hogwarts until after Harry's return and then sought out the goblins himself (who were nearby, keeping an eye on him, surely) to try to get them to say they were square. Sorry for the confusion... Annemehr From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 16:45:59 2004 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:45:59 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91638 "entropymail" wrote: > I've been going over the whole "Sirius is dead" thing for a while, and > wanted to put everything together. Besides JKR's ominous quote that no > one comes back once they are "properly dead" (what is properly dead, > anyway?), I've been trying to look for clues as to whether Sirius > actually may or may not return. It just doesn't seem right, in a > literary sense, to spend all of this time on a character and then > trash him before he is fully drawn. > > So, we know that Peter has told Voldemort that Sirius is an Animagus > ("Voldemort will know all about me being an Animagus by now, Wormtail > will have told him..."). So, as Sirius says, his "big disguise is > useless". Meanwhile, Lucius has seen Sirius in his Animagus form at > King's Cross station. He can now be sure that the Weasleys, Moody, > Lupin, et al are in contact with Sirius and know of his whereabouts. > It's just a matter of time before Lucius leaks his information to the > Ministry and/or Voldemort. This puts them all in great danger. And > clearly, Dumbledore's plan of Sirius hiding out at Grimmauld Place > indefinitely is not working for Sirius. This is not a long-term > option for him. He is bored, restless, and sure to become increasingly > reckless if this is allowed to continue. > > This means that Dumbledore and the Order need to come up with a new > way of hiding Sirius. How? > > Perhaps by faking his death. We have already seen, In Book 1(ch. 8, > pg. 138 US ed.) "a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the > Draught of Living Death", which can be brewed by combining asphodel > and wormwood. So, we know that it is possible to fake Sirius' death > in a convincing and realistic way (lovely that Snape will likely be > the one to brew this one!). > > Has Sirius been weighing this option for some time? When Harry asks if > he can stay with Sirius at Grimmauld Place if all does not go well at > his trial, and he is kicked out of Hogwarts, Sirius' answer is "We'll > see." Given that Sirius would love to have some company, not to > mention someone who is the closest thing he'll ever get to his old bud > James, you would think that Sirius would jump at the possibility. But > if Sirius knew of Dumbledore's protection at Privet Drive, his answer > would be a definite "no". Even if he had doubts about how comfortable > Harry would be at Grimmauld, his answer might be something along the > lines of "Well, if you think you'd be happy here..." But he gives > Harry a noncommittable answer; exactly the answer one would give if he > knew he wasn't going to be around, but couldn't let on. > > Now, on to the duel between Bellatrix and Sirius in the Dept. of > Mysteries. Of course, we are all aware of the mysterious second > curse. We all know that Bellatrix cast the first, which Sirius > dodged. But then "the second jet of light hit him squarely in the > chest." Not "Bellatrix's curse", not even a "green jet" which would > surely be an AK and would seal Sirius' fate. Just "a second jet". > Given that Dumbledore has already appeared, and all of the Death > Eaters except for Bellatrix have begun to run for it, who is it that > took the time to stop running from Dumbledore to cast a curse at > Sirius while he was already being held off by Bellatrix? Perhaps it > wasn't one of the Death Eaters, but an OOP member, simply giving > Sirius a convenient nudge. > > After Sirius takes his long, dramatic arc through the veil, Lupin is > the one to tell Harry that Sirius is surely gone (There's nothing you > can do, Harry...It's too late, Harry..."). How does Lupin know what > the veil is? How in the world would a werewolf (the most outside of > outsiders) have any idea what is going on in the Department of > Mysteries? He wouldn't, unless he was given knowledge of the veil > beforehand. > > Anyway, I'm still working out bits and pieces of this. Some things > won't be answered until much later (like, "where is Sirius' body?" and > "how quickly could the Order put the plan into effect when they found > they had to run to the MOM to save Harry?"). But I do think this is > the Order's best way of keeping Sirius hidden and safe. > > As they say, fire away... > > > :: Entropy :: You have written down what I've been thinking since I first read OOP. Something's not right about Sirius' death. He was not hit with an AK and Bellatrix didn't seem to 'fire the shot'. To sum up what I was thinking, I wrote this: STAGED.COM Sirius' Tragedy an Act Granted Essential by Dumbledore to Call Off Manhunt Marci (I thought that said it all) From entropymail at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 17:06:31 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:06:31 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91639 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: > You have written down what I've been thinking since I first read > OOP. Something's not right about Sirius' death. He was not hit with > an AK and Bellatrix didn't seem to 'fire the shot'. To sum up what I > was thinking, I wrote this: > > STAGED.COM > Sirius' Tragedy an Act Granted Essential by Dumbledore to Call Off > Manhunt Love the acronym! Been wondering lately how Regulus' story relates to this theory as well. I think many people agree that there is definitely more to Regulus Black than we have seen. Here's an idea: Regulus went to Dumbledore 15 years ago and asked him for help in getting out of the DE's (we know from Sirius' discussion with Harry that Regulus wanted out). His solution was to fake Regulus' death. This might explain the name "Order of the Phoenix": one of their prime directives at the time of the first war may have been to aid Death Eaters in "disappearing", allowed to reappear once Voldemort was finally defeated. :: Entropy :: From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Feb 25 17:13:25 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:13:25 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91640 Pippin (me) previously: > So IMO, an Order member fired the curse that pushed Sirius through the veil. That's why he looked surprised...just like Cedric, and probably for the same reason--he recognized the killer and it was someone he thought was a friend.< > > Eustace_Scrubb queried: > > Well, I understand your position, though I'm more apt to use Occam's Razor and say it was Bellatrix with AK in the Department of Mysteries. > > But my question relates to the above--are you suggesting that Cedric recognized Pettigrew and thought he was a friend?< Nope, I'm suggesting that Peter didn't kill Cedric. In any case Cedric couldn't have recognized him. Peter was hooded and Harry himself didn't recognize him until later. I'm suggesting that someone else was in the graveyard. Harry hears the words, "Kill the spare" from directly overhead, meaning Wormtail is still holding Voldebabe. Next, Harry hears the swishing noise and a voice screeches Avada Kedavra to the night. So do we imagine that fumble-fingered Wormtail managed to swish a wand out of his pocket before putting Voldebabe down, or that he put him down and took out the wand, all while Cedric was politely standing there waiting to be murdered? And look at the wand echoes: spell/caster/echo ==The QWC== conjuring the Dark Mark/Barty Crouch Jr/Dark Mark ==The Graveyard== Avada Kedavra/?/Cedric wand light/Peter/ no echo ropes conjuring/Peter/no echo fire lighting/Peter/no echo grave dust/Peter/no echo ==Voldemort draws the wand that killed Cedric from his pocket== Peter thrown against the tombstone/Voldemort/no echo crucio/Voldemort/screams silver hand conjuring/Voldemort/silver hand crucio/Voldemort/screams making Harry bow/Voldemort/ no echo crucio/Voldemort/screams imperio/Voldemort/no echo Not every spell leaves an echo. But conjuring does. What happened to the echo of the conjured ropes? Did Peter conjure the ropes wandlessly, as Quirrell did in Book One? If he could do that, why didn't he do it in the Shrieking Shack, and escape from Sirius and Lupin? Did Peter use Voldemort's wand to kill Cedric, then immediately switch to another ? Bertha's? Or did Peter never have Voldemort's wand at all? Occam's razor suggests he wasn't alone. Lupin with Voldemort's wand in the Graveyard Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Feb 25 17:15:29 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:15:29 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91641 Pippin (me) previously: > So IMO, an Order member fired the curse that pushed Sirius through the veil. That's why he looked surprised...just like Cedric, and probably for the same reason--he recognized the killer and it was someone he thought was a friend.< > > Eustace_Scrubb queried: > > Well, I understand your position, though I'm more apt to use Occam's Razor and say it was Bellatrix with AK in the Department of Mysteries. > > But my question relates to the above--are you suggesting that Cedric recognized Pettigrew and thought he was a friend?< Nope, I'm suggesting that Peter didn't kill Cedric. In any case Cedric couldn't have recognized him. Peter was hooded and Harry himself didn't recognize him until later. I'm suggesting that someone else was in the graveyard. Harry hears the words, "Kill the spare" from directly overhead, meaning Wormtail is still holding Voldebabe. Next, Harry hears the swishing noise and a voice screeches Avada Kedavra to the night. So do we imagine that fumble-fingered Wormtail managed to swish a wand out of his pocket before putting Voldebabe down, or that he put him down and took out the wand, all while Cedric was politely standing there waiting to be murdered? And look at the wand echoes: spell/caster/echo ==The QWC== conjuring the Dark Mark/Barty Crouch Jr/Dark Mark ==The Graveyard== Avada Kedavra/?/Cedric wand light/Peter/ no echo ropes conjuring/Peter/no echo fire lighting/Peter/no echo grave dust/Peter/no echo ==Voldemort draws the wand that killed Cedric from his pocket== Peter thrown against the tombstone/Voldemort/no echo crucio/Voldemort/screams silver hand conjuring/Voldemort/silver hand crucio/Voldemort/screams making Harry bow/Voldemort/ no echo crucio/Voldemort/screams imperio/Voldemort/no echo Not every spell leaves an echo. But conjuring does. What happened to the echo of the conjured ropes? Did Peter conjure the ropes wandlessly, as Quirrell did in Book One? If he could do that, why didn't he do it in the Shrieking Shack, and escape from Sirius and Lupin? Did Peter use Voldemort's wand to kill Cedric, then immediately switch to another ? Bertha's? Or did Peter never have Voldemort's wand at all? Occam's razor suggests he wasn't alone. Lupin with Voldemort's wand in the Graveyard Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 18:00:24 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:00:24 -0000 Subject: Potters - A question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91642 Tanya Swaine wrote: > > However, this is my question. At that time, Harry would of been > > 13-15 months old. The prophecy was overheard before his birth. > > Surely it didn't take LV over a year to figure out who to target. > > If James and Lily were not protected by that spell in the year or > > so leading up to the charm being cast with Peter as secret > > keeper, how did they remain safe for so long?" Bookworm wrote: > My theory is that Snape was the eavesdropper in the Hogs Head. He > didn't tell LV about the prophecy right away, working instead with > Dumbledore. During that year, Dumbledore worked with the Potters > and Longbottoms to establish protection charms for their babies. > As members of the Order, they would have known that they were in > danger anyway, so having this warning gave them time to prepare. > When things were ready, Dumbledore sent Snape to tell LV about the > (partial) prophecy and the Potters and Longbottoms went into hiding. Siriusly Snapey Susan now: My question, then, RB, would be *why* the "time was right" for Snape to go to LV? If he was indeed the one who overheard, yet managed to keep that information from LV for all that time that he worked w/ DD, then why EVER go give the info to Voldy? Do you see what I'm asking? If he could keep it from him for a year, why couldn't he keep it from him forever? Siriusly Snapey Susan From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 18:26:04 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:26:04 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91643 Snip > As for treacherous little Kreacher, with no more Blacks to serve, he's > probably free now. And what would a wretched House Elf loyal to the > Blacks do? He'd offer his services to his adored Bellatrix if he can > find her, or failing that, to Narcissa--who just happens to be in need > of a House Elf with Dobby freed. > > Carol Sue: I'm jumping in late on this one, our computer was down. I had always believed Kreature was tied to the house. He did not leave when Mrs. Black died, he just stayed in the house and answered the demands of a crazy portrait. I think if he was able to go to work for Narcissa he would have done so when Mrs. Black died and everyone else was in Azkaban. It seems more likely to me that "his adored Bellatrix" will try to find #12 and move her escaped clan in there. Just my thoughts. From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 18:53:29 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:53:29 -0000 Subject: Dealing w/ Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91644 Snip > I think there is much more to House Elves than we know about. For > example, some questions I have asked before: > 1) How can Dobby apparate in and out of Hogwarts? > 2) How did the MoM detect a Hover Charm was used at 4 Privet Drive > but did not detect a house elf had performed it? > > Julie - who still wonders if there is a connection between house > elves and goblins This made me think of another question about Kreacher. We know House Elves can apparate into Hogwarts (or at least within Hogwarts, Dobby may have come through the kitchens after traveling another way to the actual castle). We also know Kreacher is willing and capable of hurting another being (Buckbeak). What is to stop Kreacher from going to Hogwarts and harming Harry if he were told to by Narcissa or Bella? Just wondering. Sue From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 19:06:25 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:06:25 -0000 Subject: HOW many classmates? All things are Relative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91645 snip Bboy_mn wrote: > Greatest number = Hufflepuff > Somewhat Large = Ravenclaw > Small = Gryfindor > Small = Slytherin > > Just off the top of my head, I would guess a ratio of 40H/30R/15G/15S. > I can't prove that ratio, so it's more of an illustration of my point > than anything else. > >snip> > bboy_mn This would also be a reasonable explanation as to why Gryffindor never has classes with Ravenclaw. There is one problem with your theory (which I happen to agree with), the Sorting Hat says in OotP it has to "quarter" the students each year. This would indicate that the division would be fairly equal. There are also many references to the tables in the Great Hall during feasts and they are always full. JKR never mentions that there are significantly fewer students at Gryffinder or Slytherin tables. In another post (who knows where I wrote it, it could be in OT Chatter) I mentioned that the sheer size of the dormitory would be astronomical if there are approx. 30 students per year per house. In Gryffindor alone the boys tower would have 3 floors per year meaning a tower of 21 stories (1 tower each for boys and girls) assuming that each dorm room held 5 students. Not only that, but crowding in the common room takes on a whole new meaning with over 200 students crammed in. That said, in JKR's world they can fit what, 10 people in a Ford Anglia? So I guess anything goes. Sue, who would ask JKR *exactly* how many Gryffindors there are in Harry's year, along with all of the other questions mentioned. From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 19:20:51 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:20:51 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91646 snip > Hitomi: > Actually, I'm more annoyed that Harry never looked at what Sirius > gave him after Christmas. If JKR had had him do so, there never > would have been a need to go into Umbridge's office, either time. > He just could have talked to Sirius through the mirrors, Kreacher > never could have tricked him, and Sirius would probably still be > alive. It's always seemed to me to be a strange plot-hole > oversight. snip > ~ Hitomi I have always been troubled by this as well. When Harry put the mirror away, he vowed never to use it and, evidentally, forgot all about it. Why, when he broke it at the end did he throw it back in his trunk instead of in the trash? Where is James's mirror, we know he had one. I have a feeling the mirror (and perhaps all mirrors in the series) will reappear and Harry will be very glad he has it. It is, of course, in several pieces now. The better to share with others he needs to keep in touch with. Sue From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Feb 25 19:44:43 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:44:43 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: a_reader2003: > > Is anyone else as irritated as me that Harry and Hermione didn't just > > floo out of Umbridge's office straight to Grimmauld Place, instead of > > wasting all that time being caught and riding thestrals to disaster > > in the MoM ? Kneasy: > A small but important point: > Did hhe have any Floo powder? Geoff: Two points. (1) The thestral business arose after Harry and Hermione lured DJU into the Forest and this occurred after she yanked Harry out of the fire when he was communicating with Grimmauld Place. Just prior to this.... "Harry dashed over to the fireplace, seized the pot of Floo powder and threw a pinch into the grate, causing emerald flames to burst into life there." (OOTP "Out of the Fire" p.652 UK edition) So the answer to the question is "Yes". (2) Referring to Iggy's reply to this at 91623, looking at the scene in COS where Harry Floos out of the Burrow and ends up at Borgin and Burkes, we read... "He closed his eyes again wishing it would stop and then - he fell, face forward onto cold stone and felt his glasses shatter. Dizzy and bruised, covered in soot, he got gingerly to his feet, holding his broken glasses up to his eyes. He was quite alone but where he was, he had no idea. All he could tell was that he was standing in the stone fireplace of what looked like a large dimly lit wizard's shop...." (COS "At Flourish and Blotts" p.42, UK edition) Note he is standing "in" the fireplace. If the fire was lit, by now he would be wearing hot pants........ Referring back to the matter of Umbridge's grate earlier in my reply, note that when Harry threw the powder into the grate, emerald flames /burst/ into life. In the scene in the Burrow in COS, adding the powder causes the flames to /turn/ emerald green, a slightly different scenario. It was also a warm summer day; we are told that the kittens on the plates were basking in the sunshine. Would the dear lady have a fire? From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Feb 25 19:54:40 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:54:40 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91648 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: Carol: > > I remember one instance when Snape addressed Draco Malfoy as Draco, > > which surprised me at the time, considering that he usually uses last > > names without even a "Mr." I think it was in PoA but I'm not sure. > (snip) > Eva: > I'm pretty sure it was OotP, although it could have occured in a previous book as well. Geoff: It occurs in OOTP when Snape is with Harry for an Occlumency lesson and Draco barges in.... "Snape's door banged open and Draco Malfoy sped in. 'Professor Snape, sir - oh - sorry -' Malfoy was looking at Snape and Harry in some surprise. 'It's all right, Draco,' said Snape, lowering his wand...." (OOTP "Snape's Worst Memory" p.562 UK edition) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Feb 25 20:04:23 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:04:23 -0000 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Bagman as fall guy works for me, but it would probably be temporary. Bagman, > if ever questioned, would reveal that it was Moody (as he thought) who carried > the Cup into the maze. However, I don't believe Crouch was intended to try to > remain at Hogwarts; the teaching job was only for the one year, after all. If all > had gone as planned, I don't think suspicion would have fallen on Crouch until > he had rejoined Voldemort. > > It is interesting to speculate on why Bagman made his sudden departure. > The possibilities I can think up: > 1. He was a DE, had no idea LV was back until his Mark burned, went to the graveyard. > 2. When Harry disappeared, thought his bet was lost, fled from Goblins immediately. > 3. He was a DE and in on the plans, went to the graveyard. > 4. He got scared at the sight of Cedric's body, fled to escape responsibility for a > champion's death. Maybe afraid he'd been set up, maybe just plain scared. > 5. Gred and Forge thought Bagman ran for it right after the third task for fear of the goblins. > For that to be true, it would have to have been after Harry returned, and Bagman would > have to have thought he won and then had his conversation with the goblins who said > Harry didn't win, he'd only tied. Was so afraid of goblins he ran. > > Actually, many of these can be true at the same time. > Kneasy: It's difficult to get a grip on Bagman in these circumstances - Crouch!Moody keeps muddying the waters. He is acting like a true fanatic, serving his Master is the only thing that matters, nothing is allowed to get in his way and everything is there to be used and if necessary, discarded; Winky, Crouch Snr, Moody and probably Bagman. Is Bagman playing his own chosen role or one chosen for him by Crouch!Moody? Certainly Bagman would be a useful addition to the coterie of Voldy henchwizards; everybody likes him and nobody takes him seriously. He's regarded as an amiable fool, but I for one strongly suspect that he was involved in, or possibly instigated the holiday from hell for Bertha Jorkins. Add in Moody's kidnapping and his odd behaviour in the forest at the QWC and he looks further up the food-chain we give him credit for. Somebody else may think so too - despite his trial *somebody* manages to arrange for him to be employed at the Ministry. Can you imagine Crouch Snr happily going along with that? But it's the scene in the forest that fascinates me, lots of undertones and hints. It's interesting that it is just before the Trio meet Bagman they run into Winky. She rushes out of the undergrowth and warns them that there are bad wizards about. Did she mean at the campsite or right there in the wood? They then encounter Bagman, in the woods after having a business discussion with Goblins, or so he says later. When told of the trouble at the camp-site his response is "Damn them!" (Hint that he knows who the participants are?) He then disparates. (Where to?) He re-appears after Winky is discovered with Harry's wand. He witters on about the Dark Mark and slides past Crouch's query about where he has been by himself asking why Crouch hadn't been in his seat at the Cup. (Hint that he knew who was in the seat.) Diggory questions Winky as to who conjured the Dark Mark and Winky's eyes flicker from Diggory *to Bagman* and then to Crouch. (Winky thinks or knows that Bagman is involved somehow.) Anne: > Interesting we've never heard anything of Bagman in OoP except that the *Ministry* > wouldn't honor his personal debts to the goblins. If the goblins are going after the > Ministry for their money, doesn't that suggest that Bagman himself is now nowhere > to be found? If he's still working at his job, they could take part of his wages, couldn't > they? Would a large debt to the goblins make a wizard feel the need to > disappear? If that's true, I don't know how one could include the goblins among the > oppressed races of beings. If Bagman is a DE, would his fear of the goblins and his > involvement in the disastrous Triwizard Tournament be enough to cause him to flee > to Voldemort and stay there? 'Course, *Dumbledore* was involved in the TWT, it was > all his idea as a matter of fact, and he isn't taking any flak about it at all, apparently. > Kneasy: Don't know about the US but in Britain private gambling debts are not recoverable in law. If somebody doesn't pay up, you're stuffed. Unless that person was acting as an agent for a third party, in which case you go after them. Fudge playing with the Ministry budget? Sounds silly, but why did the Goblins try to dun the MoM? No organisation will intervene in a private wager gone bad. Personally, I've never thought of Goblins as an oppressed race. 'Barely restrained' is the phrase I'd go for. Re-read the description of Hagrid and Harry going into Gringotts in PS/SS. Hagrid sounds cautious, wary. He knows Goblins are powerful and touchy. So Bagman in hiding has a plausibility about it, but why should he be in hiding for only one reason? If he also sees himself in the frame for the TWT fiasco, then he's got two very good reasons for keeping his head down. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Feb 25 20:04:12 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:04:12 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: Eva: > But on to what I was really going to say; I was rereading PoA a while back with an old > discussion of teachers/students/firstnames fresh in my mind, and I found that Snape > actually calls Neville by first name once in Potions class. (PoA, ch.7) In context, it doesn't > seem very significant (he says "Longbottom" just before), but it still sounds a little strange > considering I don't think I've ever heard him use a student's first name before. Geoff: Having just looked through the "Boggart in the Wardrobe" chapter, I can't see this occurrence. The only thing I can find is, where Lupin takes the class into the Staff Room to see the boggart, Snape gets up to go and.. "At the doorway he turned on his heel and said, 'Possibly no one's warned you Lupin, but this class contains Neville Longbottom.'" (POA "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" p.100 UK edition) Full name, not just first name.... From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 20:16:50 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:16:50 -0000 Subject: Occlumency lessons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91651 snip Aditya wrote: > And speaking of occlumency. It's not this incantation kind of > thing. It seems to be a purely mental ability to focus or focus out > something. As Snape said it is similar to learning to ward off > Imperius curse. There also, Harry didn't have to do much except some > mental kind of feat. So Harry could have learnt occlumency fastly > enough if he had tried it a bit more sincerely and not get swayed in > the grip of so many emotions as he was throughout the book. Harry > seems to have a difficulty learning these kind of mind related things > when he becomes emotional. He had difficulties with learning Patronus > charm too. I think he could learn thwarting Imperius curse so easily > because he wasn't emotionally involved in that lesson. > As for Snape's instructions, I am sure he couldn't have done > anything more than what he did in the first lesson. The rest were > just practice sessions. snip> > Bye > Aditya Sue: This is exactly how I see occlumency as well. I am firmly convinced (and I know others vehemently disagree) that Harry *did* learn, not only occlumency, but legilimency as well. I beleive he will find, just as he did with the Patornus charm, he is fully capable of using the skill when he is really in need of it. This also brings into question (again) Snapes motivation for what he did during those lessons. Certainly practicing would be necessary, just as it was with the Patronus charm, but Lupin always gave Harry time to recover before moving on. If Harry did indeed learn the skill (and indeed if he did not), there is always the question of whether or not it would even work with the connection he shares with Voldemort. I tend to think it would not because Volde is not really using legilimency to see into Harry's mind, it is something quite different created by the "curse that failed" . Evil/good, good/evil...I hope some day we will know for sure where our Snape's loyalties lie. "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." Phineas Nigeles, OotP Sue, who thanks the posters of the Mars/arse joke and the old post about punting (I too, being all too American, imagined a swift kick) for the hearty laughs. From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 20:26:28 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:26:28 -0000 Subject: A question about portkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91652 Sue ponders: In the beginning of GoF (I do not have my book :() Mr. Weasley explains that a portkey is used to transport people at a particular time to another place. As a matter of fact there is a great deal of discussion about the time on Stoteshead Hill, they even counted down. After the QWC, the whole group went to try to get an "early portkey". How is it then, that the portkey in the maze took Cedric and Harry the moment they touched it? Any answers out there? Sue From astratrf at aol.com Wed Feb 25 18:47:18 2004 From: astratrf at aol.com (astratrf) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:47:18 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91653 Hello there. I was rereading OotP, and I was left with a nagging question. Maybe some of you more alert people out there can enlighten me. Isn't prefect a position of honor, given to excellent students, who can then boast throughout their life, and put on their resume, "I was a prefect"? How, then, does Ron deserve the position? I know he has helped "save the day" with Harry more than once, but he hardly seems to be a really good student--more like one who manages to scrape by with adequate grades. Or are Gryffindors undeniably brave but lacking enough in smarts (except Hermione, of course! Why ISN'T she a Ravenclaw?) that Ron represents the top of the heap? Even with the understanding that DD didn't want Harry to have the extra responsibility, I can't figure this out. -Astra (cautiously dipping yet another toe into this forum) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Feb 25 20:38:41 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:38:41 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91654 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Nope, I'm suggesting that Peter didn't kill Cedric. In any case > Cedric couldn't have recognized him. Peter was hooded and > Harry himself didn't recognize him until later. I'm suggesting that > someone else was in the graveyard. > >(snip) > Harry hears the words, "Kill the spare" from directly overhead, > meaning Wormtail is still holding Voldebabe. Next, Harry hears > the swishing noise and a voice screeches Avada Kedavra to the > night. So do we imagine that fumble-fingered Wormtail managed > to swish a wand out of his pocket before putting Voldebabe > down, or that he put him down and took out the wand, all while > Cedric was politely standing there waiting to be murdered? > > Not every spell leaves an echo. But conjuring does. What > happened to the echo of the conjured ropes? > > Did Peter conjure the ropes wandlessly, as Quirrell did in Book > One? If he could do that, why didn't he do it in the Shrieking > Shack, and escape from Sirius and Lupin? Did Peter use > Voldemort's wand to kill Cedric, then immediately switch to > another ? Bertha's? Or did Peter never have Voldemort's wand at > all? > > Occam's razor suggests he wasn't alone. > > Lupin with Voldemort's wand in the Graveyard Ah! Nice idea! I don't agree with you about Lupin of course. Would you expect me to? I do like the idea of someone else in the graveyard though. Now who do we know who wasn't at the TWT, didn't have their own wand and would be instantly recognisable to all in the WW? Who else but Sirius. He was responsible for the cock-up at Godrics Hollow. He escapes from Azkaban (only possible with the connivence of Fudge and/or the Dementors). He led the Dementors to Harry in PoA. He ingratiates himself into Harry's affections. He goes into hiding, no-one knows where. (The Riddle House? Can you think of anywhere safer?) He is protected by Voldy and carries Voldys wand. After Voldy is transformed he goes to Hogwarts, he doesn't see the duel. Ater Harry returns from the graveyard it is he that is reluctant for Harry to be questioned. It is he that seems perturbed that Cedric had been brought back to life by the Priori Incantatum effect, concerned that Cedric might say too much. It is he that reacts when Harry tells of seeing the shades of his parents. Sirius isn't named Black for nothing. Lupin is the one that tries to make amends. He zaps Sirius through the veil. Kneasy From pulpficlet at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 19:34:22 2004 From: pulpficlet at yahoo.com (pulpficlet) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:34:22 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: <000001c3fae0$b0d47dc0$18667144@Einstein> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91655 Iggy Mcsnurd wrote: >I have only one question I would want to know badly enough that I >couldn't wait for the books to be finished to find out... and it's >one that will not be answered in this series. Will you write >anything else, with Harry or without him, after this series is >finished? I would have one question assuming I only get one question. I would want to know which part of which book she would most want to edit and rewrite if she had the chance. My guess is that she would want to rewrite the ending of OotP most of all. I think she could have done much better. She might also want to go back and rewrite the graveyard scene in GoF to fix the wand mistake because that was probably embarrassing. Paula From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 20:40:19 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:40:19 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91656 Snip Marci wrote: > > STAGED.COM > > Sirius' Tragedy an Act Granted Essential by Dumbledore to Call Off > > Manhunt > > Love the acronym! Been wondering lately how Regulus' story relates to > this theory as well. I think many people agree that there is > definitely more to Regulus Black than we have seen. Here's an idea: > > Regulus went to Dumbledore 15 years ago and asked him for help in > getting out of the DE's (we know from Sirius' discussion with Harry > that Regulus wanted out). His solution was to fake Regulus' death. > This might explain the name "Order of the Phoenix": one of their prime > directives at the time of the first war may have been to aid Death > Eaters in "disappearing", allowed to reappear once Voldemort was > finally defeated. > > :: Entropy :: I also love the acronym. There have been several posts about Regulas lately. I love the idea of Regulus being "Stubby Bordman" , and also the poster a while back that mentioned that Sirius is actually two stars together making up one. I truly hope Sirius does not return as a ghost as the star poster suggested, it seems a fate much worse than death to me. But Regulus representing the smaller, darker star is a great image for me. Imagine Harry's surprise at finding brother Regulus is not only alive but has been in hiding working tirelessly for his protection and to defeat Voldemort permanently over the last 15 years. Not Sirius, but someone who knew him well. Sue, who knows Regulus has his own star and wonders WHY none of these DE's already *knew* the Marauders were animagi because of Peter being a spy 15 years ago. From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Wed Feb 25 20:45:59 2004 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:45:59 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91657 > Geoff: > Having just looked through the "Boggart in the Wardrobe" chapter, I > can't see this occurrence. The only thing I can find is, where Lupin > takes the class into the Staff Room to see the boggart, Snape gets up > to go and.. > > "At the doorway he turned on his heel and said, 'Possibly no one's > warned you Lupin, but this class contains Neville Longbottom.'" > > (POA "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" p.100 UK edition) > > Full name, not just first name.... No, it's not there, it's earlier in the chapter. I can't give any exact quotes cause my only copy of PoA is in Swedish, but the chapter begins with a Potions lesson and it's right there, within a few pages. Neville's potion has turned orange, Snape humiliates him in front of everyone for it, and the last word in his little "speech" is "Neville". I hope it's not something the translator has messed up. Eva, who is seriously considering buying another set of PS to GF, just to be able to present correct quotes From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 25 21:35:02 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:35:02 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91658 Astra writes: > Hello there. I was rereading OotP, and I was left with a nagging > question. Maybe some of you more alert people out there can > enlighten me. > > Isn't prefect a position of honor, given to excellent students, > who can then boast throughout their life, and put on their > resume, "I was a prefect"? > > How, then, does Ron deserve the position? I know he has > helped "save the day" with Harry more than once, but he hardly > seems to be a really good student--more like one who manages > to scrape by with adequate grades. Pip!Squeak: It depends on the school, but Hogwarts seems to follow the pattern of treating Prefect as a 'position of responsibility' rather than a 'position of honour'. In which case the only attention paid to marks (grades) would be to check that the student isn't doing *so* poorly that a prefect's extra duties might make them fail exams. Ron qualifies on all counts for a 'position of responsibility'. When faced with problems or danger, he never ducks out, but instead does his best. He rarely breaks rules for the sake of it (the flying car being an exception), but has shown that he knows when rules *must* be broken. Given that Hogwarts is almost certainly heading into a war situation Ron is a terrific choice. He's already shown that he's willing to risk his own life for the sake of others - if for example, younger students found themselves in danger, Ron will very likely be prepared to risk himself to save them. Prefect at many schools isn't about top marks. It's about 'who is the most responsible student? Who shows enough maturity to start acting as a leader?' The speed with which Ron stops the argument between Harry and Seamus shows that Dumbledore and McGonagall are right - out of Harry's shadow, Ron can lead. Pip!Squeak From pulpficlet at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 19:39:37 2004 From: pulpficlet at yahoo.com (pulpficlet) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:39:37 -0000 Subject: The Issue of Death In Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91659 Alisha wrote: > Alright, first and firemost this is my first post here. Hi i'm > Alisha! I'm not technically a grown up, but I actually possess >brain cells, so feel free and imagine that I'm a 'grown up' because >I have the mind of a forty year old. Welcome to you Alisha. I am pretty new also, but getting the hanag of it! >I'm just really curious > about how witches and wizards deal with the subject of death, and >do they have funerals for their dead? I've been trying to look this >up on discussion boards and in the books themselves, and so far I've > only found little clues. Crouch Jr. buried the body of his father once it was transfigured into a bone, so maybe that is a clue. And the big scene in GoF takes place in a graveyard, although I seem to remember it was a Muggle graveyard. Maybe JKR is being vague on this point for a reason. If wizards bury their dead, then Harry has been acting strangely not to express any interest in visiting the graves of his parents. >So obviously, if they don't bury the departed, they > don't have funerals. But then, what do they do? I think they keep an appropriately British stiff upper lip! We rarely see true grieving in the wizarding world either, do we? It's odd IMO and is a missed opportunity for JKR to show us the depth and vulnerability of her characters. Paula From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 21:48:00 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:48:00 -0000 Subject: Why not floo .. to London? Belief vs Reality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91660 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Is anyone else as irritated as me that Harry and Hermione didn't just > floo out of Umbridge's office straight to Grimmauld Place, instead of > wasting all that time being caught and riding thestrals to disaster > in the MoM ? > > ...edited... > > Yeah, yeah, I know, it was a plot device to ensure Neville, Luna and > Ginny got there too for reasons we will no doubt discover, but > clunky or what.. > > Carolyn, grumpily. bboy_mn: Hope I didn't miss this in the thread, I've read it over several days, so all posts aren't fresh in my mind. The most obvious answer to the question, is that you can't Floo in and out of Hogwarts. Hermione is constantly reminding us that Hogwarts is protected against entry by magical stealth means. Apparation is most often mentioned, but I think we can all assume that the protections apply to most magical methods of transportation. Although, it's possible Hermione/JKR constantly mentioning this is an authoral distraction or misdirection. It really doesn't matter if you can Floo in and out of the castle, because I'm sure Harry believes, as JKR has tried to make us believe, that you can't Floo in and out. Now the exceptions- We have seen that you can Floo/fire travel with in the castle; Snape calls Lupin to his office using the fire, and once called, Lupin arrives in Snape's office by fire. But travel within the castle would not be much of a security risk. So, that acception seems reasonable. In the latest book (OotP), we see Dumbledore use both Floo and Portkey to enter the castle, as well at exit by Phoenix. What's up with that? First we must remember that Dumbledore controls the magical protections around the castle, it's not unreasonable that he could have programmed exceptions for himself. It's also reasonably possible that being in control of the protections, allows him to open and close them at will. The other exception was the arrival of Beauxbatons and Durmstrang in GoF, I take the same position here; Dumbledore controls the protections and he controls the exceptions. If he was familiar with the other school, he would logically know their method of travel and time of arrival, and would have made appropriate allowances. Harry's portkey/Tri-Wizard's Cup travel to the Little Hangleton graveyard is far more difficult to determine. A favored and simple solution theory is that the Tri-Wizard's cup was always a Portkey that took the champion who touch it first out of the maze. So, once again, that would have allowed Dumbledore to create an exception or lower the protections to allow the Portkey to function during the third task. The conclusion- So, my position is that Harry and the gang didn't run back to the castle to Floo because they didn't believe Floo travel was possible. Regardless of whether or not it is possible, I think it's fair to say the believed it was not. Also, going back to the school opened the potential for running into a very angry Inquisitorial Squad and many adults who would surely thwart their plans, or at least create delays. So, they were all together in the forest, they had a means of transportation, they had no adults to interfer (adults can be so interferring to even the best of a child's plans), consequently, they seized the resources they had and went with them. Remember, it's not so much whether you CAN Floo in and out of Hogwarts, as it is whether Harry and Hermione BELIEVE you can Floo in and out of Hogwarts. Based on Hermione's constant reminders, it reasonable to think they believe they can not. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 21:34:44 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:34:44 -0000 Subject: Dealing w/ Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91661 Hey all I agree with Sue in that Kreacher could pose a possible further threat to the order and Harry. Based on his past actions of lying to the order and telling secrets about Harry, he could in the future develope a sense of autonomy because he now has no master to serve. Why not give him what he wants and put his head on the wall? Could we see a future fight between Kreacher and Dobby? I would like to see it. Also if Voldemort attacks the castle wouldn't over 100 house elves be good allies? Couldn't they do DD bidding if he asked them to? Why not ask them to join the order's side and have them take up an active role in war? John who thinks house elves could kick some serious DE butt. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Feb 25 22:19:51 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:19:51 -0000 Subject: A question about portkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91662 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > Sue ponders: > > In the beginning of GoF (I do not have my book :() Mr. Weasley > explains that a portkey is used to transport people at a particular > time to another place. As a matter of fact there is a great deal of > discussion about the time on Stoteshead Hill, they even counted > down. After the QWC, the whole group went to try to get an "early > portkey". How is it then, that the portkey in the maze took Cedric > and Harry the moment they touched it? > > Any answers out there? Geoff: I think with the Stoatshead Hill portkey, it was one of a large number which were transporting folk to the Quidditch ground at a specific time and presumably had been "programmed" to operate in that way. I have a feeling that this was discussed some time ago and someone suggested that you could have an "open ended" portkey (rather like we have open return rail tickets here in the UK) which can be used as required or when touched. It was suggested that the Tri- Wizard Cup portkey was set up to send anyone touching it to the graveyard and then back at any time - the plan being that if Voldemort had managed to kill Harry, he would have sent his body back whenever he had succeeded. Again, in OOTP, Dumbledore sets up a portkey after the battle at the Ministry which was activated on the count of three. So portkeys can function in more than one way it would seem. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Feb 25 22:25:42 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:25:42 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91663 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "astratrf" wrote: Astra: > Hello there. I was rereading OotP, and I was left with a nagging > question. Maybe some of you more alert people out there can > enlighten me. > > Isn't prefect a position of honor, given to excellent students, who > can then boast throughout their life, and put on their resume, "I > was a prefect"? Geoff: Not necessarily. when I was at my grammar school (which was a day school), I was made a prefect in the First Year Sixth and I think it was a question of whether you were reliable, whether you could be counted on to do duties conscientiously when scheduled to, to be able to handle people and get on well with folk. I do not think that academic achievement came into it. I can remember one guy who was an absolute blinder as an achiever but would have been absolutely hopeless as a prefect because he just wasn't on the same planet.... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 22:26:06 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:26:06 -0000 Subject: A question about portkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > Sue ponders: > > In the beginning of GoF (I do not have my book :() Mr. Weasley > explains that a portkey is used to transport people at a particular > time to another place. As a matter of fact there is a great deal of > discussion about the time on Stoteshead Hill, they even counted > down. After the QWC, the whole group went to try to get an "early > portkey". How is it then, that the portkey in the maze took Cedric > and Harry the moment they touched it? > > Any answers out there? > Sue bboy_mn: So, let me ask you a totally unrelated question. How do you start a car? The most obvious answer is, you get in the car, put in the key and turn it to 'Start'. But, I was in a small strip mall the other day and as I walk out to my car, the car sitting right next to mine started on it's own. How, you and I may ask? Answer: the car had a remote starter. Actually not that unusual up here in the great white north. Very convinient for starting you car on cold winter mornings. But wait there's more. We even have cars that start on a timer. Set your car to start at 6:30am so that it's nice and toasty warm inside when you leave for work at 7:00am. Back to Portkeys- Mr. Weasley was explaining to Harry how THEIR Portkey was going to work. We have actually seen Portkey activated by several methods in the book and their is no reason to believe that, just like starting a car on a cold winter morning, these aren't standard variations of a theme. The methods of activation- Time of day - very safe for use when traveling to the World Cup. If you miss the departure time of the Portkey, the spell is lost and the the Portkey simply becomes a muggle-safe manky old boot laying on the ground. Activated by touch - Another logical and convinient way to use a portkey. You are get ready to go to work, you grab your preprogrammed Portkey and bada-bing bada-boom, you are off to work. Countdown activated - for those times when you can't plan ahead. You charm the object, allow time for everyone to touch it, when everyone is ready, you then activate it on the count of three. Command activated - same as above, but instead of going 1, 2, 3, GO!, you just say 'NOW!', and you are off. So, the conclusion that allows for the many variations we see in the books, is that these are indeed just variation of the different ways to program a Portkey. So, in situations like this, where you have what might appear to be an inconsistancy, just do what I do, make something up. Just a thought. Steve/bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Feb 25 22:32:43 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:32:43 -0000 Subject: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91665 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > > Geoff: > > Having just looked through the "Boggart in the Wardrobe" chapter, I > > can't see this occurrence. The only thing I can find is, where Lupin > > takes the class into the Staff Room to see the boggart, Snape gets up > > to go and.. > > > > "At the doorway he turned on his heel and said, 'Possibly no one's > > warned you Lupin, but this class contains Neville Longbottom.'" > > > > (POA "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" p.100 UK edition) > > > > Full name, not just first name.... > Eva: > No, it's not there, it's earlier in the chapter. I can't give any exact quotes cause my only > copy of PoA is in Swedish, but the chapter begins with a Potions lesson and it's right there, > within a few pages. Neville's potion has turned orange, Snape humiliates him in front of > everyone for it, and the last word in his little "speech" is "Neville". > > I hope it's not something the translator has messed up. Geoff: I'm afraid it is. The UK edition reads.... "His potion, which was supposed to be a bright, acid, green, had turned - 'Orange, Longbottom,' said Snape, ladling some up and allowing it to splash back into the cauldron so that everyone could see. 'Orange. Tell me, boy, does anything penetrate that thick skull of yours? Didn't you hear me say, quite clearly, that only one rat spleen was needed? Didn't I state plainly that a dash of leech juice would suffice? What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?'" (POA "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" pp. 95-96 UK edition) From snapesmate at hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 22:37:28 2004 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:37:28 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91666 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: > > In any case, "properly dead" keeps ringing in my ears. I think if > she wanted us to know that Sirius was "properly dead," she would have > provided better proof, rather than leaving us with lots of ambiguity. > > > Sophierom: > Entropy, I also like your theory but I'm torn ... as much as I agree > with your above statement, and as much as I would like to see Sirius > alive, I feel like it would be a little cheap of JKR to pull Sirius > out of a hiding place somewhere and say, "Tada! He's been alive all > this time!" > > I wonder if the ambiguity surrounding Sirius's death is instead > meant to make us feel like Harry: we're always hoping, beyond all > hope, that Sirius isn't really dead. > > Sophierom I must admit, I too have latched onto JKR's "properly dead" comment with a death grip! (pun fully intended, LOL!) I want Sirius back in Harry's life. So while I am grasping at straws, why, after getting hit "squarely in the chest", did Sirius go flying in a "graceful arch, down through the veil"? McGonagall got hit in the chest with multiple stunning spells and didn't get launched flying, soaring or skittering anywhere. She just got sent to St. Mungo's after basically falling over, if memory serves me. I know we were not told what colour the jet of light was or who cast it. (that hit Sirius) We are meant to think it was Bellatrix and another stunning curse (red light). If it was stupefy and Sirius was alive when he fell through the veil, would that make him less "properly" dead? Does that mean if you could find him on that other plane of existence you could guide him back to this one? Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is not a very NICE guy. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Feb 25 22:41:57 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:41:57 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Occlumency lessons Message-ID: <32.44924756.2d6e7eb5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91667 In a message dated 2/25/2004 9:47:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: Well, I can say many bad words about Snape's attitude towards Harry in OoP (I don't think I will forgive him stopping lessons for a long time to come :o)), but in all fairness we don't know what are the correct instructions for teaching occlumency are. Yes, "empty your mind' does not seem like much and I certainly want to say that it was not enough, but more detailed instructions seem to be the product of fanfiction only so far. ============= Sherrie here: IIRC, he DID tell Harry that Occlumency required the same sort of resistance as resisting the Imperius curse. Snape knows that Harry WAS able to fight that off. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Feb 25 22:58:05 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:58:05 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron as prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <403DC32D.11504.5329003@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 91668 On 25 Feb 2004 at 18:47, astratrf wrote: > Hello there. I was rereading OotP, and I was left with a nagging > question. Maybe some of you more alert people out there can > enlighten me. > > Isn't prefect a position of honor, given to excellent students, who > can then boast throughout their life, and put on their resume, "I > was a prefect"? It can be - but at my school, and at most schools I know of, it was more a position of duty, responsibility, and trust. There was respect associated with the position, certainly, but that mostly because you were expected to work pretty hard. > How, then, does Ron deserve the position? I know he has > helped "save the day" with Harry more than once, but he hardly > seems to be a really good student--more like one who manages > to scrape by with adequate grades. Or are Gryffindors > undeniably brave but lacking enough in smarts (except > Hermione, of course! Why ISN'T she a Ravenclaw?) that Ron > represents the top of the heap? Even with the understanding > that DD didn't want Harry to have the extra responsibility, I can't > figure this out. To be a prefect in most schools I know of, didn't mean you had to be someone who did well academically - though it helped. At my school, what they seemed to want was people who either stood out in one area, with adequate performance in others, or who had good performance across the board - a well rounded person. There was also the added factor that they sometimes appointed prefects who they thought would rise to the challenge - it was, like most things at school, intended to be a learning experience - and if they had someone who they felt had the potential to develop into a leader if given the chance, then they could be appointed as well. I think Ron could fit that category quite well - youngest brother with five fairly successful older brothers - even the twins are successful in the things they think are important who has had to live in his shadow. He's proven his courage more than once. I can see him getting the position partly as an expression of confidence that he will rise to it. That's roughly what happened to me at school - I was appointed a prefect and it was a surprise to everyone, including me. But I think I rose to the occasion, and the responsibility, and the duty. I just needed the chance. > -Astra (cautiously dipping yet another toe into this forum) > > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From siskiou at msn.com Wed Feb 25 23:49:44 2004 From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:49:44 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron as prefect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1795478669.20040225154944@msn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91669 Hi, Wednesday, February 25, 2004, 10:47:18 AM, astratrf wrote: > Isn't prefect a position of honor, given to excellent students, who > can then boast throughout their life, and put on their resume, "I > was a prefect"? > How, then, does Ron deserve the position? I guess Hogwarts would have years with no prefects quite often, if this were the case. The only one standing out as an excellent student is Hermione. Nobody else comes even close in Griffindor, and we don't hear enough about the other houses to know how they are doing, academically. Maybe all the prefects would have to be chosen from Ravenclaw, but being "of wit and learning" and "having a ready mind" doesn't necessarily mean, members of this house would be prime prefect material. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at msn.com Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 00:07:50 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 00:07:50 -0000 Subject: Order Headquarters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91670 > Kathy's thoughts: > The problem I see is "they" (like Narcissa) know that Kreacher lives in the > Blacks' Manor. They have also been told (by Kreacher) that Black feels that > Harry is now regarding himself as both father and brother. How would > Kreacher have known this info. unless Black is residing with Kreacher. They > also know that Black is part of the Order. Therefore, the Black Manor may be > deduced as being the headquarters for the Order. Hitomi: I'm completely with you, but here's my thing: I highly doubt the Order would use a Manor that a lot of the pure-blooded and wealthy dark wizards knew about. I'm sure they know the Blacks had to live somewhere, but if the estate is still in use, or even still in existence, isn't something I think they would know. I look at the situation with Dobby - Harry knew who he belonged to Dark wizards, but he had no idea to whom Dobby belonged, and Dobby couldn't tell him. He just deduces the fact upon meeting Lucius Malfoy at the end of Book 2. I doubt Narcissa or Bellatrix would recognize Kreacher, house-elves don't strike me as something they would give much notice to, and how many estates and house-elves are owned by the wealthy families? I have a feeling Kreacher was someone that could give them information on Sirius as far as his habits and relationships, but as to where he was located? That isn't something that could be known, assumed, perhaps, by the Malfoys, but Sirius could have just relocated Kreacher to where he was at a given moment, not necessarily the Manor. The point I was trying to disprove is that the Malfoys know where the Order is located. They might know, but not necessarily. Kreacher isn't a dead giveaway, and even if they do know that Kreacher was still residing in the old Black Manor, they still can't penetrate its protections, or begin to know where it is located - it's unplottable, and has probably been moved around. And, as Louise explained, the Fidelius Charm makes it a rather inconsequential point. Kreacher could find his way back, but he could never lead the Malfoys to the Manor. At any rate, I'm just saying that the Manor could still be safe premises for the Order of the Phoenix, though I would be surprised if DD didn't change headquarters on an average basis, anyway. Besides, we're not entirely sure who the Manor belongs to now. Blood relatives (as in Narcissa, Bellatrix, and Tonks) or Harry. So, I guess it's just a Book 6 question to wait on ;) ~ Hitomi From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 00:15:27 2004 From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 00:15:27 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91671 Sue wrote: > I have always been troubled by this as well. When Harry put the > mirror away, he vowed never to use it and, evidentally, forgot all > about it. Why, when he broke it at the end did he throw it back in > his trunk instead of in the trash? Where is James's mirror, we know > he had one. I have a feeling the mirror (and perhaps all mirrors in > the series) will reappear and Harry will be very glad he has it. It > is, of course, in several pieces now. The better to share with > others he needs to keep in touch with. Hitomi: I always assumed Sirius had both mirrors, and gave James's old one to Harry (according to Sirius' note). But the talking mirrors have always intrigued me, like the one in the Leaky Cauldron in the room Harry stays, or the one at The Burrow. And they all seem to like to comment on Harry's hair, and overall general scruffiness. Are they similar to portraits, or do they stand alone; and unlike the portraits, what give thems a personality, or is it just some sort of Charm? But you're right, such a communication device would be very handy for the trio. ~ Hitomi, who really hopes JKR put the mirror in as some kind of plot device, otherwise it will be one thing about the series that will always annoy her From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Thu Feb 26 01:19:08 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 01:19:08 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Two Beatles Filks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91672 In honor of George Harrison, whose birthday it is today, I now submit a pair of filks based on songs written by him and performed by the Beatles. He Says He's Teaching (A Filk by Gail B. to the tune of _I Want To Tell_ You by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle12.html Harry: He says he's teaching My mind's flooded with past visions It is he Who's the cause of all these obtrusions And when he's speaking The words he says that put me down Anger me As I pick myself up off the ground To these classes I am confined So Voldemort won't read my mind But they're not helping me He keeps persisting That I should do what he assigns I feel weak Could he be trying to undermine? Although we're practicing this spell My friend, Ron, continues to tell me That Snape's a Death Eater He keeps insisting That I clear my mind of thoughts each night But when we meet He attacks verbally out of spite And indicts Then we fight ****************************************** The Inner Eye II (A Filk by Gail B. to the tune of _The Inner Light_ by Beatles) This filk is called "The Inner Eye II" because I previously wrote a filk entitled "The Inner Eye" to a different Beatles tune, "Within You And Without You" which is yet another George song: http://home.att.net/~coriolan/pepper.htm#The_Inner_Eye Midi is here: http://www.davidjwilson.btinternet.co.uk/beatles/beatles_rarities.html Trelawney: By just looking into this orb You can know of the future By just reading somebody's palm You can learn about that person The stronger your Sight is The more you'll know Your Inner Eye will show By just understanding omens You will see what will occur By just gazing out at the stars You can interpret the heaven If you possess the Gift The future will unfold And then you will behold Penetrate the mystery Unfog the obscurity Unravel your destiny -Gail B...who digs George the most! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 01:22:10 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 01:22:10 -0000 Subject: OOP in russian translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91673 Couple of days ago I went into one of my favourite russian bookstores in New York. What do I see there? Finally OoP in russian is out. :o) So, of course I bought it and of course I was rereading bits and pieces from the book. This translation is actually better than they did with other books (maybe because they changed translators), although the fact that they decided to translate some names still hurts my ears. :o) I am still reading ( not doing it in order :o), but there is one thing which made me curious already - when Dumbledore talks to Harry about mysterious force locked in the room and which Harry supposedly has, they actually spelled it out - the retranslation of the sentence sounds something like this " And the name of this force is Love". So, did the translator decide to solve the mystery for us or do they know something we don't? :o) Alla From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 01:45:10 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 01:45:10 -0000 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > Bagman as fall guy works for me, but it would probably be temporary. Bagman, > > if ever questioned, would reveal that it was Moody (as he thought) who carried > > the Cup into the maze. SNIP > > It is interesting to speculate on why Bagman made his sudden departure. > > The possibilities I can think up: > > 1. He was a DE, had no idea LV was back until his Mark burned, went to the graveyard. > > 2. When Harry disappeared, thought his bet was lost, fled from Goblins immediately. > > 3. He was a DE and in on the plans, went to the graveyard. > > 4. He got scared at the sight of Cedric's body, fled to escape responsibility for a > > champion's death. Maybe afraid he'd been set up, maybe just plain scared. > > 5. Gred and Forge thought Bagman ran for it right after the third task for fear of the > goblins. SNIP> > Kneasy: > It's difficult to get a grip on Bagman in these circumstances - Crouch!Moody keeps > muddying the waters. He is acting like a true fanatic, serving his Master is the only > thing that matters, nothing is allowed to get in his way and everything is there to be > used and if necessary, discarded; Winky, Crouch Snr, Moody and probably Bagman. > Is Bagman playing his own chosen role or one chosen for him by Crouch!Moody? > > Certainly Bagman would be a useful addition to the coterie of Voldy henchwizards; > everybody likes him and nobody takes him seriously. He's regarded as an amiable > fool, SNIP> > But it's the scene in the forest that fascinates me, lots of undertones and hints. > > It's interesting that it is just before the Trio meet Bagman they run into Winky. > She rushes out of the undergrowth and warns them that there are bad > wizards about. Did she mean at the campsite or right there in the wood? > They then encounter Bagman, in the woods after having a business discussion > with Goblins, or so he says later. > When told of the trouble at the camp-site his response is "Damn them!" (Hint > that he knows who the participants are?) He then disparates. (Where to?) He > re-appears after Winky is discovered with Harry's wand. He witters on about the > Dark Mark and slides past Crouch's query about where he has been by himself > asking why Crouch hadn't been in his seat at the Cup. (Hint that he knew who > was in the seat.) Diggory questions Winky as to who conjured the Dark Mark and > Winky's eyes flicker from Diggory *to Bagman* and then to Crouch. (Winky thinks > or knows that Bagman is involved somehow.) > > Anne: > > Interesting we've never heard anything of Bagman in OoP except that the *Ministry* > > wouldn't honor his personal debts to the goblins. If the goblins are going after the > > Ministry for their money, doesn't that suggest that Bagman himself is now nowhere > > to be found? If he's still working at his job, they could take part of his wages, couldn't > > they? Would a large debt to the goblins make a wizard feel the need to > > disappear? If that's true, I don't know how one could include the goblins among the > > oppressed races of beings. If Bagman is a DE, would his fear of the goblins and his > > involvement in the disastrous Triwizard Tournament be enough to cause him to flee > > to Voldemort and stay there? 'Course, *Dumbledore* was involved in the TWT, it was > > all his idea as a matter of fact, and he isn't taking any flak about it at all, apparently. > > > > Kneasy: > Don't know about the US but in Britain private gambling debts are not recoverable > in law. If somebody doesn't pay up, you're stuffed. Unless that person was acting as > an agent for a third party, in which case you go after them. Fudge playing with the > Ministry budget? Sounds silly, but why did the Goblins try to dun the MoM? No > organisation will intervene in a private wager gone bad. > > Personally, I've never thought of Goblins as an oppressed race. 'Barely restrained' > is the phrase I'd go for. Re-read the description of Hagrid and Harry going into > Gringotts in PS/SS. Hagrid sounds cautious, wary. He knows Goblins are powerful > and touchy. So Bagman in hiding has a plausibility about it, but why should he be > in hiding for only one reason? If he also sees himself in the frame for the TWT fiasco, > then he's got two very good reasons for keeping his head down. I posted sometime ago that Bagman was a DE. Part of it was the forest scene in GOF, the other part is the wasp that keeps showing up. Bagman was a Wimbly Wasp and seems to always be wearing his old quidditch uniform. I think he is the wasp flying around in GOF when Harry and Hermione are practicing spells in the classroom, and again when Harry is taking OWL's. Right before he falls asleep and has the dream of Sirius being tortured, Harry notices a wasp flying around the window outside. The bet with the Goblins is just a side story to lead us away from Bagmans true cause: watching Harry for LV. Also, I just dont think we have seen all the DE's. In GOF, I think, one of the DE's states he didnot know all the DE's. I would grab books and give page numbers but I have a badly broken bone in my lt foot and carry books and hobble on crutches! Fran From tmar78 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 00:06:38 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:06:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4281 In-Reply-To: <1077742009.9051.72046.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040226000639.32102.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91675 Tyler wrote: > When Sirius handed over his parents' house to Dumbledore > why didn't he justput a memory charm on Kreacher and give > him clothes? Elihu answers: Maybe it's because Dumbledore is worried after the whole Bertha Jorkins incident. Barty Crouch Sr. put a memmory charm on her, yet Voldemort got the imformation which was being hidden anyway (about Barty Crouch's son). Tyler answers: The thing is, if Kreacher's memory was totally removed and he couldn't remember any of Black's relatives then he wouldn't be able to find them on his own. And the odds that he would come across them by accident are pretty slim. Of course, if they didn't want to take any risk at all, after modifying his memory why not employ him at Hogwarts? None of the DE's would find him there. Its also doubtful that Draco has ever been in the kitchens and even if he does go down there for a midnight snake on occasion, he wouldn't recognize the elf. He's never met him (as far as we know). Tyler ===== "It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." - Albus Dumbledore __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 03:10:31 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 03:10:31 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: <009d01c3fb6c$96c10de0$536a6744@DEAN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91676 Cindy wrote: I know there's no canon to support this, but the veil seems like a method of execution, or maybe even euthanasia. The room has 360 degree stadium seating, with the veil being right in the middle. It's like there's supposed to be witnesses when someone "crosses through". When I first read OOTP, I just visualized it that way; it seemed to make the most sense. So please understand this is just my speculation... Carol: Don't worry about speculating. It's all any of us can do with regard to the veil. But my reading is a bit different. We haven't seen anything like the death penalty in the Potter books. even the very worst criminals--say Mulciber, who murdered the Prewetts--are sent to Azkaban. Maybe the idea is, to use a pair of cliches, that Azkaban is a fate worse than death or death is too good for the DEs. But still, you'd think that Crouch Sr. would want such people removed from the WW forever, and sending them through the veil (if it's a doorway to death) would do that, yet he doesn't choose that option. I think that the veiled archway somehow allows the Unspeakables to study death--not as a coroner does, to discover the cause of a particular death, but to study death itself as one of the great Mysteries (the others being life, time, the mind, and probably love) that have intrigued philosophers since the time of the Greeks. How they could do it, I don't know, but maybe they have ways of communicating with the spirit voices that Harry and Luna hear behind the veil. But the archway is described as ancient and it's placed, as you say, in an amphitheater, so maybe it was used as a place of execution in Roman times and the Department of Mysteries was built on that spot specifically to study death and only later expanded to include other Mysteries--followed in modern times by an entire building dedicated to bureaucracy. Well, you see where my speculations led me! Not an ounce of evidence except the word "amphitheater," which suggests the Romans or their Romanized Celtic contemporaries (Druids practicing in secret?) and a crumbling, clearly ancient archway. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 03:36:18 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 03:36:18 -0000 Subject: Zabini and Nott In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91677 Koinonia wrote: Theodore Nott is indeed mentioned in the books but then he is seen in the company of Draco and we know his father and possibly his grandfather are DE's. He does seem more connected with the DE side of Slytherin. However, it is possible he is the thestral-boy and those DE activities don't excite him very much. Carol: I think he's with the other boys on this one occasion because all of their fathers (except Goyle's) have just been arrested. But it doesn't look as if he found a common bond with Draco and company. He doesn't join their gang. After that one scene, he seems to go back to being a loner. I just find him intriguing (of course, the resemblance to the young Snape may have something to do with it as well). I just want to find out more about him, and be very disappointed if he becomes a close friend of Draco's. At least he doesn't appear to be a thug, and both he and Blaise apparently cheered along with the Gryffindors when Harry rode Buckbeak. (Even Pansy and Millicent seem to have forgotten themselves for a moment and joined in the cheering. :-) It was only Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle who refused to join in.) Koinonia: I would like to think there are many kids in Slytherin who are good. Having said that, I don't want to find out Sirius or James was a Slytherin. That crowd can stay in Gryffindor. I want to see some Slytherin comtemporaries of Snape who have been fighting evil. I'm hoping Draco can pull away from the influence of his father. Maybe I'm asking for too much. Carol: I agree on all counts, though I don't have much hope for Draco. Koinonia: Personally, I don't worry about flints and I don't stand around picking out those things which just don't seem to fit. I find it takes away from the joy of the books. However, it is a bit irritating that Harry wouldn't know who Theodore Nott was after all those years of having classes together. Still, I won't dwell on that part. Carol: Well, you know Harry. Absorbed in his own problems (he has enough of them) and his friendships with Ron and Hermione. He doesn't really seem interested in learning who anyone else is, especially not a Slytherin. And it appears that no one speaks up in either of the classes that the Gryffindors and the Slytherins have together (except when he's complaining about whatever nasty beast they have to deal with in CoMC) so he can't learn his classmates' names by hearing their names called. The houses are IMO much too isolated from each other. Now if Theo were on the quidditch team, Harry would at least know his name! Koinonia: Well, the stringy-thestral-boy bears a resemblance to Snape and I think there's a reason for that. I just want to know who it is. Carol: Me, too. And I'm hoping that Book 6 will also answer at least *some* of our questions about Snape himself. (At least we know he survives into Book 7!) Carol From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 04:36:56 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 04:36:56 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91678 > Cindy wrote: > > I know there's no canon to support this, but the veil seems like a > method of execution, or maybe even euthanasia. > > Carol: > But my reading is a bit different. We haven't seen > anything like the death penalty in the Potter books. > I think that the veiled archway somehow allows the Unspeakables to > study death--not as a coroner does, to discover the cause of a > particular death, but to study death itself as one of the great > Mysteries (the others being life, time, the mind, and probably love) > that have intrigued philosophers since the time of the Greeks. Annemehr: I just figured the WW was a lot like RL Britain in this regard: they had the death penalty in the not-so-distant past but they don't anymore. Maybe the Unspeakables don't even use the veil to study death anymore for that reason, though anyway it's hard to imagine how they'd do that. I wonder what happens if you stick your hand in and then pull it out? Annemehr who'd rather be executed than dementor-kissed any day From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 05:44:39 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 05:44:39 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91679 Hitomi: Actually, I'm more annoyed that Harry never looked at what Sirius gave him after Christmas. If JKR had had him do so, there never would have been a need to go into Umbridge's office, either time. He just could have talked to Sirius through the mirrors, Kreacher never could have tricked him, and Sirius would probably still be alive. It's always seemed to me to be a strange plot-hole oversight. Sue: I have always been troubled by this as well. When Harry put the mirror away, he vowed never to use it and, evidentally, forgot all about it. Why, when he broke it at the end did he throw it back in his trunk instead of in the trash? Where is James's mirror, we know he had one. I have a feeling the mirror (and perhaps all mirrors in the series) will reappear and Harry will be very glad he has it. It is, of course, in several pieces now. The better to share with others he needs to keep in touch with. Carol: I don't think it's a plot hole. I think it's a deliberate literary device that JKR is quite fond of, situational irony, where the expectations of the reader or a character or both are set up and then thwarted by a very different outcome from the one that's anticipated. A simple, clear-cut example is setting up Harry and the reader to think that Snape is after the sorceror's/philosopher's stone and instead we find Quirrell. This situation is much more complex because it involves the irony of fate (tragic irony) as well. The reader expects Harry to use the mirror, but he has sworn to himself not even to open the package because he doesn't want Sirius to leave Grimmauld Place in some rash and needless attempt to protect Harry from Snape. The fact that Harry does not open it prevents him from using it to discover that Sirius is safe in 12 Grimmauld Place and doesn't need rescuing. So By putting the mirror away *to protect Sirius," he denied himself the opportunity of finding out that Sirius didn't need saving and so he goes to rescue Sirius and, in so doing, unwittingly brings about the tragedy he's trying to prevent (tragic irony or irony of fate, as in "Oedipus Rex"). Then, too late, he discovers the mirror that might have prevented his terrible blunder. This time his expectation, and maybe the reader's, is that he'll see Sirius and talk to him, but instead what he finds (but denies) is confirmation of Sirius's death. I thought it was a very moving moment and underlined the whole idea of how our choices, and our mistakes, have unintended and unanticipated consequences. *If only* he'd at least opened the mirror and known it was there. *If only* he'd used it to talk to Sirius instead of talking to the treacherous Kreacher. But with the mirror as well as the journey to the MoM, he did the wrong thing for the right reason and suffered the consequences of human error. None of that makes further use of the mirror impossible. Maybe it will reappear in other books, but since we've seen that it can't be used to communicate with a dead man, I don't think it will. Carol From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 04:46:16 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 04:46:16 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91680 Pippin theorized: Nope, I'm suggesting that Peter didn't kill Cedric. In any case Cedric couldn't have recognized him. Peter was hooded and Harry himself didn't recognize him until later. I'm suggesting that someone else was in the graveyard. So do we imagine that fumble-fingered Wormtail managed to swish a wand out of his pocket before putting Voldebabe down, or that he put him down and took out the wand, all while Cedric was politely standing there waiting to be murdered? Lounging on the grassy knoll, Eustace_Scrubb offered: Actually, I'd have to say that Wormtail performs pretty well under pressure. He managed to kill all those muggles, frame Sirius for the killings and excise his own finger when he was cornered and then transform himself into a rat. Despite Voldemort's disdain, he did manage to capture Bertha Jorkins. (In fact, our opinion of Wormtail's intelligence and magical skills are primarily derived from sources of questionable value--the three fellow Marauders who treated him badly back in school and Voldemort, who delights in belittling him even as Wormtail performs the excruciating task of rebirthing Voldemort.) I've got no problem imagining him supporting Voldebabe primarily on one arm, with the wand already in the other arm...in fact, I can't imagine that Wormtail and LV would approach Harry Potter without a wand out to start with. Cedric had no time to react because Wormtail was already armed with LV's wand. Pippin again: And look at the wand echoes Eustace_Scrubb again: Well, the whole wand echo scene has been a problem since the first printings allowed James' ghost to precede Lily's. JKR fixed that, but if she and the editors missed something that big, I wonder what other details were also neglected or simply not considered important. Then again, did Wormtail exclusively use LV's wand that night or did he have one of his own? We don't know how or when the wand got into the robe pocket, do we (and of course that could help your case)? But we do know that the robes were within Harry's field of vision the whole time he was tied to the gravestone. He paid close attention to them at first, as his dread of their contents rose. Once Wormtail removed the contents and placed the entity in the cauldron, Harry was less concerned with the robes, but the only time they would have been obscured would have been for the few moments that the steam from the cauldron filled the air. A most stealthy second wandsman it would have been to return the wand to the robe pocket without Harry noticing. I'm guessing (no proof, mind you) that Pettigrew put it in as he was preparing to enrobe the risen Voldemort. I still think Occam would blame Pettigrew. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From inky_quill at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 06:08:19 2004 From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 06:08:19 -0000 Subject: Flitwick or Snape as DADA? In-Reply-To: <24051A3A.52FBB09C.1136A2F8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91681 Adri said: I also think that Snape doesn't really want the DADA job. It's more of a useful cover as a Death Eater if the rest think that he's got a yen for the Dark Arts. The rumor might have had some truth to it when he first began teaching, but Dumbledore, for whatever reason, wouldn't let him take the DADA job. That reason probably was something along the lines of keeping him away from an addiction, like keeping a recovering alcoholic away from a bar. Anyway, I'll be slinking back to lurkdom. Just wanted to give my $.02. Me: I think you have a valid point Adri. What Snape might have wanted 14 or so years ago is not necessarily what he wants now. I tend to agree that the tradition of 'loosing' out on the DADA position is more useful to Snape as misdirection about his true character as Dumbledore's agent and a 'good' guy. While Dumbledore might have initially withheld it as too much of a temptation (if that is in deed the reason), I must point out that Snape substituted at least once for the DADA class. In the third book, he covered for Lupin when it was too close to the full moon and his transformation. So he is not being kept totally away from the class. I wonder with the prejudice against Slytherin as the house from which all dark wizards/Voldemort supporters spring, if its Snape's position as head of Slytherin that is another drawback to his holding the DADA job. While the old saying is that "it takes one to know one" I wonder if there would a feeling of suspicion among parents and the Board of Governors that a Slytherin might not really teach a non- slytherin to 'defend' adequetly. Also, in his role as either spy, as a 'poor looser' Snape would have an excellent reason to keep a critical eye on the previous odd ducks that Dumbledore has appointed to the position. Perhaps a human foe- glass for Dumbledore since as an ex-DE, Snape would be able to recognize any use of dark wizardry by either the revolving cast of DADA professors or by students (or their parents). Julie/Inky From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 09:05:33 2004 From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:05:33 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91682 Hi All, --- HPforGrownups Kristen wrote: > If you could only ask one question, > what would it be? I'd probably want to generate more opportunities for our discussions, rather than close off much loved debates; so I'd ask ... Are there any important characters we haven't yet met? If there are, can you tell us anything about them (e.g. who they are related to, what color eyes they have, etc)? But, if I was in a cheeky mood I might ask ... Has your relationship to your editor changed as you have become increasingly famous? I actually did get the chance to ask JKR a question once. It was in a question-and-answer session she attended at a local school, when I was living in the Pacific Northwest of the USA. It was a few months before the release of OotP. I got a bit tongue-tied, so I only asked her if Snape was a vampire (doh). She smiled and said that we'd be finding out much more about Snape in the next book. The huge downside of this meeting was that it happened in a dream (I know, I should get out more). Strangely, although I am familiar with what JKR looks like, in my dream she was dark haired. Cheers, Dumbledad. From elihufalk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 08:35:44 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 00:35:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question about portkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040226083544.78734.qmail@web21411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91683 sue wrote: In the beginning of GoF (I do not have my book :() Mr. Weasley explains that a portkey is used to transport people at a particular time to another place. As a matter of fact there is a great deal of discussion about the time on Stoteshead Hill, they even counted down. After the QWC, the whole group went to try to get an "early portkey". How is it then, that the portkey in the maze took Cedric and Harry the moment they touched it? Elihu's answer: I think that a portkey can be set to move during a particular time range from one place to an other as soon as someone touches it. The portkey in the maze would then be set to work from the moment the third task started (or a bit earlier) until a time by which it was clear to Crouch Jr. that Harry will have finished the task. Elihu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 09:37:29 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:37:29 -0000 Subject: OOP in russian translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: Some snips... >>Finally OoP in russian is out. :o) .. >>This translation is actually better than they did with other books (maybe because they changed translators), although the fact that they decided to translate some names still hurts my ears. :o) .. >>but there is one thing which made me curious already - when Dumbledore talks to Harry about mysterious force locked in the room and which Harry supposedly has, they actually spelled it out - the retranslation of the sentence sounds something like this " And the name of this force is Love". So, did the translator decide to solve the mystery for us or do they know something we don't? :o) Alla Inge says: I doubt it very much that the translaters know anything more than the readers. I first read OOTP when it came out (English version) and then again when the Danish version came a few months later. (The Danish translator is doing a fantastic job by the way!) Some names have been changed in the books during translation though - and also some other things. Fx. The much discussed Blowing Gum. The Danish translator gave the Blowing Gum a danish name - of which the letters can not in any way be re-arranged or mixed into something that would resemble the well-thought out anagram in English "Gold Bribe Below St. Mungo's". So, I wrote the Danish translator and asked her if she had been aware of that possible anagram as she translated OOTP. She wrote me back and said that translators do NOT get any information from Rowling (or the publisher) so if there are hidden clues (in English) in the books the translators will have to figure that out on their own. Inge From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 26 09:54:39 2004 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:54:39 -0000 Subject: Why not floo .. to London? Belief vs Reality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91685 bboy_mn wrote: << Now the exceptions- We have seen that you can Floo/fire travel with in the castle; Snape calls Lupin to his office using the fire, and once called, Lupin arrives in Snape's office by fire. But travel within the castle would not be much of a security risk. So, that acception seems reasonable.>> Sigune throws in: On the other hand, "Floo-inside-Hogwarts" makes it rather easy, I should think, to break into teachers' offices - or doesn't it? I am just thinking of Snape in GoF, whose office was broken into by Fake! Moody. I can't remember our arriving at any final conclusions about the restrictions of Floo use, but unless these also apply to the fireplaces in teachers' offices, it is odd that there are no more raids on Snape's supply cupboard. Yours severely, Sigune From naama_gat at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 12:32:18 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:32:18 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Yes, that was the interview I thought about. Yes, she was talking > about writing a horrible death, but she is not saying anything about > no coming back for Sirus and him being "properly dead". > > > Pippin, I know about my dellusions, but I'll just stand here in my > wrongness till the end of book 7. :o) > May I have a whack at your delusions? Does it really make sense to you that JKR would be crying about having to kill a character, if she knew he was going to come back from the dead? Would she be talking about how, now that she has written and written the scene, the character is now dead? Meaning, she perceives him as dead? Naama From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 13:49:09 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:49:09 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91687 > Annemehr: > I wonder what happens if you stick your hand in and then > pull it out? > > Annemehr > who'd rather be executed than dementor-kissed any day I have wondered that, too. Is it like a Pensieve? Only the tip of Harry's nose touched the "liquid" and it sucked him in. If you could put in part of your body and pull it out, I wonder what it would look like? For instance, if it was smaller, it could be the WW equivalent to lipo suction! "Abdominal area, 5 galleons. Behind, 7 galleons." Oh, please, make me stop! Julie -- who realizes she shouldn't post before a first cup of coffee! From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 13:59:03 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:59:03 -0000 Subject: A question about portkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91688 > Geoff: > I think with the Stoatshead Hill portkey, it was one of a large > number which were transporting folk to the Quidditch ground at a > specific time and presumably had been "programmed" to operate in that > way. My interpretation was that the portkeys for the Quidditch World Cup had to be "scheduled" so a muggle walking by would not be transported simply by the act of picking up litter. Julie -- whose coffee seems to be working From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Feb 26 14:14:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:14:04 -0000 Subject: was Re: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters now Snape & Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91689 > > > Geoff wrote: > > > Having just looked through the "Boggart in the Wardrobe" chapter, > I > > > can't see this occurrence. The only thing I can find is, where > Lupin > > > takes the class into the Staff Room to see the boggart, Snape > gets up > > > to go and.. > > > > > > "At the doorway he turned on his heel and said, 'Possibly no > one's > > > warned you Lupin, but this class contains Neville Longbottom.'" > > > > > > (POA "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" p.100 UK edition) > > > > > > Full name, not just first name.... Interesting that he didn't say Longbottom or Mr. Longbottom. Snape goes on to say: "I would advise you not entrust him with anything difficult. Not unless Miss Granger is hissing instructions in his ear." "No one's warned you"....."I would advise" "Neville Longbottom." It always seemed like Snape just happened to be there and just taunted Neville for the evil fun of it. But could it be that Snape was waiting there on purpose to warn Lupin about something concerning Neville? Not out of concern for Lupin, but for Neville? And does Granger come into this too? She didn't get a chance at the boggart. Compare this to OotP chapter 32 p746 US version where we know that Snape is helping Neville. (It would be fun to know if it was Neville who was the first to break free!) "And Crabbe, loosen your hold a little, if Longbottom suffocates it will mean a lot of tedious paperwork, and I am afraid I shall have to mention it on your reference if ever you apply for a job." Potioncat (who loves it how un-connected bits come together when you read these posts.) From lizvega2 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 14:45:15 2004 From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:45:15 -0000 Subject: was Re: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters now Snape & Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91690 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > "At the doorway he turned on his heel and said, 'Possibly no > > one's > > > > warned you Lupin, but this class contains Neville Longbottom.'" > > > > > > > > (POA "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" p.100 UK edition) > > > > > > > > Full name, not just first name.... > > Interesting that he didn't say Longbottom or Mr. Longbottom. Snape > goes on to say: > "I would advise you not entrust him with anything difficult. Not > unless Miss Granger is hissing instructions in his ear." > > "No one's warned you"....."I would advise" "Neville Longbottom." It > always seemed like Snape just happened to be there and just taunted > Neville for the evil fun of it. But could it be that Snape was > waiting there on purpose to warn Lupin about something concerning > Neville? Not out of concern for Lupin, but for Neville? And does > Granger come into this too? She didn't get a chance at the boggart. > > Compare this to OotP chapter 32 p746 US version where we know that > Snape is helping Neville. (It would be fun to know if it was Neville > who was the first to break free!) > > "And Crabbe, loosen your hold a little, if Longbottom suffocates it > will mean a lot of tedious paperwork, and I am afraid I shall have > to mention it on your reference if ever you apply for a job." > > > Potioncat (who loves it how un-connected bits come together when you > read these posts.) LizVega here: Interesting! Lupin explains to Harry later that he didn't let him face the boggart because he assumed that Harry would conjure up LV in the classroom- Of course Lupin would know who Harry was, but maybe he didn't know who Neville was, and Snape warned him on his way out because he (Snape) assumed that Neville would conjure up someone being tortured? I bet Snape was torked when he heard that Neville's worst fear was actually him! It seems like Snape though, doesn't it? He made himself highly upopular at Harry's second quidditch match in PS- I'm starting to think that maybe Snape's sour-puss demeanor is just the product of never learning social behavior- one of his memories was of being alone in a dark room shooting at flies! People with so little self- confidence are easy marks for baddies... From entropymail at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 15:40:18 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 15:40:18 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" wrote: > May I have a whack at your delusions? > Does it really make sense to you that JKR would be crying about > having to kill a character, if she knew he was going to come back > from the dead? Would she be talking about how, now that she has > written and written the scene, the character is now dead? Meaning, > she perceives him as dead? I guess it just comes down to how cynical a person you are. Cynical person that I am ;) I believe that JKR might be fudging just a bit in order to get us to believe our eyes rather than our hearts. This theme of "faith in the face of hopelessness" is something I think will become very important in future books. The books seem to point to one thing, and the interviews seem to point us in another direction. Just looking at the books, the signs seem to be all there for Sirius' return. Looking at the interviews, he is truly dead. :: Entropy :: From danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 16:55:17 2004 From: danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com (danielmorgan322) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:55:17 -0000 Subject: was Re: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters now Snape & Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91692 > > LizVega said: > > Interesting! Lupin explains to Harry later that he didn't let him > face the boggart because he assumed that Harry would conjure up LV > in the classroom- Of course Lupin would know who Harry was, but > maybe he didn't know who Neville was, and Snape warned him on his > way out because he (Snape) assumed that Neville would conjure up > someone being tortured? I bet Snape was torked when he heard that > Neville's worst fear was actually him! > > It seems like Snape though, doesn't it? He made himself highly > upopular at Harry's second quidditch match in PS- I'm starting to > think that maybe Snape's sour-puss demeanor is just the product of > never learning social behavior- one of his memories was of being > alone in a dark room shooting at flies! People with so little self- > confidence are easy marks for baddies... Now me: Snape? Little self confidence? Am I reading this completely wrong? Confidence glows off Snape, true from what we know about his past maybe it shouldn't but it does. And Snape being alone in his room shooting spiders, I think that's self inflicted, he thinks he's better than everyone and so doesn't wish to mix with lesser mortals. You make him sound as though he is some kind of weakling, lured by the dark side like Quirrel, I have to disagree. From senderellabrat at aol.com Thu Feb 26 17:17:59 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:17:59 -0000 Subject: A question about portkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91693 > Sue ponders: > > In the beginning of GoF (I do not have my book :() Mr. Weasley > explains that a portkey is used to transport people at a particular > time to another place. As a matter of fact there is a great deal of > discussion about the time on Stoteshead Hill, they even counted > down. After the QWC, the whole group went to try to get an "early > portkey". How is it then, that the portkey in the maze took Cedric > and Harry the moment they touched it? Me: Honestly, I don't think there's anymore to this other than taking a portkey that was scheduled to "leave earlier" than the one they were planning on taking originally. Sort of like us muggles trying to take an early flight if we have to fly somewhere. Remember all of the portkeys were very strictly timed so that they wouldn't draw muggle attention. I think they had the return portkeys already to go in the same way, but considering the events of that night, someone probably had to change them all. They'd still have to be strictly timed to avoid muggle attention again and considering everyone probably wanted to get home ASAP, having the timed portkeys would reduce the mass confusion, possible chaos of everyone leaving at once by the other types of portkeys someone else mentioned in their post. I didn't read too much into this phrase because it's a common one. "I'm going to try to take an early flight to *insert destination here*". Sen From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 17:38:14 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:38:14 -0000 Subject: A question about portkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91694 Snip of a *fabulous* explanation of how portkeys work > So, in situations like this, where you have what might appear to be an > inconsistancy, just do what I do, make something up. > > Just a thought. > > Steve/bboy_mn Thank you ever so much...That is exactly what I will do, make up my own explanations. I'm tired of waiting and hold out little hope that when it is all done JKR will share all of the answers. Unless, of course, she actually writes An Encyclopedia Of HP Universe (we would probably find nagging inconsistancies in that too). Sue, who promises to stop worrying so much about all these little bitty details... From jeanico at securenet.net Thu Feb 26 17:44:03 2004 From: jeanico at securenet.net (jeanico2000) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:44:03 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect... and then some In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91695 My husband has such a great, uncomplicated view of the Potter stories. He's a financial wizard (pardon the pun!) who used to read newspapers and financial journals only until I introducted him to Harry Potter. And while we, in this group, all enjoy picking the books to pieces and wondering about the "why's" and "wherefores", my man just says it as he sees it! (for instance: Hermione belongs with Harry because she's so smart and he's the HERO!). His biggest bone of contention with OOTP so far is not the fact that Ron is a prefect (though he says that, next to Hermione, Harry really deserved that honor), but that Draco Malfoy is a prefect! "What was Dumbledore thinking?" said my spouse... and he's right, IMO. Dumbledore, who is supposed to know his students well, appointed a Slytherin prefect who is a proven bully and who's father is a Death Eater! Were there no other deserving students in Slytherin House? Shame on Dumbledore! (I stopped liking the man after reading OOTP!!!) Just my 2 cents worth. Nicole Who wants book 6 NOW!!! From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 18:17:53 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:17:53 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91696 Snip Lynnette wrote: So while I am grasping at straws, why, after getting > hit "squarely in the chest", did Sirius go flying in a "graceful > arch, down through the veil"? McGonagall got hit in the chest with > multiple stunning spells and didn't get launched flying, soaring or > skittering anywhere. She just got sent to St. Mungo's after > basically falling over, if memory serves me. snip Sue: "No fewer than four stunners had shot from the figures around the cabin toward Professor McGonagall. Halfway between cabin and castle the red beams colided with her. For a moment she looked luminous, illuminated by an eerie red glow, then was lifted right off her feet, landed hard on her back and moved no more." (OotP pg 721 US ed.) I wonder ...Is this description intended to show us what can happen when someone is hit with a *really powerful* stunning spell so that we will recognize the spell when it is cast on Sirius? Or just to make sure we understand that McGonagall is incapacitated and will not be able to help Harry. I think it is very odd that the color is omitted from the description of Bella's attack on Sirius. I am sure there is a reason for it and we will probably hear more about the killing of Sirius Black, maybe from the lovely Bella herself. For the record, I believe: Sirius is dead (big sad tears), Regulus is alive, and that Sirius, Lupin and all of the Weasleys are "good" people (or werewolf, which ever the case may be). Sue From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 18:35:16 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:35:16 -0000 Subject: Let the cat out of the Bag(man) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91697 Snip of previous posts: > > Fran wrote: > I posted sometime ago that Bagman was a DE. Part of it was the forest > scene in GOF, the other part is the wasp that keeps showing up. > Bagman was a Wimbly Wasp and seems to always be wearing his old > quidditch uniform. Snip Oh My! I had never put those two together. I must admit that I had always seen Bagman as a sort of idiot (I've known too many compulsive gamblers), but this particular information is interesting. It seems JKR uses the "he's too stupid to cause any harm" thing quite often. What is it McGonagall says about Peter? Something like "he not in their (Sirius and James) league" obviously she was wrong. I am beginning to think Bagman may well have been in the graveyard. One nagging question though, how many unregistered animagi *are* there? And isn't that whole thing getting a bit old? Sue From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 18:49:35 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:49:35 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91698 Snip of previous posts Snip of Carol's excellent post about the mirror Carol wrote: I thought it was a very moving moment and underlined the whole idea of how our choices, > and our mistakes, have unintended and unanticipated consequences. *If > only* he'd at least opened the mirror and known it was there. *If > only* he'd used it to talk to Sirius instead of talking to the > treacherous Kreacher. But with the mirror as well as the journey to > the MoM, he did the wrong thing for the right reason and suffered the > consequences of human error. > > snip Sue: Another consequence of the same action was that the world now knows Voldemort has returned. As the story goes this is probably the most important consequence of not using the mirror. If Harry had discovered Sirius was safe, he would have known Voldemort was "messing with his head" and would not have gone. We would have another year of "hem hem" and horrid things being said about Harry and Dumbledore. Perhaps then, it could be said that Sirius's life was sacrificed to save the WW and more specifically, those people he cared most about. Not such a bad reason to die, really. Sue From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 19:15:33 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:15:33 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect... and then some In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91699 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeanico2000" wrote: Snip >>Dumbledore, who is supposed to know his students well, appointed a Slytherin prefect who is a proven bully and who's father is a Death Eater! Were there no other deserving students in Slytherin House? Shame on Dumbledore! (I stopped liking the man after reading OOTP!!!) Just my 2 cents worth. Nicole Inge says: Maybe Rowling / Dumbledore do not think that Sins of the Father should be on Draco's shoulders.... I agree with you that Draco is a bully and that it's hard to believe no other Slytherin could've been appointed Prefect. But that is because of who Draco is IMO - and has nothing to do with his father. And maybe Dumbledore knows things about Draco that we don't yet know (or never will) that justifies his making Draco Prefect. After all - we only see Draco through Harry's eyes. Inge From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 19:15:12 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:15:12 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91700 snip > I guess it just comes down to how cynical a person you are. Cynical > person that I am ;) I believe that JKR might be fudging just a bit in > order to get us to believe our eyes rather than our hearts. This theme > of "faith in the face of hopelessness" is something I think will > become very important in future books. > > The books seem to point to one thing, and the interviews seem to point > us in another direction. Just looking at the books, the signs seem to > be all there for Sirius' return. Looking at the interviews, he is > truly dead. > > :: Entropy :: I am going to add to my last post on this one (annoying, I know). In my last post about the mirror I said that another consequence of Harry not using the mirror to contact Sirius and thus going to the MoM, was that the WW is now aware of Voldemort's return. I will add here that Sirius lost his life for a profoundly important reason. One of the things that has always struck me about his character is how tragic his life has been. Here he is, this beautiful 20 something man who loses everything because he is betrayed by a smarmy little friend. And his life ends without ever having a chance to make it "right" for himself. This is, of course, why so many people probably want him to be resurected. In the end I hope his name is cleared and the character it took to go blindly ahead to save someone he cared about and fight evil becomes what people in the WW remember about Sirius Black. Although I do not think Sirius will return, I can certainly see your point...I guess the question we need to ask JKR is for a definition of "properly dead". Please keep your bubble in tact, we all need hope :). Sue From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 19:20:40 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:20:40 -0000 Subject: A question about portkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91701 snip They'd still have to be strictly timed to > avoid muggle attention again and considering everyone probably wanted > to get home ASAP, having the timed portkeys would reduce the mass > confusion, possible chaos of everyone leaving at once by the other > types of portkeys someone else mentioned in their post. I didn't read > too much into this phrase because it's a common one. "I'm going to > try to take an early flight to *insert destination here*". > > Sen It is not that I had trouble understanding the way the portkeys worked at the QWC, it was that there is not consistency across the board with regard to portkeys. The TWC portkey takes them to the graveyard when they touch it not at a specific pre arranged time. Last time I checked, I am not able to touch an airplane and leave. Sue From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Feb 26 20:12:16 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:12:16 -0000 Subject: OOP in russian translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91702 > > > Inge says: >snip< The much discussed Blowing Gum. > The Danish translator gave the Blowing Gum a danish name - of which > the letters can not in any way be re-arranged or mixed into something > that would resemble the well-thought out anagram in English "Gold > Bribe Below St. Mungo's". >snio< This newby is going to wade into dangerous water here. Perhaps this is an issue that has been well discussed, but not too long ago a post asked if there might be meaning to Alice giving Neville the gum wrappers? Many thought it was just a typical sort of behavior for a brain injured person.I don't recall seeing any answers that mentioned this anagram. Ideas from the more experienced crowd? Potioncat From elihufalk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 11:22:19 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 03:22:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP in russian translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040226112219.25573.qmail@web21411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91703 Inge wrote: >I first read OOTP when it came out (English >version) and then again when the Danish version came a >few months later. (The Danish translator is doing a >fantastic job by the way!) >Some names have been changed in the books during >translation though - and also some other things. Fx. The >much discussed Blowing Gum. The Danish translator gave >the Blowing Gum a danish name - of which the letters can >not in any way be re-arranged or mixed into something >that would resemble the well-thought out anagram in >English "Gold Bribe Below St. Mungo's". >So, I wrote the Danish translator and asked her if she >had been aware of that possible anagram as she >translated OOTP. She wrote me back and said that >translators do NOT get any information from Rowling (or >the publisher) so if there are hidden clues (in English) >in the books the translators will have to figure that >out on their own. Elihu's answer: I've read parts of the Hebrew translation to the series, and there are varius mistakes in the translation. For example, the name Sprout was left as is, as opposed to using some version of the Hebrew word for sprout. The same thing exists with Slytherin (slither, like how a snake moves etc.) There are also things that can't realy be translated properly. For example, in the Shrieking Shack, Hermione accuses Lupin of having been Black's friend. Lupin says (I don't have the quote in fromt of me) "I haven't been his friend, but I am now." In English you have many more tenses than in Hebrew. Translate that sentence into Hebrew, and it will be the same as "I wasn't his friend, but I am now" - not true; Lupin was Black's friend at school (as Hermione had somehow figured out). The translater ended up writing "I haven't been his friend for 13 years, but I am now", but what if it took time for the idea of Black being guilty took a while to sink in? 12 years before that statement, would Lupin still have thought of himself as Black's friend? Elihu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 20:28:50 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:28:50 -0000 Subject: A question about portkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91704 Sue wrote: > It is not that I had trouble understanding the way the portkeys > worked at the QWC, it was that there is not consistency across the > board with regard to portkeys. The TWC portkey takes them to the > graveyard when they touch it not at a specific pre arranged time. > Last time I checked, I am not able to touch an airplane and leave. > Ginger attempts a RL parallel: Going with the plane analogy, let's say the QWC was a regular old plane for which you buy a ticket and have a set time of departure. The portkey to and from the graveyard would be like hiring a charter and telling the pilot to wait to take off until you get there and wait to go back until you have reboarded. Obvious flaw: Harry didn't charter the plane, C/M did. Anyway, the portkey from DD's office to #12 is like having your own plane. You just ask if everyone is on board and then take off at will. Hope this makes sense. Ginger, on day 2 of a 3 day bedrest and getting very bored and groggy. From vam0609 at aol.com Thu Feb 26 16:41:41 2004 From: vam0609 at aol.com (kuligkutig) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:41:41 -0000 Subject: was Re: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters now Snape & Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91705 Potioncat: > It always seemed like Snape just happened to be there and just taunted > Neville for the evil fun of it. But could it be that Snape was > waiting there on purpose to warn Lupin about something concerning > Neville? Not out of concern for Lupin, but for Neville? me (vampire): After reading this part of your post something just suddenly popped into my head. We know that boggart will take the appearance of anything a person fear the most and at that point nobody knows what Neville fear the most. Maybe Snape was trying to remind Lupin that Neville's boggart might take the appearance of one of those who tortured his parents or maybe even Voldemort. If it is Voldything then pandemonium will break out in class. If it is one of the Lestranges, I can't see why it's a concern. But what if Snape and Lupin knows somebody who is pretending to be a good guy, who was the lead torturer of Neville's parents then it's a concern for both Snape and Lupin that Neville's bogart might take the appearance of that person whose good guy image the 2 are trying to protect. This then will prove the 2 are ESE. It could also mean that the 2 professors are really good guys and they are trying to protect the image of a reformed person who is now helping the good guys. Or they are trying to protect the image of a dead person whose son is the only hope they have to defeat Voldything, Lily or James? Who knows who Neville's bogart will change into before it happened. Maybe that's why Lupin asked Neville first who he feared the most in the guise of guiding Neville how to fight the boggart but in reality he just want to make sure that nobody he's trying to protect will suddenly make an appearance as the boggart. Just imagine yourself in that class, when Lupin released the boggart and it changes to, let say Professor Flitwick, wouldn't you be asking yourself why him? Knowing Hermione she will launch an investigation why Neville fear Flitwick the most until she discovers that there is a big cover-up with the Longbottom torture case. I hope I explained my point clearly. Im in the office and I can't organize my thought properly cause a lot of people keep on passing by my cube. vampire, i will go back to work now to earn some galleons. From sharon8880 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 17:55:55 2004 From: sharon8880 at yahoo.com (sharon) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:55:55 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91706 Sue said: I had always > believed Kreature was tied to the house. He did not leave when Mrs. > Black died, he just stayed in the house and answered the demands of a > crazy portrait. I think if he was able to go to work for Narcissa he > would have done so when Mrs. Black died and everyone else was in > Azkaban. It seems more likely to me that "his adored Bellatrix" will > try to find #12 and move her escaped clan in there. > > Just my thoughts. Sharon replies: That's a very interesting thought about Bellatrix trying to move some DEs into #12. With her assumption that the house is now vacant, it may seem to her to be the perfect hideout. Or will it become a battle front if the DEs discover the OOP there? From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Feb 26 20:47:55 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:47:55 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > Pippin theorized: > > Nope, I'm suggesting that Peter didn't kill Cedric. In any case > Cedric couldn't have recognized him. Peter was hooded and > Harry himself didn't recognize him until later. I'm suggesting that > someone else was in the graveyard. > > > So do we imagine that fumble-fingered Wormtail managed > to swish a wand out of his pocket before putting Voldebabe > down, or that he put him down and took out the wand, all while > Cedric was politely standing there waiting to be murdered? > > Lounging on the grassy knoll, Eustace_Scrubb offered: > > Actually, I'd have to say that Wormtail performs pretty well under pressure. He managed to kill all those muggles, frame Sirius for the killings and excise his own finger when he was cornered and then transform himself into a rat.< Pippin stretches out on the knoll: Ahhh, now we're on firmer ground. The conspiracy to frame Sirius is canon. There was information that Sirius was Voldemort's most devoted servant, prepared to out himself as Voldemort's second-in-command. Peter, in hiding or on the lam, could not have spread this rumor on his own. The DE's in Azkaban knew that Peter, not Sirius, betrayed the Potters. And they were very, very sure that Peter was dead. Which is odd, but we'll get to that in a moment. First let's think about what would have happened if Voldemort hadn't met his downfall in Godric's Hollow. How was the conspiracy to play out? Any plan to discredit Black must also encompass a plan to silence Peter. He's the only one who can prove that Black is innocent. That's a huge liability for Voldemort. Peter must not remain alive to face questioning by Dumbledore and the aurors. If Peter was to fake his death and go into hiding, he wouldn't be much use as a double agent anymore, in which case why bother framing Sirius at all? Answer: there's another double agent and Peter is expendable. Now I agree, Peter is not quite the fool everyone takes him for. He knows that as soon as he's played out his part, he's toast. He's been told to let Black catch up with him in a crowded place, shout "Lily and James, how could you?" and kill Black. Little Peter, the hero, Order of Merlin, first class. But he guesses the real plan will be for someone to make it look like Black killed *him*. Peter foils the plan by cutting off his finger (he could have done that *before* he let Black catch up with him) and transforming into a rat. The curse which was intended to destroy him misses and disposes of twelve unfortunate Muggles instead. Sirius thinks Peter did it, holding a wand behind his back. But that means Sirius couldn't have seen it. According to the Muggle witnesses, Peter never got his wand out at all. So once again a curse comes out of nowhere. We must consider the possibility of another wandsman, or perhaps someone who is skilled enough to fire a curse without using a wand at all. Now the DE's in Azkaban know that Sirius didn't betray the Potters. They know that Sirius wasn't one of them, and Voldemort never taught him any tricks, like how to kill twelve people with one spell. So how can they be sure Peter's dead--unless one of their own did it? Eustace: > Despite Voldemort's disdain, he did manage to capture Bertha Jorkins. (In fact, our opinion of Wormtail's intelligence and magical skills are primarily derived from sources of questionable value--the three fellow Marauders who treated him badly back in school and Voldemort, who delights in belittling him even as Wormtail performs the excruciating task of rebirthing Voldemort.) << Pippin: Not quite. Neither Flitwick nor Hagrid contradicts McGonagall when she says that Peter was hopeless at dueling and not in a class with the other two talent-wise. And we've seen for ourselves how much Peter envied James's physical coordination. > Eustace_Scrubb again: > > Well, the whole wand echo scene has been a problem since the first printings allowed James' ghost to precede Lily's. JKR fixed that, but if she and the editors missed something that big, I wonder what otherdetails were also neglected or simply not considered important.<< Pippin: Well, that's the strange thing the dog did in the night, isn't it? Usually JKR admits her Flints with cheerful chagrin. She's acknowledged that she once thought boa constrictors were poisonous, that ancestor/descendant was a muddle, that good ole Marcus spent an extra year at Hogwarts. But the wand order correction was made stealthily, and many people felt that the original passage was stronger. So why not just apologize openly or else write the mistake into the story somehow? The consensus on the list was that priori incantatem will be referred to again, and it will be important for it to operate as originally described. And of course JKR said there was a huge clue on that page. It wasn't the James Lily swap. So what was it? Eustace: >the only time {the robes] would have been obscured would have been for the few moments that the steam from the > cauldron filled the air. Pippin: And for the moments before that, when the sparks were so bright that they turned all else to velvety blackness. Eustace: > A most stealthy second wandsman it would have been to return the wand to the robe pocket without Harry noticing. I'm guessing (no proof, mind you) that Pettigrew put it in as he was preparing to enrobe the risen Voldemort.< Pippin: Harry can only see what's directly in front of him. If I was Voldemort, I'd want somebody on Pettigrew like ugly on a Troll until the rebirthing spell was completed and Pettigrew's job was done. My theory is that once Voldemort was safely in the cauldron, our stealthy second wandsman darted in and put the wand in the pocket. As you say, it had to get there sometime. According to your theory Peter would have to pick up the robes with one hand, and with the same hand, manage to get the wand into the pocket unnoticed. Quite a feat! Eustace: > I still think Occam would blame Pettigrew.< Good. I'd hate to think I was giving it all away . Pippin "The truth is out there. The lies are inside your head"--Terry Pratchett From TonyaMinton at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 21:12:54 2004 From: TonyaMinton at hotmail.com (tonyaminton) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:12:54 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91708 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" SNIP>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry for that.... > Pippin stretches out on the knoll: > Ahhh, now we're on firmer ground. The conspiracy to frame > Sirius is canon. There was information that Sirius was > Voldemort's most devoted servant, prepared to out himself as > Voldemort's second-in-command. Peter, in hiding or on the lam, > could not have spread this rumor on his own. The DE's in > Azkaban knew that Peter, not Sirius, betrayed the Potters. And > they were very, very sure that Peter was dead. Which is odd, but > we'll get to that in a moment. > > First let's think about what would have happened if Voldemort > hadn't met his downfall in Godric's Hollow. How was the > conspiracy to play out? Any plan to discredit Black must also > encompass a plan to silence Peter. He's the only one who can > prove that Black is innocent. That's a huge liability for Voldemort. > Peter must not remain alive to face questioning by Dumbledore > and the aurors. If Peter was to fake his death and go into hiding, > he wouldn't be much use as a double agent anymore, in which > case why bother framing Sirius at all? Answer: there's another > double agent and Peter is expendable. > > Now I agree, Peter is not quite the fool everyone takes him for. > He knows that as soon as he's played out his part, he's toast. > He's been told to let Black catch up with him in a crowded place, > shout "Lily and James, how could you?" and kill Black. Little > Peter, the hero, Order of Merlin, first class. But he guesses the > real plan will be for someone to make it look like Black killed > *him*. Peter foils the plan by cutting off his finger (he could have > done that *before* he let Black catch up with him) and > transforming into a rat. The curse which was intended to destroy > him misses and disposes of twelve unfortunate Muggles > instead. > > Sirius thinks Peter did it, holding a wand behind his back. But > that means Sirius couldn't have seen it. According to the Muggle > witnesses, Peter never got his wand out at all. So once again a > curse comes out of nowhere. We must consider the possibility of > another wandsman, or perhaps someone who is skilled enough > to fire a curse without using a wand at all. > > Now the DE's in Azkaban know that Sirius didn't betray the > Potters. They know that Sirius wasn't one of them, and Voldemort > never taught him any tricks, like how to kill twelve people with > one spell. So how can they be sure Peter's dead--unless one of > their own did it? > > Eustace: > > Despite Voldemort's disdain, he did manage to capture Bertha > Jorkins. (In fact, our opinion of Wormtail's intelligence and > magical skills are primarily derived from sources of > questionable value--the three fellow Marauders who treated him > badly back in school and Voldemort, who delights in belittling > him even as Wormtail performs the excruciating task of > rebirthing Voldemort.) << > > Pippin: > Not quite. Neither Flitwick nor Hagrid contradicts McGonagall > when she says that Peter was hopeless at dueling and not in a > class with the other two talent-wise. And we've seen for > ourselves how much Peter envied James's physical > coordination. > > > Eustace_Scrubb again: > > > > Well, the whole wand echo scene has been a problem since > the first printings allowed James' ghost to precede Lily's. JKR > fixed that, but if she and the editors missed something that big, I > wonder what otherdetails were also neglected or simply not > considered important.<< > > Pippin: > Well, that's the strange thing the dog did in the night, isn't it? > Usually JKR admits her Flints with cheerful chagrin. She's > acknowledged that she once thought boa constrictors were > poisonous, that ancestor/descendant was a muddle, that good > ole Marcus spent an extra year at Hogwarts. But the wand order > correction was made stealthily, and many people felt that the > original passage was stronger. So why not just apologize openly > or else write the mistake into the story somehow? > > The consensus on the list was that priori incantatem will be > referred to again, and it will be important for it to operate as > originally described. And of course JKR said there was a huge > clue on that page. It wasn't the James Lily swap. So what was it? > > Eustace: > >the only time {the robes] would have been obscured would > have been for the few moments that the steam from the > > cauldron filled the air. > > Pippin: > And for the moments before that, when the sparks were so bright > that they turned all else to velvety blackness. > > Eustace: > > A most stealthy second wandsman it would have been to > return the wand to the robe pocket without Harry > noticing. I'm guessing (no proof, mind you) that Pettigrew put it > in as he was preparing to enrobe the risen Voldemort.< > > Pippin: > Harry can only see what's directly in front of him. If I was > Voldemort, I'd want somebody on Pettigrew like ugly on a Troll > until the rebirthing spell was completed and Pettigrew's job was > done. My theory is that once Voldemort was safely in the > cauldron, our stealthy second wandsman darted in and put the > wand in the pocket. As you say, it had to get there sometime. > According to your theory Peter would have to pick up the robes > with one hand, and with the same hand, manage to get the wand > into the pocket unnoticed. Quite a feat! > > Eustace: > > I still think Occam would blame Pettigrew.< > > Good. I'd hate to think I was giving it all away . > > Pippin > "The truth is out there. The lies are inside your head"--Terry > Pratchett Now Tonya--- WOW Pippen--- What a great post!! I am totally convinced. Everything makes sense to me. I was really looking for anything that didn't add up but your theory is good!! SO, I wonder how long it took you to come up with that?? Where did the theory come from?? If this were all true then where do YOU think that JKR is taking us?? Who could be the traitor?? and WHY?? Please Pippen do go on!! Tonya (I have really enjoyed this whole thread!!) From ryanweasley at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 20:30:53 2004 From: ryanweasley at yahoo.com (ryanweasley) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:30:53 -0000 Subject: A question about portkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91709 > It is not that I had trouble understanding the way the portkeys > worked at the QWC, it was that there is not consistency across the > board with regard to portkeys. The TWC portkey takes them to the > graveyard when they touch it not at a specific pre arranged time. > Last time I checked, I am not able to touch an airplane and leave. > > Sue First of all... Hello, I'm an American Weasley with too much free time on my hands. That out of the way... I think that portkeys can be set up too be used in different ways depending on the need. (ie. at a specific time or activated when touched.) Just a thought. "Ahh, another Weasley, I know just what to do with you..." -RyanWeasley From slytherin501 at yahoo.es Thu Feb 26 20:56:53 2004 From: slytherin501 at yahoo.es (Sembei Grindelwald) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:56:53 -0000 Subject: Back in Black (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91710 Let's give another twist to this idea of Faking Sirius' Death: Someone (in the 6th or 7th book) goes back in time, transforms the Veil into a portkey and brings back Sirius. Since he is believed dead, he can participate in the fight somehow. Remember Harry believes he has heard Ron. Maybe they [he?] were there at the time, under the invisible cape. I am tempted to call all these theories "Back in Black", like the ACDC song. (What sort of music will Stubby Boardman do? Mmmm... Black has a motorcycle... Maybe a Harley?) :)) I agree with the theory that Regulus is alive. "The Black Animagus" seems to imply there is another Black that is not animagus. Maybe that is why Voldy made Bellatrix shut up: they might have faked his death to spy the other side, maybe in Hogwarts or in Gryffindor. Remember that the Regulus star is in the Leo constellation. By the way, in Sirius' house there is furniture with legs in form of claws, like in DD's headmaster room. Do you think it might mean something? Also it has also called to my attention the fact that that room had a griffon-shaped knocker, which in the film was exagerated with the statue. Ideas? -- Sembei (who wants to thank Grey Wolf and Dicey Elf the help :) From ryanweasley at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 21:06:44 2004 From: ryanweasley at yahoo.com (ryanweasley) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:06:44 -0000 Subject: Time turner question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91711 I was just wondering... I understand how a time turner is supposed to work but, how were Hermione and Harry able to use theirs toward the end of POA to go back and rescue Sirius? (as well as themselves) There was no way that they could have escaped the Dementors to even have a future to travel back from. And yet they did? I'm sorry if this has been explained or if no one understands what I'm even asking but it is really bugging me. Someboby help! "...No need to tell me your name. Red hair, and a hand-me-down robe... You must be a Weasley." -RyanWeasley From t.forch at mail.dk Thu Feb 26 21:33:34 2004 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:33:34 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time turner question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040226223143.02b42910@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 91712 At 21:06 26-02-04 +0000, ryanweasley wrote: >I was just wondering... I understand how a time turner is supposed to >work but, >Someboby help! My explanation: HTH ;-) /Troels From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Feb 26 21:52:09 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:52:09 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) References: <1077742009.9051.72046.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c3fcb2$c9292140$5c4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 91713 Kneasy mused: > I do like the idea of someone else in the graveyard though. > Now who do we know who wasn't at the TWT, didn't have their own wand > and would be instantly recognisable to all in the WW? > > Who else but Sirius. > He was responsible for the cock-up at Godrics Hollow. Just one small thing to be explained to support this one, and that's the fact that Sirius could perfectly easily have put himself in the clear right at the outset. Hagrid emerges from the wreckage having rescued Harry. Sirius now appears on his bike, hotfoot from discovering that Peter has gone AWOL. They talk, argue about who should take Harry, and then go their separate ways: Hagrid and Harry to go into limbo for 24 hours and Sirius to pursue Peter. So. Why doesn't Sirius explain to Hagrid that Peter was the secret keeper and the traitor? If he had, then he'd be in the clear and there'd be no question of Azkaban. Peter would have found it impossible to frame Sirius and disappear to commune with his rodent side for the next 10 years, and the Dark Lord's return would have been made that much more difficult. Sirius really does bring it all on himself, don't you think? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Feb 26 22:23:48 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:23:48 -0000 Subject: Time turner question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ryanweasley" wrote: RyanWeasley: > "...No need to tell me your name. Red hair, and a hand-me-down > robe... You must be a Weasley." -RyanWeasley Geoff: You are the "missing" Weasley and I claim my ?5.00. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 22:25:41 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:25:41 -0000 Subject: Why not floo .. to London? Belief vs Reality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" wrote: > bboy_mn wrote: > > << Now the exceptions- > We have seen that you can Floo/fire travel with in the castle; Snape > calls Lupin to his office using the fire, and once called, Lupin > arrives in Snape's office by fire. But travel within the castle > would not be much of a security risk. So, that acception seems > reasonable.>> > > > Sigune throws in: > On the other hand, "Floo-inside-Hogwarts" makes it rather easy, I > should think, to break into teachers' offices - or doesn't it? I am > just thinking of Snape in GoF, whose office was broken into by Fake! > Moody. > > I can't remember our arriving at any final conclusions about the > restrictions of Floo use, but unless these also apply to the > fireplaces in teachers' offices, it is odd that there are no more > raids on Snape's supply cupboard. > > Yours severely, > > Sigune bboy_mn: Again I refer you to my modified subject heading - Belief vs Reality, and ammend it by saying that what we believe is not always real. We believe our homes are safe because we closed the windows and locked the doors, but the truth is, the security of our homes is as fragile as a piece of glass, because that is all that truly stands between a robber and his entrance to our home; one thin fragile piece of glass. Now back to the fictional world- What's that old saying? ... ah yes, 'never tickle a sleeping dragon'. It's true a student could break into McGonagal's or Snape's office by using the fireplace, but who would be so suicidal that they would dare do such a thing. Well, Fake!Moody would, but let's face it, he's not exactly dealing with a full deck. Plus, you need to consider the 'leaving' fireplace; they arrive at Snape's fireplace, but what fireplace do they leave from? Possibly the Common Room fireplace but that's not exactly in a private area. In addition, we don't see any Floo Powder in the Common Room. Students insane enough to break into Snape's office, still need a source of Floo powder. Of course, Floo powder isn't that hard to come by, the Weasley's and presumably most other wizard families have it at home, but I don't think a student would plan something like this months in advance. Doing something as nuts a breaking into Snape's office seem more like an impulsive spur of the moment type of thing. So, yes, any student willing to risk months worth of heinous detentions and the rath of Snape could easily break into his office. But who would be so foolhardy? Just a thought. bboy_mn From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Feb 26 22:32:51 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:32:51 -0000 Subject: Why not floo .. to London? Belief vs Reality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91716 > > bboy_mn wrote: > > > > << Now the exceptions- > > We have seen that you can Floo/fire travel with in the castle; Snape > > calls Lupin to his office using the fire, and once called, Lupin > > arrives in Snape's office by fire. But travel within the castle > > would not be much of a security risk. So, that acception seems > > reasonable.>> > > Oops! I snipped the part that asks the question about breaking into Snape's office. I think the key here is that Snape called Lupin to his office. It could be a one way deal. Notice, Lupin and the boys didn't floo back to Lupin's office. No one was there to call them. Potioncat From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 22:43:41 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:43:41 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron as prefect... and then some Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91717 jeanico2000 says: >His biggest bone >of contention with OOTP so far is not the fact that Ron is a prefect >(though he says that, next to Hermione, Harry really deserved that >honor), but that Draco Malfoy is a prefect! "What was Dumbledore >thinking?" said my spouse... and he's right, IMO. Dumbledore, who is >supposed to know his students well, appointed a Slytherin prefect >who is a proven bully and who's father is a Death Eater! Were there >no other deserving students in Slytherin House? Shame on Dumbledore! I think Malfoy was a prefect for several reasons. 1) Dumbledore would not penalize Malfoy because his father was a Death Eater, but only for the faults of Draco himself (which I admit are manifold, but keep reading). 2) Descriptions of the choice of prefects by Lupin and others seem to indicate that the job will be given to someone who is a) academically at least competent, b) does not have a history of chronic troublemaking and c) has a chance of keeping order. The only Slytherin student we have seen so far who fulfills all three of these requirements is Draco. Crabbe and Goyle each have three brain cells out looking for a fourth for bridge. Pansy Parkinson is probably not much brighter and doesn't appear to have much influence. Yes, *we* know Malfoy is a bully, and I'm sure so do Dumbledore and Snape, but Dumbledore probably figures it's still better than any of the alternatives, and Snape probably doesn't care. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 23:04:48 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:04:48 -0000 Subject: Time turner question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ryanweasley" wrote: > I was just wondering... how were Hermione and Harry able to use > theirs (TimeTurner) toward the end of POA to go back and rescue > Sirius? (as well as themselves) > > There was no way that they could have escaped the Dementors to even > have a future to travel back from. And yet they did? ... Someboby > help! > > -RyanWeasley bboy_mn: This question has been asked and discussed many times. The short version is that this massive unresolvable time paradox only occurs if you assume Time happened twice. If you take the path that time only happens once, and there are indications that that's what JKR intended, then life gets simpler. Time Traveling Harry and Hermione were always there, there is no first time and second time. Harry, Hermione, and Ron go down to the entrance hall and hide in a cupboard waiting until the coast is clear, while they are in the cupboard, the second/TimeTraveling Harry and Hermione appear in the entrance hall and are heard by Harry/Ron/Hermione. TimeTravel!Harry&Hermione hide in their own cupboard, then the Trio leaves and they are heard by the TimeTraveling Harry and Hermione. After H/R/H leave TT!H/H leave. Conclusion, if time only happens once, as time seems to do, then everybody was always there. Just a thought. bboy_mn From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Feb 26 23:49:20 2004 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:49:20 -0000 Subject: Time turner question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91719 Ryan Weasley asked: > I was just wondering... I understand how a time turner is supposed to > work but, how were Hermione and Harry able to use theirs toward the > end of POA to go back and rescue Sirius? (as well as themselves) > There was no way that they could have escaped the Dementors to even > have a future to travel back from. And yet they did? I'm sorry if > this has been explained or if no one understands what I'm even asking > but it is really bugging me. Someboby help! Ah, the logic of time travel. The posts "Time Travel- it's narrative function" (79045) and "Time, Repetition, and the Uber-Dimension" (79045) and the replies to these cover the topic pretty thoroughly, including the opposing views on the dimensions and repetitions of time. My own thoughts are presented in 79043. Really short version of my theory: yes, they did escape the Dementors a first time, but later altered those events so that the original escape is not a part of the dimension of time in which the books take place. - Corinth From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Feb 26 23:50:56 2004 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:50:56 -0000 Subject: Time turner question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91720 > The posts "Time Travel- it's narrative function" (79045) and "Time, > Repetition, and the Uber-Dimension" (79045) oops, that second one should have been 79635 - Corinth From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Feb 26 23:55:33 2004 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:55:33 -0000 Subject: Time turner question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91721 I wrote: > Ah, the logic of time travel. > > The posts "Time Travel- it's narrative function" (79045) and "Time, > Repetition, and the Uber-Dimension" (79045) and the replies to these > cover the topic pretty thoroughly, including the opposing views on the > dimensions and repetitions of time. > > My own thoughts are presented in 79043. Oh, !@#$%, I'll stop while I'm behind. Correct numbers: "Time travel- it's narrative function" - post 79043 "Time, Repetition, and the Uber-Dimension" - post 79635 my thoughts - post 79924 -Corinth, who has been working with too many numbers today From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Feb 27 01:11:27 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 01:11:27 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > Pippin theorized: > > Nope, I'm suggesting that Peter didn't kill Cedric. In any case > Cedric couldn't have recognized him. Peter was hooded and > Harry himself didn't recognize him until later. I'm suggesting that > someone else was in the graveyard. > > > So do we imagine that fumble-fingered Wormtail managed > to swish a wand out of his pocket before putting Voldebabe > down, or that he put him down and took out the wand, all while > Cedric was politely standing there waiting to be murdered? > > Lounging on the grassy knoll, Eustace_Scrubb offered: > > Actually, I'd have to say that Wormtail performs pretty well under pressure. He managed to kill all those muggles, frame Sirius for the killings and excise his own finger when he was cornered and then transform himself into a rat.< Pippin stretches out on the knoll: Ahhh, now we're on firmer ground. The conspiracy to frame Sirius is canon. There was information that Sirius was Voldemort's most devoted servant, prepared to out himself as Voldemort's second-in-command. Peter, in hiding or on the lam, could not have spread this rumor on his own. The DE's in Azkaban knew that Peter, not Sirius, betrayed the Potters. And they were very, very sure that Peter was dead. Which is odd, but we'll get to that in a moment. First let's think about what would have happened if Voldemort hadn't met his downfall in Godric's Hollow. How was the conspiracy to play out? Any plan to discredit Black must also encompass a plan to silence Peter. He's the only one who can prove that Black is innocent. That's a huge liability for Voldemort. Peter must not remain alive to face questioning by Dumbledore and the aurors. If Peter was to fake his death and go into hiding, he wouldn't be much use as a double agent anymore, in which case why bother framing Sirius at all? Answer: there's another double agent and Peter is expendable. Now I agree, Peter is not quite the fool everyone takes him for. He knows that as soon as he's played out his part, he's toast. He's been told to let Black catch up with him in a crowded place, shout "Lily and James, how could you?" and kill Black. Little Peter, the hero, Order of Merlin, first class. But he guesses the real plan will be for someone to make it look like Black killed *him*. Peter foils the plan by cutting off his finger (he could have done that *before* he let Black catch up with him) and transforming into a rat. The curse which was intended to destroy him misses and disposes of twelve unfortunate Muggles instead. Sirius thinks Peter did it, holding a wand behind his back. But that means Sirius couldn't have seen it. According to the Muggle witnesses, Peter never got his wand out at all. So once again a curse comes out of nowhere. We must consider the possibility of another wandsman, or perhaps someone who is skilled enough to fire a curse without using a wand at all. Now the DE's in Azkaban know that Sirius didn't betray the Potters. They know that Sirius wasn't one of them, and Voldemort never taught him any tricks, like how to kill twelve people with one spell. So how can they be sure Peter's dead--unless one of their own did it? Eustace: > Despite Voldemort's disdain, he did manage to capture Bertha Jorkins. (In fact, our opinion of Wormtail's intelligence and magical skills are primarily derived from sources of questionable value--the three fellow Marauders who treated him badly back in school and Voldemort, who delights in belittling him even as Wormtail performs the excruciating task of rebirthing Voldemort.) << Pippin: Not quite. Neither Flitwick nor Hagrid contradicts McGonagall when she says that Peter was hopeless at dueling and not in a class with the other two talent-wise. And we've seen for ourselves how much Peter envied James's physical coordination. > Eustace_Scrubb again: > > Well, the whole wand echo scene has been a problem since the first printings allowed James' ghost to precede Lily's. JKR fixed that, but if she and the editors missed something that big, I wonder what otherdetails were also neglected or simply not considered important.<< Pippin: Well, that's the strange thing the dog did in the night, isn't it? Usually JKR admits her Flints with cheerful chagrin. She's acknowledged that she once thought boa constrictors were poisonous, that ancestor/descendant was a muddle, that good ole Marcus spent an extra year at Hogwarts. But the wand order correction was made stealthily, and many people felt that the original passage was stronger. So why not just apologize openly or else write the mistake into the story somehow? The consensus on the list was that priori incantatem will be referred to again, and it will be important for it to operate as originally described. And of course JKR said there was a huge clue on that page. It wasn't the James Lily swap. So what was it? Eustace: >the only time {the robes] would have been obscured would have been for the few moments that the steam from the > cauldron filled the air. Pippin: And for the moments before that, when the sparks were so bright that they turned all else to velvety blackness. Eustace: > A most stealthy second wandsman it would have been to return the wand to the robe pocket without Harry noticing. I'm guessing (no proof, mind you) that Pettigrew put it in as he was preparing to enrobe the risen Voldemort.< Pippin: Harry can only see what's directly in front of him. If I was Voldemort, I'd want somebody on Pettigrew like ugly on a Troll until the rebirthing spell was completed and Pettigrew's job was done. My theory is that once Voldemort was safely in the cauldron, our stealthy second wandsman darted in and put the wand in the pocket. As you say, it had to get there sometime. According to your theory Peter would have to pick up the robes with one hand, and with the same hand, manage to get the wand into the pocket unnoticed. Quite a feat! Eustace: > I still think Occam would blame Pettigrew.< Good. I'd hate to think I was giving it all away . Pippin "The truth is out there. The lies are inside your head"--Terry Pratchett From artcase at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 02:17:47 2004 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 02:17:47 -0000 Subject: OOP in russian translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: ...snipped... > This newby is going to wade into dangerous water here. Perhaps this > is an issue that has been well discussed, but not too long ago a post > asked if there might be meaning to Alice giving Neville the gum > wrappers? Many thought it was just a typical sort of behavior for a > brain injured person.I don't recall seeing any answers that mentioned > this anagram. > > Ideas from the more experienced crowd? > > Potioncat I'm not indoctrinated to the experienced crowd, but have a couple of theories about the gum wrappers. 1) Alice is giving them to Neville to reinforce the memory spell inflicted upon him so he doesn't suffer so much from the memory of his parents being tortured. 2) Alice gives him the wrappers hoping they break the memory spell his grandmother is placing on him 3) Alice wants him to join them together and wrap them around his head to protect his brain from alien voices... (ok, that's the tortured to insanity version... hem hem) Art From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Fri Feb 27 03:23:43 2004 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 03:23:43 -0000 Subject: Time turner question In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040226223143.02b42910@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91724 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > > > HTH ;-) > > /Troels Bobby: I read your explanation and I like that you can explain the book without appeal to the ideas that time repeats itself or that time-travelers can change history. But I still do not understand the Patronus problem. "Old Harry" sees the Patronus and so "Time-Traveling Harry" can later remember that he can produce it. "I knew I could do it this time because I'd already done it." But neither Old Harry or Time-Traveling Harry had done it before. The two Harrys just see the same event from different perspectives. The Patronus was produced only once. So it's not clear why Time-Traveling Harry should now have any "more" confidence that he can do it based on what Old Harry saw. But in any case, my bigger problem is that JKR is that only physicist in the Potterverse, and what she says goes. If she says that time-travelers can change history -- by killing their former selves -- then time-travelers can change history. (This leads to my objections to time-travel as a plot device in the Book 7 that I stated in a post a month ago.) And desparating arguing that Hermione was mistaken in what she said to Harry or that the Ministry of Magic told McGonagall to lie to Hermione to keep her from abusing time-travel (I've read that elsewhere) doesn't change that fact. From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 03:41:53 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 03:41:53 -0000 Subject: OOP in russian translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91725 snip of other gum wrapper posts: > theories about the gum wrappers. > 1) Alice is giving them to Neville to reinforce the memory spell > inflicted upon him so he doesn't suffer so much from the memory of > his parents being tortured. > 2) Alice gives him the wrappers hoping they break the memory spell > his grandmother is placing on him > 3) Alice wants him to join them together and wrap them around his > head to protect his brain from alien voices... (ok, that's the > tortured to insanity version... hem hem) > > Art I like your idea about the wrappers being used to try to trigger something in Neville. The only problem with the theories is with Alice Longbottom herself. If she is lucid enough to give the gum wrappers then why isn't she lucid enough to tell Neville what she wants him to know? I agree there is something about the gum wrappers, other than a plot device for getting Alice over to where HRH & G could see Neville's mother up close. It is just the kind of thing JKR throws in. I wonder though if it is something Alice is trying to remember that compells her to keep the wrappers and pass them to someone who she thinks might be able to help her instead of the other way around. Since lovely Bella loves to taunt so much, maybe she will spill the beans about what happened that day 15 years ago and enlighten us on the importance of the gum wrappers. As a side note, Bella's reaction to seeing Neville kind of dumps water on the whole "Neville was there" theory as she probably would have said something charming like "I haven't seen you since the day I spent with your parents" if she had seen him as a baby. Hem hem...I like the alien version too. Sue From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 04:35:59 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:35:59 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect... and then some In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > > Inge says: > Maybe Rowling / Dumbledore do not think that Sins of the Father > should be on Draco's shoulders.... > I agree with you that Draco is a bully and that it's hard to believe > no other Slytherin could've been appointed Prefect. But that is > because of who Draco is IMO - and has nothing to do with his father. > And maybe Dumbledore knows things about Draco that we don't yet know > (or never will) that justifies his making Draco Prefect. After all - > we only see Draco through Harry's eyes. > > Inge Personally I think that Draco was appointed a prefect for the only reason that Dumbledore wanted to keep him visible. I don't know less chance for him plotting conspiracies... I find it very hard to believe that Dumbledore thinks that Draco is really capable of setting ANY kind of example for younger students. We only see Draco through Harry's eyes, that is true, but we not only hear Harry's impressions of Draco, we also see Draco's actions and him spatting "mudblood" is, IMO, impossible, to justify. Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 05:05:55 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 05:05:55 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect... and then some In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeanico2000" wrote: > My husband has such a great, uncomplicated view of the Potter > stories. He's a financial wizard (pardon the pun!) who used to read > newspapers and financial journals only until I introducted him to > Harry Potter. And while we, in this group, all enjoy picking the > books to pieces and wondering about the "why's" and "wherefores", my > man just says it as he sees it! (for instance: Hermione belongs with > Harry because she's so smart and he's the HERO!). His biggest bone > of contention with OOTP so far is not the fact that Ron is a prefect > (though he says that, next to Hermione, Harry really deserved that > honor), but that Draco Malfoy is a prefect! "What was Dumbledore > thinking?" said my spouse... and he's right, IMO. Dumbledore, who is > supposed to know his students well, appointed a Slytherin prefect > who is a proven bully and who's father is a Death Eater! Were there > no other deserving students in Slytherin House? Shame on Dumbledore! > (I stopped liking the man after reading OOTP!!!) > Just my 2 cents worth. > Nicole > Who wants book 6 NOW!!! Carol: If you take the view that there are only five boys in Slytherin in Harry's year (Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, Theo Nott, and Blaise Zabini, he really didn't have much to choose from. Four of the five have DE fathers and the fifth is a nonentity. He chose the only one who has shown anything like an ability to lead. Maybe it's a learning opportunity for Draco? Maybe it has something to do with not wanting to interfere with Snape's cover as a spy (which is considerably more important than who is appointed fifth-year Slytherin prefect)? Trust me, there's a reason for DD's choice--and we'll learn it eventually. It seems a bit much to stop liking him because of one decision you disagree with. He and JKR know more about what's going on at Hogwarts than we do. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 05:29:02 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 05:29:02 -0000 Subject: A question about portkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91728 Sue wrote: It is not that I had trouble understanding the way the portkeys worked at the QWC, it was that there is not consistency across the board with regard to portkeys. The TWC portkey takes them to the graveyard when they touch it not at a specific pre arranged time. Last time I checked, I am not able to touch an airplane and leave. Ginger attempts a RL parallel: Going with the plane analogy, let's say the QWC was a regular old plane for which you buy a ticket and have a set time of departure. The portkey to and from the graveyard would be like hiring a charter and telling the pilot to wait to take off until you get there and wait to go back until you have reboarded. Obvious flaw: Harry didn't charter the plane, C/M did. Anyway, the portkey from DD's office to #12 is like having your own plane. You just ask if everyone is on board and then take off at will. Carol: Or just to simplify things, I think the normal way to enchant a portkey is to have it take effect when touched without any regard to a specific time. In fact, I think even the keys at the QWC were enchanted that way, but they were only *available* at a given time so that everyone from a given part of the country would meet at the same time and arrive at a prescheduled time. That way, no one would have to go back to that spot and make *another* portkey available for stragglers. They were trying to organize a complicated event and keep track of a lot of people. In ordinary circumstances, time wouldn't make a difference. The winner of the Tri-Wizard Tournament touches the portkey when he gets to it and is transported out of the maze. Crouch!Moody changed the destination but time was of no consequence. Same thing with the portkey that gets Harry out of the MoM. The only time that matters is the moment itself. He touches it and he goes to his destination. The only problem I have is with Mr. Weasley's definition of a portkey, which seems to imply that a prearranged time is always involved (GoF 70). It isn't, IMO, except in special circumstances like the QWC. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 05:37:20 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 05:37:20 -0000 Subject: was Re: Flitwick/Fudge/the Potters now Snape & Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91729 Potioncat: It always seemed like Snape just happened to be there and just taunted Neville for the evil fun of it. But could it be that Snape was waiting there on purpose to warn Lupin about something concerning Neville? Not out of concern for Lupin, but for Neville? me (vampire): After reading this part of your post something just suddenly popped into my head. We know that boggart will take the appearance of anything a person fear the most and at that point nobody knows what Neville fear the most. Maybe Snape was trying to remind Lupin that Neville's boggart might take the appearance of one of those who tortured his parents or maybe even Voldemort. If it is Voldything then pandemonium will break out in class. If it is one of the Lestranges, I can't see why it's a concern. Carol: If it were one of the Lestranges or young Barty Crouch in their guise as Death Eaters (or just a Death Eater in general) it would be more than a bit scary for the class, almost as bad as a Dementor or Voldemort himself. If that's really what Snape had in mind, then he's to be commended. Sad irony that his attempt to be compassionate backfired! I'm not sure that I believe the theory, but it's an interesting possibility. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 06:05:01 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:05:01 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91730 Sue said: I had always believed Kreature was tied to the house. He did not leave when Mrs. Black died, he just stayed in the house and answered the demands of a crazy portrait. I think if he was able to go to work for Narcissa he would have done so when Mrs. Black died and everyone else was in Azkaban. It seems more likely to me that "his adored Bellatrix" will try to find #12 and move her escaped clan in there. Sharon replies: That's a very interesting thought about Bellatrix trying to move some DEs into #12. With her assumption that the house is now vacant, it may seem to her to be the perfect hideout. Or will it become a battle front if the DEs discover the OOP there? Carol: I think Kreacher is tied to the family, not the house, and as long as a member of the family is alive, he has to serve them. He didn't move out when Mrs. Black died because she was his beloved mistress and 12 Grimmauld is his home and the home of his ancestors. (Remember, his life's ambition is to have his head mounted on the wall with theirs.) But now, with Sirius dead, he may be free to serve or at least visit other family members, and I really think he would choose to serve Narcissa (taking Dobby's place) if Bellatrix is unavailable. At any rate, I'm quite sure that Narcissa knew quite well which house Kreacher lived in and had always lived in and figured out quite easily, without being told, that 12 Grimmauld Place was the headquarters of the Order. (Kreacher was there, Sirius was with Kreacher, Sirius was in the Order, etc.). Snape isn't the only one who can put two and two together. Narcissa would have told Lucius, if he didn't know already who Kreacher belonged to, and Lucius would have told Voldemort, meaning that all of them now know where the Order's headquarters are. The problem with expelling the Order and taking over those headquarters themselves is all those protective spells, which have probably been altered so that the Blacks and Malfoys would now be recognized as enemies rather than friends, and that problematic Fidelius Charm, which would not let them see or enter the house even if they could find where it used to be. I thought at first that they might be able to see members of the Order entering or leaving the house but am now half-convinced that the Order members themselves would be protected by the spell and would be made invisible to anyone who had not personally been told the secret by the secret keeper, either in person or in writing. Someone also suggested that the house, being unplottable, may have been moved from its original location. If that's the case, then maybe the address hasn't always been 12 Grimmauld Place--same house, same portraits, same heads on the wall, same house-elf, but a different location than the one Narcissa and Bellatrix almost certainly visited as children. Come to think of it, there's some sense to that theory. Consider that, if the house has always been where it is now, the pureblood Blacks would have had Muggle neighbors! And if the house has been moved, then even knowing that Kreacher was Mrs. Black's house-elf and that Sirius is (was) hiding out in his old family home wouldn't enable Bellatrix or Lucius to apparate into the neighborhood and lie in wait to ambush unwary Order members leaving or entering the house. This Fidelius stuff is starting to make sense to me. . . . Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 06:31:20 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:31:20 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91731 Pippin: Now I agree, Peter is not quite the fool everyone takes him for. He knows that as soon as he's played out his part, he's toast. He's been told to let Black catch up with him in a crowded place, shout "Lily and James, how could you?" and kill Black. Little Peter, the hero, Order of Merlin, first class. But he guesses the real plan will be for someone to make it look like Black killed *him*. Peter foils the plan by cutting off his finger (he could have done that *before* he let Black catch up with him) and transforming into a rat. Carol: While I don't want to get into any highly imaginative theories (and very entertaining) theories about a second wandsman or ESE!Lupin, I think your suggestion that Peter cut off his finger *before* the spell that killed Muggles was cast makes a lot of sense. It would explain why he was holding his wand behind his back. I still think he cast the spell to fake his death and frame Sirius, then transformed into a rat (somehow managing to leave a bloody cloak behind as well). It always seemed to me just a little too neat that he could blow up the Muggles *and* leave a finger behind. Thanks for giving me a new perspective. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 06:48:10 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:48:10 -0000 Subject: The griffin-shaped door knocker (Was: Back in Black ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91732 Sembei: By the way, in Sirius' house there is furniture with legs in form of claws, like in DD's headmaster room. Do you think it might mean something? Also it has also called to my attention the fact that that room had a griffon-shaped knocker, which in the film was exagerated with the statue. Ideas? Carol: The claw-legged furniture could have been placed there by a certain former headmaster with very close connections to the Blacks (Phineas Nigellus). As for the griffin-shaped knocker on the headmaster's office door, I think it reflects DD's (and JKR's) sense of humor. Dumbledore is almost certainly the former head of Gryffindor house and remains closely associated with it (both the Sorting hat and the sword in his office originally belonged to Godric Gryffindor). I think the griffin on the door knocker reflects this association, but it's also an egregious pun: "griffin door" (Gryffindor). Good thing there's no such thing as a dumble or we'd have a "dumble door" knocker. Carol From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 07:09:00 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:09:00 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91733 snip or previous posts and part of Carol"s Carol wrote: Someone also suggested > that the house, being unplottable, may have been moved from its > original location. If that's the case, then maybe the address hasn't > always been 12 Grimmauld Place--same house, same portraits, same heads > on the wall, same house-elf, but a different location than the one > Narcissa and Bellatrix almost certainly visited as children. Come to > think of it, there's some sense to that theory. Consider that, if the > house has always been where it is now, the pureblood Blacks would have > had Muggle neighbors! And if the house has been moved, then even > knowing that Kreacher was Mrs. Black's house-elf and that Sirius is > (was) hiding out in his old family home wouldn't enable Bellatrix or > Lucius to apparate into the neighborhood and lie in wait to ambush > unwary Order members leaving or entering the house. > > This Fidelius stuff is starting to make sense to me. . . . > > Carol This being the case, the house could be moved again. Any time the Order was looking to be in a better location or near some place they needed to protect and watch. Why not move it to Hogsmead now. They no longer need to be right on top of the MoM. They might be in need of protecting Hogwarts. "No, no, house-elves can't leave unless they're given clothes, they're tied to their family's house," said Sirius (OotP pg 504, US ed) Not that Sirius couldn't be wrong, but I still think that Kreacher would have already gone to Narcissa if he could have. After all, Sirius had been "dead" to the family for more years than he was in Azkaban. And I'm still not convinced that Regulus is in fact dead. Sue From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 07:15:59 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:15:59 -0000 Subject: The griffin-shaped door knocker (Was: Back in Black ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91734 snip: I think the > griffin on the door knocker reflects this association, but it's also > an egregious pun: "griffin door" (Gryffindor). Good thing there's no > such thing as a dumble or we'd have a "dumble door" knocker. > > Carol I hope someday when I grow up (:P) I will get all of the humor in these books. I love the pun, thanks for being bright enough to pick it up and generous enough to share it with those of us who only heard it wizzing swiftly over our heads (at least I hope I'm not the only one who totally missed it!) It is almost as good as the whole "punting" thing! Sue From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 07:16:18 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:16:18 -0000 Subject: Draco as prefect (Was: Ron as prefect... and then some) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91735 jeanico2000 says: His biggest bone of contention with OOTP so far is not the fact that Ron is a prefect (though he says that, next to Hermione, Harry really deserved that honor), but that Draco Malfoy is a prefect! "What was Dumbledore thinking?" said my spouse... and he's right, IMO. Dumbledore, who is supposed to know his students well, appointed a Slytherin prefect who is a proven bully and who's father is a Death Eater! Were there no other deserving students in Slytherin House? Shame on Dumbledore! Janet Anderson: I think Malfoy was a prefect for several reasons. 1) Dumbledore would not penalize Malfoy because his father was a Death Eater, but only for the faults of Draco himself (which I admit are manifold, but keep reading). 2) Descriptions of the choice of prefects by Lupin and others seem to indicate that the job will be given to someone who is a) academically at least competent, b) does not have a history of chronic troublemaking and c) has a chance of keeping order. The only Slytherin student we have seen so far who fulfills all three of these requirements is Draco. Crabbe and Goyle each have three brain cells out looking for a fourth for bridge. Yes, *we* know Malfoy is a bully, and I'm sure so do Dumbledore and Snape, but Dumbledore probably figures it's still better than any of the alternatives, and Snape probably doesn't care. Carol: I've already posted on this topic so I'll just say that I agree with Janet up to this point (except for Snape not caring--I think Draco is part of the burden he has (had) to put up with in order to maintain his connection with the DEs via Lucius Malfoy). Here's the part I want to comment on: Janet: Pansy Parkinson is probably not much brighter and doesn't appear to have much influence. Carol: Actually, Pansy has a lot of influence. She's the leader of a "gang" of Slytherin girls. All houses have two fifth-year prefects, a boy and a girl (e,g,, Ron and Hermione for Gryffindor). Pansy is the natural choice, possibly the only choice, for the Slytherin girl prefect-- certainly preferable to the she-Goyle Millicent Bulstrode. As I said earlier, despite the thirty students in the DADA class in OoP, almost all the previous evidence points to ten students per class (twenty brooms for Gryffindor and Slytherin in flying lessons and twenty pairs of ear muffs for Gryffindor and Hufflepuff for the mandrake less on in herbology). Dumbledore and Snape must choose two prefects from among the ten students in Slytherin that year. The only real option is to choose the natural leaders, whom most of the Slytherins will follow in any case: Draco and Pansy. I think there will be some who don't follow their lead, but that's a topic for another thread (and everyone already knows what I think about "the good Slytherin," anyway. Or I flatter myself that they do. Nudge. Theo Nott. Nudge). Carol From nymphadora1 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 20:32:33 2004 From: nymphadora1 at yahoo.com (nymphadora1) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:32:33 -0000 Subject: A question about portkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91736 Sue: > > It is not that I had trouble understanding the way the portkeys > worked at the QWC, it was that there is not consistency across the > board with regard to portkeys. The TWC portkey takes them to the > graveyard when they touch it not at a specific pre arranged time. > Last time I checked, I am not able to touch an airplane and leave. > > Thoughts on Portkeys: 1. Portkeys are magic while airplanes aren't, so I guess they can be programmed to do all kinds of things that muggle methods of transport can't do. 2. The triwizard cup was an illegal portkey created by a dark wizard (presumably imposter-Moody) so it may have been programmed to do things that normal portkeys can't or shouldn't be able to do. Nymph (who's sitting at her desk wishing she had a portkey to Hawaii about now). From kking0731 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 05:01:04 2004 From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:01:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time turner question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91737 ryanweasley: >I was just wondering... I understand how a time turner is supposed to >work but, how were Hermione and Harry able to use theirs toward the >end of POA to go back and rescue Sirius? (as well as themselves) >There was no way that they could have escaped the Dementors to even >have a future to travel back from. And yet they did? I'm sorry if >this has been explained or if no one understands what I'm even asking >but it is really bugging me. Someboby help! Kathy's thought: If I understand you correctly, you are thinking along the same lines as I am. What came first the chicken or the egg? Harry saw himself in the past so what he is seeing must have already happened at some point in time to be relevant to the future. You cant see what hasnt happened, can you? Harry even says to Hermione that it was ok that he saw himself because he thought it was his dad. Its kind of like in the Oop when they are in the DoM. They see that big oversized time turner (the hourglass shaped thing with the chicken that turns back into an egg every few minutes). The time turner Hermione wore was also shaped like an hourglass. The big time turner in the DoM shows how the time turners (like Hermiones) work. Time is not just past, present, and future but is in a continual loop, quite like a phoenix. There is no beginning, middle, or end, which is why death is just another great adventure because there is no end. Its kind of like Back to the Future, when Marty goes into the future to save his past. Kathy _________________________________________________________________ Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 07:30:30 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:30:30 -0000 Subject: What about next year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91738 With all of this talk about prefects, I began to wonder about Next years new prefects. I am figuring Luna will be the prefect for Ravenclaw. Yes, I know, everyone seems to think she is a bit nuts, but she seems to be someone who could help younger students and she certainly doesn't flinch in the face of adversity. What about Ginny? What about Collin Creevy? Any takers? Sue From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Feb 27 12:25:18 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:25:18 -0000 Subject: What about next year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91739 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > With all of this talk about prefects, I began to wonder about Next > years new prefects. >SNIP< > What about Ginny? > > Any takers? > Sue Ginny will make it. Ron will be in a mix then! That will mean everyone in the Weasley family made prefects. Potioncat (and you call yourself our mother!) From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 12:53:50 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:53:50 -0000 Subject: Draco as prefect (Was: Ron as prefect... and then some) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91740 > jeanico2000 says: > His biggest bone of contention with OOTP so far is not the fact that > Ron is a prefect (though he says that, next to Hermione, Harry really > deserved that honor), but that Draco Malfoy is a prefect! "What was > Dumbledore thinking?" said my spouse... and he's right, IMO. > Dumbledore, who is supposed to know his students well, appointed a > Slytherin prefect who is a proven bully and who's father is a Death > Eater! Were there no other deserving students in Slytherin House? > Shame on Dumbledore! Ginger here: I agree with all those who have posted that Draco is the only Slytherin who seems to be firing on all pistons that we have met. I also agree that the "mudblood" thing is not a good thing for a prefect to say. Perhaps DD saw himself in a bad situation and decided to make the best of it. Draco is a leader. Draco is the most intelligent (by default) of those we've met. Draco's father would believe that Snape had been the one to "nominate" his son, which helps Snape and whatever he is doing for the Order. So we have the downside. The boy is a vocal racist. Not that I condone that, but it is probably more easily handled than a lack of intelligence. Had Crabbe or Goyle been made a prefect, he would have looked to Draco for advise on every turn. Had Blaise (assuming he is indeed a he) or Theo been made a prefect, either he would have been on Draco's side and just as far in his pocket as Crabbe or Goyle, or he would have met with serious opposition by Draco and his cronies. The same goes for any other Slytherin that may exist that we don't know of. So, the downside of choosing anyone but Draco is that Draco would either run things behind the scenes or make things impossible for the prefect. The upside of choosing Draco is that he can't hide behind anyone. He is the *prefect*. His actions will be monitered. Should he be heard throwing around "mudblood", he can be taken aside and told that that will not be tolerated from a prefect. Prefects are representatives of the school, and all that. Dumbledore would have an "in" to talk with him privately, and perhaps get him to see the error of his ways. Personally, I don't think that will work with Draco, but DD is far more optomistic than I am. In other words, if you want to keep an eye on someone, the best place to have him is right in front of your nose. Ginger, still chuckling "Griffin door" Heeheehee. From naama_gat at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 12:54:39 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:54:39 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91741 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Now I agree, Peter is not quite the fool everyone takes him for. > He knows that as soon as he's played out his part, he's toast. > He's been told to let Black catch up with him in a crowded place, > shout "Lily and James, how could you?" and kill Black. Little > Peter, the hero, Order of Merlin, first class. But he guesses the > real plan will be for someone to make it look like Black killed > *him*. Peter foils the plan by cutting off his finger (he could have > done that *before* he let Black catch up with him) and > transforming into a rat. The curse which was intended to destroy > him misses and disposes of twelve unfortunate Muggles > instead. > > Sirius thinks Peter did it, holding a wand behind his back. But > that means Sirius couldn't have seen it. According to the Muggle > witnesses, Peter never got his wand out at all. So once again a > curse comes out of nowhere. We must consider the possibility of > another wandsman, or perhaps someone who is skilled enough > to fire a curse without using a wand at all. Hmmmmm .... The whole point of an explosive curse is that it makes not finding Peter's body reasonable. That's why Peter cut off his finger, to leave a body part behind that makes his exploding to little bits credible. But if he did that, then he was acting on the assumption that he was faking his own death - not avoiding being killed by a DE. And vice versa, if the explosive curse was cast by somebody else, intending to kill Peter, why an explosive curse in the first place? Why not AK? There is a combination of details here - cutting off a finger, making an explosion, accusing Sirius in public - that all *together* make Peter's death credible. Another point. If Peter's death was necessary to prevent his telling the identitiy of the second, more important, double agent, an immediate corollary is that Peter knows his identity. Since you obviously mean the second double agent as Lupin, why didn't Peter confront Lupin with this in the Shrieking Shack? Once Lupin had returned the wands to the trio, why didn't he accuse Lupin of betraying the Potters, telling everything he knows, in the hope of turning the kids and Sirius against Lupin? > > Now the DE's in Azkaban know that Sirius didn't betray the > Potters. They know that Sirius wasn't one of them, and Voldemort > never taught him any tricks, like how to kill twelve people with > one spell. So how can they be sure Peter's dead--unless one of > their own did it? There is absolutely no evidence that Voldemort and his followers were the only ones who could cast such curses. The Aurors, for instance, were using Unforgivables on DEs, so there is no reason for the DEs themselves to think that Sirius couldn't use powerful curses. > > Pippin: > The consensus on the list was that priori incantatem will be > referred to again, and it will be important for it to operate as > originally described. And of course JKR said there was a huge > clue on that page. It wasn't the James Lily swap. So what was it? I've never heard of that. Really? That's *very* interesting. Do you have the link to the interview? > Pippin: > Harry can only see what's directly in front of him. If I was > Voldemort, I'd want somebody on Pettigrew like ugly on a Troll > until the rebirthing spell was completed and Pettigrew's job was > done. My theory is that once Voldemort was safely in the > cauldron, our stealthy second wandsman darted in and put the > wand in the pocket. As you say, it had to get there sometime. > According to your theory Peter would have to pick up the robes > with one hand, and with the same hand, manage to get the wand > into the pocket unnoticed. Quite a feat! I don't quite get this - Harry was meant to be well and dead - whether Voldemort resurrection succeeded or not. Why the secrecy, then? Naama From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Fri Feb 27 14:14:34 2004 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:14:34 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" > wrote: > > Pippin theorized: > > > > Nope, I'm suggesting that Peter didn't kill Cedric. In any case > > Cedric couldn't have recognized him. Peter was hooded and > > Harry himself didn't recognize him until later. I'm suggesting > that > > someone else was in the graveyard. > > > > > > So do we imagine that fumble-fingered Wormtail managed > > to swish a wand out of his pocket before putting Voldebabe > > down, or that he put him down and took out the wand, all while > > Cedric was politely standing there waiting to be murdered? > > > > Lounging on the grassy knoll, Eustace_Scrubb offered: > > > > Actually, I'd have to say that Wormtail performs pretty well under > pressure. He managed to kill all those muggles, frame Sirius > for the killings and excise his own finger when he was cornered > and then transform himself into a rat.< > > Pippin stretches out on the knoll: > Ahhh, now we're on firmer ground. The conspiracy to frame > Sirius is canon. There was information that Sirius was > Voldemort's most devoted servant, prepared to out himself as > Voldemort's second-in-command. Peter, in hiding or on the lam, > could not have spread this rumor on his own. The DE's in > Azkaban knew that Peter, not Sirius, betrayed the Potters. And > they were very, very sure that Peter was dead. Which is odd, but > we'll get to that in a moment. > > First let's think about what would have happened if Voldemort > hadn't met his downfall in Godric's Hollow. How was the > conspiracy to play out? Any plan to discredit Black must also > encompass a plan to silence Peter. He's the only one who can > prove that Black is innocent. That's a huge liability for Voldemort. > Peter must not remain alive to face questioning by Dumbledore > and the aurors. If Peter was to fake his death and go into hiding, > he wouldn't be much use as a double agent anymore, in which > case why bother framing Sirius at all? Answer: there's another > double agent and Peter is expendable. Tcy steps out from lurking behind a bush near the knoll: It's no secret that I don't buy ESE!Lupin. I make room for the fact that JKR may prove me wrong - but until then, he's a good guy. The part of this thread that brought me out from the shadows is not Pippin's idea that Lupin is the baddie here...but rather that Lord Thingy is being given too much credit. Voldemort has shown himself to be very short-sighted (and with tunnel vision, to boot). He (thought) he knew that all he had to do was kill the Potter child and then no one else would be able to defeat him - so he'd be free to rise to whatever level of power he wished unchecked. I think it likely that the plan was hatched to get to Harry and that said plan went no further. If he succeeded in killing Harry, there would have been no need to worry about Wormtail and his cover. If Wormtail were discovered as the traitor - so what? He'd served his purpose to Voldemort. Tcy From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 15:17:56 2004 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:17:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4283 In-Reply-To: <1077827774.4614.60748.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040227151756.55499.qmail@web10006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91743 Message: 20 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:20:40 -0000 From: "suehpfan" Subject: Re: A question about portkeys snip They'd still have to be strictly timed to > avoid muggle attention again and considering everyone probably wanted > to get home ASAP, having the timed portkeys would reduce the mass > confusion, possible chaos of everyone leaving at once by the other > types of portkeys someone else mentioned in their post. I didn't read > too much into this phrase because it's a common one. "I'm going to > try to take an early flight to *insert destination here*". > > Sen It is not that I had trouble understanding the way the portkeys worked at the QWC, it was that there is not consistency across the board with regard to portkeys. The TWC portkey takes them to the graveyard when they touch it not at a specific pre arranged time. Last time I checked, I am not able to touch an airplane and leave. Last time I checked I can't touch an airplane at a designated time and be transported either. However if it's a mass transit (public) flight I must wait for a scheduled time. If however it is a private plane I can leave anytime I wish. We had no explanation of the mechanics of a portkey. No where is it stated they always work at prearranged times or instantly. All we know from cannon is they transport everyone touching them to a predetermined location. Until I'm told otherwise by the narrator I'm going to believe the one casting the charm has some leeway as to the time the portkey will be active. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 16:10:48 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:10:48 -0000 Subject: Digest Number 4283 In-Reply-To: <20040227151756.55499.qmail@web10006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91744 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Darrell Harris wrote: > It is not that I had trouble understanding the way the portkeys worked at the QWC, it was that there is not consistency across the board with regard to portkeys. The TWC portkey takes them to the graveyard when they touch it not at a specific pre arranged time. Last time I checked, I am not able to touch an airplane and leave. >No where is it stated they always work at prearranged times or instantly. All we know from cannon is they transport everyone touching them to a predetermined location. Until I'm told otherwise by the narrator I'm going to believe the one casting the charm has some leeway as to the time the portkey will be active. Now Entropy: Jumping into this thread late, so I hope I'm not being redundant: (COS, ch6)"...we use Portkeys. They're objects that are used to transport wizards from one spot to another *at a prearranged time*..." Then, later, " '...must be nearly time,' said Mr. Weasly, pulling out his watch again...'three...," muttered Mr. Weasley, one eye still on his watch, "two...one..." So, portkeys are like trains, buses, planes, etc. Hop onto one and leave at a prearranged time. So, why would JKR do all this explanation and demonstration of how a portkey worked (she named the whole chapter after one!), and then have the Triwizard Cup transport Harry/Cedric when they *touched* it? I don't have an answer for this; just being rhetorical. :: Entropy :: From hufflepuff at pop.com.br Fri Feb 27 00:15:38 2004 From: hufflepuff at pop.com.br (hufflepuff0305) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:15:38 -0000 Subject: Back from Brazil (Cho/Marauders Map/Neville/Why is OOtP original/ Fudge and Daily Prophet/Pensieves/ HP main characters could die/Peeves/ JKR Magical World/Ron as a Knight/Broomsticks) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91745 Almar? for everyone in HPforGrownups: There and here back again is Samwise Weasley, directly from Brazil to HP4GrownUps, with a more (old) replies. Before the replies, hearty thanks for Joy, Susan and Manya for the reception. And thanks Joy for your approval of my English. I will try to scribe the most correctly possible, but, if I have some slip, please correct me. Okay, time for replies: ===========================================================================================================================================About: Cho ==========================================================================================================================================="But she really knows next to nothing about Harry himself, except for the whole "Boy Who Lived" legend, unless you count Quidditch, and the depressing topic of Cedric. In all honesty, I never liked Cho, and on that date, the whole time I was yelling in my head for her to stop trying to manipulate him for assurance, because Harry doesn't understand, and she just ended up hurting both of them." (Hitomi) IMHO, Cho had left Harry's story as she had entered it: as another Quidditch rival. The "Cho rona", as we in Brazil call her ("Crybaby Cho"), IMHO has sought Cedric in Harry, in at no time she had a little care about the feelings or anything in Harry. Something in me says that Cho only looked Harry as "The Boy Who Lived", not as Harry (as Luna did, IMHO). I didn't like Cho a lot... She looked very egotistical and superficial for me. ===========================================================================================================================================About: Marauder?s Map ==========================================================================================================================================="What do you think?? I think they showed up twice, Lupin was focused on the original set of Harry and Hermione." (Tonya) Your idea is okay for me, but I have another: the Time Turner generates an anathema in time, so he's not caught by anything that's monitoring the "real" time/space flux. This is based in the principle that nothing could be at same time in two places, and, IMHO, Marauder's Map was designed by this principle. I believe that could be possible for someone create a Map that catches Time Turner's users, but that could be a VERY GREAT magical work, and even the Marauders being so smart, that couldn't produce such a powerful magical item in school time. "I have always thought that the map only shows people who are moving around. So if someone is still, like sitting in a chair, it would not show them. Canon says things like Peeves bogging, DD pacing, Snape moving......" (Tonya) That's good, and should explain the "not-appearing" of Harry and Mione in Marauder's Map, 'cause she stilled the most time in the Forbidden Forest next Hagrid's Hut. So, it's not difficult to think that, at some way, Marauder's Map only detect movement, and not precisely. ===========================================================================================================================================About: Neville and Harry twins? ==========================================================================================================================================="This sounds a lot like Luke and Leia to me. "The force is strong in my family. I have it. My sister has it..." Nope, don't think so." (Ravenclaw Bookworm) No way! Excluding being Gryffindors, DA and the Prophecy, Harry and Neville has no other common point. But the comparison with Luke and Leia should be extended in the way that Neville and Harry have the same wizardry potential (Harry's is more developed, Neville's rawer). ===========================================================================================================================================About: Flitwick ==========================================================================================================================================="This may be movie contamination, but I wonder if Flitwick isn't secretly half elf. (Before the movie, I merely pictured him as an extremely short human... in the film he reminded me of a Munchkin). Elves, as a group, seem especially good at Charms (Dobby made the pudding hover without a wand, and they certainly use charms in their houscleaning duties) , making it a natural subject for him to teach, and the box of sugar mice he slipped Harry as a thank-you after the Skeeter interview in OotP seemed like a bit of elfish mischief." (Louise) Hey, that's a cool idea... I don't know, but your arguments catch very well. I myself believed that Flitwick was a midget. But your idea of Flitwick as a half-elf could be very explaining about his behaviour (like being launched by a misguided Neville's Expelling Charm against a wall and make nothing). ===========================================================================================================================================About: Lily in James' OWL exams ==========================================================================================================================================="As to why Harry didn't look for Lily in the exam room - I have no idea." (Martha) I have thought... That's should be 'cause that was Snape's Pensieve and Snape's memories, and Snape would not be interested in Lily, but in doing his exam and showing how much the Marauders could be jerks. ===========================================================================================================================================About: Neville and the Prophecy ==========================================================================================================================================="However, I have to ask, why would JK mention Neville as an alternative, if there's no question in the matter?" (LizVega) I think that one of them (either one) will be the "chosen". Voldemort will "die" and return only with the help of the "chosen". BUT, the other will have the same power to fight against him! Neville is a wizard with strong raw potential (explaining: he has very much power, but no training). I believe that this is the motif for all Malfoys? and Snape's mind raping against Neville. But now Neville is more confident and ready to kick some DE butts. ===========================================================================================================================================About: Why is OOtP original? ==========================================================================================================================================="But what was the reason for starting it the first time? The ministry then was fully involved in resisting Voldemort so why the need to start a secret group in the first place?" (spangb) Well... This could be 'cause they known that LV had very much spies in MoM, so they needed a way to make some decisions and plans undercover, more or less like CIA or Mossad or KGB. ===========================================================================================================================================About: Fudge and Daily Prophet ==========================================================================================================================================="I wonder how Fudge has suddenly managed to get such a total control over it, and, if it were quite easy to do, why hadn't he done it before?"(Nellie) Well, all government want to have media control and support. Fudge only had maintained Prophet Daily "free" while it was supporting him. But, in OotP, he was making some "censorship" against HP and OotP. I'm Brazilian, and not too long (25 years or less) we ended a dictatorial government with so much censorship and so on... Until now, we believed that government has some "push" in the media. I could transfer that to OotP: Fudge want some media control to "explain" your positions, making Harry appear like a crazy boy, etc... ===========================================================================================================================================About: Pensieves ==========================================================================================================================================="So I guess this means you can either copy a memory and put it into a pensieve or you can put the whole memory in one. Can person A put person B's memory from a pensieve into his own head?" (Abbet) Well, Abbet, I believe that, once you put a memory in Pensieve, you can't extract it again, BUT you could see it, like Harry made in GoF and OotP. You could not mind-cloning a person between Pensieve: you could not retrieve knowledge directly from Pensieve. ===========================================================================================================================================About: HP main characters could die? ==========================================================================================================================================="I read The Hobbit the last time several years ago, so my memory might not be accurate, but I remember the death of only one major character, at the very end and with a good moral." (Neri) That was Thorin Oakenshield and, in death's bed, he forgives Bilbo and made the peace between dwarves, elves and Men. "A more relevant example may be LOTR, with a full-scale war and a very high body count. I can recall the death of only one major character in LOTR (Boromir, of course. Theoden was hardly a major character in the book, as opposed to the movies), and again with a very good moral." (Neir) Boromir died to save Merry and Pippin in Amon-Hen, to purify himself from the corruption of the One. "But I certainly did not claim it is impossible JKR will kill more major characters. I merely asked: what for?" (Neri) That's okay for me if JK kills major characters IF they have made something that "reasons" that kill. And I can't see no major characters being anything to be killed (except, perhaps, Dumbledore...) BUT, we could see 2nd grade characters (the Hufflepuffs, Cho, the Creeveys, Draco) being killed. For example: so much people bets that at least a Weasley will be killed until HP series' end. And the bets is for one of the twins, Molly, Arthur or Ginny. But why not Percy (yes, for me Percy is a 2nd-grade character)? I have noted the family's emphasis of HP series, and Percy has broken with his family exactly when is needed to people stay tight against LV and DE. I could see also Snape (for obvious reasons) and Draco (if he change not his behavior) with bull-marks. Wormtail is another marked to be killed. But Harry, Ron, Mione, Ginny, Luna and Neville aren't, IMHO, in this list, and also aren't Lupin, Tonks, the Dursleys, the Longbottoms, the Lovegoods, the Weasley (except, perhaps, Percy), Hagrid... He could being badly thrashed, physical and psychological alike, but not killed. JKR killed Cedric to show the banality of DE's deaths and the "rating" that DEs guives to life, unless themselves'. And she killed Sirius to show that, for first time, Dumbledore's and Harry's decision could be very, very costly. "Based on the above, a reasonable prediction is that we are going to see many *secondary* characters killed in books 6 and 7, but no main character killed (or one at the most)." (Neri) I agreed, and we'll see so much MoM and AD people being killed (I believe that all the Hufflepuffs in AD will be killed... :'-( ). But the main characters will *not* be killed... He could be badly thrashed, either physical (like Harry in the end of GoF or Neville in the end of OoTP) or psychological (like Ron in the end of OoTP or Ginny in the end of CS), but not killed. "I personally felt it was considerably better than dying, or why would Elrond have any problem with his daughter staying with Aragorn, and why had so many men in the history of middle earth wanted to reach the Gray Havens?" (Neri) * WARNING: Tolkien spoiler. You have been warned :-D * * * * * * * * * * * Frodo has gone to Aman to heal yourself from the corruption of the One. He didn't forgot the "preciousss", so Arwen gives him a star-shaped collar, with which Frodo "plays", like he "played" with the One... I see Frodo's departure as a good thing: he died (no one knows when) but he had purified himself from the corruption and has died without pain. This could be Harry's destiny: go away from WW to heal himself until all the brushes and hurts were healed... IF they were healed. ===========================================================================================================================================About: Peeves ==========================================================================================================================================="Though in the first four books he was, of course, a slight hellraiser, he seemed to wait until the arrival of Umbridge to really cause some chaos, like a pair of redheaded, freckle faced, Quidditch playing hellions I could mention." (Neri)" Peeves and the redheaded Quidditch players understood that supporting Umbridge you should only obtain more and more restrictions, until Hogwarts would resemble Orwell's 1984 Oceania - "Ignorance is bliss", and go to a guerrilla-like warfare. ===========================================================================================================================================About: JKR Magical World ==========================================================================================================================================="Perhaps JKR is doing an Asimov and keeping large areas of her world uncovered, for herself or other writers to touch upon at a later date, perhaps?" (Chris) This also used by H.P.Lovecraft (Cthulhu Mythos) and in the Conan's Hyborian Age... That's a so much used way for creating great worlds. The only writer that don't made that was, AFAIK, Tolkien with Arda (the world of Middle-Earth) I believe that JK will make that, so people (like me) should write something about other places (like Brazil) and other times (like 3+ years after 7th book). I believe that we'll see very interesting ideas if this come true. ===========================================================================================================================================About: Ron as a Knight ==========================================================================================================================================="Ron is certainly quirky and unpredictable. Considering the chess game as a metaphor for the Second War, will this element of his nature be of value, will he indeed be a maverick who gets into areas of the action which no one else reaches or am I trying to draw parallels where none exist?" (Geoff) No, Geoff, your ideas are okay, and I will place my 2c: Being a (little) skilled chess player, I have learned that, when the chess game is truncated, the knight is a very important piece to eliminate enemy's piece and free the advance of other pieces, like pawns, the queen and towers. I believe that Ron is Knight and it will be very important 'cause, as a knight, Ron could react in unpredictable ways. And he could also work to free the way for Harry and Hermione and Neville (the king and the two towers, IMHO), and for Luna (the other knight), Fred and George (the bishops) and DA & OotP (the pawns). Ron also shows to be very resourceful of ideas and ways... ===========================================================================================================================================About: Broomsticks ==========================================================================================================================================="On to broomsticks: can only witches and wizards ride broomsticks? When Harry gets the firebolt (PoA) it automatically hovers at the right height for him. Can brooms sense whether someone is innately magical, in other words if Filch got on one would it just fall to the ground?" (Anneli) I don't think so... I believe that the magic is in broomstick. So, once a broomstick receives the flying spell, anyone that was trained to fly a broomstick could fly it. Even Vernon Dursley could make it, when trained. Namari? ===========================================================================================================================================Samwise Weasley The Burrow, Bag Road, 9 3/4 Borda da Mata - MG - Brazil Nick: Sam_Weasley hufflepuff at pop.com.br ICQ #:173799674 samwiseweasley at pop.com.br MSN: hufflepuffbr at hotmail.com Linux User #328087 ===========================================================================================================================================HPCode (1.1) H PS++COS+++POA+++GOF+++*OOTP+++ FF++ QB CH+++DD+++HB++HM+PO++TR+++AR+++AT+++*MS+++ NL/Gi-BW/Fl-RB/Ol-RW/He-HP/Lu-RL/To HPCode - www.hogwarts-library.net/common/hpcode.html From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Feb 27 18:23:56 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:23:56 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: <000401c3fcb2$c9292140$5c4e6751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > > Just one small thing to be explained to support this one, and that's the > fact that Sirius could perfectly easily have put himself in the clear right > at the outset. > > Hagrid emerges from the wreckage having rescued Harry. Sirius now appears on > his bike, hotfoot from discovering that Peter has gone AWOL. They talk, > argue about who should take Harry, and then go their separate ways: Hagrid > and Harry to go into limbo for 24 hours and Sirius to pursue Peter. > > So. Why doesn't Sirius explain to Hagrid that Peter was the secret keeper > and the traitor? If he had, then he'd be in the clear and there'd be no > question of Azkaban. Peter would have found it impossible to frame Sirius > and disappear to commune with his rodent side for the next 10 years, and the > Dark Lord's return would have been made that much more difficult. > > Sirius really does bring it all on himself, don't you think? You put your finger on a critical point. So far as we know no-one asked Sirius *anything* at Godrics Hollow and that is very difficult to accept. Everyone assumed that he was still the Secret Keeper, anyone arriving at the wreckage would turn to Sirius for answers or at least information as to how this could happen. Just five words "I wasn't the Secret Keeper" and the whole farrago becomes a very different kettle of fish. There have been many posts in the past speculating about that lost 24 hours between Godrics Hollow and DD in Privet Drive, none of which produced verifiable conclusions. Most frustrating. OK, lets recap a few salient points, with questions. 1. House at Godrics Hollow wrecked in an explosion. Explosion? From an AK? How did this happen? 2. Somebody informs the interested parties, which probably means DD and the Order, but let's not forget that the rest of the WW heard almost as quickly. Who? Who was there and got the word out? 3. So far as we know, Hagrid (sent by DD?) is first on the scene. Why Hagrid? Wouldn't an Auror be more logical given that the Potters were a known target of Voldy and his DEs? 4. Sirius arrives. He later states that he went to check up on Peter and found him gone, so he then went to the Potter house, saw the wreckage and their bodies. 5. He immediately suspects Peter - *but tells no-one!* Come on! Pull the other one, it's got bells on. 6. At the Shrieking Shack Sirius tells us that the DEs in Azkaban accept that Peter betrayed the Potters. The DEs also assumed that Peter betrayed Voldy, but was now presumed to be dead. So how come it was a secret to the rest of the WW? Why would the DEs hide his role in the affair? 7. Peter is well aware that Sirius knows the truth and that he, and anyone he told will be after him for explanations. He fakes his own death and kills others in addition. I've always had trouble with this; it doesn't seem to match what we know about the AK curse. All other examples are aimed at single, targeted individuals and we have been told that you have to really mean it. How can Peter, not the sharpest chisel in the set, kill 13 people at random that he's not even looking at? Talk about weapons of mass destruction! But wait a moment! Sirius doesn't mention an AK. What he says is "...he blew apart the street with the wand behind his back..." Blew apart; remind you of something? Godrics Hollow. Somebody blew up Godrics Hollow, either to hide evidence or as an act of spite after Voldy disintegrated. On the face of it, it could have been Peter. We must assume that there were no acolyte DEs swanning around the place or they would have carried the tale back to their lair; Peter would not have been suspected of betraying Voldy and the affair at the Longbottoms need never have occured. Just Peter and Voldy. A rough framework of events can be cobbled together, but explanations of individual actions are more difficult. Sirius's inaction in failing to shout his innocence from the rooftops and to cast suspicion on Peter does not make sense - unless he is hiding something. To stretch the envelope a bit, suppose what he has to hide is some sort of association with Voldy, just as Peter suggested in the Shrieking Shack. He'd really want to keep that quiet. Voldy was gone, James was dead, Lily was dead - now who else needs tidying up? Ah, yes! Peter. Grief-stricken friend hunts down filthy traitor and zaps him in the street. Unfortunate but understandable. Poor chap. Too upset to call the Aurors and get Pettigrew taken alive for questioning. Now no-one need ever know. But things didn't work out quite the way he intended. Tee hee! Kneasy From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 07:35:20 2004 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:35:20 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91747 Carol wrote: > > I think that the veiled archway somehow allows the Unspeakables to > study death--not as a coroner does, to discover the cause of a > particular death, but to study death itself as one of the great > Mysteries (the others being life, time, the mind, and probably love) > that have intrigued philosophers since the time of the Greeks. How > they could do it, I don't know, but maybe they have ways of > communicating with the spirit voices that Harry and Luna hear behind > the veil. But the archway is described as ancient and it's placed, > as you say, in an amphitheater, so maybe it was used as a place of > execution in Roman times and the Department of Mysteries was built > on that spot specifically to study death and only later expanded to > include other Mysteries--followed in modern times by an entire > building dedicated to bureaucracy. > Max: I like Carol's speculation that the veil was formerly used as a method of execution, but is now being used as a way to study death. The physical veil itself, and the fact that one can hear voices coming from behind is very intriguing. Is the veil just a one way ticket? Or might someone from the 'land of the dead' be able to move back out through the veil, if only to communicate with the 'land of the living'? I like this idea because it might allow Harry to communicate with his parents and/or Sirius once again. Max From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 20:05:36 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:05:36 -0000 Subject: Digest Number 4283 - Portkeys Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > > Now Entropy: > > Jumping into this thread late, so I hope I'm not being redundant: > > (COS, ch6)"...we use Portkeys. They're objects that are used to > transport wizards from one spot to another *at a prearranged time*..." > > Then, later, " '...must be nearly time,' said Mr. Weasly, pulling out > his watch again...'three...," muttered Mr. Weasley, one eye still on > his watch, "two...one..." > > So, portkeys are like trains, buses, planes, etc. Hop onto one and > leave at a prearranged time. > > So, why would JKR do all this explanation and demonstration of how a > portkey worked (she named the whole chapter after one!), and then have > the Triwizard Cup transport Harry/Cedric when they *touched* it? I > don't have an answer for this; just being rhetorical. > > :: Entropy :: bboy_mn: Indeed this seeming anomaly has been addressed in the thread that spawned this thread as well as many other threads. If we look at Portkeys from a practical perspective, then we must see that the absolute time of day method is very limiting. Others have used airplane as an analogy to suggest how Portkey are likely to be versatile in their application- Exact time of day activation - similar to booking a commercial flight, it leaves at a specific time of day. If you're not there at that time, you lose the option to fly. Exact time, but within your control - you charter a private plane to take you somewhere, you schedule it to leave at a certain time, but that departure time is controlled by and can be ammended by you, the person who is paying for the use of the plane. Available as needed - you own your own airplane and can fly when ever you want. >From a practical stand point, if I were inventing the Portkey Charm, I would want similar flexibility. For the World Cup where many many travel arrangements had to be made days, if not weeks, in advance, the safest most effective way to program the Portkeys is to have them leave at a very specific time of day. That way, before and after that precise time, the Portkey object is secure. If it is found by a muggle, it's a safe and generally useless uninteresting object. In the latest book (OoP), Dumbledore used more immediate Portkeys because that is the method of Portkey programming that serves his immediate need. He doesn't need Harry to transport back to Hogwarts at 7 o'clock on Thursday, he doesn't need the Weasley family to transport to 12 Grimmauld Place next week. In these cases, he needs to transpost people now. That is a completely different need than the Quidditch World Cup, and logically, he uses a completely different method. So, are Dumbledore's Portkeys controlled by time activation or not? Answer is yes, they are, except that the time is NOW, not next Tuesday at 3:00pm. Whether Dumbledore activates on a count of three, as in 1, 2, 3, NOW, or whether he simply says 'NOW', that is still time activated. The time is NOW. The only exception we have is touch activated, and that seems to me to be a reasonable variation of how we would logically want a Portkey to work. You really can't have a touch activated Portkey in the middle of a crowd or typically expect more than one person to use it. It's simply not a secure device, too easy for someone to accidently touch it, and too difficult to time the simultaneus touches of more that one person. But for a single person in a secure environment like you at home, or Harry in the Tri-Wizard's maze, those drawbacks aren't typically a problem. So, you charm and activate the portkey in advance, when you get up in the morning to go to work, you have your coffee then touch your Portkey, and you are off to work. That's a perfectly reasonable application of and a perfectly reasonable variation of a Portkey Charm. In a manner of speaking, although it is a stretch, this is still time activated, but the time it activates is as soon as there is someone to transport, in other words, WHEN is when you touch it, until then there is nothing to transport, and the Time, once again, is NOW. So, again by a stretch of the imagination, touch activated is just a variation of time activate. So, the various applications and various activation methods of the Portkey we see in the book, are nothing more than that, common, reasonable, and logical variations on a theme. As far as Mr. Weasley's description of the portkey to Harry as the walk up the Stoatshead Hill, Arthur is simplifying a complicated explanation to fit the circumstances. Instead of going into the complete detailed long extended lecture on the nature and application of Portkeys, he simply explains how their Portkey will work. All other methods are, in a sense, just variations of that method. I see no inconsistency, just variations on a theme. Certainly, if I were inventing the Portkey Charm, these are reasonable and logical variation I would want to build in. Just a thought. bboy_mn From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Fri Feb 27 20:36:44 2004 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:36:44 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91749 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: (big, big snips) > Now I agree, Peter is not quite the fool everyone takes him for. > He knows that as soon as he's played out his part, he's toast. > He's been told to let Black catch up with him in a crowded place, > shout "Lily and James, how could you?" and kill Black. Little > Peter, the hero, Order of Merlin, first class. But he guesses the > real plan will be for someone to make it look like Black killed > *him*. Peter foils the plan by cutting off his finger (he could have > done that *before* he let Black catch up with him) and > transforming into a rat. The curse which was intended to destroy > him misses and disposes of twelve unfortunate Muggles > instead. I have a big timing problem with this. I may be misunderstanding you, but y= ou do mean that Peter narrowly escaped some explosion curse by transforming into a rat= , right? Well, wouldn't that be very difficult for him to do at the exactly right time? Un= less the person who cast the curse shouted at him before he cast it, which doesn't seem ver= y probable, Peter could just as well have turned into a rat too soon or too late, and t= hat would have spoiled everything. Please explain. :) Eva, who is kind of amused by the thought of Peter triumphantly transformin= g into a rat ("ha ha!") to escape an explosion that never comes (" huh?") From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 27 20:45:37 2004 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:45:37 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91750 Here are my thoughts on some of your premises. Some of these points are as obscure to me as they are to you, so it makes no sense to quote them just to say, "I have no clue." --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > 3. So far as we know, Hagrid (sent by DD?) is first on the scene. > Why Hagrid? Wouldn't an Auror be more logical given that the Potters were a > known target of Voldy and his DEs? I (Alshain) think this is about the general climate in the magical community at the moment of Voldemort's death and the manner in which the Potters were killed. For all Dumbledore knew, a person who was almost a brother to James had betrayed him, and to rescue Harry he sent someone in whom he had absolute trust (let's save arguing whether hagrid is worthy of this trust to another tread, please?) > 4. Sirius arrives. He later states that he went to check up on Peter and found > him gone, so he then went to the Potter house, saw the wreckage and their > bodies. > > 5. He immediately suspects Peter - *but tells no-one!* > Come on! Pull the other one, it's got bells on. Yes, well, he's the prime suspect. Four persons knew he wasn't the secret keeper, and two of them were dead. Why would anyone believe him long enough to administer Veritaserum, the use of which is heavily regulated by the Ministry? As far as they're concerned, they have the traitor in their hands. Of course he's going to plead not guilty. > 6. At the Shrieking Shack Sirius tells us that the DEs in Azkaban accept > that Peter betrayed the Potters. The DEs also assumed that Peter betrayed > Voldy, but was now presumed to be dead. > So how come it was a secret to the rest of the WW? Why would the DEs hide > his role in the affair? I ask again, would anyone believe them? Most people in the high- security section probably went mad within weeks. And what would they gain by telling? As for the ones who had managed to stay out of Azkaban, would they incriminate themselves by confessing that they knew anything about Voldemort's plans? Alshain From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Fri Feb 27 21:09:37 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:09:37 -0000 Subject: (FILK) The Class (Sensational! Sensational!) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91751 Putting all humility aside, I have to say that I am quite pleased with the way this filk turned out. The Class (Sensational! Sensational!) A filk by Gail B. to the tune _The Pitch (Spectacular! Spectacular!_ from the movie Moulin Rouge The basis of this tune comes from The Can Can from Orph?e Aux Enfers by Jacques Offenbach with tiny snippets from (1) The Sound of Music by Rodgers & Hammerstein and (2) Your Song by Elton John. In this filk, the word "Sensational" is defined as: "arousing or tending to arouse (as by lurid details) a quick, intense and usually superficial interest, curiosity, or emotional reaction." - Webster's Dictionary (Professor Binns is reading from his notes in a flat drone which has put everyone inside the classroom into a deep stupor. Hermione then raises her hand...) Prof. Binns: Yes, Miss...er...? Hermione: Granger, Professor. I was wondering if you could tell us anything about the Chamber of Secrets? (Students start perking up with interest) Prof. Binns: (in a bombastic voice) Sensational! Sensational! It isn't educational This legend of which you speak The evidence is very weak So, there's good reason to critique Although, there's a certain mystique (singing) It's not fact, naturally I deal with only history Hermione: (speaking) Please, sir, don't legends always have a basis in fact? (The rest of the students gaze intently first at Hermione, then at Prof. Binns in expectation. Then, quickly (chhh, chhh, chhh) they stand up from out of their seats and start singing in chorus...) Chorus: We're all intrigued, hanging upon every word We're not fatigued, it's the best thing that we've heard We're all intrigued, hanging upon every word We're not fatigued, it's the best thing that we've heard Dean: Hogwarts School Lavender: The Four Founders Neville: Disunity Ron: Hidden chambers Parvati: Growing rifts Harry: And arguments Seamus: Hate of those from All: Muggle parents Hufflepuff and Gryffindor Slytherin Hermione: And Ravenclaw Dean: Chamber sealed Lavender: Horror within Chorus: And the true heir of Slytherin! We're all intrigued, hanging upon every word We're not fatigued, it's the best thing that we've heard We're all intrigued, hanging upon every word We're not fatigued, it's the best thing that we've heard Prof. Binns: Sensational, sensational! It isn't educational This legend of which you speak The evidence is very weak Chorus: (1) The halls vandalized with threats against Mud-bloods We're all intrigued, hanging upon every word We're not fatigued, it's the best thing that we've heard We're all intrigued, hanging upon every word We're not fatigued, it's the best thing that we've heard Prof. Binns: (reluctantly giving in to the persistence of the class) Salazar and Gryffindor Bitterly fought, but local folklore Says Slyth'rin a Chamber made And there his foul monster stayed Harry: (2) It's a little bit scary, this voice that I heard Chorus: We're all intrigued, hanging upon every word We're not fatigued, it's the best thing that we've heard We're all intrigued, hanging upon every word We're not fatigued, it's the best thing that we've heard Prof. Binns: The Chamber will remain sealed Until the true Heir is revealed He'll free the beast, and with it Purge the school of those "unfit" (Fred and George immediately burst into the classroom and rush over to mess around with Harry) Fred and George: (speaking, theatrically) Make way for the heir of Slytherin, seriously evil wizard coming though! (Percy, as Prefect, pokes his head into the classroom to yell at his brothers) Percy: This is not a laughing matter! Fred (George giggling): Well, we think it is! Chorus (including Fred and George): (singing) It's a monster, putting Muggle-borns at risk Causing a stir - Hermione: (speaking) Could it be a Basilisk? (The whole class becomes suddenly quiet as all turn and look at Hermione for a moment before starting to sing again) Chorus: We're all intrigued, hanging upon every word We're not fatigued, it's the best thing that we've heard Prof. Binns: speaking The whole thing is arrant nonsense, of course. ::cough:: -Gail B. From kathryn-jones at comcast.net Fri Feb 27 21:35:03 2004 From: kathryn-jones at comcast.net (jmjklj) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:35:03 -0000 Subject: Where is Pettigrew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91752 I've been following the Lupin conspiracy thread put forth by Pippin, and I'm afraid to ask a silly question. *Where* is Pettigrew? Is the last time we see him in the graveyard? What if he was killed then, and that's why I can't recall him in OOP. Sorry if I missed something obvious here. -KTG From pjcousins at btinternet.com Fri Feb 27 23:03:00 2004 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:03:00 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91753 I am following the theories on this topic with great interest. However I think how the news of the attack on Godric's Hollow became known, not only to Hagrid, Dumbledore, McGonagall, but to the wizarding world at large is crucial. Remember PS, SS opens with Vernon Dursley noticing odd things on his way to work. The WW is celebrating from early in the morning! How do they all know with such confidence that Voldemort is vaporised ? Answer: They have read about it in that morning's Daily Prophet. There must have been a witness to the event(s). Harry himself is too young to give any information. I don't think Dumbledore was present because I doubt he would want the news released so quickly. For the Daily Prophet to 'print' the story so quickly points to either Fudge or Rita Skeeter being present. Fudge has the most to gain and enjoys influence of the Prophet. If Skeeter had scooped the story surely she would be chief reporter when she appears in GoF, rather than "Attractive blonde Rita Skeeter, forty-three, ...". If Pettigrew and/or Sirius were the witness the news would not have become public so quickly. Fudge is also present for the arrest of Sirius Black. Pettigrew could well be keeping Fudge informed or they are team mates, both Death Eaters. Fudge getting the dementor to 'Kiss' Crouch Junior in GoF prevents Crouch Junior giving any further testimony, keeping Fudge's (and perhaps Pettigrew's and others) activities secret. Phil From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Feb 27 23:17:00 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:17:00 -0000 Subject: Where is Pettigrew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91754 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmjklj" wrote: > I've been following the Lupin conspiracy thread put forth by Pippin, > and I'm afraid to ask a silly question. > > *Where* is Pettigrew? > > Is the last time we see him in the graveyard? What if he was killed > then, and that's why I can't recall him in OOP. Jen: Pettigrew is mysteriously absent. No character development, no clues to his whereabouts...just gone. Sirius mentioned him once, commenting that his Padfoot disguise was useless after Pettigrew leaked the information to LV. (As a side note, I find it interesting PP didn't leak this info to LV during the first war when he was spying on the Order. Surely the illegal animagi used their ability to thwart LV and this would be valuable information to pass to LV.) I've read several theories about PP's absence, from acting as a spy inside Hogwarts (as Wormtail), to playing Polyjuice!Percy while the real Percy is locked up somewhere. I tend to think he left LV. He's such a little toady, but at the same time his safety is the most important thing. Pettigrew's not incompetent by any means and after all those years as a rat, he must know places he can hide safely. He'll reappear, though. He has a part in several unresolved story lines, esp. the night at Godric's Hollow, the silver hand and the life-debt to Harry. Jen From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 23:28:57 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:28:57 -0000 Subject: What about next year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91755 Sue wrote: With all of this talk about prefects, I began to wonder about Next years new prefects. SNIP What about Ginny? Potioncat: Ginny will make it. Ron will be in a mix then! That will mean everyone in the Weasley family made prefects. Potioncat (and you call yourself our mother!) I guess that makes Fred and George next-door neighbors? Carol From t.forch at mail.dk Fri Feb 27 23:57:51 2004 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 00:57:51 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time turner question In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20040226223143.02b42910@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040228005319.02c8f7e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 91756 At 03:23 27-02-04 +0000, Robert Jones wrote: >But I still do not understand the Patronus problem. "Old Harry" sees >the Patronus and so "Time-Traveling Harry" can later remember that >he can produce it. "I knew I could do it this time because I'd >already done it." But neither Old Harry or Time-Traveling Harry had >done it before. Harry had seen himself do it - once he realised that the person he saw by the lake was himself, he also knew with absolute certainty that he had indeed seen himself cast the Patronus Charm. >And desparating arguing that Hermione was mistaken in what she said to >Harry or that the Ministry of Magic told McGonagall to lie to Hermione >to keep her from abusing time-travel (I've read that elsewhere) doesn't >change that fact. I prefer to believe Hermione's information wrong rather than accept an internal inconsistency (allowing changes to the past would create plot-holes large enough to pass not only Hannibal and his elephants through, but the Alps as well). That is merely a matter of personal priority. /Troels From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 23:58:45 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:58:45 -0000 Subject: Where is Pettigrew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91757 wrote: > > I've been following the Lupin conspiracy thread put forth by > Pippin, > > and I'm afraid to ask a silly question. > > > > *Where* is Pettigrew? > > > > Is the last time we see him in the graveyard? What if he was > killed > > then, and that's why I can't recall him in OOP. > > > Jen: Pettigrew is mysteriously absent. No character development, no > clues to his whereabouts...just gone. Sirius mentioned him once, > commenting that his Padfoot disguise was useless after Pettigrew > leaked the information to LV. > > > I've read several theories about PP's absence, from acting as a spy > inside Hogwarts (as Wormtail), to playing Polyjuice!Percy while the > real Percy is locked up somewhere. > > I tend to think he left LV. He's such a little toady, but at the > same time his safety is the most important thing. Pettigrew's not > incompetent by any means and after all those years as a rat, he must > know places he can hide safely. He'll reappear, though. He has a > part in several unresolved story lines, esp. the night at Godric's > Hollow, the silver hand and the life-debt to Harry. Neri pipes in: As a rat with a silver paw he might be a bit conspicuous. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 28 00:06:18 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 00:06:18 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: <000401c3fcb2$c9292140$5c4e6751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91758 Ffred wrote: Hagrid emerges from the wreckage having rescued Harry. Sirius now appears on his bike, hotfoot from discovering that Peter has gone AWOL. They talk, argue about who should take Harry, and then go their separate ways: Hagrid and Harry to go into limbo for 24 hours and Sirius to pursue Peter. So. Why doesn't Sirius explain to Hagrid that Peter was the secret keeper and the traitor? If he had, then he'd be in the clear and there'd be no question of Azkaban. Peter would have found it impossible to frame Sirius and disappear to commune with his rodent side for the next 10 years, and the Dark Lord's return would have been made that much more difficult. Sirius really does bring it all on himself, don't you think? Carol: I think Sirius quite intentionally "brings it all on himself." First off, we don't know that Hagrid knew anything about Sirius being the ostensible Secret Keeper. I think if he'd mentioned it, Sirius would have mentioned Peter. In any case, when Sirius discovered that he wasn't going to be able to act as godfather to Harry because Dumbledore had other plans, he must have felt that he had nothing more to lose. He gave Hagrid his bike saying that he wouldn't need it any more. Why not? Because being Sirius--reckless and angry to the point of near-insanity--he was ready to risk death or Azkaban to kill the traitorous ex-friend who had ruined his life. I don't think he wanted to be "in the clear." He wanted revenge. We saw the same side of him in PoA. All he wanted to do was escape Azkaban to commit the murder he'd already served twelve years for, and it didn't matter what people thought. He slashed a portrait and Ron's bed curtains and came after a rat with a twelve-inch knife. Did he think Scabbers was going to morph into Peter in a room full of sleeping boys so he could murder him properly? Sirius, IMO, has always had serious problems with emotional and possibly mental instability, manifested in his teens by his lazy, arrogant desire to be entertained by James's abuse of Severus and especially by the so-called Prank and again in PoA and OoP by the risks he takes and the value he places on risk-taking, which he mistakes for courage. That he would leave the scene of Godric's Hollow determined to murder Peter without telling anyone doesn't surprise me at all, nor does his insane laughter as the aurors take him away or his failure to defend himself when Crouch pronounced him guilty without the benefit of a trial. Carol From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sat Feb 28 01:34:12 2004 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 01:34:12 -0000 Subject: FILK: Inkum Dinkum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91759 This one is to dedicated to Haggridd - feel better soon, Big Guy! To the tune of The Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weenie Yellow Polka-Dot Bikini. Here's a great midi of this old favorite tune: http://www.hamienet.com/2841.mid Inkum Dinkum The Dursleys have got a new baby His pictures are up on the wall He's powdered and diapered but maybe Mostly looks like a pink basketball Four, three, two, listen to them cootchie coo! They call him "Ickle Wickle Cuddly Wuddly Inkum Dinkum Snookum Dudley" When he's kicking his mum by the door. Then "Topkin Mopkin Mummers Mudders Winkle Dinkle Popkin Dudders" When he throws porridge all over the floor. Petunia's not happy they picked her To be Harry's surrogate mum At the zoo there's a boa constrictor That he sic'ed on her Number One son Two, three, four, stick around we'll tell you more They called him "Ickle Wickle Cuddly Wuddly Inkum Dinkum Snookum Dudley" When he refused to go pick up the mail. Then "Topkin Mopkin Mummers Mudders Winkle Dinkle Popkin Dudders" When a half-giant gave him a tail. When Dudley had grown to a Laddie On a diet of Junk food and pies His backside had filled out so flabby That Smeltings did not have his size. Four, Six, Eight, Mummy watches Dudley's plate She serves him Itsy bitsy teeny weenie diet portions of zuchini No potatoes or sweets on his plate. But lettuce, turnips, broccolini, now and then a stringy beanie That's when Dudders began to lose weight. Now he's vandalizing playgrounds He pretends to be at tea He's beating up on children Gangster pals call him Big D. >From the baby to the bully He's as bad as he can get To the juvenile delinquent And the story ain't done yet. They called him "Ickle Wickle Cuddly Wuddly Inkum Dinkum Snookum Dudley" When he feinted outside Number Four. Then "Topkin Mopkin Mummers Mudders Winkle Dinkle Popkin Dudders" When he upchucked all over the door. They'll call him "Ickle Wickle Cuddly Wuddly Inkum Dinkum Snookum Dudley" When someday he's in front of a judge Then "Topkin Mopkin Mummers Mudders Winkle Dinkle Popkin Dudders" Better hope that the name isn't Fudge. ~ Constance Vigilance From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sat Feb 28 02:56:37 2004 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 02:56:37 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91760 Carol wrote: I still think he cast the > spell to fake his death and frame Sirius, then transformed into a rat > (somehow managing to leave a bloody cloak behind as well). It always > seemed to me just a little too neat that he could blow up the Muggles > *and* leave a finger behind. Thanks for giving me a new perspective. > Constance Vigilance (me): Actually, I've been wondering about that. If he blew up a gaggle of muggles, I presume there is human carnage all about. It must have been pretty messy to have it be acceptable that PP would be completely missing other than one recovered digit. There must have been bits of 12 people there. How would they have been able to identify a finger as one Peter Pettigrew? Did they have his DNA or fingerprints on file? Constance Vigilance From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 28 03:11:02 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 03:11:02 -0000 Subject: Digest Number 4283 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91761 So, why would JKR do all this explanation and demonstration of how a > portkey worked (she named the whole chapter after one!), and then have > the Triwizard Cup transport Harry/Cedric when they *touched* it? I > don't have an answer for this; just being rhetorical. > > :: Entropy :: That, Entropy was *exactly* my original question! Thank you, I feel vendicated. And in looking forward at the other responding post, I see that Steve has again laid out his explanation, it is excellent. Sue From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 28 06:49:12 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 06:49:12 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91762 Snip about PP and Sirius > Sirius, IMO, has always had serious problems with emotional and > possibly mental instability, manifested in his teens by his lazy, > arrogant desire to be entertained by James's abuse of Severus and > especially by the so-called Prank and again in PoA and OoP by the > risks he takes and the value he places on risk-taking, which he > mistakes for courage. That he would leave the scene of Godric's Hollow > determined to murder Peter without telling anyone doesn't surprise me > at all, nor does his insane laughter as the aurors take him away or > his failure to defend himself when Crouch pronounced him guilty > without the benefit of a trial. > > Carol I don't share your view of Sirius. I will give you that he certainly was arrogant and obnoxious, but I think it is a leap to call him mentally unstable. It would be just as easy to shuffle through the books and say the same about Snape (er, Professor Snape). We have the information from the pensive about Sirius, but we still do not know all of the circumstances surrounding the "prank" or the precurser to what happened after OWL's, no excuse for their behavior, it just might be interesting to find out what their last exchange had entailed. We are only given isolated incidents, from a chapter called "Snapes Worst Memory". We have no idea what might appear in "Sirius' Worst Memory". I would also add that the "prank" IIRC was limited to Sirius telling Snape how to prod the knot at the bottom of the tree and follow Lupin if he wanted to know what the Marauders were up to. It was Snape who made the decision to go there and he therefore shares some culpability for the result. He did, after all, know it was against school rules to go near the Whomping Willow. I would see it as more maniacal if Sirius had physically lead him to a place where Severus believed he was safe, said "stay here, I'll come back for you later. Oh, you don't need your wand I'll take it for you." and then stepped aside for the rampaging werewolf to attack. As for telling Hagrid about Peter, it was stupid that he didn't. I can see how compelled he would have been to find Peter and bring him to justice. There is no canon to support the idea that Sirius went to kill PP the day he disappeared. Sirius only went to find him and confront him. He clearly underestimated Peter, first by making him Secret Keeper and then again by thinking he could take Peter by himself. IMO, his laughter while being arrested was of the incredulous sort. "How could I have been so stupid. Of course, he has been playing us for fools for years. And we never doubted him." In losing Lilly and James (and Peter too, to a certain extent) Sirius had lost his entire family. He had already lost his first family because he did not share their beleifs and now he had lost everyone else. Not only that, but he felt totally responsible, it was he who had suggested PP as Secret Keeper in the first place. If the trial took place within only a few days, what would he care if he went to Azkaban, what would he care about anything? During his days at Hogwarts, he was a kid. Many athletic, smart, good looking boys are also risk takers (many boys who aren't all of the above are risk takers too). The problem with Sirius now is that he basically came into manhood in prison. These people were young when all of this happened. Sirius has had very little opportunity to discover for himself who he is and what he really wants in life and even less to actually make any of it happen. It is no wonder he lives vicariously through Harry. It is at the end of GoF, after all, that Dumbledore says "I trust you both." to Severus and Sirius. It was time to set aside old differences. If we can make the leap with Severus, why not Sirius? Sue, who hopes beyond hope that when the whole story is wrapped up Harry will discover that at least a few of the adults he trusted diserved it. Especially Sirius Black. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 28 07:08:37 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 07:08:37 -0000 Subject: Potters - A question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91763 Bookworm wrote: > My theory is that Snape was the eavesdropper in the Hogs Head. He > didn't tell LV about the prophecy right away, working instead with > Dumbledore. During that year, Dumbledore worked with the Potters > and Longbottoms to establish protection charms for their babies. > As members of the Order, they would have known that they were in > danger anyway, so having this warning gave them time to prepare. > When things were ready, Dumbledore sent Snape to tell LV about the > (partial) prophecy and the Potters and Longbottoms went into hiding. Siriusly Snapey Susan now: My question, then, RB, would be *why* the "time was right" for Snape to go to LV? If he was indeed the one who overheard, yet managed to keep that information from LV for all that time that he worked w/ DD, then why EVER go give the info to Voldy? Do you see what I'm asking? If he could keep it from him for a year, why couldn't he keep it from him forever? Bookworm: Voldemort would be concerned about the loyalties of Death Eaters, with possibly a few exception, when they weren't under his constant supervision. I think that Snape contacted Dumbledore, but made Voldemort think he was doing it to spy for the Death Eaters. After a year with Snape working independently, Voldemort would be getting a bit antsy and would want something to show for it. Snape gave it to Voldemort, but at a time of Dumbledore's choice, not Voldemort's. Remember one of the missing Death Eaters is one Voldemort "believed to have left me forever." If that person is Snape, Voldemort suspects that he has been betrayed, but isn't sure yet. When someone is acting as a double agent, the agent has to feed information to both sides. Presumably the information going to the "other" side is either incomplete, or misleading. If we consider the idea that Snape is a double agent, in this scenario at least, Voldemort and the Death Eaters are now the "other" side. If you believe in the theory of Dumbledore as Spymaster you can see how Dumbledore is setting things up the way he wants them. Until the attack on the Potters, no one knew whether Harry or Neville was the One. One could even argue that until Harry was marked with the scar, *neither* Harry nor Neville was the One. But to get back to the issue, nothing can happen with the Prophecy until the One is marked. Dumbledore set things up with the Potters and Longbottoms so they were prepared when Dumbledore provoked Voldemort's attack by giving him the partial prophecy. Prophecies are funny things. If Dumbledore had done nothing, the prophecy would still likely have been set in motion. In this scenario, Harry (and possibly Neville, too) grows up with his parents, enters Hogwarts, becomes noticed by Death Eaters and the children of Death Eaters for having some remarkable talent. But no One has been marked, so is it? Always quick to recognize a rival, Voldemort tries to recruit Harry who has been taught to hate the Dark Arts by his father. Harry says, no thanks. Voldemort attacks Harry. Harry is young, partially trained, not-necessarily hardened by the loss of parents and suffering during his childhood that are not ? now ? part of his personal story, and does not have the protection given to him by the sacrifice of his mother. Harry is killed before he is capable of defeating Voldemort. IMO, this is the kind of thinking Dumbledore would have done when choosing between possible actions. (Since we don't know what, if anything, has happened to Neville to make him the way he is, an alternate scenario might have marked Neville as the One.) It's a longer response than I intended to write at this late hour, but does this answer your question? Ravenclaw Bookworm From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 21:58:27 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:58:27 -0000 Subject: Where is Pettigrew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91764 KTG wrote: > I've been following the Lupin conspiracy thread put forth by Pippin, > and I'm afraid to ask a silly question. > > *Where* is Pettigrew? > > Is the last time we see him in the graveyard? What if he was killed > then, and that's why I can't recall him in OOP. > Antosha: Actually, I kept waiting for Wormtail to show up in OotP--no show, unless a) I missed him or b) he was present but unnamed, disguised or hidden. I suppose it's understandable that he's absent, since he seems to be LV's toady, always at the Dark Lord's side, from the beginning of GoF. I wonder if it was Peter that LV was possessing during all of those perambulations through the DoM? Nah--Peter's capture or discovery in the Ministry would be only slightly less disastrous to the Dark Lord's plans than that of LV himself. And having the sniveling Peter Pettigrew show up for the climactic battle between LV, DD, Bellatrix and Harry would have been... sloppy. I mean, what would he have done? Spent a lot of time whining and ducking? I think his absence may also have had to do with the a couple of authorial needs. First of all, there was such a flood of baddies at the end of OotP (as at the end of GoF) that JKR didn't want to overload us with too many people to remember/dislike. She had a couple of DE cannon-fodder types chasing around (red shirts, for those of you whose fandom goes back to Star Trek: TOS days), but for the most part the focus is on our old friend Lucius Malfoy and his sister-in-law, the really icky Bellatrix Black LeStrange. I think the other reason that Peter is absent from the fifth book is that he is destined (if I may use that term) to play a pivotal role in one or both of the last two books. I'm hoping we don't go too far in the Gollum-like direction but I assume that we're going to get some sort of resolution of the unfinished business between Peter and Harry, Peter and Remus (last remaining Marauders), and Peter and Ron--I mean, come on, the man spent more than three years in the boy's pocket; you're going to tell me Ron doesn't feel betrayed? Antosha, hoping that Wormtail gets what's coming to him sooner, rather than later From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 22:01:19 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:01:19 -0000 Subject: What about next year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91765 Sue wrote: > > With all of this talk about prefects, I began to wonder about Next > > years new prefects. > >SNIP< > > What about Ginny? > > > > > Any takers? > > Sue > > Potioncat wrote: > Ginny will make it. Ron will be in a mix then! That will mean > everyone in the Weasley family made prefects. > Uh, what about the twins??? I don't know if I could stand Colin being made prefect. He's so... ANNOYING. But I agree about Ginny... From ghargis at mymail.indstate.edu Sat Feb 28 04:30:30 2004 From: ghargis at mymail.indstate.edu (ghargis at mymail.indstate.edu) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 04:30:30 -0000 Subject: Draco as prefect (Was: Ron as prefect... and then some) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91766 jeanico2000 says: > Dumbledore, who is supposed to know his students well, appointed a > Slytherin prefect who is a proven bully and who's father is a Death > Eater! Were there no other deserving students in Slytherin House? > Shame on Dumbledore! > You also have to realize that Dumbledore would hear it from Lucius if Draco was not given that position. Lucius, as I remember from CoS, got Dumbledore out of power at Hogwarts for a short while. And that only shows a part of his influence. Not that this would scare Dumblerdore, but it might have an impact on letting this go through. Igina (yes I'm new) From merrperr at pacbell.net Sat Feb 28 09:47:40 2004 From: merrperr at pacbell.net (merrperr) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:47:40 -0000 Subject: The Portraits Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91767 It's been interesting following all the "is Sirius dead or is he not" theories. I started to wonder about the portraits and if Sirius might be able to "come back" in that form (provided there is a portrait of him somewhere). In post 91570, Carol mentioned "preserving memories in portraits" so I assume the magical properties of the portraits have been discussed before. Although IMO Sirius is (sadly) dead, could Harry still have him as a confidant in tbe form of a portrait? From reynacubana19 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 19:14:08 2004 From: reynacubana19 at yahoo.com (Julia Reyes) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:14:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040227191408.23322.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91768 a_reader2003: > > Is anyone else as irritated as me that Harry and Hermione didn't just > > floo out of Umbridge's office straight to Grimmauld Place, instead of > > wasting all that time being caught and riding thestrals to disaster > > in the MoM ? Julie R.: I am a novice with this community so I hope I am replying correctly. With the matter of using the Floo powder instead thestrals, the Floo network was being watched at the time. If DA wanted to rescue SB without the Ministry of Magic finding out they would have had to take an alternate route. From silmariel at telefonica.net Sat Feb 28 11:26:21 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:26:21 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200402281226.21383.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 91769 Kneasy asked: <<2. Somebody informs the interested parties, which probably means DD and the Order, but let's not forget that the rest of the WW heard almost as quickly. Who? Who was there and got the word out?>> 1. They had Wizard neighbours who could hear the muggles moving towards J&L house. An almost demolished house attracts a lot of noisy muggles, so wizards might notice. 2. The mirror that Sirius gave to Harry, might be used to have the house monitored without still knowing its location. Kneasy: > > 4. Sirius arrives. He later states that he went to check up on Peter and found him gone, so he then went to the Potter house, saw the wreckage and their bodies. > > 5. He immediately suspects Peter - *but tells no-one!* > > Come on! Pull the other one, it's got bells on. > Alshain: > Yes, well, he's the prime suspect. Four persons knew he wasn't the > secret keeper, and two of them were dead. Why would anyone believe > him long enough to administer Veritaserum, the use of which is > heavily regulated by the Ministry? As far as they're concerned, they > have the traitor in their hands. Of course he's going to plead not > guilty. I understand the reasoning behind Sirius as prime suspect, but we know who was the Secret Keeper. I can justify how the news of the Potter's demise reached the public opinion, but I don't know how it can include the general knowledge that Sirius was the supossed SK ergo guilty, how many people should new that? I thought Sirius was clean till PP shouted "Lily and James, how could you?" so in point 5, yes I do ask why he didn't tell Hagrid when he had the chance if he was innocent. Why was the Secret Keeper a necessity so late in the story? Do Lily refusing to stay out of the way 3 times are 3 defiances? silmariel From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Feb 28 11:43:26 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 06:43:26 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as prefect (Was: Ron as prefect... and then some) Message-ID: <87.66101f3.2d71d8de@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91770 In a message dated 2/28/2004 6:30:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, ghargis at mymail.indstate.edu writes: You also have to realize that Dumbledore would hear it from Lucius if Draco was not given that position. Lucius, as I remember from CoS, got Dumbledore out of power at Hogwarts for a short while. And that only shows a part of his influence. ================ Sherrie here: IIRC, at the end of CoS Lucius has been removed from the Board of Governors - after all the other Governors revolted against him and called Dumbledore back from exile. And now he's a revealed DE - though one wonders how Fudge will react to him once he gets out of Azkaban (as of course he will)... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 28 12:20:51 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:20:51 -0000 Subject: Stubby Boardman Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91771 I wish JKR (or Luna) had come up with another name than Stubby for the missing Black (Sirius or Regulus). Every time the name comes up I get this image of the great Stubby Kaye. Anything less like the lean and hungry Sirius (and presumably Regulus) it would be difficult to imagine. Sylvia From sophierom at yahoo.com Sat Feb 28 13:17:30 2004 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 13:17:30 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91772 Pippin writes: "Usually JKR admits her Flints with cheerful chagrin. She's acknowledged that she once thought boa constrictors were poisonous, that ancestor/descendant was a muddle, that good ole Marcus spent an extra year at Hogwarts. But the wand order correction was made stealthily, and many people felt that the original passage was stronger. So why not just apologize openly or else write the mistake into the story somehow? "The consensus on the list was that priori incantatem will be referred to again, and it will be important for it to operate as originally described. And of course JKR said there was a huge clue on that page. It wasn't the James Lily swap. So what was it?" Sophierom: Being relatively new to this list, I've never heard this before. Can you tell me where JKR talks about this "huge clue?" What I found interesting about the scene where Harry's wand forces priori incantatem on LV's wand is how all the echoes/ghosts "hissed" at LV and how "livid with fear" LV was. (GOF Am. ed., paperback, 667) The only other times I remember LV's fear being discussed is whenever characters say that Dumbledore is the only one LV fears. I wonder if Dumbledore will purposely let himself be killed by LV so that in the final confrontation, when Harry and LV's wands meet again, Dumbledore can emerge as part of the priori incantatem. According to the prophecy, only Harry (if he is the "one") can vanquish LV. If Harry forces priori incantatem, then aren't the ghost-like figures part of his spell work? Whatever they do to LV would be part of Harry's destruction of him. I don't know what the ghost-like figures were hissing, but perhaps Dumbledore, along with LV's many other victims, could actually do something more than just scare LV. Again, in the GOF graveyard scene, JKR writes that the echoes were "closing in" on Voldemort (668). In that scene, the echoes are only strong and numerous enough to provide Harry with the time to escape. If Harry had been healthy and more confident, could the echoes have done something more? If not, why was LV so afraid of them? Could echoes serve a similar role to dementors? Could they actually suck LV's soul out of him? Or, perhaps being less "demon like" these echoes could instead simply suck the magic out of LV and leave him, as many others have suggested, to become what he hates most, a muggle? Okay, enough incoherent rambling from me. Sophierom, who, having just reread GOF and OotP, is dying for Book 6, even though it's probably still at least a year away! From alison.williams at virgin.net Sat Feb 28 17:14:04 2004 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (Alison) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:14:04 -0000 Subject: Where is Pettigrew? In-Reply-To: <1077985110.6793.28988.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040228171409.OQIQ26893.mta4-svc.business.ntl.com@your0q6xoyg76x> No: HPFGUIDX 91773 In re-reading PoA (for which my excuse - this time - is that I am fixing the real story firmly in my mind in order to avoid any possible movie contamination) a particular passage made me stop and think. "You haven't been hiding from *me* for twelve years," said Black. "You've been hiding from Voldemort's old supporters. I heard things in Azkaban, Peter ... they all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them ... I've heard them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters' on your information ... and Voldemort met his downfall there." [Chapter 19 - The Servant of Lord Voldemort. p.270 of the UK adult edition.] So DID the double-crosser double-cross his Master? Did he send him to the Potters' *knowing* that when he got there he'd be facing something that might just be powerful enough to finish him off? What did he know? "A flash of blue-white light erupted from both wands; for a moment, Scabbers was frozen in mid-air, his small black form twisting madly..." In books 6 and 7 Peter might well twist and turn as madly as a man as he ever did as a rat. Now that he owes his life to Harry he has an extra motivation for turning on Voldemort. If he knowingly betrayed him once before it would make it even more credible that he could do it again if it seemed to him that he might be able to squirm out of his Master's grip. Alison From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Feb 28 17:15:26 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:15:26 -0000 Subject: Draco as prefect (Was: Ron as prefect... and then some) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ghargis at m... wrote: > jeanico2000 says: Igina: > You also have to realize that Dumbledore would hear it from Lucius if > Draco was not given that position. Lucius, as I remember from CoS, got > Dumbledore out of power at Hogwarts for a short while. And that only > shows a part of his influence. > > Not that this would scare Dumblerdore, but it might have an impact on > letting this go through. Geoff: Yes, but bear in mind that when Dumbledore returned to the school at the end of COS he warned Lucius about his activities (in fact, did LM lose his governorship?). I do not think he was in any position to dictate to Dumbledore about Draco as a prefect or not. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 28 18:56:48 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:56:48 -0000 Subject: Crouch's motivation In-Reply-To: <005401c3fb43$b38f4f00$755f2f04@dslverizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne Dragon" wrote: > > He didn't show Harry's class the Unforgivables to help them...but more > likely because he knew that 1) It would probably scare the kids (especially > Harry--who has 'flashbacks' to his mom's death--something I suspect Voldy > might have an inkling of-- and scare Neville (as well as give him an > opportunity later to chum up to both kids to smooth over any 'bad' felings > either might have had in class)-who I'm sure every DE knew what was done to > his parents...). and 2) Crouch just wanted to mess around while he could. > > I doubt that it even occured to Crouch Jr. that it would really actaully > help Harry later > Not to mention, after 'teaching' them how to resist the Imperious Curse, he > can certainly go and tell Voldy just how strong each of those kids are > against the Imperious, now, can't he? *EG* Siriusly Snapey Susan: I'm lagging behind in reading posts but wanted to comment on this. I think this last is an excellent point. Crouch could possibly see which of his students showed an especial interest in [and maybe aptitude for?] the unforgivables. If *we're* all consumed w/ who could be the good Slytherin(s), isn't it also possible that Voldy is interested in the potential bad Hufflepuffs, Ravenclaws & Gryffindors? Siriusly Snapey Susan From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 28 19:49:00 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 19:49:00 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) References: <1077952126.7491.23445.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002801c3fe33$e9880aa0$5c4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 91776 Kneasy wrote: >OK, lets recap a few salient points, with questions. >2. Somebody informs the interested parties, which probably means DD and >the Order, but let's not forget that the rest of the WW heard almost as quickly. >Who? Who was there and got the word out? I've thought this over many times, but the only conclusion I can come up with is that DD had advance knowledge that the attack was coming. It would be easy to conclude from what Hagrid says in PS/SS and POA that DD sent him _after_ the event to get Harry out. But who could have told DD? The Potters? James tries to hold Voldemort off, Lily runs upstairs, scribbles a quick note, ties it to an owl, and chucks it out of the window. I would reject that one because of DD's response. The normal DE mode of operation is that Voldemort arrives with a clutch of his lieutenants and acolytes when they decide to commit an atrocity. When the Order arrive in OoP to escort Harry from Privet Drive, they come mob-handed. But DD sends (I would argue) a maximum of 3 people to confront Voldemort himself? Can't believe that he would waste his resources that way. Peter or another DE present? Just possibly, Peter could have tried to redeem himself by rescuing Harry and then alleging that Voldemort had kidnapped him and used Imperio to force him to reveal that he was the Secret Keeper. Unlikely but possible, always be questions over him but at least he goes free. Possibly the Fidelius is proof against Imperio. In the event Peter decides discretion is the better part of valour and runs for his life. I don't think he's highly regarded by the DEs anyway. If the full DE posse were there, then the books would never have been written anyway. When Voldemort doesn't emerge, in go the other DEs and find he's not there but Harry still is. "The Dark Lord isn't here, there must be some sort of protection on the child. Let's take a quick detour over the Irish Sea and drop him in a deepish part of it and rendezvous back at Malfoy Manor for a quick nightcap and a council of war on how we take our Glorious Cause forward from here". Harry goes to feed the mackerel and that's the end of the story. Snape or another member of the Order? Why tell DD and not rescue Harry while they're at it? A wizardly neighbour? Why tell DD? Unless they've been to Hogwarts themselves, he's just that guy on the Chocolate Frog cards. They'd tell the Ministry and the people who rescued Harry would be Fudge's cleanup team. So the only conclusion is that DD knew in advance. Kneasy again: >3. So far as we know, Hagrid (sent by DD?) is first on the scene. >Why Hagrid? Wouldn't an Auror be more logical given that the Potters were a >known target of Voldy and his DEs? It's a very good question. Hagrid's a good guy in a fight but sending him single handed against Voldemort is sending him to certain death. I can't escape the conclusion that DD sends at least one other person. No canon support, but possibly the Longbottoms are there too - they have an involvement with the Prophecy, and it could also explain why the DEs went for them later. When Sirius arrives, they are off stage somewhere, possibly patrolling to make sure there aren't any stray DEs around. But they then tell the Prophet and the Wireless what's happened in time for the early editions. They also tell DD. (It's clear from their conversation at the start of PS/SS that Hagrid and DD haven't spoken that day). But it's still far too few for a potential major fight. Why isn't DD there himself (as he was at the Ministry in OoP)? Even if (as I've argued elsewhere) he not only has foreknowledge of Voldemort's attack but also the fact that only Voldemort and Peter will be there, why not make a more serious attempt to save James and Lily's lives? We know how DD manipulates people and events according to his grand plan. Were James and Lily just "spares"? Kneasy again >6. At the Shrieking Shack Sirius tells us that the DEs in Azkaban accept >that Peter betrayed the Potters. The DEs also assumed that Peter betrayed >Voldy, but was now presumed to be dead. >So how come it was a secret to the rest of the WW? Why would the DEs hide >his role in the affair? I don't think that the DEs have any desire to pass on _any_ information about _anything_. After all, it's not going to get them out of Azkaban. Also, having accepted that Sirius was the traitor, why ask them. The one person who _would_ have known that Sirius wasn't the traitor and who didn't reveal the information was (of course) Snape, who I'm sure smirked inwardly when his tormentor from school was sent to prison for life. Revenge is a disk best eaten cold. Kneasy: >To stretch the envelope a bit, suppose what he has to hide is some sort >of association with Voldy, just as Peter suggested in the Shrieking Shack. >He'd really want to keep that quiet. Voldy was gone, James was dead, >Lily was dead - now who else needs tidying up? Ah, yes! Peter. >Grief-stricken friend hunts down filthy traitor and zaps him in the street. >Unfortunate but understandable. Poor chap. Too upset to call the Aurors >and get Pettigrew taken alive for questioning. >Now no-one need ever know. Lends a new dimension to the conversation in the graveyard, doesn't it? Just as DD had more than one spy in the DEs, it's quite believable that Voldemort had more than one traitor in the Order... But JKR alone know all Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Sat Feb 28 20:32:20 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:32:20 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: > Pippin writes: > "The consensus on the list was that priori incantatem will be > referred to again, and it will be important for it to operate as > originally described. And of course JKR said there was a huge > clue on that page. It wasn't the James Lily swap. So what was it?" > > Sophierom: > > Being relatively new to this list, I've never heard this before. Can > you tell me where JKR talks about this "huge clue?" > Ditto for me. This is the first time I've heard of that. > What I found interesting about the scene where Harry's wand forces > priori incantatem on LV's wand is how all the echoes/ghosts "hissed" > at LV and how "livid with fear" LV was. (GOF Am. ed., paperback, > 667) The only other times I remember LV's fear being discussed is > whenever characters say that Dumbledore is the only one LV fears. I > wonder if Dumbledore will purposely let himself be killed by LV so > that in the final confrontation, when Harry and LV's wands meet > again, Dumbledore can emerge as part of the priori incantatem. > According to the prophecy, only Harry (if he is the "one") can > vanquish LV. If Harry forces priori incantatem, then aren't the > ghost-like figures part of his spell work? Whatever they do to LV > would be part of Harry's destruction of him. > I wonder if LV's fear was from his returned victims prowling around or from the Phoenix song - supposed to strike fear into those who are not pure of heart. I just reread that page and the only things of significance I see are that LV was fearful, Lily interacted with Harry, or that they were able to give him time (not that I can catch all hints from JKR - she's sneaky!). Kristen P.S. I have found it interesting to go back and read old interviews with JKR on the Quick Quotes site - part of the Floo Network. She dropped a lot more hints before Harry became insanely popular. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Feb 28 22:08:34 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:08:34 -0000 Subject: Second Wandsman was Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91778 Kneasy: > OK, lets recap a few salient points, with questions. > > 1. House at Godrics Hollow wrecked in an explosion. > Explosion? From an AK? How did this happen? > Pippin: That's explained in OOP, where Voldemort fires a bunch of AK's at Harry and Dumbledore. The first one bounces off a golden statue, the second one sets a desk on fire, the third blasts a statue into a hundred pieces. We can surmise that if AK hits something that can't be killed the results are often violent. The AK that was aimed at Harry bounced off, leaving a wound and a psychic connection, hit Voldemort, who also couldn't be killed, vaporized his body and destroyed the house. Kneasy: > 2. Somebody informs the interested parties, which probably means DD and the Order, but let's not forget that the rest of the WW heard almost as quickly. Who? Who was there and got the word out?< Pippin: What if it was Voldemort? Fudge implies there was a declaration, which seems to have timed for the moment of the Potters' deaths, announcing that Sirius was a supporter of You-Know-Who. Well, if it was timed for the moment of the Potters' deaths it must have been prepared beforehand. What if Voldemort also sent owls to the offices of the Daily Prophet, and to Dumbledore himself, timed to arrive at the moment of the attack, announcing that he'd killed the Potters and their infant son at Godric's. At the same time another Owl arrives at the Ministry, announcing that Sirius Black is a DE, mwahahaha. But, the MOM being what it is, this one sits around for a few hours before anybody reads it. Naturally the Daily Prophet notifies the Ministry. The news spreads like wildfire. Reporters and ministry wizards converge on GH . Harry is found alive, and this is duly reported to Dumbledore as well, who immediately sends Hagrid to fetch him. (I don't know why they don't portkey back, but since each individual has to hold on, it might be dangerous if the infant let go.) In all the confusion Sirius, or somebody who looks like him, shows up with the motorcycle and tries to get Hagrid to give Harry to him. The very mention that the Potters are at GH tells Dumbledore that SK has been breached, but not how. He doesn't know about the announcement about Sirius till after he's sent Hagrid. And he knows Voldemort has framed people before, so he's cagey and doesn't question Hagrid about seeing Sirius in front of McGonagall, who wasn't an Order member at that time. Kneasy: >> 3. So far as we know, Hagrid (sent by DD?) is first on the scene. Why Hagrid? Wouldn't an Auror be more logical given that the Potters were a known target of Voldy and his DEs?<< Pippin: See above. Hagrid is undoubtedly loyal and highly magic resistant. Kneasy: > 4. Sirius arrives. He later states that he went to check up on Peter and found him gone, so he then went to the Potter house, saw the wreckage and their bodies. > > 5. He immediately suspects Peter - *but tells no-one!* > Come on! Pull the other one, it's got bells on. Pippin: *Did* Hagrid meet Sirius at Godric's Hollow? Or was it a DE disguised by polyjuice or metamorphmagic? Sirius never says anything about meeting Hagrid, you'll note. IMO, the real Sirius arrived at Godric's Hollow after Harry and Hagrid were gone, saw James and Lily's bodies, then took off in pursuit of Peter. He wasn't thinking very clearly, and he didn't know yet that he'd supposedly declared himself Voldemort's second in command. Nobody did, or he'd have been apprehended on the spot. Kneasy: > >6. At the Shrieking Shack Sirius tells us that the DEs in Azkaban accept that Peter betrayed the Potters. The DEs also assumed that Peter betrayed Voldy, but was now presumed to be dead. So how come it was a secret to the rest of the WW? Why would the DEs hide his role in the affair?<< Pippin: The DEs in Azkaban are assumed to be nutcases. DE's outside Azkaban are in hiding. Kneasy: > 7. Peter is well aware that Sirius knows the truth and that he, and anyone he told will be after him for explanations. He fakes his own death and kills others in addition. > I've always had trouble with this; it doesn't seem to match what we know about the AK curse. All other examples are aimed at single, targeted individuals and we have been told that you have to really mean it. Howcan Peter, not the sharpest chisel in the set, kill 13 people at random tha> he's not even looking at? Talk about weapons of mass destruction! But wait a moment! Sirius doesn't mention an AK. What he says is "...he blew apart the street with the wand behind his back..." Blew apart; remind you of something? Godrics Hollow. << Pippin: Exactly! Peter's just had a lively demonstration of what a missed AK can do. So when he's cornered, and the second wandsman is about to strike, Peter crosses his remaining fingers, and turns himself into a rat, just as the fatal words are being uttered. Maybe the curse will get him anyway. Maybe it will bounce harmlessly off the pavement, and wandsman will try again. But Peter gets lucky. The street explodes. Maybe the curse really did hit a gas main. The wandsman will know that the AK didn't hit its target. So maybe he frets a bit, but once the Ministry finds Peter's finger he relaxes. Talentless, luckless Peter, who didn't even have enough magic in him to protect him from an exploding gas main, got blown to bits..or so it appears. Pippin who really likes the idea that the wandsman is ESE!Lupin, but hasn't much proof that he was From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 28 22:19:24 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:19:24 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: <002801c3fe33$e9880aa0$5c4e6751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91779 Ffred writes: > Snape or another member of the Order? Why tell DD and not rescue > Harry while they're at it? Two words: 'heavy' and 'lifting'. The house was destroyed; I reckon it fell down on top of Harry (the mysterious wizarding ability to survive normal accidents protecting him from falling masonry). Wizards can make fairly largish objects fly through the air, but magically lifting an entire blitzed out house might be too much for even someone as powerful as Dumbledore. > Kneasy again: > >3. So far as we know, Hagrid (sent by DD?) is first on the scene. > >Why Hagrid? Wouldn't an Auror be more logical given that the > >Potters were a known target of Voldy and his DEs? And again we go back to - heavy lifting. Hagrid's *good* for lifting large chunks of house off people. Ffred: > The one person who _would_ have known that Sirius wasn't the > traitor and who didn't reveal the information was (of course) > Snape, who I'm sure smirked inwardly when his tormentor from > school was sent to prison for life. Revenge is a dish best eaten cold. Maybe. But Snape could have easily *not* known who the traitor was. If he'd been told by DD that Sirius was the Secret Keeper then only Sirius *could* be the betrayer. Peter might want to betray, but if he wasn't the Secret Keeper, he had no way of revealing the Secret. If Voldemort referred to the traitor as 'Wormtail', that might be Peter Pettigrew. Or it might be Sirius Black, using Peter's nickname as a cover name. Or both Sirius and Peter might be traitors. Sirius would know in Azkaban that he wasn't the traitor AND he wasn't the Secret Keeper - so 'Wormtail' had to be Peter. Snape and Dumbledore would know who the Secret Keeper was supposed to have been - so whether Sirius was working with Peter, or using his name for cover, to their knowledge the only one who could lead Voldemort to the Potters was Sirius. And then there's Remus Lupin ... maybe he was involved somehow? Sirius escapes from Azkaban (after being heard to say 'he's at Hogwarts'), Remus Lupin is hired as teacher, a rat with a missing toe is brought back for the new Hogwarts term. Dumbledore might be making sure that all three candidates for 'betrayer of the Potters' are together at last, mightn't he? ;-) Oh, and rats aren't on the approved pets list. How *did* Percy get permission to bring a rat to school? That one, particular rat. Pip!Squeak From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Feb 28 22:29:01 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:29:01 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91780 Tonya: >>If this were all true then where do YOU think that JKR is taking us?? Who could be the traitor?? and WHY??<< Well, the original Eversoevil!Lupin post is 39362. I have been tinkering with this idea for a while, as you can see. WHY is the big question--and a mark of JKR's storytelling craft. Concealing Lupin's motives preserves the mystery even for those of us hot on his trail. So what follows is of necessity highly speculative. 39362 posits Lupin as a gloating maniac, young Barty redux, but I admit even I have trouble with that. Anyway, OOP dragged a more interesting possibility across our path--politics. Lupin's comment in OOP that he's not a very popular dinner guest seems like an odd thing to say...which could mean it's a hint. It recalls the disastrous dinner party at the beginning of CoS, the one where Harry is invited to make no noise and pretend he's not there. A parallel is being drawn between the way the Dursleys treat Harry and the way the Wizarding World treats werewolves. As Harry told us, it's impossible to live with the Dursleys and not hate them. And hatred will out. Now Arthur is sure that the goblins who have suffered at Lord Voldemort's hands would never go over to him, but Lupin isn't : "I think it depends what they're offered," said Lupin. "And I'm not talking about gold; if they're offered freedoms we've been denying them for centuries they're going to be tempted." What could Voldemort offer the werewolves? I can just hear his recruiters claiming that he, like them, has been unjustly maligned, that he regrets the excesses committed in his name but it's only to be expected when people have been mistreated for centuries, that he deplores the loss of innocent life but he won't condemn those who have lost hope and turned to violence, that he's only the enemy of Muggles and Muggleborns, that it's a shame we purebloods have lost sight of our kinship with our magical brethren by polluting our heritage--I could go on. I've heard this kind of stuff in real life, unfortunately. Lies obviously, but desperate people will believe anything. And wolfsbane potion--there've been werewolves for centuries; why is it such a recent development? Surely that's an analogue for the "orphan drug" problem faced by MS sufferers like JKR's mother. Could it be that no one but Voldemort found it profitable to sponsor research into werewolves? The ministry doesn't care about werewolves as long as they're not drawing attention to themselves, but Voldemort would consider them his natural allies -- or slaves. A werewolf with a human mind controlled by the Imperius Curse could be a devastating weapon, not that Voldemort's recruiters would mention that . Really, instead of asking why Lupin betrayed the Order, we might ask why he joined it in the first place. Could it be that he, like Marietta, didn't really want to, but his friends expected it of him? It's James who's on fire to fight the Dark Arts. So Lupin joins, but his doubts persist. He talks to other werewolves, perhaps a bit incautiously when he's among his own kind, and he comes to the attention of Voldemort. Without realizing it, he's developed as an agent...and then one dark day, he has to choose. Well, that's one scenario. How he was recruited I don't know, but we know that Sirius and James became suspicious of him. And that, I think, is something Lupin could never forgive. I think he expected that Sirius at least would understand, would cover up for him, as I believe he did over the Prank. So he turned against Sirius with the wrath of a friend (or a lover?) betrayed, all the while wishing, as estranged friends often do, that he could somehow make things all right again. Of course before long Lupin discovered what Voldemort was. But it was too late. He had to go on spying or be exposed and face the consequences. Maybe he told himself if he rose high enough in the Dark Lord's favor he could come in time to alter his purposes, to control his course. Voldemort, Evil Overlord par excellence, knows how to encourage such beliefs while still maintaining his hold. So Lupin's not a psychopath--but it's canon that he's a champion at denial and rationalization. And his compassion may be genuine, but is it enough? Even Dumbledore has trouble caring for the fate of faceless strangers. And look at Hermione. Nobody would call her evil--yet. But she has a ruthless way with her enemies. She kidnapped and blackmailed Rita Skeeter, and the trick she played on Umbridge echoes The Prank all too closely. Her cleverness has backfired on her more than once. Suppose she inadvertently harmed an innocent person. She's a brave girl--she might be willing to admit it and take the consequences. But is Lupin as brave as she? I believe JKR writes as a closet Inkling, melding her Christian beliefs with the heroic tradition. For JKR, heart is the eighth virtue, courage and love as one, the force in the locked room, ..which makes cowardice a deadly sin. And Lupin has admitted to being a coward. Hmmm. Hermione's desperate to take SPEW further. If someone were sympathetic about that, offered her help, might she not tell them more than she should? She talks about Harry all the time anyway. Pippin who now has a bad feeling about all those letters Hermione's been writing to Viktor And who apologizes for not being able to cite the interview about the duel. Grrr, I know I read it somewhere. From pjcousins at btinternet.com Sat Feb 28 22:35:38 2004 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:35:38 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91781 My Post #91753 Friday 27 February 2004 as is usual for me, may not have been as clear as intended, but a very important point is :- Who witnessed Lord Voldemort being vaporised ? Someone had to see this for LV's downfall to be a news item. The ruin of the Potter house and Harry's rescue is secondary, although very important. As Kneasy has proposed that Sirius is guilty, I wonder if Trelawney's Second Prophecy refers to Sirius rather than Peter Pettigrew. "His servant has been chained these twelve years".This line could apply more to Sirius than rat Wormtail. Sirius could indeed return to LV, and quickly with Buckbeak as transport. Peter could join them later as is revealed in GoF. They could all, Sirius, Pettigrew, and LV return on Buckbeak for the start of GoF. I am rereading PoA at the moment so most of the above is from memory. Fudge is Evil, he had Crouch Junior 'Dementor Kissed' in GoF and intended same fate for Sirius in PoA, both without trial. Neither Crouch nor Sirius would then be a danger to Fudge. I repeat my main question for Godric's Hollow. How do they all (WW) know with such confidence that Voldemort is vaporised ? Answer: They have read about it in that morning's Daily Prophet. DE's would not have passed on the information. I don't think Dumbledore was present because I doubt he would want the news released so quickly. For the Daily Prophet to 'print' the story so quickly points to either Fudge or Rita Skeeter being present. Fudge has the most to gain and enjoys influence of the Prophet. If Skeeter had scooped the story surely she would be chief reporter when she appears in GoF, rather than "Attractive blonde Rita Skeeter, forty-three, ...". If Pettigrew and/or Sirius were the witness the news would not have become public so quickly. Kneasy also implicates Fudge in Sirius' 'escape' from Azkaban. DD is not the only one with a cunning plan. Phil From danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 28 22:40:21 2004 From: danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com (danielmorgan322) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:40:21 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91782 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" > wrote: > > Pippin writes: > > > "The consensus on the list was that priori incantatem will be > > referred to again, and it will be important for it to operate as > > originally described. And of course JKR said there was a huge > > clue on that page. It wasn't the James Lily swap. So what was it?" > > > > Sophierom: > > > > Being relatively new to this list, I've never heard this before. > Can > > you tell me where JKR talks about this "huge clue?" > > > > Ditto for me. This is the first time I've heard of that. > > > What I found interesting about the scene where Harry's wand forces > > priori incantatem on LV's wand is how all the > echoes/ghosts "hissed" > > at LV and how "livid with fear" LV was. (GOF Am. ed., paperback, > > 667) The only other times I remember LV's fear being discussed is > > whenever characters say that Dumbledore is the only one LV fears. I > > wonder if Dumbledore will purposely let himself be killed by LV so > > that in the final confrontation, when Harry and LV's wands meet > > again, Dumbledore can emerge as part of the priori incantatem. > > According to the prophecy, only Harry (if he is the "one") can > > vanquish LV. If Harry forces priori incantatem, then aren't the > > ghost-like figures part of his spell work? Whatever they do to LV > > would be part of Harry's destruction of him. > > > > > I wonder if LV's fear was from his returned victims prowling around > or from the Phoenix song - supposed to strike fear into those who are > not pure of heart. I just reread that page and the only things of > significance I see are that LV was fearful, Lily interacted with > Harry, or that they were able to give him time (not that I can catch > all hints from JKR - she's sneaky!). > > Kristen > P.S. I have found it interesting to go back and read old interviews > with JKR on the Quick Quotes site - part of the Floo Network. She > dropped a lot more hints before Harry became insanely popular. I think that maybe the clue was that Harry managed to push that bead of energy thing back towards LV. Wouldnt that mean Harry is more powerful. Also he was very emotional at this time, maybe that's got something to do with it? You all know what i'm getting at. Come to think of it When its one on one Harry has always beaten him, and I don't think its just luck, he manages to overcome through sheer force of will, burning Quirrel, stabbing the diary, the bead of light incident, and being able to throw of LV when he possessed him at the end of OOTP. Please tell me if you think i'm way off here Morgan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 28 22:41:34 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:41:34 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91783 > > My point was that he was in a flat panic, ready to do anything to > save Sirius and had been flapping hysterically about how to get to > London for the past couple of hours. What could be more obvious > than at least trying to step through the fire to the kitchen of > Grimmauld place. Even if he didn't bother to yell up the stairs > for Sirius when he got there, but rushed straight off to the tube > station, from his POV it would surely have seemed the fastest way > to get to the MoM ? > > Carolyn, still irritated. Do you think DD and possibly the other teachers might have stressed over & over to the students that one can't "floo" out of Hogwarts? Maybe it's like the people who splinch when apparating or something, and DD told horror stories about anyone who attempted to floo out? Even if Harry were desperate, he might remember that you can't do it [except perhaps out of DD's fireplace]. NO EVIDENCE, of course; just an idea. Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 29 01:36:44 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 01:36:44 -0000 Subject: Digest Number 4281 In-Reply-To: <20040226000639.32102.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91784 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney wrote: > Tyler answers: > > The thing is, if Kreacher's memory was totally removed > and he couldn't remember any of Black's relatives then > he wouldn't be able to find them on his own. And the > odds that he would come across them by accident are > pretty slim. Of course, if they didn't want to take > any risk at all, after modifying his memory why not > employ him at Hogwarts? None of the DE's would find > him there. Its also doubtful that Draco has ever been > in the kitchens and even if he does go down there for a > midnight snake on occasion, he wouldn't recognize the > elf. He's never met him (as far as we know). > Yikes! Would *you* want Kreacher working in the Hogwarts kitchen? *I* wouldn't! He's such an unpleasant little bugger--who could get along with him? And I wouldn't trust him w/ my food preparation either! Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 29 01:59:29 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 01:59:29 -0000 Subject: Mirror [was: Re: Why not floo instead of thestral to London?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91785 Carol wrote: > I don't think it's a plot hole. I think it's a deliberate literary > device that JKR is quite fond of, situational irony... > This situation [Harry's not remembering the mirror] is much more > complex because it involves the irony of fate (tragic irony) as >well. > I thought it was a very moving moment and underlined the whole > idea of how our choices, and our mistakes, have unintended and > unanticipated consequences. *If only* he'd at least opened the > mirror and known it was there. *If only* he'd used it to talk to > Sirius instead of talking to the treacherous Kreacher. But with > the mirror as well as the journey to the MoM, he did the wrong > thing for the right reason and suffered the consequences of human > error. > > None of that makes further use of the mirror impossible. Maybe it > will reappear in other books, but since we've seen that it can't > be used to communicate with a dead man, I don't think it will. > Susan now: I most certainly understand your explanation here, but I *hope* you're wrong about its being UNlikely that JKR will bring the mirror back into play. If she doesn't bring it back in some way which will prove **useful** to Harry/The Cause--if it was there merely to provide an example of situational/tragic irony and as emphasis for the consequences of human choice/error--then it seems INCREDIBLY cruel on JKR's part! Isn't it enough that Sirius died? that Harry's actions contributed to that death? Isn't that enough to bear? Why exacerbate that cruel fact of life by introducing the damn mirror which might have made a difference...UNLESS it's got some positive role to play in the future? THAT is my hope. Otherwise, I think I'll be slightly peeved at JKR for going "overboard" on the cruel irony! Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 29 02:16:48 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 02:16:48 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91786 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > I believe that JKR might be fudging just a bit in order to get us > to believe our eyes rather than our hearts. This theme > of "faith in the face of hopelessness" is something I think will > become very important in future books. > > The books seem to point to one thing, and the interviews seem to > point us in another direction. Just looking at the books, the > signs seem to be all there for Sirius' return. Looking at the > interviews, he is truly dead. > I don't know, Entropy. That seems an awfully strong statement, to say that "just looking at the books, the signs seem to be all there for Sirius' return." I think it might be more fair to say there are SOME signs which COULD be interpreted as pointing to Sirius' return. There are also several signs that Sirius IS really & truly gone. If you DON'T buy into the Evil!Lupin thing, then Lupin may well know what the veil is/does and may know for a fact that Sirius is dead. DD says he's dead. Nick, who expected Harry to come asking, has to sadly tell him Sirius *won't* be coming back. JKR may toy with us in interviews some, but I think she simply tends to *avoid answering* or teases when she doesn't want to give things away or wants to keep us guessing. I don't think she's been shown so far to have said one thing in an interview and then had the books show she had outright "lied" to us, has she? Things for which she's had to say, "Gotcha!! I was only joking!" If there are, I'd love to hear about them. I may eat my words in the end, but I do NOT believe JKR would use the firm, final words she used in [more than one] interview about Sirius' death if she were going to bring him back later. No, I think she'd have shied around the issue or used more nebulous words. Siriusly Snapey Susan From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 04:16:13 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 04:16:13 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > 2. Somebody informs the interested parties, which probably means DD and > the Order, but let's not forget that the rest of the WW heard almost as quickly. > Who? Who was there and got the word out? Annemehr: I don't know how the WW at large found out, but since OoP I wonder if DD hadn't had one of those "reliable methods of communicating" with the Potters, or some sort of trouble detector. In a world with sneakoscopes and foe glasses, and magic two-way mirrors, I would think he would have. I wonder if DD's watch with the twelve hands told him that Lily and James were dead and Harry was alive. I wonder if he could have had a hand for Voldemort, too. Kneasy: > 3. So far as we know, Hagrid (sent by DD?) is first on the scene. > Why Hagrid? Wouldn't an Auror be more logical given that the Potters were a > known target of Voldy and his DEs? Annemehr: Dumbledore wouldn't send anyone from the Ministry. Hagrid is someone DD would trust with his life, and handily enough, stunners (and who knows what else) bounce right off him. He might have sent *only* Hagrid because of the trust factor, too. Kneasy: > 4. Sirius arrives. He later states that he went to check up on Peter and found > him gone, so he then went to the Potter house, saw the wreckage and their > bodies. > > 5. He immediately suspects Peter - *but tells no-one!* > Come on! Pull the other one, it's got bells on. Annemehr: I think it's because he saw no point to it. I think the only people left alive who knew there *was* a secret-keeper were DD, Sirius and Peter, and Sirius never saw DD before he was thrown into Azkaban. Perhaps the silly man expected to have a trial and a chance to convince DD. Sirius didn't say anything to Hagrid, because Hagrid didn't know about any Fidelius Charm IMO, Hagrid only knew the Potters had gone into hiding. In the Three Broomsticks in PoA, Hagrid said, "Never occurred ter me what he was doin' there. I didn' know he'd bin Lily an' James's Secret-Keeper." I can see Sirius not stopping to tell the whole story just then; he'd probably figure he'd sort it out with DD later, if he thought of anything at all beyond finding Pettigrew. Kneasy: > 6. At the Shrieking Shack Sirius tells us that the DEs in Azkaban accept > that Peter betrayed the Potters. The DEs also assumed that Peter betrayed > Voldy, but was now presumed to be dead. > So how come it was a secret to the rest of the WW? Why would the DEs hide > his role in the affair? Annemehr: They had nothing to gain by ratting out a dead man. As for the rest of your questions, I think there is quite a lot about this that JKR knows but hasn't written -- stuff she's saving for book 7 probably. I don't see any flat-out inconsistencies so much as gaping holes. :P Kneasy: > > But things didn't work out quite the way he intended. Tee hee! Annemehr: I'm not doing ESE!Sirius or ESE!Lupin for that matter, but that last statement of yours I can apply to practically everyone in the series (with just a bit of gender modification as needed)! Annemehr From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 29 04:19:15 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 04:19:15 -0000 Subject: Where is Pettigrew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmjklj" wrote: > I've been following the Lupin conspiracy thread put forth by Pippin, > and I'm afraid to ask a silly question. > > *Where* is Pettigrew? > > Is the last time we see him in the graveyard? What if he was killed > then, and that's why I can't recall him in OOP. > > Sorry if I missed something obvious here. > > -KTG From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 29 04:23:52 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 04:23:52 -0000 Subject: Where is Pettigrew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmjklj" wrote: > I've been following the Lupin conspiracy thread put forth by Pippin, > and I'm afraid to ask a silly question. > > *Where* is Pettigrew? > > Is the last time we see him in the graveyard? What if he was killed > then, and that's why I can't recall him in OOP. > > Sorry if I missed something obvious here. > > -KTG Wormtail strikes me as being good for sneaky, underhanded work, but he isn't brave enough to take on the Order members directly. Besides, he is supposed to be dead, so being spotted in the Ministry would be a 'dead' giveaway ;-) I just figured he's somewhere in the background scurrying around like a servant. At least he doesn't have to milk Nagini anymmore. Ravenclaw Bookworm From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 29 05:14:56 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 05:14:56 -0000 Subject: What about next year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91790 Sue wrote: With all of this talk about prefects, I began to wonder about Next years new prefects. SNIP< What about Ginny? SNIP> Any takers? Potioncat wrote: Ginny will make it. Ron will be in a mix then! That will mean everyone in the Weasley family made prefects. Uh, what about the twins??? Antoshachekhonte wrote: > I don't know if I could stand Colin being made prefect. He's so... ANNOYING. But I agree > about Ginny... No disagreement with Colin being annoying now, (As Roger Rabit's wife said "I'm not really bad, I'm just drawn to look that way.") maybe he will be less annoying as he gets older. He is, however, in the DA, a 4th year and we already know him. IIRC, he is the *only* 4th year boy we know. Of course, we may never know who the new prefects for next year are, unless Ginny is one. We only are introduced to the prefects we "need to know". Sue From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 29 05:57:40 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 05:57:40 -0000 Subject: Where is Pettigrew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91791 KTG asked: > > *Where* is Pettigrew? > > > > Wormtail strikes me as being good for sneaky, underhanded work, but > he isn't brave enough to take on the Order members directly. > Besides, he is supposed to be dead, so being spotted in the Ministry > would be a 'dead' giveaway ;-) > > I just figured he's somewhere in the background scurrying around > like a servant. At least he doesn't have to milk Nagini anymmore. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm Why the old Black mansion is a lovely place to hide and wait! Who would know better how to find his best friend's house and even sneak in. After all, there was no need for a secret keeper until the Order moved in. "...Kreacher had made himself something that looked like a nest. A jumble of assorted rags and smelly old blankets were piled on the floor and the small dent in the middle of it showed where Kreacher curled up to sleep every night. Here and there among the material were stale bread crusts and moldy old bits of cheese." (US ed. 504) Sounds like the perfect place for 2 rats to share. BTW, I realize Sirius would recognize Peter IF he saw him and that a rat with a silver hand would stand out a bit. We do not yet know the properties of that hand. "Harry heard something scuttling behind the baseboards" (US ed 61) Just thinking aloud... Sue From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 07:02:05 2004 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:02:05 -0000 Subject: Digest Number 4281 - Bye Bye Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91792 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney > wrote: > > Tyler answers: > > > > The thing is, if Kreacher's memory was totally removed > > ... after modifying his memory why not employ him at Hogwarts? > > elf. He's never met him (as far as we know). > > > > Yikes! Would *you* want Kreacher working in the Hogwarts kitchen? > *I* wouldn't! He's such an unpleasant little bugger--who could get > along with him? And I wouldn't trust him w/ my food preparation > either! > > Siriusly Snapey Susan bboy_mn: I agree with Susan. As much as I have sympathy for Kreacher, I wouldn't want the little lecher touching my food. That said, I will say, admittedly without proof, that I think Kreacher is no longer a problem for sadly his head has joined his ancestors on the wall. Proof? No, just a hunch. bboy_mn From idcre at imap2.asu.edu Sun Feb 29 07:33:06 2004 From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:33:06 -0000 Subject: What question would you ask JK Rowling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote: >> I see on the Leaky Cauldron more info on the web chat with JKR on March 4. This is our first real opportunity to get information from her since the launch of OOP. If you could only ask one question, what would it be?<< Hmm. Trying to ask a question of JKR that is significant enough to be worthwhile, but not so much so that she'll refuse to answer is tough. I'd try this: Is, or was, Snape's name, or his family's name, on the Black family tree tapestry (is it now a charred blotch?)? BM From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Feb 29 07:51:57 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:51:57 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > > > My point was that he was in a flat panic, ready to do anything to > > save Sirius and had been flapping hysterically about how to get to > > London for the past couple of hours. What could be more obvious > > than at least trying to step through the fire to the kitchen of > > Grimmauld place. Geoff: But that doesn't occur to anyone at that point. I've just re-read the relevant bit and who is it who keeps a cool head and comes up with an answer at this point? Luna. "'Yes,' said Harry.... 'and I'm sure Sirius is still alive but I can't see how we're going to get there to help him'...... ....'Well, we'll have to fly, won't we?,' said Luna in the closest thing to a matter-of-fact voice Harry had ever heard her use. 'OK', said Harry irritably........'..Ron's the only one with a broomstick that isn't being guarded by a security troll, so -'...... .....'There are other ways of flying than with broomsticks,' said Luna serenely. 'I s'pose we're going to ride on the back of the Kacky Snorgle or whatever it is?' Ron demanded. 'The Crumple-Horned Snorkack can't fly' said Luna in a dignified voice, 'but they can and Hagrid says they're very good for finding places their riders are looking for.' Harry whirled round. Standing between two trees, their white eyes gleaming eerily were two Thestrals....' (OOTP "Fight and flight" from pp.670-672 UK edition) /No one/ thought of Floo powder. The only options which crossed most people's minds were broomsticks, so it's not just Harry who isn't thinking about all the options, bearing also in mind that they probalby wouldn't count Flooing in as the school would be too dnagerous to return to..... From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Feb 29 09:47:39 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:47:39 -0000 Subject: Why didn't DD visit Sirius in Azkaban ? (was Cedric and Pettigrew ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91795 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote (in reply to a question from Kneasy): > > 5. He immediately suspects Peter - *but tells no-one!* > > Come on! Pull the other one, it's got bells on. > > Annemehr: > I think it's because he saw no point to it. I think the only people > left alive who knew there *was* a secret-keeper were DD, Sirius and > Peter, and Sirius never saw DD before he was thrown into Azkaban. > Perhaps the silly man expected to have a trial and a chance to > convince DD. > Carolyn (following this renewed re-hash with great interest!): That's another curious point. Sirius had been banged up in Azkaban for 12 years. Why has DD NOT gone to visit him, at least to get Sirius's version of events, even if he can't get him out ? I can't believe DD wasn't able to get permission to do this if he wanted to, as head of Wizengamot, Chief Mugwump etc etc. I find myself torn between two possible explanations: (a) Dumbledore as bumbling old twit, who doesn't have much of a grip on what's really going on, and thought Sirius really had betrayed the Potters, despite knowing how close James and Sirius had been all their lives. (After all, this is the supposedly amazingly all- powerful wizard who didn't manage to spot Voldy tied up in a turban on Quirrells head, despite the funny smell and Snape's suspicion). (b) Dumbledore the puppet master, who finds it convenient to have Sirius locked up, as he knew Sirius would recognise Scabbers as soon as he saw him in Ron's pocket, and for reasons we don't know, Dumbledore did not want that to happen - perhaps because he thought it might precipitate Voldy's return before Harry was ready for him. There is a remark DD made somewhere which I can't quite find at the moment, which intimates that he did know MWPP were animagi all along. I don't know when he might have spotted Scabbers for what he was - perhaps when he was Percy's pet, but as soon as he did, he planned accordingly. Pip (or Pippen ?)'s recent point that rats were not on the approved list of pets for Hogwarts is supporting evidence here - why was Scabbers allowed in the school? (Although remember the spider thing that Lee Jordan brought one year ? Not a rule enforced very strictly perhaps). Its all very rough on Sirius either way, assuming he really wasn't on Voldy's side. From JFInnegan1 at aol.com Sat Feb 28 12:57:19 2004 From: JFInnegan1 at aol.com (JFInnegan1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 07:57:19 EST Subject: Some thoughts (Dark Mark, Percy's Letter, Grizelda Marchbanks) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91796 These may have been covered before but I picked up on a few clues, I drive about 3 hours each day and its easy to toss in a Book on tape frequently ... having listened and read most of the books about 20 times I picked up a few things recently ... *************************************** The Dark Mark and the Chamber of Secrets: *************************************** The Dark Mark is described as a skull with a snake coming out of its mouth. Looking at the movie depiction of the Chamber of secrets ... we see the basilisk leaving the mouth of a depiction of Salazar Slythein's face. Could be the basis for the image of Voldemorts dark order. I think this is a hint to remind us that we haven't seen the last of the Chamber of Secrets. *************************************** Percy's Letter: Dumbledore's Favorite Boy *************************************** This is being covered heavily in a few different locations, (Galadriel Waters question and answer forum on mugglenet.com for example) I haven't posted this theory there but something occurred to me. When Harry comes out of the Trial in Book 5 Lucius Malfoy refers to Harry as "Dumbledore's Favorite Boy". Percy utilizes the same exact description to Ron in the letter Percy sends him in Book 5. Very coincidental, and we COULD assume that Percy simply sees and hears Malfoy in Fudge's office - but it seems very cooincidental. It's almost as if Percy was impelled to use this wording in his letter. Percy was not with Malfoy and Fudge after the Trial, having moved quickly away from his father. I believe I have also heard Draco say the "Dumbledore's favorite boy" line again but I haven't found the line yet. Could this be a link perhaps to Percy being under the Imperius curse? ******************************************** Grizelda Marchbanks ******************************************** Grizelda Marchbanks is a death eater in disguise during the OWL testing. Suppositions: Harry viewed in her tea leaves that she died 2 days prior to her arriving for OWL testing. She disappeared during the Astronomy OWL exam. ( I suspect she was setting something up for book 6 - Where I believe Voldemort is going to attack Hogwarts) The Prophet reported her as being tied to "Subversive Goblin Groups" - if she is linked to Goblins it reiterates the Quibbler story "Fudge wants Gringotts". Voldemort killed goblins during his last reign of terror outside of Nottingham. Why did he kill or torture Goblins? It seems that Voldemort might want to extend his influence to Gringotts, control the money and you control power. Dumbledore wasn't supposedly in the castle when she appearred, the DE's know that Dumbledore was removed as Head Master ... allowing them a chance to scout around inside Hogwarts and possible set up something up for a later strike against. Marchbanks sounds alot like the word Montebank. Defintion from Webster.com is: "a boastful unscrupulous pretender " When she is talking to Umbridge, she asks alot of questions about Dumbledore, where he is ... I think the only question she wanted answered was "He's not here right?" One of the things said several times in the books: (Roughly worded) Lord Voldemort never attacked Hogwarts during his last reign of terror. (Hermione) As long as Dumbledore is there, Hogwarts is safe. (Hermione) (Whenever he is not there we should assume its unsafe imho) As long as we have Dumbledore we shouldn't be worried. (Hagrid) Theory: Grizelda Marchbanks is a perfect target for death eaters. She has links to Hogwarts as a member of OWL testing. She may have links to Goblins, which I strongly believe Lord Voldemort intends to lean on or subvert heavily in the future. If she is a Death Eater in disguise it also reminds me of the old man at Saint Mungo's with the Horn Trumpet wanting to visit Broderick Bode. I strongly believe that Lord Voldemort's agents are using Polyjuice, or have a Metamorph Magi working in an out of Hogwarts. Just some thoughts, feel free ripping them apart. :P First post, be gentle. John Finnegan aka Olivander [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From littlefishy518 at att.net Sat Feb 28 12:45:33 2004 From: littlefishy518 at att.net (Anna Krist) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 07:45:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flitwick or Snape as DADA? References: Message-ID: <000201c3fdfa$d48911f0$43774d0c@yourm5d4u9r2uv> No: HPFGUIDX 91797 Julie said: I wonder with the prejudice against Slytherin as the house from which all dark wizards/Voldemort supporters spring, if its Snape's position as head of Slytherin that is another drawback to his holding the DADA job. While the old saying is that "it takes one to know one" I wonder if there would a feeling of suspicion among parents and the Board of Governors that a Slytherin might not really teach a non- slytherin to 'defend' adequately. Me (Plush): I just want to make a note of what Julie said about parents and the board of Governers being prujudice against Snape. I agree with most of this, but I had to point out that Hagrid tells the trio that the Board is in "Lucius Malfoy's pocket" in the third book. As Lucius was a Slytherin and seems to have a connection with Snape, the nature of which is mostly yet to be discovered. Other than that, though, I agree with her on everything. Plush From the_chef1965 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 28 17:25:53 2004 From: the_chef1965 at yahoo.com (Elliott Sinclair) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:25:53 -0000 Subject: Draco as prefect (Was: Ron as prefect... and then some) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91798 Geoff: > Yes, but bear in mind that when Dumbledore returned to the school at > the end of COS he warned Lucius about his activities (in fact, did LM > lose his governorship?). > > I do not think he was in any position to dictate to Dumbledore about > Draco as a prefect or not. Didn't Draco say something about his father getting the boot from the Board of Governors? "Elliott Sinclair" From HMaffioli at cox.net Sun Feb 29 03:51:46 2004 From: HMaffioli at cox.net (Heather Maffioli) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 19:51:46 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Pettigrew? References: Message-ID: <00c001c3fe77$5a7842a0$6401a8c0@sd.cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 91799 KTG wrote: > I've been following the Lupin conspiracy thread put forth by Pippin, > and I'm afraid to ask a silly question. > > *Where* is Pettigrew? > > Is the last time we see him in the graveyard? What if he was killed > then, and that's why I can't recall him in OOP. Heather: I think that there is a huge clue on the bonus jacket art for the special boxed American edition. There is clearly a rat hiding in the grass out side GP. Many have suspected that animal are able to perceive magically hidden places and people. Is it possible that PP is in fact spying on the Order through out the book? From elihufalk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 10:03:33 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (elihufalk) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:03:33 -0000 Subject: Where is Wormtail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91800 KTG wrote: > I've been following the Lupin conspiracy thread put forth by >Pippin, and I'm afraid to ask a silly question. > > *Where* is Wormtail? > > Is the last time we see him in the graveyard? What if he was >killed then, and that's why I can't recall him in OOP. > > Sorry if I missed something obvious here. I think simply that Wormtail is in hiding somewhere, possibly spying on someone (Fudge?) in the form of a rat. Don't forget that Wormtail hid at the Weasley's house successfully for a while. Elihu From elihufalk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 10:23:43 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 02:23:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rats at Hogwarts (was Cedric and Pettigrew) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040229102343.31670.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91801 Pip!Squeak wrote: Oh, and rats aren't on the approved pets list. How *did* Percy get permission to bring a rat to school? That one, particular rat. Elihu's answer: Maybe because the Weasleys were on close terms with Dumbledore, they got special permission to allow their son to bring a rat of theirs to school. Dumbledore didn't know that this rat is a problem until shortly before Percy graduated. Elihu From elihufalk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 10:41:22 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (elihufalk) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:41:22 -0000 Subject: Slytherins/DE and Girls Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91802 I get the idea, from the series, that Slytherin and the Death Eaters don't realy like girls: 1) Lucius Malfoy mentions that "a girl of no wizard family" beast Draco's grades[CS]. Is the word girl important in that sentence, or is it just because Lucius doesn't want to mention the name of that "mudblood"? I think the first. 2) There are no girls on the Slytherin Quiddich team [PA] 3) I've counted over 20 male DEs, and only 1 female: 9 male in Azkaban 2 male DE's mentioned by Karkaroff who weren't in Azkaban (Snape is one of those) 7 DE's who are present at Voldemort's first speech (including Wormtail) Karkaroff Barty Crouch Jr. Regulus Black The only female DE mentioned in the series, so far, is Belatrix Lestrange. Does this represent that Slytherin/DE profile considers women to be less then men? Elihu From elihufalk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 09:48:24 2004 From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 01:48:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What about next year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040229094824.71251.qmail@web21406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91803 potioncat wrote: Ginny will make it [to be a prefect]. Ron will be in a mix then! That will mean everyone in the Weasley family made prefects. Elihu's answer: What about Fred and George Weasley? They weren't. Elihu From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Feb 29 12:20:00 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:20:00 -0000 Subject: What about next year? In-Reply-To: <20040229094824.71251.qmail@web21406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91804 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk wrote: > potioncat wrote: > Ginny will make it [to be a prefect]. Ron will be in a mix then! That will mean everyone in the Weasley family made prefects. > > > Elihu's answer: > > What about Fred and George Weasley? They weren't. Potioncat replies: Well, I was warned that humor doesn't play well in e-mails! I was doing a Molly Weasley in that post and I added to my signature this line: (and you call yourself our mother!) BTW, the Mix I was referring to was that Ron will have Hermione and Ginny as fellow prefects. I think that will add some interesting situations. Potioncat From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 29 12:36:04 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:36:04 -0000 Subject: Bye bye Kreacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91805 Steve's theory that Kreacher's head is now adorning the wall at the Black house made me wonder who actually does the chopping and mounting. Is the worn-out elf actually decapitated and stuck up like a hunting trophy? If so, who is swinging the axe? Or is it all done by magic? Also, is this practice of mounting elf-heads peculiar to the Blacks or is it widespread among the nastier kind of pureblood? Sylvia (so many things to ponder!) From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Sun Feb 29 12:43:31 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:43:31 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem - LV's fear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91806 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "danielmorgan322" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" > > wrote: > > > Pippin writes: > > > > > "The consensus on the list was that priori incantatem will be > > > referred to again, and it will be important for it to operate as > > > originally described. And of course JKR said there was a huge > > > clue on that page. It wasn't the James Lily swap. So what was > it?" > > > > > > Sophierom: > > > > > > Being relatively new to this list, I've never heard this before. > > Can > > > you tell me where JKR talks about this "huge clue?" > > > > > > > Ditto for me. This is the first time I've heard of that. > I think that maybe the clue was that Harry managed to push that bead > of energy thing back towards LV. Wouldnt that mean Harry is more > powerful. Also he was very emotional at this time, maybe that's got > something to do with it? You all know what i'm getting at. Come to > think of it When its one on one Harry has always beaten him, and I > don't think its just luck, he manages to overcome through sheer > force of will, burning Quirrel, stabbing the diary, the bead of > light incident, and being able to throw of LV when he possessed him > at the end of OOTP. Please tell me if you think i'm way off here > Morgan I'm not doubting that Harry pushing the beads back to LV's want tip was huge, but it didn't happen on that page (2 before). Personally, I'm not sure where the thing about "the clue" comes from, so I cannot guess at this point. That does bring a new possibility to mind though. The question is, why is LV fearful? I see 3 possibilities: 1. his previous victims are circling him (direct implication of text) 2. the Phoenix song going through the web (Kristen's previous post) 3. Through the connection, LV is being bombarded with Harry's emotions (Morgan's post) Harry has a pretty big connection to the phoenix - not sure if it's general or Fawkes in particular. Maybe I've been watching too much Power Rangers Dino Thunder with my kids :), but perhaps Harry has a touch of Phoenix powers. That could also be what they are studying in that room at the minitry of magic. Kristen From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Feb 29 12:59:18 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:59:18 -0000 Subject: Why didn't DD visit Sirius in Azkaban ? (was Cedric and Pettigrew ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: That's another curious point. Sirius had been banged up in Azkaban > for 12 years. Why has DD NOT gone to visit him, at least to get > Sirius's version of events, even if he can't get him out ? I can't > believe DD wasn't able to get permission to do this if he wanted to, > as head of Wizengamot, Chief Mugwump etc etc. I find myself torn > between two possible explanations: > > (a) Dumbledore as bumbling old twit, who doesn't have much of a grip > on what's really going on, and thought Sirius really had betrayed the > Potters, despite knowing how close James and Sirius had been all > their lives. (After all, this is the supposedly amazingly all- > powerful wizard who didn't manage to spot Voldy tied up in a turban > on Quirrells head, despite the funny smell and Snape's suspicion). > > (b) Dumbledore the puppet master, who finds it convenient to have > Sirius locked up, as he knew Sirius would recognise Scabbers as soon > as he saw him in Ron's pocket, and for reasons we don't know, > Dumbledore did not want that to happen - perhaps because he thought > it might precipitate Voldy's return before Harry was ready for him. Marianne replies: Both scenarios have been kicked about a bit, so I guess it all depends on what one's lasting impression of Dumbledore is. For all we know DD might have gone to Azkaban and happened to arrive on a day when Sirius was in the depths of Dementor torture and simply couldn't offer DD any explanation. Thus, DD leaves, thinking Sirius has gone mad. Absolutely no canon support, but we'll have to wait for further clues from Herself in the next 2 books. a_reader: > There is a remark DD made somewhere which I can't quite find at the > moment, which intimates that he did know MWPP were animagi all along. Marianne: Ummm, I'm not sure about that. In Chap 22 of PoA, DD says to Harry " Last night Sirius told me all about how they became Animagi...An extraordinary achievement - not least, keeping it quiet from me." I interpret DD here saying he didn't know what MWPP were up to. ALthough, as DD often shades his meaning, this isn't a flat-out statement that he didn't suspect at the time that they were up to something. Maybe he did suspect, for some reason, that they were attempting to become Animagi. But, when they then didn't flaunt that ability openly, nor end up in the Hospital wing caught in some sort of transformation-gone-wrong, he may have thought that his original suspicions were groundless or that they gave up the attempt. On the other hand, why wouldn't MWPP have told DD about their Animagus status once they were in the original Order? Couldn't the ability of people to turn into a dog or a rat come in handy at times? (A stag is more problematic as that disguise would be no disguise at all waltzing through London.) So, what's up with that? Marianne, with more questions From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 13:40:00 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:40:00 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > wrote: > > > > > > My point was that he was in a flat panic, ready to do anything to > > > save Sirius and had been flapping hysterically about how to get > to > > > London for the past couple of hours. snip > Geoff: > But that doesn't occur to anyone at that point. I've just re-read the > relevant bit and who is it who keeps a cool head and comes up with an > answer at this point? > > Luna. > > "'Yes,' said Harry.... 'and I'm sure Sirius is still alive but I > can't see how we're going to get there to help him'...... > > ....'Well, we'll have to fly, won't we?,' said Luna in the closest > thing to a matter-of-fact voice Harry had ever heard her use. > 'OK', said Harry irritably........'..Ron's the only one with a > broomstick that isn't being guarded by a security troll, so -'...... > > .....'There are other ways of flying than with broomsticks,' said > Luna serenely. > 'I s'pose we're going to ride on the back of the Kacky Snorgle or > whatever it is?' Ron demanded. > 'The Crumple-Horned Snorkack can't fly' said Luna in a dignified > voice, 'but they can and Hagrid says they're very good for finding > places their riders are looking for.' > Harry whirled round. Standing between two trees, their white eyes > gleaming eerily were two Thestrals....' > > (OOTP "Fight and flight" from pp.670-672 UK edition) > > /No one/ thought of Floo powder. The only options which crossed most > people's minds were broomsticks snip Isn't the floo network being monitored? I am pretty sure it says something to that effect in the book, and not just at Hogwarts. Sorry I cannnot grab my book as I am on crutches. If Harry and Mr Weasley could not use the floo network to go to the MOM and since Sirius almost got caught talking to Harry, I dont think the gang would even think of using it. Plus, they did not know what was going on at the castle...if they went back would they have been free to use the floo or even go to McGonagal? I dont think going back to the castle was an option, and here they had a means which would deliver them to their destination. I wonder if when one rides a threstral, does the rider become invisible, or would you see a person flying thru the air clutching something invisible? If not, surely someone must have seen a group of kids flying thru the air..... Fran From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Feb 29 14:00:30 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:00:30 +0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91809 Interesting selection of responses on this thread. Everybody has thoughts on Sirius and Godrics Hollow (naturally), but most are not so sure that Sirius' actions are not those of an innocent man. We'll see. Because there was such a spread of responses, I've tried to fit all the bits that caught my eye into one post in the same order as the numbered points I raised in post 91746, so apologies if it seems a touch messy. Lots of snipping here, but still long. >> 1. House at Godrics Hollow wrecked in an explosion. >> Explosion? From an AK? How did this happen? >Pippin: That's explained in OOP, where Voldemort fires a bunch of AK's at Harry and Dumbledore. The first one bounces off a golden statue, the second one sets a desk on fire, the third blasts a statue into a hundred pieces. We can surmise that if AK hits something that can't be killed the results are often violent. The AK that was aimed at Harry bounced off, leaving a wound and a psychic connection, hit Voldemort, who also couldn't be killed, vaporized his body and destroyed the house. > Kneasy: If AKs were that destructive, I doubt that there would be any bodies lying about after a DE raid. An AK from Voldy missed Harry in the graveyard - it cracked a headstone, but it didn't vaporise the whole damn plot. No, an AK just isn't that powerful and if just one scars Harry rebounds and destroys Voldy, how much power would it have left? It's possible, I suppose, that the power released by Voldy's dissolution may have had something to do with it, but as all too often there's no evidence. (BTW, fair warning - I'm not too happy with some aspects of the accepted interpretation of the Lily-Voldy encounter. Watch this space.) >>Who? Who was there and got the word out? >confusinglyso (91794) I repeat my main question for Godric's Hollow. How do they all (WW) know with such confidence that Voldemort is vaporised ? Answer: They have read about it in that morning's Daily Prophet. DE's would not have passed on the information. I don't think Dumbledore was present because I doubt he would want the news released so quickly. For the Daily Prophet to 'print' the story so quickly points to either Fudge or Rita Skeeter being present. > Kneasy: But for that news to be in the Prophet, there must be an eye-witness who actually *saw* Voldy vaporise. Just because the Potters were dead and their house a pile of rubble it is not a natural assumption that Voldy was destroyed. On the contrary, one would assume that he had achieved his aim in getting rid of a few more irritants, *unless* someone saw the whole thing and reported it. And he may be keen on impressing the WW with his powers, but I doubt he'd invite Rita along as his Press Agent. Fudge is a different matter. At the time he was not Minister of Magic. Was he a DE in the raiding party? If he was, would he advertise the fact by recounting the tale? >Ffred: (91776) I've thought this over many times, but the only conclusion I can come up with is that DD had advance knowledge that the attack was coming. It would be easy to conclude from what Hagrid says in PS/SS and POA that DD sent him _after_ the event to get Harry out. But who could have told DD? The Potters? James tries to hold Voldemort off, Lily runs upstairs, scribbles a quick note, ties it to an owl, and chucks it out of the window. I would reject that one because of DD's response. The normal DE mode of operation is that Voldemort arrives with a clutch of his lieutenants and acolytes when they decide to commit an atrocity. When the Order arrive in OoP to escort Harry from Privet Drive, they come mob-handed. But DD sends (I would argue) a maximum of 3 people to confront Voldemort himself? Can't believe that he would waste his resources that way. So the only conclusion is that DD knew in advance. > Kneasy: Ffred, you're getting as bad as me. One interpretation of the Prophesy (among many) intimates that James and Lily *had* to die to turn Harry into Voldy's!Bane. (They are the "...neither can live.." bit). If, and I admit that it's a bloody massive 'if', DD has interpreted it the same way, then yes, he would have fore-knowledge and no, he wouldn't try to stop it. To do so might prevent the emergence of the main weapon against Voldy. If that interpretation is correct it's also possible that the damn Prophesy has already been fulfilled. It all depends on how you understand the meaning of 'vanquish'. In my dictionary it's defined as "to overcome an enemy in battle or conflict" - isn't that what happened at Godrics Hollow? A conflict, Harry got marked, Voldy was overcome. Many have noted that the Prophesy does not say destroyed, just beaten. A beaten enemy can often fight again, one battle is not the entire war and everything since is Voldy looking for a re-match. Have we been wasting our time with Neville? >>Why Hagrid? Wouldn't an Auror be more logical given that the >>Potters were a known target of Voldy and his DEs? >Ffred: It's a very good question. Hagrid's a good guy in a fight but sending him single handed against Voldemort is sending him to certain death. I can't escape the conclusion that DD sends at least one other person. No canon support, but possibly the Longbottoms are there too - they have an involvement with the Prophecy, and it could also explain why the DEs went for them later. But it's still far too few for a potential major fight. Why isn't DD there himself (as he was at the Ministry in OoP)? Even if (as I've argued elsewhere) he not only has foreknowledge of Voldemort's attack but also the fact that only Voldemort and Peter will be there, why not make a more serious attempt to save James and Lily's lives? > Kneasy: Exactly. Hagrid's a good bloke, but he can't rescue and fight at the same time. If he's solely on a rescue and recovery mission, it argues that DD already knows what has happened and that there is no further risk from DEs. Again, how does he know? I like the idea that the Longbottoms were there - it does explain why they were later tortured, but why no mention in despatches from the front-line? >Bluesqueak (91779) Two words: 'heavy' and 'lifting'. The house was destroyed; I reckon it fell down on top of Harry (the mysterious wizarding ability to survive normal accidents protecting him from falling masonry). Wizards can make fairly largish objects fly through the air, but magically lifting an entire blitzed out house might be too much for even someone as powerful as Dumbledore. > Kneasy: Tut, tut! Bluesqueak, you're thinking in Muggle terms! That's not like you! Wizards always, always, always, think of solutions to problems by magical means. The stadium for the QWC was constructed by thousands of wizards, nary a crane nor a JCB in sight. But suppose you are correct; it again means that DD knew *exactly* what the situation was. >annemehr: (91787) I don't know how the WW at large found out, but since OoP I wonder if DD hadn't had one of those "reliable methods of communicating" with the Potters, or some sort of trouble detector. In a world with sneakoscopes and foe glasses, and magic two-way mirrors, I would think he would have. I wonder if DD's watch with the twelve hands told him that Lily and James were dead and Harry was alive. I wonder if he could have had a hand for Voldemort, too. Dumbledore wouldn't send anyone from the Ministry. Hagrid is someone DD would trust with his life, and handily enough, stunners (and who knows what else) bounce right off him. He might have sent *only* Hagrid because of the trust factor, too. > Kneasy: Neat idea. I'd forgotten about that watch. Just the sort of sneaky thing JKR would do- give it a passing mention then expand on the idea in CoS when we weren't looking. But still, it wouldn't tell him about a building wrecked or if there were undesirables still in the vicinity. And he wouldn't 'officially' send anyone from the Ministry, no. But there are plenty of Aurors in the Order; isn't this just the sort of thing the order was founded for? DD knows too much and we don't know enough. >> Sirius arrives. He later states that he went to check up on >> Peter and found him gone, so he then went to the Potter >> house, saw the wreckage and their bodies. >> He immediately suspects Peter - *but tells no-one!* >> Come on! Pull the other one, it's got bells on. > Pippin: (91778) *Did* Hagrid meet Sirius at Godric's Hollow? Or was it a DE disguised by polyjuice or metamorphmagic? Sirius never says anything about meeting Hagrid, you'll note. IMO, the real Sirius arrived at Godric's Hollow after Harry and Hagrid were gone, saw James and Lily's bodies, then took off in pursuit of Peter. He wasn't thinking very clearly, and he didn't know yet that he'd supposedly declared himself Voldemort's second in command. Nobody did, or he'd have been apprehended on the spot. > Kneasy: This is novel. You're suggesting that a DE helps Hagrid to rescue Harry and to deliver him to DD. Why would he do that? It would also require the perpetrator to have bits of Sirius in store and to able to predict the need for the potion a month in advance, that being how long it takes to brew the Polyjuice Potion. And there's no evidence that Metamorphagi can copy an individual, just that they can change their appearance. > Annemehr: I think it's because he saw no point to it. I think the only people left alive who knew there *was* a secret-keeper were DD, Sirius and Peter, and Sirius never saw DD before he was thrown into Azkaban. Perhaps the silly man expected to have a trial and a chance to convince DD. Sirius didn't say anything to Hagrid, because Hagrid didn't know about any Fidelius Charm IMO, Hagrid only knew the Potters had gone into hiding. In the Three Broomsticks in PoA, Hagrid said, "Never occurred ter me what he was doin' there. I didn' know he'd bin Lily an' James's Secret-Keeper." I can see Sirius not stopping to tell the whole story just then; he'd probably figure he'd sort it out with DD later, if he thought of anything at all beyond finding Pettigrew. > Kneasy: A key question: when did James and Lily go into hiding? Was it a recent development, or did it happen soon after Harry's birth, nearly 15 months previously? How long determines how widespread the news was that they were in hiding and therefore were likely to have a Secret Keeper. If it were longer than say, a couple of weeks their friends (of whom they had many - Hagrid collected photos from them remember) would wonder where they were or why they couldn't contact them. But the crux of everything is why Sirius doesn't say anything. There were four in on the secret - James, Lily, Sirius, Peter. So far as anyone else would be aware, even after the event when guilt was being assigned, there were three. Only Peter can give confirmation to Sirius' story - yet he's the one Sirius sets off to kill. We all accept that Sirius is hot-headed, rash, intemperate. He also shoots his mouth off. It is not in character for him to say nothing, to point the finger at nobody. He'd be expected to rant and rave, scream "I'll get him for this!" and then seek revenge and retribution. A silent Sirius is a contradiction in terms. Unless he was afraid of something even more secret being revealed. >> At the Shrieking Shack Sirius tells us that the DEs in >> Azkaban accept that Peter betrayed the Potters. The DEs also >> assumed that Peter betrayed Voldy, but was now presumed to be >> dead. So how come it was a secret to the rest of the WW? Why >> would the DEs hide his role in the affair? >Ffred: I don't think that the DEs have any desire to pass on _any_ information about _anything_. After all, it's not going to get them out of Azkaban. Also, having accepted that Sirius was the traitor, why ask them. Kneasy: No one had to ask them; they were screaming it from their cells. It was not a secret - except to everyone else who happened to listen to Fudge or the Ministry. The Ministry was entirely too keen to hush up the whole affair. No one seems to have asked why or how the Godrics Hollow incident happened - which is ridiculous. No one performs a 'Prior Incantato' on either Sirius's or Peter's wands. Why not? Just what was the Ministry up to? OK; Crouch was a hanging judge and Fudge wanted a quiet life, but did nobody from the Order ask any questions? Sirius, Peter, James and Lily were all members, weren't they? Don't they look after their own? The only reason why they wouldn't ask questions is if DD told them not to. And that leads to very deep waters. It all comes back to a previous point - there was someone who passed out the news of what had happened; they told of Voldy's dissolution and probably fingered Sirius as the culprit who guided him there. Best bet is Peter. >>To stretch the envelope a bit, suppose what he has to hide is >> some sort of association with Voldy, just as Peter suggested >> in the Shrieking Shack. He'd really want to keep that quiet. >> Voldy was gone, James was dead, Lily was dead - now who else >> needs tidying up? Ah, yes! Peter. Grief-stricken friend hunts >> down filthy traitor and zaps him in the street. Unfortunate >> but understandable. Poor chap. Too upset to call the Aurors >> and get Pettigrew taken alive for questioning. >> Now no-one need ever know. >Ffred: Lends a new dimension to the conversation in the graveyard, doesn't it? Just as DD had more than one spy in the DEs, it's quite believable that Voldemort had more than one traitor in the Order... Kneasy: How interesting! Join the club, if you're not a member already. Now all we have to do is decide who. Pippin has plumped for Lupin and I go for Sirius. You pays your money and you takes your choice. Personally I think there are too many questions raised by Sirius. It's a bit like astronomy - the presence of an orbiting body is signaled by it's effect on others. So far we have no direct evidence; it's how others react that catches our notice. For example: >Bluesqueak (91779) Oh, and rats aren't on the approved pets list. How *did* Percy get permission to bring a rat to school? That one, particular rat. > Kneasy: How true. It's been mentioned before, mostly when questioning what Puppetmaster!DD is up to. He's generally been accepted as being on the good side (with notable dissenters), but it's entirely possible that he's playing a different game. Suppose he knew all about the Sirius/Peter swap - given his track record that's entirely reasonable. Why has he kept his mouth shut? If Malfoy can recognise Sirius as a dog, I'm certain that with his supposed omnipotence around Hogwarts, DD knew exactly who Scabbers was. Perhaps he put Peter up to the whole thing. >confusinglyso (91794) Fudge is Evil, he had Crouch Junior 'Dementor Kissed' in GoF and intended same fate for Sirius in PoA, both without trial. Neither Crouch nor Sirius would then be a danger to Fudge. Kneasy also implicates Fudge in Sirius' 'escape' from Azkaban. DD is not the only one with a cunning plan. > Kneasy: Damn right. I've posted before on Sirius' fortuitous escape from Azkaban (see thread Sirius Reservations-79808) and the purely coincidental visit of Fudge to Azkaban the night before he escapes. He must have been sprung; being a dog didn't protect him from the Dementors after the Shrieking Shack - he passed out when they attacked Harry, so how come he slides out of their home patch? No, no, no. It won't do. Anybody'd think I came up the Liffey on a lily. I'm not that daft. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 29 14:03:19 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:03:19 -0000 Subject: Why not floo instead of thestral to London? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91810 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > wrote: > > > > > > My point was that he was in a flat panic, ready to do anything to > > > save Sirius and had been flapping hysterically about how to get > to > > > London for the past couple of hours. What could be more obvious > > > than at least trying to step through the fire to the kitchen of > > > Grimmauld place. > > Geoff: > But that doesn't occur to anyone at that point. I've just re-read the > relevant bit and who is it who keeps a cool head and comes up with an > answer at this point? > > Luna. > JUST TO CLARIFY. The words at the start of this post are NOT my words. In fact, I wrote in to try to explain why Harry might NOT have tried to floo to 12 Grimmauld Place.... Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 29 14:13:13 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:13:13 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem - LV's fear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91811 Kristen wrote: > The question is, why is LV fearful? I see 3 possibilities: > 1. his previous victims are circling him (direct implication of text) > 2. the Phoenix song going through the web (Kristen's previous post) > 3. Through the connection, LV is being bombarded with Harry's > emotions (Morgan's post) > Might I add a possible #4? That Voldy is fearful because he does not EXPECT Harry to be able to duel with him? He has--at least outwardly--been belittling Harry and implying that he's a nothing. Then the duel begins, and Harry proves to be QUITE strong. Voldy has to be shocked both by the "reappearance" of his previous victims and by Harry's ability to hang in there in the battle. I would think that might strike true terror into him, esp. when he presumably thought he would be able to deal with Potter in quite short order. Siriusly Snapey Susan From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 14:49:24 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:49:24 -0000 Subject: Slytherins/DE and Girls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91812 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elihufalk" wrote: > I get the idea, from the series, that Slytherin and the Death Eaters > don't realy like girls: > > 1) Lucius Malfoy mentions that "a girl of no wizard family" beast > Draco's grades[CS]. Is the word girl important in that sentence, or > is it just because Lucius doesn't want to mention the name of > that "mudblood"? I think the first. > > 2) There are no girls on the Slytherin Quiddich team [PA] > > 3) I've counted over 20 male DEs, and only 1 female: > 9 male in Azkaban > 2 male DE's mentioned by Karkaroff who weren't in Azkaban (Snape > is one of those) > 7 DE's who are present at Voldemort's first speech (including > Wormtail) > Karkaroff > Barty Crouch Jr. > Regulus Black > > The only female DE mentioned in the series, so far, is Belatrix > Lestrange. Does this represent that Slytherin/DE profile considers > women to be less then men? > > Elihu Meri (poping up from lurkdom to quickly reply): I think that this suposed anti-female stance would fit in with the DE's (not nessecarily the Slytherins) reactionary worldviews. The DE's seem very interested, IMVHO, in returning the WW to its "glory days" of the Medieval times, where people of mixed blood were not included in their world, where the (somewhat) democratic MoM would be scrapped for a more authoritarian government, and where women would know their place: behind the cauldron mixing potions, not on broomsticks. I hesitate to catogorize the Slytherins this way for two reasons: 1. I am patiently waiting for JKR to introduce what has become known on the list as a "complex" Slytherin, and will reserve judgement on this house until the end of book seven, and 2. Just because there are no girls on the quidditch team doesn't mean that they actively discriminate. Is there cannon to support any girls on the Hufflepuff team? (I would probably be pretty distracted by Cedric ;-)) Can anyone honestly see Pansy Parkinson riding a broom and getting all muddy? I can't. And, back to the DE's, I see Bellatrix Lestrange as more of an anomally than the norm. I personally think that she has some relationship to LV that we don't know yet, and that there is some overriding factor that convinces LV of her loyalty, despite the fact that she is a woman. Anyway, back to lurkdom I go. Meri (who will be v. disappointed in JKR if LV and Bellatrix aren't caught somewhere snogging in DE HQ sometime in the next two books, cause even a dark lord needs a little love) From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Sun Feb 29 15:41:29 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:41:29 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem - LV's fear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Kristen wrote: > > > > > The question is, why is LV fearful? I see 3 possibilities: > > 1. his previous victims are circling him (direct implication of > text) > > 2. the Phoenix song going through the web (Kristen's previous post) > > 3. Through the connection, LV is being bombarded with Harry's > > emotions (Morgan's post) > > > > Might I add a possible #4? That Voldy is fearful because he does > not EXPECT Harry to be able to duel with him? He has--at least > outwardly--been belittling Harry and implying that he's a nothing. > Then the duel begins, and Harry proves to be QUITE strong. Voldy > has to be shocked both by the "reappearance" of his previous victims > and by Harry's ability to hang in there in the battle. I would > think that might strike true terror into him, esp. when he > presumably thought he would be able to deal with Potter in quite > short order. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan An excellent point. I wonder if we could get one of the admins to set this up as a poll. Why was LV fearful during the priori incantatem at the grave? > > The question is, why is LV fearful? I see 3 possibilities: > > 1. his previous victims are circling him (direct implication of > text) > > 2. the Phoenix song going through the web (Kristen's previous post) > > 3. Through the connection, LV is being bombarded with Harry's > > emotions (Morgan's post) 4. That Voldy is fearful because he does > not EXPECT Harry to be able to duel with him [and be stronger]? (Siriusly Snapey Susan's post) Dare I suggest, perhaps, a combination! :) Kristen From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Feb 29 16:02:16 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 29 Feb 2004 16:02:16 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1078070536.33.52931.m9@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91814 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, February 29, 2004 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Feb 29 16:12:33 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:12:33 -0000 Subject: Why didn't DD visit Sirius in Azkaban ? (was Cedric and Pettigrew ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91815 > Carolyn (following this renewed re-hash with great interest!): > > That's another curious point. Sirius had been banged up in Azkaban for 12 years. Why has DD NOT gone to visit him, at least to get Sirius's version of events, even if he can't get him out ? I can't believe DD wasn't able to get permission to do this if he wanted to, as head of Wizengamot, Chief Mugwump etc etc. I find myself torn between two possible explanations: <> The only person whom we know was allowed to visit someone in Azkaban was Crouch, and Sirius says it was only because he was an important Ministry member. If it takes a load of string-pulling for parents to visit their dying son , permission might not be readily granted even to Dumbledore. It's not clear whether Dumbledore was head of the Wizengamot at that time. He doesn't seem to have any special position at the Pensieve trials. Dumbledore is very reluctant to bend the rules for friendship's sake and he's sensitive to the appearance that he's interfering with the Ministry -- he let Fudge put Hagrid in Azkaban, though he believed that Hagrid was innocent. Dumbledore had concluded that Sirius was indeed the Secret-Keeper and guilty. If Sirius was the spy, he'd been deceiving Dumbledore the Legilimens for upwards of twelve months, so Dumbledore was unlikely to think he could establish Sirius's innocence just by questioning him. Veritaserum? It might have been used. Sirius blamed himself for James and Lily's deaths. Supposing he was questioned as to whether he was responsible for leading Voldemort to them, he might well have said Yes. Pippin From spaebrun at yahoo.com Sat Feb 28 15:04:36 2004 From: spaebrun at yahoo.com (spaebrun) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 15:04:36 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91816 Sophierom wrote: > I don't know what the ghost-like figures were hissing, but perhaps > Dumbledore, along with LV's many other victims, could actually do > something more than just scare LV. Again, in the GOF graveyard > scene, JKR writes that the echoes were "closing in" on Voldemort > (668). In that scene, the echoes are only strong and numerous enough > to provide Harry with the time to escape. If Harry had been healthy > and more confident, could the echoes have done something more? If > not, why was LV so afraid of them? Could echoes serve a similar role > to dementors? My first 2, err, 3 cents here on the board :-) : 1) I don't think Harry's condition has an influence on the strength of the priori incantatem figures. After the effort of forcing the 'beads of light' back to Voldemort's wand, he just had to maintain the connection, but the figures acted on their own account. He didn't control them, so he wouldn't have been able to make them stronger if he'd been healthier at that point. 2) As for Voldemort being shocked, I always assumed he was just completely surprised and confused that his easy kill didn't work. But yes, it might well be the case that the effect would be really dangerous for him - for example if Harry had held the connection longer and even more victims would have appeared who together might be powerful enough to overwhelm him. The idea intriguing, as is the thought about a dead Dumbledore reappearing... ...*but*, 3) I don't think we'll see Priori incantatem again - at least not in the final confrontation between Harry and Voldmort. In fact, I *hope* we won't. It was a really brilliant and original idea in GoF, but, honestly, bringing almost exactly the same thing back at the climax of the whole series... not very satisfying... Reed From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 15:03:00 2004 From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (Sarah) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:03:00 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherins/DE and Girls References: Message-ID: <006d01c3fed5$1fff9ac0$0600a8c0@HOMESARAH> No: HPFGUIDX 91817 Meri: > And, back to the DE's, I see > Bellatrix Lestrange as more of an anomally than the norm. Sarah: I would simply add that from the combat in the veil room, it seems that she is clearly one of the better fighters that Voldemort has. She runs circles around his male DEs where duelling is concerned, in this battle, anyway. And she isn't even long out of Azkaban. I think if more (evil) females could fight like Bellatrix, there would probably be more female DEs. An urge to search the books for references of the female Slytherins hexing people is taking over. I tend to see most of the school-age Slytherin girls, as well as the adult women with ties to Voldemort, as being less hands-on. I'm not sure what I base that on, it's just an impression. Sarah From pjcousins at btinternet.com Sun Feb 29 16:38:29 2004 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:38:29 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91818 Kneasy has generated some keen responses on this thread and done a grand job of linking them together in post #91809. The crucial question of who saw LV vaporised at Godric's Hollow and released the news to the WW remains unresolved. I don't think PP would volunteer the news to the WW, if he had accompanied LV, no benefit to him. Who do we know who regularly lets things slip that should remain secret? What IF Hagrid rescues Harry, and Harry isn't just Harry, but Harry! Mort,rather like Quirrel!Mort. After all, Harry is the only living thing left in the house. This may better explain Harry's mental connection to LV and skills like Parcelmouth. The "Missing 24 Hours" could be DD or St Mungo's or Madam Pomfrey separating LV from Harry. Hagrid watches the separation and sees LV escape in vapour form, as from Quirrel. Hagrid was not supposed to tell even McGonagall that Harry was to live at Privet Drive, but seeing LV vapoured would be far too much for Hagrid to keep quiet. As a post script and off topic. Has it been noted before that the Head of Slytherin House is played by:- ASP Rickman! Something Trelawney should have predicted. Alan Sidney Patrick Rickman biography from http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0000614/bio Phil From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Feb 29 17:33:13 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:33:13 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91819 Naama >>Another point. If Peter's death was necessary to prevent his telling the identitiy of the second, more important, double agent, an immediate corollary is that Peter knows his identity. Since you obviously mean the second double agent as Lupin, why didn't Peter confront Lupin with this in the Shrieking Shack? Once Lupin had returned the wands to the trio, why didn't he accuse Lupin of betraying the Potters, telling everything he knows, in the hope of turning the kids and Sirius against Lupin? << Pippin: Snape was unconscious. Even if Peter could somehow convince them all, it would still be two unarmed men and three kids, one of them badly hurt, against a Death Eater werewolf. Lupin was the biggest bully in the playground and he still had his own wand tucked into his belt. If he even needed it. Quirrell could cast a killing curse without a wand; we can't ignore the possibility that Lupin could too. Pippin previously: >> My theory is that once Voldemort was safely in the cauldron, our stealthy second wandsman darted in and put the wand in the pocket.<< Naama: >>I don't quite get this - Harry was meant to be well and dead - whether Voldemort resurrection succeeded or not. Why the secrecy, then?<< Pippin: Harry will be allowed his chance to speak and fight before the end. It would be inconvenient if he outed second wandsman in front of Voldemort's dubiously loyal henchwizards. Voldemort doesn't consider himself invulnerable, far from it. He hasn't lost his fear of Dumbledore and second wandsman is his spy in Dumbledore's camp. And if the spy is Lupin, there's an additional consideration...I don't imagine the likes of Lucius and MacNair would be happy to learn they'd been taking orders from a werewolf. Pippin From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Feb 29 17:45:07 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:45:07 -0000 Subject: Bye bye Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > Steve's theory that Kreacher's head is now adorning the wall at the > Black house made me wonder who actually does the chopping and > mounting. Is the worn-out elf actually decapitated and stuck up like > a hunting trophy? If so, who is swinging the axe? Or is it all done > by magic? Also, is this practice of mounting elf-heads peculiar to > the Blacks or is it widespread among the nastier kind of pureblood? > Sylvia (so many things to ponder!) It's probably one of the first household duties of their replacement. "Make the breakfast, check for owl post, decapitate Kreacher...." Good management technique, let's 'em know the penalty for not being up to scratch. Of course, if you wanted to be really vicious, you make Kreacher do it to himself. "Just stick my head through this plank... nail my ears to it....now where's that guillotine?" Kneasy From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 29 17:56:37 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:56:37 -0000 Subject: Bye bye Kreacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91821 Of course Kneasy is right. The last duty of a house-elf in the service of the Black family would be to cut off his own head. It's the least he can do. I suppose it would have to be by guillotine. Otherwise, as Koko points out in The Mikado, self-decapitation is an extremely difficult, not to say dangerous thing. Don't it conjure up a lovely picture, though! Sylvia From andie1 at earthlink.net Sun Feb 29 18:29:45 2004 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:29:45 -0000 Subject: Where is Pettigrew? In-Reply-To: <00c001c3fe77$5a7842a0$6401a8c0@sd.cox.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91822 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Heather Maffioli" wrote: > KTG wrote: > > I've been following the Lupin conspiracy thread put forth by Pippin, > > and I'm afraid to ask a silly question. > > > > *Where* is Pettigrew? I have heard a theor surrounding Percy & Pettigrew - somehow Pettigrew is controlling Percy by the Imperius Curse. In addition to that - a Fake!Percy (aka Pettigrew as Percy via Polyjuice). Not sure how much I buy into it, but it is a theory. Andrea From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Feb 29 19:05:00 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:05:00 +0000 Subject: In the beginning Message-ID: <2C691372-6AEA-11D8-BDA3-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91823 The recent Cedric/Pettigrew thread stirred things in the depths of my fevered mind. Previously unsuspected devious doings revealed themselves to my questing imagination. According to DD in CoS, the ability to speak Parceltongue was 'given' to Harry by Voldy. You can give something besides rigor mortis in an AK? That seems a bit odd. Hmm. OK. Kneasy is off into the realms of the fantastic (that's nothing new, you cry). Harry's earliest memories are vague scenes involving a green flash and Lily's voice and they usually occur at times of great stress. It is generally accepted that this flash is the AK that killed Lily. ("Get out of the way, girl.) But since AKs have to be specifically aimed, there should have been *two* green flashes; the second being the one that gave him the scar and rebounded to destroy Voldy. But what if there were only one? What would that mean? Many posters have commented on the fact that in the graveyard duel James and Lily appear from Voldy's wand, but there is no sign of the spell that marked Harry and crunched Voldy. Something that momentous would surely register in the Ollivander wand (TM) memory banks. During the graveyard scene Voldy gives us some interesting snippets of information. Lily's love has long been a favourite theme on the site with fans drawing the conclusion that 'love' is the reason for Harry's survival. It may be a bit more subtle that that; Voldy tells us that it was her 'sacrifice' that gave him 'unwitting protection'. I wonder if it was all that unwitting. Take that scar. It's turned out to be a useful early-warning device giving due notice that Voldy is up to something in regard to Harry. Why is that? A sort of immunisation maybe? Harry's had one dose of Voldy and so he's immune? Not really likely - if that were the case Voldy wouldn't be able to influence his thoughts so easily. What if the scar were the result of a 'protective' spell cast by Lily? Sure, I know, lots of quotes in canon about "the scar that Voldy gave you", but in cold fact, that's an assumption. Who saw it happen? The rarity of curse scars is canon, but there's never any indication of how they are produced or what effect they have, though DD reckons this one could be very useful. This, if correct, would explain the memory of only one green flash, because there was only one, the one that killed Lily, but if she gave Harry specific protection before she died, that her sacrifice was not to defend herself but to protect Harry with a suitable spell instead..... Hmm. Many of us have previously wondered why she didn't use her wand - maybe she did. A couple of weeks back I was arguing that Voldemort was an amalgamation of Tom Riddle and essence of Salazar with SS in control. In CoS Harry feels that Diary!Tom is very familiar, that he almost recognises him. How could he? We are told that Voldy comes back from his years of travel and study of the Dark Arts "greatly changed". So the Voldy at Godrics Hollow would look very different from dear old Tom. But has his captured personality changed since he was absorbed into Sally? Is this what Harry senses he has encountered before? Voldy's motives seem to conflict at times. We have accepted that he wants to wipe Harry off the face of the globe as his main priority, but this is not necessarily always the case. There are occasions when he tries to use Harry, as in OoP, firstly to strike at DD and then to obtain the Prophecy. In PS/SS his concern is the Stone, not Harry - death threats only come when Harry doesn't co-operate. So he's ambivalent - sometimes Harry is an obstruction to be removed, sometimes a potentially useful tool. Voldy knows just a bit of the Prophecy, and the first line is "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches..." Power. How useful. Comes in a handy sized package, too. What if Voldy didn't go to Godrics Hollow to kill Harry but to absorb him the way he did Tom. Good way to get rid of a future problem before it happens. May up his power ratings too. Such an attack might open Voldy's mind to Harry as Voldy tries to slurp Harry's consciousness into the multiple personality - and in there Harry would see Tom. And if Lily's protective spell caused Voldy to be violently repulsed and to discorporate, leaving a scar to mark the attempt, then Harry may be left with a vague memory of this sixteen year old boy who seems very familiar somehow. Other things stuck too - bit like an unwelcome guest being thrown out but leaving his baggage behind. Parceltongue and what else? Have to wait and see, but as it's from Sally, it won't be very nice. Kneasy From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 19:23:12 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:23:12 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91824 Phil: > Kneasy has generated some keen responses on this thread > and done a grand job of linking them together in post #91809. > What IF Hagrid rescues Harry, and Harry isn't just Harry, but Harry! > Mort,rather like Quirrel!Mort. After all, Harry is the only living > thing left in the house. > This may better explain Harry's mental connection to LV and skills > like Parcelmouth. > The "Missing 24 Hours" could be DD or St Mungo's or Madam Pomfrey > separating LV from Harry. Hagrid watches the separation and sees LV > escape in vapour form, as from Quirrel. Hagrid was not supposed to > tell even McGonagall that Harry was to live at Privet Drive, but > seeing LV vapoured would be far too much for Hagrid to keep quiet. Annemehr: Whoa! I never thought of that before, but why not? Voldemort finds himself vaporised and wandless, but with one power left to him: that he can possess the bodies of others. But is there a catch? All our information comes from GoF, where LV is telling his DEs how he'd survived and come back. Some quotes from ch. 33, "The Death Eaters": "His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen....I could not touch the boy." "I remember only forcing myself, sleeplessly, endlessly, second by second, to exist....I settled in a faraway place, in a forest, and I waited...." "Only one power remained to me. I could possess the bodies of others. But I dared not go where other humans were plentiful, for I knew that the Aurors were still abroad and serching for me." Voldemort finds himself bodiless and helpless, near his fifteen-month-old enemy. Would possessing him give him any more power than being in vapor form? A fifteen-month-old can certainly hold a wand. Alternatively, LV might have hoped to have just killed Harry outright, since those he possesses do tend to die. But this is Harry Potter, whom he cannot touch. If he risked trying to possess him, wouldn't it be possible that he'd be comletely destroyed by Harry's mother's protection? Could he possibly assume that Lily's sacrifice had done what it could, and that he'd be invulnerable in his vapor form? The second quote suggests that LV was perhaps a bit disoriented at first -- perhaps he didn't know he had the power of possession right away, and the third quote suggests that possessing Harry might be dangerous in that he could be discovered by Aurors. It's a very interesting possibility that LV may have tried to possess Harry at Godric's Hollow, but I'm thinking he may not have dared to. Off the point, but interesting to me, in the third quote LV says that the power of possession *remained* to him. Who'd he been possessing before he was vaporised, then? It does imply that LV'd been possessing people when he still had a body, so when he did it to Harry in the MoM, I guess that was another instance of the same. I still wonder how he does that, and what he's doing with his own body at the time he's possessing Harry's. Annemehr who's really hoping to have time for Chat today, but it's not looking good :-( From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Feb 29 19:58:00 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:58:00 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?) References: <1078053652.6748.8759.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001e01c3fefe$55db75a0$5c4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 91825 Pip!Squeak noted: > Two words: 'heavy' and 'lifting'. The house was destroyed; I reckon > it fell down on top of Harry (the mysterious wizarding ability to > survive normal accidents protecting him from falling masonry). Could be other ways though. "Accio baby" perhaps. Also, it appears that Hagrid was on his own getting Harry out, you'd have thought that a bit of assistance would have been in order, given the importance of the occasion... Pip!Squeak again: > Maybe. But Snape could have easily *not* known who the traitor was. > If he'd been told by DD that Sirius was the Secret Keeper then only > Sirius *could* be the betrayer. Peter might want to betray, but if > he wasn't the Secret Keeper, he had no way of revealing the Secret. Possibly so. Canon doesn't help here. I've surmised elsewhere that Snape _did_ know and should have been Voldemort's 3rd man at Godric's Hollow, instead he chose that moment to change sides. It also depends on how you read the missing persons in the graveyard scene. If Snape is the "traitor", then he must have been fairly high in Voldemort's organisation to be mentioned in that way. Meanwhile, Annemehr wondered: > I don't know how the WW at large found out, but since OoP I wonder if > DD hadn't had one of those "reliable methods of communicating" with > the Potters, or some sort of trouble detector. In a world with > sneakoscopes and foe glasses, and magic two-way mirrors, I would think > he would have. Only problem with the theory of the "surveillance device" is to wonder who's watching it, and why. Everyone believes that the Potters are safely protected by the Fidelius. If that's so, then having someone sitting in the same room as a trouble detector could look like overkill. And DD definitely _does_ trust the Fidelius, otherwise he wouldn't be using it to protect Grimmauld Place. Annemehr: > Dumbledore wouldn't send anyone from the Ministry. Hagrid is someone > DD would trust with his life, and handily enough, stunners (and who > knows what else) bounce right off him. He might have sent *only* > Hagrid because of the trust factor, too. There were (and still are) members of the Order who are aurors. Assuming they weren't on duty elsewhere (and where else would they be that night?) then they'd be far better fitted to take on Voldemort than Hagrid, who's got good natural defences but who (as JKR has mentioned) isn't that hot at magic. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From pjcousins at btinternet.com Sun Feb 29 20:19:12 2004 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:19:12 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91826 >Annemehr: in post #91824 > >Whoa! I never thought of that before, but why not? Voldemort finds >himself vaporised and wandless, but with one power left to him: that >he can possess the bodies of others. > >But is there a catch? All our information comes from GoF, where LV is >telling his DEs how he'd survived and come back. Some quotes from ch. >33, "The Death Eaters": > >"His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly >provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen....I could >not touch the boy." > >"I remember only forcing myself, sleeplessly, endlessly, second by >second, to exist....I settled in a faraway place, in a forest, and I >waited...." > >"Only one power remained to me. I could possess the bodies of others. >But I dared not go where other humans were plentiful, for I knew that >the Aurors were still abroad and serching for me." > >Voldemort finds himself bodiless and helpless, near his >fifteen-month-old enemy. Would possessing him give him any more power >than being in vapor form? A fifteen-month-old can certainly hold a >wand. Alternatively, LV might have hoped to have just killed Harry >outright, since those he possesses do tend to die. > >But this is Harry Potter, whom he cannot touch. If he risked trying >to possess him, wouldn't it be possible that he'd be comletely >destroyed by Harry's mother's protection? Could he possibly assume >that Lily's sacrifice had done what it could, and that he'd be >invulnerable in his vapor form? > >The second quote suggests that LV was perhaps a bit disoriented at >first -- perhaps he didn't know he had the power of possession right >away, and the third quote suggests that possessing Harry might be >dangerous in that he could be discovered by Aurors. > >It's a very interesting possibility that LV may have tried to possess >Harry at Godric's Hollow, but I'm thinking he may not have dared to. > >Off the point, but interesting to me, in the third quote LV says that >the power of possession *remained* to him. Who'd he been possessing >before he was vaporised, then? It does imply that LV'd been >possessing people when he still had a body, so when he did it to Harry >in the MoM, I guess that was another instance of the same. I still >wonder how he does that, and what he's doing with his own body at the >time he's possessing Harry's. > >Annemehr Now confusinglyso (Phil) The catch is, is LV telling the truth ? How would LV know he cannot touch Harry ? He must, at least, have tried to touch or possess him to learn he could not. We are limited for evidence (facts?) to the words of LV,( can we believe him?), and Dumbledore's brief explanations, again while not lies, do not tell Harry (or us), all necessary details. I am starting to believe Harry is more likely to absorb skills like Parcelmouth from LV possessing him, than from a misfiring AK spell. Phil. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Feb 29 20:28:44 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:28:44 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death) References: <1078071040.5553.46175.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005001c3ff02$a1023600$5c4e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 91827 Kneasy wrote: > If AKs were that destructive, I doubt that there would be any bodies > lying about after a DE raid. An AK from Voldy missed Harry in the > graveyard - it cracked a headstone, but it didn't vaporise the whole > damn plot. Maybe it was the latest development from the DE research department - AK combined with an industrial spell normally used to remove large amounts of rock in mining and quarrying! Getting past the whimsy, I think you're suggesting that Voldemort actually knew that a straight AK wouldn't be sufficient to work on Harry in the way that it had on Jim and Lil and therefore he tried to up the power in some way. How did he know that? Did he know more of the prophecy than we thought he did? Kneasy: > as his Press Agent. Fudge is a different matter. At the time he was not > Minister of Magic. Was he a DE in the raiding party? If he was, would > he advertise the fact by recounting the tale? If so, then what's his game? And what happened to the rest of the raiding party? Theoretically Voldemort's demise shouldn't have thrown his hard boiled lieutenants into such a panic that they all did a runner. I'm still not convinced that they were there. Kneasy: > Ffred, you're getting as bad as me. Kneasy: > I like the idea that the Longbottoms were there - it does explain why > they were later tortured, but why no mention in despatches from the > front-line? Can only answer that one elliptically. Possibly they weren't mentioned in the PS/SS conversation at the very beginning of the book because JKR hadn't introduced them as characters yet. Possibly they weren't mentioned in the POA conversation because they weren't present when Hagrid encountered Sirius, therefore Sirius wouldn't have mentioned them either. Not really satisfactory, I know... Kneasy: > A key question: when did James and Lily go into hiding? Was it a recent > development, or did it happen soon after Harry's birth, nearly 15 > months previously? How long determines how widespread the news was that > they were in hiding and therefore were likely to have a Secret Keeper. Has to have been recent. IIRC, DD heard from one of his spies in the DEs that Voldemort had decided that the prophecy related to the Potters and that was the news that prompted them to go into hiding. Otherwise not only would it have been noticeable to their friends, but also one would wonder how they could have played their role in the Order? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 20:58:14 2004 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:58:14 -0000 Subject: Where is Pettigrew? In-Reply-To: <00c001c3fe77$5a7842a0$6401a8c0@sd.cox.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Heather Maffioli" > Heather: I think that there is a huge clue on the bonus jacket art for the special boxed American edition. There is clearly a rat hiding in the grass out side GP. Many have suspected that animal are able to perceive magically hidden places and people. Is it possible that PP is in fact spying on the Order through out the book? Pettigrew could not be syping on the order because he would not be able to see the order. Since Dumbledore is the secret keeper of the order only those who were given the password by DD would be able to see it. Diana From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 21:53:28 2004 From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:53:28 -0000 Subject: Where is Pettigrew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana_Sirius_fan" wrote: > Pettigrew could not be syping on the order because he would not be > able to see the order. Since Dumbledore is the secret keeper of the > order only those who were given the password by DD would be able to > see it. Diana He would still be able to see who was coming and going, if he suspected it as a hiding place, because once they leave the building they are no longer under the protection of the Fidellius charm. psychobirdgirl From capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net Sun Feb 29 22:31:26 2004 From: capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net (capehoneysuckle) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:31:26 -0000 Subject: Who was on duty? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91830 When Harry and Co. arrive at the MOM to save Sirius, the security desk is deserted. "... the six of them sprinted off down the hall, Harry in the lead, past the fountain, toward the desk where the security man who had weighed Harry's wand had sat and which was now deserted." (OOP am ed 769) When they reach the door of the Dept of Mysteries, "He turned to face the door and walked forward. Just as it had in his dream, it swung open and he marched over the threshold, the others at this heels." (OOP am ed p.770) What happened to Eric Munch or his co-worker? A member of the OOP should have been on-duty at the door of the DoM as well. What happened to him or her? The OOP member on duty couldn't have been any of the group that arrived together. Dumbledore tells Harry, "Alastor Moody, Nymphadora Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt, and Remus Lupin were at headquarters when he (Snape) made contact. All agreed to go to your aid at once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment. In the meantime he, Professor Snape, intended to search the forest for you. (p 830). Someone else must have been on duty. The security guard and the DoM door guard might have been stunned, AKed, or petrified and dragged into a closet. The DEs would not want anyone to testify later about who or how many broke into the ministry (even if they were all in masks). They would need to take out the guards with at least a stunner and a memory charm, and I would be inclined to believe that an AK each would be much more likely under the circumstances. If the OOP guard was stunned or AKed and the body hidden while still in the invisibility cloak, the body might not be found until the next time the floors are waxed. The argument against the DEs using AK on the guards is that two deaths (not counting Sirius, since no one knows he was there) at the MOM would have made the papers, and even in his disturbed state of mind in the days after the battle, Harry would probably have noticed the death of a member of the OOP. Mr. and Mrs. Weasley both appear well in the last scene at King's Cross. Sturgis Podmore is still in Azkaban (I presume). Any guesses about who else in the OOP is missing and presumed dead after the battle? Honey, who hopes it isn't Aberforth. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 29 23:36:06 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:36:06 -0000 Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91831 > Kneasy: > Tut, tut! Bluesqueak, you're thinking in Muggle terms! That's not > like you! Wizards always, always, always, think of solutions to > problems by magical means. Except for those occasions when they take the tube. Or find out what's happening in Little Hangleton by the highly magical method of reading the local paper. :-) Pip!Squeak From tmar78 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 29 18:43:54 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:43:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: <1078053652.6748.8759.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040229184354.65379.qmail@web14102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 91833 Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: Yikes! Would *you* want Kreacher working in the Hogwarts kitchen? *I* wouldn't! He's such an unpleasant little bugger--who could get along with him? And I wouldn't trust him w/ my food preparation either! Tyler: But if he'd had his memory removed they could re-educate him, maybe make him nicer. After all, didn't Dumbledore say he was a nasty little bugger cause he was made that way by wizards? If that social programming was removed, he'd be a blank slate. There might just be a chance of helping him become a nice guy then (in theory). I dunno...I just find it hard to accept that Dumbledore had no other option but to continue letting him live at HQ knowing he was a potential danger. There just had to be another way. Isn't there some way of magically putting someone in an indefinite state of suspended animation maybe? Tyler ===== "It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." - Albus Dumbledore From kking0731 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 29 21:55:43 2004 From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:55:43 -0500 Subject: Priori Incantatem Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91840 There have been a lot of interesting thoughts about why LV was so fearful in the gold webbed dome in the graveyard scene. I looked at it something like this, LV reborn from: (1) The bone of a muggle (fool) (2) The flesh of a coward (3) And last but not least the blood of a person with pure love LV appears to already be affected by Harrys blood (when he relives memories that his mother died while giving birth to him and his fool father that gave him his name.) LV says Listen to me, reliving family history Why, I am growing quite sentimental. LV sentimental? This is the blood of pure love from Harry that now runs in his veins. LV becomes fearful when his wand starts to shake and priori incantatem begins emitting the shadows of his former murders. This is the flesh of the coward wormtail. By accepting wormtails flesh he weakened himself by also accepting his coward ness. LV tells Harry about his father I revenged myself upon him, that fool who gave me his name The muggle fool who gave LV his bone to be reborn may have passed on more than LV knows. How foolish was it to duel with Harry? LV needs to be afraid. His time is short. The very things that brought back his body may be the very downfall of his darkness. These things along with the fact that LV drank the blood of a unicorn, he is now to have but a half-life, a cursed life. Kathywho thinks LVs reign is through, he just doesnt know it yet! _________________________________________________________________ Stay informed on Election 2004 and the race to Super Tuesday. http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx From casieloo at bway.net Sun Feb 29 16:28:02 2004 From: casieloo at bway.net (leaverish) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:28:02 -0000 Subject: Priori Incantatem - LV's fear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91845 Kristen wrote: > > > > > The question is, why is LV fearful? I see 3 possibilities: > > > 1. his previous victims are circling him (direct implication of > > text) > > > 2. the Phoenix song going through the web (Kristen's previous > post) > > > 3. Through the connection, LV is being bombarded with Harry's > > > emotions (Morgan's post) Siriusly Snapey Susan replied: > > Might I add a possible #4? That Voldy is fearful because he does > > not EXPECT Harry to be able to duel with him? And a possible #5: "...and Voldemort's dead victims whispered words of encouragement to Harry, and hissed words Harry couldn't hear to Voldemort." And later (on the same page): "...Voldemort, his face now livid with fear as his victims prowled around him..." They whisper words of encouragement to Harry, but they HISS words Harry can't hear to LV. HISS? There's a certain animal that is known for hissing, and LV is known for being able to speak it's language. I think this is why we're specifically told that Harry, who speaks this language too, can't hear what they're saying. I wonder what they did actually tell LV that scared him so much? From jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 29 18:14:47 2004 From: jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk (jojobinks1983) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:14:47 -0000 Subject: McGonagall might be the evil one Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 91846 I probably haven't done my research properly here but is McGonagall in the order? She always seems suspiciously absent. Also, everyone else had an important task to do at the end of GoF, what did she do? You've got to admit she's an unlikely candidate for Voldemort's spy but isn't that sometimes the way? Can you see the paranoia taking over? Jo