Were Dumbledore & Snape involved in James & Lilly's death+ LV downfall?

[ilubom]

No: HPFGUIDX 90081

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> 
wrote:
> It [the prophecy] was overheard; there's nothing about the 
eavesdropper being a 
> Death Eater.

Irina:
Sorry, I should have said a LV supporter. Whoever supposedly 
overheard it reported it to LV, they wouldn't have done it if they 
didn't support him (that's why I don't think it was Dung - he was in 
the Order and would not have gone running to LV)

 
>Every low-life in 
> the WW probably knows there's money, no questions asked, in 
reporting 
> anything DD says. 

Irina:
I have to say that I don't recall LV's supporters ever been rewarded 
with money in any of the five books. It seems that they are doing it 
either for ideological reasons, to avoid death or to "join the 
biggest bully on the block" - ie to ingratiate themselves to someone 
who they think will be the greatest power in the world and hopefully 
get a share of that power.

> LV got lucky. It happens.  The folks at NSA pray for moments like 
that.

Irina:
On the contrary, LV got very, very, very unlucky. That is my point - 
the ONLY way LV could be defeated is if he marked one of the boys 
mentioned in the prophecy as "his equal". He found out just enough 
to encourage him to take the necessary steps to his own downfall  
(ie attack Harry), but not enough to put him on guard. 

Irina (previous post):
> > My theory is that Dumbledore, probably with Snape's assistance 
made 
> > sure that LV was aware of the first part of the prophesy and, in 
> > effect sent LV after Harry + his parents. 

Jim:
> It's not just crazy, it's repugnant.  Any of the "Evil Dumbledore' 
> theories, if true, would be the greatest betrayal of readeres by 
an 
> author, ever.  Unforgivable.  What would it tell readers, many of 
> them young?
> 
> ** People are no damn good.
> ** Everyone will betray you in the end; nobody can be trusted.
> ** Love, loyalty and service are not real. Only betrayal is real.
> 
>I don't believe for a second that JKR would do it.  That's not the 
same as saying Dumbledore can make a mistake; he has, several, the 
biggest one born of love and compassion for Harry and maybe a little 
> avoidance of causing pain - a human weakness.  What Harry can 
count on is that Dumbledore will do his best for him, flawed though 
it may be.


Irina:
I am not at all pushing an evil "DD theory". I think that, if Lily 
and James were in on the plan, this action would not be "evil" - it 
would be a tragic sacrifice on part of everyone concerned for the 
greater good of others. 

I do not think that good and evil in the books are simple concepts. 
The "good" and the "bad" characters are not neatly segregated and 
identified. In fact, Harry constantly learns that people are so 
complex that they cannot be divided into "good" and "bad".
For example - from the first book we learn that there is more to 
Snape than his nasty side, in the third book we learn that the "bad 
guy" Sirius is not what he seems and that the "good guy" Lupin 
risked the lives of those at Hogwarts by the antics of his youth and 
by not revealing to DD that Sirius is an animagus, in the fourth 
book we see Barty Crouch Snr as an incarnate of both "good" 
and "evil" in his fight against LV and his son as an "evil" 
mascarading as an innocent, frightened boy. In the fifth book we see 
Fudge and Percy, neither of whom are inately evil, doing all the 
wrong things, we learn that James had a side to his character even 
Harry can't be proud of and that Petunia may care more for Harry 
than she lets on. As Sirius tells Harry, we see that the "world is 
not divided into good people and deatheaters."

I think JKR's writing is sophisticated enough to create characters 
and plots that are not black and white but are imbued with moral 
dilemmas. And this would be one of those: if James and Lily were 
willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the multitudes that 
would have been destroyed by LV's continued reign - should DD have 
enabled it? What if they knew nothing about it - would he be 
justified in sacrificing them for the sake of thousands of others 
(Coming from a liberal ideological standpoint that each life is 
infinitely precious and may not be used as a numbers game, I would 
say "no", but minds may differ - a utilitarian perspective would 
lead to the opposite view)
I also note that DD does not view death as the worst thing that can 
happen to a person - he says as much to Harry in the first book and 
to LV in OoP when the latter is surprised that DD is not trying to 
kill him. It is plausible that he regarded death as a lesser of two 
evils.


> The hole here is that DD heard the prophecy, understood its 
> significance, and hatched a plan to have half of it overheard 
*after* 
> the fact. (We'll bring out the Time Turner next).  Why is this 
> explanation more believable than the one advanced?  

Irina:
No, I don't think it was overheard after the fact, I don't think it 
was overheard at all. I think that someone who LV trusted, but who 
was really playing for the other side (probably Snape) reported only 
the first part to LV on purpose - to make sure that LV took the 
steps necessary for his own downfall, but without knowing their 
significance.


> He did have time thereafter to have James and Lily betrayed to 
their deaths, knowing 
> that Lily would sacrifice herself in a way that would keep Harry 
> alive but leave him marked.  I doubt the "Mission Impossible" team 
> could have brought it off.

Irina:
DD knew about the ancient magic that saved Harry's life, he also 
knew that LV always underestimated it (DD says as much in PS). If 
Lily and James were in on the plan - they would certainly be very 
aware of it too. 

I think it is also curious that DD knew why Harry had survived 
immediately after the Potters' death - that is why he brought Harry 
to his aunt's house - he was putting his trust in Lily's blood, 
sealing her sacrifice, he says as much in OoP. 
I am wondering just how he knew that Lily died to save Harry - DD 
wasn't there, there were no witnesses to what happened at the 
Potters' house - so how did he know that it was Lily who gave her 
life to save Harry (she would not have died otherwise). DD figured 
it all out before even seeing Harry's scar - Hagrid was sent to 
fetch Harry and bring him to his aunt's house very quickly after the 
murders - Muggles didn't even have a chance to get into the house 
yet! Either there was some very good guess work and very quick 
thinking or DD knew what went down in Godric Hollow!

Sorry about the length of this everyone :-)