Did LV try to spare Lily? (was From Black to White (was Peter...)

[nkafkafi]

No: HPFGUIDX 90332

I'm combining posts from Steve (up thread), Naama (#90314 ) and Carol 
(#90320).

Neri wrote:

PS, Ch. 17 – The Man with Two Faces:

"Quirrell was walking backwards at him, so that Voldemort could still 
see him. The evil face was now smiling. "How touching ..." it 
hissed. "I always value bravery ... Yes, boy,
 your parents were brave ... I killed your father first and he put up 
a courageous fight ... but your mother needn't have died ... she was 
trying to protect you ... Now give me the Stone, unless you want her 
to have died in vain."

So LV remembered that Lily "needn't have died" ten years after the 
case. That doesn't sound like utter disinterest or yesterday rubbish. 
Also, for the plot it is essential that Lily needn't have died. If 
she had, then it would have been a simple murder, as was James' 
death, and not a sacrifice. So I think there is definitely something 
there.

bboy_mn:
Sorry, but your quote and statements confirm what I said (at least to 
me) rather than deny my conclusion.

First, and foremost, remember when Voldemort/Quirrel said this, he 
had ulterior motives. First he tried to convince Harry that he could 
bring his parents back to life if Harry would only join Voldemort.

Neri notes:
I can't remember anywhere in the book where LV suggests he can bring 
Harry's parents back to life. I seem to remember there was something 
like that in TMTMNBN, and personally I thought this prop was way 
overboard. 

bboy_mn:
When that didn't work, he tried to prey on fear, intimidation, and 
emotions.

Neri:
Do you suggest that LV did *not* remember that he said "step aside, 
silly girl", and ten years later he invented again this "but your 
mother needn't have died" in order to play on Harry's emotions? This 
is somewhat contrived. A simpler explanation is that he did remember 
it, which suggests it did have some significance for him.

bboy_mn:
Lily was inconsequential and insignificant to Voldemort which is 
exactly why she didn't have to die. As long as Voldemort got what he 
wanted, which was Harry dead, he could care less if Lily lived or 
died. So, he didn't kill her because she was part of his Grand Plot, 
she simply interferred with his objective, and Voldemort casually 
killed her rather than allow her to delay him from his goal.

Also Carol:
I imagine LV would have killed her as frosting on the cake after the 
main job was done, though maybe he would have enjoyed watching her 
suffer first. (If Bella was with him, I'm sure he'd have left Lily to 
her.) But, to repeat, I think he didn't kill her at first because he 
perceived her as an obstacle, not a threat. He didn't care whether 
she was dead or alive at that point, as long as she was out of his 
way. It was Harry's death that mattered.

Naama:
But all this applies just as well to James. If, as you say (and I 
agree with you), that Voldemort had one overriding objective and that 
was to kill Harry, then James is just as inconsequential to him as 
Lily at that point. But still, he differentiates between them - it is 
*Lily* who needn't have died. Why only she and not James?

Neri:
I agree. The books make it clear time and again that it was Lily's 
death, not James' death, that was critical for the protection of 
Harry and the first defeat of LV. There must be a principal 
difference between these two deaths. 

Carol:
I think the answer is contained in LV's words to Lily, "Step aside, 
you silly girl!" Clearly he doesn't perceive her as a threat, maybe 
because she's very young (about twenty-one: note "girl," not "woman") 
and Muggle-born--both possible grounds for contempt in LV's view in 
anyone who isn't "the one" (killing off Muggle-borns has ceased to 
matter to him now, as Tom Riddle tells us in CoS)--and she's female 
to boot.

Naama:
I seem to detect an underlying assumption here, which is that 
Voldemort would have seen James as a threat and therefore James' 
death was necessary to him. Lily, on the other hand, he wouldn't see 
as a threat, and therefore didn't have to kill her. I think this 
reflects a kind of male chauvinism which doesn't seem to apply to the 
WW, or even to Voldemort himself. At least, we don't have any 
evidence for it. Witches are just as powerful as men in the WW, and 
this seems to be taken for granted in the Potterverse.

Neri:
I agree. Hermione and McGonagall are powerful at least as much as 
their male peers, and the most powerful and dangerous supporter of LV 
himself is Bellatrix. LV *is* extremely arrogant, but he is clearly 
not arrogant towards females more than he is arrogant towards males.

Naama:
Another point I'd like to make is that Voldemort and his followers 
take pleasure in killing and torturing for its own sake. I would have 
thought that for Voldemort the question wouldn't be "why kill" 
but "why not kill". So, if he didn't just automatically, 
unthinkingly, kill her, there must have been some reason for it. For 
some reason Lily was someone he preferred *not* to kill.

Neri:
I agree again with Naama, and would like to add: if Lily and/or the 
reader believe that LV would have killed Harry first because this was 
his major objective, and only after that would have taken his time 
killing Lily (even only as squashing a fly), then Lily's death is not 
a real sacrifice (no more than James' death, for sure), but a matter 
of her choosing if she prefer to die before or after her son. 

bboy_mn:
That's from Voldemort's perspective. But he is someone who really 
doesn't understand the world and people around him very well; he way 
to abosorbed in himself. That's what will eventually lead to his 
downfall again, and that is at the core of all the classic 'Evil 
Overlord' mistakes that he makes in every book. He is supreme in his 
arrogance.

Neri:
At the time the prophecy was made, James and Lily had already defied 
LV no less than three times. I can't think of anything that would irk 
the "Dark Lord" more than that, even if he is so arrogant he doesn't 
regard them as real opponents. So, while LV's major objective was 
certainly killing Harry, logic would have suggested that finally 
nailing both James and Lily would have been an important bonus for 
him.

bboy_mn:
Logically, what parent would casually step aside while the most evil 
wizard in a century killed their child? I'm pretty sure, that those 
parents would be in an extreme minority. <snip>

Neri:
Yes. This is why I tend to believe that Lily did cast some special 
charm of "Old Magic". But still, the books make it very clear that 
the death of James, who also put himself between LV and his family, 
was not the one who sealed the Old Magic. It required 
Lily's "sacrifice". And it would only be a real sacrifice if 
Lily "needn't have died". 

bboy_mn:
I think it makes much more sense to assume that Lily was of little or 
no consequence than to fantasize that somebody or other was in love 
with somebody else (Lupin/Lily, Snape/Lily, Voldemort/Lily, 
Wormtail/Lily, Trevor_the_Toad/Lily, etc...), or somebody owned 
somebody something (life debt), or that some unlikely character is 
related to some other unlikely character (Harry/Lily/James's 
uncle/cousin/father/grandfather is 
Snape/Slytherin/Riddle/Voldemort/Dumbledore/Griffindor/etc...).

Neri:
I readily agree with you that many of these explanations seem like 
terrible clichés, if not outright ridiculous. Although, to be fair to 
JKR, I don't believe she imagined, when she first invented the major 
plot, that several internet forums will discuss to death every 
possible explanation, coding them with imaginative/silly acronyms, 
until they all become terrible clichés. Another possibility is that 
JKR will never give a satisfactory explanation why LV tried to spare 
Lily. But I think that just the fact that he did (rather than his 
reasons) is essential to the plot and for the whole theme of self-
sacrifice in the books. Without it, Lily's death is no more of a 
sacrifice than James' death. But if JKR is indeed a great author, she 
may yet manage to give an explanation that will not look like a 
cliché, and will solve some additional mysteries regarding the past. 
We'll just have to wait and see.


Neri