Pettigrew Power (Was: James Potter Bio Facts)

[ghinghapuss]

No: HPFGUIDX 90335

Regrettably I had snip, a lot, but the post would be far too long.

Hitomi wrote:
Ok, to be honest, when I first read your opinion, it disturbed me.
<snipped a very good quote from JKR>

Mandy here:
Oh goodie. ;-)  It's by studying the `evil' people in the world 
which will increase our understanding of what make some of us do 
despicable things and other not. Just condemning them will not 
change anything. 


Hitomi wrote:
Peter's insecurity is not his only weakness. To be perfectly
honest, we don't actually know if he was insecure, if he actually
thought less of himself. We know Neville is insecure, for obvious
reasons. But I think that it is a profound mistake to believe Peter
is the way he is due to insecurity. Insecure people certainly do
not turn into mass murderers as a rule.

Mandy here
Neither do abused children, as a rule, but some do. We don't know 
hardly anything about Peter Pettigrew which makes debating his 
behavior very difficult, and it is unfair to compare him to Neville 
who is character we know so much about.  Peter is almost certainly 
insecure. Unsure of his own abilities which leads him to live in the 
shadow of boys who are very secure and confident.  We all learn from 
the example of others, both positively and negatively.  The strength 
of others inspires us.


Hitomi wrote:
<snip> But more than likely, Peter just became James's and Sirius' 
friend out of fear. It's far easier to be their friend than their 
enemy,

Mandy here
Classic insecure behavior!  Peter doesn't have the self confidence 
to believe he could stand up to these boys so he ingratiates himself 
to them.


Hitomi wrote:
<snip>and he couldn't possibly have deluded himself into believing 
James and Sirius were wonderful people. 

Mandy here
Why not? The rest of the school did.   Peter put up with the crap 
James and Sirius dished because of his desire to be friends with the 
top dogs in school.  Of course Peter thought they were wonderful.  
Peter has proven himself to be sneaky, intelligent and crafty if he 
had to pick a crew to hang out with, who could offer the protection 
and reflected glory he craved, who else would he pick? 


Hitomi wrote:
They weren't terrible people,
they didn't delight in evil or anything so obvious, and they picked
on those whom they believed deserved it, such as Mr. Dark-Arts-
Himself-Snivellus-Snape. But they were arrogant, cruel to those
such as Snape and those they didn't like; and as we all know, there
is nothing more cruel than a child in all its purity.

Mandy here:
They weren't terrible people! Are you kidding?  Of course they 
were.  However we can forgive them for it because they were 
children, and as you yourself mention below, children don't 
understand compassion.  But it doesn't make their behavior any less 
terrible.  James and Sirius behaved in a despicably cruel and 
terrible way towards Snape in the one example of their bullying we 
have in OotP. And it has been said from their own mouths, that they 
hexed kids in the corridors because they could. Not to mention 
Sirius attempted to KILL Severus when he was 16!  We have no 
evidence to prove or disprove they only picked on kids they didn't 
like.  And your implication that it is OK to bully a child 
who `deserves' it, is very disturbing.  Who determines what kind of 
behavior `deserves' the bulling treatment? The bully himself?  I 
sure James and Sirius could find a very good reason to determine who 
deserved their wrath whenever it suited them.


Hitomi wrote:
<snipped a very interesting analysis on Harry's difference from 
James and Sirius.> But back to my point, James and Sirius were 
typical children, and then typical teenagers. I just graduated from 
high school, and I'm a Japanese minority, one of the "smart" kids, 
and I know what the cruelty of my peers can be. 

Mandy here:
Well, we have something in common then, and in common with Peter 
himself.  The cruelty of kids in school.  I was the little shy, 
insecure girl who was `lucky' enough to be friends with the cool 
girls only to have them pick on me when no-one else was around.  
Sound familiar. Yep, it's why I relate t Peter I suppose.  Although 
I haven't killed anyone. Yet.  :-) I'm joking. 


Hitomi wrote:
But had Pettigrew EVER cared for them, he would never have been able 
to do what he did.

Mandy here:
Well that depends on how you define care.  I think you will find 
that many serial killers care deeply for their victims before and 
while they are torturing and killing them.  Peter cared and loved 
his friends but switched that affection to a new God when he found 
it.  


Hitomi wrote:
Peter's abilities were as good as theirs, because they helped him.
They helped him become an animagus (Book 3).

Mandy here:
There it is: underestimating Peter and proving my original argument.
If it was that easy to become an animagi that there would be 
thousands running around. A witch or wizard could simply ask their 
neighbor to help them out and, boom, an other animagi! After all its 
an incredibly useful ability, desirous of many witches and wizards I 
would imagine. Who wouldn't want to be able to change into an animal 
even for fun?  But we know it is very difficult magic to achieve and 
very few are able to do it. 


Hitomi wrote:
This is, in my opinion, a gross over-sympathetic view. Peter did
turn his back on his "friends," and James and Sirius were certainly
not great friends back then. 

Mandy here
I'm under the impression that the Maurders were the greatest of 
friends.  If you don't believe that, how can the devastating 
revelation of the horror of betrayal and the astounding beauty of 
forgiveness at the end of PoA mean anything?  The book profound and 
moving because of the redemption of Remus and Sirius, the discovery 
of their mutual distrust for over 13 years, and their lost and found 
love.  And of course the discovery, by Remus of the true betrayer; 
Peter Pettigrew.


Hitomi wrote:
But they grew up, they learned better,
and they became decent people. And THAT is when Peter betrayed
them. And not just James. Lily and their one-year-old son. 

Mandy here
One of the tragedies of the saga is that fact that none of the 
Mauders, with the exception of Remus, grew-up.  Peter betrayed, 
James died and Sirius went to prison only 2 years out of school.  20 
years old is still very young, inexperienced and naive.  Granted, 
they lived in a time of war so they most likely grew up faster than 
kids today, but they were still young adult men and behaved and 
thought like young adult men and made mistakes like young adult men.


Hitomi wrote:
People love to over-sympathize with those that are bullied,
because this is one of the few instances in the series that we can
truly relate to. Most of Harry's situations we can't, they're too
unreal. And Peter and Snape were bullied, but that does NOT excuse
Snape having ever become a Death Eater, or his obvious cruelty to
his students. 

Mandy here
I'm not over sympathizing with Peter.  As I said in my original post 
he is a despicable person, but evil people are still human.  No 
matter how we all hate to admit it.  Even Hitler was human, had a 
mother, and was made of flesh and blood, just like us. But much of 
the behavior of these despicable people is formed in their youth. 
Note I say much, "not all", as this not an excuse.  We all have to 
grow up a take responsibility for our actions. But when your dealing 
with a man as young as Peter was when he betrayed James, you have to 
consider his treatment by those around him and understand that they, 
while they are not responsible, hold a key to his behavior.   Peter 
now, at 35, is a very different story.  He has grown up and he will 
reap what he has sown.  He will be forced to pay for what he has 
done.


Hitomi wrote:
And I highly doubt that Voldemort was ever kind to Peter. He
probably just promised him that "reflected glory," and Peter went
running, like the weak idiot he is. He even said in Book 3, that to
not be LV's follower was equivalent to suicide. His friends weren't
the strongest anymore, to hang around them was to remain
vulnerable. To become LV's follower was to become safe. 

Mandy here
You don't think that giving Peter a silver hand was an act of 
kindness?  Not from LV's point of view it wasn't LV was taking care 
of business, but to Peter, oh God yes it was kind!  He practically 
wept with joy when he received that `gift.'  Ok, he was weeping in 
agony as well, but joy and despair are so far apart they meet in the 
middle.  It was a gift from his God.


Hitomi wrote:
Peter values his life over anyone else's, over all else. That's
arrogance, not insecurity. 

Mandy here
Agreed it is arrogance but it's an arrogance that is born out of 
insecurity, born out of the desperation that Peter believe he simply 
has no other option but to do whatever it takes to survive.  He can 
not conceive of any other way out because he is restricted by his 
narrow self-perception.  He is too scared to take another road, to 
choose another path.  I argue that this is not weakness because it 
takes just as much courage to do the wrong thing when it hurts those 
you love, as it does to do the right.  As a society we are not 
taught this because society wants to reward us for doing the right 
thing and scare us in to avoiding the wrong path.  For good reasons, 
please don't think I promoting bad behavior. I'm not. 


Hitomi wrote:
He believes his life to be worth more
than goodness, than the lives of those he supposedly "loves," than
the life of a one-year-old boy who had not yet had the chance to
live. Sirius admitted he would have died for Peter. He said James
would have as well. Peter turned his back on their love, however
badly they may have expressed it. And he turned towards the epitome
of hate. Peter is beyond despicable. He is evil.  <snip>

Mandy here
Sure Peter is evil, despicable, sad, but he still needs to be a 3-
dimentional character.  

You want to believe that Peter didn't care for James and Sirius 
because than you can believe it was easy for him to turn on them and 
there-for deduce that he was weak. Boring.

I believe Peter loved James and Sirius and it was the hardest thing 
in the world for him to turn against them.  It tore him apart, left 
him living in hell everyday for the rest of his life.  
	
Now doesn't that make for a much more exciting and dramatic plot 
line?  Doesn't it make Peter Pettigrew more interesting, 3-
dimentional and conflicted?  Even if you hate him. I think so.  


Hitomi wrote:
And I don't think people underestimate Peter anymore. They know
what he's capable of now. 

Mandy here:
In the story not as much, but outside the story in the HP for GP 
world, it appears just about everybody is still underestimating 
Peter.


Hitomi wrote:
But Peter is predictable. Just look for
the most powerful person, and there you will find Peter Pettigrew.
The name Wormtail really does fit him.

Mandy here:
Was predictable, yes, but possibly not any more.  Where was he 
through out OotP?  Working for LV?  Yes, but where? What was he 
doing? Peter is missing in action right now and that is a very scary 
prospect indeed.


Hitomi wrote:
I don't expect anyone to share my strong feelings of dislike for
this character. I just can't understand how you could possibly like
him. Hitomi, who sticks Peter in the same category as Bellatrix,
Lucius, and Umbridge

Mandy here
Don't worry your not alone.  And I'm sure you are going to cringe 
when I say I like Lucius, Bellatrix and Umbridge as much as I do 
Peter.  The `bad' characters, in fiction and non-fiction always 
fascinate me because they represent the dark side of human nature.  
Those thoughts we all have, occasionally, and are terrified and 
embarrassed of.  Yet these people act on them.  Why?  For some 
reason they are not censored, either because do abuse, neglect, a 
multitude of reasons, or, occasionally, just born that way.  We 
can't have light with out dark, good without evil and kindness 
without nastiness.   

Mandy, who doesn't find the good characters boring at all.  I just 
find the bad ones more interesting, conflicted and delightful.