[HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's revenge on Snape?

[Silverthorne Dragon]

No: HPFGUIDX 90520

{Alla}

I would like to emphasize that Harry is my absolute favourite character in
the books. So, first and foremost I care about what will help HIM, not
Snape: what will heal HARRY, not Snape. Again I can't help but think that
this is very strange reaction for me. :o) and I guess part of JKR genuis.
:o)

{Anne}

Your 'favorite' is indeed obvious in the way you defend him to the exclusion
of all others, including his number one protector, Dumbledore. No arguement
there, and no condemnation either, but considering what you hint at in your
own belief system, I am not surprised either. It is obvious you empathize
completely with him. That's not a bad thing...but there is such a thing as
over-empathizing...^^;

{Alla}

I have to think whether the fact that Harry is an orphaned child is the main
reason that I want hug him and make it all better? :o)

{Anne}

Very likely, especially if you can find parallels in your own life to
compare his situation to, which is often how people find thier favorite
character to empathize with within any story. I actaully do empathize with
Harry, but I empathize with Snape more (after the events of book 4, BTW,
once we got a little more info on him than just "Bullying Professor")
because his childhood seems to have mirrored mine in many ways. From what
little we  the audience think we know-- Snape has an abusive parent,  was
not well liked by his peers for whatever reason (yes yes, I know, he was 'up
to his ears in the Dark Arts'. Ever wonder why he felt it necassary to learn
them in the first place? No? Maybe you should--it would explain a lot I'm
sure--and not just 'well, he's just bad'). Snape was hounded by the
'popular' (and bullying) kids at school, simply because 'he exists', and so
forth. And yes, I had ALL of that in my childhood--and I was the 'quiet
mouse in the corner', unlike Snape. I was just the convienient target
because I was oddball out, and my mother had a BAD rep around
town...therefore, I was fair game...(Incidently, 'fair game' included things
like having fist-sized rocks thrown at me once they had me cornered....^^;).
So yes, I do empathize with the old Snark...I see a flip side to myself that
could have been...just as I see what Harry is going through, and know the
danger he's playing at by wallowing in self-pity and misplaced blame---there
was a time I stood at that juncture of life myself, and had to make the
decision...

Snape appearently had a very lonely, unhappy life that did not change once
he got to Hogwarts, unlike, say, Pettigrew, who James and Sirius let him
follow them around like a pitiful stray (Why Pettigrew the psychophant, who
repaid them later with betrayal, instead of Severus...who at least might
have stood on equal ground with them? Or perhaps that was the very reason
why not--he didn't want a subservient role in James' little gang, didn't
want to be the one his 'friends' laughed at...)...also UNLIKE with Harry,
who suddenly gained real friends, an adoptive family, a fatherly type to
guide him (More than one if you include Lupin, Sirius, even the 'real' Moody
to some degree), --in short, Harry got an entire support structure to fall
back on. And he was young enough at the time to learn from that and escape
the sour, bitter way of looking at things that Snape did not manage in his
own youth...

Like Harry, the difference for me is that I had someone to drag me out of
hating the world while I was still young enough to learn that life, and
people, did NOT have to be 'that way'. By the same token, I was old enough
to realize what I had escaped, both in regards to my situation, and what I
could have become if I had stayed with my mother. So, I feel far more sorry
for Snape than I ever will for Harry, even though Snape 'grew up' to be a
hateful adult. Quite frankly, of the two, he got the shorter end of the
stick, and still is getting it. I would be disagreable too in that
situation...

Again, to make it clear, it's  not a bad thing to empathize with Harry (and
yes, I do empathize with him. But I also expect him to 'get better' and find
a way not to become what he hates seeing in Snape (Hatred, blaming others,
projected pain, etc))...

By the same token, all of the characters, even though they may not be the
main character, have a lot of interesting, and valid, things about them that
deserve to be explored (and respected), even if it's only through Harry's
limited eyes. I have never been satisfied with empathizing with 'just' the
hero--no matter how down trodden, lost, or beat up he may feel or truly be.
The author almost always 'rescues' his/her creation from whatever dreadful
fate the hero might otherwise suffer--and I expect Harry's fate will be no
different in Rowling's capable hands, no matter what trails and tribulations
she chooses to put him through before the end of the series (especially if
she does not want to be lynch-mobbed by her fans for
killing/destroying/making-him-evil Harry). So I do indeed tend to find as
much interest, if not more, in the people around the main hero. Without
them, he will have nothing to strive for, nothing to learn, nothing that
will make him grow beyond his current self, and there certainly will be no
comparison between said hero and the world around him. In short, the story
becomes a monologue...with a very one-sided POV of everything that's going
on. To me, the hero is boring without something to measure him by, and
compare him to. I don't need to be told he'll probably make it out the other
end, bruised and scarred, maybe, but still the hero. He usually does. But
what about the people around him? What do they learn, what do they gain, or
loose? They live in that world too...and they are just as interesting and
deserving of some sort of respect as the hero is.


{Alla}

Yes, yes, I know that we are not talking about real people here. :o)

Now, Snape is third on my list of favourites, but if Harry gets to vent some
of his frustration at him, I would only welcome such scene in the books.

{Anne}

I wouldn't---Voldy and his group are enough in terms of hatred and 'venting'
at people, I think, without the hero and allies resorting to the same
treatement of each other (I completely lost my liking for Sirius after the
Pensieve scene--and he was my favorite until then--especially after
realizing that he STILL insisted on acting the same towards Snape in the
present time. Snape was not the only one who needed to 'grow up' in that
book...and being a 'good guy', I would have expected it from Sirius much
sooner than from Snape--especially since he took such great pride in 'being
above' Snape in nature and principles. My reaction to that is "Put your
money where your mouth is, please...", and Sirius failed miserably.).

Rowling has already made it quite clear what happens when friends and allies
start in on each other--people suffer and/or die as a result. Horribly,
tragically, and usually senselessly (except maybe in terms of helping the
plot along). It may give some readers a sense of vindictive riteousness to
see Snape 'get his own' from Harry, but to me, that would lower Harry in my
eyes forever, and leave a very bad taste in my mouth. Taking Severus down a
peg or  ten isn't necassary...he's likely to pay in some horrible way for
his past crimes without Harry's help before the end of the series. I don't
expect Harry to be Ghandhi, but I do expect him to eventually get rid of the
idea that he needs to 'hate' and 'judge' others, especially just to make
himself feel better about something that happened. He's fifteen going on
sixteen now--he's getting old enough to learn that lesson...he's not an
'innocent' anymore, and hasn't been for a long time....not with the life
he's had so far.

{Alla}

I guess we are talking about degrees here.

{Anne}

*Raises eyebrow as she thinks about an earlier coversation* Perhaps we
are...^^;

{Alla}

Because that although I don't want the books to mirror the reality
completely, I want the emotions and human relationships resemble the reality
close enough.

I believe that it is INCREDIBLY UNFAIR to expect that Harry will be better
than Snape at 15. It is just does not happen in reality and I don't want it
to be otherwise.

{Anne}

Actaully, yes it does happen, and no it isn't unfair to expect it from a
fifteen, soon to be sixteen, year old boy---that's when I started dragging
myself out of behaiving/thinking/feeling  as badly as the people who had
hurt me. I started taking responsibilty for myself and my actions and quit
blaming other people for them, or expecting retribution for whatever
percieved hurts I had suffered at their hands. I am neither a 'hero', nor as
'talented', 'smart', or 'powerful' as Harry is made out to be. I was a
'normal', if emotionally scarred, teenager (just like Harry)....and quite
frankly, if I could manage it in my teen years, 'messed up' as I was by my
own experinces with abuse...then a hero in a book should be able to...he is,
after all, by his very nature, 'better' than me...

I do think it unfair to NOT expect him to aim for higher ideals...especially
when they are likely to shape not only his future, but the WW's, by his
actions (Which will be governed by his ideals--just like any person's are).
I don't expect him to 'get it' suddenly, any more than I would expect Snape
to suddenly change *his* tune over night...but I DO expect Harry to
essentially, 'get over it' at some point and concentrate on higher goals. He
can't wallow in self-pity forever--and he only has two years (books) left to
quit wallowing before his story is done if Rowling holds to her promise...

Also, Harry, like any hero of a story, is an ideal that young readers will
look to for ages to come, since he is the 'good guy' fighting against the
'bad guys'. If he CAN'T get over it, then real, live kids who identify with
him will think it is indeed okay to be vengeful and vindictive towards
others, that its okay to hold onto hate even though all it does is poison
what you will see, do, and hear from and to others--a nasty cycle that will
only perpetuate itself. Don't we have enough of that mind set in
entertainment (Not to mention reality) already?

{Alla}

Yes, but sometimes it is unrealistic, right? Snape still is not over his.

{Anne}

No, he isn't over it--you are correct in that. By the same token however, he
never had what Harry has in regards to people who love and care about him,
as far as we can tell...he has a lot more to dig out of emotionally than
Harry, even when including the whole "The Boy who Lived/The Boy of the
Prophecy" thing...Harry has people to hold his hand and keep him sane and on
'the Right Path' if he bothers to listen to them and learn....but I don't
see the same support structure being set up for Snape at any time, past,
present, or future. So, where did Snape learn to 'get over it' then?...when
did he have the chance to? Even grown-ups need outside help in order to get
over whatever hurts they harbor, sometimes even more so than children,
because they've lived with the scars so much longer. At least Harry HAS that
support to fall back on already...and it doesnt look like it will go away
any time soon...not unless Voldy manages to kill everyone BUT Harry (not
likely)...Harry will never be alone...even when he thinks he is. All he'll
have to do is be reminded of that fact...and accept it when he is reminded.

Harry is the hero of the series--I never had doubts in regard to that, just
as I will never doubt that he will remain so through-out all of them. By the
same token, I believe our young hero has a LOT more growing, and growing up,
to do, and that is actually one of the main themes of the books--learning to
grow and grow up. Learning to become the best person you can become...and to
avoid becoming like those people that are not at thier best. I believe
Rowling will continue to put him through hell as it were, and make him, and
the readers through him, confront, in some way, all of these issues--whether
by taking his control away from him in some manner and making him act 'on
the other side' for a time...or by him finally getting his own mind, heart
and soul straightened out and realizing that he doesn't want to repeat the
same mistakes his father, Sirius, Snape or any other adult has made that has
screwed up so much. Or perhaps both.

No, Rowling will not let our hero fall.. of that I am certain...but I do
suspect she will let him dangle over that edge for a bit.

That is, after all, a part of growing...learning..and becoming both an adult
AND a hero.

Anne
(Silverthorne)