The Second Voldemort War, Stage II

[annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 91069

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...>
wrote:
> Neri: 
> Can Harry steal information from LV's mind, and how would he 
> know if it is genuine or a ruse?

Carol:
> I don't think either can steal information, or ideas, from the other.

Annemehr:
I believe Carol is right.  Voldemort never read that the headquarters
of the Order of the Phoenix is located at Number Twelve, Grimmauld
Place, did he?  He never knew that Sirius was the one person Harry
would do anything for, either, until Kreacher spilled the beans.  He
couldn't tell that Harry had no idea that there was a prophecy.

So why was Dumbledore so insistent on keeping secrets from Harry
(except for the all-important location of the Order's HQ)?  Why
couldn't he have had McGonagall tell Harry just enough to calm him a
bit?  Did he fear that searching Harry's mind from a distance was a
skill that Voldemort might have learned before too long?

Harry seemed to see into Voldemort's mind at times when Voldemort was
concentrating on something important, when he was intent on something.
 If Dumbledore had found some way of easing some of Harry's concerns,
wouldn't that have made it that much *harder* for Voldemort to access
Harry's mind?

Either there's more behind Dumbledore's decisions than we know, or
this scar connection is unique to even his experience and everyone is
learning on the fly, including Dumbledore and the readers.

And now we come to the part where I will quibble!

Carol:
> BTW, there was nothing wrong with Snape's teaching methods. <snip>
> It's Harry who resisted Snape because he didn't trust him; Harry who
> refused to clear his mind or calm himself; Harry who wanted to
> continue dreaming about the passage in the MoM; Harry who looked in
> the Pensieve, violating Snape's privacy to satisfy his own curiosity.

Harry has been accused of never practicing Occlumency so often on this
list you'd think it was canon, so I'm always ready to jump in and
quote a bit of OoP!

Perhaps there was nothing wrong with Snape's method during the
Occlumency lessons themselves.  However, Snape *sabotaged* the
Occlumency lessons during Potions lessons by making it impossible for
Harry to ever have a potion sample graded.  Maybe Snape's intent was
not to undermine the Occlumency lessons but rather to have a little
fun at Harry's expense, but undermine the lessons he did.  

Besides, I'm sure Harry tried harder than you give him credit for.  I
don't remember any canon evidence that Harry resisted Snape because he
didn't trust him, but I do know of evidence that Harry did try, at
least sometimes, to clear his mind.  It is true that he never overcame
his strong curiousity about the passage, and I give you the point
about the pensieve one hundred per cent.

To support my arguments about Snape's sabotage and Harry's attempts to
practice, I'll quote parts of my message #88063:

------------------------------------------
In [OoP] ch. 25, beginning on p. 553 (US):

"In fact Harry would have given a great deal to be making as much
progress at Occlumency as Neville was making during D.A. meetings.
<snip>
[skip several paragraphs to p. 554]
'I am working!' said Harry, nettled. 'You try it sometime, Snape
trying to get inside your head, it's not a bundle of laughs, you know!'"

So Harry says he's working at it, and there is no indication that he's
lying, no feelings of guilt that he hasn't tried.<snip>

Then, ch. 26 (p. 577 US):

"After a few minutes, however, he remembered that he was supposed to
be emptying his mind of all emotions before he slept, as Snape kept
instructing him at the end of every Occlumency lesson.

He tried for a moment or two, but the thought of Snape on top of
memories of Umbridge merely increased his sense of grumbling
resentment, and he found himself focusing instead on how much he
loathed the pair of them...."<snip>

Finally, in ch.28 (p. 636 US), just before Harry explores Snape's
pensieve:

"Harry spent the whole of the next day dreading what Snape was going
to say if he found out how much farther into the Department of
Mysteries he had penetrated during his last dream. With a surge of
guilt he realized that he had not practiced Occlumency once since
their last lesson: There had been too much going on since Dumbledore
had left. He was sure he would not have been able to empty his mind
even if he had tried. He doubted, however, whether Snape would accept
that excuse....

He attempted a little last-minute practice during classes that day,
but it was no good, Hermione kept asking him what was wrong whenever
he fell silent trying to rid himself of all thought and emotion and,
after all, the best moment to empty his brain was not while teachers
were firing review questions at the class."

I assert that the first paragraph of this quote implies that Harry had
been trying to practice Occlumency *before* the previous lesson.
<snip>
---------------------------------------------
  
Carol:
> Harry needs to
> learn to trust Snape, and now that he knows why occlumency is
> necessary, he could probably learn it from him. Unfortunately that
> won't happen because *Harry* has shown himself to be untrustworthy and
> Snape will refuse to teach him.

Annemehr:
Harry will probably need to learn to trust Snape, at least in a wary
sort of way, but I say "good riddance" to Snape's Occlumency lessons
at this point.  My own personal feeling, of course!

Carol:
 So now it will probably have to be
> Dumbledore, who will have to use the same methods that Snape did. If
> you want to learn occlumency, you have to learn to resist legilmency.
> There's no other way.

Annemehr:
You say that like it's a bad thing!  ;-)   Oooo, I wouldn't mind it if
Harry did a Protego while Dumbledore was using Legilimency on him!

Annemehr