How did Fudge/Snape know about Dementors attacking HP in PoA?

[dorapye]

No: HPFGUIDX 91217

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Partha Mukhopadhyay" 
<ahtrap at y...> wrote:
> My question is this:
> Near the end of PoA, how, if Snape was knocked out when the 
> dementors went after Harry, did he, and/or Fudge know that the 
> dementors had tried to Kiss Harry? 
> 
> Talking to Fudge outside the hospital ward, Snape says something 
along 
> the lines of not knowing what drove the dementors back, that by 
the 
> time he came to, they were retreating, which suggests that he 
didn't 
> actually see the dementor attempt to kiss Harry, and therefore 
that he 
> did not know the details of the attack, or was even aware of 
anything 
> that had happened. It's safe to say he also did not see the 
patronus, as 
> he would have recognized it for what it was, had he been awake to 
see 
> the initial dementor retreat.
> 
> Since no one else was around, how the heck did he or Fudge know 
that 
> that attack had occurred? Hermione and Harry at that point hadn't 
talked 
> to Fudge or Snape or Dumbledore, as they were just awakening in 
the 
> hospital wing. If I recall correctly, in the very brief meeting of 
Harry and 
> Fudge (pre-time turner action? I haven't read the book in months, 
this is 
> just something that's bugging me for no discernible reason today), 
there 
> is no mention of the attack. And in the subsequent action, there 
is no 
> meeting between Fudge and anyone who might have been able to tell 
> him that the dementors did indeed try to Kiss Potter - Sirius was 
> unconscious at the time of that attack (as one of the HPfGu 
threads I 
> looked at a few minutes ago about that specific attack posited, 
maybe 
> the Dementors went after Harry because he was the only one 
conscious 
> at the time), and Harry and Hermione don't meet up with Fudge 
until the 
> very end.
> 
> It's at that time that Fudge says something to the effect that he 
can't 
> believe the dementors would have tried to kiss an innocent boy.
> 
> So, overlarge post boiled down to one line: How did Cornelius 
Fudge 
> know about the attempted Dementor's Kiss on Harry Potter?
> 
> I recall no line in the book that would suggest that he could 
possibly 
> have know what had happened. The argument above points to no one 
> from whom he could have learned about the incident (possible 
exception 
> below)
> 
> Every time I've tried to bounce this off a friend who might care, 
I've 
> been met with an unsatisfying, "Dumbledore knows everything" 
> or "Fudge asked the Dementors about what had happened out there." 
I 
> can't argue with the prior other than to say that it's a weak 
copout, and I 
> find the latter unlikely, as it's necessary to assume that any 
particular 
> head dementor that Fudge would talk to would a) happen to know of 
> that particular action  by one of his "people", and b) actually 
share that 
> information with Fudge. 
> 
dorapye:
This is what I find so fascinating about this site - things you 
quite happily accept for years and then suddenly you are forced to 
re-examine and justify all your previous understanding....

So I went back to PoA, quite convinced that there *was* no problem 
here, after all, *I'd*  never seen one...but I agree, there is a 
smidgen of a 'what the..?' about this one.

So, I will attempt to explain, rationally, the way I have *chosen* 
to make sense of this, and you are quite welcome to ignore my, er, 
explanation, if it doesn't quite fit with the way you look at it all.

Chapter 21, Hemione's Secret
Before Harry and Hermione take their time-trip, Snape and Fudge are 
discussing Snape's rescue of the vhildren and Sirius:

"'What amazes me most is the behaviour of the Dementors...you've 
really no idea what made them retreat, Snape?
'No Minister. By the time I had come round they were headin back to 
their positions at the entrances...'"

So, from this we learn that Snape did NOT see Harry's patronus 
charge the dementors away, nor we he have known that the H, H na S 
were completely surrounded by the Dementors and at their mercy, 
though he might have been able to guess this, as all three were 
unconscious, without any apparent blows to the head!

Still, Snape would not be telling Fudge that the Dementors were 
going to kiss Harry, as he didn't see any evidence of this, and 
Snape, IMO, is not the type of man to offer wild suppositions as 
fact.

Chapter 22:
"'And the Dementors?' said Dumbledore. 'They'll be removed from the 
school, I trust?'
  'Oh yes, they'll have to go,' said Fudge, running his fingers 
disractedly through his hair. 'Never dreamed they'd attempt to 
administer the Kiss on an innocent boy...completely out of 
control...'..."

So, if Snape didn't see what the Dementors were up to, how did Fudge 
know? This is *your* question, of course.

Two options present themselves to me here, since I can't accept that 
Dementors can *speak* per se: 

EITHER:DD observed the Dementors on the edge of the lake and was 
about to intervene himself when Time-Travelling!Harry sent his 
Patronus across the lake and the Dementors moved off, allowing DD to 
see clearly that Harry had been singled out for a Kiss. DD informed 
Fudge.  It seems to be that, from DD's question above, he is 
*reminding* Fudge about something they have already discussed - that 
the Dementors are more dangerous to Harry and the other students 
than any threat posed by escaped Azkaban prisoners.  

The 'I trust' at the end of DD's question indicates he does not 
expect a refusal to his request.  This must be because he knows he 
has presented a strong case to Fudge in order to secure Fudge's 
agreement. This 'case' is echoed by Fudge in his acknowledgement 
that DD's request must indeed be seceded to - he mentions the 
Dementors attempting to Kiss Harry.  This strongly indicates that it 
was DD who informed Fudge that this had happened.

Is it possible that DD could have extracted the info from the 
Dementors (are they like The Borg - a collective consciousness, do 
you think?) perhaps using Legilimency or some other magical method?  
Still not convinced that Dementors can speak, so would have to be 
some form of 'mind reading'...When would DD have 'asked' 
(interrogated) the Dementors? Was there time?

OR: Fudge saw Harry and Hermione running towards Sirius and watched 
the Dementors surround all three, and saw the one Dementor swoop on 
Harry to perform the Kiss. 

Not quite sure where to take this second explanation, perhaps 
someone else, if interested, could do that instead.

I'm more in favour of the first explanation, though it does hark 
back to your "Dumbledore knows everything" one which has caused you 
so much frustration....sorry 'bout tha'

Anyway, hope this has helped in some ways, Partha
dorapye