[HPforGrownups] How did Fudge/Snape know about Dementors AND Chap. 12 Discussion

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 91245

<ahtrap at y...> wrote:

> Near the end of PoA, how, if Snape was knocked out when the 
> dementors went after Harry, did he, and/or Fudge know that the 
> dementors had tried to Kiss Harry? 
> 
> Talking to Fudge outside the hospital ward, Snape says something 
along 
> the lines of not knowing what drove the dementors back, that by 
the 
> time he came to, they were retreating, which suggests that he 
didn't 
> actually see the dementor attempt to kiss Harry, and therefore 
that he 
> did not know the details of the attack, or was even aware of 
anything 
> that had happened. 

As I read the scene, *before* H/H use the time-turner Snape and Fudge only question why the Dementors retreated.  Snape saw enough to know that it must have been the Dementors that caused the three (Harry, Hermione and Sirius) to become unconscious; Snape knows what a Dementor's effects are (he wants to be the DADA professor, after all) so he puts two and two together as only Snape can, but he can't figure out why they didn't finish the deed, because he didn't see the Patronus.

It's only *after* H/H return from their time-turner adventures that Fudge mentions administering the Kiss on an unconscious boy.  And this time, Fudge and Snape enter the hospital wing *with* Dumbledore, who we know has spoken with Sirius (he did so before sending H/H time-traveling).  Sirius was right next to Harry (Harry had just grabbed his arm) when the Dementor put his clammy hands around Harry's neck.  Thus, Sirius could have told Dumbledore what had happened.  Also, Dumbledore had time to tell Fudge what had happened without being omniscient at all.  He had time to tell Fudge, because Harry and Hermione had time to eat several chocolate bars before they returned.  And Dumbledore had the motivation to tell as well, in order to get Fudge to remove the Dementor guard from Hogwarts.


Dorapye also suggested:

OR: Fudge saw Harry and Hermione running towards Sirius and watched 
the Dementors surround all three, and saw the one Dementor swoop on 
Harry to perform the Kiss.
 
Debbie:

While I think the simplest explanation is the most likely, I think this is more likely than Dumbledore being omniscient.  I believe that Fudge knows Sirius is innocent -- he tells the other professors in The Three Broomsticks that "we" modified the memories of the Muggle witnesses -- and that he used the capture of Sirius as a springboard for his own political advancement.  Why else would he be in such a hurry to administer the Kiss to Sirius?

And in this scene, when Harry yells out that Pettigrew faked his own death, Fudge responds with "a small smile on his face" and proceeds to undermine Harry's credibility.  It's the same smile -- described as "curious" and "strange" -- that he wears in GoF in "The Parting of the Ways" when he tries to discredit Harry's assertion that Voldemort has returned.  If Fudge knows the truth, he'd want to take great pains to suppress it now that he has the opportunity to get rid of Harry once and for all.

Jen Reese raised more Fudge questions in the OOP Ch. 12 discussion:

You know, after re-reading this chapter, it surprises 
me Umbridge and Fudge didn't target Harry from the beginning to get 
to Dumbledore. Why did they want Harry out of Hogwarts, knowing 
their strategy would be to undermine DD over the course of the year? 
Divide and conquer, I guess, but they obviously don't view Harry as 
the threat, only Dumbeldore (so again, why get Harry out of 
Hogwarts?). Oh, unless they *are* targeting Harry to get to 
Dumbledore by staging the courtroom drama. It doesn't seem staged 
though, and Fudge didn't appear to get anything from the proceedings.

Debbie:

As I see it, the hearing was one more attack in the war against Harry's reputation.  Fudge needed to discredit him in order to maintain his position that Voldemort had not returned.  After Umbridge conveniently staged the Dementor attack, Fudge took over the hearing process.  I've always assumed that he turned it into a full Wizengamot proceeding because he perceived Amelia Bones as too sympathetic, and that he changed the time of the hearing with the intent of keeping Dumbledore from acting as Harry's advocate at the hearing.  Thus, while I believe Fudge attempted to orchestrate the hearing, the presence of Dumbledore (as well as Amelia Bones) kept that from happening.

So, in short, I don't think Fudge was using Harry to get to Dumbledore.  At least at the hearing. He's got plenty of reason to get Harry as well as Dumbledore, since both are espousing truths Fudge wants everyone to believe are the ludicrous ideas of addled old men and criminally inclined young boys.

Debbie
who loved Naama's post on Harry the martyr


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