The tragedy of Ron

[Aesha Williams]

No: HPFGUIDX 91410

Arya posted: 

Did you miss the introduction of the Imperius Curse in GoF?  I think 
it's quite clear how a chracter weakness such as a tenfdency to feel 
inferior, resent his family's poverty ("Why is everything I owe 
rubbish?!") and to see his best friend as a rival who appears to be 
chramed to have everything Ron has not might lead to this weakness of 
Ron's to be used against him.  WE all have weaknesses and just like 
Harry's weakness for saving people and heroics was used against him in 
OotP, I think we will see Ron's weaknesses turned against him.   Of 
course you'd like to see him overcome this, but, only time will tell.  
Watching a character fight the temptations of his own weaknesses is the 
most basic of epic storylines.  I'd bet a thousand galleons we'll see 
it in 6 or 7.

Aesha:
    I don't know if I consider it a 'weakness' that Ron wishes at times that his family had better things. I wish I had more money, but I don't think I'm weak because I wish for it. I don't know if I remember seeing Ron really 'jealous' of Harry... the only thing I can really think of is in GoF, when they weren't speaking- I do think that was fueled by a combination of jealousy and being upset because he thought Harry lied to him. Other than that, I can't really think of a time when I would say Ron was jealous. I don't think that by him saying 'why is everything I own rubbish' that he's at the same time saying he's jealous of Harry. 
    Also, I'm not sure how the imperius works. Is it a kind of brainwashing? Or are you conscious at the time that you're performing certain actions against your will? I don't know... how to say what I'd like. Are we saying that Harry has no (or very few) weaknesses, because he can throw off the curse? (They were imperio-d, right?) Does the imperio work only on people who are 'weak', or is it that it can only be thrown off by those who have some special gift or power? Also, I don't think that if Ron were jealous of Harry that that would effect how he would act under imperio- I think that if Ron had a weakness for chocolate cake, and it was weakness that made one especially susceptable to the curse, that he could be 'programmed' (for lack of a better word) to do anything that the person who was controlling him wanted him to do.

Arya:

Er, but he does NOT try very hard at all.  Percy obviously had ambtion 
in spades.  Even Fred and George had an unquenchable entrepreneurial 
spirit.  Ron, however, doesn't want to take notes in class, he doesn't 
want to do his own homework (he'd rather copy from Hermione) and he'd 
much rather play a game than study.  I'd say he doesn't try very hard 
at all to outdo his family and it's even worse it seems because he has 
Harry and Hermione beside him which means he's very unlikely to 
outshine either of them in intellect.

Aesha:
    Well, I think I agree that Ron doesn't do anything in particular to try to outshine his brothers, though he might like to be out from under their shadow once in a while. But you saying "... he has H&H beside him which means he's very unlikely to outshine either of them in intellect" bothers me a bit. Of course we know that Hermione is a very bright girl, but she also spends an exorbitant amount of time studying and reading. And Harry seems to spend just about as much time as Ron taking notes in class. I guess what I'm saying is, we know that Hermione is smart, but have we been shown that Harry is of such a superior intellect to Ron? If you want to argue that Harry can do some spells that Ron can't- well, Harry was given special instruction in quite a few of those spells, several of which aren't taught to wizards of their age. On the contrary, I think we've been shown that Ron probably is smart, such as when he won the chess game, but it's just the fact that he (and Harry) doesn't apply himself to his studies that makes him a poor student, not the fact that he's just not smart enough.



 
    In Ron's recalling of the match (beginning of Ch 31) you never once 
hear him mention any of the other players for G-dor until he talks 
about the look on Cho's face when Ginny got the Snitch.  He wasn't a 
very gracious *team* member there while he gave only the most detailed 
accounts of *his* prowess in the air.  Reminded me an awful lot of his 
boastful (and exaggerated) recollections of the Second Task in GoF.

Aesha:
    Well, this doesn't bother me too much. I think the reason Ron talks so much about how well he did during the game is *because* he did well during the game. As you said in your post, he wasn't a great keeper, but this game he did a really good job. He was excited; after all his screwing up in previous games, he was able to do a great job in this most crucial of games. And he wasn't the reason the team lost this game; in fact, his improvement helped his team to win. I actually don't think his boasting is that unusual- I think there's probably lots of other athletes who have done the same.

----------------------
How many boys are in  Griffyndor in Harry and Ron's year? A lot. Ron is 
chosen because DD  didn't want Harry to do it. This means in DD's eyes 
Ron's maybe second  best, but second best in the eyes of the most 
powerful wizard in the  world? That is not bad. Ron is chosen because 
DD thinks he is just  as capable at being a prefect as Harry would have 
been. Ron is his  replacement in DD's eyes. Wouldn't that fill you with 
confidence?
----------

Second, the definition of "second-best" means that one is not 'just as 
capable' as the other.  And no, knowing I was a sloppy-secoind choice 
and "replacement" would not fill in my confidence especially when it's 
known that I'm the best friend of the first choice.  Look at the other 
choices--Seamus--DD may not have wanted to risk Seamus having authority 
over Harry and rightfully so as Seamus was not a fan of Harry's.  
Dean--good friend with Seamus it's always appeared and we don't know a 
lot about him.  Neville--did not have the confidence or experience to 
subjectively evaluate actions to carry out an authrity figure role.  
Ron--best friends with Harry and Hermione and who DD could be assured 
would look to the reliable Hermione for being the "lead" prefect and 
also who would stand beside Harry at all costs.
The overall point is that Ron would NOT have been the Prefect if Harry 
didn't already have the burden of saving the freaking world.  Period.  
DD knew it, Shaklebolt knew it, Hermione knew it--and I personally 
threw my book across the room when I read Ron was the Prefect--it was 
not earned IMHO.


Aesha:
    Well, for one thing, Ron does not know that he was a second choice. As far as he knows, he was the only one wanted for Prefect. And you say that "Hermione knew it" (that Ron wouldn't have been chosen) but how did Hermione know? I kind of would have thought that Harry would have been chosen because he's Dumbledore's favorite. Hermione doesn't know why Ron was chosen instead of Harry. Again, as far as she knows, they felt Ron was the better choice. I feel as though you're also belittling Ron's contribution- if you feel that Harry was a more worthy choice, fine, but Dumbledore chose not to select him. He had to select someone as the other Prefect, and we've not seen anything extraordinary from Dean or Seamus (granted, it's from Harry's view, and he doesn't spend a lot of time with them- but still, they don't seem to be anything out of the ordinary). And of course Neville wouldn't have been chosen. If Ron was chosen because Dumbledore didn't want to burden Harry, I still don't think that Ron was chosen just because Harry and Hermione are his best friends. I do believe that Ron has a right to feel confidence because he's been chosen as Prefect- as the previous poster said, he's second best to one of the most powerful wizards alive, which isn't IMO sloppy seconds, it's something to be proud of. And as I said, I don't believe he was chosen just because of who his friends are- he should be proud that of the 4 leftover Gryffindors, he was the one chosen. As Kingsley Shacklebolt said, it sends the message that Dumbledore has faith in Ron's abilities.
    Even if he had chosen Seamus, I don't think he would have abused his power ni regards to Harry. Draco did it because he and Harry are enemies; I don't think Seamus considered Harry his enemy, I think he just found his story to be farfetched- and your parents and the media can have a great influence on you. 


Arya:
Ron didn't help in away for Harry to accomplish the 1st Tak ion 
GoF--where was he?  Oh yes, he was busy being jealous and believing 
Harry to be a liar.  I think your memory may be a tad selective.
Ron didn't help HArry survive the Dursleys for ten years.  Ron didn't 
help Harry face Quirrelmort (he was left behind on the chess board).  
Ron was caught behind a pile of rocks and didn't help Harry defeat a 
Basilisk and Tom Riddle.  Ron was in the hospital wing when Harry and 
Hermione Time Turned and saved Sirius and Buckbeak.  Ron wasn't with 
Harry when he had to be tied to a headstone and have his blood stolen 
to give rebirth to his parents' murderes.  Ron didn't help Harry to 
face done dozens of Death Eaters and one newly resurrected Voldemort.  
Ron didn't help Harry learn Occlumency as he should have and Ron was 
busy spouting off how he liked 'Uranus' and Accio'ing brains to help 
when Harry went after Bellatrix to avenge Sirius and ended up facing 
Voldemort--yet again.  Ron has never--not once--even seen 
Voldemort--none of Harry's friends have.  Only Dumbledore and Snape 
might be able to say they've seen Lord Thingy.

Aesha:
    The post that you're responding to here says : "All of Harry's accomplishments have been aided in  some way by Ron. And have been through too much to not trust each  other and to be jealous of each other." 
 Yes, Harry was alone in the room with Professor Quirrell, but of course Ron helped him get there! Harry wouldn't have gotten to the room without aid. We don't see that Harry is really any good at chess (and who knows, has he ever played? I can't see him and Dudley sitting down for a game). So he may not have gotten past that test without him. It was *because* Ron was 'left behind on the chess board', as you say (which makes it sound like he was just tired and decided to sit it out) that Harry was able to get to the Mirror and collect the stone. Ron was with Harry when they went into the forest to meet Aragog and learn more about the monster terrorizing the castle's inhabitants. Ron's malfunctioning wand- which causes the cave in- was certainly helpfu in keeping their memories from being erased.You say that Ron didn't help Harry learn Occlumency 'as he should have'- I agree that Ron was no help where Occlumency was concerned, but how the heck was he supposed to be? They didn't even know what Occlumency was. You talk about how ROn was out of it when Harry went after Bella- Ron was with him every step of the way, and helped as a guard when Harry had to see if Sirius was at home. Yes, Harry has been alone when he is facing Voldemort- but in most cases, without the help of his friends, he wouldn't have gotten to that point to begin with. I think that's an important point JKR is trying to make- he can't do it completely alone. The final steps may be his to take, but he needs his companions with him for the bulk of the journey. You did say that the one poster had a selective memory... but I think there's a couple things you've forgotten about, too. I don't think anyone was trying to say Ron is the equal hero- but he's been an important and integral part in our hero's journey. I don't think these posts ever said Ron was an equal hero, just that Ron was not a 'tragic figure' who is at any moment going to turn on Harry.

Okay, this post is way too long and I'm ending it here.  Basically, I 
just wanted to refute some overly selective arguments that were trying 
to support Ron as the equal hero to Harry.



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