Let the cat out of the Bag(man)

[arrowsmithbt]

No: HPFGUIDX 91563

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" <belijako at o...>
> wrote:
> 
> > I'd also like to comment on Catlady and annemehr's posts (#91445 and 
> > #91461) that I don't believe Bagman was in on Voldemort and Barty 
> > Crouch Jr's plan for the Triwizard Tournament. There is no evidence 
> > to suggest anyone else was in on the secret; just Voldie, Barty Jr 
> > and Wormtail. Remember, not even "faithful" DE's like Malfoy knew 
> > anything about what was going on till the mark burned on their arms, 
> > summoning them to Voldie's side. When Barty is under the influence of 
> > veritaserum, he doesn't mention Bagman with one word.
> <snip>
> 
> Annemehr:
> Good points, except that I think it would be possible for Bagman to
> have been involved without Crouch Jr.'s knowledge.
> 
> The main weakness of the idea that Bagman was involved is that
> Voldemort would have sense enough to let as few people as possible
> know of his return.  Wormtail was a given, as he was the one who came
> to him, and Crouch Jr. was ideal as being believed dead, extremely
> loyal, and intelligent.  Bagman has apparently been pretty dim all his
> life (so it's not an act), so it would be risky for Voldemort to
> reveal himself to him at this stage.
> 
> I did think the idea that Bagman helped set up the third task to
> involve the portkey would help solve a few difficulties, but on
> further reflection I think this role could have been accomplished by
> Barty Jr.  Dumbledore hired Alastor Moody primarily to help with
> security during the tournament, agreed?  So it would make sense that
> he would arrange for Moody to be in close contact with Crouch Sr. and
> Bagman to assess what the security risks might be.  This would give
> Crouch!Moody the opportunity he needed both to learn of and report the
> details of the tasks to Voldemort and also to suggest the use of a
> portkey to Bagman and Crouch Sr.
> 

Kneasy:
Just to raise a point: 
As organiser of the tasks it would be Bagman's job to carry the Cup into
the maze. But Crouch!Moody tells Harry that it was he who put the Portkey
spell on the Cup and presumably he was the last person to touch it before 
Harry did. So why were no-one's suspicions aroused by Crouch!Moody 
parading around with the Cup? 
Very odd.

It could be that Crouch!Moody had inducted Bagman to act as an unwitting
fall guy. He (Crouch!Moody) obviously thought that he was going to succeed
in his little plan to deliver Harry to Voldy. It was successful until Voldy let
him get away - if Harry hadn't come back no-one would know what the hell
had happened, but Bagman as organiser would have fallen under suspicion.
But if Crouch!Moody hadn't told Bagman his plans, questioning, even with
Veratiserum, would not produce answers.

So how does the idea that Bagman!Gofer, thinking that he's helping 
Crouch!Moody fix the competition (and making a few Galleons on the side)
but being cast as 'Most Wanted" grab you? Gred and Forge tell  Harry that
Bagman made a run for it "right after the third task.' It'd be interesting to
know if that was after Harry vanished but before Harry returned. If it was
then maybe he was smart enough to see that he had been set up.
This is becoming satisfactorily devious.

annemehr:
> I just wish we knew more about the use of portkeys at Hogwarts.  Is it
> safe to deduce there must be some method of preventing their use into
> and out of the grounds?  I think we can deduce that the Atrium is the
> only place to apparate, floo, and maybe portkey into and out of the
> MoM, but the information we have for Hogwarts is much less clear.

Kneasy:
True.
Both times that we know about DD set up a Portkey arrival /departure in 
his study. (To get the crowd to  Grimmauld Place when Arthur was
attacked and to get back after the MoM fight.)
Then there was the Cup. I have problems with the idea that DD knowingly
allowed someone to spell the Cup. What excuse could the person give?
Everything was set up for a grand celebration at Hogwarts when the winner
was declared. Why on Earth should DD agree with making the winner vanish
at the moment of victory? 
This would mean that a Portkey can be set up without DD's knowledge or
approval.
One question it would be nice to have the answer to is - how did the
Examiners in OoP arrive at Hogwarts? Floo, Thestral or Portkey? If it
was the latter and at a time when DD wasn't around....