[HPforGrownups] Re: Traditional Vampirism

[Campbell, Anne-TMC-Rcvg]

No: HPFGUIDX 88809

 {Pippin}
 
 Hmmm....Stoker was a pretty cosmopolitan fellow. He certainly seems to have drawn on the Jewish legend of the  Lilit for his female vampires. Like her, they  are creatures of night, drink blood, are seducers, prey on children and can be repelled by religious symbols. 
 
{Anne}
 
Odd....I have never seen a mention of specifically female vampires at all in the HP books, including the suppliments. Again, a source paragraph (or several) would be nice....The only mention I've seen of enticing non-humans (Human like female creatures) Are the Veela--something again different from the vampire.
 
As for Bram being "Cosmopolitan"....well, you can be that and still not be well read....conversely, you can also be well read and not use the references.


 {Pippin}
 
 But then the Slavic vampire legend itself is supposed to owe something to the Lilit, so you could say that Stoker was returning to original sources. <g>

 
{Anne} 
 
That particular 'fact' I have never come across in any of the academic books I read about Bram, or the Dracula legends. Catholicism (which has no mention at all of Lilith in thier books) was predominent in the Slavic areas, not Judaism, so I still cast a wary eye on that assumption.  Not to mention that his source materail was from the folklore--and the common folk that knew it, through a friend that had returned from the Slavic regions, relating stories of the Vampires there. I don't have the book with me, but I can certainly quote my source stating that once I have gotten home once more...until then, however...
 
I must confess that any claim that Lilith was a vampire in myth (since we are talking vampires here) has always been a suspect claim to me (and an alteration in modern times of what the original texts said about her in order to classify her in with vampires). In fact, her 'association' with vamps that I know of stemmed from three sources---The Golden Dawn, started by Aliester Crowley and friends, a few 'pop' references in 'pagan' and 'new age' books that 'claim' to know the truth behind such things as Vampirism (Usually found in the back corner of the back shelf of most used book stores, tucked in amoung the "My Father was an Alien" books.), and such gaming systems as Vampire: The Masquerade. Hardly convincing for me...
 
However, I do have other sources that define Lilith--and not one mention of a vampire can be found, although she does share quite a few traits of the Succubi....
 
The most doubtful source, simply because it was written from a modern Pagan POV is first (I paraphrased a lot of the information since it would take much too long to type all of it out):
 
****From the "Goddess Oracle" Author: Amy Sophia Marashinsky....American Softback 1997 Ed. Pg. 108:
 
According to her, Lilith was originally the Sumerian Queen of Heaven (AKA: Goddess) who predated the Goddess Inanna. When the Hebrew religion overtook that area, Lilith was rewritten into the holy books as Adam's fiesty first wife, who refused to allow him to dominate in the bedroom, instead insisting on equality between them. When Adam rebuked the concept, she departed and was then written ever after as a Demon in the Judiac myths.
 
 
****Next, From "When God was a Woman" Author: Merlin Stone. Aermican Hardback 1976 Ed. Pgs 158-159 and 195
 
Here, Lilith is first traced as being mentioned in a scrap of Sumerian text. She was a (real) young woman associated with the Temple of Inanna, and was identified as "The Hand of Innana". Appearently, it was her job to go out into the city and find young men to bring back to the temple. Incidently, the rites of Inanna, a sexual cult, included having sex in the temple--probably what the young men were being retrieved for.
 
She goes on to again relate Lilith's place as Adam's wife in the Jewsish holy books, and then her conversion again, as a demon, once she refused Adam's dominence. As a demonic entity, she would go about looking for 'spoiled sperm" which she would then gather and use to make her own demonic children with. 
 
She also mentions an association with the Kabbalah, in which Lilith is "presented as the symbol of evil, the female devil" and notes (Through G. Scholem) that "Lilith, the Queen of Demons, or the demons of her retinue, do thier best to provoke men to sexual acts without benefit of a woman, thier aim being to make themselves bodies from the lost seed."
 
****The third source I have thus far is from "A Dictionary of Angels" written by Gustav Davidson. The book I have is a 1996 reprint of the 1967 works.. Softcover edition, pages 174-175.
 
He states she originated in the Jewish texts, and says she was a "Female demon, enemy of infants, Bride of Sammael (One of the varitaions of Satan)". Again, she is linked as Adam's wife, and according to the book "The Book of Adam and Eve" (by Rabbi Eliezer), she bore 100 children to Adam a day *ouch*
 
He also links her in Leviticus 19a--in where she is described, essentially, as a fiery tempered woman who remained with Adam until Eve arrived, and then left for the 'cities of the sea coast and where to this day she continues to try and ensnare mankind" 
 
She is noted as the first Temptress.
 
Another of Gustav's notes on Lilith refers back to the Kabalah once again, where he links her as "The Demon of Friday", although he acknowledges that this particular version of her appears to have started up in the middle ages. He does acknowledge that that incarnation was linked to the Mesopatamian demons known as the 'Lili'.
 
He goes on for another half page to list her semen collecting habits and the like but does not once link her to vamprism.....
 
 
The fourth source I had readily available, does indeed list Lilith as one of the first Vampires. Sadly....it is "The Book of Nod"--a supplimentary gaming book for the White Wolf system--specifically for the Vampire: Masquerade series. Hardly a good arguement for Lilith as a vamp in true folklore. However, I can list the pages she is mentioned in....it's actually a fun read...;)
 
"The Book of Nod" Written by Sam Chupp amd Andrew Groenburg. 1993 First Ed. softback. Refer to pgs. 14-15, 26-29, 37-39 and so on....
 
 
Anne


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]