Time travel : what does Ron know

[nkafkafi]

No: HPFGUIDX 88983

> Olivier :
> 
> Wow, an impressive series of great arguments back and forth !

Neri: 
thanks!

> Olivier :
> I will try to give what seems to me to be a plausible version of 
Knight2King. 
> 
> So, let us review the hypothesis. Around the end of book seven, Ron 
travels willingly 
> or not 130 years back in the past. He discovers he has to 
impersonate Dumbledore.

Neri notes:
Not impersonate DD, but *be* DD. It is very easy to forget that time 
travel is for real.
 
> Olivier : 
> Now the key point here in my opinion is that if Ron had to do that, 
it was probably 
> quite unexcpected. He has not prepared a slightest bit. All he 
knows about time-
> travel is that it is very dangerous to change the past. So he acts 
as best as he can to 
> mimick Dumbledore's life. 

Neri answers:
Ron *is* DD, the greatest wizard of our time. He has more than 60 
years until Tom Riddle's time to be born. During that time, he has 
the power, the motive and the experience to become the world's 
greatest expert on time travel and past changing. He knows LV is Tom 
Riddle (DD himself told him in CoS) and when Tom is to be born. Does 
he prevent Tom from ever being born, or does he sits idly and watch? 
I have a problem with each of these alternatives. 

> Olivier : 
He knows from the present that he must work with Flamel, 
> that he must defeat Gindelwald and so on. 
> 
> But there are also a lot of things he does not know. And that is 
the solution to many 
> problems of Ron!DD.

Neri again: 
Ron does know that Lily and James died because they trusted Wormtail. 
Does Ron!DD warns them or not? Will he have to confess to Harry by 
the end of book 7 that he is responsible not only for Sirius' death, 
but also for the death of Harry's parents? You might say that Ron!DD 
knowingly scarified Lily and James in order to make the prophesy 
true. That's still sounds a horrible dilemma to me. But couldn't he, 
at the very least, find a way to save the Longbottoms from being 
tortured to insanity by Bellatrix et al? In OotP JKR made sure Ron 
knows about this too.

> 
> Ron does not know what the prophecy says (before he hears it from 
Trelawney) nor 
> when Harry learned about it. Therefore, his speech at the end of 
OoP is not a lie, Ron!
> DD does not know when he has to tell Harry about the prophecy and 
that is a terrible 
> dilemma for him. 
> 
> Now another problem, pointed by Neri
> 
> > Neri responds:
> > Imagine that by the end of Book 7 it turns out that DD is Ron, 
and 
> > Harry asks him: "why didn't you tell me that if I'll go to the 
DoM 
> > Sirius will die?". What would DD answer? "Because I believed you 
> > would have gone anyway"? I wouldn't have accepted such an answer 
if I 
> > was Harry, and I won't accept it as a reader.
>
> Olivier :  
> I think Ron!DD might have tried everything he could to save Sirius. 
But we have to 
> remember that Ron!DD is not omniscient, all he recalls from his 
past, is that in his 
> fifth year LV tried to lure Harry inside the DoM and that he had to 
prevent that. Well 
> Canon!DD does exactly that : he tries as hard as he can to prevent 
Harry to fall under 
> the influence of LV, and when he realizes Harry has gone, he goes 
there as quick as 
> he can and almost manages to save Sirius.

Neri: 
He could have been there before, waiting with all the Order members 
to back him up, and catch the DEs before Harry et al ever get to the 
DoM. 

> Olivier :  
> Why did he not say plain and simple "whatever happens Harry, do not 
go to the DoM !" 
> I think he even did better than that, after all, he cannot be sure 
Harry will be tempted 
> exactly by the same trap in this time-line (here I suppose that at 
least in Ron's mind, 
> it is possible to change the past). So he insisted again and again 
on the importance of 
> Occlumency. The only problem is that Harry lied. In OoP, Ron 
believes that Harry has 
> kept on working Occlumency, hence so does Ron!DD, and despite all 
his efforts, he 
> failed.

Neri <picking up that giant blue tome> answers:

OotP, p. 681 (US):

 Ron and Hermione had wanted to hear news of Sirius. As Harry had 
not confided in them the reason he had wanted to talk to Sirius in 
the first place, it had been hard to think of what to tell them; he 
had ended up saying, truthfully, that Sirius wanted Harry to resume 
Occlumency lessons. He had been regretting this ever since; Hermione 
would not let the subject drop and kept reverting to it when Harry 
least expected it.
    'You can't tell me you've stopped having funny dreams,' Hermione 
said now, 'because Ron told me you were muttering in your sleep again 
last night.'

OotP, p.734:
'You don't get it!' Harry shouted at her, 'I'm not having nightmares, 
I'm not just dreaming! What d'you think all the Occlumency was for, 
why d'you think Dumbledore wanted me prevented from seeing these 
things? Because they're REAL, Hermione — Sirius is trapped, I've seen 
him. Voldemort's got him, and no one else knows, and that means we're 
the only ones who can save him."

Same page, Ron is still present:
'But Harry, you've just said it,' said Hermione fiercely, 'Dumbledore 
wanted you to learn to shut these things out of your mind, if you'd 
done Occlumency properly you'd never have seen this — '
    'IF YOU THINK I'M JUST GOING TO ACT LIKE I HAVEN'T SEEN — '

And p. 771:
'Where do we go, then, Harry?' Ron asked.
    'I don't — ' Harry began. He swallowed. 'In the dreams I went 
through the door at the end of the corridor from the lifts into a 
dark room — that's this one — and then I went through another door 
into a room that kind of . . . glitters."

So Ron does know that Harry quitted the occlumency lessons, and that 
they completly failed to protect him. 

Ron also knows who was the DA sneak. Ron!DD could have prevented the 
event that caused him to flee Hogwarts and leave Harry alone at the 
most critical time. Or does he just sit and wait for it to happen?  

I humbly apologies, I really feel bad because I find it so damn easy 
to play the devil advocate here, while you are fighting an uphill 
battle. This most unfair situation happens because, as I tried to 
demonstrate in my original post, time travel is not like any other 
magical plot device. Getting time travel to work *and* getting a good 
plot out of it is extremely difficult, especially so late in the 
game. But we (and JKR) might still manage it.

> Olivier :  
> And this is why he is so sad at the end of OoP, Ron has failed 
significantly for the first 
> time since he has started being DD.
> 
> Now why is DD optimistic despite him being forced to relive 
everything without being 
> able to change anything ? In my opinion, Ron does not relive at 
all, Ron discovers, and 
> has a great time while at it. Besides, it could be that when Ron 
set out for the past, the 
> good side was taking a definite edge in the war, so he knows it is 
going to be hard, 
> but he also has high hopes.
> 
> Why didn't he stop Tom Riddle opening the Chamber ? I guess the 
answer to that is 
> the sheer cleverness of Tom and Ron's ethic. He cannot act against 
Tom without a 
> proof that he is going to turn to the dark side. And Tom is 
brilliant enough to attack 
> Myrtle before Ron spots him. But once Tom has revealed himself, Ron 
knows that his 
> great task is going to start, so he starts his watch (see Tom's 
account of that in CoS).
> 
> Only Tom outsmarts him again ("probably the most brilliant student" 
in the own 
> words of DD) and disappear, beginning his transformation into LV. 
> So in conclusion, I don't think there is a real implausibility to 
Knight2King. 
>

Neri again:
I think we are converging on the same solution from different 
directions. The problem is how to make Ron!DD know a lot, but still 
not know too much. What would you say to the Single Loop Feint with 
only a partial amnesia? Say, only 80% amnesia and you can pick the 
parts that Ron!DD does not remember:-) 

> Olivier :
> Let us see if that is the way JKR chose.
>

Neri:
I certainly agree with that!

 
Neri