Occlumency & Shield Charm - Short & Long

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 89384

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune"
<severelysigune at y...> wrote:
> ..., Harry casts a Shield Charm and the result is he gets to see 
> some of Snape's memories. What I find strange is that something like
> a simple (?) Shield Charm should permit Harry to get inside Snape's 
> mind. I think that is strangely in contradiction with the repeated 
> qualification of Snape as a superb Occlumens.
> 
> Even if Harry's Shield Charm made Snape's spell bounce off and 
> caused him to be hit by his own Legilimenting spell, it still seems 
> to me that it should be a piece of cake for Lord Thingy (an expert 
> Legilimens, better at it than Snape) to break into his sneaky ex-
> servant's mind. So can Snape really rely on this Occlumency business? 
> Or does anyone have an alternative explanation for what happened?
> 
> 
> Yours severely,
> 
> Sigune

bboy_mn:

Once again someone has given me an open invitation to expound at
length on one of my many theories. However, to save you the agony, I
will give you the short version as well as the long.

We must, I believe, make a distinction between the Ability of
Legilimency and the Spell of Legilimency, which, reasonable so, are
related but not necessarily the same thing. (see below for the long
winded version).

The SPELL causes a cascade of random thought to occur in the victim's
mind, random thought that can also be viewed by the caster of the
spell. Because this is a spell, it can easily be blocked by the
'Protego' Shield Charm. 

Remember that the Shield Charm causes the spell to rebound upon the
caster. I think Snape was caught totally off guard. Certainly he
expected Harry to be able, to some degree, to stop the cascade of
thought, but it never occurred to him that Harry would turn the spell
back against Snape. Once Snape go over being stunned, both physically
and mentally, he put a stop to it, and even, begrudgingly in his own
Snape like way, complimented Harry on the use of the Shield Charm.

Presumably, before meeting Voldemort or the Death Eaters, Snape has a
chance to mentally prepare himself, and focus his mind so he blocks
all attempts at being probed. The event with Harry simply cause him
off guard.

In addition, I think the spell is more powerful, but less useful. It
can force the thoughts to come, but the thoughts seem very random
making it very difficult to determine truth at that moment in time.

The GIFT or ABILITY of Legilimency, I speculate, is more a for of
intuitive Psychic ability; a form of Seer Divination. One has an
emaphathic sense of the other person's thoughts and feelings. I also
speculate that the abilitiy of Legilimency is less visual and more
emotional, and also, more realtime than the spell. 

Conversely the spell we see is much more visual and deals with
historical memories rather than 'in the moment' thoughts.

For what it's worth, since the Ability of Legilimency is a form of
Divination rather than a spell, I don't think the 'Protego' Shield
Charm can block it.

Does that help at all?

Just a thought.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

Now the extremely long version, compiled from previous posts.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .



"Morgan D."  wrote:
> 
> "Can anyone explain something to me?
> 
> "Snape says that Legilimency is much more subtle than merely mind-
> reading, but I'm afraid I've grasped as much of the subject as Harry 
> did. The way I understand it, if I were to cast Legilimency over, 
> say, our dear host Aberforth, right here in the Hog's Head, I'd get 
> to see images of his past, such as his improper dealings with his 
> goat, but none of you would see them. The spell wouldn't expose Abe's 
> mind to everyone around, but only for the one who cast the spell. 
> 
> "If that's the case, Legilimency is a sort of mind version of the 
> Summoning Charm. Like saying 'Accio memory!' Not an attack, in the 
> sense of hitting someone with something, but a theft. 
> 
> "During one of the lessons, Harry casts a Shield Charm -- 'Protego!' -
> - to defend himself of Snape's Legilimency, and the result is that 
> Harry ends up seeing images from Snape's mind. Or at least that seems 
> to be the case.
> 
> ..edited....
> 
> 
> Morgan D.


bboy_mn:

See my published works...

I'm going to repost a few things from the past that do a pretty good
job of reflecting my views on Legilimency.

In both sections, I have embedded some additional thoughts.

FROM-
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/72153

Legilimency takes two forms in the book. One is the gift or skill of
Legilimency and the other is the Legilimens charm.

It speculate that the Legilimens charm simply causes a cascade of
random memories to flash before the caster and his victim's eyes. I
could give you some interesting insight, but it's pretty random,
subject to interpretation, and not too good for determining specific
real-time immediate thoughts and intent.

The gift or skill of Legilimens, on the other hand, is as deep strong
psychic intuitive sense of a person's feelings, thoughts, and emotions
at the moment. If they are lying, you pick up on the sense of
insecurity, guilt, and worry that are in their mind, and the
associated feelings of fear in their emotions. Like the Legilimens
charm, with the intuitive gift you may also pick up some mental images
associated with a persons feelings at that momemnt. I further
speculate that, to some extent, the possessor of the gift may be able
to guide the nature of the thoughts and feelings coming from the
victim using magical intent.

Legilimency as a gift is a form of Divination or a psychic skill; in a
sense, the person with this gift is an intuitive Seer.

I suspect, although obviously I can't prove, that the Spell of
Legilimens is stronger on mental images and lesser on conveying
emotions, whereas, and equally speculative, the Gift of Legilimens is
much stronger on picking up emotions and lesser on mental images; I
don't say no mental images, just lesser relative to the spell

As a side note, there are all kinds of psychic Seers. Most Psychics
are intuitive psychics; they sense things. Others are visionary
Psychic; they divine through psychic visions. Still other's like
Trelawney are trance psychics. And of course, many other forms.

So being an intuitive senser or seer is a valid form of psychic
ability, and this is how I see Legilimency.


FROM-
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80177

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" <jwcpgh at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Legilimency takes two forms in the book. One is the Gift or Skill
> > of Legilimency and the other is the Legilimens charm.
> >
> > It speculate that the Legilimens charm simply causes a cascade of
> > random memories .... edited...
> >
> >
> > The gift or skill of Legilimens, on the other hand, is as deep
> > strong psychic intuitive sense of a persons feelings, thoughts,
> > and emotions at the moment. ....edited...
> >
> > Just a thought.
>

> Laura:
>
> Your theory is interesting and I'm willing to be convinced, but
> could you cite some canon to show which is which? ...edited...
>

bboy_mn:

I don't think it's necessary to cite the book to you if you have read
it. Although, I can and will do that if you really want me to.

We have two examples of types of Legilimency in the book which
demonstrate my theory. The first is Dumbledore's and other's
descriptions of the skill of Legilimency for detecting lies. Both
Voldemort and Dumbledore have this skill.

Then we have the Legilimency classes between Harry and Snape. The
examples of the Legilimens charm used in the classes don't seem to be
of much use for detecting lies. Snape casts the charm, the cascade of
random memories comes spilling out, and when Harry gets to a memory
that he doesn't want anyone to see, he forces the cascade to stop.
That is the only form that we see the Legilimen charm taking, and we
see it repeatedly.

Like I said, the charm could give you some insight, but the examples
we see seem too random to really determine Harry's thoughts, emotions,
and motivations at that given moment. Therefore, I conclude that some
general truth could be gathered, and attempts could be made to
reconstruct the viewed thoughts into something coherent, and thereby
hope to interpret it's meaning, but it all seems to random and
generalized to be used to determine if the words just spoken were true.

Note that when Harry cast the Protego Shield Charm we know that Harry
sees Snape's memories, but we get little or no sense that Harry feels
the emotions associated with those memories. It is upon this fact that
I base my belief that the Legilimens Spell is more visual than emotional.

However, we must also note that in both Harry and Snape's case, the
memories are old. Perhaps if the memories were newer and fresher, the
associated emotions would be stronger. 

Now the Gift or Skill of Legilimency can be used to interpret truth,
the book tells us this, therefore, I conclude the sensations, the
intuitive sense that the Legilimist divines must be more immediate and
must be more specific. I base all this not so much on text, although
the text strongly implies this, but on a logical conclusion regarding
what must occur to accomplish the task at hand.

We all have an intuitive sense to help us determine when people are
lying. We take our clues from many sources. A gifted Legilimist
abilities go far beyond common general intuition; it's not JUST a
suspicion or a hunch. As I said, a Legilimist, or Legilimizer, or
whatever you want to call him, is a Seer; someone gifted in a specific
form of Divination. Someone with a strong psychic sense. So the clues
that a Legilimist picks up go much much deeper that our common
suspicious muggle intuition. They are people who sense other people's
emotions and intent. In addition, in the process of detecting lies,
they may even be able to sense some degree of the truth.

We see the Legilimens charm repeatedly in the book, and it seems to be
just what I said it was. It forces a cascade of random memories, and
that doesn't seem at all effective in determining if someone is lying.

Since a Legilimist is able to detect lies, he must therefore be able
to see and feel more than a random cascade of memories. For me, the
logical conclusion is that the Legilimist has a deep strong intuitive
psychic sense of a persons emotions and intent at the moment the other
person is trying to perpetrate a lie.

One last reminder that this skill goes far far deeper than common
muggle intuition. Also, I accept that not only are emotions and intent
sensed, but there may also be some mental images that accompany this,
but I suspect they are specific to the moment and are more of a visual
intuitive sense than actual images pulled from the other persons mind.

I guess if intuitive psychic doesn't do it for you, you could look at
a Legilimist as a psychic empath. They have an empathic psychic
insight into the other person's thoughts, intent, and emotions, and
are therefore able to detect lies.

Regarding your comment about 'accio memories', I think that is a valid
illustration, but I don't think it is a good example. True, the
Legilimist is summoning thoughts, feelings, and memories from the
victim's mind, but because these are all intangible (not solid), I
don't think 'accio' would literally work. 

Legilimens is more of an 'event', the spell or the act causes an event
to occur. That event causes thoughts, feeling, and mental images to
form both in the mind of the Legilimist and the victim; in a crude
way, sort of like two people watching a television. In the Spell/Charm
event, both the Legilimist and the victim are well aware that the
cascade of thoughts has been initiated. However, in the more realtime
exercise of the ability to Legilimize, the event in not so obvious
because it is indeed more of a realtime event. It senses the immediate
realtime thoughts and emotions of the victim rather that calling up
old random memories. That, however, does not deny the ability of the
gifted Legilimist to will the mind probe to focus on past events. It
just implies that his intuition would give him insight into the
immediate feeling related to those event. Perhaps, daily news vs a
history book might be a good analogy.

As to the 'Protego' charm, this is a shield charm, it surrounds a
person with a shield that will cause all but the most powerful spells
to rebound upon the caster. Snape cast the Legilimens charm and it was
rebounded upon himself, just as any other spell would have. However,
my intuitive sense tells me that the act of Legilimens, as opposed to
the casting of the spell, would not have been blocked by this Shield
Charm.

Again, it's just a thought.

bboy_mn